“So in the pantheon of Catholic commentators and preachers, isn’t there a little room for the blunt?”

Being blunt is one thing. Telling people, “If your priest so much as MENTIONS the words ‘Earth Day’ in a homily, LEAVE and never darken the door of that parish again!1!1!” is over the top.

There are many contexts in which a priest mentioning Earth Day could be acceptable. For example, what if the priest in question uses his Easter homily to talk about the inappropriateness of the groups in question wishing to hijack Easter in favor of Earth Day, and inviting everyone to pray for their conversion? By Michael Voris’ standards, the entire congregation should get up and leave and skip the offertory to boot.

Moreover, if a priest is so idiotic as to devote an Easter homily to Earth Day, or any homily, for that matter (and doesn’t place it in the context of Catholic social justice teachings), leaving might not be the most prudent option. Perhaps the parishioners should stay and try to change the problem from within—writing to the bishop, talking politely to the priest about why such homilies may be inappropriate, etc.

Really, it’s a prudential judgment call that the parishioners in question should make for themselves, and some internet personality shouldn’t be advocating a blanket course of action based on such vague criteria.

So, in sum: bluntness can be good, but stupidity never is. (Note: I don’t think Voris is stupid. I do think his advice was stupid.)

JoAnna

Have you considered that Voris might have been using hyperbole to make a point?

Don’t forget where Jesus says *to the Apostles*, “O wicked and perverse generation, how long do I have to endure you?” (Mt 17:17).

I consider it unlikely, Pat. It doesn’t seem likely that he would give such advice in the first place if he didn’t intend for people to follow it; also, he hasn’t yet (so far as I am aware) said on RealCatholicTV or elsewhere that he was merely speaking in hyperbole and didn’t intend for people to literally leave their parishes at a mention of Earth Day.

I think Mr. Voris’ and other such styles are predominantly shocking only to those who do not hear the voice of orthodox Catholicism pronounced loudly and clearly from the pulpit, as some of us are luck to have had. I will suggest that this applies to most mass-going Catholics (given then 80% contraception rate): if your parish priest doesn’t talk about, say, abortion and/or contraception, say, once a year or so, then I’m going to generalize and suggest you probably aren’t getting the rest of the stuff either. Most of what the Church is supposed to preach is _necessarily_ controversial. We sinners don’t need as much help or formation on the easy stuff (don’t murder people, don’t covet your neighbor’s shiny new car) as we do on the harder stuff.

Thus, in addition to proffering an unpopular message, these are doing it in a style which most of the go-along-to-get-along types - which include also feminized men (subject to mollites) and wishy-washy pseudo-intellectuals - find is repugnant.

However, precisely that style is _not at all unfamiliar_ to the Church in history. You really have to read various Church Fathers and other Saints on the matters of controversy for their day. We are very simply not better than they were, and consequently, from a misguided (and, dare I say, arrogant) perspective of history, we should not dare judge them as somehow worse than we are. Their prudential judgment was fine on these matters, and so is Mr. Voris’.

As I mentioned in another response elsewhere, I don’t find myself in agreement with Mr. Voris - I find he agrees with me (but says it better than I might - and I’ve seen he’s actually easier on some things than I would be - again, in a matter of degree, not intent).

This shouldn’t be surprising: we are both of an age. We both gained solid theological training a bit later in our lives. We seem both strongly influenced (it is certainly so in my case, I suspect it is so in his) by the original writings of the Saints and not the synopses you get if you don’t read them directly. We did this despite not having received the faith transmitted to us in our youth from our local Church, but having had someone of more simple fidelity in our lives as a guide. We both went to decent seminaries (different ones), probably both got a strong grounding in Thomistic Aristotleanism (I think mine might have been stronger). We both seem to have made a special study of dogmatic theology, probably by the grace of God. We are both in Dioceses (also different ones) that have been eviscerated by heresy and we’ve both been subjected to the heteropraxis that derives from it - and in both of our situations, the same obtains more or less today, but I think we both see cause for hope in the seminarians. So, for me, it’s not at all surprising he has come to the same conclusions as I had already, and given that, I can do nothing but support his efforts, which seem both salutary, effective, and prudent.

Oh, and for people just joining the discussion, and not that familiar with Mr. Voris’s other work, he has more or less been clear on the sorts of things that break a parish from orthodoxy, has made the case why certain things are and should be unacceptable, and pretty much has a laundry list of ‘things that shouldn’t be’. This specific one is more like a “straw breaking the camel’s back” sort of thing, and I also say I agree with him. A priest listening to that list of n’ere-do-wells in such a way as to obscure the real reflection of the gospel of the Easter must, necessarily, be pretty far gone down the wrong path, and - especially if you are responsible for children - you probably have a duty to flee from it for the sake of the souls in your charge.

In a different era, I’d say report it to the VG and try to get a new priest, but we’re more mobile now and, knowing from experience several chanceries, I’d still report it to the VG (just in case there’s someone not asleep at the switch in the path) and go. My advice is find someone doing an EF mass, even if you go to the other ones - chances are, just as a statistical proposition if nothing else, those guys are going to be better.

If you don’t like what he says have a public debate.

Why not? I’m sure he would be happy to hear from you.

You are GOOD, Pat Archbold. Bravo! Reminding us of how Jesus and His cousin St. John spoke to the Pharisees is perfect. Being an ultra conservative Catholic, I like Michael Voris and I think he has more than “a little substance”. However, I said, “Ouch!” when Michael told us that our separated brethren are in danger of going to hell. Because there are way TOO many Liberal Catholics at this time, they need a HUGE WAKE-UP call. I’m definitely ready to hear lots of blunt, fire and brimstone, and “in your face-ness” from the pulpit. I’m tired of “put me to sleep” homilies.
Bruce and I have 5 children and 16 grandchildren. :)

Pat Archbold, any comment you have regarding my previous post would be welcomed.

There is a place for blunt language, but it must also be accompanied by a certain humility. We should not be afraid to speak the truth, so long as we do so in love. So much of apologetics today is not humble, is not loving. It presumes the worst intentions of everyone, rather than the best as we ought to. If a priest mentions Earth Day in his Easter homily, the proper Catholic response would be to listen in humility to someone who is speaking with the authority of Jesus Christ. The sort of person who would walk out is exactly the sort of person who needs to hear about stewardship of the environment. We are in a difficult position because our grandparents, who respected the authority of the priesthood, often saw that authority abused. We should never give up any part of the faith because a priest told us to, but we also should not pick and choose parishes lightly. When we speak the truth we do not need to be Ned Flanders, but neither should we arrogantly put forth wrong teaching and act as if those who disagree with us are stupid and terrible people.

There is only one problem : given his strong interest on the matter (cf. Caritas in Veritate and countless speeches, homilies, etc), it is not unlikely that Pope Benedict XVI will make offer a homily “on the topic greening the planet on Easter Sunday”. Should we, then, join Eastern Orthodox churches ?

Everything is contracepted now a days.  Even our homilies…..

I like Mr. Voris. And before people stating that he is an arrogant kind of guy - isn’t it judgmental? - they should consider whether in reality he is the opposite of that. After all, believing in what you say and saying it out loud shows someone who knees down to the truth. Once it is said, the feedback is possible and errors can be fixed. And he certainly knows that he exposes himself by doing like that, but maybe he doesn’t care about himself as much as he cares about the truth. And that takes some meekness and humbleness of heart.

Pat,

There is a reason that the same harsh quotes by Our Lord and some saints are seen over and again: They did not speak to people in this manner on a regular basis. If you were to look at all words spoken by Jesus, those that would seem hyperbolic pale in comparison to his use of thought provoking parables.

He is mainly singing to the choir.

I think that robust commentary, dialogue such as Fr. Corapi and Mr. Voris are welcome and often needed as long as the messenger isn’t hypocritical. Some others you may appreciate along this line are Bishop Sheen, St. John Vianny and St. Josemaria Escriva. Each bold and uncompromising yet with a certain meekness and humility.

Oh the humility of John the Baptist and Jesus!  Before we act as they in their speech to hypocrites, might we act as they in their humility?  Dying.  To self.  Actually being loving and Forgiving people when we say such things?  By the grace of God.  I have not seen one iota of sweetness from Voris.  Fr. Corapi, yes.  They should not be put in the same league.

I like Michael Voris’s way of getting his point across.  I think that many Catholics need to hear the message in a blunt manner because all too many parishes are so worried that people will stop coming and filling the collection basket if they hear that their contraception is a sin or that the our culture of death needs to be vigorously fought against.  Instead, we hear watered down, wishy washy messages that ignore the hard truth of right and wrong.  No wonder people don’t even know that contraception is a sin anymore, or that living together before marriage isn’t allowed either.

Mr. Archbold, it is obvious that you have only watched a “handful” of his videos.  He does a lot more than “just produce several videos a week talking about… faith, politics and culture.” Michael Voris and Real Catholic T.V. is the best of the best!  I encourage you to go on his premium website.  For $10 a month you will get REAL Catholicism.  His work is prolific.  I have been watching everyday since Oct. 2009 and I have yet to exhaust the programs on his site.  I have never heard any Catholic speak with such conviction including our priests and bishops. If you want to hear someone who is unapologetically Catholic and who is filled with fortitude, then check out his Vortex episode on YouTube site called From the Heart…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUoxe_7Vm-k&playnext=1&list=PL50525F7D67A60CD0

If you like this then you cannot imagine what treasures there are in store on their website…  realcatholictv.com .  Also check out St. Michael’s Media. I guarantee that it is the best $10 you will spend this month!

The comment about Ned Flanders was okaly-dokay-do and son of a gun didaly-on.

I am a Roman Catholic who came into adolescence in the late 1960’s.  I attended a Caholic boys’ school, and then a Jesuit university.  In the “Spirit Of Vatican II”, I was taught what I now know is the Modernist heresy by religious brothers and priests.  When I graduated from college I was exposed to this same Modernist heresy by diocesan priests.

All of these heretical statements were couched in the language of tolerance and “dialogue”.  When I finally started doing my own study of our Church’s Magisterium, I realized that I had been instructed in heresy.  Over the last forty years I have met religious brothers and sisters, and priests who have unwittingly brought the Catholic Church in the United States into the abyss that it finds itself in today.

I applaud Michael Voris because he speaks plainly and clearly.  Our Lord said He would vomit up the person who cannot say “yes” or “no”, but stays in the nebuluous area of relativity.  There is much more I could write about the heretical satements I have heard, and the heretical practices I have seen fostered at the parochial level.  But if I wrote several more chapters about those heterodox abuses; and I realize that it would more than likely bore most readers. Therefore I will not subject any of you to my experiences in the Modernist heresy.

“Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of ‘touching’ a man’s heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it.”
by G. K. Chesterton “Charles II” Twelve Types

A deeper reflection on the Eight Commandment.  ( catechism of the catholic church # 2464-2502) One of the precept of the. Eight commandment as I quote ” The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precetp of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it. Charity and Resoect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication.The good and safety of others, respect for privacy,and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about whtought not be known or for making use of a discreet language .The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal thevtruth to someone who does not have thecright to know it.
God is truth itself; consequently He forbids every kind of falsehood ,especially lying,hypocrisy,and flattery.. God is true ( John 3:33). It is impossible for God to lie ( Hebrew 6:18) Our Lird says :” I am the way and the truth and the life” ( John 14:6) Hence God commands : ” you shall not lie” ( Leviticus 19:11) ” Putting away lying, speak ye the truth every man to his neighbor ” ( Ephesians 4:25) Let your conversation be upright and truthful ,if you would show yourselves to be the children of a him who is the Father of truth and truth itself.
As I quote Rousseau” General abstract truth is the most precious of all blessings ; without it, man is blind ; it is the eye of reason.
Peace to all during this Holy Week

I imagine that those offended by Mr. Voris’ approach to some topics would get completely furious about Ann Barnhardt videos the words “Nice” and “Holy”, or her take on Lindsey Graham about the First Amendment (followed by the quote and burning of a Quran…). And in both cases, people get more concerned about the way they say things than about the truth about their statements. Even when I don’t agree with some points, I kind of admire people who are bold enough to say what they think without hiding anything. Builds some trust.

@ Adam - Your point furthers something that I was thinking. I’ve never heard Voris speak…actually, I’ve never heard of him, period, before reading this post. But as I was reading Pat’s words describing Voris, somebody came to mind. Sean Hannity. Now, I’m a Conservative Catholic, and I’m a card-carrying Republican. But I can’t STAND Sean Hannity. I think he speaks some truth in “hyperbole” ways, but from what I see I think he’s closed-minded and arrogant. He takes minutia and blows them totally out of proportion to advance his agenda. And if that’s what Voris is doing with his hyperbole, then I don’t think he’s doing a service to the church at all…even though he may be speaking the truth. The truth spoken without HUMBLE LOVE falls on deaf ears. I’ll check out Voris myself to make a more informed opinion, but the above is my immediate reaction to Pat’s words. (And Pat - I AM a fan of yours:)

I’ve seen a couple of Voris commentaries. I appreciate his directness in expressing his opinions (about which there is no doubt what he believes), but I do not always agree with them. I am not fond of rhetorical excess, whether it’s him or Bill Donahue. I respect these two for speaking out, and agree with their general aims, but at times I wince at their excesses. We should not be afraid to criticize fellow Catholics if they are presenting a bad image of Catholicism.

“So why did St. John the Baptist and Jesus sometimes use blunt criticism and hyperbole to make points?” Because they knew what they were talking about and had a correct grasp of the Truth.

Put the earth day thing into correct context! Priests were contacted and asked to substitute either Easter or Palm Sunday homilies for an earth day homily. I forgot which Sunday. Just push the Easter homily back a week and give a homily on mother earth.
Voris was not against a ‘green’ homily just when it was to be given and the manner it was presented to priests across the country. Context is so important here.

As for Voris and Corapi, both have greatly strengthened my faith. Neither are combative, both present the Truth in a straight forward manner. Neither seek to promote themselves at the expense of others. Neither mince words. What is it people don’t like the message or the manner of presentation? If you don’t like the messenger that’s a shame, but listen to what they have to say. There is a great deal to be learned there.

personally I hope the Holy Father talks about earth day and carying for the enviroment sometime during the Triduum. Would make me so happy… :-)

When you are in darkness and someone turns a bright light on, you are temporarily stunned….shocked at the “assault”.  When your eyes adjust, there is far more clarity to your vision.  A “courteous” approach is to say “cover your eyes”... thereby allowing you to allow in the LIGHT as you can absorb it. When Easter Eggs become “spring spheres” and no one is appalled, we should all “turn on the light”.  To Jesus Christ be all the Glory, Forever!... Amen.  J.M.J.

In response to Adam posted on April 18 WELL SAID!!!!! I wish so many people could take what you said and internalize it. Unfortunately I have read a lot of arrogance in these posts and articles and I am shocked. Again Adam WELL SAID!

BRAVISSIMO!!

I have watched Voris for awhile now.  He is blunt, but he also prays for those he criticizes.  JoAnna, the point of him outing Earth day is because your priest received a flier from Leonardo DiCaprio telling your priest what to give his Easter Sunday homily on.  Being that the Green Movement is tied to population control & a lot of anti-Catholic teachings, if your priest so much as takes his cue from Leo on Easter Sunday perhaps you should rethink where you are.  Although I do find Mr Voris blunt, it has never been in a self-promotion kind of way.  I truly think he seeks to proclaim truth.  Pope Benedict spoke to this yesterday when he talked of peace at the expense of TRUTH.  He was talking about Pilate condemning Jesus.  Contrasting Pilate’s “pragmatic concept of the law” with “the truth of this case,” Pope Benedict notes that;

In this case peace counted for more than justice in Pilate’s eyes. Not only the great, inaccessible Truth but also the concrete truth… of Jesus’ case had to recede into the background: in this way he believed he was fulfilling the real purpose of the law—its peace-building function. Perhaps this was how he eased his conscience. For the time being, all seemed to be going well. Jerusalem remained calm. At a later date, though, it would become clear that peace, in the final analysis, cannot be established at the expense of truth. What is truth? Pilate was not alone in dismissing this question as unanswerable and irrelevant for his purposes. Today too, in political argument and in discussion of the foundations of law, it is generally experienced as disturbing. Yet if man lives without truth, life passes him by; ultimately he surrenders the field to whoever is the stronger. “Redemption” in the fullest sense can only consist in the truth becoming recognizable. And it becomes recognizable when God becomes recognizable. He becomes recognizable in Jesus Christ. In Christ, God entered the world and set up the criterion of truth in the midst of history. Truth is outwardly powerless in the world, just as Christ is powerless by the world’s standards: he has no legions; he is crucified. Yet in his very powerlessness, he is powerful: only thus, again and again, does truth become power.

Tkhank you Pat for that article. It has taken me and my family some time to “get used to” Michael Voris’ style but I think that is more the fault of our conditioning by the limp-wristed version of Christianity that we have received in our lifetime.  His commentaries are always thought provoking - even if sometimes we don’t agree 100% with him, there is more than a little merit in what he says.  Again, more people need to examine their own prejudices about Jesus and His message.  How would we have reacted to that wild man in the desert, St. John?  How would we have reacted to someone who asked us to cut off our arm or put out our eye if it led us to sin?  If we ever needed people like Michael Voris or Father Corapi, it is now!

Here’s the prevailing attitude as I see it:
“You’re enlightened if you agree with me and opinionated if you don"t.”  So I just continue to speak up - with charity very much in the forefront of my words and tone.  Still, when “they” don’t like the message, the only thing left is to attack the messenger.

Sue,

I’m well aware of Voris’ motivations (i.e., the Earth Day memo). My point is that Voris recommends a blanket approach to something that should be a matter of prudential judgement. I can think of several ways a holy and orthodox priest could talk about “Earth Day” (or, more appropriately, our responsibility to be good stewards of the Earth, as specified in Catholic teaching).

Next time, try reading my comments in their entirety before responding.

Thank you for commenting on the Michael Voris Video on earth day.. Here in Canada it is the new religion.. Our Christian Kids are holding services in schools where Mother Earth is the Creator and is considered neo-Divine. Now these Politicos, who have done their best to take on the Christian Church and have done everything to discredit it, want our Priests to preach on earth day. How do we as a practising community, make the slumbering clerics in our diocese to WAKE UP? Make a statement! Voris can be annoying to listen to especially of you haven’t read all your email until the evening and you decide to have a Vortex Party!! It can be a bit of a downer.

On that, I wish everyone who really want something to celebrate: XPICTOC ANECTH!

Ouch, JoAnna! You are sounding so much like Voris in your last reply to Sue! Well, I like him, I have no problem with that. But you, who doesn’t like him because of his behavior, should try to avoid behaving in the same way.

I am Italian and in my culture, Voris’ style is nothing particularly “in your face”, let alone aggressive. The French reason the same way.

You only need to visit some reputed Italian Catholic sites like Messa In Latino to experience a very high level of education coupled with a bluntness that would let your typical PC “I am hurt” lady run away crying; for which event, may I add, no one would care or feel “guilty”.

The problem here is that in Anglo-Saxon countries intellectual cowardice has become so institutionalised, that every clear opinion is seen as violation of the New First Commandment: Thou Shall not say anything which might offend anyone.

Both in the UK and the USA you really, really need to wake up to the extent to which this stupid mentality has poisoned not only the religious debate, but Christianity itself.

