Are there twin Mark Sheas? This latest rant is so far away from your quality journalistic endeavours that it is the only reality i.e. twins that could account for same! When Mark #1 writes in a reflective manner on scripture or the key components of Catholicism,or those beliefs that strengthen our daily journey and involvement in the public square, everyone benefits but when Mark#2 reacts to the petty and “far out” bloggers et. al. the we are reudced to reading material that is similar to other ‘blahgs’ on various sites which may cover different topics but use the same ‘style’ or ranting rhetoric and only serve to bring despair to those who have to read them. Send Mark #2 on an extended vacation, please.

I’m not reacting to any bloggers.  I’m responding to headlines and the general craziness thereof.

Really!!! Donald Trump, wingnut as you label him, represents the thinking of the entire Conservative movement???????? You have got to see this as one broad sweeping and unjust generalization….compatible with your political views perhaps as a “lefty” but hardly a factual statement! Again Mark it would make more sense for your rants to be in the NYT or the Washington Post than a Catholic website. Mixing the poltical beliefs of the liberal left with those of the Catholic faith does not make a convincing mix! Try though you may!

You do seem rather cranky lately. The Catholic Church could use the talent of quality journalists in this Time of confusion and chaos we are living in. Could you please, “snap out of it”?

Donald Trump, wingnut as you label him, represents the thinking of the entire Conservative movement????????

No.  But his poll numbers are not insignificant on the Right (he currently leads the pack).  And the wingnut birther book by Jerome Corsi just shot to number 1 on Amazon last week.  It is not “liberal left” to state that birtherism is nutty, nor is it unCatholic to say so.  The fact that you automatically assume that criticism of birther conspiracy theories is somehow both “lefty” and unCatholic demonstrates the unhealthy way in which the pop tropes of the Right are taken as somehow synonymous with Catholic faith.  One can be a perfectly faithful Catholic *and* a conservative and regard the whole birther thing as a ridiculous farce. To paraphrase a recent comment, “Mixing the poltical beliefs of the wingnut Right with those of the Catholic faith does not make a convincing mix! Try though you may.”

Nancy:

My apologies for sounding cranky.  T’weren’t my intention.  I think “Trust in Jesus and not in the princes of this world” is a Catholic sentiment and very much in keeping with the celebration of the day Jesus made a spectacle of both Roman and Sanhedrin political authorities.  I don’t see that much has changed when it comes to the kingdoms of this world vs. the kingdom of Christ.

“One can be a perfectly faithful Catholic *and* a consrvative and regard the whole birthr thing a ridiculous farce”?

Mark…perhaps then you would like to re-write the third paragraph of
your blog for you are saying something quite different there! As for polls if they had been around when the psalmists were proclaiming their wisdom then in addition to admonishing us not to put our trust in princes and kings and leaders of this world, they surely would have added polls to the list!
But if you are going to cite polls it would be a good idea to give the source and identity of your poll. Most reflect a bias…as do most of your blogs regarding the political.

Mark…perhaps then you would like to re-write the third paragraph of
your blog for you are saying something quite different there!

No.  I’m not.  I’m saying that it is absurd that this ridiculous issue continues to have such traction on the Right.  Which, you know, it does.  That’s why the ridiculous Corsi book is at #1 on Amazon and why Trump is blathering about it.  I never said all conservatives believe the nonsense, but a significant portion do.

What’s fascinating is how hypersensitive the response is to birther nuttery, while the rest of the post (which largely focuses on the absurdities of the Dems) goes unnoticed.  One gets the impression that any criticism of wingnuts on the right gets recorded as “bias” while criticism of the Left simply doesn’t matter since that supposed to be normal.  Result: if you note the birtherism is nutty, you somehow are a leftist and unCatholic.

Cuz what could be more Catholic than a nutty birther conspiracy theory?

Where the heck is his long form birth certificate? I consider myself a “birther” until proven wrong.

I am aware of the newspaper thing and his short form, but I will not believe until he shows a long form.

Mark, do not dare to say Our Blessed Mother is not appearing… have fear of the Lord and in humility be silent and obiendient to our Mother Church.
We will pray for your conversion so that from instrument of satan you will be an instrument of Christ.

Message of February 25, 2010
Dear children! In this time of grace, when nature also prepares to give the most beautiful colors of the year, I call you, little children, to open your hearts to God the Creator for Him to transform and mould you in His image, so that all the good which has fallen asleep in your hearts may awaken to a new life and a longing towards eternity. Thank you for having responded to my call.

Wow.  Doubt Medjugorje and you are an “instrument of Satan”!

Oh well.  Mary is, nonetheless, not appearing at Medjugorje.  If she wants to correct me on that, I’m all ears.

But she won’t.  Cuz she’s not.

I was with you all the way until that crack about Garabandal and Area 51. Dude, don’t come to ME looking for blessed candles for the 3-Days-o’-Darkness! My stash is for certified Truly True Believers only! Oh, and nobody believes the alien bodies are still at Area 51 anymore. They moved them when they needed the cryogenic storage unit for JFK’s body. (His brain, of course, is in a different location where it is hooked up to advanced space-age medical equipment until it attains super-maximum strength. Even now, though, if you put a spoon within 50 feet of the brain, it will automatically bend double.) I am SO over you! Just sayin’. Thank you. That is all.

