The devil and evil spirits are the voices of mental illness which medication don’t help. One don’t need to be possessed to have demons around messing with people. the demons may stop the water flow of pipes to get one to belive there is a plumbing problem. demons may say stuff around the radio or tv to get one that people are talking about them on the radio or tv. a demom may say one is hearing voices. like if you hear us you hear voices.

For centuries exorcists have been casting out demons. A couple of thousand years ago illness and disease were attributed to sin. At the time there were exorcists aplenty. The cure for disease was casting out a demon;  the treatment was to go and sin no more.
Of the numerous times I was hospitalized, never was an exorcist called upon.  In fact of all the other patients hospitalized, no exorcist was summoned for them either. It is appalling with the current knowledge afforded us by scientific progress such thinking regarding the need for exorcism can be seen other than a mess of irrational thoughts. Even worse is the article condemns the occult, when it own resolute considerations are deeply embedded in myth and superstition.

This things are very clear to people today. The only thing i want share is , “let every parish in the whole world as much as possible to start going out on Rosary procession with the priest leading, candle in our hands, move around the cities. I may not be explicable here but if i am contacted, i will shade more light on this proposa”. Finally, with this, the world of antichrist will be tamed to some extent. THANKS.

Isn’t Fr. Gary disturbed about the “newRite of Ordinations and Consecrations” that does not include the anointing to do exorcisms!?

The second post in the combox( Boston College grad) shows the lack of
proper catechesis going on in most of our so-called Catholic schools
and universities. Did you ever take a class there from Peter Kreeft, well known Catholic professor of philosophy? He would certainly informed you
that sin, the devil are real ( not the pitchfork variety of cartoons) and
reminded you that Jesus referred to him as the prince of this world! The favorite trick of the devil is to convince you he does not exist!
Yes, we have learned much about the nature of disease, especially infectious diseases. Sin is what brought all disease into the world and
created the disorder behind it through the temptations of the devil. That there are illnesses of the mind does not mean sin, the devil and evil in those forms do not exist. You need a good refresher course or at least go
and find what you can online that Peter Kreeft has written on these subjects.

Today’s Catholic clergy believes that Satan and his demons actually exists. Who knew?

Hi Jesuitical graduate of Boston College….
You have a lot of education, but no experience. Have you ever taken part in any exorcisms or seen one? Probably not. Coming from a land of Occult and new age (India) I have seen a lot of exorcism in from of my eyes.
Not all issues man face today can be remedied by medicine.
For one instance i was talking to a lady (Hindu) with a 7 year old came to see a holy priest (also an exorcist). The boy looked perfectly normal when he talked with me. They were coming to see this priest for the first time. On seeing the priest from a distance the boy started becoming strange. he started speaking like a man..(keeping long story short)..But with the grace of god. he was relieved of that spirit. I was not able to sleep that day…I am also well educated, did not believe in any of these until a numerous incidents and accounts by others. I have heard of testimonies/healings after confessions and retreats .... These might seems to be so strange for Americans who are sinking down a in culture full of technology and advancement.

jesuitical: what exactly are you saying?..that you do not believe in demonic possession?...outdated superstitions of the Catholic Church?..that “intellectual jesuit education” looks to me like you need a refund for the lost of your faith.

“...When the case was reopened in 2003, the hospital chaplain — Father Gerald Robinson — was charged with her murder, and evidence of a cult of ritualistic satanic abuse was uncovered. ...” I’d be interested to know what satanic abuse was directly linked to Fr. Robinson, who is appealing his conviction. The appeal claims he wouldn’t have been convited if the jury knew that (a) Sister Pahl’s murder was very similar to the murders of dozens of other (albeit younger) women by a convicted serial killer who (b) was in the general area and (c) fit the description of a man witnesses reported seeing in the hospital immediately prior to the murder. By the way, I’d never heard of this case before reading this article.

Wow, the post by the “Jesuitical graduate of Boston College” really shows how far the Jesuits and Boston College have fallen. We need more holy priests trained and annointed for exorcisims. These days are very dark and will get much darker before this fight is over.

Re: Posted by Jesuitical graduate of Boston College
There is a big difference between worshipping Satan and worshiping God! The Catholic Church condemns the Occult because Satan is a real individual, who has chosen complete evil, (they don’t think he is a myth) and if you bother to study the sufferings of those who are truly possessed you would see that is something to be devoutly avoided (any association with the devil through possession). Even sin is a suffering God tries to help us avoid by giving us the 10 commandments. I can assure you I have a deep and loving relationship with God, who is Love. It is not myth and not superstition. I do not know Him just with my mind but with my heart. Think of someone you love in your life. Have you ever known what that person was thinking before they spoke. That is what the relationship with God is like for the Catholic Christian, who has devoutly studied the saints, Scripture and received the sacraments regularly. The Catholic Christian knows who they are—a child of God. They are confident and unafraid.  Like Mary when she was invited to become the Mother of God. She responded: “I am the handmaid of the Lord! Be it done to me according to your word.” Mary knew who she was. She was God’s servant, and given who she was she immediately recognized His will and said, “Yes!” If you bother to study the other religions of the world, you would see what a radical difference there is in Christianity. It is a complete revolution from the superstitious religions of the world. We are the only ones who worship a God who is Father. Muslims see him as an irrational master. Hindus think he will reward them by turning them into cows and then into nothingness. Japanese Shintos worship 886 gods. That is superstition. Knowing and loving the One True God is living in reality. It makes for much better mental health especially accompanied by regular confession! These exorcists are not curing disease. They are trying to help a suffering individual who is being afflicted by an angel who has chosen to do evil. It is a great spiritual work of mercy, a great act of charity. There were a group of Baptist women who were playing with a Ouija Board, and were thrilled when the thing answered their questions. But once they put the board away the evil spirit they called to them did not leave. This is very disturbing if you ever have this happen. So they went to a Catholic priest and asked for his help. He asked them why they didn’t got to their Baptist minister, and they said, “Because you are a Catholic priest. Isn’t this what YOU do?” So he took them into the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and had them ask forgiveness for their sin of superstition. They did. Then he gave them holy water (water blessed by a Catholic priest, who has been made another Christ by ordination) and told them to bless their house with it. The demon left.  Man, that is charity. But some priests have the charism of healing as well, and if you are sick it is good to go to confession regularly. If you are Catholic receive the Sacrament of the Sick, which will strengthen you in your illness or heal you. And you can seek a priest with this special gift to lay hands on you. As St. James said when one is sick, call the priests and have them lay hands on you. While this refers to the Sacrament of the Sick, they are also the best people to lay hands on you in a non-sacramental setting. They are not driving out demons when you are ill, and not possessed, they are praying to God for your healing, a great act of charity.  Mohammed never claimed to have any gifts of healing. His was a natural tribal religion, and really he never knew if he would go to heaven or not, which is also a very sad and insecure state. He felt people who were ill were being punished by Allah. And so he showed no compassion for the sick. Ideas have consequences. People suffer because of their beliefs. Hindus leave the lower caste people to die in the streets but they treat their cows like beloved children. Ideas have consequences. The consequences of superstition like that of Mohammed or the Hindus is much human suffering. But I know people cured of an illness after a Catholic priests laid hands on them. I hope you will continue to seek healing in your life. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Elisabeth, thank you for writing about this topic.  I’ve been trying to spread the information to warn fellow Catholics of the dangers of doing YOGA and other related occult activities such as participation in the Satanic Halloween practices, etc.  Please do research about this, so that you are aware of how all those practices go against the teachings of Christ and His Holy Church.  Here are some links to support this:
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/new-age/NA1W0202.pdf

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/yoga.htm

and the Vatican document on such things (New Age and Eastern Philosophies)
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

The Love One Another Catholic Magazine often discusses problems of the occult and New Age ... and is worth reading:
http://www.loamagazine.org/nr/contents/contents_loa23.html

Thank you for bringing attention to this, as many Catholics practice Yoga like it is just any other form of exercise, not realizing the horrible dangers that these practices bring and exposing the young children to this as well (even in Catholic parish schools).  This is indeed very sad and very disturbing as it undermines the work of Christ and His Church and makes Our Blessed Mother cry.  AWAKE, O SLEEPER!

TO JESUS THROUGH MARY - http://www.fromoceantoocean.org
+AMDG

“He has alerted his fellow priests to this danger — and trained his extraordinary ministers of holy Communion so that they note whether people receiving Communion are actually consuming it, not simply transporting it elsewhere for obscene purposes.”

One more reason to have just the priest distribute Communion (i.e., the Extraordinary Form).

““The reality is the devil is more active now,” he said simply.”
Exactly. The devil is omnipresent in popular culture, in the widespread support for abortion, homosexuality and euthanasia, in public education system, even in the Church. Ubique daemon! And those who think that such observations are “medieval” may wake up one day only to find out that the Old Scratch has gone medieval on their body and soul…

Sometimes priests are quick to excuse demonic possesion, calling it mental illness. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t. Christ spoke of the devil as roaming the world seeking whom he may devour. By what scripture says, the fact that there are actual Angels of darkness all around us is a fact. They especialy seek to tempt us to offend God, in order that we end up in that eternal diabolical possesion call hell. Likewise God’s Angels from heaven also surround us, inspiring us to do good and not evil. I attended a Traditional Chapel where the priest once a month said the Leonine Prayers of excorcism over all in attendance. This was a great consolation for all in attendance. It is my hope that every priest do this in his parish. At one time prayers of excorcism were common in liturgical prayers, at Baptism, the Blessing of Holy Water with the use of exersized salt ect… After Vatican Council ll, many took it upon themselves to excuse the influence of evil, the end result as anyone can see is an increase in men/woman performing more evil actions than ever before in the history of the world. The Holy Father Benedict XVl ordered every Diocese in the world to have a team of priest excorcists. In my Diocese the Bishop and all Diocesan priests held a 3 day meeting on this. The decision was unaminous, there is no such thing as diobolical possesion, its all mental illness, so the Pope was overuled, a team of exorcists was not needed. And yet there have been priests who with permission from the Bishop have actualy performed excorcisms in our Diocese. Some say, maybe our priests are the ones who need an excorcism the most.

@Jesuitical grad. And I sincerely hope you never have an opportunity/experience to change your opinion as such.  As I do for everyone else who would agree with you. :)

With regards to stealing of the Blessed Sacrament, this is why we need to ban communion in the hand.

I strongly suggest everyone read Gabriele Amorth’s, exorcist for the Diocese of Rome, two volume memoirs.  Possession is very rare, because God is His mercy knows that otherwise we souls would not have a chance of even a modicum of independence while moving through this wayfaring state.  Oppression, obsession and infestation are ultra-common.  It is merely a case of degree.  St. Pio, whose feast day was yesterday, told us that if we could see the demons “they would blot out the sun”.  But the people who say the feeding of the 5000 men was a “miracle of sharing” will not accept the ubiquity and potency of demons.

I found out in my early twenties that if you ask Satan to come - he will.  Petrifying.

Angelo, which Diocese or Bishop claimed that “there is no such thing as diobolical possesion?

As I participate in a healing and deliverance ministry associated with our diocese in St Louis, I believe more attention needs to be paid to demonic harassment, demonic temptations and the like. Our retired Bishop, Bob Herman, for example, will often teach people to do self deliverance themselves if it is a spirit of lust or anger, for example.  People can be freed in lessor ways than just when a major exorcism is called for. Of course, we should all meditate on the Crucified Christ and pray to St. Michael, go to confession and receive the Eucharist often,  for relief from the attacks of evil, as well as to more importantly deepen our spiritual lives.

If any of you—especially Jesuitical graduate of Boston College—- have the time and/or inclination, I suggest you read Vatican insider Malachi Martin’s novel ‘Windswept House’ on Satanism in the Catholic Church and then his non-fiction book on demonic possession entitled ‘Hostage to the Devil.’

And St Pio once said to a man who said he did not believe in hell “You will when you get there!” And will those who don’t belive in demons believe when the demons come at their death, if they obstinantly refuse obediance of faith, to drag them to hell? Will they believe then? Let us pray, as I understand, that belief in angels and demons are articles of the faith, as we say in the creed, “creator of the visible and of the invisible.” which refers to all entities both physical and spiritual, save God alone, who is uncreated. as for us, let us pray for us and them that we will be ready to meet God and His holy angels and saints who were obedient to God, as all sodiers of Christ should pray for the grace to be!

How about stopping communion in the hand, which alone is blasphemous, and stop anyone other than a priest from giving communion.
Just a thought from a very devout Catholic.

Thanks for a great dialogue, and an important discussion. Exorcism is often over-stated or under-stated. Much of what has been said here is good and stimulating. May I add that I once attended a music seminar, with open doors to the public , one Friday nite, for a praise and worship event. The worship brought many of us to raise our hands in adoration unto God. While I was lifting my hands up, the hairs on my neck stood straight out and instinctively I knew to turn around and see what caused it.  Immediately, I locked eyes with a man 8 rows back and he did the same. His hands were also raised up, but he was not worshiping God, but satan. I can’t tell you why I knew that, but as I stared him down, he knew he had been discovered and shortly there after left the Church where this service was being conducted.

I agree that many who think they need an exorcism, actually need to come 1st to confession, repentance and renouce the sin that has gained a strong interferrance in their lives. This I know, because I have frequently come this route of repentance, and will the rest of my life, for the Lord saw fit to have mercy on me and helped deliver me out of a Gay life style. Coming to Jesus on His Cross is the reason I can celebrate His goodness to me. Thank God for the writings of Leanne Payne, who has ministered to many like myself, esp. through her writings. Yes, I have seen folks delivered through exorcisms, for the dominate sin of the gay heart has it’s roots up in the Baal / Astoreth formats. !!

Bringing a soul to Christ is the most special thing anyone can do. Helping a soul admit, confess, repent and renouce the sin that has locked them into tough behaviors, is often an art form. To those who say I am not “tolerant” of gay people, will have nothing to say to God, when after affirming a sinful behavior that preserves them unto woe, .... the blood of that soul may be on their own heads, especially since they know better. It is most cruel to not make the distinction between good and evil. Paul states that we cannot come to the Lord’s table after we have been to the table of devils (Baal)  Yes, some need exorcism, and that will increase, seeing the day we live in, BUT GOD is faithful to rescue those who cry out to Him. Go God Go !  I want to be seated with Christ, without spot or wrinkle, in Heavenly places. Lord have mercy on me !

Possession exists. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I knew it before I was ever a Christian. It’s notably different from any common mental illness and has nothing to do with grand mal seizures. Exorcism should never be undertaken lightly because it requires lengthy follow-up care, to which the patient must (after being exorcised) consent freely. There are charlatans who fake it, just as there are charlatans who fake diets and vaccinations, but there are still such events as real, successful diets and vaccinations. There were misdiagnosed possession cases a thousand years ago, just as there were misdiagnosed plague cases; it was harder to test things then, because of smaller sample sizes and primitive medical equipment.

If you are struggling with demonic affliction, please begin to say the prayers from Auxilium Christianorum, an intercessory group for lay people and priests www (dot) AuxiliumChristianorum (dot) com

Also, look up Fr. Yozefu’s book, at www (dot) healingoffamilies (dot) com

It may also be helpful if generational spirits are involved to have a series of 12 masses said: 3 for the maternal and paternal lines of both your mother and father’s ancestral lines.(3 for each)

Above all, say the rosary every day, consecrate yourself to Our Lady and live a sacramental life.

God bless you

Ela,
Thank you so much for posting the links.  I often get into conversations with people about the dangers of yoga, and it’s met with looks of absolute disbelief!  (They think I am exaggerating.)  I usually follow up with an article, and now I have a few more in my “arsenal.”  :)

The exorcist looks for three or more signs that the demons are present before begining an exorcism.  One the person being prayed over will exihbit the knowledge of a language unknown.  The priest can be praying in Latin and demanding the demon answer, when the person suddenly answers in Latin.  Also, the demons will be have supernatural knowledge of things that the person wont.  Most Exorcists will have a hidden relic on them and ask the demon to identify it using Latin, the demon will then be able to tell them what kind of relic, what saint it is, and something about the saint.  Also, you see signs of supernatural strengh in alot of cases, where many people are needed to help control them.  In rarer cases you see paranormal things such as levitation, contortions that look normally impossible.

The scariest news that a lot of people don’t know is that “Holloween” is the most celebrated holiday event of the year.  My own boss at work looks forward to Holloween that she and her husband attend or give a party at their home.  There’s all kinds of wickedness going on before the great fall, it’s happened throughout history and history does repeat itself.  One would think that the human race would learn from past mistakes made by humans, not!

Dear Jesuit Grad: Based on your post - when you die, and your body corrupts, your soul dies, for there is nothing thereafter - you are doomed. Or, if you soul says, it is without free will - a bot, vegiteable - your are doomed. Or maybe you think your soul will remain and have free will??? Then with free will comes right to love or to reject love. Rejection of Love is rejection of God. That implies there is evil. So if there is evil, but you reject sin then you have a problem - Christ hasn’t died for you. Well, He did, but it is you who need to open the door, but if you reject to believe that there is someone knocking, then you won’t open the door - you are doomed. Or maybe you believe there is Jesus Christ. But then why would you want to know Him if you is a liar. Yes, He is - you stated it. For He is warning you, this Sweet Jesus, more than everyone else altogether in the Old Testament about hell and the one who can not only destroy your body but also destroy your soul. That is why Jesus came to die - to die for your sins in which you become a child of the evil one. Unless, of course, you stick to the idea that Jesus is a liar and what He said is simply “deeply embedded in myth and superstition.”
<<<Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.[...]” (John 6:67-68)>>> - Dear grad - they did not understand first. They believed first, and that lead them to understand. Believe, and you shall receive. You don’t , you won’t. It’s up to you. You have a free will. And that is an amazing gift. You and I can believe in our bs, you can I live for our bs, and you and I can die for our bs. But I refuse to do that. I desire to know the Truth. Will you join me?

Dear Mary. Re “we need to ban communion in the hand” - There is no ‘technical’ solution for the problem. Christ did not die on the Cross because He did not know how to avoid being arrested. He gave up Himself for you and me. Completely. And He knew these problems will be now too! I desire to have the Host being offered only on the tongue and having people receiving Him only on the knees, and I think we have to have it back to bring back reverence for His Body and Blood. Now, it will NOT solve the problem of satantist coming to take communions for their rituals. They were doing it before, when the communion was received only on the tongue too. They were taking undissolved Host from their mouth and taking Him to their places. Yes, we have to defend His Body with our bodies, although you will not be able to completely do it if He does not do it. Please. look at the Cross, at the Way of the Cross, ponder the mysteries of the Rosary (I am sure you do all of that already!) and now think about Him waiting for you, and for these satanists every day, hoping, that you I finally recognize Him for Who He is, and show our Love, Passion, and Desire for Being with Him, so these satanists can find in you and me something they cannot and will not find anywhere except in Jesus. God Loves You.

Sadly, some of the New Age teachings, those of “energy healing” [aka Reiki or “Healing Touch”] are being peddled in the Catholic Church. Under the false claim of that this follows the guidelines of the Vatican Document “Instruction on Prayers for Healing” issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (9/14/2000) and written by Cardnal Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict XVI is incredible.

First, those making the claim have not seriously considered the Vatican document, Jesus Christ, Bearer of the Water of Life and USCCB guidnace on Reiki.

Second, to do “Reiki” or “Healing touch” one has to go through training, something they normally have to pay for. After this, in the case of Reiki, the “healer” pulls energy from “universal energy” and in “healing touch” the “healer” uses their own energy to “cure” the afflicted. The Acts of the Apostles clearly labeled this as the Sin of Simony.

Third, unlike the saints, who would intercede on behalf of the ill person to God, new age energy healers in the Church label theri healings as “prayers to God.” If they are correct, then ANYONE should be able to do the same thing, without “special training.” Of Course, if challenged, they will tell you taht you can not do what they do. This is a red flag.

Don’t fall for this new age deception.

Another resource is the Catholic Answers radio archives on New Age.
The question on if the Church has approved “energy healing” was addressed midway (29 minutes) into the May 21st show.

http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/the-new-age-deception-7123

Jesuits indeed! I thought they had cleaned up their act since the bad old days of the 1960s, when they were in virtual open revolt against Rome—apparently not, if Jesuitical grad’s comments are any indication of what’s being taught in Jesuits seminaries these days.

I graduated from Gonzaga High School, in Washington, D.C., in 1968, perhaps the peak year of the 1960s spiritual and cultural “renaissance” in the United States. Out of a graduating class of about 180 young men, not one single vocation, neither to the priesthood or any lesser religious calling, could be found among these disaffected young men. Worse, however, is that most of them had already left or soon would leave the Church of their baptism, and I doubt that many have returned, thanks to the long-lasting damage done by the gentle ministrations of their Jesuit teachers. I was among them, and didn’t return to the Faith until I married for the first time at age 45 and was led back to the Church by my wife, a convert.

It appears that the haughty, worldly intellectualism that has characterized the Jesuits’ recent history have not abated, if Jesuitical grad is typical. A shame indeed, and many of these “esteemed” Jesuits will have much to answer for at Last Call.

the most shameful examplars

Re: Jesuitical graduate of Boston College, “Even worse is [that] the article condemns the occult….”
.
“[T]he article” is just reiterating what God has already warned us about in the Bible. Examples can be found at: http://anorthodoxcatholic.blogspot.ca/p/bible-ccc-on-new-ageoccult.html.

was posted:  “One more reason to have just the priest distribute Communion (i.e., the Extraordinary Form).”

There is nothing extraordinary about following the rubrics of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Communion in the hand has been condemned no less tha 5 times by Pontiffs.  Communion and the sacred vessels are to be handled ONLY by the priest.  The novus ordo missae has countless errors and is purposely intended to destroy Catholicism.

FATHER MALACHI MARTIN (excorcist)—read his books—especially The Jesuits
and Windswept House.
Protect yourselves and your homes with sacramentals. Pray to St. Michael every day using the original St. Michael prayer from the Moto Proprio of Pope Leo XIII, Sept. 25, 1888 available as a leaflet from the Fatima Center (www fatima org.

@Joe: “[...]The novus ordo missae has countless errors and is purposely intended to destroy Catholicism.” - Citations first or else it is simply your private statement and work of devil to divide. Please point to the official places when everyone can find these ‘5 times’, and the statement that sacred vessels are to be handled ONLY by the priest. I want not a private opinion or a statement of a descent catholic who states is a Catholic while rejecting Christ’s Church and not believing that when “Rome says, the case is closed.” I am deadly serious. I want the proof, not a statement. Thanks in advance. If you cannot find any official statement of the Church that tells what you claim then I call you to repent, come back home, and become obedient. If yo don’t want to be obedient to Christ and His Church then maybe you don’t want Him in the first place? I truly hop you do, and you are simply confused that your senses and logic is better than the Church.

Re: Pia
Wow, what a wonderful discussion. So happy to see so many thoughtful Catholics reading this blog. A good sacramental against Satan is blessed salt. Like holy water, it is ordinary salt blessed by a Catholic priest. I put it in little plastic pill bags over all the doors and windows in my house. Someone led by an evil spirit cannot enter when you have this salt over the door. I witnessed it. A Catholic friend of mine came over for dinner. She had been introduced to New Age practices by her chiropractor. So she pulled out a rock on a string in the middle of dinner and started circling it over her food to find out if she was allergic to any of the ingredients. This was a chakra. After dinner when she attempted to leave my house, she could not. She stood right in front of my front door and couldn’t see it because there was blessed salt over the door, and unknowingly she had invoked a demon when she shook her chakra! We had to lead her out by hand.
God is marvelous. What a sense of humor He has. Susan Fox P.S. take the blessed salt with you to hotels and put it over the door. You’ll sleep a lot better.

As for dealing with demonic activity I once read a book which referred to the ordinary workings of satan vs the extraordinary and the author compared it to the ordinary workings of God’s grace vs the extraordinary manifestations as some of the mystics have. If we only looked for the special ways of God’s working we would miss the ordinary ways of God’s working in our lives such as the daily faithfulness of spiritual practices and the subtle nudging of grace to do good works, consolation, holy thoughts that God will give etc. Similarly if we look only for the extremes of the demonic which God will rarely permit, we will miss the ordinary ways of the demons attacks, such as in temptations, his feeding negative thoughts, etc which can lead to demonic strongholds. The importance of this is that if a temptation or thought is demonic, it can stick as I have found and as the demons are more hidden, shrewd and stronger than we are we are wise to recognize their ways so that we can call on Divine Assistance to drive them out and we can sometimes command them to leave us in Jesus name too.  Interestingly as Jesuisitcal had posted he and us would do well to reread or to read for the first time the teachings of St Ignatius on the discernment of spirits so that we can better learn to be aware of our thoughts, consolations and our desolations so that we can more fully respond to the work of the Good Spirit in our lives and reject the evil one when he attacks. And we must remember that demons do not present with a sign saying “the demon is here” but will often present the temptations so we think, if we are not careful, that it is our own thoughts and we will unsuccessfully use only human means as our defenses when we would be better served by calling on God’s help and His grace in times of temptation.

