What a wonderful event! This is a perfect time for Catholics worldwide to get this good news! Everyone should be using the Baltimore Catechism to teach the Catholic faith to their children. So many children today are not being taught their faith in the fulness that it was meant to be taught. So many children do not know the richness of their faith. The Baltimore Catechism will help all people, young and old, to know, understand and appreciate the inheretance of their Catholic faith. May the Mother of God keep us under Her mantle today and always!

To Mary Burton:

Everyone should be using the Bible, the inspired Word of God, to teach the Christian faith to their children.  Bishop Ricken would be wise to ensure the trusting Catholics in his diocese are taught Scripture truths in full, and in context.

When Roman Catholics in his diocese can, in their own words:

1- Teach their children about the nature and function of each Member of the Holy Trinity, and how the Holy Spirit works in their lives,

2- Teach them the meaning of “Justification”, “Sanctification”,
“Glorification”, and IN THEIR OWN WORDS, explain to their children what St. Paul meant when he wrote his letter to the Romans, THEN this bishop can spend lots of time working on apparition efforts such as this one.

Not before.  Most certainly, not now.  The Great Commission should be his ONLY priority.

To Cradle Catholic:
True, we should be studying and contemplating the Bible and the Catechism, which is a condensation of the most important tenets of the Catholic faith. In doing so, we will realize the value of humility and working WITH the Holy Spirit. It is easy to fall into the trap of worshipping our own holiness and wisdom. Beware of satan’s trap. Allow the Bishop to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

God bless Bishop Ricken.  I am sure the Blessed Mother is very proud of him.  This is wonderful news.

I have never heard of this apparition or of Champion Wisconsin, but I will be going there as soon as I am able. I pray often in our Blessed Mother’s Schoenstatt Shrine in Milwaukee, but one can never get enough of our dear Mother. She is the surest and fastest way into the heart of her Son. Thank you Bishop Ricken. Ann

This is wonderful news and very important for today so we can teach the children the Truths of the Faith as we used to.  1859, the year of the apparitions, is the year the wonderful Penny Catechism was first published in England, my country.  Teach the Catechism, watch EWTN and talk to your children about our Glorius Faith.

To Gail Ramplen, you wrote:

“Allow the Bishop to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.”

Gail, as a group, bishops have told us pew people that they depended on the advice of Catholic psychologists, when they placed known pedophiles back into parish work, moving them from church to church, believing they could be cured.

I don’t see the Holy Spirit in that decision.  Were they following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, when they did that?

If not, how can they know it is the Holy Spirit in this apparition work?  One has to read Scripture, and be immersed in it, to RECOGNIZE the Holy Spirit.

The miracle at Cana was given us as an eternal sign to approach Jesus through His Mother, so says Jesus in His Messages ‘True Life in God’ (Google it). Nevertheless, when we remove the barriers of pride and approach Him, humbly seeking Him, He will reveal Himself to us little by little to the full capacity of our souls. He is ever so lovable and ever so approachable and we offend and grieve Him when we brush Him aside. I will pray for you; please pray for me.

Gail Ramplen-

The miracle at Cana was most certainly NOT an instruction for us to approach Jesus through His mother.  If that were true, why did Jesus say, when the apostles told Jesus His mother and His brothers wanted to speak to HIM, “Who is my mother?  Who are my brothers?  They are those that hear and obey the word of God.” (that’s from memory, and a paraphrase, but you get the picture - try Google it, and you’ll find the verse).

Another verse to Google is “We have but ONE Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus” and He is sympathetic to our needs, because He experienced what we experience.

NOWHERE and I mean nowhere, does Jesus instruct His followers to go through Mary.  If He wanted that, He’d have given John (a young teen at the Crucifixion) into the care of Mary, and not the reverse.

I will pray that the Holy Spirit will draw you to His Word, in the Bible, where God reveals Himself to us. It was through the Hebrew Scriptures (our Old Testament) that Mary was able to recognize God, because she had been so well taught, and she had it memorized.

I disagree that it is the Gospel that the youth are hungering for. The Gospel is already being proclaimed - the problem is the environment in which it is proclaimed. What youth, and many others, are hungering for, is the Traditional Mass and traditional dogma which were buried in the avalanche of false teachings that followed Vatican II: false ecumenism, false religious liberty, false collegiality, liberation theology, etc…and a false liturgy to go with it, designed by a Freemason and 6 Protestant advisers to be inoffensive to Protestants! What could possibly be more destructive to the Church, to the faith, and to the Catholic identity?

Dear Cradle Catholic, you don’t see the Holy Spirit in that decision. What about in the decision on the apparitions? If one is unworthy of credibility on the basis of even one bad decision, then one can discount everything anybody says, ever.

Our Lady said at this apparition: teach children the Catechism.  Free catechetical talks can be downloaded here:- http://www.proecclesia.com/page_free talks.htm

To Cradle Catholic
I assure you that the Holy Spirit did not prompt the bishops to place known pedophiles back into parish work, but Satan did.  You fail to realize that Satan has entered the Church in many forms.  This approval has nothing to do with the pedophile scandal.  This apparition has to do with the bishops and Catholic religious educators failing to stay true to the Magisterium.  We as US Catholics have failed to stay true to the teachings of the Magisterium and to John Paul II’s request to evangelize the world.  The Baltimore Catechism is true to the Bible Scriptures and Catholic dogma much more so than Living Waters and many of the watered down Christian literature that has been used over the last 20 years and I know this as a Catholic religious educator who has had to fight to teach the true Catholic faith given to us by Jesus often by using supplemental material from before Vatican II.

Awesome, awesome, awesome.  Never heard of it before, but now I know.  Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee!  Thank you, Lord, for the Blessed Virgin and her visit to Wisconsin.  Praise the Lord for his goodness and for his kindness in sharing his Mother with us.

Stefani:  You wrote, “I know this as a Catholic religious educator who has had to fight to teach the true Catholic faith given to us by Jesus often by using supplemental material from before Vatican II.”

So are you saying Vatican II was NOT Holy Spirit inspired?  Are you saying MOST of the bishops during that time were NOT led by the Holy Spirit?

Gail Ramplen wrote: “If one is unworthy of credibility on the basis of even one bad decision, then one can discount everything anybody says, ever.”

Actually, I agree 100% with that.  And if Stefani is questioning the wisdom of MOST or all of the decisons made by bishops at Vatican II, indicating it was NOT led by the Holy Spirit, so much so she had to “fight” to use teachings PRIOR to Vatican II, then that is precisely why I do QUESTION EVERYTHING that comes down the pike from the Vatican.

This is why the Bible is the Gold Standard of Measure, and regarding the Holy Spirit being behind this bishop’s decision to declare this apparition valid or worthy of merit, I do not agree with him.

When I look at ALL the apparitions where Mary has supposedly appeared to Catholics, like Guadalupe, her message includes points like she wanted a church built to HONOR HER.  That is NOT from God, based on what Scripture says.  In those apparitions, Mary was NOT just “pointing to Jesus”.

The devil is in the details and it will behoove my fellow Catholics to question bishops that may not be led by the HOLY Spirit.  It must be the HOLY Spirit that leads us.

On the earlier comment about Jesus giving Mary ino the care of John: Jesus also—in the preceding verse in the Bible—did give John into the care of Mary (John 19:26). And as for the miracle at Cana in the same comment, Jesus certainly doesn’t seem ready to perform any miracle until his mother’s intercession. No reason to recount the Virgin Mary’s intercession otherwise.

Joseph-  You wrote Jesus gave John into the care of Mary.  What is the specific wording of the text you are using?  I always thought Jesus was placing Mary into JOHN’S care.  But you’re saying Mary was supposed to take care of John after Jesus’ crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension?

About Jesus’ first miracle at Cana, you are saying that Jesus needed Mary’s permission to begin His ministry?  Did you come to that conclusion based on just this verse alone?

Three interesting points I came across in the Messages of the Lord to Debra in Australia and to Vassula (written down for our benefit) are the following (I would have to do a bit of research to cite the exact words, chapter and verse) but they struck me between the eyes when I read them: 1) He said “It is not a sin to receive Me in the hand - what is important is to receive Me with a pure heart.”  2) The other one was in a reference to the Garabandal apparitions - if I remember correctly, it was Our Lady who said: “The confusion over Garabandal was given as a sign of the confusion in the Church.” 3) When saying to the Lord that no-one would believe her, Jesus answered (This is from memory); “Proud hearts of worldly wisdom will seek your official authentication - and fail to climb the mountain of holiness with you.”  Wow! “As far as the heavens are from the earth, so far are My thoughts from yours”, says the Lord. I will leave it to the scholars to give you chapter and verse.  Makes one think!

Cradle Catholic - you are quite right: it was not an INSTRUCTION to approach Jesus through His Mother. Nevertheless, Mary intercedes for us to Jesus Who is the Intercessor with the Father. A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.

If you say that the Gospel is not what the youth (and all mankind) are hunkering for, then it seems that Jesus came to give us the Good News for nothing. But I suspect He knows what He is doing.

Another point to ponder: Liturgy was made to worship God, not to replace Him. Nevertheless, there is evidence that the FreeMasons did have a good attempt to upset Vatican II, but I don’t think there is enough collated evidence out there to finally conclude yet to what extent they succeeded. One needs to stay awake and pray.

“When I look at ALL the apparitions where Mary has supposedly appeared to Catholics, like Guadalupe, her message includes points like she wanted a church built to HONOR HER.  That is NOT from God, based on what Scripture says.  In those apparitions, Mary was NOT just “pointing to Jesus”.

The devil is in the details and it will behoove my fellow Catholics to question bishops that may not be led by the HOLY Spirit.  It must be the HOLY Spirit that leads us.

Concerning the above: The Lord does not only appear to Catholics. An easy example is Vassula Ryden who was a non-practising Greek Orthodox. There are many other reported examples if one does a little research. I have not kept copies of all the accounts since my resources are small. The Scriptures mention that the Lord will contact even those who didn’t seek Him, and that He will give visions, dreams, etc..

I find it fascinating that those who cling to the Bible (and rightly so) have apparently not wondered about HOW the Lord sends us His Holy Spirit to guide us as He promised. What mode of contact would He choose, do you think. Deafening silence,perhaps? I don’t think so. How did He speak to people in the past, and who did He choose? The learned and the worldly wise, full of their own spirit? No, He didn’t. Again, the Lord says: “I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.” Do you think He will change just because we are in 2010? For Him, a thousand years is like yestersay.

Just got this news which may interest those who think Our Lady only appears to Catholics. Quote from CathNews - India Shrine vandalized in Andhra Pradesh Published Date: December 13, 2010:
“The priest said the church was elevated as the diocesan Marian Shrine after Mother Mary is said to have appeared to two Hindu boys on Aug. 4, 1999. Thousands of people visit the shrine throughout the year.”  http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2010/12/13/shrine-vandalized-bishop-calls-for-calm/

One last comment about honouring Mary: -
Jesus was and is sinless. That means He keeps the commandments, including the fourth one: Honour your father and your mother. This is the will of God. In one message of the Lord - I forget where - you have me on the spot - He said: “Honour My Mother as I, who am the Lord, honour Her.”

Another point to reflect on is this: When one goes into another’s home, can one stay there and insult the family? No-one who insults Jesus’ Mother will be tolerated in Heaven; one must adjust one’s attitude this side of eternity or join the one who hates Her most.

“.....why did Jesus say, when the apostles told Jesus His mother and His brothers wanted to speak to HIM, “Who is my mother?  Who are my brothers?  They are those that hear and obey the word of God.”

Consider this interpretation: “Who are those that are closest to Me? Who are those that are most intimate with Me?” “Surely, those who love Me and co-operate with Me, viz. love God and obey His Commandments.”

It is good that the virgin Mary’s appearance has been authenticated.  There are some such sightings that is of a female demon who just does not cut it. Since the Catholic Church is already aware of this, they are very careful in analyzing the data. The virgin Mary appears to children on a regular basis, especially to those who are near death. Lucky for her, these children ae often slighted as they are told that it is just your medication. But that little smile on their face that they hide from others says they know that she appeared to them. Since Herod had many children murdered, she has a very special place in her heart for the children and especially the unborn. Woe to those who cause spiritual damage to the children and especially to those who do not plant the seed of faith in the children.

To Janet Cardin-

There is no such thing as a “female demon”.  They are fallen angels, and spirits.  No males, no females.  Angels were never and are not now human.

They can take on an appearance of being human.  But they are not “female demons”.  It’s important to understand this - because Satan and “his” fallen angels, are real.  Go to Ephesians chapter 6 in the Bible, to know how to avoid them.

By the way - when a shrine is built to honour Our Lady, yes, she is honoured there but God is WORSHIPPED there.

Gail- It is a problem when Mary supposedly ASKS for a shrine/church, etc. to be built in HER HONOR.  Everyone knows we only WORSHIP God.

There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary, for that matter.  But there IS a LOT wrong with Mary supposedly ASKING for anything to be built IN HER HONOR.  It is a HUGE RED FLAG.

Cradle Catholic,

You sound more like a Chick Publications man than a true Cradle Catholic.  In fact that is exactly what I think you really are, you spout all of their worn out arguments under the guise of being a “cradle Catholic”

God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.

Do you think Mary is being ‘cheeky’ by asking for a shrine where God will be worshipped? Do you really think Our Lady appears against God’s wishes? This is the Woman whom God raised up to undo the damage done by the fall of Adam and Eve, and whom by her perfect humility and obedience pleases God by co-operating with His Plan of Salvation? What about Guadaloupe? What about Fatima? What about Lourdes? How do you think Our Lady is crushing satan’s head, if not by destroying heresy (satan’s delusions and lies)? Be careful not to have an apoplectic fit when the final dogma of Our Lady - Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces and Advocate for God’s People is declared. Meditate on the mysteries of the Holy rosary - Our Lady Assumed into Heaven, body and Soul and crowned Queen of Heaven by God Himself (who else could do that?). Is the latter not the highest honour possible? Who are we to quibble over a mere shrine in her honour where God will be worshipped?

