A reader writes:
Greetings, at what point does the church consider someone a martyr . The holy innocent the were executed in the hunt for the baby Messiah are referred to as martyrs. Are those children in new town Connecticut martyrs as well? If not technically, why not? If so, how is it?
"Martyr" means "witness", not "somebody who has died" in Greek. It came to have the connotation of "death" in the early years of Christianity because it was the supreme instance of somebody bearing witness to their faith in Jesus to be willing to suffer and die for it while staunchly maintaining their fidelity to him. Of course, not everybody who suffered for their faith died from their sufferings. Therefore, as time rolled on, Christians distinguished between "confessors" (those who suffered, sometimes under torture, for their faith in Jesus) and "martyrs" (those who actually died).
Over the centuries (and especially in the past century) "martyr" got expanded in popular parlance to mean "anybody who dies for a cause" (so a Nazi bullyboy name "Horst Wessel" was called a "martyr" by Hitler because some thug offed him). He was not, in the Christian sense, a martyr obviously, since the thing he "bore witness" to was Hitler and the Nazis. In Radical Islamic circles, suicide bombers, who murder others for the sake of jihad, are likewise called "martyrs". This too, is a radical misuse of the term from a Christian perspective since true martyrs die for, not murder for, their faith in Jesus.
Other folk, of course, have died for much nobler causes, such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. who really did die directly for the cause of racial justice and for the sake of the gospel (since his vision of racial justice was completely rooted in his Christian faith). Elsewhere in the West, "martyr" has taken on a watered-down connotation that can mean any suffering for anything, and can even mean merely being a victim of some sort of injustice or sadness ("He was a martyr to cancer").
In the Church, however, a martyr remains what he always was: somebody who dies for Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith. This doesn't mean that the martyrdom of, say, Protestant missionaries or civil rights advocates, or the myriad other people who have gone down fighting for the right side "doesn't count". And it certainly doesn't mean that the children of Sandy Hook will not be welcomed into heaven by Jesus. It simply means that their deaths were not *martyrdom* in the Catholic sense. The children of Sandy Hook are murder victims, but they were not murdered for their faith in Jesus, nor were they (like the Holy Innocents) murdered by somebody (like Herod) who was trying to murder Jesus.
Of course, in a sense, all innocents who are deliberately murdered by somebody are joined to the martyrdom of Jesus on the cross since Jesus is present in "the least of these". So we can think of them as sort of lower-case "martyrs" in that sense just as every anonymous nobody who has died in a state of grace is a saint whether or not they ever get canonized. But when the Church hails somebody as a martyr or a saint she does so for a public reason: to hold that person up as a model for the edification of the faithful and say "Here is one way in which Catholic discipleship to Jesus is lived out." There are lots of noble models among people who are not Catholic, of course, and the Church honors such people as well, but not as Catholic martyrs. So from Socrates to Gandhi, to Vicky Soto, who sacrificed her life to protect the children of Newtown, the Church honors such witnesses to courage, truth and goodness. But they are not, properly speaking, Christian or Catholic martyrs, because their deaths, noble and honorable as they are, were not for the sake of their faith in Jesus Christ.
Some may say it is mean and stingy to deny the honorific "martyr" to the victims of Sandy Hook. C.S. Lewis remarks on a similar attitude in his own day to the insistence of not changing the meaning of the word "Christian":
People ask: "Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?": or "May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?" Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every available quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.
The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone "a gentleman" you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not "a gentleman" you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said - so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully - "Ah but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?" They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man "a gentleman" in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is "a gentleman" becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker's attitude to that object. (A 'nice' meal only means a meal the speaker likes.) A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.
Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say 'deepening', the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to he a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.
"Martyr" is, if you will, a technical term. It means "somebody killed because of their witness to Jesus Christ". The children of Sandy Hook were not killed for that. We might call them martyrs to the culture of death, martyrs to our mad gun culture, martyrs to the destructive effects of broken families, martyrs to all sorts of pathologies at work in the soul of Adam Lanza. But they are not martyrs for the gospel. That said, we can have confidence in the mercy of Jesus who loves the little ones, that they were safe with him and that there will be no more tears or weeping where they are.
