Hats off to you dear friend in Christ! You have been given the gift of faith and the gift of language-thanks for using it as such.
Also, to add to your essay; think too, who does Satan want to destroy-the watered down sects? No, Satan, wants to destroy the one true Church. That is why the media goes for every negative word and doesn’t bother to do a thorough job of investigation.
Again, thanks be to God for you and for your essay.
God Bless

“The Catholic Church has claimed all along that this is an institution “powered by” God, so to speak.”

The problem with such claims is that once made, they stop all arguments to the contrary.  No matter what facts one presents they hold no weight, enlight of the above statement.  You can’t win.

So Ms. Fulwiller, “my research led me to see that that was common in all organizations, not just the Church.”
Why is it that so few of those OTHER organizations have been sued and/or forced to agree to pay BILLIONS of dollars in punishment for their EQUALL:Y EGREGIOUS transgressions???
Is it because victims of OTHER organizations don’t suffer if those organizations abuse them?
Is it because lawyers aren’t interested in taking cases, unless it’s against the Catholic Church?
Is it because courts don’t care about harm done by OTHER organizaions, and won’t render judgnents aagainst any OTHER organization? 
Or is commenter John Shuster right on target when he writes “Systemic self deception is a sign that a religion in being managed as a cult and not as a free spiritual community.”
?
See why the “One, True Church” is so WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, at http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/

I will not bother to visit the site Rev. Dubuque recommends because the castigations he throws at the Church actually contain some truth -

-there are too many lawyers who see the Church as a seemingly bottomless source of money while they know the local school system might not be and the local soccer organization certainly isn’t. 

-too many victims of the other organizations are brushed under the carpet and ignored due to pressure from family and friends (‘Coach Bob is such a good coach’).  This same attitude prevailed in the Church for too long but eventually was uncovered.  Perhaps in the next few years we will see SOTCA (Survivors of Teacher/Coach Abuse) created

-and yes, these institutions are pressured by teacher’s unions from prosecuting with threats of strikes and other strong arm tactics.  A number of undercover investigations (such as John Stossel) have been done revealing the number of teachers who sit, all day, doing nothing while being paid because the school system doesn’t have the money, interest or incentive to prosecute.

There is evil afoot dear Reverend and it is directly squarely at Rome - or have you never read the NY Times?

Look if your religion or organization had over a 2000 year history, it would have a few skeletons in it’s closet also.  Can you imagine how many men, far greater than today’s media, have tried to destroy the Catholic Church and failed? It will never happen because Jesus promised He would be with the Church until the end of time, and He is always faithful to His promises. Just to answer one question, they have come after the Catholic Church because it has deep pockets and the only one with deep enough pockets for them to make plenty of money when they win a case.

“No matter what facts one presents they hold no weight, enlight of the above statement.  You can’t win.”

If it is true then how is this a counter argument? Ms. Fulwiler is supporting the claim of being powered by God.  You can counter her examples. 

“Why is it that so few of those OTHER organizations have been sued and/or forced to agree to pay BILLIONS of dollars in punishment for their EQUALL:Y EGREGIOUS transgressions???”

Because the Church as a whole is acknowledging its failures.  Unlike most other institutions they are coming clean.

More recent evidence, including the John Jay Report of 2004 and CARA Reports show that around 5.4% of the active priest population (almost 6,000 priests) in the United States had a complaint of sexual abuse against them from 1950 to present.  This 5.4% figure is likely an underestimate given traditional underreporting of sexual abuse, especially that involving children.  Additionally, the reports were based entirely on information given to it by the dioceses. 

You’re right that the sexual crimes and coverups are not unique to the Catholic Church.  But when is it a defense for the Catholic Church to say that it is just like the rest of society?  Isn’t the Catholic Church supposed to be a moral example?

And did not Jesus himself chose some who were totally disloyal to Him… to the extent that they betrayed Him so painfully? The Catholic Church has saints and sinners and will continue to do so till the end of time. BUT WHAT THE CATHOLIC FAITH TEACHES US HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. Welcome to the church, Jennifer. A church that has as its founder as Jesus Himself. Even in the best of families there are some black sheep. As Catholics our faith is not based on the faithfulness or lack of it,  of priests.. but on a relationship with Jesus Christ, who comes to us hidden in the Eucharist, where He is really and truly present. He does not make Himself present only if a holy priest celebrates Holy Mass. He is present even if the most sinful priest celebrates. Such is His love for us that He comes no matter what. Let us pray for the sanctity of priests and let that be the focus of our attention. It is our prayers that will help good priests to be better and sinful ones to repentance.
God bless you all.

Ms. Fulwiler, thanks for the article, very interesting to know you perspective on this as you and your husband started looking into these matters

Of course the Church is the moral example.  What She claims is to know are truths of faith and morals.  Their is a difference between infallibility and impeccability.  Whereas She proposes Her teachings come from Christ and that He is Her Bridegroom, she makes no teaching that says “All Catholics are perfect.”  In fact, she claims the opposite true, that man is born with original sin and is inclined to sin but through the help of grace and cooperation with God, a person can lead a virtuous life.  She offers examples of those people that imitate Christ, namely the saints.

I think it was Benedict XIV who has said that the very fact that the church has survived this scandal and countless scandals going back through the centuries is evidence that God’s hand is steering her.  Surely, it should have fallen and collapsed by now.  And, yet, it just keeps going and going and growing.  Go figure.

The highest numbers of child sexual abuse are commited by the parents and relatives of the child. And most of them are not reported. This is a fact. I’m not making any excuses for the Church. The Church will be here long after we are dust. The bottomline, God defeats evil everytime. Only God is perfect, All you see and not see is His creation. He cause all causes. We will never fully understand God with our limited human knowledge. We think we are smart, think agan.

It wasn’t just 2% priests in the Catholic Church that did this..it was SO prevalent with other Pastor’s of other denominations and tragically many more within victims own families..

It was ONLY!!! the Catholic Church..that had the guts to apologize for this horrible and tragic preying of young children…and are Still is owning up to this failure. I hurt badly..and I empathize other victims but I also respect their sincerity to be sorry. It has taken over 40years to come to this and it is “work” everyday.

I am still waiting for my apology from my family members and the protestant pastor that thought I was his daughter…He was too drunk to notice.

I stand behind this over 2000yr fortress called the Catholic Church. It was only by forgiving that I was able to move on…but that doesn’t mean I have relationships with these people. I have had to learn boundaries.

@Rev. Ray Dubuque
Stop trolling on this site, I read all about you and your shameful circus ministry similar to Jim Jones.  You are a false prophet indeed.

How about you spend your time investigating why almost 90% of the sexual abuse crimes are by MEN.  I think this is more of a gender issue than a Catholic issue.  God will surely judge but perhaps you can help the world by good deeds instead of false messages.
This granny has heard enough from you and Im sure the Obama loving hippy with you John Shuster!!!

Well said sister in Christ! I too began my journey in 2005 during the media frenzy of Catholic scandals.  That never even gave me pause. I know men are sinners- if they weren’t Jesus wouldn’t have come to die for our sins.  We are all sinners in need of a Savior.
The fact that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Christ created on earth is what drew me in. I didn’t want a church that some sinful man had created based on his personal interpretation of the bible. I wanted what God had gifted the world with- His Church. I did not become a Catholic because of who the members were, but rather who the Founder was.

The Church is and will be persecuted in worse ways than the sex scandal.It has already been foretold,so any attack,especially from the media is becomming a bore.Christ did say He will remove the weeds from the wheat concerning His church and perhaps this is whats happening now.Priests are our shepherds..they are also soldiers on the front lines of a spiritual warfare..they need our prayers as ammo..without them they fall.Pray for all priests..especially those that have fallen.The devil hates them because they can can through the power of God..bring us the True Body and Blood of Christ..the food which is the life of our souls.If Satan can diminish their numbers or erradicate them all together..it would make it easier for him to drag more souls to ruin.Fortunately we have the promise of Christ who said the gates of Hell shall never prevail against it.I pray that the authorities of the church will return to it’s vass source of treasures and Traditions given it to fight the evil that is growing day by day.

Beautiful piece! It truly speaks to the reality of our situation as Catholics, both good and bad. Thank you for continuing to write, Jen! The NCR has a real gift in having you as a writer.

Rev.Ray..your still at it?With your hateful un-Christian like attacks upon our faith? Don’t you have something better to do..you kick at steel walls with feet of clay.I never heard back from you..what troubles you so much brother that you are so hateful and angry at the church?You never gave me an answere.If you do not agree with Catholicism and your comfortable in your little niche of beliefs that suit you..why do you bother Catholics?No one is forcing you to accept the teachings of Catholicism and who are you to go against the Will of God?I still think something bad happened to you and you seek answeres or something..if you still have my e-mail..I’m here..I will listen and try to understand..but please stop the ugly attacks..imagine Christ carrying His Cross and your in the crowd hurling stones and spittle and blasphemy at Him…why?

Thanks Jen for a remarkable post.  You must know you have gained popularity when detractors come out in droves for just about every post you make now.  I think this one was spot on.  We have report after report in the news about school teachers, and music teachers, and coaches being arrested and accused, but they are one story or maybe two and you never hear about it again. If a priest gets accused then there is an expose that lasts weeks. The fact that married men abuse something like twice the number of people than priests gets buried.  People don’t seem to be worried about their next door neighbor, but get all excited about priests.  They are held to a higher standard, but priests are not perfect.  They still are human and they still make mistakes. I agree that the fact that they accomplish all they do is a sign of Someone giving them (and us) help.

Jen - I would only disagree about one point you make. While it is true that coaches and teachers aren’t representatives of God, they are people with enormous influence and power over their students. Making their crimes against them as bad as those of a priest.

Puleeeeeeze…give me a break!  This article is smoke and mirrors mixed with gyrations and opium.

Totally ridiculous.  The rationale of also associating Coaches, Scout Leaders, Teachers et al doesn’t wash.  Not even close.  Taking this approach is like when Adam complained to the Lord:  “the woman YOU gave me, it was her!  She gave me the apple to eat.”  Instead of looking at others, how about OWNING the problem.  Are not Priests held to an even higher standard?  We are told they are “other Christ’s” and representatives of God.  And frankly, it’s the cover up by Bishops which has made things worse.  Benedict and the Bishops should join Obama on his incessant world apology tours.  The idea that these scandals should increase one’s faith in the church is silly.  By default, that logic would then mean we need more scandals which would thus produce more faith.  Have a nice day.

Perhaps your faith is misdirected.  How about placing more faith in Christ and devoting less faith to those running the institutional church.

Dear Jennifer, You testify more to the subtle love in the Eucharist, prayer and confession, (John 20:22) than
do your statistics ease one’s concerns that their children are safe. It’s true that our relationship with The Perfect One is that of Peter who took a few steps and fell in the water, which is a fact repeated endlessly and that those who don’t acknowledge their hunger for perfection as being in Christ will look earnestly for perfection in all matters of things; breathtaking mathematical calculations, political solutions, law and so forth which is all fair and part of the human quest. When this quest for perfection is directed at others, the results are rather critical, even ruthless. Nevertheless, the sadness of this story is that people must cast a wary eye upon many who give themselves selflessly to a cause which is worthy of such sacrifices. The statistics may be relevant as a concern for society in general, but it is a sad matter that good religious people have to endure the shadow cast by serious sex offenders who often don’t even acknowledge they’ve done anything wrong and that for too long were shielded. It’s also sad matter that we Catholics have to endure the same shadow.

Thanks for writing this. I always love your articles. I read a lot of Church history after I converted, and I had a similar reaction to that. Aside from maybe five minutes during the twelfth century, Catholic history was more often than not somewhat less than edifying. And yet the Gospel is taught and saints are made. It must be God, because it sure isn’t us.

Very beautifully and clearly written account about who has created and moved the Church for all of the centuries since Jesus Christ founded it: Jesus Christ, through His Holy Spirit. And He is still in charge! Thank you, Jennifer, for your very wise article!

Cami Murphy

“This article is smoke and mirrors mixed with gyrations and opium.”

While erroneous as a claim about the article, this was a delightfully muddled image that made me smile.  Are the mirrors mixed with the opium, or perhaps the smoke?  Are the mirrors GYRATING??

Dear Jen,
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I was immediately drawn by the title, since the scandals (pace “lector at mass”) were precisely what brought me back to the church after years of paganism followed by a long apprenticeship in evangelical Protestantism. I fear my reasons were not quite so logical as yours, however; what attracted me was the fact that the Church was being attacked and the fact that She was being attacked by known enemies of Christ, both from within and from without. There I stood, in my rational Lutheran refuge, watching the armies of Mordor swarm around the ramparts of Minas Tirith, and the cry in my heart was, “You can’t do that to my mother!”

So I came home, embarrassed and sulky, to take my place on the wall. And I kind of like it here.

We’ve had our disagreements (and they were all my fault, of course) but when push comes to shove, She’s still my mom. Besides, I know Who she follows (however imperfectly) and I know who’s leading that other army.

The way I figure it, in everybody’s life there’s a time to stop complaining about your mom and do the grown-up thing. Defend her. Stand with her. Help her when she stumbles, but never forget that you’ll have to answer to your Father for what you did, and what you failed to do, in Her defense.

Cami Murphy,—one should also consider that through “His Spirit” Christ is compelled to reveal and purge all this evil which must be disgusting and likewise repulsive to His Spirit.  .

When the “scandals” are written about, it is mostly the sexual abuse of children by clergy that’s addressed.  But priests and bishops are still having sexual relationships with women all over the world, right now.  In the United States, the problem is priests having sex with other men.  This is not behavior becoming of ordained clergymen.  It is not how our Church was intended to be.  $1 billion was paid out in the United States.
Most of it is only for the sexual abuse of children.

Loved this!  This is so insightful and your journey to the Church so real and in the face of so much that could have deterred you!  Someone is definitely at work in your life and in the Church! As always, wonderful article!

I find what you say to be very naive and as far as I could see in your “treatise”, you do not have any children.  At least old enough to be on their own in   A RC   CHURCH setting. IF YOU DID THIS WOULD BRING A HUGE, BEASTLY, EVIL INTO THE SETTING   FOR YOUR CHILD.

How do you know that the “one evil “god “person ” is not the one who wants to groom “your child” for sexual abuse?  Would you take the chance.(even with your statistic’s which are terribly wrong)??  One priest, brother or sister can(and needs to)  GROOM AND SEXUALLY abuse hundreds, if not thousands of handicapped,  marginalized and precious children over their lifetimes as religious. 

I am in my early 80’s and have 4 grown children,  7   grown grand children and 2 great grandchildren, still not in school.  I know by where by I speak!  We left this evil place 10 yrs ago..
  I raised 4 children in the church.  I was everthing in the church that I could be (as a woman). But When God showed us that everything our Religious realtives had told us, over the many years,(that we didn’t want to believe)  was true, we accepted what they had told us was really true and we had hurt them badly(they both died before their time and we know now, it was of broken hearts) it was the TRUTH as it’s allover the globe now…Instant communication is what did it.  No more questions.
  AND WE LEFT AS FAST AS WE COULD!

  GOD IS SO GREAT AND SO REAL THAT HE COULD NOT BE PUT IN A BOX LIKE THE RC HAD HIM IN.  NO WAY!  IT’S BEEN TEN YEARS AND the LORD OF OUR LIVES IS JESUS CHRIST, HIS FATHER AND THE HOLY sPOIRIT.  NOT SOME DEMANDING INSTITUTION THAT TAKES AWAY YOUR “FREE WILL”....GOD WILL NOT TAKE AWAY YOUR FREE WILL.HE WANTS WILLING FOLLOWERS OF HIS WORD.

Please pray and care about all the vunerable people in the Catholic World that are still being SEXUALLY abused. In Ireland, Belgium, Malta, Spain. Poland, Germany, Canada, Portugal, India,  Mexico ,Africa, Brazil,Honduras,Hatii,ETC.,  You name it and the RCC is there with pedophiles doing their thing and the hierarchy moving them all over the globe to keep it HIDDEN.  It’s not HIDDEN , we know and we wont’ have it anymore.  Amen and Amen! HE SAID,” IN THE LAST DAYS ALL THAT IS HIDDEN WILL BE REVEALED AND IT IS! GET ON YOUR KNEES AND LISTEN!

Jennifer, thank your for sharing your grace filled testimonial filled with the Light of the Holy Spirit. What a blessing we have to be living members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I believe that no one can depart from the Faith unless they do not know the Faith. The lack of knowledge gives way to lack of love, and the love then becomes too weak to endure the trials and tribulations. I consider my Faith to be the greatest treasure of my life, and I do everything I can to protect the Faith and defend the Faith, and pray that God grants me His grace to increase in Faith every day. Truly it is the treasured pearl, for which all is spent in hopes of possessing it- which is not really it- but Him, Jesus, the Christ. I pray every day for the victims of clergy sex abuse, and for the priests and those in leadership positions who will be held accountable by the Highest Court. I pray for total healing for every victim, and for oceans of mercy for all. One might say, “that is easy for you to say!” Well, I am one of 5 children, and three of us have suffered in a very personal manner, this abuse. Our Faith remains intact, because it is in God we trust, not wounded humanity. Our Faith is in God, Who can neither deceive, nor be deceived! Those who believe and trust in Him shall never be put to shame.

glorybe1929: she’s got five children if I’m not mistaken. Anyways… too many psychos troll this site so I won’t even bother. Thanks for the article, for all you said is true. I’m so glad you and your husband came Home :) The Chruch has always been attacked and always will be, there’s a saying in spanish that says that you only throw rocks to a tree with fruits.

Thanks for your sharing. I’m loving our RC. I believe with my faith in Lord, the Holy Spirit and not men. It is true, through scandals, my faith increased! The more I need to kneel down and pray for our Church, priests and peoples. To pray the Rosary and fast for our Church and priests.

Spot on Jennifer.

Keep up the good work.

The last two comments are quite a contrast, but what is missing in Jennifer’s article is that the
scandals are mortifying. There is an attempt in the article to take solace in the fact that our society itself is in tatters, but that’s no consolation, nor will it help move the Church to understand the seriousness
of what has happened. A mortifying shadow has been cast over the Church, its faithful and the sacraments.
A little mortification with respect to the issue is in due order and would do more for the Church than this tear and compare approach to defending the Church which rings of indifference to the subject of the article.

Very nicely put, a very compelling way of looking at it. It stands to reason that the evil one would place a bulls-eye directly over the heart of our vicars. We should not be surprised that these priests are imperfect, they are after-all men and are thus vulnerable (insert prayer here). This is in no way the first time the Church has been attacked and it likely won’t be the last. The part that I hope you detractors take note of is that in 2,000 years despite these attacks the message hasn’t changed. Our Mother Church is still here and still winning souls for Our Lord! Come and see what we got to offer, I guarantee it will be the best decision you ever made!!

So some good came out of all those kids getting raped, huh? Is that supposed to be the point of this drivel? The shamelessness people get up to in justifying their own beliefs never ceases to amaze.

Mike wrote:  “despite these attacks the message hasn’t changed. ”  What is “the message?”

Hey,

All you anti-Catholics.  What’s the “Pillar & Foundation of Truth?”  Look it up and rest assured it ain’t some protestant denomination.  LOOK IT UP! 

And also, how (and why) do protestants run from John 6?  More specifically, John 6:53-66?

Where did the Bible come from?  I’ll give you this answer, it came from the canonists…the Catholic Bishops.  They alone decided which books were to be included in the Bible.  Of course, through God’s guidance.  You’re reading our book, given to us by the
Almighty.

Finally, who founded your church?  Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church at Pentecost.  No other Christian faith has a divine founder.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can trace its roots or foundation all the way back to Peter when Jesus said, “You are a rock and upon this rock I will build my church.”  The church will never be perfect, because it is made up of human beings that are imperfect; Peter denied Jesus three times.  Christ picked Judas as one of the apostles.  I don’t think Jesus would give us such a gift and not give us the means to promote and maintain it.  Hence, the bible, prophets, sacraments, priests, sisters, etc.  Also, the gift of faith, is only given from God.  It’s not something you can achieve on your own.  When you are given this gift, God gives us the tools to strengthen that gift.  Then, add in your free will to inform yourself and to use the other gifts that belong to the church to sustain your beliefs of your faith.  The bottom line is your relationship to God and other people.  That I believe is what we will be judged on.  It’s true that crimes were committed within the church and they were not handled properly.  Many people suffered because of it.  I feel bad for those who were abused.  I would not want that to happen to my son or daughter.  I believe that this is a test; God allowed it to happen.  Now, it’s our decision how we are going to handle it.

“The Catholic Church is the only church that can trace its roots or foundation all the way back to Peter when Jesus said, “You are a rock and upon this rock I will build my church.””

... apart from the Eastern Orthodox church, which says exactly the same thing, and has had far fewer schisms.

“A little mortification with respect to the issue is in due order and would do more for the Church than this tear and compare approach to defending the Church”

Exactly.

Simple question: were you Catholics brought up to believe ‘some of the other kids are doing it?’ justified doing something?

“Christ is compelled to reveal and purge all this evil which must be disgusting and likewise repulsive to His Spirit.”

Pick one.

The child abuse scandal was either ‘allowed’ by God, or not.

Under the rather twisted theology Christianity enables, God might be trying to teach us some valuable life lesson about how even priests can be flawed. Well ... (a) an odd way to convince us ‘so go to Church’ and (b) could he not have just allowed some expenses scandal about them claiming a little too much for mileage or something, did he really have to ‘allow’ tens of thousands of kids to be abused in just the US?

This gets really close to the sort of disgusting ideas some evangelists push: ‘God did the Holocaust to let the Jews have Israel back afterwards’.

Here’s a question: what crime would be so awful it couldn’t possibly be part of the divine will?

Sarah, How sad is your post.  You have my sympathies if you or someone you loved was abused.  This article was about how even though people may be sinful, it was not the Church that did it but the fallen people (just like fallen people everywhere) who did these crimes.  The Church, created by Jesus to help us in our journey to him, survives because of Christ because we certainly could not do it.  I would ask you to read your post tomorrow and ask yourself if you really should have said that, and perhaps you should consider apologizing for your words, which were uncalled for.

Mike, Crow (ad-lib): Whoa! Okay! Whoa!
Tom (sobbing): Sorry! I have no sense of proportion! I’m a disgrace to my uniform!
Mike: That’s okay. Calm down. Mustn’t hate, mustn’t hate…
Crow: At least so overtly.
Mike: Exactly. Must disguise our hate, just a little. We’ll be right back. It’s okay…
Tom (sobbing): Pardonnez-moi, pardonnez-moi…

Do you people not actually read the article?  No where in this article does it condone, or approve, or promote the abuse of children or anyone else.  What she is saying is that IN SPITE OF all the horrors that went on, this is still Christ’s church and He holds it up.  So really you are insulting not only the Church, but Christ and those he loves.  In the end you are just promoting the usual anti-Catholic skreed, but this time you are doing it by horribly insulting a sincere person who is appreciative to have an organization created by Christ to help all of us come to Him when our lives end.  Would you actually say this to a person’s face?  Think about what you write first.

Sarah, no where is there “systematic child rape” in the Catholic Church.  There were individual fallen men who did awful, terrible things to children, while those in charge did little or did not know how to handle the situation.  I care about those children and their families but the Catholic Church was not “created by men,” it was created by Christ, which was the whole crux of the article.  I can see that you do not believe that, however your words are hateful and uncalled for.

