“I would like to emphasize, at the outset, that this in no way represents a return to ‘the old Mass,’ for the Latin texts that provide the basis for the new translation were all approved after Vatican II.”

No, Father, we wouldn’t want that. Ew, the “old Mass.” That would be awful.

Now, when can we get a more correct, theologically sound, and poetic translation of the New American Bible?

I wish I were an American Catholic. Alberto Timidei, Pavia, Italy

Father Barron, as usual has put the matter beautifully and succinctly.

Posted by Gyrovague on Wednesday, Nov 23, 2011 10:50 AM (EST):

No, Father, we wouldn’t want that. Ew, the “old Mass.” That would be awful.

********************************************************************

And Gyrovague aptly demonstrates another tendency that has arisen with particular ferocity since the 60’s: the need for people to denigrate, ridicule, put-down and generally snark at those whose opinions one does not share.

I suppose that occurred when people unanchored themselves from the morality and objective Truth.

Nice work, friend! (/sarc off)

Think also that this a means from the Holy Spirit to focus our attention at this opportune time. Too many Catholics are Catholic In Name Only (CINO) and too many priests are giving a “personal performance” instead of being faithful to the Liturgy.
I wish this were said. Perhaps God left the Liturgy not as perfect to allow for this opportune reflection.

This helped me a lot. I have been fussing about “and with your spirit” which “spiritualises” the presider at Mass and the “under my roof” which for most is roof of the mouth, logically and very literally, and not the Roman officer’s reference to his home, roof of the house. I really like the blessed are those called to the Supper of the Lamb” - hope it is explained as the banquet of heaven from Revelation.

“A priest went to the ambo, and as he was about to speak, the microphone fell down; so he fixed the mic, was about to speak again, and the mic fell again. He then said ‘there seems to be something wrong with this mic’, and the congregants responded, ‘And also with you’” !!!  We will no longer be able to tell this joke.

This is a well thought out article on the new translations. They are more poetic. ALL of these new changes depend on the authentic delivery of the message of the clergy. Has some group or person taken the time to feed the souls and minds of the presiders so that they can actually pray these texts with and for their people. All of these changes will actually, if done with the correct Spirit, have the people sit up, or kneel up and take notice of the prayers they are hearing. Listening is key here, and we are in a culture that is not listening very well. Awareness will come to the gathered people if the person doing the presiding has it in their heart to pray well.
Who’s been working on that part please?
I have not read much about that, nor seen much evidence. It all starts at the heart of the matter.

Even the most cursory and superficial understanding of Christianity must acknowledge that it is, if taken seriously, radically countercultural.  An active, living faith in Christ our Redeemer is a mighty challenge to the vulgarity, gross materialism, and godless secularity of our times.  It is all to the good that the new translation of the liturgy employs a language and elevated style more suitable for the worship of God than the one it is replacing.  When we pray this way, it will certainly help to lead us away from the temptations of sex, money and power—the gods our our times—and incline us toward a consideration of the true, the good and the beautiful which attracts our souls to God.  This is a blessed thing for which we should all give thanks.

Fr. Barron,

Why the need to make a defensive-sounding caveat about the “old Mass” at the outset of your article?

Thank you for your work.

This is a very beautiful description of the reason for the changes and examples of how much they will add to the heartfelt prayers of the Mass.  Such huge changes can seem daunting, but I believe you’re absolutely right, that these will make us more attentive to what we’re praying, is a richer translation of the Latin, and that accepting this as a positive change is certainly the best way to go.

The best thing is to trust that the Holy Spirit guides the church and the changes made just might reflect the Will of God.  The new language for a few parts of the Mass is not difficult to comprehend and in a spirit of holiness we can adapt to it easily.  I loved the old Mass and look forward to attending it in Parishes that use this tradition.  No matter how the Mass is said,  I can still adore Christ….

Thiss is very sad. Direction in prayer, language, words are all so important. To have thrown away two thousand years of tradition for a Protestant liturgy is a pathetic reflection on the state of the Catholic world. This retranslation is a sorry attempt to dress up an adulteress as a faithful bride. The only solution is to cling to the doctrines, theology, piety and traditions of the past, not to accommodate to modern errors. The call should not be for religious liberty, but for Truth! Vatican II is not truth but error that contradicts the past and betrays the martrys in order to placate the modern world. It will not work, this adultery will be punished with fire by God!

I pray daily for the return of the Old Traditional Mass throughout the world.  The beauty, the reverence, the oneness is purely Catholic

Rick We do not neeed heretics on here writing about the Second Vatican Council as corruptand saying the Mass translations are protesant. Find your own literature and outlets. The SSPX movement has done too much damage alreeady. Please repent, snd sign the Pope’s amnesty document, lay off the Jews and come home. NO human language as Paul tells us to express the ineffable. We do our best and get behind the words to touch the reality. That kind of prayer, mystical prayer, keeps us from nagging about songs, imperfect translations and hankering for Latin.

Trish Great post, thank you.

Thank you Susan. Re the question to Fr Barron some of us had a tough time with the people rebelling because they coiuld now HEAR and UNDERSTAND and see the PRESIDER - they longed for the sloppy old Latin, I used serve Mass in Latin aNd saw and heard it up close from too many, certainly not all.  NOW a new crop is asked to make some slight changes and CHANGE HURTS in Liturgy, Law and Shopping - when the candy is moved to a different aisle, and MY W-M has that stuff somewhere else!!

Now that we’ve refined the language of the Mass, let’s get started on an overhaul of every song that’s been written since 1965.  I say that as a Novus Ordo Catholic, BTW.

This whole debate, fierce as it is, leaves me thinking about one of my favorite Christmas carols - The Little Drummer Boy.  Jesus doesn’t care what you bring, so long as you bring all that you have with a sincere heart. 

The new translation is here.  I accept that.  I also fully realize that in many ways for me personally it might be a good thing - I will have to really pay attention rather than work my way through mass via rote memory.  And certainly the new language will elevate the Mass above the day to day discourse I personally try to have with God.  I can’t go around all day thinking words like consubstantial, but perhaps using them in Mass will remind me that this is when you step outside of your own personal life to connect with other believers and celebrate the central character of our faith.

I’m just not yet sure that any of this will help us be more sincere, and that is what we seem to need the most help with. At least I do.  And many other young Catholics I have spoken with about this.  I am really struggling to live this faith, to hear God’s voice in my life and honor His will.  As the pope recently said, let us not become a people who go through the motions of Mass once a week and never aim to seek God’s presence in the world at large. 

Bring on the new translation.  But please do not dismiss me because I am hesitant to think this is of the utmost importance.  Your faith is likely greater than mine and your understanding deeper.  Perhaps you could say a prayer for those people in my shoes?  No matter my blunt and casual words, I can assure you I am sincere. The Little Drummer Boy is certainly no O Holy Night, but that’s where I’m at right now.

Maybe not a literal return to the “old Mass”.  It does return the spiritual nature lost by the Novus Ordo.  I never stopped saying: ... but only say the word and my soul shall be healed, nor et cum spiritu tuo.  Thank God for EWTN for its spiritual adaptation of the Novus Ordo and for giving Communion using only the Host. Receiving Communion twice seemed such a waste of wine and resulted in the contamination of the sacred vessel by non-consecrated hands.  What a shame we can’t always receive Communion from Consecrated hands as before

I pray that the rising tide of the new, more elegant translations will lift the whole liturgical barque—especially as it concerns liturgical music. At present we are stuck with a Hobson’s choice of rehashing 70s and 80s schlock or the current wave of “praise and worship” music, which is fine for coffee house perfomance or youth retreats, but has no place in the noble simplicity of the Roman rite.

Pope St. Pius V was right.  His was the true Mass.  Paul VI was wrong. His is the false mess.  We are seeing the consequences.  The Virgin of La Salette forewarned us and World War III is around the corner as predicted by the Virgin of Fatima.