This whole “birther biz’ could be very simply solved and made to go away
if Obama would just produce a birth certificate. Either he can’t or won’t
or as in the case of his academic record prefers to keep it secret. That
is what has set this whole controversy into motion. He could solve it but won’t because in the opinion of many he would rather the 2012 elections be focused on such silliness instead of his indefensible record. To get married, apply for driver’s license, and much other legal business one has to produce a birth certificate. Surely by the time he became a candidate for the highest office in the land Obama must have been asked to produce a birth certificate….an article in the newspaper, or a live birth announcement would not be acceptable in any of these matters. Obama has created this smokescreen surrounding his birth for political advantage. I agree with one thing you said….it is nutty!! As are most politics!

This whole “birther biz’ could be very simply solved and made to go awayif Obama would just produce a birth certificate.

He has.  However, birther nuts with a fetish for “long forms” have decided that what is satisfactory for everybody else is not satisfactory for them.  Result: Obama gets a windfall as a growing number of kooks on the Right embrace birther craziness and make him look sane and themselves like the conspiracy theory nuts they are.  As a seasoned pol, he understands a basic principle of politics that birther nuts still do not grasp:  when your opponent is destroying himself, don’t stop him.  Birther nuts are some of the best friends of the Obama 2012 campaign.

Why does this blog entry shock anyone? Mark loves stirring the pot.  He’s a real mixer, as Paul’s grandfather was described in A Hard Day’s Night. He takes aim at Trump and the buckshot hits any conservative standing within 100 yards of the man.

He takes aim at Trump and the buckshot hits any conservative standing within 100 yards of the man.

Rubbish.  I take aim at Birther nuts and, shazam!, Birther nuts appear and try to defend Birther nuttery.  If you are not a Birther nut it’s very simple to deal with, George: you simply say “It’s dumb to believe Obama was not born in Hawaii and these people need to stop saying this dumb stuff”.  It was (as I make clear in the blog entry) exactly the same with the kooks on the Left who were convinced that Bush engineered 9/11.  Non-crazy lefties just needed to say, “Those people are crazy”.  Instead, large percentages of them came out of the woodwork to defend the craziness, much as Birther nuts are defending that craziness.  Instead of complaining about me rejecting craziness, why not complain about the birther kooks who are, at present, propping up the ridiculous candidacy of Birther Nut (or, more likely, Birther Nut exploiter) Donald Trump?

“He has”???? (meaning produced a birth certificate) NO!HE HAS NOT!!!
The Hawaiian authorities have released a Live Birth notice which is NOT
the same thing. You just try it next time you are asked to produce a BIRTH CERTITICATE!! Again, this is just “camouflage” Obama encourages so
he does not have to answer to his abysmal record! Anyway, Donald Trump
didn’t get to be a billionaire many times over by being nutty!! Who knows?what is in his mind…frankly I don’t care as he will not be the Republican candidate. The only reason he seems to be making a splash is that there is no one else being taken seriously or can claim the headlines as he is with his outrageous-ness! That’s the Donald!! and you have fallen for it!! Let’s get back to discussing the faith! That is eternal…politics merely a stop-gap on the journey!! if you allow it to be!

Wow, I’m wondering if the National Catholic Register has an administrator who previews what is posted by its bloggers or if we are to believe the truth as presented by Shea is endorsed by the National Catholic Register.  If the issue is important to Shea, it’s important.  If the issue is a waste of time or thought, according to Shea, it’s nuts to pursue it.  Shea is judge and jury over all truth, and if you do not consent to the truth according to Shea, no reason for any introspective argument, you are simply nuts.

Thirst:

Great idea!  I’ll write a post comparing and contrasting the news of this world with the eternal good news of the gospel….

Oh.  Wait.  I just did and people ignored that in order to flip about about birther nut stuff.

Cathy:

There’s this concept called “free speech”.  When I write a blog entry I am giving my opinion, not the opinion of the National Catholic Register.  If readers want to hold some other opinion, such as the nutty notion that Barack Obama was not born in the US, they are free to.  And I am free to continue to think that that is a nutty opinion which only helps the re-election campaign of Barack Obama.

Gee, here I was thinking what a great post this was (along some others you’ve written recently), when I should have been thinking that you are some cranky leftist denier-of-the-true-Faith!

Two birthers, a Mejoid, 4 crankyish about their perception of Shea being cranky.

Je suis d’accorde. Easter morning had a bit more vitality.