Sarah,
You obviously need to find healing if this happened to you 40+ years ago, and you are still ranting like it happened yesterday, and totally mischaracterizing Jen’s words.  I do not deny that it must be excruciatingly painful, but please do not reject the only true source of grace and healing, Jesus Christ.

Look, Judas was one of the 12 Apostles and committed the worst crime ever, that of the murderous betrayal of the God-man, Jesus.  And yet, Jesus still continued His Church.  Jesus said that scandal would come, and yet, people still are shocked when someone in the Church does something grossly sinful.

Jen never denied that the abuse is a horrible crime, and if you weren’t reading the article through your unresolved pain, you’d see that.  I hope that you are as angry at public schools as the Catholic Church, since the abuse rate is even worse there.  I’ll pray for you to find peace.

Sarah, again you have my sympathies.  You are filled with anger and hatred and I will pray for you and your healing.

Thanks for a great personal recount on why you still felt “called to Rome.”

The plain truth is that it’s hard to be Catholic.  Far more difficult than joining a heretical Christian community (protestant).  The Church has the most difficult stance on sin, restrictive in a worldly sense, to make my point in a pop-culture driven world.

Just look as the sexual sins alone, the church has not and will never teach that contraception is acceptable.  It puts up a probable barrier between the transmission of life (nothing’s fool-proof), and it reduces the act, which is a re-commitment to marriage vows every time it’s shared between spouses, to just a physical act.  The spiritual component, the Christological component, is practically removed on a wholesale level if contraception, artificial, or by other means, is part of the equation.  The Church gets a huge rap in the World just for this alone.  Well, the Church teaches that sex is unitive and procreative, or at least the possibility of both should exist every single time a married couple joins in the act.  I don’t mean to derail the abuse of minors topic above, but this is the major sin amongst the people and clergy today.  If they don’t believe what I’ve mentioned above, as a faithful Catholic, member or clergy otherwise, then you are opening your life to a potential multitude of other sins, perhaps far more destructive, to the person, family, and Church community, even causing great scandal to friends, family, etc.

I, like others, believe that sins of the flesh are the main cause to this current “crisis” in the Church, and it is obviously not just a Church problem, but a societal problem, affecting other religious congregations, corporations, government, and even within families.  The Church is doing something about it.  It may appear to be kicking and screaming as it’s being sent to it’s “room” for a much deserved “grounding,” but at least the tendency is to correct the sins of the past, not just sweep in under the rug.  Unfortunately, some in the leadership will just have to be replaced by time-run attrition.  But the much-talked-about conservative bent of many new seminarians and newly ordained priests gives me much hope for the near-future Church.

Can we as Catholics just agree that it is our Bishops who have failed us by having such a poor candidate screening process for those admitted as seminarians.  Until now, no lay professionals had a role in conducting maturity and psychological background testing.  It’s a stark reality for all Catholics to face that not all priests have a “calling.”

“You obviously need to find healing if this happened to you 40+ years ago, and you are still ranting like it happened yesterday, and totally mischaracterizing Jen’s words.”

Should she have shut up about it after ten years? Twenty? At what point should the pain just sit down and ‘resolve itself’?

Occasionally, just for a second, I think some Catholics understand. And then Jennifer writes a muddleheaded ‘I have reached my conclusion, whatever fact you come up with will support that conclusion’ article about an Orwellian world where War is Peace, and Child Rape is God’s Holy Lesson ... and then you say something like that, that’s even more offensive than that.

Posted by SkiFree Champion on Wednesday, Aug 10, 2011 10:33 PM (EDT):So some good came out of all those kids getting raped, huh? Is that supposed to be the point of this drivel? The shamelessness people get up to in justifying their own beliefs never ceases to amaze.

Nowhere in her writings did Jen indicate that anything justified the horrors inflicted on children by priests in the Catholic Church. Talk about shamelessness - accusing someone of saying that raping kids is OK so long as the faith increases.

God bless you Jennifer…. welcome home!!!

@ Kris, in New England,  -this is what you don’t get.  Jennifer Fulwiler writes:  “but my research led me to see that that was common in all organizations, not just the Church.”  Trying to lay some foundation saying “look, the church is not so bad in comparison to Teachers and Football Coaches” is laughable if not downright dishonest.  Priests enjoy the highest standard possible—they represent God.  Teachers and Football Coaches do not.  When will Catholics finally say WE OWN THIS PROBLEM and stop fingerpointing at other people.  This is why there is so much outrage.  Ten years after the Cardinal Law fiasco we now learn the Bishop of Philadelphia has a new scandal on his hands with 27 more priests he already new about and did nothing.

“Nowhere in her writings did Jen indicate that anything justified the horrors inflicted on children by priests”

No, but when she says things like “even if the media had been right that the priesthood and episcopate were full of corrupt and immoral people” she makes it sound like journalists were making up stories. When that’s added to the argument “it’s exactly the same everywhere men work with boys”, it begins to look like a Catholic priest could set fire to her house and steal her stuff and she’d write how she’d always been too chilly and materialistic, so this was just grand.

The article starts by seriously underestimating the problem by saying 2% of priests were involved (this is still a lot of people, by the way - possibly a five figure number).

Here’s one unbiased, academic study that puts the number much higher:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm

And, crucial point, this is the number of priests who have been accused personally. It doesn’t include the people involved in the cover up. Does anyone argue that shielding a pedophile is also a serious crime?

Also it matters who falls into that 2%. The Cloyne Report shows that in Ireland it was *very* senior figures who were actively involved. It shows that very senior people at the Vatican were involved.

The first half of the article announces that the Catholic message was exactly what she wanted to hear, and then she ends with “corrupt and immoral people are always the first to sell out and preach whatever message the culture wants to hear in order to get more power for themselves”.

Look. I think raping kids is wrong. When I see tens of thousands of individuals in one organization abusing kids, and at least as many more shielding them, I don’t jump to the conclusion that these people are awesome and the media should leave them alone. I think we jail the guy in charge while this was happening, we don’t beatify him. I apologize for being an atheist with no innate moral sense and an unsophisticated theology, who finds the idea of hedging and excusing and safehousing pedophiles utterly repellent.

There is absolutely no reason to take my word on this. All I ask is that you find a copy of the Cloyne Report online and read it.

“Nowhere in her writings did Jen indicate that anything justified the horrors inflicted on children by priests in the Catholic Church.”

Well, that seemed like the moral of the story to me. She sounds just like Bill Donohue; only the faintest acknowledgment of the suffering or hurt inflicted. Whenever I hear or read Catholic pundits talk about the widespread child-rape and subsequent cover-ups within their church they talk about the victims like they’re just numbers. Numbers to be spun in whatever way necessary to further their agenda.

In the wake of Cardinal Law escaping to Rome in the dark of night before he could be arrested in Boston, the US Bishops hired former Oklahoma Gov. Frank Keating (R) to overview a commission to investigate and report how operational changes and improvements should be made in the American church.  Upon being stonewalled for a year by various diocesean Bishops, Keating (a devoted Catholic) quit and is quoted saying “dealing with the Catholic Bishops is like dealing with the Mafia.”

Where is the dog poop brownie story?

Lector at Mass ie; Troll.. Your venomous verbal attacks will not alter in any way, the love that we, as Catholics have for Jesus Christ, Holy Mother Church, The Holy Father and our Priests. You “reek” of anger and resentment. No one here is denying that sexual abuse took place, nor is anyone condoning it. Christ founded and guides his Holy Catholic Church.. as promised. We don’t always know the “why” but we do know the “who”.. when The Holy Trinity speaks… devout Catholics listen. This is the part where “faith” is required… that is all.. The END.

@Dee, what “venomous” verbal attacks?  I love Jesus as well.  God remains on the throne.  However, to be Catholic does not mean we forfeit our right to speak out.  You speak of “faith” being required.  I have faith.  However, men like Cardinal Law who knowingly supressed the truth for so long, well, we as Catholics are not required to have faith in men like him nor are we required to defend him.  Please do not resort to name calling whenever someone disagrees with you.

So much dichotomy about the sexual abuse scandal.  It’s either, “Yes it happened but it doesn’t change the fact that Church is guided by the Holy Spirit - the END” (as the commenter above puts it) or it’s “The Church is rotten to the core because it happened.”  Why not, “The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, and will continue to be guided by the Holy Spirit, AND will need to use this guidance to understand how to improve it’s handling of such matters right now.”  Men being guided by the Holy Spirit does not mean men always follow the Holy Spirit, and it does not mean the earthly institution itself is formatted perfectly.  I don’t see why we cannot acknowledge that, yes the numbers were pretty small; and yes, there appears to be some institutional cover-up; and it does not mean the Church needs to be torn asunder and started anew; AND it does not mean the Church couldn’t use some serious changes.  Why all the either/ors?  I think the dichotomous thinking contributed to a delay in taking right action, which has only exacerbated the situation.  It doesn’t mean the Church is evil.

I am new to the National Catholic Register site.  The vicious attacks by some Catholics upon other fellow Catholics amazes me.  “Dee” just called “Lector at Mass” a troll, causing me to read all of Lector’s comments.  He/she is obviously Roman Catholic. Lector is pointing out what all of us Catholics should already know.  If a person is capable of love, what Lector points out would be a concern to us too.  Jesus said to love our neighbors.  It is scary to think Catholics can attend Mass, maybe even daily, yet, they don’t give a hoot about the suffering of others, not even caring enough to want the church to become healthier.  A doctor does not coddle cancer into going away.  A doctor carefully detects and removes cancer, then protects his patient, so the cancer does not return.  What Lector pointed out is too many of our leaders coddle cancer in our church, and it caused the health of the patient - the collective church - to deteriorate.  When parties draw attention to what is happening, people (like Dee) do not like it, calling these prophetic warnings a ‘venomous verbal attack’.  With respect, Dee, you are wrong.  By continuing to defend a broken system, you are (albeit inadvertantly) condoning the abuse and the mishandling of the abuse by bishops.  Further, all that has been spoken of to date is the abuse of children, while we know that priests and bishops continue to act out sexually, with women and with men, and that is happening all over the world, right now. This needs to be confronted (like the cancer it is) and stopped.  Lector has it right.

Lector at Mass Cardinal Law was free to leave the US and there was no warrant for his arrest, and the US Government has made no effort to get him back, so maybe you should check your facts first before sitting down to your computer and spreading falsehoods
Jemina Cole, would you like to discuss the Millions of . Remember your Atheist pal Lenin Murdered Priests and congregation and turned their Churches into Museums Of Atheism . Were any of those Atheist murderers and Rapists jailed , no they were given medals and pensions, of course Jemina you are probably one of those Atheists who are faaling “mentally and Physically ill and suffering depression” because of the cross on ground zero . Of course raping kids is wrong, does that mean Catholic Kids raped and murdered by your Atheist pals in Soviet Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland, I suppose not

@Con O Sullivan,  I’m sure you will agree the more “honorable” thing for Cardinal Law to do would have been to stay in Boston and answer all the questions.  The urgency of his departure from the United States upon resigning is highly suspect.

All the promotions of bishops that are known to be unsympathetic towards the situation faced by survivors is also highly suspect.  It shows a systematic disregard for people, other than clergy, that are part of the clerical mindset.  That is not Christian behavior, in anyone’s book.

I find questionable the main argument of this post: that the scandals make your faith stronger. That’s a slap in the face to those that have hope for a Church that teaches by example. First of all, I and some of my friends have faith despite the cover ups and it is upsetting to see the Church acting like another corporation or secular institution. In the long term is counter productive to cover up an scandal to protect the faith of the faithful, at the end the Church looks really bad when the motivation to apologize is that the scandal has been made public by the media.

It is curious that you have to do research to realize that sexual abuses happen everywhere and that that fact should be enough to be satisfied with the abuses committed by the priests. I know the crimes were not condoned by the post, but I feel that its importance is put into question with bogus arguments. We need to put stricter control in place to reduce the number of cases to its proper number: ZERO. 

I agree that there are many anti-Catholics out there in the media and in society that rejoice in the scandals for the damage that it does to the credibility of the Church. And that this serves as a distraction as the pro-life pro-family stance of the Church is attacked ad hominem. But we should be aware that we should be really sorry, and somehow ashamed for the disrespect for the victims that a cover up implies, this is not time for Catholic pride. It is a bad sign to find an excuse in the fact that it happens everywhere when an adult has children in custody. Of course, nobody expects priests to be perfect, but they should be retired from their ministry if they are not capable of proper moral conduct.

In brief, I don’t think that the sin of the clergy is a reason to have faith or to get an increase in it. The source for the discernment about the truthfulness of the Church’s teachings is the positive experiences we get as a community and as individuals. Somehow the grace is more than the sin and as it is pointed out by the post there is some beauty in the teachings of the church that make the holiness of the Church ministers somehow unnecessary. But we should pray and demand for better Church leaders, people you can also admire personally. Fortunately there are a lot of them.

That said, I like Jennifer’s posts most of the time and I admire her for preaching by the example of having a marriage open to life.

Sorry, lector, for not responding sooner. I’m just checking back now. You say in your posts that you are a believer so I assume you know the message of Jesus Christ and the Church He setup on earth. But to answer your question, the message is one of love. Love for our one another as He has loved us. He loved us despite our wickedness and sinfulness and we are called to do the same. This is the root of the Catholic Church. That message has not and will not ever change. I can copy and paste the Nicene Creed as well as an adjunct but I don’t know if that is necessary. That is the message, always has been and always will be.
In response to everyone else, please read the article, she is not condoning or excusing the crimes committed on the innocent. To continue to accuse her of that is either intellectually dishonest and a blatant attack on her or simple misunderstanding of what she is saying. Though I would say it is more the former because I believe she has done a good job of explaining her position. God Bless you all!

The Catholic Church while guided by the Holy Spirit in it’s teaching and passing on the faith..is still managed by sinful human men..and these men who are our priests are hated by Satan more so than anyone else..why?Because they ahve consecrated hands which by the power of God can transubstantiate bread and wine into the True Flesh and Blood of Christ.The devil wants this to end for it is the life source of our souls..so he attacks them more.Many of these priests may not have had a calling at all..it is possible that many may have been goaded by family members into the priesthood whenthey realized they were gay thinking it would help them.Most of the fallen priests come from the era of the 60’s.Despite what the bias media tells you..these heinous acts were not perpetrated by pedophiles..rather they were committed by homosexuals..but the media knows that this would hurt the gay agenda.Despite the scandal we ,like Christ must move forward..not judge..but pray and atone.Keep your eyes on the cross and never lose faith..even to the death.We saw what happened to Peter as soon as he took his eyes off Jesus when walking toward Him on the water..he started to sink..praise God that this scandal has come to light for it is a cleansing…and stay focused on Jesus.Pray for those who are victims as well as those who fell..we are all in need of Gods Mercy.Any negativity is not of God but of Satan,any division as well is not of God..but of satan.We need to pray that God send forth His Holy Spirit to renew the face of the world,,for we are all slipping into darkness.

Well said! I have drawn these same conclusions & have written in our parish newsletter something to this effect.  God is in control even when humans act out in sinful ways.

@holyroodboy43

More Donohuisms. Spin, spin, spin, this time into an attack on homosexuals. I haven’t been to church since I was ten, do they give out talking points now? ‘Cause ya’ll do a bang-up job of staying on-message.

While any abuse is intolerable I keep wondering why the media doesn’t report on Jehoveh Witness and Mormon abuse? Again as many others have said, we are in a time of great upheavel and persecution and those within the Church should be praying and sacrifing for all priests and relgious who serve the Church.

“Jemina Cole, would you like to discuss the Millions of . Remember your Atheist pal Lenin Murdered Priests and congregation and turned their Churches into Museums Of Atheism .”

There have been atrocities committed by atheists over the years. The Tamil Tigers, the first to use suicide bombings as a regular tactics, were atheists.

I’m not a communist, let alone a Leninist. I don’t believe in God, that’s all. There were people who didn’t believe in whatever gods were around long before anyone started worshipping Yahweh, and there will be people who don’t believe in gods thousands of years from now when, like Hercules and Thor and all the other gods, Jesus is just a character from a story people tell kids. It’s the longest-held belief about religion, and its values are far more consistent than ‘eternal’ Catholic ones. There’s been very little movement on the fundamentals since before the ancient Greeks.

1. There’s no evidence there are gods that would qualify as evidence in any other context.
2. Claims made for the gods are a terrible explanation for what we actually observe in the world.
3. Many claims made for the gods are manifestly not historically or scientifically possible.
4. Many men who run religions have suspicious behavior and motives.
5. Either the gods serve higher values, or the gods are capricious. So follow the higher values, not gods.
6. It is impossible to say with certainty that a given thing doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t mean you assume it does.

Do you know why the Russian people attacked the Church, by the way? The answer to that one doesn’t justify the violence, or the destruction of the art, but it’s instructive. Do you know what the Catholic Church’s role was during the Paris Commune? Again, worth looking up if you don’t.

“of course Jemina you are probably one of those Atheists who are faaling “mentally and Physically ill and suffering depression” because of the cross on ground zero .”“

No. That’s very silly. I understand the principle involved in that lawsuit, and believe that church and state should be separate, (and there is a running battle being fought where Christians seek to impoise their symbolism and teaching on everyone), but it’s still frivolous.

But here’s the thing. You think (rightly) that I shouldn’t agree with some atheist who is suing because he thinks the government should not display a bit of metal. I do, wholeheartedly. What a maroon. But ... is that the best you can find? ‘Tens of thousands of Catholic priests, from the Vatican down, are involved in an ongoing cover up of a massive child abuse scandal that’s run for decades in every country in the world’ / ‘Well, one atheist from New York once got upset that a bit of metal is being described as a sign from God’.

“I keep wondering why the media doesn’t report on Jehoveh Witness and Mormon abuse?”

Um ... they are. Just go to any news website and type ‘Mormon’ and ‘abuse’. There are fewer examples because there are only five million Mormons in the US, 14M in the world.

No one denies abuse happens in other places. Is Catholic teaching really that if the other kids are doing it, it’s all right if you do it, too? Or is this some conspiracy theory that the child abuse scandal is all a media fuss about nothing?

We are to worship God, not people.  As soon as there is no sin among people those people will be in Heaven. We cannot judge God by those who sin against God.  When people come at me with the priestly scandels I ask back, “Where is abuse taught by the Catholic Church?  Do you have an authoritative document anywhere in any age in which the Church condones or encourages this priestly abuse?  Are you accusing the Church or of those who are disobedient to the Church?”  Katie

“Are you accusing the Church or of those who are disobedient to the Church?”

This really is a case where you have to pick one from two entirely opposing possibilities.

Either the abuse scandal is part of God’s plan, or it is against it.

Either might be true. Both can’t be.

Yes, people are flawed. I ate a cookie this morning, I shouldn’t be eating cookies. Your Pope, and his predecessor oversaw the systematic cover up of the largest pedophile ring in human history. All flaws are not created equal.

Read the Cloyne Report. You are saying that the *Pope* is ‘disobedient to the Church’. It’s nonsense. You’re saying that the Pope’s not a Catholic. And I guess bears come out of the woods and use Portajohns.

But, OK, let’s get you to state this starkly. Answer this hypothetical please:

‘If it was proved a Pope was involved in covering up child abuse, would that Pope be “disobedient to the Church?”’.

Different Popes have answered that differently. In the twelfth century, during schisms in the Church, when there were rival Popes, the doctrinal consensus was that Popes were *more* fallible than regular people, because they had more power to abuse, and they would be more of a target for the Devil. They could do more damage, so they had to be *more* careful and held *more* accountable.

So, scrutinize. Read the Cloyne Report. Use this as a resource:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Jennifer’s argument is incoherent, but seems to be ‘priests are flawed human beings ... vote priest’. Fine. But like politicians, teachers, factory owners, judges and policemen, that means we need to be *more* vigilant, not dismiss it as some media fuss, or something that everyone else is doing. The potential for damage is huge, there have to be safeguards, there has to be accountability.

And there’s an inevitable consequence of Jennifer’s logic: other things they say might also be flawed. The Cloyne Report shows that the Vatican and Irish Church are skilled, practiced, habitual, smooth liars. That they had explicit policies in place to encourage and justify lying. Does that not set the alarm bells ringing that this might not be the only thing they lie about?

As a Catholic, I thought following the clear embarrassment of the Boston Archdiocese, one would think every diocese would approach this issue with an urgency of full disclosure especially since in the case of many current Bishops these abuses did not even happen on their “watch.”  However, (and not surprisingly) the church has self inflicted wounds because as an institution they do not delegate and also have skilled media personnel to operate in a modern world.  Sadly, a few dioceses even placed protecting the good name of the church ahead of a true calling to serve Christ.  They forgot that when you serve Christ you ARE protecting the church.  The old style “blame the media bias, blame the Jews, blame the Protestants have all been tried and failed.  Even on this blog, the author draws her comparisons to teachers and coaches inferring “Look, we’re not so bad after all” which is a weak analogy.  The church has failed to learn how to handle damage control from errors and positives made by both top government and business leaders knowing “Whatever will eventually come out needs to come out sooner rather than later.”  The self inflicted error of this church has allowed the continual dripping of new scandals coming to light.  This continues to weaken the reputation and integrity of current church officials.  The structure is flawed because each Bishop has no accountability upward with each diocese essentially operating autonomous.  Governor Keating said pretty much the same.  Catholics could stop all this discord and finger-pointing if we as Catholics and the clergy just took responsibility, provide full disclosure and “own” our problems.  Let’s get our own house in order before worrying about the LDS, JW’s, Teachers, Scout Leaders and High School Coaches.  When our clergy present themselves as “persona Christi” there is no higher rung on the ladder.  You better live up to that title because you have set yourself up to be judged by a different standard, a totally higher standard than others groups Fulwiler is justifying her comparisons to.

J Cole,

You are a good writer and appear to be very intelligent.  But you also appear to be vastly oversimplifying(and mis-stating)Jennifer’s argument.  It may be that you misunderstand it. 

When we say the Pope is infallible, we do not mean he does not sin.  Some popes have committed adultery and murder.  You can find a good discussion of infallibility in the Catechism.

While we can argue about the relative amount of sinfulness in the Church, we can agree that there has been far more sin than there should have been.  I understand Jennifer to be saying that this is at least some evidence of the divine nature of the Church. 

The Church is the oldest organization in the world.  She purports to give us the Fullness of Truth, but has had members from top to bottom that have not reflected that message in the way that we should.  And yet in spite of that, the Church has existed and has given a consistent message through 2000 years, with many in every age trying to destroy it.  This is one of the reasons that we see the Church as divine.  It is also a reason why we have confidence that the Church is what Jesus spoke to Peter about when he said the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Lector at Mass, I am no sympathy for Cardinal Law, but the fact is he is not wanted by the Authorities of the USA, yes I agree but it seems according to the Law , he has done no wrong

To those who are critical of the Catholic Church, perhaps instead of complaining, you could suggest what, exactly, should be done to fix the problem. That would seem to me to be a more positive approach. Just so you know, disbanding the Church is not an option.

More pointedly, what should practicing Catholics do? Should we be more sympathetic to the victims of clergy abuse than we already are? If so, how?

Should we be more angry at those priests and bishops responsible for these egregious acts than we already are? If so, how?

Should we simply abandon the 95% of priests who have absolutely no connection with this horrible scandal?

Should we abandon religion altogether? Should we all just become atheists?

Please be specific.

