Maybe they could issue a statement to the apostate Catholics who (a) support abortion, (b) support the legitimization of homosexual activity and (c) desecrate the Eucharist by receiving in a state of sin, with their partner in sin.

Shared sacrifice - does that mean that the top 10% that is paying 40% of income taxes should pay more?

What is “unnecessary military . . . spending?” - the waste and fraud by politicians that require decisions to spend for local political considerations (mainly the Bishops’ party the DNC)?

Where in the Gospels does it say - Go tell Caesar to steal from others and pretend to help the poor, etc and that is all you do??

It’s getting harder and harder to be a Catholic…

With respect Pat, your falling into an intellectual trap.  Just because the bishops are advocating things that a democrat might, it doesn’t mean they are wrong. 
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Military spending for Budget Year 2012 is estimated to be almost 740 billion dollars (and that doesn’t include everything under the defense budget, just those items specifically reserved for the military).  That is 6 times more than China (The second largest military spender on the planet) and at least 10 times more than any other country in the world.  If you trimmed 100 billion off the military budget we would still be by far the largest military power on the planet and would save 1 trillion over 10 years.  Actually, it ought to be fairly easy to save a bundle on the military if we trim the number of wars we are actively involved in down to one or two from the current 4 or 5.
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Right now, about 60% of the budget is Military, Social Security and Medicare.  To cut the budget enough to get the savings we need will require fairly deep cuts in all of those programs.  Perhaps more cuts than most Americans are willing to give up, since most of them want their Social Security and Medicare… and if you can’t cut them enough, that means raising revenue.
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I will also point out that despite your claims of future knowledge, that you don’t actually know whether what the bishops recommend would bring the “house of cards crashing down” or not.  I know this is the blog-o-sphere, but this is also a Catholic site, so some humility before God when predicting the future might be appropriate.

The bishops may have hewn a little too closely to the Democratic party line, but their essential concern that budgets will be balanced on the backs of the poor is a valid one. For myself, I would extend that same concern to the under-employed and over-indebted middle class, the ones who actually pay taxes.
It is devoutly to be wished that the revenue increases, which will surely come under the new branch of government called the SuperCongress, will come in the form of ending the corporatist corporate welfare that, for example, shields Obama’s friends at GE from paying any tax at all. Or that spending will be reduced by ending some of Obama’s six wars. But these things are unlikely to happen.
Entitlements certainly need to be reformed, but very carefully.

I think the bishops statement was correct. When a Catholic disagrees with the bishops, our first reaction should be soul searching, not criticism.

So as long as the bishops stick to sex, you’re OK with them. Gee. Who would have ever thought being Catholic meant abandoning the Beatitudes? We never spent more than $580B in defense (2010 dollars) during the cold war. Today we spend, (including Bush’s Iraq war), $710B. You telling me that can’t be cut? The rich pay 15% income tax on capital gains. You telling me that normal Americans, who pay 25 or 28%, should continue to subsidize the ultrawealthy like John Paulson who took home 3.7 BILLION in 2007? It seems to me you take your talking points from Fox news. This is ridiculous and it’s turning America into a 3rd world country as the rich get richer and the middle class is destroyed.

I do not share those particular bishops’ concerns, while of course I do agree with them in principle—that the poor must be provided for, and that other expenses must be cut to ensure this if necessary. But surely how to accomplish that goal is a prudential matter. When half the people in the United States don’t pay federal income tax, is it not accurate to say that the other half already do “sacrifice” for them? How much “sacrifice” is necessary? That is the kind of question people who say things like that never answer. The same with higher taxes. It is easy to say that rich people should pay more, but how much more? How much is just? If we taxed the rich 100% we would not be able to pay our bills—so how much is even possible? These practical questions MUST be addressed.

While I am certain that military budgets could and probably should be cut, it seems to me that military budgets are the only ones that ARE cut on a regular basis. The military is always growing and shrinking. Is that true of the Agriculture Department, the EPA, the DEA, and many other departments? I don’t know anything about these bishops, but this statement of theirs does not sound to me like anything serious or thought-out. I expect my daughter’s high school civics class to discuss budgets more intelligently than that. Unfortunately, none of the politicians in Washington seem capable of it either. And yesterday in his campaign speech—er, debt announcement—the President announced that the budget mess was entirely the fault of everyone in Congress and that when they get back he will share all his great ideas with them. Amazing how he had nothing to do with any of it and the Democrats were apparently just as bad as the Republicans. Sigh.

They are not that smart some of them and if they serve a less advantaged area like a Pol they will serve their flock with what they want. It is a simple plan of which economic principal best serves all in the long run. We all want the same and we do not want to harm the poor but I do we really serve all in the long run

Gail F: This idiocy that ‘half the people pay no income tax’ is part of the mantra of the right. Who would pay more taxes? Social security recipients? The working poor who DO pay FEDERAL taxes (like FICA)? Gail ignores the fundamental shift in the US economy where the richest 1% have had a 500% increase in income in the last 30 years where the middle class has had…ZERO (adjusted for inflation.) Stop weeping for the rich, they’re doing fine! They got massive tax cuts, tax loopholes, etc. And it’s WRONG that taxing the rich at 100% (a stupid idea) wouldn’t pay our bills. Those making over $250,000 per year have total incomes of 2 TRILLION. Again and again we see this claptrap from the right that the rich are suffering and the middle class is greedy. The US has the highest GINI coefficient of any western country and it’s gotten worse. And, no, the military budget is NOT shrinking. Stop listening to right wing talk radio and do your homework! We just gave the rich a HUGE bailout and now you want them to get MORE? How many yachts do you want them to have, vs. food and shelter for the middle class and the poor?

Hey Bob, you must be so-o-o smart, with your “left-wing” news media (controlled by Obama). You want to tax the rich because they are able to use their God-given talents (which we all have) and to better themselves, which helps every-one along the way and I’m talking about those that made their wealth honestly, which eliminates some “catholic” politicians, past and present. If you can find some reliable history books, you would find that this country was formed to allow free enterprise, travel and safety from border to border (Canada/Mexico) and from sea to sea. NOTHING about socialism (welfare, birth control, free medical care, etc.) that your liberal fiends have forced on to us and now with the useless HSS directive about the insurance companies being forced to cover all birth-control (along with the sex toys, etc. that people “need” which will increase more abortions and suicides, etc. and of course the insurance rates will have to jump up until the companies are taken over by your Obama.  +JMJ+

Thank you for that article!!! We have the same problem.This nutty Bishop Taylor we have here in Arkansas is so leftist that he can see Russia from his house!! Open borders, hate conservatives, Obama lover, government should take care of everyone, tax more people, all diocesan priests going to Mexico to “learn the culture.” ....Geeze…Why dont they change the name of the USCCB to “Catholic Left.”

Putin said we are a parasite sucking the global economy dry;and that includes the Bishops the way I see it.

JMJ well I see the tin foil hat crowd is active today. “Controlled by Obama”? Any proof the Calvinist view that the rich are better than working people is true? Well, none. None at all. The financial sector of our economy went from 20% to 40% between 1997 and 2007. How’d that work out for America? Did this increase in concentration of wealth benefit or hurt our country? Yet you say they’re blessed of God! You’re a lunatic so don’t realize I am defending and YOU are DESTROYING capitalism. You’re in favor of crony capitalism, plutocracy and turning this country into Mexico. When you can PROVE to me that John Paulson EARNED the 3.7 BILLION he made in 2007 while the economy tanked, and that Wall Street HELPED America get STRONGER THEN you’ll have an argument. Until then, put the bats back in their belfry and read some history

JMJ,
I think we also need to keep in mind that this country was also not formed to follow the social teaching of the Catholic Church either.  Original intent of the Founding Fathers should certainly be considered in the making of new laws or enacting new programs, but it is not holy scripture, Tradition.  The Constitution was written by fallible humans who recognized their fallibility (which is why congress can make and repeal laws and why there is a method of amending the Constitution). 
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Ultimately, as a nation we have a responsibility to care for the poor and the sick.  Whether government should play a role in this is a matter for prudential judgement (though there should always be a major role for private charity). 
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What I do believe however is that while the social safety net we have is a mess and certainly responsible for quite a few of the problems we face as a nation, simply cutting it or eliminating it is (it seems to me) not in itself a moral solution to the problem.  Ultimately, that feels like a consequentialist solution (i.e., while responsible for many social evils, they also fill a real need, and simply eliminating them would do real harm to people who depend on them).  Ultimately, a system needs to be devised to minimize the harm done to the poor as these entitlement programs are replaced by hopefully better alternatives (both private charity and public sector programs) that will cost the American people less money.

bob, check your calendar: it’s 2011. The six wars are Obama’s. Sorry.
And the point about almost half of Americans paying no federal income tax is also true, for what it’s worth. I know it doesn’t fit the Democratic party narrative, but it’s true.

Pat… You are right on with this article.  Both of these bishops have done a terrible disservice to the Church with their childish and economically illiterate statement.  I had no knowledge of Bishop Taylor until I read the comment that he was a far-leftist.  We should all know about Bishop Hubbard of Albany - he who nurtures the abomination of Governor Cuomo - As soon as I saw his name attached to the statement, I knew it would be idiocy.  Reading the lame logic of these bishops (as well as some of the logically challenged on this blog like MD bob) shows how little people know and understand reality. They live in a leftist fantasy land and we continue to suffer by their presence.

“This idiocy that ‘half the people pay no income tax’ is part of the mantra of the right.”

It’s not a mantra, it’s a fact.  Bob is simply engaging in class warfare and demagoguery, which is a lot easier to do than actually coming up with rational arguments.  Seriously bob you have nothing but tired cliches, and yet you accuse others of mindlessly aping talk radio.  When you actually advance the notion that 100% confiscatory tax rates would cover our debt (not deficit) hole, then it’s time to put down the PBR and come back to reality.

peter, uh no they’re not. He’s winding them down. Bush started them. Bush got us to spend 2 trillion in Iraq. And I realize you rightwingers don’t like Medicare recipients and Social Security recipients, but people who are poor DO pay federal taxes, regardless of Rush’s lies. It’s the ultrawealthy who don’t pay taxes. Leona Helmsley was right; only the little people pay taxes. The middle class pays 28%. The richest 1% pay 15%, not including deductions. Stop being a Rush bobblehead. You might learn something!

Paul Zimmerman, while DEFENDING class warfare, and pretending it doesn’t exist, feigns outrage that I merely left the dead cat on the doorstep. Does the US have the worst GINI coefficient of any western country? Yes. Does the US have the worst income inequality? Yes. Has it gotten worse in the last 30 years? Yes. Is this bad for our country? Yes. The economy we have NOW is the result of 30 years of hard core right wing socialist redistributionism in support of the rich.

And he skips over the fact I called 100% taxation a ‘stupid’ idea (sic) and makes a strawman to defend his attacks against the middle class. Guess being right wing means never having to read.

To clarify: I did not say that rich people should not be taxed more. I said that HOW MUCH MORE is a prudential matter. It is true that half of Americans do not pay federal income tax. And I also did not say that military spending is shrinking, I said that the military budget goes up and down frequently and that military spending is frequently cut—unlike spending at many other government agencies, which do not seem to have their budgets raised and lowered.

I am not replying to bob, who is a nut, but clarifying my position. Anyone who believes that the way we distribute our money to the poor is effective or efficient obviously does not know any poor people. It is time for real grownups to start running things.

Gail,  here’s a graphic on the military budget. It hasn’t shrunk in over a decade: http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2014e8a553eaa970d-popup
You right wingers call anyone with evidence a ‘nut’ if they don’t agree with your Glen Beck Received Wisdom.

Pat, your article is so accurate and is exactly how I feel. The Bishops (there are some exceptions) seem like they are so connected to the Democratic Party it doesn’t matter what the truth is or that the DNC has been taken over by the radical left. Many Bishops do seem to have all the DNC talking points! Socialism, abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, gay “marriage” are NOT supported by the Catholic Church (as many Popes have written about). It is so sad.

The fact of the matter is that the USA cannot continue down the path of spending more than we take in and then borrowing from countries like China. We are going broke and something has to be done before we go bankrupt and the poor/elderly/ disabled will get NOTHING! The Republicans who have added to this financial mess seem like they are trying to start cutting and also trying to stabilize/fix programs like SS, Medicare & Medicaid…not destroy them (but that is not how the Democratically controlled media portrays Republicans/ Conservatives/ Tea Party and many Bishops buy into it).

GHU’s view of the Bishops is precious! The centerpiece of Obama’s presidency was healthcare reform and the bishops OPPOSED it. Guess that’s what counts as evidence on the far right. The bishops are so opposed to ‘gay marriage’ they even oppose companies extending healthcare coverage to domestic partners. How GHU comes to his conclusion is something he leaves unspoken. The GOP needs to start raising taxes on those who created this meltdown, benefitted from it and got bailed out by the MIDDLE CLASS, that is, the hedgefund managers, etc.

Bob: Obviously it hasn’t shrunk in over a decade! The military budget can’t shrink when we keep getting into more wars. Which, strangely, President Obama keeps doing, despite running as an anti-war president.  But a decade is NOTHING in terms of federal programs and departments. The US military has shrunk and grown numerous times, and will again. It is time for the budgets ALL the departments to be adjusted.

Gail, did you look at the graphic? It splits out increases in defense budgets vs. paying for the wars we’re involved in. And Obama doesn’t keep ‘getting us into wars’. Bush spent 2 trillion in Iraq. Where’s Obama’s comparable war? I agree that the military budget has been variable over the last 40 years or so. It’s useless, however, to say it shrinks OR expands in the absence of a context. The real question is, what level of military do we need? We are a much poorer country than we were 5 years ago.

Pat, thank you for your comments.  I was wondering if I was the only one who winced when the bishops’ statements came out.  I think you address what needed to be said and I’m glad someone had the strength to do it.

Going back decades there have been studies on waste and fraud in government programs. Nobody wants to clean it up. Government grows every year without regard to it’s citizens capacity to pay, because they just borrow or print more money.  The first requirement of the government is to protect the people and it’s borders not to provide school, housing, food, medical care for the lifetime of it’s citizens.  A safety net for those in dire need, sure, but isn’t that where the churches step in.

Lisag has a much fabled, Thomas Kincaid view of govt. There are postive social goods that help countries develop, like medical care and education. You guys are venturing into fringe conspiracy theory territory. You seem to want us to become a 3rd world country where the rich have almost all wealth and there is no middle class. And the amount of money in ‘waste and fraud’ can not POSSIBLY get us out of this situation. We need a grownup approach: cut entitlements (Medicare, SS), INCREASE TAXES on the weatlhy (double capital gains and retire Bush tax cuts on wealthy), and cut defense. But our main challenge NOW is JOBS. And cutting spending NOW will INCREASE UNEMPLOYMENT. Read those words again: We will see an INCREASE in unemployment due to teaparty mythology. Don’t blame it on Obama, blame it on the far right.

Well I have never had so many over intellectualized comments about basic economics. Like I said it is how we best maintain freedom and distribute goods and services to society. A goverment that governs least governs best and the business of The USA America is business not goverment. Note I did not say no goverment but limited, a mstter of economics

Tom,
The problem is that there is no such thing as basic economics.  Your platitudes about governments that govern least might with regards to individual liberty, but the evidence in the economic sphere is more sparse.  The one western economic powerhouse that is still doing reasonably well is Germany where the government is actually rather involved in the economy and taxes are relatively speaking high.
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I don’t think we necessarily want to model the USA on Germany, but I think we should take a close look and try to figure out why they are doing well and we aren’t.

MarylandBill brings up a key point often overlooked: we need EVIDENCE based decision making, not blind assertions about platitudes. We can look around the world to pick and choose what works…and disgard what doesn’t, based on EVIDENCE. It’s useless to adhere to a business model that leads to disaster, as we just did.