Mark, whether Barack Obama is a natural born citizen is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of law.  For the record, I would never vote for Trump, Romney or quite likely any candidate that the Republican party would put up to rule over us.  In our country we have created a ruling class for a nation based upon principles of self-government and we stand knee-deep in the consequences.  Unfortunately, SCOTUS has become the great avoider of constitutional issues based not on the merits of the case, but based upon the standing of the one who brings the case forward.  As for the constitutionality of Obamacare, well, they need a long break before they consider that one.  Yes, perhaps the issue will help Obama’s election campaign and possibly Donald Trump’s campaign, but I would consign that responsibility in regards to “the issue” lies not with the people who bring it, but the unelected government branch that will not answer or even touch the question.  We deserve what we refuse to preserve and unfortunately the only thing we desire to preserve is the thought that there is a difference between R and D on an election ballot.  I don’t see it.

Mark, whether Barack Obama is a natural born citizen is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of law.

True.  And it’s also a matter of reality since Obama was, in fact, born in Hawaii.  Noting that fact is neither “left liberal” nor unCatholic.  Nor is it somehow a vote of support for him.  It is merely engagement with reality over against the fantasies of birther conspiracy nuttery.

Isn’t anybody interested in the actual point of this article?  Is the whole thread going to be consumed by fringe nonsense about birtherism?

If you are sure he was born in Hawaii, where is the proof. Please don’t point to the Certificate Of Live Birth that does not purport to prove where he was born. The COBL just proves that the live infant was presented by at least one U.S. citizen.

Everyone point to the valid COLB; unfortunately the issuers of the document will themselves admit it does not certify birth location.
So please don’t insult unless you know what you are talking about. It is YOU who have ASSUMED that a COLB proves birth location.

Guess who the largest birther group is?
Answer:
The nation of Kenya.

Are the leaders of Kenya liars?

Whatever.

The “birther nut stuff” you refer to Mark was important enough for the framers of the Constitution to insure it was included among eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States. According to your opinion they must have all been nuts!!! In my humble opinion there
are many un-answered questions regarding Obama’s place of birth..or circumstances which he chooses to not fuly disclose to many’s dis-satisfaction ( something the Democrats would never have allowed Bush 47 to get away with w/o the constant hounding of the biased media types)
but possibly as you point out to Obama’s political advantage. I agree that
we are chasing a dead horse on this one…he holds the advantage. Let the Donald pursue if he wants/needs the publicity. Republicans have more important matters to address before the 2012 election ...which Obama is desperately trying to avoid addressing. I am glad you clarified the point of your blog…contrasting the gospel..the good news with the effervescency of the news of this world! You could have fooled me! It sounded for all the world like just another liberal, left rant. I fail to find anything particularly Catholic anywhere in it…quite the opposite!

So, Thirst, you began by denying that birther nuttery was representative of the Thing that Used to Be Conservatism and now you are making clear that you are, yourself, a birther and think we should waste time on this junk.  I can see why you would be embarrassed by it and only reluctantly want to defend it.

As I say, Obama has already defended it.  For those not suffering from Long Form Fetishes, anybody capable of reading a newspaper clipping from the Honolulu paper for August 1961 can see that the guy was born in Hawaii.  He’s not “desperate” about the nutty birther stuff.  He’s in no trouble at all over this, because he knows that the people obsessing over this only make him look sane in the reality-based community.  He’s laughing his head off at the nuts who make his campaign all the easier by working themselves into a lather about this ridiculous non-issue and thereby persuade normal people that Obama’s opponents are crazy conspiracy nuts and not to be taken seriously.  And yes, since you focused only on the birther nut comment and completely ignored the rest of what I said, Thirst, I could fool you.  But that’s only because you choose to fool yourself by obsessing over birther nut stuff and ignoring the point of what I wrote.

Mark,
Why do you insult people; Do you believe thier motives are racist?

Fred:

You are the only person to mention race.  I think birther nuttery is nuts because I believe it is crazy to look obvious and easily available public information in the eye, ignore it, and concoct elaborate conspiracy theories that tell us what our itching ears want to hear.  You can call it an “insult” if you like.  I consider it more like a diagnosis.  For the same reason, I think people who deny the moon landings, or the Holocaust, or death of Elvis are nuts.

Ivory Coast is a nightmare, Libya is a nightmare, Yemen and Syria are too.

Will the U.N. and the U.S. ignore South Sudan when covert groups from the North begin attacking?
When there is a REAL humanitarian problem such as in Ivory Coast.
Libya is a Fake humanitarian problem; staged by the U.N and the French to the detriment of the Christians in the South. Now the Northern president says “He does not have control” of the murderous gangs(muslim) that helped him.

Fred:

Not sure what you point is.  If you think I support our Nobel Peace Prize Winners experiments in Nation-Building Through Strategic Bombing in Libya, you are mistaken.

I think those people are nuts too. I also agree that the public information; The certificate of Live birth is not a forgery.
I do not believe; and I don’t think the issuers believe it proves birth location.

there is nothing inaccurate on the COBL. It is real.
Thats what I believe. I also beleive that the media is more than happy to allow people to presume it certifies birth location.

I think Libya was a mistake. In 2006 Time magazine was praising kadaffi.
He was turning away from state spon. terror.  He (Kadaffi) liked Obama.
I.M.O. we are taking sides in a civil war. Kadaffi has a lot of support and If we do get regime change, there will be a lot of Libyans that hate us.

