The HSS Mandate has happened because of a lack of a single-payer scheme - which the US Catholic Bishops prefer.

Because of Republican opposition the compromise became watered-down Romneycare. A single payer scheme can provide “comprehensive” cover including contraception and abortion without affecting Catholic employers.

As for individual taxpayers indirectly funding contraception and abortion against their consciences - this problem is not new. We have funded and continue to fund nuclear weapons pointed at cities, unjust wars etc.. Whic cost far more than the relatively small amount spent on contraception.

Most insurance or employer funded abortion and contraception is ultimately funded by the same people who pay taxes.

Eg do you voluntarily contribute to a health insurance scheme which includes abortion or contraception? Then you help to collectively fund abortion and contraception. Does your employment health scheme include abortion and contraception? - then you help to fund abortion and contraception. Do you buy good or services from companies and institutions which include abortion and contraception for their employees? Then you help to fund abortion and contraception. If you have bought Microsoft, Apple products or use Google, gmail or Yahoo then you help to fund their employee’s abortion and contraception. Are you going to boycott them?

More abortion and contraception is provided by private health insurance and companies than by government so I think that most American Catholics have been indirectly funding abortion and contraception in this way. Do John Zmirak and others have qualms about this? Or is this just Obama-bashing?

Republican Senators and Congress members enjoy very good government-funded healthcare for themselves and their families - including contraception. Yet they do not want their constituents (who pay for it) to have the same benefits.

Single payer would have merely wrapped the mandate within the administration of the plans themselves.

The pro-abortion forces would not have let it be.

One thing rarely mentioned on English language Catholic sites is that a large number of Catholics who are supporting Obama are Latinos voting on immigration issues.

The Alabama immigration law (which Alabama-based EWTN has been curiously silent about) is as much of an assault on religious freedom from the right as the HHS Mandate is from the left.

So, for Latino Catholics, the choice is between a party that is persecuting their church and a party that they feel is persecuting their race.

Put another way, the quasi-amnesty for children brought into the country illegally (and Republican resistance to such a plan) probably won Obama more than enough Catholic votes to make up for those he lost due to the issues in this article.

As Leo points out so well, the idea that you can participate in a Western consumer society—buying products, working for the government or a corporation, paying taxes, investing in stocks or bonds, purchasing medical insurance—without indirectly paying for contraception, abortion, and sterilization, is a fantasy. Any Catholics who participate in the federal Blue Cross health insurance plan are already in the supposedly worst-case scenario for individual Catholics that could result from implementation of the HHS mandate. They don’t look worried to me.

The bishops’ concern is about the dilemma of the institutional church that runs businesses such as universities and hospitals that actually compete with secular institutions that do the same thing. Don’t expect the average Catholic to lose sleep over the fact that a Catholic hospital has to meet government-imposed standards, even if that includes providing all of its employees with insurance that covers tubal ligations and vasectomies and hormonal birth control methods. The majority of average Catholics will use one or more of those services in his or her lifetime.

Sure the Amish got it made. Maybe some Catholics will choose to set up such sort-of self-sustaining communities that are self-insured. Maybe like the Amish they can open stores to sell baked goods and aprons to tourists who earn their money by working for electric companies, defense contractors, or automobile part manufacturers. The point of such a community is obviously not to change the larger society.  It’s to sustain the personal purity of the members of the smaller society. I suspect this Catholic society will be relatively small.

Well, if we’re pretending that the future is deterministic and that you know this future, these are the things that will happen after 2016 if Romney is elected.  He’s got “single-termer” written all over him.  There’s no escape through that door. How about devoting 10% of the effort you put working and praying for Romney’s election into praying for Obama’s conversion?  After all, your prophecies here are only private revelation, and no Catholic is bound to believe them.

It’s not Latinos vs the rest of the Catholic population.

It’s weekly (and daily) Mass attendees vs nominal, non-practicing Catholics.

Heck, most of the Hispanics who live in my area of the country are Protestant Pentecostals anyway.

I’m no Romney guy, but Romney simply does not have single termer written over him at all.  AT ALL.

He gets merely a 2 to 3% drop in unemployment, and gas prices to break 3 dollars per gallon, and he cruises to a reelection.  We’re talking 1984 Reagan

Obama always felt like a single-termer to me.  Too ephemeral,  too wrapped up in passion, and too single-minded toward social liberalism.  No desire or want to compromise, no real interest in satisfying the old blue collar left (for every auto bailout, there was no Keystone Pipeline and a cool opposition to coal), or doves for that matter.  Small wonder OWS hated him as much, or more than the Tea Party hated establishmentarian Republicans. 

Obama doesn’t like people, especially Americans, enough to want to be POTUS.  He’s like being President, but not POTUS.

Romney likes people in the paternalistic way that most patricians like them.  Compassion at arm’s length.  That’s at least better than disdain.

From the time the US Supreme Court in 1972 had allowed the legalization of Abortion, America as a nation had sold her soul to the devil.  More than 50,000,000 unborn babies were killed plus many mothers and fathers were also prevented to be co-creator of God Almighty.  America little by little became the fertile ground of the devil in destroying Family and Life.  Much more when an unknown Obama was elected President in 2008.  For a long time we your brothers and sisters in faith in the Philippines have seen “the signs of the times”.  That’s why are fighting hard here to prevent the passage of anti-life bills.  Now, that a chance and hope to be able for Catholic Christians and other Christians to breathe Life, we here in Philippines will pray that you realized that His light is now upon you and “Obamanation” will not happen to you because whatever will happen to you, will also be felt by us.  Let’s hold to God and decide in favor of the person very much opposite of your present governance.

Yes, yes, but did any of you vote?  At a polling station?  For real? Red-arrowing on the UK DAILY MAIL doesn’t count.  Listening to a.m. radio doesn’t count.  Having an opinion doesn’t count.  Voting counts.

After living under the communist regime in Poland half of my life, I witnessed first hand that eternal truth cited in the Bible which says that man’s ways are not God’s ways. When everything in that country, and the region, seemed like God has forgotten about His people there, suddenly the whole world heard those sweet words, ” Habemus Papam”. God answered our prayers, and JPII was on its way to do God’s will in the world. The regime collapsed, the communists were no more, and massive lawsuits against the leaders flooded the courts. General Jaruzelski and Kiszczak, two of the most notorious enemies of the Church and people, whose hands are stained by the blood of murdered priests and opponents of the regime, are to this day fighting their case in courts. We, who pray everyday, must not think that our prayers go unanswered. But we must also understand, or at least try to, that America, and most Catholic Americans must be first humbled before we’ll be granted justice and peace. If Obama stays four more years, there will surely be persecution, there will be civil disobedience, and finally, after Obama goes into infamy, there will be lawsuits of all kinds against the Democratic administration- some justifiable, some opportunistic. Recently the Chief German Rabbi responded to the German government’s prohibitition of the circumcision of young Jewish boys, by saying, ” We have done it for 5 thousand years, and we’ll keep on doing it “. And so we, Catholics, should be doing what the Church has been doing for the past 2 thousand years : pray, fast, and trust. They will surely try and break us, but they will never destroy us.  Don’t allow yourselves to fall into despair, hate, or compromises. Have Faith and be fearless. With God all is possible. God Bless! Vote wisely !

With the Church full of pseudo-Catholics who prefer “social justice” over the faith in Jesus Christ, I look for my inspiration to the Vendeans, the Chouans, the Polish Confederates of Bar and the Cristeros. Viva Cristo Rey - and let the chips fall where God wills them to fall.

“Why wasn’t this subject raised in the debates?” I suggest Cardinal Dolan ought to have raised that very same question with the candidates at the Al Smith Dinner love fest but there was little time to do so amidst all the laughter.

John,

These kinds of columns in the Catholic press are baffling. Can you bring yourself to say that socialism is a bad idea? Do you think anyone at the Register could dare even type such an idea, and if so, do you think this newspaper publish it? I don’t.

ObamaCare passed only because of late-night lobbying in Pelosi’s office by USCCB staffers who negotiated (literally) with NARAL and other groups to hammer out a compromise that came to be called the Stupak Amendment and passed hours later in the House. Sarah Palin and other Republicans warned of ObamaCare Death Panels and other Nazi-like policies that are intrinsic to socialized medicine run by atheistic governments, but the bishops would hear none of it.

Not many political scientists “wonder how such persecution can be aimed at the largest Christian church in the country.” This is what nearly 100% of bishops asked for and those who fought against ObamaCare think it absurd for the Church now to complain.

After the HHS mandate was announced, both George Will and Rick Santorum said that the bishops “deserve” what they got. Even today, the USCCB is rock-solid in favor of ObamaCare (minus the mandate).  If it is true that “first them came for the Catholics,” it is more true that the bishops led their sheep to the slaughter.

It is very disturbing that some religious congregations are in the Obama camp. Educated and full of “good will”, they do not seem to care about the devastating effects of 4 more years that the “flexibilty”  the government will have to impose even more horrendous activities upon citizens and institutions.  Surely they ought to be able to forsee mandated assisted suicide, euthanasia and the destructive consequences of a totally secular, amoral society.  Why not?  The First Amendment which is supposed to guarantee freedom to practice one’s religious beliefs has been totally ignored by this administration.  Impementation of the HHS penalties will destroy very worthwhile organizations but, perhaps not in my life time, churches and individuals will be restored to their rightful status and allowed to SERVE the people in need of health care, education and protection from abusive regulations.

We have lived with the Abortion Holocaust for 40 years.  4000+ die every day.  And you are worried about paying for contraception.  Note some of those years where under GOP majorities and presidents.  Amazing that very petty tyranny of paying a few pennies is so much more an issue than daily wholesale slaughter.

How about this… how about if the right had played ball and worked to product a Healthcare system that our Pope called a RIGHT by providing a public option we wouldn’t even be having this religious freedom discussion. Instead our Bishops and all of the right wing religious bloggers could be focusing on the fact that the USCCB condemned Ryan’s budget in 4 letters, you could focus on the fact that the USCCB is at odd with the Republicans on the issue of immigration, or perhaps the fact that their fiscal policies cause more abortions and that their pro-life talk is just lip service. Instead you continually promote the angel of light in the guise of someone who tells you what you want to hear but secretly… shoot not even secretly, openly promotes agendas that go directly against the Gospels themselves… what a sad bunch of sheep some of our religious leaders have become because they can’t see the forest for the trees.

My eldest sister lives in the Western New York Amish country. Quite frankly she and her husband who have a barter trade business with them tell me that the Amish have no idea what to do.

Amish places have been raided by the Feds. True story.

Reading the comments of the Obamabots such as Leo, cowalker and Howard, makes me painfully aware that Satan is walking the Earth, influencing many lost souls, and leading many to eternal damnation.

@Jim,

The Obama administration has gone after Amish communities everywhere.  In Lancaster county, PA, there have been several raids on Amish farmers who sold raw milk to customers AT THEIR OWN FARM because those customers were from Maryland and DC (where access to raw milk is limited by law).  The feds have cooked up cases against them, using the guise of interstate trade, despite the fact that the farmers didn’t violate any interstate trade regulations.

@ Joe:

A right to health CARE doesn’t mean a right to health INSURANCE (at least, that is what Archbishops Chaput and Nienstedt said during the Obamacare debate).  That is what a public option is, health insurance.  I am entitled to having a doctor care for me in my illness, not entitled to have someone else pay for it. 

@Jay,

Your characterization of the bishop’s support for Obamacare is misleading.  First, much of what we were told concerning the law was smoke and mirrors, and much of what we know now wasn’t revealed till AFTER it was crammed down our throats: remember Nancy Pelosi’s “You have to pass the bill to find out what’s in it”?  Only certain parts were leaked, parts that would get some people on board.  Second, the bishops did not accept Obamacare because of the provisions within that would allow for the public funding of abortion.  As it stands, the bishops have technically rejected Obamacare as passed because of its abortion provisions.  Third, there was a group of bishops, led by Archbishops Chaput and Nienstedt that opposed it because they saw it as bad law, and an an unnecessary expansion of government power.  In fact, it was Archbishop Nienstedt who said that we have a right to health CARE, not health INSURANCE.

This is not to say that the bishops don’t own part of this boondoggle, they do.  However, consider who pushed for it more than the bishops: the CHA and Sister Carol Sheehan.  It was she who argued that the law was abortion-neutral, when the USCCB claimed otherwise and fought its unamended passage.

I don’t see how it logically follows that if Catholic institutions decide to stop offering health insurance to there employees resulting in these said institutions to having to close.  A lot of Catholic institutions self-insure.  They could save a lot of overhead costs by giving there employees an increase in pay to find there own insurance either through the government plan or on the private market.  Perhaps this way more Catholic institutions can redirect more funds towards there various ministries as apposed to spending their funds on overhead. 