Kenneth M. Fisher - I have never even heard of Chick Publications before. Perhaps you could give me a short summary of what they do?  I’m just a practicing, church-going, cradle Catholic, that has read the Bible.  I do not leave my brain at the Church door.  I like to THINK about what I read.

Gail Ramplen - You wrote: “This is the Woman whom God raised up to undo the damage done by the fall of Adam and Eve, and whom by her perfect humility and obedience…” AND “How do you think Our Lady is crushing satan’s head…”

My Reply - God sent us JESUS to undo the damage done by the fall of Adam and Eve.  Mary played a ROLE in His plan.

Regarding who is crushing Satan’s head:
Again, it is JESUS that crushed Satan’s head, when He rose from the dead after the Crucifixion.  As for the “woman” in the Book of Revelation, that is Israel, not the Blessed Mother.

Salvation for ALL of us that accept the free gift of Jesus’ substitutionary death that comes from the Jews.  Not from Mary.  Jesus did what we could NOT do for ourselves.

Mary owed her life being saved to Joseph, who had the power to have her stoned, for being with child, and not from him.  Joseph does not get the recognition HE should have for his ROLE in the plan of our salvation.

I challenge anyone to take up Our Blessed Mother’s request for the Daily Rosary and not eventually be inspired by Her Spouse to take up Daily Mass.

She always leads to Her Son.

God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.

Kenneth-

Please give this some thought:
The Holy Spirit is NOT Mary’s “Spouse”.  The ENTIRE CHURCH is the Bride of Christ.  Jesus is the Groom.  There is but One Groom; many people, ALL of us that believe and follow Jesus, comprise One Bride.

If the Holy Spirit WERE Mary’s spouse, it would result in 1) either her being excluded from being IN the Church or 2) it would result in US being excluded from being the Bride of Christ or 3) it would make God a polygamist, something He hates.

So please give this some thought.  Mary was NOT an “unwed” mother.  Jesus merely had a miraculous birth.  Joseph is Jesus’ earthly foster father.  The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and it was through Him that Jesus had life.  No human sperm “seed” was involved.  Mary rejoiced in God “her Savior”, in her Magnificat.

Mary is a created being, just like you, me and everyone reading this blog, as are the angels, both fallen and faithful.  The Triune God is NOT Created.  The Holy Spirit did not marry any ONE human being, Mary or otherwise.

Pray the rosary.  Go to Daily Mass.  But please, Kenneth, give God His due thanks and worship and honor.  Only HE is worthy.

Cradle Catholic,

If that is what you really are, it is obvious by your comments that you DO NOT ACCEPT THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH ON MARY!

For your information, “Chick Publications” is a radical anti-Catholic publication that constantly preaches what you are trying to preach here.

Jesus will crush the head of the serpent in the end days, but he will use His favorite instrument, the intercession of His Mother and the Spouse of the Holy Ghost to bring it about.  Apparently you do not even believe in the intercession of the Saints of whom Our Lady is the greatest, and you certainly are not even familiar with the many titles the Church in its wisdom have given to the Mother of God.

St. John talks of his vision of the New Jerusalem descending from Heaven.  Do you actually believe he saw an entire intact City descending from Heaven?  Why do you think you know more than the great Saints of Our Church such as St. Louis de Montefort and others when it comes to Our Blessed Mother?

I feel very sorry for you because you do not accept the Church’s teachings on the intercessory powers of Our Blessed Mother.  At best, you have to be a product of our modern so called catechesis.

God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher

Dear Cradle Catholic – I will send my replies in a series of seven comments on the site.
re: your comments: -
1   God sent Jesus to undo the damage, etc…… 
My reply: True. Jesus is our Saviour Who took upon Himself the punishment due to the sin of Adam and Eve and all the subsequent sins of humanity. He reconciled the human race to God Who created us and gave us free will to come to Him freely, obediently and in love – not by duress or force.  Needless to say, God was not blind to the consequences of this gift when He gave us free will but He wanted us to come to Him freely, of our own accord, and in love.  “If you love Me, you will keep My Commandments.” He did not say: “If you don’t obey Me, I will force you.” He puts before us fire and water and says: “You choose.” In this life, He trains us in heavenly virtues, assisting us just as an earthly father will assist, with great love and patience, his child’s first tottering steps, saying “Come, walk to Me.” God assists us but we must do the walking, focusing on Him, learning from Him, obeying Him and above all loving Him.

To enable a Man like Adam to undo the damage of satan, God chose to work through a human woman, namely Mary, to give flesh to His Son and fulfil His intentions that He revealed in His messages through the prophets. Jesus is the only one Who was not born of a man’s seed but of the seed of a woman and of God Himself – the only place in the Bible (Genesis) where the seed of a woman is spoken of rather than the seed of a man. In this sense Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit whose power overshadowed her during the conception of Jesus in her Womb. This does not exclude the members of Christ’s Body, the Church, from also being spiritually wedded to the Creator; scripture says that God will wed His creation. God raised up Mary, free from the consequences of Original Sin, so that she would be a pure and fitting dwelling place for His Son; in this sense, He raised her up to undo the work of satan – by giving flesh to His Son, the Saviour.

2. re: “If the Holy Spirit WERE Mary’s spouse …etc
If the whole Church is wedded to Christ, then according to your reasoning, God is already a polygamist.
Have you ever wondered how a man, as part of the Body of Christ, can be wedded to Him? Ponder that thought. As Mary was so specially chosen by God to co-operate with His Plan of Salvation, and was the first and foremost member of the Church, how could she be excluded from being wedded to Him in that sense as well?

re: “Mary was not an unwed mother…”
She was unwed at the time of conception. The conception of Jesus was miraculous, and by Our Lady’s account in her messages “To her beloved sons, the priests” so was His birth, since Mary was always a virgin. Ponder that too. Do you think of what you are really saying when you say: “Mary, ever Virgin..”

4.  re: “… give God His due thanks and worship and honour. Only He is worthy.”
True, in the Scriptures it is said that only God is good. However, nothing impure shall ever enter Heaven, so I deduce that when one goes to Heaven then one is pure. Our Lady is in Heaven, the only one besides Jesus who is there body and soul. Don’t you think that this was a huge privilege and honour for God’s mother, who Jesus gave to be our Mother too? He has and does honour her. We should too. Actually, in honouring Mary we honour God too by recognizing His power and graciousness.

5.  re: your disagreement with my question “How do you think Our Lady is crushing satan’s head ..”
By Jesus’ sacrifice, we are justified; sanctification is what God is busy with in us at present and with which work we should be co-operating; glorification is what happens when one reaches Heaven in a pure state. If Jesus had finally crushed satan’s head with his sacrifice, how is it that satan is still running rampant in the world?  Remember, we are to come to God freely and in love. Satan is the one who wrecks God’s plan and His creation, he hates love hence his work in destroying and perverting relationships and love in any form; we need to choose God’s way. “I am the Way”, says Jesus.  The victorious ones, the Saints, are not just sitting up there on a cloud humming a merry tune, they are co-operating with God in His ongoing work of Salvation. Mary, too, continues to co-operate with God’s plan, appearing all round the world, at God’s bidding, to win souls to God.

6.  I find your remark about Mary owing her life to Joseph repugnant in the same way that a similar remark would offend if it were said that all virtuous women owe their lives to the men who exercise chastity and don’t go around fornicating and committing adultery and rape. In the Gospels, Joseph is termed a righteous man. Note that he was not called a self-righteous man, one who could have reasoned that his honour had been upset and that he was justified, even bound to kill Mary and the Child in her womb, in spite of some dubious angelic message which he might have reasoned to be a delusion. No, he was humble and obediently submitted to the revealed Will of God, no matter how peculiar and even shocking this desire appeared to be. Thus he was righteous in the sense that he put God’s wishes as a first priority. We are all in God’s power and under His protection; God’s Arm does not lack the power to protect His Own, just as He protected His Son, Mary (His Daughter, His Spouse and Mother of His Son) and Joseph whom He chose to be foster-father to His Son. Nevertheless, it is true that the evil that the world does falls back on the earth, and we need to constantly appeal for His protection. I note also that you don’t mention stoning the male perpetrator; is this cowardice on the part of males, self-justification, or what?

7.  Check out India’s biggest Marian shrine near Chennai, which this week got a new railway link to facilitate travel by the millions of pilgrims who go there. This shrine commemorates the appearance of Mary in the 16th century at this place to a disabled Hindu boy, healing him. “Shrine officials estimate that around five million people visit the shrine throughout the year and more than 50 percent of them are from other religions.” Oh, child of God in the West, where is your faith? http://www.cathnewsindia.com/2010/12/20/india’s-biggest-marian-shrine-gets-rail-link/

Cradle Catholic:
re: your statements – “Regarding who is crushing Satan’s head: Again, it is JESUS that crushed Satan’s head, when He rose from the dead after the Crucifixion. As for the “woman” in the Book of Revelation, that is Israel, not the Blessed Mother. Salvation for ALL of us that accept the free gift of Jesus’ substitutionary death that comes from the Jews. Not from Mary. Jesus did what we could NOT do for ourselves.”
My reply:
1.  I was referring to the Woman in the Book of Genesis, not Revelation.
2.  Nevertheless, that is an interpretation that is novel to me, viz. the Woman being Israel (in the Book of Revelation). Please justify this statement.
3.  Mary was a Jew too.
4.  Yes, in the sense that: “… comes through the Jews since Jesus was/is a Jew, and salvation comes from God.”
5.  Alas, not all will be saved – some go to Hell by their own free choice.
6.  Language has its limitations when imparting concepts.

Kenneth- Do you read the Bible regularly or participate in any Bible study classes?  I can recommend Jeff Cavin’s The Great Adventure, A Journey Through the Bible = it’s excellent, and about 96% ‘catholic’, with a small ‘c’.  I took his 24 week program and the Acts of the Apostles, a shorter program.  Wonderful.

About 15 years ago, I read the Bible from cover to cover for the first time - best thing I ever did.  It took me about 4 months, and I’ve been in the Word ever since.  It is a gift to read Scripture = God’s word.

Gail Ramplen-  You have so many comments, it will take me a while to read all.  But re: “The Bride of Christ” - There is One Body of Christ & it’s “The Church”.  God is not already a polygamist.  Jesus, the Groom, is coming back to take His Church as His Bride, and we, the Church, are to try to keep ourselves spotless, until His return.  Individuals TRY to keep ourselves spotless - and by reading Scripture, and knowing what He wants from us, it helps us to focus on HIM. 

By His death and resurrection, we, the Church, are Justified.  Now, as we live in the world, we participate in our Sanctification- the process.  When we go to be with Him, either by death, or when He comes again, we will be Glorified with Him, & live forever with Him in Heaven. So simple.

Kenneth Fisher writes to Cradle Catholic:
“I feel very sorry for you because you do not accept the Church’s teachings on the intercessory powers of Our Blessed Mother.  At best, you have to be a product of our modern so called catechesis.”

Mr. Fisher, whether one accepts Cradle Catholic’s position or yours, I am not sure how important this “ultimately” is to the Catholic / Christian faith?  Cradle Catholic seems to be rooted in St. Paul’s teachings while you seem to be rooted in the writings of the saints of the church.  I am confused.

Gail, you wrote: “...the only place in the Bible (Genesis) where the seed of a woman is spoken of rather than the seed of a man. In this sense Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit whose power overshadowed her during the conception of Jesus in her Womb.”

My reply - Women have NO SEED.  Seed is sperm.  That’s why the “seed” is from Israel - & it’s a metaphore.  Mary is like the “First Tabernacle” Jeff Cavin’s speaks of in his Bible Study series on Catholic Radio, because a tabernacle is just a VESSEL to HOLD the sacred.  The tabernacle is special.  But it is what’s IN it that makes it Sacred.

You wrote in the same post: “God raised up Mary, free from the consequences of Original Sin, so that she would be a pure and fitting dwelling place for His Son.”

My reply: However God made Mary special is His concern.  The Vatican and for millenia has spent SO much time pondering the significance of Mary that they work themselves (and many Catholics too) into a frenzy.  Now they are considering making her “Co-Redemptrix”.  In her Magnificat, Mary said, “My soul rejoices in God, my Savior”.  So she WAS saved - the question is WHEN.

Everyone would have to completely disregard ALL the verses in the New Testament that instruct us that, “NO one seeks after God…” and “There is NONE righteous, no not one.” In ALL those verses, the Roman Catholic church Bibles do not have little tag on clarifications or notations, saying “... except for Mary, who was sinless”.

If only every Catholic in the World would just read the Bible, in context and in full, and be able to teach it to others!  Now that would honor God, and it would make Mary happy too.  She is a member of the Communion of Saints, and lives in Heaven with Jesus.  All generations call her “Blessed” - they ought not call her Co-Redemptrix and put her on the same level as Jesus - at His Right Hand.  No no.  Jesus is at the Father’s Right Hand.  We don’t know who, if anyone, is at Jesus’ Right Hand = making that person EQUAL to Him.  That’s the significance of being at the King’s Right Hand.

Gail, you wrote: “She was unwed at the time of conception. The conception of Jesus was miraculous, and by Our Lady’s account in her messages “To her beloved sons, the priests” so was His birth, since Mary was always a virgin. Ponder that too. Do you think of what you are really saying when you say: “Mary, ever Virgin..””