Sooo…. Obama was born in Kenya and then flown to Hawaii by sinister Democrat time travellers who then convinced the two local papers to record his birth in Hawaii so that, decades later, their evil plan to put a foreign born Kenyan in the White House could unfold?  Is he a secret Muslim too?  And if so, how do you account for his recent confession of Jesus as Lord and savior risen from the dead?  Is there any end to the fiendish conspiracy?

Seriously, can’t we just criticize his policies without all the birther nuttery?

“sinister Democrat time travelers” Artisticaly put.
I’d say more likely “a scared teenage mother.” concerned that her baby may not receive “first world care” who, just days before, was told: “You are too pregnant to get on this plane.”

1) Obama is a U.S. Citizen.
2) Obama belongs to the religion that Obama says he belongs to.
3) The newspaper anouncement was not meant to “prove’ anything.

All three of these facts do nothing when trying to establish birth location.
If the newspaper says born in Hawaii. It would not be a surprise; consider the teenage mothers state of mind if she did not plan to give birh in Kenya but could not get back on the plane because she was too pregant.
She wants a first world benefits, first world care for her newborn. She wants the world to recogize the child as an American. What would a young girl, with the advice of her parents say in the newspaper?

Mark ...I am not a birther…never have been…would not waste my time
tilting at windmills like that…there are too many really important issues and seriously things wrong with our economy as well as the issues of healthcare, energy,et al to waste time trying to sort out the messiness
of where Obama was born. He could have been born in a cabbage patch for all I care…Just interesting that you insist on calling me a birther because I understand the Constitution has made being born in this country a requirement for legitimate presidency. You can call me all the names you feel driven to do but that does not make me one…nor does it absolve you of your Christian obligation to speak with charity! Not exactly your “hallmark” as most here have pointed out to you. I am not in a contest with you but I think you have a tendency toward using the leftist rant when trying to make a political point! Again I am not the only commenter here that notices. I am really pretty mainstream compared to your agenda. I would be nice if you could just share with us your theological insight without always inserting political opinion…in order to get readers and comments.

Thirst:

You leave open the possibility that there is something worth exploring in the birther nuttery.  What would you think of somebody who thought there was something worth exploring in the moon landing hoax nuttery?  I understand, as you do, that the Constitution says you need to be born in the US.  It would appear then that you think there is some reason to supposed Obama wasn’t.  That’s birther nuttiness.

Meanwhile, you speak of my “agenda”.  I’m curious what you think that is.  Could you give me details?  Something concrete beside vague hints?  My understanding of what I write is that I wish to hold up American culture to the light of the gospel and see how it sizes up.  You seem to think I have some other “agenda”.  So: details please?

I ended up on this interesting article because I serched google news for “Garabandal”

I was curious if there are any updates about Conchita Gonzalez Keena or Joey Lomangino.

Mark, you’re too good of a writer to stop. I enjoyed the article anyways and agree with most of what it says. Thanks for writing it.

Thank you, Fred.  Happy Easter.

This birther debate may not be “Invalid” but I am pretty sure it is “moot.”

I guess if you feel that the Prez is destroying the country, you could ask yourself: “Does God not bless the United States?” you might think: “Why does God withhold His help?” If you start to think the president does not have the best interest of the country in mind, you may ask: “How can God let this happen?” You might answer to yourself that God does not approve of the current president; that through deceptions, reverse descrimination, half truths from the media, money from unplanned parenthood all caused a system, a divinely devised system, to malfunction: To put into the office of President one whose spiritual leader for 20 years could and would say “God Da..m America.” You might see a country that builds a Mosque near ground zero, supports Muslims in Civil wars; Disarms Isreal and provides arms to Israel’s enemies. Makes you wonder.

I fear the Nation is heading towards economic colapse. I hope I am wrong.

The number one consolation for Obama being president in my opinion; Is the sheer Joy of the American’s of African descent. A Joy that I did not anticipate seeing when Obama was elected. It does please me to witness how happy African Americans were. I hope that large numbers of people who felt disenfranchised before, no longer feel that way in the future.
It is this reason, that I sometimes tell myself; It is Gods will that Obama should be president. That in the end, more people will vote; Young African Americans will value education, get involved in politics and work for a better world. I just wish Obama was more conservative; but maybe thats not what we as a nation, need right now.

I thought Mark Shea just might be an intelligent journalist until I read that he single-handedly had determined what a Vatican commission is grueling over; to determine whether or not the Virgin Mary is appearing in Medjugorje.  But in a subsequent post he admits that he only requires Mary prove it to him and he’ll reconsider.  Sort of reminds me of King Herod requesting a small miracle from Christ.

This cannot be the same Mark Shea I’ve admired over the years.

Ken, my point exactly.  I guess the Vatican can save a bunch of time and effort ... just concede to Mark’s assessment of Medjugorje.  Maybe’s he’s received a message of his own on this subject.