Jemina Cole, and what do you think Lenin and Stalin were Chritians were they, they were Atheists who murdered millions of Catholics and other Christians, and I notice you are not too worried of the Catholic Children and women that were raped and murdered, all you seem to be worried about is the “destruction of the art”, but then Christian Children and Adulds because they were murdered by you fellow Atheists do not matter, do they Jemina, in fact you do not give a care about child abuse do you?
Well Jemina you tell us you are from New Your, In 2004 Dr Charol Shakeshaft from Hofstra University In Long Island presented a Report commisioned by the US Department Of Education, in which he wrote that a Child has 100 times mose chances of being saxually abused in the New York Public Education System than by a Catholic Priest. The term “Pass The Trash is used to call those child abuser who are transferried from one district to another Dr Shakeshaft estimated that 219,000 Children were molested between 1991 and 2001. Now this abuse is happening in your city and you choose to ignore it, I am afraid that I think that you do not care about Children that are sexuelly abused by otheres except Catholic Priests. while I conbemn any abuse of Children by anyone Priest or not

Jemina Cole, You made a statement that implied that Blessed John Paul 2 should have been Jailed, could you supply the evidence for that statement, especially when your fellow Atheists Stalin and Lenin were never jailed for the 20,000,000 they murdered., Now Jemina Cole have you read the full Cloyne report by Judge Yvonne Murphy, ” Your Pope and his predecessers oversaw of thebiggest paediphille ring in history in History” where is your evidence of that, I thought the biggest Paediphille ring and murder ring,were your fellow Atheists in the Soviet Union what is the figure again Lenin 10,000,000 murdered and Stalin 20,000,000 murdered millions of Children abused and women raped, and Charol Shakeshaft with the figure of 219,000 sexuelly abused children under your nose in New York .

In none of the posts that I have read has it been suggested that any of the priests that have been accused might actually be innocent.  I personally know 4 priests who were accused falsely of sexual misconduct and abuse. Three of them were outstanding, holy priests with amazing prayer lives.  Absolutely no chance of these priests being guilty and yet they were forced to retire from their diocesan positions.  Two were pastors, one was an assistant pastor.  The assistant pastor entered a monastery and we lost a wonderful priest.  There was no proof of misconduct - just a charge.  The bishop refused to pursue his defense and without any proof forced him out of his ministry.  One pastor’s case is ongoing, the other pastor retired in ill health and heartbroken by the accusation made against him.  Again, no proof - just accusations and “repressed memories.”  Yes, there have been horrible cases of chronic abuse by priests covered up by bishops - no one is denying that. And it is and always has been a complete mystery that God permits incredible evil to exist in the world.  Jennifer’s article never says that we should condone the evil that priest-abusers or their bishops committed if they participated in a cover-up.  But thank God for every John Geoghan that his poor victims and the Church endured we have fifty or so of holy, loving priests faithful to their ministries and the Church.

See the blog of a priest falsely accused and imprisoned at “Thesestonewalls.com”.  He was abandoned by his bishop and testimony that would have proved his accuser was lying was prevented from being given by the judge in his case.  The detective on the case was provided with information that would have exonerated this man, but he disregarded it and pursued this priest.  How many more priests have been falsely accused with their lives left in ruins, their reputations shattered, and left abandoned by friends, family, parishioners and worst of all, their shepherds?  Let’s face it, there’s a lot of money to be made by the accusers and even more by their lawyers - and there have been false accusations made.  Remember Joseph Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago?

Hillaire Belloc observed that any human institution run with such knavish imbecility [as the Catholic Church seems almost always to be] would not have lasted a fortnight. Ergo, the Church must be a divine institution. Mrs. Fulwiler’s article is her exposition of her evidence that Mr. Belloc was right.

Why, when someone is able to see that, must so many of you conclude that she must therefore be in favor of knavery or imbecility?

@Desdemona in Phoenix:  No question that false accusations have been made and even unwarranted settlements have been paid.  Even worse is that some totally innocent priests most likely have been accused.  Some of this is self-inflicted by the Bishops themselves for not providing full disclosure of diocesean records.  Rather than owning the problem, diocesean lawyers have fought to safeguard church records as secret which only exacerbated problems for “legitimate” victims.  Face it, simply being promoted to Bishop does not mean he also has excellent administrative and judgment skills.  In the business world, managers who have poor skills are typically replaced by those who do.  In the Catholic church structure that’s not going to happen.

Researching the prevalence of the false accusations made against good priests, I found the following statement at “TheMediaReport.com/Jan2011/special-steier-declaration.htm”: ‘In a stunning ten-page declaration recently submitted to the Los Angeles County Superior Court, veteran attorney Donald H. Steier stated that his investigations into claims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests have uncovered vast fraud and that his probes have revealed that many accusations are completely false.

Counselor Steier has played a role in over one hundred investigations involving Catholic clergy in Los Angeles. In his missive Mr. Steier relayed, “One retired F.B.I. agent who worked with me to investigate many claims in the Clergy Cases told me, in his opinion, about ONE-HALF of the claims made in the Clergy Cases were either entirely false or so greatly exaggerated that the truth would not have supported a prosecutable claim for childhood sexual abuse” (capital letters are his).’

Priests are accused with no credible evidence, but placed immediately on administrative leave.  Reputations can be ruined with one phone call to a bishop.  And with the new “zero-tolerance” policy, enormous pressure is placed on the bishops to appear proactive.  Father Gordon McRae who authors the blog I mentioned earlier “Thesestonewalls.com” tells of an 81 year-old Boston priest, Father Dominic Menna, who was accused of supposed abuse that had allegedly taken place in 1959.  He was told to pack up and leave his rectory, forbidden to administer the sacraments.  Father McRae states that of course there is no way to either corroborate or investigate the charge. So there is another good priest calumniated and sent packing by his bishop, in this case Cardinal Sean O’Malley.  How is this poor man supposed to support himself at the age of 81?  I can’t believe the diocese is taking care of him financially! The abuse charge was made in January of 2010.  This poor priest has lived with this cloud over a year.  He should be looking forward to a peaceful, prayerful retirement.  I’ll bet he’s praying, but he certainly can’t be at peace. What a shabby way to repay him for over 50 years of faithful service!

More recently in the Phoenix area, Father John Spaulding, pastor of St. Timothy’s in Mesa was accused of a supposed abuse of a minor which allegedly occurred more than 25 years ago. This is another devoted and spiritually-driven priest.  Father Spaulding has been to Medjugorie frequently; his prayerful reverence during his masses and devotions reminded me of Padre Pio. (I don’t expect an abuser to go on pilgrimages or be demonstrably spiritual, do you?)  I used to attend his weekly devotions to the Divine Mercy in Scottsdale which, if the accuser is to be believed, Father Spaulding was leading at the same time he was abusing this person.  This is nonsense - this priest no more abused anyone than I did.  This is probably another “repressed memory” routine.

Father MacRae pointed out that 8 years ago the prosecutors in Los Angeles said they were pursuing allegations that the bishop and diocesan officials had participated in a widespread cover-up of priest abuse.  It was recently announced that the prosecutors couldn’t find any evidence of a cover-up.  That wasn’t splashed across the front page of any newspapers I read.  But the charges of the cover-up made the network news, the front pages of newspapers and probably was reported internationally.

In the Catholic church structure, history shows us that middle managers (in a diocese) with poor skills were promoted to the office of bishop.  The result is like inbreeding of the clerical mindset, and the same thinking grows and flourishes.  As a result, the church in the US is $1 billion in the hole, due to payouts from negligence.  If only lay people had more input to how things are handled.  Nuns and politically left-leaning women, serving as “Keepers of the Gate” in seminaries, have also done the church a disservice, acting as almost a repellent for heterosexual men that may have had a calling to the priesthood.

“Jemina you tell us you are from New Your,”

I’m not from New York, I’ve never said I was, I think you might have me confused with someone else.

And, please, could you do us all the courtesy of re-reading your posts before clicking on Submit? The spelling and grammatical errors make it very difficult to work out what you’re trying to say in places.

It’s probably not going to end well for Catholics if we get into a pissing contest about the religious affiliation of World War Two leaders, by the way, so you might want to change that line of attack.

Your argument seems to be that the people currently running the Catholic Church are not responsible for how the Catholic Church is currently run, but that I’m somehow complicit in every murder Stalin’s regime committed because neither of us were Catholic. I don’t really find that logic persuasive, I’m afraid.

The plain fact that the Catholic Church has been around since the apostles makes it very clear that God has been protecting His Church. There’s no way it could have survived with all of it’s human frailty unless this was so.

@Desdemona:  You have thus made my point.  You have cited cases where priests have been accused, removed and forced into retirement with—-(your words)—- “absolutely no chance of being guilty.”  There are only two reasons for this:  (A) there really was *credible* suspicion or admission the accusations were true which you have no personal knowledge of,—-or—- (B) the local Bishop simply caved in the wake of all the turmoil.  Why didn’t these Bishops stand and defend these men against unproven accusations and keep them on staff pending credible evidence?  Such Bishops were either disloyal to their own priests or were so afraid for the diocese that they were willing to throw innocent priests under the bus.

“The plain fact that the Catholic Church has been around since the apostles makes it very clear that God has been protecting His Church.”

The slave trade existed from prehistoric times until the nineteenth century, with some of the slave routes (ie: through Egypt into the Middle East) being the same throughout that period. Was God protecting that institution, too?

The survival of the Catholic Church is impressive, but not unique. The Chinese Imperial State lasted twice as long as Catholicism. The Pharaohs did.

The Eastern Orthodox Church claims apostolic succession, so by definition it’s just as old. And it’s not had anything like the same schisms and geographical and doctrinal instability the Catholic Church has.

And it doesn’t answer the basic problem under discussion here: all levels of the current leadership were complicit in abusing children and/or covering up that abuse. Last I looked ‘I work for an institution that’s been around nearly two thousand years’ wasn’t something that cancels that out.

“To those who are critical of the Catholic Church, perhaps instead of complaining, you could suggest what, exactly, should be done to fix the problem.”

Priests shouldn’t get special treatment.

This is the problem with Jennifer’s argument. Yes, child abuse happens in other institutions. Find someone who has ever argued that it doesn’t. Yes, there are a subset of men (mainly) who abuse children. And, yes, most institutions have managers who have the instinct to close ranks and hush things up to preserve the institution.

No one argues otherwise.

The Catholic Church, though, because it is an international, religious organization, which courts and has great political influence at the local and national level, has been able to resist efforts to investigate it.

Read the Cloyne Report. That’s all you have to do. See how there was a conscious, targeted, successful effort to get Catholics in the police, judiciary and government to turn a blind eye, to drop cases, to have a quiet word. See how the Church uses the fact it can whisk priests away to get them out of the hands of law enforcement. How it can destroy, or simply not keep, the records that a secular institution would be forced to. 

The Church is able to offer a level of protection that other institutions can’t. And Desdemona bleating that oh, so many of these priests are so clearly innocent ... then let them have their day in court, like everyone else.

Here’s the solution: you treat the Catholic Church like you’d treat any other organization. That’s all. Treat the Pope as you’d treat the CEO of a company, not as someone above all scrutiny, immune from all human law. 

But if you want to know what the problem actually is, read this:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/14/world/europe/14church-report.html

That is a report about *one* diocese, compiled by the Irish government, not exactly a great enemy of the Vatican.

What a beautiful article.  If you don’t mind, I want to post this in my blog so everyone can read.  Just as you felt, my felt becomes stronger because of the scandals. No matter how hell wants to penetrate but as Jesus promised “hell cannot prevail” so be it, Amen.  Anti-Catholic “Christian” groups may be rejoicing with the scandals but what you said explains it all.  God bless. You even make me feel better Christian.

It’s this:

The loyalty people here show to their Church is commendable, their willingness to defend and see the best is a virtue.

But it has been exploited. Your virtue has been exploited by wicked men. Again, just read the Cloyne Report, see how Bishop Magee didn’t count it as lying if he used ‘mental reservation’, and ‘mentally reserved’ when he spoke to the police and other authorities. How two reports were prepared, one containing the truth, one a set of lies. How the Vatican was sent the truth, and knew the authorities had been sent a false report.

At that point, the virtue of wishing to defend your Church, I’m afraid, becomes willful blindness. You’re taught to turn the other cheek, not to turn a blind eye.

No one’s answered the question I asked, so I’ll ask it again: hypothetically, if there was a case a Pope abused children, or was directly involved in the cover up, should he face trial? Should he be jailed, if found guilty?

So many people demand a celestial perfection which Christ and His Church have never claimed for their members on earth (cf. the wheat and the tares, the narrow way etc). A perfection of which they themselves are absolutely incapable.
That’s the definition of hypocrisy.
Many members of the Church do not live up to their high calling. This is not hypocrisy, but simply reality. The Catholic Church has never denied there were bad popes and bishops, perhaps a good number of whom are in hell. A Catholic, if he perseveres, will end up humble and reliant on divine grace.
The world, the flesh and the devil have moved on to the business of normalizing pedophilia in the general culture. But no one cares, because it’s not Catholic priests. There’s no money in opposing it.
The cranks so obsessively attacking the Church are simply blind.

To all those clamoring for us to read the Cloyne Report, yes, it should be read. Once that’s done, read this: http://thethirstygargoyle.blogspot.com/2011/07/how-many-questions-on-cloyne-report.html

Thanks, Jen, for sharing your story.

Even when Jesus spoke about feeding the people with His Body and Blood, many could not handle this and left Him. And to this day, it still happens. For those who have left the Catholic Church, I do pray you will come back one day and discover Jesus in the Blessed Eucharist. When we partake of the very Body and Blood of Christ, we are given such amazing grace of being able to endure insults, betrayals, hypocrisy, unfaithfulness and all the other sins that have entered the church through some priests, religious and laity. We do not pretend that such injustices don’t exist but with the pain that such evil inflicts, we are given the power of God’s love to rise about it and through the tears, know that our relationship with Jesus is all that matters. Through the deepening of the relationship we are given the capacity to forgive, to move forward and above all to pray for those who have hurt us terribly. There is a lot of pain in many who have written here and I pray for each and every one of you. I ask forgiveness on behalf of those who are still to say sorry to you. May the evil you have endured, be turned into something good by the Master’s hand. God bless you my friends. Let us not continue to argue but find peace in our hearts to accept our differences and pray for one another. Let the love of Christ shine through us. There is enough of hatred in this world without Christians adding their lot. Shalom. Pace.

We are seeing the results of satan working through human beings.  The fact that he has concentrated so much of his efforts within the Catholic Church is proof positive for me that the Catholic Church is satan’s greatest enemy - the fullness of truth of Jesus Christ, found in the Catholic CHurch.

Jena Cole, Well now we know about your lack of interest in Child Abuse, I pointed about Dr Charol Shakeshaft investigation of public school child abuse you are silent, I also pointed the rape and murder by your fellow Atheists Stalin and Lenin, and pointed out to you that you were only interested"in the destruction of art”. and you use your local rag as a refference about the child abuse in Cloyne, now Jemine Stalin and Lenin were the leaders of the Soviet Union and they were not prosecuted for their murders, , Why were the leadrs of the KKK not prescuted for the murder of innocent black people, or the know Nothing s for their reign of terror, or those responsible in the US government for the slaughter of native Americans. Really Jemina Cole you are just as anti Catholic who could not care less about Child abuse.

J Cole,

Your hypothetical question about when a pope should go to jail is more of a legal/political one than a religious one, so there is no “Catholic” answer to it.  I would think the answer would be that he should be subject to the same laws in the same manner as other heads of state.

One thing that you may be missing here is that a committed Catholic is not going to be persuaded to leave the Church by any crimes, etc. members of the Church (including a pope) commit.  Of course, we are scandalized by many of the things that have occurred and (given our fallen state) will continue to occur.  I understand that is frustrating to those who believe the Church to be evil and would like the Church to be destroyed.  but it is completely consistent with the teachings of the Church.

“you use your local rag as a refference about the child abuse in Cloyne, now Jemine Stalin”

Sir, I’ll talk to you when you talk to me in one of the human languages.

“One thing that you may be missing here is that a committed Catholic is not going to be persuaded to leave the Church by any crimes, etc. members of the Church (including a pope) commit.”

I think that’s one of the most instructive quotes I’ve ever read.

You see this as individual, not institutional, don’t you? Again, please read the Cloyne Report. There are a lot of ‘bad apples’, and they talk to each other, and have official policies on when and how to lie.

I understand. You can have something good, based on sound ideas (the office of the US Presidency, say) but still have a wicked President. A corrupt judge doesn’t mean the idea of a judicial system is a bad one. But, surely, if you saw a persistent, chronic problem, a system that endlessly generated and protected wicked presidents or corrupt judges, you’d start to ask questions?

When Dawkins talks about ‘the God delusion’ it’s not that there might be gods. There might be. All we know is that no one’s ever seen one. The God Delusion is that if someone says ‘God says this’, that people turn off all critical faculties. The loyalty to God blinds them to all other considerations. And I’m afraid that your statement is an almost textbook example.

Jemine Cole, I think I made myself clear what I think of your hypocracy about Child Abuse, I will made myself very clear that I have abhor Chuld Abuse whether by a Catholic Priest, Teacher, Parent or any one else. I have pointed out to you the vast crimes of Child Abuse going on in the public schools of your own city, in the words of Dr Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra and the murder and rape of innocent Catholics by your fellow atheists Mr Stalin and Mr Lenin, and I think the murders committed by those two Atheists have reached about 30,000,000, Let me be straight , you are anti Catholic and you do not give a care about the crime of Child Abuse, only when it involves Catholic Priests. I presume the sight of the cross on Ground Zero is having an effect on you.

“of your own city”

Once again, third time I’ve now said this: I don’t live in New York, I have never said I do, I don’t know why you think I do.

I have my suspicions, based on the language and logic skills you demonstrate, that the idea I’m from New York is not the only muddled, strange, entirely wrong thing going on in your head. 

I’ll talk to you when you say something that doesn’t make you sound like a loony. Fair enough?

“So many people demand a celestial perfection”

Who said anything about perfection?

Look, the problem isn’t that the priesthood were acting just like us, burping and cussing and not doing enough exercise or whatever, it’s that around one in fifty priests were abusing children, and one in ten were actively blocking both internal and external investigations of that. Including very senior people, in all likelihood the most senior of all.

They weren’t ‘acting like average human beings’, they were committing some of the most terrible crimes human beings can commit.

The argument that boys will be boys, everyone abuses kids, you can’t expect otherwise, is ridiculous.

These were terrible crimes. Desdemona saying ‘oh, I bet so many of them were falsely accused’. Some will have been. But to suggest that every single one of the *over 40,000* accusations are malicious fabrications is deeply insulting to the victims. The way to sort it out is a transparent, independent investigation in which the facts are established. Read Cloyne. Instead, the Vatican established the facts in a report, kept that secret and sent a false report to the police.

So if you’re worried about malicious falsehood, start with the *known* examples.

Jemina Cole‘Well, one atheist from New York once got upset that a bit of metal is being described as a sign from God’. well I thought you were talking about yourself living in New York, but any excuse is good enough for you not answering the points I put to you, now if you cannot answer the points I put about Stalin, Lenin and the New York Public Schools I can only draw the conclusion that that you condone these evil practises, there nothing loony about what I said but then” all looks yellow to the jaunticed eye” . you have made astatement that evidence of abuse was covered by “the most senior of all”, now Jemina Cole could you produce evidence for slandering the Pope, it seems you have not read the Cloyne report, you said” the Vatican established the facts in a report, kept that secret and sent a false report , and the Vatican had no connection with sending any report to the Police, Magee and O Callaghan shoud have reported the matter of Child themselves to the Irish Police and they failed, of course you are reading the New York Times Version   of The Report, nopw you are calling for an Independent Investigation ,well the Cloyne was an Independent investigation , like Dr Shakeshank in New York,

J Cole,

Thank you for your note.  I will try to address your points:

1. I see any sin as an individual case, but also as part of a universal condition.  I do not see the Church (as you appear to) as an institution that is evil from top to bottom.  In fact, the priests I have known have been among the finest, most self-sacrificing men I have ever met. (That does not mean they are not sinners and not subject to the same temptations as the rest of us). 

2. Believing in an all-powerful God does not mean that one stops questioning things and stops thinking critically.  On the contrary, God gave us an ability to reason and wants us to use this ability.  One of the things that Jennifer has written about quite eloquently is her discovery that Church teachings are in line with reason. 

3. What you appear to be saying that if one believes what the Church teaches, one is automatically unreasonable and a victim of the “God delusion.”  Am I correct about this?  It would seem a remarkable arrogance to believe that Catholics through the ages who have believed this have all turned off their critical faculties.   

4. It is interesting that you say that we know no one has ever seen God.  Clearly, that is not something that is knowable.  In fact, if Jesus is God (as Christians contend), then we know that people have seen God.  It seems to me that, again, you assume away the problem.  If one believes in Jesus, he is unreasonable.  Is that a reasonable position? 

Ironically, the more the culture tried to paint the Catholic Church as full of sinful people, the more convinced I became of its truth. I didn’t believe that ordinary people could come up with a set of teachings that contained unparalleled wisdom; maintain them consistently across all times and places, even despite tremendous pressure to recant; and then keep it all going for two thousand years.

__

I recall that you called this incoherent.

“‘Well, one atheist from New York once got upset that a bit of metal is being described as a sign from God’. well I thought you were talking about yourself living in New York”

Yes. You took me talking about someone who was *not* me, with the *exact opposite opinion as me* as *me*. This suggests, I’m afraid, that any attempt to communicate with you will be entirely pointless. Learn to read, learn to write, then we’ll try this again, OK?

“1. I see any sin as an individual case, but also as part of a universal condition.  I do not see the Church (as you appear to) as an institution that is evil from top to bottom.”

No, I don’t think that. I think the analogy is with, say, a police force that has a problem with racism. There will be plenty - perhaps even a vast majority - who are non-racist, or actively against racism, or from a racial minority. But if the leadership allows a culture to develop or turns a blind eye, or covers up, the problem gets worse. The ‘few rotten apples’ thrive.

And the thing with child abuse. It is *so* beyond the pale. As I said, if this was an expenses scandal, that would be one thing. This isn’t a tiny amount of something not all that bad, it’s a huge amount of some of the most heinous wrongdoing.

“2. Believing in an all-powerful God does not mean that one stops questioning things and stops thinking critically.  On the contrary, God gave us an ability to reason and wants us to use this ability.”

Yes, but the mentality that whatever the priests do doesn’t affect the Church distorts that, switches off some of that questioning. I’ll go on to explain.

“3. What you appear to be saying that if one believes what the Church teaches, one is automatically unreasonable and a victim of the “God delusion.”  Am I correct about this?  It would seem a remarkable arrogance to believe that Catholics through the ages who have believed this have all turned off their critical faculties.”

No. This is a nuanced point, but it is an important one, and you’re right to bring it up. The issue is one of evidence. The evidence for God is of a unique type, yes? There’s no ‘evidence for God’, like there’s evidence for, say, Finland. The Eucharist does not involve a scientifically observable change in the state of the wafer. There’s a class of evidence with religious claims that just wouldn’t be acceptable in any other area of life. There’s stuff like the last Pope asking Stephen Hawking not to investigate the *very* beginning. Lines get drawn that wouldn’t.

One of the ways we assess a claim is to look at the person claiming. the founder of the Mormon church was a convicted conman before he founded the church. That, I think, means it’s reasonable to be cautious about his other claims. Agreed? So ... OK. Now look at the lies, conscious deceptions, evasions and policies the current Catholic hierarchy has employed during the abuse scandal. Isn’t it reasonable to treat *everything* they say at least a little more warily?

