“... we will ensure their beliefs reflect this aministration’s vision ... ” Sounds suitably tyrannical.

love this article. love the sentiment….its all good, you know, unless it contadicts what i am saying…

Finding a real Christian pastor for the Benediction may be tough, according to thier standards.  One could only hope.  Guess it dwpends on who exactly they want to include.  Obama seemed to have a good time blessing and pardoning turkeys on Thanksgiving Day.  It wouldnt surprise me if he gave his own benediction.

thought I saw he was replaced with a civil rights advocate who’s not a minister of anything.

Thank you.  You’ve said what I hear so many people saying.

Posted by Heather on Friday, Jan 11, 2013 10:45 AM (EDT):Finding a real Christian pastor for the Benediction may be tough, according to thier standards.  One could only hope.  Guess it dwpends on who exactly they want to include.  Obama seemed to have a good time blessing and pardoning turkeys on Thanksgiving Day.  It wouldnt surprise me if he gave his own benediction.”
**********************************
Sort of like Napolean crowning himself-there’s no higher authority.

Sorry, make that “Napoleon”. Obviously, there’s a higher spelling authority.
:)

Maybe Obama should call on a Voodoo priestess:  very “inclusive”, and a good deal less insulting than a make-believe Christian.

In the last presidential election Mr. Obama received well over 50 percent of the Catholic vote.  Mr. Obama’s policies on abortion and his health care mandates are anti catholic.  So his idea of inclusion should be no surprise.  That old saying of you get what you pay for fit’s very well here.  Way to go church.

“While Christians have been silent and accommodating for years…” What america do you live in?

As an american and an atheist, I’m offended one brand of superstition is raised at all above the others.

Obama being sworn in on 2 bibles (yea, no kidding), it isn’t the change I was hoping for.

Don’t worry, Rover Serton, the President reveres and respects those 2 Bibles about as much as you do. It’s all for show to keep a huge segment of the population believing that he has religious faith.
“Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
www.MerryCatholic.com

Oh, and by the way, Rover, the “one brand of superstition” that reigns supreme in modern America is the fairy tale that swirling chemicals accidentally formed into a living, self-replicating organism; and then over time, without a shred of outside guidance, mutated into all the diverse and extremely complex life forms on earth. Sure, something a zillion times more intricate than software code just wrote itself. By accident. Without any intelligence. Without any design. Sure. Keep telling yourself that.
“Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
www.MerryCatholic.com

Each time I have heard of this report I still couldn’t get a clear message of “who” made the first step to dissolve the agreement to perform the Benediction.  Nevertheless, I think it was wise for Pastor to back down because for sure the Obama administration would find something to negate the words this man of the collar would say on that day. If I may ask, who do we serve first: God or man? Jesus says if we are assumed of Him, in front of others, He will be ashamed of us, in front of God.  Are we, believers of Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures, ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Are we to be afraid as those who are of the flesh and heathens?  Know, your enemy maybe within your own house.  Could it be your own conscience?  It is time to grow up in the Word of God and the ammonition that the Holy Spirit gives us.  We can’t force the world to agree with the Word of God, yet, we are mandated to walk the way of Godly righteousness and speak the truth to our neighbor. If they receive the truth, God gets all the glory.  If they reject the truth, well, all is in Gods hands anyway; then, just say next.  We all must be mature in this walk at this time of our lives and realize that there are many false prophets, false teachers who claim authority in the name of Jesus Christ; yet, their fruits are of the Prince of the Air, Satan.  Why should this be a surprise to anyone.  Nevertheless, I believe one must have the courage of David, the peace of Jesus Christ, and the strength of Paul to walk these days in this world of deception to the left and to the right of us.  Go boldly and speak the truth and let the dice fall as they may, as the expression goes.  And know you cannot please everyone.  And if a door was opened and then closed, just say, Thank you God and say next….for the evil one knows his time is short and, to prevent oil, that is Holy Ghost oil, fed to the fire of truth, evil will cut the apron strings to those who will not bend to the winds of deception and persuasion to the worlds thinking.  Gods Word is our stance. If God said it that is all that manners; thus, the battle between whomever disputes the believers verbage is between them and God and not the messenger.  I will say bravo to the pastor for attempts to walk thru a door to the White House.  It is by faith we show God our willingness to be bold and courageous, as Paul and Peter were; Then God can use us for the next assisgnment in this world that is becoming more and more upside down.  Anyone want a piece of upside down pineapple cake?  Let’s all sit back and watch the players move and perform to the persuasive powers of the prince of the air.  Quite interesting to sit back and watch as the Big Picture Show of life corresponds with the prophesy of the Bible….Anyone trully ready for the return of Jesus Christ…Get Ready, Get Ready, Can you hear the sound of the trumpet…..Smile. God loves us and if God is on our side, who, who can be against us. Amen? Amen.

obama is turning the white house into the fag house.

Looks like the trolls have discovered this blog…

Some lovely doublespeak there.  As usual, the irony completely escapes them.  Diversity in everything, except thought.

Excellent comment. I, too, hope that the HHS mandate is defanged. But at the end of the day, at the end of all legal appeal, I pray the church is willing to go to the mat and commit civil disobedience to fight the HHS mandate.

Really, it’s about doing Christian good. . . and about our essential American rights.

Our current situation in this country is reminiscent of the Early Church when defending the teachings of the Church was a crime.  I pray that we are strong enough to defend her and now crumble to any political regime.

Why is a Christain pastor necessary at at a presidential inaugaration?  The US is a nation of many diverse faith traditions (non-Christian and Christian). The US in not a Christian nation.  Too many Christians think they are entitled to special privileges, that they are entitled to deny other American equal rights, that they are not subject ot hte laws of our nation.  Jesus was a not a Christian and given how many christains conduct themselves, he probably would never want tobe a “Christian”.

The quote of Rev. Giglio’s comments, which appeared in the 01/11/2013, L.A. Times is clearly stating that the homosexual orientation is a sin, as well as the act. 

Can anyone verify the actual quote?

Howard on Friday, Jan 11, 2013 12:36 PM

Howard, they’ll be hard-pressed to find a Voodooienne who agrees with the White House on these issues, better off going Episcopalian.

Mr. Archbold writes: “I give huzzahs to the Inaugural staff who seemingly pushed Rev. Giglio out the door.” My question to Mr. Archbold is this: Did not not read the pastor’s statement as to why he withdrew from the ceremony? He said he chose to withdraw because he did not want a 15-year-old homily to bring distrctions to what he and Presidet Obama have in common: To do everything possible to end all forms of slavery in the country, in the world. By suggesting the Inaugural staff seemingly pushed the pastor out the door, you are suggesting, implying that Pastor Giglio is not being honest. Shame on you, and shame on the NCR for publishing this piece that questions Pastor Giglio’s honesty.

“While Christians have been silent and accommodating for years, it seems that in this country where everything is allowed, one of the only remaining sins is acting as a Christian in public.”

This is what worries me. Speaking out for what’s right could cost you your livelihood - especially in certain professions. One of the goals of the left is to keep us on the defensive until we completely shut up.

I was a liberal for all my adult life until about three years ago. In that time, I never *once* felt uncomfortable sharing my opinion in the public sphere. And I was vocal. So much for the “intolerant” religious folks. They let me prattle on with whatever nonsense I believed. Since then, however, I’ve dealt with so much backlash from my lefty friends that I really have to steel myself to speak unpopular truths. There are times when I just don’t have the energy. May God give us all the energy.

Kudos, Rev. Giglio!!  Shout it from the Mountain Tops!!!

Yes, the obama administration is against human traffiking, unless Planned Parenthood is involved and getting abortion money from the girls being traffiked.

The Obama inaugural committee will have no problem lining up a backup to Pastor Giglio consistent with Obama’s worldview if they go Episcopal.

A God Who does not desire that we overcome our disordered inclinations, including our disordered sexual inclinations, would not be The God of Salvation, The God of Love.

Obama will find his own Cranmer. The party machine, like Cromwell, will impose their tyranny upon the parent-less, sex-addicted masses.

Even Catholics screw up the issue.  IMHO. Homosexual orientation is not a sin, nor is temptation a sin for a heterosexual. But homosexual orientation IS more problematic than hetero since the temptation is for a behaior that is NEVER OK, whereas legit hetero sex is OK in marriage. The double back flip to assure homosexuals that their orientation is not a sin quickly turns disingenuous if it is not also immediately maintained that IS a cross for which there is no comparable hetero one.

Matthew, loved the satire.

Well, Obama is consistent in one respect.  Whenever he seeks out some kind of political advantage he’ll throw any pastor under a bus.  Even the Most Reverend (No!, No!, No! Not God bless America, God D_ _ _ _ America!) Wright had a wide set of tire tracks on his back.  Not that it didn’t take long for him to get back into presidential graces after the election mind you.  Liberal tolerance for diversity and inclusion just warms the heart doesn’t it?  Also, the President and his staff’s memory did seem to fail them though when it came to Barack’s recollection of certain sermons in regard to the above.

Unless your a premier Catholic College offering him accolades, like a Georgetown or Notre Dame you don’t stand a chance with the admirable president.  Even Catholic bishops can feel the wrath of the messianic Obama.  Then again, if your a certain Sister who heads the CHA you get to go to bill signing ceremonies, and win door prizes, like a pen used by the President in signing the ACPPA.  The cost, sell your Church to HHS.

There are many types and degrees of disordered inclinations, including disordered sexual inclinations, some more difficult to overcome than others. This does not change the fact that with the proper care and guiidence we can learn to overcome our disordered inclinations and learn how to develop healthy and Holy relationships and friendships that are grounded in authentic Love and thus respect the inherent personal and relational Dignity of the human person, created in The Image and Likeness of God, to reflect Love.

If tolerance for diversity and inclusion creates a big tent mentality where decent people can disagree about what is decent, then at the end of the Day, who needs our Savior, to begin with?

Nancy,

God’s grace, love,etc have been eternally available to everyone.  So yes, you are correct—the death of Jesus as necessary to “save” or “redeem” is a myth.

