Lost in translation indeeed. I once knew young priest who confided to me that he and his friends referred to any priest ordained between 1966 and 1980 as part of the “lost generation”

Wow. I remember last year that my friends and I were pretty hesitant about the new translation, because we do like many of the prayers as they are now, but rather than fight something that will ultimately benefit all Catholics, I just sighed and said I was going to trust Holy Mother Church. My school’s young chaplain looked at me and said “Now THAT is the right answer.” Since then, we’ve all become more excited about the changes, and having heard some of the parts of the Mass and read some of the prayers, I cannot imagine how the current translation could ever compare to the new.

Unfortunately I missed what evidently was a dynamic sermon a couple of weeks ago from Msgr. about the upcoming change in the translation.  He’s definitely pumped and he certainly cares.

I also heard another homily by the other Priest at our Parish, discussing the faults of the four-hymn sandwich and how the Church is looking to re-emphasize antiphons.  Again, he certainly seems to care.

What a lazy fool, not caring a fig about the rubrics of his profession.  Then again, he was probably just drunk.  If I had to be a priest in this age of decadence and scandal, I would probably choose to medicate myself in just the same way.  Daily.  However, I like to think that I wouldn’t be stupid enough to poison myself with that blended crap.  That should have been your first clue.

My church has been doing a weekly series on the new translation where they give out pamphlets explaining the changes. They have also started incorporating the new Lord Have Mercy and Gloria at all the masses. It’s been awesome and many of us are very excited about the changes. I sometimes say the responses under my breath.

My only complaint was that one of the music directors inserted a ton of his own commentary when they began teaching the congregation the new music. OK, you’re not happy, you liked your pretty music, you’re being forced to do this and you’ll probably mess it up because chant is SO hard, but do you really need to air that to the entire congregation? Do your job, encourage others to be obedient, don’t spread discord and complain in private.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD4VlsLIZfI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

This is a funny video about this subject

If you were a priest taught in the 60’s by anti-establishment yahoos: please retire.  Your time is done.  Thank you.

Pat, I understand why you wrote this article.  However, it makes me sad to read articles where people tear down priests.  Anyone who knows you and your wife will be able to tell which priest you wrote about.  Even if his identity had been completely concealed, this article still makes that particular priest, and priests in general, look bad.  Every priest we have had at our parish in the fifteen years that I have been here has been extremely dedicated and reverent.  I know there are priests with more faults than those in my own parish, but there are SO many wonderful, holy priests out there… why not write about them? 

Look at the comments you already have here.  One person who never even met this priest called him a “lazy fool”.  Another introduced the sweeping generalization that all priests ordained between 1966 and 1980 are the “lost generation”.  Your article inspired other people to put down priests they don’t even know. 

Furthermore, it looks like you’re trying to take credit for the priest having announced the new courses in the Sunday bulletin.  You spoke with him on Friday, the courses were announced on Sunday… he obviously had them planned ahead of time, and had already submitted the information to the bulletin, but the way you tell the story, it looks like you influenced him to hold the classes.

I do not think that you intended any of these negative consequences, but please, please, be respectful of priests.  Those who have committed truly evil behavior need to be removed from the priesthood, and we should not defend them, but most priests are holy men who have faults they are working on like the rest of us, and we ought to support them instead of tearing them down.

I like going to the EF Mass exclusively, but if I do go to the OF Mass, it’s during the week with no music, etc.  But I still look forward to the new translation.

Sad,

I am not tearing down anyone.  This is what the priest said, in public, for many people to hear.  It is what he thinks.  It is what he believes.  I have faithfully retold it.

Further, you are mistaking two different priests for one.  The priest in question is not my pastor.  My pastor is great.  I think this is clear since everyone else seemed to get it.

Thanks for the post. So real and sad. The times, they are a changing.

@ Sad
I, like you, am very protective of our good Priests.

HOWEVER, the Priest in this article in being willfully disobedient, and publicly stating his opinions in direct opposition to the Holy Father.

This kind of Priest gives our good Priests a bad name!

It’s a sad reality that there are some Priests like that out there.

What I took away from Pat’s article is that there are a few disobedient Priests out there (so don’t listen to them!)  And, there are Priests who are joyfully listening to Holy Mother Church, and doing their job.  (Listen to them!)

Because I do agree that it is important for the faithful to be respectful towards priests, I believe it is perhaps more important for priests to be respectful towards female laity, wives and mothers, in public.  It is a two way street and when addressing a wife and mother in public, a priest should be mindful of the other’s dignity.  I fear that this priest would be pleased if others observing felt free to then disrespect another in following his example. The people who oppose the new translation of the Mass I don’t think would think that this behavior is justified.

Interestingly in the Maronite liturgy, the priestly prayers of consecration in fact are in Aramaic, and they are chanted and most beautiful and reverent.  Why should the faithful be denied the reverent and sacred qualities of the Mass merely because the prayers are in English?  This to me doesn’t seem right.