I think humanity needs to progress past labeling other religions as evil.  I am 42, Iraq war veteran, have a graduate degree, 3 kids & 2 grandchildren… and I have been Wiccan since 1986.  No I’m not possessed or evil.

And St. Ignatius rules for Discernment of Spirits is found in his Spiritual Exercises. Incidentally, in the first week of his exercises he recommends that the retreatant meditate on Jesus Christ on the crucifix and while meditating in Christ Crucified, ask these questions “What have I done for Christ?”  “What am I doing for Christ?”  “What ought I do for Christ?” Isn’t it interesting that those who meditate on Christ crucified tend to more easily keep their spiritual priorities in balance?

Silvia, Due to the rules of this site I cannot name names. But it does not matter which Diocese or which Bishop. At one point it was 99% of all Dioceses and Bishops in the US who sabotaged the Holy Father’s order. Not much has changed. Greg, I went to Rome on a pilgrimage in 1986. Before we unboarded our plane we were instructed that Pope John Paul ll forbade Communion in the hand in the whole City of Rome. When Pope John Paul ll made his first trip to the US, he would give communion to no one in the hand. Look for that footage, the struggle between liberals and the Pope is only too obvious. On his second trip, the US Bishops practicaly ordered him to follow US custom. At one point John Paul ll asked for a report within 5 years on communion in the hand, saying, “Then I will decide whether or not the practice will continue.” Today Pope Benedict XVl has made it a rule that anyone receiving communion from him shall do so kneeling and on the tongue, whoever does not wish to comply, does not receive communion from him. just watch his Papal Masses today when he distributes communion.

@Chris: My dear man. How strange it is what you wrote in the light of today’s first reading from the Book of Proverbs (21:2): “All the ways of a man may be right in his own eyes, but it is the LORD who proves hearts.” Now, you have a perfect right given to you by God to choose Him, who is Love, or chose whatever you please. It is your choice, and we cannot judge you. We can only ask you - do you care for the Truth or do you care to be right? How do you know what you do is right or/and good? How do you know where the knowledge you use comes from? I can only tell you - I can believe in my BS, I can love for my BS, and I can die for my BS. I used to live like that. And then God granted me a grace and I don’t want my BS or anyone else’s BS. I want to know the Truth. And I have found the Truth Thanks be to God. Seek, and you will find. I promise. But, of course you can stay where you are. The choice is yours. Just, please know, that God loves you very, very much and He proved that. And He waits for your to ask Him about it. You don’t need to believe in a single word I say to you. Talk to Him. Let Him tell you that, for it is Him who desires your heart the most. Blessings.

Susan Fox…was your dinner with your friend alcohol free? 
... pass the salt please.  Salt comes from the Latin word Sal…salary. 
Long before Christ people were paid in salt, wars were fought and salt was used as a weapon to destroy crops and as a method of preserving food and cleansing.  It certainly is useful.
I am doubtful, however, that it does much good other than a placebo hanging over the door.  This intrigues me and I will certainly read up…I just might put it to the test!

Chris, hi.  May God bless you, my brother. 

I say this with kindness: life is not a resume.  At least to God.  Your age doesn’t matter.  To God you are only a child.  Your veteran status, which your countrymen will thank you for, for mundane, literally mundane, reasons, does not matter to God in the way you assume it does.  What men do here on planet Earth during the course of their lives is sometimes not what He is most impressed with.  Your degree does not matter in a certain sense.  Training the brain.  And?  So?  The brain is not the mind and neither of them is the soul, which is the only one of those three to survive death.  Your children and grandchildren are nice in the sense that new life is always an embrace of the Father’s plan for man, but having children does not simply make a man righteous before God, nor does not having children simply make a man unrighteous before God.  Whether you have been a wiccan for 26 years or 26 minutes does not matter.  A mistaken path does not become a correct one because a man has been walking upon it for a long time.  There is one path in this life that is not a dead end.  It is pushing our pride away and acknowledging what we all know, deep inside, to be true, written on our hearts: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent His only begotten Son into our fleshly world to ransom us from a debt of sin that we could not pay ourselves.  Jesus was the fulfillment of all of man’s secret and overt hopes for so long, so many prophesies.  He utterly accomplished what He came to do, opening heaven for us.  With the help of the Holy Spirit, who is the Love between the Father and the Son, each and every human soul must choose to let Christ save him, even if it is at the last moment on a death bed or as a car plunges off a cliff.  Please remember that.  Our Lord, yours and mine, will not make us do more than time allows: “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.”  Please remember.  In that small sentence one acknowledges His Lordship, says His Name, begs for His Mercy (not His just Justice, which no one can stand), and acknowledges one’s sins.

Humanity takes itself to hell every time we embrace your mistaken thought that we need to get past labeling good good and evil evil.  There is nothing wrong with objectivity.  The demon and his hordes of fallen angels are the ones selling that lie and you are parroting it.  You are most probably not possessed but in a gestalt way it is of concern that you yourself voiced that possibility.  It is rare for God to allow a demon to gain entrance to a man’s body.  For that to happen, much Grace must be destined to come out of the experience for either the man or those affected, or both.  You do not consider yourself evil, that is true.  But I submit to you that the ancient, non-pablum definition of evil is the simple lack of good, of Good, which is most accurately defined as a creature turning toward his one true Creator in acknowledgment, love and service. 

May the Most Holy Trinity bless you.  May the Blood of Christ save you.  May the prayers of the Mediatrix of All Graces avail much for you who do not understand what she can and has done for you already.

The following is wicca:

“Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror,” declares the LORD. “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.”

Please read Jeremiah.  Just read the Bible.  The Word of God is living and will change you.  You will be alright.

For myself, after having written this, I only ask my Lord and my God to have mercy upon me, a sinner.  Lord, where am I to go?  You have the words of eternal life.  You are the resurrection and the life and I am so sorry for having offended You so constantly, who are so good and so worthy of all of my love.  Lord, forgive.

GREG - Communion in the hand forbidden by Holy Mother the Church:
POPE ST. EUTYCHIAN (275-283). Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.
ST. BASIL THE GREAT, DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH (330-379). “The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in time of persecution.”
St. Basil considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.

      COUNCIL OF SARAGOSSA (380). It was decided to punish with EXCOMMUNICATION anyone who dared to continue the practice of Holy Communion in the hand. The Synod of Toledo confirmed this decree.
  POPE ST. LEO I THE GREAT (440-461). Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful.
  SYNOD OF ROUEN (650). Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against sacrilege.
  SIXTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, AT CONSTANTINOPLE (680-681). Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening the transgressors with excommunication.
  ST. THOMAS AQUINAS (1225-1274). “Out of reverence towards this sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament.” (Summa Theologica, Pars III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8)
  COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1565). “The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition.”

If I were to visit Fr. Thomas’ parish, and asked to consume the Body of Christ in his presence, I would be offended.

I am a convert from Evanglical Christianity.  While I am not one of those “Jesus and me Catholics” that must worship in private, I have respect for the people behind me, and don’t want to tie up the long Communion line that is often in the range of 400 people per Mass.  I always turn before consuming the Host & a dear friend, a Cradle Catholic, always blesses herself, as do I.

Reading this article concerns me for two reasons:
Firstly, it should not be the responsibility of a priest (or any other Eucharistic minister, for that matter) to stand guard over the Body of Christ.  Jesus can take care of Himself, He is grown up now, and King of the Universe.  He does not need a bodyguard.  If He wanted help, He’d call for Michael the Archangel.

Secondly, how many demon-possessed people are coming to Mass on Sunday?  I have never seen even one person I’d consider suspect.

This priest seems like he is afraid of his own shadow, and causing others (impressionable tongue-speakers) to do the same thing.  Why can’t our priests just preach the Gospel?  The Year of Faith is coming and Faith comes by “hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”

If anyone has an issue with the demonic - we have Ephesians Chapter 6, the Armour of the Holy Spirit to utilize.  That’s in the Bible, a place I notice that my fellow Catholics rarely consider.

PIA, the St. Michael’s prayer was never part of the novus ordo missae.

@espe Real quick. Halloween, “All Hallows’ Eve”, ie the eve of All Saints’ Day, is a day dedicated to mocking the forces of evil and to show their impotence. Or at least that is how it was in the Church before the pop culture hijacked it. Don’t hate on the holiday because others abuse it—we’re not going to stop celebrating Christmas because of its commercialization, right?
@Greg if Joe is the same Joe I debated back at the beginning of the summer, then know that he’s a committed sedevacantist.

Father Art Najera is really fantastic!

We are greatly blessed to have him here in Goleta, CA for a short time!

Persevere Father ....FORTIS IN FIDE!

Not all Jesuits schooled graduates think like that! I graduated from Loyola Schools in the Philippines and we were certainlyt taught about the realities of our faith. We had 12 units of required Theology classes. I wouldn’t say there a lot of priesthood vocations. But three valedictorians in a row and a few friends are considering the priesthood.  In fact, one of our priests. Fr. Gorospe SJ was an exorcist.

Parents have a great responsibility to teach their children about their heritage of Jesus Christ, especially when they go in search of God and find the alternatives in the occult. Christians also have that responsibility for sharing their faith with their brothers and sisters, to lead them to Jesus Christ.  The belief that the devil doesn’t exist has been around for a while, a tactic used by the devil to bring enlightened ones to his campground. The devil does exist, and on the authority of Jesus, we know that to be true.  Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Light, to deny that is already handing your soul to the devil. Possession does exist, and it isn’t a fairy tale. New age practices do bring a soul with an encounter with the evil one, everyone has a responsibility here to help our fellow man to know the danger. Jesus save your people, have mercy on all of us.

Terah, all that the priest is asking is that you place the Eucharist in your mouth before turning and moving on. Who is saying that those who may come to mass simply to get a Eucharistic host to desecrate in the future are demon possessed? You do not have to be possessed to hate, although that may be a possible explanation for all the hate in this world.

Your comment that Jesus can take care of himself, he’s ‘all grown up now’, is rather disrespectful. The point is that OUr LOrd is fully present in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity and the Eucharistic species needs to be treated with reverence and respect.

Prior to the myriad readings of this blog, no credence was given by me to the existence of demons, any transcendental spirits, or an immaterial being having an impact on the material world. Now I realize the ‘devil’ is in the replies.

Jesuitical we tell of realities we have either experienced or believe to be true. As I told my wife today, in regard to another person, if we are interested in seeking truth we must be opened to where it may lead. And the spiritual realm is just as real as the physical realm and evidence for this is to be found in the testimonies of those who have had near death experiences, the experiences of the saints such as St Pio who have seen visions of God, angels, demons and even visions of hell as have the children of Fatima. These strands of evidence support the teachings and the doctrines of our faith. your last comment about the “devil is in the replies” tells me that there is a certain obstinancy in your responses and I will pray that God will give you light and grace and create in you a true desire to seek truth wherever it may lead.
As for Brad I would recommend reading Deuteronomy Chapter 18 vs. 10-12 in the Bible,  which describes certain spiritual practices which God considers abominable and which can give evil spirits a foothold in our mind and can blind us to His Truth. And as there are various spiritual practices in Wicca which seek power and protection from spirits other than God or His angels and saints, there is danger there. I too will pray for you as I was once too lost and spiritually blind before God had mercy on me. To Jesuitical perhaps the only good I had left when I was lost, that God could work through, was that I considered myself a seeker of truth, although I was resistant to Jesus. Still when God made it clear that He loved me and had a purpose for my life I was given the grace to respond to His love and to convert from the folly of my sins and from my blindness due to drug induced mysticism and eastern religions. May God be praised for His mercy forever!

Ok BC grad….Do you believe in Saints? If so read the biography of St. Padre Pio who many times suffered “the impact” of demons on his “material” body, the sounds of and the results of which were witnessed by his fellow priests and brothers.

Michael… The salt is not ordinary table salt but salt that has been blessed by a priest using an exorcism prayer. It works.

It seems that one of the best ways to create a bulwark against the Occult and New Age is for the church to move in greater emphasis toward teaching God’s word immediately.  I am seeing way too many Catholics grow totally disenchanted with no teaching during standard 7 or 8 minute homiles only present a “nice” (God loves you message).  Even parishes which have a Bible Study are poorly attended and run by well meaning but often laity ill equipped and showcase only the work by Cavins and Hahn—who often are biblically inaccurate.  Our parish priests are too overworked to run these programs as well.  In addition, it’s time for the Catholic Charismatic movement to be tossed out.  I have attended these conventions in the past and find there is more interest by pew Catholics receiving Spiritual gifts than in the ONE who is the gift “Giver.”  They are more interested in healings than the ONE who is the “Healer.”  My take on the current state of Catholicism is that we have lost our way badly with the plethora of everything so long as it has some kind of “Catholic” name tag attached to it.  Paul has identified the Catholic church well in Revelation 2 when he describes the church at Ephesus:  “You have lost your first love.”  The centrality of Christ is being lost among all these other topics Catholicism has brought into the tent.

And it must be remembered that the devils,  being spirits with greater knowledge than us mere mortals, once they obstinently said to God, “We will not serve” their choice was locked in an eternal decision with eternal consequences, as the church teaches, but we humans with our more limited knowledge have the ability to repent of our choices, while we still live, before death, and to return to God in faith and in love. Still, our time is uncertain, so please keep an opened mind, and remain open to finding truth, lest you blind yourself to any grace and light that is given.

Personally, I strongly prefer communion on the tongue.  I also prefer it kneeling.

But how to receive Holy Communion is a prudential matter, not a doctrine or dogma.  And as such, the Church has the authority to change it.

I don’t see any way around that.

We might look more closely, also, at the quote someone gave above from the Council of Trent to support the contention that Catholics must receive communion on the tongue:

“COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1565). “The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition.”

This quote says nothing about the person receiving Holy Communion.

St. John Chysostom wrote the following to newly baptized catechumens, saying that they should extend both hands, “the left hand a throne for the right hand, which receives the King.”

Here’s an article with information about receiving Holy Communion in the hand as well:

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/commhand.htm

Question for Jesuitical grad of BC??? Do you believe in angels or the
spirit world at all? Have you ever while with the Jesuits read the Summa or anything of St Thomas Aquinas? If so, how do you justify your statements above?

A rational person can knowingly will himself to believe a proposition for which he has no evidence.  A wise man seeks the truth where the truth lies
[sic] not where he wishes to put it. In Genesis there is a talking snake, and Balaam has a talking donkey. In Hebrew Satan means adversary, and there was never a revolt. God used Satan as an adversary, blocking the way of Balaam on his talking donkey from entering the forbidding city.
There is no proof of a transcendental spirit impacting the material world.  If a transcendental spirit could impact the material world science could measure the impact. Faith in such ‘spirits’ refers to unquestioning beliefs without imperical evidence. Science differs from religion because it is the nature of science to test and retest explanations against the natural world. Belief has no part of science.
All too often the Bible is used to quote and support an affirmation already held…one quotes the hits, but not the misses e.g. the quote above Deuteronomy, yet there are other quotes in that book justifying the killing of disobedient children or the son or daughter who serve other gods.
Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.  With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck. - Thomas Jefferson. Belief in demons and any spirit is indicative of a brain that is a tangled mess of irrational thoughts.

@Jesuitical graduate of Boston College on Wednesday:  [“There is no proof of a transcendental spirit impacting the material world.  If a transcendental spirit could impact the material world science could measure the impact. Faith in such ‘spirits’ refers to unquestioning beliefs without imperical evidence.”]  Are you sure your degree isn’t from Harvard rather than BC?  The gospel is replete with Jesus speaking directly to demons and casting them out.  Also [“Belief in demons and any spirit is indicative of a brain that is a tangled mess of irrational thought’s”].  That’s quite interesting in light of Mark 1:24 where the gospel records Satan ““What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”  No doubt Jesus will be flattered to know you consider His incarnate brain a “tangled mess of irrational thoughts.”

Brad - in regards to your response to Chris:
Chris, hi.  May God bless you, my brother.
I say this with kindness: life is not a resume.  At least to God.  Your age doesn’t matter.  To God you are only a child.  Your veteran status, which your countrymen will thank you for, for mundane, literally mundane, reasons, does not matter to God in the way you assume it does.  What men do here on planet Earth during the course of their lives is sometimes not what He is most impressed with.  Your degree does not matter in a certain sense.

Wow.  Thank you for such a great response to Chris.  I disturbed me to read his comment ... and it is an illustration of what is going on in our society today.  Evil and good are being taught as parts of the same being, like a Ying-Yang type of thing ... all of that is FALSE.  It is another way to keep people away from the TRUTH, Who is Jesus Christ, Himself.

This is the result of the lack or mal-formation during the young years ... no real catechesis and no Christian religious formation that is based on God’s Word (contained in the Bible) and on the Tradition (which is contained in the Catholic Church). 

I was actually surprised that Chris would be reading NCRegister.com.  I am glad he is.  I will pray for him.

Kathy - I know that some of the links I had posted had articles about Yoga, but some of the information in them I do not fully agree with ... but that was what I could find online, there isn’t much about it coming from the USCCB or the Catholic Church ... other than Bl. John Paul II’s document on Jesus Christ, the Bearer of the Water of Life addressing the New Age problem along with that of the Eastern Philosophies.

Jesuitical - you need to study the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church ... and there are some good Bible studies out there, such as the one that Jeff Cavins has put together which can be found here:
http://biblestudyforcatholics.com
... another great one would be Dr. Scott Hahn’s books and blog:
http://www.salvationhistory.com
Another great series can be obtained from the Midwest Theological Forum:
http://www.theologicalforum.org/home.asp

Just because you wen to college and got a degree doesn’t mean you know much.  I’ve seen plenty of folks with PhDs and MDs and JDs who cannot explain simple passages in the Holy Bible and do not understand it.

Dr. Scott Hahn is doing an excellent job in helping others understand the Bible ... and so is Jeff Cavins.  Do you watch EWTN?  Maybe you should begin to do so ... and eventually, if you are going to be open to the Truth, it will set you free.  May God bless you with that longing for Truth and the wisdom to search in the right places.

+AMDG

@ Jesuitical…That was Thomas,as in Aquinas, not Jefferson,I was questioning you about. Jefferson never claimed to be Catholic as
you are doing. As for the Bible and all your objections…did you
study Scripture with the Jesuits? Surely they taught you that the
Bible is not a book but rather a whole library of books..and each
of the books represents a different literary genre which must be
considered when interpreting the content. We read the historical
books much differently than the prophetic books. For example, the
Book of Genesis which describes the beginning is from a theological
viewpoint, not a scientific treatise. After all, it was written/inspired
long before the scientific method came into usage. If you wish a scientific explanation you do not consult Genesis. I would suggest you
google Father Robert Barron’s or consult Utube for his viewpoint on
this which IS solidly Catholic. Science and religion are not in opposition
as you state nor does the Church say they are opposed. Again, Father Robert Barron affirms this in his Utube presentation titled..Misreading
Genesis. You would do well to get the real Catholic viewpoint instead of
making up one of your own.

There is evidence apart from empiricism and Scientism, which is the belief that truth can only be found by what can be seen and measured. As for as demons, we cannot see them directly but the church uses certain proofs of their activity before doing exorcisms. For example the victim will show superhuman strength, know languages they have not been taught, react to holy water but not to non blessed water, for example. And as for holy things there is this strange image on a cactus fiber in Mexico City which science is unable to explain and on a cloth made of rough cactus fiber which should have decomposed in 25-50 years, and that was in the 1500s! That image of Guadalupe is still hanging in the church there. There are types of evidence that cannot be directly measured but yer cannot be naturally explained. And the bodies of incorrupt saints as another example.  And if you say that science will someday have explanations for these things and many others, which science cannot explain, that too, my friend, is an act of faith.

To Mistical, No we didn’t drink anything alcoholic with the meal. I am diabetic and don’t serve alcohol at my house for obvious health reasons. Blessed Salt is a sacramental of the Catholic Church. Sacramentals tend to be very powerful. Read the stories of the Miraculous Medal. It’s called “Miraculous” for a reason.  Different Sacramentals have different purposes. For instance, blessed handkerchiefs are for healing because they can be used to wipe the sick person’s body, and then washed and reused on another sick person. The blessing stays while the handkerchief is intact. The practice of using handkerchiefs for this purpose is described in the Book of Acts. It says that people took aprons and handkerchiefs and touched them to St. Paul and then brought them home and used them to cure the sick and expel demons. (Acts 19:11-17) Holy Water is a great sacramental, but once it dries it’s gone. Blessed Salt is specifically used against demons. Once it’s wet though, the blessing is gone. So many Catholics mix blessed salt with rice (to keep it dry and the blessing intact) and place it over their doors in little plastic bags. I’ve seen it work many, many times. However, please do try it out and see for yourself. It’s ordinary salt but it needs to be blessed by a Catholic priest.  Frank Duff, founder of the Legion of Mary, who is under consideration for canonization wrote an article on sacramentals. The article showed me that Jesus used sacramentals. Think about the blind man he cured by taking dirt and spit and rubbing it in his eyes, and then telling him to wash in the pool of Siloam. These were all natural substances, spit, dirt, water. Jesus could have pulled a Star Wars maneuver and made lightning come out of his hands and healed the blind man that way. But He didn’t. He used simple natural substances, sacramentals. Why? Because we are human and we need something physical. Now it is common when people abandon their Catholic faith, and say join the New Age cult—they still want sacramentals, so they get feathers, crystals and dreamcatchers. I lobbied at the UN several times for the pro life cause, and one time a Buddhist woman gave me a little statue of Buddha. When I was a little girl in Southern Calif. my mother and I went to Hollywood, and there was a machine there that if you put in a quarter it would make you a little plastic Buddha. I thought that was all quite fascinating, and an okay thing to have since my Catholic mother let me have plastic Buddhas, so when the other lobbyist gave me the Buddha, I put it in my suitcase and went home. My dear Catholic husband recognized something was wrong. He unpacked my suitcase for me—something he’d never done before—as soon as I got in the door. He found the Buddha (I had unthinkingly brought home a little idol!), and calmly threw it in the trash. These little things do have meaning. Satan has his sacramentals. We met a guy once, who kept a goat’s head skull in his house, and he definitely lived a very disordered life. I have a friend who was in a New Age cult, repented and came back to her Catholic faith. She could walk into a stranger’s house and immediately recognize the objects in the house with Satanic influence. She had a very bitter experience with Satan in the New Age Cult, and God gave her that sensitivity because of her sufferings. Mistical, I do understand you were making a joke about my comments when you asked if we were drinking alcohol. I am quite happy to have supplied you with some amusement. God bless you. Susan Fox

There is no doubt to me that those replying on this blog are sincere in their beliefs. Sincerity, is not enough. Truth must be constantly sought, and is not an indoctrination. Science has not tried to bamboozle me. Religion fails in scrutiny and its believers fail in that endeavor. Science and faith, thusly, are incompatible. Religion adds nothing to science.
‘Thirst for Truth’, wonders whether I read Aquinas…not only Aquinas but Augustine, Aristotle and Plato, as well as late Middle Age and early Rennaisance authors; Dante and Milton. You are quite correct that the Bible is a compendium of many books, and many authors who are all unknown. We do not know who wrote the four canonical gospels.  At the end of the second century there were in excess of thirty gospels. The four were chosen for political reasons…they were written in fluent Greek, and the writers never were a witness to Xt. The apostles were illiterate and spoke Aramaic. No one sat down and intended to write a Bible. The Bible is a momentous work of literature, and must be read as such. It contains many inconsistencies, and those who quote it ought to realize it is a work of many men about a god…not a god writing a book. No inspiration from a transcendental spirit involved in the writings…In these blogs, many write their wishes as if they know god, and the same when they write what the devil thinks;  as if they know. Any god we know is no god at all. It is imperative to read everything, not simply an indoctrination. Learning is an art and gleaned from many readings.
Growth in knowledge and wisdom can never be attained by subscribing to non-thinking mindless obedience and acquiescence.  All must challenge to learn, no new knowledge without dissent. Sadly, the church declared itself infallible in 1870, and has since set its feet in cement…preventing any growth and discernment. Its posture is absolute; knowledge is not and a venture of growth. To remain fixed in a unchanging dogma and philosophy of Natural Law Philosophy is both anti-science and anti-intellectual. Now the church remains embedded in irrational thought fixed in its posture on contraception, same sex unions, stem cell research…it acts as if walking backwards is progress. Until the American National Academy of Science justifies a visitation, apparition, or a sun dancing and changing colors at Fatima those absurdities remain bogus…never happened.