“That this in no way represents a return to “the old Mass,” Yes that nasty old thing. Fr Baron please tone it down. The Old Mass is the Mass of the Council. What we have now was produced AFTER the Council. A fiat accompli that appeared in 1970.The new translation shows that ICEL hoodwinked us all in the 1970’s. Many knew it but were called traitors and enemies of Vatican II. Many stopped going to Mass. So my point is what we have now was not authorised or envisaged by th bishops at Vatican II. Where in the Council documents are 3 new eucharistic prayers authorised? Childrens eucharistic prayers? The use of the vernacular throughout the entire Mass? Mass facing the people? Communion on the hand?A three year liturgical cycle? Removal of useless repetition meant the custom of reading readings in latin then the vernacular. Where are eucharistic processions for the bread and wine during the Mass? We could go on and on. All of these things are all the product of a man and his little hand selected committee called Bugnini who used the name of Vatican II to introduce bogus customs and destroy apostolic tradition. When he was exposed and sent as Nuncio in Iran during the revolution he died there. The Church being what it is found it just all too hard to undo and how do you withdraw so many documents that Bugnini published after the Council?
While the Church might think in centuries we laity only have 70 years or so if we are lucky. How can the leadership of the Church think it is business as usual. It isn’t and many Catholics were given false example and false expectations. How many souls have gone to hell because of all of this?

Thank you, Father Barron, for once again showing us the riches the Church is bringing out of Her store. I hope to treasure them in my heart as I ponder what the Lord is saying to me. Your final example, however, gives me cause for concern. To “meet your Christ with righteous deeds at his coming, so that, gathered at his right hand, they [the faithful] may be worthy to possess the heavenly Kingdom.” seems to imply that my righteous deeds make me worthy to possess the heavenly Kingdom, whereas I understood the Church’s teaching to be that Christ’s infinite and eternal Sacrifice on the Cross in which I share at the Mass is what makes me worthy to possess His Kingdom. Rather than righteous deeds making me worthy, don’t these deeds flow from His work within me, allowing me a share in his life and death?

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/why-the-new-missal-will-be-good-for-the-mass#ixzz1eocJxYNT

Just received your 11/25 reply here today Jeh. That is profound, humble and sincere. Even if Mass were in Swahili by bringing that spirit and attitude you will be fed by the Body and Blood and your faith deepened and your ability to minister to your peers. I presume you are familiar with the parable JESUS told of the bragging Pragging Pharisee telling GOD how good he was, looking down at the humble sinner in the back.  Many of the posts here and criticisms of the translations are like the destructively critical pharisee who missed the whole point of worship, be aware of your own need for Grace, love the guy in the back pew, stop criticising the choir or the homilist or the music. AS for you Wwolfrano, get off your INFALLIBLE SSPX soapbos and come on back home. IF you do not get out of this site which is for CATHOLICS who follow the Church’S TRADITION, guided by the 2100 story, under the Bishop of Rome.Not an emotionally disturned/ mentallly challenged Archbishop who said HE was RIGHT and 4000 bishops and the POPES since Vat 11 are wrong.

\\Receiving Communion twice seemed such a waste of wine and resulted in the contamination of the sacred vessel by non-consecrated hands.\\

In the Extraordinary Form, the Priest breaks the Host into three parts, and puts one part in the Chalice.

First he receives the two big parts of the Host, then the portion of the Host that is in the Chalice. Are you saying that the Priest would then be receiving Communion four times?

Next, in most Eastern Liturgies, Communion is normally received in both Species. Do these faithful receive Communion twice?

Finally, we are ALL totally consecrated by our Baptism.

Hermittalker, thank you for your comment. It is interesting that you remember the word heretic. As a reminder a heretic is one who denies Catholic dogma. Protasants do this, but VII calls them brothers. I do not do this and God willing never will. I am not SSPX because they deny the ordinary Magisterium of the Church. At the same time, I am curious as to what damage they have caused. The damage VII and its followers caused is manifest - destruction of the old mass, embracing the Masonic ideal of religious liberty, a Protestant liturgy, and a church filled with those who do deny Catholic dogma habitually. The list is far longer and would be happy to discuss it with you off line. I’d suggest reading II Thes., it describes a great falling away and prescribes holding fast to the Traditions of the Church. VII and her “popes” with a ferocity not know in history.
All I want is the teaching and practices of the Catholic Church as practiced thought the centuries. The honest ones among you will see this new translation as lipstick on a pig. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

MARK; The faith - the gift of forgivness by the Christ- is balanced by the response of Good Works of Matthew 25 - sheep and goats for not finding Jesus in the hurting or finding Him there. The word “rightgeous” is one I avoid, it is a gtranslation used in Protestantism and comes too close to self- r’eous to me. Just, faithful and others are less troublesome. AS to you, CHRIS ROBERTS. The documents of the Council led to their application. I got so frustrated with the anti-Vatican 11 and demonisers of Archbishop Bugnini a wonderful scholar. ALL liturgical books are approved by the Supreme Pontiffs, the Bishop of Rome, who are fae, false, heretical for you SSPX groupies so blaming +Bugnini is the wrong target. THE BISHOP OF ROME CELEBRATES FACING THE PEOPLE AND THE EUCHARIST IS KEPT IN A SEPARATE SIDE CHAPEL for starters. The ancient Church believers brought up the gifts of bread and wine and chickens for the clergy and the poor. Not a new invention, dropped when the Mass was taken from the people’s participation

Thank you Fr. Barron, so well written.

Now, how about a corrected rubrics?  The new translation is lipstick on a pig.  Bottom line.

Father Barron,
I enjoy your homilies and commentary very much, but I am disappointed that at the start of your article, you make it sound as if the Missal of 1962 was somehow a less than perfect thing that the Church was doing for centuries and needed to be corrected. This is simply not the case.  I attend the traditional Latin Mass regularly, and it has brought me to a much deeper and fuller understanding of the Mass in general, including when celebrated in the Ordinary Form.

Yet Jesus said the Kingdom of God belonged to children, and we are to have faith such as that of a child, and to approach our Heavenly Father, like children.  That’s what I have done for the past many years.  I don’t see how a more noble language, like Latin, changes anything important.  Seems like the noble Latin language pleases bishops, rather than God, who just wants us to humble ourselves before him, speaking whatever words are most natural for us.

The real catholic Mass disappeared officialy in 1969.  Since then it has been mayhem, chaos and lies.

What is the source of the antipathy to the EF Mass?  This is a mystery to me.  If understanding of all prayers is important we could have translated the RF Mass and accomplished the language difficulties.  But it is clear much more was intended. Well, the result was a mockery of the prayers the Council called “the source and summit of Christian worship.” It was once in Latin but it has not been since we have it in English.

I was young man at the time of the Council. Just started working in a Catholic hospital full of nuns and good Catholic faithful professionals. When the changes were announced, particularly to fasting and worship changes, the chatter in the workplace was surreal. First ” I cannot believe it” then the tone became disrespectful and criticism and derisive laughter flew about Catholic practices. One sentence I will never forget, ‘Sister, you mean I wont go to Hell if I eat meat of Friday?” Sister was quite and just ket on working.  The rest of us felt like soldiers on the town after three months of basic training.

The Council may have started with the best of intentions but the Devil was ready for the responsible prelates. The rest as they say is history.  The current state of the Church requires some serious correctives. Benedict XVI has started us on the road but the opposition to his reforms is fierce. No wonder, the Enemy is no ordinary, human reluctance to change. The Church will survive we have the assurance: the gates of hell etc. However, it is not said how or in what form.  One thing I am relatively sure, the Mass of the ages in 3011 will be much more like the TLM of 1962 than the NO of 2011. Catholic children in CCD may even be taught about St. Marcell Lefebre {sp.?).  I relatively sure it will not be ST. Roger M.

Outside the Mass of St. Pius V there is no catholic Mass but an anglican-lutheran-masonic-jewish bad copy of it.

Horrible that they changed it in the first place! And with 7 Protestant ministers there to formulate it.  The Novus Ordo Mass or NO Mass is closer recognizable as a Lutheran service than a Roman Catholic Mass.  My Patron Saint Teresa would hardly recognize it as Catholic today!

It’s disappointing that Fr. Barron opens with, “I would like to emphasize, at the outset, that this in no way represents a return to “the old Mass,” for the Latin texts that provide the basis for the new translation were all approved after Vatican II. ” I say, WHY NOT?

It’s not the “Old Mass” It’s the “Mass of all Time”, the Mass codified in the Council of Trent to be said in time and perpetuity, the “Tridentine Latin Mass”!