... no, you say, because it’s different when we’re talking about the eternal message of Jesus Christ. The Pope himself could commit any atrocity, it wouldn’t affect his ability (in special circumstances, blah blah) to speak infallibly. And that’s exactly the problem.

I think the belief that the message is God’s word has infected your natural, healthy understanding that priests are people, too. You think the best of them and a group of them have exploited that special status.

It’s not the only example. They lied, knowingly, about ‘holes in condoms that let AIDS through’. They’ve lied about finances.

“4. It is interesting that you say that we know no one has ever seen God.  Clearly, that is not something that is knowable.  In fact, if Jesus is God (as Christians contend), then we know that people have seen God.  It seems to me that, again, you assume away the problem.  If one believes in Jesus, he is unreasonable.  Is that a reasonable position?”

The reasonable position is to assess claims, and see if the God model works. That’s all. Does it have explanatory power? No, not really. There are better models.

“Ironically, the more the culture tried to paint the Catholic Church as full of sinful people, the more convinced I became of its truth. I didn’t believe that ordinary people could come up with a set of teachings that contained unparalleled wisdom; maintain them consistently across all times and places, even despite tremendous pressure to recant; and then keep it all going for two thousand years.”

First ... it’s not ‘unparalleled’. There’s not one original thing Jesus said or did. Gods died for sins, came down to earth as people, told us to do unto others, ascended to heaven, were born of virgins. One of the great arguments *against* Christianity is that it’s precisely parallel - Jesus wasn’t the first or last Jewish apocalyptic preacher at the time of Roman occupation. Half the iconography was pinched from other contemporary cults. The Mary stuff doesn’t show up for a century, at the earliest, and looks just like the Isis cult. The December 25th birthday is nicked from Mithras.

Again, you want it both ways. You want a Church/God that’s endearingly and oddly human. You want a Church that’s eternal and unchanging and infallible. It’s neither fish nor fowl, is it, though? It’s cobbled together and ever-changing, but asserts it isn’t. Not really the same thing.

OK. But if you want old, become a Confucian, or a Jew, or a Zoroastrian - all much older belief systems that have endured with far less of a shift in belief and practice. Become Eastern Orthodox, they also claim apostolic succession. Become an animist - some jungle tribes seem to believe in gods and spirits very like the ones the very earliest men did.

If you really want a belief system with a bit of heritage behind it, become an atheist. One of the earliest stone tablets that still exists complains that no one believes in the gods any more. We were around way before this monotheism fad got going.

‘Our religion’s old’ is a very silly argument. Slavery was old. We got rid of that. Capital punishment is old. Anti-semitism is old. The oldest profession is apparently prostitution. Does that make it a great career?

Jemina Cole I can read and I can write and I have made my points very plainly, you have not answered them, I wonder why

Just as Satan asked for and recieved permission to sift through the apostles like wheat..so goes the church in every age…she is over 2000 yrs old and still going..there is no scandal or attack that she has’nt overcome or fallen to..however many of it’s members have been shaken to the core and fallen away..just as the disciples who walked away from Jesus when He proclaimed His Body and Blood as food to eat.Satan and his minions are prevalent everywhere..including within the church…they no they can not defeat it..so they go after the members and get them to fall..their greatest victory..the reformation..sinful pride and disobediance at it’s utmost..a man deciding he knows whats better than God..Luther bought the same lie that Lucifer sold to Adam and Eve.I will remain a Catholic even if I were the last one left on earth.Even Jesus had a betrayer in His group..the bible gives us examples so that we will see that if things happened even amongst the first followers of Christ..then they will happen throughout the ages.It is simply the battle between good and evil.Rather than attacking each other here over petty things..why not simply follow your faith..whatever it may be to the best of your abilities..join forces and pray..for we all have one common enemy who is laughing at the division he has caused…satan…lets stop arguing and bickering and join in prayer together.If there anything to learn..it’s that mo matter how bad things get..or corrupt..remain faithful and obediant and trust in God to resolve the matter..we surely can not.

“Jemina Cole I can read and I can write”

Sir, your case would be far more persuasive if you’d registered that my name is ‘Jemima’, not ‘Jemina’.

I tresearched this subject matter as well while taking psychology courses. The results: Priests at under 2% and every other occupation in the helping professions 10-12%. That doesn’t make the priest situattion right, but it certainly put it in a different perspective. The New York teaching abuse scandals were keep vieled in part by the union power of the employees. The Catholic Church is one of the most outspoken organizations against the desires of self indulgent social constructs. Therefore, it becomes the major target.

Another commentator assaulted the writter concerning the power source of the RCC. He claims to be a reverend; yet he fails to use scripture as a whole to recognise the passing on of power and hierachical structure. David was given the keys in the OT. Jesus passed the keys to Peter in the new. Jesus then turned to the other apostles giving them their commission also. This was only one indication of structure and levels of leadership. Scripture proves scripture. The above reverend might be one those who pulls a single passage or phrase such as “...call no man father…” while failing to notice the context Jesus used it in. Using numerous other bible passages we see that Paul and others call themselves fathers in a spiritual sense. Then there is the 4th commandment to consider. Another passage frequently invoked erroniously is in the Apocalypse used to “prove” “Bible alone”. When John wrote the verse abvout 90 AD, the cannon of scripture didn’t exist—not as a book. Paul also commented in a letter: to keep to what I told you when I was with you and to what I have written to you. This shows oral tradition and written tradition. It was centuries before individual communities had a complete collection of writings. For centuries the teachings of Jesus and the apostles were passed on orally as well as in writing.

When any use commentaries by past and present ministers, they break with “bible only” profession. Manna was sent from heaven daily, so to Jesus is presented daily in the Eucharist which He institutionalised, Paul commented on the real presence in 1 cor 11 if memory serves me as being the real presence of Christ, unworthy reception causes sickness…Daily we can recieve this living bread from heaven through the annointed priesthood of Christ. Their was a structure of priestly power and position in the OT. Jesus established that in the NT. At the same time He promised inerrency to the Church from Father to Himself to Peter as head apostle to the other apostles. The laity excersise a common priesthood as a lower order with less responsibility than ordained priests and deacons. Christ’s teachings and the book of acts and the epistles bear this out when read and studied as a whole body of knowledge. Ask the Holy Spirit for gyuidence every time before and after reading scripture and see how the Catholic Catechism proves its teachings of faith filled living.

I firmly reject the “only.” Child abuse is gravely sinful. We cannot tolerate a little bit. Put the ban on sin. We can bracket the sins of men with the message of God, and this is praiseworthy. We can also bracket the sins of men with the men themselves, and we must do this as well. We cannot bracket the sins of men from the sins of men.

It did encourage me and strengthened my faith. Yes ! not all the priests ,clergy and bishops are bad. There are good among those as each induvidual have good and bad natures.

              May Lord Jesus strengthen you always . Assure my prayers for you.

                God Bless. mena

Jemima Cole:
Sin is first individual, then structural.
It affects our families, schools and communities at least as much as the Church. Salvation from sin is not cheap grace, and we all have to deal with a similar load of concupiscence.
It is simply wrong to assume that a believing Catholic is more prone to sin or cover up than a Marxist or a positivist. History - heck, even the biased media - show that there’s more than enough of this to go around.
The apologetic for the Catholic faith has never claimed that the average Catholic is a saint, or that baptized and ordained Catholics can’t be monsters, or that our structures are immune from the dysfunctions of any organization. The claims of infallibility and indefectibility are actually a lot humbler than the arrogant claims of scientism and Marxism.

“It is simply wrong to assume that a believing Catholic is more prone to sin [snip] The apologetic for the Catholic faith has never claimed that the average Catholic is a saint”

... and I’ve not said anything like this, either.

I’m making a very simple point, and I don’t know precisely why it’s giving so many people here trouble.

1. Child abuse is not just wrong, it’s very wrong.
2. You shouldn’t excuse it, or enable it, you try to stop it, and the methods for doing that are simple enough: zero tolerance and total transparency.

Running a vast international pedophile ring is not ‘the dysfunction of any organization’. No, it’s not unique. But it is heinous. And I don’t understand the ‘it also happens in public schools’ line. Yes it does. So what? Some people deal drugs on street corners. Should priests start dealing drugs in churches? Of course not, that’s playground morality - two wrongs make a right, the other kids are doing it.

And, however you cut it, the ‘structural sin’, as you put it, is a huge problem. The crimes were terrible, but it’s the cover up that’s the real problem. From the Pope (successive Popes) down through the entire hierarchy, instead of transparency, sympathy for the victim and co-operation with the police, there was denial, destruction of records, protection of priests, a conscious policy to lie and impede investigations. It continues.

And the propaganda. The way in which people here have fallen for the party line is terrifying. It’s ‘only 2% of priests’ (it’s not, and even if it was that’s thousands of people). It’s ‘all a media storm’ (so every victim that’s come forward is a liar?). Every account of the abuse scandal has a huge anti-Catholic bias (the Irish government is anti-Catholic, now?). No one ever writes stories about child abuse in schools or with other religions (they do, though). Everyone’s a sinner (even if you think that, come on, we’re not all pedophiles).

“The fact that priests are so appalling means the Church must have had external help from God to survive this long” ... *that’s* your argument?! The ‘external help’ the priesthood is getting is obvious - it’s you lot. Submissively accepting, and helping to fund, the priesthood that does these terrible things. Defending them. Putting aside reason. Lining up your kids to send them to those institutions. Seeing what happens as God testing your faith, not men raping children. *That’s* how they’ve got away with it, no God was needed. If you went to McDonalds and they shortchanged you by one dollar a couple of times, you’d never go back to that McDonalds. But Catholic priests in the US have abused 40,000 children. And that’s water off a duck’s back. That’s just media bias and exaggerations and it’s no big deal.

Underlying it all is the line a lot of people here have trotted out. ‘Jesus put them in charge, so ...’. And that’s the point I was making earlier. It’s the trump card, if you’re a believer. It means that whatever Bishop Magee or Archbishop Dolan did ... it’s somehow God’s will, and questioning it means you’re against God. The priesthood have exploited you. I’m sorry you don’t see it.

“But Catholic priests in the US have abused 40,000 children.”
But more than 40,000 children have been abused by their own parents and step-parents and then covered it up. So do we outsource the raising of all children to Jemima Cole? Do we stop marrying and making families? Or do we just give up on life?
Isn’t that what this is all about?
The Catholic doesn’t believe because he’s constructed a syllogism, or because it “works”, or because there’s no argument against believing. We’ve lived under atheist hegemony for a century now, so we know the arguments for not believing. You’re angry, and you think we’re not. You think your anger will save you. We’ve got it. We don’t expect you to understand or approve.

“We’ve lived under atheist hegemony for a century now”

Oh ... I see the problem. You’re from a *parallel universe*. That actually makes more sense than that you’ve looked at this planet and reached the conclusions you have rationally.

An ‘atheist hegemony’? The US? On *this* planet, there are no atheist Senators, polls say that a man who’d had a sex change would have more chance of being elected President than an atheist, six out of nine Supreme Court justices are Catholics and local school boards and councils are infested with creationists and abstinence-only types.

Or perhaps you mean Ireland, where the Cloyne Report was compiled. Atheist hegemony? Hmmm ... ‘interesting’ idea. I guess the idea that present-day America or Ireland are atheist totalitarian dictatorships barely scrapes the top ten crazy things you believe. Enjoy eating your magic Jesus biscuit today.

Catholic like Hitler and Lenin, you mean?

Jemime Cole according to Dr Shakeshaft 219,000 people children have been abused in the New York Public School system between 1991 and 2001, and your fellow Atheists Stalin and Lenin murdered between them 30,000,000 people, now again I ask you were is your evidence that the Pope was involved? you will not answer will you. Basicalla Jemima Cole you are an anti Catholic bigot and I do not know what you are doing on a Catholic newspaper, would you not be better to read the New York Times, ot The Daily Beast. as for your concern about Child Abuse you do not give a dam.

Interesting arguments and thoughts flowing here. My own take is ‘Let the first without sin be the first to cast stones’ It is very easy to pass commentary and judgement when our lives and heart are still hidden. Lets hide a camera in everyone’s house and see the saints that are waiting to be discovered (pedophiles or not)....and really,for that JP 2 hater’s snide remark…all i’ll say is ‘Do not be afraid’

Thanks for this beautiful piece. Thank you for allowing God use you to bless people like me.
Indeed the Church is filled with ‘humans’ whi will SIN, and that is why we need a SAVIOUR in CHRIST. The world too is filled with ‘humans’ who sin daily but for some reason it’s easier for people to excuse their own stupidity and point accusing fingers at other peoples faults.
The Church was humble enough to admit her faults and appologize; that is more than enough for me.

“Catholic like Hitler and Lenin, you mean?”

No. Out of those two, only Hitler was Catholic.

“that JP 2 hater’s snide remark”

If that’s a reference to me, I’m not a ‘JP2 hater’. Has it got to the stage where you don’t think he had anything to do with running the Catholic Church during his thirty years as Pope?

It was on his watch the scandal broke, and the Vatican adopted a deliberate policy of obstructing the secular authorities. He was in charge of a Vatican that handled things very badly, when they could have handled it well.

“Stalin and Lenin murdered between them 30,000,000 people, now again I ask you were is your evidence that the Pope was involved?”

No, obviously the current Pope wasn’t involved with that, I think we’re all well aware what he was doing during the War.

He was implicated in the cover up of the child abuse scandal in the Cloyne Report, though. Even now, his church is sheltering Bishop Magee from the Irish authorities. The Irish government have told the Pope he’s not welcome there until the issue’s resolved.

Again ... this idea the Pope’s some bystander is bizarre to me. People here seem to think that the man in charge of the running of the Catholic Church, head of state of Vatican City has no involvement in running the Catholic Church or Vatican affairs.

I doubt - obviously, as Contemporary says, none of us know for sure - that Herr Ratzinger ever abused children himself. It has turned out that individuals who were thought to be merely involved in the cover up were themselves abusers (Magee being one of them). But even if we assume he didn’t, which I think is only fair, he was a senior figure with special responsibility for the issue under the last Pope, and obviously he’s in charge now. I’m not sure which you’d prefer - that he’s in command of his duties, or too dopey to fulfill them.

Jemima Cole, First Hitler gave up the Catholic Church before 1920, he murdered 3,000 Catholic Clargy and 3,000,000 Catholic Lay people, Some Catholic Hitler was. You say the Pope   was implicted in the cover up in Cloyne, neither the Cloyne Report or any other Report says that, it is completely untrue, the Catholic Church is not sheltering Magee, Magee is in the Usa for what we know, again supply the evidence. The Irish Government did not tell the Pope he is not welcome in Ireland you are wrong again, again supply the evidence. As I said you are an Anti Catholic, you are silent about the murder and rape by your fellow Atheists Stalin and Lenin, as I said about 30,000,000, and of course Dr Shakeshaft’s report on the NY public schools

“your fellow Atheists Stalin and Lenin”

I’m going to assume you’re not a Phillies fan. Do you know who else didn’t believe in the Phillies? Stalin and Lenin.

And your silence over the thirty million people killed by your fellow non-Phillies fan allies and colleagues sickens me.

THAT’S how stupid your argument is. Now, get the nurse to give you your pills and shut up you moron, there are grown ups talking.

“Indeed the Church is filled with ‘humans’ whi will SIN, and that is why we need a SAVIOUR in CHRIST.”

Hmmmm ... I guess it makes sense that if Christ died for our sins, you might as well make your sins big ones. Seems like a waste otherwise.

Look, human beings are flawed. No argument from anyone on that one. In the post above, I was needlessly mean to a very silly person, for example. I apologize for that.

But only someone in complete denial of how many people have been accused, and of what they’ve been accused of, can put the child abuse scandal into the category of ‘normal human behavior’. Jennifer’s in denial about the scale of the problem, choosing the absolute narrowest definition, then declaring it’s ‘only’ 2% of priests who are guilty. Tens of thousands, then.

This is not a handful of individuals, acting independently. It’s a huge number of people, working together. With another group knowing what they did and helping them to cover it up. At the highest levels.

It’s not a few naughty, junior priests in the middle of nowhere. It’s very senior men. Archbishops. Vatican officials. Just look at Magee’s resume and actions. He molested, he helped hide molesters, he is now being sheltered in turn. It’s not over, and the Church’s apologies mean nothing if they’re still whisking accused men to safety.

The abuse scandal is vast, and so far beyond the pale it’s difficult to think about. But to dismiss it, as people here do, or to decide that it’s all just the way things are ... that’s a ‘sin’ in and of itself.

Whether the total clergy involvement was (and currently is) .05% or 10% we cannot deny there was (and is) abuse.  Further comments and comparisons to Stalin, Hitler or teachers and sports coaches ring hallow.  There is no position which is held to a higher standard than Catholic leaders claiming to be “persona Christi.”  Clergy sexual abuse is a sin which cannot be “undone.”  The larger issue is what can and is being done to prevent priestly abuse going forward?  Someone earlier mentioned having laity professionals involved in the screening process for new seminarians.  This would be a start.  How about monitoring seminarians who send and download child porn while in the seminary?  This is a Federal Law punishable by prison term.  Catholics know the culture within the world of Bishops is not likely to allow the laity to implement any reforms.  Therein lies the problem.  Bishops by nature are fond of “control.”  Obtaining a mindset change among Bishops is akin to having an aircraft carrier pivot and turn on a dime.

“Whether the total clergy involvement was (and currently is) .05% or 10% we cannot deny there was (and is) abuse.”

Indeed. And doesn’t the fact that we don’t know, that the Church continues to keep much of the information secret, telling in and of itself?

Cloyne makes it clear that the Vatican receives full reports, but that other, disingenuous or outright false reports are sent to the police. *They* know the true scale, *they* get full reports on every incident, and if the truth was that the abuse scandal was miniscule compared with public perception ... well, wouldn’t they have released that information? Instead, the scale of it has had to be pieced together by journalists and victims’ groups.

If you think it’s all a fuss about nothing, or something the media exaggerates, or Satan spreading lies, or tomfoolery, or a little bit of hair and tummy rubbing, or just people being flawed human beings, spend a few minutes looking around:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

That’s just the US. There’s a similar scandal in every country there’s a Catholic church. It’s not some weird coincidence or isolated thing, it’s systematic, endemic, institutional and the idea that this or the last Pope have not been involved, and couldn’t have known, is cloud cuckoo land nonsense.

We’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg, and some of that is because the cover up continues. It’s the only conclusion a reasonable person can reach.

I see I hit a nerve by stating the facts about Atheism, well the truth is bitter for you and the insults you flung at me says something of the kind of person you are. My advice for you is to take out your"heroes Of Atheism ” colouring book and fill it in , make sure you have plenty red colours to signify the blood your heroes spilled of innocent Catholics, now you say there is a scsndel in every country that has a Catholic Church, maybe you could provide evidence of that and name each country, as usual you cannot

Con O Sullivan, with all due respect I don’t see that you are helping the Catholic Church by 1)trying to minimize the impact of sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy and hidden/covered up by members of the hierarchy by focusing on numbers (“oh, it was only this many, not that many” - even 2% is disgusting); and 2)claiming that because it happens in other organizations, eras, and societies that somehow that mitigates sexual abuse within the RCC.
I practice my Catholicism regularly in many ways and will not stop or slow down because of the scandals.  I will also not bury my head in the sand and use arguments about infallibility or the overzealousness of the media to brush away the reality of abuse within the Church.  It’s disgusting, it reaches very high, and if we collectively took a look at how it happened there would be more people clamoring for a re-thinking about how much power Bishops have and how they wield it.  Even as I go to Church Sundays, some weekdays, and spend time several hours per week at adoration and saying rosaries and other prayers (yes, I do feel the need to give my “Catholic” credentials, unfortunately, for I fear it will be easy to lump me in with Anti-Catholics for my stance on this issue), I pray for an answer to how the structure of the Church can become more consistent with total transparency, at least on this issue.
Another person asked what everyday Catholics might do differently.  Here is what I might suggest: be very clear with priests in your parish or priests with whom you are friends in personal conversation that you are thankful for them and their sacrifices, but that transparency is needed and wanted.  Write a letter to the Bishop providing your personal feelings, including sadness and anger without being overly aggressive or including vitriol, about the abuse.  Be clear with other Catholics and clergy that you do not support things like the sheltering of Cardinal Law or other Bishops and clergy involved by whisking them to the Vatican.  Advocate that the RCC not shelter any priest or Bishop from being treated differently than any other citizen.  The church-going public may not have much power; what little we do have we need to be clear about.  I’m not advocating to go shouting from the tree tops about the need to tear down the structure of the Church; I’m talking about being clear with fellow Catholics in personal settings that most closely affect you and your family about urging priests, Bishops and anyone in the Church with power that transparency is the best, perhaps only authentic way, forward.  Trashing atheists for creating the scandal, blaming the media for digging deeper, and claiming that falsely accused priests are the “real” victims (to be sure, there are some who are - but is that really worse than a sexually abused child?) are all ways of dodging the real issues that Catholics - all of us - have to face.  There’s no need for dodging.  We CAN stand fast in our faith AND deal with the issue.  It’s not either/or.  So let’s stop blaming other people and start talking more about how our rock-solid faith will help us discern the correct response to an issue that is shameful for our organization, regardless of whether it is 2% or 5% or 10%.

Richard, I have stated during if you followed the thread that I abhor Child Abuse in the Catholic Church or in any other place, or by Catholics or Atheists or any other type of people. What I will not put up with is being lectured by an Anti Catholic Atheist bigot who sprouts out her unproved allegations. There are people within the Vatican who are totally corrupt and who care little about the Gospel as taught and practised by Jesus Christ, but as far as I know the Vatican is sheltering no fugitive from justice, Magee from what I know is in the US , and the US Government have no interest in Cardinal Law. Thankfully my Pastor in my local Irish Catholic Church in Ireland is a very good man and would have made a worthy Bishop of Cloyne but the people of Cloyne were saddled with a totally unsuitable leader in Magee, and I am afraid that has happened in many places. The problem is that the laity are not listened and we have no input into who runs our Dioceses. I totally agree with what you have written and as a father of children I take a great interest in this subject and see that my children are protested from these monsters whether Clergy or not. Any Priest or religious who is convicted of Paediphillia in a court should be banished from the Church I thenk I make myself very clear to you . Now about trashing Atheists, I believe in telling the truth and I care little for some of the vicious assertions being spread by a nasty manded troll on this troll, and yes why should not stand up for the truth and why should not I point out the evils committed by Stalin and Lenin and the awfull murders of innocent Catholics and fellow Christians, am I supposed to puit my head down and listen to innocent men being slandered by a liar, no Richard I will not do that, these Catholic Children slaughtered by Atheists are entitled to be remembered as well as the little ones abused by Catholic Clergy . I think Richard I have made myself my views very clear to you

I’m also still waiting for my ex-pastor in evangelical church to apologize for the abuse and for his congregation to recognize his failures, as I was 9 years old, 30 plus yrs later, he is still ministering and those followers that knew and said “I don’t believe you, he’s such a nice servant of god” still well, follow him.