God createed a dynamic, ever changing world.  We human beings are not exempt from that.  Thankfully, our societies evovle.  We work for what in Judaism is called, tikkun olam, the healing of the world.  In the US we have abolished slavery, the rights of women and of minorities have been reocognized and we work to protect and advance those rights.  We work to to take of the vulnerable and those in need among us.  We work in the workld to prevent genocide, etc.  All those postions have the result of the evolution of thoughts about “what is decent”, how we should treat each other (all of us are made in the image of God). All of these things have happened,often not because of Christianity, but sometinmes in spite of it.  Mnay Christains were savleholders, supported slavery.  Many Christains opposed racial integration.  Many Christains supported Hitler’s shoah, etc, etc.  History will show the same thing to be true of same sex marriage.  When same sex marriage becomes law in the US, history will show it to be a good thing that happened in spite of Christian/RC opposition/bigotry,

Same sex marriage is about the laws of nations and not about RC or Christain theology.  The theology of the RCC or of Christainity should not be the controlling factor in this area.  The US, the world is a diverse palce—where not everyone is Christian or RC.

Lisa, with all due respect, The Death of Jesus The Christ is not a myth, nor is the fact that we have eyewitness testimony that He Is Risen. The Truth of Love Was In The Beginning, Is Now, and Forever Will Be…

No Greater Love Is there than this, that He Who Was without sin, suffered and died for our Salvation.
If you are not worshipping The True God, The God Who desires that through His Grace and Mercy, we may overcome our disordered inclinations, including our disordered sexual inclinations, and sin no more, you are not, even if you profess to be Christian, worshipping The God of Salvation, the ordered, complementary Communion Of Perfect Love that Is The Blessed Trinity, God, with the capital G.

Marriage exists for the Good of the husband, the Good of the wife, and thus the Good of the new family that is created when a man and woman are united as husband and wife as God intended. Our call to Holiness is a call to authentic Love.

Lisa Kaiser ,
Hello!
If recent attempts to redefine marriage are successful in the US, it will also be in spite of Orthodox Jewish opposition.Not to mention the Mormons, Muslims, etc.In France recently, thousands of people of all faiths (& no faith) showed up to support traditional marriage.
Very true that the world’s a diverse place.
I still detect a bit of a chip on the shoulder in your comments towards Christians. Jews owned slaves & participated in the slave trade as well as Christians.No one who lived here in colonial times -except perhaps the Indians, failed to profit in some way from the slave trade.I used to live in Georgia where many African Americans have last names like Cohen, Myers,Benjamin,Abraham,etc- names inherited from a slave-ancestor’s owner.
Slavery & discrimination are just a part of the human condition. We all participate in some way.It’s an equal opportunity defect.
God bless!

Nancy,

The “eyewitness reports” were written long after the supposed event by people who were not there and who did not know the supposed “eyewitnesses”.  Also, the “eyewitness reports” occur only in the NT.  No other independent source of the “ressurrection” of a dead human being.  Both Hebrew and Christain scripture contain a lot of stories that we know did not literally happen.  Obvioulsy, we all beleive what we want to beleive.  But it is belief based on faith, not empirical evidence.  So, I still go with the idea that the “resurrection’ is a myth.  There is absolutely no proof that Jesus was God, messiah or rose from the dead.

Kathllen,

There is no chip on my shoulder.  My point is that societies evolve. And that even Christian (and other fiath tradition beliefs) belief has evolved.  Just becasue currently the RCC is opposed to marriage equality and to the equality of American citizens re marriage, does not mean that belief will reamin fixed over time.  Particularly when it is shown that recognizing the right of gay people to marry will not harm marriage, children or cause the end of civilization as we know it.  History shows that beliefs evolve—that is my point.

Kathleen,

Also, please know that Orthodox Jews do not speak for all Jews.  Orthodox Judaism is merely one movement within Judaism. Orthodox Jews support s lot of thing that the other movements within Judaism do not support.  The Reform, Conservative, Renewal and Reconstruction movements within Judaims all support marriage equality and equality of all Americans re marriage.

Lisa,
Thanks for your comments & I do understand that Orthodox Jews vary from other Jews in their beliefs regarding marriage.Just as Catholics,Orthodox,Amish,& other Christians vary from less orthodox Christian denominations.
Redefining marriage is the issue in many minds, not the concept of equality, per say.
God bless!

Kathleen,

Yes, it seems that discussion around this issue for the RCC and other faith traditions center around “redefining” marriage, rather than equality.  Certainly the early model of marriage in the Bible was polygamy. So in that regard, marriage has already been “redefined” in the West. Islam still permits polygamy. The Mormons, while not practicing polygamy, have never said that their prophet was in error about polygamy.  So this idea “redefining marriage is a faith-based idea.  So it should not govern how the USA works out this issue.  And this IS an issue of equality.  There is no reason why gay Americans should be denied their 14th Amendment rights re marriage. The issue here is a legal issue, not the theology of some faith traditions.

Lisa,
The original marriage model was monogamy-if you use scripture as a reference.Even in Muslim, Mormon or Old Testament polygamy,the spouses are of opposite genders.
There can be no real marriage if you change the basic ingredients.It’s more natural law than denominational.

Kathleen,

Hebrew scripture is clear—Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, et al all had more than one wife. And according to the Book of Deuteronomy, God commanded thatthe kings of Israel were supposed to be limited to 16 wives (something Solomon obvioulsy ignored). So marriage ahs changed over the millenia and there is no reason why it cannot change again.  God created a dynamic universe, not a static one.  What does not cahnge, goes extinct, dies out, ceases to exist (that is the ultimate law of nature).

“Real marriage” is defined by the participants in the relationship.  The legal definition of marriage can and is subject to change (there are states where one can marry one’s first cousin and states where that is not permissible).  I live in state where one can marry one’s first cousing.  Yuk, etc. And no, that is not Biblical either and “and not great But in some places, it is allowed.

Recognizing the legal right of gay people to marry will not change anything, will not do any harm to anyone or anything.  The RCC is foond of just making the balnk assertion that same- sex marriage will somehow be a negative.  And it just that, a balnk assertion.  Neither the RCC nor anyone else can articulate any negative effects of same-sex amarriage—because there are none to articulate.  The RCC is making these unsupportable statements out of fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

Lisa,
The original model of marriage,as we understand it, was one man to one woman in Genesis.I understand that polygamy followed afterwards & still continues in some cultures today.
I have no trouble with first cousin marriages, they’re an old tradition where I live.Truthfully,most of us wouldn’t be here without some ancestor cousins having married.Marriage between close relations is discouraged/not allowed in both Catholic & Jewish faiths but historically, exceptions have been made in both traditions.
You cite bigotry, but again it’s more nature & natural law that Catholics, Orthodox Jews, Muslims, etc defend.If you believe biology plays no part in the nature of marriage & that it’s simply a legal contract between adults of any gender, I understand, but when the necessary components of marriage are removed, it’s no longer the same substance.We are in essence talking about 2 different things.
And regarding the subject of this blog, the pastor in question is not Catholic.

God bless!

Kathleen,

Re the role of biology in marriage:  I don’t think it is or should be the controlling criterion.  Ther are many marriages where children are not part of the marriage—older couples, infertile couples, marriages where one partner (or both is physically disabled. etc.  No one talks about denying marriage to such couples or that such couples do not “have the substances” of a marriage.

Some straight married people adopt children.  As can gay couples in many places. No one is talking about denying marriage to straight couples where adoption may be their only option for having children.  No one says such stright people do not have the “same substance” of a marriage.

Also, many gay people have biological children—happnes in a number of ways and circumstances.

Marriage is not just about children or about “straight” sex.  Its about couples who love each other, who want enter into a life together (with the all the accompanying rights and responsibilities), who are want to make a commitment to each other. 

As for the sex:  straight people engage in the same sorts of sexual behaviors as do gay people.  And no one is talking about denying marriage to straight people based on how sexual love is expressed.

The oppostion to same-sex marriage is irrational, illogical, based on ignorance, fear, bigotry.  Based on on oudated prejudices, based on taking certain Biblical quotations out of context, trying to wrongly apply ancient ideas/norms/fears to the 21st century.  The RCC and other groups are fond of making blank assertions—assertions that have no basis in fact, science, logic, or even morality.

Kathleen,

Marriage of first cousin is horrid—it is incest because of the close genetic ties and if the cousins have a close personal relationships growing uu, its even more like incest.  You support incest over same-sex marriage???  Yuck!!!

Lisa,
Hello, again!
Marriage between cousins may be unwise genetically, but it’s not generally considered incest. People didn’t used to have the means to travel widely & had a limited selection of marriage partners. Cousin marriages were very common, even between Jews, here in colonial America.In exceptional situations, an uncle was allowed to marry a neice, but an aunt was prohibited from marrying a nephew.I guess if a people were persecuted with genocide in mind, survival takes precedence over genetic issues down the road.
We’re looking at what constitutes marriage through very different filters.We both use the same word but it means very different things, I think.
God bless.

PS: I can’t copy & paste the link here, but there’s an article in “First Things” quoting Riccardo Di Segni, chief rabbi of Rome that’s worthwhile reading.

Kathleen,

What is the name of the article in First Things?  I looked at theri page, but there a lot of articles on marriage, children, etc?  Also,is the article free?  Some articles cannot be viewed w/o a subwcription.

And just a note, Chief rabbi of Rome means that Rabbi Di s]Segni is an Orthodox Jew.  He speaks only for the Orthodox Jews of Rome.  He does not speak for all Jews, and he does not even speak for all Orthodox Jews.

Judaism is not like RCism.  Judaism is decentralized.  There is no “clerical hierarchy” in Judaism.  A rabbi is a rabbi is a rabbi.

Kathleen,

I found the First Things article with a reprint of 2007 comments by Rabbi Di Segni re same-sex marriage.  First, the article wants to make more of Di Segni than he is.  Being “chief rabbi” is not for Jews what being a bishop is for RCs.  Di Segni’s opinion is Di Segni’s opinion.  His opinion is one rabbi’s opinion.  His opnion is not “authoritative in sense.  Jews read his words and agree or disagree.  Unlike RC bishops who claim to be the sole authorities of RC teaching and who think they can threaten RCs with eternal damnation if some free-thinking RC dares disgree! 