My Reply - I do not believe in the apparitions, and do not believe in the messages Mary is supposed to have delivered.  Too much is said about her in those messages, and too much of it pushes the Vatican’s agenda.  If Mary ever appears and says this to fellow Catholics, I’ll believe it:

“READ YOUR BIBLES, IN FULL AND IN CONTEXT.  DEMAND THAT YOUR PRIESTS, BISHOPS, CARDINALS AND POPES TEACH GOD’S TRUTHS TO YOU - NOT PEOPLE’S OPINIONS OR THEIR GOOD IDEAS.  BUT GOD’S TRUTHS.  YOU WILL KNOW GOD’S TRUTHS, BY READING HIS WORD.  THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL OPEN YOUR EYES TO UNDERSTAND IT.  ALL THINGS WILL PASS AWAY BUT GOD’S WORD WILL LAST FOREVER.  AFTER YOU READ HIS WORD, TEACH IT TO OTHERS.  GOD WANTS FOR EVERYONE TO BE SAVED, AND TO HAVE A KNOWLEGE OF HIM.  THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH JESUS.  AT THE END OF TIME, EVERY KNEE WILL BEND AND EVERY HEAD, BOW, TO JESUS.  BLESSED ARE THEY THAT KNOW THAT NOW.  DO NOT FORSAKE THE GATHERING OF THE ASSEMBLY.  KEEP HOLY THE LORD’S DAY.  TRUST AND OBEY GOD.  STAY HUMBLE.”

When Mary gives that message - I’ll believe God sent her to share His message with us.

Gail wrote: “However, nothing impure shall ever enter Heaven, so I deduce that when one goes to Heaven then one is pure.”

My reply - there is no way anyone can read and understand Paul’s letter to the Romans, and still think a believer is impure.  Gail, please READ and STUDY the Book of Romans.  The above statement is in disagreement with what Paul wrote.  The Roman Catholic Church accepts the book of Romans as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit (through Paul) is not wrong.  I believe what’s written about this in Romans.  And by the way, I once read verbatim, Romans Chapter One to a lesbian (I didn’t know she was lesbian at the time), and she just did NOT have “ears to hear” that same-sex relationships were unacceptable to a holy God, even though I read Romans 1 to her, in person and directly from Scripture.  The Holy Spirit did not get through to that lady - at least that day.  Perhaps she has changed since.

Gale wrote: “The victorious ones, the Saints, are not just sitting up there on a cloud humming a merry tune…”

My reply - how do you know?  They could be in Heaven, singing Holy, Holy, Holy to the Lord, God of hosts.  I love the Mass, when we get to that part.  I like to put myself with them, the Communion of Saints, in Heaven, and picture everyone casting our golden crowns at Jesus’ Feet.

As for Mary appearing all over the world - Gale, it’s a slippery slope.
We must remember not to give Mary the attributes that only God has -
1) omniscient, and knowing everything 2) omnipresent, and everywhere at the same time.  Mary is not co-eternal, co-existent and co-equal with the Holy Trinity.  Mary is a created being, albeit she was given Grace - God’s unmerited favor.

It is unmerited, so that no man (or woman) could boast.  All glory goes to God.  We’d be best off just getting to know God more, and to teach about Him and the Good News, the Great Commission, to others that don’t know Him, rather than to spend so much time discussing Marian dogmas, that are impossible to prove, just like it’s impossible for us to know what no longer earthbound saints are doing.  We can only know they are not like God.

Gale wrote: “Remember, we are to come to God freely and in love..”

God didn’t take bad people and made them good.  God took dead people and made them alive - thus we are REborn in Christ, and “new Creations” with God as our Father, Jesus as our Brother - we are adopted into His family.

Remember Jesus told the Pharisees, “You are of your father, the devil.”
That was when they claimed they were of the seed of Abraham, and he was their father.  Do an Internet search on where that verse is.  Jesus said it.  I have a Catholic Bible, and it’s right there.

Gale, you wrote:  “I find your remark about Mary owing her life to Joseph repugnant in the same way that a similar remark would offend if it were said that all virtuous women owe their lives to the men who exercise chastity and don’t go around fornicating and committing adultery and rape.”

That’s just a fact - Joseph had the right to have Mary killed, if he wanted to.  Women were not treated well in that society. In fact, right now, there is a Christian woman in the Middle East, that’s looking at being murdered herself - and just for being Christian!  She has 5 kids.

You are correct in that it indicated Joseph was righteous by protecting his family.  In a homily last Sunday at Mass, the priest gave a good message.  He said in the first reading, the (bad) king did NOT listen to the message given to him by the prophet (about the Virgin will bear a Son).  But Joseph LISTENED and UNDERSTOOD the dream he had, and just like Abraham, who obeyed God, it was “credited to him, as righteousness.”

Read Hebrews Chapter 11 for the Hall of Fame of people that listened and obeyed.  King David did a LOT of bad things - but his heart was with God, and God called David, the man after His own heart.

Thank God for His mercy - in the Bible, God says, “Jacob I have loved.  Essau I have hated.”  Some people don’t like that - thinking it’s not fair of God to say He hated someone.  But the REAL point is that He loved Jacob!  Jacob tricked his own brother!

Thank you for your kindness in engaging me in dialog, Gale.  I have to go over your comments again, in case I left other points out.  You wrote a lot and it’s difficult to respond all at once.

Cradle Catholic,

You have no idea how much studying and more importantly prayer and suffering I have given to the question of Our Blessed Mother’s role in our salvation.

It is blaringly apparent that you know little of Mariology.  For instance the Church gave Mary the title of “The New Jerusalem” and that is the FEMALE City that John saw descending from Heaven.

Have you ever read any of the writing of St. Augustin, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis De Sales, St. Louis De Montefort and many others on the role of Mary in Salvation?  If you have, you have completely rejected what they taught of Her.  If you haven’t, for the good of your supposed Catholic soul you should.  Have you ever heard of the Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar where Our Blessed Mother, while she was still alive, appeared to St. James to console him because he was distraught that his efforts in Gaul, now Spain had come to near naught?

Again I feel very sorry for you because you do not accept the Church’s teachings on the intercessory powers of Our Blessed Mother.  At best, you have to be a product of our modern so called catechesis.

God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.

Kenneth,  you wrote:  “You have no idea how much studying and more importantly prayer and suffering I have given to the question of Our Blessed Mother’s role in our salvation.”

I respect your opinion except for the “suffering” part.  Please explain what suffering you have experienced in Mary’s role in salvation?  Also, you admonish Cradle for rejecting the teachings of Augustine, Aquinas, DeSales, Montefort, et al.  Have you considered that simply because something is taught does not make it true and factual?  The writings of church approved saints are opinion and, yes, should be considered—but these opinions are extra-biblical.  You will have to demonstrate whereby such extra-biblical beliefs in Mary (thats “extra-biblical”) play any part in your, mine or anyone’s salvation.  In the end, do you expect Mary to be present when you die and face the Lord?  Since you seem to place such great importance on the role of Mary in salvation **beyond** her earthly vessel role, no one —Magesterium or noted saints have stated or taught that Mary will be present when we face the Lord at the hour of death.  As a Catholic, are we not allowed to question anything outside the basic tennants of the faith?

To Kenneth M. Fisher - you asked me, “Have you ever read any of the writing of St. Augustin, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis De Sales, St. Louis De Montefort and many others on the role of Mary in Salvation?”

No - I have not.  The reason is that most of these men disagreed with each other on several very important points, and many even changed their OPINION over the course of their lives, having a different view of things, at the end. 

I want to know TRUTH, and I read only universally accepted Bible texts.  In fact, I have been in a Bible study for several years, where a few non-Catholics join us (at our Roman Catholic parish) and we are all on the same page about matters of ETERNAL IMPORTANCE.

Even when we Catholics referred to the Book of Maccabees, the non-Catholics were able to follow along, because they know it is historical, they just don’t believe it should be used for doctrine.  Not a matter of ETERNAL IMPORTANCE.

Kenneth - please read Scripture.  The Holy Bible is God’s love letter to us.  God is merciful, compassionate, the only One worthy of the word: Awesome.  He is unchanging.  His Word is unchanging.

His Word is the only thing that will last “Forever”, and in the Bible, God reveals Himself to us, as He did when Jesus came to earth, 2000 years ago.  God’s word is TRUTH.  Just believe it.  It’s so easy.  He will not let you down - ever.  “I will not leave you orphans.  I will never leave you or forsake you.  I go to prepare a place for you….” so many of His promises!!!!!  God is good - all the time.

New Observer,

I don’t intend to answer your questions regarding my sufferings for the faith and for the Blessed Mother.

God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher

Kenneth, your original statement was:  “...suffering I have given to the question of Our Blessed Mother’s role in our salvation.”

Now you have revised your statemenet to: “...sufferings for the faith and for the Blessed Mother.”

These are two different statements.  And of course, you are free to not explain your statements.

The answer is simple, both statements are valid.  Why do many of you make the invalid conclusion that those of us who honor and invoke the intercession of Our Blessed Mother as constantly urged by the Magisterium don’t read the Bible?  I may have read it more than you, and I will not tell you how many times and how many Bibles I own.  What do you think happened to all of those people who lived before the Bible was even printed for the common man.  Answer: they were taught by good and holy priests and religious and by Tradition and there may well have been more saints per capita in those times than now.

God bless, yours in THEIR HEARTS,
Kenneth M. Fisher

To Kenneth M. Fisher-  It’s not how many times one has read the Bible, or how many Bibles one owns.  It’s how much of the Bible we allow to sink into us, and how we make its wisdom part of our lives.

As for the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints of the early church - they had the Hebrew Bible (Mary quoted much of it, in her Magnificat) and they had the VERBAL TEACHINGS of the apostles, the LETTERS, such as Paul’s and the others that are in our New Testament.  So it’s the same information. It just was not called the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament” BIBLE.  But the information was the same.

I have issues with NEW DOCTRINES being brought into the church.  Right now, I know of an instance where some wealthy and influencial Catholic people want to make a new saint.

It’s interesting because this is like “sainthood by demand”.  Very few people have EVER heard of this person before now.  But I have an upclose and personal view of HOW new “saints” are CREATED.  I imagine it was the same as in earlier days, when there was even more superstition than today.  The agenda right now seems to be: 

1) Get a handful of wealthy and influencial people to put in some seed money for any person they want declared a saint- if the person acted “holy”, and claimed to have “heard from Jesus” or Mary, that’s good enough.
2) Get a bishop’s ear, and have that bishop get a few more bishops to back him to get the project off the ground and give it credibility - by that time, it “LOOKS” so good, the project is well underway, to send it to the Vatican.
3) Start releasing and teaching the information supposedly received by the “seer” or the “visionary” or modern day prophet.
4) Have two people testify they prayed to that person and got a healing, and voila!!!  You have yourself a saint.

NONE of this is in the Bible.  It’s not how many times a person has read a Bible, or how many Bibles they own.  Unless the truths in the Bible never became part of us we may be deceived.

Kenneth - Please pray about reading the Bible, and just learning and accepting the truths at face value, and please pay less attention to all the extra-biblical information out there.  It honors God to hear and obey HIS Word.  Merry Christmas Season and a Happy New Year to all.

Gail’s Replies to Cradle Catholic:                        You’re welcome!       

1.  Re: “The Holy Spirit is NOT Mary’s “Spouse”. The ENTIRE CHURCH is the Bride of Christ. Jesus is the Groom. There is but One Groom; many people, ALL of us that believe and follow Jesus, comprise One Bride.”
Gail’s Reply: Not a good argument: Mary believes/d in and follows/ed Jesus. Therefore, even in the limited sense above, she is still the bride of Christ. Why should she be excluded? Spiritual jealousy, perhaps? (That was the motive of the first murder recorded in the Bible – the slaying of Abel by his brother Abel – because of spiritual jealousy.)
2.  Re: “Salvation for ALL of us that accept the free gift of Jesus’ substitutionary death that comes from the Jews. Not from Mary. Jesus did what we could NOT do for ourselves.”
Reply: If you can say that salvation came from the Jews, you can surely say salvation came from Mary – she was His Mother, after all. How more Jewish could she be? (I don’t like that preposition – I would prefer ‘through’ or ‘via’, but I am not a linguist.)  But perhaps you have a blind spot concerning Mary? You seem determined to exclude her from everything?

Gail’s Replies to Cradle Catholic:                        You’re welcome!       
Gail to Cradle Catholic
3.  Re: “The Holy Spirit did not marry any ONE human being, Mary or otherwise.”
Reply: But the Holy Spirit only caused conception in one human being, to bring about the incarnation, viz. in the flesh, of God’s only Son. This is a unique case in the general espousal of God with His creation. Certainly a special case, significantly worthy of note. Joseph, who is a marvellous Saint, did not have carnal relations with Mary. The Church teaches that Mary was ever a virgin; that means before conception of Jesus, during the birth and afterwards. Hmmmm! Need to study and ponder that one to get a full grip on its meaning!

To Cradle Catholic
Re: “Jesus, the Groom, is coming back to take His Church as His Bride, and we, the Church, are to try to keep ourselves spotless, until His return. Individuals TRY to keep ourselves spotless - and by reading Scripture, and knowing what He wants from us, it helps us to focus on HIM.” “There is no way anyone can read and understand Paul’s letter to the Romans, and still think a believer is impure.”

Gail’s reply: Except for Jesus and Mary, name me one who is/was spotless at death. Since we are generally not spotless at death, even when we have read the Scriptures, are we then excluded from Heaven? Forever? “Nothing impure shall ever enter Heaven.” Hmmmmm!