Susan Fox, during my time as a commissioned officer in the USPHS, Division of Indian Health, in Arizona, I attended many ceremonies…Navajo healing ceremonies called Sings, attended Hopi religious ceremonies in their Kivas, and received a number of Kachina dolls.  There are many other circumstances to which I could relate…but the purpose and intent is to identify that you and others would see these ceremonies as myths and superstitions.  You fail to recognize such in your salt and other sacramentals. To each, the others religion is heretical…never ones own. What I am saying Susan Fox, your attacks on Satan, your belief in spirits, and your use of salt is nothing more than ‘magical thinking’...your beliefs differ not from the ‘occult’ which you accuse.
While on the Hopi Indian reservation, it was common for us to invite an Indian medicine man into our hospital as an integral part of the treatment team.  Never, however, was it ever considered to invite an exorcist nor was it needed. Kindly revisit and scrutinize your myths and superstitions.

Why waste time arguing with the so-called ‘Jesuitical graduate of Boston College?’

The Bible says that Faith is a gift from God; not everyone gets it.

It seems that God, in His infinite wisdom, may have left this guy out in the cold when He distributd His gift of Faith. 

So cut the Boston guy some slack. The poor soul is doing the best he can—trying to make sense of the world from a mere materalistic basis.

If he wants Science to be his god, let him. He is only limiting himself and he convinces nobody.

Jesuitical wrote: “At the end of the second century there were in excess of thirty gospels. The four were chosen for political reasons…they were written in fluent Greek, and the writers never were a witness to Xt.”

It is pretty much established historical fact at this time that the 4 Gospels chosen to be canonized where indeed written within the first 50-60 years after Christ and were indeed written by the authors attributed to them in the Bible. Whether any of these writers were illiterate, does not mean that they could not have dictated them. Matthew and John were written in Hebrew or Aramaic and Luke and Mark also were written in Greek I believe. Luke most likely was quite literate, and was a physician. All the other ‘gospels’ out there were written many, many years later and therefore were not considered to be very accurate, compared with the first four, along with the letters of St. Paul, Peter, etc.
The writers of the 4 canonized Gospels did indeed know, walk with, and learn from Jesus Christ Himself.

In your other post you ‘accuse Susan of attacking Satan’. Are you kidding me? Are you trying to say that Satan does not deserve to be attacked? Whether or not you believe in God or Satan, you must know that Satan is considered to be pure evil and a hater of humankind.

@Jesuitical graduate of Boston College: I guess then that The Cross is just a foolishness for you, and Christ is simply a liar. Besides, science meets faith in Truth. Religion is not talking about ‘how we have been created’ but ‘why we have been created’. Regardless what you think, I would like to make this statement - God Loves you more than you can imagine and regardless you want to believe in Him or not. And He will give you what you desire the most, even if this is not Him, for whom you have been created. I don’t believe in God. I know Him. I haven’t figured Him out, for I am limited and Hi is not. Without this infused knowledge I would be only this clashing gong you are now, and I used to be and do whatever I can do not to become again. I can only suggest you - please, talk to Him, and ask Him if He exists, and if He really loves you and is who He says He is. Do it in full faith, which sometimes requires bad things to happen, which brings us down to our knees, in complete understanding how foolish and hopeless we are. It happened to me, and He lifted me so high, that I can see Eternity know. I wish you can be here too. It is your choice, however, I understand that it is hard to make one when one lives in sin. I was obstinate. I’ve been there. There was nothing in there, and still I was there. I have nothing, zero, zilch idea how to get out from that place except through pleading to Him. Believe in Him. Blessings!

John Paul II said that we are living during the greatest war between good and evil the humanity ever witnessed. It seems that there are people who don’t think there is any war at all! [sic!]
In order to win a war you need three things. I list them in revere order: 3rd is to know the tool to win, 2nd is to know who is your enemy, and the 1st and most important - to know that you are in war.

My final word on the Jesuit grad before resting my case, so to speak is the story I read of an athiest motorcyclist who rode up a mountain and came down a believer in God. And why? Although this rider was no physicist, he knew some laws of physics and so when he was coming down and his brakes failed and his gears would not shift down to slow him down he was about ready to jump his bike knowing it would as it had much kinetic energy, it would soon fall off the mountain. Anyway just as he was about ready to jump his bike, which was almost ready to go over, it was suddenly held by an unseen force and slowed down to a safe stop and he later got it fixed and became a believer. His rider friend in the other bike saw this happen too.  This article was in Spirit Daily and I am sure you will say his story is not true based on your own prejudices and yet if it is true it indicates the presence of Divine intervention in the material world. At least he believed. The article should soon be posted in the Spirit Daily archives and can probablly be searched elsewhere. Anyway I do beleive that God will give us adequate reason to believe if we are truly open to the truth.

Killing, stealing, lying is bad.
Fighting with the Truth, and Love is evil.

I will say this statement now - Catholic is one who believes in what the Catholic Church teaches. If you lost your faith, if you don’t believe this is the Church Christ builds, if you don’t believe this is Body of Christ, do what Judas did during Last Supper. Leave. Please, leave, for staying in the Church you do the evil’s work. You can still tell us that we are wrong, and lost, but don’t call yourself a Catholic any more. For your sake, and the sake of Christ.

“Now the church remains embedded in irrational thought fixed in its posture on contraception, same sex unions, stem cell research…it acts as if walking backwards is progress. Until the American National Academy of Science justifies a visitation, apparition, or a sun dancing and changing colors at Fatima those absurdities remain bogus…never happened.“quoting the Jesuit grad. And Fulton Sheen once said that some who consider themselved non believers have a moral resistance the the truth becasue if they truly believed, it would cause them to accept 1 that there is a God who is active in Human affairs and 2 That this God has a right to instruct us how to live our moral lives since we are His creation.

@Jesuitical:  [“We do not know who wrote the four canonical gospels.”]  You liberals from the Northeast never fail to validate your self-centered elitism.  We KNOW who wrote the gospel of Mark.  It was John Mark—the secretary for Peter who travelled with Peter in ACTS.  No doubt your next post will discount Peter having been an “eyewitness” to the teachings and miracles of Jesus which he states in 2 Peter 1:16.  As for Peter’s own execution by the Romans, men do not go to their death over fables, myths and invented stories.

@Greg, yes, Paul does say “the Cross is foolishness to a perishing man.”  Faith (and trusting confidence) regarding matters unseen is a gift from God.  The carnal mind is not predisposed to faith.  Refer to Romans.  No amount of discussion or argument will convince a man who has no interest in the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.  This is why Jesus told His apostles to shake the dust from their feet and move on when people do not receive the Word.  John 1:12 “But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.”

Kenny, I don’t really think that God imparts Faith to some and not others. I believe it is a gift offered to all of us, some just won’t or can’t accept it. If God only gives some the gift of faith, then it isn’t anyone’s fault if they cannot believe, and I just don’t think that is the case. It goes against the whole free-will thing.

First, just as Jesus had Peter he rebuked and called satan I have often noted that on these discussion boards there can be a few who, instead of asking sincere questions tend to stir things up to keep the discussion off track and this is a risk with Jesuit grad after we have said our peace and this is not a put down as I am sure Peter was not sure he was that off base but Christ sure put him down though.

Someone mentioned charismatics and I could not find the post. I too have seen a charismatic healing group, for example, go off base and, probably due to an overfocus on healing they got involved in some new age and heretical ideas.  And the temptation to seek the gifts rather than the giver is always a real one as even saints like John of the Cross points out in our wanting spiritual consolations when God is enough.  In St Louis our diocesan pastored and approved healing and deliverance ministry is composed mostly of Charismatic Catholics. It was charismatic Catholics in the 60s and 70s, who became most aware of the involvement of evil spirits and the need to address the need for deliverance prayer, probably because, as they were more actively praising Jesus and asking for the release of the Holy Spirit in their lives the evil one was not happy and I have seen demons on several occasions manifest and show their need to be addressed and dealt with even stirred up by much praise and glorifying God.  That said, I believe that a search of Church statements on such things as charismatic renewal and Baptism of the Holy Spirit would show that our church is open to these spiritual gifts and these charisms when they are placed within the authority of the church, under obedience, and integrated in the healthy spiritual and sacramental life of Catholic believers.

@ Kenny….great advice! You cannot get blood from a stone! Not science, not theology, just good old-fashioned common sense. (although since so
few possess it I wonder why they call it *common*. Perhaps in another time or place)

Joan62 does not believe that God imparts Faith to some and not others.

Sorry, but the Bible contradicts what you believe (feel).

@Kenny:  You are correct.  Not all receive the gift of faith.  You do not find God, it is God who finds you.  You do not “choose” to have faith.  Romans 1-7 is all about how the gospel saves the sinner.

I believe, although I have no sources to quote, that the church teaches that sufficient grace is offered to all for salvation but some reject that grace and God respects our freedom. As for Jesuit grad I keep wondering what made him look here? Was he just curious, critical or is there a secret desire for truth even though his pride and his scientism is making him resist? Perhaps my wife a recent theology grad from Ave maria a good orthodox school will give me some quotes later on the salvation issue.

Faith according to the Catholic catechism is a gift from God freely given
to those who seek it. The Bible does confirm this, when Jesus tells us
that if we ask we shall receive it One has to desire faith and assent
to the revealed Truth in order to have faith.  We profess our faith in the creed and through good works affirm that belief.  If one does not
have a belief, a creed, what is there to assent to, to have faith in?
This is not God’s *fault* when one does not have faith, but rather the
folly of poor choices through the freedom of the will to choose otherwise. One will find if one seeks and prays to the Holy Spirit to
enlighten one’s mind and heart to God.

@ThirstforTruth:  [“The Bible does confirm this, when Jesus tells us
that if we ask we shall receive it. One has to desire faith and assent
to the revealed Truth in order to have faith.”]  I will assume you agree that the Lord already knows those who are predisposed to Him to accept the gift of faith.  One the other hand, the post above yours says “the church teaches that sufficient grace is offered to all for salvation.”  That idea should be rejected since there is no biblical foundation to support such teaching.  Nowhere should we imagine God uses something like a Scotts broadcaster tool (as when fertilizing a lawn) in His distribution of grace.  The gift of faith is given to those He knows in advance are willing to accept the gift.  The Lord does not waste grace on the wicked, evil or those who will reject His gift of faith.  Jesus said in John 6: 37-40;  “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. . . . No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. . . For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Yes, by Grace we are saved, through faith. God does not bless us because we are good. We are good because God is blessing us.

Most of us think that we are good, and at the same time totally blind to the destruction we do around us.

Let’s look at ‘being good’ then: If goodness were a talent, like, let’s say singing, then we could be good to anyone - good or bad to us - the same as we could sing to anyone. But that is not the case. So since we are not able to be ‘universally’ good then this virtue is a ‘transitional’ state rather than a permanent attribute (it’s my wording, and I am sorry if I am explaining it wrongly, please correct me if I am in fault.) God is asking us to love everyone - good and bad alike (He does not ask us to like people, though!) We are easily responding to His grace towards good people because we have a benefit of it - pleasure. We are very often refusing to respond to God’s grace towards bad people because we are selfish and we see nothing in it for us. Only when we recognize that we are not good, and only when we, in faith and with God’s grace give up our defenses, we will be able to be good towards people.

<<<An official asked him this question, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.>>> Luke 18:18-19

But only then we will be able to tell truly in our hearts, and not only in our minds, that Only God is good, and we are doing only what we are being asked for, while we can only sin by ourselves.

<<<So should it be with you. When you have done all you have been commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants; we have done what we were obliged to do.’”>>> Luke 17:10

I also meant to add for those serious about the gift of Faith there is
a wonderful upcoming opportunity beginning in October. Pope Benedict XVI
has declared a Year of Faith for all to become more involved and better informed about this tremendous gift offered by God to all who will believe. The entire Bible is about this faith revealed to us by Our Creator. What a wonderful year it will be for all who choose to participate.

Bob Garvlin writes: “As for Jesuit grad I keep wondering what made
him look here? Was he just curious, critical or is there a secret desire for
truth even though his pride and his scientism is making him resist?”

I have a more likely, albeit cynical, explanation as to why Jesuit Boston College Grad is here.

He is what is know on the Internet as a Troll.

Trolls are not interested in a true dialogue. They’re there to mess things up. A good strategy regrading trolls is not to feed them.

Kenny you can address your post TO me and not post ABOUT me, thank you.

Faith is a gift. I have read and re-read the bible, and I do not think the Church teaches that God gives the gift of faith to some and not to others, if that were the case, those who do not believe would not be responsible for not believing. Why would God withhold faith from some, and then let them choose hell, because they do not believe? It shouldn’t be their fault if they don’t believe because according to you, God does not give faith to everyone. God offers this gift to ALL, some just do not want it.

Thirst, I agree with what you said. I disagree with Kenny that God does not offer the gift of faith to all of us. That gift is offered to us all, some are not interested in receiving it and do not seek it. But, the impression I got from Kenny was that even if someone wants faith, God may not give it to them. That is wrong.

To Jesuitical graduate of Boston College
So I see from your comments you really don’t accept the validity of the four Gospels. So let’s play science fiction. I ask you to imagine a world in which there is one true living God, who is pure love. And he creates a world out of love. He creates spiritual beings, some fall, some remain faithful to him, and he creates a human race. The first parents of the human race sin and lose their status as friends of this God. Now this God forms a people—let’s call them Israelites or Jews —they are just a little tribe wandering in the desert, but he decides he wants to work with this tribe exclusively because this God delights to work with nothing. We call them the chosen people. Throughout hundreds of years of history he works with this tribe, performs incredible miracles, sends them prophets, teaches them right from wrong, gives them a huge land to settle against incredible odds. He promises their ancestor—let’s call him Abraham—that he will make his descendants as numerous as the stars! While all the other peoples of the time disappear from the face of the earth the Jews are still a cohesive race thousands of years later. In fact, this God made the Jews as numerous as the stars in the sky—just like he promised. The other peoples of the time had their own gods, but we do not remember the names of those gods, nothing about them or their peoples unless they show up in a movie or a comic book. But the God of the Jews is still worshipped several thousand years after His first self-revelation to Abraham wandering in the desert. This is a clue that this God actually exists and affects events in this world. I mean what are the odds that some nobody in the desert thousands of years ago would predict his God would make his descendants as numerous as the stars and then have it come true! Dropping out of the script for a minute I get chills when I see the Jews in my neighborhood walking to Synagogue on Saturday. Same people same beliefs, a living witness that The God who spoke to the man Abraham exists. He’s not a figment of Abraham’s imagination, nor a figment of my imagination, and I admit I have a good imagination. I haven’t seen any ancient Macedonians going to Church. Nope. No Babylonians building towers either. Never met a guy from Media, Parthia. The Hittites as a cohesive group disappeared from the face of the earth in 8th Century BC. Haven’t met any of them. Wouldn’t recall them at all except they are mentioned in the Bible. But Jews, another ancient people, I have met in the dentist’s office.

And the Jews kept a record of their dealings with God. Now if you thought God was talking to you, wouldn’t you keep good records, faithful records, records that so often are confirmed by archaeological evidence?

The Jews watched God work with them and they concluded nothing happens accidentally, everything is gifted providentially. So the events of their lives told them what their God was like, what He liked to do. And God’s viewpoint was so different than man’s. We really have a hard time grasping it. “Love your enemies?” (hinted at the in Old Testament and made manifest in the New.) Come on who could invent that stuff. They must have been smoking something.  The Jews record of history told them their God cared for them, and if they trusted in Him, they would prosper. When they forgot him and worshipped other gods, they did not prosper. It is a factual historical record that they were carried off by the barbarians numerous times because they failed to be faithful to the One True God.
Finally, God showed them why he picked the Jews in the first place. It wasn’t because they were better than the rest of the human race. No, he planned to send His only Son to become one of them, to be born a Jew. The Jews were prepared over thousands of years by God Himself to receive Jesus as their Messiah, to recognize him when he arrived. That little Jewish virgin in Nazareth would not have known what to say or do when an angel appeared to her. When he told her she would be the mother of God, she would have had no context in which to respond—if her own people had not kept a faithful record of God’s dealings with them. And that record included a prophecy –one that was completely fulfilled: “The Virgin shall be with Child.”

It was foretold again that God’s Son would suffer and die so that mankind might be reconciled to God. Scripture is God’s self-revelation. It is a record of how God slowly revealed himself to man and then sent his only Son to speak for Him.
Well the rest of the story is the Son dies for all mankind, not just Jews, and as a result we can share a restored friendship with this God, who truthfully told Abraham his descendants would be as numerous as the stars. This Son, who had all the power of God Himself because as He explained, He and the Father are One, this Son took a group of fishermen and tax collectors—- very low on the totem pole at the time of Christ – and made them his disciples. He taught them right from wrong. He worked miracles. He forgave sins. (Some Jews crucified him for it because they knew only God can forgive sins.) But this Son was God, so he did not act wrongly. Jesus chose these low-caste men as his disciples because like his Father in heaven, He delighted to work with nothing.  This is a historical record. Nothing contradicts this happened.
Now Mohammed never healed anybody. Buddha wasn’t resurrected from the dead because we have his teeth. Hindus don’t respect low-caste people. The evil gods of the Aztecs who killed hundreds of thousands of people in one week —they never performed one true miracle. Maybe parlor tricks like the magicians of the ancient Pharaoh whom Moses confronted.  But there is no record of even that!
Jesus went on to make his apostles into priests. “Whoever’s sins you forgive shall be forgiven.” This is a real divine power. Only God can forgive sins!
“You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” Christ was so literal that Peter’s bones are under the altar where the Pope says Mass in Rome. But Christ also gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.

And as revealed in the Book of Acts, all this power given to the apostles was handed down to the next generation and the next because Jesus, who was God, said He would be with the Church until the end of time. So every Catholic priest today was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by one of the 12 apostles. Christ’s power is handed down to the priests in each succeeding generation. Now when Jesus Christ, true God and true man, took mud and rubbed it on the blind man’s eyes, he wasn’t superstitious. He had the power to heal and He chose to do it through humble things like dirt, spit and water.

He is no way to be compared to an Indian shaman and Kachina dolls! The Catholic priest is another Christ. He has the power to expel demons; he can heal with God’s own power in the Sacrament of the Sick; he can forgive sins, a power given to him by Jesus Christ Himself. He can explain God’s Word, God’s own self revelation to mankind. He can change lowly bread and lowly wine into the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. When this ordinary man with supernatural powers, blesses salt, Christ Himself blesses the salt. The power in the lowly salt is not my superstitious belief. The power in the lowly blessed salt is God’s power. God didn’t give this power to the Church because he thought we were all so special. He gave it to us because He delights to work with nothing. Now if I didn’t understand this, and I thought the salt itself had power, I would be a superstitious fool.

Navajo healing ceremonies have no self-revelation by God that is clearly and historically recognized by a large portion of humanity. There are no Navajo prophesies going back thousands of years that any fool could see came true.  In fact if you examine every other major religion in the world, you do not find any recognizable signs of the religion’s validity. You find man’s fertile imagination at work or worse a demon’s involvement.

Since you were Jesuit educated you probably know that a Gnostic rejects God’s revealed truth in the Scripture and the oral Tradition of the Church. The Gnostic instead looks for secret knowledge. They do hunger for Truth, but truth on their terms. And the punishment God has given to the Gnostic is they never find the Truth at all—unless they stop searching and turn to God Himself.
Jesus said, “I AM THE TRUTH.” There is no substitute.
Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

What a horrible morass of ignorance, superstition and fear must Father Thomas’ mind be.  Not only must he accommodate his flawed ideas of catholic theology, but as an exorcist he must also find room for belief in new age woo of all kinds, wicca, satanism and who knows what other groundless nonsense.  Djinns perhaps?  Fear of the powers of angiokoks, shamans, fakirs?  Really!  We’ve come a long way since the ed of the dark ages.

@ Casting Crowns….The Church *does* teach that sufficient grace is
OFFERED to all for salvation. Not all accept this grace but it is there
for the asking. You say there is no biblical foundation for this? The
Catholic Church does not teach “sola scriptura”. That is strictly a Protestant teaching. The Church teaches not only from Holy Scripture but
also by Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the church. All grace for salvation comes through the church (meanng from Jesus Christ and the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ) That does not mean that all will be saved but it is possible for all to be saved by the Act of Redemption.
I would also disagree about God not *wasting*grace on sinners or the wicked as you said. Christ came precisely for sinners, not those who have no “need for a physician” ( see Matthew )Whether the sinner accept those graces is up to his own free will. Of course, grace is never wasted. It is either accepted or rejected.I recommend highly the book by the late
Blessed Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold, for a better understanding how this all works out between God and His fallen creatures.

The Boston Graduate wonders “Why would God withhold faith from some, and then let them choose hell, because they do not believe?”

Me? I don’t know the answer to that question, even assuming that the Boston Grad phrased it right.

But I do know that the Bible says 1) Faith is a gift from God and 2) God’s ways are inscrutable to man. That’s good enough for me.

@Thrist:  You’re saying thus grace is then meted out.  Your term of “sufficient” grace indicates God’s grace is not in fullness but can be watered down in adequacy.  I find no evidence for that in any of Paul’s writings nor in the gospel.  We will agree the Lord extends His grace to sinners (I am only one example), but “all whom the Father has given Me will come.”  By the gospel we know the Father does not will nor give to the Son “all sinners.”  Thus, His grace is not given to all carte blanche.  We see OT and NT examples where God’s grace was never distributed to the wicked, the evil and those in opposition to the Lord.

Susan Fox,  I had logged in to reply to your earlier response to me and then read your long diatribe.  There is much I could say but will leave it with a suggestion from Kenny above…don’t feed the Troll.  I do think you need to get out more.

So why would God withhold faith from some? He would not but as Jesus says in John Chapter 3 vs 19,20 “The Light came into the world but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were wicked. Everyone who practices evil hates the light. He does not come near it for fear that his deeds will be exposed.” God respects our freedom so much that He will not drag anyone to heaven. If we wish to run like cockroaches when the light is turned on, God will permit this and we can spend our eternity with the devil and with his angels. Or we can repent while there is still time for as Jesus says in vs.21 “But he who acts in truth comes into the light to make clear that his deeds are done in God.”  And that is why confession is still difficult for some of use because with each confession we are offered the chance to bring a bit more of our darkness into His light for our healing and the demons have a bit less they can use to pull us back into our old ways.

@ Casting Crowns….You are attributing to me things not said by me.
Again, it is important to note this is a Catholic blog and what I
am saying is from a Catholic perspective. Sola scriptura ( that belief
Scripture is the sole or only source of truth) is not a Catholic
teaching. Your comments sound Calvanistic to me so I am not sure we
are coming from the same place. Since this article is really about
New Age practices bringing about an increased need for exorcism perhaps
we should get back on topic.Even asinteresting as this matter of faith
and salvation has become,it is not really the issue here.

Kenny posted: “
Posted by Kenny on Friday, Sep 28, 2012 11:25 AM (EST):

The Boston Graduate wonders “Why would God withhold faith from some, and then let them choose hell, because they do not believe?””“

I asked that question.

@chris moffat -  Wow! what an arrogant and ignorant comment! If you are a Christian and believe in God, then you should believe in Satan and other spiritual realities as well. It is foolish to think that demons and Satan does not exist.

Thus far, in my opinion, the most pertinent and salient comments about this topic were posted by Tanya Wersinger on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 6:26 AM (EST) when she made these points:
*Parents have a responsibility to teach children about Jesus Christ, especially when they look for alternatives in the occult.
*Christians have a responsibility for sharing their faith with everyone, leading them to Jesus Christ.
* The belief that the devil doesn’t exist is a tactic used by the devil to bring anyone that falls for that lie to his campground.
* The devil does exist.  On the authority of Jesus, we know that to be true.
* Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Light, and He is the ONLY wat to the Father.  Denying that is handing your soul to the devil.
* Possession does exist (for anyone that is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit).  It isn’t a fairy tale. (A believer in Jesus that is filled with the Holy Spirit can be tempted or harassed.  We are told to use the Armor of the Holy Spirit, in Ephesians Chapter 6, as a “weapon” to WIN the spiritual battle. 
* New age practices do bring a soul with an encounter with the evil one, everyone has a responsibility here to help our fellow man to know the danger.************************************************************
Great summary, Tanya.  I’m keeping your list handy, because this article shows that even priests need to be reminded of all you wrote. It shows that 7 minute feel-good homilettes on Sundays are not enough to turn Catholics in the pews into people that can Evangelize the Christian faith to others, during this upcoming, “Year of Faith”.

