Definitely agree with your analysis here.  My wife and I were watching the TV last night when the news broke so I logged in to my Twitter account to see what was “trending.”  I was really sorry, but perhaps not surprised, to see the rhetoric that was being put out there, especially by Catholics.  One minute they are “tweeting” about JP II’s beatification and the next minutes they are rejoicing over the death of another human being.  One person actually asked me if there was a theological justification for being as “thrilled” as she was Bin Laden was dead. 

This was the topic of of my blog post this morning and as I anticipated, I’m receiving some push back on it. 

http://christophersapologies.blogspot.com/2011/05/bit-too-much-jubilation-for-me.html

It seems markedly un-American of me, but I am filled with mixed feelings about this turn of events. I am glad that he cannot directly hurt anyone anymore, but his death may bring about further terrorist activities that were planned for this contingency. Additionally, I am quite concerned about the government’s decision to enter into another country (without that country’s permission), perform an assasination, and then brag to the world about it. It seems to me that this type of covert assault tarnishes our American ideals that we are better than the terrorists. I would have liked to have seen him captured and tried before an international court of law before being summarily executed. I’m not against the death penalty, but it should be used in extremis only. No doubt, Osama did deserve to die for his crimes, but I feel as if America now has blood on its hands. I’m deeply conflicted over this.

Thank you Jimmy, I have been wondering if I was alone in being uncomfortable with the way in which this news is being reported. I am relieved of course that this particular threat has been eliminated but I have misgivings about the apparent glee of the president in reporting the news.
I think this spin puts Americans as a people in a bad light. My first thought on hearing the news echoed your comment, this too is a person for whom Christ died and the death of any of us, made in God’s image, is not a cause of celebration.
Let us indeed pray.

My first reaction upon hearing the news was simple astonishment—and then, a moment later, the thought flickered through my head: “May God have mercy on his soul.” Then I wondered if this prayer was justified in the case of such a heinous person as this one. After reflection, I would say it is. Jesus said to pray for our enemies, and here’s an opportunity—but no one ever said it would be easy.

Definitely agree with you, and with the Vatican. We can rejoice over the great goods that will come—the advance of world peace and hindering of global terrorism—but we shouldn’t, as Christians, rejoice over bin Laden’s death per se, and we should hope against hope for his everlasting salvation and redemption, as we hope for that of all human beings, in accordance with the universal salvific will of God. The Prophet says, “As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live.” (Ezek. 33:11) http://chrysologus.blogspot.com

Jimmy,
I had this conversation with my older kids this a.m. While it may have been very arguably ‘self-defense’ of a people for military troops, with proper authority, to seek out Bin Laden in order to protect innocent lives, his death is not a time for jubilation. His presumed lost soul is a tragedy.  His death in no way *makes up * for those he brutally killed or was responsible for killing. It is a time to pray for God’s mercy on us all- and to pray for protection from the backlash that may follow. War is always ugly, and untimely death is never good, even if it brings relief and even if there was no other choice in order to protect others. This action seems to have been necessary to protect humankind from further atrocities against it. But, in my opinion, the proper response is sadness that his brutality cut short so many lives, and that his own ended with no seeming remorse. On our knees. that should be the response. Begging for God’s merciful love and protection.

The media, by the way, has a responsibility, in my opinion NOT to continue to promote/advertise/televise incidences of celebration, as this just further ignites hatred/revenge. I can’t believe what I’ve seen already- the tapes playing over and over—this is terribly irresponsible of them considering the security risk, not to mention unChristian spirit.

Anyway, you asked for our responses. That is mine. God bless-

Thank you, Jimmy!

Was this a killing in the midst of a military operation, i.e. during a firefight?

Or was it a summary execution after the firefight had ended?  He was shot in the head at close range.  Was this a case of essentially capturing him, being in the same room with him and asking him to surrender, and when he did not respond within a half-second, shooting him?

One is morally permissible.  The other is not only morally impermissible, but is a war crime.

I think it is interesting that Osama bin Laden died on the day we in the United States were celebrating the Feast of Divine Mercy, a feast which Pope John Paul II initiated per the revelations of Jesus to Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska, the Polish saint.  It is a Mercy described as an infinite ocean. Pope John Paul II, who forgave his attempted assassinator, was also beatified yesterday, the day Osama died.  There is a lot to reflect on here. 

“Today bring to Me all mankind, especially all sinners, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me.”
( http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/novena.htm)

I think this is another incompetent blunder by our president. This man is militarily a fool, and will lead us into Armageddon if we let him. He has no personal experience of war, no concept of negotiation through strength, and worst of all no humility before the maker of human life. Here is a man who voted—several times—to allow newborn babies to die without medical care after a ‘botched’ abortion resulted in their live birth. A heart of stone, if ever there was one. Meanwhile, he has under his control the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

In the midst of a world that is unravelling at the seams, we have a madman with unlimited power bumbling through the middle of it all— only God’s mercy will help us get out of this world’s unprecedented dilemmas.

Pray the Rosary for peace.

One thought. If it is true that some fanatic is thinking of some catastrophic retaliation they should pause and reflect. The governments of the West are not christian debating societies nor are their citizans saints. The reaction of the West to such a catastrophy cannot be calculated. I would not be willing to bet that its effect would not be such as to put and end to Islamic fundamentalism for a few hundred years. No, don’t bank on christain charity to rule the day.

This is another case of a teaching that is fairly easy to grasp; but very hard to live out. And the degree that you are close to the situation (lost someone in 9/11 or the ensewing war), the harder it is to forgive or pray for Bin Laden.
I am reminded of the prisoner in “Parish Priest” that Fr. McGivney was able to talk to prior to his execution. Bin Laden will never have the opportunity to have the Gospel preached to him. His eternal fate is sealed (one way or the other).
Bin Laden died on May 2nd (his time), the feast of St. Athanasius.
St. Athanasius was born around 297 in Alexandria, Egypt. He devoted his life to proving that Jesus is truly God. This is important because some people called Arians denied it (Muslims like Bin Laden also deny this). Even before he became a priest, Athanasius had read many books on the faith. That is why he could so easily point out the false teachings of the Arians.

Joseph D’Hippolito, you said:
“I thank and praise God for his death. Why? Because God is not the limp-wristed xxxxx you and other Catholics make Him out to be. God is a mighty warrior who fights for the righteous and the vulnerable, and demands that those who revere Him do likewise. God hates evil and He hates the wicked…and bin Laden certainly was wicked.”
Your own statement contradicts itself.
If God is a mighty warrior who fights for the righteous and vulnerable, then why did it take Him 10 years to kill Bin Laden, and why does other evil continue to exist in the world. I believe God is all-powerful, and could wipe these things out immediately if He so chose. The fact that He doesn’t, should tell you something about His great love for us. As St. Peter says in his letter, God has delayed His coming out of mercy on us.

Does one ever pause to reflect on why the US has a military presence in 138 countries? Osama killed thousands? Stop by Antietam, MD on Sept. 17th when they commemorate a battle which caused 23,000 American (both sides) casualties in ONE DAY. Think of Tokyo, Nagoya, Hiroshima and Nagasaki and other Japanese cities destroyed by U.S. bombers during the war which America BEGAN in JULY, 1941 by shutting off the oil supply to Japan knowing that Japan had to fight back. Osama used the only weapons at his disposal. Do you think the people in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Yemen are happy with the tyrants we have forced on them over the years in order to protect the interests of the U.S. and its allies? If you were in their shoes what would YOU do?

Joseph you seem to have some real anger issues. Using the sexual molestation of children by gay pedophiles masquerading as priests is reprehensible.  The Catholic Church is the one true church, the only one started by Christ.  HE said the gates of hell will not prevail against it.  As Steve says, God has great love for us in that he not only does not destroy us, but allows us to make our own decisions, even when they are bad ones.  It’s called free will.  Exercise some restraint when posting next time so that God doesn’t permit you to make another bad choice.

I disagree that a sea burial was the right answer.  There’s an undeniable advantage at allowing multiple forensic teams to exam a body (like at Nuremberg: http://bit.ly/lEzgHr).  Then, it can be cremated and its ashes thrown at sea.

@Bill: You are listing acts of war. Bin Laden’s WTC attack was an act of terrorism. There is a world of difference.

Thanks for this article, Jimmy. I’ve been struggling with how to respond to this news since last night.  I finally decided that we should all pray for our leaders who have to make these very difficult decisions, and for our military personnel who accomplish their orders on behalf of us. I am thankful for them, and thankful I am not one of them. In the end, we will all stand in front of a merciful and just God and be held accountable for our actions. It pains me that so few carry such a heavy burden for all the rest of us.  Pray for them.

No Catholic should have any handwringing over this.  The man personified satanic evil even up to his last cowardly breath by using a woman to shield him.  This guy was a !@#$% from the start.  The Old Testament is filled with evil men and those whom even the Lord Himself destroyed or used the nation of Israel to destroy in the name of righteousness.  Nimrod, Goliath, Pharaoh and Nebechanezur come to mind.  Who is say that the Lord Himself did not ultimately choose the timing and circumstances for Bin Laden’s end.  His legacy is that of a coward and the stench of death for all who followed him in the name of Allah.

Great post, Jimmy.

@Joseph D’Hippolito

  Apparently all those parables about God’s mercy especially seeking out the worst sinners isn’t becoming of Him.  Or the fact that the power of God is most clearly manifest in what the world sees as weakness (your ‘limp-wristedness, I would imagine) or that the incarnate God himself was not an earthly warrior who butchered the Roman occupiers but a spiritual messiah who offered them no resistance as they tortured him to death, all the while begging his Father that they be forgiven.

It’s also nice that you have to resort to pathetic red-herrings to get your point across.

One benefit from OBL’s demise is that it destroys the myth of bin Laden as somehow untouchable, as some kind of prophetic or messianic figure protected by Allah.  OBL’s mystique was a factor in recruiting young Muslims who believed that Allah was acting in the world to bring about a glorious rise of Islam and the “restoration” of a caliphate.  The more that myth gets crushed, the better.

Christ loved Osama enough to die for him.  If you love Christ, you should mourn the apparent loss of one that Christ loves so much.

Hope and pray for the salvation of every human person.

Why did the Vatican have to post an official response to the death?

I don’t recall what the Vatican had to say when we learned of the deaths of;

Mao

Stalin

or Hitler

but the news of the death of a savage innocent-killing terrorist is a thing that is good to hear in the morning and let it be noted that Pope St Pius V was very happy to learn we Christian Catholics had destroyed the Muslims fleet at Lepanto and he was trying to assemble another league of Italian Cities and European countries to liberate Christian Catholics then living in the dhimmitude forcibly applied by those professing a false religion.

All of this let’s-not-be-happy-that-Bin-Laden-was-kilt stuff is more than off-putting. A terrorist was killed by some exemplary men - the Navy Seals - and Kudos to Obama for ordering the attack

“what kind of reprisals may be coming and whether bin Laden will long-term be perceived as a martyr or a failure”
The Arab world is FULL of martyrs, so this is completely immaterial. Charity required that we pray for UBL and his co-religionists for conversion. We also need to refrain from myopia. There are a long list of terrorist attacks from this group on US soil and abroad, including the first attempt to blow up the WTC in 1993, the bombing of the USS Cole, the bombing of 2 US Embassies and the air base and reserve offices in Saudi. I could go on. Most of the vicims have been Muslims. Sometimes, you have to act and not worry about us arm chair generals, especially those here saying, well, in this case it may not be ok when the guy is shooting at you.

@Bill, give me a break. Did you ever hear of the Rape of Nanking? or the Death Marches in the Phillipines? or the murder of thousands of Philipinos? Because of the US military standing on the edge of darkness, holding back the forces who do the work of evil, you can pontificate. Without that, we are Dhimmis, living in submission to Islam in the new Caliphate.
The Kingdom of God is not of this world, the king of this world is the evil one and there are those who serve him and we are called by our baptism to resist. Appeasement never works, not in marriages, not with nations and not with evil.

He was an obvious enemy.  Perhaps no more and no less evil than the abortionists.  Evil is evil, and until Christ returns there is no less of it just because one man was killed.  There is no reason to rejoice in his death.  The only thing to rejoice about is that Christ triumphed over death.

@Red_Beard who wrote:  “Christ loved Osama enough to die for him.  If you love Christ, you should mourn the apparent loss of one that Christ loves so much.”

Your Pollyana attitude is either naive at best or despicable at worst.  You would have us mourn the death of Pol Pot as well.  Try selling your wares to families of those who jumped out the Twin Towers.  Bin Laden never accepted Christ’s death on the cross.  What Kumbaya planet do you live on?

Far too many Christian Catholics think that the only right action of The Church Militant consists in solely praying for the enemy coming to kill you and that killing that enemy is a bad thing. Had such men living today been alive back in the day, we’d all be speaking Arabic, hitting a prayer mat five times a day, making the Hajj, and paying the Zakat.

Well, Pope Saint Pius V was happy - so happy he burst into tears of joy -upon hearing that we Catholics crushed the savages at Lepanto. And, no, the men under Don Juan were not praying for their enemies. They were praying for success against a savage and deadly enemy and, guess what, Mary helped them win a War - you know, that event in which a deadly enemy dies - as in dead, DED, dead.

http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/crusades/battle-of-lepanto.htm

Please visit www.PresidentObamaHelp.com

Spread the word.

Let’s encourage Obama to raise awareness of Christians in the middle east.

Thanks for the article Jimmy!

You would have us mourn the death of Pol Pot as well. 

Yes. And of every other sinner too.  God does not rejoice in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

The Canticle of Judith does not appear to describe God sad at Holofornes losing his head and it does not appear he thought Israel ought be mourning his death. In fact, He intervened to make it happen

As for Ezekiel 33:11 does not say that God mourns the death of the wicked.

“” *Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Haydock Commentary

Ver. 11. Desire. The sinner’s damnation is not an object of God’s pleasure, chap. xviii. 23. (Calmet)—- He has an antecedent will to save all. He knocks at the door of our heart, (Apocalypse iii. 20.) and if man do what depends on him, nothing will be wanting on the part of God. (St. Thomas Aquinas, [Summa Theologiae] i. 2. q. 109. and 112.) (Worthington)

There is nothing about rejoice in the Douay Rheims quotation. And there is zip about mourning the death of the wicked.

But, Mr. Shea, if you wanna mourn the death of Bin Laden, be my guest. Personally, I think the idea, say nothing of the act, is repulsive on every single level.

The one thing about a burial at sea (so quickly after his death) is this is going to be a breeding ground for conspiracy theories.  However, I do agree with with your overall statement.

Concerning the Vatican’s statement.  The Holy See described exactly what I had been feeling on the issue (but couldn’t quite figure out the words).  I personally wonder if they had a pre-written statement ready to go.  Everyone knew that the U.S. was looking for Osama.  It’s possible that they had written it months ago anticipating the possibility that the U.S. would be successful.  Then, the Church would be confident with the pastoral tone of what is being said.

To Kerry “Using the sexual molestation of children by gay pedophiles masquerading as priests is reprehensible.” 

I do not want to get off track here but please do your homework before you make blanket statements regarding sexual predators.  You will find that most of them are straight (heterosexual) men.  Not “gay pedophiles.”

I too was stunned by the news of bin Laden’s death, but also prayed for God to have mercy on his soul.

Mark Shea, you might feel differently if you had someone you love die among burning jet fuel in Tower No. 1.

I might.  However, the rightness or wrongness of gloating and rejoicing over somebody’s death is not determined by my feelings or yours.  Someone I love was crucified because of what bin Laden did—and because of what I’ve done.  He told me I have to love my enemies and he said that if I called him “Lord, Lord” but did not do what he commanded then I would be told to depart from him. So, on the whole, I think it best to be relieved the world is quit of an evil man and then to pray that that man find mercy, since Jesus also told us when we pray we are to forgive anything against anyone or God would not forgive us (Mark 11:25).

I, too, wrote about this event this morning. I’d be interested in hearing if others agree with what I posted.

http://acts17verse28.blogspot.com/2011/05/few-thoughts-about-bin-ladens-death.html

I think we can be thankful that a incredibly evil man is dead and the fact that he can no longer hurt anyone. i do not think we should be Rejoicing, gloating, or dancing in the streets. Bin laden caused unspeakable pain to countless people. Our troops did their duty, and protected ameriacans. this is a very serious event that should not be taken lightly. May God have mercy on us all.

Pierce Oka: Thank you for your comment. Osama would disagree with you. He was very much at war, an asymmetrical war, as Muslims do not possess the advanced weaponry the U.S. possesses. The U.S. has not fought a declared war since WW II and yet we have killed Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Iraqis, Libyans, Saudis, Somalis etc. The U.S. agencies are torturing captives RIGHT NOW (enhanced interrogation we prefer to call it). Do you remember the Philippine Insurrection of 1903 to 1906? One of the reasons the U.S. Army fought that was TO REMOVE THE YOKE OF ROMAN CATHOLICISM AND TO CONVERT THE FILIPINOS TO CHRISTIANITY. Readers, if you don’t really read, there was no point in learning to read.

What I find to be profoundly sad is that many of my Catholic friends rejoiced in the death of our enemy - on Divine Mercy Sunday!  We enjoyed the leadership of one of the greatest Popes in history and we failed to learn the lesson he taught us, or even to embrace the gift of Divine Mercy Sunday.  Does anyone remember that Pope John Paul was beatified yesterday?  As a Catholic I feel insulted by the current administration and it’s lack of consideration for my faith, and the evil it committed on one of the greatest days in our religion’s history.

There is no reason to rejoice. A man has died unrepentant and in his mind as a Martyr. He has corrupted the mind of young people to do evil inthe name of God! 

It is really wonderful that the death of an enemy of mankind occurred on the day of Blessed John-Paul the Great ! a man who drew youth to Christ by his words and deeds. A man who saw a man’s rule who corrupted many youth of his people. Justice is done, but a Justice which is bitter and unrequited! Let’s pray for all who would follow him: that Our Lord guide themin the way of Truth.

This was reported today.  “ ‘Most people are really emotional now that he is killed, we are happy. At lunch everyone was congratulating each other, especially those who lived under the Taliban, ‘ Shakib Shariffi, a 29-year-old Kabul resident, told Al Jazeera.”  Head, Jacqueline “Death fails to bring hope to Afghans.”  Al Jazeera 02 May 2011 <http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/05/20115214431590378.html>  Their happiness makes me happy, Fr. Federico Lombardi’s opinion notwithstanding.

The spiritual world : Jesus teaching on The Judgment : ” The son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend ,and them which do iniquity ; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire : there shall be wailing a d gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth on the sun in the kingdom of their Father .Who hath ears to hear, let him hear ( Matthew 13:40-42)
If possible , let us reflect on a general prophecy of the old testament and it’s fulfillment : Ahab to die in battle against the
Syrians ( 1king 20:42, 1king 22:15-17) it’s fulfillment (  1 King 22:34-35,38)

“I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.” ~Martin Luther King Jr

God bless you and save you, Joe.  You and all of us.

I agree what Greg Colley said, Returning hate for hate multiiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.  Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.  So let GOD handle it all.

?“Says the Lord: have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked? But rather I will that the wicked turn from his way, and live.” Ezekiel 18:23

“When your enemy shall fall, be not glad, and in his ruin let not your heart rejoice: Lest the Lord see, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.” Proverbs 24:17-18

“And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man: that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins. But if you will not forgive, neither will your father that is in heaven forgive you your sins.” Mark 11:25

“You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbour, and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who makes his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and rains upon the just and the unjust.” -Matthew 5:43-45

“Bless them that persecute you: bless, and curse not.” -Romans 12:14

“And when they had come to the place which is called Calvary, they crucified him there: and the robbers, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Luke 23:33

On the one hand, we are called to rejoice at every good.  Temporal justice and punishment to the wicked, properly understood, is a good, and should be rejoiced at.  And the forestalling of further evils through justice is also a good, and a great one, and should likewise be rejoiced at.

Nevertheless, the death of a man, and the Everlasting Death especially of a soul, is an evil, a sorrow, and an everlasting horror.  And the subject of this evil is no less than the immortal soul of man, the Image of God.  This is no light matter.

This evil is not to be rejoiced at, and not even God takes pleasure in it (see above quotes): how may we, then, who are wicked and whose sins are equally worthy of Everlasting Death, dare to rejoice, when even God himself shrinks from doing so? 