The Democrats “damn” the Republicans and the Republicans “damn” the Democrats—so what else is new? It is idiotic to take “sides”—who today “knows it all”. Everyone has an opinion. ;o)
It does irk me when the government and other peoples call SS and Medicare, ENTITLEMENTS. Social Security started out as SOCIAL SECURITY INSURANCE.(I remember—-pushed on us by the democrats) Everyone paid into SS & Medicare as long as they worked & it was suppose to go into a FUND that increased in time.  The government used the money for other “things” and the “well” is almost dry. Entitlements are: Medicaid, food stamps, supplemental SS for the mentally & physically handicapped, etc. and most specifically the salaries of the President and all Federal employees,  through our taxes, THAT IS AN ENTITLEMENT THAT THESE PEOPLE GET FROM US TAXPAYERS——WE PAY THEIR SALARIES AND BENEFITS!  Now the Gov’t. says that we SS and Medicare recipients are an albatross on the taxpayers.  Bah Humbug! Running a country is a business, we do not need lawyers double-talking, we need BUSINESS MAJORS. [oh well, I am just an 84 yr-old who was brought up in the Great Depression and WWII.—I sure do know “sacrifice”, but the people running our government has yet to sacrifice anything, they just tell us to sacrifice.] I shall not get into the Bishops right now—they too are “humbug”—our Pope ought to reprimand some of them.
P.S. remember this, Roosevelt did not end the Great Depression—World War II did! (I did not read this from a book, I remember & lived it)

Once again that is the basic premise the rest is what is the better sway to distribute goods and services and still maintain a vibrant economy always strive for the ideal

I wonder if these same bishops will also support the mandated birth control, sterilization, etc. that the Obama Administration requires of insurance companies in Obamacare. Catholic agencies which deal with non-Cahtolics as well as Cahtolics will not be allowed a conscience exemption and will have to choose between violating church teaching or shutting down!

There are some issues which are clearcut for Catholics (intrinsic evils such as abortion, e.g.), and others where faithful Catholics can disagree. The bishops noted in the NCR article are pushing matters in the latter category.

As for Bob, please state facts and not liberal propaganda. The top 1 percent of wage earners in this country pay 38% of income tax. The top 25% of income earners pay 86% of the income tax. I’d say they already pay more than their fair share.

If this country wants to grow jobs, stop regulating and penalizing small business owners. They are already matching their employees’ Social Security and Medicare, paying into unemployment, etc. My employees ended up taking home more money than I did so I finally gave up my business in 2001. Me and my three employees were left without jobs.

I tithe and I work with the poor, but 51% of Americans pay no income tax whatsoever, and the numbers on entitlement programs has grown alarmingly. The only ones making large amounts of money right now are the mobsters in the Unions who turn out the vote for Obama and the Democrats. (The real terrorists, in my humble opinion!)

If the bishops want to make a connection with our current fiscal crisis and church teaching, let them talk about the dangers of usury. When the USA pays 43 cents of every dollar in interest payments, this country is heading toward bankruptcy where everyone will become poor. is that what they want???

God hates debt because those who get into it are slaves! Let us get our country on a responsible course. And while we’re at it, all of us with credit card debt need to do the same.

Bob,
Keep in mind that evidence cuts both ways.  I pointed to Germany as an example of a country with a socially involved government as an example that smaller isn’t necessarily better, but I could just as easily have pointed at Greece.
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Germany is obviously doing something to keep its economy growing.  Certainly some of their ideas are worth looking at… but it might also be true that they could be doing better if they were to trim certain aspects of their government.
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Finally of course, we must not threaten basic human dignity simply in the name of economic growth.  We might be able to get 6-10% growth if we were to copy China, but it is not something anyone would want to do (at least I hope not).

Pat…The Bishops, that is the USCCB, lost their credibility a very long
time ago. There are individual bishops that still hold the line as true shepherds, but few they are in number.  As for the Tea Party losing here?
Wrong again!!! True they did not achieve all their goals, but the very fact that there was actually a debate and a discussion, an actual recognition that this country is very close to bankruptcy was a goal in itself that would not have been achieved w/o the voice of this small but very vocal group, the Tea Party! Make no mistake about it..without their voice the American people would not have been heard in Washington, DC and at least every pol in Congress has been put on notice, as well as the White House, that the American voting public HAS HAD IT with reckless spending and big gov’t programs! Give credit please where credit is due.
We have a long way to go to turn this country around but every journey begins with a single step. Thanks to the Tea Party we have begun that journey back to solvency. No small victory in these perilous times. God bless the Tea Party for not giving up or in….America needs them in order to survive! The Bishops need to concentrate on Church matters that
threaten the existence of faith…without faith no program, neither the Church or the country, will succeed. How about allowing homilies in our parishes that address the major and evil social problems of our day…like divorce, abortion, and artificial contraception, Same -Sex Marriages and the evil of homosexuality… and what it means to be Catholic in today’s world. We need substance and not the pablum that passes as the usual homily. The USCCB has been an effete and in-effective organization for too long. You are right when you say they have no credibility both without the Church and within! God bless them also that they may get their house in order…

Joanne, I suggest you consult an eye doctor because you’re flying blind. Liberal propaganda? That’s what the right calls ‘facts’. Here’s a list of income inequalities across the world, showing the US is much like a 3rd world country:
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
Here’s an article on how other advanced countries have greater social mobility than the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility
The reason the rich pay so much in taxes is their income has SKYROCKETED in the last 30 years, due to right wing policies.
The same UCSC article above has the DATA showing that wealth is becoming FAR more concentrated in the hands of the wealthiest 1% in America than in other countries AND that the richest 1% have had a MASSIVE increase in income compared to working people. THAT is how the right wing is destroying this country. They’re impoverishing the middle class.

Joanne…if you don’t have the DATA…the EVIDENCE, then don’t bother arguing, OK? Right wing talk radio is not a substitute for DATA

You are right on.  The real problem as pointed out in this link is the expansive definition of poverty today: http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2011/08/03/sowell-the-most-misleading-words-used-in-politics/?subscriber=1

I grew up until age 11 in a cold water flat on the Lower East Side of Manhattan with a wood stove in the kitchen and an ice box.  We were “relocated” to a tenement to build the Al Smith project and two years later to a housing project.  We never considered ourselves to be poor and my family refused to go on “relief” believing that work and education were the way out. 
As for not paying taxes and in fact “getting money back”, that was unheard of.  Whem I was directing a migrant health clinic, one of the old consejeros (wise counselors) told me that the care should not be free but that migrants should pay one dollar to be engaged in the enterprise and for their pride.

Thirstfortruth thanks the Tea party for saving America. Interesting that the stock market is collapsing in the wake of the recent TP victory. Seems like Wall Street recognizes what the TP doesn’t: we just cut our own throats

Joanne, incidentally…regarding unions. The US has 7% union membership. Unemployment here is 9.2%. Germany has 30% unions and unemployment is 7.4%. Germany, apart from agricultural goods, exports MORE than the US even though they’re 1/4 of our population. It’s WALL STREET greed that’s the problem, as ALAN GREENSPAN said, NOT Main Street.

PAT ARCHBOLD - Not only well said, but necessarily said.

Bob,
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.  There is plenty of reason to believe the stock market was tanking before the debt ceiling was raised.  Now however it seems to be more due to the real bad facts of our economy.  Whether this is good or ill, no one will know for quite some time yet.

MD Bill I agree the stock market is lagging. But the THEORY of the TP was that reducing debt would make America stronger. Seems Wall Street disagrees. One of the things needed to restore growth in America is a stable and growing stock market. That’s what the goal of the TP scorched earth policy was. Their theory made a prediction. That prediction was tested. It failed.

And to those, here, who seem to be taking such moral pleasure in advocating the bishops’ positions on these prudential judgment issues - aren’t you ignoring God’s Tenth Commandment: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods?

Bob,
No offense, but after 24 hours, claiming that their prediction failed is simply silly.  Lets also remember we haven’t actually reduced the debt.  The new bill only slows the rate of the debt’s growth.  You also ignore the fact that the National Debt is only one small part of the economic news that Wall Street investors use.
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To put it in simple terms, you seem to think that you have proved that cold does not make ice cubes because you took the kettle off the stove two minutes ago and the water in it has not yet begun to freeze.

stilbelieve,
One of the ironies of America is that the most liberal are likely to be in that part of the population that pays income taxes and has capital gains taxes (that is also true of the most conservative… the rest of us are somewhere in the middle), so in fairness to them, they are often the ones who will take some of the hit if taxes are raised.

Gee how many of you have 401 K’s   Da

Some of the people commenting here by claiming the “high road” of socialism so prevalent among the Progressives, need to look at what the Catholic Church is saying about taking care of those less fortunate by what is known as the principle of subsidiarity. It is not reflected always by the USCCB, who are more likely to follow the agenda of the Democratic party..than the gospel or the catechism.  The current federal social programs need to be addressed and reigned in, for as lofty as their ideals may be, we cannot sustain them without going bankrupt and/or burdening our children and grand-children for generations to come with enormous debt! Many of these programs are self-defeating as they are really population control in practice…e.g. federally supported abortion and artificial birth control disquised as women’s health programs.
The business of government is to govern. Fulfilling our duty to our neighbor should not be the responsibility of government. We have created entitlement generations who do not look to themselves but rather to the politician who will promise them a “chicken in every pot! Or rather now it is the keys to a house they cannot afford. Some people get ahead and earn self-respect by acknowledging the basic facts of life…you don’t work? You don’t eat!!! Sure there are those who need assistance, and we, as Christians, along with government agencies designed to help, not hinder, social progress, are necessary to civilized and progressive
societies. But what we have today is contributing to the decay of society for the most part ...and not fulfilling the Gospel message. To kick the legs out from under businesses, both large and small, with burdensome government regulations and excessive fines, seems fool hardy in a country that is desperately trying to create jobs.  If there is an industry that is succeeding in creating jobs, government, the way it operates today, will do all it can to bring that industry to a halt! This is not Europe…yet! Thank God…but we are fast becoming as bankrupt morally and financially as those countries, as the Progressives take us down that slippery slope of socialsm…a system that has failed everywhere it has been tried. We, the USA, are not too big to fail…another aphorism that
denies the reality of sound fiscal policy.  Let’s go back to being a nation of sound reason and faith…not a country governed by sound bites from shallow politicians promising properity for all but really disaster for generations to come! The persistence and perseverence of the Tea Party may be our only hope in these very dangerous times. They are the true voice of Americans trying to take their country back from those in Washington who will lead us like the Pied Piper over the cliff! NOVEMBER 2012 cannot get here fast enough with new leadership in Washinton,DC! Get active in helping to turn this Nation around and headed once more in the right direction. We are not too big to fail…but fail we will if we do not change course. Support America! Support the Tea Party movement!

@Maryland Bill

“One of the ironies of America is that the most liberal are likely to be in that part of the population that pays income taxes and has capital gains taxes…so in fairness to them, they are often the ones who will take some of the hit if taxes are raised.”

But that still doesn’t give them the right to covet they neighbor’s goods to spend in a way they think would be better.

opps, got to go - Rush is on!

MarylandBill…the right has socialism for the rich, AKA ‘moral hazard theory’. Alan Greenspan gave us 30 years of deregulation which, as he admitted, coupled with greed, destroyed our economy. The middle class pays its own way. The last 2 times we cut capital gains we got the dot com bubble and the housing bubble. It’s time for capital gains to be taxed like ordinary income. And people PAID for Medicare and social security. Those aren’t welfare programs!

Thirstfortruth mouths more rightwing platitudes than information. We have capital gains taxed at 1/2 of what working Americans pay yet he ignores that. We have had a massive increase in wealth transferred to the richest 1% over the last 30 years which is why the middle class has no money. He ignores that. He mentions houses that people can’t afford and ignores the fact John Paulson, hedgefund manager, made 3.7 BILLION…that’s right…BILLION in 2007. He ignores that. He, like so much of the right, blames the middle class for the excesses of the wealthy. It wasn’t the MIDDLE CLASS that blew up this economy! The social welfare states of Europe, as Maryland Bill pointed out, in some cases are doing better than we are. Time to stop the blather and look at EVIDENCE

MarylandBill….if Wall Street thought this was a lifesaver, they would have shown it. I agree this is only 1 piece of data. But that’s the CORE of TP logic: ONLY TAXES MATTER. Well, we avoided a tax increase, and yet Wall Street seems unimpressed.

stilbelieve: where’s the PROOF that the massive accumulation of weatlh by a small, plutocratic group in this country is justified? Where’s the proof they earned it? Where’s the proof this has been good for our country. The implicit assumption on the part of the right is that the rich are rich because they DESERVE it. My question is: where’s your PROOF?

@bob

Where is your right to demand that the rich prove they got their wealth in a way justified by you?

...commercial’s over, back to Rush.

stilbelieve by virture of the fact that they trashed the economy and I bailed them out. YOU may believe in socialism for the rich, but I am a CAPITALIST.

MarylandBob…you like facts! So do I so please do not mis-quote me in your eagerness to promote social welfare. Never did I say the Tea Party
won on Tuesday….but only took exception to Pat Archibold’s statement that they (along with others)failed. They did not fail… in so far as they brought a voice to Washington from the voting public that politicians for decades have ignored. At the very least the Tea Party has succeeded in forcing Washington to listen to the average tax payer and take action towards reducing our debt and entitlement programs that have bankrupted America and turned us into a debtor nation. Through the actions of the Tea Party America has said what needs to be heard…and at last Washington had to listen. Have we solved the problems? No! Where did I say or even imply that to be true…just a single step, I said. It is the beginning of the journey! Wall Street declined precipitously because they are not yet convinced that the committee (yet to be announced )is to be trusted to follow through. Neither is the Tea Party which will be more active than ever to see right responsibiity is restored.  It will be a long and arduous journey at that…but the Tea Party represents for the average voter a light at the end of a very dark tunnel where confusion and consternation abound. BUT!  We have a voice! It is being heard! A small but significant step! What is that voice? The voice that is demanding fiscal responsibility with our tax dollars…smaller government with an increased sense of responsibiity to the voting public, not to
only Wall Street, not massive lobbying programs, etc. It is in this sense that I see a limited victory in what happened on Tuesday, unlike Pat.
It is common among Progressives (used to be called Liberals) to cite a
European country of choice to support their argument for bigger and more costly government, pointing out their nebuous “gains” as monumental successes. Newsflash MarylandBob!!! This is America! We do things by tradition somewhat differently here…and Thank God we can still be American by supporting the average voter’s desires through the actions of the Tea Party. We are not yet a socialist government where the average voter pays 90% of income in taxes to support their nanny-state as in Holland. ( you are not the only one who can point to Europe!) Think American, Maryland Bob, not European! More than once we have had to bail them out of their progressive messes. We have our own issues…and we will resolve them with American ingenuity and faith in God….something Europe has totally lost in its slide down the slope of secular humanism. Europe has not had a government leader with ideas worth emulating since Lady Thatcher so please stop trying to ram a dying continent down our throats. Some of us are too smart to be taken in by your elistist agenda.

Thirst, the TP is not the voice of the voter. 63% of TP members are southerners. This is just another group of white southerners trying to gut America to get what they want. Entitlements aren’t the problem right now. JOBS are and the TP has no solution for this. They want to deregulate the banks. Well, that certainly worked out well during the last few years, didn’t it? The committee called for in the debt relief package has AUTOMATIC TRIGGERS that will come into effect if there’s no plan in place by November. Who knows what ‘smaller govt’ means? We HAD smaller govt for Wall Street…worked out great, didn’t it! The bankers got EVERYTHING they wanted and we had to bail them out. What a success smaller govt was! You call every benefit for the middle class ‘socialist’ while favoring socialism for the RICH. Your trust in mythology is touching, almost quaint. The TP just TP’d America. And I guess you didn’t know Lady Thatcher’s party just RAISED TAXES to help alleviate Britain’s debt crisis. You’re not a deep thinker and believe in cliches. I go with EVIDENCE…with what WORKS. That’s the difference between LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES.