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Great essay, Mark. (Boy, it’s hard to go wrong when using ol’ C.S. to bolster your argument, eh?) I just hope you don’t get slammed for being “mean-spirited” and “insensitive,” as most people right now view the Newtown horror on an emotional level rather than a factual level.
“Be of good cheer!” (John 16:33)
www.merrycatholic.com
Mark, I hope you aren’t castigated for this…people were also calling the kids “little angels” and I commented in the wayside that they really are, just kids. You should’ve seen the aftermath…
“As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man.”
That C.S. Lewis knew what he was talking about. Except, now, in certain circles, to call someone a Christian is to profess him to be a hypocrite. It seems that the unbelievers are more interested in exposing the Christians who don’t live their personal lives in a manner completely consistent with the creed they profess, then they are interested in critically examining their own behaviour.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, a recent federal holiday has made it clear that to many people, even Catholic bloggers who should know better, “prophet” has merely become “someone who says things, especially political things, that the speaker likes.” The aspect of divine revelation is now gone. I’m sorry, but it was not divine revelation, but human reason properly applied, that convinced Martin Luther King, Jr. that it is really and truly wrong to treat some people like members of an inferior species on account of their race. His rhetorical skills might make him a poet, but not a prophet. There *are* prophets still today, but they are rare, as they have always been rare, and what they receive is special revelation, which must be judged by the Church, not the Congress or the Courts.
Mark,
By “mad gun culture,” I hope you mean the glorification of violence in our Culture of Death and not people who are fighting for the preservation and protection of the Second Amendment. As a devout Catholic and a gun enthusiast, I understand that there is no conflict in being both of these (CCC 2263-2265). The Church in general does not advocate gun control in the sense that Obama is currently doing, which is treating law-abiding citizens such as myself as criminals for desiring to protect our families, but there have been many people who call themselves Catholic that have (a letter recently published by the National “Catholic” Reporter comes to mind).
Our Blessed Mother warns of the destruction of the innocents! Go now to www.LadyOfFatima.Wordpress.com for an urgent message!
Well, regarding the word *gentleman*, maybe we should go ahead and accept semantic change here as legitimate. ’Cause I remember reading in something printed up by the Dominicans who serviced the Newman Center I sometimes went to, Cardinal John Henry Newman’s “definition of a gentleman”. He defined a gentleman, IIRC, as someone who never expressly inflicted pain.
O blind your eyes and break your heart and hack your hand away,
And lose your love and shave your head; but do not go to stay
At the little place in What’sitsname where folks are rich and clever;
The golden and the goodly house, where things grow worse for ever;
There are things you need not know of, though you live and die in vain,
There are souls more sick of pleasure than you are sick of pain;
There is a game of April Fool that’s played behind its door,
Where the fool remains for ever and the April comes no more,
Where the splendour of the daylight grows drearier than the dark,
And life droops like a vulture that once was such a lark:
And that is the Blue Devil that once was the Blue Bird;
For the Devil is a gentleman, and doesn’t keep his word.
—G.K. Chesterton
“martyrs to our mad gun culture”
Please direct me to “our mad gun culture.” As someone who is very active in what would be called the “gun culture,” I generally see much less “madness” and much more common sense among gun owners than in our popular culture today.
A culture in which 10,000+ people are shot to death each year (and that’s not counting the woundings, armed robberies and other sorts of gun violence), regularly punctuated with Columbines, Virginia Techs, Auroras, and Sandy Hooks can reasonably be described as “mad”, I reckon.
That said, this piece is not about our gun culture. It’s about whether the victims of Sandy Hook are martyrs. Please stick to the subject.
Aside from the flippant name, “O. Possum” has a point. The problem with a “mad gun culture” is the madness of what is increasingly less truly a culture, not a problem with the guns themselves nor with their proper use. If we were to play that game, we could call every wife murdered by her husband “a martyr to our mad marriage culture”, and everyone who dies in a car crash “a martyr to our mad car culture”. Those who die due to being overweight would be “martyrs to our mad food culture”, and those who die from drug overdoses, or to actions taken by people on drugs, would be “martyrs to our mad drug culture.” In reality, there’s too much madness, not enough culture, and very few real martyrs.