Faith = a gift from the Father.  Without faith, “it is impossible to please God.”

To anyone:
1) Salt is salt, be it blessed or not.  It is Jesus that gives the power. The idea of blessed salt reminds me of when the Jews were in the desert and they were bitten by snakes.  God the Father had Moses and Aaron fashion a snake image on a pole, and anyone that looked to it, was healed.  Instead of the people praising God, and letting it go at that, they turned the snake pole into a kind of lucky rabbits foot, and believed it had “powers”.  One of their kings (Josiah?  Hezekiah?) had it demolished, to draw the people’s attention back to God.

2) Is this the blog that indicated the founder of the Legion of Mary is now being considered as a cause for sainthood?  Do you know how much time and money that saint-making effort involves in Rome?  Why on God’s green earth can’t ALL our churchmen just teach and preach the Gospel, in its fullness, as did Peter and Paul?  I ask you: WHY NOT?

I knew I saw this somewhere:
Susan Fox wrote, “Frank Duff, founder of the Legion of Mary, who is under consideration for canonization wrote an article on sacramentals.”

Why not STOP the incessant causes for new saints, and just focus on the Gospel for a change?  We are supposed to be evangelizing.  The Year of FAITH (in Jesus, the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed) is almost here.  Stop the madness of new and more saints already.  Stop the superstition. Satan & dark spiritual forces exist.  Christians (including Catholics) must educate ourselves, according to the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus the Christ.

ThirstforTruth, I’ve made comments addressed to you today in “Funeral of Cardinal Martini to Take Place Monday”.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/funeral-of-cardinal-martini-to-take-place-monday#ixzz27oArv2KX

Mistical, If I understand you correctly, you and Kenny are saying, “Don’t feed the Troll,” another version of throwing pearls before Swine? meaning discuss God with Jesuitical graduate of Boston College? But don’t you know? Jesus paid an infinite price for Jesuitical graduate of Boston College. He gave His life for him. And he/she is a child of God. That said, it’s possible Jesuitical graduate of Boston College may not be interested in listening, and you are right you shouldn’t talk to someone unless they are open to listening. However, I find it difficult to judge that with an online conversation.  Also there are many people here having a discussion, and if Jesuitical graduate of Boston College does not want to listen, someone else may. I did post the comment on my blog and got this response:
“You go, girl.  I LOVE your response.  I use blessed salt in clear pill capsules.  The capsule keeps falling off my front door when people slam it, so I put it on a nearby window and ask Mary and Joseph to make it count for the door.  Any sacramental used with faith and prayer has nothing to do with magic—just the opposite.”  The person who wrote this used to be into witchcraft and went through a conversion. Blessed Salt is important to her because of her previous association with Satan. He likes to pester people he once thought of as his own. God bless you Mistical.

This probably isn’t much of a post, but I’m just going to say it anyway.  It was like Jesus came crashing through all the thorny brambles and thickets trapping me in sin for my whole life. I was 60. He was like a mad man. Nothing could stop Him. He wanted to save me, even though I surely wasn’t worth it. What got into Him, I have no idea. All I can think of is that I was mouthing the rosary in my dying mother’s ears for a couple of weeks because she was religious and I knew she wanted it hear it. Within a year, I knew the truth and never looked back. Jesus said it best, “I know mine and mine know me and they follow me.” Amen.

@ThirstforTruth:  So, your view is that the Catholic “perspective” is to only agree with those writings of Paul which fit a Catholic agenda?  If the Bible is inerrant then you have a dilema.  Please itemize the areas of Paul’s writings you do not accept.

@Joanp62:  [“I asked that question.”]  The gift of faith can be withheld because the Lord already knows the dispostion of hearts unwilling to accept.

Terah, you have a very odd understanding of Catholicism. The Church has been canonizing Saints for centuries, almost as long as 2000 years. These people were God’s masterpieces so to speak and we honor God when we honor those people who have gone before us who learned to love and serve God to the highest degree. They are now in heaven with God and see him face to face.  By canonizing them, the Church is saying that they are indeed in Heaven and that there is nothing in their(from the time of their conversion if that is the case) and nothing in their writings that is contrary to the Gospel. We then have Christians who have gone before us who we can use as an example and give us encourage on our path to God.

@Casting Crowns….Say what? What writings of Paul are you insinuating?
Catholics accept the letter of Paul in the New Testament in their entirety. Perhaps it is the interpretation we disagree upon but since
I am not sure what you are referring to cannot answer that. But I maight
say that Catholics do not have an agenda as such other than the Truth as revealed by God through His Son…and Scripture. If you have a problem with that please refer it to the Lord!

Eugene, you were one heck of a good son.  To say that rosary so your mother could hear it was an act of pure love… It’s no wonder Jesus went through h_ll and high water to get you back…Thank you for sharing; I absolutely loved that story.  And yes you sure were worth it.  Gee, I sure hope my son comes around like that in the clinch…..God bless you, D.

@ThirstforTruth:  Please, not that hackneyed phrase “refer it to the Lord.”  Rather, I will refer it back to you.  For one, Canon Law refers to the 10 Commandments, papal decrees and orders.  Paul states that we no longer live under the curse of the Law but under grace.  We are still expected to live by the Law, but grace is what guides the believer—not decrees and orders coming from Rome.  Paul also covers proper church discipline in 1 Timothy—Timothy being head of the church at Ephesus and then in 1 Corinthians.

Joanp62 - What I mean is that if Rome spent LESS time canonizing new and different saints, and just focused on teaching the Gospel (and I second what Casting Crowns wrote about also teaching ALL of St. Paul’s writings) our church would be healthier.  It would equip those in the pews to Evangelize about things that matter.  Things that have eternal value.  Even the dark spirit world would be left handicapped, when people in the pews KNOW the faith left to us by the Apostles.  Priests: preach the meat.  The very last person to actually be IN Heaven was (known to be) Saint Paul, “whether in the body, or out of the body”, no one knows.  But he is the last eye-witness, as was John, and some of the early prophets.
Rome has no idea what is really going on IN Heaven right now.  All of us only get our facts from the Bible, God’s inspired word. Time for everyone to focus on what is important, and on information that is trustworthy, from God alone.

This link on dealing with temptation is good.
http://ascentofcarmel.blogspot.com/2012/09/winning-battle-against-temptation.html’

My mentioning Charismatic Catholics last week made me remember a story Francis Macnutt had told in St Louis. He was in the early development of healing ministry in the Renewal. Anyway they went to Africa to share with some missionary orders and the people began to reveal that they were going to the Catholic missions for the sacraments but when they thought there was some deliverance needed or to be freed from some curse the witch doctor had put on them they would either go to the Pentecostals who believed in these things or they would go to another witch doctor to be freed from the curse. Of course that would lead them to greater bondage. And the Catholic missionaries were very learned but did not believe in these things anymore.  And Francis and his team learned from the Pentecostals and from Church teaching on these things and they began to do deliverance prayer and many of the new converts came back to the church to be freed from evil spirits and not just when a full possession was exhaustively and clearly discerned.  So perhaps a lesson is that God can use other Christians, as with the Pentecostals here to remind His church of what we should have known but have forgotten.  Incidentally Francis had left the priesthood and that caused some of us in St Louis pain but he was later reconciled to the church and is now in good standing and still teaches some although he is in his 80s. Francis used to teach that 2/3 of the world’s people know there are spiritual realities we need to deal with but we in the west have forgotten these things and have had to learn them the hard way.  Thus the importance of dealing with cases of oppression and obsession and curses and not just the more complete possessions.  These lessor things can also block the freedom that God wants for His people.

DearTerah James, I’m glad you brought up the serpent. You had it right at first. God ordered them to make the serpent, and when they looked at it, God healed them from the snake bite. It was not any lucky rabbit’s foot. It was like a Catholic sacramental. And it worked because of God’s power. Why would God tell people to make a superstitious thing and heal them using it? Because it is not superstition. God likes to use material things to heal people. As long as you realize it is God doing the healing with the object, it is not superstition. However, the brass serpent is even more exciting because it is a pre-figurement of Christ himself raised up on the cross. The sinless Christ made himself sin and was lifted up on the cross where we all receive life. Jesus even made reference to this when he said, ” Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out, and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” (John 12:32) In context He referred to the manner of his death.
So just as the people were healed by the raising up of the brass serpent in the Old Testament so are we healed by Christ raised up on the cross. It is similar to God promising Abraham his children will be as numerous as the stars, and indeed thousands of years later, the Jews are everywhere. God planned that serpent episode in the wilderness (not the human stubbornness part) as a sign of what He planned to do with His Son Jesus. The same thing is true of the story of Abraham about to sacrifice his son Isaac. Isaac asks his father, “where is the animal for the sacrifice?” not knowing that his father expected to sacrifice himself. But Abraham answers prophetically, “God Himself will supply the lamb for the sacrifice.” And indeed at that moment in time, God provides a wild ram for Abraham’s sacrifice, so that Isaac is not killed. But you can almost fast forward and see God preparing for John the Baptist to enter the scene and see Jesus for the first time, saying, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world!”

It is very good if you are reading the Scripture daily. However saints are contemporary examples of the Gospel. Each saint models some aspect of the life of Christ so you can see it set in a time closer to your own. Frank Duff lived Jesus’ admonition: “Go out and preach the gospel to all nations!” He set up an organization whose chief charism is door-to-door evangelization. In the 193os he and other members of the Legion of Mary undertook loving visitation of the residents of the Red Light District in Dublin. They treated the pimp, the bully, the prostitute, the owner of the house of ill repute as Jesus Christ. Like 17th century priest St. Louis Marie de Montfort, who brought home a sick and homeless man in his arms to the rectory, and when the other priests wouldn’t answer the door, he shouted, “OPEN THE DOOR TO JESUS CHRIST!” Then he brought the poor man in, fed him, washed him and put him in his own bed. That is how Frank Duff and the Legion treated the people in the Red Light District. They didn’t judge them. They loved them. Continuous loving visitation bore good fruit. Within a few years, every prostitute/bully/pimp left the life returned to the Church. They arranged good Catholic marriages for many of the prostitutes. Even the owners of the houses of ill repute converted except for one. Their records show he moved out of town unrepentant and they lost track of him. That is a totally amazing record. Can’t you hear them at the judgement: “All saved Lord except one.” When Jesus said, “Go preach the good news to all nations,” wouldn’t you like to hear the rest of the story? How did those intrepid Christians down through the centuries live the message of the Gospel? That is what the lives of the saints are—a living Gospel in the contemporary setting. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

But Terah, what you just posted is not Catholic teaching, it sounds very Protestant. First, Catholics do not believe in the Bible Alone. We do NOT only get our facts from the bible. That is not what the Church teaches. As a matter of fact, the Church came before the Bible! My explanation, however sparse, still stands and is in accord with Church teaching. The Catholic Church has the Fullness of God’s Truth, God is leading the Church in matters of faith and morals- He will not let the Church mislead us in these matters and that includes the acknowledgement (canonization)that some people are Saints in heaven right now with God.

I do want to add that I have read some of your posts on other articles, and you appear to have a lot of knowledge and understanding of the Church and Scripture. Well done. But in this case you are incorrect. God Bless.

Terah James, you’re not Catholic, are you….

@Joanp62:  You posted to Terrah James [“Catholics do not believe in the Bible alone.”]  Why not?  Do you think Terrah James needs to apologize for believing in God’s word?  What biblical inerrancies has sacred tradition has corrected?

@ Terah james…You have a right to your *opinion* but the answer you gave to Joan62 was not in line with Catholic thinking regarding the saints.  Catholics look to more than Holy Scripture for the Truth. We are not Sola scriptura as so many in this combox seem to be. Revealed truth is deposited in the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ to be preserved until the end of time at His Second Coming. Truth is guarded and guided by the Holy Magisterium(the Pope and his College of Cardinals and preserved in Sacred Tradition.
If you do not accept this you are not in communion with the Catholic Church. Saints are part of our heritage and we honor them and bless them
for their lives and example given. Saintly lives are still being lived among us today and we continue to name some of the new ones so that we
continue to inspire the Christian way of life. The saints are teachers in that way in the Church. We do not have to neglect the early church teachings, or the catechism, or the apostolic teachings to honor them. In fact saints enhance the realism of all our teachings. aND QUESS WHAT TERAH:
WE ARE ALL CALLED TO BE SAINTS! We may not all be cannonized by the Church but we all need to get to heaven. For that we need sanctity.
Incidentally, the authority of the church (its magisterium) was given to
it by Jesus Christ when he said to His apostles, after His resurrection,
“Go therefore, and make disciples of all Nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe
all that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all days, even
unto the consummation of the world “.( Matthew 28:19-20)

D - I am a Catholic convert. My family of origin is Evangelical Christian.
Today, Pope Benedict gave a homily about how Catholics need to rejoice, when non-Catholic (Christians) act and do good, in Jesus’ Name.  I think that is good news.  By appreciating what all Christians bring to the table of the Body of Christ is healthy.  NC Register reported that story today.

Joanp62: You wrote, “We do NOT only get our facts from the bible.”
How would you explain why it is written so many times in the Bible, that we are to “test the spirits” (teachings) and prove them to be true?  How can YOU test the spirits?  For too many Catholics, I’ve found that they believe anything that a priest or a nun tells them.  It sounds official- they do not “test the spirits” for themselves, they merely accept.  Testing is ACTIVE and requires thought.  Accepting is PASSIVE and requires no thought.

Susan Fox: I agree with everything you wrote, and I appreciate that you took the time to explain the corrolation between the serpent in Exodus and looking to Jesus, on the Cross.  My main point is that our church would be healthier and with more educated people in the pews, WHEN our church leadership puts its focus on Jesus and on the Gospel, as it is written in the New Testament.  All of the New Testament, including teaching Paul’s letters, and those written by Peter, James, etc.

We are all called upon to be “saints”, as Paul wrote to the “saints” of his day, in his letters to the churches.  The word has been taken over by men in Rome, making them the last word on who is in Heaven.  We ought not care about who is in Heaven.  Our ONLY priority and focus ought to be first, our own souls, and secondly, in spreading the Good News of the Gospel, which is the Great Commmission: a command given to us by Jesus Himself.

That was His ONLY command about what we are to do - love God, love neighbors as ourselves, and teach the Gospel.  Until we obey His COMMAND, everything else must remain peripheral.  500 saints.  10,000 saints.  It’s not important.  Frankly, it just adds to the confusion.  God’s word is simple.  It’s consistent too.  From it, we can know HOW to “test the spirits”.

Dear Terah James,
I certainly agree that the sermons at Mass should be a commentary on the gospel reading, and they should be teaching us the content of the Catholic faith, whereas too often we are listening to stories from Guide Post from the pulpit. To some extent how good the sermons are depends on what diocese you are in. I remember moving from one diocese where in 12 years I had never heard one word on the gospel and moving to another. I went to Sunday Mass, and the priest actually commented on the readings for the day, spoke about the Gospel. I burst into tears, cried through the second half of Mass, walked past the priest weeping and went home weeping. In 12 years, I had never heard a diocesan priest give a commentary on the gospel. I remember in this diocese one of the editorial writers in the local “Roman” Catholic newspaper said we have to stop “Jesus idolatry.” There is no such thing. He is God. We are to idolize Him. It’s the only form of “idolatry” that is holy. In this diocese my husband and I were labeled “fundamentalists” because we believed in what the gospel said—we had a deep appreciation of the Gospel in the context of the teachings of the Church. Testing the spirits is very important, but we do that when we are trying to chose between one good and another. If something is evil, we don’t need to test it. It’s evil, avoid it. End of discernment.  If something is from the Deposit of Faith given to us by Jesus Christ and authentically taught by the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, we don’t have to test it, we accept it. But that doesn’t mean a single priest or nun will know what the Church teaches. They can mislead us like anyone else. You’ll get the deposit of faith from reading Pope Benedict (who one day probably will be canonized a saint). You also get it from Scripture, from the New Catholic Catechism, and from papal encyclicals. You’ll also find it in the lives of the saints. So a single priest may say it’s okay to use birth control, but when you read Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI, you find out the Church’s authentic teaching is no, we cannot. It is a sin. I have met Catholics with tragic awful things in their lives because a priest or bishop told them it was okay, and it wasn’t. So I agree with you. Our faith can’t be passive. We have to actively seek the truth.  I understand your reluctance to get into saints with your evangelical background, and it’s not necessary to know the saints in order to be Catholic, but I think you would find a lot of additional joy in your life if you were open your heart a little to learning about the saints. It would certainly make it a lot easier to pray the Divine Praises: “Blessed be God in his angels and in his saints.” The Bible, too, is full of stories of God’s saints. Saint Lazarus, Saint Moses, Father Abraham, St. John the Baptist, St. John the Beloved Disciple, St. Jude, St. Mary Magdeline, St. Mary, the Mother of Jesus, St. Ann. These are all our friends in heaven, and they can help us even now. St. Theresa of Lisieux said she would spend her heaven doing good on earth, and she does. I would never find a parking space if it weren’t for St. Anthony, and he even gets me a lane in the crowded swimming pool. Now I know that God got me the lane and the parking spot, but St. Anthony asked him, and based on the merits of St. Anthony’s life, God said, “Okay, one parking spot coming up.” Precious in the eyes of God is the death of His saints. God bless you.

With all due respect; sin is not what brought all diseases into the world. It is widely accepted that during the early evolution of our species, it was centuries of incest that caused so many disorders.By that it means that as humans developed, & tended to mate only with those with whom they were familiar, the gene pool became very limited, Then, as we progressed into societies, groups, & organizations such as religious clans, we only permitted mating with those within an acceptable group.The pool of genetics continued to be very limited with minimal exposure to a wider selection of chromosomes. This was an evolutionary downfall, perhaps, but we ended up with textbooks of disease processes & disabilities, & fell prey to an astonishing array of microorganisms & states like malformed proteins such as those that cause spongiform encephalopathy or ‘mad cow disease’.

Casting Crowns, because the Church has never believed in the Bible alone. It is a Protestant thing. As I said, the Church came before the Bible, the completed collection of canonized books. There is no error in the Bible, it’s just that it does not give us ‘everything’ that is necessary for our salvation. This is NOT my opinion, if you have a problem with it, take it up with the Church.

Terah wrote: “Joanp62: You wrote, “We do NOT only get our facts from the bible.”
How would you explain why it is written so many times in the Bible, that we are to “test the spirits” (teachings) and prove them to be true?  How can YOU test the spirits?  For too many Catholics, I’ve found that they believe anything that a priest or a nun tells them.  It sounds official- they do not “test the spirits” for themselves, they merely accept.  Testing is ACTIVE and requires thought.  Accepting is PASSIVE and requires no thought.”

And what does this have to do with your claiming that it is in the Bible where we “get all our facts”?

It is true, many Catholics only get any sort of Catholic teaching from their priests on Sunday, or that is the only place they expect to get it, and not all priests are supportive of all of Church teaching. Catholics need to learn about the Church on their own- they need to ACTIVELY learn about and grow deeper in the faith.

By testing the spirits, are you saying that we should be “testing” the teachings on faith and morals that come to us from the Magesterium? The Church teaches, and it is biblical, that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in these matters and God will not let her err or mislead the faithful in these matters. He does not leave it up to each individual to determine the Truth and then hope that we ‘get it right’. The Holy Spirit does direct each of us in our own personal lives, but He will not teach different “truths” to different Christians.

Because we have the Pope and the Magesterium, the teachings of the Church have not changed. Whereas with the various Protestant denominations, teachings have changed over the years, and people who call themselves Christians do not all believe the same things. How is that being “One in Christ” as our Lord wanted?

I appreciate that you are a Catholic convert. As I said before, there is a lot that you seem to understand about Catholicism, but there is alot you still need to learn. I do not know all there is to know about our Faith, but I think I know a good deal compared to what I thought I knew 15 years ago. It is obvious that due to your Protestant background, there are still things that you hold on to that are contrary to Catholicism, which is understandable.  While non-Catholic Christians have some of the Truth, they do not have the Fullness of the Truth. I do detect a spirit of arrogance in some of your posts, as though you are absolutely certain that you know all about Catholicism and Christianity. It takes humility to admit that perhaps we do not know all or understand everything we think we do.

@Susan Fox…..Your comment to Terah was correct from the viewpoint of true Catholic teaching(s). It was stated very well. But I would take exception to the part where you said it was not necessary to follow the lives of the saints to be Catholic? Not so! Say the creed to yourself that we say at every mass…the part: that we believe in “the communion of saints”? Think that over. Do you still claim saints not necessary part of out belief?

Terah: You are a Catholic convert who *seems* to still have one foot in the Protestant church. For one example, you cling to the Protestant notion that all our teachings are Biblical. It is true that most are in fact Biblically based but we also recognize that Sacred Tradtion and the Holy Magisterium are sound sources we can look for interpretation for Truth. Catholics do believe that. The problem for sola scriptura is that no where in the Bible does it say that…but we have numerous examples of Jesus telling Peter (whom he chose as the first Pope): “Feed my sheep”!
We know from the Bible there clearly was an established leadership within the early church. We see that in the letters of Paul to the various established churches in his time (Corinthians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, etc)where he either praises for following the teachings or chastizes them where they do not. He warns them against following false teachers and ignoring those with authority to define (test)those truths. At his time there WAS NO BIBLE for people to read and follow but rather only those with authority (magisterim)to preach and teach.Also I think your understanding of the phrase “testing the spirits” is more Protestant than Catholic.

@H(Bert)Vincelette:  Yes, sin did bring disease (disorder)into the world after the ocassion of first disobedience to God’s Word.(Original Sin) which brought this disorder. You have not refuted that with your post. Incest is/was sinful so even if that disordered sexual behaviour caused
what you said, it was still sin that brought this. I think however your attempt to relate sin with disease a bit simplistic.

Yes, the Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth. It does not mean that we, Catholics, are representatives of these Truth when we live our sinful and uncaring lives.
Do you want Muslim to become Catholics? Become more obedient than they are. You need Christ for that.
Do you want Buddhists to become Catholics? Become more peaceful than they are. You need Christ for that.
Do you want Evangelicals to become Catholics? Become more evangelical than they are. You need Christ for that.
Do you want Pentecostal to become Catholics? Become more charismatic than they are. You need Christ for that.
Do you want Jehovah Witness to become Catholics? Witness to God (the Father) more than they are. You need Christ for that.
Do you see that? *You* (and I) need to change. For the sake of Christ. For the sake of Church.
Talk is cheap. If you do not die to yourself, and only want to be praised for what you know, then you will know ‘stuff’ but you will not know ‘Him’. You will be always defending your opinions. When you know Christ then you will stop defending your opinions. You will be loving others the way Christ loved you.
Repent, and start praying. Talk to Him. He desires your full attention of your mind and heart. Bring back silence to the Church. Rebuke those who spend time talking at the Church while they could be talking to Christ in the Eucharist.
It is time to change. Evangelization is not a cheap-talk. It is sacrifice. It is not giving up chocolate, coffee, or a coke. It is giving up. Period. That will cost you. Everything. Will you give it to Christ who gave everything out of love for you? Believe, and then you will understand. It is promise. Not mine. It is Divine promise.

@Susan Fox:  Thank you for your comments. I too, have been labeled a “fundamentalist” by our New Age Nun—Pastoral Associate.  As for sermons at Mass, we know they are not.  Homilies are not sermons because they only last 7 or 8 minutes tops at the direction of a Vatican mandate.  When is the last time any “teaching” has occurred in these homilies?  They are only something to move past to get to the primary reason for the Mass which is the Eucharist.  The Mass is no forum for teaching.  I hear all sorts of lamenting by people that Catholics are not knowledgeable in their faith.  Going to Mass is not where to find education in the faith but in the study of God’s word.  We have a parish which has never encouraged study either in the Catechism nor the Bible.  When a few people formed a Bible study, we had to fight tooth and nail for the parish to give us a room to meet during a week night.  Even then, they would not “guarantee” we could use the room each week.  Thank you very much !!  Apparently, the parish leadership feels “You don’t really need to know about the Bible,—just listen to us (the priest).”  OK, so fine.  We are all doing quite well now studying God’s word at a local Evangelical church where we are welcomed.  The whole idea of not being able to use one room at the parish center for Bible Study is pathetic considering we paid to build it.  It’s not suppose to be a shrine or a legacy to a Pastor who will only be there temporarily anyway.  No wonder regular Catholic church attendance keeps dropping nationally.  These guys live in the ecelesiasticl world—not the real world where people live.