The entire USCCB made fools of themselves over this issue.  The biggest problem the Catholic Church has in this country is that it has been in bed with the Irish Democratic Machine for over a generation, which is why we now have a President who is viciously anti-life and anti-Christian.  If I hear about Social Justice or the Preferential Option for the poor one more time I think my head will explode, especially when “the poor” have cell phones, cable tv, cars and suffer from morbid obesity. 

The bishops need to put on civvies and spend a few weeks incognito talking to normal people.

Paul is a great example of how the right has rejected the Beatitudes and has cast its lot with the Moneychangers. It’s laughable reading about how the bishops are in bed with the Dems since the bishops have opposed Obama’s healthcare…the centerpiece of his administration. Kinda forgot about that, didn’t you. But, go ahead. Tell us how the Beatitudes should be changed so the rich should inherit the earth.

ThirstforTruth,
I and Bob are two different people and it should be clear to you (who claim in your name to desire Truth) that we certainly don’t share a common position.  It is an uncharitable tactic to conflate our two positions.

@bob

“stilbelieve by virture of the fact that they trashed the economy and I bailed them out.

The economy was “trashed” by Carter, Clinton, and the Democrat Congress Members who voted for and stood by the Community Reinvestment Act that forced subprime loans to be made to the poor and low income.  An act supported by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to the very end when the financial and housing markets collapsed by the weight of mortgages government forced lenders to make or face government lawsuits for redlining, as well as the poor and low income picketing their bank lobbies and management neighborhoods organized by ACCORN.  The economy has been made worse by the spending of Democrat controlled Congress from 2006 to 2010, and by decisions made by President Obama’s and his Administration.

Like I said we all should want what is best for all based on our Catholic ethics it is just a matter of economic distribution there is no need for crying to much people. I believe people should be empowered with free choice based on ethics to produce the best results. So is it a goverment that governs least is the better or does excessive goverment do better?  Note less goverment not no goverment gee what is all this over intellectualizing about if we are truly good people then we shall do the right thing

stilbelieve, if only you would read information before you bleated right wing cliches. Only 1 of the biggest 25 mortgage vendors that went bankrupt were subject to the CRA. So, no, your statement is wrong. And Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDO’s), went from 320 BILLION in 1997 to SIXTY TWO TRILLION in 2007. THAT is what blew up the economy…the gambling on the part of Wall Street, the lack of REGULATION, the sham ratings given to junk bond CDO’s…so stop with the Glen Beck Garbage and get some data, OK? And no, the democratic congress had little to do with increased spending. It’s a law of economics that, in a depression, you will run a deficit. The biggest contributions to the deficit are 1. Bush’s tax cut of 2001; 2 Bush’s tax cut of 2003 3. Bush’s 2 trillion war in Iraq. So, please, don’t come to a gun fight armed with a knife!

I think you are over-reading.  I don’t see anything in that statement that we can really take issue with:

- cannot rely on disproportionate cuts in essential services to poor persons - I don’t see what we can object to there.  In fact, it leaves a ton of wiggle room because it says *essential* services. 

- It requires shared sacrifice by all - To object to this is to say that some should sacrifice more than others. 

- including raising adequate revenues - Raising taxes is not the only way to do this.  Revenue can be raised through more effective tax and fee gathering, through going after owed taxes and fees.  But even if it is higher taxes, I think you’d be hard pressed to say that Catholic teaching opposes raising taxes in one of the less taxed countries.

- eliminating unnecessary military and other spending - Again, lots of wiggle-room with the “unnecessary” part. 

- addressing the long-term costs of health insurance and retirement programs fairly - Can we really oppose a statement that says that we should do better to address the long-term costs of these programs?

So, what is so objectionable here?  Nothing.  The only reason it would be objectionable is if you read these things to mean certain things that they don’t explicitly say.

And I guess that is the real problem here.  Our bishops have shown such a lack of leadership in so many areas, that it is easy to assume the worst about them.  They have gone so easy on the sins of the left that it is easy to assume that they are a part of the left and that they mean what the left means when they make statements like this. 

But assumptions are not charitable, and as Catholics, we should keep that in mind, especially when it comes to the successors of the Apostles.

So how is your 401k ???

The shallow thinking of the left looms large in bob’s comments e.g. the
assumption of “the right is that the rich DESERVE their riches”..Hey!DO YOU GO TO WORK FOR NOTHING bob? IF THE GUY WHO MAKES THE DOUGH DOESN’T DESERVE IT, WHO DOES???? Well, we know bob’s answer to that: BIG GOVERNMENT!! Let me point out the fallacious thinking of the left-minded: how the “bobs” support their massive entitlement programs for the poor and disadvantaged by thinking somehow the “poor” DESERVE what the rich have EARNED (EARNED by producing needed goods and providing employment)by redistributing the EARNED wealth… KILLING THE IDEA THAT AMERICA IS THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY: Meaning that the rules of business that enriched the John Paulsens also enriched anyone who has invested in 401K or other types of investments… probably includes you bob! Do we know what the John P’s and others invest in? Maybe your corporation that pays your salary. It might even be possible that the private charities that help the real poor are some of their investments. Why does bob hate those more wealthy than he? Unfulfilled dreams? or just plain covetousness? Hell of a way to rationalize actually helping the real poor! In America all can become prosperous by contributing time and talent for their own gain and in the process enrich others as well. This is what made America great and powerful and the most successful and generous society known on the planet. Will all get equally rich? Improbable… But it is a fact most will and do prosper under this kind of system while under socialized govt programs very few will do as well as more become government dependent for their needs and higher taxes are required from all.  As Margaret Thatcher has said, “socialism works until they run out of other peoples money”! A good and solid society does require that all but the most disadvantaged contribute to society. The basic fact of life..You have to work to eat, live and play! No FREE lunches or even houses, for the capable and strong. Which should be most everybody that walks, talks, eats and breathes. Few exceptions! Dignity for all requires participation by all in the process we call work. Unlike a system of slavery, all who work in a free, capitalistic society are rewarded accordingly. The system provides a dignified way toward independence. Not all will become billionaires ..but most can become self reliant, given a balanced capitalistic system where Uncle Sam does not take 90%of earned incomes to pay for those who refuse to be contributors.  There is the rub! For many have learned under the present burgeoning system..our Uncle Sam is a great big sugar daddy! “He gonna pay my mortgage!” was the mantra before the 2008 election re the great Messiah by those who have come to expect the everlasting hand-out!
Now THERE is a real incentive for improving the economy…take away from those who produce the worlds goods and jobs and give to the now massive numbers who think they should be paid for breathing via free everything. I can see how that incentivizes growing more “poor” among us…but what is in it for the CAPITALIST except endless regulations and burdensome fines with far fewer investment dollars.  And an Uncle Sam with a greed problem! Do you want to be a self-respecting, self-reliant person?
Or do you want to be a number among the growing poor where the bob’s of this world would like you to be so he can get “retribution” against the John Paulsens who are wildly rich… beyond what most people dream. “bob the dream-killer”‘s real entitlement program is really all about bob!! and his un-requited love of money…other people’s that is!

Thirst continues his defense of those who plundered our economy. When Goldman Sachs sold CDO’s they KNEW were trash and when their own managers took out credit default swaps on those, making BILLIONS…well, to “Thirst” this is a worthy example of how the rich are superior to a lowly chemical engineer. The financial sector went from being 20% to 40% of our economy in 10 years, while our manufacturing sector collapsed…and to “Thirst” this is proof of how great the rich really are. Sweden has higher mobility than the US. He defends this. We’ve had 30 years of deregulation, smaller govt….Thirst got EVERYTHING he wanted…and it destroyed us. I have a specific example, above, of how ONE company helped destroy us. This was repeated MANY times in the last 3 years because of DEREGULATION and SMALLER GOVT. Thirst thinks that’s great. Why? Because he’s a socialist for the rich. To “Thirst”, we don’t need engineers, or a manufacturing sector. We just need the rich. We don’t need to regulate them because look at what they’ve done for our country! It’s really worked out well, hasn’t it?

What did John Paulsen produce? Nothing. What did Goldman Sachs produce? Nothing. What did AIG produce? Nothing. We know that because we had to BAIL THEM OUT. Remember that, “Thirst”? We bailed them out, yet you call THEM a success! Is ANY more proof needed that the right wing is morally bankrupt?

Has anyone ever heard of subsidiarity?  Believe it or not, it’s a doctrine of the Catholic Church (see CCC #1883, 1894, and 2209). In “Quadragesimo Anno,” Pope Pius XI taught that: “It is a fundamental principle of social philosophy, fixed and unchangeable, that one should not withdraw from individuals and commit to the community what [individuals] can accomplish by their own enterprise and industry.” In other words, the Bishops have not follwed, or are they following, the doctrine of the Catholic Church which simply states, “charity begins at home!”

I guess the Bishops have a different economic point of view. I feel they are sincere but not up on their economics, like i said I hope we all want what os best for all . It is a matter of how you get the job done

The Tea Party has been mis-represented by those who lean largely to the left ...from Nancy Pelosi’s “Astro-turf” appellation to our old bob here
saying it is mostly made up of southern white conservatives. Nancy the Nut got it totally wrong as proven this past November election and old bob..well, he wants to see and lump all conservatives in one big nasty bunch of shallow thinkers. Actually the largest components of the membership of the TP are in the urban areas hardest hit by the housing bust and in the rural agri-areas of the mid’west fly over country that are tired of being discredited, almost disenfranchised Americans. While small in number they have enormous support by just average voters tired of the mess in Washington..and no effective leadership! You all will see how the “mouse can roar” come November 2012 when Washington will be swept clean by the “let’s take back America” known today as the Tea Partiers efforts!
We have good history as Boston can tell you! For those more interested in the real demographics of the TP go on-line ...the truth is not in old bob when it comes to the subject of the TP! It embarrasses him and his faulty statistics and un-substantiated “facts” he is so found of trying to ram the combox with here…and lots of other comboxes…mostly all Catholic blogspots our friend, bob the bigot, is so fond of trolling.

It’s amusing to watch the apoplectic right go nuts when someone confronts them with truth. Thirst thinks I make this stuff up out of wholecloth; unfortunately for him, I read. And I have data to back up my contentions. Proof that the TP is southern whites? http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20153905fb427970b-popup
So go ahead and bloviate. I have evidence. So he pretends he’s plugged in, when it’s obvious he’s clueless.

Dear Bob @ 8:02 AM
I detect envy.  The ‘rich’ didn’t get bailouts.  Corporate America did.  We need to stop corporate welfare.  You should not lump those who make over 250,000 with millionaires and billionaires, just as you should not lump “rich” people (earners > $250,000) in with corporate America (yes, I know there’s overlap here) that received bailouts.

“How many yachts do you want them to have, vs. food and shelter for the middle class and the poor?”

Well, this sounds like a Democratic talking point, as if most people making over $250,000 have yachts.  Ha.  And I do not want to give middle class people food and shelter.  I am middle class, and I would never dream of expecting my fellow citizens to give me food or shelter.  I want to help the deserving poor, not the undeserving poor.  There is a difference.  I also do not want it accomplished at the federal level.

The big question always is… Why do so many people think it’s the FEDERAL govt’s job to help the poor?  Why not the states?  Why not local charities?

Answer:  The federal government can print money out of thin air and the states cannot.  They can spend money and pass the bill on to the next several generations who have no say in current gov’t spending.  That is called taxation without representation.

Annely, who owns corporate America? The wealthy do. The wealthiest 1% control about 40% of the US economy. I agree that those who make over 250k are not rich, but they’re certainly richer than the rest of us. The right keeps conflating Medicare and Social Security with welfare, as if those of us PAYING for this are undeserving. Why do so many on the right think it’s the govt’s job to help the rich (loopholes, low capital gains, etc?) Welfare in this country is about 200B (that’s programs for the poor, across federal, state and local govts). The TARP program cost 245B (much of which has been repaid), and there are the ARRA costs, of about 800B, due to unemployment, etc. that Wall Street’s greed inflicted on us due to the financial collapse. We’d have a thriving economy if we hadn’t deregulated the banks and let them run roughshod over us.

@ bob…you continue to assume where you have not factual support! How do you know that I am a “him”, “his”, “he” gender? Quess you just would like to think that’s the case so it must be so…hmmmmm??? That’s how you arrive at facts? Never mentioned Goldman Sachs..nor do I refer ever to the chemical engineer (how do you know I am not one?)as being lowly…All work is dignified by the person performing the job, however low it may be on the scale. It is true most professionals do quite well economically speaking in our society..of course their 401’s are in the tank now but overall cannot identify them with the poor…anymore than Obama can identify them, try as he might, with the truly rich! Just like you have trouble seeing me as a woman, you wrongly assert our government as having grown smaller ( in what way other than personal freedoms?) in the last 30 years! Keep misquoting me bob…and the facts. I use the appellation ThirstforTruth for a reason! I have great respect for those who can recognize and support it. Nowhere do I state that I favor corruption ..be it in business or in government! I can see fraud as easily as you…but I cannot comment here on every instance of it..there is not a combox big enough. In my humble opinion there is no perfect system in all of mankind’s history. We have to put in place the system that produces the greatest benefits for the most people without destroying human dignity or natural freedoms…keeping always respect for our Constitution. ( I could have said God-given but that would send you into apoplexy in another direction) I stand by what I previously stated regarding the
argument put forth here by Pat..I believe the TP did not fail but rather gained more than any other group by the actions of Congress last Tuesday. It was a small victory but victory none-the-less, that hopefully will lead to bigger and more effective ones that will turn this country around from the disasterous road we have been on far too long. Again, the Tea
Party is an important factor on the American political scene if for no other reason it gives hope to the average voter whose voice has been ignored and even silenced by an arrogant and wrong-headed government mostly made up of a Progressively-led obstinate, pin-headed Congress! The hope of the Tea Party is the same hope the voters have and will express in the 2012 November election evidenced in 2008… The “mouse has roared…enough! No more”!
Get your facts straight old bob…distorted facts and isolated instances of corruption do not hold up in the light of reality.

Playing coy isn’t going to help your argument, Thirst. You said the rich earned their money and I had to prove they didn’t. I gave you a very specific example of how hedgefund managers deluded and defrauded their customers, making BILLIONS while collapsing the economy. You ignored this, of course! It’s fatal to your view. Incidentally, the number of federal employees under Obama is about 8.4/1000 vs about 11/1000 under Bush, so, AGAIN you are WRONG about Obama and govt. You believe your cliches. I’m sure they help you sleep at night. Those of us who are adults will face the evidence and the truth in the full light of day. You’re afraid of monsters under the bed. Good for you!

bob, you are one of the last to acknowledge the Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, along with the Maxim Walters and the rest of the Democrat Left kept the Community Reinvestment Act from being regulated in the way the Republican Members of Congress wanted to do it in order to kept from happening what happened.  Heck, Senator McCain spoke on the Senate Floor in 2006 and laid out what was going to happen to the financial institutions if Congress did not try to control what was happening in Fannie Mae and Fredde Mac.  His Senate Floor statement was on C-span.  Democrat people were put in charge of those two quazi government agencies and those directors made millions every year in bonuses until they crashed.  Barney Frank’s famous line came from hearings to tighten controls on Fannie and Fredde; he said he wanted to “roll the dice,” i.e., continue seeing what happens instead of going along with the Republican calls to control what Fannie and Fradde were doing.

Gee guys this is not a Left v right thing just a matter of economics, anyways my Daddy once told me to be on guard to the marriage of big goverment big labor and big business that are in bed with each other.