Mark,
Don’t be careless in your perception of a “mad gun culture” and I’ll stay on topic. I’m an avid reader, and I don’t like being dismissed for pointing out your casual sweeping statements on something that is vital to the faith:
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow. (CCC)
I liked your article, Mark. I also agree with your “mad gun culture” remarks. There would have been no Sandy Hook, Aurora, Columbine, etc. absent guns. We license marriage, cars, drugs, even our dogs and cats—but not guns? You can’t get married or drive a car without state intervention and somehow these activities have managed to survive. Contrary to OPossum and Howard: it is, in fact, a problem with guns themselves, just like car deaths and car accidents involve a problem with cars. This is part of why we regulate and license cars—because they’re dangerous. This is also why cars have become more safe over the years—because of regulation.
SubjectVerb:
You seem to be reading all sorts of things I’m not saying or even implying into four words. I would advise against that. Until I say, “self-defense is murder” or “Somebody I’ve never heard of named SubjectVerb is guilty of sin because he uses guns responsibly” don’t assume I’m saying anything of the kind, since I’m not.
Mark,
Yes it is mad. It’s a mad culture of murder. It has been this way since Cain slew Abel. This world is a mad culture of sin.
Since the FBI reports 8,583 murders with firearms in 2011 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20), I assume your 10,000+ deaths a year to include shootings in self-defense by police and private citizens as part of the “mad gun culture.”
Sorry to get off topic, but you didn’t really think you could slip in the charged words “martyrs of our mad gun culture” and not elicit a response, did you? You are writing to readers of the National Catholic Register, not the National Catholic Reporter, and not MSNBC.
Carry on, I’ll be quiet now, and again, sorry for the distraction. :)
Mark: It’s a sensitive time for gun owners; we must be vigilant against those who are attacking the second amendment. Yes, I may have read more into your “mad gun culture” statement than you intended, but I really do enjoy your writing, and I wanted clarification on your statement. You’ve satisfied it :) I am not asking for an comprehensive article on gun control/second amendment stuff or even your opinion on it, since the Church even tiptoes around it; I’m asking for a sensitivity towards law-abiding citizens who are not criminals.
O.Possum: Thanks for the statistics :) I agree with everything you’ve said. And I don’t think a defense of gun owners in the comments of a Sandy Hook article is “off topic,” do you? ;)
Beautifully written article and so nicely stated to not put shame on the death of these little ones at Sandy Hook. Nevertheless, in the Christian world, the word martyer produces the thought of one laying down ones life for the cause Of Jesus Christ. And we, too, believe that these little innocent victims of a bad seed sit with God in Heaven as He had created them. Until the return of Jesus Christ we will always see injustice, the killing of the innocents and the misusing of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, we who are true believers of Jesus Christ are to stand together and move forward having the hope that thur our walk in this world others will be drawn unto the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are called to pick up our own crosses, to walk our own walk of suffering and to know and to share our belief that Jesus Christ is our strength because He first walked the walk of suffering carring His Cross for all mankinds sins. Thus we are saved thur the Blood of Jesus Christ shed at Calvery and then by our testimony from our mouths, Jesus saves and then we too must know that we now walk in the steps of the Master and too we lay down our lives for the brethren, til death do us part. That is the belief we share, that we believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and we lay down our lives with no shame and no guilt and no condemnation because first He laid down His life for us. Thus for the cause of Christ, for the cause of the Cross, for the cause of God we go forth and thus are called martyers, for a justifiable cause, with the hope to save someone else, because God desires no one to perish. Where would the doctrine of Christ Jesus be today, where would the Christian church be today if those ahead of us had not gone the mile, gone two miles for the Lover of their souls, Jesus Christ and not bow down to other gods and to man. Thus, we go forth as our previous brothers and sisters in Christ to hold the Christian flag high along with the Holy Scriptures as the love letters from God unashamealy so for all the world to see, greater is He that is in us then he who is in the world. That we believe so strongly that we are willing to die for what we know is truth because we have been touched by the Hand of the Master and we cannot deny Him. These are called martyers. Are you among the troops of the Army of God lifting a standard high that the world can see, “I am a Christian til death do us part”, and at that time our true lives will just begin by sitting at the feet of Jesus and singing praises unto the King. Amen. what a wonderful day that will be. Are you among the gathering of the believers who will march forward into the glorious Light of Jesus Christ? See you there.