Yes, in the very last scheme of things, when the sheep and the goats have been divided, then even the Damned will provide some good in God’s eternal plan by satisfying Justice in Hell; but we are not in that next life.  We are not spotless, but sinners.

The Divine Mercy of Christ surpasses his justice, even as the glorious, blessed good of the salvation of a soul surpasses the bare, awful good of the justice shown in the soul of a damned man.  It is his Mercy which will redeem the world.  His Justice is a terrible thing, and no man alive on Earth is spotless enough to use it as his plaything, calling upon it as a weapon to destroy his enemies while laughing at it when applied to him.  By the Justice of God all are worthy of death; but through his mercy, we are redeemed and brought to life.  Never forget that.

Christ died for Osama Bin Laden, and for you, and for all mankind, as the Church has always proclaimed.  And the sins he took upon himself were sins indeed, real sins, inexcusable sins, and dark sins, sins worthy of death and everlasting torment; they were the sins of the world, your sins and mine, and they surpassed the sins of Osama Bin Laden alone as much the ocean surpasses a drop of water.

This much, at least, is not open to debate: that whether we rejoice or are sad, we, inasmuch as we consider him an enemy, are absolutely required to forgive and pray for the soul of Osama Bin Laden.  This is the command of Christ himself, and no one on Earth has the authority to gainsay it.

Think of Tokyo, Nagoya, Hiroshima and Nagasaki and other Japanese cities destroyed by U.S. bombers during the war which America BEGAN in JULY, 1941 by shutting off the oil supply to Japan knowing that Japan had to fight back.

Tell that to the Chinese.  After years of handwringing, the US finally cut off the supplies the Japanese needed to commit such atrocities as the Rape of Nanking—Nanking itself being only the tip of the iceberg, well known because of many European witnesses.

Well said, Captain Peabody.

But God will break you down forever;
he will snatch and tear you from your tent;
he will uproot you from the land of the living.
The righteous will see , and fear , and will laugh at the evildoer.

PSALM 52:5-6

This is the Word of God too. A person who commits such grave evil cannot be presumed to have repented. It is a possibility, but no more. We must be glad that evil has reaped its rich reward, that a coward who killed 3000 innocent people has now died a coward’s death.

And I’m not even American, so don’t accuse me of political leanings either way. God bless. :-)

Dear Friends:

Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.  Ask for Mercy of all poor souls.

And also pray to Saint Michael Chaplet to protect our Country.  Amen

Dear Respondent:

Thank you for your response, so do you live in America? I would never teach you politics.  Thank you again.

Dear Captain Peabody. You cited this:

?“Says the Lord: have I any pleasure at all in the death of the wicked? But rather I will that the wicked turn from his way, and live.” Ezekiel 18:23

Here is The trustworthy Douay Rheims Version with reliable commentary:

Ezekiel 18:23 *Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live?

Ver. 23. Will. God sincerely wishes that the sinner should be converted. If he refuse grace, it is only in punishment of former transgressions. (St. Augustine, ep. 217.)—- He wills antecedently their salvation, (1 Timothy ii. 4.) though he has a consequent will to punish them, as they speak in the schools, because they themselves will not be saved. (Sanctius) (Calmet)—- God’s absolute will is always fulfilled, not that which is conditional. (St. John Damascene, Fide ii. 29.; St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae p. 1. q. 19. a. 6.)—- He does enough by offering his graces and the death of Christ, to shew that his will is sincere; though by a consequent will his justice punishes the impenitent. Thus a virtuous judge would have all to observe the laws and live: but finding some transgress, so as to become pernicious, he punishes them with death. (Worthington)

Dom Orchard’s, “A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture,” similarly, takes no notice of a putative “taking-of-pleasure” in that passage. Part of the Commentary; “God is more pleased to pardon than to punish but repentance is necessary for pardon and no sinner is safe from chastisement.”

A lot of Biblical citations from protestant sources are unreliable and often results in crummy commentary.

Catholics ought use only Catholic Bibles. We wrote every single word of the New Testament; it is our exclusive property; we are its absolute owner; we are its absolute Guardian; we are its absolute Trustee; and we are its sole Interpreter.” (Paraphrase from “The Bible as the Church’s Exclusive Possession” from Dom Orchard’s, “A Catholic Commentary of Holy Scripture.”

I like Mary’s comment to “let God handle it all”.  I do feel it’s more than a coincidence that bin Laden was killed on the Feast of the Divine Mercy.  I pray that each and every person who was killed by his masterminded attacks was washed in an ocean of mercy at their time of violent death.  After each and every one of them, I’ll pray for him last.

ONDAY, MAY 02, 2011
Bin Laden Whiplash

I’m the first to admit I felt a certain sense of exultation that they got the murderer. I sang “Ding, dong, bin Laden’s dead” and immediately checked the Interwebz to see what else they knew…
Nobody on earth more richly deserved to die than he…I also, by the way, would be foursquare in favor of burying his corpse in a bag full of bacon at sea (broadcast on global TV), just as a warning to the rest of his lunatic followers. But I suppose I can’t have everything

POSTED BY MARK P. SHEA AT 9:17 AM

Posted by Mark Shea on Monday, May 2, 2011 5:58 PM (EDT):
“You would have us mourn the death of Pol Pot as well.”

Yes. And of every other sinner too.  God does not rejoice in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

What a difference nine hours makes.

You don’t know what you think. You are all over the place. As for burying him in bacon, even those who admit they were happy to hear he was kilt haven’t fallen to your level. Desiring that America publicly treat his dead body that way is far worse than any words written by those you are taking to task.

You sir, are mentally ill.

I don’t see how you get around “Love thine enemies.” 

You can’t love someone and be happy they are dead or wish them in hell.

It’s not surprising to hear that Bin Laden hid behind a woman. THere is this from VDARE:

A French Reader Notes A Lack Of Chivalry Among Muslim Refugees:” During The Trip To Lampedusa, 12 Girls Were Thrown Into The Sea.’”

Re: James Fulford’s blog post: Camp Of The Saints (Camposanto?) in Italy

From: An anonymous reader in France [Send her mail]

I just thought that I would bring your attention to the situation between France and Italy regarding illegal immigrants from North Africa.

You may have seen reports in the English-speaking press about France closing the border between it and Italy.  One such report is this one that appeared in The Telegraph: France stops all Italian trains carrying north African immigrants,  By Peter Allen, April 17, 2011.

This story doesn’t quite tell it as the French press does.  It appears from Le Figaro that the illegals were arrested and, in the main, returned and that the border wasn’t officially closed:

One thing in particular stands out in this story:

QUOTE

Tous, exclusivement des hommes jeunes, plutôt pauvres et rarement francophones, racontent la même histoire.  Comme Tarek, 20 ans, parti il y a vingt jours de Kairouan.  ‹Nous étions entassés à 150 dans un bateau prévu pour 60, explique le garçon.  Au cours du trajet pour Lampedusa, douze filles ont été jetées à la mer.[ À Vintimille, un «Sangatte» entre France et Italie, By Vincent-Xavier Morvan, April 4, 2011.]

END QUOTE

TRANSLATION

All, exclusively young men, rather poor and rarely able to speak French, tell the same story.  Like Tarek, 20 years old, who departed 20 days ago from Kairouan.  ‘150 of us were crammed into a boat constructed for 60, explained the young man.  During the trip to Lampedusa, 12 girls were thrown into the sea.’

END TRANSLATION

As one of the commentators on the article said:  “12 filles jetées à la mer. C’est un acte barbare ...quelle sorte de gens sont ils ?” (“12 girls thrown into the sea.  That’s a barbaric act…what sort of people are these?”

Funny how this part of the story has never made it into the English-speaking press as far as I know.

I hope that this information is of help to you.

After reading above, I feel the plan was done correctly.  Let’s pray no worse reprisals happen…I hope he took time to repent.

You, sir, are mentally ill.

I, sir, am a human being recording the normal emotional reaction of a Christian who wishes to think with the Church and not merely be governed by emotion.  That’s why I chose the word “whiplash”.

Gary, while your desire for more peace is admirable, I found your concluding remarks “As a Catholic I feel insulted by the current administration and it’s lack of consideration for my faith, and the evil it committed on one of the greatest days in our religion’s history” a bit odd (to put it as charitably as I can.)
  If by chance, President Obama had given the order to attack bin Laden’s compound on Saturday or Monday out of [specific] concern for our particular faith, one among many others in this OFFICIALLY SECULAR NATION, and such decision resulted in a botched raid or even just the death or wounding of one single Navy Seal, several repercussions would almost certainly result, all of them being bad, and especially bad for all Catholics in this country.
  He could be impeached and convicted. Some people would love to see that; but under these conditions, the renting of the national fabric would likely make the turmoil surrounding the Clinton, Nixon and Johnson impeachment proceedings and the terrible ideologically polarizing aftermaths look like a high school debating contest.
  Notwithstanding the fact most Catholics, (whose faith represents the single largest Church in the nation)—would be furious themselves with such considerations which lead to the loss of life and limb to our Seals sent in harm’s way—never forget that we still only represent roughly 65 million or so Christians in a predominately Protestant nation. Also remember what’s in the Declaration of Independence; an anti-Catholic grieviance against George III for allowing newly conquered, but French-speaking Catholics in Quebec to practice Catholicism, which at the time of our separation from London was long considered one of the primary reasons for the establishment of the colonies in the first place. In some particularly well-known instances and colonies, the settlers were fleeing what they believed to be increasing “popery” within the established Anglican church. Even a “whiff” of “popery” riled them then and if President Obama had timed the mission to take out bin Laden around our religious calendar, the word ugly wouldn’t come close to describing the outcry if the mission failed and we suffered enormous casualties or a complete loss of the Seals.
  Consider also the number of Catholics who lost their lives and how long their families have not only mourned their losses, but patiently awaited justice for bin Laden’s crime of mass murder. Don’t they deserve the perhaps not so divine mercy of receiving justice for their losses and the peace of mind knowing this man won’t be alive to plot any more crimes like 9/11, the USS Cole bombing, and the bombings of the our embassies in Africa…just to list his most noted outrages committed in the last dozen years?
  Those Catholics, whose lives have been directly touched by bin Laden’s murderous run would not only suffer the further delay of justice for bin Laden, but they along with us would also feel the lash of knowing their faith would be used against them by a [justifiably] outraged American public. Wouldn’t you be outraged if the President favored another faith ... and that’s what he’d be doing if he interfered in the extremely careful operational planning of this mission, and most of the very brave Seals lost their lives or were seriously wounded happened to be Catholic? Imagine how a predominately Protestant public feel if say the Seals suffered a high rate of Protestant casualties because the President decided to follow your suggestion.
  I know you mean well Gary, but your idea is far too fraught with many very ugly ramifications had it been given to President Obama—or any president—and the mission failed or succeeded with a great loss of American blood and the public got wind of it.
  We should all be thankful President Obama acted when he did. What I’ve just written will not endear me to any of the peace at any price wing of our Church, but there comes a time when we have to stand up and take care of the evildoers when the opportunities present themselves; however they might clash with our respective liturgical calendars. The United States is not officially a “Christian nation” and I hope it never becomes one. Because those who succeed in getting the nation officially declared “Christian” won’t stop there. They never have and never will. Even the wise Virginians warned against this, especially James Madison. And we sure as heck don’t need a potential bloody millstone placed around our necks (such as your point about the timing of the mission) if and when the day…which I pray never occurs…that the big debate over what this republic’s official religion will be. Ironically enough, a botched raid in Abbottabad would surely hasten it, with Catholics being the ultimate losers, and unnecessarily so, indeed.

Mark Shea, you really are a disgusting human being.  A coward who is so elitist and heavenly minded you are of no earthly good.  You even have defended KSM.  Were you on Flight 93 over Shanksville, PA while other “men” were trying to help, no doubt you would have hidden in the bathroom.  People like you enable evil to exist.

With the death of OBL
I rejoice that the world is a safer place;
I rejoice that that there is one less person who wants to either enslave or kill me or do likewise to my family and country;
I rejoice that there is one less inciter of international terror;
I rejoice that that is one less inciter of hatred towards non-Muslims.
I wish that he had been captured alive and brought to trial but recognise that not everything is possible in this world.
And if given only one choice of him being free to go about his mission or dead, I choose death for him and those who in their millions follow his example.  For those millions I pray for their repentance in the time they have left.

“I, sir, am a human being recording the normal emotional reaction of a Christian who wishes to think with the Church and not merely be governed by emotion.”

You sir, have illustrated that you are, indeed, mentally ill. You had an opportunity to take-back your sick and twisted rhetoric of burying Bin Laden in Bacon and, instead, you claim to be exemplifying Sentire cum Ecclesia.

You are demented; and that is a god thing because it absolves you of culpability for making such a claim after writing and posting, and not taking-back, such hateful and evil desires.

Get to Confession a.s.a.p.

I can not imagine anyone in their right mind buying one of your books.

You, repeatedly, disgrace yourself in these comment boxes.

New Observer:

I have never defended KSM.  I have defended the Church’s teaching that good ends are not justification for intrinsically immoral means.  Now I am defending the highly unpopular saying of our Lord that we must love our enemies, even when we must kill them in a Just War.  Believing in Just War, I have no problem with killing OBL and (I hope) I would have been among the passengers who attacked the hijackers on United 93.  I’m glad you are certain of your own courage and righteousness.  For myself, I’m certain I’m a sinner who needs mercy.  Thanks for the reminder that it is not found with men, but with God. God bless you and give you mercy on That Day.  You, like OBL and me, will need it.

VC:

I’m (obviously) not claiming to think with the Church when I record my feeling about an ignominious burial for bin Laden.  Merely expressing feelings and the notion that if it dissuaded followers from imitating him, then that’s fine with me.  I think his soul needs prayer, not his corpse. Thanks for the long-distance diagnosis, doctor.  Your expertise in the inner working of my soul is worth every penny it took to post.

Mr. Shea one day - WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27, 2011
The first amendment exists so that jerks can have their say

Terry Jones is a grade A jerk. Heedless of the fact that, when you poke an alligator with a stick, the alligator will bite, he insists on burning the Koran in the full knowledge that Muslim alligators abroad, being Bronze Age savages and thin-skinned bullies unready for civilization, will kill people, including Americans. His reckless, stupid and vile behavior, which endangers lives abroad just as poking an alligator with a stick does, should be condemned by any decent person

Mr. Shea another day MONDAY, MAY 02, 2011

also, by the way, would be foursquare in favor of burying his corpse in a bag full of bacon at sea (broadcast on global TV), just as a warning to the rest of his lunatic followers. But I suppose I can’t have everything

POSTED BY MARK P. SHEA AT 9:17 AM

Mr. Shea. You claim to be a decent person, so, have at it. Condemn your remarks about burying Bin Laden in Bacon.

Of course, it’d be a bit late and you’d not remove the idea you are insane, unbalanced, and wildly in opposition to integrity and consistency; still, better late than never.

As to your most recent post. I was not commenting on the state of your soul but rather the instability of your intellect.I think you are insane and I judge solely by what you write and chose to publish publicly. And what I posted that was written by you less than a week apart reveals a seriously disordered intellect.

Please seek the help of a professional christian psychologist.

Dear Apologist-Friends of Mr. Shea. Contact him and tell him to quit Blogging and go on retreat. He is in the midst of an auto-destruction of his character. What he has been writing recently is insane and wildly incongruent and his comment box commentary, in here and at Minority Report, is despicable and disgraceful.

Seriously, contact Mr. Shea if he is your friend.

Ok, I cannot believe that I am about to defend Mark Shea, but here goes. First, by what we know to be TRUTH, if you are buried wrapped in a pigskin or with a bag of chicharrones, it will not affect your eternal soul. That is the truth. That some people do not agree is their business.
I’m glad UBL is dead and gone. I don’t rejoice in his death, but I am relieved.
The whole west and Christian world has been at war with Islam since the 9th century and lots of Christians have died along the way. Don’t bother telling me about Christian atrocities. Pope Pius V held a vigil, then feast for the victory of the Christian fleet at Lepanto. We are basically doing the same thing. Just not polite to gloat.
Finally, General Pershing in the Philippines was plagued by Muslim predecessors of Abu Sayaf. When he captured some who were terrorist murderers, they were executed and their bodies thrown in a mass grave along with several hogs. The two who escaped spread the word and the terrorism stopped. Again, it had no effect on their eternal souls, remember? What bothers me most is the inability of some Catholics to tell the difference between truth and personal opinion and sentimentalism.

Dear Jimmy: After reading your blog and those who have commented on the death of Osama bin Laden, including the Vatican, it seems that there is more heat than light being put forth.  We have found that most people have a mixed reaction to his death and the way he was killed.  In such circumstances, we find it helpful to sit next to God, as our loving Father, and ask him what he has to say about the matter.  As always, he invariably responds, “What have I already told you.”  And so, we discuss how he helped in the defeat of Midian in Jgs 7:1-25, what he said about individual accountability in Ez 33:1-20, what he said about casting stones at the adulteress in Jn 8:1-11, and that all vengeance is his and we are called to love one another in Rom 12:9-21.  As such, we found light in his words.  As we understand it, what he is saying is if the act was done according to his will, he is most pleased; but, if was not, he is most sorrowful.  How do we know if it was according to his will or not?  If it brings us and others closer to God, it is according to his will; but, if it does not, it is not.  Time will tell.

AnneG:

Just so.  I’m not a Muslim.  I don’t think burying him in bacon does anything for his eternal chances one way or t’other.  I’m thinking about the effect it would have on his followers and hoping the the Pershing Effect would work again.  And, in any case, my mutterings were a pipe dream (and known to be so when I muttered them) since OBL’s last rites are already history.  It’s best that cooler heads than mine have prevailed on this point, since ticking off the Muslim crocodile, while it might deter from terrorism against us, will likely result in Muslim bullies beating up Christians in Pakistan.  That’s what bullies do when they can’t harm the stronger: they compensate by harming the weaker.

I think it comes down to this:  How willing are we to look at everything in our lives, our world, through the lens Jesus left us:  The Church.  Sometimes, are first reactions are NOT what Jesus would have us do.  We are human.  That’s why he gave us Himself.  We take our first reactions, our emotions, and mold them and conform them to Christ.  We do that by willing it.  Not by feeling it.

@ Brother Robert Anthony who writes:  “and the way he was killed.”  Brother, according to the reports, the way he (Osama) was killed was with a weapon in his hands in the midst of gun battle using a woman to shield his cowardly self.  I am surprised he was not also wearing a Burkha.  Please do not spin this into something whereby our Special Forces should be ashamed of themselves.  David cut off the head of Goliath the Philistine.  Maybe you would also like to issue David a formal reprimand.

Dear AnneG. Neither of Mr Shea’s post had to do with what happened to his soul and now that you introduced the Pershing incident (you also could have cited the more recent example in Spain where some locals buried a dead pig in the ground intended for a Mosque), Mr Shea will now claim that was what he was thinking about.

Well, other than the fact he never cited that as a reason for his ranting, I ‘spose that is easier than apologising :)

VC:

Apparently you cannot distinguish between needlessly provoking all Muslims on earth, terrorist or not, by gratuitously burning the Koran and the notion of humiliating the corpse of an architect of mass murder in order to make other mass murderer wannabes think twice.  I don’t think making that distinction is insane.  I also don’t really recommend the latter course, but was, as I think most people with normal social and emotional perception abilities grasp, mainly blowing off steam.  It’s water under (and over) bin Laden’s ignominious body bag.  Time to let it go.

Mr Shea will now claim that was what he was thinking about

Of course it’s what I was thinking about.  Do your mystic powers also extend to mind reading that you know I wasn’t envisioning a scenario like this?  Can you tell me who will win the World Series this year?

Mr. Shea. You are certifiable. Of course there is the Bible and Tradition and the Decrees of Ecumenical Council that witness/order the burning of books but there is no Biblical reference or example from Tradition or Ecumenical Conciliar Decrees allowing for the insulting/disparagement of a body

As for your putative Pershing Example, it is a hoax.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp

“of course it’s what I was thinking about.  Do your mystic powers ..”