Provincial Gov in Canada says Catholic schools can’t teach pro-life views. It is happening in Canada. it is only a matter of time before it happens down here in the US.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ontario-gvmt-confirms-catholic-schools-cant-teach-misogynistic-pro-life-bel

Ok, so what to do?  Obviously not vote for Obama.  But, will a vote for Romney be less detrimental to religious freedom?  I see no evidence to sugest that we will fair any better under a Romney presidency.  In fact, I think that is why the issue has not come up, because there is no great difference between the two on this issue.  Look at his record in Mass.  As of this moment, I can’t see a way clear to vote for Romney either.

As soon as I posted I was reminded of what Dr. Keyes has said, we need to focus on local and state politics if we ever expect real change.  So, that is the ‘what to do.’  How many Catholics have put in the hard time researching what judges to retain or not retain, or vote for (however it works where you live)? How many know much at all about their local politicians running for office?  How many devote any time at all to local politics?  How many act as though our civic duty if fulfilled by voting one time every other year?  How many know much of anything about canidates that are not running for President?  For the most part, is great numbers, we Catholics (myself included) have failed in our civic duty.  As a result, we have no real choice for President.

Catholics deserve Obama. Our failure as Catholics produced such men.

Why should there be a difference between upholding social justice and upholding the faith of Jesus Christ, Hieronymus?

I was not aware there was any.

@Bill - I doubt that who is elected will have much impact on the economy.  The fact is that the difference between the two parties is not that big on the economy; so for example, although the Republicans have spent the whole election bashing Obama’s bailout, Bush was proposing the same thing.  (And for that matter, bin Laden’s death came because Obama merely continued Bush-era policies.)  I don’t have much hope for a big improvement in the economy, because there are too many problems that we the people, and both political parties, have been setting up for decades.  K-12 education is ASTONISHINGLY bad; our leaders (of both parties) have deliberately chosen to make us interdependent on other nations, not independent; and we have taken on debt that we know we will never pay off.  I think we peaked economically and in global influence about a decade ago, and it’s downhill from now on.  California is obviously too big a problem for any one man to fix, and the US is arguably in much the same position, so I don’t see Romney as an economic savior.  As for comparing him to Reagan—I just don’t see it.  Everyone knew what Reagan really stood for, and they either loved him or hated him for it.  I’m sure I’m not alone in having grave doubts about what Romney really will do vs. what he is willing to say to get elected.  And Reagan had charisma, something Romney doesn’t really have.  So I would see Romney ending his first term in office as an uncharismatic president who was largely stymied by the Democrat-controlled Senate, had tried to buy cooperation by soft-pedaling on “gay rights” and doing nothing further for the pro-life movement than reinstating the Mexico City Policy and appointing one or two justices whose positions on Roe v. Wade are complete mysteries, while unemployment has gradually dipped to 7.9% but real wages have continued to decline.  The Republican Party would rally to him only out of fear of a greater disaster but would pretend that he was the greatest president since George Washington.  I suppose it’s always possible for the Democrats to blow an election, but these circumstances would not allow Romney to really go out and seize the election.

The comments here mentioning the restrictions Catholics and others have faced in England, Canada and in the US remind me RJ Neuhaus’ statement that when orthodoxy is optional, it is eventually proscribed.  But it seems to me that statement is a double edged sword in that it is also an attack on the fundamentality of the American version of religious pluralism behind which we Catholics are attempting to mount a defense against the HHS mandate.

Furthermore, when people say that the 1st amendment protects religious expression from government interference in the case of the mandate, they are technically incorrect as a matter of constitutional jurisprudence.  The HHS mandate is a law of general applicability and therefore is enforceable against the Church under the Constitution just like a law against taking peyote would be enforceable against practioners of Indian religions.

It is only because of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act that we Catholics have a chance to fight this mandate.  This act however can only be used in response to federal attempts to make us do things which we think are wrong.  If a state tries to do the same, the Act is powerless to stop it.

So, the American version of religious freedom is still a long way from the right way to bring God’s kingdom to earth.  If it is true that orthodoxy being made optional eventually leads to the prescription of the same, then the seeming alternative is to make orthodoxy less optional by force of law.  You can’t get less American than that.

@Telos
ObamaCare requires, beginning in 2014, employers to provide HHS-mandate compliant insurance plans or pay heavy fines ($100/day/employee if they offer non-compliant insurance and $2000/employee/year if they drop the insurance completely).  So there is not really a realistic “opt-out” option for employers as you suggest—the cost would be prohibitive.  But this deflects from the issue of religious freedom, which is not just a Catholic issue.  It is a concern for all Americans.  “What is at stake is whether America will continue to have a free, creative, and robust civil society - or whether the state alone will determine who gets to contribute to the common good, and how they get to do it.” (“Our First, Most Cherished Liberty”)

“How long will it be till churches of any kind that refuse to hold gay “weddings” are sued and regulated into compliance? (That’s starting to happen in the U.K.)”
As a UK resident I don’t understand that statement. We don’t, as yet, have same-sex marriage in any part of the UK although both the UK (for England) and Scottish Governments have indicated their intention of changing the law in this way. So how can any church in the UK be ‘sued and regulated into compliance’ for refusing to hold gay “weddings”? It’s more than possible that that will happen once marriage is redefined but I don’t see how it can be ‘starting to happen’. 

@dixiebehr,

“Why should there be a difference between upholding social justice and upholding the faith of Jesus Christ, Hieronymus?”

You tell me - because there clearly is a difference, especially in the minds of those social-justice upholders who vote for Obama, the most pro-abortion US [resident in history…

Wow.  Reading that I am an “Obamabot” is truly amazing.  So I guess to the combox geniuses SOMEBODY in the election MUST be a secular Messiah—and if it isn’t Obama, it must be Romney.  How dare I blaspheme against your secular Messiah or question that he will save us from our sins—well, at least our “secular sins”?  Why I must surely worship that other candidate to secular Messiahhood!!  Er, no.  I’m not buying either one of them.  And before ignorantly throwing out names like that, Betty Klein, it might be time to read what the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches about the desire for secular Messiahs. 
.
“The moral of this story please attend to very well:  Exactly who the Devil is is often hard to tell.  He may be short and ugly or he may be fair and tall; he may just be the man for whom you voted in the fall.”—PDQ Bach

@Howard,

Blame the US dysfunctional election system which usually leaves the Americans only with a choice of the lesser evil (which, of course, is no choice at all).

Has not this hydrophobic hysteria over the election gone far enough?  If President Obama is re-elected, it will not be the end of Catholicism in America, and if Romney wins, we will not see the immediate establishment of a Mormon Plutocracy.
It is severely disingenuous to even suggest otherwise.
Please recall that Pope Leo XIII of blessed memory had the USA in mind when he was railing against “modernism”.  So, if you favor his rant, you must conclude that merely continuing to live and vote un the USA makes you a heretical catholic.
Any mnore silliness?

What will be next??  It not just about religious freedom - IT IS ABOUT ALL FREEDOMs!!

Dear MikefromED:
My remark about the UK came from the comments of the Deputy Prime Minister, who has floated a trial balloon proposing that churches be included in gay marriage legislation:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9379483/Nick-Clegg-backs-gay-marriage-in-churches-in-break-with-David-Cameron-pledge.html

P.M. Cameron opposes this, as of now.

I doubt that any of the overblown predictions set out in the article will ever come to pass.  The writer discredits his himself by making these silly and overblown predictions,  Secondly, no bishop will ever give up his healthcare coverage, no matter what the conditions of coverage are or will be.  So the bishops have a choice: either go without health insurance or be shown to be a hypocrit by continuing to have health coverage under the mandates of the Affordable Care Act.  My guess is that the bishops will opt to retain their health care coverage.  I will very very surpised if every member of the USCCB gives up his healthcare coverage.

Also, the writer discredits himself by th title he choose for the article.  The title alludes tot he Shoah (the Holocaust).  In no way are the mandates of the Affordable Care Act comparable to the impact of Nazi laws on the Jews of Germany and Eastern Europ during the late 130s and the through WWII.  No one is coming for the Catholic in the USA.  The writer oerplays his hand and makes himself look and sound silly.

@Lisa Kaiser—“Also, the writer discredits himself by the title he choose for the article.  The title alludes to the Shoah (the Holocaust).”  No, not really.  First of all, the quote is from Martin Niemöller, a Lutheran pastor, and it neither starts nor ends with the Jews.  It is about the near total inaction in the face of *ALL* Nazi abuses (not just toward the Jews).  Secondly, these same inactive people reassured themselves by saying things like (to paraphrase) like, “In no way are the emergency actions taken by the German government comparable to the impact of Egyptian laws on the Hebrews of Goshen.”  Your hindsight as to how bad the Nazi actions proved to be was not really available to the people when they needed to react.  It never is.

Absolutely Lisa K.  Comparisons like these really want me to pull my eyes out. While the Nazis did target Catholics in Poland (3 million Poles died in the camps), to compare AHA or any US Government program designed to help the poor is disengenuous at best, completely ignorant at worst.

It is about FREEDOMS.  Freedom to worship in the manner in which we choose and the GOVERNMENT cannot do anything about it (see First Amendment). This Freedom is defined as the government cannot mandate you believe in any one religion. It recognizes that all Americans do NOT worship or believe the same way and some not at all. For Catholics to be crying foul about something another sect sees as fair is nothing but bluster.  If Catholics really want to do something, file a civil lawsuit and sue that sect for believing the way they do. Stop relying on the government to legislate morality; it is run by humans afterall and humans by nature are extraordinarily immoral creatures.

Of course there’s an irony here. 
Ironic that the same conservatives that populate these blogs hide behind free speech and think that is a wonderful freedom are the same people who clamor about having freedom of religion but are perfectly willing to prevent a free American person from having their own freedom of religion. Really, if you do not want Cafeteria Catholics populating your parishes, I encourage you to go to your deacons, priests, monsignors,bishops etc to have them rooted out and excommunicated. (That is precisely what the Nazis did to the Jews, they separated them from the general public THEN began the systematic destruction. Unlike 1930’s Germany, I have not seen any laws requiring Catholics to wear a crucifix and forbid business owners to do business with Catholics. Please let me know if the federal government has passed such a law.)

Howard, yes really the quote refers tot he Shoah.  And again, no one is “coming’ for the Catholics.  The HHS mandate is about healthcare, its not about throwing people in prison, concentration/extermination camps, outlawing the RC faith, etc.  The writer’s choice of title is truly overblown, silly.  The HHS mandate is NOT some precursor to rounding up RCs, killing thme, outlawing the RC faith.  The writer’s title trivializes the Shoah and is an insult to all who died in Hitler’s camps, who were rounded up the Nazis and thrown in prison. 

The RCC in America, the USCCB, is whining about the fact that in the USA, women are people, are actual human beings and have rights.  The RCC will just have to deal with the fact that it cannot force the USA to adopt the RC idea that women are less beings and have no rights to control their bodies.

“The RCC in America, the USCCB, is whining about the fact that in the USA, women are people, are actual human beings and have rights.  The RCC will just have to deal with the fact that it cannot force the USA to adopt the RC idea that women are less beings and have no rights to control their bodies.”

This is what’s called an overblown argument. Nobody is forcing anybody not to use contraception. Only the courts have the legal authority to do this, and there is way to much money involved in this industry.

They are simply asking that they not be forced to subsidize it. What do you not understand?

Sorry, Lisa, but “Shoah” is a Jewish term, and Niemöller was Lutheran, not Jewish.  His poem was not about the Jewish experience per se.  Here it is auf Deutch (http://www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/4/daszitat/a31):
„Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.
Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr,
der protestieren konnte.“
It’s clear that you don’t understand this, either in English or in German, because BY THE TIME THE DEATH CAMPS WERE BUILT (1942!) IT WAS TOO LATE.  It started with smaller infringements on liberties—for example, in restricting who could teach at a university, and in making Jews wear the yellow Star of David.  So when you insist that things are nowhere as bad as they ultimately became, you’re right—just like wearing the yellow star wasn’t as bad as going to an extermination camp.  But the point is that if we don’t want evil to grow unchecked, we have to get up off our duffs and check it.  Now would be a good time.

John Zmirak is correct.

No, it is not overblown, unless one were to argue that Dr. Zmirak means us to think it is already as bad as Nazism was at its worst…and that would be putting words in his mouth.

The fact is that under the combination of ObamaCare and the HHS Mandate, there is a sort of religious test set up for owning/operating a business or organization with more than 50 employees: “Catholics Need Not Apply.” (To be more accurate: “Faithful Catholics and Those Remaining Protestants And Orthodox And Jews Who Still Remember And Practice The Historically Consistent Ethical Requirements Of Their Faith Need Not Apply.”)