In Judaism one version of the morning blessing thanks God for making us Jews—for giving us the privilege of a faith tradition that “does not require the abdication of the mind”.  In other words, we Jews are free to consider all the opinions, read, learn, consider and think for ourselves.  Rabbis express opinions, teach us about our tradition, but that’s it. As rabbi, scholar, founder of the reeconsturctionist movement, Mordecia Kaplan, once said of Judaism, “Tradition has a vote, but not a veto.”  In other words, when making a decision about belief, practice, etc there is much to be considered in Jewish tradition, it should be considered, but after thoughtful consideration, one is free to do as one’s conscience dictates.

And agin, rabbi Di Segni is an Orthodox rabbi—a tradition that is not all that favorable toward equality of any kind.  And really, Jews see his opinion as his opnion.  One of many to be considered.

Lisa,
I understand the diversity of thought among Jews & appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on it, but would it be possible to do that without at the same time disparaging Catholics?
Respect enables conversation.

Kathleen,

My comments only reflect what the RC bishops have said about themselves and other commets the RC bishops have made (particularly re this past presidential election).  So I am talking about facts.  The RC bishops do see themselives as and have said that they are the true authority re RC teaching.  Comments from a number of bishops during the election indicated that if RCs voted a certain way they would be endangering their immortal souls.

I am not “disparging” Catholcis.  My comments accurately reflect the comemnts and conduct of RC bishops.  All such comments and conduct have been and are widely reported in the RC press and in the secular media.  Your complaint should be with your bishops and not with me.

Lisa,
I think you’ve misunderstood the bishops & the voting issue a bit.And again,comment boxes are great, but can lead to a skewed or shallow understanding of Catholic teaching. There are better resources out there-apologists on this site & at “Catholic Answers”, among others- who could give you a deeper & balanced explanation of how it all works.
God bless.

Kathleen,

I do understand how it works.  I read widely in the RC press and in the secular press about the RCC.  A number of American bishops were very adamant this past election cycle re voting, damnation, etc.  Perhaps your bishops was not one of them or perhaps you missed the coverage in the RC and secular press about this.  The bishops manage to barely skirt going over line inton endangering the RCC’s non-profit status.  But they come pretty close.  They give the GOP a free pass on war, the death penalty, poverty, economic injustice, immigration and harp on only two issues: abortion and same-sex marriage.  Roe v. Wade is now 40 yrs old, only the US Supreme Court can change it, and the RCC itself could be doing a lot more re helping women uderstand that adoption is a great choice and the RCC could cease its irrational, illogical oppostion to artificial contraception.  As for same-sex marriage:  the bishops are on the wrong side of God, love, morality and history on that one.  Its a losing battle, ye they insist on spending the money lay people give them on this losing battle.  It was pretty clear this past election, that American bishops have become a a motyhpiece ofr the extrme right-wing of the GOP.  They have strayed from God into partisan politics.  And it just further erodes their credibility.

Lisa,
Many political conservatives,including some Catholics, think of the US bishops as a left wing,pro-illegal immigrant, anti-American,subversive group.Thank you for demonstrating the opposite view.Readers can see both sides.
Catholics are neither liberal nor conservative, just Catholic.
I’d really encourage you to dialogue with an apologist who can answer your concerns better.
God bless!

Kathleen,

I have 16 yrs of RC education, including a BA in RC theology from an RC college.  I really do not an RC apologist to explain the RCC to me.

Lisa,
Depending upon your age & which college you attended, it’s quite possible your Catholic education had gaps. I’d still really encourage you to talk to someone.

Kathleen,

My RC education was very fine—1960s-1980s.  No gaps. You think my education ahd gaps becasue I am criticial of the bishops and of the RCC?  My yrs of RC education were the glorious yrs after Vatican II—when the “windows of th RCCC wer thrown wide open to allow in fresh air”.  Much was open to question, re-examination, etc.  Now the windows have been shut and the RCC is in a dcided march back to the Middle AGes.  Very sad.  I am glad God me elsewhere—to a place where I can still learn, question, am free to believe as God guides me, wher I am not required to abdicate my mind,  where people can engage the texts and we can all be right, where there is none of the high-handed clericialism of the RCC. 

The best thing about the RCC, the vowed women religious—are under attack by scared bishops looking to deflect attention away from their crimes of failing to protect children, who are frightened of independent inteeligent women living the message of a 1st century rabbi. 

No, I don’t need some right wing apologist to explaint the backward, illogical, irrational, sexist thinking of the RCC.

Well Lisa,
do you think your comments are quite fair & balanced? If they reflect some hurt you’ve received in the past, I’m sorry.
I can see how folks educated during those years might have your reactions, but not all have come to the same conclusions that you have.I hope you’ll keep reading the NCR & you’ll be in my prayers.
God bless you.

Kathleen,

You think because I am justly and accurately critical of the RCC, its basue of “some hurt” I received in the past??  What a very strange comment.  One that certainly ahs no basis in fact.  It sounds like you do not want to face up to the flaws and failures of the RCC. 

I read the REgidter from ime to time as a way to gauge the ongoing failure of the ideals and promise of Vatican II, to mourn what could have been.  The Registers is refelction of the trainwreck that the RCC has become.

The RCC, via its bishops and its high-handed culture of clericalism, its attack upon a key/vital part part of the RCC (the vowed women religious), its ongoing child abuse scandal/cover up of the scandal by bishops and cardinals, its false triumphalism, is destroying itself.  Which given its current state, is probably not a bad thing.  What does not change dies/goes extinct. God created a dynamic universe and the RCC just wants to march back to the Middle Ages.  C’est la vie.

Lisa,
I’m no psychologist & apologize for offering amateur insight, but my experience with folks as dissalusioned with the Church as you seem to be, has been that at some point they had a bad encounter with someone representing the Church.And there are plenty of folk out there who’ve done a terrible job of representing the Church.I’ve met a few.
But, I’m glad you come here to join in the conversation & wish you well.

Kathleen,

Re the RCC, I am not “disillusioned”.  One only has to look at how the bishops are behaving, to listen to what they are saying, to follow the their persecution of vowed women religious , to follow the reports on the sheer of number of folks who have fled the RCC (the RC pews in Europe have been empty for decades), to know that something is terribly, terribly wrong with the RCC.  That is just an ojective fact, it is reality, it is the state of affairs.  It has nothing to do with any subjective opnion.

The Register is the ongoing documentary evidence of the death rattle of the RCC.  And that death rattle is self-inflicted.  The RCC is destroying itself.  Its priests and its bishops are driving people away.  Its priest and bishops have been gulity of awful crimes against children—crimes from which the RCC has apparently learned nothing, despite the convictions, lawuits, bankruptices of dioceses, and budget-busing claims settlements.  The RC hierarchy would rather just attcked the women religious, attack the right of gay people to marry, than to reflect on its sins, falult and failings.  The RCC has learned nothing. It will die out.

The RC laity are in sore need of their own “Arab Spring” in order to rid the RCC of its “whitened sepulchres that hide corruption within”.

OK, Lisa, you’re beyond dissalusioned.
:)
I still hope you’ll keep coming here & dialogueing.
You have a good evening!

Kathleen,

Do you really not pay attention to what is going in your RCC???  AGain, I am not disillusioned. Take a look at the FACTS.  Your RCC is in deep trouble—not my opnion, it is reality.  And ignoring it, refusing to acknowledge it or trying to wish away reality will not change it.

Where is the surprise?  You knew the Rev Giglio was not the PC choice of the Obama generation of misreants and malcontents.  The Dept of Defense did the same to Franklin Graham by recinding his invitation to speak at the Pentagon for the National Day of Prayer.  One Islamic went apopletic and the White House caved.  What else would you expect from someone schooled in the false teaching of Chicago’s Rev. Jeremiah Wright?  No doubt Fr. Michael Phelan would have been the better choice since he, too, advocates the leftist wisdom of the socialism gospel.

Lisa,
I love my Church & pray for all those within. I hope you will pray for us, too.
I said a prayer for you last night before the Blessed Sacrament.
I hope you find peace & joy in your life.
Have a great weekend!

Kathleen,  Please honor my request here: do not pray for me to a god in which I do not believe.  If you want to pray for me, pray to Adonia, to Hashem.  Not to the non-existend “blessed sacrament”. 

I do have peace and joy in my life.

Lisa,
No offense intended.We all pray to the same Creator.

Casting Crowns,

Why stand up for haters who wnat to disguise their hate in “Christianity’?  Neither the President nor the Dept of Defense is obligated to give a pulpit to people who profess hate for any group of persons.  Neither the President nor the Defense Dept is obligated even to give a pulpit to a Christian or to an RC or to a clerrgy member of the version of Christainity in which you believe.

Hate is not a value that the President or the Defense Dept is obligated to subscribe to.  Like it or not, there are gay Americans and Muslim Americans who have the sem rights as straight Americans and as Christian Americans.

@Lisa Kaiser:  Oh, I see.  Whenever someone disagrees or doesn’t share the PC viewpoint of liberals, the opposition is accused of hate speech.  How very “tolerant?” of the left.  Christian people accept that you also have the right to invite gay ministers or Islamics to pray as well.  So go and schedule your own event.  People can make their own choice to attend or not.  Instead, your position is to silence those who disagree.
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But as for the values of this President, we know he doesn’t value human life in the womb nor does he value the right of Americans to live their lives free from the tyranny imposed by freebasing crack heads and policy operatives in the White House.  Obama and his Chicago-style politics are just the modern version of Boss Tweed and the Tammany Hall machine.

To discriminate between acts, including sexual acts, that respect the inherent personal and relational essence of the human person, and acts that do not respect the inherent personal and relational essence of the human person and are thus demeaning, is an act of Love.

Casting Crown,

I am saying that neither the President nor the Defense Department have to invite anyone clergy to do anything.  They are free to invite or not invite whom they wish.

Sorry but the fact is that both Graham and Giglio have been gulity of hate speech and intolerant toward the rights and human dignity of Muslim Americans and gay Americans. Sorry if you don’t like the facts.  But of course neither Graham nor Giglio have been “silenced”.  They are both still free to express their opnions, to preach their message, to publish their thoughts, in print and/or online. Graham in aprticular has great access to the all sorts of media. 

And you are of course free to express your opinions about the President, but they are silly opinions with no basis in fact. 