Con O Sullivan, if you really didn’t care you wouldn’t be engaging her/him (pretty sure Jemima is a her, but not sure).  There is also a pretty seriously angry tone to your responses.  You are making yourself clear - I’m just suggesting your focusing on the wrong things.  No anger, that’s just my opinion.  You may take it or leave it and we’ll just have to agree to disagree about the best way to speak about and handle the RCC’s sexual abuse scandal.  Because that’s what this is about.  Not Stalin’s or Lenin’s or Hitler’s or New York’s.  I am interested in those, but I am not connected to any of those things directly.  I am directly connected to the RCC, so the sexual abuse that happens within this organization is of more cocnern to me.  Atheists can say whatever they want.  I’m mostly concerned about dealing with it fully, openly, and transparently, which, regardless of your opinion of the RCC, has not been done in too many cases and appears to still be happening in places like Philadelphia and possibly Ireland (I haven’t read the full Cloyne report, nor the website that another commenter posted).  That’s not slanderous.  It’s pretty well documented with at least enough circumstantial evidence to be conclusive that, at the very least, Bishops were involved in some serious cover-up.  They’ve even acknowledged it, saying things like “We didn’t know about proper treatment for pedophiles back then” as justification for moving priests from parish to parish despite being serial pedophiles.  And while the American legal system may not be looking for Cardinal Law, I would like to hear arguments for the “coincidence” that just happened to literally whisk him away from his diocese in the middle of one of the most serious modern day scandals of the RCC.  Was he that desperately needed for his new job?  I relent on one point: he is not being sheltered from American authorities.  But it was certainly a nice public relations move at the time.
The sad part of this interaction is that we are on the same team despite having very different perceptions of this situation.  I am more concerned about the situation itself and righting it and less about what Jemima or any other atheist says about it.  They’re going to think what they want anyway.  But practicioners have to be able to have faith in the hierarchy, and I admit this scandal has limited my ability to do that.  As I said, I will continue my practice and it will grow.  I will trust my Bishops less than before until they start approaching this with clarity and transparency, and only a few of them seem to be doing that.

I am a cradle Catholic and I must admit and have witnessing what this article confirms that often converted Catholics are so devoted, likely to appreciate and willing to obey the Catholic Church’s teaching much more than the cradle Catholics.  God bless you and your family Ms Jennifer Fulwiler and we are so glad to have you helping us defending our one true faith.

Richard, Weare singing from the same hymn sheet, The Diocese OF Cloyne borders my Dioocese of Cork, and I know many people in that Diocese. The Catholic Church in Ireland had proceedures put in place to deal with Child Abuse which were very strict. Monsignor Denis O Callaghan was in Charge of putting these Proceedures in place. and failed to do so and Bishop Magee failed to supervise O Callaghan,also Magee kissed a youth on the forehead, . The problem which I pointed out to you is that there are unsuitable Bishops like Magee saddled on People by Rome. without any consultation with the Faithfull, as for Cardinal Law and Magee the have both been left leave Ireland and the US. Of course those who abuse and cover up abuse must be rooted out of the Catholis and face the rigors of the Law, but we must also support the vast majoroty of fine Catholic Priests who do great work each day, we owe them that, again Richard I make no apology for treating the Atheist Catholic Hater as I do,

@Con O Sullivan: You are correct that our Bishops are foisted upon the people by Rome.  Quite often the Pope knows very little to nothing about a recommendation of someone to be appointed Bishop.  His credentials may be no more than “nice guy, and a priest of 30 years.”  His management, wisdom and judgment skills never enter into the equation.  Some of our Bishops are extremely lacking in leadership.  Duh ??  The system of appointments is flawed and broken.  For some reason, the church is highly resistant to replacing ineffective Bishops even in dioceses where repetitional abuse has occurred.  Why?  We can only conclude that if a Bishop is replaced it reflects poorly upon the management originating in the Vatican.  (Yes, it’s the “system” that keeps coming back to bite them in the butt).  If Catholics were to see Bishops removed quickly and replaced in these dioceses, that would sure indicate the church is making changes for the better.  Non Catholics would be more convinced as well.

Richard When I thing some of the Cardinals like Bertone in Rome and the likes of Magee and Law I am reminded of the words of Alexander Solzhenitsyn speaking about another matter but true of some of the Prelates in Rome and some of the hopeless Bishops, he says"Men Haveforgotten God , that is why this has happened ”  I wonder do these people think about Jesus and his words, do they realise the suffering they have done to innocent children by covering this wicked abuse, I believe they should be removed from the Church, Richard the Church belongs to all of us, not the clergy,  alone and I am afraid it is time to take our Church back. I am tired of going to Mass and hearing apoligies being read out by an innocent Priest to an innocent people all because some twisted Bishop did not bother to listen to the Gospel and act upon it. The English writer Hillaire Belloc wrote some 60 years ago that the Church must be led by Christ considering the leaders it had it would have perished long ago. While I find Benedict honourable and in no way involved with these crimesa, I think that our next Pontif will have to drive out the filth from the Vatican and begin to make our Church clean again, I have never gone to Rome and will never go there, when I want to be spiritually refreshed I go to Krakow,to me the real home of Catholisism.

I choose to follow the scientific method in my approach to understanding the world. Its given us such great things such as this computer that I am writing on. I guess I’ve just always been a practical person so I can see the pratical value of science and have never been presented with a practical reason for religion, especially catholicism, unless I would like a dose of anti-simitism.

Other than that, I would like to know any practical reason for a religion? Science has so far given us so much, and I hear there might be a cure for cancer around the corner! Lets just drop these irrational faiths that give us nothing and go after the truth! This life is all we have, and we have to face up the challenge of making it a better world than how we found it, rather than rejecting the world and waiting for the next one that is ‘promised’ to be better.

Luke:

Your simple, unswerving faith in Science, which has given us so much and provides so much truth, is certainly religious in and of itself.

As a similarly religious person, I do not buy the underlying argument that science is the only truth and that it is separate from and superior to the realm of theology.  The laws of thermodynamics, motion, etc. are all part of the universe as created by God.  Gravity, wavelengths, quarks, electricity, buoyancy, penicillin, things we study in petri dishes—all these are part of creation also.  They do not disprove the existence of God—they add to the Truth.  This I most truly believe.

@Luke:  You have fallen behind the times.  Even the most skeptical body of scientists have now concluded the universe has a creator.  There is too much evidence otherwise.  Furthermore, they have examined the Bible and found it accurate, historic and evidential.  Billions of lives have been changed based upon it.  Its uniqueness is that it is the *only* book of its kind.  The Bible is the first book ever published and remains the best selling book in the world each year—and every year.  The only reason you do not see it on the NY Times Best Sellers List is because they give the Bible a category of its own.  Manuscripts prove to this day the Bible is true along with archeology and prophesy written centuries before events occurred.  The Dead Sea Scroll discovered in 1947 testify the Torah was written word for word.  Manuscripts written in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic also testify to biblical accuracy.  Statistical probability also presents credibility to the existence of God.  Try as they might, science has never found any archeological discovery disproving anything written in Scripture concerning the Messiah.  Over 300 prophecies testify to Christ’s birth, death and resurrection centuries before His coming.  His form of execution was described centuries before crucifixion was invented.  The Bible is not just a collection of myths and made up stories.  Myths and legends only build up heroes.  To the contrary, the Bible contains far too much unflattering information about men from Abraham to Moses to David and beyond.  Men of adultery—all of them.  Moses and David committed murder.  Jesus’ own disciples (eyewitness to Christ) suffered and died for their faith in Him.  They were also weak men and some were pompous.  They also were fearful and ran away when Jesus needed them the most at the time of His arrest.  People do not suffer and die for “mythological figures.”  The first person to give testimony of His resurrection was a woman.  In Jewish culture, the testimony of women was not allowed in court.  If you were going to create a Jewish “myth” about someone rising from the dead at the time, you would certainly not chronicle to have a woman be the first eyewitness.  Luke, I’m sorry, I don’t have enough of your faith to DISbelieve.

No wonder that Roman Catholics are so gullible and ignorant.
They spout and/or gobble up any nonsense that supports their views, as wehn “lector at mass” proclaims above ” (Tuesday, Aug 16)
“Manuscripts prove to this day the Bible is true along with archeology and prophesy written centuries before events occurred.  The Dead Sea Scroll discovered in 1947 testify the Torah was written word for word.”  No serious bible scholar teaches such nonsense. A recent book by Jewish scholars Finkelstein and Silberman shows that David and Solomon couldn’t have built the kingdoms and buildings attributed to them in the bible because archeology shows that those developments didn’t occur until centuries after their death.
The bible teaches that the Jews were in exile in Egypt longer than there has been a “United States of America”.  Yet archeologists can’t find the millions of artifacts and documentation other than the bible that the Jews SHOULD have left behind, if they had actually lived and worked and died there in all that time!
And speaking of Egypt, where did Jesus go after he was born in Bethlehem, to Egypt for several years - as Matthew teaches? - OR back home to Nazareth - as Luke teaches? -  To see what people who actually STUDY the bible teach about it - as opposed to those who teach what they WISH the bible taught -  see my http://liberalslikechrist.org/biblestudy.html .

And now, let me ask a question to those of you Catholics who say that your Roman Catholic Church cannot fail because Jesus promised that “the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. 
Do you understand that in maintaining this belief you are saying in effect,
“There is NO AMOUNT OF EVIL that the official representatives of the Roman Catholic Church can say or do to cause me to lose my faith in this church, because of the promise made by Jesus Christ, the Son of God”.
Jesus’ promises cannot apply to some
unless they apply to all of Peter’s successors
        According to Matthew, Ch. 16, Jesus said to Peter:
        “Thou art Peter (a stone), and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
        To see how insane it is to believe that Jesus or God intended these words as a seal of divine authority for all of Peter’s successors, all one needs to do is put that theory to the test, as follows:
        “Stephen VII was completely mad.  He dug up a Corsican predecessor, Pope Formosus (891-6) when he had been dead for over nine months.  In what came to be known as the Cadaveric Synod, he dressed the stinking corpse in full pontificals, placed him on the throne in the Lateran and proceeded to interrogate him personally.  Formosus was charged with becoming pope under false pretences; he was bishop of another place, hence ineligible for Rome.  According to Pope Stephen, it made all his acts invalid, especially his ordinations.  A chattering teenaged deacon replied on Formosus’ behalf.  After being found guilty, the corpse was condemned as an antipope, stripped of all but a hair-shirt clinging to the withered flesh and, minus the two fingers with which he had given his fake apostolic blessing, was thrown into the Tiber.  The body, held together by the hair-shirt like a carcass of meat, was recovered by some of Formosus’ admirers and given a quiet burial.  Later, it was returned to its tomb in St Peter’s.  Stephen himself was soon strangled. ?        Popes maimed and were maimed, killed and were killed.  Their lives bore no resemblance to the gospels.  They had more in common with modern rich kids turned hooligans and junkies who haunt beach cafés and nightclubs than with Roman pontiffs as the world now sees them.  Some owed their preferment to ambitious parents, some to the sword, some to the influence of high-born and beautiful mistresses in what became known as `The Reign of the Harlots’.”  (p. 48)
        Who in his or her right mind believes that when Stephen VII was the current successor to Peter, it was Jesus’ intent to proclaim:
        “Thou, Stephen VII, art the rock upon which I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
This is just a small excerpt from my http://jesuswouldbefurious.org/PopesvsChrist.html page

“Yet archeologists can’t find the millions of artifacts and documentation other than the bible that the Jews SHOULD have left behind, if they had actually lived and worked and died there in all that time!”

There are very few artifacts left behind by the Jews in general, yet no one is disputing that they haven’t existed…thus a lack of artifacts from that specific time period isn’t surprising.

“And speaking of Egypt, where did Jesus go after he was born in Bethlehem, to Egypt for several years - as Matthew teaches? - OR back home to Nazareth - as Luke teaches? -”

He and his family fled to Egypt and stayed there for a time before returning to Nazareth…this much everyone with any passing knowledge of the Gospels knows.  This apparent discrepancy doesn’t actually exist…

“To see what people who actually STUDY the bible teach about it - as opposed to those who teach what they WISH the bible taught…”

I think, “Reverend” Ray, that after the above question I find it extremely hard to take the idea of you as a Bible scholar seriously…prove me wrong?

“And now, let me ask a question to those of you Catholics who say that your Roman Catholic Church cannot fail because Jesus promised that ‘the gates of hell will not prevail against it’.  Do you understand that in maintaining this belief you are saying in effect, ‘There is NO AMOUNT OF EVIL that the official representatives of the Roman Catholic Church can say or do to cause me to lose my faith in this church, because of the promise made by Jesus Christ, the Son of God’.  Jesus’ promises cannot apply to some unless they apply to all of Peter’s successors.”

Yes, as a Roman Catholic I understand the question perfectly.  And yes, I do believe that the gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church no matter what some of her representatives may do.  Not all of the authority figures of the Church throughout history have been saints, and it is impossible to demand that each one be blameless in every way.  Why?  Because they are HUMAN, for heaven’s sake.  You would not expect to find 10,000 perfect people in a crowd of 10,000, so would you really expect for countless numbers of the Catholic clergy throughout 2,000 years of history to have all, without exception, lived lives of perfect, unerring virtue?  Be realistic now.

Besides, the number of sinful clergy still do not trump the merits of the many, many (many) faithful clergy…including such notables as Pope John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI.

I realize that it can be difficult for Protestants to understand the idea of a church having a completely divine origin, rather than being ushered forth into being by a regular, pious guy who believed himself inspired, like many modern Christian denominations…but this is what we believe.  Thus, all the bad acts committed by villainous clergymen in the world cannot, ultimately, destroy it.  Human power is not greater than that of the Divine.

I have to address the passages you copied into your comment.  They don’t make much of a case in your favor if you analyze them carefully.  Now, I’ve heard of Stephen VII before.  His specific case is indeed shocking, and unfortunate, still, it clearly said that he was INSANE, so if I were you I would be less excited to uphold him as an example of evilness.  Of the following quote you posted: “‘Popes maimed and were maimed, killed and were killed.  Their lives bore no resemblance to the gospels. They had more in common with modern rich kids turned hooligans and junkies who haunt beach cafés and nightclubs than with Roman pontiffs as the world now sees them.’”  I am not denying that there were bad Popes throughout history.  However, this passage reeks of sweeping, generalized statements that are the opposite of scholarly.  Try again please.

I did not read all of the comments here (too many to read) so excuse me if this was already said…......

Those of you that are against the Catholic Church need to remember one thing…........Gods First Chosen People, the Jews, had many many sinful people and priests in it, who had gone astray many times over the thousands of years they were in existance as His Chosen People/religion, yet they “remained” His Chosen, with His Teachings in tact, until the Son of God came into the picture and established His New Chosen people/church….....The Catholic Church, which will remain in existance until the 2nd coming of the Son Of God, and probably beyond that. 

So the fact that the people in the Church has “strayed” many many times throughout its existance, does not mean that it is “not” the One True Church.  Like others have already said…...through all of it’s outer and inner problems, The Church has withstood the test of time….....“The Gates of Hell Will Not Prevail against it”.

How Blessed John Paul II led his life has inspired millions to turn towards Christ and his One Holy Church, however how he governed the Church broke the hearts of countless other millions and was in many ways an utter catastrophe. In charity one could say he simply was not equal to the task, but in honesty one must also concede ground to the charges that he was in many areas of governance, to one degree or another, he was simply not competent, and even grossly negligent.  From his liturgical “experimentations”, to his handling, and even support of, Marcial Maciel, to his continual appointment of countless liberal, even homosexual, bishops and cardinals, and his refusal or inability to recognize or handle the problem of homosexual priest pederasty in the Church, I find his quick beatification troubling.

Some 85-90% of cases of abuse were homosexual. It is important to remember that these were NOT cases of pedophilia but instead pederasty. One doctor who treats priests stated that he has never once treated a priest who abused a boy who did not also admit to engaging in homosexual sodomy with an adult. 

Also important to keep in mind: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/attorney-claims-as-many-as-half-of-priest-abuse-accusations-are-fraudulent/

@Lea S., I shall not bother with “Ray” since his source of Finkelstein as as Jewish scholarship is fringe among intellectuals and quite narrow at best.  Also, to tag “Ray” as a Protestant is actually insulting to Protestants since (unlike Ray) they also believe the Bible is inerrant and Holy Spirit inspired.

@Louise, (who wrote)  “until the Son of God came into the picture and established His New Chosen people/church….....The Catholic Church,...”  Louise, this is dispensationalist thinking—and contrary to Scripture.  The Catholic church has not replaced Israel.  The sons and daughters of Abraham remain God’s chosen people and they have not been replaced.  God does not break covenant.  That is contrary to His nature as He has revealed Himself to man in His Holy Word.

I agree with the author.  If you want to find the TRUTH—go to ligitiment sources. 

The media is truly EVIL and, for some reason, LOVES to knock religion—especially the Catholic Church.  It think it’s a Hollywood thing—considering all the drugs, alcohol and sexual perversion that goes on in that industry! 

2% of men of the cloth being accused of molestation is a VERY small amount vs. hundreds of thousands of Priests out there.  IMO, I feel many of the accusations are a bunch of BS—It’s just poeple trying to get a quick buck and/or have developed delusions of grander when seeing a secular psychologist—Sometimes they can do more harm than good.

  Curious? What’s the percentage of teachers molesting children? How about in certain ethnic populations? How many children are molested by deacons or pastors in other types of religions?—That’s never reported! There’s good and bad in everything—All we can do is pray and to always keep ours eyes open to look out for the best interest of children.

“
Posted by Luke on Monday, Aug 15, 2011 9:46 PM (EDT):I choose to follow the scientific method in my approach to understanding the world. Its given us such great things such as this computer that I am writing on. I guess I’ve just always been a practical person so I can see the pratical value of science and have never been presented with a practical reason for religion, especially catholicism, unless I would like a dose of anti-simitism.

Other than that, I would like to know any practical reason for a religion? Science has so far given us so much, and I hear there might be a cure for cancer around the corner! Lets just drop these irrational faiths that give us nothing and go after the truth! This life is all we have, and we have to face up the challenge of making it a better world than how we found it, rather than rejecting the world and waiting for the next one that is ‘promised’ to be better.”

IMO, you’re not practical at all if you just base things on science.  MANY scientist realize that there is a God—all the things around you, the earth the billions of stars, the milkyway, molecules are all energy and is is too intricate to just appear out of nowhere.

God has a hand in all things good-He provides poeple with the knowledge to become doctors, nurses, scientists, inventors and so on.  Everyone and everything on this earth has a purpose—From a tiny insect right up to the human race.

My proof? I’ve had Mary appear to me many times during prayer and meditation.  The grand energy that I have felt during mass, healing I have encountered at masses, the new journey I am on to change careers by going back to college after 15 years.  If you are open to spirit and surrender yourself to the Lord, he will provide.  For me, it’s great to know spiritually, someone’s got my back while I am living out my life on earth.

i find it very hard to blame JP2 for the scandals….he was pope..yes!....did he perform those sins and crimes? No…i have not seen any evidence that he heard or saw those priests and he applauded them…NEVER! Fr. Maximillian, do you know how many sins or crimes your parishioners or the people even close to you fall into everyday? When you do know, in all honesty, what did you do to them? Did you counsel them and push them to the police? You certainly are entitled to your opinion fr. max, i cannot stop you from airing them…..but if JP2 ‘erred’ in that aspect, he was a man…guided in his weakness by the promise of Our Lord 2,000yrs ago…and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it….Faith is not blind, but faith believes because a promise has been made by God. It sees through the human eyes all there is but it believes with divine light, that there is a purpose for all that happens and all will be well.

“Quite often the Pope knows very little to nothing about a recommendation of someone to be appointed Bishop”

That’s very possible true. It’s the very opposite of what happened with John Magee. How close was Magee to the Papacy? HE WAS FIRST MAN TO FIND JOHN PAUL I’S BODY. He was that Pope’s secretary, he went on to serve John Paul II in the same capacity. He was then made master of the Papal Ceremonies and then was appointed Bishop of Cloyne.

So,

“i find it very hard to blame JP2 for the scandals….he was pope..yes!....did he perform those sins and crimes? No…i have not seen any evidence that he heard or saw those priests and he applauded them…”

I’m sorry, but John Paul II probably knew John Magee as well as he knew any Bishop. Magee was a career Vatican man who reported directly to the Vatican and was the first person to see two successive Popes every morning, he wasn’t some rogue operative in the middle of nowhere.

Look, we don’t know where Bishop Magee is at the moment. We’ll find out soon enough. Here’s a test of your faith: make a deal, now. If it turns out he’s being sheltered by the Catholic Church or a senior Catholic, donate $5 to Planned Parenthood. If you have the courage of your convictions, and have faith the Church couldn’t possibly be sheltering the evil pervert, this shouldn’t pose a problem, should it?

“I shall not bother with ‘Ray’ since his source of Finkelstein as Jewish scholarship is fringe among intellectuals and quite narrow at best.  Also, to tag ‘Ray’ as a Protestant is actually insulting to Protestants since (unlike Ray) they also believe the Bible is inerrant and Holy Spirit inspired.”

Ha ha, true—however, you never know who might be reading so perhaps my comment will help out someone who might otherwise be swayed by similar “objections”...

“How about in certain ethnic populations?”

Which ‘ethnic population’ do you feel has a particular tendency to abuse its children?

Some trial ballons are not being sent up to redefine early teen sexual attraction, or hebephilia as a condition and no as some state to be criminalized. This is by groups such as B4U-ACT.

Estimates are that about 8-10% of all adults in the helping professions have some infractions of sexual abuse of underage children or teens. I suspect the credible rate for Catholic priests is about 2%, considerable less than the overall average, but much more than what is expected.

To those who ask “when will there be no sexual abuse of minors by the Catholic Clergy”, the answer is “never”. There will always be some. Anyone who exects any 40,000 men (U.S. priests) to have a perfect record on this is silly and naieve.

This who drama, or moral panic about sexual abuse by priests is just the recontinuation of the 19th century paradign about this. The “maria monk” story of the 19th century was the second higher sell in the U.S., closely behind “Uncle Tom’s Cabin”. People just knew that there were subterrainian chambers beneath rectories where male and female sex slaves were kept and there were tunnels connecting the rectories with convents for liasons with nuns and burrial chambers for murder nun children and aborted nun fetii. People just “knew” this was going on and that such tunnels and chambers existed. The drama today is just a moderized version of all this drama.

“Anyone who exects any 40,000 men (U.S. priests) to have a perfect record on this is silly and naieve.”

Well that’s all right, then, I guess we should all shut up about it.

Look ... this is simple enough. It’s true that we know that ‘only’ 2-5% of priests abused children. And it’s true that wherever men (mainly) in positions of authority over children are left alone with them, there will be a level of abuse. That’s not right or nice, but, yes, that is a fact of life. Not one person here is arguing that the only person who ever abused a child is a Catholic priest. At the same time, the idea that some level of it is somehow tolerable because ‘it’s bound to happen’ or that it’s ‘human nature’ is abhorrent (and distinctly anti-Catholic). Pedophilia isn’t a normal behavior, it’s a serious mental illness, and more to the point creates victims who are often traumatized for life. It’s not something we all get up to, it’s something that’s beyond the pale.

The scandal is not that some abuse happened. That’s appalling, and that’s not exactly a great argument for priests having great moral authority or practicing what they preach, or even being honest or decent, but that’s not the scandal.

The scandal is what the church authorities did afterwards - sheltered the priests, moved them away (where many abused again), didn’t report the incident to the police, blocked investigations, destroyed records, filed false reports (while privately having a true report), threatened victims, discredited victims, played some very dubious legal and financial tricks (moving assets out of one diocese into another and having the first diocese declare bankruptcy). Downplayed the scale and seriousness, spread propaganda that it was all a fuss about nothing, that the media were biased. They blamed homosexuals and the devil. In his UK visit last year, the Pope had the sheer gall to blame atheist values for the child abuse scandal.