On a tangential note - can something be done about priests who translate the translation - inserting their own little “inclusions” (like bugs in amber) and altering the grammatical structure? I am a lit major and I WANT THE TEXT THE WAY THE TEXT IS! Also, I am praying a novena three times a week that the new translation will do away with at least some of the non-sequiturs. As for priests of the “lost generation” the problem often seems to me to be not their theology, but their inability to move on from ‘70’s PC verbiage. Let’s pray for them; it will benefit us!

It sounds a LOT like FATHER was the one who “had his drink on”, if you ask me!!!!

You are lucky you are getting Franz Schubert.  We’ve still got Marty Haugen.

Would like to see “become for us” eliminated, as it is in the Third Selection” of the Mass

Sounds like Father would feel more at home in a Protestant sect than in the Church. Don’t let the sacristy door hit you in the bumm on the way out.

Two words:  Latin Rite

How was the food?

I like the way you stood for your wife while keeping your respect for the office of the priesthood - despite the imperfect incumbent thereof.

Wow!  Ignotus…really?
Who is it again, that has an agenda?

Ignotus went bye-bye.

The Church is in a state of complete and total collapse. The majority of our priests are not prayful men as is obvious when attending Mass in any parish. The Mass as celebrated in the majority of American parishes is sloppy, informal, and at times vulgar. I just attended a funeral Mass where the priest yelled up to the choir loft to not use a “celtic allelua” the rest was down hill from there. Priests don’t follow the translation in force now and they aren’t going to stick to the new translation either because they will not be told by anyone what to do. And they don’t care about rules or the Church or God. Good heavens they molested children for decades and nothing was done and you think they are going to follow liturgicals norms. It’s not going to happen.

This reminds me of a Mass I went to a couple weeks ago. The priest was talking very negatively about the changes coming to the Mass. He said, “I don’t mean to alarm you, but they are bringing back Latin.” I was like, “Say whaaaat?!” And then he went on to say if they make him turn his back to the congregation he wasn’t going to refuse. That is when I went to my happy place to stop listening to this crazy priest!

To all Baby Boomer priests: please retire.

Thank you,
Sean

As a teacher of languages and literatures, and as a tetralingual person myself, I have to agree with Father here, although his attitude about it was not respectful at all.  Note, I am not defending his demeanor nor his flippant attitude.  However, language is language.  Tower of Babble anyone?  The only reason that Latin became the language of the Church is because it was the language of the Roman Empire.  And, frankly, Church Latin is somewhat !@#$% from the original Latin and closer to the Romance Languages it engendered than that of the original language of the Empire.  I say this not as a point of attack, but because we are getting into an argument about semantics and NOT about Faith.  The differences in the words used at Mass are minuscule and - while I find more similarities in the new words with those of Spanish and French, for example - I find that it is an unnecessary change for what is the importance and power of the Faith in our hearts and the guidance of Mother Church in our lives.  I would much rather have the Church focus its energy on bringing back the faithful who have strayed and in serving the poor and needy, than creating such a stir over linguistic lexicology and semantics.

Philip, the Church can walk and chew gum at the same time.  It’s not an either/or proposition, meaning the Church can alter the liturgy so that it more accurately reflects the Latin and offers deeper theological meaning while simultaneously working to the bring the lost sheep into the fold. Second, the reforms of the liturgy are hopefully a means by which to bring the lost sheep back.

Philip wins the funniest comment award!

“As a teacher of languages and literatures, and as a tetralingual person myself”

“However, language is language.  Tower of Babble anyone?”

Babble.  Now that is funny!

I tend to think the “Aramaic” argument is not so much an argument in favor for returning to Aramaic, but for avoiding the question of an authentic translation of the Missale Romanum. I think they want to avoid translation altogether and come up with a completely new liturgy in their modern language. Well, so long as we are members of the Roman Rite, we’ll use the Roman liturgy, translated or not.

As if the people who make the Aramaic argument would actually want to pray in Aramaic (as spoken in the days of our Lord… another dead language, no?).

Thanks be to God, the times are changing! I’m in my early twenties and think that my generation has been waiting and anticipating these changes. Brick by brick…

Obviously I trust the Church implicitly on matters such as this.  There is a reason why translations need to be authorized. 
—
Just a quick point, with respect to Philip, I think the new translation will be more faithful in at least a few places.  I think there really is a difference in meaning conveyed by the term consubstantial as opposed to saying “one in substance with” the father.  It might be an obscure theological point to most people, but to the few who know, it will matter.
—
Final point, I actually would like to see the translation tweaked every decade or so.  One of the big challenges I find in attending Mass is that it becomes so familiar that it makes it far to easy for me to go on auto-pilot; my lips say the responses, but my mind is somewhere else.  These small changes will force me to pay more attention for a while :).

Daria (what a beautiful name!), that’s so very sad even if it is true.  But they were victims and there was no internet back then.  You had to live through those decades to know what it was like.  It wasn’t easy to get to the truth.  We were overwhelmed with “propaganda”.

Thank God Almighty that baby-boomer priest are going the way of VHS and Betamax, and not a moment too soon.

Why is it that one feels obligated to entertain the discourtesy of liberal priests with discussion, while when conservative priests are discourteous, the bishop is immediately and actively involved?