For of course the difficulty is that one MUST provide health insurance coverage for one’s employees, under ObamaCare, unless one is a very small business. One is not ALLOWED to merely pay them more in their salary, one is REQUIRED BY LAW to make health insurance part of their compensation if they’re full-time or even close to full-time. Failure to do this costs something like $2000 per employee.

But, according to the HHS mandate, the coverage purchased MUST include contraceptives, abortifacients, voluntary sterilization, and the like. And under the HHS requirements for insurers, all plans are required to include these things; there will be no exceptions allowed. (At one time a “compromise” was floated which allowed an insurance-provider to offer one plan without these things covered, provided that it cost exactly the same as the other plans—which meant, of course, that the person paying for that plan was subsidizing the other ones. But that “compromise” obviously changed nothing substantial, and was later withdrawn; it is the version of the mandate without the “compromise” which was made law.)

So you see that under the combination of these Obama-advocated policies, the government will punish you for not providing health insurance, and will punish health insurers for not providing abortifacients, et cetera, as part of their coverage. Thus, in combination, Obama is saying: I will punish you financially, if you don’t compensate your employees partially in the form of contraceptive/abortion/sterilization services.

The estimated damages for a large organization can run in the millions of dollars annually, since this is a per-employee punishment.

Of course, people must obey God first, rather than man. So, those who do not violate their consciences will simply have to pay the annual fine, which of course they won’t be able to afford, which of course means they’ll go out-of-business. This will result in a fire-sale of their facilities to other people without the same conscience objections, who won’t at all mind being able to buy said facilities at fire-sale prices.

Would you be surprised to find these potential buyers shoving money in the direction of Obama’s reelection campaign? I know I wouldn’t. A good investment is a good investment.

At any rate, the Administration has been very clever. By doing much less damage than, say, a Kristallnacht, and by implementing a two-pronged strategy in which two different policies wedge Catholics into an untenable space but in which one policy was not even Congressional legislation, they have managed to dupe millions into dismissing the issue as much ado about nothing, and any complaints as frivolous.

And that’s the way they hope it’ll go, right up to the moment Planned Parenthood expands by taking over Catholic-run free community health clinics that the former owners could no longer afford to run.

Comparing the HHS mandate to anything policy, law, or regulation of Nazi Germany is silly.  There is no comparison.  It is just whining by the RCC in the US.  The RCC wants to assume victimhood and by a mouthpiece of the extreme right wing of the GOP. 

Also, the RCC does not want to acknowledge that the USA is not an RC theocracy, that it cannot control the lives/bodies of American women (including RC women) in the USA.  The RCC does not want to acknowledge that women are truly human beings who have the right to make their own healthcare decisions without the interference of the RCC.

Howard,

It does not matter that Niemoller was Christian, he was speaking of the experience of the Jews (of of course of others) in Nazi Germany. His horizons were broader than yours.  The Shoah is not a “Jewish term”.  It is a word that better describes the events the Nazis perpetrated against Jews.  The HHS mandate is NOT evil and has nothing to do with religious persecution. Ther is NO compairiosn between what Nazis did to Jews, gays, communistist, Slavs, the mentally handicapped, the Poles, etc and the HHS mandate.  Yoou have no historical perspective and no sense of porportion.

Again,  this is just whining by some extrem right-wing RCs and the Vatican (out-of touch right-wing old men) and the USCCB.

Bravo to Obama and to the HHS for protecting owmen agaisnt the hatred and bigotry of the RCC.

Howard,

There simply is no point in arguing with Lisa’s ignorance. You can give her all the facts and she will still yell, scream and insult.

Savvy,

No, I am not ignorant of the facts.  The facts are that, the HHS mandate is in no way comparable to any act of the Nazi government in Germany.  Fact:  the HHS mandate is not evil.  Fact: the RCC wnats to try to control the lives and bodies of women because the RCC does not see women as human beings.  Fact: the religious freedom of the RCC is not being threatened or compromised by the HHS mandate.  Fact:  teh RCC in the US is now just a mouthpiece of the extreme right-wing of the GOP.  Fact:  No one is “coming” for Catholic in the USA.  If the RCC wants to see true religious persecution, it should talk to Christians and Jews of the Middle East.  Fact: the USCCB wants to use the HHS mandate as a way to assume some unjustified mantle of victimhood.  Fact: the RCC is just plain whining about recogniation of the rights of American women.  Fact: no matter the outcome of RCC lawsuits concerning teh HHS mandate, no bishop will ever give up his health insurance coverage, even if he denies it to those employed by his diocese.  Fact:  the RCC perpetuates unhealthy, immature, irrational, unscientific, illogical attitudes about and towards women, sex, sexuality.  Fact: these attitudes by the RCC hierarchy and its covering up for and enabling of pedophile priests ahs caused a global mass exodus of RCs from the pews of the RCC.

Really, Lisa’s objection has nothing to do with the title of this article.  She disagrees with the author, with the USCCB, and with the Catholic Church, but it wouldn’t do to simply come out and say that she rejects the article only because she doesn’t like what it says.  No, it is much safer to fake learning by referring to “the Shoah (the Holocaust)”, and assume that you are educating ignorant people who will be impressed with the word “Shoah”; even better, you get to sow the notion, already present in the trendy books and magazines, that there is something anti-Semitic about Catholicism.  It’s an approach that would probably work with her Facebook friends, so it must be something of a surprise to find it doesn’t work everywhere.

“Fact: no matter the outcome of RCC lawsuits concerning teh HHS
mandate, no bishop will ever give up his health insurance coverage, even if
he denies it to those employed by his diocese.

This is speculation on your part.

“Fact: the RCC perpetuates
unhealthy, immature, irrational, unscientific, illogical attitudes about and
towards women, sex, sexuality.”“

Complete lies. I challenge you to read, the Book “Love and Responsibility”. It totally converted by anti-Catholic feminist friend.

“Fact: these attitudes by the RCC hierarchy
and its covering up for and enabling of pedophile priests ahs caused a
global mass exodus of RCs from the pews of the RCC.”

More lies. The exodus began before this. There is no single reason. Some become Evangelicals because they thought the church was actually too liberal.  Others left because they thought it was too conservative.

Further more the decline is now across all churches.

You are not up to the mark.

Howard,

Lisa is a bigot and hater. You are right that her issues have nothing to do with this article.

Savvy and Howard,

Wow, you two are too much!  Yes, my objections do have to do with the title of the article, as I have clearly stated.  And since when is the use of the word Shoah a sign of “fake learning”??  What a bizarre comment, Howard.  Shoah is an entirely correct and appropriate word to use. Are one of the anti-education, anti-science, anti-intellect members of the tea party/extreme right-wing of the GOP?  Your comment indicates that you are afraid of education/learning.  And no, I do not think that the RCC is anti-Semitic.  That is another bizarre and false conclusion you are drawing from my comments.  I have not even hinted in my comments that I think the RCC is anti-Semitic.  Since Vatican II and the publication of Nostra Aetate, the RCC has definitely cleaned up its act in that regard.

And yes, I disagree with the antiquated, irrational, illogical, immature, unhealthy , hateful, bigoted, immoral and unscientific attitudes of the RCC towards women, sex and sexuality.  And I disagree with the RCC’s alliance with the extreme right wing of the GOP, ita unjustified and overblown whining about the HHS mandate, and its unjustified assumption of victimhood in regard to the HHS mandate.  The RCC is not above the law of the USA, nor is it above criticism.  The RCC is far far far from perfect.  And that not an expression of hatred ( I do NOT hate the RCC), but it an expression of the facts.

Lisa,

And we disagree with your views. They can rightly be called hate and slander.

Furthermore Lisa,  I never brought up the GOP, you did. I simply gave you a book recommendation.  An open-minded person would have said, “Thanks for the recommendation, I will read it.”

A bigot would continue to yell, scream and insult. I do not have to be Einstein to figure out which category you belong too.

Savvy, no my remarks are not hate and slander.  You missed the part where I said I do NOT hate the RCC.  You perhaps do not want to face up to the fact the bishop and the RCC are not perfect.  That is just blindness on your part.

Savvy,

I appreciate the book recommendation. But given the source of the recommendation, the book is probably just more right-wing nonsense.  I certainly feel no obligation to read it just because you recommended it. And it is your comments that reveal that you have a close mind and are blind to the facts about the RCC.

Yes, I brought up the GOP because it is clear that the RCC in the US, is now just a mouthpiece and tool of the GOP.  The USCCB rarely criticizes the GOP even when the policies of the GOP are clearly in oppostion to RC social teaching.  The USCCB and its individual members just aprrot the GOP line.  Its pathethic really

Savvy,

You say I am “not up to the mark”.  What a bizarre and nonsensical comment. 

Yes, the exodus of RCs really began after the publication of Humanae Vitae.  And yes, there are many other reasons why RCs have rightly fled the RCC: the immature, unhealthy, bigoted, illogical, immoral, unscientific attitudes of the RC hierarchy in regard to woemn and in regard to all aspects of sex and sexuality.  The acts of the bishops in covering up for and enabling pedophile priests, the fact that there are pedophile priests, financial mismanagement of the assets the RCC has by way of gifts/donations from the laity, the hierarchy’s refusal to see that the ality have a rightful role in the governance of the RCC at all levels, the recent and silly march back tot he Middle Ages that the Vatican and bishops have undertaken.

If the the US courts rule that the RCC in the US has to abide by the HHS mandate, I will be eager to see how many bishops will proudly delcare that they have given up their health insurance!  I ber that number will be a big fat zero (much like Cardinal Dolan)  Yes, I speculate about that.  But really, do you expect these guys who live very well off the laity, parade around in their lace, Prada, silk, capa magna, big rings, fancy cars, to give up health insurance??? How will they maintain their lifestyle if they have to pay out of pocket for healthcare?  Who will pay for their big cars, fancy meals, support their out-wedlock children, if they have to pony up for healthcare?  The bishops may deny health insurance to people who work for a diocese, but the bishops will never give up their perks—they are too corrupt and venal.

Lisa,

The book is not a right wing source. I am not American. Why can’t you Americans seriously leave your politics out of everything. This is true regardless of political party.

You are entitled to your views, but I am still going to call them parroting 60s claptrap.

The real issue is your old liberal friends. The good news is they are dying off. Young Catholic women like me are fed up of their tunnel vision and endless whining and complaining.

Savvy,

The 1960s, the era of Vatican II, was the Goldern Era of the RCC.  Too bad you think its “claptrap”.  You must be too young and ill-informed about the RCC of the 1960s to realize that the best of the RCC happened as a result of Vatican II.  Since JPII, the RCC has begun an ill-fated march back to the Middle Ages.

So you think that us liberals are dying off!!  Very funny and very ill-informed.  We are Baby Boomers who will be around for decades yet—all of us “old liberals:” will live to be at least 100 yrs old.  Don’t write us off yet.  Thankfully, we will be around for a loooong time to come.  Don’t overrate whatever you are calling youth.  Us “old liberals” have lots of life experience that allow us to be amused at “young Catholic women” like you who think life is black & white, who think that the current RCC is somehow perfect.

“Young Catholic women” like you will only accomplish one thing:  you will preside over the collapse and death of the RCC.  The pews are empty now and “young Catholic women” like you will assure that they empty out even more completely.  “Young Catholic women” like you will assure that the RCC will continue to become even more corrupt and irrelevant, even more wedded to the failed ideas of those who persecuted Galileo.  ” Young Catholic women” like you will assure that the largest group of Catholics in the world are former Catholics. 

Your comments convince me even further that any book recommendation from you is a waste of time.

Lisa,

Your comments prove my point. They totally crack me up. Your the one who sees the world in black and white. Old, cynical and in despair.

Savvy,

No, I do not see the world in black and white.  I understand that every situation in life is nuanced and layered.  Your comments that I am “old, cynical and in despair” are laughable, incorrect, and just bizarre.  You are grasping at straws because you clearly cannot disprove anything I have said about the RCC.  You also reveal that you are ageist, that you worship youth as an idol.  By disparging the greater, deeper and longer experience of others show your lack of intelligence, your lack of depth, your lack of gravitas.  Hopefully you will outgrow your shallowness.