Saint Teresa would not have, and does not have, an issue with the direction of the Magisterium. That is one of the attributes of a Saint.
Have faith.

Arlene, well put!

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
2 Thes. 2:14

...this sacred synod urges all to forget the past…
Vatican II, declAration of the relation of the Church to the non-Christian world

Vatican II and it’s leaders, ceremonies and doctrines are the anti-tradition Church.

@ Arlene.  I agree completely with you, Arlene.  Today, the Church plays down the horrible, unspeakable crime of substituting the True Mass with an anglican service that has a lutheran consecration, a masonic invocation to the grand architect of the universe and the jewish blessing of meals said at a jewish dinner table.

WILFRANO ARLENE and RICK; Get right with the CHURCH OIF JESUS CHRIST. Get the facts straight about the fake post as to who wrote the texts for the MASS approved by PAUL VI and the BXV1 re-translations. SSPX are heretical, destructive of JESUS ONE CHURCH. Abp Levebre was a stand alone heretic. Get off this site please and talk in the DARK CORNER with the other sadly erroneous few.  Welcome of course if you stop stirring it up here. PAX VOBIS

Hermittalker,
I’d suggest YOU get the facts. For example you accuse Abp. Levefbre as a heretic. A heretic is one who denies Catholic dogma, he did not do this. Nor was he accused of doing this. Even the VII popes did not condemn him as a heretic. It is the VII popes who deny dogma in word and action.

Secondly, the Vatican II Church is NOT the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ has condemned this modern monstrosity for 2,000 years.

Stop hiding behind false authority and face the facts. If you have the courage, email me directly and we can discuss it. So far you just want to toss ignorant accusations at people who love the traditions, teachings and person of Jesus and who suffer to hold to these in the face of those trying to destroy them.

If your heart does not break at the outrages committed, then there is only a stone where a heart should be.

I love the new Roman Missal even though I must confess I was looking at the new responses and the old ones would come out of my mouth. I know I’ll get there. I think the change also helps to shake people out of the rut of just going through the motions. This way they actually have to put some effort into participation.

How can I discuss with you Rick? He denied the validity of Vat 11, said the MASS text of Paul V1, was fake, started a new Shrub, torn from the TREE OF LIFE, the Vine whlo is Christ.He got his heretical buttocks excommunicated for ordaining bishops without a papal mandate.The SSPX is heretical, divisive all based on not knowing history, hating Jews in denial of JESUS lOVE ONME ANOTHER command, and other Catholic dogma and the role of Peter and his succesors in Mt 16 and 18 as Bishop of Rome, not to mention the I AM WITH YOU against the GATES OF HELL at the end of MT. IF they recant, sign the Vatican reconciliation document of HH BZV1, they are in union with the CATHOLIC APOSGTOLIC FAITH. You can frecant privately and be HOME FOR CHRISTMAS.  Otherwise get a new bummper sticker SSPX ROGANT MISSA HERETICA, SCHISMATICA IN LINGUA LATINA. OR ANOTHER NEW ONE IN ENGLISH ; SSPX ALL OUT OF STEP EXCEPT US.

HermitTalker,
There are 2 lines of reasoning:
1) Vatican II is of the Church
The Church is infallible
Therefore Vatican II is invallible
2) Vaticn II is heretical
The Church is infallible
Therefore Vatican II is not of the Church
Vatican II counterdics word for word the Church’s teaching on Religious Liberty, Ecumenism, it’s relation to non-Christian Religions.

The Church can not counterdict itself. The solution lays in what Pope Paul IV, Robert Bellarmine and the IV Lateran Council taught which is if a pope falls into PUBLIC HERESY, he can not be the pope.

I do not and will deny the pope’s infallability! Yet anyone who believes the teachings of Vatican II denies (at least implicitly) the infallible teaching of the Church. This is the reason the new Church is constantly bashing the old one and apologizing for it.

I want to be very clear, that I am not part of SSPX because they deny the ordinary Magisterium of the Church. You deny the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Church. The only argument you have against this post Vatican II nonsense it authority. Try to argue the facts, and you will be at a loss.

It gives me comfort that you and your new Church embraces the Jews, Protestants, Schismatics, and even Athiests as brothers but rejects those who want to follow the Church of all times as heretics. This is because you have the same father as the above - the father of lies.

You should change your name from Hermit Talker to HermitReader or HermitPrayer because you are much more need of study and prayer than you are of words.

Talk all you want.  Arlene and I have the sole truth: “Today, the Church plays down the horrible, unspeakable crime of substituting the True Mass with an anglican service that has an anglican minister, a lutheran consecration, a masonic invocation to the grand architect of the universe, a pagan offering of vegetables from the supermarket, hindu belly dancers and the jewish blessing of meals said at a jewish dinner table.”

Thank you, Rick.Before I became a HermitTalker I started out as a child listening, learning and passing tests to the Ph D level to study, pray about and practice as faithfully as I could what being a Roman Catholic Christian is. I was advanced for confirmation at age 7 and can still see the examining priest, which was then part of the ritual asking me what papal infallibility meant.  Then he asked “Could the pope find his way to (the nearest big town). I said no Father, I would have to show him. That was age 7!
The Pope can privately and personally fall into heresy,  but none ever has ever proclaimed that infallinbly, so private opinions and personal ideas and his own moral character do not negate that.
As we say in Logic 101 you beg the question. Even if you are not formally SSPX you seem to accept papal infallibility, and not say we are now sede vacantis, in fact you do since you deny the Council’s decisions and reject it. Add the Pope because a Council with the Pope’s decisions do not err in matters of doctrine. Infallilility is broader than when he sits on his cathedra and invokes the apostles Peter and Paul and has consulted the whole Church etc. Only used twice for Mary as it referred to her role as the Mother of the Saviour.
THE KEY QUESTION for you Rick is: in what way did the Pope and Council deny JESUS’  teaching? Specifically and with no extra verbiage:did Jesus die for us all, did he from the Cross say Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing- Jews and pagan Romans were right there? 
Show me and the Church wherein the Council and the psst -conciliar Church have fallen from JESUS’ Gospel and His TEACHER authority which HE promised to protect with his authority and mandate.

Seems a longer post is awaiting their Spam Censor Rick. This is a follow-up which may come first or #1 not posted!
JESUS said LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Forgive your enemies. When told some folks were not of HIS circle but teaching HIS material, “Whoever is not against us is with us.” I noted in #1 to come I hope. from the CROSS, Father forgive me they do’t know what they are doing.” Without any great reasoning there us a defense of ecumenism and interfaith dialogue, The religious liberty decree said that each human being is sacred, has rights and dignity. Also a CONSCIENCE so we cannot force their consciences. THE PRE-VAT 11 popular teaching was that ERROR has no RIGHTS, which is TRUE but the HUMAN PERSON who is in error does. IF she/he wants to be in the TRUTH and wishes to join the RCC and has the Gift of Faith she/he must submit. No contradiction but SSPX still seems to be having trouble with that.

MY reply to you Rick this morning still awaits a pass from their SPAM GATEKEEPER.  Had asked you how you can reconcile loyalty to the MAGISTERIUM with accusing VAT 11 and its Pope and his successors of heresy. AS for you WOLFRANO and ARLENE you follow a newer version of Protestantism but do it in LATIN. Heretici et Schismatici.

HermitTalker,
There is a lot to reply to and too much for a blog. Your last question gets to the heart of the matter.  This is very question I struggled with for years:
How can the Catholic Church an infallible institution produce Vatican II which is substantially different than the previous 2k years both accidentally and substantially? This was a crisis of faith and I had to walk blind believing. I felt Jesus asking me the question in John 6, will you too leave me? I had no other answer than John’s, “Lord where shall I go?”

Then the Lord showed me the answer buried in the Fifth Latern Council. This council explicitly teaches that a heretic that is elected to the Papacy is not a pope and the lay people are to withdrawal their obedience without repute.

This caused me to do more research and I found so much material on this topic is was astounding. The code of canon law 1884 says: There are certain causes which effect the tacit resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of law, and hence is effective without any declaration. One of the causes is if one publically defected from he Catholic faith.

Pope Paul IV wrote in Cum Ex Aposolatus Officious in Feb 1559:
That if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop…or even the Roman Pontif, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontif has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy ... shall be null, void and worthless. It goes on to say that the laity shall withdrawal from him with impunity and that they should be avoided as warlocks, Hethans, publicans and heresiarchs. Paul IV also says that a heretical “pope” would be the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel.