Andy, You may have read that in China on the same day as Sandy Hook, a man killed nearly the same number of school children with a knife. The deadliest killing ever at a school was done with a homemade bomb. Bad people kill people with whatever is on hand. (And more people are killed by hands or feet or bottles or bats each day than by fancy weapons.) The problem is deeper than guns, and, as with abortion or any other evil, will not be solved by legislation. By all means, regulate away, and enforce those regulations, too, great! But the bad guys also do not follow laws, and they won’t follow the laws more just because there are more laws to follow.
Flatlux: I agree that bad guys don’t follow laws, but we still (appropriately) pass laws against murder, rape, robbery, etc. The problem is deeper than guns, but that doesn’t mean we can’t take proximate measures like universal background checks, banning high-capacity magazines and assault rifles, etc. Finally, people may try to kill each other with whatever is at hand, but the chances of actually being successul in that endeavor depends in large part on what you lay your hands on. If crazed, knife-wielding killers were a problem in the U.S., then I would advocate for stronger laws dealing with the knives that were being used. As it happens, guns are the problem du jour. Let’s deal with the problem.
Speculation is one thing. Truth is quite another. Only God knows the truth, and we can be certain the children are in great and merciful hands.
Sirs, I would like to ask why when I write something to you, my writings are listed as “spam” and needs to be evaluated before printing…Spam to me means junk…I don’t send junk to anyone. Please unsubscribe me to your site….this is not respecting Me, TheRose nor the gospel of Jesus Christ….
Rose: I doubt it’s anything personal. Our system mysteriously filters people sometimes. It’s done it to me many times too. Machines are stupid. Bear with us.
Don’t you think it possible, Ms. Soto could be a true martyr in the strict catholic sense of the word. We can’t know for sure, but it would depend on what she was thinking and the state of her belief at the time she laid down her life for the children. It is reasonably possible she acted because of faith in Jesus Christ.
NickD you are on to something. Oftentimes when little ones pass on, people refer to them as “angels.” Trying to tell them that they did not, in fact, become angels upon death is to bring down wrath on yourself! Saints, perhaps, but not angels.
What a stupid question! The children went to school and they were murdered. They did not have a choice to die for their “religion.” Why would anyone think they’re “martyrs” in any sense of the term?
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To label them as martyrs is an insult to them. They did not go to school in defiance of a law, as did Malala Yousufzai. They went to school as was their privilege as children of U.S. citizens and their civil rights were violated. Do not give a religious excuse to gun-nuts to use assault rifles to kill again and again.
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/04/florida-father-with-assault-weapon-forces-wife-to-watch-as-he-kills-two-sons/
“It seems that the unbelievers are more interested in exposing the Christians who don’t live their personal lives in a manner completely consistent with the creed they profess, then they are interested in critically examining their own behaviour.”
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Melissa—before you accuse unbelievers, take a look at yourself.
It is not legal for private citizens to own bombs, chemical or biological substances that could cause plagues or gas the subway systems. Why should it be legal to have military style assault weapons that are produced for the sole reason to kill as many of the “enemy” as possible?
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If anyone tries to carry an unloaded pistol onto an airplane, a S.W.A.T. team would descend in seconds of it’s being detected. Anyone can purchase an assault weapon and 30-100 magazines at a gun show without a background check. Is this sane????
No one seems to desire the outlawing of vehicles, yet there is carnage on our roads every year that is on par with our casualties from over a decade of war in Vietnam. Car and motorcycle licenses are not a right, yet we don’t argue that only government officials should be out on the roads. No one seems to notice that the Apostles were armed while following Our Lord around on His travels.
Tom: Cars are licensed, taxed and regulated. Guns should be too. As far as the Apostles being armed…that is cuckoo. On ONE occasion, Peter had a sword and Jesus rebuked him for it.
Since this came up, I must ask: Why are we so sure these kids are in heaven?
Most people in any circumstances go to hell. That’s fallen human nature. I didn’t know how these kids were, so I can’t say one way or the other. Just that they were kids does not mean they are in heaven; kids can be horrible little creatures.
And just because they were innocent in the sense that they did not deserve a gruesome murder (does anyone?) does not mean they were innocent in other ways.
Most people in any circumstances go to hell.
Benedict XVI does not share your certitude on this point.
“There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell[37]. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours—people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are[38].
46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul.