I think this is one of satan’s slyest, most subtle and most successful deceptions. If we believe that we are pure by simply reading the Scriptures and having a somewhat half-hearted attempt at following the Lord’s guidelines and commandments at our convenience, then we can sit back and relax in a spiritual sleep unaware of the dangers to one’s soul. This gives satan a free hand to attack the sleeping soul. Not only that, but one does not exert oneself in trying to pay off the debt due to sin which is required to satisfy God’s justice. In both Jesus’ and Mary’s messages, they exhort us to stay awake and be alert to satan’s tricks. This same warning is recorded in the scriptures. Sin is sin, and sin is impurity. Sin results in (spiritual) death and separates us from God. We all have sinned and have fallen short. Remember, Jesus said that we should settle our debts BEFORE we go to court, viz. to Judgement, because otherwise we will be thrown into jail until we have paid the last cent. Jesus will be our Judge and there will be no jury and no smart-assed lawyer. This brings me to another of His statements in the Messages (from which grace you seem to have barricaded yourself – there are none so deaf as those who don’t want to hear): He said: “Use the indulgences of My Church” …. to mitigate the debt. In spite of what Luther thought, God still graciously indulges the penitent sinner who wants to co-operate with Him. Jesus and Mary, in their Messages today and yesteryear to various saints, exhort us to go to Confession regularly, at least monthly, for you do not know the hour….  “Happy are those whose wrongs are forgiven, whose sins are pardoned! Happy is the person whose sins the Lord will not keep account of!” Rom 4: 7.

Re:
Gail wrote: “However, nothing impure shall ever enter Heaven, so I deduce that when one goes to Heaven then one is pure.”
Cradle Catholic replied that “….. The above statement is in disagreement with what Paul wrote. The Roman Catholic Church accepts the book of Romans as inspired by the Holy Spirit.”

Gail’s reply: Clearly, you have not accepted the teachings of the RC Church regarding Mary, so you can’t use acceptance by the RC church of the Letter to the Romans as an argument to require me to accept their acceptance of the Letter to the Romans. As a matter of fact, I do accept but am not required to by your reasoning. This is: select and accept according to one’s liking. 

Are you alluding to the fact that we are all called to be saints? If you are, then true, we are. Nevertheless, some of us go to Hell and therefore we are not saints. At what stage do you think we become saints? On earth, before we go to Hell? Or only after we are in Heaven? Or maybe some of us are saints all the time on earth from birth to death (or at least from the time we are ‘re-born’) and then go straight to heaven? The Church teaches us that only Jesus and Mary were sinless. How many others have ascended or been assumed body and soul into Heaven?  Hmmm! The plot thickens.  Why would Jesus have instituted the sacrament of Confession if we were all pure once we became believers? That would be superfluous.

To Cradle Catholic

Cradle Catholic – Re: Your reply: -
Women have NO SEED. Seed is sperm. That’s why the “seed” is from Israel - & it’s a metaphor. Mary is like the “First Tabernacle” Jeff Cavin’s speaks of in his Bible Study series on Catholic Radio, because a tabernacle is just a VESSEL to HOLD the sacred. The tabernacle is special. But it is what’s IN it that makes it Sacred.
Gail’s reply:
1. Consider the following: “Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” King James Version.
“Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” King James Version.

Now, if you are one of those who “obey God’s commandments and are faithful to the truth revealed by Jesus” then the Book of Revelation says that you are a child of the Woman - who is the same Woman as the one in Genesis. In Genesis (the first book), God announces His plan; in Revelation (the last book) he indicates the fulfillment of His plan. He fulfills His plan of rescuing His children from the clutches of satan through the birth, death and victorious resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ, born through the Woman who is Mary.
2. Yes, Mary was the first tabernacle in the flesh, so to speak. You too, if you have been to Holy Communion, are a tabernacle of the Most High God.
3. Jesus established a mother and son relationship between us and His Mother when He spoke to St. John from the Cross in the words: “Woman, behold your son. Son, behold your mother.” This is confirmed in the words in Revelation quoted above. So, honour your Mother!

Cradle Catholic wrote: “………Jesus told the Pharisees. “You are of your father, the devil.” 
Gail’s reply: Yes, when we accept and go along with satan’s lies, we separate ourselves from God and become children of satan. We become ‘the traders’ referred to in the Book of Revelation, who traded the truth for a lie.

Cradle Catholic Replied:
However God made Mary special is His concern. The Vatican and for millennia has spent SO much time pondering the significance of Mary that they work themselves (and many Catholics too) into a frenzy. Now they are
considering making her “Co-Redemptrix”. In her Magnificat, Mary said, “My soul rejoices in God, my Savior”. So she WAS saved - the question is WHEN.

Everyone would have to completely disregard ALL the verses in the New Testament that instruct us that, “NO one seeks after God…” and “There is NONE righteous, no not one.” In ALL those verses, the Roman Catholic church
Bibles do not have little tag on clarifications or notations, saying “... except for Mary, who was sinless”.

If only every Catholic in the World would just read the Bible, in context and in full, and be able to teach it to others! Now that would honor God, and it would make Mary happy too. She is a member of the Communion of Saints, and lives in Heaven with Jesus. All generations call her “Blessed” - they ought not call her Co-Redemptrix and put her on the same level as Jesus - at His Right Hand. No no. Jesus is at the Father’s Right Hand. We don’t know who, if anyone, is at Jesus’ Right Hand = making that person EQUAL to Him. That’s the significance of being at the King’s Right Hand.
Gail’s response:
1   Re: “However God made Mary special is His concern”. Cradle Catholic, if you loved God, it would be your concern as well. Aren’t we being a little pompous here?
2   Co- does not imply equal; it means ‘with’. Co-Redemptrix means that (Our Lady) co-operated and participated with Jesus in His redeeming work, inter alia standing at the foot of the Cross. We are all called to be co-redeemers by participating in Jesus’ work of redemption by offering prayers and sacrifices for ourselves and others. Were we not called to be ‘priest, prophet and king’ at our Baptism?  A priest is one who offers sacrifice. A prophet announces the Word of God. And the Scriptures say that we will rule with Him – and if we have been faithful in small things we will be given greater things to do.
3   Why do we offer prayer and sacrifice? It is part of our sanctification process and atonement for our sins.
4   Re: In her Magnificat, Mary said:” My soul rejoices in God, my Savior”. So she WAS saved - the question is WHEN.
Gail’s reply: The Scriptures record that the Angel told Joseph that Mary’s Son would save God’s people from their sins.
King James Version: Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Cradle Catholic, I have no reason to believe that Mary was unaware of this communication to one who was so close to her, and having chosen Joseph for his particular role in salvation, I am convinced that God would have prepared him for this role and guided him as he carried it out. Mary was spared the effects of Original Sin by a special grace, participating in advance from her Son’s Redemptive acts. It is hard to understand that there is no time in eternity.

Points to ponder:
1 “The truth of God is greater that that of man. The tree of knowledge is still a tantalizing temptation to My creatures. Pride waits, lurking at the foot of this tree. Many souls reaching to take the fruit of this tree do not even notice the bite of the pride serpent which sinks into their ankles. The poison of pride quietly seeps up to poison the whole soul of such as these.” Jesus to Debra, June 1994.
“In examination of yourself you will find that truly I have called each one of you to be my priest, prophet and king. Judge not others, mankind. Have you judged the fruit of your work as My prophets? I have called each of you to follow Me and proclaim the Good News of the Victory of My Cross. Each of you, take up your divine calling to be My prophet to the nations carrying My Words doing My actions through the empowering of My Spirit. So many …. so many in My own Church still prefer to cradle the viper of pride and neglect cradling Me. And yet they judge themselves so often as holy and judge even My servants as evil.” Jesus to Debra Thursday, 23rd June 1994.

Points to ponder:
2 “Mankind fails to recognize the gifts of heaven and accredits himself with divinity failing to recognize and honour My hand in all things. This is a success of the prince of darkness that foolish ones fail to honour My gifts: these heavenly guards (the angels), the myriad of beauty in nature, the gift of life, the gift of My Mother. Honour Me in all things. 2 John 7: “There are many deceivers about refusing to admit that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.” (JB). It is My incarnation that their hearts do not accept. The greatest commandment I gave is the one of love. Read 2. John 5-6. These souls lack the fullness of charity and fail to welcome the Woman who gave Me Her flesh. They have chosen to stand with the serpent in conflict with the Woman chosen by the Father for the Son. She who will crush the head of the serpent is the enemy of the children of darkness, many of whom have disguised themselves as Christians. Love is not in them. Always test the spirit for love. If each soul truly believes in My incarnation as man, then each would love My Mother too. The deceiver has many ways of lurking with Christians. He deceives souls who lack love, to believe that they serve Me in faithfulness by denouncing My Mother. He can only do this to souls which are weak in love and so also in their faith too weak to receive Me as truly man. I am both the Son of God and the Son of Man. Ponder this, My souls. I am Jesus the Son of God and the Son of Man, the Son of the Ever Virgin Mary. So many souls enter My House and raise their voices in praise and yet they insult Me when they also raise their voices against My Mother who stood faithfully in the shadow of My Cross. Souls of deceit, you bring darkness into My House in the guise of pious praise. I who read all hearts am insulted by this deception. I am the Lord who speaks. I am the Son of Mary and I say this – They who have persistently nursed the rage of satan against this Woman who is crushing now the head of the serpent, will experience My justice. I will hurl punishment on the deceivers who have claimed to be Mine and yet served the beast. They too are the dragon which spits forth after the Woman of God’s favour whom Heaven has adorned. They who have chosen to stand with the dragon against the Woman will know this punishment now. The deceiver leads many away from the Truth and the Church through fury against Mary, the humble handmaid. In this time My little ones will stand up with Michael who protects the Woman for now is the time for the crushing.  ….” Jesus to Debra Monday, 3rd October, 1994.
Note also that the Scriptures record that the Lord will pour down teaching like prophecy. This is it! Stay awake!

Gail, thanks for your thoughtful insight and reply comments to Cradle Catholic.  I want to understand you better on one of your points.  Immediately above you state that “Mary was spared the effects of Original Sin by a special grace.”  This statement has no foundation in Scripture since Mary does indeed “rejoice in God my Savior.”  Were she not in “sin” (—a sinner as all men are born into), she would have no need of a Savior.  My point is this.  Why would Mary declare her need of a Savior if she were sinless?  It is surely acceptable that her conception was immaculate —that of a virgin.  However, there seems to be no requirement that Mary be sinless in order to give birth to the Christ-child.  The Christ, being Holy Himself, did not/does not carry any DNA of Mary so He would not be of any stain or imperfection and subject to human Original sin.

Also, yes, I too agree with your comment regarding Mary’s role in salvation.  However, your reference to Jesus’ Gospel comment:  “Salvation is of the Jews” has its orgin not in Mary but in God’s convenant with Abraham and his resulting lineage because of Abraham’s obedience.

Re comment from Cradle Catholic on Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 9:31 PM (EST):
Gale wrote: “The victorious ones, the Saints, are not just sitting up there on a cloud humming a merry tune…”

My reply - how do you know? They could be in Heaven, singing Holy, Holy, Holy to the Lord, God of hosts. I love the Mass, when we get to that part. I like to put myself with them, the Communion of Saints, in Heaven, and picture everyone casting our golden crowns at Jesus’ Feet.

As for Mary appearing all over the world - Gale, it’s a slippery slope. We must remember not to give Mary the attributes that only God has –
1) omniscient, and knowing everything 2) omnipresent, and everywhere at the same time. Mary is not co-eternal, co-existent and co-equal with the Holy Trinity. Mary is a created being, albeit she was given Grace - God’s unmerited favor.

It is unmerited, so that no man (or woman) could boast. All glory goes to God. We’d be best off just getting to know God more, and to teach about Him and the Good News, the Great Commission, to others that don’t know Him, rather than to spend so much time discussing Marian dogmas, that are impossible to prove, just like it’s impossible for us to know what no longer earthbound saints are doing. We can only know they are not like God.

Gail’s reply:
From all accounts the saints do sing praises to God together with the angels. However, Blessed Mary MacKillop appeared to Debra in the mid-90’s, so did The Little Flower. So did Blessed Senora Taigi, Saints Don Bosco, Louis de Montford, and St Padre Pio as recorded in her Diaries. The latter saint spoke to Vassula as recorded in the Messages ‘True Life in God’.  On one occasion, when Jesus was speaking to Vassula, He brought along St Bede who was unknown to her at the time and she asked of the Lord: “Who is he?” I didn’t know either and so I took pains to find out. He was the priest who first translated the Bible into English centuries ago.
In the apparitions of Our Lady in Theriot in Louisiana for the past ten years, she brings along many angels and saints and souls being purified in Purgatory to pray for priests – the latter can pray for others but not for themselves. The priests mentioned above are appointed by God to take care of His messenger, Debra. St Joseph, you’ll be pleased to note, is patron of her mission – God gives him the necessary powers and resources and so he rules with God. Pope John Paul II has appeared at least twice at the mission in Louisiana – once at the usual last Saturday of the month apparition just after his death and again some time later, and once to one of the visionaries in Medjugorje on the very day after his death.  St Michael, God’s archangel has given messages to Vassula and to Debra. I am sure there are many other reported instances if one takes the trouble to research the matter. The Little Flower has reportedly appeared several times to various people.  One needs to examine the evidence before sitting in judgement and reaching a conclusion, premature or otherwise; look at the consistency of the reports, look at the content and nature of the message and above all ‘by their fruits you will know’.  The latter is very Biblical – the Lord did give us the way to recognize the true prophets.
Now one does not have to believe all this – one can ignore the evidence, but that is like my complaining that the news service didn’t tell me about the floods in Australia, while I haven’t been listening to the news reports because of other activities. Then I wake up and say: ‘That’s important! Why didn’t they announce that?’  We can wait for the Church to ‘authenticate’ the messages and reports, but I guess by then we will have already have been judged and sentenced, and have ‘failed to climb the mountain of holiness’ together with the Lord’s messengers. We will have tripped over the Stumbling Block, Who is the Holy Spirit in our day, just as Jesus was the stumbling block in His day.