Pope Innocent III says in his Sermon 4:
Still the less can the Roman Pontif glory ... If for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged. In such a case it should be said of him: If salt should loose its savor, it is good for nothing but to be trampled underfoot by men.

Robert Bellarmine in his De Romano Pontifices, Book II, Ch 30 shows that a Pope that falls into public heresy can not be pope because he can not be the head of which he is not a member..

St Francis de Sales says, Now when the Pope is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Chruch. Catholic Controversy.

St. Alphonsus, if ever a pope, as a private person, fell into heresy, he would at once fall from the pontificate.

HermitTalker, there are many more examples, and I hope I have not given too many and caused a headache! But as you can see the answer became clear. The evils which emanated from Vatican II and afterward did not come from the Church because JXXIII, PVI, JPII and BXVI are not popes, but the abomination of desolation in the hol place.

If you want a detailed description of the state of the True Church today read Lamentations. This was written in the wake of the Babylonian captivity which lasted 70 years. The Second Babylonian captivity occurred when there we’re multiple claimants to the papcy with no certainty which was the true pope. This also lasted 70 years. We are in the third Babylonian captivity.

The most common and legitimate objection is that Christ promised to be with his Church until the end of the ages and that this universal apostacy would constitute the gates of hell overcoming the Church.

The Lord has shown me that Satan did not overcome him on the cross and that although his body was dead in the tomb, victory was at hand. The Church being the body of Christ, follows the life of Christ and was to be betrayed by his own at a council that met in the night, and condemned him to death. Yet victory is near at hand for St Paul tells us that, if the cutting of the Jews off from the vine caused such a great good as the conversion of the gentiles what shall the grafting on mean but life from the dead?!

It is prophesied in scripture that the returning of the Jews to Jersalem marks the end of the time of the Gentiles. The Jews returned in 1948 and Vatican Council closed in 1965. This was the great apostasy spoke of through out the new testament but perhaps most clearly in 2nd Thes. In this book we are told to hold to the traditions. Never in the history of the Church has there been such a ferocious attack on those trying to do just that.

You attack me as a heretic and schismatic for wanting tnothing more than the eternal mass and traditions and teachings of the Church. This is my birth right. The Pontif’s job is to defend these things for me and my children; not to forbid them from me and make me a criminal for wanting them!

Meanwhile, your popes, kiss Korans, praise Luther as having a profound religious spirit, say that the Unbelieving Jews are your older brothers in the faith, that schismatics are raised in the faith of Christ and that the right to religious liberty comes from the dignity of man. The mass of all times has been exchanged for one that is now word for word the same as the Lutheran and Anglecan liturgies.

You have unfortunately Fulfilled the the Freemasonic prophecy:
In a hundred years time…bishops and priest will think they are marching behind the banner of the keys of Peter when in fact they will be following our flag…the reforms will have to be brought about in he name of obedience.
Alta Vendita

Just as the Jewish city of Jerusalm was destroyed for their perfidity and the covanent was moved to Rome and only a rennet of Jews followed the Christ, so will Rome be destroyed in fire for its perfidity and the covanent will be returned to the converted Jews in Jerusalem, unfortuately only a remnant of gentiles will follow the Christ. I pray you are among them!

In Christ,
rick

@ HermitTalker.

Disputatio omnibus velis. Arlene sum solus veritas: “Hodie, Ecclesia deorsum agit scelus tam horrendum ineffabile vero Missam de loco, cui cum militiae ANGLICANUS ANGLICANUS ministri, Lutherana consecrationem a Cimentarius invocatione ad insigne artificis mundi paganus de vegetabilibus supermarket oblatio, et dancers Praesent ventre Iudaicae benedictio prandium cenam dixit Iudaeorum mensam. “

@ HermitBabbler: 

I have decided to spare you the trouble of translating into a language (latin) you know nothing about the following text:

“Talk all you want.  Arlene and I have the sole truth: “Today, the Church plays down the horrible, unspeakable crime of substituting the True Mass with an anglican service that has an anglican minister, a lutheran consecration, a masonic invocation to the grand architect of the universe, a pagan offering of vegetables from the supermarket, hindu belly dancers and the jewish blessing of meals said at a jewish dinner table.”

Translation:

“Disputatio omnibus velis. Arlene sum solus veritas: “Hodie, Ecclesia deorsum agit scelus tam horrendum ineffabile vero Missam de loco, cui cum militiae ANGLICANUS ANGLICANUS ministri, Lutherana consecrationem a Cimentarius invocatione ad insigne artificis mundi paganus de vegetabilibus supermarket oblatio, et dancers Praesent ventre Iudaicae benedictio prandium cenam dixit Iudaeorum mensam. “

WULFRANO: How do you know I do not know Latin/  I started learning it at age age 11, along with Greek, had a clasical European education in the Humanities.  Studied philosophy and Aquinas in Latin. I taught and lived in the US for 47 years, that included University Humanities, until my being confined to a wheel-chair sent me back to Europe. I used tell Americans"you can speak no foreign language, beginning with English.
Your Latin stinks. But sadly not as bad as your theology is innacurate on several places and heretical in others. Your calling me BABBLER and accusing me of not knowing Latin shows yoy cannot make your point without an argumentum ad hominem.
RICK; I deeply appreciate your sincerity and respectful post to me about your own dilemma and spiritual battle. As my lost post said yerserday, you beg the question(s).  How and in what way (1) did HH Paul VI and his successors and the whole world’s bishops at Vat 11 with HH JXX111 who died before it ended,  and since fall into heresy including the recent approval of the translation of the Latin of the Paul V1 Missale Romanum by HH BXV1 (2) What were those specific errors which made us all heretics, schismatics and Freemasons? Do you believe there was some conspiracy at work to smoke the HOLY SPIRIT out of the Basilica of St Peter’s where the debates and decisions at VAT11 were worked out and over the entire Vatican Curia, the Pope’s government apparatus?
I am scared of the SPAM notice that plagues me here, so please allow me to correspond with you from .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). I am correcting the translation I did of a Jesuit Missionary’s personal History of evenelising and travels of his area, and his personal Memoirs from Latin and French 9for the Memoirs and doing some other writing. THE type is larger and not subject to being demped as spam. Would answer WULFRANO’s false fake objections also if those are what you also believe.

rick Just lost another reply unless they post after their SPAM GATEKEEPER okays it. Get me please on .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). Am now correcting some translations from Latin and French of a pioneer SJ missionary and other new personal writings for publication, but do take time out for NCR and other sites and shall for you, larger type helps. WULFRANO Not ONLY did you call be BABBLER, you said I did not know Latin while your own Latin stinks, grammatically and worse theologically. stinks                                                                                   smel                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           l, grammatically and theologically. YOU are an uneducated

I am a Roman Catholic. I hold fast to the truths taught from Rome.  I do not accept innovations to my faith.  I am a firm believer in the dogmas and doctrines of the church and what the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra.  Instead of saying that the SSPX is so bad, let’s look at the Saint whose name that they take after:  Pope Saint Pius X.  He took down modernism in his time but warned us that if we did not keep watch, it would come back into the church and even stronger.  Pope Saint Pius X implemented an oath against modernism that all religious and instructors in the Catholic church were supposed to take.  They did away with it after Vatican II as well as many other things that should never have happened.

I judge things by their fruits.  Before Vatican II (pastoral council) all Catholic families were practicing, hardly a divorce or abortion around… post Vatican II it is hard to find a Catholic family where anyone really practices their faith.  Too much emphasis on the importance of Vatican II is placed when we really should focus on the DOGMATIC council of Trent.

Compare the fruit that has come from the Tridentine Latin Mass codified in the council of Trent to the fruit from the Novus Ordo Mass co-written by 7 Protestant ministers at a pastoral (non-doctrinal) council.  The crisis in the church speaks volumes.

Fellow Catholics, I think Hermittalker is either so puffed up in his own pride of his accomplishments that he is blind to the truth or he is a FreeMason or communist trying to destroy the church from within, such as depicted in the “The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita: Masonic Blueprint for the Subversion of the Catholic Church” and “AA-1025: The Memoirs of a Communist’s infiltration in to the Church.”