Mundabor

It’s not his behavior I have a problem with, Hugo. It’s his bad advice and his failure to recognize a situation which calls for prudential judgement as opposed to a blanket approach.

Michael Voris is an articulate,loyal-to-the-Magisterium Roman Catholic journalist. I agree he could lighten up on his sarcasm, and what seems like attacks on some bishops. But at the risk of offending some, he does speak the truth, I believe.

I have at times questioned Michael’s methodology of being too bold reporting some of the Church’s problems.I can understand why some bishops would not appreciate is reporting, and would not want him speaking in their diocese. Not everything should be broadcasted, even if it’s true. Michael Voris does subscribe to way no-holds barred approach, which I would like to see him change. But I believe he is genuine in his desire to advance the Culture of Life and lead souls to Christ.

Okay, JoAnna. If your problem is what you consider to be bad advice,
there is a series presented by him called CIA, where you can find a program about the green agenda pushing to population control and related matters - and how anti-Catholic many of their points are.
Nobody needs to agree with everything, but nobody can ignore that they devoted lots of work to reach their conclusions. I consider that they (Voris and St. Michael media) are sincere in their search for the truth.
If you agree with his conclusion, well, a sense of urgency is inevitable. If you disagree, certainly you will fell like he is doing the wrong thing. But to understand his point completely, I’m going to paraphrase you and say that you should watch his message in its entirety.

*sigh*

Hugo, I’m well aware of the Hollywood/MSM “green agenda.” It’s not news to me.

My problem is that Voris does not draw a distinction between the “green agenda” and the our responsibility to be good stewards of the earth as outlined in Catholic social justice teaching.

Michael is an interesting study. I certainly don’t agree with everything he says, for example I do not agree the Novus Ordo mass is a product of Masonic influence. However, he is challenging in many ways and what is fascinating is that much of what he is saying in this country is said by many priests and bishops in other countries outside of Europe and North America. In fact, if you were to see his words written and those of clergy outside of the aforementioned area, you would be fascinated to see little difference in the majority of the messages.

So, I watch him because he is always a challenge even for this Novus Ordo priest. I don’t always agree with him, but I am a subscriber and I do take much of he says to heart.

Do I want people to leave my parish if I mention Earth day on Easter Sunday? No, but the obvious and more important question would be if our complete focus is that Jesus is the first born from the dead and through him we have eternal life in the Kingdom of God, for what reason would I be in any way discussing how to keep the environment clean. However, I know Christian churches that are not Catholic but that are focused on such things this coming weekend, then, I would agree with Michael that this is a red flag if it were to happen in any Catholic parish.

I apologize JoAnna if I offended you.  And you are correct about using Prudential Judgement.  I did read your entire post and I guess I just was not offended, nor did I find the advice to be imprudent. I think I took Mr. Voris to be speaking more of the Fr. Pfleger’s & Fr. Breen’s of the the world.  People have tried for years and years to change that to no avail.  If the priest doesn’t want the change, or isn’t open to it, it won’t happen.  And it can end up hurting those trying to adhere to church teaching.  Another blogger named Suzanne pointed out; The idea that “good, conservative adult Catholics” are impervious to the harms of bad teaching from the pulpit is based on pride. Sometimes the bad stuff is obvious—e.g., giving Earth Day primacy of place in an Easter homily. But you can bet your buttons that if the pastor of a parish is spouting that kind of nonsense, he’s also spouting more subtle error—perhaps too subtle for even a good, well intentioned Catholic to pick up on. So, he imbibes the error and it affects him/his life/his family without his even being aware.

Subtle error or simple omission of Catholic teaching infected the parish I grew up in, and by the time I was 18, I hardly knew what it meant to be Catholic or what Catholics believed. My father tried for two decades to be an amiable voice for truth in that parish—to absolutely no avail. Changing parishes wasn’t really an option back in those days, as neighboring parishes were all as bad or worse than ours.

The notion that right-minded Catholics would be able to shape a parish for good when there is pastor who simply and obviously doesn’t have the Faith is at best naive. It does not comport with the experience that many good Catholics with a whole lot more experience with such pastors and parishes have lived. - Suzanne

So, I see your point, but I also see Michael Voris’ as well and I take no offense at it.

Thanks for your time, JoAnna. Social justice is important. Being a good steward is very important.
But you don’t fast when the Bridegroom is among us. Easter Sunday is about Him, the “poor earth” will always be among us.

Frankly we need more outspoken orthodox Catholics like Michael Voris. I am very tired of trying to persuade our priests and deacons to even mention the word “abortion” once a year because it might “offend” someone! The Catholic Church and the whole world is in the mess it is today because of moral relativism and the “PC” crowd…which includes many in the USCCB! I’ve had enough of the “God is love” and comedy tour homilies….we NEED to actually hear what the Church teaches on specific issues like contraception, abortion, traditional marriage, etc! It is not terrible to hear we need to be good stewards of the earth, but many (including priests) are buying into this “man-made global warming” hoax which has population control, a pagan worship of the earth and a one world order as it’s ultimate goals. Mr. Voris was just denied giving talks in the Archdiocese of Scranton, PA because they didn’t like his blunt statements on Protestant denominations but they are allowing an open lesbian who believes in abortion to speak. Go figure. Mr Voris: Speak the truth…because the truth will set you free!

Hence while I said it’s an issue of prudential judgement. If your priest devotes the Easter Sunday homily to Earth Day while allowing liturgical dancers to perform an Ode to Gaia on the altar, then yes indeed, I would leave the parish and find another one.

But if your priest uses his Easter homily to talk about the inappropriateness of the groups in question wishing to hijack Easter in favor of Earth Day, and inviting everyone to pray for their conversion since Jesus died for them too, I’d stay where I was.

Voris, however, seems to be advocating that I leave the church in both scenarios.

*why I said

I don’t think so.  There we can agree to disagree.  I like Michael Voris.  I am glad someone is finally speaking up because the church should be loving and it is loving to point out sin in an effort to stop it.  It is not loving to tolerate sin.  If you had ever watched Voris at all you would know that your second scenario would not be what he meant, hence the hyperbole that Mr. Archbold was talking about.  Respectfully always.  Hope you have a great day JoAnna.  I’m out.

I don’t know what Voris meant as I’m not God and I can’t read his heart and mind. I can only go by what he actually said, and to my knowledge he hasn’t clarified his statements. (If I’m wrong on that, please do let me know.)

I think if you are serious about an issue you should use words such as….

“Frikken!”

If you say “Enough with the FRIKKEN contraception!” then I like you already.  That way of speaking appeals to me because that’s how people talk where I grew up.  (One guess.)

Now that I live in a much more “genteel” place - people are all mealy mouthed and jump through ALL KINDS of verbally gymnastic hula hoops to keep themselves from being direct.  All for the sake of “politeness”.

DRIVES ME FRIKKEN NUTS!  Say what you mean!  (You won’t hurt my feelings by saying, “Know what?  You’re an idiot.”  Because, well, maybe you’re right!  How else will I know if you don’t tell me, or you say it in such a polite way that I don’t get it?  Same is true with our faith.  This is important stuff.  Some people don’t get it unless they get hit over the head with it.  So START WACKIN’!

To me, being overly polite is un-genuine, sneaky, false, putting on airs, and really freaking annoying!  Since MILLIONS of Americans prefer to be direct, shouldn’t “ALL OF Y’ALL” adjust to OUR culture and quit wasting time beating around the frikken bush?!  (Note: there was sarcasm and some very slight hyperbole contained within that last.)

At least now I understand that some people can be offended by direct language simply because direct language is not a part of their culture. 

So the question is:  Should we/do we need to be sensitive to the cultural niceties of others when we speak - especially about God? 

I don’t frikken know. :)  But I think that we need to be less offended by the WAY people speak than by WHAT it is they are speaking about!

And, in general on these Catholic blogs, there needs to be a whole lot less “MOTE SPOTTING” and a whole more prayerful support.  Too much of this borders on making a pastime of criticizing others - like for sport (SEE!! I JUST DID IT MYSELF! - frikken hypocrite too!)

BTW - I understood that “Eye of the needle” was NOT Jesus being hyperbolic.  As there was a place - I believe in or around an entrance to Jerusalem, that was called the “Eye of the needle” because it was a real entry way and that a real, actual camel COULD pass through it, but only with very great difficulty.  This would jibe with what many Saints (and Jesus himself) have told us about the number of people who are in Hell and/or make it to Heaven. (I could be wrong - smarter people will correct me.)

Happy holy week!

It seems you are able to determine what he meant because you gave two examples where you can clearly see the difference.  You want him to clarify, why?  You are clear, really, seriously, you know what he meant.  Or are you trying to tell me that you really do believe he was advocating people walking out in your second scenario??  I think you just don’t like him.  And that’s okay, but call it what it is and stop attacking him.

Sue,

Disagreeing =/= attacking.

Your comment at 12:13pm makes no sense. Voris did NOT differentiate between the two examples I gave. His view was that either scenario would warrant withdrawing financial support from your parish and finding another.

My view is that it’s a prudential judgement call. Hence my disagreement with him.

It may be what he “meant” but it is not what he SAID. If he meant something different than what he said, perhaps he should have said what he meant in the first place instead of saying something that was not what he meant.

I guess I figure intelligent people can figure out what he meant.  A clarification is not needed. I think most people, including yourself, are intelligent.  Plus Voris has clarified himself plenty if you have watched his other videos.  I think you are nitpicking.  His “blanket statement” was obviously hyperbole especially in light of his other videos.  Did you want to nitpick Jesus for his eye of the needle comment.  Shouldn’t Jesus clarify what he meant?  Again, I think you just don’t like Mr. Voris and if you want to be angry by his one single statement, and throw out the rest of his very valid points because of it, then okay.  But he doesn’t need to clarify for me, or any of my friends that read it.  We understand what he meant.

As a white male heterosexual Christian Catholic I not only understood what Mr. Voris was saying I am in total agreement with what he said.

I just watched Michael Voris video about earth day and that what these so called stars want the catholic priest to talk about on Easter sunday, if any priest talks about earth day on any sunday I will not go to that church again.  We need more talks on heaven, purgatory and hell, the pill and abortion.  Fr. Corpi has it right, there are too many catholic who want their ears tickled.

1. You condemn me for “attacking” Voris and then you call me “not intelligent” just because I assume that he meant what he said. Is that fair?

Perhaps you and your friends can magically discern his meaning, but I’m sorry, I’m just an average person without any special powers to that end.

2. I can’t say if I like or dislike Voris as I’ve never met him. I do dislike this particular opinion of his, however. That doesn’t go for all of his opinions, some of which I do agree with—just not this one.

3. Has Voris made subsequent videos clarifying or modifying his statement? I’m not aware of any. Like I said in previous comments, if he has done so, please let me know.

If you would read my post I actually said you were intelligent.  You didn’t read correctly.  Sheesh, too if I have to clarify everything I say, I am in big big trouble.

Hey - also - some of you people need to get over it and move on to the next important topic in your lives.  Say some prayers and move on.

Me too.

Sue - I read what you wrote. You said you guessed “intelligent people” could figure it out, and while you went on to say that you assumed I was intelligent, that stands in direct contradiction to what you actually said.

But I guess I was supposed to magically know what you meant despite what you said? That seems to be your preferred SOP… I prefer to say what I mean and mean what I say. Makes things easier.

Hey, are you freaking kidding me,  I agree.  I am moving on. And praying.  I tell someone THEY ARE INTELLIGENT, not that I ASSUMED IT, yet that isn’t apparently clear.  I also said I knew she was because she was able to make her own distinction about when to leave and when not too which shows intelligence.  Sorry JoAnna.  It is time to move on.  Have a great day

So what is wrong with joining an Orthodox parish when one’s Roman Catholic parish is horribly and hopelessly in error, and the local diocese is complicit and does not permit one to transfer to another parish?

The Catechism teaches if one does not have a Roman Catholic church available, attend an Orthodox one.

Rome views all the sacraments in the Orthodox Church as valid. In the U.S. ever more Orthodox parishes are being founded where worship is done in English, and converts and seekers are welcomed.

The Orthodox Church in America is growing, in no small part, due to serious, devout Roman Catholics becoming disgusted with what they see going on their parishes and simply following the Roman Catholic Cathecism.

Aw come on now you guys.  I wish I could see you hug it out! (NOT being sarcastic there. First time for everything)

We all DO love each other don’t we?!  Well we should!  Easy to misunderstand when you are all worked up.  Like I said, some people speak English and it comes out as Chinese and other people head English but interpret it in German.  Makes for a tough conversation (And it’s REALLY hard to get your order right when you are calling for take out.) 

But, see?!  WE ALL mean well - we just talk different.  (Or differentLY - for those of you who didn’t get it. :)

Great day’s all around! Just think of those people who got whacked by those tornadoes, then thank God.  Then thank Him again!  Then smile, because you are LOVED SO MUCH!  WOW!  Can’t you believe how much God loves us?!  Much better thought to dwell on, yeah?

Later gators.

Voris, from what I’ve seen and read, is taking his cues from Glenn Beck and that style of commentary. Not my cup of tea

I am a huge fan of Michael Voris because he relays the absolute gospel truth regarding the Catholic Church and the world in which we live today. He is a wealth of knowledge and is incredibly in touch with true catholic conservative values. Yeah, he is in your face, but that is what many catholics need as they are being led down the rosy liberal road to hell.

There is a difference between being blunt or direct and being obnoxious.

Most important:  During Holy Week and Easter, Catholicism makes earth day look feeble. false and stupid.  During Easter we celebrate all human flesh and all of physical creation being redeemed and raised to a level of glory and magnificence that the earth day twits can’t even conceive of.  Bread and wine are products of soil, water, sun—earth, they become the body of God.  Top that Al Gore and Barbara Streisand! They don’t get it; they don’t want to get it. They want to usurp the power of Christ and try to bring the earth to glory by aborting the whole life process.  I think it’s a case of casting pearls before swine ..not my blunt, judgmental words words BTW.

  We read in 2Timothy:
 For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth but will be turned unto fables.

Look, preaching is one of the central commissions of the priest’s vocation (Go and teach all nations…) and if he feels no qualms about turning his ears away from Christ and to Al Gore his parishioners need to beware.
Earth day is to Easter as the black mass is to the holu sacrifice of the Mass.

Linda, Michael is no Glenn Beck. Beck is all over the place bordering on conspiracy theory, whereas, Voris is like a laser focused on the the conservative and historically based teachings of the one true Catholic Church. Beck is trying to make sure you have your root cellar well stocked. Voris is trying to save your soul!!!

Different subject, same style

I listen to Voris frequently. His style may be blunt but not always factual. He mixes opinion with fact. A recent episode criticized a Catholic church for complementing the choir at the end of a liturgy. His reason was because it was a distraction from the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. There was no theology here but there was opinion. He will also criticise clergy from one speech or sermon and will then go off on a tangent and assume some heresy from that speech without looking at everything else a clergy says. He makes an assumption or opinion because something else is not said.I will still listen to Voris because he makes me think, but not because he is an end all to theologic thought . He is flawed but so am I.Thank God.

I could not care less about Voris’ tone.  I care about the content of his words, like his command to leave your parish if a priest breathes a word about Earth Day.  I see no evidence that this is hyperbole.  And since the great flood of people in my comboxes last week informing me that they left their impure parish, I see no particular evidence he’s being received that way.  He’s training the members of a tiny subculture to regard most of the rest of the Church as enemies.  That’s bad, and it’s not wrong to say so.  (Cue complaints about my “tone” in 3, 2, 1…)

Agreed, Mark.

Michael Voris ROCKS!!!!!  Any priest that chooses to discuss Earth Day on Easter Sunday is ‘out to lunch’.  Let’s see…hmmmmm…. let’s talk about Earth Day and promote the agenda of the ‘save the trees crowd’ or let’s talk about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and what that means to mankind.  Hmmm…..oh let me think…...it’s hard.  WHAT….R U kidding?  I particularly liked the effort of some to offer cockamamy examples to make Voris look ‘stupid’. 

Thank God for Voris’ in-your-face style. If you don’t like it….well heck…..tough beans! I’ve just spent 40 years listening to the drooling, narcissistic, secular progressive relativists who complain about orthodox Catholics like they are a plague while in the background we get…bad music, liturgical abuses, confession by appointment, bad catechesis, heretical RCIA programs and on and on and on.

Here’s what is stupid….sitting around while this kind of ‘stupidity’ is promoted within the Church. 

:)

Mark

We do have enemies within the church—unfaithful priests comprise one group.
It is far more likely that an unfaithful priest would take his preaching cue from Al Gore than from the magnificent Catholic Easter doctrine.

I’m not a fan of Vorhis and don’t follow his videos.  But it’s a fact that everyone parish-shops these days.  It’s common given the “diversity” of liturgical experience out there.  And, in places where Bishops are lax on prolife, what happens is prolifers tend to cling to one place or another where prolife is respected as a value because in most other places people are outright hostile to prolife and don’t want to know, hear of it or see anything related to that, there is a profound silence about it as a general matter.  The Catholics for choice folks tell their people to pressurize pastors who speak of it, to confront them about it, to make their displeasure known if it is mentioned and to vote with their feet and go elsewhere.  I’m not saying it should be done because everyone does it but it does go on and in practice this is what is happening.  I don’t think that it falls into the realm of “schism”. 

Sometimes you have to shake the dust from your sandals.  It doesn’t mean, for all time, but if you are hearing Earth Day promoted on Good Friday (which it falls on this year) then I think that can be a pretty strong red flag, a very strong indication that the leadership, starting from the top, at that parish has its priorities way out of place.  Liberals as well as conservatives can be guilty of excessive clericalism and a pastor who talks Earth Day on Good Friday is not likely one who would entertain any dialogue about it with a concerned parishioner.  If there are pastoral folks who are promoting it and not pastor well that’s a different matter, that’s probably not in and of itself reason to pack up and go.  People are by and large quite accommodating of a number of faults and miscues in the Church and in parishes and come back to Mass week after week nonetheless.  Voris talks tough but maybe it’s not a terrible thing to try and encourage people to wake up and look around and see what’s going on, how resources are being spent.  Sometimes resources are devoted to a lot of weird stuff and the basic sacraments are sort of neglected.  One has to take a close look at it.  This is what is happening, in some places, not all places.  Perhaps where you are things are pretty solid, consistent, encouraging, strengthen you to fight the good fight so that a little Earth Day here and there won’t kill you.  But perhaps where you are the Church is not really recognizable and the interest in celebrating Earth Day in lieu of recognizing the Passion of the Lord on Good Friday is happening and disconcerting.  If you found yourself in such a situation, what, I ask you, would you do?  Move to another state altogether? 

It seems pretty clear that Voris is talking about a place that is outright promoting Earth Day, not a happenstance where someone might references it in connection with some other point to be made so I am not worried about the instance of a priest who gets up and says “And for those who celebrate Earth Day, we pray for conversion”...last I checked, Earth Day is not a sin so I seriously doubt that a priest is going to get up and pray for the conversion of Earth Day enthusiasts.  Earth Day is a big media extravaganza anyway.

I don’t think this is tantamount to calling for schism or anything like that, to say that I think is itself hyperbole.