Our Blessed Mother is not omnipotent or equal to God. That is clear, but at the bidding of God and in the power of the Holy Spirit, she appears wherever she is sent and does whatever the Lord wishes her to do, perfectly humble and obedient forever.

What do you mean by:  co-eternal, co-existent and co-equal? From the time Our Lady was created, she is eternal, but indeed she was created; she did not always exist, just like us. She certainly is not equal to God. No argument there.

By the way, what makes you think that the Lord can’t or won’t delegate? What use are servants if they can’t carry out orders?

Gail - you put a lot of time and thought into your reply to me.  I’ll do my best to respond to several of your questions and comments:

Gail wrote: “Except for Jesus and Mary, name me one who is/was spotless at death. Since we are generally not spotless at death, even when we have read the Scriptures, are we then excluded from Heaven? Forever? “Nothing impure shall ever enter Heaven.” Hmmmmm!

Cradle’s reply: When we are born-again, the Holy Spirit seals us, forever.
The “Good News” is that we cannot save ourselves, but we can ACCEPT Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross as payment IN FULL for all our sin.
It gives us access to God the Father, and Jesus acts as our Advocate to the Father, in our prayer to Him.  We have the Holy Spirit living inside of us - forever, as we are sealed.  We are impure.  We still sin.  But when the Father sees us, He sees Jesus’ covering us.  Almost like a leper that IS still a leper, but he/she has a covering of the finest white garment, and is made presentable in a royal court.  Underneath?  It’s still us, flawed and all.  It is written that when we are UNfaithful, He remains FAITHFUL because He IS that way, and can’t NOT be that way.  Hard to understand.  But is it not cause for PURE JOY?  For total GRATITUDE?  For wanting to SPREAD THIS GOOD NEWS?  Shout it from the rooftops?  We serve a merciful God!

Gail wrote:  “The Church teaches us that only Jesus and Mary were sinless. How many others have ascended or been assumed body and soul into Heaven?  Hmmm! The plot thickens.”

Actually, I believe it was the prophet Elija that was also taken into Heaven body and soul, and directly by God.  So the Assumption of Mary, while it’s not in the Bible, is a doctrine that may (or may not) be true. I think it’s not a good idea to stress about the doctrines about Mary so much - because belief in her has no ETERNAL VALUE.  We can all find out about Mary when we get to Heaven.  The KEY FACTOR HERE IS:

What do we say about Jesus?  The devil believes in Jesus.  The devil knows Jesus IS God.  Demons know Jesus is God.  But they do not follow Him.  They never did, and they never will.  That’s why they are indeed condemned and forever.  But we have an opportunity to KNOW “The Truth” = Jesus, and the Truth will set us FREE.  There is freedom in handing our lives over to Him, making Him our Lord, and our Saviour, and in serving Him.

Just today I heard this - as a New Year’s Resolution:
Daily ask ourselves this:

1- make Jesus the Lord of our lives.
2- make a good Act of Contrition = confess sins daily
3- read the Bible, to get to know more about Jesus.  The Old Testament is about Jesus concealed, and the New Testament is Jesus, revealed.

Gail wrote:  “Why do we offer prayer and sacrifice? It is part of our sanctification process and atonement for our sins.”

May I amend this to read in a different way?  How about this:
We offer prayer to God in order to maintain our communication with Him; to have the benefit of a relationship where there is LISTENING and DEEP
INTERACTION, as with any other relationship.  The “sacrifice” we offer is ourselves, daily.  We give over to Him our lives, body and soul, to be used for His glory and for His work here on earth.  He CAN and DOES do it without us.  But we give Him glory to act as His servants (like Jesus washed the apostle’s feet, as an act of humility, to SHOW us how to serve Him.)

There is NO MORE atonement for our sins.  Jesus paid the price for ALL our sin.  We do repent, and we can confess daily - as I mentioned in an earlier post.  But there is no more payment for sin at all.  That is the Good News.  Only those that are truly “born-again” will realize that this is NOT license to live in an ungodly manner and not repent for it.  Anyone that saw it that way is NOT “born-again”.  A born again person would never, ever want to GRIEVE the Holy Spirit.  We want to please Him.
We grieve, when we sin.  Knowing we are forgiven prompts us to want to forgive OTHERS, and that brings glory to God.  It shows we are in His family and are called: “Christians”.

Gail wrote: “Mary believes/d in and follows/ed Jesus. Therefore, even in the limited sense above, she is still the bride of Christ. Why should she be excluded?”

Cradle reply - Mary IS in the Church, the Bride of Christ.  She is NOT excluded from being in the Church, called the Bride of Christ.  Think about this, if you will - carrying your earlier statement to the limit, if Mary were a special Bride of Christ, she’d be married to her Son.  When the apostles asked Jesus to show them the Father, He said, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.  I and the Father are One.”  The Holy Spirit is also God - and a part of the Father, and the Son, though the Trinity is indeed a mystery, revealed in 3 separate Holy Persons in One God.  Mary is not married to God - not to one or to any of them.  She merely gave birth to Jesus, so that He was 100% human and 100% God. 

Gail wrote: “But perhaps you have a blind spot concerning Mary? You seem determined to exclude her from everything?”

Cradle reply
No - Mary has a very important ROLE in Jesus’ birth.  But that is all it is, a role, and for her role, as she said in her Magnificat, all generations will call her “blessed”.  Mary has a significant ROLE in our salvation.  But Jesus is the Main Key to our salvation.  We ought never usurp Jesus and God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit with anything or any one that is created.

Gail wrote: “...when we accept and go along with satan’s lies, we separate ourselves from God and become children of satan.”

We can NEVER separate ourselves from God, AFTER we become His children, by being ‘born again’.  By birth, we are children of satan.  Even Jesus told the Pharisees that were claiming to be children of Abraham, “You are of your father, the devil.”  He said IF they were children of Abraham, they would have accepted Him, and recognized Him as the Messiah.  They did not.  They were blinded, and they were “of the world”.

But when we are “IN JESUS” - we are branches of The Vine, we can NEVER be separated from Him.  Jesus said no one could snatch out of His Hand ANYONE the Father gave Him.  I mentioned earlier the verse that even when WE are UNfaithful, God remains FAITHFUL, because He can’t deny Himself - His nature.  It’s Who He is.  Therein lies the security in turning our lives over to Jesus now.  All we have to do is to seek Him, and He comes rushing towards us!  “Behold, I stand at the door (of your heart) and knock” - the doors to our hearts have only one handle, and it’s on our side of the door.

Jesus, always the gentleman, will never push His way into our lives.  He waits - and He knocks.  The time is now, to get to know Him.  And what a blessing it is to be in this country, where Bibles are so plentiful, and we can read and study His Word, in peace.  It is in His Word that His character and God’s nature is revealed to us.  Learn more now, and soon, because we will have an eternity to know Him more, in Heaven!

Grace, mercy and the peace that only comes through Jesus, to all.

So called “Cradle Catholic”,

You are once again showing your arrogance.  How do you know the extent of my Biblical studies and knowledge?  You don’t even know how a person’s sainthood is discovered.  It isn’t because somebody said so, I happen to be part of a group seeking saintly status for a Fr. Aloysius Ellacuria, CMF, and I happen to have been the American Secretary to His Excellency, the late Archbishop Lawrence Khai of Thare Non-Seng Thailand, who was the Postulator for the Cause of the “Seven Blessed Martyrs of Thailand”, and I happen to have been with the Archbishop on his last Ad Limina visit when the Cause was discussed further.

May God have Mercy on your dissenting soul.

God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher

Gail’s reply to New Observer re reply to Kenneth Thursday, December 23, 2010 5:23 PM:
All opinions learned or otherwise, need to be evaluated in the light of other evidence and definitely in the light of the teachings of Scripture. (The Lord gave us a brain and I daresay He means it to be a tool to come nearer to Him.) But then one can argue the toss and choose to include and exclude information according to how it supports or detracts from one’s own opinion. For example, the Book of Isaiah was not accepted by many Jews and was rejected on the basis that it supported Jesus’ claim to be the Messiah. Selective blindness set in, one could argue. It is the old story of the five blind men who investigated the elephant and gave five very different reports based on their own experience of that elephant, oblivious to the bigger picture. Sometimes it is best to withhold judgment until the picture emerges more fully.  Today, there are many who reject any heavenly contact post New Testament; it is as if God really died there on the Cross and was never heard of since.  God is not dead and ‘alive He will act’.  The problem is that these apparitions fall outside of our own personal reality and we can only go on hearsay and judge that based on the probabilities. If I told you that I drove a red car yesterday, you would only have my word for it since it was not within your reality; you would have to weigh up the probabilities based on other information such as did I have access to a red car, etc.

The Scribes and Pharisees had all the Scriptures but Jesus called them sons of satan because they refused to accept the implications and the truth of the Scriptures and rebelled against God’s plan. The same problem exists today and probably always will; it is a question of faith in and acceptance of God or of rebellion.

Would it be an issue if Mary was not present at our Judgment?  Is that a reason to dishonor her? Surely it is more important that she prays for us and intercedes for us to her Son Jesus prior to that defining moment? That we ask for her intercession for the graces we need for our protection and sanctification now and especially at the hour of our death when satan gets his last chance at us (not at Judgment), is the ancient tradition of the Christian Church. 

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus’ mother should not be honoured?

Gail’s reply to Cradle Catholic on Monday, Dec 27, 2010 2:33 PM (EST):
Re: “It’s how much of the Bible we allow to sink into us and how we make its wisdom part of our lives”. True and that is fairly obvious. But some of us arrogantly assume that our superficial study and subsequent mis/understanding of what the Scriptures say is what was meant. This is indeed a dangerous and misleading assumption. The Scribes and Pharisees apparently fell in the same trap.

Furthermore, people throughout the ages have battled to come to terms with new things even when they are self-evident. History is replete with such examples. Nevertheless, I challenge you to show that those who want a particular person to be raised to the altar can produce a miracle to support their case. Only God can do that. In any case, what would be the point? Consider: Luk 16:31 “And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

In any case, to demonstrate a miracle is not as simple as some two folks testifying to it. A lot more proof is needed. Even when the Pharisees realized the healing of the lame man, they fought against it. We hate to give credence to what we don’t want to believe. It’s human nature.

Beware of swimming in polluted (spiritual) waters! Set you feet firmly on the firm foundation that Jesus gave us: the rock of Peter.

Gail Replies to Cradle Catholic:

Why do we have a problem with recognizing saints? Isn’t that outcome everything we hope for - for ourselves? We don’t all raise our hopes as high as being raised to the altar, but why do we resent the fact that God raises up some as models for us and as confirmation that perseverance in following God’s Way has a glorious outcome? Why are we so perverse?

Gail Ramplen-  Does our Church model St. Paul’s life and writings perfectly?  No.  Most definitely, NO.  Our church does not understand or teach Paul’s writings in full.  Not even Catholic apologists can teach Paul’s letters, in their entirety.

Yet St. Paul learned all he knew directly from the Holy Spirit.  Read his letter to the Galations.  There is no better model than St. Paul, as a late New Testament saint and as a model for perserverance.

Why have umpteen saints in every generation, even ours, if we can’t model St. Paul’s life and writings PERFECTLY?  Sometimes less is best.

The Vatican should close down the congregation for the causes of saints, and put the resources: people, time and money, into Evangelization of the Gospel.

On a mission this weekend, I attended 4 different Masses and heard 4 different homilies all on the same readings. 3 out of the 4 homilies were totally without eternal value, and two veered into the area of near bad doctrine.  Only one priest gave tidbits on which to chew, but even he preached as if everyone in the congregation KNEW their faith as well as he obviously does.  What if someone was seeking and not yet Christian?

ALL four priests overlooked “THE GOSPEL” message.  And yet it is that which is necessary for salvation.  Or there is no promise which to claim.
No “Good News”.  We are told to participate in the Great Commission, not to spend time and effort making saints.  In fact, one priest (not the one that gave the good homily) said that he’s often asked by non-Catholics, “Are Catholics Christian?”

Please do not become angry with ME for writing the above.  A priest said it, and in his homily.  He’s heard that question so many times,  he wanted to address it.  I’m just the messenger.  It was not ME that asked him that.  It’s a valid question.  He went onto say that there ARE a LOT of distractions in the Catholic faith, because bottom line: our church is run by humans.

Those humans really have no clear idea who or who isn’t in Heaven.  But we DO KNOW for a fact that the Bible is God’s revealed Truth to us - and it details how we need to live, and teach others.

Re: “Gail, thanks for your thoughtful insight and reply comments to Cradle Catholic. I want to understand you better on one of your points. Immediately above you state that “Mary was spared the effects of Original Sin by a special grace.” This statement has no foundation in Scripture since Mary does indeed “rejoice in God my Savior.” Were she not in “sin” (—a sinner as all men are born into), she would have no need of a Savior”.
Gail’s reply: No, but the whole world needed a Saviour, and she was given this grace in anticipation of Jesus’ saving sacrifice.

“My point is this. Why would Mary declare her need of a Savior if she were sinless? It is surely acceptable that her conception was immaculate—that of a virgin.”
Gail’s reply: Are you contaminated by the misconception amongst some Protestants that the meaning of Immaculate Conception is that Mary was not conceived in the normal way, viz. by conjugal relations between her parents? That is pure rubbish and a misunderstanding of the dogma. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being given the special grace (in anticipation of Jesus’ saving mission for the human race) of not being affected by the consequences of the original sin committed by Adam and Eve and which separated the human race from God because of disobedience/rebellion. (It has got nothing to do with the misconception that some have that conjugal relations are a sin.) If God saw fit to arrange the incarnation of His Son in a vessel in His grace & favour and not in the state of separation from Him, then I certainly don’t have a problem with that and respect His need for absolute holiness in the vessel that carried His Son.