With all due respect Ken, if it is true that in 1981, when asked if all religions are the same, the lady at Medjugorje replied, “Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the Commandments of God. They reject and disparage them”, then we know it definitely is NOT the Blessed Mother who is appearing in Medjugorje since Our Lady knows that there is only ONE Truth of Love, and He resides in His Church, The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Nancy and Mark can simply make the ruling.  Case closed.  I’m interested if either Mark or Nancy have made a pilgrimage there?

She also said on another occasion:

“All religions are dear to my son. It is you on earth who are divided. We are all children of God. The Moslems and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics are equal before my son and me. All religions are not equal. All men are equal before God. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. It is necessary to respect and obey the commandants of God in following one’s conscience. Those who are not Catholics are no less creatures made in the image of God and destined ultimately to live in the house of God. Salvation is available to everyone without exception. Only those who refuse God deliberately are condemned by their own choice.”

She also said on another occasion: “All religions are dear to my son. It is you on earth who are divided. We are all children of God. The Moslems and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics are equal before my son and me. All religions are not equal. All men are equal before God. It does not suffice to belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. It is necessary to respect and obey the commandants of God in following one’s conscience. Those who are not Catholics are no less creatures made in the image of God and destined ultimately to live in the house of God. Salvation is available to everyone without exception. Only those who refuse God deliberately are condemned by their own choice.”

I’m a member of a tea party that meets twice a month, not one speaker has ever mentioned the birther issue, what’s disscussed is the damage this administration is doing to our country. I think it’s those on the left, which is where I’d put Mark because of things he’s written the last couple years that keep bringing this issue up, go back and look at the Donald Trump interviews, it’s often the first question he’s asked because they know he feels about it but I think he’s been trying to get away from it but the media won’t let him.  I think Obama’s playing politics with this issue , as he does with everything, he’ll show his bith certificate right before the next election….........

The sad truth is—regardless of whether Obama is indeed a U.S. Citizen or not—he is playing “birthers” like a fiddle.  I am certain that he is a U.S. Citizen and he is driving people crazy with this issue.  I remember the ridiculous controversy that plagued John McCain for a time since he was born in Panama, which was trumpeted by the MSM.  Now when there is an obfuscation perpetrated on the public by the Obama administration and the MSM it has driven many people over the edge, just as I’m cynically sure, was intended.

Obama was born in Hawaii unless Dr. Fukino’s testimony can be impeached.
I see no reason why this republican would lie. Without addressing this, the debate must end.
The biggest problem of all, is that the Government thinks taxpayers do not have “standing” when challenging the government on anything:  This is tantamount to “taxation without representation.” All taxpayers should be able to see the vital statistics of the president since the constitution comments on its relevance. Taxpayers have standing.

To say that all persons are dear to my Son, is not to say that all religions are dear to my Son, for certainly Our Lady would never deny the truth of God’s Commandments from the beginning including God’s Commandment regarding the worship of false idols.

What it seems that some are forgetting is that Holy Mother Church does not require that any of us believe in any Marian apparitions including Fatima, Lourdes, Guadeloupe, etc., all of which have been approved by the Church as containing no error and worthy of believe, but not necessary to Catholic faith.

It is possible therefore, for someone to say that The Blessed Virgin did not appear at Fatima, insofar as by saying so they mean that they do not believe it.  Even more so, it is quite possible for any good and faithful Catholic to say, without any qualification, that she did not appear at any place or time that, to this date, the Church has not approved.  Any Vatican commission about any particular claim of a Marian apparition could respond in the negative.  Until they say otherwise, “there was no Marian apparition” is legitimate and acceptable language for any faithful Catholic.  Period.

True.  And this is a fortiori true when, as in the case of Medjugorje, no Vatican investigation will ever—ever—conclude that Mary has appeared there.

Because she hasn’t appeared in Medjugore.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I can’t say with the same certainty that Mary has appeared in Medjugorje (although I believe she has).  But humility should also entice you to state the opposite.

“And this is a fortiori true when, as in the case of Medjugorje, no Vatican investigation will ever—ever—conclude that Mary has appeared there.”

That is something I do not say, simply because I have not investigated the claims, and have exactly zero interest in doing so.  Perhaps I might, once I have finished all of public Divine Revelation, the entirety of Magisterial Teaching, the theology of all of the Doctors of the Church and then moved on to some of the approved private revelations.  But I am not a particularly fast reader, so it is quite possible that my own particular judgment might come to me before I get to it.  And by then, it likely won’t matter to me any more.

In the meantime I will leave it up to those in the Church charged with the responsibility and more power to them.

To LJ:  Your comment; “Any Vatican commission about any particular claim of a Marian apparition could respond in the negative.  Until they say otherwise, “there was no Marian apparition” is legitimate and acceptable language for any faithful Catholic.  Period.” suggests that unless the Church proclaims a Truth, it is not a Truth.  Although the Church wisely takes her time in carefully considering alleged apparitions, that certainly does not mean they are false until pronounced otherwise.  Your subsequent post shows a bit more wisdom in saying that you will “leave it up to those in the Church charged with the responsibility…”

Perhaps Ken, you missed the first part.  The Church does not even require us to believe in the apparitions she has approved.  They all fall under the heading of “private revelation.”  I would say in that case that I could not categorically state for everyone that a Marian apparition did not happen, because those whose responsibility it is to make that determination have affirmed that it happened.  But as a faithful Catholic, I am not required personally to put any time or faith in that particular private revelation.  Is that wise?  Probably not.  Even so, the Church’s authority to bind and loose through the office of Peter has not bound my conscience to place faith in any of those private revelations.