@Joanp62:  [“There is no error in the Bible, it’s just that it does not give us ‘everything’ that is necessary for our salvation.  This is NOT my opinion.”]  Perhaps it should be YOUR opinion since Jesus said so.  Paul says in Romans 1:16 of the gospel: “for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.”  Since you have stated the Bible is inerrant, then perhaps it is YOU who needs to “take it up with Paul.”  Futhermore, at His ascension, Jesus instructed the apostles to baptize and teach the gospel (the gospel, Joanp62) not anything else.  You also stated the Bible does not give us everything necessary for salvation.  Really?  I thought you are not allowed to have your own interpretation?  It is the church which has decided what is necessary.  Jesus never said you need to invent any additions.

This discussion has gotten totally off topic. Please take the apologetics discussion to Catholic answers or to another discussion list here. I see an enemy’s hand in getting us so off topic when there is so much on exorcism the occult and new age we need to deal with.

@ Casting Crowns: Your insistance on sola scriptura on a Catholic website
needs to stop.  The truth is no where in the Bible is there justification
for that. No where does it say that Truth is only available through scripture. What IS available in Scripture is true, inerrant, but it is not the only place Catholics may find it. There is also Sacred Tradition as well as the teaching Magisterium. There was no Bible as such in the early church..it did not appear in book form for many centuries following the founding of the Church. Truth was handed down by oral tradition by the Apostles and their disciples.
Also, the Sacrifice of the Mass is *the* focal point of Catholicism. To
say otherwise is patently not a Catholic teaching. Sorry about the dust-up over getting a regular classroom for your Bible Study. Perhaps the
fact your Pastor was not supportive of your endeavors and that you are
now meeting off-site, in an evangelical church says what some of us are suspecting…you are not following solid Catholic teaching.

Feeling very happy that Father A. blessed water and salt for me today after Mass..I highly recommend that you have it around you in your home.

@Thirst:  [“the Sacrifice of the Mass is *the* focal point of Catholicism. To say otherwise is patently not a Catholic teaching.”]  We agree.  And the Mass is not a forum for teaching Catechism or the Bible.  You cannot accomplish that with a 7 or 8 minute homily.  Local parishes and the diocese are offering no such programs for the laity.  We certainly will not take instruction from New Age nuns.

Casting Crowns, it IS the teaching of the Catholic Church. Period. It is NOT my opinion. Why is that so hard to understand? I did not make that teaching. Geesh!

Bob, it may have gotten off topic, but questions were asked and statements made that needed to be addressed and answered.

Casting Crowns: are you Catholic?

ThirstForTruth - I too, believe in the Communion of Saints.  Of course!  I just do not pray TO saints, expecting to communicate with them, and I am convinced our Catholic church would be better off, it is just believed and preached The Gospel, in its fullness.

T.F.T. wrote, “Also, the Sacrifice of the Mass is *the* focal point of Catholicism.” I wonder when that came about.  It was the Great Commission that was the focal point in the New Testament writings, the Lord’s supper was important.  But it was not *the* focal point then.  We only need to read Acts of the Apostles, to see what the early church was doing.

Dear Thrist for Truth, it is necessary to believe in the Communion of Saints. It is in the apostles creed, but you’ve got a convert (Terah) who thinks we spend too much time talking about particular saints. There is no Catholic requirement to pray to the saints or learn about their lives. You don’t want to make it too hard for new converts to live the faith. She could become a great Catholic saint herself just reading the Bible every night, and receiving the sacraments. To require the study of the saints to be Catholic would be like me saying unless you pray the Rosary daily you are not a Catholic. My Aunt Lisa used to talk to the Jehovah’s Witnesses about the Bible, worship at the Assembly of God, and she wanted to get baptized at (I think it was) the 7 Day Adventists, but whichever Protestant Church and she wanted to get baptized at, they required that she stop drinking alcohol before she was baptized. She used to take me to a little bar across the street from her apartment in Port Townsend, Wash., and we’d have the last glass of Loganberry wine before she was baptized. Well she kept going for the last glass and never got baptized and she died. Now she actually was baptized as a baby but she didn’t know that was sufficient. Nevertheless, you can see how man made rules can discourage people from continuing in their relationship with Christ. So it’s true we believe in the Communion of Saints, but as a practical matter not every individual must read, study and pray to saints, but I hope Terah for your own sake you will open your heart to learn more about and develop a relationship with at least one saint.  But it’s not necessary to do that to be Catholic. Greg we haven’t gone off course to understand blessed salt as a Catholic sacramental it was necessary to explain the Catholic faith so people would understand blessed salt is 180 degrees from kachina dolls.  Casting Crowns, your experience in parishes qualifies you as a white martyr. I’ve been through it in other dioceses. I am in Colorado now, and I will say the quality of the sermons is excellent. So have hope. Your diocese will change too. God bless you. Susan Fox

Dear Terah..Your statements here support the
idea that you still have one foot in the Protestant Church and have not
fully grasped the theology required. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass *IS*
the focal point of all the Church, here and in eternity. If you have *missed* this you need to talk to your pastor and learn why we believe this to be true. Holy Scripture, the inspired Word, is an important part
of mass, where readings from both the OT and NT are offered. The homily is a teaching moment on those readings. But during the second part of the mass, the Eucharistic Offering, is where we are deeply immersed in what
we have read in Scripture, where Christ offers us His Body and Blood, in an unbloody re-presentation of Calvary. Reading in Revelation we find that this is being continually offered at the Heavenly Banquet table to
which we are all invited..provided….and that is where we enter most deeply into this Mystery of all Mysteries. Please, find a spiritual director if your pastor is too busy to help you deepen your understanding of your faith. You say you believe in the Communion of Saints,and yet
you do not believe in *communicating* with them. That is not how Catholics perceive this great body of witnesses Paul speaks of you are
constantly in the Presence of the Beatific Vision interceding for those of us here still on earth, part of the Church militant. Again, you need
clarification on the saints so you can see how available to us they are and wanting to help us on our journey.
@Susan Fox…YOu are right ...we want to encourage our separated brethren when they do their best at coming home. However we do them no favor if we give them a *watered down* version of the faith. As for your comments about the saints, as Catholics we are encouraged to know and study them and their lives. They have reached the goal we are all striving for. Why
not learn about them? If you wanted to learn for example how to play the violin you would want to study with the best so you might achieve your goal. Just what does the *communion* of saints mean to you as a Catholic?
Surely ignoring them or saying they are not relevant to the Church and our faith is NOT part of what we believe. It is in as you correctly said the creed of the Apostles, right there from the beginning.

I might also respond briefly to the notion given here it is not necessary to pray the Rosary for Catholics. If *we* don’t pray the Rosary who will?
Listen to Our Lady of Fatima if you feel you have no obligation to say
the Rosary. I fall short as many of us do and usually do not set aside
time for a daily rosary, but I truly feel that I must try harder and encourage others to also since our Mother in Heaven has told us how important a prayer life is…if we want ever to be close to Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Of course there are many ways to pray, but her Rosary, which is really meditation on the gospel story of our Lord’s life on earth, was almost always a favorite prayer of the saints. Our late Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote a whole encyclical on it. Wonderfully inspiring to read and movtivation for including at least one decade in
our daily prayer life. As Catholics we need to say it and encourage others to also. Converts are people of great courage and perseverence. If not they could not have made the “leap”. Don’t underestimate then and how
much they can continue to grow in the faith. The converts I know can put to shame some Catholics in terms of knowledge of the faith. Scott Hahn is a good case in point…and someone all Catholics including converts should read and learn from. Actually converts, once received in the Church, have lost the distinction of convert and have become as full a member of the Mystical Body of Christ as all cradle Catholics. But all most take it upon themselves to become fully catechized.

@ Terah…My apologies for the typo…it should read… “the great cloud of witnesses of whom Paul( a saint)speaks *who*( not you)are constantly in the Presence of the Beatific Vision interceding…etc. Sorry!

@Joanp62:  If you are so lamenting about the laity not knowing WHAT the church actually teaches, then why are parishes and dioceses so lazy about actually offering instruction?  Why are clergy always silent to separate the truth of Catholicism for salvation versus *optional* observances.  For example, convert (Terrah) apparently was instructed to pray TO saints while (Susan Fox) says this is not a requirement.  The same applies to the Rosary.  It is not a requirement to pray to Mary for anything yet many Catholics think it to be so.  Convert (Terrah) mentioned the Bible as “factual” while you keep harping on “Tradition.”  There is nothing within observing Tradition which is a condition of salvation.  I have been in these RCIA sessions as a team member.  Some of these people running RCIA (especially New Age nuns) are total whack jobs.  And because Pastors are not interested except in filling quota #‘s for the Bishop to parade around for Easter Vigil —they really don’t care what instruction is taking place.  The Apostles Creed is what we believe.  Until the USCCB takes educating Catholics seriously there will continue to be all sorts of Catholic thinking —Nancy Pelosi being one.  Even a local Bishop who sees no value in rolling out Catholic education in basics of the Catechism should not prevent a local parish pastor from conducting teaching in his own parish.  It’s too bad they seem more pressed by “other” matters.  If you need help in speculating what those more important “other” matters are, let me know.  But I suspect you already know.

Terah you seem to be ignoring my posts, but I have to ask you: do you know that the Eucharist, the little white hosts which are consecrated at Mass, is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ? That while Our Lord is present everywhere, he is most substantially present, present in the most real way outside of being here again on earth in human form, than in any other way? This is a MAJOR teaching of the Church and yes, the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our faith. When we realize that, and receive Our Lord in the Eucharist, hopefully we are then better prepared to share the Faith with others so that one day they too can take part in The Eucharist.

Again, and I am sorry, but I find it rather arrogant that you think you know better than the Church about what she should be doing and what should be more important. With the Church it’s not either/or or this or that, it’s always Both/And. One thing does not negate or take away from the other.

One more thing, I wonder where you got the idea that it was the Great Commission that was the most important? Even that term is not heard from Catholics- sounds more from your Protestant background.

The Gospel is about many things including love of neighbor, share the good news, love of God above all else,God’s merciful love for us, sacrifice, self-denial, taking up our cross, the Crucifixion and Resurrection, and the Lord’s Supper/Eucharist, among other things. All are very important, but if you must have One thing that is more important, in all my 50 years as a Catholic, I have never heard that it was Sharing the Gospel/Evangelizing , important as that is. Again the Church is about Both/And, it is about All not Some.

@Joanp62:  [“in all my 50 years as a Catholic, I have never heard that it was Sharing the Gospel/Evangelizing , important as that is.”]  That is perhaps the most **astounding** comment ever made by any Catholic anywhere.  It goes hand in hand with your other comment to Terrah:  [“the Great Commission that was the most important? Even that term is not heard from Catholics- sounds more from your Protestant background.”]  You really do not know the gospel, Joanp62.  The “Commission”—more aptly put is the command (instruction) to baptize and teach in Matthew 28: 19-20:  “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”  Joanp62, you are embarrassing yourself by these comments.

Casting Crowns, I have not been lamenting the laity not knowing their Faith, you have. While it is true that many do not know Catholicism well, I have not been going on about it. You still have not answered my question. Are you Catholic? Because if you are, you also do not know Catholicism very well. You claim that the Church does believe in Sola Scriptura, and you couldn’t be more wrong. It has NEVER been Bible Alone for the Catholic Church. This is major.

Also, you ask me questions that I don’t have the answer to. Why don’t you speak to your New Age nun and your pastor about these concerns?

I was on my parish’s RCIA team for about 7 years. I know that many are teaching that should not be. It is frustrating that so many do not think it is necessary to really learn the faith and get their ‘education’ from media sound-bites, movies and TV, or think that all they need to know is stated in the homily.

As to praying to the Saints or praying to Mary- these things are strongly encouraged by the Church. The Rosary is considered to be very powerful and also strongly encouraged. They are not, however, mandatory, as for example, going to Mass at least every Sunday is.

@Joanp62:  [“You claim that the Church does believe in Sola Scriptura, and you couldn’t be more wrong.”]  Say What !!!  I never posted any such comment.  Why are you seeking to deceive those who are reading this blog?
You will find no post of mine ever making that claim.

@Joanp62….Sorry for all the brickbats here firing away at you.
Now you know the meaning heard at your Confirmation about the sacrament
enabling you to become ” a soldier for Christ”! Persevere! and say
your Rosary requesting Mary’s help! Call on all those saints and martyrs who are witnessing for you now at the foot of the Throne! We do not have
a mandatory command as you say for either of these but as a Catholic you know it would be foolish of you not to avail yourself of all grace, wherever it comes from. Look back at Mary’s words at Fatima. In addition to “fortifying” yourself with frequent reception of the sacraments, make
use of all available means of grace. Encourage all others to do the same!
Both Peter and Paul urged us to encourage each other during difficult times, as in, for example Hebrews 10:24-25.

Casting Crowns, I know the Gospel very well and I believe my comments, if you read them is evidence of that. Do I know it absolutely perfectly? Is there still more to learn? No and Yes.

In Catholicism it is not usually called The Great Commission. We call it Evangelizing, or sharing the Gospel. It is important, but it is NOT the most important when you consider that we have the Eucharist.

So again, I ask you, are you Catholic? Because you have made some astounding claims that are in error, yet you have said that you are an RCIA team member. That is very disconcerting. Others have tried to correct you and yet you ignore them.

I have nothing to be ashamed of, I know that what I wrote is correct. Perhaps you are trying to deflect attention from yourself.

Joanp62- I didn’t intend to ignore your posts.  Please forgive me, for giving that impression, and also for coming across as arrogant, as that too, is not my intention.

Does it make a difference if Casting Crowns is Catholic, or goes to a non-denominational Christian Church where the fullness of the Gospel is taught, preached and lived out, Monday-Friday, by the staff and the people in the pews?  I see no big difference.  The key for any of us is this: Can we call Jesus, “Lord”, and Savior, or not?

If Jesus IS our Lord and Savior, we are changed, transformed by our minds being renewed (from hearing the Gospel, and growing in it) and we live for Him.  While Jesus is most certainly present in the Eucharist, He is also present IN Christians, through the Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus said would never leave us or forsake us - and if we do not have the Holy Spirit residing in us when we arrive at Mass, we will not have any more of Him in us when we leave Mass, even if we consume all the consecrated Hosts, and drink an entire Cup (I dislike the word chalice) of His Blood.

“The Church”, “The Body of Christ”, is ALL of us - the ordained ministry and the non-ordained ministry (that we call lay people).  We all just have our roles in the Church - with Jesus, our Lord & Savior, as the Head.
We need to focus on matters that have Eternal Value- and by “we”, I mean everyone for whom Jesus is Lord.

@ Terah…You see no difference between being a Catholic or a non-denominational Christian? WHY did you (beginning to doubt you ever
really did go thru an RCIA program)bother with becoming a Catholic
if it really doesn’t matter. And have you ever heard of the dictatorship of relativism? As in the Pope’s mentioning it…maybe here and there in
your faith journey? Just awonderin’....Peace! to all the non-Catholics a-trollin here…are you having fun yet? Suggest you go fish in waters more familiar to you…you are not going to *catch* real Catholics on this blogspot…we are on to you!

@Joanp62:  That’s a very ridiculous question which I assume didn’t require a response.  Does your parish allow RCIA team members who are unknown and are not Catholic?  As for the “Great Commission” term not being used by Catholics,—perhaps not in your diocese.  You seem to very insular re Catholic “speak.”  Also, Joan,—time for you to provide “proof”—date and time where I said the church believes in Sola Scriptura.  You sound like Obama last night claiming companies are entitled to a tax break for outsourcing jobs overseas.  There is no such law (or provision).  Romney was correct to call Obama out on that.  Now I am calling you to prove I ever said the church believes in Sola Scriptura.  You won’t find it because the church doesn’t teach it.  I will expect your apology coming short—in Christian charity.

Thirsting for Truth, yes, I have relationships with dozens of saints and pray to them every day. I say the Rosary every day and encourage others to do so because it is a fabulous school for prayer and meditation on the Gospel! Read the Bible and say the Rosary and meditate on what you read the day before. But everyone is in a different space spiritually. Everyone is unique and has a unique relationship with God. So one person might be doing well reading the Scripture. Someone else goes to daily Mass, another says the Rosary daily. If you talk to someone who just began their spiritual journey and you load them up and say you must pray to Saints, you must go to daily Mass, You must say the Rosary daily. You will overwhelm them, and they might give up the journey entirely like my Aunt who never took herself to church to get baptized. The key to holiness is to be accountable and pray something every day. Don’t pray two hours one day and nothing the next day. Start with 15 minutes a day and eventually you will be praying constantly. There are many different prayer methods. Pick one, and do it every day. But don’t expect the beginners to do what you do when you’ve been praying for decades. They have to start somewhere. Daily Bible reading for 15 minutes. Say just the Our Father every day and you can become a great saint. (As time progresses in this practice the Lord will give you a little more to do) But do two hours of adoration and then ignore God for three days, and you will be a boat dead in the water: you won’t go anywhere. These principles are taught by the Catholic saints. In fact, Terah I recommend you read the Autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila. It’s a short little book, easy to read, and it gives you basic steps towards daily prayer, how to meditate. St Teresa had a hard time keeping her mind on prayer and she used to bring a holy book with her (Bible, lives of the saints) in case her mind wandered while she tried to pray. 
Joanp62 the “Great Commission” is part of the Catholic faith, and as pointed out it is the Lord’s last commission to us before he ascended into heaven, “GO OUT and preach the good news to all nations!”  The wording of “The Great Commission” is in the Legion of Mary handbook, which has been approved by every Pope since 1921. As a Catholic, I have been doing door-to-door evangelization in the Legion of Mary for 30 year with numerous pastor’s permission. But even if you are not called to that, you are required to talk to people in the drug store or at work. It’s part of Vatican II. The laity are supposed to take the word of God into the marketplace. The call to holiness is universal. The more you do it, the easier it gets. Sadly, it is an aspect of our faith again that is not generally preached from the pulpit, and hence Catholics might think it’s something Protestant. It’s not their fault. I blame the guy giving the sermon, or the bishop who formed him. But re: sermons several have said sermons are not the place for teaching. This is abjectly untrue even if the sermon is 7 or 8 minutes. We are supposed to get a teaching on the reading for the day, and if this job was done faithfully 365 days out of the year everyone would understand their Catholic faith, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion!
Bob Gravlin, happy to discuss exorcism with you. What do you want to talk about? I made the comment that blessed salt is a tool of exorcism it’s all right for the laity to take home and use.  The article above is right on. I have seen three cases of possession. It is strange because I think in America when we still had faith (say the 1950s) I don’t think it was as common as it is now. But we see the rise of the New Age Movement, the break down of the family due to contraception and abortion, and we are living in a post Christian era. Paganism practiced by former Protestants and Catholics is more vicious than pure paganism. The hatred for Christianity is hard to overcome because they have rejected their roots. So now you can see demoniacs on the street like they did in Jesus’ day. One day, my husband was driving my son and I home, and he turned the wrong way. We said, “Dad! That’s the wrong way!” But it took us past WalMart and walking across the street was a big tall man. His movements were jerky like a puppet on a string. He could see perfectly but the his eyes were completely white. There were no pupils. It was eerily like something else was directing him, and looking out of his eyes. He turned to look at my family. I closed my eyes. My husband said, “What the ....?” You don’t have to believe this if you don’t want to, but it was very clear to us. From reading Fr. Gabriel Amoreth’s book on exorcism, I recognized the completely white eyes as a sign of possession.
Also about this time, my pastor said he had a woman come to the rectory and she was possessed, spoke ancient languages she didn’t know, had enormous strength. He blessed her, but sadly could do nothing to help her.
At another parish, the pastor said it was built on the former site of satanic rituals. Every Halloween the Knights of Columbus had to patrol the grounds because the wiccans, witches or satan worshippers would return to do their rituals in the parish parking lot.  In door to door, I saw a lot of stuff. One poor man said he couldn’t do anything except what an entity in his house told him to do. Talk about lack of freedom! Another apartment the woman had poltergeists. Drawers would open and close by themselves. I sent the local Legion group back to bring her holy water and told them not to go into the house. I honestly think that was a mistake because shortly after that the Legion group shut down. One woman was in scientology, and I asked her what the religion gave her, and she said, “health.” I attempted to engage her in discussion, but she didn’t really respond. So I asked her what is your first name because in my mind, I was going to pray for her. The devil guessed what I was up to. Wow, she went from entirely calm and gentle to violent. We left. That was a sign of you know what. But perhaps one of the more humorous experiences in door to door was when we were in an apartment complex knocking on doors and a black cat suddenly appeared and started hissing at us. It was like we took one step towards the cat’s apartment and the cat hissed and backed up. We’d knock on the next door and it would hiss and back up. Finally, we got to his door, and the owner opened the door, the cat ran in and of course the cat’s owner didn’t want anything to do with the Catholic faith.
Re: others. The Eucharist/Mass is the source and summit of our faith. (I’m not saying the Great Commission is the source and summit of our faith. It is what we do after we leave Mass) There is no battle between the Bible and Tradition. Both support each other. Tradition is what Christ gave the 12 apostles verbally. Read Luke Chapter one. He addresses Theophilus and tells him he is about to write an orderly account of the life of Christ to support what Theophilus has already been taught orally. This is a reference to Tradition with a capital T. There is no new revelation after the time of the apostles. The faith that the Church teaches authentically is the oral tradition Jesus gave to the 12 apostles.  I like to think of it this way. Jesus didn’t write a book. He got 12 guys together and began to teach them. What he told them before he died, and after he ascended is the Oral Tradition of the Catholic Church. Out of that oral tradition, the Catholic Church wrote the Bible, collected the books on Jesus life that were authentic to the message they received from Jesus Christ. The New Catholic Catechism has the oral tradition of the Church, which is the public revelation handed down by the apostles to the Catholics Church, which has guarded it faithfully for 2,000 years. When we have a vision like at Fatima, that is private revelation. The Church approves certain private revelations if they absolutely do not contradict the public revelation. So there are many visions, but some have been rejected by the church. And there are many “gospels” but many have been rejected by the Church. So just because some archaeologist digs up a 4th century document that claims Jesus had a wife, it does not mean it’s true. They had heretics from the very beginning, and the job of the Church through the centuries has been to guard the Deposit of Faith, defined as the canonically approved Holy Bible and the Oral Tradition of the Church. When Pope John Paul II considered the issue of women priests he concluded that he did not have the authority to approve such a thing if he were going to guard the Deposit of Faith handed down to us by the apostles. Only the Catholic Church has preserved the true meaning of Scripture through the ages. You meet 7 day adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, they have a separate and different oral tradition than the one handed down to the 12 apostles. I met a 7 day adventist recently, he had shelves upon shelves of books written by the founder of that religion. He tried to tell me we could only trust the word of God in Scripture. He argued Scripture ALONE to justify his cult. After a fruitless hour of trying to twist the meaning of Scripture to meet his oral tradition, he finally gave up and tried to get me to read the book by the founder of his religion. (I had just kept showing him other passages in the Bible that contradicted worship on Saturday.) I looked at it, and I said, “I thought you believed in Scripture Alone? What is that?” He was frustrated. When we left I pointed at his shelves of books by the 7 Day Adventists, and I said, “Throw those out. Read the word of God, and ask God to explain it to you.”  But he was horrified at the idea. That means he was not willing to trust God, but only the oral tradition of the 7 Day Adventists. That is idolatry.  Every time my husband and I sat down to talk to talk to someone in these cults who said, “Scripture Alone,” we would use Scripture alone, but they would grab some other book by the founder of their false religion and try to argue from that.

Now for those purists out there, I am not suggesting that we can all interpret the Bible ourselves. No, I am clearly arguing for the Deposit of Faith, study of the Church’s authentic teachings on the Oral Tradition of the 12 Apostles, and Scripture. By the way, Scripture never says anything about Scripture “Alone.” In fact that passage in Luke chapter one, when he explains he is going to write an orderly account of what Theophilus has already learned orally, that is the Bible saying we must depend on Scripture and the Authentic Teaching of the Catholic Church.  But once a Catholic really knows their Catholic faith, they can read the Bible in all freedom and ask God to explain it to them. Outside of the Catholic Oral Tradition, you are swimming with the snakes and the charlatans. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

The word “jesuitical” implies sophistry, casuistry. Perhaps BC is simply trying to exercise - not exorcise - us. At any rate, many people never learn to reserve their skepticism for those things that are subject to rational proof or disproof. Instead, conditioned by their education, they exhibit credulity towards arguments with material and rational lineaments, and reserve skepticism for those things that lie beyond their ken. They are to be pitied.