I still say the rich earn THEIR money…will change only the emphasis.  Just because some choose fraudulent ways to add to their storehouse of riches does not deny this fact that the rich usually play by the rules.
These are rules set in place by Congress allowing those with money to gain more money…sort of like in the military: rank has privilege. Of course our Congress has been known to make some rules that give only them advantages…but anyone with money can play the game..and to get money one has to work…the nastiest word known in the present world climate
along with the word capitalism. Those are two words that have been known to make a Progressive like you keel over in a dead faint! The Tea Party is trying along with the more enlightened (those not deterred by facts) voters to change some of this by reducing the size and scope of government… changes you don’tlike but will help to turn this country around.
To say that Obama has reduced the size of government from the previous administration? LOL old bob! I will even give you the 125 Czars created by the Messiah-Who-Cannot Lead!  There are no monsters under beds bob..that you have not figured that out yet does not surprise me. Let’s w stop this silly back and forth and get on with more important things like helping to turn the country around. To quote the famous words of Bill O"Reilly “you are a pin-head bob” if you do not join the Tea Party movement.

It is time for my generation to stop messing with our children’s futures and permit the age for social security elegibility to be raised at least to 70, and to means test social security. Most people in my generation have had an average of 2 children, thereby denying the nation a base of workers to pay into entitlements for the elderly. Most “young older ” folk travel, eat too much, don’t exercise and generally insure that Medicare will be called upon with increased frequency as lifestyle diseases affect sedentary obese seniors Come on, folks!  We owe our children a chance at the good life we have had, and now it is time for us to stop taking,  and start sacrificing, a little!
By the way, I am an MD and have seven children, lots of grandkids,run 2-3 miles a day and perceive that Obamahealth has been formulated with the indirect objective of decreasing use of health care resources, and consequently social security,  by…us old guys!

Yes Doc I think you are right and the fundamental regard for the Life issues will gude I hope to make the right decisions.  Pax Tom

Who is this “bob”???....the mouthpiece for Obama /the far left Marxists?  He seems to think he is the authority on everyone’s comments with a bunch of left wing propaganda.

FYI: the USCCB did support Obamacare (government taker over of healthcare). The only thing they spoke up on was abortion and conscience rights. We now know abortion IS included, there are big cuts to Medicare, conscience rights are being trashed and ALL insurance companies will have to cover contraception, abortion pills and sterilizations. What else is included…...God only knows!

Sorry for typos all I have a hard time seeing Pax Tom

Bob and still believe need to chill lol Pax Tom

It’s laughable reading about how the bishops are in bed with the Dems since the bishops have opposed Obama’s healthcare…

bob, please, please stop repeating this. The bishops actually supported Obamacare except for the fact that it would leave the door open to tax funding of abortions. Otherwise they we’re completely fine with it. That’s the point of the article - it isn’t so much that the bishops have a “different point of view” or agree with Democrats, it’s how they do it. To parrot the talking points of liberals like Chuck Schumer and Barbara Boxer is no way to teach Catholic how a budget should be judged according to Catholic principles. Liberal boilerplate is not the same as Catholic teaching.

The truth is that bob HAS to believe what he says about the Bishops…it
would make him gag to think he and the USCCB might be on the same page..LOL!!!!
Seriously old bob….come over to the Tea Party…as hard as it might be for you to believe you will fit in better there than in the party of the USCCB! LOL!!!!!
@ Brother Robert Anthony…Please go back and read my first comment wherein I made reference to the prinicple of subsidiarity ..which should but obviously does not guide Catholics in their thinking about responsibility to the dis-advantaged. You are right about the Bishops need not only to act accordingly but speak out more vociferously about
its meaning for Catholics. Most do not even know about it!

Could someone get the sanctimonious class warriors to stop trolling?  We’ve lost the ability to discuss this topic the way Pat started it.

Bob, Keep It Up! Let ‘em howl at the moon and hiss at the truth. Even the bishops would be embarrassed by some of the defense the Church has received in this chain of posts.

Well “Thirst” has given up on trying to have a discussion based on evidence and now resorts to gratuitous insults. I guess that’s the only option left when you find Faux news has been lying to you

So Sam Schmitt is using the “Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play” defense. The bishops rejected the plan. It wasn’t a plan you could accept piecemeal. So his understanding of it…or his lack of understanding, merely shows that he can’t wrap his head around the fact the bishops don’t support the Dems’ agenda

So let’s see…the bishops accepted Obamacare except when they didn’t, according to GHU. They accepted a Chinese menu. IOW no one knows WHAT GHU thinks the bishops are saying about it. In addition his paranoia about the plan is leaking out around his tinfoil hat. “Govt takeover”?? Uh…the plan is administered by INSURANCE COMPANIES. Yes, that’s right ladies and gentlemen…I guess he thinks insurance companies are Marxist! It’s funny because he actually admits insurance companies are part of the plan! I don’t know of too many Marxist insurance companies!

THirst completely misstates or misunderstands the nature of the meltdown. No doubt it’s because the event has destroyed his ability to stuff the 10 pound meltdown into a 5 pound bag of right wing rhetoric. Last year the 25 richest hedgefund managers made more than ALL the 500 CEO’s of America’s biggest companies. Wall Street paid out record bonuses after they got bailed out. And yet, somehow, he thinks this proves Wall Street is America’s friend! Tell that to the US Navy which now has to cut funding for an aircraft carrier battle group. Let’s see…his friends the rich hedgefund managers got billions. And America got 1 less carrier. He probably thinks that’s a great deal!

Stilbelieve you keep repeating all the nice, WRONG, info on the Community Reinvestement Act. The fact is only 1 of the 25 largest mortgage companies that went belly up was subject to this. The OTHERS committed suicide on their own, aided by right wing ideology which REPEALED govt regulation of the banking industry, ala Alan Greenspan. Stil seems to believe that if you eliminate cops and say that robbing banks is OK that this will eliminate bank robberies! And as to the size of govt. I have the facts. Stil has right wing talk radio. There are now 8.4/1000 govt employees. Bush had over 11. But you notice how the FACTS don’t make an impression at all on the right. They have the party line and they don’t need no stinkin’ facts!

Does anyone recall the USCCB and the Acorn fiasco? I would say the Bishops loss of credibility as an organization dates back to way before
Obamacare (they did support for it except for the objections voiced about the govt supported abortion openly indicating that as their major objection) The affinity they as a group have always had for all things Democratic (include the annual Al Smith dinner in New York as exhibit A if you like)is known to those who have any inkling of American politics over the decades…why deny it? How many homilies have
you heard explaining the principle of subsidiarity which according to the catechism is the Catholic position on social justice programs.  Other than myself and Brother Robert Anthony it has not been raised here in the combox but in all fairness it is abit off the topic…but still in a way is relevant to any discussion revolving around the USCCB, the federal government and the social issues facing the Nation.

I should’ve put “defense” in quotes as I did now because I was referring to the more starchy arch-y traditionalists, some of whom I wouldn’t be surprised to learn hold suspicions about their shepherd’s best intentions.
  When Christians and Catholics get over their overly narrow views on who to vote for based on abortion ... especially when there are some politicians, who albeit “pro-choice” on the issue specifically speaking, nevertheless have stellar stands and voting track records when it comes to a wide range of issues demonstrating that on the whole, they are the most truly prolife candidate running with the greatest chance of winning, the sooner the abortion rates will drop precipitiously, not just incrementally. Yes, it’d be nice to have a president who’ll not only justices who’ll rule in favor of the prolife cases on their legal merits alone…and there are plenty of those… but the same president who appoints those justices will also be unyielding when it comes to defending the social safety net as well.
  But no. Once a politician (usually on the right) who announces with the standard political dog-whistle he or she’s fiscal conservative but also “solidly prolife” ... it seems as if we must all be expected to stop and sing hosanna, here’s the candidate forgetting all the rest of the baggage he or she might bring in tow, such as an uncompromsing Tea Party mentality and stingy streak enough to embarrass the pre-Christmas Eve Scrooge.
  If you’re a Catholic, don’t be afraid to support your bishops and trust in their judgment when they take a stand on these complicated debt/deficit issues instead of the biggest clown bus, not car, but EXCURSION-SIZED BUS OF POLITICAL CLOWNS to be dumped in front of the House and Senate in perhaps all 112 sessions in Congressional history.
  Sure as hell beats locking arms in solidarity with the union busters that the Koch brothers bought and delivered to DC last year. Remember, it’s first the Church, the nation, and the union, if you’re fortunate to belong to one ... that makes you strong ... and then the party with it picks the right man or woman for the job, the most…ON THE WHOLE…prolife candidate, not just the one using the loudest prolife dogwhistle, especially if they’re Republicans: Take a look at this and see if who really cares about the whole quality of human life in America today: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0.

Steven,
With respect, when abortions in this country account for approximately 1 million babies killed every year, it is hard to see how our views our overly narrow.  I have had, for a long time, economically progressive views (though I definitely see the folly in the way things are done right now).  I simply don’t see how even with the most robust safety net and the most robust economy, there is going to be the precipitous drop in abortion that you seem to think will be the ultimate result.
—
I have my economic views not because I disagree with the Church on subsidiarity but because I honestly believe that there are some issues, that are two large for local or even state government or organizations to tackle. 
—
That being said, the progressives in Congress are no longer pushing simply an economically progressive platform, but a social platform that as far as I can see undermines traditional Christian values almost at every corner.

FYI, the USCCB is not going to join “efforts to support or oppose the repeal of the recently enacted health care law….”  This from a January 18, 2011 letter by Cardinal DiNardo, Archbishop Gomez and Bishop Blaire to the House of Representatives.  They respectively are the Chairmen of the USCCB Committees on Pro-Life Activities, Migration, and Domestic Justice and Human Development.

So the USCCB seems satisfied with the 15 member Death Panel Obama will appoint and everything else with the Obamacare except abortion funding and the loss of the conscience clause which they say they will continue to work against.  In other words, rather than joining forces with the overwhelming number of Americans who want to repeal the pro-abortion Democrat-only dictated Obamacare, the bishops choose to work alone on their pet issues instead of scraping Obamacare outright and start over again with a prolife House of Representatives to produce a bi-partisan healthcare reform measure agreeable not only to the Congress but to general public as well.  It means the bishops prefer “universal healthcare for all, including illegals,” which will result in rationing, over all other American citizens’ right to continue to have the quality healthcare that we have now, that is determined solely by ourselves and our doctors.  Seems the U.S. bishops are the formerly known - Blue Dog Democrats, who the American voters kicked out of Congress this past election.  Interesting, isn’t it?  So much for the USCCB saying they are “neither Left or Right, Republican or Democrat.”  Looks like Prudential Judgment wins out over Intrinsic Evil – again with the bishops.

bob, the Democrat created, run, and defended Community Reinvestment Act, supported by the U.S. Catholic bishops from the beginning to its catastrophic ending, produced toxic financial transactions that covered the world of finance and was responsible for the financial troubles that crashed our economy and contributed to the world’s.  What do you think caused all the foreclosures??? that are still a drag on the economy because of the drag they have caused on the housing industry.  Come on, stop with the Democrat b.s. and at least be honest.  Oh, the Democrats don’t know what the means – being honest.  Oh, by the way, why has the Democrat Senate not come up with a budget since the last year they controlled both chambers of Congress?  Is this Democrat new policy to operate without a budget that tells the American public where their money is going to be spent and why?

@MarylandBill: Would you really prefer to let the Tea Party Taliban call the shots? And now look at what an old timer, but a true Sunbelt conservative Republican pol, John Mica has done to the FAA in the name of saving $200M ... he’s cost it billions, and thrown 77,000 people out of work and why? A personal snit and and anti-labor beef he’s long nourished. What the hell, he’s Central FL’s Congressman from Winter Park. Doesn’t that speak volumes with a whopping 7% positive rating from the AFL-CIO. Tea Party Talibanism has eaten through and through the GOP like a raging cancer. It is petty and fit only for small minds with even smaller visions and hearts.
  As for your comments about abortion and the safety net and your inability to see “... how even with the most robust safety net and the most robust economy, there is going to be the precipitous drop in abortion that you seem to think will be the ultimate result. ...” perhaps it won’t hurt for you to look back at the Clinton Administration’s success in pulling both off. Ah, but just the mere mention of anything to do with Bill Clinton leaves it too “tainted” for all but the most open-minded and open-hearted to bother considering.
  All you have left is the rise in states legislating mandatory sonograms in abortion clinics and the slender reeds of hope after you’ve left the poor at the tender mercies of the private sector. That might be fine for the likes of retrograde thinkers like Rand Paul and his father, but I’d like to think Catholics who’ve contributed so much to the shaping of our extensive safetynet in so many ways have not joined in league with the Taliban now running House of Representatives once untarnished reputation as the Peoples’s House into the ground no thanks to the high number of wealthy water carriers for the Koch brothers that were elected last fall largely due to their money and sad to admit, a sit-down voter strike by so many Democratic would’ve/should’ve been voters.
  If you want to go back to the GOP’s idea of the good old days, Hoover and Coolidge’s era, fine, but take yourself and only yourself there; not America’s poor and not so many poor and frightened young pregnant moms who’ve been told in so many ways by so many damn selfish-minded wealthy pols working in the “Peoples’ House” (LOL!... hell it’s the Koch brothers house now!)—“Hey, we’ve got ours, tough luck for you gals and the kids you already have.”
  If you or anybody else wants to join the American Taliban, by all means, go…but don’t take our poor with you and hand them over to a future crafted by Koch Industries water boys and errand carriers.

What about what Holy Mother Church has to say on the issue?

Centesimus annus 48: “In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State” .  This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person.  However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticism of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”.  Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of INADEQUATE UNDERSTANDING OF THE TASKS PROPER TO THE STATE.” (emphasis added)

“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.  In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need.”

@Steven:

The abortion-and-poverty statistics that people throw out to show that Clinton’s safety-net policies reduced abortion are essentially hogwash.  Besides unethical statistical manipulation to prove a point (Jim Wallis of Sojourners actually admitted that the stats were bogus, but he used them anyway to prove support for the poor was more important that abortion), one must recall that Clinton was forced (by Republicans in the House and Senate) to sign into law entitlement reform, which decreased the number of people receiving welfare by creating stricter requirements (and thus decrease federal expenditure for “the poor”).  In the 2006 PA Senate Race, the NYT supported Rick Santorum over Democrate Bob Casey, Jr. because his support of the welfare reform decreased the number of poor by creating motivation and means for getting off welfare and into the workforce.

@Steve (again):  His Excellency Joseph Martino, in his Pastoral Letter for Right to Life Month in 2008 stated emphatically as a matter of the Ordinary Magesterium that the right to Life precedes any other issue: economics, healthcare, education, etc., because without Life, the rest are meaningless. 

As a matter of Church Doctrine, an individual bishop in union with the Bishop of Rome, speaking an a specific matter of faith and morals in continuity with entire Church Tradition, speaks as part of the Ordinary Magesterium, and is therefore infallible accordingly.  No conference of bishops, unless they speak unanimously on a specific question of faith or morals, or unless they seek the approval of the Bishop of Rome, has that luxury.  Thus, His Excellency Martino, being in union with the Holy Father in Rome, and speaking in continuity with Church Tradition (Evangelium vitae comes to mind), is correct: abortion takes precedence over other issues.

Stilbelieve you still insist the CRA was functional across all lenders. As I pointed out, this is NOT true. It doesn’t matter if you repeat a wrong statement 25 times, it’s still wrong. Home ownership went from its historical level of about 64% to about 68% at the height of the crisis. CDO’s, however, went up by a factor of TWELVE HUNDRED PERCENT. It’s YOUR contention an 8% increase in home ownership blew up the economy? Prove it! It’s MY contention that the TWELVE HUNDRED PERCENT increase in CDO’s by WALL STREET did this. Do we have proof? Yeah, we do. AIG, Goldman Sachs, Lehman, et al, had these financial instruments as core parts of their businesses and defaulted on paying them when the market collapsed. So you’re wrong.