This is not how child abuse is dealt with in a secular institution. It happens in schools, but teachers are immediately suspended on an accusation, the police are called, there’s full transparency. There’s zero tolerance of any contact that looks like sexual contact. Things are carefully arranged so that it’s rare that one adult is ever left alone in private with one child.

And it’s known that the Vatican has told Archbishops to hush things up, to consider themselves responsible to a higher authority than the law of a particular land. We know that some of the most egregious men behind the cover ups are the closest to the Pope personally.

So *that’s* the scandal. By covering up, the Catholic Church became a safe haven for pedophiles. Now, I’m not saying that the Pope did that personally and deliberately. I’m saying that successive administrations (of which the Pope was head) knew what was happening (know better than we do, as they’re still not transparent), saw a growing problem and the things they did made it worse. They did the very worst things: turn a blind eye at first, then seek to protect the institution.

And the Pope’s said he’s sad and apologized ... but still shelters priests by whisking them away (Google ‘vatican shielding abuse’). The current Pope is suspected of doing this personally:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/03/more-evidence-emerges-tha_n_524192.html

So *that’s* the scandal.

When children are abused in schools, and in other churches, it is reported. But look at what the people running those institutions did. Usually they quickly isolated the abuser, co-operated with the police, set up hotlines and staff training, made it easy and safe to report abuse. Nipped the problem in the bud. There are other churches with abuse problems - again, these are reported by the media, and legal action is taken against abusers and those who shield them.

The Catholic Church receives more attention because it’s bigger and considers itself above the law, and because it did the opposite of the right thing. And *that’s* the scandal.

And these arguments have come up a number of times in this discussion:

1. The media/atheists/liberals make it sound like child abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem but it’s not, it’s everywhere.
2. The Devil would target priests more than regular people because he seeks to undermine God.

Well ... you have to pick one of those, both can’t be true.

The thing that’s surprised me about Jennifer’s argument and subsequent defenses of it is that people here have rallied around (2), that priests aren’t perfect. Whereas the Pope’s position is mainly (1), that enemies of the church have hyped up the scandal.

Jemina Cole, So you tell us that the schools behave proper towards Child Abuse, who are you trying to fool, the New York Public School system runs a system called “pass the trash whare Child Abusing teachers are transferred from district to district, no Police involved there, and Corey Feldman was on the TV during the week telling us that Child Abuse was wide spread in Hollywood , where were the pllice there and of course the Media and even the Paediphille Polanski was awarded and Oscar by the Academy Of Motion pictures. and the stories of disgraced teachers in rubber rooms getting their salaries instead of being in prison, , you have been missing from this tread for a longtime, maybe you should stay should study the conditions on the cover ups in the New York public school system before you go on your Catholic Bashing journey, another thing tell me what was the system to control Child Abuse and Murderin the Soviet Union which was run by your felloe Atheists

“Jemina”

Con O’Sullivan. I’ve already explained why I’m not addressing your points: because you’ve failed to demonstrate the courtesy, attention to detail and basic language skills that would make it worthwhile.

You’re getting *worse*. It’s the *first fricking word* this time. Learn to speak, we’ll talk.

@con o sullivan:  I thought we had already covered this part of the issue several times.  Stop using school teachers,coaches and others to finger point at.  Clergy are held to a higher standard.  They present themselves as “Persona Christi.”  The Pope is presented as the “Vicar of Christ of Earth.”  They have even greater accountability.  Why cannot we as Catholics “own the problem” and clean up our house before finger pointing at other people?  If Bishops really wanted swift, effective action, they would allow qualified lay professionals to manage this problem.  Local and respected Catholic corporate business executives exist in every diocese.  We could establish a Board of Directors who issue policy and discipline for clergy integrity.  The Bishop would have to adhere to the Board of Directors —not the other way around.  And the Board would not be appointed by the Bishop but voted on by Catholics in the dioceses.  But don’t hold your breath.  Bishops will never yield authority to an independent board which they are subject to.

Lestor at Mass,I have made myself clear to you what I feel about child and the evils of it, I am adressing a person called Jermina Cole,  Jemima Cole pointed out that schools hae their house in order, which they have not, now Lecvtor at Mass do you think school children should be protected from abusers as well as Catholic Children from abusive clerics, and I also think of the innocent Catholic Children murdered and abused by Lemima Cole’s fellow Atheists, are they important Lector at Mass to you, or are they not?  I suggest you give some thought to my last sentence.

@con o sullivan, that is a ridiculous question since all children are important whether or not they are Catholic.  Why are you bothering to argue with atheists?  1 Corinthians 1:18 says:  “The Word of God is foolishness to a perishing man.”  Jemima Cole has deceptively taken the discussion away from the Fulwiler topic.

Lector at Mass. Frankly I think it no problem to shake up Catholic hating Atheists like Jemima Cole, when the harrd questions are put , like all of those Millitant Atheists, Jemima Cole can only resort to personel insults, I know whare I stand on child abuse. I am on the same wavelength as you

Wow! So many comments! And how many negative!
How about reading this article written by a Jewish businessman (non-Catholic) in defense of the Catholic Church. He shows pretty nasty statistics of other denominations pointing out that this issue is much bigger in other places.
Yes - even ONE case of child abuse (or a sin) is ONE TOO MANY. The Catholic Church is not a museum of Saints. It’s a hospital for sinners. If you want to find people who are sinners, please come here. It’s the place where you find salvation too.

Blessings,
Greg.

http://fratres.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/redemption-comes-through-the-jews-jewish-businessman-sam-miller-whaps-anti-catholic-bias-in-news-media-full-text/

“Jemima Cole has deceptively taken the discussion away from the Fulwiler topic.”

How so? Jennifer’s argument is to downplay the problem, say everyone’s at it in the secular world, too, and then make the startlingly counterintuitive leap that divine intervention is the only thing that’s possibly keeping the rotten ship afloat, so we should get on the ship.

The 2% figure misses the point entirely. It’s a fiddled figure, it counts only those accused of abuse. The scandal is that those people were protected. And the people who were protecting them were very senior.

Bishop Magee is not a ‘change of subject’ here, he’s indicative of the problem. He sheltered abusers, he was himself an abuser, he lied to the police, he was personal secretary to the Pope, a career Vatican man, reporting directly to the Vatican at all times. The big issue is not that he’s a child abuser, appalling crime though that is, it’s the other stuff. Which Jennifer just ignores. 

Now Con O Sullivan holds me accountable for the crimes of Stalin because neither of us are/were Catholics. I’ve tried to explain to him using small words and hand puppets why that’s ridiculous. It’s like saying that I’m complicit in bank robbery because someone who wasn’t a Phillies fan robbed a bank and I’m not a Phillies fan.

But assume he’s right, and I’m someone who is complicit in mass murders before I was born, in a country I’ve never been to, under a regime I think is abhorrent. That that’s how the world of accountability and complicity works, that’s the standard we should all be held to. OK. Now - apply that to the priesthood. How could the current and last Popes not be accountable for the child abuse scandal? When they were there, running the Vatican?

It’s not ‘changing the argument’, it’s that Jennifer ignores the real problem. Child abuse happens in any organization where adults come into contact with children. That is appalling, and no one argues otherwise. It’s how that organization deals with it that matters. How do they try to prevent it, how is it handled when it’s discovered, how are the perpetrators punished? *That’s* where the real problem lies. Not in the sick individuals who abused children, but in the institutional response, which can be boiled down to ‘turn a blind eye, don’t call the police’.

Did other institutions make similar mistakes. Some of them, yes. But the problem is better understood now, and they don’t any more. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has made a sad face and said sorry, but Cloyne shows that they’ve made few changes to what they do.

Mr O’Sullivan, best I can make out, is saying that you’re far more likely to get abused in a New York public school. OK. Here’s number of the hotline and the details of procedure if that happens: https://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/cps/ OK, now find the Catholic equivalent for New York. Google it. Go on, have a look around. Even using Jennifer’s figures, one priest in fifty is a child rapist. New York Cathedral can seat 2100. If you filled it with priests, using Jennifer’s fiddled figures, there would be over forty pedophiles in the room. If you had something to report, where would you report it and how would you keep up to date on how that accusation is being treated?

Jemima Cole, The reason I am pointing out Len and Stalin is that they were Atheists and they mudered Catholics and other Christians because they were Catholics and Christians, and about Phillies fans, Phillies fans never murdered Catholics because they were Catholics. It is very easy for the New York Public School to put have websites asking abused Children or their Families to contact. Maybe you should loginto to an article printed this year resulatedetermination. wordpress. com,/ /... why-are-the-public. which shows that nothing has changed about the public schools and child abuse. The Catholic put in place proseedures which all dioces agreed to a proceedure that Priests accused of Child abuse would be stood down and the matters reported to the Police, O callaghan did not do that and Magee did not supervise him, now Magee from the latest news I am hearing is back in Ireland. and it is up to the Police to take whatwver action is necessary. Now JemimaCole last week you made a statement that Benedict was told that he was not welcome in Ireland, where did you get that information, you also stated that Benedict should be jailed, on what evidence have you come to that conclusion.

“Phillies fans never murdered Catholics”

Oh good grief. This is what grown ups call an ‘analogy’.

OK, I will use one syllable words this time.

If John is not a fan of a sport, and so has no team, that man’s team is not a club named ‘No Team’. If Bill is not a fan of that sport, is not from John’s town, has not met John, Bill and John are not both ‘No Team fans’ who all think and do the same things. There is same rule for those who do not think God is real. So Joe not think God real. Me not think God real. Not make Joe and me part of same group. 

Now, if that still baffles you, I’m sorry.

There are a lot of comments here and I have not had the time to read them all, but has anyone considered that the Catholic clergy and Catholics in general hold themselves to a “higher standard” as leaders and examples in society? If star football or basketball players were ever caught in such a scandal, they would (and should) be vilified bye society and the press. Their careers would be shattered, they would be punished. They would NOT be moved to different teams in other cities where they could molest more young fans.
—
—
I’ve been to other posts where I was accused of “misusing sex” simply for advocating contraception. Yet when Catholics misuse sex, and get caught, all they have to do is confess and “promise” not to do it again to a fellow clergyman, who will do anything to protect the Church.
—
—
If you’re any sort of decent parent, you will warn your children about sexual predators and abusers before letting them meet alone with a nun or a priest.

Ardrienne, I do not where you get the idea that Catholics are sympathetic to Child abusing Priests. I do not know whether you are Catholic or not but you are sadly missinformed

@ con o sullivan: Maybe this article will interest you?
-
—
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/17/religion.childprotection

or this one?
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html
—
—
and good-old Wikipedia:
——
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Resignations.2C_retirements_and_defrockings

Ardrienne, and your point is

Jemima Cole, Stalin and Lenin were Anti Catholic Atheists , andyou Jemima Cole are an anti Catholic Atheist, unfortunately for you and your ilk unlike the communist/Atheist junta of the Soviet Union in the West people are entitled to practice their faith. If Atheists is not a club what is Atheist America doing and what does it stand for, bashing Catholics I suppose. In Ireland there is an Anti Catholic Organisation whose sole purpose in Catholic Bashing. They even hosted The World Atheist Congress this year with well Catholic haters Dawkins and PZ MYers ( who some years ago desicrated a Catholic Host), so why don’t you sign up to American Atheist, Catholic Bashing would be great fun to you and you can discussAtheist Heroes Stalin and Lenin

Jemima…..such anger. I pray for you!

“Jemima…..such anger.”

For Con O Sullivan? No, just an amused exasperation. For institutional child abuse ... what emotion would you suggest? Quiet compliance and simple faith that the Lord will see things right? With the best will in the world, isn’t that what got all those kids raped in the first place?

“PZ MYers ( who some years ago desicrated a Catholic Host)”

I think they’re pretty dry already, so I don’t know why he’d bother doing that.

“the Catholic clergy and Catholics in general hold themselves to a “higher standard””

I agree, but I don’t think it even needs to go that far. How can they speak with any moral authority? How dare they try to tell us how to behave?

The only answer is to invoke God. God’s son gave them the keys to the van and told them they could drive it where they want, so it was all part of the plan that they’d use it to drive around abducting kids. That’s an argument against God, though, not for abuse.

As for the Pope not being welcome in Ireland -

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/papal-visit-in-doubt-as-relations-worsen-2822410.html

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14281441

It’s a simple, plain fact that the Pope would not be welcome at the moment.

Oh, and Bishop Magee has returned to Ireland and is living in a house ‘provided for his use’ by the Church.

Could you please tell the source that the Pope is not welcome in Ireland, not newspaper speculation without fact, otherwise name the person who said that and who is he or she, Now since you called Magee a Child Abuser we shall wait and see how he gets on in Court when he is charged, Jemima Cole since you are a Catholic hating Atheist(like Lenin and Stalin) the Catholic Church has no rights over or any interest surely you can invoke tha Atheist Heroes Hitchins, Dawkins Lenin , Mao ,Stalin and Pol Pot, they are Atheists role models and do not forget PZ Myers another fine example , and you are very quiet about the Child Abuise in the NY public school system, 100 times more than by Catholic Priests

Jemima Cole, wher do you get the idea that Catholics hold themselves to a “higher standard”, I am afraid you are talking about something you know nothing about, tell us where did you get that evidence, it seems the like of Hitchens and Dawkins seem to set themselves as a Higher Standard. Last year when the PopE visited England Hitchins the moral gaurdian of the world decided that he was going to London th Arrest the Pope, with Dawkins and other assorted malcontents, well you know what happened , Hitchins was afraid to turn and the rest of the brave Atheists had a march and demonstration at which 2,000 people bothered to turn up, and mealwhile 80,000 people went to see the Pope in Hyde Park London, did you know about that fiasco ? as I said to you before you do not give a damn about Abuse, why your fellows Atheists murdered millions of adults and children without you caring one little bit.Anyone Catholic or Atheist who abused children should be imprisoned, now tell me about the Atheist cover up of the Murders of Catholic Polish soldiers by your fellow Atheists in 1940 in the Katyn Forest on the orders of Yes another Atheist Stalin, or is it only Catholics do awfull things

@ con o sullivan
I don’t know if Jemima Cole made the same point, but I wrote about the idea of Catholics holding themselves to a higher standard. Apart from their arrogance and tendency be offended at the slightest disagreement, you honestly believe your religion should be imposed on everyone else. I’ve been told time and time again on this site that I am immoral, “misuse sex” (I think that is classic), and cannot be happy without (Catholic) faith. You also suggest above that the “Murders of Catholic Polish soldiers” any worse than the atrocities done by societies all over the world, regardless of faith or atheism?
—
Moreover, you are using the stupid argument of “well, so do you” when confronted by evidence of Catholic-based crimes. No one is telling you Atheists are better humans, and we don’t tell you how to live.
—
BTW, have you looked at the links I posted? Usually it’s a waste of my time because Catholics are very selective about what they read.

“No one is telling you Atheists are better humans, and we don’t tell you how to live.”

This is an interesting and crucial point. Advocates for gay marriage, for example, are not seeking to force Catholic priests to perform the ceremonies. The law passed in New York, for example, was so specific on that point that Archbishop Dolan was reduced to spluttering that it didn’t protect bigoted florists and homophobic wedding cake sellers. (Google ‘Archbishop Dolan Scandal’ if you want some fun facts about his moral code, incidentally).

Advocates for women’s rights do not seek to make abortions compulsory or available at shopping malls or to force Catholics to have them (the rate of abortions among US Catholics is pretty much exactly the rate among the general population, as it happens).

Catholic political activists seek to impose their values on others, we do not seek to impose our values on them. And I think Con O Sullivan’s singular failure to distinguish the difference between belief and non-belief is very telling. ‘Don’t impose your bullshit on us’ is not us imposing.

There are some very disturbing totalitarian overtones to this discussion at times. It’s telling, again, that Mr O Sullivan’s attempt to find a parallel to the Church’s actions hits on Stalin. Jennifer’s belief that the Church is so terrible it must be divinely protected has a rather surreal ‘War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery’ ring to it. The people who’ve said that the Pope and Vatican could literally commit any atrocity and it would only strengthen their faith ... these are just not healthy things to believe.

It’s also a worldview that lacks predictive power. I was shouted at for daring to suggest the Church might be supporting Bishop Magee ... well, now he says they gave him a free house. Sounds like support to me.

““How about in certain ethnic populations?”

Which ‘ethnic population’ do you feel has a particular tendency to abuse its children?”

Also, Teddy, you clearly missed me asking this question. I would still be delighted to hear your reply. Or if anyone else wants to field it, that would also be interesting, I’m sure.

Ardrienne, Since I notice you are not a Catholic why do you bother on the website of a Catholic newspaper, and I can only speak for myself I do not shove my Religious belief down any ones throat, . this morning for instance I went with my Godson to the local Anglican as I do each Sunday , and I have friends who are Presbyterian , Baptist,  Atheist Moslim , Agnostic and others whose faith I do not know so do not put me into the imagenary box you have made , that shows Catholics are   better than anyone else. Since Jemima Cole who I was addressing has no interest in the crimes committed her fellow Atheists and has no interest in the Child Abuse of Non Catholics I just thought I would remind her of the Katyn Forest Massacre and the cover up of same. So Adrienne if you think I am going to lecture you about morals or anythink else you have got the wrong person. About the Newspaper links, if you think I am going to regard as fact articles written in the New York Times and The Gaurdian you are very naive, what will say is that Weakland was forced as Bishop for stealing money from his Diocese to pay his lover so taking the words of that thief as Goldstein did is a laugh, Last year The Gaurdian launched a vicious campaign against Benedict’s visit to England but it failed and huge crowds greeted him and the Atheist procession was a flop

Jemima Cole How do you know that Magee is getting the house free?, he is probably paying rent for it, As far as I know Magee has not been convicted of any crime or has come before any court, unlike your fallow Atheists who murdered at will, Magee is innocent until proven guilty, isI thought that the same law applied to the USA, but of course you as you said about Benedict and John Paul being jailed preferred the Atheist Soviet Law of no trial. I am very interested about your ideas of Gay Marriage, well next I am going to the Gay Marriage of my cousin in London so you can write me off as a Homophobic person , Gay Marriage does not terouble one bit but your fellow Atheist Stalin treated Gay People terribly, yes members of the Catholic church have done awfull things, so have teachers , Parents, grandparents Uncles , Doctors Cab drivers and every other Profession have abused Children, so that means we do not send our Children,to school, go to a Doctor, go in a cab, of course you as an Atheist do not believe that your fellow Atheists did ant wrong did they

“How do you know that Magee is getting the house free?”

Hmmm. Good point. Magee has said ‘I am a retired bishop living at a house so kindly provided for my use in the parish of Mitchelstown’, as quoted at http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tracked-down-and-the-bishop-still-has-nothing-to-say-2853866.html, but you are right that he’s an habitual liar and might have been using his famous ‘mental reservation’ technique where it doesn’t count as a lie if he crosses his finger and tells God he’s sorry (see the Cloyne Report for further details).

I’m sure the rest of your post was very interesting, too. I have a policy now of stopping at your first spelling mistake, so I only got as far as ‘fallow’.

Jemima Cole, The country I live in country that a person is innocent until proven guilty, so from what I gather it is the same in the USA, of course in the country run by your fellow Atheists Stalin and Lenin, trials did not matter, last week you made a statement the John Paul and Benedict should have been jailed, but that would have been under the Atheist Law of the Soviet Union. I do hope Magee is arrested soon and the Law can take its course, until then in the eyes of the Law he is innocent of Child Abuse.Now Jemina Cole. About Gay People did not your fellow Atheist Stalin murder Gay People because they were Gay, well you are an Atheist after the murders by by your fellow Atheists Stalin, Lenin , Mao, Pol Pot,If you want to talk about people interfeering in other people beliefs, shall I mention the Soviet Union and its Atheist Regime , no worry abou wedding cakes there was there,

@ con o sullivan:
—
First: I am visiting a Catholic forum because it is a public forum—a place where people come together to discuss ideas. If people make statements in a public forum that they want others to accept, they have to be prepared to reply to public criticism. It may be a Catholic-based site, but you are not just “preaching to the choir.”
—
Second, You may have been addressing Jemima Cole, but she was referring to my comment, and she added to my second comment.
—
Third: “Since Jemima Cole who I was addressing has no interest in the crimes committed her fellow Atheists and has no interest in the Child Abuse of Non Catholics I just thought I would remind her of the Katyn Forest Massacre and the cover up of same.”
==
How dare you insult Jemima Cole and her “fellow Atheists” (including me) of having not interest in the child-abuse and other crimes of non-Catholics? It takes a hell of a lot of chutzpah since you obviously don’t care about the child-abuse and other crimes of Catholics. Actually, it is worse than the “so, you are too” fallacy I mentioned earlier. Its more like the “I’m rubber and you’re glue—everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you” response one can expect from children. The same goes for your lecture about how you are not the kind of Catholic who lectures about morals.
—
Finally, I’m not surprised you don’t read public newspapers—It explains why you don’t know much of anything in the real world. I’m sure the only reading you do is by Catholic apologists—and “blasphemy” –the idea of saying or even thinking anything against the Church or Christian religion, is one of the best circular arguments the Catholics ever came up with. You’re accusing Jemima Cole of exactly what you are doing—not paying attention to what you don’t want to know.

“How dare you insult Jemima Cole and her “fellow Atheists” (including me) of having not interest in the child-abuse and other crimes of non-Catholics?”

There is, of course, also the double standard: if we read a Catholic forum, we’re somehow doing something wrong; if we don’t show interest in Catholic abuse victims, we’re doing something wrong.

Jennifer’s site frequently baits atheists. She claims to be a former atheist (many religious people do, with varying degrees of plausibility). I’m not sure what this means on the Sullivan Culpability Scale - she was complicit in Stalin’s atrocities but now isn’t? - but Jennifer understands the game, and knows she attracts hits to the site this way.

“You’re accusing Jemima Cole of exactly what you are doing—not paying attention to what you don’t want to know.”

Indeed. There are things about Catholicism I’m curious about. As Jennifer says, I can understand why people *remained* Catholics as the child abuse scandal blossomed. I found it difficult to understand why someone would jump onto the sinking ship in the way Jennifer did. Her answer (it’s a ship so full of holes that only some powerful magic can possibly be holding it above the water line) isn’t one I find persuasive, but it’s one I find illuminating.

This thread has made it abundantly clear that very few here are following the story except through Catholic sources. The retreading of Vatican talking points and slogans, the toeing the line, the distrust of the media, the belief that the Pope could not or should not have possibly known what was going on.

So again, the double standard. We get told off for knowing more about Magee’s career than the people who’ve helped pay his wages all the years he was abusing kids.

“Jemima Cole, The country I live in country”

Stopped reading there, I’m afraid. Major grammatical mistake. I’ll talk with you when you you learn to talk.

Adrienne, Yes I am curious about an Atheist visiting a Catholic site,I thought you would prefer reading the New York times or some other Anti Catholic paper, maybe you are used to bulllying people on this site and it gives a bit of a lift, or course many Catholics may not be aware of the slaughter in the Soviet Union of Catholics and other Christian, and their Churches taken over and made into Museums Of Atheism but since I have Russian and Polish friends it is right that I fill them in I have said throughout this tread that I despise any Catholic that abuses a Child or any Bishop that covers it up. If you think I am illeterate you are sadly misstaken, but if you want to give me facts give me evidence not something from Goldstein from the New York Times, and from the Gaurdian. and I will not suggest to you that you read “The Black Book Of Communism”.