- Spes Salvi
We don’t know if the children were baptized. But we do know that unbaptized children have been saved (see the Holy Innocents). That is because, though we are bound by the sacraments, God is not bound and can do as he pleases. And we also know these children were below the age of reason. It is therefore entirely within the scope of charity to hope for their salvation.
Meanwhile, Catholics running around assuming that these children may have been “horrible little creatures” and speculating, to absolutely no good purpose and with absolutely no grounds for supposing it, that they are damned is one of the many reasons people of good will who are outside the Church are scandalized and repulsed and remain outside the Church. What earthly good does such speculation do? Stop it.
I never expressed certitude on where they were. That was exactly my point. Everyone is so convinced these children are in heaven; I’m saying I don’t know that.
As for limbo, the pope never said it doesn’t exist; he simply said we’re free to believe as we want because it is not technically revealed. Be that as it may, I’m at pains to make sense of everything else if you flatly deny, as many Catholics do, its very existence.
My point wasn’t so much about limbo, but the attitude so many people have when other people die that the dead are in heaven. It’s the same thing with Ed Koch: I don’t know where he is. But “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” honestly makes me worry about ol’ Ed.
I ask again: what conceivable purpose does it serve to speculate that these children—slaughtered at the age of six, may have been “horrible little creatures” damned to hell? Do you think at all about the effect such grotesque and tone deaf speculations have on the lacerated hearts of the people who love them? Prudence, charity, and hope are virtues here. Heartless speculation on things we cannot know and which only serve to wound the wounded are evil.
fiatlux, you said: “Andy, You may have read that in China on the same day as Sandy Hook, a man killed nearly the same number of school children with a knife.” You are gravely mistaken. In the incident at the grade school in Chengping, the attacker WOUNDED 22 children and 1 adult. There were ZERO fatalities. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world/asia/man-stabs-22-children-in-china.html) Yes, insane people will kill with whatever’s to hand. And when military-grade weapons are to hand, they will kill dozens of people faster than the speed of thought.
Posted by Andy on Monday, Feb 4, 2013 10:50 PM (EDT):
Tom: Cars are licensed, taxed and regulated. Guns should be too.”
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Vehicles need only be licensed if used on public roads-unless there are some states that now regulate even this.We used to have a handlettered “Farm Use” sign on our truck that allowed us to do farm- related errands within a 15 mile radius, with no state registration or tag required.
We have an enormous number of laws on the books that are poorly enforced.Instead of enacting more laws upon already compliant folk-the only segment of the population that will actually be affected since criminals will continue to possess ilegal weapons & ignore laws, why not address the real issues? Crime & mental illness,the judicial system, the breakdown of families & the unraveling of our social fabric.
These children are innocent victims of a madman.
They cannot be compared to the Holy Innocents who were murdered in place of the Messiah.
Martyrs are those who are killed/murdered for professing and defending the Catholic Faith.
Those who choose to suffer death rather than renounce their Faith.
Those who refuse to give up the faith when faced with or without a choice.
When the murderer/murderers know and kill them simply because they believe in Jesus Christ Who is God.
THESE INNOCENT CHILDREN ARE NOT MARTYRS.
MAY THEIR SOULS REST IN PEACE.
HERE IS A MODERN DAY MARTYR KILLED WITH A GUN AND SHOT OVER 70 TIMES:
Pakistani Minorities Minister Shahbaz Bhatti has been shot dead by gunmen who ambushed his car in broad daylight in the capital, Islamabad. He was travelling to work through a residential district when his vehicle was sprayed with bullets,
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/02/16/pakistani-christian-leader-death-threats-won’t-stop-me-speaking-out/
2 March 2011 – Pakistan’s leading Catholic politician has said that death threats will not stop him speaking out against the country’s blasphemy law.
Shahbaz Bhatti, Minister for Minorities and the first Christian to hold a cabinet post in Pakistan, has received multiple death threats.
He said during a trip to Canada: “I have been told by pro-Taliban religious extremists that if I will continue to speak against the blasphemy law, I will be beheaded.” But he said his faith gave him strength.
“As a Christian, I believe Jesus is my strength. He has given me a power and wisdom and motivation to serve suffering humanity. I follow the principles of my conscience, and I am ready to die and sacrifice my life for the principles I believe,” he said.