So Stilbelieve is an out and out liar. He calls the IPAB part of the healthcare plan a ‘death panel’. Thus the paranoid hatred of the far right for human life. He’d rather see millions have an early grave than allow healthcare reform….typical of the extremist right. The fact is we already HAVE healthcare rationing in this country, by insurance companies. The fact is, as those of use with healthcare experience know, not all treatments are efficacious.  Which do we pay for? Under what conditions? Stilbelieve thinks we should pay for them all…as long as you’re rich enough to afford them. He’s cast his lot…with the moneychangers. What a HORRIBLE example of Catholicism he is!

Gee Stillbelieve and Bob are still havin a Cat fight. I would say in many wats you are both trying to say the same thing if you are indeed both Catholics then you care about people and want what is good for all . Like I said it is a simple matter of economics, Are you a Keynsian or from the Austrian school of thought . Again I hope you are guided by you r Catholic principles and good ole ethics to do the right thing. Also. there is also the Catholic teaching on subsidiarity. Pax Tom

Well folks, here we are again with the good old ” bob/Steven-troll show!”
It’s like a stroll down Memory Lane! Is there a Catholic web-site where they don’t feel attracted to spew their venominous lies against (a) the Catholic Church and (b) Conservative Republicans? mindless of the topic?
When Steven-troll starts telling Catholics to not be afraid to stand with their Bishops and trust their judgment you know you are deep in the land of smoke and mirrors. What greater evidence that the USCCB is doing the Democratic agenda some kind of service than these two bigots urging us to support their political judgment with our trust? This from two guys who have a reflexive gag on all things Catholic? Well, at least we can say they are getting closer to topic anyway.  But not really, for once more we are swimming against the tide of truth with old bob plagerizing and parroting the Huffington Post from which he lifts verbatim all his “FACTS” and Steven-troll huffing and puffing about the Koch Brothers who stick in his crotch like bark on a tree. That is all it is folks…. bark! bark! bark!... the same old anti-Catholic, anti all-things-Conservative bilge they can dredge up from their deep-seated, hate-filled anger… the same-old diatribe backed up with the distorted “facts” and “figures” old bob has memorized from his daily love affair with Arianna..as usual way off target from the given topic which somehow they never “get” unless it someway, however dimly, supports their slanted view…in this case the USCCB. Somebody should red flag these two menaces from the land of Alice and the MadHatter! Would you trust minds that can mix up the Tea Party with the Taliban? American patriots with Middle Eastern terrorists? And never blink or crack a smile? Seriously?
Stand back and duck low while they hurl their nasties, doing the bidding of Arianna’s crowd. Nothing original nor enlightening will ever come from their corner of hell folks..better off going to take the dog for a walk!! This combox has now hit rock bottom with the “old bob-Steven-troll show”! The few bright spots of truth from Aaron, Stilbelieve, et al, even a “pearl of truth” now and then from Maryland Bill were worth the stop, as well as the original article. But you know it is time to say Adieu! when the trolls’ comments fill the combox with stuff fit only for the bottom feeders they attract with their putrid lies.

Steven,
I think you and I have differing definitions for “precipitous”.  Abortion rates might have dropped somewhat during the Clinton years (and note, I don’t think that Bill Clinton is the source of all evil), but not precipitously.  If abortion rates had dropped 85-90% then your argument might hold water.
—
I also find your characterization of the Tea Party as “taliban” to be unhelpful hyperbole.  One of the tragic, and extremely unchristian aspects of our current politics is the lack of charity on both sides. 
—
In any case, for a Catholic, the matter is simple.  Issues like tax and labor policy, and at what level different aspects of the social safety net will be most effective are matters of prudential judgement.  Abortion is an intrinsic evil.  To my mind the proof that the Democrats would improve things would have to be truly remarkable to allow me from this point on to vote for a pro-choice democrat.

Hmm…wonder what alternate reality “Thirst” is operating in. His/her characterization is a not too interesting work of fiction. Huffington post? He’s welcome to show a SINGLE reference I’ve made to THAT publication. Most are from Wikipedia, the “Atlantic” or the “New Republic”. Hardly radical sources of info (unless you’re radically right wing…but, then, any source of info is communist if you’re a Faux news viewer). So, rant away! Facts are facts and you haven’t dealt with a single solitary one. This is what the right does…ignores facts

Where in the scriptures does Christ say that people who make money should pay to the federal government enough money to take care of those who have no job (or do little work)and pay NO federal income tax??
Christ’s words can not be FOUND that teach that high taxation by the national government is the Christian way to care for the poor.

This is disheartening.  There is more passion here for political ideologies than there is passion for the faith.  More zeal for political parties than there is zeal for God.  Look at the way that the partisans are talking down to each other.  Look at the willingness to disparage and disrespect the shepherds of the Church (no matter how imperfect they are, no matter how they may err, they are still the successors of the Apostles).  If you do not speak with love, then you cannot speak with truth.  This is no light on a hill.

All this political messianicism can only distance the true Messiah.

This article is nonsense.  The bishops are correct.

The Bishops are not correct but they mean well if they are not acting as political pols of their Bishoporic but acting out of Love,  ??????

@bob

“So Stilbelieve is an out and out liar. He calls the IPAB part of the healthcare plan a ‘death panel’.”

Tell me, bob, would you trust a “king” whose position on life is that if his young daughters happen to make a “mistake,” that he wouldn’t want them “punished by god” by having a baby?  A “king” on record for his advocating infanticide and abortion for “solving” certain problems?  A “king” who would intentionally say that given the opportunity that he may not send the money his subjects earned and are entitled to if they didn’t give him the power he was demanding?  Would you really trust this “king” to pick 15 people to make decisions for all his subjects’ healthcare needs, especially knowing the immoral beliefs of some of those people?  Do you really think this “king” who dictated his healthcare plans for all people regardless of how happy they were with what they had, would really do what is best for each and every one of us?  Yeah, you would, along with a lot of other people who think they know best what other people should have and do.  We’ve seen people like this throughout history, especially the last hundred and so years.  And that is why it scares the hell out of me.

@wineinthewater…You find this combox dis-heartening? Well you might for very good reasons. JUST WHO STARTED THIS COMBOX GOING OFF TOPIC? If you go back to the beginning you will see the comments contributing rationally on topic… and then, the bob and Steven trolls enter. Right away after the nasty “sex dig” at the Bishops (very offensive and intentionally off topic) the overload begins from the political left rant to the in-your-face anti-Catholic bigotry from bob to be followed shortly by his buddy, the Steven troll! Maybe they are the same guy..their message and delivery could indicate it. It happens every time in all the Catholic blogspots they commandeer with this same pattern of off topic diatribe. It never changes but only becomes more hysterical with each successive entry. It always reaches the point where they accuse those here without serious intent,and of having nothing worthwhile to say. You know what Wineinthewater?  You make a good point but WHY CAST YOUR PEARLS BEFORE SWINE!!  Unfortunately or fortunately..not sure which…there is no Administrator here to close the combox when such inappropriate and offensive narration begins. I don’t blame you for being disgusted…am very certain you have many compatriots that feel equally offended.
Best we ignore the trashers they are and just leave them here to “out-cat” each other. bob is so “in love” with Arianna’s ilk he cannot see the
truth when presented on Fox News or the Faux News he snarkes on about but it only makes him the pinhead he really is! As for Steven-troll? Bless his little hate-filled heart as he rants on about the Koch brothers still again and still completely off topic, as are all the other “mirages” he concocts! Let them go off into the dark night from which they emerged. The unfortunate fact is, like all bad pennies, they will turn up again with the same old, same old! They do get a bit tiresome so let us all take a break!

In said that earlier in fewer words about those two guys. They can give you a head ache they to not communicate like Catholic intellectuals but like two plants to basnh the faith. Peace be with you all and God bless, Tom

Stilbelieve doesn’t know what the IPAB in ‘Obamacare’ is supposed to do so he makes up some paranoid vision. Right now insurance companies are unregulated as to what they’ll cover. The IPAB is made up of healthcare professionals whose job it is to evaluate effective treatments and decide what Medicare will cover. One of the reasons our healthcare costs are out of control is we have NO control over evaluating the effectiveness of treatments. His assertion is like Palin’s lies about ‘death panels’. Those of us who did hospice work know she was lying…blatantly lying. She denied the dying access to information that those of us in hospice KNEW they needed. And ‘Stilbeliever’ is doing the same. For SHAME!

Ron Curry continues the right wing fabrication that the poor steal while the rich are favored of God. Has he never heard what Christ did to the moneychangers? The Beatitudes? When one single hedgefund manager runs a company that sells fraudulent financial products, and he himself bets against them while pocketing almost 4 BILLION in take home, is that what Jesus had in mind? Honestly, Curry is a disgrace. There’s no limit to the shame and twisted language these people will use to justify destroying both our country and the Gospels.

For the sake of all sane people here I will ask:
@bob…What in tarnation does IPAB have to do with this article? Never
mind! I will answer for you…NOTHING!!! You’re bloviating in the wrong blog…confused bob? Your work in the Kervorkian Clinic does not qualify as hospice care! As for the control you would like over Insurance companies? Right now the number of regulations, both state and federal, the Insurance Industry is subject to is staggering. But like all Big government advocates, like you, it is never enough. “IPAB is made up of health care professionals whose job it is to evaluate effective treatments and decide what Medicare will cover”...to what end? is a reaonable question to ask…and the answer as we all know is to control the costs by eliminating treatment plans to certain segments of the population. First it was asserted that those panels never existed in the over 2000 page Obamacare bill. When it was discovered to be true, then it was and still is being denied that the panel’s decisions will adversely affect the kinds of care for the elderly, the disadvantaged, etc that these nine people deem to grant OR DENY…with our tax dollars! to American citizens. Sounds worse than death panels…you can call a pig a cow but it is still a pig and still stinks to high heaven. To get back to the topic! One reason you and the tribe of Arianna are so unhappy today and more vocal with your diatribe is that the Tea Party is gaining momentum, as shown last Tuesday, and you are afraid of being run over in November 2012! Be afraid bob…there is much for you to fear…you and your death panels! FYI…I have worked with current hospice programs No
one is EVER denied any information needed! EVER! As anyone working closely in these programs knows. Nice try to make Stilbelieve out as the liar…WE know who the liar is bob..and you see him every time you look in the mirror! Go troll elsewhere! The fish here are too smart for what
you use for bait to bite!

@bob

“One of the reasons our healthcare costs are out of control is we have NO control over evaluating the effectiveness of treatments.”

No, the trial lawyers are the reason “our healthcare costs are out of control.”  They are “out of control” because of the various test healthcare professionals have to order and conduct to protect themselves against being sued by lawyers who make millions of dollars chasing ambulances.  Costs are also due to the public not being allowed to shop for insurance across state lines.  Right now, each state regulates what an insurance company has to provide in their insurance coverage. That also runs up the cost of health insurance.  The public can buy car insurance across state lines, but the government does not allow them to shop across state lines to get the best healthcare insurance they want.  Now Obamacare will monopolize health insurance and kill what competition is out there, running the price of healthcare up even higher.  Obamacare will force taxpayers to pay more for their care than now, wait longer to get it, and will result in uncontrolled cost resulting in the government having to ration the care, and deny it to those who need it the most.  Don’t forget Obama’s candid comments to two private citizens - Joe the Plumber, and a lady who inquired about her aged mother who was in good health but may be in need of an operation or treatment that would make her ever more well.  Obama’s answer to Joe was he was just interested in sharing the wealth with those coming up behind Joe.  And to the daughter of the aged woman, Obama said that perhaps she’s lived long enough an should just take a pill rather than have that operation.

Why the bishops are taking a pass of Obamacare instead of calling for its repeal and a do-over with the now prolife House of Representatives, I will never know.  Oh yeah, I do - universal healthcare for all; legal as well as everyone who wants to sneak across our boarders with whatever infections they have or problems; that’s why the bishops are taking a pass on Obamacare.  Decent of them, isn’t it!  Yeah, that’s really good for the common good.

Thirst, I wasn’t the one who brought paranoia to this discussion. You can thank your fellow right wing fanatic “Stilbelieve” who claimed the IPAB was a death panel. Your hatred of aid givers is noted, where you disparage hospice volunteers as ‘Kevorkians’. Never heard people like the Dominican Sisters of Hawthorne called death merchants, but if I’m not here to defend people who provide aid to the dying (something you’ve obviously never done.)

To what end does the IPAB work? Have you looked at healthcare costs in this country? You want to double those in the next 10 years? It’s ironic you oppose “Obamacare” so want to deny access to healthcare to the poor, including the working poor. Another lie: you say it was denied these panels existed. Nope. Not true. What WAS denied was that they were ‘death panels’. YOU have never volunteered at a hospice and tried to answer the questions of the dying. I have. You and your fellow fanatics cut the heart out of what could have been very effective answers given to FAMILIES of the dying. What liars you are!

Stilbelieve, do me a favor. Go away and stop listening to right wing talk radio. The ‘trial lawyers’ add only a few percent to overall healthcare costs. Tell you what. You go look up the number of multimillion dollar awards as a percentage of healthcare costs, OK? Go ahead, I DARE YOU! Call my bluff. Otherwise you’re just another bobblehead.

Ya Bob did you get the hint and also your other buddy you like to bloviate with you to are on the wrong site. It sounds to me you are both plants one for MSNBC and the other for Fox. Chill dudes where is the love. Pax Tom

OK!EVERYBODY!!! Only bob-troll knows it all! The rest of us are shoveling sand against the tides as lunatic bobble-heads ever-cursed by our own ignorance. Let’s admit our defeat to this intelligence so supreme it encompasses all wisdom and surrenders to no other opinion.By comparison we are ignoramuses. Perhaps if we concede this he will go away and just disappear,blown away on the wings of self-puffery. We can hope! Really don’t know what else to do to get rid of this pompass donkey!
The other troll at least had the good sense to know when to fold!

Bob what is your solution to controlling health care costs and monitorinfg and evaluating the effectiveness. God bless and Pax , Tom

@MarylandBill: Statistics compiled by researcher Wm. Robert Johnston bear me out in terms of the percentage drop of abortions per live births during the Clinton years. ( http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html )Granted, discussing abortion states can be for policy wonks, political junkies and people who just love to chew over hot topics what batting stats serve up for die-hard baseball fans. Abortion rates might appear to you as inching down during Clinton’s double-term, but when you put them up against all the other administration’s track records (since abortion became radioactive) especially the Nixon-Ford years and the final “high water mark” during the final year of Jimmy Carter’s term, it’s awfully hard to deny the progress the Clinton Administration made; notwithstanding President Clinton’s inexplicable stand (same as Obama’s) on late term abortions.
  Actually, compared to the soothing hot air coming out of the Moral Majority’s icon ... the supposedly “prolife” and “pro-family values” Ronald Reagan ... and of course, the Bushes, Bubba’s team show how in the long run, that protecting the safety net programs is given the legal and political realities surrounding abortion, has proven the best administrative means our national and state governments can use to at least reduce the incidence of abortion since it sure doesn’t look like its abolition is coming forth any time soon.
  Eventually, because it does center on the ultimate civil rights issue, the right to live or at least come into the world unhindered, this issue should be finally dealt with at the Federal level. In the meantime, given the Janus-like approach of the latest incarnation of the “family values party,” the Republicans, with the House’s dog n’ pony show passage of the Pence Amendment designed to defund PPF, and their “Hey, I’ve got mine, you’re on your own mommas n’ kiddos ... Heaven help any so and so who’s gonna get us to impose upon our rich benefactors when it comes to getting the rich to pay their FAIR SHARE ... and don’t you dare deny what you’re asking for isn’t ‘class warfare,’” yadda yadda yadda ... how on earth can you or anybody deny this is going to lead to a rise in the abortion rate?