Sometimes, especially when there are children involved one has to be discerning given that we don’t have all the time in the world and look for what a family can work together with in harmony.  If one is retired or single then maybe there are different considerations as to whether to continue to entertain that.  Messages and symbols matter, it counts.  A place that opts to highlight Earth Day 2011 on Good Friday 2011 as a practical matter must do so while simultaneously rejecting other considerations, it’s just a matter of practical concerns of time and space, energy and resources.  I think that people can tell that this is what Voris is talking about.  If it doesn’t apply to them then it’s perhaps not helpful to slam Voris (the messenger) and pray harder for those who might find themselves in difficult circumstances in a trying time in our Church’s history.

Voris is great!  I listen to him every day.  I’ve never heard him say anything contrary to orthodox Catholic belief.  So sorry that some are “offended” by his tone or content.  Many were offended by the prophets of the Old and New Testaments, too.  Keep it up, Michael!  God love you!

I like strongly stated positions. Another strong voice out there is Fr. Bill Casey. Good man. But I understand that this sort of thing is not everyone’s cup of tea. But we need it in the Church if you ask me.

Patrick - thank you for another great post.  BTW, if anyone has ever heard the way these bloggers talk in real time about fellow Catholics, the holier than thou gig would take on a new patina!

Want to hear a funny story?

I had a little back and forth with one of the authors who claim to be appalled at the suggestion that Catholics draw the line in the sand to any priest who would paganize Our Lord’s Ressurection.    No matter how many times it was explained to her that there is a movement afoot to paganize the Christian Holy Day to some kind of spring or mother earth celebration, she kept saying we were all over-reacting to ‘a word in a homily’.  She insisted that finding a faithful parish was ‘sowing seeds of schism’ and that we should drop our children off at CCD to be formed by Nancy Pelosi-Al Gore parishes because we need to dialog with them.  If we are holy, everyone will be holy, she believes.

Later, she admitted she had pulled her children out of a Catholic school to homeschool them!

A priest who would respond to a memo to paganize Easter Sunday and wire the flock into the earth instead of Jesus Christ’s glorious Resurrection is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.  It is a symptom of a much bigger problem - a parish that has replaced the pursuit of Sanctifying Grace for the pursuit of pagan spirituality.  I absolutely affirm the warning Michael Voris gave - take your family and run, don’t walk, to a parish where the priest is a focused on the Divinity of Christ, Sacramental Grace and your salvation.

Ding. You are spot on, Mr Archbold.

“Are you Frikken kidding me” -  Thank-you for saying what has been bothering me for years!!!  You are so RIGHT!!!  I believe that we communicate, for the most part, in the same style that we hear messages.  Voris’ style works for a lot of us.  If you don’t like it, don’t listen.  But stop criticizing him!

(How many quiet, gentle, NICE teachers just put you to sleep?!?!?!)

I agree heartily with the article. Voris JUST TOO MASCULINE AND EFFECTIVE for the over feminized religious culture of post Vat II American Catholic middle class NICENESS. And should I add PROTESTANTized AND BUREAUCRATized church life. Voris’ style FITS HIS PURPOSE EXACTLY. And he IS respectful in a way that is ALSO DIRECT AND STRONG AND NEVER FLATTERING (which is a form of lying according to St. Thomas). Once or twice I thought he was too hard on some issue or person, but that is RARE. Over all, he is JUST WHAT THE DOCTOR ORDERED, when the Bishops are permissive and overly concerned with politcal and social matters to the detriment of clearly APOSTOLIC PREACHING THEMSELVES as well as failing to correct the anti-supernatural spirit of much church life.When I think of the vigor of St. Jerome and others in the Patristic period compared to present mediocrity, I understand why Voris makes waves, and I’m very glad he does. He’s interested in Truth and saving souls. I’m not sure WHAT his critics are interested BEYOND A STYLE THAT’S STRONG AND UNAMBIGUOUS.

I love some of the hand wringing in the combox.  After 40+ years of post Vatican II wishy washy preaching and limp Catechesis, Mr. Voris is a breath of fresh air.  Bravo to him.

And, don’t look now, but people have been leaving parishes because of bs liberal mumbling from the pulpit for the last 40 years.  That’s why our churches are empty, not to mention seminaries and convents.

At least these days you might have a slim chance of actually finding an orthodox parish to attend.

Mike Voris and Father Corapi are two individuals that have helped me learn the faith and had a huge impact on my re-conversion.  I think they both love the Church and believe in ALL of her teachings.  They both also have a huge devotion to our Blessed Mother.  I pray for both of them and their ministries every day.

God Bless

RE:  “bluntness?  having an opinion and speaking it?  sraightforward criticism?”  those who “... prefer declarative sentences to interrogative ones…perceived to be bombastic and thus, somehow, un-Christian”.

This describes much of the writing inspired by God in the Bible-the examples are legion. For example-you want bombast? go read God’s words in Job. You want a judgmental declaration…see almost every book.  Bluntness-God’s forte. Many find hard sayings in God’s own hard words and walk away [to Seattle?]. Those offended, those saying do it another way - casigate Voris and God in the same breath, for the same “failing”.

guy mcclung

You asked:

“So why did St. John the Baptist and Jesus sometimes use blunt criticism and hyperbole to make points?  Because they knew, as some others do today, that this can be an effective way to reach people.”

Ummmmm, not so much. 

For them, there was this overwhelming force (as there was for Isiah, Daniel, Hosea, etc. before them).

It was called the Holy Spirit. 

And, if the Holy Spirit is commanding your tongue—you go girl!

But if it is not, and Voris and you, and I and most of us have no such gift—then it is best to understand the sin of pride. 

Each of us are imperfect and know infinitely less than we think we know. 

For us to try and speak authoritatively—even on a subject that we might believe we have some inside knowledge about—only speaks to our foolishness.

Only God knows all.  The rest of us better take a very big bite of humble pie and speak with a soft tongue.

It’s funny that when I post Voris videos on my Facebook certain Catholics call me judgemental. They don’t like the tone of the video or mine. I get a lot of, “I don’t like the way you talk about priests.” Then they quote from scripture telling me that I’m not supposed to judge. I’m not sure why they even care to respond because they don’t even care enough to read the news about events involving the Church including the pope, SSPX, the Anglicans, the Orthodox, or even the Mass!

JoAnna, calm down. Pat Archbold makes the point that sometimes you have to use hyperbole and blunt exaggerated statements to make the point and gave some gospel examples. What about when Jesus said:“if your right eye/hand makes you sin, gouge/cut it out/off!” Really? Yes! Literally? No! I admire Voris’ blunt and hyperbolic style (that is not as exaggeratedly hyperbolic as Jesus) and the courage to tell it like it is. I think we shouldn’t be cutting down or throwing stones at one of our own, especially if that person has done nothing wrong, but is just trying to do some good, or most good that he can! Now, on the Voris suggestion, that “If your priest so much as MENTIONS the words ‘Earth Day’ in a homily, LEAVE and never darken the door of that parish again!” Should be literally taken precisely as going to another Catholic parish where the full truth of the Catholic faith is preached, if at the one you go to this is not the case. This is literally good advice, and common practice among those who want to be faithful, remain faithful and persevere in the Church, etc. This said, I don’t think that the imperativeness of Voris’ literal advice should be executed absolutely by everyone in every place and every time by each and every faithful Catholic. Maybe in most cases, but I don’t think it is meant absolutely, because I think there is an implied open-ended space for prudence. The implied open-ended-ness for prudent action is called upon by the common sense variables implied in a given context and person. The context of Earth Day being mentioned not as the point of the homily, etc. (like the example given by Jo Ann) would call for an non-literal response or action to the Voris imperative advice. But even if “Earth Day” was mentioned to somehow advance the New Age Gaia (Earth goddess) cult inadvertently, but practically loose focus on Jesus, etc., then it falls on the person to decide what he/she can or cannot do with his-her weak/ignorant or strong/informed faith to influence or change a given situation, whether it be good to stay and fight the good fight (to fight for the faith within a faith community and against a priest, who is not only called to be, but perceived as father, pastor, guardian of the faith of the community?! Good luck with that!), or to leave that parish and hopefully leave that wayward priest preaching to the empty pews. An empty church (less Sunday collections!) may surely get the attention of the bishop, instead of your complaints against the priest, if many ever get past being a NOBODY in their church and diocese!
I know there must be some Easter hope in all this, so somebody help me!

UGH. I actually went over to CAEI and read Mr Shea’s seething invective. I had forgotten why I had, like so many others, stopped reading him so long ago.  He calls those he invites to comment on his website a mob sent there with pitchforks, etc.

And all of that yawping after he, apparently, had a pitchfork in his head when he watched Voris’ video. Mr. Voris thought he was a Bishop? Mr. Shea thinks so. He slaps a Pitchfork-Pierced-Water-Balloon (it holds no water) Title for his rant and then rapidly descends from that low-life start.

Mr. Shea has a well-trod path that he appears to be on once again. He misreads the personal opinion of some other layman, accuses him of thinking he is Bishop or Pope, or accuses him of malign intent, and then trashes him and then, after the rhetorical spasms subside, Mr. Shea returns to his site to apologise with promises never to do it again.

No thanks. That act became tiresome the first several times I saw it and, after today, it still needs dressing-up before he takes it on the road; i.e.,to other sites.

Mr. Voris was quite clear about what he was talking about and he referenced the Pagan Crap he was complaining about and his counsel was sound. Who cares if Mr. Shea can, after the fact, and clearly unconnected with Mr. Voris’ response to a specific Fax, imagine a Sermon that somehow shoehorns in Earth Day on The Pasch.

Well, I am the same age as Israel and I have NEVER heard such a Sermon at Easter and so I would, NATURALLY, think that there was a connection twixt the Pagan Fax and such a Sermon but Mr. Shea, disingenuously,  thinks that such a novelty could be explained away as having nothing to do with the Pagan Fax.

PFFFFT!!!!  Right.

Mr. Voris seems to have compounded his scooping of the complacent coterie of commentators with content and comment and then added insult to that intellectual injury by, well, acting masculine.

Mr. Voris beat them all to the punch and so the jeuune Judy’s are jumping ugly about their non sequitur fears they have projected onto what he has said.

If this were Scripture, what they are doing would be called, eisegesis. In this instance what is being done is just jejune and feline.

Reynaldo, I am perfectly calm. Which of my comments indicated otherwise?

I have no issues whatsoever with Voris’ style. I just think his advice was faulty. He did not make any exceptions between the scenarios I presented, even if that was indeed what he meant. If it was, and he’s released a statement to that effect, then I stand corrected. To my knowledge, he has not done so.

Vermont Crank,

Bearing false witness is a sin.

Shea said, “I’m having trouble buying the pre-emptive conviction so many of the pitchfork wavers have that, this weekend, the majority of the Church is going to hear homilies on Gaia worship.”

He was not asking pitchfork-wavers to comment, he was calling those who are convinced that 99.9% of Catholic parishes will preach Odes to Gaia on Easter Sunday pitchfork wavers.

My question is, why is it acceptable for Michael Voris to engage in hyperbole, but when Mark Shea does so it is a mortal sin?

PS:  The exception to speaking with a soft-tongue is if you are repeating—repeating not creating—something the Catholic Church teaches.

If Mr. Voris or any of us can show a consistent teaching of the Catholic Church (consistent = over decades or centuries), then by all means, let the cannons loose with the CHURCH’s words, not your own.

I hardly believe a topic about a letter from Earth Day supporters qualifies as a CHURCH teaching.  It might be Mr. Voris’ interprettation of a church teaching, but unless we also want Mr. Voris to alter the Gospel, according to his own interpretation—we should advise him to speak as one who has no special gift of the Holy Spirit and one who is NOT repeating Catholic Church teachings.

My oh my. 

Why have I kept reading these posts?

So many stones being cast in all directions… really messing up the stained glass of this Mystical Body.  Does anyone else read these Catholic blogs and hear Satan chuckling at the irony?  (Not literally of course, but it wouldn’t surprise me.) 

Just look at how vehemently and quickly we feed into growing the weeds of the seeds of discontent sown among us?!  Does this LIAR want to see us: upset, and angry, feeling righteous and prideful?  Doesn’t this misanthrope “love” this DIVISION in this part of the Church?  What do you think?

It feels good to be RIGHT, doesn’t it?  Hmmmm…. Are we?

Is there ANYONE here who’s time would not be better spent united in prayer with your brothers and sisters in Christ, Jesus? 

I will head there alone if necessary.  God love and bless each of you.

“My question is, why is it acceptable for Michael Voris to engage in hyperbole, but when Mark Shea does so it is a mortal sin?”

Because this silly teapot tempest is mostly a matter of tribal allegiances.  Mr. Voris teaches his Followers to regard most Catholics as Them and when you question that simplistic formula you automatically identify yourself as one of Them (because why else would you question One of the Only Real Men in the Catholic Church as combox followers describe him?).  Remember, when your stated purpose is to capture and expose the Lies, it follows that if somebody disagrees with you, they are part of the Vast Conspiracy of Lies, not mere people with a different piety.  Communion in the hand, just as much as pedophilia in the Church, is the domain of the People of the Lie.  Somebody who so much as breathes a word about Earth Day is a “pagan” and unworthy of sharing the altar with Real Catholics.  And those who doubt this black and white formulation are enemies of Real Catholicism and namby pamby Ned Flanders, not brother and sister Catholics and certainly not Real Men.  No wonder some readers could detect the telltale whiff of my alleged homosexuality when I criticized this sort of thinking.

Pat Archbold-  That was better than fresh air! 
Thanks!  I needed that.

“However, I said, “Ouch!” when Michael told us that our separated brethren are in danger of going to hell. Because there are way TOO many Liberal Catholics at this time, they need a HUGE WAKE-UP call.” Patricia Detterich, This is the wake up call. They took away our kneelers and made us kneel on a pitched forward amphitheatre floor. They took away our solemnities and made us a hootenany. They took away our tabernacles and made Jesus imprisoned in the sanctuary. They made us sing songs written by some lunatic and I use “lunatic” because it is the most charitable discription I can think of other than that it is despicable for a man to live with another man. They took our money and paid for a gay pride parade, abortion and Obama. ENOUGH. Several decades ago me and mine started leaving the parishes that catered to the numbminded. It was after my children were taught that they were not persons but had to jump through some kind of politically correct hoops to become a person. Voris is just closing the gate after the horses have escaped.

JoAnna: Gaia “worship” consists in denying that the human being is a person, a child of God. Gaians consider the human race as parasites on the skin of Gaia, pollution, and flotsom and jetsom, garbage. Bowing to the demands of such a group of people might make them think that they, not our Holy Mother Church, is without sin. Man knows that he is imperfect and needs Divine Providence. The atheist says that there is no God, no hope, and takes all hope away from a soul. Gaians are persons who would tyrannize the least of us.

Mark P. Shea, I curtsey to your reply. I wish I had your skill with words.

I don’t believe that we have to insult to save.  I don’t think being rude is the same as “telling it like it is”. It’s just rude ... sometimes

It hits me hard as a returning to the fold Catholic, when an apologist feels they have “to be cruel to be kind”.
The whole you’re either with us or against us theme is becoming tiresome

JoAnna, I’m sorry. I was in a hurry while writing (I should never do that), and I thought for a moment you were defending the Earth day over the Easter.
That said, I see that you agree with Michael Voris on the main point (Easter is way more important than Earth day). I also understand that you don’t have any problem with the way he says things. So, correct if I got it wrong, but it seems that you just disagree with him because he doesn’t leave any room form mentioning the “Earth-day attack” during homily, even if the priest decides to criticize it during Easter, is it right? I think that there are so many better reasons to disagree with him, this one is kind of very weak the way I see it - just my opinion, I know, it doesn’t mean much anyway.
-
Mark Shea: your exposition, filled all over with ironies, sounds too smart-guyish. I’m not the best one to give advices, since even the priest, in my last Confession, told me to go straight to the point when he noticed I was talking too much and meaning too little… But I need to tell you: go straight to the point. Yes, yes, no, no. People is free to like or dislike without that much disdain over their choices. My opinion is certainly irrelevant, but I really didn’t like the way you said what you said at 5:40pm - and, on the other hand, it is one of the reasons I like the way Mr. Voris express himself: even when he is criticizing someone, the reasons for the criticism are very clearly stated. I’m sure you can do much better than that without too much effort.

Dear Mr. Shea. LOL The identifiable masculinity of Mr. Voris really hits a sore spot with you, doesn’t it?

Communion in the hand is a grave scandal but it is easy to relativise away its serious scandal by comparing it to Pedophilia and then slyly insinuating that is what men like Mr. Voris actually do and actually think; that both are equally evil.

But, of course, that is just a nasty, and despicable, rhetorical tactic on your part because he has never done any such thing.

The rest of your post is beneath contempt as well. Mr. Voris never says that those who disagree with him are members of a vast conspiracy of lies. What a blatantly false imputation of motive and total distortion of his identifiable public record.

You are a toxic and very nasty man.  You totally failed in your attempt to reframe Mr. Voris’ point by not noting his entire presentation was based upon the fax he identified.

Shame on you. Really. Shame on you.

But I need to tell you: go straight to the point.

Okey doke.  If you leave your parish merely because a priest mentions Earth Day, you are indulging the fleshly sin of factionalism, as you are likewise doing if you make excuses and defenses of those who command Catholics to do such a foolish thing.

Likewise, you are fomenting the fleshly sin of factionalism if you command Catholics “if the priest even so much as breathes a word about Earth Day, throw nothing in the collection plate, finish your Sunday obligation and resign from that parish on Monday”.

I say this as somebody who has, myself, been forced to move parishes to protect my family from tommyrot.  I have no problem with moving when nonsense is really endangering souls.  But I have a big problem with teaching people to treat legitimate theological variety as though the Church should be divided into the Enemy 99% vs. the Pure 1%, with the Pure 1% looking for shibboleths to give them a hair-trigger excuse to flee their parish in contempt.

The identifiable masculinity of Mr. Voris really hits a sore spot with you, doesn’t it?

You stay classy, VC.

Hugo,

“So, correct if I got it wrong, but it seems that you just disagree with him because he doesn’t leave any room form mentioning the ‘Earth-day attack’ during homily, even if the priest decides to criticize it during Easter, is it right?”

That is essentially correct. As I’ve previously stated, I take issue with the way he applies a blanket solution to what should be a prudential judgement. You may think that’s a weak reason, but I believe it promotes dissent and disunity among the body of Christ to say “If your priest does X, IN ANY CONTEXT, leave immediately!”

Vermont Crank - Communion in the hand is not a grave scandal according to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Do you hold yourself as being more authoritative than the Pope?

As for Mark Shea being “toxic” and “nasty,” I think there’s a proverb about glass houses that you ought to remember.

Geez Louise, people, get a grip!  Mr. Voris is not always everyone’s cup of tea, substantively or stylistically, just as none of us is.  Tonight, you can go back on your Lenten abstinence from alcohol - have a beer and chill.