What us “old liberals” what is a vibrant, open, inclusive, energetic, ever changing RCC.  Because such an RCC in cooperation with Judaism and Islam will make the world a better place, will achieve what Jews call tikkun olam (repair of the world).  What “young Catholic women” like you want is an RCC marching backwards into the Middle Ages.  A march that will lead to the collapse and death of the RCC.  In looking at God’s created universe these things are clear:  that God created all things to change, that God’s creation is dynamic, not static, that diversity (bio-diversity, diverstiy of systems, environments) leads to strength & longevity; that what does not change and adapt will become extinct. The RCC you support wants to be exclusive, static, never changing.  That is the recipe fro extinction.

Lisa,

Your comments about me are inaccurate too Lisa.  Has it ever occurred to you that a world exists beyond your definitions of liberal/conservative, and outside your social circles.

1. None of the churches I have been to are empty. They are always full.
2. I participate in regular readings on the Second Vatican council.
3. I am aware that nobody is perfect.
4. I am in full favour of diversity. I just do not buy into the Marxist view of it.
5. The church I support does not have tunnel vision, but is young, vibrant, alive, and happy.

Savvy,

I certainly never mentioned Marxism.  Diversity has nothing to do with Marxism.  And Marxism has nothing to do with diversity.  I don’t have tunnel vision nd my social circles is very wide.  My eyes are wide open and what is obvious is that the RCC is destroying itself because the, just like you, the RCC disparges the “old liberals”.  The RCC of today is marching backwards and if you support the RCC of today, you are marching backwards right along with it.

If you think I have tunnel vision or support an RCC with tunnel vision, then you are truly misreading my comments.  And perhaps you read regularly about Vatican II, but the RCC you support does not support Vatican II and wants to march back into the Middle Ages.  And reading about it is not the same as having lived it.  The churches you attend may be full, but perhaps that is because there are fewer of them as there has been a mass exodus from the RCC, as you admitted above. 

If the church you attend is “young, vibrant, alive and happy” you must have priest who is an “old liberal” who likes Vatican II. Keep that info secret!  The RC hierarchy you support does not like that. The RC hierarchy of today is about power,profit and privilege.  They want you to pray, pay and obey.  They want you to act like an uneducated peasant in the pew.  They want to gut the reforms of Vatican II.  They want to turn the USA and other nation into RC theocracies.  And if you are a woman, they want you to keep quiet and go away.  Perhaps you think your church is young, alive, vibrants and ahppy, because you have not really seen those things in a church and you just think that because you have nothing to compare it to.

“If the church you attend is “young, vibrant, alive and happy” you must have priest who is an “old liberal” who likes Vatican II. Keep that info secret! “

Wrong, Lisa the priests are young and Orthodox.  I have seen the other side, but that’s not not the only side there is.  You pretend like there are only two models.  I disagree with your conspiracy theories and since we are not going to agree.  So, I will take your leave.

Savvy,

If you think I believe in conspiracy theories, you are truly misreading my comments.  Young and orthodox (marching towards the Middle Ages)= the collapse of the RCC.

Lisa,.

I feel sorry for you, and will pray for your return to the Roman Catholic Church and your eternal soul.

Robert,

The RCC is not the only place to which God calls people.  God has called me elsewhere.  So you do not need to feel sorry for me or pray for me.  I am following God’s call in my life.  Just worry about yourself.

\\Because such an RCC in cooperation with Judaism and Islam will
make the world a better place, \\

I don’t know what planet you’re from, but you are obviously newly arrived here on Terra, Lisa Kaiser.

The first thing you need to know about mahometans is that they want to ANNIHILATE both Christians and Jews, not join with them. Even the Coran says not to take Christians as friends, and that Jews are descended from apes and pigs. If you don’t believe me, read jihadwatch.org or other sites that enumerate the mahometan attacks on churches, the kidnapping, rape, and forced conversion of Christian girls, and the murder of priests. The most recent of these was Fr. Fadi Hadad in Syria just last week.

dixibehr,

“Mahometans”????  Really???  The Quaran is not the only scripture to have problematic passages.  The Bilbe, both testaments, is full of problematic passages.  Judaism is more than 4,000 yrs old, Christainity more than 2,000 yrs old.  Islam is just about 1,600 yrs old.  Every faith has had its growing pains and problems. Christainity has never been perfect and has its own long dark history of murder, torture, violence, forced conversion, destruction of civilizations, bigotry, corruption, intolerance.  The Islam we seee now is about where Christianity was in the Middle Ages.  Christianity changed, evolved, moved past its violence.  Islam will as well.  It may take centuries, as it did with Christianity. Hopefully, with rapid global communication, education, efforts to work togethr, the process will be shorter. 

And remember, not all Muslims are the same, not all beleive the same thing, not all read their scriptures literally. 

In the meantime, we can work to build bridges among the 3 Abrhamic traditions.  That is our only hope for peace and progress in the world.

Lisa,

Please worry about yourself. The RCC and the rest can take care of ourselves. I am really fed up of this bickering. Have a nice life Lisa.

”  Young and orthodox (marching towards the Middle Ages)= the collapse of the RCC.”

ROFL.

Savvy,

I know its a shock for some RCs when not everyone in the world buys into the RCC’s version of reality.  I am most certainly not worried about the RCC—it is happily working hard to create its own demise.  So no, I am not worried.  Its Robert in the above post who is worried.  Talk to him.

Lisa,

In that case, you have just been wasting your time and everybody’s else’s by your non-stop nonsensical ranting.

Savvy,

This is an open comment thread and I am free to express an opinion.  I have not engaged in “nonsensical ranting”.  I have expressed the facts re the RCC.  For some RCs its hard to accept the current hard facts re the RCC.  The RCC is creating its own demise & RC bishops around the world are just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.  You, of course, are free to deny the facts, to deny reality, to bury your head in the sand.  That won’t stop the demise of the RCC, but perhaps it will help you feeel better.

Lisa,

You are not the only one in the world with facts. My Orthodox Jewish friends are predicting just the opposite.

Savvy, 

Your Othodox Jewsih friends are predicting that the RCC will not collapse due its own actions?  What are the facts upon which they base this prediction?

Lisa,

They go out more, and now that there is a lot more out there than an either/or.

Savvy,

You have not really answered my questions.  Your Orthodox Jewish friends base their prediction that the RCC will not collapse becuase they go to Mass, because they do a lot of reading about the RCC, because they have long experience with the traditions of the RCC?  Because they hang out with priests and vowed women religious?  What are they basing their predicition on? 

And what tradition of Orthodox Judaism do your friends follow? There are a number of Othodox Jewish traditions.  There is more than one way to be an Orthodox Jew and the tradition your friends follow goes a long way in forming their opnions of the world.  Are they Modern Orthodox?  Do they follow one of the Hasidic traditions (even with the Orthodox Hasidic community, there are variations)  And of course not all Jews are Orthodox.  As the traditions of Christianity vary, so do the traditions of Judaism.  There is Modern Orthodox Judais,, there is is Reform Judaism, there is Conserviative Judaism, there is Reconstructionist Judaism, there is Renewal Judaism.

“Because they hang out with priests and vowed women religious?

This is correct. Most of them are modern Orthodox. These predictions are being based on the fact, that mainline Protestant churches are declining even faster. Serious Christians have few options left. Rome, Eastern Orthodox or Evangelicals.

Savvy,

Priests and vowed women religious have a vested interested in believing that the RCC will not collapse.  If the RCC does not collapse, it will be becaue o the vowed women religious.  The all-male hieriarchy is corrupt and is the main danger to the RCC.  There are serious Christians in all Christian traditions.  And as you admitted above, there has been a mass exodus of RCs from the RCC (and that does not mean those folks are not “serious Christians”).  So given where are Modern Orthodox Jewish firends are getting their info, its best to take their prediction with large grain of salt.  BTW, being a Modern Orthodox Jew is not the same as being an Orthodox Jew. There are similarities, but there are large differences as well.

The facts re the RCC point decidely toward collapse.  Not because of
modernism” or “secularism”, but because of the RCC’s own actions, faults, and coruuption in the all-male hieriarchy. 

I tentatively want to say that I think some persecution would be good for the church.  It is so easy to become complacent and assume that Catholics and other groups will always have certain religious freedoms in this country.  This is not the case in the rest of the world, it wasn’t the case for early Christianity, or in Jesus’ time.  I welcome it.

Wow! Lisa Kaiser is so anti-Catholic. We have the promise of Christ that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and will remain until the end of time. No matter what she says she cannot compete with that. She also seems to think that morality and doctrine can change. Sadly she is and always will be wrong until she sees the Truth and splendor of the Catholic Church.

Lisa,

I stand by my statements that you are a parrot with tunnel vision, who cannot see beyond partisan politics.

Sam,

I have read V2 documents, and I can’t figure out what she sees in them, that we don’t. Perhaps invisible ink.

I suppose

Lisa,
If ignorance is bliss, Savvy is one exstatic individual. Why do you continue to fight with such an imbecile like Savvy? He/ she obviously does not understand American Catholicism and certainly does not understand American Politics.
I grew up in the hey day of American Catholicism after Vatican II.  By the time was I attending CCD and catholic school, the nuns had fully embraced the liberalism endorsed by Vatican II.  When Carol Wojtyla became Pope JPII it was a time of rejoice and we Catholics saw great hope.  He did so much to reach out to marginal catholics and bring them in for better understanding. Prior to his death, he gave the Americans a firm warning on pre-emptive war. Politicians- yes Catholic Politicians- ignored that warning; the Bishops’ silence was deafening.
But now, we are supposed to join the Catholic bandwagon and rally against some mythical Nazi-esque attack on Catholics. Really?

Sam,

I a not anti-Catholic. I ama gainst the blatant corruption and criminal activity of the hierarchy—financial mismanagement, covering up for and enabling pedophile priests (that kind of thing).  The RCC, while not the sole depository of God’s truth and glory, does carry much promise.  The promise it carries is in joining with Jews and Muslims and with other Christians in achieving what Jews call tikkun olam (repair of the world). 

God is too great, too unknowable, too beyond any human understanding to be contained within one human faith tradition.  When Moses encountered God at the burning bush, Moses asks God give him God’s name.  God refuses.  Wise commentators on that passage say that God responded in that way because God know that to name something is to put it in aox, to limit it.  The usual tranlsation of Go’s response is “I Am Who Am.  In the original Hebrew, God’s response can be translated in the future tense:  I AM Who I Will Be.”  Another words, God cannot be limited, cannot be put in a box, cannot be contained by any human faith.

There are 3 Abrahamic traditions—each created by God, each equally valid, each with an ongoing and unbroken covenant with God, none greater or better than the other two.

Savvy, 

Your last comment indicates that you know I am right and that you cannot prove otherwise.  I am not parroting anything.  My opinions and observations are my own.  I do not have tunnel vision. On the contrary, I see the bigger picture of the RCC and its not pretty.  And in my comments I have never mentioned partisan politics.  Don’t where you got that from my comments.

Satrzec,

You are right, of course

Lisa is obviously an anti-Catholic bigot who is getting some type of sick thrill being on a Catholic web-site attacking people who do not agree with her.  Go spew your hate somewhere else, and yes, I will continue to pray for the salvation of your soul, undeserving though it may be.

Starzec,

Catholic Bishops opposed the war, so do not lie. Here is the official statement.

http://old.usccb.org/bishops/iraq.shtml

Lisa,

You see the picture that you want to see. Nobody here opposes the things you do. The issue is that you try to use this to demonize everybody.

Savvy,

You again you misread my comments.  I am not demonizing anyone.  And the picure re the RCC is very clear. There is much reliable news coverage and reliable analysis of the RCC’s current situation.  And its not a pretty picture.

Robert, 

Disagreeing with the RCC’s ideas, disagreeing with the corruption and crimoinal activity activity of the RC bishops is NOT the smae thing as bieng anti-Catholic.  The problem witht he RCC is that it fails to fulfill its potential.  And that is tragic.

You do not need to pray for my soul and you have no right to judge.  Only God ahs the right to judge.  God is the God of love.  God’s grace and love are given to all, unconditionally.  so you do not have to pray form.  God and I have it covered

Lisa,

Your comments show that you have never actually read the Christian Bible. You should just stop talking and go away.

Robert,

I think its perhpas you who has never read the Bible.  My comments are accurate.  And the Bible is the scripture of both Jews and Christians, not just Christians.  And of course, the Bible refers to the covenant God made with Islam as well. Read the sections in Genesis that have to do with Abraham, Sara, Hagar and Ishmael. Hagr is Abraham’s concubine and Ishamael is is Abraham’s son by Hagar.  Sara forces Hagar and Ishamael out.  But God promises to make the descendants of Ishamael (the Muslims) a great nation.  The same promise God make to Abraham.  And God’s promises are ongoing and unbroken to this day. Nowhwere in the Bible does it say the RCC is the sole repository of God’s truth.  The Bible I use is the New American Bible—the one approved by the US Catholic Caonference of Bishops.  Its translations is very good.  If you are looking for a Bible, the NAB is an excellent one.