“However, there seems to be no requirement that Mary be sinless in order to give birth to the Christ-child.”
Gail’s reply: No requirement for whom? Your view on that need is entirely irrelevant. God’s need/decision trumps your opinion.

“The Christ, being Holy Himself, did not/does not carry any DNA of Mary so He would not be of any stain or imperfection and subject to human Original sin.” 
Gail’s Reply: If He did not carry Mary’s DNA, then He would not be the Son of Man! Joseph was not His father, so how else could He be Son of Man? How else could he be ‘of David’? If He had no human DNA, that would mean He would be purely divine and not son of man. (By the way, tests on the blood of the Shroud show human DNA, a rare kind but human DNA nevertheless. But I suppose you will fall back on the disbelief in the Shroud being authentic. Don’t bother!) Where else, but from Mary, would He have got His DNA! Mary was ’of David’ too because Jews had to marry within their own tribe, so if Joseph was ‘of David’ then, necessarily, so was Mary. Oh, and if He had none of Mary’s DNA, then He wouldn’t be of Abraham’s lineage either, except perhaps in the purely spiritual sense. (Check the Old Testament to study this fact.) Kindly note that the original sin was one of disobedience and not one of having carnal relations.

“Also, yes, I too agree with your comment regarding Mary’s role in salvation. However, your reference to Jesus’ Gospel comment: “Salvation is of the Jews” has its origin not in Mary but in God’s covenant with Abraham and his resulting lineage because of Abraham’s obedience.”
Gail’s Reply: I was being a bit facetious, since you seemed so determined to exclude the Jewish virgin of God’s choosing from any honour at all, on any pretext whatsoever, no matter how flimsy!  However, Mary was also obedient and played a pivotal part in God’s salvation plan, no less so than Abraham did.

Cradle’s reply: “When we are born-again, the Holy Spirit seals us, forever. The “Good News” is that we cannot save ourselves, but we can ACCEPT Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on the cross as payment IN FULL for all our sin. It gives us access to God the Father, and Jesus acts as our Advocate to the Father, in our prayer to Him. We have the Holy Spirit living inside of us - forever, as we are sealed. We are impure. We still sin. But when the Father sees us, He sees Jesus’ covering us. Almost like a leper that IS still a leper, but he/she has a covering of the finest white garment, and is made presentable in a royal court. Underneath? It’s still us, flawed and all. It is written that when we are UNfaithful, He remains FAITHFUL because He IS that way, and can’t NOT be that way. Hard to understand. But is it not cause for PURE JOY? For total GRATITUDE? For wanting to SPREAD THIS GOOD NEWS? Shout it from the rooftops? We serve a merciful God!”
Gail’s reply:
I think you are letting yourself in for a devastating awakening Dear Fellow Cradle Catholic. You are saying that we can be like a sepulchre – all white on the outside and stinking on the inside! Yech!  God will not be mocked! When we are baptised (never mind its popular euphemism: ‘re-born’), our sins are wiped away. What sins we commit after that, in rebellion to God’s way of perfect holiness, will need to be wiped away and the damage to our souls repaired. Don’t you believe in Hell or damnation?  If we were so covered by Christ’s blood as you say, nobody would go to Hell. That would mean that our free will would have been taken away from us, something God will never do because He gave it to us in the first place so that we could come to Him freely and in love, not by force or duress. We have to choose between Him and satan, His adversary. That is the name of the game, if you will. In His mercy, we can be cleansed in Purgatory of the minor imperfections before being allowed into Heaven; otherwise we would all go to Hell because ‘nothing imperfect will ever enter Heaven’.  God is not a fool, and He doesn’t take rubbish into His Home or the rebellious into His eternal realm. If it were not for Christ’s atoning sacrifice, we would all go to Hell in any case, that is what Christ saved us from. You can think of purgatory as a place where we finally learn and master God’s manners (the manners practiced in God’s Courts) to the extent we have not mastered them here on earth. No proud, impure, rebellious, disobedient or stinky, filthy children allowed in Heaven!
Furthermore, what is the point of having a Judgement, if there is no sentence? That would be absurd.

Gail wrote: “Mary believes/d in and follows/ed Jesus. Therefore, even in the limited sense above, she is still the bride of Christ. Why should she be excluded?” Cradle reply – “Mary IS in the Church, the Bride of Christ. She is NOT excluded from being in the Church, called the Bride of Christ. Think about this, if you will - carrying your earlier statement to the limit, if Mary were a special Bride of Christ, she’d be married to her Son.”
Gail’s reply: As part of creation wedded to the Creator God, yes she would be married to God – who is Trinitarian. As part of the Church of Christ on earth, yes, in that sense she is married to her Son. Having conceived God’s Son by the power of the Holy Spirit, yes, she is spouse of the Holy Spirit (See? She wasn’t an unwed mother, after all!) Having been created by the Father, she is daughter of the Father. Thus, she is daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Spouse/bride of the Holy Spirit, Mother of God. This is truly a unique and amazing relationship to the Trinitarian God. Anyone who casts a stone at her, casts a stone at the pupil of the eye of God. Beware!

Cradle: “Thus When the apostles asked Jesus to show them the Father, He said, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. I and the Father are One.” The Holy Spirit is also God - and a part of the Father, and the Son, though the Trinity is indeed a mystery, revealed in 3 separate Holy Persons in One God. Mary is not married to God - not to one or to any of them. She merely gave birth to Jesus, so that He was 100% human and 100% God.”
Gail’s reply re: “She merely gave birth to Jesus, so that He was 100% human and 100% God.”  I am glad that you have come around to that. Didn’t you say before that Jesus didn’t have any of Mary’s DNA, which would make Him 100% divine and 0% human?

Gail wrote: “But perhaps you have a blind spot concerning Mary? You seem
determined to exclude her from everything?”
Cradle reply “No - Mary has a very important ROLE in Jesus’ birth”.
Gail’s interjection: That’s like saying the pig played a role in giving you the bacon on your plate! I would say her part was pivotal/essential!

Cradle:“But that is all it is, a role, and for her role, as she said in her Magnificat, all generations will call her “blessed”. Mary has a significant ROLE in our salvation. But Jesus is the Main Key to our salvation. We ought never usurp Jesus and God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit with anything or any one that is created”. 
Gail’s reply: Quite right! God is God and we worship Him alone! We honour Mary, the one He honours too.

Re: Cradle -: ‘We can NEVER separate ourselves from God, AFTER we become His children, by being ‘born again’ ‘.
Gail’s reply: Even when we are baptized, our free will remains with us; it is not taken away. We are free to sin again. Your three recommendations are good and I would add: ‘Make a good confession in the Sacrament of Penance, in which the priest represents God himself for the forgiveness of sins and applies a penance. If you have comprehended the words of Jesus: John 20:23 ‘Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (KJ)’ then you will realize that this is His wish. Most are too proud to confess to another human being, and too ashamed. We need to humble ourselves and be truly sorry for offending God and falling short of His absolute holiness yet again, in order to avail ourselves of this grace of forgiveness. No short cuts allowed.

Cradle, yes it was the Prophet Elijah. Quite right. Another righteous person who submitted to God’s Will. Consider the following: “Dear children! Today I call you to unity (communion) in Jesus, my Son. My motherly heart prays that you may comprehend that you are God’s family. Through the spiritual freedom of will, which the Heavenly Father has given you, you are called to become cognizant of the truth, the good or the evil. May prayer and fasting open your hearts and help you to discover the Heavenly Father through my Son. In discovering the Father, your life will be directed to carrying out of God’s will and the realization of God’s family, in the way that my Son desires. I will not leave you alone on this path. Thank you.” During the apparition on 2nd January 2011, Mirjana (of Medjugorje) felt that she could or should say to Our Lady, “We have all come to you with our sufferings and crosses. Help us, we implore you.” In response, Our Lady extended her hands towards Mirjana and everyone present and said, “Open your hearts to me. Give your sufferings to me. The Mother will help.” Yes, we can ignore the Mother of God - which is offensive to Him, and try to go to Heaven His home singing “I can dooooo without You oooooo!” But don’t you need all the help you can get? But if we finally make it to Heaven, she will be an eternal presence. We might as well get to know her now while she can help us get there. Beware the pride that lurks behind this arrogant independence. Look what happened to satan. We are lucky in a way, the angels got one chance to accept God’s plan, and we have a lifetime.
re: ‘….. because belief in her has no ETERNAL VALUE.’
Gail’s reply: If the Mother of God can help us get to Heaven then I reckon that has very much of an eternal value.

Re: ‘Even when we Catholics referred to the Book of Maccabees, the non-Catholics were able to follow along, because they know it is historical, they just don’t believe it should be used for doctrine.  Not a matter of ETERNAL IMPORTANCE’.
Gail’s reply: So they don’t intercede for God’s mercy for their loved ones in Purgatory. Alas for those poor neglected and suffering souls. True, they will go to Heaven in any case, eventually. However, praying for them would be an act of spiritual charity which would have eternal consequence for that charitable soul at the very least. May I suggest you Google Scott Hahn’s website where he offers free computer based Catholic Bible Instruction. He comes from a Protestant background and has travelled through all the various heresies; he has studied extensively before and after being convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church of God. He would be able to guide you over the many pitfalls in the interpretation of God’s Word.

Gail comments to a prior posting:
“However, there seems to be no requirement that Mary be sinless in order to give birth to the Christ-child.”  Gail’s reply: No requirement for whom? Your view on that need is entirely irrelevant. God’s need/decision trumps your opinion.

Irrelevant?  That’s an interesting “opinion” on your part, Gail.  The sinlessness of Christ was not dependent on Mary.  There is no foundation in Scripture (zero) supporting any need of the virgin to be preserved from sin.  The Christ was already sinless as the Son of God prior to the incarnation.

Gail Ramplen, you wrote:
“When we are baptised (never mind its popular euphemism: ‘re-born’), our sins are wiped away. What sins we commit after that, in rebellion to God’s way of perfect holiness, will need to be wiped away and the damage to our souls repaired. Don’t you believe in Hell or damnation?”

Cradle’s reply:
The term “re-born” is one Jesus used in the Bible.  It’s not a popular euphemism.  Our sins were wiped away by Jesus ON THE CROSS at Calvary 2000 years ago.  All our sins were in the future back then.  God, in His Sovereignty, KNEW who He would call to Himself, and we come, through Jesus.

When I was young (even older!) I believed when I sinned after having gone to confession to a priest, my white colored soul got blackened.  The venial sins were sort of like black dots, almost like measles, on my white soul.  It was only when I read the Bible (in full and in context) that I realized I AM FORGIVEN, FOR EVERYTHING AND FOREVER, UNTIL GOD BRINGS ME HOME TO HIMSELF.

I do believe in Hell and in damnation.  Adolph Hitler was baptized into the Roman Catholic faith, as was Mussolini.  Joseph Stalin was baptized into a Christian denomination as well.  But their lives showed that the water baptism was nothing of eternal value, just like the Pharisees, that called themselves sons of Abraham, gained nothing by being of the blood of the Father of the Jewish nation.  It is the HEART that matters.

There is ONLY Heaven and Hell.  We decide who Jesus is - accepting Him as our Lord and our SAVIOR here, while we are on earth, and while there is time.  After death, there is no chance to be saved from Hell.  Just like the account of Lazarus and the Rich Man, in the Bible.  The Rich Man’s brothers had Moses’ writings and the prophets, and they could choose to believe what was written, or not.  After death, it’s too late.

Gail Ramplen, you wrote:

“So they don’t intercede for God’s mercy for their loved ones in Purgatory. Alas for those poor neglected and suffering souls.”

Cradle’s Reply:

God said He would never leave us or forsake us.  If anyone has the Holy Spirit living inside of them, while they are on earth, what happens to the Holy Spirit, if Purgatory exists?

Does the person take the Holy Spirit WITH them to Purgatory?  If so, then wouldn’t it make Purgatory into Heaven?  Heaven is where God lives.

How could there be poor, neglected & suffering souls, IF the Holy Spirit is WITH them?  How could they be neglected, with God living in them?

Gail Ramplen wrote:
“May I suggest you Google Scott Hahn’s website where he offers free computer based Catholic Bible Instruction. He comes from a Protestant background and has travelled through all the various heresies; he has studied extensively before and after being convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church of God.”

Cradle’s Reply:
I would LOVE to know what Scott Hahn teaches about St. Paul.  No Catholic apologist really understands and can TEACH St. Paul’s writings.  Each one will dance around Paul, contorting the Bible out of context, trying to make it fit their pre-conceived agenda.

It must be because most BISHOPS are poorly educated in the Christian
“Deposit of Faith”: The Body of Truth left to the Church by THE APOSTLES AND THAT’S RECORDED FOR US IN SCRIPTURE. 

The bishops are really good at the “some new doctrines”.  That’s why they LOVE to do NEW things: make new saints, create new and exciting doctrines for the masses of pew people to believe - it’s fun.  It’s lucrative too -look at the surge of new visitors to the diocese that declared this new apparition true!  What an economy booster!

Bishops and most Catholics will do ANYTHING, but read the Bible.  It’s boring.  It’s old.  It’s only God’s Word.  What does He know?  It’s the pope that’s really in charge.  God turned over EVERYTHING to Peter and now Pope Benedict is calling the shots.  God has to obey the pope of the day.

Even parish priests order Jesus around, and some saint said Jesus OBEYED the priest, humbling Himself in the Eucharist.  Some saint said that.  If we say some 3rd century saint said ANYTHING, many Catholics clammor to lap up the new beliefs, but not all.

Not all Catholics will drink the Kool-Aid.  Many pew people remain quiet, but we 1) put Jesus as the Lord of our lives 2) we repent daily, to keep in close Communion with Him and with other believers, and 3) we BELIEVE THE GOSPEL - AND THE GOSPEL, THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH, IS IN THE BIBLE.