@Lisa Kaiser:  The endless string of executive orders and appointments without due process of Congressional approval are factual not opinion.  Government by tyranny.  As for Giglio, Graham and the Catholic church postion regarding gay marriage, since you (and your people) dislike what they stand for, you call it hate speech.  Others do not agree with you.  Get over yourself.

Casting Crowns:

It is fact that President Obama has issued far fewer executive order than George W. Bush.  Government by tyranny is the credo of the GOP.  I have no clue what you mean by “your people”.  Strange and weird comment for you to make.  Sorry you will not admit that Graham et al engage in hate speech. Facts are facts and hate speech is hate speech.  You need to get over yourself and see reality.

@ Lisa Check the National Archive.  President Obama has had more EOs in his first Term than President Bush in two. 

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/disposition.html

@ Lisa.  Oops looked at it wrong.  Sorry.

@Lisa Kaiser:  The “your people” are you—and those who think as you do.  It’s interesting that while Giglio was disinvited, the minister replacing him was Episcopal priest Luis Leon of DC.  I noticed the irony of today’s benediction.  Leon and Obama both with heads bowed while praying for God’s blessings.  Since you have an extensive Catholic education, likely you must have been ill when it was explained God does not bless nor hear the prayers of those who are (a), unrepentant of sin nor (b), those who advocate sinful behavior.  Both the Rev Leon and Obama support gay marriage and Obama supports the murder of innocents in the womb.  Obama will continue to struggle in office and the Rev Leon is part of a decaying church which is losing membership due to their schism.  No blessings will come nor should any be expected by people who hold unbiblical positions like gay marriage and abortion rights.

In a free country a very miniscule minority has freedom to announce their sexual lifestyle. But Christians are denied that right to announce that a particular style is sinful. I can understand that force or violence should not be used. Even atheists are free to propagate atheism without injuring the feelings of others.  So what is the conclusion ?  The President is some degree anti-catholic. Of course he has his Biden, Pelosi etc in the band wagon.

Casting Crown,

No human being know what prayers God hears or doe not hear. 
The idea that any human being thinks he/she know the mind of God is hubris in the extreme and just plain false.

The RCC is a decaying church losing members at a rapid rate.  The RC pews in Europe have ben empty for at least a generation, the pews in America are empyting out.  In Latin America (central and south), evangelical churches are taking members away from the RCC.

If you do not like that in the US our Constituion rules and not the RCC, then pelase feel free to leave America.  Perhpas you would like the postions of Iran, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, the taliban, etc on the issues of same-sex marriage, women, the ability of women to make their healtcare choices, etc.  You seem in sync with those governments.

K C thomas,

Presient Obama is not “anti-Catholic”.  The US is not an RC theocracy.  The US is palce of diverse faith traidtions and many American profess no religious affilation.  Whgat the RC bishops and many RC whine about is that the the RCC in the US does not get its way on everything.  Which is super.  This does nmen tha the Preisent is “anti-Catholic”.  It means that the President understands that he is the President of all American, not just RCs.  In the US, it is our Constitution that is the rule of law, not pronouncments from Rome.

KC Thomas,

Christians are NOT “denied that right to announce that a particular style is sinful.”  Christians engage in this kind of hate speech in the public square all the time.  You are confused.  What you do not like is that most people call this kind of thing what is: hate speech.  And you do not like that sane, reasonable, moral, logical people do not not buy into the hate speech that the RCC and other some Chrisians are putting out there.  No one is being silenced, everyone is free to express an opinion.  Just don’t expect everyone to agree. And expect that free speech has consequences. Namely that other people will rightly call such speech hate speech, that other people will rightly reject such speech and that people who express such bigoted and backward ideas will not always be invited to an inaugaration of a a POTUS. 

@Lisa Kaiser:  We see now that you (and “your people”) are the final arbitrators of defining what is “hate” speech.  How very convenient. 
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[“The idea that any human being thinks he/she know the mind of God is hubris in the extreme and just plain false.”]  Lisa, honey, the mind of God has been revealed in His word both in the OT and New.  His character has been revealed to His people so we know how He operates.  Even you, Lisa Kaiser (and “your people”) have been identified in 1 Corinthians 1:18 to wit “But the word of God is foolishness to a perishing man.”  It is thus your own hubris (and “your people”) to think you can violate and ignore God’s word, sin against Him . . . and get away with it.
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Proverbs 14:34 says: “Righteousness exaults a nation, but sin condemns any people.”  Advocacy, supporting or participating in gay marriage or abortion are defined as sin in God’s eyes.  You, Lisa Kaiser, (and “your people”) may think your prideful viewpoints are righteous, but they pale in the acid test of what the Lord has already defined.  He sets the terms, you (and “your people”) do not.

Casrting Crown,

First of, do NOT call me “honey”.  That is NOT your place.  Secondly, no human knows what prayers God hear or does not hear.  Thirdly, the Bible, neither in Hebrew scripture nor Christian scriputre addresses same-sex marriage.  I am not talking about abortion—that appartenlty is your obsession..  Thirdly, you and the RCC certainly do NOT set the terms of what is righteous.

And yes it is convenient that I and “my people” are indeed the final arbiters of what is hate speech (sarcasms).  But it is clear that you and “your people” do indeed engaged in bigoted heate speech—the facts are the facts.

@Lisa Kaiser:  No, the RCC nor do I set the terms of what is righteous.  God’s word has already set a **timeless and unchanging** standard.  My position along with you (and “your people”) is to comply with obedience.  You’re either not listening or have comprehension deficiency.
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Clearly you, radical feminists, Messrs Axelrod, Plouffe (and the rest of “your people”) of the Obama generation of malcontents are suffering the effects of smoking excessive weed in college.

Lisa Kaiser writes:  [“the Bible, neither in Hebrew scripture nor Christian scriputre addresses same-sex marriage.”]
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Leviticus 18:22   “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”
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Romans 1:26-29   “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions.  For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.  And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.  They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness.” 
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Lisa Kaiser, what God describes as a debased mind is that your conscience has become seared and God has given you over to yourself.  You still, though, have time to repent, however it’s unlikely you (and “your people”) will.  Better quit now rather than further embarrassing yourself.

Leviticus is the book of rules for the Levites—the assitant priest—who no longer exist.

Romans is written by Paul—who like the writers of Leviticus did not understand even the concept of same-sex marriage.  or even the idea of being gay. 

The RCC is taking writings from ancient times that have no application to our cultural, to our understanding of these concepts. 

Do you take very line of Leviticus literally?? If not, then you have no right to cherry pick what you think is right or not.  In Leviticus it is an abomination to eat shrimp and pork.  Do you eat shrimp and/or pork?  Do we get to stone you death???

Casting Crown,

The fact that you use the phrase “radical feminists” means you are brainwashed by the RCC, are Neanderthal, have no credibility and think we are still living in the Middle Ages.

@Lisa Kaiser:  That’s hilarious.  You assume I am brainwashed by the RCC.  Your stubborness to accept God’s holy word (the Bible) as inerrant and Holy Spirit inspired has resulted in your disobedience.  You have placed yourself on the throne and usurped the honor and glory due Christ for your own prideful self.  God calls that sin.
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Nimrod had your attitude and we know what tragic end he came to.  So too, Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon who ended up on all fours eating grass like a billy goat.  You also sound like Pharaoh when Moses told him “Hear and obey the Lord.”  Your response is like Pharaoh:  “Who is the Lord that ‘I’ should obey him?”

Casting Crown,

You did not answer my question.  Do you take everything in the Bible literally??  Do you take everything in Levitcus literally??  Levitcus says it is an abomination to eat shrimpe and pork.  If you eat shrimp and pork, you are cherry picking and deciding for yourself what parts of Leviticus you have to abide by or not abide by. How you handle your slaves.  Leviticus and other books of the Bbile set out rules for that.  Since the Bible ahs rules for that, you should be a slave owner right?  The Bible says its OK to kill a defiant child.  Have you done that?  The Bible says its OK to kill magicians.  Have you done that?  If not why not?  The Bible says its OK. In fact, the Bible commands it. Go to Las Vegas now and kill a magician—the Bible gives you permission.

Each book of the Bible was written by different people, in times and palces and in different cultures, in different political realities, in different contexts.  But you think we are stuck living witht he same rules set out more than 4,000 yrs ago?????  Should we be able to stone you to death if we decide you have not observed the Sabbath correctly????  The Bible say that its OK to do that.  So watch out!!!

Just becasue the Bible is the message of God’s relationship with God’s peoples, does not mean it has to be read literally.  Go the websiet of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and look at the the introduction to the New American Bbile.  Not even your RCC says that the Bbile is to be read literally.  The bishops say that the Bible is NOT a book of history or science.  Our understanding of many things, including sex and sexuality have advanced.

Also, you do not get judge whether I am “stubborn” or “disobeient”  That is your hubris talking.  God is the sole judge.   

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“Not even your RCC says that the Bbile is to be read literally.  The bishops say that the Bible is NOT a book of history or science.  Our understanding of many things, including sex and sexuality have advanced.
Also, you do not get judge whether I am “stubborn” or “disobeient”  That is your hubris talking.  God is the sole judge.”]
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The RCC is not “mine” since I am not responsible for the creation of their doctrine.  What the bishops have to say concerning the Bible is of little interest since their CCC and sacred tradition has been elevated to equal standing with God’s word.  Dietary laws were necessary for the times due to health reasons so you needn’t attempt to trap me with rules and laws as did the Pharisees with Christ.  Even Jesus Himself healed on the Sabbath and was highly criticized.  As for judging, I cannot judge your eternal salvation, but we can judge sinful behavior when you (and “your people) parade it and celebrate it before all to see.  You, Obama, and all (“your people”) cannot change what God has ordained in His word.  The word of God——-endureth forever.

Lisa Kaiser your comments are a refreshing challenge to the church party-line blather!  The Catholic VOTERS soundly repudiated the USCCB official positions and exhortations.  In Florida, two proposed “religious freedom” amendments to the State Constitution, lobbied loudly by the Florida bishops, failed to get even a simple majority, never mind the 60% approval for passage.  On birth control, women’s health, gay rights the Church is as out of touch today as when Mass was in Latin or the South was dominated by Democratic politicians.  It’s not a matter of “Eternal Truth”: living rights of living people will stand as human freedom (not license) grows.  Just look at the Episcopalians, or even some Eastern rite churches.