Casting, you posted here:

“Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Oct 2, 2012 11:24 AM (EST):

@Joanp62:  You posted to Terrah James [“Catholics do not believe in the Bible alone.”]  Why not?  Do you think Terrah James needs to apologize for believing in God’s word?  What biblical inerrancies has sacred tradition has corrected?”

Reread your comment above. It sure sounds like you are questioning my statement that Catholics do NOT believe in the Bible ALONE.

I am not deceiving anyone here.

Thanks for the encouragement TforT.

Casting Crowns: We at least seem to agree politically. :)

Regarding my Church’s RCIA team, you yourself stated that you had a New Age nun on yours. You must know that it is a fact that many parishes and dioceses have been ‘taken over’ by more ‘progressive, spirit of Vatican II types over the last 40 years or more. Hopefully, the tide is turning and authentic Catholic teaching will return.

Insular? I have lived in several different cities and states in this country and over the past 50 years I have belonged to numerous parishes in many different dioceses. I honestly can’t remember ever hearing the term “The Great Commission” except from Protestant TV evangelists. Sorry!

Terah, no apology needed, I just misunderstood.

It does make a difference if Casting Crowns is Catholic because at first I thought he/she was, but then they questioned my statement to you that the Church is not Sola Scriptura. Assuming that they were Catholic- thinking the Church teaches Sola Scriptura seemed odd. Also, they appeared to agree with you that the “Great Commission” was like THE message of the Gospel, over and above the importance of the Eucharist and the Mass. (Didn’t sound Catholic to me)

There is a great difference between Catholic and other Christian denominations. First, let me say that Christian people love the Lord and are probably better Christians than many Catholics. But as to the Faith itself, and I thought I posted this before, the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith, whereas various Protestant denominations have discarded parts of original Christian beliefs (including books in the Bible) and added other stuff, like belief in a Rapture which was not believed by ANY Christian until about 125 years ago or so. The biggest, most major difference is that NONE of the Protestant Churches have the Eucharist.

In my post to Terah I meant Non-Catholic Christian people.

Dear all: Please, let me finish at least “Great Commission” subject here. I am not a cradle Catholic, so I lack some terminology. Since I desire the Truth and not people’s opinions, I look up stuff in pure Catholic sources. One is, of course, vatican.va site.

Please take a look here: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/Bapstist alliance/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20111020_baptist-comment_en.html

Next time, if you want to search for stuff at vatican.va google the following way in their search box:

“Great Commission” site:vatican.va

Blessings,
Greg

@Joanp62:  The message of the Gospel is not the Eucharist.  You know as well as I that people line up for Communion by the dozens every Sunday (and to a lesser extent during weekday Masses) merely as a rote exercise of ritual training since childhood.  The message of the Gospel is “forgiveness.”  Christ preached the “saving” Gospel for 3 years.  If the Eucharist was the focal point, Jesus wouldn’t have waited until His final night to reveal why He came.  Forgiveness is the key to the Gospel.  “For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”  Every man and woman need to have their sins forgiven so they can be born to new life.  THAT is the saving message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  What Jesus revealed to Nicodemus applies to all men and women.  In the same way, the “Living Water” was also revealed to to the Samaritan woman at the well.

Dear Casting Crowns: As a Catholic I will repeat after the Church:

CCC 1324: The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”

Read the rest here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

Now, forgiveness is something we are commanded by Christ to do. It is clear that we cannot be in Heaven with people we do not forgive, so this is something we must to do if we desire to be with Christ.
BTW. Christ never asked us if we would be willing to forgive. He COMMANDS us to forgive.

Blessings,
Greg.

PS. If you are a Catholic then you have now alternative - you can accept what the Catholic Church teaches, or reject it. If you reject it then there is no point to be part of the Church that tells you that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Why would be someone want to be part of a Church that claims to be infallible in faith and morals, which means that whatever the Church says in these subjects is Truth, and any different opinion is wrong. Why would someone want to be with the Church that claims that is being built by Christ and (this is hard food now,) IS Christ. The choice is yours.

I made my choice already. Not because of my intelligence which is not so high. Not because I am better than others, because I am not. I became Catholic because of Him, and only because of Him.

You definitively show that you believe God exists. Well, He does not believe you exist. He knows you. Do you know Him? If one knows Him then one desires Him. Not Heaven. But Him. And being with Him IS Heaven.

I understood what the Catholic Church teaches because I believed first.
When I did not full believe I did not understand many things, and I was questioning them. I have been proven wrong. And they the day came when I realized that I am known by Him because I was Loved by Him. And I felt in love in Him His Church, and, which may sound strange, in all His Creation including all the people regardless they are good or bad. Praised be to God, because it was not my own doing, and I am unable to make myself Love others or make others to Love me. God is Love. Amen.

@Susan Fox:  Thank you for your validation of the “Great Commission.”  The term “evangelization” to many Catholics means bringing or inviting someone to Mass or putting a “Catholic Radio” bumper sticker on their car which is, of course, nonsense.  Inviting someone to Mass who knows absolutely zilch re the gospel or only that some guy named Jesus lived 2,000 years ago will not accomplish anything.  We are called, we are *commissioned* as His Disciples to share the gospel with those who are lost and do not know the risen Christ.  Luke 19:10:  “For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.”  In Luke 4:18-19 Jesus read from Isaiah “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.  He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” ———The “poor” are the spiritually poor (it has nothing to do with finances).  “Freedom” is for prisoners in sin and “sight” is for those blind to truth—Truth being the person of Jesus the Christ (not some abstract truth).  @Joanp62, You need to share the GOOD NEWS—the Gospel of Jesus Christ before you can ever begin to starting talking about the Eucharist. Joanp62, your message of the gospel is one where you have the cart before the horse.

Casting Crowns, I did not say that the Eucharist was THE message of the Gospel. In fact, in an earlier post I listed many things that are the message of the Gospel. It is not just ONE thing.

I stand by what I have said regarding the “Great Commission and Evangelization”. I don’t see any difference between the two and do not agree with your “definition” of Evangelization. Also, I never said that we were NOT to share the Good News. But a big part of that Good News is the Eucharist- it is “The Source and Summit of Christian Life” as repeated in Greg’s post.

Lastly, CC, after calling me a liar and daring me to show evidence where you appeared to agree with Terah that the Church taught Sola Scriptura, and having now supplied that evidence in my post of today at 6:27am, now you conveniently ignore it?

Susan Fox, I really wish you and CC would read my posts before commenting on them. I never said that we were NOT to Evangelize. Please reread what I said. I also did not say that homilies were not for teaching, just that many Catholics expect to get everything they need to know about Church’s teaching from the homily and that is never enough.

Good for you that you are able to go door-to-door. Not everyone is called to do that, and quite frankly, I don’t think Jesus meant that we needed to approach people out of the blue at their front door. I also don’t think we are expected to just bring up the Gospel wherever we are at. It can be a major turn off to people and can hurt chances for sharing the faith. For me, I wait for the opportunities to arise and try to take advantage of them. For example, a woman at the soup kitchen where we volunteer asked me a question regarding Catholicism. She also had some misconceptions and it was a perfect opportunity to at least begin to share with her.

@Greg:  [“The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”]  I am not diminishing the Eucharist.  Far from it.  I submit, however, you would not come to the Eucharist without knowing *why* you come and what the bread and wine mean.  A man who has no need (nor interest) in having his personal sins forgiven FIRST will thus have no interest in the Eucharist.

Today, I am distraught.  It was uplifting to read Casting Crown’s post about sharing The GOOD NEWS - the Gospel of Jesus the Christ, before Catholics talk about anything else.  In order for them to be equipped to do that, Catholics must be properly taught the Christian faith.

A male family member that was non-Catholic (& I thought, Christian) married a Catholic woman about 12 years ago.  He converted to Catholic, shortly after their marriage, and they are raising their two children (both under 10 years old) to be Catholic.  By the way, I know in his RCIA program, his priest told him it was fine to use contraception. 

In discussing the Presidential debate with this couple last night, I was shocked when the mom told me they were raising the children to believe:
“God loves everyone”
“We all must enjoy equality in our country”
“That includes being able to marry whomever we want, even two men or two women.”  I found out their eldest child is in a classroom where one little girl has two mothers.  She was placed for adoption, and they are giving the child a “good home.”

This couple is raising their kids to believe it is normal and acceptable, and they appear to come from a parish where morals are either never discussed, or homosexual unions are actually embraced.  So it seems like there are 30,000 different Roman Catholic “denominations” out there too, as many as there are non-Catholic denominations.

What saddened me is my references to Scripture being THE REASON why we cannot go the way of Spain, Italy & all other countries that have accepted homosexual unions, were called “judgmental”.

The father told me I did not sound “Christ-like” to deny these people happiness.  He told me to “find a homosexual person you can show a kindness to during the week” and “Don’t fixate on this issue, look for Social Justice issues to work on.”

He did not accept the Bible as Holy Spirit inspired & said “Times have changed since it was written.”  Each and every time I tried to use Scripture as a reason to at least SPEAK UP against same sex marriage, he batted it down, pooh-poohing me.

When I converted to Roman Catholic, I did not sign away my right to: think, speak, READ the Bible, and LIVE in a manner that I know pleases God.  My memory is intact & I cannot help that I am Bible-literate.

I tried to make a point that we are losing FREE SPEECH in our country, if people stay quiet about what they find objectionable & it’s even worse when supposedly Catholic people embrace what God calls “sin”.

But I got nowhere with this man.  His Catholic wife is even worse - and she is around friends that think like her.  So I did not even broach the subject with her.  I also did not say a word about anything, in front of the two children, feeling the topic inappropriate.  But the couple were open about homosexual behavior being GOOD and normal.

Later, I tried to share the Gospel with the father, saying Jesus did not die so we can disobey Him or disregard a holy and eternal Triune Godhead.
I described what happened at Calvary to him: the sky going dark at 12 noon, the earthquake happening that ripped the veil from top to bottom in the Temple, the dead people rising from their graves, and the Roman Centurian saying, “Surely this WAS the Son of God!”

But his couldn’t-care-less attitude was like I was just telling him another Bible story from when he was in 3rd grade, one with which he was already way too familiar.  To what I was saying, he added, “I know - and the stone was rolled from the tomb…” It was like the Gospel bored him.

I am afraid to have to admit this, but in complete frustration, I said to him, “Catholics are so, so, so, IGNORANT!”

He looked stunned.  This is a very intelligent man.  But between him and his wife, they truly are biblically illiterate.  It’s no wonder their kids souls are in jeopardy.  They go to Mass every Sunday.  The couple is front and center at their parish. But what kind of Pulpit TEACHING are they getting, to tell their children that same sex marriage is good?  Where are the preachers and teachers of the Word of God, at Mass?

Folks: the Eucharist alone does not cut the mustard.  We must know we sin, and we must be repentent, turning FROM our old ways, and being transformed by the renewing of our minds, found in the word of God.  Only then can we be obedient to Him.  Only then will Christ’s sacrifice have been made on our behalf.

Getting back to the subject at hand.  The Occult is dangerous.  It’s also seductive.  Think about it for a minute, for very little effort you can get POWER; that thing we crave.  Short term thinking makes you believe there is no or minimal consequence.  It’s not just a parlor game or a deck of cards.  Heck you don’t even realize that you’re calling on evil.  You start relying on the occult practices more than you rely on and trust God.  I never knew it wasn’t ok or normal to practice the occult until I was compelled to pray one day because I felt so lost.  After my prayer, I decided to “contact my spirit guide” and saw it for what it really was, not the mask that I wanted to see.  Day 1 of my conversion happened there.  Is there left over stuff, sure there is!  It’s not pleasant, but it helps me to stay away from the occult, even when it’s tempting.  I was lucky in the fact that I didn’t need much intervention, I needed a lot of prayer and a blessing, and confession! 

Confession saves!

@Joanp62:  Let’s be clear.  I never said the Catholic church teaches Sola Scriptura.  What folly.  You know it and I know it.  Not once did I ever post they teach it.  What I objected to was your elitist approach toward new convert (Terrah James) —that her belief in the Bible is something you inferred is incomplete in her faith.  Since Terrah is *new* to Catholicism, you might want to grant her time to learn and absorb the richness of Catholic tradition instead of Lording it over people like a Catholic policewoman.

Terah James, A Roman Catholic Priest will never advise the use of contraceptives.  A legitimate priest will never absolve the sins of one who is birth controlling.  It is a hateful sin against all society, but most of all against God.

Dear Terah,
Do not be discouraged. Those people you were visiting were uncatechized Catholics. They are almost pagans. This is the need that Pope John Paul II saw when he spoke of the “New Evangelization.” In days past there were two focuses to Catholic evangelization, the first being to send missionaries to pagan peoples and countries to convert them. The second to support existing Catholic populations in their faith. The new evangelization is to people who are children of Christians and Catholics or baptized Catholics and Christians who actually live pagan lives. There is only one Catholic denomination, the Church that Jesus Christ founded,  but there are heretics and dissidents in the church with us, and some are in very high positions of authority in the Church. Remember your Bible readings! Isn’t there something about God letting the weeds grow up with the good grain, and then separating them at the harvest—after this life is over.  That’s why you have to study what the church actually teaches, not what some “Catholic” tells you it teaches. Go to the Vatican web site, get a copy of the New Catholic Catechism. Reading these things will enrich your Bible study. The perfect Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation coming down from heaven as a bride. Guess what. That church is full of us when we are dead! Yes, you will find the perfect Catholic Church in the next life, but in the meantime you have to suffer, and talking to those front row Catholics was a suffering. However, always see the person of Christ in the people you meet even if they are wrong and annoying. (And I’m not saying you didn’t see HIm in their faces) Love and eventually they will come around. Thanks for witnessing to the truth.
Greg thanks for sharing the New Catholic Catechism with us to settle the issue of the Eucharist is the source and summit of Catholic life. Casting Crowns thanks for sharing those beautiful passages on evangelization from the Scripture.
Joanp62, Sorry i did read your post, but I must have misunderstood the nuance of what you were saying. I agree with this statement 100 percent: Catholics expect to get everything they need to know about Church’s teaching from the homily and that is never enough. Susan Fox   http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

CC, let ME be clear. Terah stated that we got all our facts from the Bible. That was not true, we also have Tradition. You then quoted my sentence stating that we do not believe in the Bible Alone and you said “why not”? Be honest. That sure sounds like you are disagreeing with my statement (which is Church Teaching) When I replied that it was Church teaching and not my opinion, you responded that it was my opinion. How else am I to take those responses from you?

Elitist? Hardly. Terah made a statement on a Catholic forum about the Church that was not true. We need to speak up and clarify these things. Also, you call me elitist, yet ignore a Convert who has made a few posts trying to tell the Church what it should be doing and not “wasting its time on canonizing saints.” I found that to be a lot of hubris for any Catholic, let alone a ‘new’ Catholic convert to be claiming to tell the Church what it should be doing. Especially on something that the Church has done for ages and is an important part.

Lastly, in reviewing the comments, you claimed that I said the Bible wasn’t necessary for salvation. Please show me where I wrote that if you can.

Terah, it is very sad that there are so many Catholics out there like the family you describe. Many have fallen prey to the lies of the World. It happens all the time that we are the bigots and judgemental ones for trying to follow the Bible and Church Teaching, which is following Christ.
They have chosen the wide, easy road that will lead to destruction. It is so much easier to just go along with the way the world thinks, which we know is not God’s ways. It even says so in Scripture that the World and our Lord do not mix and that the ways of the world are not God’s ways.
We don’t have 30,000 different Catholic denominations, but thanks to the last 40 years or more of poor catechesis and watering-down of the faith, we do seem to have 2 types of Catholics. Those like the family you described, and those of us who believe the Bible is the Word of God and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and are truly trying to follow Jesus.

Anyway, it sounds like you handled it very well. Don’t let it upset you too much, all you can do is pray for them, maybe make small sacrifices for their change of heart, and be prepared for more opportunities to come up to speak with them again.

Also CC, as a fellow faithful Catholic, we are on the same side. Yet, you continue to jump all over everything I post and defend the errors posted by Terah. Yes, she is a ‘new’ Catholic, and will not fully absorb the richness of our faith in one day, but how will she learn if we do not correct her where she is wrong or confused? And I do not correct her like a ‘Catholic policewoman”. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to defend poor, defenseless Terah, who appears to be able to take care of herself quite well.  Also, I am not the only one who has questioned and corrected some of Terah’s misconceptions.

CC, I find you to be very disingenuous and dishonest regarding what you post in black and white, and what you “claim” you said. If you can’t be civil and polite, then please mind your own business when I comment to someone else.

Dear Terah James. And where is Christ in this picture? On the Cross bleeding. In your pain you are closer to Him than ever.

The problem was always in orthodoxy, not orthopraxy. Since day one. People sin not because they don’t know what sin is. The hearts are darkened because of their sins. And people are afraid to Confess, and others including me, are failing to tell them that God loves them very much, and will forgive them if they come to Him and Confess. We fail to do it not because we do not know what to do, but because of our sins - especially pride - which expresses itself through a desire to be “nice” and “likened” by others. We were never asked to be “nice.” We were asked to be “holy!”, “perfect as Heavenly Father is perfect.” The way Christ was perfect. Look at the Cross. This is the price, and your pain is nothing else than part of this price. Remember - there are weeds in this garden. Pray you, and will not have these weeds in our hearts too!

We fail in remembering that our role is to bring people to Jesus. We bring them to the Church and then ... instead of shutting up and letting them to talk to Jesus and listening to Him we are yapping to them keeping them focused on us. How pride, how uncharitable! I am NOT FREE OF GUILT too!!!

In the Church, we are NOT the most important people! It is Him, and ONLY HIM. Then why are we making a House of Donuts, a bazaar, out of the House of Prayer?!!! SILENCE, PRAYER, LISTENING, REPENTANCE, in the Name of Christ!!!!

I heard from someone, whom I asked no to talk at the Church so loud, so other people could not pray that “it is important to know whom we minister to.” YES, but is also important for WHOM we minister, and WHERE we do it. We minister for GOD, and not to feel good about ourselves. When someone is in the Church, let that person talk to Christ. ONLY to Christ. Not to us. And that person should listen to Him, and not to us. Is there anything better we can give that person than Christ can?! Why do we have to, (and I am guilty of that too,) interrupt people’s prayers because we have to something ‘important’ to say to them?! What can be more important?! Nothing! If we need to speak with them then why we do not wait for them outside? Because we are impatient and full of pride and other stuff you-know-which. That is why. We can’t stand waiting for others. We have to be first and most important. More even than God!

There is only ONE WAY to have these things changed. His name is Christ. We have to let be changed by Him. He will do the rest. Trust in Him. He will do it. Your role is only to say to Him “Your way, not mine! All I have and all I am is yours! Do with it whatever you please.” And He WILL do it. I promise. Have faith, and rejoice. Feel pain, offer it to Him, tell Him that you understand, and thank Him for much more pain He endured for you, and me, than what you, and I feel now.

Blessings!
Greg

Dear Terah: If I may add, Christ will always be with us. He promised that. And He prayed that the gates of hell will not prevail. All His prayers are answered! No matter how big the storm, how big the attack, and how big the sin will be here. The Church is Holy not because of us, but because of Him. It is not a museum for the Saints but a hospital for the sick!

Look at the history. We had bad Popes. Really bad Popes. Look at Borgias for example! See, when Henry the VIIIth decided to divorce, he decided to create his own church, and become a head of it. And then he changed a rule that divorce is okay as long as ‘...blah blah blah…’. When Popes had mistress (I don’t remember now their names, and I know there was one, maybe two,) they had authority to ‘proclaim’ that it is okay to have such (“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven”,) but they did not do that. Why?! Because they could not. They could easily change these things to feel ‘better’ about themselves (and boy, they were trying to feel good, haven’t they?!) Why they could not do that?! Why a Pope, who was ‘corrupt’ could not change any of the teaching of the Church?! Why? - because it is not our Church. It is not us who build it. The Pope is the Head of the Visible Church. It is Christ who is the real Head of the Church. Christ did not say “You will build your Church,” or “I will build your Church”, not mentioning that he did not say “I will build my Churches.” He said, “I will build MY CHURCH,” and He builds it using us as the material, and how bad material he has to work with!!!, and how awesome the Church He has already built! With all of us sinners! And after 2000 years, we still can go to the teaching of the Church, and in confidence tell that even if some priests (not many,) and some Bishops (not many,) fail to live the Truth, and tells us the Truth, we HAVE access to unchangeable Truth.
Today, the Church could become an instant worldly success overnight. If only She said “divorces are okay, homosexual marriages are good, contraception is awesome, priestesses are cool.” But the church does not say that despite, as some people say is “corrupt.” Because the Body of Christ - Christ Himself - cannot be corrupt. It is many of us, who are corrupt, and stop being His Body, while staying, in anger and warth, in the Church calling ourselves Catholics, and doing the evils work instead of do what Judas did - leave.
The Church will not change Dogmas because God does not change. Amen and thanks be to God!

Starting Oct 11th, the Year of Faith will start as stated in: APOSTOLIC LETTER
“MOTU PROPRIO DATA” PORTA FIDEI of the SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20111011_porta-fidei_en.html
Starting with paragraphs numbered 11, Pope Bendict has asked each of us to: “...rediscover and study the fundamental content of the faith that receives its systematic and organic synthesis in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. “
Parents have the prime obligation to accurately teach their children so they must know the truth.
Encourage everyone to read the CCC - even non Catholics who think they know what the Church teaches..
The CCC must be adhered to by all Catholics in entirety.
For those who need more info - go to: http://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com or
search ”  What Catholics REALLY Believe Source “.
All readers should ask themselves two questions:
1) When was the last time I read the CCC in entirety?
2) When was the last time I enocuraged others to read it?
Others will believe the CCC before they will believe us as individuals.

Interesting to me in this article, is that those possessed by the Devil recognize the Body and Blood of Christ when they see it.
The Devil always recognized Jesus in the New Testament.
Now those who need exorcism of the Devil still recognize Jesus in the Eucharist.

Dear Terah and others: I have realized (read God let me understood) that this priest about whom you wrote DID know the teaching of the Church. He FAILED to live the Truth, though. The failure had to come from sin. He showed he stopped understanding why the Church teaches what she teaches, and know, in his sin, including pride, teaches own opinions and interpretations. He is a great sign from God to us that we will be the same without sincere confession. It also warns is that if we do what this priest does, we too are way deep into our sins and we need real, true confession. Thank you for sharing! Blessings, Greg

Joanp62 & Terah & others. Hope this helps.
There are 4 types of Catholics - FAITHFUL CATHOLICS, Catholic Heretics, Catholic Schismatics, and Ignorant Catholics.  In the literate USA there are no excuses for the last three.
CCC : ” 2089 INCREDULITY is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.  HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; APOSTACY is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; SCHISM is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. “
Everyone must ask all others to read the CCC to lessen heresy, schism, and scandal within the Church. We must all strive for Unity.
“ ….the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.”  – Pope John Paul II (CCC pg xiv)

@Joanp62:  [“As a matter of fact, the Church came before the Bible!”]  True,—before all the book were eventually assembled.  However, the gospel (as Paul writes) is “the power of God unto salvation.”  The gospel, though, came before the Church.  Tradition is fine, the Church practices and teaches Tradition.  Not a problem.  However, you have failed to demonstrate where Paul is incorrect and that the gospel alone of Christ Jesus is lacking any sufficiency for salvation.

To everyone that had kind words for me about my unfortunate conversation w/ a family member: thank you.  I will hang in there, and I will keep the faith, spreading The Good News of the Gospel, in season and out of season, and with not one jot or tittle put in or taken out.

To clarify something- I am not a recent convert. I converted, prior there being so much news about the mismanagement of so many among our Roman Catholic leadership, and the cover-up that was the modus operendi of the rank and file priests that kept secrets of their clergy brethern.

I had no idea about any of that.  So to all the Catholic insider drama, I am new to it.  Though in speaking with others that have been life-long Catholics, many of them either knew something was wrong in River City, or they suspected it.

Like a friend told me her son (in the boys school) knew a girl (in the girl’s school) and the girl once mentioned “her mother’s boyfriend”, to my friend, and she meant their parish priest.  At that time, 35 years ago, she overlooked it.  Never asked any questions.  But hindsight is 20/20.  I’m new to all that.  But I view it with the spectacles of the Year 2012 too, and not in the 1970’s.