Let us pray for each other to be strengthened in the TRUTHS of our faith,lest we all fall.  For the devil loves a church divided against itself as it is most likely to fail.

Posted by Rick on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 2:01 PM to HermitTalker-
“There are 2 lines of reasoning:
1) Vatican II is of the Church.
The Church is infallible.
Therefore Vatican II is infallible.

2) Vatican II is heretical.
The Church is infallible.
Therefore Vatican II is not of the Church.
Vatican II counterdics word for word the Church’s teaching on Religious Liberty, Ecumenism, it’s relation to non-Christian Religions…”

Is it possible for there to be a 3rd choice?  Such as:
3) The Deposit of Faith in the Bible is what we need to know, in order to enjoy eternal salvation.  The Bible tells us the Body of Christ has many parts, so non-Catholic Christians are a part of His Body, as are Catholics.  Therefore, doctrines & dogmas coming out of councils after the death of the last apostle are fallible?  Some may be good.  Some may not be good.  The Deposit of Faith shows us how to discern the good from the bad.

Father Barron I am not Catholic but I must say this new missal may only be a vast improvement of the “Liturgy of the Hours” and the New Liturgy. I am Anglican and have found the same problems when the AC moved to re-write the 1549 and 1662 Book of Common Prayer. I am going to order my copy of the New Missal asap. Thank you for a very clear and concise explanation. The real problem I think having studied catholic Theology for many years was the new liberalizing element which came out of Vat ll and the commendable intention to seek and reach the common folk. Unfortunately what people often do not realize is that the “common people” have more nouse than they are given credit for. However we still do not seem to have learnt that the old ways are often the well tested and tried ways - after all still the only way to the Father is through the Son in the power of the Spirit! That the theology of the old “latin text"as you have so clearly demonstrated does NOT lead to difficulties in understanding the text but rather a richer and fuller meaning being given to a text already there but which had for whatever reason been drastically expurgated.

@ Rick.  Thank you, Rick, for the wonderful summary you give of the Apostasy of the Church.

@ Arlene.  Thank you, Arlene, for giving us strength to continue the fight against the Apostates of the Church.

@ Hermit.  You did a lot of studying but very little learning.  Memorize what Rick puts in his Summary and stop babbling.

The SSPX heretical schismatics use the name of Pius X erroneously. in part they claim that the MISSALE ROMANUM of a predecessor namesake ST PIUS V,  re-wrote the loiturgical books as a response to the 16th c. Revolt-amation and dropped all and every one of the various rites used in medieval Europe. St Pius V was the Dominican friar who gave us the white cassock of the papacy, modeled on the Dominican habit. VAT11 had nothing to do with Communism, Liberalism, Lady Gaga,  Elvis or the Freemasons of seven Protestants with Freemason Annibale Bugnini, secretary to the Curia’s worship commission. SSPX has its own “Jesuits shot Lincoln” “JFK was killed by the CIA”  and “9/11 was planned by “W” ” and other reckless conspiracy theories.  The core of the Mass HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM/HIS EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI etc was the same then as is now; obvioiusly translated from JESUS’ Aramaic, to the Greek to the LATIN typical edition of the MISSALE ROMANUM and revised, with the same authority from JESUS CHRIST guided by the same Holy Spirit who was promised to keep the was CHURCH free from doctrinal error as HE did for Pius V. Arlene attacking my character, and accusing me of being communist-freemason and rejected my Catholic orthodoxy when I said that i set aside my own-God given gifts of intelligence and education to submit to the faith I have in JESUS CHRIST’s CHURCH.  You as a SSPX-er follow their arrogance, lack of historic truth, total misunderstanding of Liturgy, how the Church actually works and how it is preserved from DOCTRINAL ERROR by the Holy Spirit. Then spread your illogical conspiracy theories and slander and libel others.

WULFRANO; You and Arlene are heretical and schismaic and you both like to stir it up. THIS TOPIC is ABOUT THE RANSLATION of the MASS TEXTS of the ROMAN MISSAL from the Bishop of Rome. It is not for dissenting, insulting heretical-schismatic small minds who attack but give no arguments to contradict facts of history, liturgy and Church Doctrine. I shall continue to communicate with the respectfully questioning Rick with whom I shall continue on hotmail.com hfbhermitage. I shall honour his respectful search but want you two off here as stirrers of crud. Talk to your own SSPX narrow circle of CLOSED MINDS. Made up, do not confuse with facts so do not bother me on y e-mail. RICK use NCR MASS as subject please to avoid going into JUNK.

Tera, the administrator has withheld my lt post. It’s very frustrating to not get the liberty of speach that VII pleads for. The truth is that they only want the liberty of error.
No it is not possible that catholic and Protestant Chruchs a different parts of the same body. This is yet another error of Vatican II, and I thank you for pointing it out. te technical laguage from the false council is that the Church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church. this of course implies that it subsists elsewhere as well. the TRUTH is he Chruch of Christ IS the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church IS the bride of Christ and the body of Christ.

ProwstNts by very definition protest the Catholic Church and therefore Christ Himself. ALL Catholics in ALL tmes have ALWAYS known with the certainty of Divine faith that heretics, schismatics, and apostates are of the devil. this is further proof that those of the Vatican Church do not have the true faith. as we can see from these posts they hate those who want the eternal faith and love those who possess every error.

RICK; I repeat my invitation to meet me on hotmail. You have an errorous understanding of baptism,  Vat 11 decree on religious liberty, the Mass, our relationship with Jews. Just this one point from LUKE Father forgive them, they do not know what they do. So you and the SSPX disagree not only with the Church but also with JESUS? Is a baptism null and void if performed in the name of the (Trinity) by a Methodist paator?  Or is the baptized one a member of Jesus Body the Church even if separated from HIS fullness of oneness, holines truth and apostolic?

HermitTalker,
I’m happy to meet you on hotmail. You need to know that I do not disagree with the Church. If I say anything that contradicts any writing of a Pope, or council, please let me know, because I want to believe with submission all the Church and therefore Christ teaches. If you want to know what I believe in regards to Baptism of desire etc, look in the Roman Catechism.
Vatican II disagrees with the Church. For some reason you and the new church has a hard time admitting that Protestants are heretics and that the unbelieving Jews belong to the synagogue of Satan as the Scriptus clearly teach.
BTW, Tera, this is impossible becauses the Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church. Protestants and Catholics do not belong to the same Church for they do not have the ONE faith. thank you for pointing out the VII error.

Ps how do I meet you on hotmail?

Thank you Rick. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). It is my bedtime here in IRELAND to watch TV a while after a long day writing, and sitting on my wheel-chair ex cathedra! Use subject RICK FROM NCR please to keep you away from my JUNK.

Rick, you wrote that Vatican II disagrees with the Church, and the “new church” has a hard time admitting that Protestants are heretics.

Secondly, you wrote the Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church, and Protestants and Catholics do not belong to the same Church for they do not have the ONE faith. But…....

“The Deposit of Faith” for all Christians is belief in these points:
*in the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit: co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent; one Creator God in three distinct Persons.
*that Jesus is the Son of God, the Word made Flesh, whose life was prophecied in the Old Testament (will be born in Bethlehem, will be born of a virgin, etc.) who lived, died, rose from the dead, & who will come again & reign forever on a new earth.
*that His shed blood on Calvary was payment for all our sin
*that when we believe in Him as our substitute, we, guilty sinners before a holy God, are made children of the Father, deemed “Justified” by the Father, and we then live our lives IN Christ, with Him as “Lord” over us, and trying not grieve the Holy Spirit.
*that we accept the command to spread The Gospel to those that do not know Jesus, and become participants in the Great Commission.
*that we meet on the Lord’s Day, staying in Communion with each other, to edify each other, and fulfilling His command, “Do this, in memory of Me”.
*that we believe because He lives, we too, shall live with Him in Heaven, Jesus being only the first to be raised from the dead.

Regarding - “Protestants are heretics”:
If Protestants accept the points in the Deposit of Faith, they are Christian, and in the Body of Christ.

Regarding - “Protestants and Catholics do not have ONE faith”:
There is only One Body of Christ, One Bride of Christ, One Church of Christ.  There is only One Bridegroom = Jesus.  Billy Graham is in the Church. 