Charles said: “Thanks be to God, the times are changing! I’m in my early twenties and think that my generation has been waiting and anticipating these changes. Brick by brick…” You’re in your early twenties and talk like you’ve been waiting as long as a guy like me who was born when the Mass was still in Latin.  You got some more growing up to do before you talk like that.

Also, I myself am saddened by folks here who want to throw the baby out with the bath water.  They want all priests over a certain age discarded, left out at the curb for trash pickup.  Shame on you!  My priest is in his mid-60’s and loves latin and reveres the Mass.  He would make Benedict proud with his concern for a proper celebration.

On the other hand, I know of a pastor much younger who tells women considering divorce that they should simply have what he calls an “Irish marriage” (he’s Italian, very Italian, meaning that being Italian is more important to him than being Catholic).  Apparently by Irish marriage he means stay married but cheat when you can.  All that did to one woman I know was convince her to leave her marriage and the Church.

There’s plenty of chaff with the wheat, but let’s not get all worked up over it.  Let’s pray that the Lord of the Harvest clean’s things up in His time, and that the time be soon.

Patrick-

“But now that your generation has its input, no more changes allowed?  Don’t you think that is kinda selfish?”

I am sick to death of this generational war that you and other bloggers such as Barbara Nicolosi and Fr Z are fomenting. It’s inaccurate and dangerous, it does nothing to promote unity in the Church, but is fomenting disrespect for Catholic elderly based on stupid generalizations, does NOTHING to advance the Benedictine reform, a reform being driven by an 84 year old man by the way. I doubt very much that Pope Benedict XVI needs or wants this kind of help.

Lee,

As for your breathless and baseless accusation, I am fomenting no such thing.  I was simply using his line of thinking against him.  I would use your line of thinking against you but for…

Well, you know.

“I would use your line of thinking against you but for… Well, you know.”

HAHAHA! (Sorry, my bad…)

And yes, the priest was truly rude and uncultured. Kudos to Pat.

“Father.  Don’t you believe that the liturgy is a living and breathing thing shaped by each generation that has prayed it?”
“Yes, absolutely!!  Exactly.’

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/a-priest-lost-in-translation#ixzz1Zw9HtYuv

Excuse me? How many years was the Mass said in Latin and done with the same gestures and actions? What is this business about “shaped by each generation”.

And that’s another thing. Every time “THEY” change it they imply or just come right out and judge the previous Mass as deficient. I recognize that The Church has the authority to bind and loose but I wish THey would not mess with The Mass. Don’t THEY operate under a rule that says one Encyclical or Dogma may not contradict another? It seems to me that when THEY come out and say the NEW Mass is better, more biblical, more accurate, more or corrected, they are doing just THAT!

The RULES are getting to be like the US Constitution, they ignore it anytime it doesn’t suit them. Isn’t our job to accept what is handed down and not to make it up as we go along? (as Father Corapi once said)

Prayer - God please guide Fr Corapi back to the fold. Remind him that he himself said - Don’t run from suffering….. Padre Pio endured the same persecution by the Church for many many years.

I wonder how many here have read, “AA-1025” Memoirs of the Communist Infiltration Into the Church, by Marie Carre?

...explains a lot of what happened to our priesthood these past decades.

Kevin,
There are a couple of things I think you need to keep in mind.  The exact form of the Mass is not a Dogma or Encyclical.  Over time, provided certain essentials are kept intact, the rite can be changed.  This happened with the introduction of the now Ordinary Form of the mass.  In smaller steps it has happened with what is now referred to as the Extraordinary Form.  Prior to the Council of Trent there were many different rights that were used, and even after Trent, the Eastern Rites, the Carthusians and the Archdiocese of Milan retained their own distinctive rites. 
—
None of these changes necessarily imply that one rite, or form of the rite is better than the other in any absolute sense, but rather maybe better adapted for the circumstances of the times where it is used. 
—
Finally of course the current changes are not a change in the rite at all, but rather an updated and corrected translation.

Kevin,  Thanks for noticing the remark about shaped by every generation. What the translation is supposed to do is be FAITHFUL to what was handed down by the Apostles and other generations!  What is so wonderful is that the Mass we attend should correspond to the Mass of EVERY generation.  We are all joined in prayer from the time of Christ til now as we listen to the Gospel and readings and receive Him in the Eucharist. That is just such an awesome thing! This is not a cupcake we each decorate as we see fit.  We conform ourselves to it, the Mass does not conform to us! It is holy and sacred and if we really understood it, it is something that should be approached with fear and trembling - we are calling GOD to be present to us!
Sad, I have very mixed emotions about your post because I was raised never to criticize a priest but we have all seen the abuses that have occurred because of silence.  Satan has entered the temple it seems and people are just going along because of the title even though they see liturgical abuses or political maneuvering, broken vows etc.  The shepherds and sheep truly are being led to do things that made Christ shed blood. How would you handle that?
Pat, In the heat of the moment I think you missed an opportunity to minister to “Christ in the distressing disguise.”  With a reaction that strong there was something he needed to express.  It wasn’t personal to you or your wife. From the way you describe his celebration of the Mass, parishioners have gone along with his style without asking for fidelity.