I can’t help but wonder that, if more people spoke out in the 1970’s and said: “THIS IS WRONG.  This does not honor God.” if perhaps today, we would have a more God-honoring society, and our morals would not be in the toilet.  Further, in the year 2012, everyone should know by now, that women cannot be priests.  The call for that is so very old. 

CC,
“However, you have failed to demonstrate where Paul is incorrect and that the gospel alone of Christ Jesus is lacking any sufficiency for salvation.”

Again, tell me where I said this in the first place. You appear to be inferring things into my posts that I have not said.

However, the Bible also states that we are saved by faith in Christ, not the Bible. Also, the Bible itself, read on its own, is not sufficient for understanding. Remember Philip and the Ethopian who was reading Isaiah. Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading, and the fellow answered “How can I unless someone interprets (explains) it to me?” For Catholics, we have the Church to give us the proper explanation so we don’t have all sorts of different understandings, like other Christians do.

I have a question,  more than a comment re occult practices :  Is there ever an occasion for the use of black candles in Catholic Rituals?  I’m asking because I’m also a new Catholic and yesterday my husband and I came across something so out of place.  We’ve just moved to a new home in Northern Ca., a very rural area and had driven into the nearest town to explore.  We came upon a pioneer museum located in an older historical bldg. and went in. The place was deserted except for a young family leaving and the docent who was a rather frail elderly woman with some hearing loss.  She was very nice and helpful, but it was difficult to communicate with her. We were in the basement of the building looking at the exhibits,  which were pretty much what one would expect to see from that time period,  when we came upon a Crucifix leaning up against the divider between a horse drawn fire apparatus and an old printing press.  It was so out of place,  unlabeled,  I think made from brass,  appx 7ft in height and a candelabra.  Nine candle holders and in each a black tapered candle.  My husband,  Cradle Catholic said it was from a church,  but doesn’t remember ever seeing black candles used. Under what circumstances would a church donate a Crucifix to an out of the way museum?  Or could this have come from someplace other than a church?  It seems so disrespectful to see that shoved off to the side,  leaning over as it was.  Any ideas from those more knowledgeable than us?

Dear Terah,
I lived through the priest scandal. When I was 13, (1966) my pastor went trolling for me (my father was dead and I had no brothers or sisters), but my brave mother made sure she accompanied us on all our outings, and therefore since I basically thought my old pastor was boring, she ended up sitting on the picnic blanket with him while I played on the swings in the park. We only know what he was up to because of the fact that Mom eventually met and comforted some girls who lived down the street and were victimized by the priest. Postscript, he repented. He really repented. But the last I heard he was living in a nursing home, already repented, and 40 years after his crimes, he was defrocked. God let me read it in a newspaper in another state! I rarely read the local newspaper. There is injustice in everything here. However, as to how to stop it, it wasn’t in the purview of the laity because we didn’t realize it was happening at the time it was happening even if it was happening to us! But the bishops knew. I can only imagine their thinking. I don’t really understand it. They must have thought people would leave the church if others found out. Obviously, many of them weren’t bright because they thought they could rehabilitate a sexual predator. My husband said, we need more manly men in the priesthood as any good father would know what to do quickly if they found their child threatened in such a manner. And the bishops should regard us a their children. But that the scandal came out in the way it did means there was a whole lot of unconfessed sin because if you don’t confess your sins, God will reveal them to others.  The primary problem was the seminary. There were some horrible abuses in the training in the seminary. I have a friend who sent her son to become a priest, and he came back a homosexual. He repented. He died from AIDs as a young man in the grace of God.
I think the seminaries have improved since then. Our Lady of Garabandal (not yet approved or disapproved by the Church) predicted this was happening in the 1960s. They say she gave up appearing because no one was listening. Also I forget which pope, but it was in the late 1800s, he heard a conversation between Satan and God. Satan asked God to give him the Church for 100 years, boasting he could destroy it. God agreed, and when the pope heard it he made us all say the St. Michael Prayer after every Mass, but sometime in the mid-1900s we all abandoned the practice. God allows these things for a reason, and He always brings good out of evil. The 100 years are over. The Church survived. We begin a year of Faith. May God be praised. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

It saddens me that so many people are tormented by this backwards way of thinking.  Are there possessions?  I’ve seen them.  Are they from believing in God in a different way than Catholics?  Or even Christians?  No.  They are not.  I am a whole lot closer to God in my faith by turning away from the Catholic church, communing with God, and honoring Her in all things.  Most of what the Catholics believe are concepts taking from previous religions and faiths.  Even many of the early saints are Celtic Gods and Goddesses.  So blaming this on “occult” practices is uninformed of their own beginnings.  As for Christianity in general, ANY religion that forces its doctrine on a group of people and kills them if they don’t obey is nothing more than an organized bully that doesn’t believe in its own faith.

Lina, the early Christian Saints were real, live, people. On some we may not have a lot of info., but they were not made up.

Human beings will sin.  Look at Judas Isacariot - a chosen Apostle, and even St. Peter denying Christ 3 times.
The devil/demons exist.  Jesus said so in the New Testament.
We must never put our Faith in other human beings, only in Jesus and the Church He insitituted.
Read a Catholic “Bible and the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition” for the truth of what the Catholic Church teaches.  This is what we must live by, not the example of sinners.
Each of us must ask ourselves 2 questions.
1) When was the last time I read the CCC in entirety?
2) When was the last time I encouraged others to read the CCC?

Dear Lina: I’m truly sorry reading your post. Don’t you miss Jesus in Eucharist? Don’t you miss His Wedding Banquet where He offers Himself completely to His Bride? He has never left us despite our wrong doing. He is faithful to us despite all the abuses. The Catholic Church is not a museum for saints but hospital for the sick. I am here not because of the people but for the people, and not because of me but because of Him. Please, come back home.

@Joanp62:  [“You appear to be inferring things into my posts that I have not said.”]  Reading you comments (NOW), it is good to see you agree now you are saved by faith (as was taught during the apostolic age).  Terrah James made no statement the Bible saves anyone.  She only pointed out her faith in the Bible as a factual source.  Your response regarding reliance upon “tradition” (with the Bible) only points out that Catholics who cling so much to tradition is a false starter.  Tradition is fine when supported by evidence and not simply developed by tribal adoption.  Good and sound tradition should be taught, practiced and handed down to each succeeding generation.  We will be in agreement, thus, when we say there is nothing in tradition which produces or imputes salvation to the believer whether she/he is Catholic or Christian.

@Casting Crowns Through Christ’s passion and His death on the cross, as manifested through the resurrection, we have been redeemed from sin. The way that this grace of redemption is meted out is through the Church and the sacraments entrusted to her, most principally in the participation in Christ’s everlasting sacrifice through the sacrament of the holy Eucharist. You can’t separate the two doctrines. However, I doubt we seriously disagree…I have a feeling it’s more a matter of different emphases.

Casting Crowns, never mind. We just are unable to communicate with each other. Take care.

Also, CC, I will stick by the importance of Tradition, without quotes and with a Capital T. Tradition goes together with the Bible in the Catholic Faith.

@Joan62:  I never said the saints were “made up” but they are converted from early Pagan faiths so as to bring more Pagans to Christianity.  One very prominent one is Brighid, my own patron Goddess.  She is known as Brigit in the Catholic faith.  Her shrine in Kildare with an eternal flame was tended for centuries by her priestesses, until they were murdered by Christians and the site desecrated by the erection of a cathedral.  Why is it that Christians do not know or understand their own beginnings.

Black Candles sounds like the wrong way worship or at best , hopefully,an ignorant person’s idea of a Halloween decor.

Lina, as far as I know, St. Brigid was a real person:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02784b.htm

So how could she have been taken or ‘converted’ from an early Pagan faith? Many Catholics do know the history of their Church. Why is it that so many Pagans wrongly attribute Catholic beliefs to paganism?

Our saints were real, flesh and blood people, not myths.

@Joanp62:  I agree Tradition is important.  On that we can agree. We apparently disagree on the level of importance.  Liturgical practices are part of Tradition for they honor and bring reverence to the Lord.  This is good.  Celebrating Holy Days are part of Tradition as well as remembering past saints of the Church.  Even so, Jews also celebrate High Holy Days in Jewish Tradition but there is no salvation in the practice or exercise of these feasts.  My point is that there is nothing in Tradition which provides salvation for the Believer.  Salvation is only granted by the gospel of Jesus (the Christ).  For without Calvary and the Resurrection there is no salvation.  Unless I have misunderstood you, I am unable to grant Tradition as having equal weight with the gospel.  Security in Christ comes only from the gospel of Jesus.

@Scaevola:  You’re very likely correct re “emphasis.”  You wrote:  [“this grace of redemption is meted out is through the Church and the sacraments”].  I agree, but take a less restricted view.  We have biblical examples of God’s grace rained down among people in both the OT and NT for purposes known only to the Father.  Thus, I hold that God’s grace is not limited only to dispensation by the Church.  The blood of Christ, the grace of God, can be applied wherever and to whomever He so chooses.  And when you say the “Church”—my hope is that you mean the entire Body of Christ—all Believers in Christ, and not only the Catholic Church.  Countless Christian people proclaim sincere, honest blessings and grace they too have received in their own lives even though not Catholic.  Because they are not Catholic doesn’t mean it’s a cheaper brand of grace.

@Lina: What amazes me is how neopagans romanticize their own history and yet accuse the Christian Community of being ignorant to their own. Whether or not one believes that Jesus was God Incarnate, one cannot dispute the social conditions that existed in the Roman Empire during his lifetime. Women were nothing more than property. One girl child to a family was all that was allowed. Any additional girl babies were thrown out on the manure pile to die of exposure. Women were illiterate and kept out of sight. Children as young a 6 yrs. old were sold as sex slaves; and those “so called temple priestesses” were prisoner prostitutes, kept because the male elite of that time believed that sex was a cure for venereal diseases(especially sex with a young virgin, the younger the better). Jesus was not crucified because he wanted to start a new religion, he was crucified because he was speaking out against the caste system of the day with all of its ugly pracitices, especially those pracitces which harmed women, children and the lower classes. He was disrupting the social order. As for the so-called romantic practices of Pagan Europe, may I suggest that you read, “The Golden Bough” by Gerald Gardner. This is not religious, but an anthropolical study of agrarian practices in both Europe and Asian Nations. Just how did the pagans of that time fertilize their fields? The beginning of the women’s movement, did not begin in 11th century Europe, it began when Jesus of Nazareth planted the seeds. All religion aside, paganism is not any less culpable than Christianity or any other religion when it comes to committing atrocities throughout history, but, our system of law is based on Christian teachings. Christian teachings that began with Jesus of Nazareth and are embedded within the Sermon on the Mount. Neopaganism is not the “Old Religion” that they claim to be. It is a mishmosh of world religions, drawn from Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Ignatian Spirituality. The psychologist that is frequently quoted by pagans, Carl Jung, his work concerning the collective unconcious was taken from the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises aka Jesuits aka Roman Catholic Priests. What the pagans do, is attempt to claim ancient beginnings that were peace filled and wonderful until those nasty Christians ruined it for them…........that’s a lie. If you are sincerely interested, don’t even go to the Bible, but do your own fact checks. There are many excellent resources out there. Take the time to explore historical and anthropological evidence. There are archaeologists out there making discoveries on a daily basis. As for any atrocities committed in the name of any religion, religions, all religions are made up of human beings. There is no one perfect religious system. That’s also what Jesus taught when he warned against the scribes and the pharisees. Been there. Done that.

Susan Fox, Thank you for sharing your story with us.  You are a lifetime Catholic, like a friend of mine that also shares memories with me, about her growing up Catholic. 

I will be as delicate as possible, as childhood memories are sensitive topics, even as an adult.  Consider this, with the lens of an adult and in the year 2012:  an elderly pastor should have *nothing in common* with a 13 year old girl, requiring them to ever be together at a public park.

If your mom was on picnic blanket with that priest, and it happened more than once, while you were on the swings, and your mom is still alive, please consider that perhaps your mom was a target of his immature affections too?  Maybe nothing happened, but conversation.  But it would behoove you to ask, if you can do so tactfully. Perhaps there was a comment that made her feel uncomfortable? 

Many priests are emotionally stunted - grooming anyone that will pay them attention - male or female adults, and teenagers, mostly, (fewer are pedophiles that go after children.)  Many priests/bishops know and kept the secrets of their “priest-brothers”.  Too many follow orders, such as Monsignor Lynn did, by following the orders of Cardinal Bellelaqua.

It’s also troubling you mentioned a mom “sent” her son to be a priest, and he allowed himself to become a homosexual in the seminary, and later developed AIDS.

He should be a MAN, having chosen the priesthood himself and he should have had a true calling.  This male you describe sounds impressionable and not yet grown up.  He allowed himself to be swayed.

MEN are not led by anyone.  Men lead.  (Like your husband, who sounds like a winner! Knowing that bishops and other clergyMEN protect women and children, by nature!)

Men of God are in His word, knowing right from wrong - bold and they have courage, coming from the Holy Spirit that resides within them.  Too many priests/bishops are led by the nose, and by a lot of pushy parish women - needing to have mothers still caring for them.  It’s not normal. 

Clergy abuse is not a new thing, so if Mary spoke of it in an apparition, it’s old news.  St. Peter Damian wrote about it in his “Book of Gomorrah”, complaining about homosexual priests and minor aged males in his day.

Plus, heterosexual priests had women on the side then, and as recently as in our days.  Think about it—the majority of the priests and bishops removed from (at least active) ministry recently, have been cases where priests impregnated or were having sexual relationships with women. 

That’s why I mention your mother, Susan. Perhaps she was a target of the priest that was defrocked?  There may be a delicate way for you to bring it up to her, because if it was a regular situtation for her to be on a picnic blanket with this pastor, while you were on the swings, there may be more to it than meets the eye.

Lastly, there is a difference between being repentant, and being “sorry” one got caught.  Most of these men are just sorry they got caught.  News yesterday shows us how most of them think: note Jerry Sandusky’s comments.
He does not get it.  He does not understand the magnitude of his actions. And he was just a sports hero.  For clergy - many lay people think of them as Jesus, and therein lies the big danger.

Susan, you wrote: “However, as to how to stop it, it wasn’t in the purview of the laity because we didn’t realize it was happening at the time it was happening even if it was happening to us!” ***********

That is so telling - potential (or real) abuse WAS happening TO you, and yet, you did not see it.  Susan - are those conditions still like this today?  What have we Catholics learned, as a result of this crisis?  St. Peter Damian tried to correct the abuses in his day.  In the year 2012, ought not we all be responsible for speaking up?  For seeing that NO ONE is abused by any priest, be they even an adult woman or man (or a teen)?

Casting Crowns, you still seem to be confusing what you think is my opinion or my emphasis on Tradition and what the Church teaches.” With the Catholic Church Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single, sacred deposit of the Word of God.” CCC 97.  See here:

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism-bible-and-tradition

So, your thinking that Tradition does not have equal weight with the Gospel is NOT Catholic teaching. If you are a convert from Protestantism, I can see where you may be having some trouble with this, but I’m sorry you are incorrect.

@Casting Crowns I agree with you in that God can spread His saving grace abroad to whomever He chooses, before and after the temporal event of Christ’s death. God is not restricted to the sacraments of the visible Church, though He has given them to us as the ordinary means of being united to Him and being cleansed of sin. However, I would say that such graces, no matter to whom they are given nor when they are given, are only given through Christ’s mystical body, the Church. And yeah, as a Catholic I do mean the Catholic Church.
**
TL;DR All saving grace unqualifiedly is granted through the Catholic Church.

Dear Terah,
I think the pastor gave up on me after a couple of outings with my mother and myself because my mother was such a good guardian. (This is a good point to remember this scandal was able to take place because of broken families and no strong father) She and Father were in my view the whole time, there was nothing untoward. I distinctly remember him in our kitchen before we left for the park wearing a goofy hat and trying to get my attention. I really thought his actions were totally weird. I was completely oblivious. My mother had many interactions with this pastor without me, and she never felt uncomfortable. They did very politely clash. She wanted to start the Legion of Mary. He refused for 20 years. She made a formal polite appointment every year for 20 years and asked permission, and he said, “No.” She overheard him one year telling the housekeeper the Legion of Mary would never be in that parish. He would never permit it. As soon as the bishop got around to moving him, the next pastor permitted it. And the Legion of Mary was started in that parish. It was a small town and they roughly had 15 returns to the Catholic faith every year.  I was in college when she met young women my age who had been sexually abused by this priest about the time I was 13. So it was only then that she put two and two together and realized all his friendship efforts to a widowed mother and daughter, age 13, were not really “friendship.” Then I don’t think she told me until years later. I have no bad memories of this priest except his sermons were atrocious. “As we are teeing off in the great golf course of life, what will our scorecard show?” That’s a quote I remember. But it was very funny because after college I was a news reporter for the San Diego Union (early ‘80s) when this whole thing was first coming into the open. And one of the reporters investigating it, finding out that I was Catholic kept asking me if I was aware of any sexual abuse in the church. I kid you not Terah, in my mind I thought of THIS old fuddy duddy pastor and thought “Never, not Father so-and-so.” He was our pastor for 20 years. I thought, “He would never dream of doing things like that.” And I told the reporter, I really didn’t believe these things were taking place. But later I found out this was exactly the priest who did abuse little girls. He was officially defrocked by his diocese like about 2004 for crimes he allegedly committed in 1966. I was one of his intended victims, and I never realized it until my mother met his other victims personally. Believe me Terah, I have been a whistle blower in my life, and when bad things happened I reported it through the proper channels and privately to the proper authority.  My mother herself was a real estate broker, and never would have hesitated to go the bishop if she realized something like this was going on down the street. Mother is dead, but being an only child with no father there was no secrets between us. We were best friends.
As to whether the priest really repented, that is between God and him, we can’t judge, but my mother preferred to think the best of the situation and she seemed to know what happened to him later and the state of his soul. Even if he didn’t repent, getting defrocked in the nursing home is kinda late don’t you think?

So I guess it was not in the purview of the laity to do anything about this because when these crimes occurred the only one who would have been informed was the bishop. If it happened my my child, I would have gone privately to the bishop and informed him, and then to the Papal Nuncio if I got no redress. Actually, I probably would have pressed charges with the police, but I suspect the families of these young victims were probably pressured to keep quiet lest the scandal harm the Church itself. Being loyal Catholics many probably did keep quiet. It was their children. They were harmed enough without having to relive the whole thing publicly.

I am aware of another similar situation in another state because last Thanksgiving I spent two hours visiting with a mother from a parish where the pastor was subsequently excommunicated.  And she said that she was completely brainwashed by this priest (he was incredibly popular all over the city and worked with youth.) For years when he was accused, but not found guilty yet, good Catholics would insist to me that this priest could never do anything like that.  Really really good Catholics. From this all I can conclude is it was like a blanket was over our eyes, and it was going on right in front of our eyes but we couldn’t see it. That’s the best way I can describe it. God lifted the blanket and the crimes were exposed. It’s good they were exposed.

Can it happen today? The Vatican is reforming our seminaries. They are making a very serious effort at it. They are not ordaining practicing gays in most dioceses. But anywhere you have vulnerable young people with no father, or over trusting parents, you have the potential for abuse. The best thing to do is teach your children to talk to you. I was actually abused once briefly by a teenage camp counselor in a secular situation when I was seven years old, but I went right home and told my mother. He didn’t work with kids after that. As I understand it, there has also been a lot of sexual abuse of children by Protestant pastors and public school teachers, even coaches like the one just sent to prison. I suspect the incidences in the Protestant Church were not reported publicly right away because they were trying to save the reputation of their church.  I remember reading about one serial abuser who was a very popular Protestant minister up in Seattle. It was a big scandal with a lot of victims. Why were there so many victims? Poor discernment. Very poor discernment. Just like with this famous coach —a lot of people knew but didn’t do anything. If anyone knows of something like this, and they don’t tell someone in authority, they need to confess it. It falls under the list of sins of omission.  I really enjoy talking to you. God bless you. Susan Fox

@Joanp62: [“your thinking that Tradition does not have equal weight with the Gospel is NOT Catholic teaching.”]  Doesn’t that strike you as odd?  When it comes to Tradition versus that of Christ’s very own words in the gospel you and the Catholic church still wish to give Tradition the same equality?  Again, Tradition and practices are fine, but nothing in Tradition provides for salvation.

@Scaevola:  [“All saving grace unqualifiedly is granted through the Catholic Church.”]  From your Catholic perspective I understand why you would hold this view.  You’re Catholic and that’s all you know and what you’ve been taught.  It’s rather myopic, though, in light of your bretheren who are equally (if not more) devoted fellow Christians who love Christ whom are not Catholic.  I have several friends and neighbors who are Baptists and Evangelicals.  These brothers and sisters are full members of the Body of Christ in their own marriages, families and church life.  Are you saying God’s grace comes to them—but *only* via a circuitous route through the Catholic church?

Casting Crowns, ahhh, so you are NOT Catholic. Well, you have shown yourself to be rather deceptive, but I don’t expect you to believe the teachings of the Catholic Church, then.  But no, it does not strike me as odd at all. From the earliest Church fathers, it was Sacred Tradition and Scripture. They are like 2 sides of the same coin. Even St. Paul wrote that we were to hold fast to what he told them, either in writing or orally. The bible itself does not even say that the Bible Alone is all that is necessary. But the Protestants think that, and that explains why they do not all agree in their beliefs and interpretation of Scripture and why they have so many denominations.

If the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus, then yes, it is through the merits of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church, that anyone can be saved, whether they are Catholic or not. It is how God chose to do things. So, for example, a Hindu could be saved, but it is not their Hindu faith that would save them, but the merits of Jesus’ death on the cross and of His Holy Catholic Church. Jesus only founded ONE Church.

CC,

Good answer Joanp62. Casting Crowns, the Scripture was assembled by the Church using Oral Tradition handed by the 12 apostles. We wouldn’t have the Bible without Oral Tradition. There were many books written, but the Church chose which ones to be included as faithful to the message that Jesus handed down orally to his apostles. As I mentioned before the biblical basis for Oral Tradition is Luke Chapter 1, the first few lines when St. Luke explains he is preparing an orderly written account of what Theophilus has already been taught ORALLY. Jesus didn’t write a book. He got 12 guys together and taught them. They passed the message down to each succeeding generation. Without the Church guarding the DEPOSIT OF FAITH (ORAL and Written Tradition), then Christian groups do not have the fullness of truth. Example: Which Church is standing firm against contraception and abortion and euthanasia, whereas before 1930 they all did?
Joanp62 is correct. The New Catholic Catechism teaches that people can be saved who are not Catholic, but when they are they are saved by Jesus Christ through His Church. So a little Hindu in the bushes, never hearing of Christianity, or even one in New York whose family is so prejudiced they’d never consider Christianity, yet living a good life according to the 10 commandments can reach the judgement, accept Jesus Christ and go to heaven through the merits of his suffering passion and death, re-presented in the Roman Catholic Mass. That said, a Hindu - when saved—is saved through Jesus Christ. Yet one particular Hindu may live a better life than one particular practicing Catholic. The Hindu may go to heaven because of Jesus’ sacrifice, but the Catholic may not. But in the example of the Protestants you mentioned I know many Protestants that are better people than me or most Catholics. But when they are saved it will be through the Catholic Church. The Muslims who blew up the twin towers, though they may have been sincere Muslims, could not attain heaven without last minute repentance because they broke the 10 Commandments. These are written on the heart of man. So everyone has access to them. But ultimately God is the judge. We don’t have to draw any conclusions about individuals. God bless you. Susan Fox
By the way my husband has an excellent article on the Deposit of Faith in our blog, called “The Deposit of Faith” at http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com It is. one of the most read articles on our blog. He is a graduate student working towards a masters in theology at the Augustine Institute in Denver.

@Joanp62:  It is indeed odd.  Are you saved by Tradition?  No.  Tradition and Scripture are not two sides of the same coin but you must keep insisting they are or your argument collapses.  You sound like Islamics who must defend the Koran.  The gospel saves men.  Practicing and honoring Tradition does not.  You know this—so why teach other people error?  How is it that if one doesn’t toe the Catholic line in the “fullness,” people like you finger point and say “You’re not Catholic.”  Very likely by your standard only 10% of Catholics are “Catholic.”  No doubt you are familiar with recent polling by the well known Washington-based PEW Research which finds over 70% of Catholic married couples use contraceptives.  Are they also not Catholic?  Seems using contraceptives has become a modern “Tradition” for Catholic married couples.