@Dave Sanders:  Bear in mind I make zero attempt to carry any water for the Catholic Bishops.  The USCCB largely exist in their own fantasy world like just recently spending three years to “tweak” the verbiage in the Mass such as “Consubstantial with the Father” or changing cup to “chalice.”  As if any of that matters.  What matters apparently is that these changes resulted in new liturgical books, a ca$h cow for Catholic publishing houses and added expense for every diocesan parish needing to purchase new books by command of their local bishop.  That being said, your comments that the RCC is “out of touch” opens the question of whether Christ needs to conform to the people’s wishes or do we conform to His?  And as for RC’s soundly repudiating biblical positions of law at the polls, it raises the question of whether people who *idenify* as RC are really Catholic at all?  Likely, they come from a RC family as a child and that’s the only church they know but haven’t been to church for 20 years or only show up on Christmas Day.  Are such self-identified RC’s really Catholic or even Christian as all?  Not likely.  Your post reflects society has very much moved fully into the post-modern age of moral relativism.  People who think like this promote their “enlightened” view when actually we’ve seen this dog and pony show before in the Book of Judges before King Saul came on the scene.  In the Book of Judges we read “where every man did what is right—**in his own eyes.**”  Indeed, who is it that sets the ultimate standard of truth and human behavior,—you or God?  If you are a disciple of Christ, you know it is He who sits on the throne and His people do not.

Casting Crowns,

Thankfully, the US is not a theocracy and restricted by what ancient cultures thought of as “law”—stoning to death defiant children, stoning to death people who did not keep the Sabbath, stoning to death people who commit adultery, believing that eating shrimp is an abomination, freeing slaves after 7 yrs, making certain men marry the women they rape, etc, etc.

And thnkfully, the USA is a nation of diverse faith tradtions.  So Rome does not get rule in America. Our laws are not based upon what RC priest pedophiles and those bishops and cardinals who cover up their crimes think is right.  Our laws are not based upon the immature, illogical, unhealthy, unscientific, discriminatory ideas the RCC puts forth about women and about sex/sexuality. 

God created a dynamic universe. So bravo for change, bravo for evolution in nature and in human thought.  Bravo for all Americans who stand up for liberty and justice for all, who stand up for the the 14th Amendment (equal protection under the law). Bravo for all Americans who embrace the First Amendment’s separation of state and church—its keeps the creepy pedophile-protecting RC bishops and cardinals out of our government.

Lisa, oh what a tangled web you weave…

Nancy,

Is that your way of saying you know that I m right?

@Lisa Kaiser:  You clearly have some kind of spiritual blindness to keep associating me with some kind of support of the USCCB or those “creepy” people you define.  The creepy people you mention and those who protected them need to be prosecuted, defrocked and locked up.  Case closed.  You need look no further than the news coming from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles two days ago which confirm priests were sent outside the state of CA with the sole intent to avoid law enforcement.  Cardinal Mahoney (Ret) should be prosecuted for this regardless of any statute of limitations.  These so-called “holy men of God” are not holy, they are disgusting criminals using their crucifix as justfication for sin.
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You are in error regarding the 1st Amendment.  There is no “separation of church and state” written there. 
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To wit:  “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
—The prohibition is against the establishment of a state religion or any state run church.  I know this irks you (and “your people”) who keep lying about a “separation of church and state.”  Did you know over 50 signers of the US Constitution were Pastors and sons of Pastors?  The United States is the first nation ever established using biblical precepts and principles in the formation of law and the rights of citizens.
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And no one is supporting any idea that Rome should have any business sticking their nose into American government.  I say this even as Benedict has chosen to inject his flawed opinions concerning our 2nd Amendement.  The man is German, not an American citizen.
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Lisa Kaiser, never mind the issue of government, you seem to have a larger and more personal problem with obeying God’s word.  Why are you so hostile to submitting yourself in obedience to the Lord?

Casting Crowns,

First and foremost you are mistaken or lying about the First Amendment: there is separation of church and state.  The Constitution is not just a document.  It is also found in the interpretation given it by the US Supreme Court.  In decades of decisions, the Court has found that the First Amendment of the US Constitution mandates a separation between church and state.  And to quote you: I know this irks you (and “your people”) who keep lying about a “separation of church and state.” 

So what if the signers of the Consittution were pastors or sons of pastors?  They did NOT estblish the nation as a Christian nation.

Submission is for those hwo hold to the tenets of Islam.  Islam means surrender or submission.  I belong to another people altogether. I bleong to a faith tradition that does not require abdication of the mind.  We are free to question, to think for ourselves.  We have a relationship, a partnership, an ongoing, unbroken covenan with God.  we are the God-wrestlers.  We wrestle with God and with scripture. 

If you want to be RC and think that means you are to “submit”, go for it.  But that is your thing and your church’s thing (which works to the benefit of a corrupt hierarchy).  But the RCC is NOT the be all and end all.  The RCC is one faith tradition among many others.  It is not the sole source of God’s truth on earth.  There are many paths to God.  So it is not up to you or to the RCC to decide whether I am “obedient” to God.

@Lisa Kaiser:  I have two questions for you which will enable me to understand you better.  You say you belong to a “faith tradition.”
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1.  Which “faith tradition” do you belong to?
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2.  Is Jesus the Son of God?

Casting Crowns,

I am a Jew.  So no, Jews do not believe that Jesus is “son of God”.  What we know and believe and say is that Judaism was the religion OF Jesus and Christianity is the religion ABOUT Jesus.

@Lisa Kaiser:  Thanks for your information.  That indeed changes the entire dynamic of the conversation.  You had earlier created an impression you might be a fallen away Catholic having issues with the RCC as do many people—especially liberals and progressives who frequent Catholic blogs with their anti-Catholic church rhetoric.  You’ve certainly made some worthy points of discussion, however, since you are Jewish rather than Catholic or Christian, I can now better appreciate your worldview perspective. 
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So how do you (as a Jew) view Jesus of Nazareth?  Who is Jesus to you?  And, are you (as a Jew) still waiting for the promised Messiah?

Casting Crowns,

Please know that I have more than 16 yrs of RC education in RC school s and have a BA in RC theology form an RC college.  So I am very very familiar with the RCC teaches.  I am not “fallen away” RC.  I am a former RC whom God has has led in a different direction.

Jesus of Narareth was an observant Jew, a human being.  He taught straight from the Torah, his social message was nothing new—it is all found in the Torah.  He did what all preachers do—he sought to make the ancient scriptures compelling and relevant tot he people of his time. He wanted to go back to the message of Dt 6:4-5.

The concept of messiah is a concept found in Judaism.  Jesus does not meet that definition.  Saul of Tarsus warped the defintion in order that Jesus fit it and Gentiles who did not know better bought into that warped, inaccurate definition.  But jesus does not meet the definition.  Jews have many ideas and beliefs about a “messiah”.  God may usher in a “messianic age”, rather than send a being/person” who is “the messiah”.  Mnay Jews over the many ages have been called a messiah” because of their faith and actions. 

With Jews, our relationship with God is about “deed, not creed”.  We are free to believe what we wish re thse matters.  That is why ther are many beliefs and we are not required to subscribe to any one belief about a “messiah”.

@Lisa Kaiser, you seem to have problem attributing to me things I either already acknowledged or corrected.  What the RCC teaches is hardly core to the discussion and I am not here to defend the RCC nor their doctrine.  If you have converted from Catholicism to Judaism, you are certainly free to do that.  You have 16, but I have 18 years of RC education with an MA from a Jesuit University.  That, along with $4.00 will buy me a Mocha Grande at Starbucks.  Academic one upmanship is not germaine to faith.  I’ve listened to Catholic Theologians, Bishops, Priests, Protestant and Evangelical ministers who teach things far from the truth of the gospel despite their diplomas.  Three days ago, that nutcase giving the benediction for Obama is only one of them.
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Since you now follow Judaism and the Torah, you appear to have a distorted view of your own faith.  Messianic Prophesy is hardly some “concept.”  Your Torah is exhaustively filled with prophesy of the coming Messiah and each prophesy was fulfilled in the person of Jesus (the Christ).  For you to accept the Torrah, do you also accept that your Hebrew Prophets proclaiming the Messiah to come are now liars?
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How do you as a Jew explain Luke 4:20-21 with Jesus’ proclimation in the Synagogue or the eyewitness accounts of the miracles of Jesus and of his resurrection from the dead?  This is a concept ??  While we know what the gospel says concerning His healings because those are recorded.  Very likely, though, Jesus cured thousands upon thousands of people not even recorded.
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You wrote:  [“With Jews, our relationship with God is about “deed, not creed”.  Based on your statement, how many “works” must you do in order to please God and thus satisfy his condition for your own salvation?  And how will you ever know when you have done enough “deeds?”
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Indeed, Lisa Kaiser, please consider this.  Either Jesus was (and is) who He claimed to be, or He is the biggest fraud to ever walk across the planet.  It’s the ultimate question in life.  Not “Whom do ‘men’ say that I am?” but moreover, “Whom do YOU say that I am?”  Your response will determine your eternal destiny forever.

Casting Crowns,

First and foremost, you are looking at Judaism through the lens of RCism.  So your view is very distorted and inaccurate.

What I mean by “deed rahter than creed” is that Jews are are free to believe as we wish about the messiah, about the afterlife, etc.  Withing Judaims there is no central authority setting out dogma and doctrine.  Our tradition does not require abdication of the mind.  So Jews can believe as we wish.  What matters for us is living a Jewish life, being concerned about community, being concerned about tikkun olam (the Healing/repair of the world—social justice, feeding the hungry, helping the vulnerable—no matter who they are), being concerned about learning Torah and the Hebrew scripture, being active in the worship life of the synagogue—that kind of thing.  We Jews because of how we beleive, belong and/or behave.