Hell’s bells, studies on both sides of the Pond are showing a rise in diagnosed cases of severe depressions and even suicides taking place during Tory and Republican party rule (or in our case, gross incompetence and political malpractice fueled by selfishness on a scale never seen at least in my lifetime and I’m almost sixty.)

Do you think for one second that the bishops aren’t aware of this when they spoke out against these cuts imposed by the Taliban that used to be the Republican Party? As for calling them the American Taliban, I stand by it now and will do so again. AMERICAN TALIBAN.

A lot of these dolts went to DC with hardly any experience when it came to running for, winning and serving out their terms in any elective office available for them to run for in their hometowns for which they’d have to serve their full terms. Or, if they became Tea Partiers after they were elected, it was FEAR of being primaried or that the big boys carrying the cash bags trolling in their congressional districts would pick somebody else. And don’t we both rightly suspect how long a shelf life higher principles have when opportunity comes knocking or in the case of some incumbents, “reminding.”
  Hell, I was elected to a representative town meeting in Massachusetts, twice and was beaten twice; both times coming dead or close to dead last when I was beaten. But here’s the other side of the coin, I outpolled by country miles some of my friends elected from other precincts. At least I have, and I know of thousands of other and (certainly more qualified) people who also served in elected town meetings or Selectboards (Aldermen/City Councillors) or even mayors who had far more competence than the cheesy chutzpah so far demonstrated by our American Taliban Tea Party hacks. What experience did Rand Paul bring to the Senate? LOL! (Even Mitch McConnell can’t be blamed for still rolling his eyes faster than the fruits one watches while playing one-armed bandits in casinos. (See what I put up on politician Paul fils on the other combox concerning his father, Ron.)
  What we witnessed last week and carrying into this week with the FAA fiasco brought on by small-minded union-busting pols happens to be just a taste of the bitter fruits of packaged and manufactured ideological divisions we can expect more of in the years to come; many years, in fact. And it’s all because of M O N E Y. Odd isn’t it that the richest nation on the face of the earth has a capitol chock full of lobbyists with beaucoup cash to dump on fear-driven political “leaders” ... but it almost suffered a blown rod or had the entire motor freeze up because of the Tea Party’s willingness to drain the oil out from under ... “just to take advantage of the moment.” The nation’s car only needed to top off its tank but these incompetent boobs decided to destroy the motor altogether just to demonstrate that they can pull this crap off.

Worse yet, a lot of them will claim their Christian beliefs to the hilt if you asked them, even moments after they voted to spike WIC, other child nutrition programs, the FDA’s food inspection program. How many of these idiots do you think would’ve had the guts to face any family who lost a child due to food poisoning that could’ve been detected in time and the perpetrators brought to justice? One House member even proclaimed that the private sector could do perform food inspections than the government! Tell that to anybody up in Maine and elsewhere who lived to offer a differing story about Jack DeCoster’s egg empire. Better still, I’d love to see these Taliban boyos pull their cheery swang song baloney speeches on the superiority of the private sector’s ability to police itself to the victims of DeCoster’s company.http://www.downeast.com/node/24992
  Yeah, let’s keep running to that favorite dogwhistle of the social conservatives (next to the gay marriage issue) ... “He/She’s prolife…dat’s all youse needs to know, now pull da lever.” And keep on pulling the lever and see what you’re going to get; not only more aborted children, but also the wolf under the latest “dressed for success” garb. But you’d better do some digging first or before you know it, the wolf will be eating us for lunch again over and over. No more elephants; it’s all cheap-minded wolves in fine drag sitting down at tea parties bought and paid for by their political godfathers.
  Now I can just hear it, “Well Steven, if you’re behind the bishops, why aren’t you with them on abortion?” To that, if anybody dares to even suggest, much less ask…but go ahead, I’m not afraid… when a voter’s in a position to vote for the most ALL AROUND PROLIFE CANDIDATE, no matter what the pol using the dogwhistle marked “Prolife/Social Conservative…” all the while he’s not saying entirely what he means by “fiscal conservative,” the voter is free to make the (most) “prolife choice” as his or her informed conscience dictates.
  Now I have a question for some of you: Would any of you have objected in the least if the bishops put out a statement that backed the Republican Party candidate all because he or she proclaimed to be “prolife,” notwithstanding how all the rest of his/her stands of the other key issues covered by our Tradition? If not, then you’ve just asked the Bishops to not only break the law, but a long-held tradition of partisan neutrality that served the Church in this country well ever since the ratification of our Constitution. That some other churches are willing to break the law and bare their lack of neutrality is for them to deal with and their pastoral leaders to explain.
  But I can’t help the feeling that a lot of contributors to this combox would give anything to see the American hierarchy lock arms with the GOP. Well, look at the record and ask yourself, what’s the GOP done for the unborn besides T A L K and give out false promises?

Drats!!! Just when it seemed the other jack n’apes had gone south, he turns up again ...with a comment (can I honestly call it that ) longer than a major doctoral thesis! Whew! Too much to wade through so will just try referencing the last and shortest paragraph with… “does the Mexico City treaty, the one Obama nullified as his FIRST act in Office, ring any bells, matey?”? And oh yes, no GOPers hold out much serious hope for the support of the USCCB..nor wish for it! Catholics I know have stronger hopes the Vatican will dis-band them. As unlikely as that is, hope for that is far greater than the wish for a nod from USCCB towards the GOP. A specious argument at best for trying to claim the GOP has been motivated by envy at the Democratic support shown by the USCCB. Frankly, it seems you do not understand the difference between shepherding by a bishop ordained to lead his flock and the political shenanigans of the USCCB! Of course for that matter neither does the majority of that effete and ineffective organization. As a body they hold no real authority…and the Dems are finally waking up to that fact and ignoring them for the most part! No, the GOP has no real aspirations in that direction..nor should they. If the rest of your lengthy diatribe is as flimsy as the last paragraph I am right in not reading.

@bob

“The ‘trial lawyers’ add only a few percent to overall healthcare costs.”

Yeah, “a few percent” - like around 40%!  Why do you think the Dems won’t consider addressing the lawyer cost in any healthcare reform measures?  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - that’s why.  The “good hearted, caring for the poor, fighting for the little guy” party - you know, the pro-abortion Democrat Party.  Wait a minute; how could such good and kind hearted people be the same ones responsible for the continued murder of babies, going on 52,000,000?  That’s as difficult a question to answer as why the U.S. Catholic bishops and clergy, who are registered to vote, are mostly registered in and vote for the pro-abortion party.  The same question could be asked about church-going Catholics in general; 55% voted for this pro-infanticide, pro-abortion President.  Something seriously is wrong with Catholics.  Dennis Prager had a good name for such people – “Moral Moronics.”  Man, if I was a bishop, I’d be raising holy cane with my brother bishops about what we as a Church are doing to our culture, country and world!  This isn’t child’s play as the stock market reminded us today.  Dumb thinking and decisions by the D party is causing all of us to pay a heavy price, but none more so than the murdered babies God created (at least that is what Catholics say they believe, including the bishops, clergy and religious), and their mothers who suffer with what they did.

@ThirstForTruth: “Jack n’apes” ?... hmmm Gotta admit, that’s a new one. BTW, I was just getting warmed up and had to cut it off. A guy’s gotta eat in order to be ready to dispense with his next round of correctives. You only got what I saved up for my MA. Are you ready for the real doctoral thesis ROFL ? I’ll make a deal. I’ll break it into installments, which you can purchase all ten chapters, each of which top off at the usual length of a book and cost only $25.99, but if you reply by midnite and order all of them, I’ll have even have a special free chapter tossed in and drop the price to $20.99. Come on, the clock’s tickin ...
  All kidding aside, be careful not to use that phrase “jack n’apes” around some people known to engage in political pugilistics with Al Sharpton on national television. Yep, that’s a new one. LOL. Trust me, I’m not taking what you said personally. I’m laughing too hard at myself as well to get upset.

“But I can’t help the feeling that a lot of contributors to this combox would give anything to see the American hierarchy lock arms with the GOP.”

Steven, good to see you still bloviating.

As to your question; not interested in the bishops “lock arms with the GOP.”  What I’d like to see is the bishops practice what they preach as to prudential judgment issues vrs intrinsic evil issues.  They say intrinsic evil issues are absolutes.  And prudential judgment issues are best judgment based on a properly form conscience.  You know, the KKK and the NAZI Party did some pretty good things for the “common good” as they saw it.  They just had this one realllllllllllly bad thing they did.  Do ya think the bishops would support those good things those two historical entities did today?  Based on how they accept the Democrat pro-abortion party, I’d have to say, “Yes, they would support those entities.”  That’s the disgusting thing about their position. 

For me, I’d just like to hear them clearly say, “I cannot give my name identification nor my vote to the Democrat Party because of the intrinsic evil they promote, finance and support.  Their position is diabolically opposed to everything I profess to believe in my Creed in church on Sundays, and in what I pray for in the Our Father, the prayer Jesus taught us to pray so that we would know how to talk to God - the giver of life.”  They could add, “When the Democrat Party reverses its position on abortion and supports judges that will overturn Roe v Wade, then I will reconsider my position, but until then, I cannot support the intrinsic evil they support.  The issue is not a political one for me; it’s a spiritual one which I will state publically when and wherever I choose until my First Amendment rights.”

that should be “under my First Amendment rights.”

@Steven…FYI: though you would like to imply the word has racial overtones (like all you progressives that see a racist behind every tree)
it does not have any such racial overtones nor do I have to be careful not to use on national TV in Reverend Al Sharpton’s presence! He has heard far worse I am sure and probably would not have anymore idea what a jack a napes means than the rest of you educated-beyond-your- intelligence types. I am not going to tell you the meaning Mr oh-so-many degrees..look it up as my Mama used to tell me. As for the 20.99 offer?  No thanks!  Why should I pay good $$$$ when old bob-troll gives us the benefit of real FACTS for nothin’...which of course is all they’re worth!
Let me go on record as saying I decline your impugnious offer! And by the way while you are at the dictionary you might flip to the encyclopedia for info regarding the Mexico City Policy! Ignored that one didn’t you?
If you put your $$$ where you mouth is you might have to eat some of your own words as humble crow!

This article is so true and so sad .........  and steven and bob are strange catholics, they sound quite silly going up against thirst and stillbelieve, I think too they’re the same person.

I believe the same person are writing this stuff back and forth. The styles are to similar. The bantar is just the flip side of a coin. hope the company is not doing this just to give the site meaning because it does not.  God bless , Tom

@bob
It really makes you “feel” good to be the moral arbiter…because you are making an argument for people who you think have a Christ-like RIGHT to someone else’s money in the amount YOU think is just…right bob?.... But you fail because you erroneously use Christ’s words and the Bible to justify the GOVERNMENT taking other people’s money and giving it to someone else, and neither Church nor Bible talks about the GOVERNMENT giving anything to people YOU think deserve it! These liberal Bishops fool NO ONE in their efforts to push their liberalism while, simultaneously, reflecting their lack of efforts in areas where CATHOLICS CANNOT DISAGREE….the taking of INNOCENT life ! 
@bob…there is no Beatitude that tells a GOVERNMENT…not a person…a government…to take a certain amount of money and give it to someone else. These Bishops are not economists…Saying that people should be “fair” does not automatically mean that we must adopt and accept what this Socialist President we have wants to do with our ecenomy! We see through these efforts and you and other libs dont like being called out for what you are….an extension of the left wing of the Democrat Party.
As the above article says: “When Bishops use their God-given office to defend baseline budgeting for programs of dubious value paid for by money we do not have, they destroy their credibility.”
Considered yours destroyed !!

Princible of subsidiarity is the teaching of the church our discussion you begin based on this well thought teaching Pax Tom

Ron…if a bank robber has lots of money are you going to tell me he had a right to it? When Goldman Sachs was selling fraudulent securities and betting against them, making 1 guy 3.7 BILLION in one year while destroying our economy, your view is that he’s superior and loved of God because he EARNED that money? You seek to destroy both our country AND capitalism. I am a capitalist. YOu’re a socialist for the wealthy. You’re robustly ignorant of the causes of today’s problems AND you’re proud of your ignorance

So I called ‘stilbelieves’ bluff and asked him to CITE A REFERENCE for his nonsense that malpractice is driving up the cost of healthcare. He said it was 40%. He did not give a reference. IOW he lied. Here’s a reference

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

showing malpractice awards are about 3.6 billion in a healthcare system costing 2.3 TRILLION, or about 0.8%.

So he lied. No surprise. The right wing can’t handle the truth

Ill gains are ill gains breaking the law is wrong, Greed is bad Goldman Sachs had un ethical workers. This is not a Left or right issue you two guys are missing the point. Pax Tom

you both lie and spin the stories. This was about the Bishops involvement in Politics which sometimes is not the bestway to be a Pastor

Bob, you are clearly passionate about your position. My own is much closer to the position of Pat Archibold and Ron Curry. Perhaps the Combox is not the proper place for this discussion, but since left-right recriminations and have appeared to obscure a Christian and (dare I say) charitable mutual search for the Truth (and by that I mean the mind of our Savior), I would like to engage you on this topic. I will promise to refrain from rash judgment (the assumption that the other has evil intent) with respect to you, if you promise to extend the same Christian trust to me. As I understand it, your opinion on taxation is that the wealthy—those with relatively more income than others—should have higher taxes in order to fund government subsidies for the poor—those with relatively less income than others.  Please correct me if I have mis-stated your opinion. As moral guidance for this opinion, you have referred to the Beatitudes several times. Could you please tell me which Beatitude addresses material wealth?
Oremus pro invicem (Let us pray for one another),
Peter

The Church does address wealth and society and goverments their position is simple Goverments and social institutions that govern least govern best it makes more people free amd empowered. All must be with love. Pax Tom

@bob
How silly !....you are the poster boy for ignorance 101. Stick to the topic….where do these Bishops get off telling a government what money it can morally give anyone. ...or what formula is fair, or what President has the best economic plan. THEY DONT HAVE A CLUE !!How about we get the Church to do what the Beatitudes teach….take care of the poor. How bout we care for the poor here in my city instead of the Bishop here (Taylor) sending a feel-good group to Honduras and throwing money away there instead of caring for people in OUR CITY !!! Catholics in our city booby !!
That silly bank robery-Goldman comparison you tried has nothing to do with what money the Bishops think is fair to be taken from me and given to some lazy dood who wont work, gets earned income tax credit, SSI, food stamps, free cell phone, free med care at the ER,and often faked disability. How ‘bout this bobby——YOU WRITE UNCLE SUGAR A BIG CHECK !!!

Ron first defends the destruction of our country by greedy bankers who never contributed ANYTHING to the productivity of the US. Unable to defend his contention that they made this money HONESTLY, he says the bishops should stick to obsessing about sex. Guess Ron stopped reading the Bible right before Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the temple. It’s truly ironic the right thinks we should obey the bishops except when we shouldn’t…just like the left!