Lisa Kaiser,

You write:

“iI have not engaged in “nonsensical ranting</i>.”

Allow me to cite but one example of a nonsensical, and unquestionably mistaken, ranting comment that you made. On TuesdayOct 30, 2012 at 12:53 PM (EST) you posted a comment that included the following statement:

“The RCC does not want to acknowledge that women are truly human beings who have the right to make their own healthcare decisions.”

If you wish to make that assertion you need to provide a direct citation of a quotation where the, or any, Bishop of the Catholic Church has suggested that any American woman should be prevented from obtaining contraceptives, (excluding those substances which you might think of as “contraceptives,” but which are, in point of indisputable fact, abortifacients, rather than compounds which solely prevent ovulation and/or fertilization). Making the sort of untrue and inflammatory claim which you made repeatedly on this thread, is clearly ranting, unless you wish to escape such a charge by affirming that it was a consciously deliberate lie.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

Lisa,

The only reliable news source is get religion. That holds the media accountable for their biased coverage of religion.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/

There is also my lived experience and that of others that I know.

Lisa,

The last I checked the NT is not the scripture of the Judaism. And the Jewish Bible does differ in ways from the Christian one and the Catholic Bible from the Protestant one.

As far as historical facts, any credible historian will tell you that it’s the Catholic church that compiled the Christian Bible. How would we know what books should be in it and in what order otherwise?

Lisa Kaiser,

Further, what you are really complaining about is that you want to have access to contraceptives and you want that access to be funded by everyone else, because, regrettably, there is no legal obstacle whatsoever to any woman’s obtaining contraception, abortion or abortifacients in the overwhelming majority of these United States, with the sole possible exception of that woman being unable to pay for such services. That, not some sense of being disrespected or dishonored as a woman, is what you argue for. Unless and until Roe v. Wade is overturned, if it ever is, you are unable to deal with the reality that what goods and services one wants require resources to acquire. All of your other arguments are nothing but vituperation and mud-slinging.

Keith Töpfer

Martial Artist,

Good job, she can also provide us a citation from the catechism, to prove her outrageous theories.

Savvy,

It is clear that you want to avoid the facts about the current state of the RCC.  You think that there is only one relaible soure of information about religion???  You think that anything that is critical of the RCC is biased coverage.  You think that the RCC is without fault, without sin???  So its OK that pedophile priests abuse children and that bishops cover that up and just transfer thses guys to new place where they can abuse other children???  And that any coverage of those facts by the Boston Globe, the New York Times, CNN, the BBC etc is biased coverage???  And you think I have tunnel vision????

Lisa,

I never claimed the church is without sin. I am concerned about your theological theories about Catholicism, which are totally insane.

This is a great article by John Zmirak.  It is IMPORTANT TO VOTE, especially against those who work against religious freedom!!! 

While liberals and pro-choicers are trying to creat doubt in the minds of conservatives and pro-lifers, it is important to keep in mind that, even if anyone develops doubts because of the liberal propaganda, do not sit out election day.  Vote for the “lesser of 2 evils” (there isn’t a 2nd “evil” here, just being hypothetical).

Mitt Romney is pro-life, and his selection of Paul Ryan as the VP candidate speaks about his ability to choose someone with great application of Catholic teaching.  Paul Ryan’s voting record was rated 100% by the National Right To Life Committee, indicating a pro-life record.  This includes:
1) voted to defund Planned Parenthood
2) voted to prohibit taxpayer funding of abortion
3) voted for the Prenatal Nondiscrimination act
4) voted to prohibit late term abortions

Remember that Preident Obama has nominated and hired mostly pro-choicers, not pro-lifers, wherever the issue comes up.

Also Lisa, NEWSFLASH: I have NEVER been abused. I do not have friends or family who have been. And incase you are going to ask me No I do not support this happening to others. It is heartbreaking, but I will not let you or anybody else define me or my faith.

cthlc12345,

You are going off-topic.

Savvy,  the NT is not the scripture of Judaism.  But both testaments of the Bible are the scripture of Christainity.  And both Jews and Christians believe in the Hebrew scripture. For example, passages from Hebrew scripture are part of the RC Mass. Passages from Hebrew wcripture are read in the Easter Vigil liturgy (starting with Genesis, going then to Exodus).  The RCCC frequently misappropriates passages from the Psalms and form the Prophets (Isiah in particular) to refer to Jesus. The RCC includes the Books or Ruth, Esther and the Songs of Songs in its Bible. The Hebrew scriptures were not assembled by the RCC.  As for the NT, the order of the Gospels is arbitrary.  There is no real reason for the order that they are in. For example, there are not in chronological order.  Mark’s writings are oler than Matthew’s yet, Matthew’s writing appears first.  There is nothing special aobut the order of the Gospels or of the Epsitles for that matter.

Lisa

You are a fraud, and it is clear that you are not even Christian. You are more wiccan than anything else.  To Savvy, and all of the other true Catholics, I urge you to stop engaging in a substantive discussion with Lisa the fake.  She is playing games with each of you for some twisted reason.  As for me, Lisa, no matter how insulting, ridiculous, or condescending your comments continue to be, this is my last posting on this issue.

Savvy,

I never said you were abused.  Wehre do you come up these total misreadings of my comments???

And no my idease about the RCC are not insane.  You just do not wnat to face facts.

Lisa,

I am fed up of your slander. Goodbye Lisa.

Robert,

You clearly know nothing of either Christianity or the Wicaan thing if you think I am a Wiccan.  Where do you get that bizarre idea????  You are clearly outclassed in the area of Biblical knowledge and for some bizarre reason, you think that makes me a Wiccan.  Wow!  You clearly failed to take advantage of the educational opportunities that were offered to you.

Savvy,

Thank you for leaving.  If Robert and Martial Artist left, perhaps an intelligent discussion could ensue.  I know that’s a lot to expect, but one always holds out hope.

Yes, there are lots of new sources such as this book , that gives a balanced analysis of both the pros and cons in the church. But, I don’t expect close minded bigots like Lisa to read it, but it’s worth a try.

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/catholic-books/catholic-tide-continues-to-turn/sku/94383

Oh Savvy, first of all More and Aquinas are long dead.  Neither has anything to say about the current condition of the RCC. Secondly, by bringing up More and Aquinas you prove my point:  you are happy with the RCC that is rooted in amd marching back toward the Middle Ages Did you know that More was a happy participant in the Inquisition in England?  He was happy to torture and murder people who did not agree with the RCC.  While More had many good qualities, he was hardly a good Christian.  Where in the NT does Jesus say to torture and murder people if they disagree with you?

Again, God created all things to evolve and change, to adapt to their environment.  If you do not believe that, ask yourself where the dinosaurs are today?  they once ruled the earth.  Do they now?  Ask yourslef what happend tot he Neanderthal people Outside of the RCC bishops, where are the neanderthals now (sorry, could not resist!)?  dinosaurs and the Neanderthals are prime examples of what happens when living cretures cannot adpat tot heir enviroment, when they do not change, do not go forward. What does not evolve and changes goes extinct.  You may also want to read some de Chardin re evolutiona nd the Omega Point.  In case you don’t know, de Chardin was a Jesuit priest and theologian and scientist.  A march by the RCC back to the Middle Ages is the RCC leading itself to extinction, away from the Omega Point.

And no, I am not a bigot.  I am not fan of the clear corruption in the RCC.

And Savvy,

Let me remind you that it was you who said, “The only reliable news source is get religion. That holds the media accountable for their biased coverage of religion.”  You apparently the close-minded person here. 

Lisa,

You are bigot, since the book is not about Aquinas or Thomas More, but the church today. More was simply enacting laws established by the Queen and the Crown. Nothing to do with the Catholic church.

You are also ignorant.

I have read De-chardin. What he means by evolution is that leaving behind of Monotheism altogether, because it’s old and absolute. This includes Orthodox Judaism, traditional Christianity and Islam.

Lisa,

I should clarify: Get religion is the only source that seeks to hold the media accountable for reporting on religion.

Savvy,

First of all, Thomas More never worked for any Queen of England. He worked for Henry VIII and was put to death by Henry VIII.  More was participating in the RC Inquistion as it was in place in England (the Inquistion happened over the course of 600 yrs throughout Europe and in the New World).

Yes, there a good things happening in the RCC.  Because lay people and vowed women religious make them happen.  But overall, and as you have admitted, there has been a mass exodus from the RCC.  The RC bishops are arrogant and corrupt.  They do not live the word of God and they are leading the RCC to extinction.  There was time the RCC did not exist in the world, the RC bishops are making certain that such a time will come again.  You just do not want to face facts.

Lisa,

More was put to death, because he refused to sign the act of supremacy, that held that the King was the absolute head of the state, not because he was participating in any inquisition.

The Mass exodus is now across ALLl churches Lisa, including ones that subscribe to your liberal views.

The facts are that you are a bigot and hater, not matter how much you deny it.

I meant the absolute head of the church.

Savvy,

God is truly Other and truly unknowable. de Chardin explores interesting ideas.  He may be right, he may be wrong, he may have hit upon the partial truth.  God’s creation is the primary source of what we know about God.  It is the pure and unfiltered action of God.  Even scripture is filtered through the people who wrote it, the people who read it and the people who attempt to interpret it and the people who interpet the interpretations,

And just any FYI, there are many other Jews in the world besides Orthodox Jews.  Judaism does not belong to Orthodox Jews, any more than Christianity belong to the RCC or to “traditional Christians”.  Also, there are sects within Islam.  The Abrahamic traditions, while monotheistic, are not monolithic.  And outside of the Abrahamic traditions, perahs the Sikhs, the Buddhists, the Hinud, etc also express some truth about God.

Lisa,

In Christianity, God is knowable through Jesus Christ, who reveals God to us. Monotheism is not monolihtic, but it’s also not pantheistic. Divine transcendence is the concept that creation is not born from within like from a mother, but from without like from a father. This makes us theist, and the language used for God is masculine. This is why the incarnation of the son of God was male. This makes us all feminine in relation to God, regardless of biological sex. The church is therefore the Bride, Christ is the groom.

The reverse would make us pantheist, where God is our creation, rather than the other way around. And where creation is not separate from us.

Those arguing for certain reforms do so along political lines. They still have not explained how we could accept their ideas and still be theist.

Savvy,

Nothing Jesus said was new.  Jesus, an observant Jew, steeped in his faith and tradition, taught straight from the Torah.  At the time Jesus lived, the Torah was already ancient.  He acted like all good preachers—he sought to make scripture relevant and compelling to the people of his time and place.  He revealed nothing new about God and Jesus was not God. The concept and definition of messiah is found in Hebrew scripture.  Jesus does not meet the definition of messiah.  Also God is not excleusively male or female.  God is not human and God is beyond such things.  We are all in the image of God, so perahps God is both male and female or neither male nor female nor any anything we humans would recognize.  The bride/groom imagery is just metaphor and not literal.  The focus on God as male, as father or the focus on the fact that Jesus was male—all of that is the product of the outmoded and misogynist male hierarchy.  It has nothing to do with the truth of God.  The focus on God as male is just human prejudice and human desire to define power in a certain way.  Again, in Hebrew scripture, God is recognized as having male and female aspects. The Presence of God is a female aspect—Shekinah. The original word means the dwelling or settling, and denotes the dwelling or settling of the divine presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem.  Divine transcendence has nothing to do with male or female or with creation It is the idea that God is beyond us, that God transcends us in every way and inways beyond our understanding, in ways that humans will never be able to comprehend.

Savvy,

I did not say that More was put death because he was participating in the Inquistion.  He did participate in murder and torture as an agent of the RC Inquistion, but I did not say that was why he was put to death.  Again you misread my comments.  You mistakenly indicat3ed that More worked for some Queen of England.  I pointed out the correct hsitory—that More worked for Henry VIII and was put to death by Henry VIII.

And no, I am not a bigot and a hater.  I correctly point out the facts about the RCC and that the RCC, through its own actions will, make itself extinct.  That is neither hate nor bigotry. You want to hide from the facts and want to call any well-deserved criticism of the RCC, hate and bigotry.  Repeating your lies does not transform them into truth.

Lisa,

I do not share your theories on theology. I understand that you do not accept Jesus as Messiah or share the Christian concept of God. Fine, but you have no right to tell us what to believe, and vice versa.

For us, God has been revealed through Jesus Christ, God-made man. This is not misogyny, but part of the plan of God, in Christianity.

These are our scriptures and Gospel. The bride/bridegroom might be a metaphor, but it’s the strongest one that describes God desire for us.