Mr. Shea, I enjoy reading your opinions, and I am not a Follower of Mr. Voris.  Still, it seems his video and your discussion of it have certainly touched a nerve.  It doesn’t necessarily follow that folks who are fed up with Strange Things in the Parish are therefore a bunch of Puritans who wish to separate themselves.  Usually the process of getting fed up follows a process of alienation which is bewildering to the average Catholic and not at all a place of preference or comfort.  I would even predict that the anger which the Voris defenders display is correlated to that.  I don’t see that their issue is with fellow, average Catholics, at all, but with leadership (priest or pastor) that sets a course or a tone.  I don’t see this as being about one group of Catholics wishing to feel better than another group so much as one group has become, in some places, entirely disenfranchised and it isn’t for decent or Christian reasons.  The results are entirely predictable. 
Like I said before, it isn’t sinful to recognize Earth Day.  At the same time there are Catholic places where Earth is sort of, well, worshipped.  If parish leadership does want to recognize or support Earth Day (or some appropriate environmental initiative from a Catholic perspective) how best to do this and still assure that all Catholics feel welcomed and respected?
It’s probably still a good aim for the universal Church to aim to have the sacraments celebrated consistently from place to place.  People have an expectation for this and Church documents say that Catholics, from every walk of life, no matter what their political interests or concerns, affiliations etc etc, have a right to these.  I think this back and forth about Voris and tribes misses the point which is that when there is inconsistency and where leadership in parishes embrace fads and trends along with that, chaos, backbiting and anger ensues.  It’s a pastoral issue and an issue of leadership, not Shea versus Voris, Catholic versus Catholic, Earthen friend versus Puritan.  I understand that you want to see on your blog who winds up hearing about Earth day (which is obviously not going to do anything since, some will be emboldened to talk up Earth Day and now some will be chastened to not mention it…the results will be here nor there…) but I think there are more constructive ways to go with this.  All those pewsitter folks who came with the pitchforks to your combox or whatever over the last week to defend Voris, well, they are your friends and seem to be in a tough spot for whatever reason.  I don’t see in these Voris defenders or Followers an especially unique or exaggerated interest in Puritanizing a flawed and mortal Church.  I grant you, there is no call for calling into question your sexuality or other things.  But bloggers and commenters all use funny language at times.  I think that there is an opportunity here for you in our Catholic blogosphere and I’m interested to see where it leads. Best regards.

“My question is, why is it acceptable for Michael Voris to engage in hyperbole, but when Mark Shea does so it is a mortal sin?”
**Because this silly teapot tempest is mostly a matter of tribal allegiances.**

Mark,

I think you’re onto something there, but not in the way you might think.

The tribal allegiances has nothing to do with Michael, it’s about the tribal allegiances to Bishops - even when they are doing serious harm to the flock and to Christ’s Church.

  There’s been a secret code not to criticize the American Bishops or hold them accountable and that ceiling is being cracked.  No matter what dereliction or abdication of duty, no matter how unsound, corrupt - no matter how many children are being abused, no matter how far this internal schism gets in deceiving souls - anyone who makes any headway in holding the Bishops accountable - the tribe starts to circle the wagons of the whistle blowers.

When it comes down to a choice of listening to somebody warning naive people or those unaware of what is going on to scamper on down the road if your priest is pinning your soul to Al Gore’s mission instead of Sanctifying Grace - your screed countered that warning by telling people not to listen to that warning because it didn’t come from a bishop.

Do you realize how crazy that sounds to those of us who know what is going on?

I’ve thought about it, and in all sincerely, I can’t come up with a good faith reason why you would misdirect unsuspecting Catholics, especially if they are parents, knowing the status of the United States Episcopal Conference. 

Our parishes and our schools are locked up tight under the leadership of theological miscreants.  Knowledge about sin, good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, truth vs. lies, the imperative nature of keeping our minds sharp and our soul intimate with the Holy Spirit - and how to accomplish it—has nearly eradicated. 

A man with a spine finally stands up to break the code of silence and warn the faithful and you warn them not to listen? 

As a Catholic whose concern is with salvation and the Deposit of Faith - I am flabbergasted by your piece. 

God Bless you in this Holy Week and always.

“Okey doke.  If you leave your parish merely because a priest mentions Earth Day,”

Mark - numerous people have clarified that wasn’t at all what it was about.  I’m sure you don’t mean it, but the continued minimization of it is coming off as intellectual dishonesty.

It was about a real movement afoot to paganize our Holy Season of Easter—and the reality that any priest who would do such a thing has huge problems.  Moreoever, the souls sitting in a parish with such a priest are in spiritual danger.

I hail from the left bank of the U.S. - out here many things are “normal”.  In my parish I am known as “Marv the Blunt” - having a style not unlike Michaels.  I am NOT, however, anywhere near Theologian.  But even to a fool like me, it should be apparent that with very few going to confession, and many going to Communion, something is wrong.  If you believe the stats, about 75% of Catholics attending Mass do not actually believe in the Real Presence.  Would you seriously approach God, your creator wearing hip huggers and crop tops?  I see girls ( and older women who wish they still WERE girls) recieving communion dressed in that fashion And the guys, hhm, not any better.  So, should people like Michael soften their approach?  Should Corapi be more gentle?  I sure hope not.  We allneed to understand that this time on earth is less than an eye blink in Eternity - and we’re fritering it away with a silly egotistical lifestyle.  No, I think Michael and his ilk are very controlled in their presentation.  Gai worship is quite simply Pagan.  Abortion is Murder, and contraception closes the door to the closest thingany of us normal people can come to a Miracle.  No, my friends, Michale and John are EXACTLY what we need.  they are the swat on the back of the head, like Gibbs in NCIS, a wake up, not a humiliation.
Marv

Carol:

Since the Triduum has not actually arrived yet, we don’t actually know that the Pagan Easter foretold by Mr. Voris is going to materialize.  So before we commend the courageous whistleblowers and their exposure of all the Gaia Worship, perhaps folks would like to take up my offer of a forum to talk about what actually happens at their parish this weekend.

Personally, I expect that the main problem will be that the average parish will be average, not pagan.  That averageness seems to be a huge indictment in the eyes of some (and we can certainly discuss the averageness of average parish life).  But until I see the actual evidence of a “Pagan Easter” spreading across the American Church, I don’t regard Mr. Voris as a “whistleblower” about this matter (which, you know, hasn’t happened yet) but merely as a Chicken Little.

There are enough problems in the Church (and I’m quite aware that some bishops are part of that problem, though I’m more troubled by the fact that *I* am part of that problem).  Why borrow trouble by getting all angry and accusatory against clergy about a problem that hasn’t even happened yet?

</i>Mark - numerous people have clarified that wasn’t at all what it was about.</i>

No.  Numerous people have attempt to pretend, on the basis of no evidence, that Voris was using hyperbole, despite the fact that many of his defenders have boasted about taking his advice and leaving their parish forever, due to their being “clapping fornicators”, wretches who receive communion in their “grubby hands” and miserable sinful priests who “turn their back on God” by sinfully celebrating the wrong rite as approved by the Enemy Church and her Enemy bishops.

They have also, by the by, staunchly defended the use of “bluntness” when it comes to criticizing Those Catholics Over There who are the Enemy, while demonstrating remarkably thin skin about blunt criticism of Mr. Voris’ reckless language and the even more reckless language of his defenders.

When I talk to more Voris defenders who do not radiate “I love the Church, but can’t stand most actual Catholics” I will be less concerned about the sin of factionalism that seems to lie at the heart of this stuff.

Mark,

If you are trying to say that across America Our Holy Season of Lent isn’t paganized every year, my experiences with it make it impossible for me to be gullible to your thesis.  We had a priest here who brought garbage into the sanctuary and threw it about in an earth day homily.  Another time, he brought a gun with blank bullets and shot it off.  A few months back, we put the kibosh on a medium who advertised that she would speak to your dead relatives.  She had already done it in several parishes.

Knowing what it’s like to be a blogger and have your inbox filled with stories about what is going on out there, I wonder if you are opening up and reading those emails or if they really don’t come to you like they do the rest of us.

For whatever reason, you are minimizing the awareness being raised.  Frankly, it’s troubling.

Thanks, Mark. I understand your point and concerns. Taken in the wrong way, Mr. Voris advices can stimulate factionalism, I can agree with that. Against me, however, I need to tell you that I failed in my young days when I should have left my parish when the priest, during Mother’s day weekend, a long, long time ago, decided to change the “Our Father” to “Our Father/Mother who art in Heaven…”, and started digressing about, guess what, mother earth and related stuff. So, when Mr. Voris talked about the Earth Day thing I was certainly prepared to agree with his take on it - and I still agree, since my personal experience shows that other errors were present in my old parish. For example, the priest over there refused to attend individual Confession and only provided a “Communitarian Reconciliation”, where everybody get together, thinking about their own sins, and, after some made up stuff that he says to help our “recollection”, he gives absolution. This is the kind of non-orthodox behavior I was presented as orthodoxy when I was younger.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree about Mr. Voris particular point on this one, but I really believe he is sincerely trying to be helpful. I’m sure he can count with your and mine prayers.

Mark, I’ve read your screeds. LOL.  Shall I go about and take clips of your hyperbole? 

Pot, meet the kettle.

Some of us like hyperbole.  If they didn’t you wouldn’t have much of an audience.

While Michael uses dramatic language about the things he is working on, there is not an ounce of exaggeration about the state of affairs in our parishes and in our schools.

Are you part of the tribalism for Bishops?  Yes.  And, you know well the reason why, as anyone who relies on Catholic donors knows the reason why. 

This apostolate is needed.  It is needed for the naive Catholics who don’t realize what is going down—and what will happen to the souls of their children if they bring them to an apostate priest week after week for years. 

There are enough donors now who have experienced it that are willing to do something about it.  Mothers and fathers are very, very grateful for it.  You won’t do it and you can’t do it in the position you are in. 

Stop underestimating what is going on to try to silence those who are finished with the code of silence.

Carol:

Yep.  I get the emails.  But I’m also aware that they are, like headlines about cannibal Germans and claims of a ten percent homosexual populations, sent to me because they are a) exceptions to the norm and b) the focus of people who tend to want to exaggerate things for reasons of their own.  I think the problem is that the average parish is average, not pagan.  Encouraging factionalism is not the solution to dealing with those who encourage liturgical nuttery.

Carol:

I don’t care about hyperbole.  I enjoy it myself.  So did our Our Lord.  I just don’t think Voris is using hyperbole when he urges people to leave their parish on a flimsy provocation.  I think he is being reckless.

I agree 100 %.

It’s one’s own free choice to watch or not to watch Mr. Voris whether on Realcatholictv or in-person at an event.  His style will appeal to some who are more of a conservative persuasion and be resented by those who lean toward the liberal bent.  If you don’t like him… don’t watch.  That’s diversity.  I myself would not enjoy listening to a pro-abort lesbian speak at a Catholic event (which recently happened in Scranton).  Why is the avowed homosexual lady welcome to speak on Catholic property yet Mr. Voris isn’t?

Mark,

Reckless?  No provocation?

Are you really ignorant about what is going on in parishes and schools across the United States?

What has been reckless is the silence. 

For a minute - detach from your emotions about it and fly about ten miles above it to the strategy level.  I’m not speaking for Michael Voris or his apostolate - but as a Catholic.

Do you know what happened to Humanae Vitae and Evangelium Vitae?  The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

When priests started to teach it, there were walk outs.  The Bishops, scared that the wallets were going with the people walking out, silenced these teachings.  We’ve been sitting there waiting for it to come back for forty freeken years.  We’ve tried everything else to bring it back. We’ve tried begging at ever level all the way up to the Vatican.  We ask them to act upon the most egregious things - etc.  They are so overwhelmed over there it is impossible to keep up with.  We’ve got to do something ourselves or we will lose another generation.  Frankly, without Sanctifying grace - there will be no movement anywhere and the Bishops have that under lock and key. (Of course there are exceptions which do not apply).

More pancake breakfasts and hosting listening sessions with dissidents instead of the system of sanctifying grace is not going to fly. We need to get families into parishes to learn the authentic faith - get some sanctifying grace going in our parishes and communities—and start building.  It is an dereliction of our baptismal call to keep pretending we don’t know what is happening to these families.  The gig is up.

The beauty of this strategy is that it is a double edged sword because the Bishops system is based on the money in our wallets.  It won’t take long for them to start lifting the prohibitions on Church teaching. It will take less than that to make a phone call to tell Fr. Al Gore to cut the crapola.  This is the system and we are going to work with it.

For years, other Catholics have circled our wagons when we’ve tried this.  It is shocking, I’m sure, for you to feel the pushback. But if comes to a choice between letting other Catholics intimidate and telling them sit down and shut up, the latter is what will go down.  If it gets ugly, so be it. We have our eyes fixed on Christ and our children.  I’m pretty sure there are more of us now than Bishop protectors so we’ll let the chips fall where they may.

Reckless?  No provocation?

No.  Reckless and *flimsy* provocation.  As I already said once but will repeat in the flickering hope that somebody will listen and not just jerk the knee, “I say this as somebody who has, myself, been forced to move parishes to protect my family from tommyrot.  I have no problem with moving when nonsense is really endangering souls.  But I have a big problem with teaching people to treat legitimate theological variety as though the Church should be divided into the Enemy 99% vs. the Pure 1%, with the Pure 1% looking for shibboleths to give them a hair-trigger excuse to flee their parish in contempt.”

Merely mentioning Earth Day is not just cause to sever communion with your parish and priest.  It’s thin-skinned reactionary panic.  There is enough trouble in the Church without borrowing this sort of trouble.

By the way, note your language here, Carol:
It is shocking, I’m sure, for you to feel the pushback. But if comes to a choice between letting other Catholics intimidate and telling them sit down and shut up, the latter is what will go down.  If it gets ugly, so be it. We have our eyes fixed on Christ and our children.  I’m pretty sure there are more of us now than Bishop protectors so we’ll let the chips fall where they may.

The message, loud and clear, is that I am the Enemy, part of some Powerful Evil Force in the Church that fears “pushback”.  Which is, you know, the point of what I’m warning about when I talk about factionalism. FWIW, I don’t consider you or even Voris my enemies.  I consider you fellow Catholics who are, on this occasion, advocating the sin of factionalism.  However, since I sin too, I don’t think it’s my business to treat you as enemies, merely as people who screw up and need the grace of God as I do.

Mark, 

You keep going back to what Michael said instead of focusing on the substance of what is happening in our schools and parishes. 

It is really pathetic to imply Catholics are overreacting to minutia. Insulting, really, to those of us who have spent twenty or more years doing everything we could to get them to stop the madness and/or teach our religion to our children.  You are acting like you are ignorant of the twenty years of attempts that have worse then fruitless.

Michael is raising an army.  People who raise armies use hyperbole and drama.  They go overboard so that weaker people will see it isn’t so bad to stand up to the pushback or to have Lisa Grass, Liz and Mark Shea reject you—and keep on going.  He is clearing a path that has never been cleared and God Bless him for him.  We have been waiting for this for a couple of decades. 

It is a looser to continue to fire grenades at it Mark.  Our families need, as you knew you needed, to mosey on down the road.  Many are so uncatechized that they do not realize what is happening.  Or, they are stupidly dropping their kids off at CCD to be formed by Nancy Pelosi types because they want to chat with dissenters - thinking they can convert them. 

Find something else to pick on because you’ll end up under the bus.  We’ve all had enough of it.

Have a blessed Holy week.

Dear Mr Shea.

Not being one of Mr Voris’ subscribers, I messaged Mr Voris about this whole hullabaloo and he informed me that your reading of what he said (the dont use your common sense and just leave if he says the word ‘earth’” reading) was simply false.

He emphasized the need to nevertheless be vigilant against those pastors that would give into messages from such stupid organizations. He is telling people to simply not allow priests who would say such pagan things to get away with saying them. 

This was my first impression and I really canot see why you are so aggressive against Voris when you have far worse enemies to contend with like those fellows at the non catholic NCR.

p.s. I don’t see you as an enemy or some evil force - nor do I think anyone else does.  I greatly enjoy your work.  You are smart, bright, funny - sometimes caustic - especially when you are mad—and I eat it up.  So do others. 

All I’m saying is, this is a different ministry and it is sorely needed.  You can’t do it.  Nor can anyone else to it with donors who want to protect the Bishops - the old dying breed.  You apostolate is important.  Let us do our work.  We are on the same team.

Our parishes and schools are in trouble—and our families can’t keep dropping their kids off to be indoctrinated.  It’s time to clean it up by walking out with our children adn our wallets.  We didn’t make the system, we don’t even agree with the system—but we love Christ too much to keep on going like we have been.

Christ’s peace and love.

You keep going back to what Michael said instead of focusing on the substance of what is happening in our schools and parishes.

Right.  Because I don’t have any objection to dealing with real ills in our schools and parishes.  That’s why I was careful to note in my blog that Voris appears to provide a lot of valuable information and said “More power to him”, something nobody seemed to notice.  Why did they not notice it?  Because, like you Carol, they leapt to the conclusion that I was an Enemy who needs to be defeated because of the one thing I did question, namely the encouragement of the mindless factionalism that you are displaying along with a lot of other readers.

So, to repeat: I have no problem with opposing real ills in our parishes and schools.  What I have a problem with is training readers to say, “He mentioned Earth Day!  I’m outta here!”  It teaches people to regard those with slight differences as Enemies and not brother and sister Catholics and to write things like:

It is shocking, I’m sure, for you to feel the pushback. But if comes to a choice between letting other Catholics intimidate and telling them sit down and shut up, the latter is what will go down.  If it gets ugly, so be it. We have our eyes fixed on Christ and our children.  I’m pretty sure there are more of us now than Bishop protectors so we’ll let the chips fall where they may.

...though a small criticism is sure fire proof that the critic is part of a vast force of evil enemies in the Church conspiring to crush a small but valiant remnant of Real Catholics.

You’re not my enemy, Carol.  And I’m not yours.  Have a good Easter.

Carol:

Thanks for that last post.  I appreciate it.  Have a truly wonderful Easter, my sister.

btw - if there is any ‘faction’ going on, we’re lining up behind the people behind the Pope who is behind Christ.  We’re leaving the cult of personality parishes teaching our children to live their lives by being nice to people and picking up litter - instead of learning how to stay in a state of grace. 

In the end, you are the one behind a faction.  :O)

I messaged Mr Voris about this whole hullabaloo and he informed me that your reading of what he said (the dont use your common sense and just leave if he says the word ‘earth’” reading) was simply false.

No.  My reading was a direct quotation of his words.

He emphasized the need to nevertheless be vigilant against those pastors that would give into messages from such stupid organizations. He is telling people to simply not allow priests who would say such pagan things to get away with saying them.

Except that’s not what he said.

This was my first impression and I really canot see why you are so aggressive against Voris when you have far worse enemies to contend with like those fellows at the non catholic NCR.

I don’t consider Voris or the average writer for the Reporter “enemies”.  I consider them members of the Catholic Church, brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I have sundry disagreements.  Your choice to label them “enemies” illustrates everything I am trying to point out concerning the fleshly sin of factionalism Voris (and, frankly, the Reporter) encourages and how poisonous it is.

I am so excited to see articles and commentary like this. I can sense the “creative liturgists”, the liberal music ministers, and the new age DRE’s, and the “wobbly at the knees” pastors are on the ropes.

Keep the discussions going and enough will soon wake up and realize their hard-earned contributions should be more precisely directed - to a real parish, or resource.

Media from these resources are a great way to support the real faith and learn at the same time: www.RealCatholicTV.com, and www.FatherCorapi.com, and www.Catholic.com

Mark,

Wast that sincere?  :) 

I hope so!

p.s.  After forty years of experiencing the drivel—I never, ever saw any priest who spoke about ‘earth day’ teach or preach the teachings of the Church.  Never.  Priests who are faithful have way too much teaching that needs to be done and little time to do it.  Nobody in good faith would waste precious time talking about picking up litter.  This is where your whole theory crashes.  But I love you anyway.  Cheers.