Patrick, I think I missed the part where you criticized the priest.  Apparently many others here read a different article.

The new changes will be like old home week for me.  I never stopped using many of them after the council came up with the new Mass that Vatican Council I seems to belie. “For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter, that by His revelation they might make known new doctrine, but that by His assistance they might inviolsbly keep and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit delivered through the Apostles.” It’s a good thing they called it a pastoral council.until

I wonder if the priest of this story would be pleased to know that regardless what language the rest of the Maronite liturgy uses—Syriac, French, Arabic, English, or whatever—the Words of Institution are always chanted in Aramaic?

I agree Sad about your comments with tearing down priests.  Once again Matt I find you spend a lot of time letting us know how everyone else is not living up to the gospel.  Doesn’t that ever get old?  Consider not writing about how bad someone else is for a month and see what insight it gives you.

One reason why retranslations are needed:  In a living language (American English, e.g.), the meaning of words change with time. 
The Creed I learned in the 1940s said that Jesus “rose the third day, according to the Scriptures”.  Well, of course that IS what the gospels say.  The current translation is ” .. in fulfillment of the Scriptures”, is, I think, what those who developed the Nicene Creed wanted believers to affirm.
Consider other English words whose meaning has changed over time.
Again, when I was young, “gay” meant happy or cheerful.  And now?
The meaning of vocabulary in Latin no longer changes.
So new translations may be needed because our CURRENT language has had changes in the meanings of words or idioms, not because the original Latin or Greek has had changes..
TeaPot562

All the arguing bickering and complaining in the comments are not what Jesus Prayed for in John 17. We need to humbly carry our cross and follow the one true Church.

I agree that it is better not to share this kind of bad info about priests. And what if you don’t know it, but this priest is deeply depressed or on the verge of losing his faith? Maybe that’s why his attitude seems bad. And what if he reads the article and is deeply wounded by it, or by being basically publicly chastized by a lay person? What if he is more sincere than you know?

I think we have to be REALLY, EXCEPTIONALLY careful that we don’t participate in any way in the “culture of personal destruction” that is so common today - where we publicly tear down people for their faults and errors. Our priests get anough of that. And then when stories like this are posted, it seems to encourage uncharitable comments from some folks…

Every single priest is beloved by God, and He is saddened by their errors or sins, but His tender love for them is beyond our comprehension. He let me understand this at Mass one day when I was suffering anger towards priests for their insufficiencies.

I know your motives are sincere, so please don’t think I’m trying to now tear YOU down!!!! But this is my “fraternal suggestion.”

Sad wrote: “Furthermore, it looks like you’re trying to take credit for the priest having announced the new courses in the Sunday bulletin.”

I believe that these are two different priests. The second priest is young, and endorses the new changes. The first priest is older but less wise.

I think you should’ve had kept this situation to yourself and pray for this Priest, the people don’t need to hear any more ugly stuff about them,thanks. IMHO… Gina

I understand the frustration of the priest at the wedding.  There is likely nothing wrong with his faith.  Give the man a break.

Our “new” Mass is really just “old” pre-Vatican II wording coming back. Rome spent 15 years on “new” changes that are really just a blast from the past, at least for those of us old enough to remember pre-Vatican II.

They say this isn’t the last revision either.  So in another 15 or 30 years, there will be an even better (and newer) translation.

The Vatican is fiddling while Rome burns.  Why don’t our church leaders focus on matters of real importance?  Most of Europe condones same-sex relationships, even Catholic countries, yet our leaders are holed up in the Vatican, working on liturgical trivia.

The wedding presider is correct.  He has his priorities in order. I don’t blame him for lacking tact.  Lay people need a good shock, every once in a while, to wake us up.

sadly, whatever the opinion this priest had on the new translation, the way he treated a woman who asked a simple question, “father what is your opinion” was rude, and dismissive.
and the rudeness and dismissive attitude of SOME of the church elders, priests, and etc toward women especially, but toward almost anyone.. is what pours fuel on the fire of division and hostility to the church.

i am lucky enough to have priests who, even when stating opinions that are problematic, can do so POLITELY.  A priest is supposed to be a guide to the praish and the people.. this isnt always comfortable, but there is no call to be rude when someone asks a genuine question.

I’m with Father. Coming up with a strained translation from a dead language doesn’t help people understand better. It just confuses and annoys them. (Dead language - a language no one speaks as their first language - like Latin)

ALL priests ordained in certain years are “lost?”

And I thought the hippies were bad.

I blame the blended scotch.  One never hears of these arguments breaking out on Islay.  Of course if they did, we’d never be able to understand them anyway.

Wait, what? They speak Aramaic in Heaven?  Not Latin?

For me, I appreciate the effort to make the liturgies world wide more unified (part of that catholic definition). My opinion is that this is such an easy point to surrender in obedience to.  The grumbling, from the clergy of all possible grumblers, borders on shameful.

(Love me some Shubert!)

Correction. The mass was never radically changed by successive generations as it was by the hippie generation. It was watered down, simplified and had its most catholic elements deemphasized. Past generations treated the liturgy as something to be treasured and preserved, and hopefully we return to that mentality soon.