I have no way of knowing that was what you were thinking.  I would think that if that was the basis for your desire then you would have said that but you didn’t say that

Yes. The Phillies will win the World Series That is not due to a mystic power but a rational assessment

Adios…

Whenever I hear of the 3000 people who died on 9/11, as painful as that is to remember, especially to those who lost a loved one, I cannot but think that this was not even a day’s work in the abortion mills of the USA. There was no excuse for what happened on 9/11, but how quickly we forget that the terrorism in the womb goes on day after day after day, to say nothing of other grave evils such as pornography, child abuse, rape, fornication, and all the other sins we so easily dismiss. As Chesterton once wrote in response to an editorial in a newspaper, asking what was wrong with the world, “I am.” None of us was immaculately conceived; we are all sinners who need to repent. And pray for the conversion of sinners. And forgive those who have sinned against us.

Didn’t know the Pershing thing was a hoax.  Good to know.  As to my lack of tender regard for the corpse of bin Laden, as I say, I’m not trying to argue that my emotional reaction to his death is Church teaching.  Merely recording that I am a human being with the typical range of emotional reactions, as people with normal emotional and affective skills can generally intuit.  It’s odd that you are spending such vast quantities of energy on a tossed off and unserious remark, while totally and completely ignoring things like “God hates evil and He hates the wicked…and bin Laden certainly was wicked.” Do you agree that God hates bin Laden (and presumably any other person a self-evidently righteous Christian hates)? Do think it’s particularly wise for a sinner saved by grace to say, “I thank you, O Lord, that I am not like other men, or even like that bin Laden over there, who I hate and who I know you hate too.” As I say, I think that of much greater moment than what becomes of his corpse.

Posted by Mark Shea on Monday, May 2, 2011 5:58 PM (EDT):

“You would have us mourn the death of Pol Pot as well. “

Yes. And of every other sinner too.  God does not rejoice in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

Dear Mr. Shea you arrived at this thread filled with self-righteous bluster and now you are reduced to trying to defend your hateful and vile desire to bury Bin Laden in bacon.

Now, I guess that is what you think constitutes mourning but I don’t. What you desired would be guaranteed to enflame an already deadly enemy and yet you continue to try and defend that vile desire.

I know you can not see the insane incongruity in your vile personal desires versus what you demand of everyone else and that is why I appeal to your apologist-friends to contact you and to tell you to stop and go on a retreat and also to get some Christian Mental Health Counseling

VC:

Jimmy Akin wrote: ““In other words, one can in one moment say, “Yahoo! Osama bin Laden is dead!” and in the next moment say, “Lord, have mercy on his soul!”

I’m not seeing a lot of daylight between what he’s saying and what I’m saying.  Yet, for some reason you are filled with rage at what I’m saying while keeping mum about Jimmy’s common sense remarks.  I don’t see what’s self-righteous about thinking the (very likely) damnation of a soul for whom Christ died is something to mourn, while at the same time feeling as though being rid of a murderer who posed an ongoing danger to the world is something to feel glad about.  Do you never have mixed emotions?  Have you never experienced the Church’s teaching as a check on your natural impulses?  Is life really that simple for you?

Mark Shea, if you do not think the Lord has used the righteous to unceremoniously and mercilessly destroy evil then you are a pretender to knowing biblical history.  Such is the case of religious liberals who remain cloistered in their ivory towers.  This is a wake up call for the Human Resources Dept. of the National Catholic Register to perform a new background check of your academic credentials.  Your ilk will find greater acceptance in Madison, WI or Berkeley, CA.

I applaud the statement from the Vatican. I’m still reminded of all the Arab press accounts celebrating the events of 9/11; it would have been nice if the Muslim clergy had prefaced some statement as to how good muslims should act.
    It was bad enough that our own press showed people around the U.S. celebrating the death of Bin Laden. Arabs probably think we were all celebrating like this.

Yes.  I’m familiar with the Old Testament, NO.  I’m also familiar with the New Testament parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.  As I say, I believe in Just War and have no problem with killing bin Laden.  He was our enemy and we had every right to kill him.  We don’t, however, have any right to hate him or wish his damnation.  Christ died for him too.  If that’s scandalous to you, then I suggest that you review the teaching of the New Testament and the Church.  It is Jesus, not me, that says we must love our enemies and pray for them.

@Mark Shea - Bravo!!! It is absolutely frightening to read some of the comments posted. To all those who disagreed with you - Christ died for ALL including bin Laden whether he knew it or not! As Christians we DO NOT and SHOULD NOT rejoice in the death of anyone! Osama bin Laden has now seen the face of Christ and received his just reward. God alone determined that. Not you, not me nor anyone else. We mourn for all those that lost their lives at the hands of bin Laden and we trust their souls to the mercy of God. We should feel sadness at the prospect of even one soul being so lost and spending eternity separated from God regardless of who that person may be. To think any other way is not compatible with calling oneself a Christian.

Dear Mr. Shea. You said that we had to mourn the death of Pol Pot and everyone else who died.

And you also said you desired to bury Bin Laden in bacon.

Can it be rationally claimed that one can both mourn the death of another while calling for the body of the one being mourned to be be subjected to such hateful humiliation publicly and broadcast to the entire world?

And because you can not see the insane incongruity of these two thoughts (or you are too prideful to take-back what you said ) you are now accusing me of being filled with rage in an obvious attempt to change the subject.

First, you accused me of spending so much energy and now comes your accusation I am filled with rage.

Please get some good Christian Mental Health Counseling and go on retreat. You are ruining your reputation with your recent irrational, unbalanced, incongruent, and insane commentary and you may as well stop trying your subject-changing tactics with me. It will not work

I am merely going by what you have said publicly within the time period of less than a week all the while you are castigating others for statements and actions that pale in comparison to what you have said.

I truly hope your apologist-friends are trying to get you to stop what you are doing. I have never ever seen any other apologist dig himself such character-damaging holes as you have recently dug online.

Stop digging, sir.

Here’s what the Pope said about the death penalty. A Catholic (like I do) can approve of the death penalty and be fine. For OBL, it’s justice, and it complies with the centuries - old teachings of the Catholic Church
“3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

We don’t really know that Bin Laden died unrepentant.  We don’t any of us know the state of his soul before God.  Nobody knows what happens between the soul and God in the moment of death.  We only know that he is dead…and we know what the media tells us.

You said that we had to mourn the death of Pol Pot and everyone else who died.

Can it be rationally claimed that one can both mourn the death of another while calling for the body of the one being mourned to be be subjected to such hateful humiliation publicly and broadcast to the entire world?
Perhaps not to your satisfaction.  But to the person capable of grasping normal social, emotional and affective cues, I don’t think it’s really all that hard to understand the tension one feels between “Good riddance” to a monster like bin Laden and the duty one feels to our Lord’s command to love one’s enemy, especially one’s enemy in dire danger of damnation.  I feel both.  I don’t claim it’s rational.  I claim it’s normal and human.

You seem to bent on winning some sort of trial in which you are the prosecution.  I hope that makes you happy, VC.  Meanwhile, I still don’t see much daylight between what I’m saying and what Jimmy’s saying.  But you don’t seem interested in addressing that, just in trying to gin up some imaginary mob of “apologist friends” (we all knock back beers together on Friday nights) to do an intervention because I’m a normal person with conflicted emotions.

Mary M writes:  “To think any other way is not compatible with calling oneself a Christian.”    You will now show us where the often savage and brutally detailed work against all the enemies of Israel performed by Moses, Joshua, Aaron, Samson and David were not sanctioned and outlined by the Lord Himself.

The death of any human being diminishes all of us.
A good comment could be that I hope the Lord could
find a way to have him repent of his sins.
Love him who commits sins, hate sins themselves.
May the Lord have mercy on his eternal soul.

@ Vermont Crank - Why are you so angry? It sures looks like it was you and not Mark Shea who posted bin laden should be buried in bacon. Why don’t you get down to the real issues of why you are so angry at the Catholic Church? I don’t think you have been honest about it at all and are merely skirting around the issue and attacking others.

Mary M:

To be fair to VC, I was the one who wrote that.  I was recording my emotional reactions to bin Laden’s death and trying to work through the contrasts between that and the Church’s command to love our enemies.  VC, unfortunately, is the sort of person who doesn’t have especially good skills at reading emotions and so is treating every word I said as evidence in a heresy trial in which he is judge, jury, and executioner.  Unfortunately, that means the thread has been hijacked by VC, who has turned it into a diatribe about me instead of letting it be what it was, a chance for people to process their reactions to killing bin Laden.  I’ll give him the last word in the hope that others will resume the original discussion.

There is a galactic distance between you saying that you desired to see Bin Laden buried in bacon on Global TV and insisting that everyone else had a duty to mourn even Pol Pot. (And yet you try and dismiss those vile and hateful words as “good riddance…”)

You can not do both if you have any sense of morality, congruity, and integrity.And there is a galactic distance between what you said and what Mr. Akin said

You can not continue to run around demanding everyone else do thus and such while you do exactly the opposite of what you are telling others to do and yet you try and defend what you have said as being normal.

No, what you said is not normal,especially for one who is known as an “apologist,” and if you can identify one other apologist who publicly published such hateful and vile desires then I will be shocked.

What you thought was not normal. It was vile and hateful and your failure to even see that is a sign of a significant intellectual incongruity.

You do need professional mental health, Mr. Shea. And if your apologist-friends are not warning you to quit what you are doing then they are doing you no favors. I am not speaking about you and some of your Buds throwing-down some Buds. I am speaking about professional Mental Health Counseling.

You need Professional Help and an Ignatian Retreat.

And now, I am done with you on this thread. I gave you opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to admit there is no defense for what you said and to take-back what you said but you just doggedly deny, dither, delay, and try to deflect from what you said.

It is really quite sad.

Adios

You will now show us where the often savage and brutally detailed work against all the enemies of Israel performed by Moses, Joshua, Aaron, Samson and David were not sanctioned and outlined by the Lord Himself.

So are you in favor of adopting Bronze Age rules of engagement?  Do you think we should kill every man, woman, child, sheep and goat in countries at war with us?  Do you favor stoning adulterers and homosexuals and smart alec teens here at home?  People who appeal to the OT as though it is the final word on Christian morality never seem to get around to answering these questions.  They often just seem to skip over the Church’s Just War teaching and talk as though it is self-evident that the Old Testament can easily be grafted on to current events.  And they are often so very certain of their own courage as they sit at their laptops and declare others to be cowards when they suggest that the Church’s teaching might have something to contribute to the conversation.  People who can’t even work up the courage to sign their names to what they write arraigning others as cowards.  Funny that.  I call it virtual courage.

@New Observer - Mary M writes:  “To think any other way is not compatible with calling oneself a Christian.”  You will now show us where the often savage and brutally detailed work against all the enemies of Israel performed by Moses, Joshua, Aaron, Samson and David were not sanctioned and outlined by the Lord Himself. Jesus gave us a new commandment “To love one another as we love ourselves”. This is the “law” of the New Testament.

Dear Mary M. I am a faithful Catholic and I have not been attacking Mr. Shea. I have been calling him to account for what he said.

Because you have not exhibited any evidence of afflatus, I have no response to your confused idea abut my putative anger towards The Catholic Church.

There is no evidence of anger in my post in response to Mr. Shea. There is a a lot of evidence of tenacity and sticking-to-the-point but that ought not be construed as anger.

As for my"hijacking” of the thread, I can understand why Mr. Shea interprets it that way. It is never comfortable to be confronted in public and what I have been doing is trying to get him to admit that what he said was wrong but instead of doing that he accuse me of this that and the other thing.

First, I was spending too much time; then, I was filled with rag; and the latest accusation is that I am conducting a heresy trial.

Deny, delay, distract,,and now the detach from the dialogue with the implied threat of banning.

Quite sad. Quite sad.

No need to ban me on this thread. I will disengage as it is evident you are not man enough to admit you erred

VC:

For those with the ability to read normal social, emotional and affective cues, saying, “And, in any case, my mutterings were a pipe dream (and known to be so when I muttered them) since OBL’s last rites are already history.  It’s best that cooler heads than mine have prevailed on this point, since ticking off the Muslim crocodile, while it might deter from terrorism against us, will likely result in Muslim bullies beating up Christians in Pakistan” is an admission that burying OBL in bacon is neither a good, virtuous, or smart wish.  However, lacking these, you evidently are now launched on your life mission of keeping alive forever the memory of the Sacred Smart Alec Remark and warning the world of the Madman of Seattle and his conflict feelings about the death of bin Laden.  May your Sacred Quest bring you joy.  And may your third Adios really be your last.

The decision to bury OBL at sea was made, we were told, in order that his burial site not become a shrine to his menory. The site of the World Trade Center has become a shrine to the memory of the victims of the 9/11/2001 attack.  Will not the compound where OBL was killed become his shrine?  Even if the compound buildings are leveled, the site will be considered his shrine by his followers.  True?

Mark, by now you must’ve wondered what’s got Vermont Crank all ... well, uh, cranked up. This sentence should be a pretty solid clue, and since he wasn’t water-boarded to get it out of him, it should stand as unimpeachable testimony to his crankyness.
  “The Phillies will win the World Series That is not due to a mystic power but a rational assessment…” There’s hope for the man; at least he’s not a Red Sox fan like so many of his fellow Green Mountain boyos up there in BERNIE SANDERS COUNTRY. But the fact he believes the Fillies will beat the New York Yankees or any of the other teams they have to play against in the AL in the Fall Classic (should the Yanks have a mediocre year)is definitely a red flag. Another explanation could be where he lives in Vermont. If his domicile is anywhere near the Vermont Yankee plant in Brattleboro, that could possibly give a clear indication as to what’s bothering him enough to call himself Vermont Crank.
  On the other hand, living waaaaaay up beyond the chic-y Queeche Gorge, Burlington, Stowe etc.—waaaay up in the Northeast Kingdom, and wishing he could (afford) to live in that bastion of “free” enterprise, the Mississippi of New England, that gawwdforsaken patch of forlorn real estate between Vermont, Maine and Massachusetts, ah yes, a land only Nikki Haley, Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan and Eric Cantor could admire, that “Live Free or Die” state ... that would get to anybody. Even the late Mr. Rogers could become mighty wicked New England Swamp Yankee mean in a heartbeat.
  I don’t think Vermont Crank has a mean bone in his body, though. Maybe he’s just bored, especially if he gets cable and all he watches, save for EWTN, is Fox News Channel and scours ESPN for news of the Fillies representing that City of Brotherly (LOL) Love in the “Nationalist” League. Or he just wishes the rest of us would think like him and people in his REALLY favorite state; NEW HAMPSHIRE.
  Not easy being a Swamp Yankee; ayuh?

First I was spending too much time…

Then I was filed with rage….

Then I was conducting a heresy trial…

Now, I am on a life long long mission of keeping alive the memory of the sacred smart alec remark….

And all the while I kept to the specific point and I kept quoting your words I and I kept saying they were intellectually incongruent and insane and you could not distract me. Too bad, brother :)

My third adios was going to be my last but I just can’t get enough of your silly attempts to try and make me be seen as the one with the problem; the one who is mentally disturbed. 

Well, I am not the one who came in into this May(hem) roaring like a self-righteous lion and left like a lamb bleating distractions and bleeding reputation.

It is never your problem, is it, sir?  It is the entire world that is out of step with you.

I can’t wait to see what your next attempt at distraction will be. Maybe you will bury my rage-filled responses in bacon and put them on trial as an insane Sacred Quest.

Who knows?

What I do know is that you are not man enough to admit it when you are wrong and so, being a man, I will let you have the last word

Dear Steven. I well remember driving my Father-in-law’s DeLorean up over a hill and seeing laid-out before me the blue-black waters of Lake Memphremagog. Me and The Bride, born in Perkinsville (population 98) Vt. were headed for a second honeymoon in old quebec.

Those of us born in the hills of Vermont have the identifiable moxie (why else would Solzhenitsyn have moved there?) that others, naturally, envy :)

It was suggested, many times, that I be bagged and hauled oft to the Brattleboro Retreat but because I have eaten so many Lobsters that were raised in the Spent Fuel Rod Containment Pool at the Seabrook Nuke Plant that I give off a certain reddish glow that keeps others a safe distance away.

My third adios was going to be my last

For this relief, much thanks. - Hamlet, Act I, scene 1.

but I just can’t get enough of your silly attempts to try and make me be seen as the one with the problem; the one who is mentally disturbed.

I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw. - Hamlet, Act II, scene 2.

Mr. Shea writes:  “They often just seem to skip over the Church’s Just War teaching and talk as though it is self-evident that the Old Testament can easily be grafted on to current events.”    National defense and obtaining justice for victims is a responsibility of government and one that is biblical.  The OT reflects how the Lord commanded and directed Israel to confront evil.  Many do not like the OT because it was too bloody.  If Christianity were to abound, we would not be having this discussion.  Unfortunately, satanic evil exists and even modern day followers of Christ are called to exercise justice for the living as well as the dead.  At least OBL got a burial reflective of the decency of the United States.  There are 1,126 families of 911 who never received a body to bury.  Some families only received a few token body parts.

New Observer:

You keep talking as though I have somewhere proclaimed that I am a pacifist instead of repeatedly stating I agree with Just War doctrine and have no problem with killing bin Laden.  I keep having the sensation that you are arguing with somebody else and then somehow putting my name into your replies.  What Mary M said was not that war was intrinsically unjust but that “We should feel sadness at the prospect of even one soul being so lost and spending eternity separated from God regardless of who that person may be. To think any other way is not compatible with calling oneself a Christian.”  She was speaking of wishing one’s enemy in hell, not of defeating one’s enemy in battle.  Somehow, you turned that into an attempt to cancel the Old Testament.  Now, when I point out that attempts to pit the OT and NT against one another are bunk, you talk as though it’s yet another attempt to cancel the OT.  I don’t get that.

May I ask: did you lose someone on 9/11? I get the sense (perhaps wrong), that you did. If so, please accept my sincere condolences.

Yes, I’m personally glad that Bin Laden is dead.  Too bad it did not happen sooner, just like it’s a tragedy that Hitler wasn’t assassinated years before he blew his brains out in the bunker!  I don’t see the need to make a big theological issue out of it!  He got what he deserved.  There’s is a heaven and hell.  Bin Laden knows that now.

Re: “So it has been announced that Osama bin Laden is dead. Good.”

Perhaps not.

An old, sick man was shot to death in his living room in front of his family. At the time of his death he was residing in a friendly country allied to our own. The old, sick man was also a subject of another friendly country also allied to our own. Yet the men who shot the old man to death were US Service Members. They (apparently) had entered the friendly, allied country without the knowledge and consent of its government.

The U.S. Service members also acted without a Court order to arrest the old man. They (apparently) made no attempt to take the old man into custody. As I write there is no evidence that the US Service Members had to fight their way into the old man’s home; or that they even met any resistance. The Service members entered the old man’s home with the sole purpose of killing him. They accomplished that purpose. 

The Church teaches us that we have, under certain conditions, a right; and sometimes even a duty to exercise self defense. However at the time of his death there was no evidence that UBL was exercising any command or control function over Al Qaedi. He was, alive, no longer a threat to the USA. Dead he may very well turn into a martyr and resume being a threat to our country. We could pay a very steep price in blood for the life of one old Arab. 

We loose more Americans every day at the hands of abortionists than were murdered by UBL in 10-years. Certainly those who live by the sword, like UBL, can expect to die by it. But revenge is God’s right. Not our own.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

I agree with Staci. The shoot first ask questions later approach is not something we should be applauding. As christians and americans we shouldn’t be happy about anyone’s death, no matter how bad of a person they are. I understand that he was responsible for the deaths of many people and I whole-heartedly agree that he should’ve been tried in court and punished for his crimes against humanity. But breaking into his house in the middle of the night and shooting him in the head was not the only option. If they were able to drag his body out of there, why couldn’t they have extracted him alive? These are highly trained operatives and I’m sure they could’ve done that. If any other country in the world did this we would be the first to condemn them. Revenge is never a good thing and that’s what it feels like to me. Don’t get me wrong I agree that he deserved punishment, but I guess it’s just the way it was carried out was very shady.

Please pray for him.  I dont want to see anyone go to hell.  We put Jesus on cross and we need to be merciful just as Jesus did for us.  Please fast, pray the rosary with all of your heart, go to mass as much as possible, go to monthly confession and read the holy bible.  God bless all of you.