As to those not approved, then I can go one step further.  I can make the statement that a Marian apparition did not occur, in good conscience to anyone, anywhere who wants to hear it.  If at some point the Church determines that I was wrong about that, I am more than happy to defer to the Church’s judgment.  I only hope that those who have invested time and faith in any event or ongoing phenomena are equally willing to admit their error when the Church definitively states that there was no Marian apparition.

As to the case in point, Medjugorje, I have not investigated the phenomena or the ongoing statements attributed by some to the Blessed Virgin Mary, so I will not make the categorical statement that Mark Shea makes (that it will never be approved by the Church), although I trust his judgment to know the criteria on which the Church makes her determination and that he is able to apply it to the public record of Medjugorje on its face value.  I might even make the statement myself if I had the information he has, but at this point I will not seek it out.  As you noted, I will let others do that, whose job it is to do so.

And perhaps Ken, you also missed the point of my perhaps too subtle reminder of the vast content of the Divine Revelation that is available to us.  I only wish that folks would invest half as much energy and excitement in the great wonders of grace in the public revelation that is there for all of us in Scripture and Church teaching, as they do chasing after “new” revelations or prophecies, when we know sight unseen, that anything “new” is not of God because that is one of the first criterion the Church applies to anything; does it conform to that established public revelation.  So if we are not going to hear anything new anyway that is of God, perhaps we might spend some more time on what he has already revealed.  Just a thought.

It sort of reminds me of particular Protestants who chase after every new theory about the end times and the day when Christ will return.  He already told us that we are not to know that, but they keep speculating and getting all wound up anyway.

I love it when you stir the pot like this, Mark. It brings out hilarious people. You nailed, birthers and Medjugorje fanatics in one post. What? No room for The Great Pants Debate?

Also, you obviously hate traditionalists and all things Catholic. You love when the bee stings. And you’re just so…so…mean.

I wonder how many people will continue defending birther nuttery in light of this.  I suspect there will remain a significant percentage of people for whom no evidence will ever suffice to prove that Obama was born in the US.  It’s like the lefty nuts who will believe till the day they die that Bush was the mastermind genius who engineered 9/11 (and yet who also mysteriously believe that he is incurably stupid).

Lunacy needs no evidence.  It believes what it wants no matter the evidence.

Mark:  I certainly hope that the “birther nuttery” will stop, but I doubt it will.  Every movement has its nut jobs.  I would argue that the left (per capita) has more nutters, but that is a mere opinion not backed up by any real evidence.  The spokesman for Obama over did it with belittling reporters concerning the release of the “long form”—more reporters saw for it what I’m sure it was (i.e., a means of allowing opponents of team Obama to destroy themselves).

With that behind us,  I am curious as to whether you are mischievously pushing other people buttons on purpose for your own amusement (or as a “teaching moment”) or whether you are just a victim (like myself) of the electronic equivalent of Foot-In-Mouth disease.

Hi LJ,
I’m not contesting your statement that the Church does not require that we believe in private revelation, including Fatima and Lourdes for example.  However, that does not mean that you may claim approved, or as yet unapproved apparitions are false.

Yes, there is a great wealth of spiritual bounty in the Church, the Bible, the lives of the saints etc.  And the path to salvation is available to all through these means.  But God has chosen to use Mary as a special tool (certainly, at least, as the Mother of Jesus) and so I believe it is inappropriate to prematurely dismiss the possibility that He is still using her.

Of course you may state “an opinion”, providing it is identified as an opinion.  But be careful of “relativism” where your truth is defined by personal beliefs.

Mark,
It looks like the Birther debate is over.
The long form is out! Looks like Hawaii has produced its first President!
I plan never to consider it again…
Now on to the economy! Where are those green jobs. I don’t think there is a future in U.S. Labor, unless that labor cannot be moved; I.E. Auto Mechanics, Hands on Nurses, Food Prep. Manufacturing can be done anywhere and history shows us that it will not be done here if it can be avoided.
Teachers, ok, Firefighters and Police, ok, Truck Drivers, ok.
Question: Are unions that provide a “public” service extorting taxpayers?

Firefighters: We need a fair wage or you will have increased dangers.
Police: We need a fair wage or there will be crime in the streets.
Teachers: We need a fair wage or you children will be dumb.
Public Works: We need a fair wage for these dangerous bridges and roads.
Correction facility workers: we need a fair wage or we cannot house these criminals.

Nurses: These patient to nurse ratios are dangerous putting patients at risk.
Doctors: We need a fair wage because of office expenses.

Poor jounalists like Mark; they have nothing to “threaten” taxpayers with.