I sure hope we have different music like what was mentioned in your article, but I doubt that our “progressive” parish will pay any attention to the “new music” but just continue with the inane stuff we’ve been singing for years.

I think every diocese is different in the way they will “implement” these changes.  As for us, we already have pre-ordered the new Sunday Missals, but we still will be attending the Latin Mass at a neighboring parish at least once a month.  Our pastor sounds very much like the priest you encountered in his dislike of Latin.

It’s interesting that the generation that invented the idiocy “don’t trust anyone over thirty” is now sensitive about “generational wars” as they approach their dotage and poach their grandchildren to fund their retirement.

How wonderful that Latin is a dead language. Consequently, the meaning of words is fixed. As a 2008 convert from evangelical Protestantism where doctrines are ejected and changed willy-nilly and the interpretation of Scripture is ultimately governed by the doctrine of “perspicuity” (another way of saying “the final authority is the individual). I am thrilled that doctrines are spelled out in terms that do not change meaning from day to day (or century to century) as occurs in Protestantism. Thank God that we have the ability to remain anchored to the teaching of the apostles. Thank God for the stability of the Catholic Church and the guidance of the Magisterium. If only the American Bishops would consider the absurdity of the “Protestantization” of the New American Bible. “Hail favored one” indeed!!! Even the Protestant scholar F.F.Bruce recognizes that it should say, “Hail full of grace!”

Wesley L. Vincent, Ph.D.

I’m fine with improving the language at mass.  I don’t know what the effect will be when people start hearing the high theological terms instead of language that the people are more likely to understand.  Just because the meaning of the words in Latin are not going to change doesn’t mean that the meaning of the words in English are easily understood.  I know we’ve got cards with the changes, but everyone I show the changes to reacts with confusion and alienation.  The only people I encounter that speak positively about the New Translation are people giving talks to religious educators about how great the translation is.  That priest at the wedding did not state his case well at all from what you describe.

“The only people I encounter that speak positively about the New Translation are people giving talks to religious educators about how great the translation is.”  I haven’t given any talks lately, and I’m pretty psyched about the new translation.  I also have a higher opinion of people’s intelligence and common sense and trust it won’t take people long to figure out what “and by the Holy Spirit was the incarnate of the Virgin Mary” is getting at.

not “was the incarnate” but “was incarnate.”  The former would indeed be confusing.

Tim,
Just keep in mind that the “high theological” terms are being used precisely because the “easily understood” English in the out going translation can be interpreted in many different ways, not all of them fully compatible with what the Church actually teaches.  Indeed those theological terms, in English and in Latin were used to make sure certain concepts were properly understood by the faithful.  Take for example the replacement in the Creed of “One in being with the Father” with “consubstantial with the Father”.  Yes, one of the interpretations of the original translation is consistent with the new translation, but it could also mean other things. 
—
Yes, there will be some confusion with the new Translation of the Mass, but better confusion than people who are sure they understand but are wrong.

Bibbit-

You wrote “You’re in your early twenties and talk like you’ve been waiting as long as a guy like me who was born when the Mass was still in Latin.  You got some more growing up to do before you talk like that.”

I’m just saying that ever since I can remember, I’ve had a hard time noticing the beauty of mass.  The churches I went to and the way the liturgy was celebrated lacked the objective beauty that naturally flows from reverence and a grasp of what’s sacred.  I don’t have to be born in the 50’s to notice beauty in orthdoxy or of a properly celebrated mass.  Most of the kids I went to church with have left Catholicism.  This is speculation, but I think more would have stayed if they encountered the beauty and nobility that our faith should have.

Sometimes you don’t know what you’re missing, but that doesn’t mean your soul isn’t longing for it, Bibbit.

Chuck,

You wrote “Most of the kids I went to church with have left Catholicism.  This is speculation, but I think more would have stayed if they encountered the beauty and nobility that our faith should have.”

I was born in the early 1950s.  My generation is conspicuously missing from the pews.  We had encountered the “beauty and notibility” of both the faith and the Mass.  It didn’t matter.  They left anyway.

Bad article for the Register.  Reporter, yes, Register no.  Leave the priest alone. He sounds about as frustrated as the rest of us are. The greatest liturgical abuse I have seen in churches all over the country is not done by the priest - but by the laity.  The music director must think he/she is a priest, bishop or pope by the way they change everything fron the response in the Mystery of Faith to the Lamb of God to the Our Father to the garbage entrance, exit music from American Top 40 in the 60’s. I am sooooo over it.
Yes the priest was rude and wrong, but you sir are equally wrong to trash him publicly.  Until you have served Our Lord in that priest’s capacity, you cannot imagine the hell he has been through.  And I am giving him the benefit of the doubt since I was not there and do not personally know him.  But as sick as I am of liberal priests - and choir directors - it’s not Christ-like to blast it all over the internet.  Just re-subscribed to the Register…should I cancel???

YESSSSS!!! Win! I care!

I’m sure the newly married couple was thrilled to hear that they sat the poor priest at a table with a couple laying in wait to savage him at the first opportunity.  Nice guests.