Carol:

Dunno if he’s done it, but I can easily imagine Fr. Robert Barron using Earth Day as a launch pad for an insightful and completely orthodox homily.  And since I’ve written rather extensively about our relationship with the natural order when writing about both contraception and the Blessed Mother (see my chapter on the dogma of the Theotokos in Mary, Mother of the Son) I can also imagine myself talking about it too.  The Fathers of the Church and St. Paul certainly see no problem with talking about the sacredness of the created order.  If you can take a pagan monument to the Unknown God as a launch pad, you can certainly take Earth Day.  However, I doubt most will mention it at all.

I’m not sure which post you were asking was sincere.

All I know is one week before the last presidential election, our priests were on retreat.  The visiting priest gave a Sunday homily about recycling plastic bags, he even brought a plastic bag to show us.  I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.  I think the point Michael Voris was making, was if any priest were to accept the suggestion in the earth day letter and detract from the glorious celebration of the Resurrection of Christ by turning it into an earth day appeal, chances are, that priest most likely has a greater interest in something other than leading souls to Christ and that for the good of souls, including one’s own and one’s children, perhaps one might consider high-tailing it to a parish that has at least enough Catholic devotion left to actually dedicate their devotion to the One who rose from the dead, rather than devotion to the earth from which He rose. 2+2=4 whether you proclaim it boldly or gently, and it will never equal 5 no matter the protest.  God bless!

I like suppositions but still, it’s hard for this Catholic to imagine. For a lot of reasons.  Hows about you ask him and get back to us? 

Solid priests are allergic to drivel. 

You can imply from the 40 year history and from the context of Voris statement that if a priest used earth day and identified it as pagan, it’s being used in the right context.  That’s reductio ad absurdum. 

Think good faith and good will.

When I started to want to have God back in my life, and that of the family I had, a wife and two young boys, it was a journey that took me in various directions - several different Protestant type churches, another that turned out to be witch craft, unbeknownst to my wife and I, having been invited by an attractive couple we just met.  I got us out of that right away.  Then a business associate invited us to Easter service at their Lutheran Church which the wife and I attended.  Throughout all the Protestant churches we visited, I found good things about them but felt “incomplete” even after the Lutheran Easter service which is very similar to a Catholic Mass.  I realized after that that my experience in the Catholic faith I was brought up in had all those good things plus so much more.  I decided to return to the Church of my youth and early college age - the Catholic Church.  I took my wife and family to the closest Catholic Church to us for Mass one Sunday, and to my astonishment heard something that made me get up immediately, turned to my wife and children and told them “We’re leaving, now.”  It occurred during the Homily when the pastor said that the poor in China are better off now under Communism than they were before the Communist take over. I must have sent a letter to the bishop about what I heard from the pulpit because I wound up having a meeting with that pastor in his office with another one of his priest present.  When I came into his office, he stood up behind his desk, walked over to me and poked his pointed finger into my shoulder demanding to know in an angry voice why I wrote the bishop.  I don’t remember much after that other than I wasn’t going to win an argument with him and just left.  I found a better Catholic Church a few miles further away where my wife and children were baptized.  So, I know what it feels like to be in a Catholic Mass where the pastor/priest has another agenda other than the truth.  The interesting thing was nobody other than me and my family was offended by what that Communist apologist priest said and walked out.

As far as “earth day” the reason for a homily, if it is to glorify it like the trailer I saw at the movie theater showing Atlas Shrugged last Friday night, I’d probably stand up, purposely look at the homilist, and walk out unless it happened to be used to make a more serious point on where our hope and faith is, in which case I’d sit and listen.  But I certainly wouldn’t stay and listen to a pagan homily on the earth.

Mr. Shea,
I’m finding your accusation about Michael Voris being a factionalist very difficult to buy, if not straight hypocritical.  You appear to propose a faction as well; one in which we exercise comparatively little common sense or apply little, if any context, to a man’s comments.

Most people reading these pages have been around the Church for quite some time.  We know Her human foibles, we know how the liturgy (Mass) has been abused.  We understand quite well precisely what Mr. Voris means, even when he doesn’t say it explicitly.

Why on earth do people have such an interest in defending Earth Day in Mass on Easter Sunday?  Yes, stewardship of the planet is important.
Guess what?  Saving my immortal soul trumps Earth Day easily!

Mr. Voris, understood in context, used one of his daily videos to comment upon the error running rampant in the Church:  That tendency of many priests to preach upon subjects matter that’re almost completely irrelevant.

What priorities do we wish for our clergy to address?
It’s true enough that environmental concerns can contribute to the staet of one’s soul.  It’s also true that the environmental movement has been fussing over the earth for at least two decades.  ..And suffering a hernia any occasion that a man’s soul takes precedence over the earth’s trials.

I’ve watched The Vortex many times and understand very well what Mr. Voris tyipically wishes.  I think it safe to assume that he’s as disgusted with homilies about the birds of the sky and the beasts of the field as I am.

Let’s worry about the state of our soul on Easter Sunday.

Earth Day can wait until this summer, if it needs to show up at all.

“Flanderification”: LOL!  Thanks. Down with the Emperor’s New Clothes!

What do people criticize the leadership in the Catholic Church for the most?  If you go to the holocaust in Germany, the criticism is that Catholic leadership did not boldly speak out more.  If it is about the homosexual abuse scandal with young boys, it is often that the leadership not only concealed the abuse and moved abusers around, but that they did not speak out boldly condemning these acts and stopping them.  When we hear criticism for speaking out boldly, it usually comes from those who want to dissent from church teaching and to do whatever feels good.  They have a moral standard called tolerance which means do not speak out boldly on anything except what liberals decide is the politically correct thing to do.  When we follow that advice, we lose.  Frankly, I think that this was a major factor in the abuse scandal.  Had bishops pointed out that 81% of the abuse was happening when homosexual priests addicted to going after teenage boys the crowd of tolerance would have screamed homophobic rants.  Even now faced with documented proof from the jay report, many want to ignore the facts.  As I remember the beginning of AIDS, it was not politically correct to say it was homosexual behaviour related as we would have with any other epidemic. 

We are seeing the same thing in South Africa today.  The left and the media really cried out on apartied for years.  When asked what might happen if this was ended and we had black rule, no one would admit there might be a problem if this happened and that going slow with the changes made sense.  having invested all their capital to win the battle and get Mandela elected president, there can be no honest look at the results now more than a decade old.  The UN has labeled S Africa the rape capital of the world.  Murder rates are way up including brutal torture/rape/killing of whites on S African farms.  Over a million whites have fled.  Car jacking is common place.  Unemployment is a huge problem and we see roving gangs high on alcolhol and drugs day after day doing whatever they want.  Rape is common now and sex of 6-7th grade girls is huge many started with rape.  Rape of babies is even growing as the Aids epidemic is so bad that rumors of healing if you rape a virgin have led to babies being raped in their first year of life. Yet the media remains silent to the crys of those being attacked and murdered, black and white.

Jesus also said: “Unless you are born again, you will not come to the Kingdom of Heaven!”  “Oh No”,said some people,“You live only once, so that is “Born again Christian!” Jesus did not know that of course..

Dear Mr. Shea. “Since the Triduum has not actually arrived yet, we don’t actually know that the Pagan Easter foretold by Mr. Voris is going to materialize.”

Once again, you are distorting what he did.  You seem incapable of getting it right when it comes to this issue.He did not fortell a single thing. He warned Christian Catholic Pew Denizens about a pagan campaign instituted by fools and he told people how they ought respond.

As to the sin of “factionalism,” I have never heard of it and so I checked around a bit. The word does not appear in The Catholic Dictionary; the word does not appear in The Catholic Encyclopedia; the word does not appear in Thomas David Williams, “A Textural Concordance of the Holy Scriptures,; the word does not appear in Spirago and Clarke’s, “The Catechism Explained,”;the word does not appear in “Examination of Conscience” in my Father Lasance, “The New Roman Missal,: the word does not appear in, ” The Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

The word, faction, does appear in “The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy,” and it is defined as; “A group formed to seek some goal within a political party or a government. The term suggests quarrelsome dissent from the course pursued by the party of government majority; “His administration is moderate, but it contains a faction of extremists.”

Well, if you are not man enough to accuse Mr Voris of schism then you have to fall back upon political categories.

When it comes to this issue, I am going to stand with Mr. Voris who, as an earlier poster noted, has said that your reading of what he said is “false.”

Now, you could man-up and write or speak with him directly but I do not think you will do that. You will continue to insist you know better than he what he meant and what he intended. That is your track record with other men and with other issues and that is a record solely of your own creation.

This thread was started by Pat Archbold but Mark Shea has sure weighed in a lot.  My family have been blessed by being resident in fairly orthodox Catholic parishes.  We have only briefly experienced the “weird ones” and pity those who reside in those areas.  Sadly, they are not rare.  It is only by contrast with the “weird ones” that I can say our more orthodox parish(es) are good ones. I wish they were more orthodox and maybe then they would actually be inspiring.  I think Mark can accept the behavior of the “weird ones” because he wants to believe they are less common than they are and because he thinks they are less of an evil than others posit.  That Mark sometimes lives in a world too much of his own making has been shown in other posts of his, especially when it comes to his fantasy world about that brutal subject, war.

Pat, I just have to say that I completely agree with you. The recent infighting is ridiculous to say the least. Voris proclaims the truth with no nuances and no sappiness. To that I say, “Bravo.” If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

P.S. if my pastor “breathed a word about Earth Day” on Easter Sunday I would probably compose a letter about the Eugenic agenda behind the Global Warming scheme and then leave the parish. I just could not justify tithing to a Catholic parish who promotes such evil.  We have a right to choose our parish; what is the big deal?

I don’t know a thing about Voris, but I do know about Gore & what he bows down to and it is not Holy. “pope” Ted Kennedy is gone and it is about time for his American “catholic” church, along with the useless USCCB, to also leave and for ALL bishops, priests, nuns and us laymen to rejoin the Roman Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit has awakened from the dead as told by the prophet Joel. We need to pray for our Shepherds that they will once again be MEN of God, and not mouth pieces for whatever is blowing in the wind. How many of us have the option to run from church to church and what would that solve? The problem starts with the Bishops and this is where it has to stop. Pope John Paul told our Bishops to get back to the poverty of the Church and away from the politicians, but they chose not to listen to him, but, instead, they obeyed their “pope” (Kennedy), and now look just what has happened. A dict posing as president, more churches shutting down and “Catholics” still using birth control, supporting “sex education” in schools (Catholic/public) and the homosexual activists shoving their filth on to all of us. Most of the posts above were great, especially from GHU. Blessed Mary warned us at Garbandal that many Cardinals, Bishops and Priests are on the road to perdition and are taking many souls with them, so PRAY! PRAY!PRAY! and don’t leave your church until you tell your Pastor why (unless, of course, his sermon is against the teachings of the Church-leave right then, after you speak politely why you are running out).  Come Lord Jesus, Come. +JMJ+

As to the sin of “factionalism,” I have never heard of it

“Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

Also known as “I am of Paul!  I am of Peter!” or “I am of Voris!  I am of Shea!”

Blessed Mary warned us at Garbandal ...

No.  She didn’t.

The only factionalism Mr. Voris is supporting is that between paganism and Catholicism.  Long live that factionalism!

Geez!  Am I the only one who had to look up Ned Flanders?  I do not spend my time watching the Simpsons!  Who is the intended audience of this piece?

Geez!  For what audience was this piece written?  Excuse me if I had to look up Ned Flanders—I do not watch the Simpsons!

Good Morning, SR,
*grins*  Perhaps we’re all showing our age with the Ned Flanders bit.  I haven’t watched the Simpsons in a long time, but I’ve heard the term before.  Given the nature of the Simpsons, it’s not surprising to see a term arise from it that reflects something rather negative regarding American or Catholic culture.

Dear Mr. Shea. This is the last time I am going to publicly correct you because it is quite clear you do not have the humility to hear others when you are in the midst of an argument.  The plan and simple truth is the word faction does not appear in the lines of Galatians you quoted. You slyly tried to imply it is in there but it is obvious that is not what is being discussed.

Reliable exegesis - from Cornelius A Lapide to Haydock to Dom Orchard to The Navarre Bible all publish an exegesis that has zip to do with your personal opinions about the Biblical Text in question.

Douay Rheims:

19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, ? Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.

Here is the exegesis according to Cornelius A Lapide:

Ver. 19.—The works of the flesh are manifest. The works that spring from the flesh, i.e., from concupiscence, as I said in the note to ver. 17.
Fornication. On the works of the flesh in detail, see Jerome, Anselm, and S. Thomas.
Uncleanness. Effeminacy. The effeminate are guilty of mutual pollution, contrary to the instincts of nature.
Lasciviousness. Any wanton, and, according to Jerome, extraordinary form of lust. He adds: “The works of the married even, if not done with delicacy and modesty, as in the sight of God, and if merely for the procreation of children, come under the Apostle’s description of uncleanness and lasciviousness.” This, of course, must be understood of mortal sin; cf., e.g., the act of matrimony is performed otherwise than nature dictates, or if its consummation is purposely prevented; for then both are guilty of mortal sin, excluding them from the Kingdom of heaven. Otherwise lust in the married is only venial.
Ver. 20.—Wrath. Anger is the desire for revenge, and is a deadly sin when a bitter revenge is sought, or an object on which to bestow the angry feelings. It is venial only when it is instinctive, or when it aims at some slight revenge. The Apostle, therefore, is dealing here with the various sins enumerated in their highest and extremest form, for it is then only that they exclude from the Kingdom of heaven (ver. 21).
Heresies. Acts of private judgment against the teaching of the Church. These evince great temerity and presumption.

Here is the exegesis according to Haydock:

Ver. 17. So that you[1] do not the things that you would. He does not say, so that you cannot do, as others falsely translate; as if men were under an absolute necessity of sinning, or doing ill; which is also contradictory to the foregoing words, walk by the spirit, and you will not accomplish the works of the flesh. (Witham)—- Here some suppose, says St. Augustine, that the apostle denieth that we have free liberty of will: not understanding that this is said to them, if they will not hold fast the grace of faith conceived, by which only they can walk in the spirit, and not accomplish the lusts of the flesh. (St. Augustine, in chap. v. Gal.)
Ver 19-21. Uncleanness, immodesty, luxury. In the Greek there are but two vices named; luxury is not mentioned; and, perhaps, the Latin interpreter put two words to explain one Greek word. (Witham)—- St. Augustine here sheweth that there are other damnable sins besides infidelity.

It is clear you do not have the courage to accuse Mr. Voris of heresy or schism so you fall-back on political categories which have zip to do with the traditional exegesis as explicated by traditional, time-tested, sources.

Mr. Shea. You are so deep in a hole of your own digging that I can barely see you. Stop digging, quit the controversy, and contact r. Voris your own self. It is no fun to see another assassinate their own character in public.

Now, you could man-up and write or speak with him directly but I do not think you will do that. You will continue to insist you know better than he what he meant and what he intended.

I’m sorry.  I’m confused.  Where you directing this at me or at Mr. Voris and his followers, who seem not to spend much time speaking directly to the Enemy Catholics they arraign.  They seem to know ahead of time, for instance, that this weekend will be a festival of pagan Easters across America without so much as having one shred of evidence for this beyond the fact that a fax machine was left on at the USCCB.  Perhaps instead of releasing videos in which such prophecies are uttered, Mr. Voris could, as you suggest, speak with the people he is accusing of paganism directly and find out if they plan on fulfilling his prophecy of a Pagan Easter.

Mr. Shea,
I have taught for many years in Catholic schools—at all levels.  Do you know how many Catholic schools celebrate earth day in a big way?  Do you know that the materials ( cd.s videos.music, plays and programs etc) used for these celebrations come from the secular publishers of science, social studies and literature books that are created to appeal to the kids and to form their sensibilities? These entities are seldom Christian friendly.
Do you know that every year I had to debate Grade 8 students or college students (all Catholic educated) on the issue that man is different from the animals?  Have you read the children’s or young adult literature around this theme? Do you realize that there is a proposal before the UN now ( being prepared) that the earth and animals be given the same rights as human beings? (This will work both ways:  we show mercy to wounded suffering animals.  Why would we not do the same for old, suffering people?) Do you know that our Catholic students very seldom have any sense of the splendor of the earth from a Catholic perspective? Do you know that because secular literature books are used in our Catholic schools, our students are deprived of the vision of our great writers, artists and poets.  Catholic kids are marginalized in their own Catholic classrooms.
The night is already far spent!  The time for schmoozing is over.  We need to dissent clearly, bluntly and with our feet.

Yes, SR, you are the only one who’s never heard of Ned Flanders.

What really amazes about this post is the way some Catholics are so upset at Voris’s delivery style. Why? Most of our great saints were men and women with blunt speach and sharp tongues. Is it really the delivery style or what’s being delivered that’s really ticking people off? I suspect it’s the later. Many Catholics, since Vatican II, are ignorant of sound orthodoxy or orthopraxy. So when a Voris comes along, it upsets their apple cart. These folks need to learn what the historic teachings of the faith are, instead of lashing out at Michael Voris.

MV is dividing. It didn’t work for Glenn Beck either.

I’d look to what the Pope says and what the Magisterium declares. Looks like the Pope is pushing us to think Green - ummm does MV have more sway than the Pope? Sedvacantists may think so?

MV is only bringing attention to those who have excommunicated themselves anyway and in terms of pre-Vatican II there were only TWO Vocations declared: 1)Religious 2)Marriage and as scripture says an obvious non-ability for some to be either. Singlehood is not a vocation but MV doesn’t want to discuss that in his style,,,,,

Wedding, if the TRUTH is dividing the believers from the non-believers, then so be it. MV isn’t running for Mr. Popularity. He has decided to take on an extended role from John the Baptist and tell it the way it is, whether it is popular are not. Just as Jesus stated, He did not come to earth 2000 years ago to be a peacemaker, but to divide those who accepted Him and His teachings from those who did not. You need to decide what side you want to be on, because this world is most definitely DIVIDED!!!

Dear Mr. Shea. Please stop. Really, you need the income from the sale of your books but who is going to buy them from such an individual like your own self who engages in the tactics you employ?

I know I wrote that I would not respond to you anymore but I assumed your friends would tell you to stop what you are doing publicly in here and that you would listen to your friends.

You continually claim that the warning Mr. Voris issued is a prophecy. You continue to dishonestly misrepresent what he said. This is a very sad thing that you are doing and the worst part of it is is that you appear to not even have the first clue that you are seriously damaging your reputation.

Good Lord, Mr. Shea. Stop it. Now!!!

OK, that is it from me. I won’t respond to you again. I have no desire to see you lose your stream of income, but that stream of income will slow to a trickle if you continue to do what you are doing. And that is the easiest “prophecy” a layman can make because it is just Common Sense. Your personal vendetta against Mr. Voris has blasted right past the indefensible and is now in orbit around Planet Lunacy.

Satan is laughing his socks off.  If you think he’s laughing at the “other guys,” you’re wrong.

Oh, my, the spamfilter word is “green15” LOL.

Wedding

There is pagan “greening.”  It involves goddess worship, population limitation through sterilization, euthanasia,
abortion, contraception an so on. This is “earth day” greening. A paltry man-made thing deriving from pride—Man is God.