Peter, it’s my contention that the wealthy in this society have made their money, often, dishonestly. I offer as evidence the HUGE increase in collateralized debt obligations (increased by a factor of 1200% between 1997 and 2007), the enormous increase in aggregation of assets by the wealthy (500% increase in 30 years) while the middle class got nothing. This country now has the economic profile of a 3rd world country. The right objects to these facts because they think America is a perfect capitalist country and the wealthy are honest and just while the middle class is lazy. The fact is our economic structure needs to be rebalanced in the interests of SAVING CAPITALISM. That’s right. I’m a CAPITALIST. But I’m for responsible REGULATION. I’m not an anarchist like the right. THAT is why the bishops are right to point out economic problems. They’re trying to SAVE this country.

so gentleman what are your solutions to the problems. We all want what is best for all . what is the Catholic teaching. Subsidiarity? with Christian love . Perhaps a goverment that governs least governs best and the business of America should be business not goverment.  Now, note i did not say no goverment so where is the balance?  God bless,  Pax Tom

Again @bob et al…massive misinterpretation of both the right AND the USCCB! You may quote all the number facts you like but you have grossly
and willfully misrepresented the position of Catholics and the USCCB which has no authority as an organization to “commmand” the sheep. The decisions that body makes are the results of what is called prudential judgments. Most Catholics pay little to no respect for what comes out of this organization as most Catholics realize the strong liberal, left leanings of this organization. Most Catholics realize the decisions coming out of this group are based more upon the fact that the majority of Bishops historically have been staunch Democrats and are registered as such. In other words political and not pastoral. Most Catholics feel the USCCB make their decisions based more upon their political leanings than the Catholic teachings they are ordained to uphold. Most Catholics therefore do not look to the USCCB for direction, politically nor spiritually.
Most Catholics KNOW there is a difference between the obedience owed to the Bishop ordained to lead the Diocese he worships in ...and what is owed to this relatively new organization founded in America called the United Conference of Catholic Bishops. Many Catholics are hoping in fact that they will either self-adjourn or Rome will disband them as they have become more of a hinderance to the Faith than a help. Enough about the bishops!
As for the mis-interpretation about what the right does or does not stand for, I doubt that the liberal left really understand the facts about the conservative movement in this country. They could not and continue the falsehoods spread.  The right or what I prefer to call the Conservative
element of the Republican Party…what is now often called the Tea Party
(and I know they are not exactly mirror images of each other)is made up of largely middle class voters..not the radical fringe element nor hugely rich… nor any of the labels given it by the Left for expedient and egregious purposes of their own.  Tea Partiers want to see the size and scope of government reduced. They do not see this country as perfect by any means, least of all as a perfect Capitalist country. They strongly believe in the ideals of Capitalism and are working for a capitalism that is not tainted by government greed, corrupt politicians and NOT driven by Wall Street types and huge sums of $$$ from Lobbyists. And most importantly they are out to destroy this system of government regulations and fines imposed by bloated governments in turn designed to destroy small business and the jobs they create. In short, if liberals, like bob troll, understood what Conservatism was really about/after, they would join in this fight and support the Tea Party in the coming elections which will hopefully turn out those who want to continue to grow government. The
Tea Partiers are not anarchists who riot in streets and circumvent legalities . Rather they are working within the confines of the conservative element of the Republican Party rather than set out to be a third party option. SMART!! The Tea Party is working hard within the law to right the ship of state and set it back on course. The Tea Party is a grass roots organization which is proving to be the undoing of those who want to continue business as usual with the same old proven disasterous results. They are about change that will truly make a difference FOR the middle class that made this country strong, free and proud. Yes, Tom, the government that governs least governs best still. Vote for the Tea Party platform to succeed in the next election. And yes, pray! More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of…

Thirst calls the bishops ‘liberal.’ Liberals didn’t oppose Obamacare. THe bishops did. Liberals aren’t homophobic. The bishops are. In fact the bishops have become an organ of the GOP’s most conservative wing. Thirst hasn’t presented a single position where the bishops are ‘liberal’. And CONSERVATIVES destroyed the independence of our govt by allowing LOBBYISTS to spend without limit (ALL conservatives on the SCOTUS have supported the imagined ‘free speech’ rights of powerful and rich companies). So CONSERVATIVES are focused on getting us the best govt money can buy. We need RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT regulations. Right now we have almost NONE. THIS IS THE ECONOMY right wing policies have produced.

Tom, we need to end the buying of govt by powerful corporations. We need publicly financed elections. We need tax cuts for the MIDDLE CLASS and tax INCREASES for the wealthy to at LEAST the level paid by the middle class (right now the wealthy pay only 15%; we pay 28%). We need to cut defense. We need to cut Medicare and Social Security and increase SS taxes on the wealthy. Right now the middle class is taking ALL the pain and the rich are feeling NONE. THEY created this economy and the middle class is PAYING for it. We need to make it easier to UNIONIZE (the US has the lowest % of unions in the western world and countries with MORE unions have LOWER unemployment).

Inconsistant and convuluted argumentation clearly is not convincing bob-troll! Swiss cheese mentality, full of holes as it is, will
not win elections either in spite of all your huffing and puffing the
Democratic agenda ala the Huffington Post! Consistently and willfully you miss the point of my argument by twisting what I say (e.g. I did NOT say bishops are liberal…I specifically addressed the USCCB as having the same liberal agenda as your party hacks). You will not acknowledge the difference here between the obedience owed the individual diocesan bishop
and the newly formed collective organization known as the USCCB) and what is really germaine to understanding the issue under discussion..not that it occurs to you to stay on topic…EVER! Proving that the USCCB is pro-Democratic is easy for those who look at its history fairly and honestly and don’t go off on their own toot! You are the proverbial brick wall that is impossible to engage in meaningful debate as you go continually off topic with your own personal rant! Adios, amigo! once more I will save my on-line time for discussion with reasonable people capable of some
logical thinking and not mentally constipated by other people’s “facts”
which amount to small-minded opinions. It is impossible to deal charitably as Peter Rother will come to know.

Thirst keeps saying that the USCCB is liberal in the hope that, if he repeats it enough it’ll become true. To date he hasn’t provided ANY support for his assertion. I have pointed out several policies that are far right, supported by the Bishops, such as their rejection of Obamacare and their rabid homophobia. When Thirst comes up with SPECIFICS, rather than doing his Eddy Murphy imitation of ‘trust me’, he’ll have an argument.

Making wild accusations such as “the bishops reject Obamacare” and are
“rabid homophobics” are not assertions or proof of anything other that the bigotry of the one making the asinine charges. “Thirst” has to prove nothing other than to state the accuracy that the USCCB over-all voiced approval for Obamacare with the ONE exception they made over tax-supported abortions. You will find that statement verbatim in any and all responses made by the USCCB at the time to Obamcare in all news reports worthy of note. There were several days of back and forth at the time with the end result that most Bishops were satisfied with the promise of Obama’s pledge to see that no tax dollars would be used to support abortion. The few bishops that INDIVIDUALLY held out were proven to be right as eventually it was uncovered that government funded abortions were indeed included.  Universal health care for all, including the funding of healthcare for illegal immigrants is high on the list of USCCB’s agenda, as it is also of the Democratic Party they by and large support. The charge that the USCCB is homophobic shows how off base the accuser is in understanding church teaching and homosexuality. Since he seems to be beyond any clarification/proofs I have given in the past it is beyond belief he would accept any further proofs I might give. Those commenters here with the use of reason will understand that and forgive me for ignoring any futher of bob-trolls pleas by ignoring them Eddy Murphy imitation charge is not worthy for me to respond as well as simply once more off topic.

The bishops recommended Obamacare be rejected. It should be noted that the initial structure of Obamacare, including the mandate, was developed by the right wing Heritage Foundation. Universal healthcare USED to a conservative position until the right wing go SO far right it became anarchist. So far you haven’t shown anything that the bishops are doing that is ‘liberal’.

Don’t have to bob-troll ..and am not going to try to explain ANYTHING to ya! until you stop playing me and others here for the fool! One cannot get blood from a stone for the simple reason it has none to give. One cannot explain anything to you, bob-troll,even with a mountain of the available evidence because you are not dialoguing…just regurgitating over and over your
convoluted and confused thoughts. I should take pity on you ...and just chalk up your inability to stay on topic to some form of mental aberration. God bless you bob and forgive me for being too willing to continue this circuitous harangue and admit as someone once pointed out that having dialogue with you is impossible and non-productive. Again, Adios! amigo! May the good Lord shine His Light upon you and when He does ..please, bob-troll….don’t demand He give you six kinds of positive proof of His Love for you! and refute your silly claims in ten diffrent languages. You will look the fool! and you can’t win!

Trolls of the world unite! Bob, is Tom going to be surprised to discover we’re not twin-lib-trolls separated at birth. Geesh, where I hail from, a lot of people thought I hailed directly from Hell or Troglodyteville.
  At least ThirstforTruth knows I’m a completely different creature. (Oops, I might’ve given Thirst more grist to grill me on ... but unlike Tom, I know Thirst has a healthy sense of humor.) INever say never that Tom won’t develop one or that he doesn’t have one. Sometimes some of us get all whipped up, myself included, in what we’re writing about and forget where we put our Vitamin (H)umor pills before we plunked ourselves behind our keyboards.
  Just so that there’ll be no more question about any lack of a wall of separation of space between us trolls, allow me to say I was surprised at your mention of the Heritage Foundation with regards to coming up with a “universal health care” program before that well-known rapidly graying fellow who just turned fifty the other day.
  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. After all, Heritage is the last outfit anybody would ever expect to come up with something intelligent as that before our bishops and the conservatives’ usual list of liberal suspects. I’ll bet you dollars served to any donuts served after Masses across the land that some scribe working deep in Heritage’s bowels of archival material containing long ago and substantiated evidence that some genuine conservatives in Germany and Britain…Bismarck and Churchill…had no compunctions in seeing to it that a safety net for the masses was put in place as the industrial revolution was racing in fifth gear during the last decades of the 19th century.
  WOrking conditions, much less living conditions weren’t so conducive towards the maintenance of a well-ordered social structure where the aristocracy and oligarchy would be protected from mass upheavals from a justifiably p.o’d proletariate working class. The blood-fests of the French Revolution, the continental-wide revolutions of 1848 and the Communard of Paris in the 1870s had a way of spurring the people of economic means, class motives and just a health desire to save their own necks to do what they could to keep the peace. This meant keeping the proles down, yet relieved that their health and other basic needs would be met without grinding them in deeper personally-related debt impoverishment. The same idea also held for developing the safety nets, first under the Prussians in Germany, then Britain, et al, did wonders for the middle class, whom Bismarck and other German nobles were wise enough to recognize—were indeed THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS econmically-speaking.
  Well, no wonder the Heritage Foundation doesn’t want to ‘fess up to this basic fact about one of the rare bright moments in conservative social economic history. Why should they worry because it’s not exactly a secret ... especially if at one time in its relatively short history, the Heritage’s “experts” on church/state and social economics, etc., were able to cherry pick what they wished to pull together and rewarm their warmed over stale notions. No doubt they’ll call this “updating.” Let them have their fun. We’ll have our fun, and day, too.
  Actually, Bismarck and Churchill (and/or other forward British thinking pols for that period) were actually a century behind our Founding Fathers,  after the quelling of Dan’l Shay’s Rebellion, “got it” and called the Constitutinal Convention together in 1787. Life in those very confusing and disorganized former colonies that now made up a confederacy of very independent-minded and quarrelsome states … wasn’t much of an improvement over the old semi-feudal and merchantilist system we rebelled against. As for Congress’ “abilities” to meet its financial obligations then … well, let’s say our recent bunch running Congress hasn’t shown much more to be desired of, even though today’s Congress has more powers and supposedly more political training to do what it’s supposed to do, yet the majority of our reps and senators kowtow more to lobbyists making millions more than they do because the lobbyists get right to the[primary] tasks they’re well paid to do. Threaten.
  Prior to Shay’s Rebellion, it was quite common for people to be tossed into the local jug for falling behind on debts. Yo, Congressman Joe-the-deadbeat-dad- Walsh (TP-IL), aren’t you lucky! People actually died in those debtors pens. The Bill of Rights helped to cut down on a lot of that, but Americans have this thing for extracting the last pound of flesh when things get tight, forgetting that one day they too might be missing some weight if some financial or health issue comes knocking on their door. 
  Were the Founding Fathers out to create some Godly nation? NO! Were they out to enact wealth redistribution and social justice programs as envisioned by some wooly-headed pie-eyed academics filled with theories but little results to show for all their late night brain-sessions? NO! The Founding Fathers were, by and large, mostly Christian, but they weren’t there on any divinely inspired mission. Perhaps a good reading of Charles A. Beard’s Economic Interpretation of the U.S. Constitution might give us a better idea. Got it! They went to Philly to pull together the best and brightest, (most of whom were like the big shots today, very well off and well-educated. ) “Those elitists!” They were also scared half to death by Shay’s Rebellion because they knew Shays and his followers had a very long and valid list of beefs. 
  Social safety nets, or the need for them didn’t come into popular play back then as they had during the height (or depths) of the Industrial Age. But the Founders/Fathers/Framers … take your pick… left behind a Constitution that’s a living document and contains plenty of legal “ammunition” to use for the sake of defending the government safety net.
  Psssst, should anybody bother telling the Heritage Foundation that the “ammunition” is found right in the Preamble?
  Well Bob, hope you didn’t mind my putting some “breathing space” between us. Take a good deep breath the next time Tom starts up with his “gotta be the same guy” routine. In Solidarity, Your Comrade Troll from the Peoples’ Republic of Trolls n’ Proles!

That is all well ad good and some of it i agree with but it is how you provide growth and change. We all as Catholics want what is best for all. It is a matter of economics and how you acomplish all this. The church teaches us to have a system that empowers the individual person one must always be cautious of two much goverment intervention. Subsidiarity is the teaching of the Church it is a sound teaching change should happen based on these well thought out guidelines, I mean this is a Catholic site?  God Bless,  Pax Tom

Bob, I don’t see how you answered my first and only question.  You have referred to the Beatitudes several times as your moral guidance on matters of taxation. I will ask the question again. Could you please tell me which Beatitude addresses material wealth?
Oremus pro invicem,
Peter

@Steven

“But the Founders/Fathers/Framers … take your pick… left behind a Constitution that’s a living document and contains plenty of legal ‘ammunition’ to use for the sake of defending the government safety net.”

Please explain what you mean by a “a living document.”  And also explain what you mean by “and contains plenty of legal ammunition to use for the sake of defending the government safety net.”

@bob

“So far you(Thirst) haven’t shown anything that the bishops are doing that is ‘liberal’.”

The bishops have made “prudential judgment” equal to or greater than “intrinsic evil.”  Abortion is intrinsic evil, welfare is a prudential judgment.  That is why half or more of Catholic clergy and laity remain registered as Democrats and vote for the pro-abortion party.  If that is not liberal, I don’t know what is!

We should all prayerfully ask the Bishops to release ALL tax documents for both the Dioceses’ and the Bishops’ personal taxes.  It’s easy for all Christians to talk about taxes as part of ‘faith’; It would be a blessing for the USA if all Bishops showed us their works.

When Bishops actively advocate violating the Commandments not to steal, and not to covet that which belongs to thy neighbor, for purposes that harm the souls of the poor, they should be stripped of their authority and made to reread St. Thomas Aquinas.

If the deficits are going to be fixed ‘on the backs of the poor’ the church has no one to blame but herself.  Where does the church suppose the funds for these programs come from?  As the bishops sit back and watch abuse, the ‘workers’ lose more and more of their paycheck to the ‘poor’ single mother who has decided the government makes a better daddy than the sperm donor, the ‘illegals’ become ‘undocumented’ and are encouraged to steal from the taxpayers with the blessings of those same bishops. 

When the church starts condemning sin, publicly excommunicating baby killers and the party they belong to, and speaking against sloth and persons who steal through the generosity of others, they will find their pews filled.  Till then, those who have a good relationship with God find prayer partners elsewhere.

Oldmonster, it was Wall Street, not the illegals, that destroyed our economy in the last 3 years. We need bishops who aren’t afraid to talk business ethics and to have banks regulated like some want to regulate sex lives.