Proud of our military who accomplished this dispite having such a dunce for a president…........ as for Mark Shea, we should all be glad people like him are not in our goverment since he call’s waterboarding torture and we found out about the courier through waterbourding which has saved countless lives by preventing terrorist attacks. He should be writing for the Huffington Post rather than National Catholic Register

Re: Torture and Vengeance as the New American Way

“Proud of our military who accomplished this”

Yup. Shot an old, sick man to death in front of his family. And made a martyr out of him to boot. Something to be proud of indeed.

“as for Mark Shea, we should all be glad people like him are not in our goverment”

I sure am glad. Mr. Shea is evil.

“since he call’s waterboarding torture”

Actually it is our government which has forbidden water boarding as inhumane and counter productive. See US Army Field Manual 34-52.

and we found out about the courier through waterbourding”

Of course we did. And it only took our official government torturers 10-years (and thousands of bodies to practice on)to find out where one old, sick man was hiding.

“which has saved countless lives by preventing terrorist attacks.”

Wonder why we never tortured Huns, Krauts, Japs, Nazis and Commies? And how did we win those wars without water boarding and without official US Government torturers on the payroll?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Are those of you who are “jumping for joy” at bin Laden’s death and verbally attacking Mark Shea Christian or someone who gets a thrill posting inflammatory comments on a Catholic blog. If you are Christian it’s time for you to revisit what it really means to be one.

bin laden was a horrible man but he was still a child of god. he made bad descicions and i believe he should go to hell. but god may have other plans for him… and i really hope the nuke isn’t real. if it is i hope we find it real soon

“Neither does being a Christian mean supporting the perpetrators of evil over the victims of evil, which the Catholic Church is doing more and more in its official statements”

No it is not.

“Why do I believe (and, frankly, hope) that bin Laden is in Hell?”

We cannot hope that anyone is in Hell - even a New York Yankees

If you and those who think like you really want to do something Christian, Mary, why don’t you pray for the conversion of living Muslims?

It is a most Christian act to pray for the dead - especially for our enemies.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@ Joseph D’Hippolito - “Mary, being a Christian does not mean being stupid; it means using wisdom and discernment in moral matters.” You are absolutely right about that JD’H! However, your views are neither wise nor moral from a Christian perspective and frankly more in line with someone who would be spending their time reading the Huffington Post or the New York Times rather than posting on the National Catholic Register. The Catholic Church speaks for Christ and if you do not support that, then I suppose it would be fair to say that you do not support what Christ has to say on this subject. That’s certainly your choice but don’t attack “authentic” Christians when they disagree with you. They are reinforcing what Christ has to say on this matter as understood by the Catholic Church.

Joseph D’Hippolito - Ah, you finally revealed your true colors!!!
“Richard, I hope bin Laden is in Hell for the same reason that I hope Hitler, Mao, Khomeini and others like them are in Hell: For murdering the innocent. Apparently, that doesn’t hold a lot of weight with you or with a lot of the other “Catholics” on this blog. No matter; that’s just another sign that this apostate Church is ripe for divine judgement.”

I’m not bursting a seam contrary to you inaccurate assessment of me but I do know that the Catholic Church speaks for Christ and I will always defend that. If I were you I would seriously think about who is in fact a member of an apostate church. It’s not me or any of the other Catholics who have supported the Church’s teaching. Why do you waste everyone’s time when you are merely a “Catholic basher”. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ whether you believe it or not and it’s truly sad that you have not truly understood who she is and what her history is that she can make that claim.

“Richard, I hope bin Laden is in Hell for the same reason that I hope Hitler, Mao, Khomeini and others like them are in Hell: For murdering the innocent. Apparently, that doesn’t hold a lot of weight with you or with a lot of the other “Catholics” on this blog. No matter; that’s just another sign that this apostate Church is ripe for divine judgement.”

Christ has commanded us not only to love both our neighbor and our enemy; but also to pray for them. We cannot love them if we “hope” they are in Hell (God forbid!); or if we refuse to pray of the repose of their immortal souls. As followers of Christ we have to pray for the souls of “Hitler, Mao, Khomeini and others like them” - even New York Yankees.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@ Joe D’H - You have been fed misinformation by someone. Just what Church, if any, are you a member of? And, how would you know who we are praying for? Can you hear our prayers? I think you have an “issue” with Mark that has nothing to do with this topic at all. You are screaming at him in your posts as evidenced by your all capped and bolded comments. Why don’t you tell all of us what your issue is with the Catholic Church and stop this ranting about bin Laden.

“Richard, your comments only apply to the living. What good is it to pray for the evil dead?”

We are all sinners. At the time of death only God knows whether a soul (other than that of a declared Saint)has ended up in heaven, hell or purgatory. Both Judas and UBL may be suffering in purgatory as I write. We have an obligation to pray and make sacrifices for the souls in purgatory.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

“Bin Laden is dead. The innocent have one less enemy. For that, I thank and praise God. I wish some of you would do the same.”

He may be dead. We simply do not know. And his death, both its timing and manner, may very well result in the deaths of further innocents. We have created a martyr.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

“Richard, if you seriously believe that a holy, righteous God will forgive the unrepentant who not only commit evil against the innocent but misuse God’s name to justify it, then you are a moral idiot.”

Only God knows if UBL repented of his mortal sins before his death. Let us hope so. Apparetnly he was shot to deatyh before anyone hada chance to ask him.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

“If your description of church teaching is accurate (and, frankly, I doubt that it is), then Catholicism is truly evil and deserves nothing but divine judgement.”

The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ with Christ as its Head. It cannot be evil.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@Joe - “Mary M., regarding this topic and prayer, all I know is what I see…and what I see on this thread and others like it is far more concern for an unrepentant, evil mastermind than for his victims or his co-religionists. As far as the Cathoic Church is concerned, read some history.” JD’H, I don’t know where you get your ideas or information from but it is seriously flawed. To be a follower of Christ means that we, as Christ does, care for ALL OF HUMANITY. None are more or less precious in the eyes of God regardless of our sins or lack thereof. God is love. God loves the sinner but not the sin and He is forever calling us to His perfect love. By the way you still haven’t said what church you belong to or you just concerned with reading anything that bashes the Catholic Church to support your views that the Catholic Church is evil. I would suggest that you read history from a reliable source. REPENTENCE is required and I don’t know where you get the idea that “we” are not saying it is not.  The point is this, WE DO NOT KNOW IF BIN LADEN, HITLER OR JUDAS or ANYONE WHO HAS DIED REPENTED BEFORE THEY TOOK THEIR LAST BREATH. Only God knows that. If they refused God’s mercy they themselves chose to be separated from God forever.

Re. Richard W.    Our Lord does not expect us to be a bunch of spinless weenies, we have a resposibilities to protect the innocent.  We do not use torture, waterboarding is not torture. I have family members in the military who who have met special ops. who have experienced waterboarding in training, it’s not pleasant, but it’s not torture, it works, valuable infoirmation has been obtained through this form of interragation.  Also, you keep calling bin laden an old sick man, he was 54, I’m 60 and don’t consider myself old. I’m sure he was still calling some shots and planning attacks, that’s all he was about.

Re: US Government has prohibited water boarding as counter productive

Torture is the act of a coward. As an interrogation technique it is also counter productive. This is not my opinion. It is US Department of Defense doctrine. (See FM 34-52) Said doctrine by Executive Order is now the standard for all federal Agencies. Water boarding as an interrogation technique is cited by name in FM 34-52 and is also prohibited as counter productive. Any man who led the life UBL led in the third world is old and sick at 54. The latest reports indicate that there was no resistance to the raid on his compound and that UBL was shot down while unarmed in front of his family. There is also no evidence (nor claim by USG) that UBL exercised any command and control function over AL Qaeda at the time of his death. This action by our government appears to have been an act of revenge pure and simple. Our government has created a martyr. We will pay for this in blood.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Dear Mr. D’Hippoloto. You say:“No matter; that’s just another sign that this apostate Church is ripe for divine judgement.” 

Your statement is just another way of saying that the promises of Jesus are untrustworthy. He established His Church and promised to be with it until the end of time and He sent the Holy Spirit upon it to teach it all truth and yet you say it is an apostate Church.

All you are doing is standing in opposition to Bible, Church, and Tradition. Good luck with all of that.

And you might want to mediate on this:

2 john:  “Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.”

As despicable a human being as Bin Laden was, there is no evidence that he did not follow The Koran and The Sira and the Hadiths far more closely and far more faithfully then you follow the Bible, Tradition and the Church our Lord and Saviour established.

Dear Mr. Comerford. You failed to note that the Navy Seals didn’t have a Search Warrant; and they prolly disturbed the peace what with all the helicopter racket and gun fire; and there is also the problem of littering to be considered because the Seals blew-up a Helicopter and scatterred metal around and angered the Pakis who won’t let the EPA Super Fund Team in to clean-up the area; and speaking of the Pakis, the seals were clearly tresspassing..

Yes. There were many many many things that were not up to snuff.

Still, we snuffed-out an evil murdering terrorist, so, we got that going for us, which is nice.

Dear Mr Comerford. You say; “We cannot love them if we “hope” they are in Hell (God forbid!); or if we refuse to pray of the repose of their immortal souls.”

Really? Read this paragraph;

“According to the CIA World Factbook, as of July, 2005, there were approximately 6,446,131,400 people on the planet, and the death rate was approximately 8.78 deaths per 1,000 people a year. According to our nifty desktop calculator, that works out to roughly 56,597,034 people leaving us every year. That’s about a 155,000 a day.”

and tell me truly that you pray,every day, for the repose of the souls on 155,000 total strangers.  I know you don’t. Nobody does but by your standard neither you, or anybody else, loves them.

RE: we snuffed-out an evil murdering terrorist

The word “murder” rather than “snuff” may now be appropriate. It appears that there was no resistance to the raid. No weapons have been found in the compound. Yet men and women were still shot down in cold blood by US Service Members. The lost helicopter, apparently a top secret prototype, was not properly destroyed and its secrets protected. The raid is now beginning to look like a rather shoddy affair. In all of this it has been forgotten that Private First Class Bowe Bergdahl is still a prisoner. Did anyone think how this act may effect him? We have to fight smarter.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: The Communion of Saints

“and tell me truly that you pray,every day, for the repose of the souls on 155,000 total strangers.  I know you don’t. Nobody does but by your standard neither you, or anybody else, loves them.”

“Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen”. Christians pray for a holy death for themselves and other souls (even New York Yankees) every time they (among other things)attend daily Mass, pray their Rosary or make their Morning Offering. The Catholic Church teaches us to love our neighbor. It recommends and encourages this pious practice.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

After decades of happy-clappy funerals, white vestments, joke-riddled eulogies, and “Ode to Joy” as recessional, why the sudden change?

Dear Mr Comerford. The Catholic Church includes those who approve the killing of blood-thirsty terrorist (please consult a Catholic Commentary that can teach you the difference twixt justified killing and murder) and those of the Dorothy Day/Fr Charles Emanuel types.

And when the Dorothy Day/Fr Charles Emmanuel types begin to talk sense, then maybe they can attract an audience. As it is now, your quibbling is off-putting to most men.

As it stands now, you are a Deather who is on a crusade to denounce the actions of a brave POTUS and The Navy Seals.

BTW, if you think you can convince me you are praying the Hail Mary every single day for the more than 150,000 who die every single day then you have a vivid imagination and a wildly over-valued view of your own self :)

Dear Mr Comerford, maybe you meant 1st Timothy? (But that is about The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass)

I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:

Notes & Commentary:

Ver. 1. Intercessions, as in the Protestant translation. If men’s intercessions to God in favour of others, are no injury to Christ, as our mediator, how can it be any injury to Christ for the Angels and saints in heaven to pray or intercede to God for us? (Witham)—- St. Augustine writes thus on this verse: By supplications are meant what are said before the consecration. By prayers, are what are said in and after the consecration and communion, at mass, including the Pater Noster[the Our Father]; which St. Jerome also says, our Lord taught his apostles to recite at the daily sacrifice of his body. (lib. iii. contra Pelag. chap. 5) By intercessions, what are said after the communion: and by thanksgivings, what both the priest and people give to God for so great a mystery then offered and received. (ep. 50. ad Paulin.) See St. Chrysostom on this place

As someone who lost someone close to me in the South Tower, I have mixed feelings about this…while I am certainly relieved that al-Qaeda has been dealt the most serious blow since 9/11 and that the world is probably a more safer place in the grand scheme of things, I am not giving out candy to the children of my neighborhood like my muslim neighbors did on the morning of 9/11, nor do I feel like doing cartwheels on my roof for a simple yet unmentioned reason thus far - the death of Osama can never bring my friend’s life back to me or anyone else’s who died that day.
I suppose others in my shoes might agree after some time of prayerful reflection is taken. The only thing this really drives home is how much peace is needed on the earth starting with God and myself, my family, and my community, then country, and the rest of the world - and that the only means by which it is accomplished is through leaning on Divine Mercy.

@Michael - Beautifully said!

Dear Mr Comerford..Every word you wrote beginning with “Any” is wrong; and wildly wrong.

“Any man who led the life UBL led in the third world is old and sick at 54. The latest reports indicate that there was no resistance to the raid on his compound and that UBL was shot down while unarmed in front of his family. There is also no evidence (nor claim by USG) that UBL exercised any command and control function over AL Qaeda at the time of his death. This action by our government appears to have been an act of revenge pure and simple. Our government has created a martyr. We will pay for this in blood.”

Why do you think he built his compound where he did?  You think THAT area is third-world?  You are a lunatic. It was because the location provided him easy access to food and medical treatment (try googling his joint and surrounding hospitals etc).

There is absolutely no evidence he was in frail health.

The Paki Military, or “Deep State” (see Mr Steve Sailer at isteve.com), was providing security. THey failed to do so in this case because they failed to consider the brave tactics of our Navy Seals.

We won’t pay for this in blood. Al Qaeda is over and Al Zawhat’shisface? is the next creep with a target on his chest. Yeah, I hope we kill that bastid also.

It is sickening to see you give the benefit of the doubt to a blood-thirsty terrorist while try to gin-up sympathy for him at the same time you rashly attack American Heroes.

If I thought you had any influence I’d demand the Govt treat you as the traitor you are.

@Vermont Crank -  You have “issues” with the Catholic Church so you attack anyone who defends the teachings of the Church or shows any type of compassion for another human being. Is it really necessary to be so verbally abusive to get a point across. You just don’t get it. Very sad!

RE: Prayer

“BTW, if you think you can convince me you are praying the Hail Mary every single day for the more than 150,000 who die every single day then you have a vivid imagination and a wildly over-valued view of your own self”

The Church encourages us to pray every day for the whole world. (See the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy).

God bless

Richard W Comerford

We find it interesting that the Administration has been constantly changing its account of the events surrounding the death of Osama bin Laden to accomodate what plays well in Peoria, as well as Islamabad.  As such, it seems to us to be a waste of time to comment on the situation until the Truth is revealed.  As we said on Tuesday, May 3rd at 1:15 PM, only “time will tell.”  However, we do believe that this is a TEACHING MOMENT and, as such, it is important for the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium, to clearly define the differences between homicide in a “just-war” situation and unjustifyable homicide, so that,  when the Truth is revealed, we can correctly evaluate these events.

Re: Self Defense

“The Catholic Church includes those who approve the killing of blood-thirsty terrorist”

The Church teaches that we have under certain circumstances the right to use force against an in defense of innocent human life. Killing defenseless men and women in cold blood is not one of those circumstances.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: On Courage

“As it stands now, you are a Deather who is on a crusade to denounce the actions of a brave POTUS and The Navy Seals.”

Based on reports available there was not anything particularly heroic or intelligent about this action.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: On treason

“If I thought you had any influence I’d demand the Govt treat you as the traitor you are.”

Our government apparently disagrees with you. However our faith is in Christ and not Caesar.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Someone please tell me what is so terrible about death. Seriously. Is this life on earth so great that and death is so terrible that we never wish to see anyone die. Ever?  Why?  Death means meeting God face to face.

God told us that everyone dies and life on earth is only temporary.  So why not be happy when someone dies?  Life on earth is difficult, unfair, filled with pain and a lot of spiritual hunger.

I’m happy too see Bin Laden removed from this earth because he was a source of so much human suffering and pain. I am happy that he died and is with God. I am happy that he no longer walks this earth. I’m happy that he met God fact to face.  Let God sort out the soul stuff. 

Everyone dies. It’s a fact of life. Death is not a terrible thing. It’s the way our spirits get to the next phase of life. Death can be a very good thing.

Dear Mary M. Feel free, at any time, to state what are the “issues” I have with The Catholic Church.  I maintain the Bonds of unity in worship, doctrine, and authority and I do not deny one single doctrine.

FDear Mr Comerford. LOL Keep trying, you’ll, eventually, settle on some prayer that will prove your point.

In the meantime keep trying to defend Bin Laden and attack American Heroes.

Even those who hate Obama admit the Navy Seals acted heroically. But, not you. No, your standards are too ethereal. And no intelligence involved either. Hmm

Try to get over it, sir, Bin Bin is in the Dustbin of history and nobody cafes that you were not consulted for your personal approval of what happened.

Re: The Communion of Saints II

“you’ll, eventually, settle on some prayer that will prove your point.”

The point is that the Church, in her wisdom, provides us with many daily prayer practices wherein we pray for the entire world and teh repose of souls.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: Heroism

This was no Son Tay Raid. In this case the raiders flew into a friendly, allied country. They assaulted an undefended compound. They shot down defenseless men and women in cold blood. They then flew off again but not before leaving behind a a largely intact, top secret, prototype helicopter. They arrived and murdered a washed up, sick old man. They left behind a martyr. The USA cannot afford too many more heroic victories like this one.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@Brother Robert Anthony who posted:  “However, we do believe that this is a TEACHING MOMENT and, as such, it is important for the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium, to clearly define the differences between homicide in a “just-war” situation ...”

And whom is the “we” you are speaking for—-if not only yourself?

My hope is that you are not saying the war on terror is not “just.”  Innocent people do die in war—including our own.  Perhaps you have forgotten the WTC deaths in 1993, hundreds killed at our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, the USS Cole deaths in 2000, and the murder of 12 and 31 wounded at Fort Hood in Texas 18 months ago.  Where is their justice?  The Church and Magisterium are not in charge of the United States government—thank God for that.  Catholics and Christians alike make up our government including the Special Operations forces.  “Catholic” CIA Chief Leon Panetta is really the architect of this kill while Obama will bask in the photo-op today at Ground Zero.  Maybe you want to report Panetta to your Bishop and to Rome as a candidate for excommunication.  The United States did not start this war.  Apparently you have conveniently forgotten that.

No doubt you would have preferred bin Laden have been read his Miranda rights.  Please go and hide back in the monastery from where you came because people with your mindset exist only to parade wearing vestments of finery with french cuffs while real men do the heavy lifting.

Vermont Crank,
Anybody who pens that kind of a reply to my rather regionalistic post can’t be all that much of a crank! And I’ll bet NH’s lobster fishing industry p.r. guys make sure that only the greenish-glowing lobbies are sent to very select People’s Green Oblasts like Amherst, Brookline, Cambridge, Northampton and Williamstown. At least two of ‘em, Amherst and Brookline, (hometown of Mike Dukakis), also declared themselves “Nuclear Free.” Thankfully one of the few things I commend the Reagan-era (“Peace Through Strength” policies) for, made it possible for those two towns to pass on what would’ve been killer property tax hikes to build those—one-size-covers-the-whole-town—blast-proof shields for Ivan’s nukes. It would’ve been a lot more expensive for Amherst with its UMass skyscrapers, including the world’s tallest library (28 stories) and five tall dorms, each topping off at 22 stories. It would’ve passed the hike the moment some teacher said kids could still attend school during a nuke strike and in a college-town, especially in New England, that’s secularly-speaking, sacrosanct. It’s “for the kids, y’know.”
  If the Chinese should get impatient or upset if we stiff them on our debt obligations, there won’t be any need to build a big shield. There’s always a local Wal-Mart.

@VC - “Dear Mary M. Feel free, at any time, to state what are the “issues” I have with The Catholic Church.  I maintain the Bonds of unity in worship, doctrine, and authority and I do not deny one single doctrine.” Really? So I guess when you make statements such as, “The Catholic Church includes those who approve the killing of a blood-thirsty terrorist” you are demonstrating your unity with the Church? or making comments such as “Al Qaeda is over and Al Zawhat’shisface? is the next creep with a target on his chest. Yeah, I hope we kill that bastid also.” As Catholics we don’t wish death upon anyone.
Here’s the paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church that speaks to this: 2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.”[96]. United to the Catholic Church? I don’t think so.