THIS IS A MARTYR. SHAHBAZ BHATTI, PRAY FOR US…
Kathleen: The GOP has cynically managed to prevent enforcement of many gun laws. They inserted a clause in the Patriot Act that required Cabinet-level scrutiny for the director of the BATF, effectively keeping that agency from functioning. The GOP, backed by the NRA, has also prevented the BATF from hiring enough agents to enforce existing laws. I agree with you: let’s fund the BATF so that we can enforce existing laws, but let’s also pass other laws to deal with this gun madness (as Mark said). And realize that when you vote for Republicans, you’re voting for people who are likely to resist gun reform. Maybe you think that’s good . . .
Andy on Tuesday, Feb 5, 2013 11:12 AM (EDT):
Andy,
The article is not about gun control, the GOP, NRA or BATF or POLITICS…
The article is about:
ARE THE CHILDREN OF NEWTOWN MARTYRS?
Celine, Mark began an interesting conversation. Lighten up.
Andy,
I haven’t said what political party I vote for.Politics is what makes it so difficult to address real issues.
Interesting…I agree with Lewis’s larger point, but I disagree that ‘gentleman’ is a useless, uninformative word. It may not have a class connotation anymore, but it does imply something about impeccable manners and courtesy rising even to chivalry, not merely someone nice or likeable. Not every man is one. The young fellow who silently runs and gets me a chair if he sees me without one, even if he goes without himself—that’s a gentleman. It is (unfortunately) exceptional behavior. Maybe it would be better to use another word to argue for preserving the integrity of terms.
I share some of the consternation of other posters. Call me heartless if you will, but I also found myself thinking that people would instantly forget every time they took something that wasn’t theirs, or shoved a classmate in the lunch line, or fibbed to their parents. In other words, neither demons nor angels, but normal children doing what normal children do. I try to remind myself that it’s natural to think the best of the recently deceased. Certainly they didn’t deserve to be gunned down either way. Still, it does seem a bit much.
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merkn: Of course it’s possible, but I think we’d need to examine other evidence from Ms. Soto’s life to see if it was probable. It’s not quite as obvious as the case of Cassie Bernall, who was shot directly after being questioned about belief in God.
Kathleen, I’ll take a wild guess that you tend to vote Republican. Most of my friends vote Republican; there’s nothing wrong with that in principle, but the current GOP leadership is so committed to various ideologies (tax cuts, spending cuts, help the rich, etc.) that it’s hard to get them to listen to common sense. One such area where the GOP is committed to ideology is on guns, and the reason is b/c the GOP is so beholden to the NRA. I credit Mark with taking what I think is a truly Catholic position on gun violence: he’s against it, and he sees the violent gun culture—abetted by the GOP and NRA—as being part of the problem of horrible events like Sandy Hook. Normally, such common sense would garner nothing but nods, but because of the political climate—as you mention—it’s almost impossible to make a common-sense remark.
“There would have been no Sandy Hook, Aurora, Columbine, etc. absent guns.”
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Ah, but there would have been an Oklahoma City and a Ted Kaczinski. And a 9-11 (box cutters were the weapon of choice, no?), and a 1996 Olympics bombing, and a 2005 London train bomb.
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“It is not legal for private citizens to own bombs”
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And yet, and yet, some of them manage…that’s the point. Laws have a purpose, no denying that, but they are the bare minimum that keeps people from acting. If we really want to actually stop things, we’re going to have to be smarter and more creative.
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” If crazed, knife-wielding killers were a problem in the U.S., then I would advocate for stronger laws dealing with the knives that were being used.”
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And then you’d likely be denying a lot of people a legitimate kitchen tool. I possess an 8-inch serrated knife. Oh well, who needs that, right? Enness can cut bread with something short and dull. By the way, what’s with the minimalism I see expressed by so many about the China incident? Don’t we want to prevent children from being violently assaulted, not only killed?
Andy, I’d take an equally wild guess that she votes independent. Where I live, the Republicans are liberal. Let’s stick to the facts as we know them, shall we?
These children are innocent victims of a madman.
They cannot be compared to the Holy Innocents who were murdered in place of the Messiah.
Martyrs are those who are killed/murdered for professing and defending the Catholic Faith.
Those who choose to suffer death rather than renounce their Faith.
Those who refuse to give up the faith when faced with or without a choice.