If you do not share them fine, but do not start a religious war.

Savvy,

I am not telling you what to believe or “starting a religious war”.  That is solely your interpretation.  And I am not certain that you accurately set out the “Christain concept of God.”  And you certainly do not set out correctly the Christain idea of creation. That “creation is from without like a father” and that is why Jesus as God was male.  Human interpret God in ways that reflect our cultures, the times in which we live, the places in which we live. God as male reflects human ideas and has nothing to do with how God is.  God as male reflects a male-oriented human culture.  God is beyond or outside of male or female. Even Paul says that in your Christ there is no male or female.  If it makes you feel better about God to believe God is male, then go for it. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you.  Not even all Christian agree with you.

Lisa,

God is spirit.  I simply said the incarnation was male. The reasons are not cultural, but theological.

Paul says we are equal in Christ, but he does not call for abolishing gender in any way.

Paul outlines the interplay between marriage and relationship between Christ and the church.

Ephesians 5:21-33 interweaves this description of the roles of husband and wife in marriage with a mystical description of the relationship between Christ and the Church.

In so doing, Paul affirms what he has said elsewhere about Christ as the new Adam (1 Corinthians 15:20-45 and Romans 5:12-14). Implicitly, the Church becomes the new Eve.

The Church is Mother because God is Father. In other words, in relation to God, whatever our biological sex, we are all female.

God creates the universe from without is the Christian view of creation, not from within.

You do not have to agree.

As for other Christians, I can discuss this it with them.

Either way you cannot prove or disprove these claims.

The universe being created from without is also called theist worldview. You can look this up.

Creation from without may be theist but it does not imply maleness. 

You cannot prove or disprove your claims either.  Paul was merely a human being speaking from his worldview, from his time, place and culture.  All of which were patriarchal in the extreme. Quoting Paul proves nothing.  The use of the metpahor of marriage, of husband and wife is again just an artifact of Paul’s culture, time, and place.  Its a comforting, familiar image, but reveals nothing about the truth of God.  You can beleive what you want, but just becasue Paul says something does not make it true.  Its one man’s view and hsi view is very limited.  God is not limioted, God is without boundaries, without sex, outside of time and palce.

I would also like to see some historical documentation for your claims about Thomas More.

Thomas could draw a distinction between service to his country and cooperation in the wicked designs of his king. Finally, in 1529 supporters of Queen Catherine still had the upper hand in Parliament.

We all know Henry V111 was an ass, but I do not know why you think he worked for the church.

Lisa,

You brought up Paul, not me. You hold his views as subject to time and place, not me, because the scriptures say that Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

“Creation from without may be theist but it does not imply maleness.”

It does imply being created or impregnated from without like by a father, rather than being born from a mother.

It highlights a masculine attribute, when properly understood.

\\ All of
which were patriarchal in the extreme.\\

And you think that MATRIARCHY is intrinsically better?

Sexism exists among women—especially angry depressed ones in sensible shoes—the same as among men.

As it is written, “Hell hath no fury like a liberal scorned.”

I never said, God was limited, just that creation from without is an masculine attribute, just as being church is a feminine attribute, hence the term mother earth.

dixibehr,

You misread my comments.  My point is that God is neither male nor female.  To compare God’s creation to human procreation ( within or a without) does notexpress truth about God.

Savvy,

For centuries, all European monarchs were crowned by the Pope (until Napolean broke that tradition in the early 18th century).  That, European monarchs took their authority fas monarchs from the RCC. All European monarchs were responsible to the Pope re matters of religion. Early in his kingship, Henery was named Defender of the Faith by the Pope for Henry’s defense of the RCism against Luther and the Reformation.  Henry, Cardinal Woolsey and More worked hand in ahnd to suppress Luther’s ideas and the Reformation.  You can Google Thomas More and you will see that many historians record his work in the torture and murder of those who believed in the Reformation and in Luther’s ideas. More, Henry VIII and Cardinal Woolsey wer the agents of the RC Inquistion in England.

Savvy,

God creates as God creates.  It has nothing to with “creation from without” or with masculine.  The RCC is described as female—again that does not reflect any truth about God.  It just reflects a male power/privilege point of view.  Its a human thing, and expresses no truth about God or even the RCC.  its all metaphor and not literal truth.  The whole thing about expressing the God/pople relationship in terms of sex, procreation, amle/female is about the all-male hierarchy, about patriarchy and not about God.

Lisa,

You do not understand this theology. The church is seen in her relationship to Christ, her bridegroom.

“The whole thing about expressing the God/pople relationship in terms of sex, procreation, amle/female is about the all-male hierarchy, about patriarchy and not about God.”

Lisa, if Jesus is God, it makes complete sense. The rest is just your unproven views.

Savvy,

I do understand the theology.  I have a BA in RC theology.  The whole idea of church as female and God as male is a human contruct, a metaphor, not literal truth. That metaphor serves a male pwoer structure, is convenient for a male power structure that has no room for women. And yes, its a total “if” that Jesus is God.  Talk about something that is unproven!  There is no absolutely no proof that Jesus is God.  Yes, its a matter of faith.  But faith is not fact.  Its not even at all likely that Jesus is God.  Jesus was an excllent rabbi, a very nice man, who was able to convey the message of Torah in a compelling way.  That’s it.

Lisa,

Henry V111 did the same to the English Roman clergy. Historians also document Luther doing the same to those who did not share his views, and then Calvin the same after him.

Henry and Woosley did work hand in hand against Rome.

More parted ways with the two of them, after their schemes were uncovered.

The expert opinions carried no weight in Rome, so to get the pope’s attention, Henry, with a complicit Parliament, attacked the whole English clergy. For months Cromwell had been fomenting public opinion against the clergy with the tracts of Tyndale and other heretics.

Now Cromwell suggested to Henry that since the clergy were obedient to Rome they were only “half citizens of the realm.” Charged with praemunire, a kind of treason, the clergy were forced to pay Henry a sum of 100,000 pounds to purchase a pardon for the imagined offense and were forced to acknowledge Henry as the “protector and Supreme head of the Church in England.” Bishop John Fisher attempted to salvage the bitter moment by seeing that the words, “so far as the law of Christ allows” were added, but the end was obviously near.

In 1532 Henry made a personal visit to Parliament and influenced the lawmakers to pass an edict forbidding English clergy to make their annates or “first fruits” payments to Rome, an important source of income for the Holy See. On the heels of that edict came the Submission of the Clergy, in which the clergy lost all right of legislation except through the king. The Archbishop of Canterbury, William Warham, prepared a stirring rejection of this suppression of Church authority, but he failed to deliver it in Parliament, prompting Bishop Fisher to tell More that the “fort had been betrayed even by those who should have defended it.”

The Storm Breaks

The suppression of the clergy was the last straw for More. He told his king that he was “not equal to the work” and resigned his post. Keeping his opinion about the divorce to himself, save in private conversations with the king, More hoped to escape the gathering storm by retreating from public life to the quiet of his home in Chelsea. Even then it seemed possible: After More’s resignation, twice, and in the presence of Parliament, Henry praised More for his service as chancellor. But Henry’s handlers could not leave More alone.

A man with More’s profound understanding of the law and his reputation for honorable conduct could not be allowed to be silent. His was a silence heard throughout Europe, and it was silence that encouraged others to resist the king’s divorce and ever-expanding power.

Then Anne got pregnant and the storm broke with fury. Henry married her in secret. She bore a child, Elizabeth. Archbishop Cranmer declared Henry’s first marriage null. He had no power to do so, but on the day that he was made Archbishop of Canterbury he made a private oath not to submit to the authority of the pope. Anne was crowned queen. Pope Clement finally condemned the divorce.

More had refused to attend the wedding. But the greater matter was More’s refusal to swear to the Act of Succession which declared Catherine’s daughter, Mary, a !@#$% and the issue of Henry and Anne heirs to the throne. More did not object to Parliament ruling on the succession of the throne, but he refused to take the oath because the Act rejected papal authority. In February 1534, Henry requested More’s indictment on charges of treason. The House of Lords refused three times. He was interrogated repeatedly by Cromwell, Cranmer, and the new chancellor, Lord Audley, who were unsuccessful in their attempts to bribe him, ensnare him, and link him with known traitors. Henry then cut off More’s salary and his family was thrust into poverty. On April 13, 1534, More was taken to Lambeth Castle and, in the company of other nobles and clerics, asked to swear to the Act of Succession. He refused. Having been convicted of no crime and without any legal grounds for arrest, he was confined to the Tower of London.

His trial was held on July 1, 1535. He was convicted on the basis of the perjured testimony of Richard Rich. “In good faith, Master Rich,” More said, “I am sorrier for your perjury than for my own peril.”

Death and Destruction

On July 6, 1535, St. Thomas More was martyred for his defense of the sanctity of Christian marriage and his defense of the authority of the Vicar of Christ. He was beatified by Leo XIII in 1886 and canonized on the fourth centenary of his death by Pius XI.

In the spring of 1536, less than a year after More’s death, Queen Catherine was dead, the divorce affair over, and Anne Boleyn was not far from the scaffold herself, though only Henry knew it.

Thus it was that that Henry VIII brought sorrow to merry old England.

The brutal suppression of the monasteries would soon follow. More than one thousand monasteries and convents were destroyed and monks and nuns turned out into the street to find, in Cromwell’s words, “real work.” In destroying them, Henry introduced the modern welfare state. Once, the poor were cared for in dignity and charity by men and women religious. Now they were dependent on the state. Anyone with a passing familiarity with public housing projects can appreciate this bitter fruit of the Protestant rebellion in England.

Lisa,

Your theories are yours alone, Nobody says there is no room for women. And anybody interested in power, men or women does not understand the concept of a vocation.  The bride/bridegroom metaphor helps us understand the relationship between Christ and the church.

You cannot disprove that Jesus is not God either.

In the Biblical worldview, blood is the substance of Being, not some stage of fetal development. The implications of this are enormous!

God is male priest in Genesis and women have never been priests. The priesthood speaks of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our ruler-priest. God the Father and God the son are the Creator’s chosen terms for self-revelation.

The whole of the Bible rests on the witness of Abraham’s ruler-priest ancestors who are named in Genesis. Jesus Christ is their direct descendant.

Pray for Lisa…and be understanding of her.

She is defending the dogmas of her religion. Why shouldn’t she? We certainly do the same.

It is admittedly odd, how profoundly she’s misunderstood Vatican II, by willfully interpreting it in exactly the way the council did not wish it interpreted: As a breach, rather than (as is always required in the Catholic faith) according the Hermeneutic of Continuity.

But we can perhaps attribute that to her instructors in pursuing her degree. Who here has not seen the devastation wrought, even amongst Catholics, by the alternative Magisterium of the tenured? Why should a non-Catholic like Lisa not be even more persuaded by those who hijacked the post-conciliar decades? Do they not say that the first century after a council generally belongs to the devil? Since we are already in the process of recovering from the post-conciliar hangover, we should be glad that the devil’s had only half that much time, this time around!

Savvy,

Christainity took the Jewsih concept and definition of messiah and changed it.  The idea of messiah is that the messiah will usher in a messianic age and that will be as obvious as, say the sunrise.  No act of faith required.  When it became clear that Jesus was not the messiah (or God) Christianity said, “Oh, he gets a another chance to come again at some other time uncertain and he will say he is God in the meantime.” 

Christainity is a distortion of Jesus’ Judaism.  So no, he is not God.

Lisa,

People were looking for a political Messiah, who they did not find in Jesus. Jesus did not promise a short term victory. Christianity holds that the first coming he came as redeemer and saviour of the world. In the second, he will come as righteous judge.

Let’s just agree to disagree on this one.

Savvy,

No people were not just looking for a political messiah.  Thei is a distortion that Christianity teaches.  People were looking or a messiah to usher in a messianic age of peace, etc.  Not just a messiah to voerhtrow Rome.  The concept of messiah in Judaims long pre-dated the Roman Empire.

An Obama victory would also have a chilling effect on infants.  As an Illinois state senator, Barack Obama voted 4 times against Illinois’ Born Alive Infant Protection act.

Lisa,

That is a baseless assessment of the origins of Messianic expectation. In fact, Messianic expectation preceded the Jews by at least 2 thousand years. It was the expectation of Abraham’s Horite (Horim) ancestors that a woman of their ruler-priest caste would miraculously conceive the “Seed” of God who would crush the serpent’s head (Gen. 3:15). Jesus claimed to be the fulfillment of that first Biblical prophecy. He explained to his disciples concerning his death and resurrection that “unless a grain/seed fall into the ground and die…” it cannot bring forth life (John 12:24) Jesus is the direct descendant of Abraham’s Horite ancestors.

