When I read stories like this one from St. Louis this week, I am conflicted:
Gay member of Catholic nonprofit told he cannot be president because he’s gay
I am actually gratified to see Catholic teaching articulated in a way that most people can understand. I am also happy to see that, even when it is sure to be an unpopular, uncomfortable decision, there are still some Catholic organizations refusing to embrace public scandal by accepting prominent members who are living in ways that contradict Church teaching.
But then too, I recognize that the gay rights crowd now has a new “victim” to rally around.
Jeffrey Goldone, who has been a vice president on the Society of St. Vincent de Paul of St. Louis board of directors for five years, was nominated for president in May. He accepted the nomination but was dropped from the running several weeks later.
“I was told that I could not run for president because my living relationship goes against Catholic moral teaching,” which could bring ‘shame and embarrassment” to the society, Goldone wrote in a Aug. 2 letter addressed to “fellow Vincentians.”
Goldone has been in a relationship with his partner for 20 years. “We are truly blessed by God to have each other and to have Jesus Christ in our lives. How could we be the source of ‘shame and embarrassment?’ ” he wrote.
Someone who accepts and understands Catholic teaching on homosexuality will not be surprised or offended to learn of the St. Vincent de Paul decision, but most people in today’s American culture, who have been brought up on a steady diet of “tolerance,” “acceptance,” and “non-judgmentalism” will find this decision very difficult to understand. And this is why I was glad to see that St. Louis Archbishop Robert Carlson and others speaking on behalf of St. Vincent de Paul were was both kind and clear-minded on the matter:
Goldone took his concerns to Carlson and met with him. Ronald Guz, the outgoing board president, said the organization didn’t make the decision, but rather “the Catholic church did” in its teachings. The group’s executive director, Zip Rzeppa, wrote in an e-mail: “We serve all people without discrimination. And please note we are not discriminating against Jeff Goldone, a man who has done much good. He disqualified himself for the position of president by choosing to live a lifestyle of illicit sexual union, which falls outside the teachings of the Catholic Church, and outside the qualifications of the Society’s international Rule.”
Rzeppa added that the vetting process is different for president because the position holds so much authority, like the power to appoint other board members. Carlson, in a statement to the Post-Dispatch, said: “The Society of St. Vincent de Paul has a regulation that members running for president live a life according to church teaching. I clarified what church teaching is in the matter of homosexuality.” The catechism of the Roman Catholic Church labels homosexual acts as “acts of grave depravity” and “intrinsically disordered” because they “close the sexual act to the gift of life.”
An important distinction to make here is that Goldone has not been deemed ineligible for the presidency because of his homosexuality. He has been refused the opportunity to run for the presidency because of his lifestyle—one that stands in direct and public contradiction to Catholic teaching. The same rules would apply to those engaged in premarital co-habitation or any other “public” lifestyle that runs in such serious contradiction to Catholicism.
It’s unfortunate that this point seems lost on Goldone, but I am hopeful that Archbishop Carlson’s and others’ words will help to clarify the matter in the minds and hearts of many.
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In no way is this discrimination against a gay man. Those in position of “authority” should not be a source of scandal. Gay or straight, the Catholic Church has rules - starting back with the 10 commandments, thou shalt not commit adultery.
Why does the headline contradict the story?
@Joe G., Good point. I changed it.
Thanks for sharing Danielle!
Why was he the “vice president on the Society of St. Vincent de Paul of St. Louis board of directors for five years” to begin with? I hope this is a step towards ensuring true practicing Catholics are working in all official Catholic organizations. Now, a practicing Catholic does not have to be perfect, of course. That’s why we’re Catholic. However, this would be no different than any other Catholic in an illicit marriage being told they couldn’t be president. Or, a Catholic who is using artificial contraceptive methods and claiming it was ok. It’s not because he is gay; it is because he is choosing to persist in sin and claiming publicly what he is doing is “good.”
As a celibate homosexual in the Church, I am happy to see the group stand up for itself. I hope that if the next president (God forbid) strays from Catholic moral teaching in any way, that he too will be treated with the same swiftness. Peace!
The Vice President, if he told his co-workers he was living in a homosexual lifestyle rather has written this news article himself, way back when he first acquired this office.
Then, just NOW, the organization is recognizing that….oh, oh…..
There should have been clues all along his serving as Vice President that stated his ‘lifestyle’. And he should have been offered the role as a contributor to the organization or an advisor vs. an elected position.
Patricia from St. Louis, MO
This issue for me concerning this matter is not the Church’s Teaching, I understand it. However, to say that this individual is completely at fault is also disingenuous. Apparently over the years he had been embraced by this charitable organization even when it was known that he lives in a gay relationship. The organizations embrace of him up to this led to a level of expectation that the Church’s Teaching was not applicable to him because of all the good he has done. The question in this matter is who is really at fault?
This should be a teaching moment for gays and lesbians. shape up or ship out.Others might be included as those for abortion, or those for embryonic stem cell research.Those who claim to be Catholic, be Catholic.
Good for the archbishop. Now this is shocking to him because it’s so rare for many in the Church to actually stand up and speak the truth these days. Which is why this man has been confirmed in his sin for so long. He is right to be confused. Now if only the USCCB, many archioceses, and “Catholic” universities could practice the same we would not be in half the mess he are in.
On the contrary this should be a teaching moment for you. What is taught is not promoted in house. That needs to be addressed. Questions need to be asked why, and how best to address the situation. Cursing the darkness is certainly a answer, but such an answer will not address our corporate hypocrisy in this matter. Catholics need to promote what they practice not just proclaim it.
Recently in the Archdiocese of Chicago Cardinal Francis George was given the opportunity to address the “Courage” Convention and he turned it down. Instead he sent a letter. While just blocks north at Our Lady of Mt. Carmel a weekly mass is said for the gay Catholics which. Why does he have two separate ministry one for AGLO and the other for “Courage”? Those in attendance are known to be mainly gay couples. I might add the Cardinal has said mass for this group.
Need I remind you that the Cardinal is the current president of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. We hear the Cardinal speak out once in a while against Gay Marriage as president of the USCCB, but on a local level he is silent on the matter. Do I need to remind you of the Fr. Pfleger situation with the Cardinal given him an award.
So what is going on? Perhaps we need to pray, observe, and act in a way that reflects the reality of our Church. Hypocrisy is alive and well, and this does not exclude our bishops.
This is a very complex situation. We can point the finger all we want, but there appears to be a lack of integrity in promoting the Church’s Teaching at all levels of the Church. Obviously gay Catholics are involved at all levels of the Church, and the message does not appear to be reaching them, why is that.
I can think of a better title for this story “A Practicing Homosexual is Concerned with Running Charitable Organizations more than His Eternal Salvation”
I understand it’s a bit long, but it definitely works better than the present one.
et al,
I want to thank you for your true witness brother (sister?). Please remain strong in our Lord and he will “give” you “within ” His “temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters” (Isaiah 56:5).
In Christ,
K.
If this man was living with a woman, the public scandal issue would be obvious. As he is in a sexual relationship outside of marriage, he is living in sin. The Church needs to stop winking at heterosexual sin.
Two thoughts: Does the Society assume that Goldone is living “in sin” or did they ask him? If they inquired about Goldone’s private sex life to determine that he is not living according to Church teachings, do they make similar inquiries of all other Board members? Do they ask about divorced/remarried persons if their first marriage was properly annulled? Do they ask single persons if they engage in sexual activities, either with others or alone? Do they ask married persons if the practice contraception? If not, what the are doing is Goldone is rank discrimination by applying a different moral standard to him than all others. That is immoral and sinful. But I don’t suppose the Archbishop discussed that with the Society, did he.
The Church teachings are very clear cut, it’s not a sin to be SSA (same sex attracted), but you cannot openly go against the Church’s specified teachings no matter how loving and charitable you might be.
Read this recent blog from the Archdiocese of Washington about those incapable of marriage because they were ‘born that way’:
http://blog.adw.org/2010/08/some-are-incapable-of-marriage-because-they-were-born-so/
(to Kathleen) I doubt seriously the St Vincent dePaul Society would have handed the presidency to a guy who was openly living with his girlfriend either; that is also still against the rules no matter what the media tries to feed us))
We are losing the battle because of insensitivity to the difference between being homosexual and acting homosexual. Why doesn’t the headline reflect this?