Re: Excommunication

“Catholic” CIA Chief Leon Panetta is really the architect of this kill while Obama will bask in the photo-op today at Ground Zero.  Maybe you want to report Panetta to your Bishop and to Rome as a candidate for excommunication.”

Mr. Panetta is a fanatical supporter of child murder. Mr. Bin Laden conspired to murder 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01. Mr. Panetta conspires to murder 4,000 Americans every day. Mr. Pannetta btw has absolutely no military or intelligence background. This may explain (if in fact Mr. Pannetta is the architect of the raid) why this raid is a disaster. (The architects of a raid should be the raiders themselves.)

We have to fight smart. We are fighting very, very stupidly - and immorally.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Dear Mr Comerford.

“In this case the raiders flew into a friendly, allied country. They assaulted an undefended compound. They shot down defenseless men and women in cold blood. They then flew off again but not before leaving behind a a largely intact, top secret, prototype helicopter. They arrived and murdered a washed up, sick old man”

You think the Pakis are our friends? With judgment like that it is no wonder you get everything else wrong.

THe military establishment surrounding him provided his defense. They just never expected we’d find out where they were hiding him and be in-and-out so rapidly.

THey kilt a terrorist face-to-face and did not bomb the place. Very intelligent and heroic. THey had to leave rapidly because the Pakis are not our friends. Duh!!!

They killed a middle-aged terrorist who continued to plot the murders of innocent men women and children. Because the bastid hid with his family, it was HE who put them in danger. But, of course,, you blame American heroes.

I actually almost feel sorta sorry for you. You are one seriously confused person.  You think it somehow Christian to minimise the threat of a Bin Laden, you continue to insist, with no evidence, that he was a frail old man, and you continue to attack the Navy Seals and their heroism.

You have not even the common decency to extend to the Navy Seals a moment of consideration for what they had to endure during their harrowing raid. THey did not know if the Pakis would discover their raid and retaliate against then and they did not know for sure what they would face inside the bloody terrorist’s place.

But none of that matters. You have noting but sympathy for a bloody mass-murdring terrorist and you have nothing but contempt for american heroes.

You, sir, are a moral monster.

I’ll let others respond to your venomous attacks against American Heroes and you and the other 3 persons in america who think like you can all go on a picnic together.

Dear Steven. LOL Hang in there.Spring will be there by August :)

“As Catholics we don’t wish death upon anyone.”

LOL Yeah, we do. We wish death upon terrorists. And we not only wish it, we bring it to them. At least Catholic men do and my wishing death on Al Zwaht’shisface is not about hatred. I love him enough to want him killed so he will stop murdering innocents. Thats Catholic, baby.

See St Bernard, Doctor of the Church and Pope Urban II, for starters.

Oh, and by the eway. what do you think all those Catholic men were doing the nigjt prior to the Battle of lepanto?

They were having their confessions heard by Catholic Priests who wished them success in killing the Muslims. They did not spend their night praying for their enemies. They spent their night preparing how best to kill them. And the next day, Mary intervened and the wind suddenly, miraculously, shifted 180 degrees.

That must mean Mary aint Catholic.

I don’t deny the distaff members of The Catholic Church their pacifism. In return, maybe you could try and stop denying what faithful Catholic men have done for over 2000 years. The first gentile convert was a Military man.

Put that in your peace-pipe and smoke it.

@Vermont Crank - “As Catholics we don’t wish death upon anyone.”
LOL Yeah, we do. We wish death upon terrorists.” Proof this comment of yours “Catholics wish death upon terrorists.” This is the official statement from the Vatican. Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi, S.J., released the following statement regarding the death of Osama bin Laden:Osama bin Laden, as we all know, bore the most serious responsibility for spreading divisions and hatred among populations, causing the deaths of innumerable people, and manipulating religions for this purpose. In the face of a man’s death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred.” Funny, but I didn’t see anything in there about Catholics wishing death upon terrorists. Give it up Vermont Crank. We can all see through your anti-Catholic rhetoric.You’re not fooling anyone; maybe just yourself. You just sound ignorant and filled with hate neither of which is commendable.

Re: Self Defense III

“THey kilt a terrorist face-to-face and did not bomb the place. Very intelligent and heroic.”

The Church does not allow us to kill in either revenge or in a preemptive manner. Mr. Bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot to death in cold blood. Indeed (reportedly) not a single weapon (other than a plastic water pistol) was found in the compound. If the reports are true then Mr. Bin Laden was murdered. There is nothing heroic or patriotic about murder.

God bless

Richard W Comerofrd

Re: Did “St Bernard, Doctor of the Church and Pope Urban II” teach us to wish for the deaths of Muslims?

Short Answer: No.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@ Richard W. Comerford —you are referencing Catholic CIA Chief Leon Panetta’s time in Congress representing most of Monterey County, CA prior to joining the Clinton administration where he supported abortion rights.
There is no record of the Monterey diocese admonishing Panetta then for his pro-choice votes thus it would be hypocritical of the church to admonish him now for his part in the OBL kill.

Our Seal Team was not on an Easter Egg Hunt and the reports say OBL did not attempt to raise his hands and surrender.  Despite what the Catholic Catechism might say, this was a righteous takedown of a moral evil.  They were not arresting a bank robber but Satan personified.

Re: Excommunication II

“There is no record of the Monterey diocese admonishing Panetta then for his pro-choice votes thus it would be hypocritical of the church to admonish him now for his part in the OBL kill.”

The failure of one Bishop to admonish a sinner for a particular sin does not excuse the failure of a second Bishop to admonish the same sinner regarding another mortal sin.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: “a righteous takedown of a moral evil”

“Our Seal Team was not on an Easter Egg Hunt and the reports say OBL did not attempt to raise his hands and surrender.  Despite what the Catholic Catechism might say, this was a righteous takedown of a moral evil.”

It is a violation of the UCMJ for a US Service Member, under any conditions, to intentionally kill an unarmed man who is not an immediate threat to innocent human life. More importantly it is a violation of the 5th Commandment. Such an act, objectively speaking, places the immortal soul of the shooter in jeopardy.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@ Richard W Comerford,  No doubt then we can rely upon the National Council of Catholic Bishops to issue a formal letter admonishing Leon Panetta for his part in the killing of bin Laden.  Do you support they do just that?

Re: USCCB

“No doubt then we can rely upon the National Council of Catholic Bishops to issue a formal letter admonishing Leon Panetta for his part in the killing of bin Laden.”

The USCCB is merely a bureaucracy. It has no teaching authority. If a Catholic has openly supported serious or mortal sin, and will not listen to his Pastor, then he should be admonished by his Bishop. 

God bless

Richard w Comerford

@ Richard W Comeford,  And of course you were not present to judge what might be an immediate “threat” while in the compound (real or imagined).

And fyi, the diocesan Bishop of Arlington, VA following 911 called bin Laden and his people “Satan” not men.  If I adhere to the Bishop’s reference we are not required to wish OBL a “happy respose of his soul” by saying the rosary.  I will obey the Bishop.  How about you?

Re: Immediate Threat

“And of course you were not present to judge what might be an immediate “threat” while in the compound (real or imagined)”

A solider can discharge his weapon 1) in the immediate defense, 2) of innocent, 3) human life. All of the many WH versions of the action have Mr. Bin Laden unarmed at the time of his murder. Indeed so far no weapons have been reported found in the compound other than a plastic water pistol. The USG has charged soldiers and Marines in Afghan and Iraq with homicide for far less. It is a serious injustice to have soldiers and Marines languishing in prison for the same act that the compound raiders are now being glorified for.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: Obedience to your Bishop

“And fyi, the diocesan Bishop of Arlington, VA following 911 called bin Laden and his people “Satan” not men.  If I adhere to the Bishop’s reference we are not required to wish OBL a “happy respose of his soul” by saying the rosary.  I will obey the Bishop.  How about you?”

I dot reside in the Diocese of Arlington Virginia. 

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: The Tenth Crusade and Does God Love Murderers

“Am I reading this right? Does this say that Mother Teresa and Osama Bin Laden are equitable recipients of God’s love?”

It is not a matter of how much God loves us but how much we love God.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Richard W Comerford writes:  “I don’t reside in the Diocese of Arlington Virginia.”  Now that is interesting.  You do not have to obey one of the church fathers if he issues any policy because you are not in his diocese.  Sounds like your brand of Catholicism sometimes takes a walk on the Protestant side when it suits your convenience.  Better not use the “I don’t reside in that diocese argument” on other NCR blogs or some of those people will bite your head off.

Re: Church Fathers

“You do not have to obey one of the church fathers”

A Bishop is a successor to the Apostles. He is not a “Church Father”. AA Bishop is supreme only in his own Diocese (and then he is still subject to the Pope). There are, according to one source, over 31,000 Catholic Bishops, active and retired, in the world. However a Catholic on matters of faith and morals owes obedience to only two Bishops: his own (and only if he is in communion with the Pope) and the Bishop of Rome. It would be quite impossible to listen to every reported utterance of every Bishop and simultaneously obey 31,000 of them.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@ Joseph D’H - You said “I strongly suggest you read the following from another Catholic blog, The Tenth Crusade:The National Catholic Register ran a few sympathy for the devil articles yesterday that leave me a little perplexed about where EWTN is going with their newly-acquired publication. I was actually shocked to read this doozy, called “The Shocking Truth God Loves Osama Bin Laden Too”.

It would be shocking to read that God loves Osama bin Laden too if you don’t have a clear understanding of Who God is. We humans are made in the image and likeness of God and we are His children. Think of it this way, you have a son who has done everything wrong but do you stop loving him (I would hope not for he is your son) or do you hope that he will express sorrow for what he has done? In its most simplistic terms, that is Who God is. God hates the sin but loves the sinner. That is precisely why Jesus came so great is the Father’s love for all of us. He gave His only Son to die for us on the cross so that ALL OF HUMANITY could be redeemed - not just those who are worthy of His love but all of us and especially those of us who need it the most. Remember the “good thief” who hung on the cross waiting for death? He repented and Jesus told him that he would be with him in paradise. This is what Christianity is all about. It is a mystery for sure. Finally, as Catholics we say before receiving the Eucharist, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I will be healed”. These are words taken directly from Scripture.

Dear Mr. D’Hippolito

“Catholics have misused Jesus’s words (“the gates of Hell shall not prevail”) to justify a sense of arrogant superiority over other Christians and to disregard centuries of episcopal and papal corruption and malfeasance.”

That is not an example of arrogance. The Arrogance you identify is taking authority for one’s own self which is what the protestants did in the revolt.

You either believe Jesus’ promises or you do not. It is clear you do not and I appreciate your honesty.

The problem you are having with the different covenants is the New Covenant is sui generis because it was God Himself, as Jesus, The God-Man, who swore the oath of the new covenant and sealed it with His blood and so it can not fail.

And at The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass we redeemed Christians have the great blessing to participate in the New Covenant meal which the arrogant protestant revolutionaries can no longer do.

I do not know if you were once a Catholic or if you were never a Catholic but you ought be a Catholic for that is the only Church which was established by the God-Man,Jesus. All other communities were started by men in opposition to the Church established by Jesus the Christ.

Malachias For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

Other than the Orthodox Church, which, although in schism from Rome, has preserved Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders and The Eucharist and The Mass (Divine Liturgy) there is only The Catholic Church which offers the Sacrifice which is a clean oblation.

Such a Sacred and Blessed action occurs in not one, not one, protestant community (prots do not have churches)

And it was the arrogant protestant revolutionaries who changed the words of Malachias so it could conceal from their followers the truth about the way to salvation – it is in The Ark of Salvation The Catholic Church.

“In the face of a man’s death, a Christian never rejoices, ...”

LOL THat is a justifiable statement from a country, The Holy See. It is not a Doctrinal Teaching.

Here is Saint Bernard, a Doctor do the Catholic Church:

To Die or to Kill for Christ Is Not Criminal, but Glorious
About the lawfulness of war against the pagans, Saint Bernard, the Mellifluous Doctor, has these glowing words:
But in truth the knights of Christ fight the battles of their Lord with all tranquillity of conscience, fearing neither sin by the death of their enemies nor the danger of their own death, because death inflicted or suffered for Christ’s sake bears no trace of crime and often brings the merit of glory. In the former case, there is a gain for Christ; in the latter, Christ is gained, Who doubtless both willingly accepts the death of an enemy for punishment and more willingly offers Himself to the soldier for consolation.
The knight of Christ, I say, kills with tranquil conscience and dies even more tranquilly. In dying he benefits himself, in killing he benefits Christ. For he bears not a sword without cause; he is the minister of God for the punishment of evil and the exaltation of good. When he kills a malefactor, it is not homicide but, so to say, “malecide”; and he is clearly considered the avenger of Christ in the case of those who do evil, and the defender of Christians. Moreover, when he himself is killed, it is understood that he has not perished, but that he has arrived in eternal glory. The death, therefore, that he inflicts is again for Christ; the death that he receives is his own gain.
The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because Christ is glorified; in the death of a Christian, the liberality of the king is revealed, because the soldier is taken away to be rewarded. Furthermore, the just man will rejoice over the one when he has seen the punishment.
Concerning the other, a man will say: “If indeed there be fruit to the just: there is indeed a God that judgeth them on the earth” (Ps. 57:12). Not that the pagans should be slain if by any other means they can be impeded from persecuting and oppressing the faithful. But presently it is better that they be killed so that, in this way, the just men do not bend to the iniquity of their hands, for on the contrary, certainly the sinners’ rod will be upon the lot of the just.
?Saint Bernard, the Mellifluous Doctor?De laude novae militiae, in Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol. 182, col. 924.

According to you, St Beranrd, a Doctor of The Catholic Churc ain’t Catholic.

Mary, you are welcome to your pacifism but you have to stop letting it lead you by the nose into utter irrationality contrary to 2000 + years of Catholic Orthopraxis.

On second thought, never change. Having women like you repeatedly tel me I aint catholic assures me that I am :)

Dear MaryM

Proverbs 11:10

When it goeth well with the just the city shall rejoice: and when the wicked perish there shall be praise.

“Dom Orchard’s, “A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture,” renders “praise” as “jubilation.”

Put that in your Pacifist Peace-Pipe and smoke it :)

Re: Murder

Soldiers and Marines who kill unarmed Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan are charged with homicide. SEALS who kill unarmed Muslims in Pakistan are charged with heroism. Apparently geography affects morality.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

@Vermont Crank - Dear MaryM

“Proverbs 11:10

When it goeth well with the just the city shall rejoice: and when the wicked perish there shall be praise.

“Dom Orchard’s, “A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture,” renders “praise” as “jubilation.” Put that in your Pacifist Peace-Pipe and smoke it :)” Here’s my response to you with another quote from Proverbs - “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles; lest the LORD see it, and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him. (Prov. 24:17-18)” So???? There seems to definitely be a conflict in the statement you provide and the one I just provided. I think the statement I provided is more instructive and yours was more descriptive. In any event I follow what the CCC has to say on the matter and not Dom Orchard’s commentary. BTW, thanks for calling me a pacifist (which I am not) because it puts me in very good company - Blessed John Paul II and Dorothy Day have both been called pacifists.

@ Vermont Crank - “Mary, you are welcome to your pacifism but you have to stop letting it lead you by the nose into utter irrationality contrary to 2000 + years of Catholic Orthopraxis. On second thought, never change. Having women like you repeatedly tel me I aint catholic assures me that I am :)” - Hey, VC whatever I can do to build up what you view of Catholic Orthopraxis(how much is that word worth in Scrabble anyway?),I am most happy to contribute. My posts have attempted to reflect that you are not behaving as a Catholic in your thought process and I am truly sorry that you cannot see that!

@Mary M who writes:  “Remember the “good thief” who hung on the cross waiting for death? He repented and Jesus told him that he would be with him in paradise. This is what Christianity is all about. It is a mystery for sure. Finally, as Catholics we say before receiving the Eucharist, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I will be healed”. These are words taken directly from Scripture.”

Mary, bin Laden was not the “good terrorist” and universal application of your comment only applies to those having accepted Christ Jesus.  bin Laden’s faith was in *Allah* as he has professed tirelessly.  There is no redemption or purgatory for someone who dies without Christ.  And—“but only say the word” applied to the Roman Centurion—who, by the way, proved his faith in this Jewish Rabbi, Jesus, the Christ by placing his trust in Him.

“Ye shall know them by their fruit.”  Yeah, Mary, for that also is in the Gospel.  And we “know” what fruit bin Laden produced.

@New Observer - @Mary M who writes:  Remember the “good thief” who hung on the cross waiting for death? These are words taken directly from Scripture.

“Mary, bin Laden was not the “good terrorist” and universal application of your comment only applies to those having accepted Christ Jesus.  bin Laden’s faith was in *Allah* as he has professed tirelessly.  There is no redemption or purgatory for someone who dies without Christ.” Your theology is flawed.
One need not be a follower of Christ to be saved.  All are, however, saved in Christ whether they believe in Him or not. The “key word” is repentence. Was bin Laden given the grace to repent? We simply do not know that.

@Mary M who writes:  “One need not be a follower of Christ to be saved.  All are, however, saved in Christ whether they believe in Him or not.”

Mary, what Catholic school did you attend?  Or did you learn that from some new age nun in RCIA?  You are following false teaching.  Jesus said:  “No man comes to the Father but by Me.”  There is no other.  Allah is a false God and violates the First Commandment.

Mary writes:  “All are, however, saved in Christ whether they believe in Him or not. The “key word” is repentence.

Repentence for someone who does not beleive?  So why would someone need to repent if they did not believe in Christ?  Your comments are biblically illogical.

@New Observer- @Mary M who writes:  “One need not be a follower of Christ to be saved.  All are, however, saved in Christ whether they believe in Him or not. “Mary, what Catholic school did you attend?  Or did you learn that from some new age nun in RCIA?  You are following false teaching.  Jesus said:  “No man comes to the Father but by Me.”  There is no other.  Allah is a false God and violates the First Commandment.”

New Observer - try and learn something - The CCC which says (839)Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways. 841 “The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life 846 How are we to understand this affirmation,(Outside the Church there is no salvation) often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.

Dear May M Excellent. The Catholic Church and its entire 2000+ years of Tradition is, according to you,  completely obliterated by the new Catechism and so what came before is no longer applicable.

And that is not a Catholic idea at all.

Please try to keep-up. Our Holy Father Pope Benedict xvi, routinely, speaks about the reality of continuity not disruption. Disruption is what you appear to embrace. If Tradition and Orthopraxis appear to be out-of-step with the Catechism then you dismiss it as not Catholic.

Yours is a vey pinched and deracinated form of Catholicism. You appear to think the Church was established in 1962-1965.

You tell me I do not think like a Catholic because I do not agree with what your crazy idea of Catholics is and so I am happy to think that on that basis I am not Catholic :)

I’ll stick with the entire Church, not just that of the past one-half century.

Mary M writes:  “Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens ...”

Mary, where is goodness and truth in the Koran that infidels (Jews and Christians) must submit to Allah **or be killed?**  Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego would like for you to re-examine the CCC. 

You further state:  “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways ...”  bin Laden and his people know what the Gospel is.  They have rejected it.

@New Observer - Well, I’m so glad that we made it clear that you know better than what is in the Catechism. How could you or anyone know that each and every Muslim knows the Gospel and has rejected it? That makes absolutely no sense. If a “good’ Muslim lives a moral life and has never had an opportunity to learn about Christ and follow Him, it is possible for him to be saved. But, he is saved through Christ. All are saved through Christ.

Mary evidently thinks that we who do not agree with her are not thinking like Catholics.

Well, that is certainly humble :)

Mary tells me I am not thinking like a Catholic on the same thread she claims we don;t know if Bin Laden repented.

This is the thing about new-age Catholics who are ignorant of Ecclesiastical History, they denounce those who are actually living breathing members of The Body of Christ while extending sympathy and giving the benefit of the doubt to a committed Muslim.

And that is how they show love.

It is all perfectly insane; it is all perfectly disconnected with the entire history of the Church prior to 1962-1965 but Mary can read a few passages in the latest Catechism and pontificate about that which she clearly has not the first clue.

Mary, good bye.  You have not one clue about Islam and its doctrines and you massacre Common Sense and the well-documented history of Bin Laden and his commitment to the false religion by implying he might have repented in the last two seconds of his life.