Mark,
You are going to be poor because of all the demands by those who provide you with some kind of service. Insurance premiums are like taxes (a pool of money for the general use.) by Law; 85% of premiums must go to health care provisions; I wonder if 85% of our taxes go to direct tangible benefits of the taxpayer.

Actually, that 85% at least; many insurance companies are more efficient than that. (NOTE: this is true no matter how greedy execs might be; and how the media publicizes pay. Ironically some of these charities and televangelists are worse.)

Mark,
Its been 3 days, It took Christ only 3 days to rebuild a temple; Where’s your next article?

It will be up on Monday.  I’m not posting today or Friday.  The normal cycle will resume next week.

Are you absolutely sure about Our Lady not appearing at Medjugorje?

Yes.  Though if it turns out I’m wrong (which I won’t be), then I’ll submit to the judgement of the Church.

It just that I’m, you know, not wrong about this.

I too yield to the judgment of the Church.  It’s just that I’d hate to think that all those conversions were the result of “simultaneous hyperactive imagination disorder in children,” or something freudian like that.  You also have to admit that the visions - whatever it is - have been pretty persistent, occuring to several people daily for 30 years now.  I wish our bishops would show the same measure of tenacity when recommending Mass, confession, praying the Rosay, reading the Bible, and fasting for world peace and conversions.

HA!  Well thanks Mark.  I sense you’re beginning to feel a bit of uncertainty about Medjugorje.  All apparitions have had their skeptics, so you’re in good company.  And as I mentioned earlier, the Church does not require that you believe in even the approved apparitions.  But I’m tempted to subscribe to the NCR just so that I can watch you eat crow when the time comes.  Sadly, we still have a long wait (10 years and 16 days in my opinion.)  At that time, I really expect Protestants and others to covert in droves, but alas, I’m afraid that many staunchly conservative Catholics will abandon their faith.  (Incidentally, I’m a staunchly conservative Catholic.)
PS - Isn’t great that Trump forced Obama to publish his birth certificate?

No, Ken.  I’m not feeling any uncertainty about Medjugorje, merely issuing the standard issue disclaimer that I do not elevate my opinions over those of the Church.  I am completely confident, in this case, that the Church will not acknowledge that Medjugorje is authentic.  Because it’s not.

As to the lunacy of birther nuts, calling today’s events a victory for birther nuts is yet more lunacy, sort of like seeing in Donald Trump a serious candidate for the Presidency and not a rich man who is playing birther nuts like a fiddle.  However, if you believe Mary is appearing at Medjugorje, I suppose you can believe anything.

Well yes, I certainly have a deep faith…

I’m glad to see that you’ll defer judgment about Medjugorje, subject to the decision of the Church.  And I’ve come to learn that you mix your opinions with facts without discrimination.  So I believe I understand what you’re saying now.

As for the Donald, he’s an interesting sideshow, but we pro-life folks need to find someone who can defeat B.O.

I suppose it’s difficult for a rationalistic person (or one who rationalizes everything, looking for political/social/economic motivations behind every act) to countenance an apparition.  This has probably been true of every appearance of Our Lady historically.  The singular manifestation of all these apparitions is her amazing beauty.  And the reflection of that beauty in the faces and lives of all who see.  But rationalism is blind to all that.  There is no ulterior motivation which can serve to support it.  Only the generous and omnipotent love of God, which has no explanation.  To rationalists, Medjugorje is “Our Lady of Hard Currency,” as the communist authorities used to say.  But their endless words are useless in making adherents, as time has shown.  What is needed is the love that Our Lady indefatigably exudes.

So, let me get this straight: Paul McCartney is not dead?

The Vatican Commission studying Medjugorje will decide with one of three decisions:
1) constat de supernaturalitate (worthy of belief) - extremely unlikely while the apparitions continue;
2) constat de non supernaturalitate (condemned) - also unlikely in my opinion;
3) non constat de supernaturalitate - (cannot be determined) - almost certainly the decision that we can expect if the apparitions are ongoing.  However, critics will likely confuse #2 and #3, saying that it has not been approved.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm

Well, now Mark you must feel a bit chagrined at having called the birthers “nutty”...it seems the NUT in the White House has been behind all this brouhaha from day one…Obama could ( and should ) have ended this silliness by producing the document released today right at the beginning…and gotten it out of the way so the more serious issues could be addressed. Of course today he admitted as much ..and said that this ( the issuing of his birth certificate)should end the silliness and allow him to get on with the serious issues this nation is facing. After which he hopped his “magic carpet” (better known to us as Air Force One) with Michelle and headed out to Chi-town to chat with his old friend Oprah! Now you tell me who is NUTS!! Business ala Obama style…per usual!!!

Yes.  What a shaming defeat for people who have listened to common sense and accepted long ago that Obama was born in the US to have it demonstrated, yet again, that Obama was born in the US.  What were we thinking?  Birther nuts have certainly been vindicated by having it demonstrated yet against that they were nuts to insist he was not.  I am wriggling in the crushing grip of your logic, Thirst.