Peter, ever READ the Beatitudes? Do they mention the POOR? And WHERE can you prove the RICH earned their money honestly because WALL STREET DID NOT.

sorry, but it was the corruption of fannie/freddie/housing markets/democrats that destroyed the economy, the future of our children, the retirement of the current crop of elderly.

Community Reinvestment Act, forcing banks to give mortgages to people who could not afford them, enabled by community organizations like acorn and ‘poverty’ pimps like the church caused this downfall.

Taking from one citizen to give to another is stealing; no matter how fancy a dress you put on her, a !@#$% is a !@#$%.

These last two or three comments are examples of mixing up the Church as an institution…with the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ.  We do not worship the first but rather the latter. That is what should keep all faithful Catholics in line with Church teachings…even suffering the current scandals and problems affecting our relationships with the hierarch….and remaining faithful in the pews.
Remember Christ came while we were still sinners. Let all those who are without sin be the first to leave…the Church is a “hospital” for sinners…not a refuge for the perfect! The “perfect” will always be uncomfortable in the Church Christ instituted for the salvation of our
souls. There we are constantly reminded of our need to repent..and for absolution and there only can we receive grace from the sacraments.  As Peter answered Christ who questioned him who would leave…” Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; we have come to believe…You are the Holy One of God”.(John 6:68)
All Catholics tempted to leave the Mystical Body of Christ should first meditate upon these words carefully and prayerfully, forgiving those in the institutional church as we ourselves expect to be forgiven our many sins. Remember when you reject the Church, meaning the Mystical Body of Christ, you reject Him.  Why barter your eternal soul for the likes of afew bishops…even for all of them?

@StillBelieve: I was getting worried for awhile since I haven’t gotten a jab or two from you in quite a while. First of all, I wasn’t referring to a “Second Amendment solution.” LOL. Best leave that for the Three Lady Stooges of Tea Partyism; Sharron Engle (come came up with that doozy), Sarah, aka ““The Barracudda, aka “Mama Griz” Palin and Michelle, (who knows what she reloads in her tea!) Bachmann.
  If the Constitution was not intended to be a living document, viz a legal straightjacket for all times, the Founding Fathers never would’ve allowed for it to be amended; period. Some of them didn’t, and let’s be thankful to those who did and stood their ground. How is it that some people, who are of sound and able mind, nevertheless have no problems doubting the “living document” view while at the same time call for a “Balanced Budget Amendment”?
  I’m not going to say individuals like yourself who don’t buy the “living document” view should give up your rights as enshrined into law (and paid for by the sacrifices of so many brave men and women in our nation’s history). They are your rights to use as an American, beginning with the First which protects your right to say and believe what you choose (of course within reason, and not just the old “yelling fire in a crowded theater” example, but we also have laws protecting individuals and companies from slander and libel, etc.) Of course you, as an intelligent reader/combox contributor, realize this StillBelieve. I wish there were more of our fellow citizens would take the time to even grasp a smidgen more of the legal protections they enjoy and take for granted.
  I will ask hypothetically-speaking—if somebody’s going to take a stand against the “living document” theory, doesn’t that also undercut his argument for seeking a balanced budget [amendment] and seeking other legal means to achieve the same end; the end of open-ended rolling credit card budgeting, for lack of a better phrase.
  What I meant by “ammunition” can be found in the Preamble:
  “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
  Imagine the furor, no doubt much of it taking on an understandably violent form some state on its own, decided declare null and void all of the first Ten Amendments in the Bill of Rights, and for good measure to make all hell would break loose in that woeful patch, also tossed out the 13th and 14th Amendments. Never mind secession, this is a serious case of mental secession; not an entirely unknown malady wich seems to have taken a much stronger hold on our political caset lately.) Yuks aside, you can see where without the counter-balancing Preamble at the very top of the document, and all it opens the door to, just to keep the place from completely going to the dogs, provides us the necessary legal “cement” to keep our society from indeed changing places with our canine pals locked in kennels. I’ll admit, I should’ve used “cement” or even “mortal” instead of “ammunition.”
  You might still say, “Yeah, well, if so much is already packed into that Preamble, why do we need the Bill of Rights.” The problem with using the Preamble, and its a problem encountered and rehashed over and over by both conservatives and liberals alike whether relying on the Preamble is sufficient enough ... I’ll come down on the side of anybody, ideological leanings notwithstanding, that the Preamble has to be balanced by the more specific Rights contained in the Bill of Rights.
  There was a guy in Austrailia who recently chain-saw-carved the finger gesture and plunked the thing on his front yard. Outside of any carefully drawn up muncipal laws or sometimes the even stricter neighborhood property covenants, I’ll bet that guy would’ve only faced at most, an outside chance of a lawsuit filed (by the person he was intending to insult) on grounds of personal injury, injurious and grievious mental pain n’ suffering and so forth. Yeah, I know, and it’s ridiculous. (Now the neighbors might have a far better chance in this country suing to have it removed on the grounds of property value losses.)
  In Austrailia, this guy, living as he does under laws not only inherited from Mother England, but also her dangerously and purposely vague laws governing free speech. In blunt English, free speech in ye olde remnants of Her Britannic Majesty’s former empire ain’t free or anywhere near it.
  A “living document” like a frequently updated will, provides a lot more freedom, or inthe case of a will, peace of mind, from the loss of one’s complete rights of general or particular welfare and last moments of “tranquility” when that ever greedy relative comes into one’s nursing home room smiling for all the bucks he or she expects to get; but not knowing that through treating your will as a living document, by keeping it forever “amended” to meet the exigencies ... you will have the last laugh when your will is finally read out to those truly loving survivors who haven’t been arrested for first degree murder.
  Now watch, some wise guy’s going to ask, “Is book ‘em Dano: Murder One” in the Constitution?

Nope, oldmonster. As usual you have your facts wrong. Home ownership went from 64% to about 68% at the height of the housing bubble. That alone did not have the financial firepower to destroy the economy. What did it was NOT the CRA, which covered only ONE of the 25 largest bankrupt mortgage companies. It was Collateralized Debt Obligations which went from 320B in 1997 to SIXTY TWO TRILLION in 2007, enabled by Consolidated Supervised Entities, invented by the GOP. These CDO’s were, at one time, worth more than the ENTIRE US. When THEY went belly up THAT trashed the economy. So try and avoid listening to right wing talk radio, OK? You’re not mature enough to handle it!

Hey, back to topic! Which as the title indicated is about the debt deal of last Tuesday…and were the Bishops ( the USCCB ) the biggest losers in that deal, as Armstrong here suggests? If you need to discuss all the
irrelevant issues being introduced by the trolls here…go ELSEWHERE or get your own blog! STICK TO THE TOPIC… and don’t let the trolls re-write history here with endless doctoral thesis. If no one responds to their inflammatory remarks they will either come back on topic ( unlikely) or go away!( one can hope!)

Bob, I have twice asked you a single question. Your last response only asked me three questions without answering mine. An introduction to the Beatitudes may be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church beginning at No. 1716 (Mt 5:3-12). I will try one last time. You have referred to the Beatitudes several times as your moral guidance on matters of taxation. Could you please tell me which Beatitude addresses material wealth?
Oremus pro invicem,
Peter

I love it when Catholics try to “proof text” in order to “settle something” in a debate over contemporary issues. For Protestants, resorting to “proof texting” is a necessity since the Bible is their end all for “authority.” Not that using the Book written by Catholics is a bad idea; it isn’t at all. However, it’s just too bad American Protestants—especially those more more hard-wired for fiscal conservatism Protestants—have been following a very bad strain of the original heresy that’s been terribly infected with Calvinism.
  They’re hell-bent to make sure everybody’s going to be “held accountable” in all this budget/debt squabble, and if need be, before even finding out what the true and wider ramification of these “necessary” budget cuts will have on real human beings, not just columns of numbers they insist upon balancing out. In order to show they’re not all that heartless, they dress up their otherwise stern political demagoguery with promises of transparency in the way these cuts will be made. (Yep, just like all the other promises God’s Own Party have broken thus far since they took over the House in January. About the only hearings they’ve kept their promises for making “open, transparent” and the pols shown “in action” are the House Rules Cmte hearings. Given the amount of fairness shown during those hearings, I can see why they started breaking the rest of their promises about “accountability and transparency.” Thanks to CSPAN, the whole world got to watch in on some of the stingiest, tight-fisted and downright petty people ever elected to serve in any capacity higher than the proverbial village dog catcher!
  Ah, the joys of watching short-sighted political stupidity infected by a deep strain of Calvinist heresy! Now we get to see what America’s fiscally minded conservative Christian crowd has become. Now I’m bunching both cheap Catholics and cheap Protestants together, as they well deserved to be bunched in this genuinely ecumenical/bipartisan march off to see who’s the most truly “American” (e.g. Calvinist) when it comes to making the poor of this country feel less wanted and the wealthiest among us actually believing all the compost about God blessing the elect, (e.g., wealthiest) because of their faith or whatever reason.
  I’ve yet to find this in any Catholic Catechism. Maybe Paul Ryan’s getting together with some of his ultra-capitalistic Catholic pals and publishing a “catechism” of their own to meet the zeitgeist where in their odd worldview, there’s room for both the Church’s teachings and the selfish views of Ayn Rand. Given the amount of smarts Ryan demonstrated in his “Medicare Reform” idea this past year, it wouldn’d surprise me in the least to hear he sought an imprimatur from the Acton Institute, forgetting all the while that Acton is not part of the Magisterium.
  You’re right Peter, according to Matthew, Jesus didn’t use the word “material” or “wealth.” Allow me, however, to list some things he did say in the Beatitudes that should give you pause before resorting to the Beatitudes to justify the rank odor of stinginess that’s pervaded our political discourse far too often this past year; especially in the House of Representatives:
” . . . Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall possess the earth.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart,
for they shall see God. (Catholic OnLine)
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.”
  Really now, were the many GOP/TP millionaires who were elected last year “poor in spirit” with the really poor, the unemployed, college kids or single working-age moms looking to find loans to attend college so they could improve their chances of living better than a pay-check-to-pay-check “lifestyle” and give their kids a better chance? Were they in spirit with the homeless veterans, the disabled, the elderly they didn’t give a rip if they lost out on SS, just so long as those tax loopholes and other goodies weren’t eliminated?
  How “meek” or humble were the bunch who took over DC this year with their uncompromising stands on behalf of the ultra wealthy, notwithstanding how all this flew in the face of Jesus warning in his parable about the goats and sheep? I guess if you’re one of the “elect,” you don’t have to worry about being meek or humble. They’ll never possess the earth, except it’s junkyards like the people living in our present-day Hoovertowns or underneath highway overpasses. Some of those meek inheriting that kind of world are veterans sent to fight in Iraq so we could have more oil and Halliburton could line its pockets more. Guess what, Halliburton, which received a whopping tax break, still lines its pockets and China is now in control of Iraq’s first refinery to open since we toppled Saddam, eight years ago. 
  I’m going to skip to where Jesus talks about the “clean of heart” and “peacemakers.” Can anybody really be at peace with himself/herself given the direction our country’s taken when it comes to how it treats its poorest. And can you really be at peace with yourself, Peter, in hiding behind Jesus’ deliberate use of general words to imply a far wider realm of areas we can all improve our thinking and acting ... without having to resort to the “Show me in the Bible,” or for that matter, the Tea Partier’s “Did the Founding Fathers put that in the Constitution ... or don’t tell us, you believe that the Constitution is a living document?”
  Guess what, I’m one of those who believes the Bible isn’t and never was intended to be taken literally for the sake of snagging people on the slightest picayune reasons. Nor did Jesus. That’s he meant when he said he wasn’t going to change a thing. In other words, he sure as heck wasn’t going to waste his precious time arguing with professional arguers, the Pharisees. But I see this kind of Pharisaical “gotcha” nonsense happening in the Register’s comboxes far too often. And as far as the Constitution is concerned, that too is not to be text-proofed except by lawers in the context of the cases they are working on as officers of the court, not lay debaters of constitutional law for the sake of up-manship in political debating matches.
  The Bible doesn’t need amendments because it was given by God, but even God never intended it to become a straightjacket; something Jesus tried very hard and not with entire success to get across to his people of his time. But the Bible, though finished, remains a Living Document because of its original author and His intention that it remain in our hearts to guide our souls for all time. The Constitution, however, is not a divine document, nor was it ever intended to become the framework of some 21st romantic mythical phooey called “Christian nation.” And if anybody needed any proof that it’s a “living document,” we only need to say one word:
a m e n d m e n t s.
  If I could add a few good quotes into the Good Book about the dangers of unbridled wealth and unattended-to-poverty ... especially by people who’d rather hide behind their ivory towers and pulpits to defend nostalgic dreams of a return to the “good old days” when the federal and even states local governments barely took care of anyone or anything, and if one fell through the cracks, (“Well, tough luck, looks like we’ll be seeing you all on the town’s poor farm”) ... what rubbish for pseudo-“solutions” for cutting costs and “helping the poor” ... one observation made by Franklin Roosevelt hits it right out of the park:
  “. . . It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.”
  Instead of proof texting the Bible to find reasons NOT to support necessary government programs that have shown themselves to have done just what the Lord asked of throughout his entire three year ministry, it’d behoove our fically conservative Christians to be more inventive in ways of discovering the good government accomplishes for our elderly and youngest. Just ask any mom dependent on WIC for her kids and ask any recipient of Meals on Wheels. That can’t be asking too much, right?

WHO are the POOR?  Look around our society.  I don’t see a heck of a lot of economic poverty.  Furthermore, economic poverty is not what the Scriptures address. The poverty of the Beatitudes is the poverty of SPIRIT, i.e., blessed are they who recognize and worship the Lord as our creator and sustainer.  Now, there are a heck of a lot people who lack poverty of spirit, and this plight will never be fixed by the immoral redistributive economic policy of Obama and the Dems.

If you are having trouble finding the poor, I suggest you go your local Catholic Charities soup kitchen. 
—
While it is true that compared to most of the world, most “poor” Americans are only relatively poor, there are real poor people in this country.  There are fathers and mothers who can no longer make their rent payments, there are elderly who must choose between food and medicine, there are people who have their gas turned off in the middle of a mid-west winter. 
—
I am not qualified to judge whether or not the economic policy of the Democrats is inherently immoral, or just ineffective, but I do think that simply eliminating the programs is not the solution either.  One can’t simply pull the rug out from people who have come to depend on welfare, unemployment, social security, etc.  Rather, they need to be weaned off it and those programs need to be replaced with plans that might provide the safety net that is needed while at the same time encouraging the recipients (who are able) to ultimately stand on their own two feet.
—
To borrow from the old Chinese Proverb, it might be a better idea to teach a man to fish than to simply give him a fish, but if you have been giving him a fish, it would be wrong to stop giving him a fish unless you first showed him how to fish.

MarylandBill, I’ve worked at Our Daily Bread many times and I simply cannot define those who attend as “the poor”.  If you put a sign outside of McDonald’s that says, “Free Hamburgers Tuesday”, the line will wrap around the block ten times over on Tuesday.  Those people in line are not at all necessarily “poor”.  Many are simply opportunistic, taking advantage of “FREE”.  They can survive perfectly well without the handout.  The same is true for any entitlement program, including my local Catholic Charities soup kitchen.  I’m tired of this mentality.  I’m tired of this misguided compassion.  Let’s get back to a little personal responsibility and personal sacrifice, especially on the part of the half of our nation that contributes nothing to the tax base.  I’m all for helping those really in need.  I personally contribute much of my time, treasure and talent to the needy.  But I want good stewardship on the part of those providing assistance.  Don’t enable bad behavior and sinful human concupiscence.

@IKC: If Fox & Friends needs a stand-in or a side-kick for Steve Doocey, perhaps you should apply. Your talking points about poverty mirror the nonsense these people spew out on a regular basis. What a big hearted poster you are.