And for all of you who throw a blanket of disparagement over all priests of a certain generation - shame on you!  Do you not know that there are wonderful priests, some who would agree with your positions, who you lump together in your prideful condemnation?  Do you think your arrows do not hurt them?  Do you think this is what the Gospel asks you to do?

If a priest is setting a bad example and saying something that is wrong then we have the duty to publicly rebuke him lest some more naive or ignorant Catholic be led astray. I have had to take a Monsignor to task for refusing to give my wife Holy Communion on the tongue as is the universal norm of the Church. It is our duty to then correct his errors. This is the catholic thing to do. We have a DUTY and Obligation to do this. Our loyalty is to the Catholic Church not some individual priest. If a priest is teaching error we must publicly refute him. All of this politeness and being nice about it is not in keeping with the Savior who made a whip and threw ot the money changers in the temple. All of you who keep saying “you shouldnt say bad things about priests etc etc…”| This is WRONG. We have a DUTy to combat error wherever it is found.

@Sam - then I assume you welcome a PUBLIC thrashing when your priest or boss sees you doing something incorrectly.  Right????

Rather self-important

Those who claim that this generation of young Catholics is so conservative are dreaming.  There has always been on the fringe of our Church a group of youngsters who love the pomp and circumstance and require strict rules. And the data shows that group has not grown at all…..AS THE FRINGE GROUP WHO WANT THE LATIN MASS HAS NOT GROWN….the Vatican’s own data shows it.  And this supposed swelling of orthodox young priests?  In our Diocese over the last 3 years I’ve seen 3 of these young priests leave the priesthood leave within their 1st or 2nd assignment - left in sexual scandal - not because the Church wasn’t orthodox enough for them.

We are supposed to love God with our minds and not leave our brains at the church door.  Why can’t a priest speak up with what he’s thinking and lay people also speak freely with what they think?  It’s not like we’re changing doctrine or dogma.

If Rome is so beyond approach, then why did St. Paul question St. Peter in Acts of the Apostles, a move that resulted in the Council of Jerusalem?  Further, how about the pope known as the Medici Pope?

I just heard about him and those bishops and cardinals of his day, that bought their positions.  Was no one to have questioned them?

The hoopla given to the “new” old pre=Vatican II Mass makes me think those in church authority now believe Vatican II was a big mistake, and now’s their time to correct it.

I think the priest was right to speak up, and perhaps he even knew whom it was he was speaking, so his thoughts can make it to the press.  At least I hope so.  Light needs to shine upon all aspects of our church, and the truth will rise to the top and be seen for what it is.  It saddens me to see that these “new” old changes are causing division.  The Holy Spirit unifies.  He does not divide believers in Christ.  The “new” old Mass is causing division.

@ Joseph - There is a big difference between doing something incorrectly and refusing to follow what the Church has said. That is what I am saying you must stand up and correct. St. Paul rebuked St Peter to the face. I am with the Church and so if I hear a priest or bishop speak or act against it then yes I will correct them as is my DUTY as a Catholic.  If you call that self-important then yes, Im self-important. At least my conscience wont be bothering me. Now the correction can be public or private depending on how public the error was. If it was public then is needs to be public. For example, there is an old old story of a bishop in a cathedral preaching that Mary was not the Mother of God. Some layman in the pews jumped up and shouted “that is heresy!” This layman did the right thing. If he had remained silent then perhaps some might have been lead into heresy because after all “the bishop said…” This is every Catholic’s duty. We cannot allow anyone to be lead astray because we said nothing.

@ Joseph
You said “I assume you welcome a PUBLIC thrashing when your priest or boss sees you doing something incorrectly.  Right????”

This isn’t about someone “doing something incorrectly.”  That could include an honest mistake (NOT what we are talking about here.)

Your sentence should read “I assume you welcome a PUBLIC thrashing when your boss sees you on a public rant about how stupid/annoying/wrong he (she) is.”

Perhaps your Boss would think that was OK. 

I know mine would not.

Yeah great, now let’s continue to bash priests, men that dedicated their lives to God, I always love it when people that are not in my profession sharpshoot me. Maybe he was having a bad day, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I guess you and all your peeps that started the “let’s bash a Priest” tred forgot Matt 7 Judge not, that you may not be judged. 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.  I bet there is a priest only blog where Priests talk about incidents in public where “civilians” express how much “they care”. I can read it now; there was is guy to came to communion and took Presious Blood to his seat, or the time when father was called at midnight to Annoint the Sick because a parishioner was dying, or how about the millions of times people walknout after communion. St Josemaria said once “If you have holy shamelessness, you won’t be worried by the thought of ‘what will people say?’ or ‘what can they have said?”

This priest you encountered is what turns many people off from the church.  He sounded like a miserable person and not a good example of Christ. 