You sound like a Mormon baptising long-dead Catholics.

@Vermont Crank - “Dear May M Excellent. The Catholic Church and its entire 2000+ years of Tradition is, according to you,  completely obliterated by the new Catechism and so what came before is no longer applicable.” Did I say that anywhere???? The Catholic Church is a living Tradition of 2,000 + years and which I embrace in its entirety. You, however, and some others like you don’t want to do that since you prefer your own “theology”. Since you mention Pope Benedict, you should know that the then Cardinal Ratzinger was an integral participant in the promulgation of the Catechism. Read this please. The APOSTOLIC LETTER LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE IN WHICH THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS APPROVED AND PROMULGATED JOHN PAUL, BISHOPSERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

“Taken from the This edition was prepared by an Interdicasterial Commission which I appointed for this purpose in 1993. Presided over by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, this Commission worked diligently to fulfill the mandate it received. In this regard one can certainly understand that such a remarkable number of suggested improvements shows the extraordinary interest that the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life. At the same time it draws attention to the eager desire of all to make their contribution so that the Christian faith, whose essential and necessary elements are summarized in the Catechism, can be presented to the people of our day in the most suitable way possible. Furthermore, this collaboration of the various members of the Church will once again achieve what I wrote in the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum: “The harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the ‘symphony’ of the faith” (no. 2).”  The CCC is the ultimate resourse for teaching the faith since as it clearly stated above “confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.”

Mary, the topic is bin Laden.  “Ye shall know them by their fruit.”  His fruit produced Satanic evil.

Vermont Crank:  That’s true.  The LDS do baptize long dead Catholics.

Mary’s writes:  “The CCC is the ultimate resourse for teaching the faith.”  If that is so, there is no need for anyone to read the Bible.

@Vermont Crank & New Observer - I have quoted you what the Church teaches and believes. You have chosen to reject it. I am glad that that you have made it clear that the two of you are the authorities on the Catholic Church and the CCC carries no weight. Furtermore, I am not a New Age Catholic. I am an orthodox Catholic who follows the teachings of the Church which the two of you do not preferring to make up your own version of Catholicism. VC you sound as if you reject anything that came after Vatican II. That is not following the living Tradition of the Church. “You sound like a Mormon baptising long-dead Catholics.” I guess you don’t know much about the Mormon relgion at all VC because my beliefs don’t come any where near what Mormons believe. Maybe you should read up on Mormonism before you commit to making such a statement about someone.

Re: Murder and the Souls of Our Soldiers

Forgotten in the frantic applause of the Jack Bauer wannabes for the murder of UBL are the souls of our soldiers who committed the murders and, objectively speaking, have imperiled their immortal souls by breaking the 5th Commandment. When we send our soldiers to foreign shores to commit murder we endanger their salvation. Perhaps we should pause amidst the high fives and congratulations to pray for the immortal souls of the young men of SEAL Team 6?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Posted by New Observer on Friday, May 6, 2011 2:01 PM (EDT):Vermont Crank:  That’s true.  The LDS do baptize long dead Catholics.

Mary’s writes:  “The CCC is the ultimate resourse for teaching the faith.”  If that is so, there is no need for anyone to read the Bible.”

I guess you do not know the difference between a RESOURCE and the living Word of God (the Bible).  That’s too bad.

Vermont Crank —I knew we should have expected this sooner or later.  We can expect to see the whole Kumbaya crowd now posting using the CCC or some remote JP2 papal comment as a possible defender of—and making excuses that bin Laden didn’t know Jesus so he is not gulity.  Yeah, he had time to repent at the final breath.  The logical outcome of this will be a wave of comments that if one does not accept the CCC fully and everything contained therein you are not a good Catholic.  The topic remains bin Laden (and his fruit) not the CCC.

@New Observer & VC - If you are Catholic and do not believe what it is the Catechsim then you are not being obedient to the faith. If you are not Catholic then you disagree with Catholic theology. This has nothing to do with being a “good Catholic” whatever that means. What it does mean is that your pride is greater than your humility since you refuse to follow what the Church teaches and instead prefer to follow your own version of Catholic theology. I am not God and neither are either of you. We cannot claim to know everything about the way God thinks.  Jesus has given us guidelines on how to live a moral life but our ultimate destination is entirely in God’s hands. When we face God we will know but to speculate on anyone’s final destination is just that, speculation and not based on any fact and specualtion is useless.

Richard, the only high fives going around are Obama and other White House people seeking to capitalize on the next presidential campaign.  The Pentagon, CIA and other US Military officials are in the meantime probably debriefing the Seals individually in interviews to know the truth of what actually happened before issuing a comprehensive final report.  We have waited almost ten years.  The White House could have announced he was dead and details would follow later on.  Even mentioning the Seals, the compound, the raid, the training and anything else was premature until all the facts have been assembled.  There was no need to release any information for the enemy to have.

Mary. I was going to disengage with you - and I shall again shortly - but I do want to ask you a question.

Is it a sin to give scandal?

I’ll wait while you look-up “scandal” in The Catechism.

Dear new observer. I think some poorly-informed but well-intentioned women, and by women I mean mary and richard, think the Catechism is the first and last word in Doctrine and here we have Mary on a Jimmy Akin thread obviously unaware of what he has written vis a vis the Church and Muslims.

Accrd to mary’s standards, Jimmy ain’t Catholic.

Sure, it’s silly, but that is the shallowness of the IAMCLTY (I am more Christ Like than You) mob of pontificators.

No matter what one can produce from the past - from Beatified Popes to Drs of the Church to the Bible to Tradition to Orthopraxis, the IAMCTY Gang is ready to pontificate and declare you excommunicated. Even after you have said that heir position is orthodox, they cast you out and spend their time extending compassion to a deadly terrorist.

Imagine what would happen if they tried to wrap their heads around the captious Molinism vs Thomism debate.

They’d die because they can[t find it in the Catechism and they have no idea how the issue was resolved.

Mr. Comerford. Judge thyself first. I simply cannot believe this sanctimonous bull crap! I can just see you standing and nodding “Tsk ... How proper and appropriate, sir,” beside Ireland’s Eamon DeValera when he penned his condolences to what was left of Hitler’s “German Reich” right about this time 65 years ago upon hearing of Der Fuhrer’s death.
  This line’s a beaut! “When we send our soldiers to foreign shores to commit murder we endanger their salvation.” Do we now? Would you also kindly think of praying for the soul of any leader who had the opportunity to seize or kill a diabolical terrorist who upon open demonstration that he had a nuke, planned on using it at a time of his choosing ... BUT, who also decided to pass on grabbing/killing this terrorist? After all, if the bomb did go off, even a small nuke, it would undoubtedly result in significantly greater deaths than what we suffered on 9/11.
  Whose soul would really be in greater danger, then Mr. Comerford, the spineless leader who failed his country, failed humanity and ultimately failed his Lord by his refusal to act; or the brave men and women who were ready and willing to give their all so that others may freely live?
  Not far from where I live is the resting place of a brave soldier from the famed Mass. 54th “Glory” Regiment which fought successfully at Secessionville and bravely stormed the parapets of Ft. Wagner outside of Charleston, SC. He was a freeman living up north and he could’ve avoided service. BUT could he have avoided the burden on his soul—for the rest of his life—knowing there were other Black Freemen signing up to fight for the Union in order to liberate his fellow Black men, women and children living in slavery—and chose to do nothing?
  Mr. Comerford, you wouldn’t say he signed up to be a murderer for his country or his fellow Blacks whose lives he wanted to liberate from more years in bondage? You may not want to believe you are, but just by following the illogic contained in your post above, you’re coming dangerously close.

@Vermonot Crank - I don’t need to look up scandal because I know what it means and it is a sin to give scandal and your point would be?

Dear Steven. Nice points. Well done.

I have no idea of the sex of the the person using the s/n to which you are responding.  I assume the person is a woman what with all of the hysterical irrationality.

It may simply be the case Obama made the right decision during her wrong time of the month.

C’est la Vie.

In any event, the girl/woman ought to be aware that the Church to which she claims affiliation (and there is no proof she is a Catholic) has named as a Doctor of the Church a great Saint, Saint Benedict, who taught we ought rejoice at the death of an evil man and that the taking of his life is not murder but Malecide; and she ought be aware that Proverbs says we ought rejoice at the death of an evil man; and the Bible, in the book of Judith, records the truth abut how Our Lord assisted Judith in cutting-off the head of Holofornes - IN HIS OWN TENT WHILE HE WAS PASSED-OUT and it records the joy and celebration following the act; and she ought be aware of Pope Blessed Urban II calling a Crusade; and she ought be aware…well, you get the point.

Everything I said in that paragraph is repudiated by these modern Catholic Girls. See, I still consider them Catholics even though they disagree with me and have a pinched, crabbed, and ignorant idea of what Catholicism teaches.

Their “faith” is egotistical. If you disagree with their personal opinions of what The Catholic Church Teaches, then you aint Catholic - and, by the way, neither is a Doctor of the Church and a Beatus Pope

C;est la vie

Dear Mary M.  My point is you do not know what the hell you are talking about and I knew you’d leap into error vis a vis that question and the errors in the CCC,

Dear Mary M. I’ll go farther. The Catholic Catechism gives scandal.  Put that in your now-it-all Pipe ands smoke it

know-it-all pipe

Vermont Crank… after almost 28 yrs of marriage I’ve learned it never pays to be so bold and sometimes crazily courageous to presume a fix on the mindsets of some folks of the opposite gender perusasion, especially when the topics being discussed involve politics and religion. I think it has something to do with Vatican II when St. Peter’s Barque started listing to port. “Malecide,” now that’s a new one! LOL. Funny how one never hears that word coming out of the Service Academies of Feminism, Smith and Mount Holyoke Colleges, for starters.

Dear Steven. Well, that is one reason women never held positions of authority within the Church and one reason they never will hold authority in the Church. It is just since the beginning of the 60s that feminism was introduced into the Church and that nasty infection, while quite problematical, is not lethal.

As the economy slowly dies there will be a concomitant rise of masculinity as men are sick-to-death of the sob-sisters and homos (but I repeat myself) who have held sway for so long.

The Traditional Orders are growing by leaps and bounds while the only Dioceses generating vocations are those whose Bishops are solidly Orthodox.

Inside the Catholic Church there is war twixt the Traditional Mackerel Snappers and the Tradition Sappers and the Tradition Sappers have dug so deep that have all but disappeared.

Good riddance to them, I say. Let the dirt collapse upon them and bury them

@Steven “after almost 28 yrs of marriage I’ve learned it never pays to be so bold and sometimes crazily courageous to presume a fix on the mindsets of some folks of the opposite gender perusasion, especially when the topics being discussed involve politics and religion.” My condolenses to your wife!

@VC -  “Well, that is one reason women never held positions of authority within the Church and one reason they never will hold authority in the Church. It is just since the beginning of the 60s that feminism was introduced into the Church and that nasty infection, while quite problematical, is not lethal.” I don’t know if you have a wife but my condolenses to her as well.

I have never been hysterical in my posts but there are a number of you who have not behaved as Christians at all. Frankly I don’t need to spend my valuable time “conversing” with nasty people who have absolutely no respect for anyone that challenges them. Your views on women are also despicable but not surprising. So no need to disengage me VC - consider it done and I’m done with this thread.

Dear Steven. I have no idea how it is I disparaged you and I ‘spose my ideas about women seem atavistic to some who are in communities where women who hold spiritual authority.

I am guessing you are a member of such a community, right?

Well, no hard feelings on my part…

Re: The 54th Mass and SEAL Team 6 at the Bin Laden Compound

The 54th Mass, mentioned above, was organized to fight uniformed enemy soldiers on the field of battle. Its members did not engage in the murder of unarmed civilians in their homes. Sadly members of SEAL Team 6 recently shot and killed unarmed Muslims in their home. An act for which both our President and the Jack Bauer wannabes are ecstatic about. Meanwhile the real heroes, the Army and Marine grunts in Afghan and Iraq, find themselves charged with homicide if they kill unarmed Muslims. The act of murder endangers the immortal soul of the murderer. We should not expose our soldiery to this peril.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: The Souls of Our Soldiers II

“Richard, the only high fives going around are Obama and other White House people seeking to capitalize on the next presidential campaign.”

Forgotten again are the immortal souls of our soldiers. Our President sent members of SEAL Team 6 to murder in cold blood a sick, old man and anyone else that got in their way. However a Presidential tasking does not free our Soldiery from the 5th Commandment. We should pray for the immortal souls of the young SEALS who committed murder at the bidding of their President.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Mary, I’ll pass along your condolences. And rest assured I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve put her into full high speed eye-ball spinning. lol And don’t worry VC, you sure as heck didn’t leave me feeling “disparaged.” Good natured banter never does!
  Richard, in case you missed it, Osama bin Laden was the founder, organizer, fundraiser, chief strategist, and commander-in-chief of al Qaeda. It’s undeniable that he didn’t operate a national military unit in the conventional way. Nor did this make him and his internationalist Muslim jihadi force any less a lethal combatant against the US, UK, Spain, Austrailia, Saudi Arabia, Russia, the Phillippines, Jordan, Iraq, and of course, Afghansitan to name a few nations where his soldiers operated destroyed innocent lives in through terror.
  His compound was loaded with weapons and he was working on plans to blow up passenger trains. “Old man”? He’s not much older than I am and if memory serves me rightly, he’s in his early 60s. Have you forgotten the key role played by the blind sheikh or iman from New Jersey, who had a major role in the first WTC bombing plot?
  I take no “joy” in the man’s shooting; have no desire to have his bloody pictures put on the web or make the same “end zone” dance President Obama’s predecessor often encouraged with his empty tough talk and swagger. But we can all take in the relief of knowing this thoroughly evil man who adulterated the teachings of his own faith to suit his ends.
  You’ve got to come down from your rickety stack of soapboxes. Lighten up on the judgmental stuff.

Re: On Murder

“His compound was loaded with weapons and he was working on plans to blow up passenger trains”

So far the government has not produced a single weapon from the compound nor a picture of a weapon other than that of a plastic water pistol lying beneath the head of one of the murdered men. Nor has it shared anything from the vast intelligence trove it claimed it captured. Murder is forbidden by the 5th Commandment. For a U.S. President to order the murder of anyone at the hands of his soldiery is serious business. No good will come of it for our country. In the meantime what of the souls of the young SEALS who shot down defenseless Muslims in cold blood? What of the fate of the young U.S. Paratrooper held captive by the Taliban? How do we explain to the families of young soldiers and Marines accused of homicide for the alleged killings of unarmed Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan that their sons are not heroes like the SEALS in killed in Pakistan? When does the chest beating stop?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Richard W Comerford writes:  “So far the government has not produced a single weapon from the compound nor a picture of a weapon other than that of a plastic water pistol lying beneath the head of one of the murdered men. Nor has it shared anything from the vast intelligence trove it claimed it captured. Murder is forbidden by the 5th Commandment. For a U.S. President to order the murder of anyone at the hands of his soldiery is serious business. No good will come of it for our country.”

Richard, Standard US Military protocol is to interview all participants separately for their account of an event and by different interviewers.  Once that information is obtained, the interviewers compare and contrast the accounts given to glean a more true picture of the event prior to issuing a formal incident report.  If Obama and “his people” were not so juvenile about this whole event including Obama himself agreeing to a 60 Minutes Scott Pelley interview within 24 hours, the White House would not have to be back peddling nine times this week to correct previously released information.  That Seals were involved or where this took place, that bin Laden was even shot or where he was shot or even that bin Laden was dumped somewhere at sea should be classified information.  Why tell the enemy anything?  There was no need for the White House to release this information.  You are only basing your opinion upon what you hear from Katie, Diane,—or worse, NPR or MSLSD.  Our Military is not doing any talking—only Obama and “his people” are.  Any formal report will normally take at least 30 days.  My view is that we do not have all the facts including what weapons were on site on any person.  Don’t forget that Islamic women are also known to hide weapons inside their coverings.  At least Presidents Bush and Clinton took the high road and declined joining Obama at Ground Zero.  For someone who didn’t want to “spike the football,” going to Ground Zero in NY is exactly what Obama did.  You will see those photos in next year’s presidential commercials.  You can mark it down.

Vermont Crank, you are correct.  Beginning in the mid 60’s, apostate feminists and Women Religious elevated to Pastoral Associates and other leadership positions in Catholic dioceses and parishes has been responsible for the feminization of the Catholic priesthood.  No wonder vocations have dried up.  “What you reap so therefore will you sow.”

“Remember that the Jesus who made the statement Catholics love to quote to justify their complacency and arrogance is the exact same Jesus who gave Satan the “time” and “power” to destroy the Church within 100 years after Pope Leo XIII’s vision in the 1880s.”

Dear Mr D’Hippolito Lord. Where to begin? You think that Jesus created a Church and then let Satan gain control of it and you think that The Church He created and sent the Holy Ghost upon it to teach it all truth is now teaching error and you think that the Church, about which He said, he who hears you hears me, is an apostate Church.

IOW, you think that Jesus is Satan for it is only Satan who could have made such infamous lie-promises.

Sir, you will not hear Jesus so I know you will not here me. C’est la vie.

I guess Jesus allowed His Bride to be dragged-out of the Sanctuary by Satan and now Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and God the Father are just twiddling their thumbs while Satan repeatedly rapes her.

That, in stark terms, is your ideology - it aint theology.

Dear Mr. D’Hippolito. Jesus chose Judas as an Apostle. He did that, among other reasons, as an example for His followers.  At minimum, at least 1/12 of Catholic Bishops are likely to be turncoats and yet we are STILL commanded to obey them of rthey sit on the judgment seat of Moses.

We are told not to imitate them but to obey them.

It sounds to me like you are an autocephalic individual. Maybe you could point-out to us in the New Tetstament where is says Jesus’ church will be taken over by Satan, or become apostate, or fail.

I can show you a bunch of statements by Jesus teaching the opposite.

THe Old Testament has several verses teaching the old covenant will fail. There is not one scripture teaching the new covenant will fail.

The Old Covenant was sealed with animal sacrifices and the new with the blood of Jesus so, it is likely to be a bit more successful and permanent, no?

Popes rarely depose Bishops as their authority derives from a Divine source. Sure, he has authority over them as the Vicar of Christ (matt 16; 18,19) but the laity is expected to know enough that such a Bishop believes bull and to ignore him on that.

And, in fact, they do. They reject his belief just as you do.

During the Arian Crisis nearly the whole world of Bishops embraced the heresy of Arius. It was the laity, and a few stout Bishops who remained faithful. St Athanasius pray for us.

It sounds to me like your faith failed and you are looking to place the blame for that failure on others - which is a very liberal thing to do.

You think that Jesus failed to keep His promise about His Church never failing so just admit it.

Jesus lied and billions died. . Just say it. It is what you believe

Re: On Murder in War

“Just like the European partisans who murdered those Wehrmacht troops and
Gestapo officers who were just following orders, right? Comerford, you are a morally warped individual. You call what is good,
“evil” and what is evil, “good.”

The act of murder is always wrong, a serious violation of the 5th Commandment, whether performed by partisans or SEALS even at the order of the President of the United States. Why mock God by publicly and proudly breaking his Commandments?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: “Standard US Military protocol”

“Standard US Military protocol is to interview all participants separately for their account of an event and by different interviewers.”
No. It is not.
“Once that information is obtained, the interviewers compare and contrast the accounts given to glean a more true picture of the event prior to issuing a formal incident report.”
No. They do not.
“You are only basing your opinion upon what you hear from Katie, Diane,—or worse, NPR or MSLSD.”
My opinion is based on the Ten Commandments. Take it up with Moses.
“Any formal report will normally take at least 30 days.”
How do you know?
You would probably make a better Commander In Chief than President Obama (at least on this issue) but our military (sadly) does not operate that way.
God bless
Richard W Comerford

If I have trouble sleeping, I have a couple of Bin Ladens - two shots and a splash - and I sleep like the dead

(Sigh), Richard ... for all your protestations against those “murderin’”  Seals’ (far from it!)actions in Abbottobad, just stand before a mirror and ask yourself, “How much attention to due process did Osama bin Laden show the civilians he killed on 9/11 and other attacks carried out on his orders, following the Fatwa of the mid-nineties when he declared war against the West in general and the U.S., in particular?”
  But, try doing it with a straight face and see how far you get before even you find yourself smirking.