If only more bishops would BE like Pope Benedict and STUDY Scripture.  Maybe with Benedict’s call for Evangelisation, more bishops & priests will.  There’s a big article in some Catholic newspaper in Dec. about Benedict’s call for clergy and the faithful to read the Bible.  It gives some hope.

How can Catholics be “salt and light” in the world, when we do not know the important things in our faith, matters of ETERNAL value.  It’s insulting to God, to put His Word AFTER everything else, even below some 3rd century ‘saint’ that shared his opinion.  Even Scott Hahn’s writings now is just an opinion.

Re: ‘Does our Church model St. Paul’s life and writings perfectly? No. Most definitely, NO.’
Gail’s reply: Who does anything perfectly? But we do try!

Re: ‘Why have umpteen saints in every generation, even ours, if we can’t model St. Paul’s life and writings PERFECTLY? Sometimes less is best.’
Gail’s reply: Are you questioning God’s Wisdom? After all, it is He who grants the miracles to confirm the particular saint. Where does it say in the Scriptures that we should not recognize the saints – the victories of God?
Re: ‘Our church does not understand or teach Paul’s writings in full. Not even Catholic apologists can teach Paul’s letters, in their entirety.’
Gail’s reply: That is a very broad and all-inclusive statement! I think you need to elaborate. Nevertheless, it is very clear that you have an imperfect understanding yourself as you have amply demonstrated in this debate, and not only of St Paul’s teachings – he must be ‘turning in his grave’ -  so I don’t think you are in a good position to make a statement like that. I think you are trying to teach your Granny how to suck eggs.
Re: ‘The Vatican should close down the congregation for the causes of saints, and put the resources: people, time and money, into Evangelization of the Gospel.’
Gail’s answer: They already put money and resources into evangelization of the gospel; you are free to add your contributions.
Re: ‘On a mission this weekend, I attended 4 different Masses and heard 4 different homilies all on the same readings. 3 out of the 4 homilies were totally without eternal value, and two veered into the area of near bad doctrine. Only one priest gave titbits on which to chew, but even he preached as if everyone in the congregation KNEW their faith as well as he obviously does. What if someone was seeking and not yet Christian?’
Gail’s reply: One of the great challenges of public speaking is to be able simultaneously to reach the whole audience in their various stages of development and knowledge. Especially on a Sunday where there is a wide range of people from the very young to the very old, from the ignorant to the learned, from the self-righteous and pompous to the humble, and from the well-informed to the misinformed. It is almost impossible to satisfy all these at once in a fairly short homily. As one gets older and more familiar with the teachings of Christ, one needs to exercise a little humility and patience, not to mention gratitude to God for the gifts He has bestowed on us without merit while meditating on the graces He has offered and we have disregarded. One thing that helped me greatly was attending a prayer and Bible study group on a weekly basis. These little faith centred groups go a long way to supporting one in one’s faith and building up community. We Catholics seem to think that the only one that should be doing the Lord’s work is the priest. This puts an incredible burden on him and in the final result impoverishes the community. We don’t minister to each other, by and large. We don’t build community. We seem to think that having gone to Mass on a Sunday, that is it! We don’t undergo training like grief-counselling, group leadership courses or other community based services the way my local Methodist community does. When my life fell apart, it was my Methodist prayer group that sustained me.  Who ran Alpha courses in Benoni where I live? Everybody except the Catholics.

Since most Christians grow up in little communities or ‘silos’ having various types of belief and are told never to mix with the other heathens (especially Catholics who are hated in a long tradition – check the anti-Catholic laws still in existence in Britain, a supposedly Christian nation), it is not surprising that people from Protestant denominations wonder if we are Christian. But the one who says he loves God and hates his brother is still walking in darkness.  The Protestant myopia over the Bible is because that is all they have! They threw out the rest. Not that one wants to downplay the importance of the Scriptures in any way, shape or form. Not at all! I have pondered the focus on the catechism which was taught almost exclusively in my Catholic school, and I have formed the opinion that learning from a summary (which the Catechism is and which has its place), is an impoverishment if the full story is not known. It is like reading a telegram when one does not know the story behind the rather terse statements. Very limiting! Pope Benedict has been urging Catholics to study the Scriptures and we need to take this lead seriously. Jesus says in one of His recent Messages: ‘How can you love Me if you do not know Me? Read My Word!”
I look forward to the days when the homilies have a bit more ‘meat’ in them and are not simply a paraphrase of what has already been read out in the readings of the day.

Re: ‘Those humans really have no clear idea who or who isn’t in Heaven’.
Gail’s reply: True, except when God confirms their status by giving miracles! And the saints rule with Christ and can intercede for us if we have the humility to ask them. They are closer to God and more intimate than those on earth whom we ask to pray for us. To rule implies that authority, power and resources are part of the deal, not just a dead statue on a pedestal.

Gail wrote:

“No, but the whole world needed a Saviour, and she was given this grace in anticipation of Jesus’ saving sacrifice.”  ....  Who told you this, Gail?  Scripture says the virgin shall be with child.  The Scripture does not say she (the virgin) shall be sinless.  The position you hold regarding Mary’s sinless state is that of theological opinion.  Someone told you this or you learned this in Catechism so you accepted this belief without asking that person ... how do you know this?  The deception is to accept opinion-based theology as factual truth simply because that is what you were taught even if the teachers were well-meaning.

Gail Wrote:

When we are baptised (never mind its popular euphemism: ‘re-born’),

Gail:  The term “Re-born” or Born Again is hardly pop culture.  You may have forgotten that Jesus informed Nicodemus in John 3:3 “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

You havd a misunderstanding of one being Born Again of the Spirit and that of having free will to sin.  Nicodemus, you recall, was also confused.  A person Born Again has surrendered his or her own will over to the Lord’s will for your life in everything.

Re: ‘ …. some saint said Jesus OBEYED the priest, humbling Himself in the Eucharist.’
Gail’s reply: Yes, the Lord does humble Himself to come to us in the humble little wafer even if the priest were to be in serious sin. He comes for us, His people, at the words of consecration in accordance with His own commands. We should humble ourselves too and adore Him in this form, going to Confession on a regular basis so that we receive Him in as pure a state as possible.
Cradle Catholic, your understanding of Catholic doctrine is seriously amiss. Go take the Scott Hahn Bible study courses by all means, but in order to learn we need to humble ourselves. Try that. I certainly hope you will not be let loose on unsuspecting people with your current misunderstandings and misconceptions.

I also used to think that Catholics don’t read the Bible much until I started going to daily Mass. Then I realized that the Readings travel through the Scriptures on a daily basis. We are actually meant to go to Mass daily and not just to the minimal Sunday attendance.

Don’t kid yourself about the Catholic Church subjugating God’s Word to anybody else’s. It is just that you are still in baby shoes and your current understanding is poor. Time to grow up, dear! Remember that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter and not to you, and that is Biblical.

Re: ‘How could there be poor, neglected & suffering souls, IF the Holy Spirit is WITH them? How could they be neglected, with God living in them?’

Gail’s reply: With or without the Holy Spirit, Purgatory is a place of great suffering. It certainly is not heaven. These souls are neglected by those of us who neglect to intercede/pray and offer sacrifice for them. In fact they are greatly loved by God, and after purification they will be forever with Him in Heaven.

Now, since I did not offer a free course in Catholic doctrine, I will stop my part of this debate and let you consult those who specialize in this type of education. I will pray that God may bless you.
Scott Hahn’s site: http://www.salvationhistory.com/  - the St Paul Centre for Biblical Theology. This should please you!

Gail Ramplen, on Tuesday, Jan 4, 2011 2:34 AM (EST) You wrote in response to my question,‘Does our Church model St. Paul’s life and writings perfectly?’

Gail’s reply: Who does anything perfectly? But we do try!

We do NOT try.  We do not even get close to what Paul wrote.  NO one and I mean NO one has ever answered this question, “What are the SPECIFIC qualifications for the ordained ministry, according to Scripture?”

I do not mean what are the verses that can be used to back up the PRACTICE of celibacy for clergy.  I mean what are the specific qualifications clergy are to have, before being ordained and acccording to the Bible? 

The Roman Catholic Church, and those eastern churches in communion with Rome IGNORE the wisdom in St. Paul’s pastoral letters to Timothy and Titus.  They ignore the verse Paul wrote to defend his own ministry as an apostle, 1Corinthians Chapter 9 verse 5. 

To ignore Biblical wisdom is to ignore God.  It’s not an imperfect TRY.  It’s not trying to follow His Word AT ALL.  The Bible is irrelevant and only used, when needed, to try to justify man-made practices, that conflict with God’s Word.

We are NOT “trying”.  We are IGNORING, allowing oursevles to be led by men that KNOW BETTER but they are weak.  If they were Holy Spirit-filled, they would DEMAND the Bible be heeded, in context and in full.

Re: ‘they would DEMAND the Bible be heeded, in context and in full’.
Gail’s reply: How could they DEMAND? Not even the Lord DEMANDS.

As for the rest: ‘Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions’. 1 Tim 1:6,7.  There is nothing new under the sun!

To Gail Ramplen-  You wrote: Gail’s reply: How could they DEMAND? Not even the Lord DEMANDS.”

Cradle Catholic’s Reply:
Please do yourself a favor, Gail, and sit down and read the Bible, from cover to cover.  Ask God to open your eyes to what you read, so you will understand what is in His Word.  If you truly believe that God does not ‘demand’ anything from us, you do not know the Bible.

It took me only 4 months to read from Genesis to Revelation, the whole Bible (the Catholic version of it) and it was the BEST thing I ever did in my life.  The best.  It is the ONLY thing that matters in the long run, and the ONLY thing that has eternal value.  It is written: “All things will pass away, but my word will never pass away.”

Re: ‘It took me only 4 months to read from Genesis to Revelation, …’
Gail’s reply: And it shows in the depth of comprehension you have revealed in the above discussions.  Try to do it again with a good tutor. Many have ‘rested on their own understanding’ and have fallen into apostasy. Actually, I have read the Bible comprehensively and I try not to rely only on my own understanding. So many people invest in shallow training and become an overnight expert, yet only in their own eyes. Have fun and God bless. I am busy on another project now.

Well, Gail, if you have read the Bible, and you do not “hear” or “see” anything in it from God, but you still have to rely on what other people tell you, then perhaps you are among those stiff-necked people of whom it is written, “They have ears, but do not hear; they have eyes, but do not see.”

Good luck with your project, and with your life.  We can live our lives in a garage but it doesn’t make us a car.

This was a long and exhausting exchange. Gail has used all the gifts of the Spirit to penetrate through an adamant mind that is,I would almost say evil-spirited in its self-assurance. She refuses to respond barb for barb, but in a loving, humorous way, gives fully orthodox Catholic teaching. Her counter-part(s) for most of the exchanges can’t really understand her, because they’-re not open to hear. This is the very definition of hardness of heart an evil spirit of contention, witnessed by St. Stephen as he was being stoned. His accusers stopped up their ears, so that they could not hear his teaching or his prayers for them. Gail, yours is the way to debate, with love and humor. If your paryer is like your teaching, full of love, there is still hope.

Gail’s reply:
Maybe. The Lord is my Judge.
Consider:
Pro 3:5
(DRB)  Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence.
(KJV)  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
(RSV) [5] Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight.

Cradle Catholic- re your comment Posted on Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 9:43 PM (EST): ‘You are correct in that it indicated Joseph was righteous by protecting his family’. 
Gail’s correction: Lest there should be a misunderstanding: I indicated that Joseph was righteous because he obeyed God, not because he protected his family. He protected his family, inter alia because he was obeying God’s command to him.

Re: ‘We can NEVER separate ourselves from God’
Gail’s correction: Cradle Catholic - This should read: ‘We can never separate ourselves from THE LOVE OF God’.  We CAN be separated from His presence. Ponder Mat 5:8
(DRB)  Blessed are the clean of heart: they shall see God.
(KJV)  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
(RSV) [8] “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Re my earlier comment: ‘Mary was ’of David’ too because Jews had to marry within their own tribe, so if Joseph was ‘of David’ then, necessarily, so was Mary’.
I did a bit of research and came up with some corroboratory information about Hebrew inheritance norms as cited below.

Since Mary was the only child of Joachim and Anne then, according to the source cited below, she would have had to marry the son of her father’s brother viz. her cousin on her father’s side, by the laws of inheritance which prescribed this so that the property of her father would stay in their tribe. Therefore, the number of generations from Abraham to Jesus would not differ from Matthew’s Gospel account in Chapter 1 because Mary and Joseph would have had the same grandfather.
Reference: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/case_studies/hebrews/inheritance.html

Bottom line, ALL bishops and the Vatican ought to be focusing on TEACHING and PREACHING the Word of God, IN CONTEXT.  I believe The Bible is the error-free, Holy Spirit-inspired Word of God.  I believe what Paul wrote about Scripture, in his Second Letter to Timothy:

“But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.  All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”  2 Tim. 3:14-17

This shows how important the Word of God is (whether documented in the Old Testament or the New Testament).  Instead of spending so much time on apparitions, that can’t be succesfully proven by ANYONE but God, we need our “shepherds” to shepherd us.

When Paul wrote his Pastoral Letters to Timothy and Titus, “pastoral” meant it related to shepherds: “pastors”, and to the duties of a pastor.  When Jesus appointed Peter to his special church position, He asked Peter, “Do you love me?” then He said, “Feed my sheep” and “Care for my sheep.”  My question is: HOW are our shepherds loving His Church today?
How are our “shepherds” obeying Jesus today?

Even in terms of the qualifications for our shepherds, I believe the Vatican has ignored Bible wisdom.  As proof, I offer quotes pertaining specifically to QUALIFICATIONS for those in ORDAINED MINISTRY:  1Tim. 3:1-5, Titus Chapter One.