There is Catholic “greening” which recognizes the creation of the earth by Almighty God,  and the redemption of all life and creation through the passion and death of Jesus Christ. This is what Benedict is talking about.  This is what the magesterium is teaching and has always taught.  In this view man takes his place in truth as a creature created by God and he comes with the earth to a glory that “eye has not seen”  This is what Michael Voris is talking about.
All “greening” is not the same, all worship is not the same, all religions are not the same…

Spot on!

Very well said Stephen.

Let’s try this another way?

Catholic apologist receives emails and messages from people who are scandalized by scheducled pagan event on Easter Sunday and asks you to help them stop it.

Pretty much an every day event in the life of a blogger or apologist.

check.

Apologist or blogger gets the word out so that the priests will know if they do it, they’re going to be under the microscope and may even end up with pictures and commentary all over the internet.

That’s proven itself to be a pretty effective way to put the kibosh on something scandalous.

check.

Why would anyone ever characterize this as some kind of personal ‘prophecy’?

Turning this act of righteousness into some kind of personal prelature to siphon a fan club away from Christ and His Church, is really bizarre. 
Especially when the detractors freely admit, they have packed up their families and walked out on a parish or a school. 

Catholic families who stay in a parish where a priest is not teaching the faith, is teaching some kind of pagan admiration of yourself or the trees and plants as the path to holiness,  or worse, teaching heresy, your children will naturally believe the man employed by the Pope and the faith may be undermined for the rest of their lives.  Get out and take your wallets with you. 

These are Christ’s instructions to you in Scripture and there is no getting around this substantive fact.  Nobody can be “nicer” or “wiser” than Christ.  Shake the dust from your sandals and get yourselves to a parish where a priest is teaching the faith properly.  If you are reluctant to go because you are a ‘Eucharistic minister’ or a ‘lector’ or you sing or serve in some other way—lay it down, give it up.  Christ will use your talents in another parish.

We have all tried 40 years of begging and writing letters. It is a useless exercise.  What works is walking out with our wallets.  The Bishops have been silencing the teachings of the Church to keep the money flowing.  We’ve been waiting 40 years for those teachings to return.  They will never come back until we cut off their oxygen.

Don’t let anybody convince you that this effort is something selfish or self-centered.  It is being done on behalf and for Christ. It is a rescue mission for the souls in captivity.

God Bless.

Hi Carol,
Well said.  I wish it didn’t need to be this way, but apparently it must.
While most people likely would understand this, I will add one caveat:  I would ensure that, if you need to switch parishes, confirm that the pastor remains in communion with the local bishop—and thus Rome.  We don’t want to compound problems by switching from one priest who’s arguably inflicting scandal to another who’s also inflicting scandal, but in a different way.

To Mark Shea and Karl Keaton: Too bad that your heads are in the sand and not on top of your shoulders, when it comes to Our Blessed Lady. YES! She DID warn us as Garabandal and the proof is in the pudding. Open your eyes and see what is going on in the Catholic Church and the destruction that was caused by the Bishops trying to destroy the works of the Holy Spirit with Vatican II. Most converts “see” better than cradle-catholics, but, you are not one of them. WE HAVE BEEN WARNED by her, time and time again, and thankfully you don’t speak for the Roman Catholic Church, so I will continue to listen to Her and not to you. Thank you Blessed Mother for caring so much about your children even though so many wish to be in denial.  Send Your Son, Jesus, to us now. +JMJ+

vermont crank said:

‘This is a very sad thing that you are doing and the worst part of it is is that you appear to not even have the first clue that you are seriously damaging your reputation.’

I disagree. His debating here has really impressed me considering how poorly he has been treated. Goodness, I could use some of the attacks in the comments on him as a meditation on the sorrowful mysteries! I think Mark has common sense. The most uncommon, sense. Also true Christian love. He is very gracious with all the insults being hurled at him, some below the belt. As for his masculinity being measured against MV’s and found wanting, I personally, find Mark’s more apparent (if that preference is allowed and doesn’t label me an enemy of Christ’s?). Michael always strikes me as someone I would to calm down (possibly even say ‘shush!‘to) as I do like to get a word in edgeways sometimes too! But hey, what would I know, I’m just a woman, an English one at that.

All-take a step back and think about it-almost everyone who has replied CARES about the Church, the Mystical Body Of Christ. I suspect among this ALL there are no saints, just a bunch of imperfect human beings, who ALL are concerned about US, the MBOC.Ignoring any ad hominems or ad mulierems and any bad manners that may have occurred, this is GOOD for the MBOC. Under neither hierarchy for decades [ie the pre-Vatican II Vatican hierarchy and the post-Vatican II in situ at parish hierarchies] this kind of debate/discussion/give-and-take among the laity DID NOT happen.  Just ask Job, good will come from all that we ALL have talked/ranted/cajoled about. guy mcclung, rockport TX

ps-I have never watched the Simpsons and I have no idea who “Ned” is.

.... who is Karl Keaton, and what does he have to do with this thread?

Guy, Do you really think it is the Church they care about? Since when is it a good idea for the sheep to lead the Shepherd?  Look at the signs of the times. P.S. Ned Flanders is a Christian who is too nice for Homer’s taste although he helps out Homer alot.  He does everything the “right” way and always has cheery, “Hidey Ho, Neighbor” type greetings.

Hmm-m… just another example of Catholic (?) commenters loving, teaching, correcting, helping, supporting, building-up, defending, and forgiving each other during Holy Week. Ahh-h… so nice to see the children behaving.

Garabandal is not recognized just like Marjugorie (sp).
Stop citing it as if it were authoritative.

I find this incredible:  A fairly well-known Catholic voice challenges his fellow faithful to actually expect their priests and pastors to focus on ..Catholicism..on Easter Sunday..and a whole bunch of people insist that he’s being divisive, arrogant, whatever.

Voris can be somewhat more..vigorous..than strictly necessary.  So what?

Look folks, through several years in the military and being aware of politics, I learned one thing:  The dialogue approach that our late Pope and St Maria Goretti advocated has not succeeded in converting this nation.  Nor even come close to it.  That approach might work in a case in which the nation has a fairly commonly understood idea of morals.
I should hope it’s plain by now:  We do not.

Whether it’s a decision about war, abortion, or something else, we need to make known to the nation that we insist on being heard in public and NOT being..frightened..about our view.

Until bishops begin to publicly deny communion to foolish politicians, politicians won’t care about morals.  Clergy may not be sticky unless we, the faithful, remind them that we’re attending Mass to receive God, Himself.  We may be forced to vote with our feet for those clergy who’re extra sticky about actually worrying about..the faith..on one of the highest celebrations of faith we have in our liturgical calendar.

I think the average person who considers the state of the Church in America can make sense of what Voris said.  That same average person may not like his presentation much, but will have immense trouble explaining how he’s wrong about something.

Let’s quit dithering about what’s most important.  Environmentalists, radical ones who make lots of noise anyway, DEFINITELY know what’s most important to THEM.  They’ll be only too thrilled to see us bow to their wishes.
Let’s not give them that much leverage in our sacramental life!

I’m going to laugh my butt off if my alma mater’s Good Friday service mentions Earth Day.

I like Voris. Sometimes.

The blunt TRUTH sometimes challenges us to choose: life or death.

Today we need complete Truth talkers who have courage to speak it!

It is not about anybody’s opinion; It is abot God’s opinion and complete obedience to it.

O that today you ‘hear God’s voice, harden not your hearts, God said.

It is true that Garabandal has not received “official” approval from the Vatican, but, what your Blessed Mother said, has been, if fact, come true. Just glances on the Internet should wake you up to what is going on in the Church, not only in the U.S. but through-out the world. Denial won’t cure or eliminate the problem, only it will increase this horrible plague that is upon us (unfaithful clergy, nuns, laymen). God have mercy on us.  +JMJ+

Dan,

Laugh your butt off?

Really?

Our brothers and sisters are being schooled by spiritual morons and heretics and you think the sight of it is funny?

That’s sick.  Laughing at car accidents would be a lesser crime against Christian empathy and love.

re: Garabandal—here’s the problem.  The devil works by first throwing out the bait to lure us in and once we’re secure on the hook, he’ll take an inventory of our weaknesses and then use them to trick us into sin.  He is so clever, it will appear innocuous. 

You’re hungry, why not eat the bread?  It’s an apple and it’s delicious, what’s the harm?  He’s cute and he loves you and God will forgive you.  It’s not a baby, you don’t have the money and you need to finish school.

Sure, some of the things said at Garabandal were accurate observations, but there were too many other concerns for the Church for it to be the supernatural qualities of the Blessed Mother.  You can’t say you follow the Church if they tell you it was the devil and his minions and you’re on here saying it was our Virgin.  It wasn’t. 

The Church acts very, very slowly before they make a move on an apparition.  If the hammer comes down, move on. 

We don’t need proof, a sign, to tell us about the smoke of satan inside of the Church.  It is before our eyes.  It is time to warn our brothers and sisters in these parishes and invite them to find a solid priest, settle down with their family to be schooled in the faith.

Those opposing the warnings, know not what they do.  Forgive them and let us continue on.  With more fervor than we had yesterday.

For anyone wishing to read up on Garabandal, below is some info that should put an end to any speculation about whether it was the Blessed Mother talking.

http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_030729.asp

“One of the locutions received by the children included the prediction that there would be only three more popes until “the end of the times.” The pope when that prediction was made was John XXIII. Then came Paul VI and John Paul I. Now we have John Paul II, who, being John XXIII’s third successor, is therefore the last pope.”

For anyone with doubts about the assertion the devil was deceiving at Garabandal should have ended with the election of Pope Benedict XVI.

Thankfully, there are many approved apparitions of the Blessed Mother to relish. 

Peace.

“I find this incredible: A fairly well-known Catholic voice challenges his fellow faithful to actually expect their priests and pastors to focus on ..Catholicism..on Easter Sunday..and a whole bunch of people insist that he’s being divisive, arrogant, whatever.”

Actually, no… Voris did not do that. What he did was tell Catholics to LEAVE THEIR PARISH if their priest so much as breathed the words “Earth Day” in ANY context.

I do find that rather divisive, arrogant, and unwise. If my priest uses his homily as an Ode to Gaia, then by all means I will leave and not return (very unlikely as my priest is very orthodox). If my priest uses the memo in question as an example of how stewardship in the context of Catholic Social Justice teaching has been hijacked by neo-pagans, and how Jesus died for them too so we should pray for their conversion, I’ll stay.

Michael Voris, however, would have me leave in both cases. THAT is what is divisive and arrogant.

“Michael Voris, however, would have me leave in both cases. THAT is what is divisive and arrogant.”
That was never the message I got, maybe I ought to watch that video again.

MuchoMacho,

No matter how many times you watch the video, there will be some who will serpentine around the facts that the movement is being orchestrated during our Holy Week and encouraged by a group that opposes Christ’s Passion and wants to replace Catholicism with the pagan.  They will also serpentine around the fact that if a priest receives the initiative and acts upon it, he is a fruit loop.  They will serpentine around the warning to the faithful about a priest who would take our holiest time of the year and engage in a protest mother earth, what has been happening for the last 20 years and actually encourage families to keep their children in parishes to be formed by the pagans—while they freely admit they have removed their own children from similar situations.  That is the kicker.

There were many who made a mockery out of Noah’s warnings to board the Ark.  But you sure have to have a lot of audacity to mock it to others while boarding it yourself.

Really, the unmitigated gall to pull out of a schismatic parish or school yourself to ensure yourself and your children of the practices of living in a state of Sanctifying Grace—while telling other families not to listen to the warnings of Catholics - is lunacy.

Our duty to lift the truth into the air has played itself out in these com boxes.  Let those who have ears, hear it. 

Get out of these parishes and find a priest who will teach and preach the Catholic religion, have Easter services, teaches the Catechism, sin from virtue and waits in the Confessional to restore your Sanctifying Grace.  The time is upon us.  Good, solid priests need us and your children need them.  Let the sorcerers and the clapping fornicators and tree huggers carry on and get yourselves back to the Catholic religion—like these folks did.

Peace out.

“Actually, no… Voris did not do that. What he did was tell Catholics to LEAVE THEIR PARISH if their priest so much as breathed the words “Earth Day” in ANY context.

I do find that rather divisive, arrogant, and unwise.”

I’m saddened you see it that way, JoAnna, but I don’t.  Like any commentator, if you follow what they say over a period of time, you can discern meaning from a message, even if it’s not explicitly stated.

“Michael Voris, however, would have me leave in both cases. THAT is what is divisive and arrogant.”

No, JoAnna, it isn’t.
Don’t forget, we’re not talking about the average, run-of-the-mill Sunday in Ordinary Time.  We’re talking about Easter Sunday.  Or Divine Mercy Sunday.
For my experience of the past 20 years, any time we allow a secular concern into the Church, that secular concern effectively trumps all else.  People obviously always need to exercise prudence and judgement.  They ALSO need to understand which priorities should carry the most weight.

Given that people have tended toward failing miserably in that last regard, Mr. Voris comments make sense.  Sometimes we need a jarring moment to kick us into gear.

If you (or others) are displeased by Mr. Voris’ comments, perhaps you’d be well advised to start asking why the bishops and their priests haven’t been sticky about more critical issues in the Church.  Had they been more rigorous about many concerns for some time, this might not be an issue.

“Like any commentator, if you follow what they say over a period of time, you can discern meaning from a message, even if it’s not explicitly stated.”

It’s very arrogant of Voris to assume that every single person who sees his message has followed what he says over a period of time. Would it be easier for him just to say what he means, and to mean what he says, instead of requiring layers of interpretation and subtext to accompany every message?

“For my experience of the past 20 years, any time we allow a secular concern into the Church, that secular concern effectively trumps all else.”

Stewardship of the earth is not a secular concern. It’s part of Catholic teaching.

“If you (or others) are displeased by Mr. Voris’ comments, perhaps you’d be well advised to start asking why the bishops and their priests haven’t been sticky about more critical issues in the Church.”

How do you know I have not? Seems rather arrogant of you to make such an assumption.

God has warned us about terrible earthquakes that will cause great destruction on the West Coast and now, because many people have had Masses said for God to spare the people, He is telling us that the destruction will be severe, but not as severe as He predicted. We are not required to listen to any messages that come from Heaven for the past 2000 years, but that doesn’t mean that the warnings will be nullified because of our stupidity! Misinterpretation of messages from Heaven is nothing new. Look at St. Francis, it took him a while to get his message right. Garabandal is real and alive, all you have to do is to watch the news or look around on the inter-net, and you will find too many of our shepherds falling into dis-grace bringing them blind, lazy catholics with them.  +JMJ+

No one respects a mushmouth.

I don’t know if you are deceived yourself or are simply with your back up against the way and the only way out is to deceive others, but it is a pathetic thing to watch.

One thing we can all be certain of, those who advocate for Catholics to stay in a parish with a priest who would ignore the celebration of Easter in a pagan protest, will have their fannies in a pew with the family in front of a priest who is celebrating the Triduum. 

That is what makes their advice so absurd.

JoAnna,
I understand your points, but I think you’re insisting that Mr. Voris make his comments with legalistic precision, for some reason.  I don’t think that’s needed.  Those of us who will understand, do so already, or will soon enough.  Those who don’t or won’t….

I agree that stewardship of the earth remains a part of Catholic teaching.  However, even if stewardship of earth contributes to or detracts from the state of one’s soul, it’s a considerably less significant contributor to your path to heaven than are other concerns.  Yes, there are exceptions.  So be it.  Most of us aren’t going to heaven or hell based on using plastic bags vs paper or plastic bottles vs glass.  Nor does cleaning up a park precisely contribute to your soul’s sanctity.  Not normally, anyway.

As well, I contend that Earth Day essentially constitutes a secular “holiday” precisely because it’s never based on any particular religious belief.  If anything, the environmental movement at large tends to throw a fit on any occasion we declare the safety of one human soul and/or life to be a higher priority than the safety of a ton of microbes.

Knowing this, I think mentioning Earth Day in a homily on Easter Sunday or Divine Mercy Sunday DOES constitute just cause for mental warning flags to go up.
For the record, I don’t care too much for homilies that discuss the SuperBowl or the latest exploits of the Nebraska Cornhuskers (for whom I’ll be a fan for life, I think).  Why would I want a priest to mention Earth Day?
It’s irrelevant except for the most extreme cases.

“As well, I contend that Earth Day essentially constitutes a secular
‘holiday’ precisely because it’s never based on any particular religious
belief. If anything, the environmental movement at large tends to throw a
fit on any occasion we declare the safety of one human soul and/or life to
be a higher priority than the safety of a ton of microbes.”

Good point.  See the following question.

Wasn’t “earth day” an idea started 30 years ago by a guy from Philadelphia who murdered his girlfriend and kept her body in a freezer for two years before being discovered, and who then fled to Europe and was hid out by environmentalist across Europe for years until eventually captured?

The quote I just posted was from John.

Anyone who disenfranchised the paganization of our religion from replacing the Crucifixion and Triduum with ‘earth day’ is made a fool of with the piece written by Jamie Manson at the National Catholic Reporter.

Here’s some excerpts:

“I’ve had more than one Catholic who grew up either before or on the cusp of Vatican II tell me horror stories of how they were taught that Jesus died because of their sins.
This was a particularly heavy-handed way for priests and nuns to lay an even thicker coat of guilt on impressionable Catholic school children. Because they were sinners, Jesus had to suffer and die to redeem them. It was one rendering of the traditional theological interpretations of the crucifixion—that Jesus had to die to fulfill the Scriptures and that his death atoned for the sins of the world.
hough many were told that experiencing God meant obeying laws and practicing empty rituals, Jesus told them that encountering God happens when we feed those who hunger, welcome the estranged, shelter the vulnerable, and visit the lonely.

It follows, then, that whenever God’s creation—whether it be human lives or the ecosystems of the earth—is unjustly harmed, God is harmed.
Whenever we harm ourselves or deny our own goodness, we wound God. Whenever we allow religious institutions to rob us of our dignity as unconditionally beloved children of God, God is put into a prison and degraded. Whenever we deny love or compassion to someone in need, or allow injustice to prosper, we deny God.
Whenever a creation of God suffers at the hands of greed, or the abuse of power, or hatred or fear, God is abused. Whenever a creation is killed, whether through our continued ravaging of the earth or through atrocities like genocide and war, God is crucified.”

This ends the charade.

Voris is awsome. My $10 a month is more than well spent on RealCatholic TV. Anyone who thinks he is over the top is simply a liberal weirdo and needs to seriously examine their spiritual life if they are questioning someone like Voris simply saying things like they are. If you have a liberal parish, you should leave and go where the gospel is preached. How could anyone argue with that! Yet the “Ned Flanders” Catholics seem content to sit there quietly in their pew for decades of “liturgical dance” and heresy from the pulpit while people are *GASP!* going to hell for lack of the true faith being brought to them by their Preist. Yeah, that’s right, H-E-double hockey sticks hell. Wake up and smell the brimstone liberal Catholics. There is no “choice” between earth day and the Easter Triduum! It is NOT a subject for debate. There is no “discussion” as to whether one can give light bulbs up for lent (a favorite of Voris). Calling liberals out on that is for their own good, to correct grossly bad judgement and what amounts to an attack on the Catholic faith.