Re: Two Wrongs Do Not Make A Right

“How much attention to due process did Osama bin Laden show the civilians he killed on 9/11 and other attacks carried out on his orders, following the Fatwa of the mid-nineties when he declared war against the West in general and the U.S., in particular?”

Christ commanded His followers to love their enemies and to return good for evil. So who do we follow in this matter: Jesus Christ or Jack Bauer?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: On Human Dignity

“If I have trouble sleeping, I have a couple of Bin Ladens - two shots and a splash - and I sleep like the dead”

Mr. Bin Laden was made in the image and likeness of God. He possesses an immortal soul. Christ died for him on the Cross. To mock Mr. Bin Laden’s death is to mock Christ’s Passion.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: On Moral Equivalency

“moral equivalence (Cumerford is the prime example of that)”

We are indeed (on one level) morally equivalent. We are all made in the image and likeness of God, possess immortal souls, are subject to the Ten Commandments and were bought for a great price by Christ through His passion and death.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Re: “That is what you have been arguing”

No. And BTW true moral equivalency would be Mr. Bin Laden sending his minions to murder Americans and presidents Bush and Obama sending their minions to murder Muslims.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Richard W Comerford writes:  “And BTW true moral equivalency would be Mr. Bin Laden sending his minions to murder Americans and presidents Bush and Obama sending their minions to murder Muslims.”

Richard, if you think so poorly about the United States, you probably failed to receive a proper education given the liberal state of the “blame America first” school system.  The war has been brought upon us, not the other way around.  America has a history of defeating our enemies and then extending the nature of our compassion.  The United States defeated a vicious Germany and Japan in WWII and then helped rebuild both countries with American tax dollars and continued with enormous treasure of foreign aid and human resources.  Both countries became our friends.  We have educated the world at American universities in science, medicine, agriculture, engineering, telecommunication and literacy to help build a better world so foreign people could return home and lift up their own nations to an improved standard of living.  American students have even been left out of our own schools as a result of our compassion and generosity to the less fortunate in this world.  No nation on earth has been or is more generous and compassionate with our wealth and resources.  It is the nature of the American spirit.  We are a godly, Christian people.  When did you ever see bin Laden and his band of terrorists building schools, hospitals, water and irrigation systems for the Muslims,—but the United States Military is doing so.  This is all on our tax dollars. 

Do you know that the “terrible” United States is responsible for 92% of the world’s Christian and Catholic missionaries—including the funding to help to educate, feed, teach and bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who do not know Him.  Rome’s contribution is a pittance.  If you really think we are such a wretched people, maybe you would prefer citizenship elsewhere.  And you can quit with the snide “God Bless” at the end of each of your posts since we all know they are condescending and insincere.

“The United States defeated a vicious Germany and Japan in WWII and then helped rebuild both countries”
As Churchill said “it was the Red Army that tore the guts out of the Wehrmacht”; and we then handed over half of Europe to Stalin and all of China to Mao.
“We have educated the world at American universities”
We have spread pornography, sexual disease, abortion and contraception
“We are a godly, Christian people.”
We murder 4,000 of our own children a day - every day.
“When did you ever see bin Laden and his band of terrorists building schools”
After 10-years of fighting NATO the “terrorists” still control 50% of Afghan which is what they controlled on 9/11/01. Someone is supporting them.
“but the United States Military is doing so.”
And is responsible for about half the civilian deaths in Afghan.
“Do you know that the “terrible” United States is responsible for 92% of the world’s Christian and Catholic missionaries”
Too bad they cannot evangelize the USA.
“If you really think we are such a wretched people, maybe you would prefer citizenship elsewhere.”
We live in a fallen world. That includes the USA. And our President recently sent his minions to murder an old man living on the other side of the planet in an act of revenge; and your godly, Christian people, in the main, stood up and cheered.
It is “one Nation under God”; not over God.
God bless
Richard W Comerford

As a Christian I always try to find something good in everyone-even someone as evil mean and rotten as Bin Laden. Heaven or Hell, I hope he’s with Saddam.
I think it’s Islamic law that they must be buried in something like within 24 hours.
Was Bin Laden crazy? He was nuts! He was so fanatical he might not have been able to be rational even if he wanted to.
Back when I was in high school, one of my classmates wished that Khomeini was dead.  Sister said never wish him (or any other leader for that matter) dead because the next one can be even worse.

Richard, there are no perfect nations or societies.  The perfection you criticize the United States in not having now will be ushered in only when He walks across the Kidron Valley and sets His foot upon the temple mount.

Re: On the Glorification of Evil

‘there are no perfect nations or societies.’

The Church teaches that we live in a fallen world. Yet it still insists that we strive to obey the Commandments. The problem here is not that a Prince had his henchmen to murder an old enemy out of revenge; but that his Christian subjects have loudly applauded the murder.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Richard,
Since you speak for the “church” how should this have been handled?

Re: Since you speak for the “church” how should this have been handled?”

Sadly the Pope stopped calling me for advice. So I cannot speak for the Church. However back in the Dark Ages I ran a RECONDO (Reconnaissance Commando) School for about 8-years. The students included SWAT Cops and SEALS. I taught, among other things, CQB (Close Quarters Battle) and building assault. Even back then there were numerous techniques to capture an unarmed but uncooperative target. And until Ruby Ridge no federal, State or lcoal Agency; civilian or military, would accept from the Bosses a shoot to kill on sight order on an unarmed target/suspect. (At Ruby Ridge the FBI HRT was given a shoot on sight order and a mother standing in the doorway of her home holding nothing but her infant was shot and killed without warning by an FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi [who btw was Catholic]. S/A Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter but got a walk essentially because he was “following orders”.) The military chain of command down to the most junior Petty Officer on task should have said that “we will risk our lives storming the compound and if possible will capture Bin Laden, and if necessary shoot him; but we will not murder him.” I know guys who ruined their careers because they would not do evil. Now Catholcis applaud murder and make sick jokes about it.

God help us

Richard W Comerford

Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of Christianity, persecuted the Church, arrested Christians, and was present at the stoning of St. Stephen.  Saul must have been feared and hated by many of those whom he had persecuted.  If someone had killed Saul, many people probably would have cheered his death.  Yet, if Saul (now know to us as St. Paul) had been killed before his conversion, think how much of Sacred Scripture which we hear throughout the liturgical year would never have been written because someone would have executed this man for whom God had great plans.  We could say that the killer would actually have been opposing God’s will by taking Saul’s life.
Osama bin Laden would probably never have become a Christian, but his violent death ensures that he will never experience any kindness or witness the good example of any Christian who might otherwise have had a good influence on him.
We should pray that even though he didn’t know the mercy and love of Jesus in this life, that he might experience it in the next.  And we should pray that Christians may win over their enemies by following the example of Christ’s love.

Fr. Mark, you have written an excellent paragraph of Christ’s redemptive mercy and love, —but one that applies to the repentant (assuming one does not run out of time in the course of life).  The gospel quotes Jesus saying “You fool, for tonight your life may be required of you.”  For such a foolish man, it is often too late.  Today is the day of salvation —not tomorrow—or next year.  Malachi 3 and Hebrews 13 both reference the Lord (Christ) as “I am the Lord and I change not”—and Jesus Christ being “the same yesterday, today and forever.”  Mercy, love, forgiveness and redemption are the hallmarks of Christianity.  However, for the unrepentant, prideful and arrogant, I am sure you do not need to be reminded of Yahweh’s justice when He closed the Red Sea upon Pharaoh’s army.  To this day, Egypt —once the most rich and powerful nation on earth has never regained even a scintilla of their former preeminence.  Where is the Lord’s mercy and love graced upon Egypt?  Yes, God is a God of love.  He is also a God of justice.  People who think the Bible really begins with New Testament love while discounting God’s perspective concerning His Old Testament justice dishonor the Lord’s true nature.  As a priest, you have an obligation to preach not only of His love but also of His justice to the unrepentant and prideful.

@New Observer “Mercy, love, forgiveness and redemption are the hallmarks of Christianity.  However, for the unrepentant, prideful and arrogant, I am sure you do not need to be reminded of Yahweh’s justice when He closed the Red Sea upon Pharaoh’s army.” New Observer you would be wise to take your own advice about being unrepentant, prideful and arrogant.

@ Joseph D’Hippolito - “Fr. Mark, you would be well advised to pay attention to what New Observer wrote. His stance is far, far closer to real Christianity (cutting across denominational lines) than yours.”  “Sadly, your stance is far more representative of Catholicism than most Catholics would admit.” The Catholic Church is REAL Christianity. Non denominational lines? Just which denomination did you have in mind since they do not agree with each other on many issues? Your comments precisely reflect what occurs when there is no leader and opinions become your religion. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church and together with his bishops give guidance to the one billion Catholics in the world. The truth is the truth and it is s irrelevant whether many Catholics don’t agree with the Pope. What it does mean is that they are being disobedient, prideful and arrogant. Pride and arrogance are capital sins.

Re: Old and New Testaments

One of the most remarkable things about this matter is that some American Christians justify preventative war, torture and murder by the Old Testament. However when Christ walked among us He gave us a New Testament wherein He commanded us to love our neighbor, to love our enemy, to return good for evil and to forgive 7 times 70. What we have here, in this glorification of blood, revenge and war, is Christianity without Christ. They used to call that Arianism.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Amy, —thank you for your admonishment, however you are misguided in your criticism.  Your argument is not with me but rather with the Lord Himself.  Exodus documents through Moses that it was Pharaoh who was unrepentant, arrogant and prideful before the Lord.  I am only stating the biblical and historical fact of God’s justice.  Nimrod and Nebechanezor are two other examples of how God deals out his justice.  So too, the disobedience of Lot’s wife.  One cannot get by merely claiming only to be “just” a New Testament Christian or Catholic.  If you believe that you are under deception.

Richard, No —“one of the most remarkable things” (your words) is that you would turn the argument and have bin Laden be the victim and the United States be the terrorists.  Your position is that the United States do nothing, absolutely nothing—and allow bin Laden and his people to walk away and continue to perpetuate evil all over the world in the holy name of Allah.  You would have stood with Chamberlain and his appeasement with the Nazi’s which only encouraged the Third Reich to continue the Final Solution of gasing 6 million Jewish people.  Apparently, you are OK with that.

@New Observer - As Christians we read the Bible in its entirety. It is an error to pull passages from the Old Testament to defend ones position. To do that is to take the message of salvation history out of context. When we read the Bible as a whole we can see the story of salvation history unfolding and how the writings in the Old Testament were fulfilled in the Gospels and New Testament writings. The New Testament is the final definitive Word of God and as Christians we use that as our moral compass.

Mary, Your view is that the “nature” of God changes from the OT to the NT.  That His nature changes is false teaching and is a “world view” of Scripture.  When you ignore God’s justice in favor of His love, you are a cafeteria-type Christian.

Re: Revenge and Violence

“you would turn the argument and have bin Laden be the victim and the United States be the terrorists”
Murdering Mr. Bin Laden has only created a martyr. It will cost us blood.
“the United States do nothing, absolutely nothing—and allow bin Laden and his people to walk away and continue to perpetuate evil all over the world in the holy name of Allah”
The Catholic Church teaches that nations have (under certain condition) a right and sometimes (again under certain conditions) even a duty to self defense and the defense of innocent third parties.
“You would have stood with Chamberlain and his appeasement with the Nazi’s which only encouraged the Third Reich”
The Catholic Church teaches that all other options must be exhausted before resorting to force.
“to continue the Final Solution of gasing 6 million Jewish people”
The NAZIS’ systematic extermination of the Jews began after the outbreak of war. War hides many evils.
“Apparently, you are OK with that”
As several Rabbis who survived the final solution have pointed out if we had remained at peace the NAZIS could not have carried out the final solution and Stalin would not have ended up gobbling up half of Europe and Hitler would have been overthrown by his generals.
Our Faith should be in Christ not violence.
God bless
Richard W Comerford

@New Observer - I agree, the nature of God does not change. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. However, He reveals, Himself, to us in stages. There are plenty of passages about justice in the New Testament. Jesus, was very clear, however, about loving our enemies and that the peacemakers would inherit the Kingom of God. This is what God wanted from us from the beginning of time but the Jewish people just were not getting in right. God is love and that has been His message to His children from the beginning of time. We just didn’t get it right so he chastized us.

Joseph D’Hippolito - You are right - not all Christians are Catholic and that is exactly where the problem exisits since there are around 35,000 different denominations with a multitude of theological differences and opinions. In the Catholic Church one will find the fulness of Truth. No other church can make that claim. You are right when you say that Jesus did not establish an institution. He established a Church, one Church and that Church is the Catholic Church.

Amy, your response to Joseph states (1)  “since there are around 35,000 different denominations ...”  I have heard that number bandied about.  What is your source data for 35,000?  I once heard the real # is 58,000 but that was never proven.  You further state (2) ” In the Catholic Church one will find the fullness of Truth.”  In your own words, what is the fullness of Truth?  Please support your comments with fact and (then) come back to the topic of bin Laden.

Joseph D’Hippolito - JPII did not make unilateral decisions which changed Catholic teaching on the death penalty. Society changes and we now have the means to safely keep murderers locked up behind bars so in most cases there is no legitimate reason for executions. How would you know who is being disciplined and who is not? I am sure the Pope has many sleepness nights worrying about many things including accountability. I prefer to be in the Church who was established by Christ because this is His Church with all of the scars inflicted by weak human beings.

Amy, so your preference is that bin Laden have been tried in the Hague, Guantanamo or lower Manhattan?  If in Manhattan, you do realize by selecting the Hague or Manhattan the publicity would have allowed him to speak and send Jihad messages all around the world through the media circus so more innocent people would die in the name of glorifying Allah.

Joseph - “Do you know think the Holy Spirit, Whom Catholics receive through the Sacrament of Confirmation, can provide the power for people to turn from sin? Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism, Joseph. The Holy Spirit is strengthened at Confirmation. We go to Confession when we sin mortally and Jesus forgives us through the ministry of the Church.

New Observer - “Amy, so your preference is that bin Laden have been tried in the Hague, Guantanamo or lower Manhattan?  If in Manhattan, you do realize by selecting the Hague or Manhattan the publicity would have allowed him to speak and send Jihad messages all around the world through the media circus so more innocent people would die in the name of glorifying Allah.” I don’t recall implying any of this - maybe you would like to identify for me where I did.

Amy, the topic is bin Laden.  What is your opinion of him and what should have been done?  Also, I am still waiting your source for 35,000 denominations and the “fullness of the Truth.”

Joseph - “Amy, that’s not what I was taught when I was going through the process but that’s a secondary issue.” What process is that, Joseph? “Do you or do you not think that the Holy Spirit has the power to help people turn from sin?” Through the means of grace the Holy Spirit helps people turn from sin. Baptism washes us of the original sin we were born with. The Church provides for the Sacrament of Confession for anyone who sins. One of the conditions of a valid confession is sorrow for ones sin and promising to reform ones life. Jesus Christ redeemed us and opened the gates of heaven and offers us eternal life. We, however, need to choose if he want Him or something else.

New Oberserver - “Amy, the topic is bin Laden.  What is your opinion of him and what should have been done?  Also, I am still waiting your source for 35,000 denominations and the “fullness of the Truth.”  My opinion of bin Laden is that he was a very disturbed human being. I have no opinion on what should have been done. Regarding denominations my source is Wikipedia. The Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth because we have the Seven Sacraments established by Christ - Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Confession, Matrimony, Holy Orders and Anointing of the Sick.

Re: Death Penalty

The Church’s constant teaching regarding capital punishment is that the State has (under certain conditions) the right to inflict said punishment on convicted felons. JP II did not teach otherwise.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Dear Mr D’Hippolito. You’ve yet top come-up with a New Testament Scripture teaching that the Church Jesus established would fall into apostasy. That is what the Mormons believe,, but they aint Christian.

A perfect society does exist. It is The Catholic Church.

I have done a 180 reversal on my original opinion that what Obama did was cool. Like so many times before in my life,I allowed myself to be swayed by the political drama and over-looked all of the many immoral illegal and insane illegalities that our country specialises in.

Obama had hm assassinated because he had too much info - on us and our allies.

I am embarrassed to have to confess that I was taken in by the woof and warf of the theatrics

Vermont Crank, you’ve really left me flummoxed! Are you sure Pres. Obama didn’t call Dick Marcincko, the “Rogue Warrior” out of retirement, (sigh, yeah, even called up up for duty and out of his hot tub while he had gals on both sides while drinking his favorite beverage, a Bombay Gin) to put an end to bin Laden’s sick video fantasies over having too much info? Or was it that OBL had the inside knowledge that the real birth certificate indicates the president’s birth having taken place in Cambridge, MA, home town of the Kremlin on the Charles?

Gary - get a grip! Osam was taken down (killed) by US Navy Seals on Mercy Sunday ... so what? Are you suggesting that we should show mercy to a ravenous killer? Pray for his soul? What for? He chose his own hell all by himself - besides he wasn’t Catholic or even Christian, in fact, he sought to kill infidels, including you - if he had the chance.  Why most humanity suffer death and destruction because he “might at some point turn his life around and become what - Christian”?  Not a chance.
This was a pre-emptive - just war - strike to prevent the future killings of more innocent people. I rejoice at his demise - I only wish, God our Heavenly Father would have zapped him on Sep 10, 2001 or before and saved us the death and missery His ‘child’ brought upon us. God chose not to do that - it was up to the US Navy Seals to do the job for Him.

Re: Vengeance Belongs to the Lord

“Pray for his soul? What for?”
For his eternal salvation. Because Christ has commanded us to.
“besides he wasn’t Catholic or even Christian”
Neither was Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses and Saint Joseph. Neither were you before you were baptized.
“Why most humanity suffer death and destruction because he “might at some point turn his life around and become what - Christian”?  Not a chance.”
And what chance do you give to Mr. Bin Laden, or any sinner to include yourself, to reform his life if you murder him without warning and in cold blood?
“This was a pre-emptive - just war - strike to prevent the future killings of more innocent people.”
The Church teaches that preemptive war is immoral.
“God chose not to do that - it was up to the US Navy Seals to do the job for Him.”
So now you place SEALS above God?

God bless

Richard W Comerford

And now a word to Mr. Comerford:  Your tiatribes are idotic at best and treasenous at worst. You are not part of the Church’s Magistrate and you would bring your point across alot better (if that’s even possible) if you stopped referring to that death SOB by the title ‘Mr.’
Maybe all your stupid remarks should be forwarded to the appropriate authorities (both the Church & Government) to see if you are not in reality a sympathizer of America’s enemies.
Nobody in their mind would give any serious consideration to any of the anti-American crap you spout. You do more damage and scandal to the Church by your ridiculous moral relavancy arguments.
If you (and your wife Mary) want pray for OBL, go knock yourself out - but know this, it would be blasphamous and heretical for you to do so.  Have you considered becoming a muslim - they would welcome you with open arms ... just before they cut off your head.
As I said before - the US Navy Seal team did what God refused to do -  they took action to prevent more innocent folks (infidels, like you) from dying at OBL’s hand.
If God had done His job as our Father - to protect us from unnecessary death and destruction at OBL’s - and his henchmen’s hand prior to Sep 11, 2001, by zapping him into eternity, than the brave men of the US Navy Seal team wouldn’t have felt obliged to do themselves. You do know, they did not kill his family (except for his son) - though they could have ... and I, for one, would not have cried even one tear.
Finally, quit using the phrase “God bless you”, every time you correct somebody’s opinion - it’s annoying and obvious, you don’t really mean it.
Go make an appointment to see the closest Imam - you’re in the wrong church.
I could pray for you - but I don;t invest time in lost causes.

Richard W. Comerford responds to “Bob”  ..... “Neither was Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses and Saint Joseph. Neither were you before you were baptized.  Richard,—Adam and Eve “had”—prior to the fall, perfect union with the Lord.  They were not born in sin nor was death in their future until sin entered the world.  Furthermore, Abraham’s “obedience” was declared righteousness before the Lord.  Of Moses, the Lord is quoted that Moses was the greatest of the prophets.  Water baptism was not a condition of salvation then and it is not a condition of salvation now.  The thief executed with Jesus was never baptized yet salvation was granted to him as well out of Christ’s own mouth.