Quote:
An important distinction to make here is that Goldone has not been deemed ineligible for the presidency because of his homosexuality. He has been refused the opportunity to run for the presidency because of his lifestyle—one that stands in direct and public contradiction to Catholic teaching.
Unquote
Noting Joe G’s comment and the author’s response, the headline I received and the leadin statement is “Gay member of Catholic nonprofit told he cannot be president because he’s gay”
Unless he has so stated, how do you know he is living “in sin?” God loves homosexuals as much as He loves heterosexuals. Can a guy live with another guy and not act on his sexual inclinations? You bet. Heterosexual priests do it all the time.
I agree that anyone who is representing the Church or a church organization and is living in sin should not take the first place. However in this case no one is certain that this man is living in sin: judge not.
@Fr. Andre St Germain
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the only time we are expected to explicitly state to anyone that we are “living in sin” is reserved for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (which may include an apology to our brothers and sisters whom we have offended as a matter of penance). As for Mr. Goldone, the first block of text (quoting Mr. Goldone) which Danielle italicized leads us to conclude that Mr. Goldone has publicly and implicitly stated his continued practice of a homosexual lifestyle. From this we can, in some sense, rightfully judge (discern) that his lifestyle does contradict the teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thus he can be called to repentance and utilize the Sacrament of Reconciliation lest he continue living in sin.
Is Jesus about exclusion?
Who you get in bed with is a CHOICE. Many people choose abstinence every day. Some choose monogamous partners. Some choose perverted sex. Some choose sex with minors, dogs, horses, old women/men… BUT IT’S A CHOICE! SO, don’t feel too bad. This particular lifestyle choice disgusts many, is seen as unnatural, is associated heavily with disease transmission.
Judy,
Jesus is about repentance and reconciliation, not about “sinning in your face and there’s nothing you can do about it”
If you don’t repent, likewise you shall all perish Luke 13:3,5
Look at some of the statements being posted by some on this board, and is it any wonder the Church is losing the Gay Marriage debate in the public square.
The situation in St. Louis re: St. Vincent DePaul is a sympton of the ambiguity of what the Church Teaches on the homosexual person in proclamation and action. The Teaching should be developed further to harness clearness.
If we cannot move beyond our judgemental frame you will be unable to engage in a reasonable dialogue with a secular word on our beliefs on this matter.
Because of our fallen nature, we all fight lust - whether married or single. Acting on that lust enslaves us - whether married or single. The Church clearly teaches the “marital act” should be exactly that - including procreative. Any performance that is not part of a licit marriage which includes the possibility of procreativity - is simply wrong. Those that engage in such acts are enslaving themselves - and the Church never stands by with disinterest when any of us enslaves ourselves.
Wow! If the Church applies the “lifestyle” criterion in an evenhanded and uniform manner to all directors/officers/employees of Catholic-related organizations then a lot of us are going to be out of work.
I think the essence of the “lifestyle criterion” is whether scandal is being given. Obviously we are all sinners and those sins are a matter between each one of us and our confessor… until we flaunt those sins and give scandal and then it becomes a concern for the community. It is this distinction that makes warnings of witch hunts such an absurdity.
I get it. The applicability of the “lifestyle” criterion is a matter of pay-grade.
JMJ Mr. Goldtone was not allowed to be named President because he was living in a Homosexual relationship how did he become Vice President while Living in that same relationship,also why was he in the organization of St. Vincent’s de Paul at all. After all 20 years living with another man Members,etc. of the said organization Had to know he Was Vice President for a few years had to be a member of St. Pau’s a number of years. Now someone speaks,What about all the years past. Some Wrong in the Org. of St. Pauls. Respectfully with Love,Joseph J. Pippet
How is it that Goldtone who was catholic and active in the Society does not know that homosexual acts are sinful ? Does it mean that he is blind to the teachings of Jesus and His Church? According to Church,he is a public sinner. Everybody is a sinner,but when one lives in sin with a conscience that it is not sinful to live against the teachings of the Church in public ,he/she is scandal. Let us pray that Goldtone may be blessed with wisdom to realise that he lives in sin and to abandon the lifestyle ,repent and reconcile with Christ.
Shame on Catholics who discriminate against public lifestyles -which in actuality are private -the details of which are known only to the ‘sinners’ themselves. The many Catholics who live a heterosexual lifestyle with partners other than their legal/licit wives are exempted from this judgement. Why so?
“Can a guy live with another guy and not act on his sexual inclinations? You bet. Heterosexual priests do it all the time.”
But as far as I know those priests are not sharing the same bed.
I would like to point out too, that if we were discussing an unmarried man and woman sharing a bed, that too would be considered a scandal.
Yes, men can be roommates. Men and women can be roommates (although I do believe it is discouraged.) But we are not talking here about roommmates, but an actual admitted relationship.
I don’t know why it still surprises me that attitudes against Gay member of the church is still one of undisgusied hatered. If the ruling had been because he was living in a relationship that was outside the bounds of acceptible marriage in the church that would have been one thing, but that wasn’t the case here it was simply because he was gay.
My understanding from various Priests in the church say that as long as one is maintaining their chasitity regardless of where they fall on the fence there is NO DIFFERENCE. It is the same for Straight people. if you ar liveing ouside the bounds of marriage with someone and having a phyiscal relationship IT IS WRONG PERIOD STRAIGHT GAY NO MATTER
When will you all stop throwing stones and clean up your own act?
Would it be clearer if the person was an abortionist, or a fetal stem cell researcher, or operated strip bar? All legal activities, but all are against church doctrine.
If you are Gay then you are living in sin and will not repent. I am sure you have read enough bible stories to understand what happens to those who do not repent of their sins. It is one thing to have a sinner working in church organizations. It is quite another to have someone who claims to be Catholic but will not repent and in fact desires to perpetuate the sin by himself/herself and with others. Being gay is a choice that you make. There is absolutely no other reason to be gay. A sin is a sin and the only way out of sin is reconciliation with the promise to “sin no more”. One who will not repent is doomed to eternity in HELL…...
Once again the archbishop uses his crosier like a club.
Lisa, last time I checked, the Bishop takes a vow to use his crosier as a “rod” (Psalm 23:4), a preferable simile than the one you used “as a club” which really notes your rebellious attitude towards Church authority. Practicing homosexuality is a condemned mortal sin and if you are living in sin then you should be seeking your salvation by repenting, and not meddling in charitable affairs. Lukewarmness and heresy within the Church is what renders our Church weak today, but that’s okay, by God’s grace, all that is going to be cleansed and sanitized.
K.
Church authority should not go unquestioned. The hierarchy is composed of fallible human beings. The church’s refusal to subject itslef to self-examination, led to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. Its inability to fully grasp it loss of moral authority due to is wholly inadequate response to the scandal of pediophile priests, its embarce of bishops who deny the Holocaust, etc, is a sign that it has not taken that 16th century lesson to heart.
Once the Church fully addresses its pediophilia problem—then we can take its judgment on other issues seriously. As long as pediophile priests and the bishops who covered for them still exercise the right confer sacraments, the Church has no right to condmen anyone living in a faithful committed relationship.
@Lisa
“faithful committed relationships”??? a killer may just convince you that he had every right to carry on his murder if we live by your logic here.
“Reformers” and sinners can sing and dance all they want, if they don’t repent and practice the sacraments in a deserving manner, then their eternal salvation is a loss.
It’s a good thing that the sacraments do not depend on the priest’s or bishop’s holiness. Otherwise, our salvation would be dependent on human beings. St Augustine dealt with that one long time ago. And Church authority is not fallible. Please read Mathew 16:16-19 among other many texts.
Sorry, Church authority is fallible—becaue it is composed of human beings. No member of the hierarchy is God. And only God is infallible. Those who want to convince you otherwaise are only interested in power and privilege and not the work of God,
Alternative heading: <em>Jeffrey Goldone questions Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality<em>
Church authority (Magisterium: Pope in communion with the bishops) is not fallible. If it was, then everything we know of Christianity would be uncertain and may very well be flawed too. It is the Magisterium that gave us the Trinitarian dogma, divinity of Christ, Original Sin to name a few essential precepts upon which Christianity is built. It’s clear that I’m speaking to a non-Catholic (it would of course be a worse tragedy if you actually labeled yourself a Catholic). A quick read for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_cathedra#Ex_cathedra
In the area of Faith and Morals, yes the Catholic Church is infallible and the Holy father or Pope speaks for the Church. Not my words; they come from the group upon which I pledge my life! Be a saint, what else is there! Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Kaisar, I have 16 yrs of Catholic education including a BA in Roman Catholic Theology from a Roman Catholic College. Evrything we know about Christianity does not reside in the Catholic church. Everything we know about Christianity we know from Jesus—who of course was an observant Jew.