1 Timothy Chapter 3: 1-5

1 This saying is trustworthy: 2 whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.
2
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,
3
not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.
4
He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity;
5
for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?

Titus Chapter 1

1 Paul, a slave of God and apostle of Jesus Christ for the sake of the faith of God’s chosen ones and the recognition of religious truth,
2
in the hope of eternal life that God, who does not lie, promised before time began,
3
who indeed at the proper time revealed his word in the proclamation with which I was entrusted by the command of God our savior,
4
to Titus, my true child in our common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our savior.
5
2 For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,
6
on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.
7
For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain,
8
but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled,
9
holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.

DOES THE ABOVE LOOK FAMILIAR TO ANYONE?  IT DOES NOT LOOK FAMILIAR TO ME.
The Vatican has, for years, IGNORED that wisdom.  Our church would be a lot healthier, WHEN we have leaders that KNOW the Bible, and OBEY it:

St. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians Chapter 9:

1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2
Although I may not be an apostle for others, certainly I am for you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3
My defense against those who would pass judgment on me 2 is this.
4
3 Do we not have the right to eat and drink?
5
Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?

Some folks may not like it.  But it IS in the Bible, and it ought to be obeyed.  I did not say the last sentence.  St. Paul did.  It’s not my “opinion”.  It is God’s Word.  The last sentence corresponds to the other verses about qualifications for ordained church ministers.

There should be less time and effort spent on studying apparitions and making saints of dead Catholics, and MORE TIME spent obeying God’s Word, that will result in more health in our church and of our church leaders being considered trustworthy.

To J.E. Brunelle:  you write:  “...Gail has used all the gifts of the Spirit to penetrate through an adamant mind that is, I would almost say evil-spirited in its self-assurance. She refuses to respond barb for barb, but in a loving, humorous way, gives fully orthodox Catholic teaching. Her counter-part(s) for most of the exchanges can’t really understand her, because they’-re not open to hear. This is the very definition of hardness of heart an evil spirit of contention . . .”

JE,  When a person is unable to support and defend faith positions taught absent of Scriptural foundation one is then on shifting sand.  For what then can a person stake his or her life on except for God’s Word?  “Thy Word is Truth.”  Whether coming from a Catholic Priest, Protestant Minister or Jewish Rabbi, Spiritual discernment is a gift given to all Believers —as St. Paul points out.  If we believe in the inerrancy of Paul’s letters, discernment, thus, does not wrest only in the hands of those cloistered in the Vatican.  Discernment enables the Believer to contrast opinion cloaked as doctrine against the truth of God’s eternal Word.  If we agree that God’s Word is the ultimate measuring instrument in our lives, that is not private interpretation.  On the other hand, doctrine formulated and taught based only upon opinion is . . . opinion.  Opinion-based teaching is not a requirement of faith in Christ and is thus private interpretation.  Isn’t this exactly what hyper-Catholics constantly accuse Protestants of doing?
of doing.

To J. E. Brunelle: Thank you for your gracious and encouraging words.
God bless.

Dear ‘Cradle’, You said: “When a person is unable to support and defend faith positions taught absent of Scriptural foundation, one is then on shifting sand.  For what then can a person stake his or her life on except for God’s Word?  ‘Thy Word is Truth.’” I agree with you. That is very true. And yet, you overlook the fact that the words do not explain themselves. They can’t, and so they are frequently misunderstood by those who rely on their own judgement as to their mening. That is the essense of the Protestant position. Each person is aledged to be able by the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the scriptures in his/her own way. The Catholic position is that Jesus gave us a faithful and authentic interpreter of the Scriptures, the Church. To Peter as the Kepha - Rock - He gave “all authority in heaven and on earth…to bind and to loose”, etc. Cf. Matt. 25. The Church is the authentic interpreter of the Scriptures, not the individual. The Scriptures are the infallible Word of God; but they need to be properly understood. The wreckage from the Protestant ‘Reformation’ can be seen everywhere, in the thousands of sects that exist, because someone has falsely explained the meaning of the Scriptures. This has happened thousands of times, and still continues to fracture the unity of Christianity - because they rely not on the authority that Jesus gave to the Church under Peter and his successors, but on their own personal authority. Surely you can see that. Someone said that getting the denominations to go in one direction with Jesus and His Church, is like herding cats. It just cain’t be done! God bless.

Dear ‘Cradle’, By the way, the meaning of the word Protestant is that the ones who led their followers away from the Church of Jesus Christ said they were ‘protesting’ the authority of the Church. They too, ignored Jesus’ choice of Peter as the Rock foundation, against which the gates of hell “would never prevail”.  They can never prevail against the Gates of Heaven, to which Peter was given the Keys. That’s where sll those cartoons come from, that show “St. Peter at the Pearly Gates”. that are often silly; but they are based on the truth which is clearly stated in the words of Jesus by St. Matthew: “And to you, Kepha, I give the keys to the kingdom of heaven. What you loose… will be loosed; what you bind… will be held bound”. These are the words of the Bible; and are they not very clear? God bless you, EeeBee.

Cradle Catholic – What you seem not to have realized is that the Bible is a sub-set of the whole of God’s Word which will continue to be given and go forth for ever – He is eternal and will continue to rule and be God forever. That is, He continues to speak in Heaven and on earth. He has not been and was not struck dumb before or after after the New Testament accounts were written. Consider even this: ‘Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.’  [NKJ] The way you carry on, one would think that only the things He said that are recorded in the Bible, are valid. What a superficial, undiscerning and rediculous view!

Cradle Catholic - By the way, the first Christians didn’t quote chapter and verse either, but many of them died for the Faith under very challenging circumstances, to say the least. A child of God listens to His voice. Just like Joseph and Mary and many others have done whether prerecorded in chapter and verse or not. Mary did not rush off to the High Priest and say: “God said this to me. What do you think?’ Paul didn’t quote chapter and verse either. You are suffering from spiritual myopia.

Cradle Catholic: As for what it takes to be selected as useful material for the priesthood, I suggest you try for selection and then you can give us a full report on the criteria being used currently. But do remember that it is only God Who reads the soul. God is the only Judge; therefore we are taught not to judge others because we will be judged according to that very standard. refer: ‘You hippocrite!  .....etc.’ We are all God’s work in progress. In any case, do not judge till the artist pronounces that the work is complete!

Gail Ramplen- You wrote: “What you seem not to have realized is that the Bible is a sub-set of the whole of God’s Word which will continue to be given and go forth for ever ... He continues to speak in Heaven and on earth. He has not been and was not struck dumb before or after after the New Testament accounts were written.”

What you have written is how the Mormon and Christian Science Religions came about.  For that matter, Islam too.  They all claim that God and His prophets or angels, spoke with their founders.

While God can and does continue to speak today, He is the same yesterday, today and forever, and what He says today does not differ from what He said before, and that the early church recorded in Scripture.  It ALL has to be consistent, or it is “some new doctrine”.

Mormon, Christian Science, Islam and many Roman Catholic claims from the Middle Ages to now is “some new doctrine.”  We are never to judge anyone, but we ARE called upon to DISCERN good from bad, and that applies to people and ideas.  We are called upon to look at the FRUIT.

It’s not just a wise idea to discern people and ideas, but we are commanded to do that.  The only way to be discerning, is to KNOW GOD"S WORD.  The Bible is not a “sub-set” of anything - it is merely the Written Word of God, and there for our benefit.  Not each word was written TO us, but the entire Bible is written FOR us.  Why do my fellow Catholics have such an aversion to the Word of God, putting everything over it?

EeeBee:  You wrote:  “Someone said that getting the denominations to go in one direction with Jesus and His Church, is like herding cats.

Probably, you are correct.  In the interest of Christian unity, there is so very much that Catholics and Evangelicals agree about in the core tenants of the faith.  For example, The Trinity, the virgin birth, the cross, the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus, the necessity of His shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins, salvation through Christ alone, etc.  I say Catholic and Evangelicals —I do not include all Protestants (by denomination) since not all accept nor teach the Bible is inerrant such as Espiscopalians who allow women pastors and even perform gay marriages.  Truly, Catholics have more in common with Evangelicals.  For both to come together in unity, there is far more to be in agreement concerning rather than to fight against.  Often, these blog posts are filled with words typifying some huge separation when absolute faith in Christ is our bond.  The differences regarding authority, apostolic succession,  Maryology, papal leadership, certain areas of interpretation are surely issues which divide.  IMO, however, these are less of an issue than are our commom bond “in Christ.”  I am disappointed that Catholics often hold the differences as equally (if not more important) than those faith tenants which unite us.  The differences are not salvation dependent,—but the areas of agreement are.  Frankly, I would like to see local Evangelical and Catholic pastors and bishops become more engaged in dialog rather than ignoring and prentending each other’s church down the street does not exist.  It only takes one pastor to extend his hand in Christian brotherhood.

Dear ‘Cradle Catholic’,You have my sympathy and my prayers, because you seem to be stuck in a box of your own making. You seem to think the Bible and God are the same. But God is much more than the Bible. God expresses Himself in many ways; and the Church has always taught that there are more than one sourch of Revelation, of which the written Word is one. Just as revealing and essential for the proper understanding of Scripture is Sacred Tradition.* If you don’t understand this, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As Gail said so well, God has many ways of revealing Himself tu us. He is not limited to the written word, but also speaks to us through His Church to which He gave His own authority, as I mentioned before, through Peter (Kepha). The Catechism (CCC) is the authentic summary of the Catholic faith. The refersnces below express what that is.
*Tradition, 81
apostolic, 75-79
deposit of faith contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, 84, 97
of faith and prayer, 2651 (see also Prayer)
liturgy as a constitutive element of, 1124
one and the same content of, 174
oral tradition in the formation of the Gospels, 126
and Sacred Scripture, 80-83, 95, 97, 113, 120
The Holy Spirit works through the Church.
God bless you, EeeBee

To EeeBee who wrote, “You seem to think the Bible and God are the same. “

Cradle’s response:
Yes, you are correct.  I believe the Holy Spirit, God -the Third member of the Holy Trinity, is The Author of the Bible, and every word in the Bible is to be used *in its context* for teaching, correcting & reproofing all members of the universal catholic Church.

Dear New Observer, Thank you for your observations. Have you ever heard of ‘Ninaveh’s Crossing’? They have a very good DVD on What Catholic and Protestants believe - a dialogue between a Catholic priest and Protestant minister, who are good friends.God bless, EeeBee

EeeBee,
No, I have not heard of Ninaveh’s Crossing.  Do you mean Nineveh (as in Jonah from the OT?  Is this a type of modern parallel?  I shall be glad to look into this DVD you mention.  Thanks for the reference.

re: ‘They all claim that God and His prophets or angels, spoke with their founders’. 
Gail’s reply: And the fruit was rebellion and separation from the one to whom Jesus gave authority on earth – the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven! Judge the fruit! In the same way, judge the fruit of discernment.
re: ‘It ALL has to be consistent, or it is “some new doctrine”.’ What is inconsistent with the Bible in honouring God’s Mother? It does have to be consistent. Absolutely.
re: ‘Why do my fellow Catholics have such an aversion to the Word of God, putting everything over it?’ Some Christians are slow, some pre-occupied, some uncatechized, some arrogant, some lazy, lacking this particular grace for a time and according to their life’s development.’  “All the world’s a stage ………. they have their exits and their entrances’. God has a plan for each of us.
re: ”I am disappointed that Catholics often hold the differences as equally (if not more important) than those faith tenants which unite us.  The differences are not salvation dependent,—but the areas of agreement are.
Gail’s reply: That is clearly opinion. My opinion is that the Bible is hearsay too. God say, and people hear. Problem is: people don’t do. My opinion is this: Christianity is about following Christ and obeying God as proclaimed by Jesus Christ. It is not about uptrading or downtrading God’s truths in order to achieve earthly peace. Jesus said: ‘Mat 10:35 Mat 10:35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

Gail’s reply: That is clearly opinion. My opinion is that the Bible is hearsay too. God say, and people hear. Problem is: people don’t do. My opinion is this: Christianity is about following Christ and obeying God as proclaimed by Jesus Christ. It is not about uptrading or downtrading God’s truths in order to achieve earthly peace. Jesus said: ‘Mat 10:35 Mat 10:35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

Gail, do you realize what you just wrote?  You quoted Scripture while also telling everyone “My opinion is that the Bible is hearsay too.”  Thus, your own logic is convoluted.

btw, not every father/son, mother/daughter, et al in-law are set against each other IF —if Christ is first and above all things (including familial relationships) in your life.  One must be sold out to Him above all else.

Surely you didn’t mean to say the Bible is hearsay, Gail.  That must have come out wrong, in the writing.

The Bible is, even according to the Roman Catholic Church, “God-breathed” and without error.  God is infallible, and cannot make a mistake.  As every word of the Bible is there for a reason, intended by God, then we can take each Word to the bank, knowing it’s true.

If God can’t watch over His own Word, keeping it from contamination, how could He watch over the Book of Life, that has the names of all believers in it, and that will ensure our entrance to Heaven?

God is God- and sooooo much more above us, in everything.  He is able.  We are not.  There is no more additions to the Bible, the Deposit of Faith for Christians, and there is no subtractions.  Anything that differs from Bible truth is “some new doctrine”.

What is fallible is MEN, even men in the Vatican, just look at church history - and what errs is MEN, even men in the Vatican. 

What is infallible is God and His Word, and what is inerrant is God, and His Word.  Amen and amen!  Praise Jesus!  Bless you, Father, praise you Son, thanks for the Spirit, three in One!

Cradle Catholic I can see that you are not quick on the uptake. I said: God say and People hear. Get it? Hear-say.