R.C.

You are right. Besides, Lisa is not the first person to predict our destruction and she won’t be the last.

In the Middle Ages, there was a bishop who was a friend with a Jewish merchant. They spoke for years about faith and the bishop believed that the merchant might eventually convert. Then, one day, the merchant told the bishop that he was heading for Rome. The bishop, knowing the debauchery present in Rome at the moment, begged him not to go: if the merchant saw how Rome was run, he might never convert, but the merchant went anyway.

A few months later, the merchant returned to his home. When the merchant and the bishop saw each other, the merchant quickly exclaimed, “I became Catholic!” The bishop, taken aback, said, “but… all of that corruption in Rome.”

The merchant replied, “Look, I am no expert on Christianity, but I do know business, and any organization like that which can stay around for a thousand years must have something going for it.”

I love that story! The strength of Catholicism is its adherence to Scripture and Holy Tradition; both point to the Holy Trinity at work in the world from the beginning. Another strength is the high standard of scholarship among Catholic theologians and educators. Yet another is the authority of bishops.  I am not Roman Catholic, but I can appreciate these and other remarkable qualities.

Alice,

As an anthropologist, you know that the so-called new ideas being sold to us are a reversion back to ancient Greece.  And they call us backward.

I am posting these correct Catholic teachings on conscience for Lisa and others who were not given accurate information on the Council.

http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/conscience.htm

Savvy,

Backwards isn’t a bad direction. It is the only way to repent.

There is indeed a push toward paganism or pagan values, but Wisdom exposes lies in every generation that seeks her.

Alice,

Yes, wisdom is key. I am tired of empty slogans by progressives that sound good, but have no concrete meaning. In our relative age, different things are supposed to mean different things to people, according to them, but they fail to reason out why their views should hold more weight than others.

As Chesterton said, “I am tired of arguing with people who prefer Friday to Thursday, just because it’s Friday.”

Savvy,

Your story about the Jewish merchant converting is just silly.  Judaism has been around for more than 4,000 yrs.  It is more than 2x as old as Christianity. One of the many many great strengths of Judaism is its longevity.  God’s covenant with Jews is unbroken and ongoing.  Good try with the Jewish merchant story, but its really just silly as way to tout Christianity.  That dog just won’t hunt,s as the saying goes.

Lisa,

Just as you think God’s covenant with the Jews is unbroken and ongoing. We think Christ’s promise to the church is unbroken and ongoing.

Starzec you wrote:

“Ironic that the same conservatives that populate these blogs hide behind free speech and think that is a wonderful freedom are the same people who clamor about having freedom of religion but are perfectly willing to prevent a free American person from having their own freedom of religion.”

Nobody is preventing anybody else from having their own freedom of religion. The issue is the attack on Catholic institutions, by forcing them to do things that violate their beliefs. Nobody is forcing anybody to work for a Catholic institution either.

R.C,

It’s just strange what left wing propaganda can do to a person. The church’s beautiful teachings on human sexuality changed my life for the better and those of the people I know. The failure to teach and live these teachings is what caused the crisis with the sex abuse in the church, not the other way around.

In a battle of wits where the participants either speak the truth but without love or reject both, nobody wins. The devil is smarter than all of you put together, but a fat lot of good it does him in Hell. Pray for each other and for our country. Pray for our bishops and priests. If the words we speak and write to each other don’t come from God, they will only do harm.
May God help us all.

Sarah,

Some people are on a mission to demonize all priest and bishops, because of the actions of a few. The church has apologized multiple types, millions have been paid out in compensation, the church has put a vigorous child protection system in place.  Abuse is a hundred times more in public schools, and so is financial mismanagement on Wall street, but I doubt Lisa is going to oppose them because of it.

What some want is for the church to bow to their liberal agendas.

The communists are winning because of Godless, uneducated, lazy, greedy fools.

Savvy,

Thee issue with RCC’s pedophile priest problem is not that the bishops have not apologized or have not rightfully paid out compensation or did not sign the Dallas charter.  The problem is that the RCC has not learned from thses things.  Note that Bsihop finn in KC deliberately and totally ignored the Dalls charter, deliberately and knowingly failed to report Fr. Ratigan’s possession and creation of child pronography.  Just very recently Finn became a convicted criminal for those acts.  Note that the problems in the Philly archdiocese continue.  Note that the Green Bay dioces will soon be put on trial for its deliberate cover up for a known pedophile priest (Feeney is his name, I think).  Theother issue with the RCC is that the pedophile priest problem is not only ongoings, its global—think Ireland, Germany, Poland, Austria, Belgium, etc.  The main problem is that the Vatican is not taking action to stem this problem. m It snot a matter of demonizing—its amtter of facing the facts about the RCC’s ongoing, global pedophile priest problems and the bishops who are still willing to cover up for and lie for pedophiles and being willing to place children in danger from known pedophiles.

Houlding the RCC accountable for prtoetcing children from pedophiles is hardley a “liberal agenda”.  Its a huamn agenda.  The “correct conservative” agenda is what?  To allow the bishops to continue to lie and cover for pedophiles, to allow the bishops to continue to commit criminal acts by shielding pedophiles, to deny the problem???

And Savvy,  I agree that Wall Street is a mess and mismanaged the financial health of our nation. If you are unahppy about the financial mismanagement on Wall Street, I hope you joined the majority of RC and voted for President Obama.  Because it was duing the 8 yrs of the George W. Bush administration that WAll Street was allowed to destroy our economy and it was Romney who wnated to go bakc to the smae failed Bush policies that permitted Wall Street to destroy our economy.

John Sparti,

If you think the communists are winning, you must be living in Cuba or China.

Lisa,

The abuse cases you bring up are older ones. This is no longer the case, is what I am trying to say.  Yes, the trials will still continue, but that does not change the fact that the entrance into the priesthood has now become the toughest in history and everybody involved in ministry with minors is subject to vigorous criminal and other record checking.

You might want to read this recent article in Boston magazine on this.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/articles/2012/10/archdiocese-catholic-church-rebuild-after-scandal/

Savvy,

The problems with Fr. Sean Ratigan that involved Bishop Finn, happened in 2010 0r 2011—after the bishops signed the Dallas charter.  Finn deliberately ignored the charter and deliberately ignored the process set in place in his diocese for cases of suspected abuse In Philly, even after the cardinal signed the Dalls charter, he did not get rid of problem priests until the DA and the Grand Jury came down hard.  The Cardinal too ignored the charter.  In Green Bay, the bishop ignored the Dallas charter.  Thse guys sign nice sounding documents and ignore them until they are forced into action by the criminal justice system, by the media, by victims seeking compensation.  Why do the bishops ignor their own charter???  Hubris and failure to understand that they are accountable to the people they serve and to the larger society in which they function.  These guys just don’t learn.  Thye can sign a million Dalls charter and they still will not learn.

Lisa,

You do have your facts right about this case.

Bishop Finn was not found guilty of a felony: he was found guilty of one misdemeanor, and innocent of another.

The case did not involve child sexual abuse—no child was ever abused, or touched, by Ratigan.

Nor did Finn’s guilt involve child pornography. Here’s what happened.

In December 2010, a computer technician found crotch-shot pictures of children, fully clothed, on Ratigan’s computer; there was one that showed a girl’s genitals exposed. The next day Ratigan attempted suicide.

Msgr. Robert Murphy, the Vicar General, without seeing the photos, contacted a police officer about this matter. The officer said a single photo of a non-sexual nature would not constitute pornography; a diocesan attorney concurred.

Finn then asked a psychiatrist to evaluate Ratigan and was told the priest was not a risk to children (he was diagnosed with depression). Finn then placed restrictions on Ratigan, which he broke. After the restrictions were violated, Ratigan’s computer was examined and more disturbing photos were found. Murphy then called the cops (Finn was out of town) and a week later Ratigan was arrested. In September, Finn was found guilty of one misdemeanor of failing to report suspected child sexual abuse.

So the cops were contacted on this issue. Finn was basically taking cues from them at first.

Savvy,

I never said that Finn was convicted of a felony. Yes he was convicted of a misdemenaor—but he is tsill a convicted criminal. He deliberately and knowingly failed to report Ratigan, knowing that he had a duty to report Ratigan to the polcie.  And yes, the case re Ratigan does involve child pornography.  Ratigan is facing federal criminal possession of child pornography charges as we speak.  So what if Ratigan did not touch a child himself?  Possession of child pornography is vile, is a federal crime, is an act of violence against children. People like Ratigan create a “market” for others to force children into sexual acts, act that damage children physcially, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.  Finn knew that Ratigan possessed child pornography & told the court that he wanted to protect Ratigan as a priest.  I am glad Finn was convicted for his criminal acts, I am only sorry he did not go to jail.  That would have made Finn and other bishops wake up totheir duty to children.  And I am sorry you feel you have to defend Finn and Ratigan.  Pitiful.

Lisa,

I am glad he was found guilty too. I was just responding you your allegation that he did nothing to report it. I was not defending abuse.

Lisa, the abuse and cover-ups in Orthodox Jewish communities has not received the justice the cases deserve. Perhaps you should focus on them, instead of singling out Catholics.

John,

It’s too early to tell. I am not American, so I have no dog in this fight, but the Republicans lost because they were just being stupid. They need better PR.

John,

The GOP had great PR, what they lacked was a great candidate.  Romney had no core values, no real message.  He got caught with disparging 47% of the American people.  He got caught in many many lies.  Romney is not aTea Party extrmeist, but he had to pretend be, he had to pander to the lowest denominator of the gOP base.  That is why he lost to the better candidate.

Savvy,

Finn failed in his statutory duty to report Ratifan to the police.  Finn knew in Dec 2010 that Ratigan possessed child pornography.  Finn did not go tot he police until April or May 2011 witht ha information.  That is why Finn is a convicted criminal today.

This is a good article, on why culture wars need a different approach.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/matthew-warner/heres-the-lesson-from-the-election-folks

Actually, first they came for the Muslims, like the Mosque that was burned to the ground in Joplin MO last month.  Muslim American citizens and their teenage sons can be labeled enemy combatants for preaching and assassinated miles from any battlefield.  Their charities are labeled fronts for terrorist organizations.  Then there’s torture and removing habeas corpus, the right to an attorney or to confront your accusers (national security, secret evidence, would hurt the war on terror you know).  National security letters.  Warrantless wiretaps.  Infiltrating the Mosques like on the east coast (what if the person ahead of you receiving the body and blood of our Lord was a paid FBI informer?).

And Catholics have been cheering all this since the PATRIOT ACT - another bill we had to pass to find out what was in it.

So Obama will start treating Catholics the way Catholics have approved of the Government treating Muslims for the last decade.  I can see the fear and panic but not any injustice.  There is no justice.  It has been dismantled - as even the pagans realize, “This is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause”.  When there is no rule of law, but some men oppressing others and we have thrown the bill of rights in the shredder - the other 95% that doesn’t include the HHS mandate - Catholics will very quickly be the target.

tz, mahometans burn down Churches in the Middle East all the time. Christian children are kidnapped, forced to convert to mahometanism, and raped (regardless of sex) all the time. In Syria, one Christian child was beheaded, his body dismembered and roasted, and returned to his family on a bed of rice. Fr. Fadi Haddad, Orthodox priest in Syria, was murdered by rebels. And the last Christian in Homs was recently murdered.

Although Catholicism has reformed itself in the past and is the world’s largest Christian church, the corruption question can’t be dismissed by platitudes, especially when Catholicism is looked at sociologically.
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In fact, today’s scandals might be of less concern than what can be called “structural deficits.” The routine dissent from church teachings by church-going laity – use of contraception, divorce and remarriage outside the church, unwed couples living together, etc. – represents the loss of a trusting base. Dwindling church membership, the graying of the remaining faithful, the closing of schools and hospitals, diocesan bankruptcies, a shrinking number of clergy, a persistent refusal to include married men in the ranks of the clergy—these are realities that spell institutional doom, pushing believers to separate devotion to Jesus from faith in the church. In purely human terms, the Catholic Church seems condemned to inevitable decline.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/catholic-america/post/is-the-church-corrupt/2012/04/23/gIQA9nYkcT_blog.html

fourmoreyearsofobama,

The article also forgot to add that vocations are on the rise now after years of being in decline, in the West. See the CARA study.

“One thing about religious vocations is for certain: The past decade has seen a resurgence of interest in religious life.

“Overall, there’s definitely been an increase in inquiries about religious life over the last eight years,” said Patrice Tuohy, executive editor of the Vision vocation guide, a publication of the National Religious Vocation Conference. “The Internet has helped to increase awareness and inquiries.”