When the murderer/murderers know and kill them simply because they believe in Jesus Christ Who is God.
THESE INNOCENT CHILDREN ARE NOT MARTYRS.
MAY THEIR SOULS REST IN PEACE.
HERE IS A MODERN DAY MARTYR KILLED WITH A GUN AND SHOT OVER 70 TIMES:
Pakistani Minorities Minister Shahbaz Bhatti has been shot dead by gunmen who ambushed his car in broad daylight in the capital, Islamabad. He was travelling to work through a residential district when his vehicle was sprayed with bullets,
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/02/16/pakistani-christian-leader-death-threats-won’t-stop-me-speaking-out/
2 March 2011 – Pakistan’s leading Catholic politician has said that death threats will not stop him speaking out against the country’s blasphemy law.
Shahbaz Bhatti, Minister for Minorities and the first Christian to hold a cabinet post in Pakistan, has received multiple death threats.
He said during a trip to Canada: “I have been told by pro-Taliban religious extremists that if I will continue to speak against the blasphemy law, I will be beheaded.” But he said his faith gave him strength.
“As a Christian, I believe Jesus is my strength. He has given me a power and wisdom and motivation to serve suffering humanity. I follow the principles of my conscience, and I am ready to die and sacrifice my life for the principles I believe,” he said.
THIS IS A MARTYR. SHAHBAZ BHATTI, PRAY FOR US…
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/are-the-children-of-newtown-martyrs#ixzz2K2qPMeRA
Andy,
If I had to identify my political leanings it would be as an independent.
Unfortunately in some states that limits being able to vote in primaries so I’ve twice had to register with one party or the other.
I think it’s good manners & aids in conversation to not presume folk’s political preferences.Catholics are neither Democratic nor GOP.There are some non-negotiable issues that give us little choice in candidate or party.Lately the Democratic platform has not ben one that I could support in good conscience.My first vote was for Jimmy Carter & I volunteered for Eugene McCarthy.I like Ron Paul but can only take his theories so far.
And I belong to the NRA.
First thing that came to my mind when I saw title of this blog - no. They may be heaven but they are not martyrs. These childen were probably around age 6 (before the age of reason) so I hope for God’s mercy for those that weren’t baptized.
“No one seems to desire the outlawing of vehicles, yet there is carnage on our roads every year that is on par with our casualties from over a decade of war in Vietnam. Car and motorcycle licenses are not a right, yet we don’t argue that only government officials should be out on the roads.”
Motor vehicles are regulated AND auto makers are not magically exempt from product liability. Gun makers ARE exempt from product liability by special laws passed by congress and gun dealers are left largely alone by the ATF due to restrictions on oversight pushed through congress by the NRA gun lobby. On the other hand, we have an ongoing effort to reduce motor vehicle accidents and a system of regulation surrounding the safe operation with penalties. Guns are largely exempted from meaningful oversight due to the hyperactive gun business lobby. Its a business lobby that merchandises killing implements of no particular value to the overall society.
The scale of harm done by guns annually is astonishing. 100,000 gunshot victims per year of all types. Imagine the medical costs alone of that.
Meanwhile in Japan gun homicides was ELEVEN for all of 2011. I’ve lived there, nobody ever talks about fearing for their lives like people here do. We simply accept an insane rate of gun violence in the name of badly written sentence in our Constitution.
Amen to dch. It occurs to me that the gun lobby and the abortion-rights lobby have at least one thing in common: both believe the Constitution requires unfettered exercise of their constitutional rights with no limits, no matter how common sensical those limits might be.
dch,
Auto makers have been held liable when their vehicles malfunction.Guns are designed to hit targets.If a weapon malfunctioned in use, that could be grounds for holding the maker responsible.
No, the children of Newtown are not martyrs, but they are in heaven like all the aborted children, they had no choice to live either. But God has waiting a most beautiful place for them, who are innocent like the babes in the womb. The children of Newtown did not go thru a martyrs death,but I do believe the aborted babies suffered martyrdom in the womb, and so by God’s mercy and grace all will enter into His Kingdom at the moment of death. May their parents be consoled with God’s Peace.