Also, deeds are NOT about “salvation”.  We Jews try to live good lives according to the Law of the Torah because God commands it and because it is right.  It is NOT about being afraid of eternal damnation or going to heaven.  Again, within Judaism, there are many beliefs about whether there is an afterlife or not, and if so, what that may look like.  Again, no central authority dictates our belief.  we are free to reach our conclusion based upon our tradtions, etc.  We try to life a good life for the sake of living a good life. 

Secondly, no prophet in the Hebrew scripture is “liar”.  Again, this is your RC lens distorting your view.  Christains believe that Jesus is God and Messiah.  Jews do not.  Our belief is as valid as yor belief.  You think we are wrong.  We believe Chrsitains are wrong.  RCism is not superior to, better than, triumpahnt over Judaism or Islam.  Each Abrahamic tradition has valid, ongoing, unbroken covenants with God.  Even your RCC teaches that.

Yous say “Either Jesus was (and is) who he claimed to be, or he is the biggest fraud to ever walk across the planet.  It’s the ultimate question in life.  Not “Whom do ‘men’ say that I am?” but moreover, “Whom do YOU say that I am?”  You totally discount the third and most likely possibility.  None of the writers of the NT gospels knew Jesus, met Jesus.  The gospels were written long after Jesus died (ahd stayed dead).  There is no way to verify that Jesus said any of the things attributed to him by the writers of the gospels.  It is more than likely they put words in his mouth to convey a certain message to certain audiences.  Jesus taught from the Torah, beyond that anything that conveys he may be God or messiah is fiction created by the writers of the gospels trying to convince the depsarate and gullible of something that was not and is not true.

You say, “Your response will determine your eternal destiny forever.”  Wow, talk about fiction!!!! Again, you are trying to impose your RCism upon another ongoing, unbroken, valid Abrahamic tradition.  Believe what you want, but do not try to to impose that upon Judaism.  Our tradition is 4,500 yrs old and ongoing.  God loves us and we remain a chosen people.  RCism has NOTHING to do with our tradition and our ongoing, unbroken and valid relationship with God. For 600 yrs during the Inquisitio, the RC tortured and murdered Jews, forced conversion upon Jews at the point of the sword, segregated us, forced us out pf many profession, closed universities to us.  And guess what?  We remain and we thrive.

Too bad if you do not like that, but the reality is the reality.  Our “salvation” has nothing to do with RC dogma or doctrine.  We have our own relationship with God.  And God has alwqays given us God’s love and grace.  RCism is totally irrelevant to Judaism.

Casting Crowns,

First and foremost, you are looking at Judaism through the lens of RCism.  So your view is very distorted and inaccurate.

What I mean by “deed rahter than creed” is that Jews are are free to believe as we wish about the messiah, about the afterlife, etc.  Withing Judaims there is no central authority setting out dogma and doctrine.  Our tradition does not require abdication of the mind.  So Jews can believe as we wish.  What matters for us is living a Jewish life, being concerned about community, being concerned about tikkun olam (the Healing/repair of the world—social justice, feeding the hungry, helping the vulnerable—no matter who they are), being concerned about learning Torah and the Hebrew scripture, being active in the worship life of the synagogue—that kind of thing.  We Jews because of how we beleive, belong and/or behave.

Also, deeds are NOT about “salvation”.  We Jews try to live good lives according to the Law of the Torah because God commands it and because it is right.  It is NOT about being afraid of eternal damnation or going to heaven.  Again, within Judaism, there are many beliefs about whether there is an afterlife or not, and if so, what that may look like.  Again, no central authority dictates our belief.  we are free to reach our conclusion based upon our tradtions, etc.  We try to life a good life for the sake of living a good life. 

Secondly, no prophet in the Hebrew scripture is “liar”.  Again, this is your RC lens distorting your view.  Christains believe that Jesus is God and Messiah.  Jews do not.  Our belief is as valid as yor belief.  You think we are wrong.  We believe Chrsitains are wrong.  RCism is not superior to, better than, triumpahnt over Judaism or Islam.  Each Abrahamic tradition has valid, ongoing, unbroken covenants with God.  Even your RCC teaches that.

Yous say “Either Jesus was (and is) who he claimed to be, or he is the biggest fraud to ever walk across the planet.  It’s the ultimate question in life.  Not “Whom do ‘men’ say that I am?” but moreover, “Whom do YOU say that I am?”  You totally discount the third and most likely possibility.  None of the writers of the NT gospels knew Jesus, met Jesus.  The gospels were written long after Jesus died (ahd stayed dead).  There is no way to verify that Jesus said any of the things attributed to him by the writers of the gospels.  It is more than likely they put words in his mouth to convey a certain message to certain audiences.  Jesus taught from the Torah, beyond that anything that conveys he may be God or messiah is fiction created by the writers of the gospels trying to convince the depsarate and gullible of something that was not and is not true.

You say, “Your response will determine your eternal destiny forever.”  Wow, talk about fiction!!!! Again, you are trying to impose your RCism upon another ongoing, unbroken, valid Abrahamic tradition.  Believe what you want, but do not try to to impose that upon Judaism.  Our tradition is 4,500 yrs old and ongoing.  God loves us and we remain a chosen people.  RCism has NOTHING to do with our tradition and our ongoing, unbroken and valid relationship with God. For 600 yrs during the Inquisitio, the RC tortured and murdered Jews, forced conversion upon Jews at the point of the sword, segregated us, forced us out pf many profession, closed universities to us.  And guess what?  We remain and we thrive.

Too bad if you do not like that, but the reality is the reality.  Our “salvation” has nothing to do with RC dogma or doctrine.  We have our own relationship with God.  And God has alwqays given us God’s love and grace.  RCism is totally irrelevant to Judaism.

@Lisa Kaiser:  Moses was correct when he called you a “stiff necked” people.  I’ve grown fatigued telling you I am not defending Catholicism so stop calling it “mine.”  You reject what your own Hebrew prophets claimed thus you clearly believe they are liars.
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[“The gospels were written long after Jesus died (ahd stayed dead).  There is no way to verify that Jesus said any of the things attributed to him by the writers of the gospels.  It is more than likely they put words in his mouth to convey a certain message to certain audiences.”] 
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False.  Matthew and John walked with Jesus for His three years of ministry.  Mark was a secretary to Peter and wrote what Peter told him.  Peter’s letters in 1 & 2 are eyewitness accounts.  The execution of the apostles are documented history.  Men do not willingly go to their death over make believe fables or legends.

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“There is no way to verify that Jesus said any of the things attributed to him by the writers of the gospels.
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Consider there is also no way to verify that Abraham or Moses said any of the things attributed to them in the Torah.  (Though no doubt you like that even Jesus validated what was written). 
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It’s not my responsibilty to convince you of anything.  You are free to believe as you wish even when you deny what is written in your own Torah.

Casting Crown,

You are quite incorrect about the Gospel of Matthew.  It was not written by the apostle Matthew and it was written long after Jesus’s death.  Please read the intrdoduction tot htat gosple found in the New American Bbile.  It can be found online on the website. of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The intorduction to the Gospel of Matthew found in the New American Bible (an RC Bible endorsed by the RC bishops) says:  “The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew (see Mt 10:3) is untenable because the gospel is based, in large part, on the Gospel according to Mark (almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this), and it is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories.”  the date of the Gospel of Matthew is after 70CE.

As for Peter and Mark.  Again, no way to verify anything.  Its just fcition meant to convey a message.  Again, please read some serious Biblical scholarship on the gospels.

You say, “Men do not willingly go to their death over make believe fables or legends.”  Are you serious????  People have died for all kinds of beliefs throughput the millenia—beliefs you would call myths and fables.  Many Muslins have died for their fiath, Hindus have died for their faith, Buddhists have died for ther faith, Jews have dies for their faith. Even the “pagan” peoples of the Middle East were slaughtered for their beleifs by other peoplew who disagreed with whatever the faith was.  Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, and many other native peoples of the Americas were slaughtered for their faith by the RCC in order to force conversions onthe those who remained.  You would call all these beliefs myths and fables.  Its not just Christians who have died for a faith or a belief.  Please read some history.

As for the Torah—I never said I reaid it literally. History is on thing and faith is another.  You beleive in Jesus—but the gospels are not history or fact.  I beleive in the message of the Torah. Especially, Dt 6:4-9 It does not disturb me that it is not history or fact.

Casting Crowns,

Yes, we Jews are a stiff-necked people!!!  It is why our tradition is 4,500 yrs old and still going strong!! 

And NO,  the prophelts of Hebrew scripture are not “liars” as you so wrongly assert.  The messiah or the messianic age is yet to come.  Jesus was not the person the our prophets were talking about.  Jesus does not met the definition of messiah as set out in Judaism.  Noboyd is lying.  Its just that Christians want to impose a false message upon our prophets—a message that our prophets clearly never intded to convey.  Christianity ahs deliberately distorted the message of our prophets.

You apparently do not understand that Christianity has twisted the Jewish concept and definition of messiah in order to make it appear as if Jesus was the messiah.  Christainity has distorted Judaism.  Christianity ahd to resort to this in order to get Gentiles, the desparate and the gullible, none of whom knew any better, to accept the message of Paul and Peter.

Casting Crowns,

Yes, we are a sifffnecked people!!  It is why our tradition has survived, it why our tradition is 4,500 yrs old!  It is why even after 600 yrs of the RCC’s Inquistion—the torture and murder of Jews, forced conversion of some Jews, the segregation of Jews in European cities, the clsoing of professions and universities to Jews—there are still J millions of Jews in the world today!

We are stiff necked in upholding or end of God’s ongoing, unbbroken and valid Covenant of Love with us!  We remain a chosen people!  We will never bow to the false message of Christianity.  It is a deliberate distortion of our tradition.