It is unrealistic to paint Protestants with a broad brush, as many are now apostate and not holding to the original tenets of the faith, such as not grieving the Holy Spirit by calling good, bad, and bad, good (I refer to matters of immorality, that we know grieve God.)  Billy Graham has always taught God-honoring morals, and non-Catholic Christians I know are very moral, believing all that is taught in the Deposit of Faith.

By your reasoning, America’s Pastor, Billy Graham, is a heretic.  But the most liberal Catholic politicians that creates ungodly laws for us, is in the Body of Christ, just because they are Catholic.  Your reasoning is not Scriptural, and it is against what Jesus’ prayer was for His Church, that we “be one” just as Jesus and the Father, are One.  Vatican II made great progress towards seeing Jesus’ prayer fulfilled.

Tera,
Your definition of the deposit of faith is just that, “your definition”. It is NOT the Catholic definition. a Catholic is one who believes ALL that the church believes. Protestants, no matter how you want to slice them, all teach Scripture Alone and Faith Alone. the first denies the magisterium and Jesus himself, when he said, He who hears you, hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, rejects him who sent me.
Since Protestants reject the Magistium, the reject Jesus and therefor reject God Himself, just as Satan did.

By faith alone, they deny Scriputre, Do you know that you are not saved by faith alone. They also reject hope and Charity.
there is a dogma, that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. You are rejecting this Catholic dogma.

Of course Billy Grahm is a heretic, this should be obvious.

It would be helpful if you did not put words in my mouth. the most liberal Catholics have no refuge. First by being liberal, by definition, they are not Catholics. Second in regards to their morals, they are in the state of mortal sin. Anyone who dies in the state of mortal sin goes to hell.

You should also know that the bishops are committing a grave sin by not making this clear to all and should have excommunicated them long ago. But the problem is that the bishops are heretics and profess religious liberty which is defined by all people having the right to believe what they want.

A Catholic who dies in the state of mortal sin is punished far worse than an atheist who dies in the state of mortal sin because to who much is given, much is expected.

Your last sentence again points to even another error of Vatican II. You as did the council indicates that the Church is NOT one and that we need to work towards this. this is blasphemy, for the body and bride of Christ is and always will be one, because there is one body and one faith.

Nothing I am saying is of me or is new, it is all traditional catholic church teaching. By the fact you are arguing and VII taught it, proves that you belong to a new Church that repress the great falling away described in 2 Thes. During this time we are to cling to the Traditions. I can’t even count the traditions that the VII church has destroyed for they are as the stars of heaven!

Dear Terah.  I cannot believe you defending Protestants.  Protestants blaspheme against Our Lady so often and so horribly that the only conclusion is that they are outside the Mystical Body of Christ.

Writing to rick on hotmail.com. Wish to clarify here that after the Famoly Row at the Revolt-amation, my name for the 16th c activitities, we as Roman C C stressed the differences and not the teachings we had in common. Vat 11 was a humble recognition that we are all baptised in the Name of the Holy TRINITY which makes us One Lord One Faith and One Baptism. IF any Christian personally accepts the correct core teachings she is in the ONE BODY.  The differences are less than the agreements for the core key believers. We are not talking about those clerics or laoity who deny the Trinity and accept a-moral ethical teachings, nor are we into the nah-nah nah kiddies stuff that compares their devout to our “leftists.”  We honour Dr Graham as a pproclaimer of the Gospel, and all others less well known who are Jesus’ sisters and brothers. We chat, listen and dioalogue work for the most vulnerable to show that what is in or out of our heads is less important for now, than what we do in our pershomhood with HIS BODY, the sick, imprisoned and naked, hungry etc.

HermitTalker, you should be clear that this is your opinion and not the teaching of the Catholic Church, which has always been that one departure from the Catholic Faith is deadly. Poisin is well over 90% healthy, otherwise the victim would not detect the danger. None the less much like posin kills the body, so heresy kills the soul.

So you can continue posting, but everyone reading needs to know that your posts are not Catholic but heretical. there is no salvation outside the Caholic Church, and that Jesus commanded both baptism and faith.
The Catholic Faith is the faith of Christ.
The Protestant faith is not the Catholic Faith.
therefore the Protestant faith is the the faith of Christ.

the faith of Christ is required for salvation.
Te Protestant faith is not the faith of Christ.
Therefo Protestants are not saved.
this is dogmatic, and not my opinion. Your arguing against it is a public defection from the Catholic Faith and therefore Christ. PLEASE don’t do this. We need to humbly return to our Father’s house and believe all that the Church has always taught in the name of Christ.

@HermitTalker
You have it wrong…..
While there is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Church (i.e. the Universal Church, the fullness of the Truth). Those persons who are ignorant of the True Church can be saved through the Church, yet anyone who knowingly and willing leaves the Catholic Church (the fullness of the Truth; the Church established by Jesus Christ) cannot be saved.

Just wrote you on hotmail as we agreed. IF this is your “Final Answer” after reading me on there, I am getting off this topic; it is about the texts of the Mass. Nor a place where insults and accusations of heresy and ignorance are thrown around with NOT A SCRAP OF EVIDENCE, DEFENCE or showing where or why.
“IS and IS NOT ” is for fueding siblings or neighbourhood fights, not mature adult conversations,same for Wulfrano’s caca.

I am taking off my shoes, kneeling on HOLY GROUND, now that JESUS the JUDGE of the HUMAN HEART has given authority and power to people on here to decide who is INSIDE HIS MERCY, OUTSIDE HIS CHURCH and THOSE ON THE FAST SHUTTLE FOR HELL.

Rick- what’s your proof for claiming, “Of course Billy Graham is a heretic, this should be obvious.”  That is not at all obvious to me.  Will you please elaborate for me?

You wrote, “Since Protestants reject the Magistium, the reject Jesus and therefore reject God Himself.”  What about the Middle Ages, when there were popes that even our Catholic theologians admit were not good, such as the De Medici popes that bought and sold church roles?  By rejecting those bad popes (and the Magistium that allowed them to remain in office) was it rejecting God Himself?

You wrote, “the most liberal Catholics have no refuge. First by being liberal, by definition, they are not Catholics. Second in regards to their morals, they are in the state of mortal sin.”  What is a liberal Catholic, in your opinion?  I don’t understand the criteria for your term.  Is being “liberal” simply abiding by the teachings of Vatican II?
Of bishops that do not teach the flock in their diocese, you wrote, “the problem is that the bishops are heretics”. 

Isn’t that a Catch 22 Catholics are supposed to believe bishops, as bishops speak for God. Yet, when we believe them, Catholics such as yourself call us “liberal” and heretics, because the men in power trusted with teaching and leading us are, as you called them liberal heretics themselves.  Are we to disregard our own bishops, and follow what YOU say and think, Rick?  I find that troubling.

Wulfrano Ruiz Sainz wrote:
“Dear Terah.  I cannot believe you defending Protestants.  Protestants blaspheme against Our Lady so often and so horribly that the only conclusion is that they are outside the Mystical Body of Christ.”

Our non-Catholic Christian brethern do not need to be defended, and I wonder how do non-Catholic Chrisitians blaspheme against Mary?

All Christians honor Mary, for her role in God the Father’s plan for our salvation, not to pray to her is not blaspheming.

Dear Tera,
To day is a wonderful day to answer this question! his is the vigil of the Immaculate Conception! Tomorrow we celebrate the day that Mary, by the power of God completely overcame the power of the devil, and sin. God prevented even the taint of original sin from touching the soul of Mary and thereby she crushed the head of Satan! Mary is our glory, our Queen and our Mother. She is the greatest work of all creation. She protects, guards, and provides for her children! even befo the wine is low, she replaces it.
Protestants:
1. Deny the sinless ness of Mary.
2. Deny that she has intercession power with God. God by nate has an obligation to grant all her requests because she is his Motther and a son has an obligation to be obedient and respect his Mother.
3. Deny her perpetual virginity and purity and by consequence her perfect and sole union with God that onl virginity can bring.
4. The sacrifice that she made for us. It was a lance that was to pierce her soul, so that the thought of many may be revealed.
This is why St. Louie de Montfort taught that the love one bears Mary reveals the love they bear Christ. Just as Protestants have a cold and indifferent feeling towar Mary so they truly feel towards Jesus. She through her suffering has revealed their thoughts that lie covered beneath the deceit of their words.
No one has loved, suffered or done as much for Jesus than Mary. We should love and respect her as Jesus does and expects us to.