“Meanwhile in Japan gun homicides was ELEVEN for all of 2011. I’ve lived there, nobody ever talks about fearing for their lives like people here do.”
dch: isn’t Japan’s suicide rate twice as high as that of the US? Second highest in the G8? Do they talk much about things that might cause them shame? Because from what I have read, they have other demons to exorcise, so to speak.
“dch: isn’t Japan’s suicide rate twice as high as that of the US? Second highest in the G8? Do they talk much about things that might cause them shame? Because from what I have read, they have other demons to exorcise, so to speak.”
And the point is?
Your chance of being shot either intentionally or unintentionally in Japan is nil. That is a fact. (The law was introduced by the United States occupation in the 1940s.) The Newtown shootings amount to a mass slaughter of children that was enabled by the high capacity and rate of fire of a implement designed as a infantry weapon. Why should civilians have access to such implements?
Ennis: You missed dch’s point about Japan. I don’t think dch was saying Japan is a utopia. The point was that Japan is not awash in guns and as a result has a much lower rate of gun violence. The fact that it may have a higher suicide rate is sad but hardly an argument that U.S. gun culture is somehow justified.
Oops. I mixed up Enniss with dch. Sorry!
So, should I not have blinked when the woman on the witness stand avered: “And then the gentleman raped me”?
[We have an enormous number of laws on the books that are poorly enforced. Instead of enacting more laws upon already compliant folk-the only segment of the population that will actually be affected since criminals will continue to possess ilegal weapons & ignore laws, why not address the real issues? Crime & mental illness,the judicial system, the breakdown of families & the unraveling of our social fabric.]
A very good, mature, and reasonable question.
So tell me Kathleen… have you received any good answers yet???
ED,
No. The politically expedient answer is to pass yet another law which restricts the freedoms of folk who are law abiding.That placates public opinion but does little to solve the underlieing issues.
Kathleen:
Sorry to hear you haven’t received any “good answers” yet. But, of course, it *doesn’t* really surprise me.
Unfortunately, as you probably know, we have developed a very bad habit in this country of just weakly and almost hypnotically accepting “worthless paper quick-fix bandages” from our corrupt, egotistical, and obviously brainless political leaders over-and-over-and-over again without much (or any) protest or opposition. We (the people of a formally united but now divided and heavily *medicated* nation) just seem totally unable or unwilling (?) to learn from our past that this type of silly and useless “quick-fix” approach solves absolutely nothing. It’s really so-o unbelievable… and so-o truly disgusting and pitiful. What’s even worse is that no one really seems to care anymore. IMHO, this is definitely NOT a hopeful sign for our sick and divided nation.
FWIW…back on Dec. 18, 2012, I was still hoping against all odds that things could actually change in this country and I made this comment to a person from Scotland who was commenting on Mark’s CAEI blog about Newtown:
[FYI my hope is that America will truly take the time to *seriously* examine the ‘root’ cause/(s) of this type of violence. We have had enough of our normal and silly politically-directed and media-hyped dog and pony shows that offer nothing but worthless paper quick-fix bandages that temporarily appease the public but in truth solve absolutely nothing.]
Well, Kathleen, here we are only (2)-months later attempting to once again *quickly* travel down that same old *stupid* road AGAIN. Hard to believe… but true.
Sadly, some things just never change.
Please keep praying for *all* our children who are forced to grow-up in this ‘culture of death’ and *stupidity*... they truly need our prayers.
ED,
When you mention our nation as being “heavily medicated”, I think that brings up an issue we may need to be concerned about.
There is an enormous use of psychotropic drugs in our society & they’re being prescribed at younger & younger ages.
One of my children worked in a call center & was told by a healthcare professional that at least one half of the employees there were on some form of medication to deal with the stress.
Children suffering from depression & other issues have been prescribed adult antipsychotic drugs, which in young people can create psychotic episodes when none existed previously.
I’m not anti-medicine, but you have to wonder what overall effect this might have on a society.Just from my personal experience in schools,
talking to teachers,to folk who process insurance applications,etc, I’d guess that a significant segment of our population is on some kind of psychotropic drug & not fully functioning.That doesn’t bode well for a free society.
Yes, Kathleen, I understand and agree with your concerns.
As a matter of fact… IMO, this nation (and entire world for that matter) has so-o many *enormous* problems right now that a sane and well-informed person could very easily lose all hope if they didn’t have a strong faith in God.
So keep praying… especially for all the children.
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