Jemima Cole Wrong again about the sinking ship. 1,000,000 young people in Madrid to see the Pope. 400 at the World Atheist Gathering. and where is the Atheist Government in the Soviet Union,  in fact there are 200 new Churches being built in Moscow, and remember Magee he has not been put on trial yet for abusing kids, so he is innocent until proven guilty, we are not in you fellow Atheist run Soviet Union.

“If you think I am illeterate you are sadly misstaken”

You couldn’t make it up, could you?

Jemima Cole. Cannot answer my points can you? your days of bullying Catholics on this page are gone. Go Back and read the New York Times

@ con o sullivan:
You are welcome to come to any Atheist forum and express your thoughts there. If you only want people who agree with whatever you say, I suggest you start your own blog where you can screen out people you don’t like
—
Every once in a while, I like to visit a site that talks about different ideas—even ideas that might make me uncomfortable. Exploring other people’s opinions keeps my head from swelling with false ideas and helps me think about what I’m saying. I don’t feel it is a personal attack when someone points out flaws in my comments. That is what forums are for, and I would welcome an informed criticism from you—but from your comments I don’t expect one.

Now you are calling me a bully—Are you really hurt by what I say? Do my words matter so much to you?
—
They finally arrested a real cyber bully in Canada—or are you prejudiced against that country too?
—
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110818/mtl_mabus_110818/20110819/?hub=MontrealHome

“Go Back and read the New York Times”

Fun fact: the editor of the NYT, Bill Keller, was raised Catholic, went to two Catholic schools and got married in a Catholic ceremony in 1999. True, he now describes himself as a ‘collapsed Catholic’, but neither is he an atheist.

“in fact there are 200 new Churches being built in Moscow”

This sounded odd, so I looked it up. Are you referring to this?

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Foundations-laid-for-first-of-200-new-Orthodox-churches-in-Moscow-21434.html

1. None are actually being built yet.
2. Only eight or nine might be started in the foreseeable future.
3. THEY’RE ALL RUSSIAN ORTHODOX

So, to conclude: well done, excellent point. You only got everything wrong.

As usual, Catholics are playing the victim when they are accused of victimizing others. They filter their information against criticism and are shocked when they come to a public forum and find they are not automatically applauded as great thinkers. It hurts their feelings and every critic is a bully, because we made them cry.
—

“It hurts their feelings and every critic is a bully”

And every negative report of a negative situation is ‘bias’. The NYT is ‘biased’, the US government is ‘biased’, the BBC is ‘biased’, the *Irish government* turns out to be a bastion of anti-Catholic sentiment. Who knew?

Strangely enough, no, the Cloyne Report into decades of institutional abuse and deception wasn’t positive.

If these really are the guardians of eternal truths, why does it all ring so false? Why does it fall over at the slightest challenge? Why has every piece of physical evidence that’s been produced turned out to be the product of a forger after five seconds’ examination?

Jemima Cole—I’m not sure how many times you’ve tried to “reason” with the self-proclaimed defenders of the Catholic Church. They don’t do well with facts, but they know how to baffle you with bulls**t.
—

Earlier I commented on the anger I sense from Jemima. A reply to that was that there could be no other way to respond to the abuse in the church;My reply..I feel more than anger toward the abusers. You may think they are getting away with those repulsive crimes, but I assure you, if they are unrepentant, their final judgement will make prison, here on earth, seem like a walk in the park. They have allowed the devil to use them and there will be a price to pay. Because I have faith that this is so, I don’t need to see their punishment.
Jemima’s persistance in attempting to personally convict the Church, to me, is proof of the anger she/he is harboring.
Yes, I still plan to pray for Jemima

@Samilou: In that case, the POPE will judged as well. At least that is my wishful thinking.

Adrienne. No i have no intention of going on Atheist sites, I went on the Atheist Ireland site and it was full of Ati Catholic bile, so why bother argueing with those people. your words do not hurt me one bit, coming from an Atheist whose fellow Atheists murdered and reped all before them in The Soviet Union , China.

Where did I write Orthodox in my statement about 200 churches being built in Moscow, I am afraid you did not read the statement.
When I present facts to you I do not have to use a New York rag with a hack reporter like Goldstein, in fact many others feel the same because circulation has dropped and it is losing money> I have presented a Report by Dr Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra College in Long Island and she states that a child has 100 times more chance of being abused by a teacher in that system by a Priest, Another tit bit for you, where did the Museums Of Atheism go in Moscow

Jemima Cole,The answer about the Museums Of Atheism is that they have been handed bach to the Churches, if fact the Catholic Cathedral was returned in 1990 and it is now drawing huge crowds each Sunday, so as an Atheist you are a bit too late thinking of travelling now but of course you can see the stuffed body Of Lenin in Red SQ, you will like that at least. Strange with you wishing for the jailing for Benedict and Magee, you seem to be silent about those Soviet Monsters, of course Atheism in common Now Jemima Cole did you read the Cloyne Report, I presume you know where Cloyne is, and also you seem to be silent about the Child abuse in the Naw York Public School System, yes I suppose you are not interested in Child Abuse unles it is done by Catholic Priest, very strange indeed.

“I assure you, if they are unrepentant, their final judgement”

As an atheist, I think that’s exactly as likely as Batman catching them.

But even assuming I’m wrong, and in the afterlife God will punish those who He gave such great authority to in life ... so what? To fob off judgment on God, to leave to Him to sort out is an act of moral laziness, even cowardice. Why not use the same argument for all criminals? Don’t bother with having police and courts?

You accept it with the priesthood because you’ve set them apart, decided that special rules apply to them, that they’re above the sort of codes of conduct and laws of the land we are. And, again, it’s that kind of thinking that got the Church into this mess in the first place.

The solution is very simple: the same rules, the laws of the land, should apply to everyone, equally. No special dispensation for priests, no extra benefit of the doubt, or added tolerance. That’s all I’d need to make me happy.

Jemima Cole You can believe or not believe that is your choiche. Umlike the Atheist run Soviet Union when if you believed you were sent to Siberia and almose certain death

“I commented on the anger I sense from Jemima.”

And again, I’m not angry generally. I think ‘anger’ is an appropriate response when you look at the abuse scandal. I find the ‘oh, it’s no big deal’ public response from Catholics a bit sad, to be honest. I’ve spoken to Catholic friends about it, and those that haven’t just thrown their hands up and said ‘to hell with them’ are far more weary. Like battered wives trying to make it work, I think, in a couple of cases. I know you all think it’s horrible. I don’t really understand why you’d keep going. I don’t really understand how many times the priests have to lie to you before you start questioning their claims they bear ‘eternal truth’.

But I’m not angry at anyone specifically here. It’s difficult to get tone across online. When you look at my responses to Con O Sullivan, say, imagine he’s a two year who’s brought me a picture of an ‘elephant’ that looks like a big cat that’s orange and stripey. Pat head, try again dear, oh, he’s just redrawn exactly the same picture. Imagine *that* tone of voice.

“Jemima Cole You can believe or not believe that is your choiche.”

I believe abortion should be legal, and freely available to all women who choose it. 

Do I get that freedom of choice, too?

Jemona Cole, I am afraid I am not getting through to you, I told before that I condemn the Child abuse comitted by Priests and the covering up by Bishops, which word of that comment do you not understand, but your silence about the Muderds and Rapes comitted by your fellow Atheists and the Abuse comitted in the New York Public School System tell me that you do not care about sex abuse comitted by people outside the Catholic Church. About abortion you can have an abortion every 9 months if you wish as far as I care.

“They don’t do well with facts”

I don’t think that’s quite fair. The problem is that they start with a different set of axioms. If you take as axiomatic that God exists, that God gets to magically be the exception to every rule, or that a human being is formed the moment the sperm touches the egg, then they reach the only logical conclusion.

The dodgier ones, I think are just the very spurious historical claims: that the Church is the only one that claims apostolic succession, that the Church’s teaching has never changed in substance and so on. Once you start accepting *those* as axiomatic, you have a reality problem.

You’re right, the Pope, as well as all of us will face that judgement, including those who desecrate all/any life! I don’t see it as a “cop-out” of justice. It’s simply meaning that civil law here on earth is allowed to process, but in the end true guilt or innocence is known only to God. Thus those convicted here may not be as guilty as we think, just as those we see as getting off “scott free” may face a horrible retribution.
I am fully aware that I’m not going to convince you of the existence of the Lord, but I believe at the last second of your life you will know!

Jemima Cole, You have not answered my questions about your attitude to the murder of millions by your fellow Atheists, and the Child Abuse in New York, so do I take it that you do not care about abuse of children by non Catholic Clergy, your silence says it all, and another little tit bit for you 1.5 Million young people at the Catholic World Youth Day to see Benedict in Madrid. 400 at the World Atheist Gathering in Dublin, EAT YOUR HEART OUT ATHEIST CATHOLIC HATER.

It is with the utmost urgency that I write this blog.

A group of atheists have filed a lawsuit to prevent the inclusion of the historic Ground Zero Cross at the 9/11 Memorial & Museum. We have learned from their lawsuit that they, “have suffered, are suffering, and will continue to suffer damages, both physical and emotional, from the existence of the challenged cross.” Atheists have reportedly endured cross-induced, “dyspepsia [upset stomach], symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish.”
Jemima Cole, are you one of those Atheists?

“It’s simply meaning that civil law here on earth is allowed to process, but in the end true guilt or innocence is known only to God.”

Again, this seems like a terrible deferral of responsibility.

Can’t we do a reverse Pascal’s Wager and say ‘OK, God may exist, but we have to act as though *we’re* the ones who determine final guilt or innocence?’. God may get them in the end, but shouldn’t we be getting them, too?

@samilou:
—
“I am fully aware that I’m not going to convince you of the existence of the Lord, but I believe at the last second of your life you will know!”
—
Do you really expect me to change my mind at the last second? You have an evil god governing your life—whether it is YWHW or Jesus. Any god that uses fear to get worshipers will not get my respect.
—
I think you are the one who fears what you might know at the last second of your life—there were no longer be samilou to experience what ever happens next.

@con o sullivan:
If my words don’t bother you, why are you so angry?
—
If we’re going to bring up history, what do you have to say about the Spanish Inquisition and Christian witch hunts in the Middle ages?
—
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn2.htm
—
Don’t be scared to read this site, it is not atheist.

@Adrienne and @Jemima Cole, I am a Catholic, but I would like to thank you both for coming here. Not because I believe some divine revelation will be brought forth to you and you will have some huge conversion, but because you help keep me sharp, and, as you Adrienne seek to expand your own thoughts, so do I, and you help me to do that.

I’m not here to convert you to believers, or say anything negative about you. In fact, I agree that yes we should be angry about the abuse in the Church. However, I also think we need to continue to keep things in perspective (and I hope you don’t see this as me throwing my hands up in the air and saying “Oh well!”):
1) The abuse by priests is terrible and should be dealt with, but I believe we do need to keep in mind innocent until proven guilty. A number of people have come forth with accusations, and the Church has responded, lately, in pulling priests off active ministry. Now I know there have been some cover ups and so on, and that is appalling, but know that we all make mistakes and I believe the Church as a whole is working to correct that and realizing it’s mistakes. Unfortunately, in my opinion, even if the priest is found innocent, they have been left with a stain that cannot seemed to be removed.
2) Yes, the abuse by priests in the Church is terrible. But it is also the most publicized (which could explain an increasing number of accusations as people are beginning to see the Church will pay out), but again, the Church is admitting to it. What about other denomination and religiions, as well as the public areas where this is happening. I don’t think it’s as publicized, nor or these areas coming to admit it.
3) Compared to the number of priests who are committing abuse, there are a greater number faithfully living out their priestly call and serving their parishes greatly, but we do not hear about them. I don’t say this because I want you to focus on them and forget about those who abuse, but merely to keep in mind that just because there are bad apples in a group that you belong to, say a few Athiests who killed and prosecuted Catholics, that does not make the entire batch bad.

Again, I thank you for continuing to dialogue, as that helps us all reach a better understanding. And I hope you find happiness. I believe it is found in Christ and in His Church. I understand and respect your choice to disagree, and I hope you may find happiness however you decide that is.

Peace.

“You have an evil god governing your life”

Again, I don’t think that’s fair. If God was a human acting that way, he would inarguably be evil. But there’s no such thing as moral absolutes, so we can see how gods might act to different moral codes to those we would.

I won’t protest a cross at ground zero I you won’t protest a mosque nearby.

“Jemima Cole, are you one of those Atheists?”

Your mind’s clearly going, sir. You first asked that question on the 11th, I answered the next day.

“Compared to the number of priests who are committing abuse, there are a greater number faithfully living out their priestly call and serving their parishes greatly, but we do not hear about them.”

First of all, thanks for your other comments.

Second ... I think this is a really good point, and one that I think does get lost. I don’t think all priests are involved in the scandal. I do think that the lack of transparency casts suspicion on all priests, and I don’t think that’s fair.

I can see that the Church is doing things to rectify the situation, but there are plenty of places where it’s up to its old tricks. The reason I keep mentioning Cloyne is that it’s not something from the 1950s on some remote island.

Now, I understand why the Vatican can’t just come clean and open up all its files - the limited cases that have made it to the courts have bankrupted dioceses. I understand that damage limitation is a sensible strategy to have. But part of this is personal - you have a group of very, very old men running the Vatican now, and they’ve been there a long time. Old habits die hard, as they say, and their names are going to be on a lot of the incriminating documents.

A changing of the guard, an opening up of the church to more independent scrutiny ... it would show that 90% of the Church, at least, is made up of good men doing good work. Concentrate on that, and not political campaigning. Stop acting like tobacco companies (‘legislative difficulties and culture changes mean we’ve lost the US and Europe, we need to open new markets in Africa and the former communist bloc’). Concentrate on reconnecting with the Catholics who just can’t relate the Church to their lives.

You did not answer why you are so silent on the Child Abuse in the New York Public Schools or the Murder and rape comitted by your fellow Atheists in the Soviet Union.

@ con o sullivan:
—
The Child abuse in NY public schools and the murder and rape committed by atheists in the Soviet Union, and any conspiracy to cover or downplay those crimes are some of the most horrible atrocities in our history. They are examples of the evil that exists in all human kind. There is no punishment on our planet that can match the outrage of what was done to their victims.—are you satisfied?
—
Now, let’s get back to the subject—Just because atheists have committed the same kinds of atrocities as Catholics have done does not make the Catholic crimes any more or less worthy of forgiveness. The Catholic Church professes to lead people to become better human beings and worthy Jesus’ love, so it is no good apology to say it are are no worse than any secular organization. It also suggests that the church is no better, so why should I choose Catholicism over Atheism?
—-

“You did not answer”

Boo hoo.

Adrienne,  I am afraid the 2,000 people murdered by The Inquisition is far out weighted by the numbers murdered by tha Atheist Soviet Regime. that people were murdered in the Inquisition by Catholics was Murder and is inexcusable. on August 21 at 5.10 I reiterated that I abhor Child abuse.

@ con o sullivan:
—
So why is it better to be a Catholic than to be an Atheist?

Ardrienne. I cannot give you an answer, for I would not interfere with your belief. I am happy in my local Catholic Church, I cannot prove there is a God but I believe with the teachings of the Gospel that there is a God and an after life and I am happy with that. I read a sign one time on the wall of a catholic Church which read"The perfect Church for imperfect people”  and that is what my local Church is.

con o sullivan:
—
So now you respect my belief (or non-belief)? I’m glad you are happy with your church, but why did you make such a fuss?
—
I read a sign on a bus that read “You can be good without God” That is the atheism I embrace.
—
I don’t think atheists’ morals or Catholics’ morals are very different, and I know many Catholics who don’t follow the Pope’s decrees as though they were sheep. I also don’t think the Catholic Church, as a public institution, should be exempt from scrutiny because it is a religious institution. The human beings that represent and are responsible for that institution should be held accountable, and the organization should be subject to public law for public crimes. I don’t think that is an attack against Christians, but many Christians take it as such and their responses provoke arguments between Theists and Atheists.

Adrienne, will contact you tomorrow, it is 11.47 at night in Ireland and I am so tired, thanks for a very pleasent and good message

Although some of these points have already been made, they bear repeating.

-

1. Yes, the media does in fact despised the Catholic Church, but if not for the media, many, MANY priests and bishops would STILL be out there molesting and raping children and covering it up. The Church hating media had to embarrass the Church into doing anything.

-

2. Investigators have reported that perhaps as many as half of all reported cases are simply fabricated.

-

3. The incidence of reported cases of abuse is much higher among public school teachers.

-

4. http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/197252/20110812/corey-feldman-pedophilia-hollywood.htm

-

5.  Around 9 out of every 10 cases of abuse was homosexual.

-

6. Over 90% of all cases were pederasty, and not pedophilia.

-

7. Blessed John Paul II’s deliberate decision to “not run a tight ship” as one of his defenders recently wrote, was an embarrassing catastrophe for the Church.

“1. Yes, the media does in fact despised the Catholic Church”

This is flat out false, a bizarre bit of paranoia. The media is not the publicity wing of the Church, but look at, say, the BBC’s bizarrely pro- coverage of a Papal visit to the UK that was met with total indifference by the people. Look at the way Fox News basically allowed O’Reilly to paint a target on the back of Dr Tiller. Even Colbert is a Catholic who is out and proud and frequently has priests as guests.

“Investigators have reported that perhaps as many as half of all reported cases are simply fabricated.”

Yes. This will happen. Investigators have also reported that the Church obstructs their attempts to get to the truth. Think this through: are the Church covering up the fact that actually, no, it’s all fabricated? Is that the evidence they’re hiding?

“The incidence of reported cases of abuse is much higher among public school teachers.”

As discussed ad nausem here. ‘The other boys do it’ is not a legal defence.

If we’re going down this path, though, the vast majority of child abuse
cases involve a family member, not a stranger or authority figure. A child is far more likely to be abused by a father or step-father or uncle than a priest. The least likely group to abuse a stepchild? Lesbian couples. Try reconciling that with Catholic doctrine.

“http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/197252/20110812/corey-feldman-pedophilia-hollywood.htm”

And ditto.

“Around 9 out of every 10 cases of abuse was homosexual.”

False, for several different reasons. The most important of which
is to understand that a man who likes to have sex with underage
boys is not ‘homosexual’. Every study of pedophilia has demonstrated
that virtually every pedophile identifies as heterosexual, many are
married.

Blaming ‘homosexuals’ flies in the face of everything we know about
pedophilia.

“Over 90% of all cases were pederasty, and not pedophilia.”

No.

This is a lie put about by the church that I’m afraid you’ve fallen for.

The standard definition used by mental health professionals is that pedophiles have sex with children under thirteen. The Catholic church decided to make it under ten.

http://mirandaceleste.net/2011/05/24/a-worthless-and-dangerous-report/

‘whereas if they had stuck to the DSM‘s guidelines (age thirteen or younger), most of the priest-abusers could legitimately be called “pedophiles”, as ”[m]ost sexual abuse victims of priests (51 percent) were between the ages of eleven and fourteen, while 27 percent were fifteen to seventeen, 16 percent were eight to ten, and nearly 6 percent were under age seven” (10). In other words, if the researchers had used the DSM‘s guidelines, the percentage would jump from 22% to almost 73%.’

“7. Blessed John Paul II’s deliberate decision to “not run a tight ship” as one of his defenders recently wrote, was an embarrassing catastrophe for the Church.”

We can agree on that. As a point of doctrine, would St John Paul II be kicked out of heaven if new evidence emerged that implicated him, or would his beatification simply be annulled?

Jemima Cole But you are not interested in Child abuse comitted by Public school Teachers are you? and you are not interested in Murder of Catholic and other Christians comitted by the Soviet Atheist Government Soviet Union, and now you are using an item from a blog from a fellow Atheist and Anti Religionist to make a p[oint, and as I wrote and you did not deny it you care little for Child Abuse unless it is comitted by Catholic . I am afraid you seem to have this obsession maybe you got it from reading the lifesof Lenin and Stalin. Of course some of the Media despise the Catholic Church, how come the Ny Times are silent about the abuse in the Public School System under itsnose, wher was Goldtein then. as for John Paul being guilty of something I suppose you would have dragged up from an Anti Cathol troll to support if you could, I am afraid Jemima Cole you are becoming a bit of a joke on this thread, but keep going and amusing us

@Fr. Maximilian:  Rather than continuing to battle over past abuses true or false, what is being done **now** by the church to screen for and admit only psychologically “fit” candidates into the seminaries?  Since our bishops have been silent and you (as a priest) operate from the “inside” help us all out here with what’s going down.

E X P L A N A T I O N

I did not come to convert you
and anyway all the wise sermons have fled from my head
I was stripped of all shine long ago
like a hero in slow motion
I won’t pester you
with what you think of Merton
I won’t jump around during discussion
like a turkey with a red wattle on its nose
I won’t grow handsome like a drake in October
I won’t dictate tears that will confess to everything
I won’t spoon ho?y theology into your ear

I’ll simply sit beside you
and confide my secret
that I, priest
trust God like a child

prist Jan Twardowski
translated by Anna Mioduchowska and Myrna Garanis

Adrienne. I am afraid I am not the gratest on the computer as Jemima Cole has mockingly referred to, this is a Poem written by a Catholic Priest who fough against the brutal during the War. He was much lived by believers and unbelievers, and it sums up my non interference in the beliefs and non beliefs of any person, we have heard enough of mad Preachers of Millitant Christianity, and Millitant Atheism,none of us know what comes after death, but to live a life that that is rooted ind kindness is all we need, someone called Phillip Gray wrote this little piece “At the end if all that can be said of you is that you were king it is enough”, I am afraid I have a long journey before someone can say that about me,

@Fr. Maximilian:  You wrote “7. Blessed John Paul II’s deliberate decision to “not run a tight ship” as one of his defenders recently wrote, was an embarrassing catastrophe for the Church.”  Yours is a true statement.  And like all men we have fallen short of God’s glory.  Clearly I am in the minority of Catholics failing to see the need to diefy this man.  Next, a new group will be started espousing we pray to John Paul II through Mary to finally, finally reach Jesus.  Good greif !

“you are using an item from a blog from a fellow Atheist”

Do you argue with that atheist’s conclusion?

Jemima Cole,
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By your own admission, the vast majority of the cases were 1. against boys, 2, the vast majority of which were NOT prepubescent. That is homosexual pederasty, by definition.
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Mr. Colbert hosts a comedy bit, nothing more. He is not nor does he pretend to be in serious media or in any way a journalist.

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Lector as Mass,
Read this: http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=806&repos=6&subrepos=5&searchid=77717
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The sad fact is that since many of the Bishops (many of whom themselves suffer from homosexual orientation disorder) are desperately trying to pretend that the issue is not one of homosexual attraction to pubescent boys, the problem cannot ever be seriously addressed.

More information on the real issue here:

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http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/critics-say-new-study-misses-real-reasons-for-priest-abuse-crisis/

@con o sullivan
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I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer either, but we don’t have a problem with each other. I have a major problem with the Catholic Church, and Christians in general, because in my country (U.S.A.) they are imposing their warped version of “family values” on to our government policies. It is too much of a possibility that we might end up with Michele Bachmann or Rick Perry as our next president—we were very close to having Sarah Palin as a VP. Religion on this side of the water is getting very oppressive.

Adrienne:  Please list the"warped” values of Michelle Bachmann and then Rick Perry?  It’s a free country.  You are free to vote for whomever you choose.  More specifically, what’s in the Bible that you find so objectionable?

“By your own admission, the vast majority of the cases were 1. against boys, 2, the vast majority of which were NOT prepubescent.”