Human beings, including the Pope and bishops. are fallible human beings. Only God is infallible. People who tell you they are infallible are delusional. And anyone who believes that another human being is infallible may be committing idolatry.
Go to Catholic League and Religious and Civil Rights and its statements after LOOOONNNNNGGGG research into the priest sexual scandal. It was a horrible scandal The issue is homosexuality…..the research data backs up this fact. The media do not want to say it was a homosexual issue as they do not want to embarrass the homosexuals who read their papers.
The issue is not pedaphilia…is not.
The Assumption Feast which we celebrated last Sunday makes certain that the Blessed Virgin Mary was HOLY. The Immaculate COnception of the 1800’s and the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, pronounced in 1950 by the Holy Father are what Catholics believe. Whether one has a doctorate or is home schooled on Catholic belief, these are two issues all Catholics MUST believe to be called Catholic. These are NOT my words; they come from my father, the Pope.
If you are Catholic, forget Nancy Pelosi and other so-called Catholics; they are not Catholic…they are CINOs (Catholic in name only, we called them when I lived in California)
More on the Catholic League…....who claim that the USA public schools have far, far more sexual abuse going on with children than the Catholic Church ever had.
Pedophilia is a different issue than homosexuality. The issue with pedophile priest is not homosexuality. The problem is sexual immaturity fostered by the ways priestly formation used to happen and the way it still may occur. The priests who abused children were men who were stuck at at the same level of sexual maturity as the children they preyed upon.
Sexually mature and healthy adults—gay or straight do not prey upon children.
The issue is that the people the Catholic priests were accused of sexually abusing were NOT children….the research shows this….were NOT children….they were young men about to enter their teens and/or teens….the research shows this…..the word pedophilia is not used except in a very few cases. So the issue IS homosexuality. Please see the Catholic League website for the facts.
My thanks to you for bringing up this issue and many people are very misguided by the media. Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Bravo for the St. Vincent de Paul Society! Their decision for Catholic truth is not politically correct, and will not sit well with secular society and progressive Catholic circles. Our Lord, however, was not politically correct. If He had been PC there would be no Good Friday.
We cannot sit and wonder why no one saw that this person was living a homosexual lifestyle; we CAN laud the current leaders for standing up for Catholic staff who live the Faith. There ARE such leaders who are leading and should be appreciated. THe Catholic CHurch, Yea God! Am I glad to be a Catholic….yes! Patricia From St. Louis, MO
Patricia. there were chiildren involved and young people who had not reached the age of sexual consent. The Catholic League, to any extent it tries to defend the priests invovled in the awful conduct and to the extent that it seeks to deny the issue of pedophilia, is jut plain wrong and/or ignorant of the differences bewtween homosexuality and pedophilia.
Homoesexuality is NOT the issue.
What research information are you reading to come to that conclusion? Please, I am interested in where you got this information. By the way, did you read the Catholic League website? And I look forward to your response….I am learning something new about the Catholic Faith every day….Patricia in ST. Louis
No one knows where Lisa is getting her theology from.
What university did you get your “BA in Roman Catholic theology”??? Everything we know about Christianity RESIDES in the Catholic Church indeed.
Catechism:
The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. “By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practising and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.“46
The Magisterium of the Church
the task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.“47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome. (Catechism 84-85).
Not sure how you can obtain any valid fact necessary for salvation of human beings about Christianity outside of 1-“Sacred deposit” 2-“Tradition” which have been “entrusted” to “the whole of the Church.”
No one said individuals in the Catholic hierarchy are infallible. I said the Pope in communion with the rest of the bishops are infallible when they speak about matters of faith. This infallibility does not have anything to do with personal sin.
and Patricia makes a good point. The sexual issues in the church have to do with homosexual priests and NOT pedophile priests. Look at the abuse victims, they mostly consist of males above the age of 13. But of course, because people like you do not want to “offend” practicing homosexuals, they choose to qualify the problem as pedophilia.
I too urge you to abandon Nancy Pelosi and co. and get some authentic Catholic education.
Raising so many controversial issues on this blog is music to my ears. As Catholics, we should be encouraging one another to speak, believe and pray and act on out beliefs. THere are really weirdo things happening in our country. We have a 2 Nov general election and if we Catholics and other Christians do not vote properly, we will get the same legislators and leaders that we now have. It is a certainty, I truly believe.
The best and worst thing that occurred in the last general election was the election of Barrack Obama…he put a face on the pro-bortion issue. We Catholics and other pro-lifers need to work together to elect responsible leaders. Not too much time left.
What can we do to vote well? Patricia in St. Louis, MO
The scandal here is self-righteousness, arrogance, and a lack of charity—in both the original column and most of the comments. Seriously. Would any one reading this want to be a Catholic based on the example we Catholics give here? The scandal is not some poor guy living with his partner of 20 years. (How do YOU know if they have sex or not? I mean, please!) And a guy wanting to serve the poor no less—as Jesus commanded! The scandal is the pharisaical, sanctimonious and simply mean parsing of the situation like is done here.
So, David…..does a person living in sin (having sex with a man or woman on a regular basis….not married if a woman is the person.)... be a leader in a Catholic organization whose emphasis is committed Catholics leading other Catholics to increase the numbers of Catholics into the ‘fold’? Catholics remind one another ways to live more fully the Catholic life, as you know because you are a committed Catholic?
I would say, no they should not be…...
Just curious…Patricia from St. Louis
God bless you, David. You hit the nail, the problem right on the head.
In the same vein, I suppose….do we want clergy that do not hold to chastity, commit to homosexual relations becoming priests who hear confessions, work with children, etc. Again, just curious….
..certainly I am not stepping on Father Andre St. Germain’s toes as I am sure he is properly ordained and chaste, as we want our priests, bishops, etc to be…or do we? Again just curious…
Patricia from St. Louis, MO
Patricia, We are all sinners seeking salvation by trying to live lives of repentance. It is sinners that make up the Church.
Again, Patricia you are not sure that I am living a chaste life and unless you are my confessor you can never be sure. As for “properly ordained” that can always be easily verified.
What is important in a spiritual life is our humility, our struggle for holinest and our strong belief that Jesus is the Son of God and to act on that belief.
I agree with you, Father, on all accounts… you did not respond to my several questions.
I must go to do errands…...I am behind in getting icon art orders in the mail…...In Christ, and His Blessed Mother, Patricia from St. Louis, MO and loving it
David, I assume you’ve exempted yourself from the charges you’ve laid on those who posted their comments here?
Was St. Paul self-righteous, arrogant and lacking in charity when he clearly rebuked a false teacher in Acts 13:10?? Or when he rebuked St. Peter himself in Galatians 2:11-21? I don’t need to cite the endless instances when Church Fathers rebuked and totally embarrassed any one who posed himself to be a Catholic, and yet did not uphold Catholic teachings. In fact, if we’re to backtrack the comments posted above, almost all comments are directed towards the sin of engaging in homosexual acts, which clearly is the case here when the article clearly states:
“Goldone has been in a relationship with his partner for 20 years. “We are truly blessed by God to have each other and to have Jesus Christ in our lives. How could we be the source of ‘shame and embarrassment?’ ”
What do you suppose the word “relationship” means? Roommates? I beg to differ.
it sounds like you prefer to cater to everyone while compromising our Holy Catholic Church’s teaching for the sole purpose of winning numbers.
Homosexual acts are condemned, period.
As for the Father, who has less zeal for his Church’s teachings than a lapsed Catholic, I’m just happy I’m not in his confession booth, or in his ‘flock’ altogether.
God bless.
Patricia, On the question of homosexual priests, I think there are many in the Church today. The Holy Father has made it clear that as a rule homosexuals should not be admitted to our seminaries.
Look,it’s very hard to lead a chaste life today so there is no need by making harder by surrounding one’s self in a totally male environment.