“But be careful of “relativism” where your truth is defined by personal beliefs.” 
Thanks Ken, for the advice, but I think that if I stick with Public Revelation and Church teaching for now I should be on solid ground.  In fact, I was raised in an Evangelical Protestant environment which I found to be what you mention, based on opinion, the opinion of the pastor in conformity with that particular branch of opinion within the larger spectrum of non-Catholic Christians.  It was the Catholic Church that offered me what I was looking for; authenticity, the authority of Christ to teach definitively, backed by the Holy Spirit.
***
You are right Mark, on the “birther” conspiracy mania in the face of reason.  I had someone breathlessly tell me today that they looked at the long form online and noticed that the photocopy looked like an overlay of another document or something like that.  The drift of it was that obviously it was concocted or doctored to fool the average person.  I just shook my head, speechless.  What do you say to someone like that?  Don’t forget to take your meds?
And wasn’t Trump transparent as he couldn’t wait to climb out of his helicopter and take a bow.  This is all about Trump.  The sad thing is that it would be nice to have an actual conservative leader who could play the media the way Trump does.  It is a great side-show at this point (one thing I agree with the President about) but if Trump is allowed to suck all the oxygen out of the room for very long, he will make it more difficult for serious conservative candidates.  Perhaps if they borrowed some of his tactics to make the MSM look silly and obviously partisan they might leave him in the dust early.

Mark…don’t worry..it isn’t usually fatal! Liberals have built up a pretty strong immunity to truth over the years..and are protected against it by their own myopic vision. You seem blessed with the same strength of the inane sense of nuttiness as the birthers! It is interesting that the Donald forced your Tin-God Obama to do the right thing finally and settle this issue….so you all can get to the more serious stuff! Can’t wait to see what you crazies have up your sleeve next…Good luck and God bless
you as you continue to present the “serious issues” of our faith in the real world. Go get ‘em!!!

“Now all the rulers of this world, no matter what their schemes, are destined to bend the knee to him in his glorious humility on That Day.”

May that day come soon, Lord Jesus!

I have been following Obama’s “birth certificate” issue for over two years. Out of curiosity I attended a hearing back in October 2009 at the Ronald Reagan Federal Court Buiding in Santa Ana, California.
Many posters here are not aware of this bit of information posted at the link below,that has come out since Obama released his “birth certificate” last week. People who bash “birthers” might regret it. I am almost positive there will be more information to come out real soon.

http://thedailypen.blogspot.com/2011/04/out-of-order-obamas-non-sequential.html

The birther issue was just a smokescreen encouraged by the Obama White House to “cloud” the real issues this country so needs to address before it goes down the rat-hole completely. Now they have replaced the birther issue with the OBL killing ...and now they will milk that politically speaking for all it is worth. With of course the media cooperation. Today we will have nothing on the news again (since Sunday this has been going on)with the talk being only about Obama going to GRound Zero and then all day tomorrow the media will be showing Obama at Ground Zero..and then the next day it will be all about Obama having been at Ground Zero. On and on it goes while nothing of significance is being done about or talked about e.g. the debt ceiling crisis, the gas crisis, the economic crisis, the 3 on-going wars crisis, etc etc. It is the media/White House version of “fiddling” while the Nation wastes away! Oh yes and on my computer this am we are being treated to Michelle’s visit to a nearby school to promote the career of Beyounce…with a video of our First Lady doing the “dougie”! Of course the end of OBL IS important news! We have all heard nothing but that since Sunday. But enough already. If they want to cool things in the streets of the Middle East this is NOT the way to do it…constant repetition of news we already know. Who really cares anymore? The villian is gone! Dead! Good riddance! But a Nation’s future hangs in the balance. In deference to the many crisis this Nation faces that are far from over (dead) let’s bury the Osama story ...and focus on resolving these most important issues. No! We cannot because the White House has found a new “birther” issue to focus the attention away from the fact they have no real answers to these very real issues. And the media which wants more than anything to re-elect this incompetent administration to another four years is cooperating with this farce! Should they show pictures of the body of Obama so that those who want to say we did not kill him are silenced? Or shall we not show the pictures in order to not inflame his Muslim supporters? This will be the question absorbing all the pols energies for the next several days if not weeks and this will be our media focus? Another “birther"issue!! for the White House to use as a smokescreen to cover up their real deficiences and ineptitude! What a farce!this bloated thing call the federal government really is..and at what costs!!

Shea writes (4/24/11), “...nor did Mary appear at Garabandal…”  That is not the judgment of the Santander bishop, Vizente Zamora. I am presently living in his diocese (and have lived here from time to time a total of some four years) and haven’t met anyone here in any position of church authority that will now communicate publicly that the reported apparitons at Garabandal are not of supernatural origin.  I should see the bishop (at Garabandal) on May 6 and would ask him his “official” position on the happenings there but he already answered me once by mail, that it isn’t certain whether the reported apparitions at Garabandal are of supernatual origin or not. It seems that Shea is imprudent to post his negative evaluation on a site that bears the name, Catholic, because readers might think he is speaking for the Chruch. He isn’t.