I feel bad for his congregation.  He doesn’t sound to be very approachable…

Come gather round catholics
There’s new news from Rome
Admit that the kumbaya masses are done.
Accept that soon we’ll be all coming home.
For the mass it is a-changin’

:)

God bless all our priests.  I very dear priest friend of mine (who is in the age group of the priests you speak of) aknowledges that some in his generation of priests can be problematic.  But we must always pray for our priests, especially the ones who are not the best.  Keep in mind that they answered the call to priesthood but are suffering from the abysmal seminary formation that marked the years surrounding Vatican II. They are the priests they were trained to be in many cases. They think it is okay to be the way they are. But God is faithful and the Church is now undergoing the reform of the reform.  And as my priest friend says, his generation is getting older, retiring, and dying off.  Just hang in there and support all our priests with love and prayers.  God will continue to provide.  Pray that our new priests are holy and loving pastors.

BTW, this article on this priest is perfectly okay IMHO.  It was done in charity while performing the service of reminding the faithful that they will encounter these attitudes, even in our clergy.  There is nothing wrong with educating the faithful.  And who knows, it may start conversations amoung the clergy that will result in their being better pastors in implementing the reform of the poor English translation that came out of the reforms of Vatican II.  Vatican II was wonderful but its implementation was not always correct nor good.  This reform is needed and must be accepted, even by the resistent priests.

Lost in translation? By playing stupid, you seem to try to invalidate his point. The point being ‘why the need to adhere to Latin in the sense of being authentic?’ It is a good intention, but ultimately misguided and disingenuous. Hope that was plain enough for you.

@Pat Archbold - “I think this is clear since everyone else seemed to get it.” and “I would use your line of thinking against you but for… Well, you know.”

Nice examples of Christian charity.  And it makes perfect sense for you to be insulting the readers at the same time your employer is soliciting for financial support.

Going back to the old is the only way to go. Look where the new got us, millions of babies maimed every day. Abortion wouldn’t be legal if Mass would have been kept holy and reserved for those who truly understand.  Mass needs to be protected from those not really worthy but who show up anyway. They come late, leave early and have no right being there anyway. Don’t want to even imagine the hate that’s in their hearts. Too bad if they can’t understand and if they don’t appreciate the exquisite liturgy, art, vestments and everything that makes Mass holy. Glad many of them will be turned away. They’re protestants anyway and corrupting Catholicism.

@Catherine Panzica, Post hoc ergo propter hoc?  While there might well be a link between the forces that caused so many corruptions to the Ordinary Form and those that promote abortion and other evils in our society, there really is no way to demonstrate a causal link showing that instituting the Ordinary Form is in any way responsible for abortion. 
—
Further I would point out, that Mass is a mystery, none of us truly understand it, and none of us are worthy of God’s great gift. 
—
I am also disturbed by your lack of charity.  Yes, it annoys me when people leave Mass early but we also don’t know their situation.  It is possible that because of some emergency or other obligation (perhaps they are a health care professional who has to work on the weekend) the Mass they leave early is the only Mass they can make, and they can’t stay for the whole Mass.  As for showing up late, some people, no matter how devout and orthodox, simply have a hard time being on time.
—
Finally I would point out that while the liturgy is holy (since the Mass is the same thing as the liturgy here), the art and the vestments are not in and of themselves holy.  They are rather our attempt to express our love and reverence for God and the Mass.

I think a more accurate translation is a a great thing, but I don’t like change- so I’m human. What I think is at issue here is actually the idea that making the Mass translation more accurate will change hearts. I think that might be why this priest is discouraged. For their generation alot of nastiness has been exchanged over the watering down of the Mass and the primary battle ground seems to me to have been the use of the Extraordinary form. (I love the EF, I think it is a superior artistic and spiritual expression and a higher offering.) But going to the Mass in Latin does not necessarily make me a holier Catholic, or does it? This is the thing. We need hearts to be converted and God can use a variety of means to accomplish this. I think He prefers a more accurate text in the Mass, but I think He would be pleased to know also that we understand that we will have to change our lives to conform more to the words we pray in order to really bring about the necessary changes in the Mass, and masses.

I’ve experienced rebellious and disrespectful “pastors” to the point where I now travel approximately 5 times the distance, joining a CATHOLIC parish which teaches CATHOLIC virtues including obedience, humility and charity.  Beware of parishes that advertise themselves by the misuse of the terms “Spirit of VaticanII”, “welcoming” and “ecumenical”.  I worry about youngsters who are being “catechised” in “worship spaces” where the alters have been stripped, the Tabernacle is missing or hidden and where kneeling is seen as an act of rebellion!

but most priests are holy men who have faults they are working on like the rest of us, and we ought to support them instead of tearing them down.

With all due respect, it is not a “fault” when a priest intentionally refuses to follow the liturgical directives of the Church.

I was not a novice to Catholicism, coming from a family of whom half are Catholics, but when I formally converted in 1997 I was dismayed at the many abberrations I would encounter at Mass.  It is not acceptable when the celebrant chooses to rearrange the texts to suit his own purposes, and yes, sad to say, that was very prevalent between the 60’s and 80’s.

The “new” translations are not really new at all but a restoration of texts that have been prayed for centuries and among cultures outside of America.  Using the accurate rendition of the Latin those of Spanish, Italian, German and other nationalities have always responded “and with your spirit.”

Lex orandi, lex credendi is not just a matter of “taste” but shapes our lives as Catholics.