If I was advising Mr. Goldstone I would encourage him to not place himself in this occasion for sin. However it is not for me to judge the state of Mr. Goldstone soul. Jesus makes it very clear that we are not to judge. Homosexual acts are always grave matter and are judged sinful however I must not judge a person sinful; that is between him and God.
IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE POPE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS INFALLIBLE WHEN SPEAKING OR TEACHING ON THE SUBJECTS OF FAITH AND MORALS, THEN YOU ARE NOT CATHOLIC (Period)...
IF YOU DO NOT JUDGE A PERSON SINFUL THEN HOW DO YOU ADMONISH THE SINNER?
ALSO HOW DO YOU KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG?
It really is quite simple—you do not judge the person but the act that they have done (sin). Homosexuality is a willful act. Homosexuality is a sin. Therefore you judge the act as a sin against God and mankind…..
I see you refer to the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century as a revolt against the hierarchy. How successful was it? At last count there were over 5,000 registered protestant religions in the USA alone, all with their own set of rules and teachings borrowed from the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ gave the keys to his kingdom to Peter (Rock) and his successors (Pope)...It is hard to deny history…..
Ignorance is not a religion. hate is not a faith, intolerance is not a creed. I support the separation of church and hate.
Saying that not believing that the Pope is not infallible when speaking on faith and morals puts one outside the Catholic church is silly. The doctrine of Papal infallibility did not come into existence until Vatican I—1869. And it applies only to the Roman Catholic Church. There are many Catholics who are not Roman Catholics. Orthodox Catholics are Catholics—thier priest marry and they did not beleive in papal infallibility. Catholicism also happsens outsdie the Vatican and outside of Rome.
The idea that any human being is infallible on any subject is idolatry. Only God is infallible.
A man living an honest life in a mature relationship is excluded from leadership in a church-related organization. Women Religious who have dedicated their lives to the gospel of Jesus Christ are subjected to an inquisition. But lying, duplicitous, corrupt, pedophile-protecting bishops and archbishops are rewarded with plum posts in the Vatican.
Thus the RC Church continues its slide into irrelevance.
Lisa it’s very very very clear that you do not have a BA in anything, let alone in Roman Catholic theology. “Orthodox Catholics are Catholics”????? That’s the most absurd thing I have ever heard. By “Orthodox Catholics” of course you mean Eastern RITES of Catholicism, such as Chaldean Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Melchite Catholics etc. These are NOT ORTHODOX CATHOLICS. They are Eastern Catholics. Eastern Orthodox are in schism with Rome. They are not called Catholics. No Catholic on the face of the planet rejects Ex Cathedra (Pope’s infallibility when speaking on matters of doctrine). Otherwise they ARE NOT Catholics. Ex Cathedra is a DOCTRINE. Anyone who rejects a doctrine or a dogma of the Catholic Church is NOT and CANNOT be a Catholic. They are excommunicated. My advice for you is to inform your priest of your views, see if he continues to offer you communion. If he does, then let me know and I’ll call the bishop of your diocese and see what he says on this issue.
Kaisar, please see my previous post re ignorance, hate and intolerance. You probably should review it. And lay off the kool-aid for a bt—its really getting to you.
Kaisar, also a reminder that Jesus was a not a Catholic, was not a Christian. he was an observant Jew, whose moral teachings came straight from Torah. he did talk dogma or doctrin. He talked love and compassion, he ate with sinners. He sought to include, not exclude. Being a Roman Catholic, following the revealed traditions may not necessarily make one good in the sight of God. That judgment is up to God and not up to human beings who may want to impose a particular theology on everyone else. Let’s separate Church from hate.
Jay Everett, you ask about the success of the Protestant Reformation. I guess I can only say that it is obvious that 500 yrs after the Reformation there are still Protestants. Not every Christian is a Roman Catholic. I suppose you could characterize that as either the success of Martin Luther and the Reformation or the failure of the Roman Catholic Church to hold Christianity together.
I guess protestants now-a-days hold the very same doctrine of Luther (Mary, the Eucharist, the priesthood…)
Bob,
I suppose the doctrine of various Protestant churches is quite varied. In mentioning Martin Luther in my previous post, I was realy thinking more broadly. Luther publicly, loudly and openly forged a new and different path for Christians (for better or worse) that attracted and retains many followers.
Lisa, if anyone needs to lay off something, it would be you. You need to lay off new age liberalism and lukewarm nonsense. Notice how you did not respond to the errors you made regarding the “Orthodox Catholics,” a weird and strange name you just invented, and instead, you went off to insult and call me names. Stop thinking more broadly, and begin thinking more specifically. Protestantism is not the fault of the Church’s Doctrines and Dogmas. It is the work of Satan and the best proof for that is the 33,000 different denominations that exist and are yet still multiplying on daily basis. God is not the God of confusion.
Jesus is the author of Catholicism in the same manner God was the author of Judaism. Would it be apt to say the God is Jewish??? For someone whose mind does not go beyond sectarian and denominational compartmentalization such as you, yes it is apt.
P.S. this is for future reference. Catholic means Universal and it is the name of the Church that our blessed Lord instituted here on earth, through which human beings can obtain the fullness of faith necessary for salvation. I can’t wait to see what adventurous response this is going to generate from you.
Kaisar, if you review my posts, you will see that I engaged in NO name calling. Your vehemence makes yu appear defensive and insecure re Roamn Catholicism.
If you believe in the Hypostatic Union as set forth by the Church, then for time that Jesus was on earth, God was manifest as a Jew.
As for the Reformation, history is clear that it came about becasue by the 16th century, the Church had a real and unaddressed problem with clerical corruption from the Vatican down through the ranks. In addition, Luther, Tyndale et al had come to differing conclusions about what christianity meant. You can attribute all this to Satan or whatever, but you cannot deny it happened and you cannot deny that Christianity remains divided today. And yes, there are other Catholics aside from Roman Catholics—in union with Rome and not in union with Rome—but they are Catholics. Orthodox Russian Catholics and Orthodox grreek Catholics are Orthodox Catholics. You do not like this, but that is the reality.
Ulitmately, the only thing that matters is God. We cannot know what God knows, we cannot know how God will judge the world or us. We can only do our best to discern God’s will.
I would like to think we can all share our beliefs and opinions with charity and foregiveness. On this blog. Among all of us. There are people reading this blog who are NOT Christian and some who are Christian. Let’s give examples of Christian Charity. It was the love of one another that convinced people in the early centuries to become Christian. In St. Louis, MO Patricia
Lisa, alright, I won’t scrutinize your post there for every tiny theological error you’ve made. In the spirit of love, I’ll be short and straight to the point. The failures that you’re attributing to Holy Mother Church are not found in its doctrines or dogmas. Rather, they reside in the sinners that subscribe to this Church. Sinners like you and I. Therefore, instead of blaming the Church for not keeping Christianity together, we should be blaming ourselves and our own personal journey towards holiness, something that is very difficult to attain outside of the Church Sacraments. Today, our faith lives precisely and exactly because of Catholic martyrs who shed their blood for their Church, beginning with our Lord Jesus. I can’t imagine these martyrs ever denouncing their Church or blaming her for the sins committed by fallen human beings.
God bless.
K.
It’s great to see our beliefs are being LIVED out, not just given lip service. Now politicians claiming to be Catholic-Christians need to be addressed.
It’s not the Roman Catholic church that is being “unfair” in this case, it’s all over Scripture that while God loves all of us sinners, He loves us too much to leave us that way. We come around to HIS way of thinking, or we are not His followers.
Bottom line. Not everyone that calls themself a “church member” is a Christian, whether they be Catholic or Protestant. It is following Scripture. No one can Read Romans Chapter One and call living a homosexual lifestyle good. Homosexuals must remain celibate.
I congratulate the person on this blog that said he lived a celibate life, as a homosexual man. A friend of mine believes the same - since he read Scripture, and changed his thinking by it. You are heroes, and wonderful examples! Thank you!
Good Lord! Patricia —I found you on this new blog —- and I am in full agreement with you. Imagine that!
Fr. Andre —you, sir, are intellectually dishonest. It is not us nor “we” who judge sin. It is God’s Word which identifies and judges sin. It is HIS standard. HE sets the standard. Are you not called to “preach” the Word—or your own false gospel?