Tuohy said that they receive an average of 250,000 unique visitors to their website annually. She estimated that 30,000 of those are seriously considering a religious vocation. And 6,000 annually fill out the website’s “Vocation Match” tool. The majority of those are under the age of 30.

“There are many who continue to be attracted to religious life,” said Tuohy. “There are three things we know, based on the 2009 CARA/NRVC study on religious vocations, about those entering religious life today: We know that they are very interested in communal living, prayer and Catholic identity.”

It also forgot to add that younger Catholics who go to church lean Orthodox and are not interested in what the hippies are selling, which means the only churches/orders growing are Orthodox.

http://www.vocationnetwork.org/blog/spiritcitings_blog/2012/10/vocations_are_trending

Hence, the ones declining are un-orthodox groups filled with older people.

Traditional Catholicism Is Winning

“This aging generation of progressives continues to lobby church leaders to change Catholic teachings on reproductive rights, same-sex marriage and women’s ordination. But it is being replaced by younger men and women who are attracted to the church because of the very timelessness of its teachings.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303772904577335290865863450.html

The same thing seems to be going on in the Church of England, where younger Evangelicals are not buying what the older liberals are selling.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100184908/a-day-of-judgment-for-liberal-bishops/

But, since the media is still boomer property for the most part, I doubt they want the world to know this.

Data presented by the congregation’s undersecretary, the Rev. Angelo Vincenzo Zani, show that priestly vocations over the last 10 years fell sharply in Europe. They remained stable in North and South America and rose significantly in Asia and Africa, though still not enough to offset the rapid growth in Catholics’ numbers worldwide.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/vatican-blames-lack-of-priests-on-secularism-abuse-parents/2012/06/25/gJQAooBP2V_story.html
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html

Both challenges and opportunities. The church thinks in centuries, not what will just work right now.

Chesterton got this right.

“Nine out of ten of what we call new ideas are simply old mistakes. The Catholic Church has for one of her chief duties that of preventing people from making those old mistakes; from making them over and over again forever, as people always do if they are left to themselves. “

http://www.chesterton.org/discover-chesterton/selected-works/the-theologian/why-i-am-a-catholic/

JOHN ZMIRAK,

Both sides have this wrong.  A lot of the people who voted for Obama are very pro-life. The mandate will be struck down in the courts.  It’s already losing.  The Republicans spent all the time with anti-Obama conspiracy theories etc, instead of reaching out to blacks and hispanics who are mostly pro-life.

Politicians are not going to win culture wars. This has to start at home. Obama went grassroots with community organizers. Social conservatives should learn from things like 40 days for life that has changed more hearts and minds than any politician. Stick to the grassroots, where the people are. Do not depend on elected officials to do your job for you.

“The church thinks in centuries, not what will just work right now.”
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Then what is everyone all upset about. None of us will be alive in a century.

I meant the church will still be around after the sexual dictatorship collapses.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20121109/OPINION/311090028/Community-View-Biblical-people-deserve-free-speech-rights-too?nclick_check=1

@savvy:  [“A lot of the people who voted for Obama are very pro-life.”]  That’s an amazing statement, savvy.  If true, how could they possibly vote for a ticket (including Catholic Biden) who support abortion on demand and Obama who also supports Partial-Birth abortion?  They captured 49% of the Catholic vote.  That’s astounding !  Of course, there are Catholics who attend church regularly on Sunday and then there are Catholics who only “identify” themselves as Catholic and rarely (if ever) go to church.  Catholics are not a monolithic group any longer and sadly, many Catholics by and large do not live by biblical standards but societal standards.  Catholic clergy rarely even defend the Bible any longer but only point to “tradition.”  The church is very sick while the clergy has yet to recognize any serious illness in themselves.

Casting Crowns,

Really depends on what church you go to and who your pastor is.  48% of the Catholic vote went to Romney too. So it’s a small margin.

The ones who voted for Obama reason that the Republicans have not done anything to stop abortion either.

We are at the precipice of our greatest fears coming to fruition. The culmination of decades of secrets, lies, deception, fraud & abuse. Absolute criminals have cleverly disguised themselves as politicians. These political appointments who politically apoint their own comrades have very deceptively, beaten us down as a nation, morally, spiritually and financially. They have ruthlessly robbed us into fraudulently induced submission. There has been a coup de tat of the U.S. TREASURY and the greater part of our wealth has been stolen and what is left…...they are holding the nation hostage with. These criminals are terrorizing us and running a crime syndicate with our stolen, hijacked wealth at home and around the world. The latest modus operandi is the so called looming fiscal cliff that is absolute criminal fraud, a big fat lie and criminal extortion by these crooks. Simpson Bowles is fascism. Make no mistake, these self appointed Roman emporers want the people to believe they own you and everything you worked for and already paid for up front, at the origination. After these criminals via Wall Street committed the biggest robbery in history and transferred trillions of our wealth from the treasury to their overseas bank accounts via the patriot act…..and the traitor politicians knew it…..and continued the robbery, with TBTF and fraudclosures….and the robbery continues up to this day. Now they fully intend to anihalate us with the remaining fraudulently induced debt. Those who voted for Obama are in for the wake up call that millions of American small business owners got in 2008…..credit is not wealth…..you can’t run a business, or a household without it and they know it. The entire country is being run on insolvent credit that Wall Street created by counterfeiting, fraud & forgery of our signatures, they created ax QUADRILLION dollars in unsustainable debt for America & make no mistake,  they fully intend to destroy US with it. The politicians are all in on this foreign federal takeover of America from the top down. I wouldn’t send them ten more cents….but that is impossible because they have turned all of our inalienable rights into a fraudulently induced tax…...the only alternative…...stop paying the mortgages & the property taxes & sue the FED…because the robbed US of quintillions of our wealth & property & now they are coming for ALL of our freedom & independence ......the Creators plan for mankind.

I would just like to add .......I am not exaggerating in the least about the amount of money these self appointed rulers have stolen from US, and here is why…....CNBC reported well over a year ago that, in the year 1999, the year the Clinton Administration repealled Glass Steagall, and the year thar Congress weakened the Commodities and Exchange Act, Wall Street made $60 trillion dollars selling derivatives. That is just derivatives ....investments in credit they sold to the American people ........after they borrowed the money from WE THE PEOPLE, the FED, did not pay back their Original Loan they borrowed from US…via their banks….as the law requires before conversion…...no….the banks, via Wall Street, oversold investments in the credit they sold the American people, to the tune of a QUADRILLION dollars+........ Basically these crooks committed massive criminal fraud in our names, with copies of our signatures ....they electronically forged our signatures & counterfeited the value of stocks & bonds…the credit they sold WE THE PEOPLE were not mortgages at all…..NO…...they converted all of the credit….. into 10 year bonds…& uncertificated (worthless) stock. Then the day came, they knew would come…..the day the stocks were worth more than the dollar…...the banks & their investors around the globe…..dumped their worthless stock…...that is how they manufactured &  INSIDER TRADED & crashed the markets in 2008…...the majority stockholders, bondholders & shareholders did not take a hit…....at all because the were overinsured with AIG CREDIT DEFAULT SWAP INSURANCE to the tune of $600 TRILLION DOLLARS…....BACKED BY $12 TRILLION IN U.S REAL ESTATE…THAT WE THE PEOPLE PAID FOR…..plus the infinite TBTF BAILOUTS ....QE to infinity…...plus fraudclosures .....those U.S. property values have now plummeted to $8 trillion dollars…...these crooks have fraudclosed on 20 million Americans to date…....including active duty service members & the elderly and they have destroyed countless marriages & destroyed countless lives…..blaming deadbeat homeowners for what the investors, shareholders & bondholders manufactured…......with our forged & signatures & counterfeited uncertificated securities….this was all done for free…..courtesy of WE THE PEOPLE who are….THE MAKERS OF ALL OF THE NOTES…...the big wheeler dealers are now buying back all of the soured debt they created by committing more fraud forgery & treason…aka…..REPURCHASING…...in joyful hope of destroying the people by fraudulently inducing our bankruptcy by the traitor politicians forcing US to pay for the sins of these crooks…...they will crash the markets again…...and declare US broke when they broke US…...or by some other fraudulent inducement .....they will completely seize the issue of our currency….property….military…..police…...utility companies…our entire country….by committing another massive fraud…..they will tell US…..they own not just everything but they own US…...and they never paid for anything at all…....this was all done courtesy of….....THE U.S. TAXPAYER’S .....who are….WE THE PEOPLE…..this is what these Plutocrats, Oligarchs & their political minions & cohorts are planning for all of US…..the complete theft of our wealth, livelihoods,  freedom, independence and our country. They are coming for our souls with the microchip in Obamacare…...I swear and attest this is all true so help me God…....take your money out America….wherever you can and boycott the Gov Corp…...wherever possible. They mean to do we the people permanent harm…..with their massive, unsustainable debt fraud…...they wish to destroy US…....and the issuance of cash…..

RE: The Commodities & Exchanges Act was transformed into the Commodities Futures & Modernization Act of 2000. Google it.

Revelations…....the only way the Federal foreign power can overtake the U.S. CONSTITUTION is by an act of war on us creating martial law or quasi in rem….....AKA .....BANKRUPTCY…..That is why foreign powers are trying to bankrupt the people and/or cause civil discourse…Congress is abusing its power via Obama & the execeutive branch via 14th amendment ...and the State legislature….time to invoke our Constitutional rights and walk away fro. fraudulently induced….contracts which are in their essence fraud….criminal lawlessness….. therefore .....all power is vested in the people not the State or Federal Govts… and the judiciary must uphold our rights if invoked…..it is legal 9….......v 11 & 14..via invoking our Constitutional rights to due process…...by the 4th & the 5th…...

Invoking our Constitutional rights is more powerful than voting…....and only the right of Natural born U.S. citizens….

There is, in reality,  no labor for value in the U.S…..only labor for gold or silver….....their contracts are a fraud as they have no foundational basis in a Constitutional Government with respect to the doctrine of separation of powers….because labor for value is a theory with no basis in law. We were duped…..

.........WAKE UP AMERICA…...

These are the false Gods the fraudsters made for themselves…...fiat money…....so the greedy could counterfeit their power…and worship it…..it is all a giant fraud under U.S. Constitutional Government….....that supports the power of the people to be superior….PEOPLE POWER…

If you have never lived under a Communist Government you may not recognize the signs that the traitor plliticians have been sneaking it in for decades…..& hoping WE THE PEOPLE would never notice…....that is the hope of the wicked…..to install complete communism….by deception….these politicians, their minions & cohorts are using fascism ....... to defraud WE THE PEOPLE & overthrow our Constitution….that is what 9/11 meant…....the 11th amendment -v - the 9th amendment - v - the 14th & 16th amendments ...... is the means that the politicians in CONGRESS & THE SENATE…..via the State & U.S. GOVT legislators and are using the Executive Branch to abuse their power…..this is the main method they are using to fraudulently inducing tyranny & oppression upon the people…..

...........AKA….....the assassins creed

God will refine the value of gold as silver…..both will be of equal value..

God will shut them up & shut them down through his truth & the righteousness of the people….&...make them right & upright…..

The first to go will be the wicked….

Gods algorithm will cast out the wicked…..

May Gods blessings have mercy on all…..

.......that through our faith these days will be shortened by gods grace.

Only Almighty God and his congregation are TBTF….

Google this link .... http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/black.htm

President Obama has stated publicly that he believes in God….  If I could ask the President just one question it would be .........Would Jesus have bailed out and blocked criminal prosecutions of Wall Street?

This Thanksgiving, I would like to give thanks for a few things, my great Catholic upbringing,  my Grandmother who never stopped instilling the Catholic faith in me, and the guidance of the Blessed Mother who always gives me strength. Thank You and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone….!

It was 49 years ago today that J.F.K was assassinated in front of the world. John McCain referred to that day as
“the intervention (corrects himself) tragedy - in Dallas.”  Everyone may want to make sure they digest their turkey dinner before they go to this link about The Black Pope & 9/11…..warning…....this article may cause some Americans to want to skip the black Friday anarchy and debauchery…..I pray we wake up as one nation under God and stop funding these tyrants & oppressors who are stealing our own wealth and using it to destroy US…..
http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/blackpope.html

Beware of imposter foreigner’s offering help. Disguised as banks, attorney’s and politicians. The media is also in on the big coverup for the biggest ponzi scheme swindle & heist of our wealth and hijacking of our Treasury in U.S. History.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated several Christian groups as hate groups, including American Family Association, Family Research Council, Abiding Truth Ministries, American Vision, Chalcedon Foundation, Dove World Outreach Center and Traditional Values Coalition….
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/intrelhate1.htm