I didn’t ‘admit’ anything of the sort.

1. No. One study I saw reckoned that priest sexual abuse was about a 60/40 female/male split. [The child abuse scandal isn’t by any means where archbishops and bishops get their action. By far the largest category was priests having relationships with adult women (often married). The second largest category was male priests having sex with each other (US priests have HIV rates four times the national average)].

2. Check the link I posted. The Church decided to redefine ‘prepubescent’ to mean ‘under ten’, not the generally accepted ‘under thirteen’. This dramatically changes the numbers. And there’s little doubt that it represents the Church deliberately and knowingly fiddling the figures. 

“The sad fact is that since many of the Bishops (many of whom themselves suffer from homosexual orientation disorder)”

No, the sad fact is that it’s 2011 and you think homosexuality is a mental disorder. And that you’ve bought into the idea that the Church was infiltrated by Evil Gays who did all the bad things. But let’s not discuss that, try this:

An adult man who has sex with girls under the age of thirteen is taking part in a pedophile act, not a heterosexual one. Agreed?

An adult man who has sex with boys under the age of thirteen is taking part in a pedophile act, not a homosexual one.

See?

I understand the distinction is a tricky one. A man has sex with a male, they’re gay, yes? No. Every study done shows that most men who have sex with boys identify as heterosexual. Many (most, I think) are married.

And even if it’s not the case, the witch-hunt against homosexuals in seminaries is absurd. It’s not the problem. What it is is a convenient scapegoat.

Jemima Cole:  Among the problems in Catholicism is that it is “assumed” all men entering the seminary as candidates for the priesthood have a “calling.”  We know this is untrue, but this fact is ignored and does not enter into the mindset of Bishops.  They need to do a much better job weeding uncalled men out of ministry.  My view is that if a priest does not have a calling to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost as his primary calling, he is in the wrong line of work.

I would not trust the DSM as far as I could throw it. 
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Pedophilia, Minor-Attracted Persons, and the DSM:
Issues and Controversies

http://b4uact.org/science/symp/2011/index.htm

Again, the vast majority of abuse was against pubescent boys, i.e. homosexuality.

The Church has said all along that contraception would lead to abortion in the first trimester, then the second, then the third, and finally infanticide (partial birth abortion), which is nothing other than the cold blooded, barbaric, merciless slaughter of helpless human beings.

Now that the prince of this world has achieved great success in convincing many that men sodomizing other and boys is no different from the God ordained relationship between a man and women, the attack to legitimize sodomy with children has begun which is also something we in the Church have known all along was coming.

And it isn’s just the three great monotheistic faiths that teach that men sodomizing each other is a grave depravity, even Aristotle and Plato said the practice made a man lower than a wild beast.

>I would not trust the DSM as far as I could throw it.<

Well, bully for you. The point’s clear enough - there’s a standard definition: pedophilia is sex with someone under the age of thirteen. The Catholic Church report changes that to under the age of ten. As 51% of cases were with 11-14 year olds, that redefinition affects the conclusion by shifting *most* of the cases from ‘pedophile’ to ‘not pedophile’.

Now, I think it’s pretty obvious that that redefinition was done precisely into conning people into thinking it wasn’t *really* pedophilia. And clearly the trick worked on you.

> The Church has said all along that contraception would lead to abortion in the first trimester, then the second, then the third, and finally infanticide (partial birth abortion), which is nothing other than the cold blooded, barbaric, merciless slaughter of helpless human beings.<

I’ve learned that it’s simply not worth discussing abortion with the sort of Catholic who makes a fuss about it. Most actual Catholic people use contraception and have abortions at the same rate as the general population. But I’m not going to change your mind, you’re just going to quote facts from a parallel universe where condoms are full of holes, need a Masters degree to use properly, are ‘always’ failing and actually spread AIDS instead of preventing it. So, sorry, not playing.

Look up St Brigid of Kildare if you think the Church’s attitude to abortion is exactly the slightly deranged, obsessive one it is today. Then look up ‘quickening’ for when people in Jesus’ time actually thought a baby’s life began. Then find the bit in the Bible which explains that if you attack a woman and she miscarries the man should pay a small extra fine above the going rate for straight assault. Then find the bit where Jesus bangs on about abortion endlessly like an out 0f touch swivel-eyed loony. Then note that if he knew you ‘before’ you formed in the womb, it can’t mean life starts at conception. Then note that Jesus moving in the womb is entirely consistent with the idea of the quickening.

The current Catholic position that places contraception and abortion as some unofficial eleventh commandment dates from the last century, and the political and social reasons it was adopted are entirely transparent, and deeply unpleasant. If you feel the need to witter on, please do, but this isn’t the topic of this thread.

>Now that the prince of this world has achieved great success in convincing many that men sodomizing other and boys is no different from the God ordained relationship between a man and women, the attack to legitimize sodomy with children has begun which is also something we in the Church have known all along was coming.<

Again, there’s just no point engaging with this. Where to start? How about that last point. OK ... let’s accept for sake of argument the insane nonsense that an evil supernatural creature has a secret plan to make us all pedophiles and this is has begun and the Church knew it was coming. Can I suggest that perhaps to take a firm moral lead on it, the best tactic wouldn’t have been to set up an international pedophile protection program, run from the Vatican for many decades. Think ‘Catholics, pedophilia’, I’d suggest that the first thing anyone would think is not ‘yes, they’re the leaders in the fight against child abuse, we should follow their lead’.

> And it isn’s just the three great monotheistic faiths that teach that men sodomizing each other is a grave depravity, even Aristotle and Plato said the practice made a man lower than a wild beast.<

And that’s just flat out wrong. Plato said homosexuality:

“is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce.”

And even if we lived in your mirror world, where Plato actually said the exact opposite ... so what? We’re two and a half thousand years down the line. We don’t believe, as Plato did, that frogs spontaneously generate from mud. Aristotle’s astronomy was beautiful, consistent, infallible Catholic doctrine for 1500 years ... and complete nonsense. These were wise men, still worth reading, but they were not arbiters of universal, eternal truths.

Plato on Homosexuality:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/27/opinion/l-plato-on-homosexuality-238493.html

I take it that, like Jesus and Plato, you’re also a staunch defender of slavery? Plato found slavery to be ‘natural’. To their credit, the Catholic Church, very early on, realized Jesus was wrong on that one. 

Just forget the straight-to-video crazy supernatural conspiracy theory about the devil, look at the things that human beings do. There’s no secret plot to make child abuse more acceptable. Just the opposite. The reason the Church got into trouble is precisely because they were still doing things the old fashioned way, when society had moved on and become *less* tolerant of adults abusing power relationships with children.

Your theory simply doesn’t match what we observe.

“They need to do a much better job weeding uncalled men out of ministry.”

I think this is very sensible, but I don’t think it’s the whole answer.

There’s already a real recruiting crisis for priests, and the witch hunt against homosexuals is only going to cut down the talent pool. There have been discussions about this in other threads of Jennifer’s, and it’s obvious that they’re plugging the gaps with non-English speaking clergy, they’re delaying retirements so priests are getting older and dottier, they’re closing churches left, right and center. In a climate where everyone wants a job, no one wants to be a Catholic priest.

Priesthood is not the only vocation. Teaching, nursing, social work ... these are all vocations, too. Perhaps the Church needs to look at those professions to see what’s being done there.

But the ‘calling’ thing is not the only issue. Again, I have to return to Bishop Magee. He was private secretary to the Pope, master of ceremonies at the Vatican. It’s very possible that John Paul II knew him as well as he knew any other human being. And he’s not some layabout who became a priest because he didn’t want to work at a supermarket. But he is also accused, with a vast amount of supporting evidence of being a child abuser who sheltered other child abusers, and has been sheltered in turn.

There is, by all accounts, a purge of seminaries going on. But the problem was never there. The problem was with management. And that management is still there, trading on affection for John Paul II that’s become a weird personality cult that would make the Moonies blush, the same men pulling the same tricks, just older and grumpier.

The arch-conservative regime John Paul II encouraged has basically uncoupled from the vast majority of people who call (or called) themselves Catholics. There are more ex-Catholics in the US now than Catholics, and it becomes a vicious circle - you end up left with a rump of ever more extreme defenders of ever more extreme stances. Most Catholics, hearing a Vatican spokesman saying that condoms have holes in them that let AIDS through, just go ‘what an idiot’, not ‘he speaks with authority’. The Church just feels left behind on issues like female equality and homosexuality. It looks like it’s actively part of the problem with AIDS and child abuse.

And I do think this is a shame, I genuinely do. There are inequalities in the world, the Catholic Church does offer a longer, more international view. They have consistently encouraged thinking, intellectualism and reason (even if they operate from many, I understand, false premises). They have the opportunity to really transform the Third World, and the best and brightest priests come from there, now. But ... no. While the Catholic people are diverse and tolerant, the priesthood is the same white, entitled, self-interested, older generation spouting the same intolerant right wing nonsense that you see with the Tea Party. It’s not ‘for’ things, it’s only ‘against’ them. 

There’s a better Catholic Church in there, somewhere. It’s being strangled by the Ratzinger generation.

So now you concede the point that Plato condemned men sodomizing each other after explicitly denying that he had done any such thing. I’ll pray for you. And if morality is subjective, as you seem to think, then one need not be surprised that like Pilate, the question “What is truth?” is for you befuddling.

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As for the Church and women’s equality, it simply recognizes it as the marxist nonsense that it is the idea that equality means mimicking a man. There was an interesting story just this summer about how some 109 million abortions have taken place for the sole reason that the unborn child was a girl. The abortion supporters were concerned that this barbaric slaughter or girls might actually, since more women support legal abortion, result in more pro-life victories in the long run, i.e. “If we don’t stop killing unborn girls, the right to kill unborn girls might be increasingly in jeopardy.”

“So now you concede the point that Plato condemned men sodomizing each other after explicitly denying that he had done any such thing.”

No, I say it just doesn’t matter at all, and is completely irrelevant to a discussion about child abuse. The problem isn’t what Plato said, it’s what Magee (et al) did. Yes, if you fish around in any large body of work long enough, you can mine a quote that seems to support any view.

Except, ironically, ‘Jesus said something about abortion’.

There’s a simple fact here: if you think homosexuality and pedophilia are synonyms, you’re wrong. If you think one ‘leads to’ the other, you’re wrong. If you think that society is more tolerant of child abuse now than it was, you’re wrong.

“I’ll pray for you.”

Please don’t. No flowers at the funeral. Donate a can of something to a local foodbank.

“And if morality is subjective, as you seem to think, then one need not be surprised that like Pilate, the question “What is truth?” is for you befuddling.”

I don’t find it particularly befuddling. Befuddlement only happens when you have a small, rigid idea of truth and can’t get the real world to fit into it.

If there’s an ‘eternal truth’ about the ‘nature’ of slavery in the Bible, it’s that slavery is natural, masters shouldn’t be cruel, but even if they are slaves shouldn’t moan. There’s not a single anti-slavery sentiment in the Bible. On the contrary, we’re encouraged to see ourselves as slaves and God as our master. A thousand years ago, the Catholic Church dumped that idea as horrible.

“As for the Church and women’s equality, it simply recognizes it as the marxist nonsense that it is the idea that equality means mimicking a man.”

What rubbish. Just think about what you’re saying. Women want to have some control over when they have children so that they can mimic men? Because, what, men keep hoarding all the abortion fun for themselves?

Again, it’s this weird conspiracy theory. Women want abortions because they’re all evil Marxists out to steal your precious bodily fluids. And again, it’s not relevant to this thread.

The Catholic Church is not some besieged, persecuted little organization. The child abuse problem stems precisely from the fact that it’s too large, not subject to enough checks, has too much power to get the authorities to look the other way. And it was not evil Marxist atheist satanist feminists storming the barricades, this was entirely Catholics abusing other Catholics.

Jemima Cole wrote:  “While the Catholic people are diverse and tolerant, the priesthood is the same white, entitled, self-interested, older generation spouting the same intolerant right wing nonsense that you see with the Tea Party. It’s not ‘for’ things, it’s only ‘against’ them.”  ..........I will not not address the TEA Party analogy because that will take too long.  However, the # of “white” old school priests and bishops are in serious rapid decline.  Now the parishes are being filled with imported foreign born priests from India, Vietnam and South Africa creating a disconnect between some parishes and their clergy (to say nothing of being hard to understand them due to their accent).  One predominantly Vietnamese parish was up in arms over the appointment of an Hispanic pastor by a local bishop.  By the same, what does a predominantly Hispanic parish have in common “culturally speaking” with two recent priests from India assigned to the same parish?  Either the Bishop is just plain out of touch or he has no choice in his assignments.  You are correct that disaffected Catholics are growing in number.

“However, the # of “white” old school priests and bishops are in serious rapid decline.”

Handled properly, that could mean the Church will face a constructive and imaginative future. At the moment, though, if you look at any recent major gathering of archbishops (say at the last Pope’s funeral) and it’s striking how the management level is still old white guys.

Some of that is natural enough, a function of promotion based on seniority. But the Pope is 84, he’s surrounded by people of that generation. If you think about that in political terms, he’s of George Bush Snr’s generation, he’s thirty or even forty years older than most current heads of government. I’m not saying this means he has nothing to say, but it does have implications for how he sees the world. It does represent another disconnect. He would have been taught by Victorians.

This is relevant to the child abuse thing because ... well, teachers were expected to deliver corporal punishment. The whole way of raising children has changed, and not simply because of fashion.

Jemima Cole, You are getting a bit of a joke now, tell us where   is evidence that their is more ex Catholic than Catholics in America, and you are on about St Brigid Of Kildare , there is nop evidence that St Brigid ever existed, and of course we all know about “EVIL MARXISTS, they were the poeple who murdered Catholics, but keep going you are giving me a great laugh, but then of course your condone these acts by your fellow Atheists. and why have not public schools in the US cleaned up their act?

“Women want to have some control over when they have children so that they can mimic men?”
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Ah, but women do in fact have control as to when they have children. What some want however is Church approval of them engaging in procreative activity while using means to make themselves for all intents and purposes unnaturally sterile.

“where   is evidence that their is more ex Catholic than Catholics in America”

Well, a quick search and I found this in a Marxist-Leninist newspaper written by well known haters of all things Catholic that says ‘for every one member the church adds, it loses four’.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/americas-religious-marketplace-real-catholic-problem-new-sales

The definition of what makes a Catholic is tricky. The Church defines anyone who was baptized as Catholic (*cough*, Hitler), but surveys (such as http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html) consistently show that only about one in five *say* they attend Mass every week.

“, and you are on about St Brigid Of Kildare , there is nop evidence that St Brigid ever existed”

Oh, the irony of being lectured on only believing things there’s evidence for by a Catholic. Brigid’s in the Catholic Encyclopedia, she survived the purge of fictional/mythical saints that got rid of St Christopher, there are near-contemporary accounts of her life.

She made a pregnant woman not pregnant, and got canonized for the miracle. But, of course, Catholics have *always* been taught that life begins at conception, because Jesus said so in ... er ... the Bible. Somewhere. He must have.

“What some want however is Church approval of them engaging in procreative activity while using means to make themselves for all intents and purposes unnaturally sterile.”

Again, off topic.

But Jennifer’s next post is about how it’s bad that if you have fertility treatment that results in eight fetuses that doctors recommend aborting some of them. But how can having *more* babies make you ‘unnaturally sterile’? It’s ‘unnaturally fertile’, in that case, surely?

And how come one form of contraception is OK, Natural Family Planning, but the others aren’t?

Look, Catholic doctrine on this comes from a point when people thought babies happened at random. The same era people thought cholera came from moral fecklessness, not dirty water. We have the capability to create and saves lives in ways not dreamed of even a few decades ago. We understand fertility in a way that we simply didn’t back in the day.

Catholicism abandoned the idea that the harvest was based solely on God’s whims. For some reason, it can’t do the same for what happens in a womb.

I don’t seek ‘church approval’.  If you choose to live differently, choose that. Doesn’t bother me. Doesn’t even bother me if the law protects your silliest beliefs - among consenting adults, anyway. What I seek is a Church I have nothing to do with keeping the hell away from my sex life, thanks.

Many people call themselves Catholic—only because they “identify” as Catholic from their childhood.  They are not going to say they are Protestant since Catholic is all they know.  Surveys also reveal a signfificant # haven’t stepped inside church in 10, 20 or 30 years.  Nancy Pelosi says she is Catholic as does VP Biden, Dick Durbin, Gov Cuomo, Patrick Leahy and all the Kennedy’s.  Do their voting records on moral, biblical issues reflect Catholic teaching and what the Bible says?  No.  Are they really Catholic?  What is a “Catholic” —these days?  Do all Catholic clergy support, live and vote along biblical principles?

“Are they really Catholic?  What is a “Catholic” —these days?  Do all Catholic clergy support, live and vote along biblical principles?”

All interesting questions. My point was that the Church fiddles the figures - *they* count those people, because they were baptized, then says ‘and there are a gajillion Catholics in the USA’.

Personally, I’d always try to lowball the figure. How many people regularly alter their behavior because of religion. How many pray, go to church, pay tithes or whatever.

But the idea there are Catholics and then there are Real Catholics seems utterly corrosive to me, a recipe for a spiral of extremism and irrelevance. And I appreciate the Church is never going to adopt an ‘anything goes’ policy, but I’d say it does need to look at why so many people reject it. And, again, Jennifer’s got a ‘man bites dog’ column here. She embraced the Church for reasons many, many more people abandoned it. Not even the abuse per se, but the sheer reality denying out of touchness and heavy handed complacency it showed.

Lector at mass, Did you not lecture me some time ago about angaging with an Atheist, why are you engaging with the Catholic Hater Jemima Cole

Ardrienne, Do you honestly expect me to lecture you about your own country , when here in Ireland we elected a corrupt shower   of gangsters in 1997 and kept electing the same bunch untill 2011 when we kicked them out after they banrupted the country. I read a lot about about the USA and since Presidant Obams’a mothers family came from Ireland and since my God Sons Mother is from the same part of Kenys’a as the President’s Father I suppose I am some sort of Democrat. Bachman and Parry bare not Catholics, so it does not concern me so much, but America is a democracy and as I say I would not dare interfere with the democratic process of your country. I thought Mit Romney was doing well in polla

Jemima Cole. Frankly no one cares about about your sex life, and frankly you should be getting worried about your self with your obsession with Catholics, How many members are in Atheist America, I presume they have far more members than the Catholic Church, and I repeat a figure for you WORLD ATHEIST COPNGRESS IN DUBLIN 4000 PEOPLE . CATHOLIC WORLY YOUTH DAY IN MADRID 1.5 MILLION, now answer that

“Catholic doctrine on this comes from a point when people thought babies happened at random.”

Not only is this entirely false, but you know full well it that it is. The elevating of your banal and exhausted ideology into a deity has instilled in you an intrinsic aversion to truth, and also to the Truth.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of cases were homosexuals abusing and raping pubescent boys.

“I appreciate the Church is never going to adopt an ‘anything goes’ policy, but I’d say it does need to look at why so many people reject it.”

It has, and the simple and eternal answer comes for Truth and Love itself,  “If they hate me, they will hate you.”

“The fact of the matter is”

No, the fact of the matter is that you seem to think that calling an eleven year old a ‘pubescent’ instead of what he is, a ‘child’, is some sort of mitigation. The issue is not how we label the demographic group of half the victims, it’s that half the victims of priest abuse were 11-14.

There’s no value in continuing this discussion. I hope those who have or have had eleven year old children look at what Fr Maxmillian’s position and see that wherever it is he’s standing, it’s not the moral high ground.

The “actual” fact of the matter is ........ that regardless of all these comments, this blog author (Jennifer Fulwiler) most likely remains convinced,—-at least in her own world,—- that the scandals have “increased” her faith.  Her statement has no foundation of logic (or even makes common sense from a Christian perspective) since her faith should be in Christ and not in men who comprise and run the institutional church.  When you place all your faith in men you will always have failures and disappointments including scandals.  As Paul says in Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

Here is even more information:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/267600/priests-abuse-and-meltdown-culture-george-weigel
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

Both are worth a read. The first link summarizes the report, which is the second link.

Me, I think a lot of the misperception of the degree to which priests have been involved in sex scandals is based on a variety of things.

One primary factor is anti-Catholicism. Which was pretty open for a while, but is still one of the prejudices that people can get away with socially. Which is too bad. (If you think twice before saying something stereotypical about some minority, maybe you should also think twice before parroting some idiotic stereotype about Catholics.) 

Then in our prurient contemporary times, a lot of people just thing the idea of celibacy is weird so they figure that priests MUST be doing SOMETHING.

And another factor is that there are just a LOT of Catholic priests. I think the numbers are roughly thus: # of Catholic Priest in the US = # of ALL other clergy (Protestant, Jewish, etc.) Which means even if the rate of sexual predation is the same, you will hear more about it with Catholic priests.

Lee, I am not persuaded that “one primary factor is anti-Catholicism.”  The apostles did not present themselves as anything other than “men” who followed and evangelized Jesus, the Christ.  The apostles did not parade in fancy robes as did the Pharisees nor hold their hands out as our Bishops do so Catholics can kiss their ring.  What has emerged over the centuries, however, and what the church has basked in and enjoyed are synonyms and titles elevating mere “men” to positions non corporeal.  For example, “alter Christi” (other Christs), “Representatives of God,” “Ambassadors of Christ,” “Next to Christ,”  Holy Men of God,” “Vicar of Christ on Earth” and finally, “Holy Father.”  How can mere men live up to such self-proclaimed (and prideful I might add) titles?  When you live in glass houses ...  When you elevate your position and titles to such lofty stratoshpheric heights, one’s fall and embarrassment is going to be far greater than mere men falling.  This is why the microscope has been so great.  Will the church clergy now portray themselves in much more humble light?—that is the question. Proverbs 16 says:  “Pride goeth before the fall.”  Seems that passage was omitted from the seminary curriculum.

indeed the church has suffered but this is satan’s target.stan always attacks good poepl.look,even in the bible david messed up with uriah’s wife yet he was God’s chosen king.satan is also afraid of the one and the only true church-the catholic church.this is why the media also wants to put the church down but please catholics,don’t be afraid.God is at work and the church has to pass through these problems only by your prayers for both our priests and ourselves.Do you pray for our priests? mugagga emilio

God this is a lightening rod of clarity, in a time of beleagured trauma whithin the one true and apostolic church of Christ. Keep on keeping on girlfriend and bring more manna for the Soul and mind.

Your link above is broken (the one that is about 2 percent of priests).  The CL article is now here http://www.catholicleague.org/sexual-abuse-in-social-context-clergy-and-other-professionals-2/

Thank you Jennifer for your humility, for it was God who implant it in your heart, Only a humble heart will follow the Truth who is Jesus Christ and His Church. He never intended to have divisions on what He created. The creature trying to take the place of God.
Certainly, those other brothers and sisters -children of the same God- are in “religious” business, not for the love of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but for MONEY.
This is a challenge for us, Catholics, if we love, as we must, our protestan brethren, to pray without ceasing. For Jesus has entrusted us with the great responsibility -to be His disciples to work alone Him in His Plan of Salvation. We see they are seeking the Truth in their heart, let us help them.
The protestan immediately react by saying Jesus died once and for all and Jesus alone saved the world. True, however, in virtue of our baptism, we become His disciples united to Him to continue the work of redemption.
May God richly bless you

Thank you for this insight. I can send this to someone who really needs enlightenment. God bless you and continue your work.

Your insight is a grace from God and I don’t think anyone could have written it better. Thank you.