Also, if it is (as you say) so hard to be chaste and sexually pure in today’s society, do you think that God just “winks” and says “Well, it’s OK to slip once in a while?” Really, Fr. Andre —are you sure you are employed in the right job? Forgiveness is based upon confession and repentance —that is, turning away from sinful behavior.
Just what we need —more Fr. Andre’s in our parishes. The priests in my diocese are spineless enough without adding more espousing the same attitude. Are there any priests out there taking a stand for righteousness? Recently, a gay priest said mass at my parish in full regalia —his rainbow vestment —while informing the parish during his homily that we all will be dining at table with homosexuals in Heaven. This—-is what is wrong with our current crop of priests. Please, just GO. Priests who believe such apostacy and preach deception have forfeited their right of ordination.
My question is for Fr. Andre St Germain: In what country/diocese are you a priest? I think we can each give a little answer to such a question as it puts in perspective where you come from…...just curious….
In St.Louis, MO
The Vatican needs to investigate the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. This is one of many scandals.
F.R. —why must we always wait for the Vatican to do anything? They move slower than molasses on everything.
If there were more Bible studies taught in Catholic parishes, and prayer meetings during the WEEK, like on Wednesday nights, for TEENS and ADULTS and even SENIORS, getting the Word of God into us, and living it, being “salt and light” in our communities, we would see a change in the Church that would be like none other.
Trying to get back to “holiness” on our own, is hopeless. In order to be “holy” (aka ‘set apart for God’) we must be living under the power of the Holy Spirit.
We know through Scripture that God inhabits HIS word. Let’s all INSIST on more vibrant Bible studies in every parish throughout the Nation. That would mean our priests, bishops et al, would have to attend. Not necessarily teach. Just attend. We can all learn together. God’s Word is easy to understand, when being led by Him. All we have to do is to ASK for wisdom - humble ourselves and ASK Him to guide us. He will. That is a promise to us.
Fr. Andre - A few folks have asked you questions that remain unanswered.
Are you a real priest? Please respond to the questions that have been asked by others, in good faith. Lay people and clergy must dialog. It’s healthy - everyone learns.
Fr.Andre St Germain: Where do you do most of your preaching…in a specific parish or monastery?
Your comments leave something to be desired as to priestly comments, adhering to the Magisterium, the Holy Father…..really…..answering simple questions we ask one another on this blog. Not answers one would expect from a priest…..Look forward to your answer, Fr. Andre.
In St. Louis, Patricia
Amen, Patrica. I hope this priest is not someone who is training young seminarians. If true, no wonder we have such a disproportionate amount of gay priests today. This is disgusting. And men in the pews have zero respect for men (priests) who do not act like men. There are waaaay too many effeminate priests and we can spot them a mile away.
To KR1000: I am glad you said these words regarding priests. I do believe we laypeople have a large responsibility to speak up when speaking up may not be popular with the higher up. Sap rises from the bottom. I have seen miracles happen when a person speaks up to the right organization who can lead them in the correct actions to take. One such organization is a group in San Antonio, TX who help laypeople when there iare crazy things going on in their diocese. I believe they specialize in this help. I do not recall the name.
The longer St. Germaine takes to respond, the worse things are..
In Christ, Patricia in ST. Louis, MO
Patricia - Knowing of an organization in TX is good - if you have contact information, it would be ideal. A few years ago, there was a New Age nun that taught a class to over 60 local women, the class was called “A Fresh New Look at the Beatitudes”. She said Jesus did not say “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” But rather, in Aramaic, he said (something like) “Happy and aligned are they that are one with the queenship and kingship of the cosmos.”
I raised my hand and told her that it couldn’t be so different from what we know because Scripture says not one word should be changed. She ignored me and went on with the 3 hour class (confusing as it was). I later learned it was drivel being taught by a Neil Douglas Klotz (who may not even be Christian, let alone Catholic).
My bishop couldn’t care less about reining in the nun. Her pastor couldn’t care less. So since this was about the time of the movie The Passion of the Christ, I was able to fax her hand-out to the consultant priest for the movie. Within about 2 weeks, my bishop (reluctantly) wrote me that the class wuold no longer be taught.
For the record, it was George Lamsa that is the scholar known for translating Aramaic into English - the whole Bible, and it’s what we know. Not the Klotz garbage. FYI - if anyone else faces what we did here.
Thank you, Cradle, for your involvement. For those of us “laity,” we are too busy working and taking care of families to even be aware of such liberalism and poetic license cropping up in the church. It is extremely troublesome that the pastor and bishop in your area chose to give this New Age nun a “pass.” I am thankful for your vigilance. The sad part is that those in attendance probably gave automatic deference to the nun since she was leading this nonsense. (And it is nonsense). For many of us, I am pleased to see the laity now holding people who wear collars held accountable for what they preach in God’s name. If this New Age nun desires to stare into crystals and form her own gospel she can do it on her own time —but not in our parishes.
Dear All: I moved from N. California June 2009 as the liberalism was just too great and other things….like the Governor permitting a law to pass that all public school teachers in CA HAD to teach homosexual is an OK lifestyle AND that abortion is OK. There are ways teachers can get around this because I have talked with them. The problem is that is goes through the society. THe name of the group in San Antonio is St. Joseph FOundation. I will try and get more info and write another blognote.
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
The St. Joseph Foundation contact info is:
http://www.st-joseph-foundation.org/index.php?section=about_us
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Thank you to KR - and to Patricia for the information. I write from No. California, from where you left. Ugh. I know what you mean - yet, we ought not have to leave.
My family are 3rd generation Californians, and it seems like MOST folks think like we do - but are afraid to speak up, as are bishops and priests. What’s to fear? We MUST speak up, no matter where we live. Even with clergy, that are often spineless, and like to think more of themselves than they deserve = PRIDE.
Let’s all speak up for Godly values. And remember in November.
Dear Cradle Catholic….if you want to share where you live in N. CA, I would be happy to listen to your impressions of life in N. CA. I will certainly remember you in my prayers. I had to leave. I enjoy St. Louis, MO as it is very conservative..lots of museums and Catholic events and lots of Catholic churches. I was in the Santa Rosa diocese. No one wanted to speak up….I mean speak up to make a difference. I am the only Catholic in my family. I had to find a community. The priests did not even meet with one another on a regular basis becaue they ‘did not want to.” THe Mass was especially important to me. The first one for miles around was at 9 AM weekdays. Here the Masses are regularly 8 AM, some places 6:30 AM. I go to a Latin Mass and I am in Heaven nowadays. See, I needed the support I was never going to find in N. CA. I started my icon art business, I met some wonderful people. I got my health restored. The spiritual - the Mass was a critical point in my decision to move. In Christ, In st. Louis, MO Patricia
Hi Patricia —Santa Rosa in NORCAL —I heard about that diocese. A former priest there was defrocked for fooling around with Catholic HS girls. He later became a talk show host in San Fransciso —KGO. Currently this former priest is doing time in a Texas federal prison for distribution of child porn. This was all over the news around 2008 or so. The story of this former defrocked priest is on the internet. Disgusting. Thank God this guy was tossed out. The sad part is that most of our Bishops—at least until now have turned a blind eye and have not had any ______ to deal with men who have no business being in the priesthood.
Yes. the man was a talk show host and not a very good one….we Catholics cringed when he came on. We need to pray for him…..and the soul of the former bishop Ziemann who is now dead, God rest his soul.
Where is the St. Germaine who used to comment?
I think a Year of the Laity should be proclaimed…hey…WE CAN DO THAT…to encourage, strongly…laity to pray and fast and stand up for the Faith…THE FAITH…....In St. Louis, Patricia
BTW, the bishop’s crozier is used, with a hook at the end, to pull the wandering sheep back into the fold. A Shepherd Looks at the 23rd Psalm I think that is the name of the book, is excellent for seeing what a shepherd REALLY does…...one with 4-legged sheep….a great analogy.
In Christ, Patricia
Hi Patricis - thank you for your prayers. We could use all the intentions we can get here. I write from the Diocese of San Jose, CA, and according to an article from last Fall 2009, for the past 20 years, the ‘leaders’ in this diocese have been turning it into “The Most Gay-friendly Diocese in the Nation”. A priest from San Jose was on the cover of the article that follows, and if you can’t pull it up, just do an Internet search for those words - Metro newspaper, and it will come up.