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“the prophets of Hebrew scripture are not “liars” as you so wrongly assert.”]  Lisa, your comments make people question your own ability to actually process the argument.  As a disciple of Christ, I accept all the prophesy written in the Torrah.  Since you (Lisa) have rejected their prophesy for that which has already come to pass, it is you who have rendered your own prophets as liars.
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Prophet Hosea 4:6 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.”  Jesus fulfilled over 300 Old Testament prophecies written about the Messiah.  Perhaps in your mind that’s only a coincidence?  Not very likely.
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Luke 24:44 “Then he (Jesus) said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me (*Jesus*) in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
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In John 5:46, Jesus states:  “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.”      (Lisa, if you believed Moses, you would believe Jesus.  You are thus calling Jesus a liar).
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John 1:11 “He came to His own, (the Jewish people) and those who were His own did not receive Him.”  That would be you, Lisa Kaiser.
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Written 700 years earlier, Isaiah wrote and foreshadowed the life and mission of Jesus.  Isaiah 53:3 states that a servant of God would be rejected and despised. Jesus was indeed rejected by many people living in the land of Israel, —notably the Jewish leaders of local synagogues and the Temple in Jerusalem.  He was later crucified by the Romans which was predicted in King David’s Psalm 22 hundreds of years before this kind of execution was even invented.
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Here’s and interesting comment by 16th Century Jewish Rabbi Eliyyah de Vidas re Isaiah 53:  “But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities,”—-the meaning of which is that since the Messiah bears our iniquities which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that who so will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer for them himself.”

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“We remain a chosen people!  We will never bow to the false message of Christianity.”]  What of anything is false about Jesus?  I think you have forgotten Jesus was not a Gentile, but a Jewish Rabbi.  To follow Jesus (the Christ) is the spiritual progression of being Jewish.

Casting Crowns,

Again you are viweing Judaism and the Torah and the Hebrew prophets through the lens of RCism.  That is distorting your view of Judaism.  No, the messiah, the messianic age the prophets were talking about HAS not come.  They were NOT talking about Jesus.  You are RC, so you think they were talking about Jesus—but that isjust not true.  You are trying to impose something on the Hebrew prophets that the prophets themselves never intended.  It is a a misuse and of Judaism and a disrespect of of our ongoing, unbroken and valid covenant with God to do what you are trying to do to Judaism.

So, NO, the Hebrew prophets are NOT liars and I do not see them as liars. That is your weird and bizarre interpretation.

You set out a lot of NT quotes above.  Again, Jesus probably never even said these thing, they may be total fiction , statements put in his mouth th by the writers of the gospels (who wrote long after Jesus died and stayed dead). But if Jesus lied, then Jesus lied.  No skin off my teeth.  That seems to be more of a potential problem for Christians.  Its certainly no problem for any Jew.

NO, Jesus fulfilled NO prophicies of Hebrew scripture. Christians may falsely believe that Jesus fulfilled prophies becasue the definition and concept of messiah in Judaism were distorted by Paul in order to make Jesus fit into Paul’s fictional defintion of messiah.

Believe what you want, but do not disrespect 4,500 yrs of Judaism by trying to impose Christian fiction upon it.  Christianity is totally irevelant to the ongoing, unbroken, valid covenant between God and Jews.  Nothing Christianity has to say about Judaism is relevant to or has any impact on the ongoing,unbroken and valid covenant between God and Jews.  We do not care what Christians have to say about our tradition, especailly if its only to impose fiction on our tradition.

Casting Crown,

Cruxifiction loooong pre-dated the Roman Empire.  It was an ancient practice used by Persians and other lllong before the Roman Empire.  So yes, the Hebrew prophets would have been familiar with this practice.  So any discussion of it in Hebrew wscripture ahs nothing to with Jesus.  Please read some history.

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“Jesus fulfilled NO prophicies of Hebrew scripture.”]  Lisa, you sound like your Herodian King Herod Agrippa II.  Or is he make-believe also?
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Since you reject Jesus and the Christian faith, of what possible interest to you is this NCR website?

Casting Crowns,

Yes, Jesus was a rabbi.  No, Jesus was not God or the Messiah.  Certainly NOT the “Anointed One (the Christ).  Again, Jesus does not fit Judaism’s definition of messiah. To think of Jesus as God is complete idolatry as far as Judaism is concerned.  Jesus as God is completely false.
Dt 6:4:  “Hear O Israel, the Lord the God is One.”  NOT 3 persons in one God.  God is ONE (there are no 3 persons).  Again, the “trinity” ideas is a fiction made up in order to con people into thinking Jesus was God. 

You have the following thing backwards.  Jesus was following the Torah—as every Jew is supposed to do.  So he he was an observant Jew who preached the Torah in a compelling way.  That’s it.  So, no there is no “spiritual progression” in “following” Jesus.

Again, viewing Judaism through the lens of RCism distorts Judaism and leads to false ideas, inaacurate statements and to false conclusions.  If you want to understand Judaism, read the writing of Jewish scholars, theologians, etc.  See Judaism through the lens of Judaism.

Casting Crowns,

Again, you want to see Judaism through the lens of RCism. I cannot reject what is not true.  Jesus was not God, Christianity is based upon a distortion of Judaism. 

Herod is NOT my king, nor the king of any living Jew. Herod wa client king of the Roman Empire.  Herod was an actual person, but much written about him in the NT IS fiction.  In the NT he is presented as an analog to the pharoah(s) of the Book of Exodus—with the idea of trying to convince the gullible and the gentiles that Jesus could be compared to Moses.

The RCC is a large golboal organization.  It spends a lot of time, money & effort in political lobbying in the US.  So I am interested in its attempts to influence federal and state lawmakers, in its efforts to impose its teachings upon all Americanss.  So I read a number of RC publications to see what message the RCC is putting out to American Catholics  

@Lisa Kaiser:  I accept Jesus on the basis of who He claimed to be —the Son of the living God.  When questioned, Jesus said He was the Christ,  the Messiah.  The lens of RCism is immaterial since all who accept Jesus as the Christ are not RC. 
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You wrote:  [“The RCC is a large global organization.  It spends a lot of time, money & effort in political lobbying in the US.  So I am interested in its attempt to influence federal and state lawmakers, in its efforts to impose its teachings upon all Americans.”]  Likely, you would be happy thus with Catholic Nancy Pelosi who calls the Catholic Bishops “Just another lobby group.”  But since Christianity is rooted in the Torah, are not many Christian-held positions of faith, personal conduct and morality also in line with your Jewish-held beliefs?  Should not Christians and Jews alike come together in areas of common purpose? 
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In your own Torah you have promises of blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience in how you should live.  So why would a Jew hop on board and support behavior God had already ordained and revealed are immoral and wicked in His eyes?

Casting Crownsn

You wrote, “I accept Jesus on the basis of who He claimed to be —the Son of the living God.  When questioned, Jesus said He was the Christ,  the Messiah.”  There is no proof Jesus ever said such a thing. Ther is no way to prove that Jesus claimed this.  Its most likely words teh later writers of the gspels put into Jesus’ mouth long after he died and stayed dead.  The earliest gospels were not written until about 60-70CE.  So the writers of the gospels did not know Jesus, never heard him speak. 

Ok, so my point is that you look at Judaism through the lens of Christianity—whichgive you a distorted and innacurate picture of Judaism.

Yes, the RC bishops are just another lobbying group. 

We are genrally a nation of Judeo-Christian culture.  So, yes Judaism and Christinaiy have much in common. But the areas where the bishops lobby heaviest—anti-choice, anti-gay—are not areas that all American Jews agree upon.  Most American Jews do not support the RC bishops in these areas.  In fact, most Americans generally do not agree with the RC bishops in these areas.

But probably most American Jews would agree that common sense immigration reform is long overdue.  And probably a lot of American Jews would upport some commons sense gun-control.

But of course, I do not speak for all American Jews.  I can give an educated guess based upon my experience, my reading and my observations.

@Lisa Kaiser:  I do not have enough faith to ever deny the gospel of Jesus Christ.  In fact the entire OT is the revelation of Jesus, the Christ.
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In Daniel 3:25, Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar has Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego thrown into the firey furnace for execution.  Nebuchadnezzar proclaims and says:  “Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”  Whom do you think shows up as the 4th face in the fire?

Casting Crowns,

NO, the Hebrew scriptures have nothing to with the man Jesus—who was not God or messiah.  As a Christian you are trying to impsoe a false message upon the Hebrew scriptures—a message neither God nor the human authors intended.

In the Book of Danile, the “angel of the Lord” protects the 3 men.  Jesus deos NOT appear in the Book fo Daniel.  If you think , you are misinterpreting what you are reading. 

Casting Crowns,

Not only have you misunderstaood Daniel 3:25, you hav totally misquoted it.  From the New American Bible (the RC Bible found on the US Conference of Catholic Bishops webisite): “Azariah* stood up in the midst of the fire and prayed aloud”  That is Daniel 3:25.  Azariah is the other name of Abednego.

Also, in the whole incident of the “fiery furnance”  there is NO mention of ” and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God”.  In the furnace with the me was the “angel of the Lord” who made a cool breeze flow through the furnance. 

I think you are making stuff up in the hopes I will be gullible enough to fall for it.  But you are completely incorrect in you quoting of Scripture and you are completely incorrect in your understanding of it.

Its a shame that as Christain you are so ignorant of scripture that you ahve to make things up.  I urge you to read the Book of Daniel (becaue it seems you have not read it), but are just making stuff up.

@Lisa Kaiser:  I am pleased you are happy with your own personal Torah interpretive.  Paul (one of your own people) wrote Jesus of Nazareth would forever become a “stumbling block” for the Jew (including Lisa Kaiser) while through the line of Abraham that salvation is offered to Gentiles.
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That Christians (in your view) are so ignorant, misguided and flat out wrong about Jesus, we have thus lost nothing in eternity.  On the other hand, if you (Lisa Kaiser) are wrong, you have lost your eternal salvation because of your rejection of Yeshua.  Either Jesus told the truth or He was a liar.  It’s one thing to have never heard the truth.  It yet another to have heard truth and dismissed it as folly and (in your words) “making stuff up” to suit your comfort zone. 
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We who follow Christ accept His statement as truth that “No man comes to the Father but by me.”  May you find your way as pleasant.

Casting Crowns,

My interpretation of Torah is the interpretation given Torah (the book given to Jews by God) by 4,500 yrs of Judaism. 

Saul became Paul when he abandoned Judaims and put a false spin to his tradition in order to make Jesus fit into his (Paul’s) fictional defintion of messaih.

No, Jews area chosen people of God. We have “lost” nothing.  God has eternally given us God’s grace and love.  The Covenant of Love that God has with us Jews is ongoing, unbroken and valid.  Whatever Christains may think about that is irrelevant and has no impact on God or on Jews.