Thank you for your question, for it gets to the heart of the matter. He who does not have Mary as his Mother does not have God for his Father! Since ProtestNts do to have Mary for their Mother, they do not have God for their Father! On this day I would love it if everyone so under off love of Mary and a defense of her!

Téra, the proof that Billy Grahm is a heretic:
those who deny Catholic teaching are heretics.
Grahm denied catholic teaching.
Grahm is a heretic.

I’m not saying that he didnt do any good throughout his life and never helped anyone. I don’t say this of anyone. Even Obama has done some good, I’m sure. But we must believe the Catholic faith and be baptized.

The problem sas not that people recected the evil that was being done leading up to the Protestant Rebellion, but that they rejected Catholic teaching. many saints worked to reform the morals and practices of the church to gat success, especially at the Council of Trent!

I guess the definition that best fits a liberal Catholic is one who is not but claims to be catholic and feels they have the right to pick and choose what they want to believe. They are notable for accepting birth control, abortion and homosexuality. Theologically, they are modernists, and everything, no matter how clear has to be interpreted, and twisted to their own belief structure. Joe Biden and Nancy Polosi are prime examples of these heretics going by the name Catholic.

There is no catch 22 and is all catholic teaching. Bishops, including the pope, are to protect and defend and promulgate Catholic teaching and tradition. When they start doing the opposite and become heretics and start poising the lambs, then the church says that they iPod facto, or automatically loose their office and therefore jurisdiction, which is the right to teach and rule.

God forbid you listen to anything that I say! There is too much of that already. I am just sharing with you Catholic doctrine and the instructions we have from our fathers on how to save our souls in thesse most arduous times of the great apostasy.
This is the teaching of popes, councils, doctors, and saints. I made none of it up. Just as I did not make up that religious liberty is the opposite of dogma!

Rick, you wrote:
*Mary is sinless.
*Mary has intercession power with God.
*God by nature has an obligation to grant all her requests because she is his Mother.
*She is a perpetual virgin and pure and by consequence, has a perfect and sole union with God that only virginity can bring.
*Mary made a sacrifice for us.
*SHE is the greatest work work of all creation. She protects, guards, and provides for her children! Even before the wine is low, she replaces it.

I ask you, what was so special about Jesus, if:
*Mary is sinless, then Jesus did not have to be the Word, made Flesh, because there already was a perfect human being.  Why have two?

If Mary has “intercession” power with God, and He has an “obligation” to grant all her requests, because she is His Mother, then, what good is Jesus as our Advocate to the Father?  By what you wrote, it is not the Father that answers prayer, with Jesus as our Advocate, it’s Mary who hears prayer, she tells Jesus our requests, and He answers her.  God the Father is out of your picture, entirely. 

As for Mary being a perpetual virgin.  Neither God the Father nor the Holy Spirit were married to Mary.  So after the Virgin birth of Jesus that was in prophecy from the Old Testament, it’s irrelevant whether Mary was a perpetual virgin, or not.  What does her virginity after Jesus’ birth have to do with anything?

*Regarding Mary making a sacrifice for us - yes, she did.  Joseph did too. But only Jesus was the Perfect Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world, his Blood shed for many, and Jesus’ sacrifice allowed us sinners to be in a right relationship with God the Father.  The sacrifice made at Calvary, by Jesus the Son of God, the Messiah, the Christ, is the only Sacrifice that could have bought us eternal salvation, and declared us “righteous” by a holy God.  Mary played a part, a big part, but without Jesus, we would all be up a creek, without a paddle, in the grand scheme of eternal life. 

You wrote that Protestants have a cold and indifferent feeling toward Mary, and he who does not have Mary as his Mother does not have God for his Father.

I say that most non-Catholic Christians (some called Protestants) put the Blessed Mother’s role into its proper perspective.  In her Magnificat, she said, “All generations will call me blessed”, and these Christians do.  I have never heard a non-Catholic Christian pan Mary.  They are not cold and indifferent towards her.  But they don’t go over the top, beyond the pale, as do many of our Catholic brethern.

Lastly, he that does not have Jesus as their Brother, and their Lord and Savior, does not have God for his Father.  Mary is out of the equasion.
It is JESUS that is the ‘greatest work of all creation’ - the eternal Word, made Flesh for our sake.  It is the Holy Spirit that protects, guards, and provides for His children, and only Jesus did miracles, not Mary.  Please, Rick, put this into perspective.  Reading the Bible will help.

To Rick, regarding your follow-up comment comparing Billy Graham to President Obama, saying both have done some good things in their life:

While that’s true, Christians must stay focused on the Kingdom of God, where those two men’s lives are in stark contrast.  Billy Graham has spent his 92 year-long life promoting the Kingdom of God, leaving a legacy with his son, Franklin, a man shunned by the Administration, after the younger Graham spoke out against homosexual “marriage”.

President Obama is the first President in history to not recognize the National Day of Prayer, an event held and supported for decades in our nation’s capitol, and a day recognized nationwide by 50 states.  So our President and his Administration were equal opportunity offenders of Christianity across the board - as even Jews were disregarded, as Jews and Christians pray to God, the Father. 

Regarding ‘liberal’ Catholics - you wrote they are notable for accepting birth control, abortion and homosexuality. 

But I would say anyone in support of abortion and homosexual behavior is not even Christian.  End of story.  That behavior is opposed to what God teaches us in the Bible.  Stubborn insistence on what we see is correct, when it is specifically addressed in the Bible (as are abortion and homosexual behavior) shows a person is not Christian, thus, not Catholic.

It is of utmost importance for all of us to let the Bible be our guides.  Many Catholics, who even by your standard would be “conservative”, are not opposed to the ordination of women to the priesthood.  That too, is against what Scripture teaches.

So a simple read of the Bible tells us abortion, homosexual behavior and women leading men in the church, is wrong.  When our bishops, be they the official Magisterium in Rome, or local bishops, come out with teaching about matters of importance, we Catholics ought to be able to go to the Bible & see for ourselves whether or not they are correct or not.

I like to do my homework, and see for myself whether or not something squares with the Bible, the inspired word of God.  Everything we need to know is there.  It just needs to be taught.  Imagine a world where Catholic priests preach from the pulpit on Sundays that abortion, same sex marriage and women’s ordination is wrong.  Angels in Heaven would cheer!

I am not planning to stay on this discussion which has long since strayed off-topic against the NCR guidelines, I presume since Fr Barron is not a regular comunmist no one watches the posts.
We as RCC keep all dogma in peerspective. Mary is asked by us to PRAY FOR US SINNERS. At Cana she asked Jesus, then to the waiters- and to us in John’s sacramental theology DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU. HE is LORD and does nt automatically grant all that we ask for or she asks for us. We do whatever HE tells us, wait, persist, I shall not grant that request now, perhaps never. WE say with her and Him NOT MY WILL,  FIAT- Let it be done to me.
As to homilies, they are based on the readings for the weekend, so please deliver us from harrangue and endless drivel about abortion and same gender unions and women clergy. Everything in its place. The people who atttend Mass regularly do not need “lectures” posing as homilies about any topic, they are the choir preach some of that data to the public in letters to newspapapers, blogs and deal with some in adult study groups.
FINALLY: Jesus decides who is in or out of HIS CHURCH, we do not. HE Judges the heart, we see only externals and sometimes not lovingly enough to listen to the person.

It should be clear to all that HermitTalker has broken multiple DOGMAS of the Catholic Church and is therefore a heretic. I beg all to get the Catechism of the Council of Trent and Fudamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott for the TRUTH! You can also post your email address if you want to discuss offline. Lastly, it is especially sad that he would post so many insults to Our Lady, on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception which celebrates her crushing the head of Satan by being concieved in grace!

I was listening to Catholic radio today and I heard something from the Franciscans that said St. Thomas Aquinas objected to doctrines about Mary being sinless, and it was two Franciscans that pushed it through, and it was accepted by the populace of that day.  This does not seem to be a good way to approach our faith.  I would side with St. Thomas Aquinas. Rick, what do you think?