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/11.18.09/cover-0946.html
While not all priests are like the one in this article (who monopolizes the Valley Catholic diocesan rag with ideas from his parishioners, one an openly homosexual professor at San Jose State University) there are no priests here with guts to speak out for Godly values, so the people remain shepherdless.
Yes - I say the Year of the Laity is in order - though, according to Scripture, there ought not be different types of people, only different roles in ONE church. Check out the story. Ugh. Glad you are happy where you are. I too, love the Mass. The most perfect form of prayer.
All - I found this story about a priest that DID speak out and his bishop called him to task for it. UNREAL. All the comments on this story from Catholics are panning the bishop and applauding the priest. I wish we could all send the priest a thank you note, and a word of encouragement.
Link AND story follows:
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=7300
Texas bishop rebukes priest who wrote against homosexuality, abortion
August 23, 2010
Bishop Armando Ochoa of El Paso has rebuked a diocesan priest who wrote that “every single Catholic, out of fidelity to charity and truth, has the absolute duty to oppose (1) the murder of unborn babies, and (2) any and all government attempts to legalize homosexual unions.”
“I urge all of the Catholic faithful to treat homosexuals with love, understanding, and respect,” Father Michael Rodriguez had added in his August 2 El Paso Timescolumn. “At the same time, never forget that genuine love demands that we seek, above all, the salvation of souls. Homosexual acts lead to the damnation of souls.”
“I would like to state that previous columns claiming to speak for Catholic Doctrine were the personal opinions of individuals and do not necessarily express the belief of the Catholic Church,” Bishop Ochoa responded in an August 22 El Paso Timescolumn. “The Church has been unmistakable about its consistent defense of the unborn … Likewise, the Church is a supporter of the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. These teachings come from a tradition that wants to promote the good of society. My concern in writing this reflection is not to change these teachings, but to offer a more pastoral understanding in dealing with them.”
“When we talk about abortion and homosexuality, we are talking about human beings dealing with all kinds of concerns and unresolved challenges,” he continued. “Our Church does not want to simply judge and condemn, but first to offer Christ’s love and compassion. God’s first and primary law is love and how love of others is at the same time our love for God.”
“As Church we want to journey with everyone as they search for meaning in their lives. We believe that Christ offers this meaning,” the bishop continued. “The use of harsh words of condemnation is not the approach Christ invites us to have toward one another. Intolerance closes the door to learning and deeper understanding of each other.”
“Furthermore, it leads to divisiveness within the body of Christ. It is time for us to learn how to work with each other, even when and if we disagree. Too many people have suffered because of a profound lack of compassion and a perceived arrogant intolerance.”
“While it is important to offer a teaching on human sexuality which may not be popular in modern society, the Church, nonetheless, upholds that each person be treated with dignity and respect,” Bishop Ochoa concluded. “I urge all of our pastoral agents to reach out to individuals with a homosexual orientation and their families with compassion. This can be done without compromising Church teaching in any way because our pastoral care demands no less from us.”
Source(s): these links will take you to other sites, in a new window.
Bishop Armando X. Ochoa: Catholic Church advocates compassion (El Paso Times)
El Paso Catholic Bishop Says Priest Was Stating Personal Opinion Concerning Gays (KVIA-TV)
Priest in Texas newspaper: ‘Homosexual acts lead to the damnation of souls’ (CWN, 8/2/10)
Arrogance vs humility it is the age old struggle in the Church among all of us. Vatican II defined us as the “People of God”, John Paul II evolved a different vision one of “defender of the truth”.
This topic string was I thought about a gay man in St. Louis being discriminated against by a Catholic Charitable organization. How did we end up in El Paso? Just curious. Talk about off topic.
Joe - I think the news I pointed out from El Paso perfectly illustrates the point you made early on in this blog, on Sun. Aug. 15 4:46PM. That’s why I brought it to everyone’s attention. From my perspective, it’s not off topic. The church gives mixed messages - silencing a priest who speaks out individually and yet, as a group, bishops say about the same thing. Would listening to the bishops collectively, one come to the conclusion that the message the priest delivered was wrong?
No wonder our priests are so disempowered to speak out on their own. Those that have the courage to deliver the message THIS priest did are disciplined - or in this case, publicly embarrassed. The church needs to get its act together, or as you say: lose in the public square.
The situation in St. Louis, in my opinion, has no relevance to situation in El Paso. One is about not hiring a gay man by a Catholic Charity with I am assuming the local hierarchy’s full support. The situation in El Paso involves the local Bishop saying to a cleric who is accountable to him, that we agree on the Church’s Teaching just not your style of presentation.
I don’t know what I think about that. However, that is not the current topic here, or am I missing something?
I was commenting on another blog several months ago with several people, one of which claimed he was a priest. It turns out that this gentleman was no longer a priest and was instead a homosexual activist. He responded the same way this “priest” responded when cornered on specifics - dead silence.
Mr. St. Germain, please let us know the parish and/or diocese where you work. I am sure that your Bishop would be very interested in your opinions. Unless, of course, you are not a priest at all.
The topic I was speaking about was regarding laity getting involved in their diocese, I joined the RCIA team in the Santa Rosa CA Diocese and became a sponsor for a man. I stood my ground on the abortion issue when I was outnumbered by other sponsors, the priest, the RCIA ‘coordinator’ and a paid spiritual director leading a session on moral theology.
Just that week I came across an article regarding the many topics the Church discusses on theology…..it has been some years so my facts may not be accurate. The upshot was I went to the higher ups in the diocese and had a certain former nun transferred from the chancery to a rather hidden position in a church within the diocese, so she influenced less people. She became involved in parish youth education….....hmmmm not terrific either…
I did not request her ‘transfer’; I just spoke of my disappointment that this former nun had secured a woman to speak to us who did not support a MAJOR teaching of the Catholic Church. (Right to Life).
I am happy now…..I go to Planned Parenthood twice a week and attempt to inform men and women about contraception and abortion and breast cancer, etc., the information you all already know.
I decided long ago to change the dirty diapers of the area where I lived, as I certainly was not going to cause the dirty diapers!
Hello, Fr. St. Germaine, please speak up!
In Christ, Patricia in St. Louis
Patricia- You are doing great work, thank you! I once spoke with a woman who, because I was a stranger and she knew I’d worked on a Pro-Life issue, she shared with me that when she was in college, she’d had an abortion.
She said she called her mother from a phone booth, and her mother said, “You got yourself into this mess. You get yourself out of it.” Her boyfriend and his parents wanted no responsibility. So she went to the college counselor, who arranged for her to have an abortion.
No ‘choice’ - only an abortion. She said after the procedure, the nurse asked her if she wanted to look at ‘it’. She looked, and the woman was startled and horrified by what she saw. She told me, “It was a baby. I was expecting to see a blob of tissue, but it was a baby.” She told me the image was burnt in her mind, and she remembers it with grief, to this day. This was about 7 years ago, and the woman was in her 30’s with a supportive husband, and a 2 year old toddler.
At the time, I wished I’d known about Rachel’s Project - it may have helped the woman with her grief. Although I was Pro=Life, I was ill prepared to really help that woman. Now I know more. I’m glad I am Pro-Life, and thank folks like you, Patricia, for bringing information to people.
We ALL need to educate ourselves - Fr. Andre - where are you?
I think I have found what I like to do and it is working…..the people drive into the site, I offer them information, they may or may not take it…may or may not listen to me. Then it is over and I do the same thing all over again with the next car entering the site parking lot.
It is truly exciting! Once in a while someone listens to us, and we talk with them and connect them with resources so they can have the baby. The money just appears to our leader of about 25 years! It is so uplifting to be involved with this volunteer work. St. Louis now has a St. Joseph Project, a weekend retreat for men who are affected by abortion, in addition to the separate weekend retreat for women affected by abortion. The healing is really so needed. See the story of Patricia Neal who died recently..the story of the abortion she had as a young woman and how she was led to healing and became a Catholic before she died. Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition - “2357 ....Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”
They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
or
Bible - Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10; Gen 19:1-29.
All sexual acts outside of Marriage (defined as between one man and one woman) are MORTAL sins.
This includes homosexual acts, adultary, fornication, masterbation, etc.
Purposeful viewing of pornography is also a Mortal sin.
Several of the above posts (who pretend to know the Catholic Faith) are deceitful. The posts are lies.