You keep talking about Jesus as a liar.  But I give your Jesus as way out—the writers of the Gospels made up the things attributed to Jesus re Jesus as messiah or God.  The historical Jesus probably never said any of those things.  Those quotes were made up the authors of the gospels (writing long after Jesus’ death) in order to convince the gullible, the depsararate and the those ignorant of Judaism.  But if you want to go with Jesus as liar—OK.  That’s fine.  That’s no problem for Jews.  Its commpletely irrelevant to us as to how Christians think about Jesus.

The truth is NOT the NT.  And it is you who is making stuff up—see your made up quotation from the Book of Daniel above. 

The way of Judaism is very pleasent—becasue it s a tradition that treats people as adults.  No central authority impsing dogma on us, we are not required to abdicate our minds to some central hierarchy.  We are Israel—the God-wrestlers.  We are in a mutual relationship and partnership w/God.

Beleive ehat you want but do not be so arrogant as to think Jews are not beleoved of God and that Christianity is the only valid Abrahamic tradition.  It is not.

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“God has eternally given us God’s grace and love.”]  God has indeed kept offering you this.  Your history, though, is one largely of ingratitude going all the way back to Exodus.  Most all Jews have never accepted the gift and view it more as a pride of entitlement.

Casting Crowns:

What an insulting and totally ant-Semetic thing to say.  Also, its a comment NOT based on any fact—just your weird, bizarre, bigoted opinion.

You obvioulsy know nothing of Jews or Judaism.  You show yourself to be ignorant.

@Lisa Kaiser:  The comment is not anti-Semetic.  You’re not going to get away with such an incendiary remark.  You said you accept the Torah as a factual document of the history of the Jewish people.
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All the major prophets pleaded with Israel to little avail.  Isaiah, Jeremiah, Malachi, et al.  Repeatedly, Israel has long history in the Torah of turning away from God.  That is a historical fact not written by Gentiles but by the prophets of Israel compiled in the Torah.

Casting Crowns,

Yes, are are being anti-Semitic. You just genralized about all Jew.  Called us all ungrateful and not accepting of God’s Torah.  You accused us all of the sin of pride. You made genral sweeping comments about people and a faith tradition of which you are obviously ignorant.  And you are deliberately misstating what I said about Torah.  What I said about Torah is that I do NOT read it as history or science.  I do NOT read it literally.  Please review my comments above about that.

The message of Torah is universal.  ALL people turn away from God, becuase ALL people are imperfect, sinful.  The issue is that God forgives, God is interested in realtionship.  for the Jews that realtionships has lasted 4,500 yrs

Are you saying that Christians do not have a long hsitory of turning away from God?  That only Jews are imperfect and sinful??  That Christians are NOT imperfect and sinful?  You think Christians ae doing a good job in living out the message of the Torah conveyed by Jesus????

So again, yes your comment wast truly truly anti-Semetic, bigoted, not based in fact and truly bizarre.  Own your prejudice—its all too apparent anyway.

@Lisa Kaiser:  No, not all Jewish people.  What did the people do to the prophets (whom you claim are prophets?).  Israel (at large) failed to listen to their own prophets and did away with them.  Later generations of the Jewish people acknowledged them as prophets both major and minor.
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Whether Lisa Kaiser prefers to read the Torah as accurate Jewish history (or not) is your own affair.  Many orthodox Jews do.  The message of the Torah was never viewed at the time as a universal message which included Gentiles since Gentiles were not God’s chosen people.  You betray your own argument with that statement.
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The issue is not how Christian (Gentiles) often turn from God.  Indeed they do.  Christianity is about forgiveness of sin, but it doesn’t mean Christianity offers a free pass for sin.  Sin still has consequences men and women have to deal with.  The conversation is about the Jewish people.  And I am not defending how good a job Christian people do in living out the message of the Torah conveyed by Jesus.  I am not responsible for others and of what concern is this since you do not accept Jesus as Messiah anyway.  That dog won’t hunt.
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It’s interesting the way you enjoy twisting the argument.  Clearly now we see you don’t even accept the Torah in it’s fullness as did many Jews who came to faith in Jesus (then) and even down through the ages to the present. 
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Moreover, you wish to claim immunity from any criticism which fails to meet your own personal Torah interpretation by calling people anti-Semetic.  Sorry, I’m not buying that.  It’s your own bigotry which is bizarre.

Casting Crown,

The Jew did not “do away” with the prophets.  Of course Jews listen to the prophets—the writings of the prophets are aprt of Hebrew wcripture.

What do you mean by accepting Torah in tis “fullness”??.  I accept it as the message of God to the Jewish people, to the children of Jacob (who became know as Israel—God-wrestler). I accept it as the beginning of the 4,500 yr and still ongoing relationship between God and Jews.  e hallmark of Jews and Judaism is this wrestling, the ability to question everything in our wcripture and to question God.

You want to impose your own distorted and innacurate meanining and message upon Judaism and upon Torah.  If you want to serioulsy talk about Torah, Hebrew scripture and Judaism—you have to do it with through the lens of Judaism.  Otherwise your interpretation is just plain wrong.  You cannot impose the message of Christianity upon Judiasm and our scripture.  Our tradition is as valid as yours. 

The interpretation of Torah that I reflect is NOT my interpretation, but the interpretation of of 4,500 yrs of Jewish tradition, thought, theology, and God-wrestling.  And this what you seem not understand. 

You just want to keep trying to impose “christianity”—Paul’s fiction, Paul’s distortion of Judaism—upon the real Judaism.

Not being Jewish and obvioulsy being ignorant of Jews, Jewish scripture and Judaism, your comments are invalid, carry no weight.  You are jsut resorting to bigotrya nd anti-Semeitism.

@Lisa Kaiser:  [“I accept it (the Torah) as the message of God to the Jewish people.” 
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You are trapping yourself.  Earlier you wrote:  [“The message of Torah is universal.”]  So that includes Gentiles?
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Now you write:  [“I accept it (the Torah) as the message of God to the Jewish people, to the children of Jacob.”
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Make up your mind.  You can’t have it both ways.  Gentiles are not children of Jacob.

Casting Crowns,

It seems you have a hard time with the of “universal message”.  So I will try to convey this so you understand.  I am NOT talking about Torah as scripture (which yes, is the scripture of Judaism, but it has also been appropriated into Christian scripture by Christians—check your Bible if you do not believe this).  What I am saying is that human behavior, human nature seem to be unchanging.  As human beings, we are imperfect, sinful, flawed.  We abuse the free will that God has given us.  We are not like the angels.  We human beings are all too often greedy, envious, murderous, violent, abusive, vain, proud, arrogant, et, etc, etc. 

If you read the Torah, you will see all of imperfect human nature on full display in the various narratives of Genesis, Exodus, etc.  The struggles of the men women, of the siblings/families, of the neighbors and nations of the Torah are still the struggles of all of us today.  That is what I mean by universal and course, timeless.

The silver lining is God still wants a relationship with all of us—not just “christians”.  God wants a relationship with us as Jews, as Christians, as Mulsims, as Buddhists, as Hindus, as Sikhs, as as whatever.

Lisa Kaiser writes:  [“The Jews did not “do away” with the prophets.”]
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Habakkuk was stoned to death by the people.
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Jeremiah was stoned to death by the people.
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Ezekiel was slain by the people.
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Zechariah was slain by King Joash.
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Ahaziah was killed with his own staff.
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Amos was tortured first and later killed with his own staff.
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Jonah had to flee the land for fear of his own people.
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Had enough, or need I continue?

Casting Crowns,

You are either a shamelss liar or just plain ignorant.  Youare totally incorrect about the deaths of all the prophets you named above.  Here is the truth about these lies/stories your trying to fool people with:

Jeremiah: on the webiste of the Us Conference of Catholic Bishops you will find the New American Bible.  Here is what the introduction to the Book of Jeremiah says:  Jeremiah was forced into Egyptian exile.  ” We do not know the details of his death”.

Habakkuk:  There is absolutely no information as hsi death—it is lost to history.  NO evidence that he was stoned to death by anyone.

Ezekiel:  his death is lost to history.  NO evidence that he was slain by anyone.

Zecheriah: his death is lsot to history.  The reference in the gosple of matthew does not refer tot he prophet Zecheriah, but to an earlier perosn Zecheriah ben Jehoiada

Ahaziah:  He was NOT even a prophet.  He was the some of Ahab, a king, a very wicked man

Amos: his death is lost to history.  No evidence that he was tortured or killed by anyone.

Jonah:  Even your psot above admits he was not kiiled by anyone.

You made up stuff about the Book of Danile and now you are making up stuff/lying about the Hebrew prophets.  You do know that your lies can easily be exposed, right????

Casting Crowns,

Your motives for actively lying about scripture seem weird—you want to prove something that cannot be proven.  So you seem to feel free just to lie, to make stuff up.  that is very very sad—pathethic really.

@Lisa Kaiser:  How convenient their deaths are “lost to history.”  They are not.  You are foolish.  Jewish scholarship and graduate academia well documents the demise of the prophets.  As a Jew, you should know better about the history of your people by going back to college.  You may be a cultural Jew, a fallen away Catholic or are not really Jewish at all.  Having previously written that Jesus is some fictionalized character, your convoluted posts have exposed you and suggest you may be an ardent atheist simply looking for fun and attention.

Casting Crowns,

Again you are wrong on all counts:

Yes, the death of the prophets are lost to history.  the stuff said about their death IS stuff you are making up.  Please do some reading of reputable scholars and historians.  You have been caught laying about scripture and its sad and pathethic.

I am NOT a cultural Jew.  I am a religious Jew, active in the worship life of my synagogue, active in Torah study, active on my synagogue board, active in the community life of my synagogue.

I did NOT say that Jesus was fictional—again you deliberately misstate my comments or fail to understand them.  Please reread my comments above.  I think Jesus was an actual person, an excellent rabbi, who preached the Torah in a compelling way to the people of his time and place.  What IS fictional is the stuff the writers of the gospels put in his mouth about being God and/or messiah.  The writers of the gospels were putting words in Jesus’ mouth to persude their intended audiences (Gentiles and gullible illiterate Jews) that Jesus was something he was not.