At the end of the Day, with no mandatum, no imprimatur, and no discipline for those who profess to be Catholic while misrepresenting The Doctrine of Faith, if the Bishops are not willing to separate the wheat from the chaff, someone has to do it. It is time to bring back the charitable anathema for the sake of Christ and His Church. That being said, I am curious to know which parishes received the letters regarding the earth day homilies, and why someone would be so bold as to suggest that during Holy Week, we should turn our attention away from Christ?

Okay people enough!  It’s Good Friday!

Take a little break from criticizing others and blowing your own horns.  You can always get back to proving how much smarter and better you are than everyone else next week.

In the meantime… for your penance… pray this:

Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.

ED,

It was a busy day yesterday for Catholics, which I’m sure is the reason somebody else didn’t call you on this, but it really calls for a response:

Are com boxes some kind of way for you to prove how smart you are, instead of being driven by a love for souls, salvation and Christ?

For you to characterize the warnings of a prophet as some kind of effort to prove how much better one is than everyone else, in this hour, is dastardly.

Open The Catechism of the Catholic Church, and keep a copy of Fr. John Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary next to your reading chair, Mark Shea. and apprise yourself of living details of THE ONE TRUE FAITH.Its easy to personally bash people like Michael Voris, whom you don’t know, but the very words that he speaks that disturb your comfort level may be your conscience trying to awaken you from spiritual listlessness….Spend your time reading about the Catholic faith, instead of writing commentaries on a Catholic website

So.  Did any of this Pagan Easter stuff that Mr. Voris prophesied actually happen?

I don’t know.
If it didn’t, would that somehow undermine the value of what Voris warned against?

Yes.

”...dastardly.”

Hmm-m… now that’s not a word you hear very often.  As a matter of fact, I think the last time I heard that word was when I was out in the wilderness having a few brews with that famous Canadian Mountie Dudley Do-Right!

Thanks for the laugh Carol.

Happy Easter.

“So.  Did any of this Pagan Easter stuff that Mr. Voris prophesied actually happen?

I don’t know.
If it didn’t, would that somehow undermine the value of what Voris warned against?

Yes.”

Why?

Because poisoning people against their parish with the expectation that they were going to hear anti-catholic paganism so dire that they should leave their parish and never return when, in fact, nothing happened was an act that wounds the unity of the body of Christ.  It’s like Iago teaching Othello to assume that Desdemona cannot be trusted and is surely just about to cheat on him.  Planting such seeds of hostility and expectation of infidelity when, in fact, nothing was done wrong and there was no “Pagan Easter” as forecast deserves, at least, an apology from Mr. Voris.  I wonder if one will be forthcoming should the Pagan Easter he taught his fans to expect did not, in fact, materialize?

If people would be poisoned against their parish on these grounds, I’m thinking they’ve long since been poisoned by much more nonsense than this.  Keep in mind, he didn’t declare that anything would definitely happen; he warned us that it could and provided a pretty reasonable option regarding what we should do.
Considering that I HAVE quit attending Mass at one parish precisely because of liturgical dance and other abuses, I cannot imagine why Voris would need to apologize over this.
If anything, we ought to be thanking him for the heads up….

Keep in mind, he didn’t declare that anything would definitely happen

Then why bother making the video?  What sort of friend would you call the man who said, “I’m not actually going to come out and say that your wife is cheating on you, but if she wears that red dress to work then you should pull all your money out of the bank, change the locks on the doors, and file for divorce on Monday morning.”  If a paranoid husband take this advice and then finds out afterward that his wife has been completely faithful, what’s the sense of being grateful to the “friend” who sowed suspicion and hostility against an innocent person?

As I’ve already said several times, I have no problem with leaving a parish should there be real dangers to the Faith of my family from nonsense in the liturgy or the education.  But Voris was saying that merely “breathing a word about Earth Day” constituted Pagan Easter and creating a whole video in order to gin up the fan base in the expectation that this would be endemic.

In fact, nothing happened.  So why be thankful for a heads up about a non-existent problem?

You seem quite intent on placing meaning in Mr. Voris’ words that have been proven to be inaccurate.  I see no reason to insist that Mr. Voris acted as some prophet of doom.  Those who would understand his message have done so.

How about if we move on to the celebration at hand, the Octave of Easter?

KUDOS and GOD’s continued Grace to Voris and Fr Corapi (of whom I am a big fan!). These are people who are unafraid to proclaim the truth of Christ without watering it down. Young people like myself are HUNGRY for such truth and are more than frustrated with political correctness in teaching the doctrine of Christ!

ED,  I am not familiar with Dudley Do-Right.  Was he a real gum shoe?  I plead guilty to enjoying vocabulary and am glad you enjoyed it too. 

Mark, 

Here are two loons who tried to paganize the Triduum:

http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/crucifixion-helps-make-meaning-pain-church-world

http://asisterofstjoseph.blogspot.com/2011/04/earth-day-good-friday-unusual.html

This crap is happening everywhere.  It’s not like you don’t know things are bad because you’ve freely admitted to packing up your own family and moseying on down the road.

Again, I am not speaking for Michael, but on behalf of souls and Christ. Do you know how many things my troops were successful stopping by intercepting invitations and documents and getting out in front of it?

Does that mean to you, when it doesn’t happen, our warnings were ‘poisoning people against their parish’ or ‘planting seeds of hostility’?

That’s taking righteousness, done on behalf of Our Lord and turning it into something sinister. 

When folks here in Boston needed the help of Catholic journalists to get the word out about the abortion business the Cardinal was involving the diocese in, you wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.  And, you were in good company because most other Catholics wouldn’t touch it either because the Bishops, no matter what they do are protected within. Whether it involves rape or murder of our children doesn’t make any difference.  The demoralizing of families, the dismantling of 300 years of building a Catholic infrastructure, you warn people to stay put to be brainwashed or put their faith in Bishop Clarke of Rochester, Bishop Gumbleton.  When priests and nuns and schools paganized our religion over the last ten years doesn’t bother you.  It’s the people pointing it out, so naive people will understand what is happening to them, who are ‘wounding the Body of Christ’. 

Okay brother, but my mother did not raise a fool or a coward, so I pray you’ll forgive my forthright observation: This is the old Catholic game of undermining people who are calling out corruption.  The shunning of the whistleblowers. 

my word verification: feel18

I sure do!

http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Dilemma-for-Catholics-Earth-Day-Sunday-or-Easter/(source)/picks

Spend earth day the Catholic way - no mention here either that earth day falls on Good Frideay th where you Mark, were celebrating earth day venerating the Wood of Christ’s Cross in Good Friday services:

http://www.uscatholic.org/earth_day

How about this lemming from Ignatius Jesuit Retreat Center - I bet that’s a bastion of Sacramental grace and orthodoxy, eh - who’ll be celebrating earth day while the rest of us are receiving the indulgence of Divine Mercy Sunday (not to mention the graces of the beatification of John Paul II):

http://www.georgiabulletin.org/local/2011/04/14/ignatiushouseearthday2/

I don’t know which I’d rather believe, that you actually think the problem that sucked up a generation of Catholics doesn’t exist, or that this is a knee-jerk reaction because you’ve dug yourself so far into the hole.  Either way, it isn’t the smartest chain of thoughts I’ve ever read of yours. 

You do great work.  Go do it and let those of us called to another ministry do ours.  You can’t call out the corruption of priests and Bishops.  Families need to get out of these parishes and schools and plant themselves into places that are teaching the authentic faith and doling our Sacramental Grace instead of this tripe.  Saying this is wounding the Body of Christ is just plain old dumb.

Those of us doing this kind of work have spiritual direction - and from some pretty high-ranking priests and Bishops in the Catholic Church, all the way up to the Vatican.  We’re not shooting off our cannons wildly. It is prayerful and a great deal of discernment and discussion is going on behind the scenes. 

With the help of Christ and Mary, we’re going to suck the oxygen out of the rooms of these spiritual abusers.  They’ve eaten up enough souls. Sit down and shut up.  Peace of Christ.

I know if my priest has spent Good Friday talking about Earth Day I would have walked out. Haven’t we let the Ned Flanders run the Church for the past 40 some years? Haven’t we seen the results? From 75% of Catholics going to Sunday Mass to 25% or less. We see that Catholics are contracepting at over 80%. Catholics are aborting at rates as high as the secular culture. I see the Obama bumper sticks on Catholic cars. Catholics overwhelmingly voted to an abortionist supporter into the White House, and advertise their sin on their cars. Catholics support embryonic stem cell research at secular rates. Sounds to me that the major problem isn’t Corapi or Voris, it sounds to me like the problem is with the average Flanderish mealy mouthed parish priest and bishop unwilling to stand up and defend the faith. When 40%+ of Catholics support homosexual marriage the problem is not with those boldly proclaiming the truth of the Catholic faith, the problem is with those who do not.

“So why be thankful for a heads up about a non-existent problem”?

I am reminded of when The Bishops had the courage to warn about FOCA, and how those who refuse to recognize that every human life has dignity tried to recycle FOCA through The Health Care Bill when they knew their intentions had been exposed.

I subscribe to the premium channel offered by Michael Voris, and it is money well spent.  The declarative style of Mr. Voris does just that—he speaks clearly and he speaks accurately.  Anyone belonging to a local parish that, for whatever reason, doesn’t offer enough instruction in the Catholic faith, or you suspect that the faith is being watered down somewhat in certain areas, you can get core teachings of many subject matters of the Catholic faith from the premium channel that provides download rights.  With just $10 for one month, you can “test all things” to see if its worth it or not to continue with your subscription.  For me, like Catholic Answers, the subscription to Voris’ premium channel is a bargain.

Rudeness never softened anybody’s heart, or changed anybody for the better.  Walking out of Mass during a homily is just plain rude, and disrespectful to everybody present.  Christ died for me on the cross, and I can’t endure sitting through a homily I don’t like?

I don’t recall that anybody has been advocating that we walk out of Mass mid-homily.  I gather a few have done something along these lines, but I don’t recommend it.  Seems to me a simple failure to return would suffice.

So, Archbold, you are saying commentators should be more like Mark Shea. Got it. :)

Me thinks that the current [over the past 40+ years] apostasy of the faith needs to be addressed often in the manner of Voris, Fr. Corapi, etc. The majority of so-called ‘catholics’ do not even attend Sunday Mass—the Church needs to reach them, and needs to be blunt.  Eternal life or eternal fire is at stake here.  I have gained a better understanding of the faith through Michael Voris, and Fr. Corapi.  This understaning includes evangelization of those fallen away in particular.  By means of education we can better defend the truths of the Faith.  If one is offended, oh well…

Oh, PLEASE, somebody with old fashioned, Roman Catholic GUTS, please step up to the PRINT!!!!
I’m thinking we need another Constintine to call another Council!!! I know there’s an Athanasius out there somewhere!!! (Even if I forgot how to spell their names!:-)

Oh, PLEASE, somebody with old fashioned, Roman Catholic GUTS, please step up to the PRINT!!!!mattcabbott@gmail.com <mattcabbott@gmail.com>
I’m thinking we need another Constintine to call another Council!!! I know there’s an Athanasius out there somewhere!!! (Even if I forgot how to spell their names!:-)

So now that Easter came and went and the Dark Prophecy of Pagan Easter has gone completely unfulfilled, is anybody even slightly inclined to think that it was fanning the flames of hysteria to be urging people to get ready to leave their parishes over the supposed Gaia worship that was just about to break out?

Oh there was one pastor who mentioned our responsibility for creation in his homily: Pope Benedict XVI. No word yet on whether he will be arraigned on heresy charges.

Nope, no Gaia worship at my parish on Easter Vigil. We had an entire family that was baptized into the Church at the same time, though - mom, dad, and four kids (including an infant). That was awesome! :)

Obviously when Voris said to “run” or “Leave” the Church, he was using hyperbole!

Let’s not forget another famous use of hyperbole! It goes “If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off!” and “If your left eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out!” Guess who said that!

Obviously Voris isn’t against priests preaching about being environmentally minded to the degree that Christians are called to be stewards of the Earth. He is making a point not to fall in line with environmentalist activists who also promote sinful population control through abortion and eugenics and contraception and many other crazy ideas about keeping teh environment safe at the expense of the poor in other countries who need to utilize some natural resources that could pollute to a degree in order to look after themselves and get their country into a sustainable state. Human lives take precedence over nature. And it is damningly arrogant of such activists who normally couldn’t give two figs about Christianity or Christian morality to preach their message on our Holiest days dedicated to our Lord’s death and resurrection!

Both the bold and boisterous approach of Voris and the kind and gentleness of St. Teresa are appropriate in their time and place and person. Both methods are successfully utilized in one way or another. If one is judging Voris from his Vortex segments, do know that ‘The Vortex’ is in particular a segment dedicated to calling people out on certain things, somehting he repeats at the beginning of every episode, so it is intentionally meant to catch topics by the jugular and state the facts of Catholicism.

There are plenty of other videos and media and talks by Voris that you can find on RealCatholicTV that show that Voris can humbly talk and discuss things with people.

Thre is a time to be kind and gentle and a time when we must be bold and strong. Pray that God gives us the gift of discerning when and how we should best speak to reach others.

Yeah.  That’s it!  He wasn’t fomenting division and falsely forecasting scandal.  He was using hyperbole!  Yeah!  That’s it!  That’s the ticket!  Hyperbole!  In fact, he’s just like Jesus!  You wouldn’t want to go criticizing Jesus, would you?

Bruh-ther.

Mark,

Wow. 

All this time, I thought you were just acting like a jack ass.  Seeing your willful blindness to carry out a character assassination on an effective ministry we need desperately, is quite an eye-opener.

If only one had a tomato.

Wow. Then I suppose our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, is in deep trouble. Read his Easter Vigil homily. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20110423_veglia-pasquale_en.html

Especially this paragraph…
Now, one might ask: is it really important to speak also of creation during the Easter Vigil? Could we not begin with the events in which God calls man, forms a people for himself and creates his history with men upon the earth? The answer has to be: no. To omit the creation would be to misunderstand the very history of God with men, to diminish it, to lose sight of its true order of greatness. The sweep of history established by God reaches back to the origins, back to creation. Our profession of faith begins with the words: “We believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth”. If we omit the beginning of the Credo, the whole history of salvation becomes too limited and too small. The Church is not some kind of association that concerns itself with man’s religious needs but is limited to that objective. No, she brings man into contact with God and thus with the source of all things. Therefore we relate to God as Creator, and so we have a responsibility for creation. Our responsibility extends as far as creation because it comes from the Creator….

Carol:

We desperately need somebody to gin people up and urge them to leave their parishes on the basis of a shibboleth?  And we need people to defend the ginning up even when the Dark Prophecy of Pagan Easter never actually materializes?

If you say so.  Me: I’m thinkin’ we can probably do with a little less culture war fear-mongering particularly when the prophecies of the fearmonger don’t come true.

I’ll buy the “It was just hyperbole and nobody was really talking about leaving their parish” excuses when all the people above, who argued strenuously in defense of leaving their parishes, come back and say “We weren’t really supporting Voris’ demand that lots of people leave their parishes.”  Otherwise, it does look uncommonly like Voris was prophecying Pagan Easter, urging people to ditch their parishes when it came, and being heard loud and clear by people who were eager to justify ditching their parishes on Michael Voris’ say so.

People here say they want blunt, plain speech.  But apparently they mean “Blunt plain speech for me, not for thee.”  It’s okay to bluntly and plainly accuse priests beforehand of involvement in the Pagan Earth Day Conspiracy and instruct the faithful to leave should they so much as breathe a word about the shibboleth of Earth Day, regardless of context.  But to bluntly and plainly say the whole thing was hysteria and never panned out is terribly rude.

The intellectual dishonesty and chicanery is macabre.  It’s scandalous. Offensive.  Deceptive.  Not to mention ridiculous.

The Pope is talking about the recitation of the the verses in the Bible during the Easter Vigil that talk about the seven days GOD created. 

The controversy is actually about warning families of the heretics who have robbed us of the teachings in the Catechism and Sacramental Grace, quashed the Sacrament of Penance - and replaced it with pagan nonsense.

Reading Scripture that mentions God creating - and a priest who is training naive people to venerate themselves and the ground underneath them - as the center of the universe.  Do you know the difference?  I suspect you do.

“The intellectual dishonesty and chicanery is macabre.  It’s scandalous. Offensive.  Deceptive.  Not to mention ridiculous.”

Hmmm…. who does that sound like? Let me think…

Oh yeah… Voris! By his standards, we now need to condemn the Pope and leave Catholicism.

The Pope is talking about the recitation of the the verses in the Bible during the Easter Vigil that talk about the seven days GOD created.

Correctamundo.  And had some priest happened to introduce exactly the same ideas by mentioning that Earth Day was in the news as a way to make a connection for his audience between ancient Church teaching and current events, Michael Voris had instructed his followers to leave their parish and never return, because he was training his followers to Pavlovianly respond to an acoustic cue (“He breathed a word about ‘Earth Day’! We’re leaving!  Michael Voris said to do that if the priest breathes a word about Earth Day.”) rather than to think.

Mark, 

No matter how many ways I’ve said this to you, you don’t seem to want to hear it:  We are in tough shape.  Many of our families have been hanging on in parishes that are brainwashing and robbing their children.   

There’s a time to call them to the Ark and get them to board Her.  You’re trying to stop the migration. You want to keep them in parishes that are scandalizing their children, robbing them of their religion and salvation. 

It is a no brainer which is Holy Spirit.

This is much bigger than you, for whatever reason, are able to see and you seem unwilling to accept your limitations.

Mark,

I don’t know why you keep stripping context and lucidity from what was said. 

It’s a bit like taking a warning of an evangelist about something written by Margaret Sanger on ‘abortion’ and making a circus out of it by implying if something is read written by Fr. Pavone and it has the word ‘abortion’ in it, that’s what we’re talking about.

I can’t apply good faith to that tactic.  It’s deception.  What gets me is, that the willingness to do it, even though Christ and souls get hurt in the process.

Mark, JoAnna,
Really, give it a rest already.  You’ve made your point, we’ve made ours.
We disagree and likely aren’t going to reach an accord.
Enough.

Yes… enough p-l-e-a-s-e!

I second the motion to adjourn…

Carol:

And no matter how many times I note that I myself have left a parish because I needed to protect my family from the rot that was being taught there, you seem to pay no attention and assume I am unfamiliar with the problem of dreadful liturgy and heretical catechesis.  I’m not.

I’m simply pointing out that anointing Some Guy with a Web Cam as a pseudo-bishop and hanging on his words when he is fomenting division is not the solution to the problem.  I *get* that Voris sometimes deals with real problems and offers valuable information.  I get it.

Nonetheless, he was wrong to train his followers to expect the worst last week.  There was no Pagan Easter outbreak. Didn’t happen.  The mature thing to do is to be glad of that, not to go on defending the prophecy of Pagan Easter.  The guy sows factionalism needlessly.  It’s a sin.  Deal with it.

Carol,
It’s pretty apparent that Mr. Shea will not change his mind.  May I suggest we move on?

‘pseudo-bishop’??

Except for a handful, the bishops are either inept, useless or they are wolves in sheep’s clothing.  Most are the latter. 

What makes anyone who rises to warn the sheep, evangelize, expose the corruption - a ‘pseudo-bishop’? 

Some nerve, given you have spent years writing things the priests and bishops won’t!

We are sowing seeds of division from the heretics within and you will not make that distinction.  There’s something going on inside of you that is preventing you from this admission.  I suspect it is the sin of jealousy and envy.  Deal with it.