The last two posts (and a few others) are correct.
If you can not find it in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” regarding Faith and Morals, - it is false.
I don’t iunderstand why this man was on the committe if it was known his lifestyle? And then why have it he was able to go up the ladder in positions on this committee then shot down for the postion of President?
No matter his lifestyle, he obviously was doing an exceptional job with this committee. However, he should have A) Not have been outspoken about his relationship and should admit (keeping this all between him and God) (if he hasn’t) he is living in a sinful lifestyle via confession B) Worked on dissolving his relationship with his partner and pursued a chasity of abstinance.
I think both the individual and this committee are both to blame for this conflict—For both were not following the church’s teachings within this committee.
Translate this situation to another profession and determine the answer.
No one knows what people do in the privacy of their home…(Remember Roe v. Wade…privacy was a big issue in this court case.) I can extol my success in having a great friend who happens to be my roommate, if I had one. Who would question my relationship? I could bring my friend to company parties, do things together and our private life is just that: private!
However, when a person OFFERS the information that they are in a sexual relationship and not married, that sends up red flags! Could this person have retained his current job OR could his company have helped him get a similar job in another company…let’s not just outright fire him.
If he offered what he did in private, then he makes himself a human target, whether he wanted to or not.
A President of PETA should not be a big su$$orter of experimentation on live animals in laboratories. A Girl Scout Leader should not also be a supporter of Planned Parenthood (that happened big time and the US Girl Scouts are so infected!) Good Girl Scouts belong to another similar organization without the sexual teachings of Planned Parenthood. If some of these readers are offended, they might go to www.teenwire.com and see what young children are exposed to.
Les Miserables’ lead character spent years in prison and came out a different man and became a leader of a small community. He kept it secret for good reason. That is completely different and yet sort of the same.
Each person and situation is different. Good bishops and good Catholic leaders keep their eyes open to employee behavior….maybe even invite a priest to meetings. Some priests and non-priests and laypeople can sniff out people who are not following the Catholic Church. Sound deceitful?
Laypeople are important. The disciples might have discovered Judas’ true character….stealing from the group’s treasury had they knew the importance of an accounting of the $$$$.
I spent 20 years in a Catholic diocese whose members decided to have a consolidated fund for the diocese….laypeople did nothing to stop it and the result was a $16 million problem some years later. Laypeople need to keep their eyes and ears open and have an excellent confessor to discuss their concerns with.
I wish the next special Catholic year could be: Year of the Laity
or laypeople…...
Mother Teresa before she made a big decision asked three of her trusted friends….one often was the Holy Father…got their advice and then made her own decision.
I want to thank whomever sets up the little puzzle at the end of the comments section…it is so easy to read the letters and numbers!
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
To Patricia Cornell: I vote for: “The Year of the Pew People”.
Yes, the Pew People! That will work. She is OUR Church and we want to defend and protect Her as well as her priests.
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Glad you liked the suggestion, Patricia. We are ONE Body. Priests, as well as us pew people, have a ROLE to play, as part of the one Body of Christ.
The Church is One. The Bride of Christ, is One. The Body of Christ, is ONE. We are a priesthood of believers. Some are ordained, some are not ordained. We are all in “ministry”, for the glory of God.
So who do we need to talk with to get “The Year of the Pew People” on the Vatican ballot? We already had “The Year of the Priest” last year.
Start with our bishop and then keep going up. Save money and contact the official by phone, not email and keep track. Everyone who wants this to happen can do this…..not brain surgery.
Patricia in St. Louis
Okay - with all the messy things going on in the Vatican and in the dioceses, this request should be refreshing to the powers that be. I will make my call this afternoon, and since it’s Holy Week, I’ll follow up again, next week. “Pew people” it is!
Good success, Cradle Catholic….prayers in my daily 54-day Rosary Novena for your efforts. Yea, God! Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Task completed. I left a message with a deacon I know personally at my diocese, asking how to take the “Year of the Pew People” to the Vatican.
I also e-mailed a bishop I know from a nearby archdiocese, telling both men I’d follow up again next week, knowing they’re likely occupied with Holy Week right now. So I’ll let all of you know when I hear back.
Really, this should be a refreshing request for the Vatican, a healthy collaborative effort; a win/win for everyone, and the press will go wild, this time with positive news.
Patricia Cornell from MO: you’re terrific! No pew-sitters complaints here! You suggested an excellent idea, all for the Glory of God! Amen to your “Yea, God!” I’ll add: “Yea to the National Catholic Register too”, for allowing us to voice our opinions here. Thank you for the prayers!
Courage..the fight will continue..stay tuned in! Patricia in St. Louis, MO
I called one priest in n. CA to pass along to his Bishop, one priest in Massachusetts and one priest in LA, both to pass along to anyone they know going to see the Holy Father and one Canon (a priest). I said I would get back with them next week.
I also sent an email to CNA (email) since an article on the Papal Nuncio appeared on their website, requesting his email. CNA = Catholic News Agency. I stressed that the Year of the Pew is needed because people in the pew have a distinct mission to spread the Word of Jesus Christ. As such, as need the support and encouragement that a year would give us.
Whether priests, bishops, monsignors, laypeople, deacons….all have a special calling that calls for encouragement in a special way. Perhaps documents coming from the Vatican will enlighten us. However our challenges are unique and we have a history of responding or not responding to the call to do Missionary work.
How can we act better…more as God wants us to act…...a Year of the Pew is in order to help achieve a better laity.
Year of the Pew a request that is worthy of the asking
Anyone reading this email from me is welcome to contact their clerical people as well. Do what you can to make this request known to the Holy Father. I believe he listens and will respond, unlike other people I know…no names given.
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
My last email for the day on the issue of the Year of the Pew was to email Dr. William Donohue. Most people will know him as the head of the Catholic League and strong Catholic Defender…..a lion and a tiger in one!
I asked him to spread the word to anyone he knows going to talk with the Holy Father. Happy Easter everyone! Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Patricia - thank you SO much! First, for encouraging me to take part in this worthy cause; secondly, for being proactive yourself!
You are completely correct in that priests, already having had a year of honor, are to preach & teach “The Deposit of Faith” to us, EQUIPPING us pew people to take our faith into the secular world, so we can live IN the secular world, but being salt and light in it, & not allowing the morals & values of the secular world to corrupt us.
How can we do that, if we sit in the pews, mute & mostly listless? There needs to be more interaction, and among everyone of us, not just a handful of church regulars. The regulars in my parish are in their 80’s now, and phasing out of all the responsibilities they’ve been taking on.
I’m thrilled that you know clergy too, and you, like me, feel comfortable with asking for their help with this. Super idea to ask Bill Donohue for help!
While Catholics are known for being charitable, stepping to the plate to help foreign missions and people in need in our own communities, an atheist is as easily apt to do that. We “Pew People” are called upon in The Great Commission, to spread the Good News of the Gospel.
So the “Year of the Pew People” will activate every one of us, allowing for collaboration on The Great Commission: priest, bishop & pew people, together: a group composed of all age groups, both sexes, all cultures, and it’s world-wide. I find this very exciting, and the time has come.
Instead of it being a kind of “in name only” honor, this movement could be precisely what will energize our church, from the bottom, up.
Imagine how there could be a wave of projects, all over the world, that will be the spark of energy we need, to fill pews, equipping everyone in the Body of Christ with the knowlege that has ETERNAL VALUE.
This will get everyone in the Body of Christ on the same page too, resulting in priests getting the help they need—from other MEN.
Our church has become so feminized, with too many fathers and husbands staying home, allowing wives to go to Mass, taking their younger children with them, but with the older children often staying home with dad. That is not God-honoring.
We need to get back to basics. The “Year of the Pew People” is the ideal remedy. The Body of Christ is ALL of us. In these times of such low secular morality, we need to be concerned with matters of Eternal Value. This life is short. Eternity is LONG. It’s time to equip ourselves now!
The Vatican is in place, dioceses are in place, priests are in place: pew people are in place. So the symphony is there, ready to glorify God.
“The Year of the Pew People” is like the conductor, and the score is a no-brainer, it too, is in place: The Great Commission, the Deposit of Faith. So we’ll just learn it, from our clergy, & make lovely music together!