“Why most humanity suffer death and destruction because he “might at some point turn his life around and become what - Christian”?  Not a chance.  ”And what chance do you give to Mr. Bin Laden, or any sinner to include yourself, to reform his life if you murder him without warning and in cold blood?  .....Richard, that is exactly the point.  One never knows how much time you actually have to come to the Lord.  Whether bin Laden or you (Richard) driving down the street and you suffer a heart attack.  Death comes at a time least expected.  One has their “chance” to reform their life—before death—and come to Christ.  It is the man who waits too long and then as Jesus said:  “You fool, for tonight your life may be required of you.”

“Adam and Eve “had”—prior to the fall, perfect union with the Lord.  They were not born in sin nor was death in their future until sin entered the world.  Furthermore, Abraham’s “obedience” was declared righteousness before the Lord.  Of Moses, the Lord is quoted that Moses was the greatest of the prophets.  Water baptism was not a condition of salvation then and it is not a condition of salvation now.  The thief executed with Jesus was never baptized yet salvation was granted to him as well out of Christ’s own mouth.
So? They still were not members of the Catholic Church. But that does not mean they are not in heaven. And non Christians or non-Catholcis cannot be murdered in cold blood by Navy SEALS as my correspondent seems to suggest.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

“if you stopped referring to that death SOB by the title ‘Mr.’”
Back in the Dark Ages I served in both Army Special Forces on a police tactical unit. Suspects or targets are always referred to politely in open communications. This is not a video game.
“Maybe all your stupid remarks should be forwarded to the appropriate authorities (both the Church & Government) to see if you are not in reality a sympathizer of America’s enemies.”
Are you also going to report me to the Party Comrade? Or tell Sister Mary Holy Picture? Or Mom and Dad? Why is it that you tuff guys who advocate blood and murder are such tattletales? Besides starting with the POW/MIA issue I have been tattled on several times. Get in line.
“Nobody in their mind would give any serious consideration to any of the anti-American crap you spout.”
Just the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
“If you (and your wife Mary) want pray for OBL, go knock yourself out - but know this, it would be blasphamous and heretical for you to do so.”
No. Christ has commanded us to pray for our enemies.
“Have you considered becoming a muslim - they would welcome you with open arms ... just before they cut off your head.”
During the Cold War we called these guys “Freedom Fighters”.
“the US Navy Seal team did what God refused to do”
Great. You are placing SEALS and the President above God. 
“If God had done His job as our Father”
Careful now. God loves us more than we can know. He is the perfect loving Father.
“the brave men of the US Navy Seal team wouldn’t have felt obliged to do themselves.”
There is nothing brave about shooting an old, sick and unarmed man in cold blood.
“they did not kill his family (except for his son) - though they could have”
That is called a “war crime”. There are young soldiers now sitting in Fort Leavenworth, imprisoned, for doing the exact same thing.
“Go make an appointment to see the closest Imam - you’re in the wrong church.”
My Church tells me to love my enemy, to return good for evil and to forgive 7 times 70.

God bless

Richard WComerford

God bless Richard “W” Comeford who writes:  “So? They still were not members of the Catholic Church. But that does not mean they are not in heaven. And non Christians or non-Catholcis cannot be murdered in cold blood by Navy SEALS as my correspondent seems to suggest.”

There is your problem, Richard W. Comerford.  Whether someone is Christian, non Christian or non Catholic is not the issue.  If you run out of time to come to Christ whether by choice or not by choice —THAT is your problem.  “Today is the day of salvation” not tomorrow or some day in the future.  Mr. bin Laden ran out of time.

Re: Can We Kill Muslims Because They are Not Christians?

“Whether someone is Christian, non Christian or non Catholic is not the issue.”
Wrong. It certainly is. My correspondent is suggesting that Mr. Bin Laden was justifiably killed because he was no ta Christian.
“If you run out of time to come to Christ whether by choice or not by choice —THAT is your problem.”
Wrong again. The Christian faith is a gift from God. A most precious gift.
“Mr. bin Laden ran out of time.”
Can you look into Mr. Bin Laden’s soul? HE may have died in a state of grace at peace with God - please God may it be so. One does not have to be a baptized Christian to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

God bless\

Richard W Comerford

Richard W. Comerford writes:  “Can We Kill Muslims Because They are Not Christians?  That’s an idiotic question.  Of course not.  The Catholic church regretfully learned that lesson in the Crusades; (so much for the Magisterium being “guided” by the Holy Spirit in all things.  Whether bin Laden was a Muslim, Taoist or an environmentalist wacko is not the point.  He was a enemy of the state and the world waging war upon Christians and Jews throughout the world.  He was a combatant sworn to waging a holy war of terrorism against all non-Islamic people.  We do not judge the state of a man’s soul, however we can judge the “fruit” of their works —“Ye shall know them by their fruit.”  bin Laden produced bad fruit.  If he was at peace with God —that God is Allah, not the God of the Bible.  Salvation is only through Christ, not Allah.  “No man comes to the Father but by Me” as Jesus said.  There is no other means of salvation.  bin Laden KNEW the truth of Islam and KNEW the truth of Christianity.  He was an educated man.  His path was Allah, not Christ.  To believe otherwise, you are under deception.

Re: Can We Kill Muslims Because They are Not Christians II?

“That’s an idiotic question.  Of course not”
Then why has it repeatedly been used as justification for the murder of Mr. Bin Laden in this very thread?

“The Catholic church regretfully learned that lesson in the Crusades”
Wrong, The Church never taught at any time that Muslims could be killed simply because they were not Christians.

“If he was at peace with God —that God is Allah, not the God of the Bible.”
There is only one God. If he was at peace with God at the moment of his death then he was at peace with Christ.

“bin Laden KNEW the truth of Islam and KNEW the truth of Christianity.  He was an educated man.”
Many Western Intellectuals know close to nothing about Christianity. More cannot be expected from Mr. Bin Laden;. No one But God knew the state of his soul at the moment he was murdered. Let us pray he was at peace with his Maker.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

God bless Richard W. Comerford who writes:  “Then why has it repeatedly been used as justification for the murder of Mr. Bin Laden in this very thread?  *****  Your argument is not with me.  I have never advocated nor supported bin Laden’s killing because he was not a Christian.  That would be ridiculous.  You further state:  “There is only one God. If he was at peace with God at the moment of his death then he was at peace with Christ.  That is a false statement.  Allah is not the God of the Bible.  bin Laden was devoted to and worshipped Allah —a false God.  Your advocacy of worshipping “strange gods” violates the commandment handed down to Moses.  All paths lead to God does not have biblical foundation.  As I said earlier, you are under deception.  There is but one path leading to the Father —that is the man Christ Jesus.

Franklin Graham couldn’t have put it better than “New Observer” when he wrote, “There is is but one path leading to the Father—that is the man Christ Jesus.”  That is if one wants to imitate Mr. Graham and espouse his very narrow Fundamentalist perspective. Even Jesus never intended that his words be taken so literally since he was at the time, only addressing his immediate disciples, his apostles and trying very hard at times to get it into their heads and hearts who was in their immediate company.
  Did Jesus tell his apostles they had to form a “Bible believing church” when there were no clearly identifiable “Christian” scrolls until decades later? And if by chance, for the sake of argument, any readers should somehow be nudged by a symbol, act or discussion held with a non-Christian or even a full-fledged atheist, into looking into Christianity and its truths, what role did the Bible play in such instances when there’s greater reason to believe these non-Scriptural events (“nudges” so to speak) are the work of the Holy Spirit?
  Of course I was using some word play above, but to point out the dangers of applying Scripture too literally. It’s not the Catholic way, and it never has been. Our Protestant friends have been saying that for almost five centuries. Alas, they’ve forgotten some of the reasons why we’re not strict literalists so the divide continues to remain and in some cases and regions, it’s getting wider.
  My apologies to you Richard for the way I came across earlier. I was unaware of your service record and specific duties, which has qualified you immensely to make the points you have thus far. In my zeal to make a point about the dangers of appeasement, I let my enthusiasm get the better part of making (mental) judgment. Also, please accept my thanks for your service to our country.
  Getting back to the pitfalls of using the Franklin Graham/Fundamentalist prism and applying what’s seen to the world as it presently exists is that it unnecessarily ratchets up the more potentially dangerous emotional-half of the (essential) bedrock loyalty we, as Catholics, should have for God. What am I getting at? The Huffington Post ran several months ago (through Chris Rocca’s excellent reporting) stories about the rising influence of very hard-core and over zealously jingoistic Evangelicals within the Army, especially within the Evangelical chaplaincy.
  This will do wonders for our undertakers back home, not to mention keep al Qaeda’s file of recruit wannabes wanting for more reasons to sign up and kill “infidel Christian crusaders for Allah” bulging out of their rolodexes. But to what end?
  I’ll tell you what end; cemeteries becoming filled with more young people slaughtered not for really defending their country and homeland; but for spreading an imperialistic pseudo notion of what means to die for God and country. And often the people doing the loudest talking for spreading this imperial quest are the ones who are making the most money in the process.
  Are the jingoists on Fox any different than Wm. Randolph Hearsts’ pack of reporters who ginned up our first imperial quest? All in the name of God and country and saving the better part of “western civilization” after the Spaniards blew their (centuries long) opportunities. Is Fox any different when it allows Sean Hannity to stay on its payrolls after he didn’t immediately and publicly repudiate actor Vince Curatola, (Sopranos),a guest panelist for “The Great American Panel”  on his show for used the words “camel jockey” on May 9th?  http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201105090030 The fact that no corporate or editorial heads rolled for that performance and its lack of appropriate follow up discipline may well lead to the heads of others rolling overseas;  but literally, then.
  Indeed, we American Christians, including some of the most virulently jingoistic American Catholic Christians, “surely” know and show the way, don’t we? Hell, we can’t even find our way out of the confusion we’ve sown and the blood we’ve wasted in countless vain attempts after another to demonstrate how sure we are that we have the road map to heaven and we follow it better than anybody else; the much bloodied n’ deliberately ignored facts notwithstanding. Given the spotty results of our long struggle against organized terrorist networks, (which should’ve been the only struggle) it wouldn’be too much of a stretch to suggest that no thanks to our more gung-ho neocon patriots and the growing ranks of crusading Christian mirror-jihadists, this war has lasted much longer than it should’ve.
  Sickest of all, they’ve been loudest voices in the “Obama is on a victory lap” halleluliah choir.
  While not ready to use the word “murder” in context to what the Seals did in Abbottobad, as time passes and more evidence surfaces about the rush to involve this country in an invasion of Iraq on false grounds in order to settle personal family matters (Bush/Hussein) and capture Iraq’s oil; the more ashamed I’m becoming of the votes I cast on behalf of the previous administration. A finer telling indicator of what the whole Iraq diversion was all about couldn’t have been more clearly telegraphed to the entire world than when we entered Baghdad and the first thing we did was to secure the nation’s oil ministry offices while allowing looters to vandalize and grab all they could take by hand, card, car, pickup truck ... out of the Iraqi museum of antiquities…some of which even predate our Father Abraham.
  Remember, the same people whining about President Obama’s very subdued “victory lap” are the same big loudmouths who didn’t even bother to drive out of the pit lane in 2001 when they learned what Osama bin Laden was running circles around them.

Steven, your argument is not with myself or Franklin Graham (you chose him).  Your first argument is with St. Paul.  1 Timothy 2:5 says:  “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”  Your second argument is countering the gospel of the apostle John (whom by the way, is the apostle that Jesus loved).  Jesus says in John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  So, you see, Steven,—neither myself nor Franklin Graham are saying these things.  You have a problem with St. Paul and Christ Jesus and have chosen your own way and chosen to dismiss the words of Christ and St. Paul as liars and fundamentalists.

@ New Oberserver - Water Baptism using the Trinitarian formula is the ordinary means for salvation. Jesus commanded it. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are monothestic religions. All believe in One God. It is inaccurate, therefore to state that Muslims believe in a “different God”.  All, however, are saved through Jesus Christ. Catholics do not espouse a literalistic approach to the interpretation of all scripture passages. To do so would be to approach scripture interpretation incorrectly. One must consider who was writing and to whom it was written and put it into the full context of salvation history. As I have said before, pulling passages out that will somehow align with our own beliefs is in error.

Amy, show me —show us—where Jesus “commanded” water baptism is a means of salvation?  He certainly did not tell Nicodemus water baptism was a requirement.

@New Observer - Jesus commanded - “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” This is the invitation to salvation and removes the sin of Adam and Eve from our soul and makes us children of God. Baptism transforms us and conforms us to Christ. The Sacraments of Christian Initiation are Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist. These Sacraments were instituted by Christ.

Amy, we baptize adults who step forward in faith.  How is an infant “transformed” (as you say) when the infant knows nothing of what is happening and has not agreed to being baptized?  Faith comes by hearing, not by baptism first.

Re: Can We Kill Muslims Because They are Not Christians III?

The Catholic Church teaches that there is but one God. There are three divine Persons in this one God. The Second Person of this divine Trinity is Jesus Christ. Not all know Jesus Christ. However that does not mean that those who do not know Christ cannot enter heaven. A man who is at peace with God, although he may call that God by another name than Christ and know Him not, is at peace with Christ. Through this Christ goes the only path to salvation.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

God bless Richard W. Comerford who writes:  “A man who is at peace with God, although he may call that God by another name than Christ and know Him not, is at peace with Christ. Through this Christ goes the only path to salvation.”  Richard, does it matter if one worships Allah instead of Christ?  Is there a difference?

Forgive me New Observer. I’m just one of those big picture Catholics who just don’t have the time o’ day nor inclination to engage in useless exercises of text-proofing. BTW, I notice you had ZILCH to say about the woeful ways Chistians, particularly the AMERICAN-FIRST Christian jingoists approach this war on terror. That’s a big picture topic.  Maybe it’s just too big for some people who try hard as hell every waking morning to find one more way to narrow that door much moresoe than Jesus would’ve given two thoughts to doing.
  Jesus always looked at the Big Picture: So can we all.

@New Observer - Jesus never said that children could not be baptized. The Bible contains scriptural passages of entire families being baptized (this would include children). As I indicated, the sin of Adam and Eve (Original Sin) is removed at Baptism and makes us children of God, conforms us to Christ and provides us with the grace of the Holy Spirit that we all need to assist us in our Christian walk. The parents present the child for Baptism and agree to raise the child a Christian which the child has now become. When the child is older and has reached the age of reason they are Confirmed. In the Catholic Church, adults who come to faith through the RCIA need to demonstrate belief.

Re: Can We Kill Muslims Because They are Not Christians IV?

“Richard, does it matter if one worships Allah instead of Christ?  Is there a difference?”

Short answer: Yes

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Steven, Jesus never said salvation was by way of a “big tent” or “big picture” approach.  That may sound nice in church each Sunday, but Jesus did say the road is narrow.  You apparently have problems with things Jesus actually said.  Was Jesus lying to us?  Why would He say such things if they are not true?

Amy, if what you say is true, then why are only approximately 32% of people who call themselves Catholic attending mass weekly?  Where is their “faith” obtained from sacramental baptism, eucharist and confirmation?

@New Observer - The Sacraments provide us with grace; but God also gave us free will. He doesn’t manipulate our decisions. If we don’t respond to the grace He gives us it is because we have chosen something other than demonstrating our faith as in weekly Mass attendance. Catholics are not the only group with poor mass attendance. Attendance at worship services crosses denominational lines and religions. It’s a sign of the times. People don’t want to make time for God in their life.

“The big question, still, is what kind of reprisals may be coming and whether bin Laden will long-term be perceived as a martyr or a failure”

A martyr lets his own blood be shed - he doesn’t kill others. OBL is a martyr in the same sense as Reinhard Heydrich, the rightly murdered (& very nasty ) Gauleiter of Moravia. A death is not martyrdom when a cause is morally vile. To put OBL in the same class as Christian martyrs, even for a second, by calling him a martyr, is utterly revolting.

It would be interesting what Arabic word is being Englished as “martyrdom”, and what its nuances are. What suicide bombers do is far closer to “self-devotion”, familiar from some episodes in Roman history, than to martyrdom. Suicide bombing at the cost of the life of the bomber looks like a secularised (?) version of self-devotion. The nearest to a Biblical analogy is the case of Samson in Judges 16, though the instance of Eleazar the Maccabee is similar. The SBs differ in that their actions are not obviously acts of war from the POV of people outside their culture: unlike these others.

Re: One Man’s Martyr is Another Man’s Terrorist.

“OBL is a martyr in the same sense as Reinhard Heydrich”

I am sure that the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims all agree with you.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

Not all Muslims supported OBL, so I doubt it.

Re: One Man’s Martyr is Another Man’s Terrorist.

“Not all Muslims supported OBL, so I doubt it.”

And perhaps more supported the Soviet Union during their occupation of Afghan; as do our occupation of Afghan, But that matters not. Enough were willing to wage Holy War. The Soviet Union is no more. The Taliban is now on the offensives. And the USA appears on its way out. We have created a martyr whether or not the West wishes to acknowledge him as such. Enough are still willing to wage Holy War.

God bless

Richard W Comerford

New Observer…What on earth possesses you to be so intransigently narrow-minded? Before you answer,recall the first three words in the sentence above.

I agree with many of the comments.  I have been roman catholic all my life, and the ultimate decision of course is not our decision, and God ‘s decision and he will judge Bin Laden as he will all of us. Blame, hatred does not help to heal.  I have learned a long time ago,  TO LET GO AND LET GOD!  It really works. God Bless all   A

Steven, I am only addressing your opinion concerning “Jesus looked at the big picture.”  Grace is indeed extended to those with a heart willing to repent and accept it.  You say my comments are narrow minded which Scripturally they are not.  In fact, it is Jesus whom you are accusing of being narrow minded.  It is He who tells us “Broad is the road that leadeth to destruction and narrow is the gate that leads to salvation” —AND, Steven, Jesus then said:  “And few there are that find it.”  That sound pretty narrow to me, but you wish to mold Jesus into your fictional idea of who He is so that you find Him more palitable in your life.  Instead of telling me I am narrow minded, your problem is with Christ.  Your idea of theology runs counter to Scripture.  I have run into nuns who think as you do and say “everyone is going to Heaven.”  Unfortunately, the gospel says otherwise.

New Observer, no, my problem isn’t with Christ; it’s with a narrow human interpretation of scripture in such constricted ways that would put a mile wide smile on the most humor-challenged Pharisee of Jesus’ time. I’ve heard that line “your problem is with Jesus” in a Bible Church I belonged to ... and the more I heard it, the more I kept looking for the exit signs and finally came back home to the Catholic Church. And had there not been a Catholic parish nearby, I would’ve gladly settled for an Episcopalian parish ... anything BUT the kind of “we’re in/you’re in tough crap” kind of church. Thanks for your reply, but you’re still 99 bucks short of a C-note on this brother. And take it from a Catholic who was taught by nuns, they know what they’re talking about. Even the Episcopalian nuns do and they’re a lot more liberal than Catholic nuns.

New Observer, no, my problem isn’t with Christ; it’s with a narrow human interpretation of scripture in such constricted ways that would put a mile wide smile on the most humor-challenged Pharisee of Jesus’ time. I’ve heard that line “your problem is with Jesus” in a Bible Church I belonged to ... and the more I heard it, the more I kept looking for the exit signs and finally came back home to the Catholic Church. And had there not been a Catholic parish nearby, I would’ve gladly settled for an Episcopalian parish ... anything BUT the kind of “we’re in/you’re in tough crap” kind of church. Thanks for your reply, but you’re still 99 bucks short of a C-note on this brother. And take it from a Catholic who was taught by nuns, they know what they’re talking about. Even the Episcopalian nuns do and they’re a lot more liberal than Catholic nuns.
  Besides, this has wandered far off the bin Laden topic, hasn’t it?

Steven, I never heard we are not to take the words of Jesus literally since we believe He is “truth.”  Whose in/out rests with Him.  Surprising you received that teaching in the Espiscopal church since I hear they have gone quite liberal concerning the gospel.  No need to insult me with the C-note comment since I do sympathize with how you might feel.  It was you who injected the comments re Franklin Graham and Bible believing churches —but I will lay aside any further comments going forward.  I only think watering down the gospel in sermons and homiles to not offend some people is not a healthy thing for any church to do be they Catholic or Protestant.  No problem moving back to bin Laden.  Peace and Truce, Steven.