Exactly, they have no understanding or right to the real Mass. Nerve and ignorance is what the new katolics have. They ruined everything and Mass was the first and worst of it.  When something’s holy it’s best being a mystery. Now because Mass was dummed down abortion and birth control, the two greatest evils in our time, are rampant. You don’t want to imagine the # of fake katolics receiving Holy Communion only to later that night be using birth control. Wait till they see the hell that awaits them.

Every word and perfect direction of the real holy Mass needs to be followed EXACTLY. There is 0.0% deviation allowed. AND if it happens, I’ll be right there recording it and turning the fake wanna be priest in. Our old liturgy will save the Church whether these fakers like it or not.

Last night, I was at a city meeting, and met a kind elderly man from the same community where I grew up in the Pre-Vatican II days.  He fondly remembered the elderly priest that was one of our first pastors, as did I.  He told me the two of them started a Knights of Columbus group for the parish, years ago.  Our first pastor was great - friendly, helpful, not rigid, and a man that was trustworthy.  You knew he worshipped God.

But his face changed, when he began to talk about the second long-time pastor of our parish, saying, “He ruined my family.”  Come to find out the second pastor, a staunch supporter of the Traditional Mass, and a man that dragged his feet in bringing any Vatican II changes to our parish, molested his son in the 1960’s.  At that time, the pastor was in his 60’s.

That pastor is also responsible for another boy having committed suicide, and for having molested a boy I know.  No charges were ever filed against this now long deceased priest.  He only left a trail of destruction that continues until today.  Not one person has a good memory of him.

But at least he, like many of the people on this blog, was a strong defender of the Tridentine Mass, and of everything traditonal.  He showed reverence for Mass but he abused at least 3 little boys.  Seems to me his priorities were out of kilter.

My support is still for the courageous priest that spoke out about how he feels regarding the newest wave of changes.  I’ll bet his priorities are in order, and he’d have no trouble speaking up, should he know anyone’s honor was compromised, by anyone.  Priests with integrity and courage must be supported.  I’m respecting the priest from this article, more and more.  He sounds like our first pastor, the one everyone liked.

This is NOT about tradition vs “spirit of Vatican II”.  It’s about openly rebellious and sometimes disobedient Priests who are attempting to spred dissensition among the faithful.  This is about obedience and faithfullness.  Our lord gave the Keys and authority to Peter and the Apostles and their successors.  Priests are not in the direct Apostolic line but too many of them act as if they are their on local pope in the manner of some protestant ministers.  Scripture paints a picture of millstone collars and deep water for those who hurt “these little ones”.  And for Terah to play the “abuse” card, using a story about one bad priest who happened to be a “traditionalist” is unreasonable and illogical,just as if I tried to use any one of the “spirit of vatican II” priests who were abusers to prove my point.  Either argument is an abuse of logic.

Terah James,
No offense, but whether one, or a hundred or a thousand priests who support the Extraordinary Form also molests children is irrelevant to this whole question.  As horrible as molesting a child is, I suspect that there is little or no evidence that supporting the extraordinary form makes one more likely to molest a child.  It seems to be simply a way of distracting the conversation from its proper topic.
—
Also reading some of your other posts earlier, I think your understanding of the new Translation is deeply flawed.  This in no way, shape or form is a return to the “Pre-Vatican II mass”.  In fact, the wording of the ordinary form of the Latin rite remains exactly the same; it is the English translation of those words that has changed.  Now generally, I am not one who feels that it was a mistake for the Church to move towards the vernacular, but, if one really is upset at the new Translation, then the obvious solution is to find a parish where they use the ordinary form in Latin (They do exist).

Ed Kanto

Agreed.  How juvenile.

*sigh*  The entire dialogue seemed tacky to me.  Yes, Father did not respond politely to the author’s wife, and I do think the author was a gentleman to support his wife by affirming her enthusiasm for the topic… but given that Father openly displayed a disinterest for discussing the new translation, I see no reason for the author to have “pushed it” as a conversation topic. Isn’t it just basic courtesy to move on to a new topic if the other party seems bored, uncomfortable, or unknowledgeable about what is offered for discussion?  (We are talking about a group of adults visiting over drinks at a wedding reception, afterall—typically a venue for relaxed and enjoyable conversation.)  In any event, as the course of the conversation shows, no benefits accrued from pressing on in spite of Father’s disinterest.  And taking the further step of posting it on a blog in “he-said-she-said” fashion just makes the author appear to have an unseemly and adolescent taste for verbal competition.  I wish his wife had stepped in and moved the conversation on to more mutually-agreeable ground for all.

““Ummm.  Father, the ...”,  “Father…..,” “Father..,”

SHEE-EEEEEESH!

I agree you with your liturgical point, but um, do you realize how amazingly self-righteous you sound? Preaching to the choir like this little vignette does accomplishes nothing but making us traditional Catholics look like blowhards. Of course, it probably takes on a more obnoxious tone in print, which alsop makes me wonder why on earth you let it get this far. Oh, and just maybe the priest had “his drink on too.

Catherine Panzica, you are one nasty piece of work.  No one is going to see love in you and want to know from whence it comes.  No one is going to become Catholic because of you!