Yes, yes, yes from Patricia in St. Louis, MO. Keep the energy going strong! We are the only religion (Christianity) which has a mandate to spread our beliefs to others…far and wide…... in love and in service. Islamic people do not have this mandate, nor do the other religions….Tibetan, Buddist (sp), Shinto…name some more…..
And with the great quantity of people who are apologists (especially on Catholic Radio that is growing, growing, growing).....and the internet with quality websites www.newadvent.org, EWTN.com, ....come one name some more…...getting answers for people with questions cannot be easier.
Remember pray and if you can spread the word; let’s encourage anyone we know going to Rome to spread the word there and share the suggestion with the Holy Father!
I can think of many other suggestions which the Holy Father would not want to hear about; this one has been on my mind for many years and needs ground to be planted. See the Holy Father! Does he have email? President Obama has it. How did that get in this paragraph!!!
Traveling away from home is not a necessity. A person could be housebound and start a blog and build and build and build it up to something which educates and excites people the world over. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirir, so let’s get our bodies in action…....
We are now a few people…..we are the Pew People!! I can see the shirts now with our great comments describing who we are and what we are about…..one more reason public schools will ban shirts and go to uniforms! I can see it coming! I am bedbound at this point!
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Patricia - I love your enthusiasm! I just began reading the Bible again, and from cover to cover, due to your good influence.
I’m on Genesis Chapter One. “In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth”. What a perfect time to start reading it again: Easter! We will have that reading at the Holy Saturday night Mass, if memory serves.
I strongly believe us pew people need to do some research by ourselves, in advance, just reading the Bible, for starters. You mentioned the apologists from EWTN - I have heard the boys from Catholic Answers say themselves, “We are in church ‘Sales’, not in church ‘Administration’.”
So they’ll teach whatever they are told to teach. But the Holy Spirit will lead us Temples of the Holy Spirit into Truth, God’s Truth, when we sit down with the Bible, and READ IT.
A benefit of the “Year of the Pew People” is with the new enthusiasm will come WISDOM, and KNOWLEGE, and an UNDERSTANDING of the Deposit of Faith, and that comes directly from the Bible.
Pope Benedict should be very excited with this proposal, because he is an educator. What teacher would not be enthusiastic, to have his/her pupils show interest in the subject matter they teach?
With Pope Benedict having written so much on Jesus of Nazareth, and on other matters in the Deposit of Faith, I should think he’d do cartwheels down the Vatican hallways - if not physically, at least, in his heart. Pew people coming alive in the Holy Spirit should make him happy.
He just turned 84 last week. But a good person to reach is his long-time secretary, Monsignor Georg Ganswein. Pope Benedict has taken advice from him, and Monsignor GG seems savvy.
I can picture the T-shirts you mention. This effort may even get the attention and interest of those “Catholic” politicians that up to now have supported the ungodly practices of abortion and same-sex marriage.
If the bishops are smart, they’ll tune in to the movement you’ve sparked, Patricia. God bless you greatly.
How about if you join me this week, in reading Genesis? I can picture pew people in Catholic parishes all over America, on a week-night, all studying the Gospel of John together. Can you picture that?
Cradle Catholic: Great enthusiasm for the Faith! I am a convert of about 26 years and love the Faith..truly.
I like your reference to the media…..another shirt logo I sit in the pew; I don’t stay there!
I am swamped with stuff in preparation for a next Wednesday meeting of the Knights’ Women’s Auxiliary Meeting. I follow the readings daily. And this week is a real challenge for the priest…much reading. Pray for our priests!
Happy Easter, Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Thank you, Patricia, for your kind words and for all you do for the Kingdom of God. Perhaps you will join me in reading Genesis after Easter, and after your Knight’s Women’s Auxiliary duties are done.
By the way, the Knights of Columbus are my heroes in the Church. I write from California. It was the Knights (& the Mormon Church) that led the battle to vote YES on Prop 8, protecting marriage between one man & one woman, in Nov. 2008.
When a world-wide Bible study is done in Catholic parishes, and every Catholic is on the same page, priests will teach us what Romans Chapter One says about same-sex sexual relationships. It’s right there.
I can understand a fellow Catholic *disagreeing* with God & His inspired Word in that book. But I do not understand how anyone can read Romans Chapter One and think God *approves* of same-sex relationships. It’s not possible. Romans Chapter One is crystal clear. It simply must be taught by priests that are themselves, Bible-literate.
You left out the part about calling homosexual contact “putrid”.
Seems a lot of details are just ignored. When Malawi had 350million rescinded in aid due to human rights violations of homosexuals it was politicized by the church that the US is forcing values on a nation.
There’s no mention of the fourteen year sentence for two very real and human men recently.
Nor is there mention that the catholic church itself is forcing its values on the US.
We have basic standards of human dignity. The church consistently ignores this for homosexuals. Others just do not trust the church on these matters because of it. There’s no reason anyone should have to. This is why we have religious freedom. And not everyone’s religion requires a segment of the population to give up any and all expression of sexuality or family.
That is cruel and unusual.
The Catholic Church looks at homosexuals (call them what they are) as they would thieves. They should not have special Masses nor have parades where they simulate sex.
When they have been given attention, they go further, as in Caifornia where public school teachers MUST teach that a homosexual marriage is just another form of marriage to chidren of all ages.
Thieves, given attention, will steal and steal and steal…..we believe stealing is wrong. If we beliebe homosexuality is wrong, we address it and deal with it, not recognize it and honor it. And then are surprised when they try to spread their filth….which is what it is…look at the Center for Disease Control which reports which groups have made the numbers of STDs increse the most…....homosexuals….yet they scream when this is mentioned. Such is life.
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
“The Catholic Church looks at homosexuals (call them what they are) as they would thieves.”
Gee that sounds directly opposite of the catholic dogma saying to treat homosexuals with “dignity and respect”. It’s fascinating how others read into it. This really shows just how ineffective the church’s stance on social issues is ineffective and divisive.
This is why government should not be following your edicts.
Since I drew a parallel between thieves and homosexuals in terms stated in my comment, I figured that was enough….Patricia in ST. Louis, MO
I am just glad that Barack Obama is going to win the election tomorrow and the RCC and its gullible extreme-right wing followers can just continue to foam at the mouth and preach to each other about what “wonderful” people they are and what terrrible people gay people are. That the RCC will continue to be ineffectual in advancing its agenda of hate and bigotry in the name of their religion.
Please feel free to continue foaming at the mouth! Its all you can do, becasue your right-wing agenda is going nowhere.
Early in this discussion..though I did not go back to verify…I believe this man up for the President position stated publically that he lived in a homosexual relationship with his roommate. Otherwise no one would know he lived like a homosexual person. People heard him say so and the acted on his words.
BTW…the Pope is infallible in the areas of Faith and Morals….in no other topics…..even scandalous Popes whose many wives and children were a scandal still remained infalliable because when they spoke, they never spoke on these two topics except infallibly.
Patricia in St. Louis, MO
Patricia,
First of all, Barack Obama is not gay and has never said publicly said that he was. Just another way for extreme right wingers to try to disparage the President. Patricia, what a bizarre lie and what bizarre comment to make about the President.
Secondly, the doctrine of papal infallability did not become part of RC teaching until 1869—long after popes routinely ahd wives, mistresses and/or children. Ther have been too may corrupt and degenerate popes to beleive that any of them spoke infallibily about faith, morals or anything else. The RCC is of course free tot teach whatever gullible people will accept. The idea of papal infallability is a comfort to the weak-minded who cannot or will not use the gift of intelligence that God gave them.
Where did you get, Lisa, that I said the President was gay? This blog is about the man who worked for a Catholic organization who broadcased his living with his ‘partner’ and lost his job as a result.
Papal Infallability goes all the way back to all the previous Popes who had wives, lived in sin in other ways, etc. The Popes have always spoken the Truth in the areas of Faith and Morals, EVEN THOSE POPES WHO LIVED SINFUL LIVES EVEN BEFORE THIS PAPAL INFALLABILITY WAS CLAIMED.
If you want to pick apart what people say here in this blog, check out your facts more closely. We who are faithful Catholics can spot a person who is just critical and abusive…and I mean YOU…..a mile away.
Stop with the complaints about the Catholic Church. Get out of the Church if you are in it….save yourself and us lots of grief. We will pray for you….I will pray for you….Patricia in St. Louis, MO
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