Tera,
I’ve reada little about there commentary about St Thomas. But it is not relavent today because St Thomas would be the first to have us submit to dogma. The immaculate conception was made dogma in1854. The day after the dogma was declared all debate is to cease. We now know with the certainty of faith this truth! Wouldn’t you agree!?

One theologian’s error about a dogma in process does not make a case for or against any dogma. IF Terah knew the actual facts, 12th c doctors or clergy did not know biolofical facts, Aquinas thought a boy soul took six weeks, a girl’s soul eight - maybe 4 and 6,to come into the conceived baby,  forget which weeks, -is used as argument for abortion and re Mary.  As for myself, I never did think, believe, write or teach anything not taught bt the RCC about Mary or any difined dogma. I absolutely reject anyone on earth, save the Bishop of Rome, deciding I am a heretic. JESUS will be my final judge of my heart, soul and mind.
AS FOR THIS SITE; it has long since wandered into an off-topic valley of   ?

Rick - actually, I do not agree that St. Thomas Aquinas would have accepted the dogmas about Mary.  Since it was only made official in 1854, as you write, if more theologians like Aquinas were around at the time it became dogma, the outcome would have been different.  By 1854, it was not as fashionable to disagree with each other.

Since this is an interesting discussion, today’s news reports Jesuit theologians, as we “speak” are in disagreement over whether Steve Jobs was “saved” or not.  Half say yes; half say no.

That’s why I believe it is of utmost importance to merely abide by what we know is truth, with a capital T, and that Truth is in the Bible. 

Administrations in Rome come and go, just like the ancient Latin liturgy from Trent and the Middle Ages, the pre-Vatican II version, and now, the newer translation of the second version, that precipitated this discussion.  Opinions run rampant, and everyone has one- lay theologians, bishops and cardinals among them.

What we BELIEVE is of utmost importance, because what we think about God, and the Holy Trinity, Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as payment for our sins, His death and resurrection, His coming again and His eternal reign over us - is Key- with a capital K. 

To Rick Sheeler-
When I read Revelation, it makes no sense for Mary to get pregnant again with Jesus (or perhaps she never gave birth to Him the first time, and she’s still expecting, I don’t know how the church explains a 2,033 year long pregnancy, if “the woman” is Mary).

I do not believe it is Mary that crushes the head of Satan.  It makes more sense for “the woman” to be a metaphore for Israel, the nation from whom Jesus, the promised Messiah, was born.  God the Father first mentioned the prophecy of Satan’s head being crushed, in Genesis.

The prophecy was that Jesus crushed Satan’s head (and Satan bruised Jesus’ heal).  So this is not about Mary.  Please, will you just give what I wrote some thought?  Mary played a big role in the birth of Jesus. But please let’s not over-do how much she is still doing - and allow the glory to go to the Holy Trinity, where it belongs.  Thank you for having taken the time to respond to me, and to consider what I write.

I mistyped COLUMNIST referring to Fr Barron and the fact no one keeps the slander, libel and false teachers who are so false themselves off here. I am still wondering wherein I denied the immaculate Conception above on 8 December. No one can ask, demand or cajole Jesus into anything. Not even His Mother, but we are not gods here on earth so perhaps HE does answer her prayers in ways we do not understand. HER attitude was FIAT do it to me as you requested and Do whatever HE tells you at Cana and HIS Father, take this chalice away NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS - so even the Father denied HIS SON’S prayer on the CROSS so we could be saved and some   continue insult and libel and slander His POPE AND CHURCH and others who are loyal beleivers on this holy Chat Room. What an awesome GOD.

Tera and Hermit, I think I have crossed paths on who said what. For this I apologize! Hermit and I have been discussing off line. Tera, are you open to doing the same? my email is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) Thanks!

NO pope, Jesuit, Franciscan or Dominican can decide who is saved or not. Only arrogant evangelicals send people there for what they consider a sin, usually to do with same gender sexual activity and abortion. #Aquinas and his contemporary disagreed with the IC doctrine because of their lack of biological knowledge re conception’s time and circumstances and an Augustinian understanding of sin being passed on from penis to womb.

Hermit:  In ACTS, Peter declares to the people:  “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”

Thank you Lector. In your further reading, as in “lector” = reader, check out St Paul who says his conscience is clear but JESUS is the Judge. He also asks his readers/listeners to “pray for me, lest I myself becone a castaway.”  Not exactly the arrogance so many profess, they reject the BIBLE, Pope, Church Fathers agreed works, and Councils and carry the rest of us out Monday morning with the trash/rubbish depending on your location.

You also use “believe ON” not IN which is normal Catholic practice. Either way keep at it, correct me if and when you find an inaccurate or incomplete teaaching. Thanks.

Hermit - thank you for your offer to chat off-line, but I do like to be able to learn from others, & find an open blog format in the NC Register refreshing among Catholics.  For too long, we have not had an opportunity to dialog about our faith, though we see each other at Mass every Sunday.

I know Catholics that use non-Catholic Bibles, and think their translation says believe ON.  In the USCCB online Bible, it says believe IN.  But both would be true, right?

Only Satan believes IN Jesus, but he doesn’t place his trust ON what Christ did on the Cross.  I don’t know - just thinking.  6 of one, half-dozen of another -

Terah how could you say StThomas would not have submitted to the dogma that Our Lady was Immaculate? I know he was unsure but in the end he’d be loyal to dogma. Either way , we kno the truth now. She was Immaculate.

Hermit:  “Believe on” is widely accepted in the Christian church as well.  Most people, believers and non believers alike believe “in” Jesus (the man) and that he existed in earthly history.  Satan surely believes in Jesus.  Believing in Jesus is different than believing “on” Jesus. You can “know” Jesus intellectually from historical data.  It is altogether another thing to “know” Jesus personally.  I never met President Clinton, but I know who he is.

TERAH: I am somewhat confused. I presume, to solve my diilemma, you responded to my comments to Lector, re the ON or IN. I cannot reconcile the use of believe ON instead of IN for faith in J the C. My desire for e-mail exchanges was the difficulty I had with lots of my posts here being presumed to be Spam or not recorded here. Nothing to do with their blocking me, because there are off-mesage and anti- the official Bishop of Rome statements on here that do not belong on a ROMAN Catholic site but are about matters other than the actual ENGLISH translations of the ROMAN MISSAL. A whole different subject is whether the ROMAM Missal itself was kidnapped by seven Protestant ministers, five golden Freemasons, including Archbishop Annibale Bugnini of the Pope’s Worship Departent all invented by some crazy CUCKOO out of his Pear Tree.

i replied to you Terah but seems it has not posted yet. I am listed as SPAM which they check. Their software or whatever is not working properly it appears.

Amazed constantly at the diversity of what passes for “orthodox”  and “heretical” judgments on here when the canon for orthodox Catholic Teaching is the Bishop of Rome and the world’s bishops joinde with him in 2011. Not some SniPers lobbying hand grenades of partial TRUTH at him from outside the walls of VATUCAN CITY STATE.

The examples you highlighted in the article are indeed more beautiful utilizing the new translation. The message and imagery are complete. Thank you for the analysis and help in understanding what went wrong in the past.

I am saddened that the new translation is really as bad as the critics said it would be.  Would that there was some small poetical sound to these clunkly phrases.  It has the sound of one of those foreign instruction books from a low end camera. The words are all there but it just doesn’t sound like english nor make a lot of sense.  Perhaps one good thing thing will come from it.  The effort to move the church back in time will now be seen for what it is.  For so long, we have been hearing from a very small but vocal minority how Vatican II set the church back and how the Tridentine mass is so much repectful and holier, etc, etc, etc.  Now they got what they wanted, but it’s really a phyrric victory.  I can’t believe that at the next next papal conclave, the english speaking cardinals are not going to be saying very loudly, “This translation was really a very bad move and we don’t want to go through that again.”  The other bishop conferences will also be taking note, because they know that they will be the next victims offered up on the altar of “traditionalism.”  I also can’t believe that the cardinals and bishops are unaware of the problems with heresy which the Motu Proprio allowing unbridled use of the Tridentine Mass encouraged.  It has done great damage to the unity of the Church and I am sure the cardinals will want to bring it under some kind of control.  We dabbled with the reform of the reform.  Now we need the reform of the reform of the reform.