The days when Catholics who rise to serve the Church have to be mini-yous to and pass the inspection of you and Amy Wellborn are gone and they are not coming back.  There are other ministries besides your own. 

Ninety percent of people who have made it through the gauntlet of being brainwashed by the dissenters are ready for the stampede.  We have all had enough. You will get trampled if you continue. This tack is a loser for you.  I am telling you this because your work is important and I want to see it flourish to serve our Lord. 

You don’t get it.  Let it go.  There are too many of us now for you to maintain your long-held role of being the arbiter of who will get respect.  The reign is over.  You had a good run.

Mark, lukewarmness is not pleasing to the Lord, nor is pandering.  Making people aware of the climate they face that is often subtlely disguised is not being divisive, either. We are in this mess because people have not even realized they were being manipulated by a liberal agenda bent on changing the teachings of Jesus Christ to accomodate their perspective. Certainly there is a Christian way to do all things but we need to be careful also to recognize we are many parts and one body so they are going to look different sometimes.  Can’t say I am with you 100% on this one.  God bless.

John,

Put on your armor and raise our flags, it’s time to move on.

God bless you for your fortitude.

Mark, what would you have done if you had received this letter and wanted to get the word out quickly that this particular group of earthdayers were trying to dictate to some Catholic parishes how we should celebrate God’s creation? Perhaps you would contact the U.S.C.C.B., but I can tell you from experience, they do not respond quickly. For several years now, I have been trying to get them to remove the erroneous “Always Our Children”, from their website and although I was told two years ago that they were in the process of removing it, it remains. Not to mention that it took some four years or more to respond to the book, “The Quest For The Living God”, when they should have realized from the cover of the book, that anyone who thinks one can make an analogy between three rocks that do not appear to be of the same substance, are not ordered, do not appear in unity thus there can be no communion, nor can they be ONE, and The Blessed Trinity, is already lost from the beginning.

Since you ask, I would have said, “Christ is Risen.  He is risen indeed” and directed my viewers to the celebration of the triumph of the resurrected Christ and the joy of knowing that God is love, life has meaning and purpose, and the Church is a gift to be grateful for.  I would have completely ignored this silly fax, not used it as an occasion to pre-emptively gin up my followers to denounce priests and bishops for something they had not even done and prime people to leave their parish in a huff over a shibboleth.

An excellent question.

God knows my inbox is filled with people who are asking for help in their parish because of some rogue priest who has implemented scandalous programs and teaching the flock to be pagan. My inbox is filled from people who are scandalized by things their Bishop is doing.

What does Mark do when the faithful fill his inboxes about the corruptions, scandals and abuse?

I know I’ve cc’d him on numerous things over the years- including the Bishop here who set up a business to murder children for profit.  I never heard back from him.  I never saw him address these things in the public square.

I admit, I don’t get around the internet much - but what have you done Mark about the corruption in parishes and at Chanceries when people send you the information?  I would love to know.

No matter how abusive these Church men are, somebody will raise the clarian call to attack the messenger or find some way to obsfucate. If you step forward to expose it, they will try to undermine your efforts with kind of nonsense.  They’ve gotten away with it now for decades.  But enough is enough.

It’s telling that your approach with Voris wasn’t as visibly charitable as your hypothetical.  I assume he doesn’t mind though because if you really believe he’s wrong (sinfully so - as stated above), then he’d probably agree that it’s charitable to share this with him.  I’m assuming you have taken this approach as well and reached out to Mr. Voris.  How did he respond?

admit, I don’t get around the internet much - but what have you done Mark about the corruption in parishes and at Chanceries when people send you the information?  I would love to know.

Mhm.  Yet somehow I get the sense that you are already sure you know, despite your professed lack of knowledge, and have already tried, convicted and executed me as guilty of failing to measure up to your level of outrage about all sorts of things that it is impossible for me to independently verify.  So by all means, go with your gut and declare me impure, Carol.  It’s a good way demonstrate my point about the dangers of combox pseudo-bishops.

I’m done here.  You guys have a nice Star Chamber session.

Less than Impressed:

Oddly, you don’t seem interested in knowing whether Mr. Voris contacted the people he pre-emptively accused of celebrating Pagan Easter.  As I say, a lot of people seem to believe that only he and they have the right to speak critically, not their critics.

Okay.  Now I’m really gone.  Continue backbiting without me.

My statement shows my belief that you do have the right to speak critically.  Ironically, your comments seem indignant at the thought that so many could possibly disagree with you.  Assuming your comments here have been made in good will, and I have no reason to believe they are not, then my question doesn’t seem odd.  It seems obvious.

To start, he didn’t accuse anyone.  He had a discussion about a hypothetical situation.  Who should he have contacted?  Which priest or bishop did he name as likely to participate?  You do have someone that you can contact.  Call Voris out all you want, just do it charitably.  You are two people who love the Church, he obviously understands that it can be charitable to confront someone who is causing harm to the Church, and you’re smart enough to find a way to have that conversation.

Although I believe you are wrong in what you have written here (hence the name I chose), I would never tell you that you do not have the right to have written it.  However, my previous knowledge of you led me to be surprised at what I was reading, which is to your credit.  I hope that I never come to expect to see uncharitable comments (and frankly, ones that are misleading, illogical, and avoiding the actual questions being asked) after reading “Posted by Mark Shea”.

Your work to build and strengthen the Church is appreciated.  He is risen indeed!

Hmm-m… just can’t seem to stop… huh?

Oh well..

It’s so sad (but all too frequent) to continually witness God’s children fighting amongst each other over who is right and who is wrong.

Oh, of course, most will deny they are even fighting.  Most will just explain that they are defending the truth, etc..etc.  None will ever admit that PRIDE—or any other personal factor—ever even contributed to their uncharitable or ‘in-your-face’ comments.  No way!

IMO, in this particular thread, regardless of your position, there are NO winners. 

Sadly, all of us members of the Catholic Church have lost… once again.

The secular world continues to witness (and laugh at) how Catholics today love each other.

Wow… what a wonderful Easter example people!

Hopefully (Mark and Carol), there will be no need for more selfish justifications and/or prideful desires to impress each other with even more brilliant rhetoric on this pitiful thread, but…. hey… let’s see how mature you can be???

If you feel compelled to attack me (or my comment) instead ... feel free.  It would actually be a refreshing change of pace.

Happy Easter kids!

ED -  For as long as I breath, I will serve Christ.  Isn’t it clear to you that I couldn’t care less what you think or Mark thinks or anyone else thinks?  Your pathetic attempt to portray serving souls and Christ’s Church as some kind of an attempt to impress Mark or you or anyone else is an exercise in futility in these quarters.

Mark,

“Mhm.  Yet somehow I get the sense that you are already sure you know, despite your professed lack of knowledge, and have already tried, convicted and executed me as guilty of failing to measure up to your level of outrage about all sorts of things that it is impossible for me to independently verify”

I have not convicted and executed you. 

As stated above, I know you have been on cc’s of emails I have circulated about Cardinal O’Malley’s abortion business.  You were also cc’d on emails when the Cardinal mandated priests accept children of gay families into our Catholic schools or face being cut off from funding—and numerous other abusive situations. 

When you didn’t respond, the people asking for help, they are free to make a judgment about your silence. 

I am simply asking you, what do you do when people who are abused spiritually come to you to report these kinds of situations?

What is the burden of relating how you respond to people who are being spiritually abused and scandalized? 

Do you believe a Cardinal who is on track to open up an abortion business for profit should be exposed and held accountable for the murder for profit scheme? 

How could you stand to sit quiet in the face of it?

Do you support the people doing it or are they too guilty of ‘factionalism’?

I get hundreds of emails from people who are abused every month.

What do you do with the ones you get?

If you’re going to take whacks at a man with a spine who is finally actually doing something about it, I think it’s important to hear what you do in response to people asking for help in spiritually abusive situations.

Carol, my dear… I hate to be the one to tell you… but… your anger, venom, bitterness, and rebellious spirit isn’t serving Christ.  It’s serving someone else!

Guess who???

Mark, don’t you have better things to do than argue with people and accuse them of saying things which a quick Ctrl-F show have not been said at all except in your head.

ED- grow up. Carol is hardly serving the devil. Its easy to accuse someone of being uncharitable, but to then tell them they are being sinful…wow… incredible.

Carol-please allow these people to go on their merry way. I have yet to meet one internet celebrity that is NOT suffering from excessive pride, not even my dear Fathers Z and Phillip Neri. But unlike Mark and Mr Voris, they know it and try to fix their lives accordingly.

That being said, I do like alot of things that come out of Voris’ YouTube sub box and on occasion even liked a piece or two by Mr Shea. But seriously, no ad hominems: its adds nothing.

ED,
If I may say so, the vast majority of what I’ve read from Carol has borne little, if any, venom or rebellious spirit.  Anger, yes, bitterness, perhaps, but not venom or rebellion.

Do I simply understand Carol’s point differently maybe?
In the past ten years, I’ve been repeatedly horrified by what all I DIDN’T learn in high school.  Then I’ve been enraged.  I spent a few thousand dollars in tuition on a Catholic education, but I find there’s a giant mountain of information about the faith and it’s teachings, plus another mountain of Church practice that..I never saw, nor ever heard mentioned.
I remember hearing many times during my teens about how I (or we, as teens) could make a difference.  Yet time and time again, we’d get our butts kicked intellectually, spiritually, and definitely politically.  Then, during my late 20’s, I start coming across hints of ideas that, had I learned them 10-15 years before, I (and other teens) might’ve had some worthwhile influence.  ..Because we might’ve had some kind of usable intellectual ground to stand on.  Hyper-enthusiasm and good intentions don’t make sound debating points.

I will suggest that Carol has responded as she has in no small part because too many of us have begun to realize that, in spite of what we thought we’d learned, we’re darn near incompetent regarding even fairly basic vocabulary and knowledge that’s key to Catholic faith.

Seems to me that, if anything, Carol’s comments have been relatively measured.

What is needed is a miracle, and every miracle requires an act of Faith. Our Lady of Fatima, hear our Prayers for the unification of your Son’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Thanks you Pope Pat for enlightening us that someone with some wit, like Voris, can’t be Catholic. Evidently in your apostate world all heterodox and heretical comers are just safe and fine. God calls us to use discernment and judge what is wrong and evil and treat it as such. Duh! Winning!

Thanks James, John.

ED,

You know, you say ‘anger’ like it’s a bad thing.  Sometimes, it’s righteous to get ‘angry’, most especially when people are hurting other people, raping them or killing them.  Those of us who have been endowed with zeal for the House of the Lord and souls, get ‘angry’ when priests and Bishops do something even more scandalous than raping and killing -  when they rob you of your salvation.  Killing people is a misdemeanor compared to what they’re doing.

When you are deeply devoted to and intimate with Our Beloved, when you have been endowed with fervor and love for the salvation of souls, when the practice of your prayer life and Sacramental life is pointed towards God, when you want nothing else but to please Him, when you know what you are doing, the reasons why you are doing it and the spirit that you exercise it all with—silly assertions like yours aren’t worth a wooden nickel to me.

The questions to Mark remain unanswered - what justice has he done for the victims of this spiritual crime?

You are in my prayers Carol.

God Bless…

Thanks ED, I’ll make good use of those.
Peace of Christ.

I find Mr Shea one of those desperate men who try to defend his actions as somewhere inside his consciences is screaming. As one who has done many of the actions many of you have describes let me if I may sum up my life as a Catholic over the last few years. First I am a supporter of Carol. I know also I have shocked her. First I came back to the Church after a very long time and it is my reality I never left her for anyone just ignored her. All the time I was away I still attended church but never paid attention. Sound familiar to any of you? One day I could not be anything but scandalized by the homily of the priest, it was crass, foolish, full of his bullying personal ego and scandalous. So I let him know and said we would talk often in the future. We have and he finally left the parish. but it was not only me that got through to him. Here is the amusing bit and make of it what you will and for a change since I see you all have reacted and not clearly thought out what you wrote. Many will scream and correct me, not my problem is it? After several homilies and angry moments at the thought of the souls who followed this pastor and their so stupid adulation at his self acknowledged grandeur I said to God at the consecration, “For goodness sake give me your Crown for a while, let me burnish it and give it back. Guess what I heard, “You have a deal” I must tell you I have met Jesus and His Mother many times since and often they use the colloquialisms with which I grew up. I make no apologies for what I am. At Guadeloupe I was given a prayer and I have said it over many priests, publicans, pharisees and sinners nearly as dreadful as me but I know for sure I am not a holy man and how much I pray that I will become so. I find the only habit I have that saves me is a weekly confession although it got so tough a good priest heard my confession daily until I got myself back on track. The prayer by the way is very simple and before you all dance on the spot with temper and drown yourself in laughter it works and the local ordinary will not see me and a previous one after many letters when, upon meeting him at a pilgrimage said he had never heard of me.
Now I was told by the original priest to leave his parish as I knelt for Holy Communion. I left and said I will and will do so until I could no longer kneel. Of course it was the Jezebels as Mary calls them who demanded I must be stopped. Not one approached me. My wife said she would not be around when they did.
Now I did leave the Parish two years later after weekly confessions to that priest during which time he ran, I mean ran from the confession twice. I would never have left that parish as things were changing as there were quite few who rallied around. I did leave because on the New Years preparation mass Jesus asked me why I was going to communion, since I knew it was not Him. I panicked and asked what about those who do not know but expected it to be Him. I will come for them He said. I have been back in the years since when it seemed Jesus wanted me to.
I joined the Ukrainian Catholic Church, but left that when Bishop Yo Yo arrived and the liberals started to throw their weight around. Let me tell you all of the prayer and it works but some people are so happy when it does not. It will stretch your faith, “I am the Hero of Fatima, I am the third warning, in the name of Jesus of Nazareth I give you a glimpse of your eternal future. What are the results well a priest who had been accused of homosexual activity and was cleared by the courts broke down and cried. A priest who had made the papers over a longstanding affair with his house keeper said it is so beautiful. A priest who due to heart problems and could not serve said you are very close to the fountain of life. I could tell you of others but it is not anyone’s business but God’s and the recipient of the prayer.  Remember what the Holy Name promises us and before you critique me decide if you believe in that promise. Now let me tell you this my wife has complained about when we go out socially that my John the Baptist act is frightening at times. From this understand how Christ has explained it to me. There are many souls that have frailties. Some through pride are deaf, they need a prophet that shouts loudly. There are many souls who are bored they need a prophet with a sharp sword. There are so many souls that must be approached in different manners I the Redeemer will use what method necessary to redeem and who are you to correct Me, the Me in you. Of course it is so easy to be what I agreed to be so easy that Christ one day said, “Just who do think you are. I lead you follow. I died for you read the scriptures. So do not blame Michael Voris for what his faith has made you. I would if I were many odf you wonder if you have become what God made you or ARE AS MANY OF YOU SEEM TO BE A BUNCH OF RATIONALIZERS

I LOVE IT!  You’re awesome.  :)

Carol:

I heard that you stalked and harrassed the Bettinellis (Dom & Melanie) for a time - is that true?

Anyway.  Mark Shea has - as usual - erected a straw man here. It seems that once he overstates a case he finds it impossible to back down.  Too bad.

Carol McKinley demands to know what Mark Shea has done to actually change things and directly affect change. What is Michael Voris doing? What bishops is he contacting in order to affect change? None that I see. What I see is a fellow making money off the dissatisfactions and fears of Catholics.  Just like Corapi did.

What happened to him anyway? Seems as if he were so clearly unjustly accused that mess would have been cleared up by now.

Anyway.

The Church in Boston is a mess.  Boston Catholic Insider is a useful resource in that area.  Carol McKinley is not.

John,

Stalked the Bettinellis? LOL.  That urban legend is right up there with the belief that Al Gore invented the internet.  Thanks for the laughs.

(BTW - Boston Catholic Insider ROCKS.  You did know I was part of that team too, right?)

Peace!

By the way—On this feast day you try an accused priest by implying a delay on Fr. Corapi’s case is some kind of coded message that he is guilty in the com boxes on the internet?

You poor misguided lamb.

When we are judged by Jesus, it will be in black and white not shades of progressive christian yellow and purple. I suggest that those who feel threatened by both Voris and Corapi have serious need to be in the confessional.

http://catholicquotations.blogspot.com/2008/07/greater-part-of-men-choose-to-be-damned.html

It’s not Voris, but the message that people don’t like to hear.  Voris is a sinner and he probably will miss the mark once in a while just like the rest of us.  His critics generalize him as uncharitable.  Please read these quotes from famous Saints imagine that someone said these things today.  How would you perceive them?  Perhaps as an uncharitable nutjob?  If what Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church, said is true then I wouldn’t trust many priests either. Voris spends considerable time criticizing Catholic management in the West but never says a bad word about Holy Mother Church.  His message is in line with the great Saints.

Let’s all go confession this Saturday!

John King

I discovered the Voris video blogs one evening and fluctuated between amusement and revulsion. “Only virutuous Catholics should be permitted to vote.” [How might we know which ones are truly virtuous?] “Democracy is self-destructive; a benevolent dictatorship—-from a Catholic monarch—-is best.” You can’t make this stuff up!  Fascism takes many forms; it is tragic that this fool uses Catholicism to cloak his. “Follow a blind man and you will both end up in a ditch!”

Apparently there are not enough “clarity over charity” spokesmen about. If there were more, perhaps I wouldn’t feel my Church slipping away.

I have only watched Michael Voris once and it was his video on “Amazing Grace” where he took the hymn part by part and explained why they fell short of Catholic teachings.  I thought it very good, but for some reason Mark Shea went ballistic (and still fuming) about it.

I like Voris.  He may not be a bishop (as Shea tends to remind us), but his teachings about the faith (the faith, I say, as I don’t know about his politics)seem to be in harmony with the Magisterium.  It’s refreshing to hear a man so brave as to go counter-cultural.  I’m sick of politically-correct humanism where people and the environment are placed above God. 

I don’t care if others think Voris a bully (he didn’t seem to me.)  Sometimes it’s good to have a bully on your side.

Saint Jerome (ever heard of him?), pray for us.

I can’t read souls but I think Voris is out of line.  I plan to stick with the “real” saints.  Most saints were very respectful to priests and Bishops.  Prayer, humility, holiness, I just don’t see it or feel it.  Wild content and wild attacks, some people love the drama.  Saints do more than get in your face.  Mary, Seat of Wisdom!

“Had bishops pointed out that 81% of the abuse was happening when homosexual priests addicted to going after teenage boys the crowd of tolerance would have screamed homophobic rants.”

You’re using a contradiction in terms. Homosexuality is being attracted to the same sex. Predatory behavior on children is an entirely different matter. Truly just based on what has been said right here in discussion is the bishops and individual pastors are to blame for all the aforementioned reasons.

Statements such as this are what is discrediting the church. Using irrational logic and fear is the definition of a phobia therefor this is a homophobid remark.

Our Lord tempered the often harsh sounding JOhn the Baptist as well as some of the Apostles whom He referred to as “sons of thunder”.

Our Lord had some hard sayings and stern words too but let;s remember the pattern of His owrds and the balance of those words with all His many other words.

I think Voris could adjust his way of speaking and more in light of the pattern from the Gospel shown by Our Lord rather than be perceived as being a “son of thunder” or as GK Chesterton once said of some Americans being perceived as being “English spekaing Germans” by the rest of the English speaking world.

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