@ Casting Crowns ...IMHO,  We as The Body of Christ are first and foremost called to worship God and bring others into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!  When any church or religion uses its doctrine and traditions to point back at itself,  it is no longer pointing towards God and that then becomes idolatry.  Instead of praising God we end up praising “the church” and our faith becomes a competition to see who knows the most. But,  always we should have our hearts and selves focused first on our Lord and Savior!  We are all Children of God. He speaks to each and every one of us in the way that we can best hear. Come join us at the People For Others Blog at Loyola Press. We are an eclectic group of travellers all seeking a closer relationship with Christ and with people of all faiths!  There you will find priests and theologians to answer your questions in a respectful manner. And I promise,  you won’t be beaten up with the catechism.  :)

Susan, thank you so much for helping me out and your explanations are much better and more detailed than mine. God Bless.

Casting Crowns, please read Susan’s very well done explanation above. All this time I thought you were Catholic, but obviously you are an anti-Catholic Protestant (not all Protestants are anti-Catholic). Apparently we are also beating you with the Catechism, so you might want to take Emma up on her invite.

@Emma:  I do not romantacize my faith’s beginnings, as they are older than written word.  Your religion turned my temple’s priestesses into prisoner prostitutes, because they would not repent and accept your religion as their own.  Your own Easter was taken from our Ostara, a celebration of the beginning of spring, and is continued through the imagery of eggs and bunnies to this day.  Your celebration of Christmas, which by all accounts should be in the spring, is remarkably similar to our Yule, coming together on the darkest day of the year, sharing our stores of food and warmth with others and celebrating the darkness, for in that darkness we find light.  Your celebration of Mary, the most sacred woman (and only remaining) in your texts corresponds with our Beltane, a time of fertile earth, much like Mary’s womb.  We celebrate that God and Goddess bless our fields so that we may harvest in the fall.  It is not coincidence that your Holy Days correspond with ones we have held sacred since before your religion was born.  The very text you recommend is by one of the men who worked tirelessly to bring Paganism back into the consciousness of those who had forgotten, and to bolster those who continued to practice.  I will never claim that Paganism, in any of its forms, is perfect.  Much like I will never claim that Christianity is perfect.  But I know more Pagans that follow the true teachings of Jesus better than Christians who following their religions, and that to me is a problem within Christianity.
@Joan62:  St. Brigit was converted from Brighid the Goddess by early Irish Christians.  http://www.irishcentral.com/story/travel/irelands-hidden-gems/st-brigid-a-pagan-goddess-turned-christian-saint-in-ireland-115478499.html 
@Greg:  I was born Catholic.  I went to Catholic school, I was confirmed, and I was a good little girl.  Because of the people, including the hierarchy, that could not follow their own rules, who told me that I could not commune with God without my priest (who was a devout adulterer with many of the congregations wives) I stepped back and started educating myself on what faith was, and why it was so very different from religion.  Religion is man’s detriment to faith.  The faithful need no one to commune for them, as they talk to God themselves.  The faithful look at the politics of religion and realize there is no place for politics in faith.  I am faithful.  I believe in God.  I’ve researched and realized that God had a Goddess, but she was removed from the religion when women were ostracized.  I honor her as well.  I realize after communing with God that all the Gods we have named in all the different religions are the SAME God, and that Goddess is the same as well.  I honor them both in my deeds, in my studies, and in my family.  And I honor them without the politics and wonderful people who tell me I’m a sinner because of things in my past, like divorcing a man who abused my family, walking away from a larger family that abused us as well.  And as soon as I walked away from the guilt that was laid at my feet by the congregations at large, I was free of antidepressants and finally happy.  Just because I don’t darken the doorstep of a church does not mean that I am less faithful.  My church is everywhere because I see Him and Her in all things around me.

Lina, from the article you linked: “Apparently or so the story goes and we Irish never let the truth get in the way of a good story,...”

Sounds about right. St. Brigid as I posted and linked earlier, was a real, flesh and blood person. Is it that Irish pagans never let the truth (that Brigid was a real person) get in the way of a good story (myth)? Also, Mary, the Blessed Mother of Jesus (Jesus-also a real person and really divine) was real. So any similarities to the myths of paganism and the Truth don’t mean a whole lot to me.

As for our Holy Days coinciding with pagan days, I thought that Christians chose those days in part to ‘christianize’ what had been pagan.

Anyway, of course paganism goes back very, very far. IMO, it just means that human beings have always believed in something greater than themselves, and until they came to know the One True God and Creator, came up with their own ideas and explanations.

Lina, you are totally free to believe what you wish, remember, it is you who came onto a Catholic site to apparently defend your beliefs against a perfectly legitimate article in a Catholic newspaper that was written for Catholics.

@Joanp62:  You are a rather reckless and highly accusatory Catholic to think every Catholic who does not agree with every iota of Church teaching is not Catholic—but an anti-Catholic Protestant.  Unlike yourself, as an RCIA team member, I have never told an RCIA candidate upon Easter Vigil they are no longer allowed to think or question anything.  The usual Catholic response is “Well, we encourage questions, but you should read or consult X, Y or Z” for sound teaching.”  “Or you should make a retreat or visit with Father Smith.”  “Or, Scott Hahn has a book covering that topic.” “Or Jeff Cavins has tape series on this.”  These suggestions do not always work for someone.  All Catholic suggestions are not a panacea.  Moreover, taking questions directly to Christ for His understanding are likely more productive.  If you are seeking Him first, is He likely to lead you astray?  Ms. Joan, you are so indoctrinated in your institutional thinking you cannot imagine fellow Catholics not thinking the way YOU do.  As a result, you can only finger point and accuse people next to you in the pew as being anti-Catholic Protestants.  No doubt you are one of the Tridentine Catholics who really despise the Novos Ordo and see John XXIII, Pius VI, John Paul, John Paul II and Benedict XVI as false popes.  Please stop embarrassing yourself with the “You’re not Catholic” rhetoric.  You sound more like Catholic David Axelrod trying to sell snake oil for Obama.  Since 54% of Catholics voted for Obama last time, are they not Catholic.  People do not have think as YOU do.  It is not a sacrilege to take Eucharist in the hand rather than only on the tongue.

@Joan62:  Your reasoning that the “Apparently or so the story goes and we Irish never let the truth get in the way of a good story,...” also does not add credence to your own story about St. Brigit, since she was brought to the attention of Rome by presumably the Irish who talked about her.  So, by that token, they could have been telling stories.

I am not sure why you believe, or any Christian believes, it’s ok to disrespect other faiths by not lending them the respect of a proper noun.  I have not once done so, with Christian/ity, God, or Jesus, yet you perpetuate disrespect by not capitalizing Pagan.  Just because you don’t believe in it does not mean you should disrespect it.  Would you not capitalize Jewish (of which Jesus was one) or Muslim?  And, I came to this page because it tells blatant lies about my faith.  Do you not defend your own views here?  Many lies are told about Paganism to those in Christianity, and while some do their own research into it, many believe what they are told…that we worship the devil or ourselves.  Completely untrue.  We worship the same God you do, but through His creations, nature and the world.  We honor Him and his Goddess through our deeds.  Most Pagans do not even believe there is a Satan or Hell.  These are purely Christian constructs, so why would we honor something we don’t even believe in?  I am here to see what you collectively are doing in the name of God, to people like me, who merely want to worship God as I see fit in my soul.  I do not kill things, I do not honor some dark being.  Neither do any of the thousands of Pagans I know.  Unfortunately, Christians as a whole believe that we worship Satan and need to be exorcised.  It only makes us dislike you, and it shows you don’t follow your own tenants of the 10 commandments. 

@Lina ...I have only one question :  How can you say that the temple prostitutes in Ancient Rome were held prisoner by Christians when there were no Christians in that moment in history?  Again,  I say,  don’t take my word for it,  but also go back and explore the historical and anthropological evidence,  secular evidence.  We as people of faith,  all faiths are called to transcend our history. None can go back in time and there is blood and warfare in all of our histories. Your argument is the same as telling me that I’m responsible for slave trading.  Of course,  if you bring up the Law of Karma or The Three Fold Law perhaps you could use that as an argument. I see you’re “ex -Catholic “. You and I are the flip sides of the same coin. You can’t tell me anything that I don’t already know about pagan practices and I know they’re sucking you in with “just enough of the truth ” to make it sound legitimate, but it’s not. Search out world history.  Learn the facts for yourself.  Don’t listen to me or anyone else.  Spend time in contemplation away from all the noise.  Seek out truth.

Casting Crowns you posted about me: ” Unlike yourself, as an RCIA team member, I have never told an RCIA candidate upon Easter Vigil they are no longer allowed to think or question anything.” Once again you are being deceptive. I’ve never said that, posted that nor told anyone that. However, if you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and you should if you are Catholic, you should also believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church when teaching on faith and morals, and that the Catholic Church holds the Fullness of the Truth.

” taking questions directly to Christ for His understanding are likely more productive.  If you are seeking Him first, is He likely to lead you astray?”  Christ will not lead anyone astray, but human beings do not always know if what they are getting from their prayers is Christ or their own ideas. That is why He gave us HIS Church! I do not expect a Protestant to believe this, but as a Catholic you should. And that is NOT my opinion, but Church teaching and something faithful Catholics should hold to. As I said before, this is why the Church’s teachings do not change, but Protestant belief and teaching is all over the place between denominations and has changed over the years.

“Please stop embarrassing yourself with the “You’re not Catholic” rhetoric.” If you are Catholic, CC, then it is you who are embarrassing yourself with your lack of knowledge and your dissent. Other than that, I do not go around calling people “not Catholic”. Based on your more recent posts, I honestly though you were Protestant. If you are not, you have been heavily influenced more by Protestantism than Catholicism.

“People do not have think as YOU do.  It is not a sacrilege to take Eucharist in the hand rather than only on the tongue.” Where did I even bring up how to receive the Eucharist?? And people do not have to think as I do. I try to form my faith and worldview based only on the teachings of the Catholic Church because I do believe with my whole heart, soul, mind and strength that this is the ONLY Church Christ founded, and it is the ONLY Church that is still in possession of the Fullness of Christ’s Truth. Do I think all practising Catholics should feel that way? You bet I do. Otherwise, they are not really faithful Catholics. That is not my opinion. What would a person think if I was a member of PETA, but did not agree with their stance against wearing fur? Why be a member of PETA if I do not agree with what they stand for? It does not make sense. Same thing with being Catholic or any other religion. If you want to pick and choose what you want to believe, then maybe you should look somewhere else. That you have been on the RCIA team in your parish, I find very disturbing.

Lina, I respect you and I respect that you believe what you believe to be true, but I do not respect paganism. It is a falsehood that we must respect other religions. If we do not believe they are true, what is there to respect? I suppose that there might be aspects of another religion that would deserve respect, but how can anyone respect another faith if they believe their own is the true one? That does not mean that I would do anything to hurt or destroy another person or the religious articles, or places of another religion. I just don’t know how I can say I respect any religion that I do not agree with, and in some cases find disturbing. To me, it just goes against honesty and common sense. Also, as a Christian, we usually call any religion outside of Judeo/Christianity as pagan, it just means to me, not Christian or Jewish. So, to me, there are many pagan religions, like Shintoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. I was using pagan as an adjective.

How is not respecting paganism going against our 10 commandments? Are you claiming that if I don’t respect your religion that I would want to kill pagans or destroy what you hold dear? That’s b.s. You are drawing conclusions that have no basis from what I had posted.

The reason that I do not capitalize the word pagan is because paganism in and of itself is not a religion,  but a lifestyle.  The federally recognized religion, at least in the US,  is Wicca. Wicca,  much like Catholicism,  requires one to study for one yr prior to gaining full access to its teachings,  through initiation into a practicing coven,  much the same as catechism and confirmation into the Catholic Church.  Unfortunately, too many pick up a book by Starhawk or Cunningham, read it and then call themselves a witch without guidance.  Yes,  they get themselves in trouble,  then because they’re “solitary ” have no one to turn to for help. Now,  tho they don’t recognize the devil per se,  they do pay heed to protection from “negative energies “, which is why prior to ritual,  the HPst cleanses herself,  blesses the circle,  and the circle is closed prior to calling forth the Goddess. I don’t know what trad you practice in Lina.  The one that I presided over was told not to proselytize and it was the priests,  not the priestess that was given the task of communicator and protector,  have to balance the masculine and feminine.  We had words for people who thought they had to “defend the faith. Fundy Wiccans ” and for those who thought everything was “joy and love “, they were Fluffy Bunny Wiccans “.  Keep walking the path you’re on….....these people are not lying.  Try Ignacian Spirituality.  There you’ll find exactly what you’re describing,  but will be under the tutelage of experienced spiritual directors.

@Joanp62:  Your comments are more in line like that of a modern day Pharisee.  You are bent on being a keeper of the law—all church laws just as a good Jew was required to exercise and keep all Mosaic laws.  Your righteousness is not imputed by keeping every Catholic nuance.  One’s focus is to first be on “Him.”  Your focus appears to be first on observing all church laws to be a “good” Catholic.  Jesus never taught that.

What can possibly be more strange, yes bizarre, in today’s world of accomplishment and scientific advancement that serious people can hold onto beliefs in ‘devils’ and that a spirit can possess a human being, even an animal. No such thing can happen or even has happened. It is incredulous to mock other beliefs while opining the reality of such absurdities. The only possession possible is for believers in ‘devils’ to be possessed by irrational thoughts.

Lina, you wrote, “We worship the same God you do, but through His creations, nature and the world.  We honor Him and his Goddess through our deeds.  Most Pagans do not even believe there is a Satan or Hell.  These are purely Christian constructs, so why would we honor something we don’t even believe in?  I am here to see what you collectively are doing in the name of God, to people like me, who merely want to worship God as I see fit in my soul.”

Three questions for you:
1) Who is your authority?  For instance, Christians use the Old and New Testaments, to see how God revealed Himself to us, and believing The Bible is the Holy Spirit-inspired word of God, to be believed and obeyed.
2) Do you have a Creed?  For instance, most Christians will acknowledge the Nicene Creed, the Apostle’s Creed.  It is everything of importance that we believe.
3) Do you believe in Good AND the opposite: Evil; or only in Good and ... better??? 

You mentioned that you wanted to worship God as YOU see fit in your soul. So what about how God, Himself, says He wants to be worshipped?  How do you obey God regarding that?

Jesuitical graduate of Boston College

I don’t know, but something tells me Jesuitical graduate of Boston College was tongue in cheek, or ironinc or something - c’mon “Jesuitical graduate of Boston College” - and hten lays out a perfect Jesuitical style statement undermining Catholic doctrine?!?  It’s too perfect.  Now, if he had said Jesuitical gradute of Georgetown University, well, that’s a different story.

Dear Emma, thank you for your formidable comment to Lina.
you wrote:“Yes they get themselves in trouble, then because they are solitary they have no one to turn to for help”
I was a skeptical solitary dabbler, for around 10 years, when I started having weird dreams, bizarre feelings of being watched in my own house. While helping in a local charity I met an old priest to whom I confided. He advised me and help me to return to the Catholic Church of my childhood.
This is where my “real” problems started: mysterious illnesses, smelly disturbance in my house, nightmares in the wee hours of morning, more paranoid feelings. Trusting in Jesus Christ, and trusting the Catholic church teachings help me to get out of this trap.
I don’t know about New Age, or Wicca, but I know for sure that not believing in demons is not a protection against it.

to Lived ... good name, how do you pronounce that!  ...they are serious about their beliefs ... are you mocking them !
Life’s a matter of perspective.

Terah:

God and Goddess are my authority.  I need no other, such as a human, to tell me what God tells them.  Your very own examples of the Bible and Nicene Creed have been !@#$% by humans since the very first transcribing.  It has been interpreted to the point that the same Bible you worship has little to do with what it originally contained.  My “creed”, I guess you’d call it, is “Harm none.”  Everything I do is prefaced by “Will this hurt someone?”  Words and deeds are included in this, as well as thoughts, as thoughts give life to words and deeds. 

I believe people do good and bad things, but I do not believe in an “ultimate evil opposite of God”.  I believe people make bad choices and have the capability to do horrible things to each other and their environment.  Are they possessed by the Devil?  No. 

I “obey” (I hate that word.  I am not His servant, but His child!) God and Goddess by communing and listening.  Much like true priests are called to the order, I am called into service by teaching respect for the environment that He betrusted us with, by respecting ourselves with proper foods that he has provided and not the foods created in laboratories.  I am called to service to be kind to others, respecting them and being a listening ear when they are troubled.  I am not called to proselytize a specific creed over another, that one is the “true” word and not some rambling.  I was led away from God, listening to the priests of several churches, all Catholic, as I was brought up that no other church was right.  I was led away from loving God as my creator.  By leaving the church and calling on God and Goddess, I have found my way back to them and what my true purpose is.  Unfortunately, because I talk directly to God and see His love in all things, I am deemed unworthy, and possessed.  It’s sad really, because God just wants us to rejoice in Him and honor the Goddess that religion ripped from the Bible so long ago.

@Lina ...let’s look at this through natural phenomena,  predator and prey. We might not think that a mountain lion is evil or bad,  they are magnificent beasts!  However, our perspective would rapidly change if we found ourselves face to face with a lioness protecting her cub and we were not prepared or trained in the proper way to handle the situation.  Lions are quiet and swift,  powerful beasts who don’t often give us advance warning.

Casting Crowns, and you have become your own pope. Jesus is not the founder of the Protestant churches. He is the founder of the Catholic Church including those Eastern Rite churches in union with the Pope. And I hope to defend that Church and Her teachings, which the Holy Spirit will not let be in error on Faith and Morality, until my dying day with the help of God’s grace.

I’ve been reading some of your posts on another column here. Does it not bother you that those who do not know you assume, by your posts, that you are not Catholic? If you do not believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Our Lord, and if you do not think that the Catholic Church is both human and divine and that the Holy Spirit guides the Magesterium-the teaching authority of the Catholic Church-so it will not err on matters of faith and morals, all of these things that the Catholic Church also says about herself, then why do you remain Catholic?
I ask that question seriously. Much of what you hold is not biblical and not in accord with the teaching of the Catholic Church. Why don’t you just go over to one of the Protestant sects that agree with your beliefs? Really. And that you help teach RCIA, while dissenting of much of Catholic Teaching, is very disturbing. I can no longer be patient regarding fellow Catholics who knowingly cling to error, instead of clinging to Jesus and His Church.

Lina, actually, scholars will tell you that the Bible of today is very accurate and has been accurately translated through the centuries from the original writings. You say God and Goddess are your authority. In other words, YOU are your own authority. How do you know you have it right?
You do not want to be called a ‘servant’ of God, but you like to consider yourself a ‘child’ of God. For Christians we are both servants and children of God. I choose to serve God. Satan said “I will NOT serve”, and cast himself from the presence of God.

But you don’t believe in Satan. All of creation is filled with opposites. Hot/cold, light/dark, hard/soft, up/down. If there is good, then there is evil. If there is God, then there is Satan also.

You are free to continue to believe the lies you were given regarding the history of Christianity and the Bible and your own paganism. But you will not convince anyone here- you are wasting your time.

@Joanp62:  I also have read your posts on other blogs.  You are a legalist first and foremost.  I find your attitude disturbing as Jesus did the Pharisees.  You are a prisoner of legalism.  No wonder you say Christ is not also present in Christian churches.  You have thus called Jesus a liar.  How elitist of you.  You are a prideful denominationalist and are emotionally unable to accept people who disagree with you.

Dear Lived,
There was a time when I could agree with you: only people who believe in demons can be bothered by them. You can give the phenomenom another name: evil spirits, bad spirits, antagonistic spiritual entities, negative entities etc. Christianity is not the only faith to warn people against bad spiritual influences. The strange phenomenons that plagued me as I was trying to return to the catholic religion were not initialy attributed to demons, I thought I was having some psychotic episode; that coincidence would make me sich whenever I attended Sunday mass, that I had caught a bad virus etc… nothing really make sense until I applied the advices found on a catholic website. It worked, I found back my sanity; but now I am baffled at the idea that it may indeed had been caused by a negative spiritual entity. Go figure.

@Joanp62
You are an inspiration. 
God bless you.

@lived - it never ceases to amaze me how many people insist that science and spirituality are mutually exclusive.  I can only surmise that they know little about either.  Scientific research does not begin with answers,  but with a question.  I ‘ve just begun my last yr in a 5yr major in environmental toxicology.  This is so focusedin sciences that gen ed and electives are waived.  When one explores the world from microcosm and migrates outward in astronomical observance,  one cannot help but become aware of the patterns that display themselves. The wonders that emerge are mind boggling.  For instance,  black holes,  once thought to be singular are now known to travel in pairs circumambulating each other (Lina’s masculine and feminine perhaps?). During this cosmic dance they emit a sound which sounds the same as a human heartbeat.  The release by NASA last week of the “earth song ” which mimics a whale song. Look through an electron microscope and you will see that there is no such thing as solid matter. Migratory patterns of wildlife.  The interdependence of all species etc. are what we in the Catholic Faith call sacramentals…...the Creator revealing himself through his creation. Too too much to describe.  The gifted men and women of science that I’ve been privileged to study under these last years when the “God Topic ” is raised,  rarely say “There is no God “. Why?  They say they don’t know, but also will acknowledge that evidence points to something bigger than us. Authentic scientific inquiry is humbling.  Of all that I’ve learned these past few years,  the most important lesson learned,  was learning how little we know.  BTW ...this at a secular Calif. research university,  not affiliated with any religious institution.  Tho there have been many discoveries made in all fields by people of all faiths.  My question to all here would be,  not, Is there a God? ” but rather,  “How big is your God? ”  Sadly too many seem to worship a very small God,  a god that they believe needs us to rush to His defense.  Oh,  don’t take my word for it. Instead of spewing out sarcasm in an effort to make yourself sound superior,  put forth the effort to find out for yourself.

@Casting Crowns
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I don’t think you know what legalistic means.
Having a reason and an explanation for the elements of your faith does not make you legalistic.  I makes you intelligent.
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Understanding the bible, Christ’s church and his mission for the church is not legalism. 
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Let me give you an example.  If you believe in the bible, but not the Church, you are illogical.
1) The bible describes how Christ formed the church, gave the Spirit as a gift to the church, and promised to never let it fail.
2) The church wrote the bible, inspired by the Spirit.  If you deny the Church you must deny the bible.
3) If you say the church has not prevailed then you are deny Christ’s own words.
4) If you deny the pope, you are denying Christ’s model for his church.
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For people who take religion seriously, this is simple.  For those who want to deny the truth this is a stumbling block.

@Joanp62 Keep fighting the good fight. Keep holding to and defending the Faith, through which Christ has opened Heaven for mankind. Making necessary distinctions and holding firm to the truth is not Pharasaical. (Is that a word? Whatever.)

@Casting Crowns Our beliefs are only myopic in the respect that Christ founded only one Church, through which other denominations receive Christ’s grace to the degree in which they participate in the truth it maintains.

Oh Casting Crowns. I really did hit a nerve, didn’t I? And you continue to lie about my posts. I did not say that Our Lord is not present in other denominations, I said that He did not found them. It is a fact. Accuse me of legalism, that is your opinion. You on the other hand have admitted that you do not agree with all of the teachings of the Catholic Church, Christ’s Church, and in that you are very wrong. Jesus gave us this Church to assist us on earth, and you reject parts of it. You are divided between Catholicism-the protector of the fullness of the Truth- and Protestantism-which only has part of the Truth. If you were a Protestant, I wouldn’t blame you, but you claim to be Catholic, so you have no excuse to discard what you choose to. I know I sound harsh, but I really have had it with Catholics who do not make an effort to know the Faith, the history of the Church and who therefore dissent from the Magesterium’s teachings.

Casting: I also want to add, because I agree with and support ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church you call me a legalistic Pharisee and claim that I call Jesus a liar. Perhaps, because you disagree with some of the teachings of the Church Jesus founded, you are calling Jesus a liar.
Please think about that. Because this is seriously important.

Rob, I find your example extraordinarily ‘legalistic’.

Has anyone here ever read C.S.Lewis’ “Screwtape Letters”?

@Jesuitical graduate of Boston College
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Thank you for self-identifying yourself as someone who does not know what the definition of legalism is.
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What you meant to say was…
“Rob, I find your example extraordinarily ‘logical’.
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To help this along:
1) Someone who follows the letter of the law but ignores the spirit of the law is legalistic.
2) Someone who contradicts themselves and/or ignores facts is illogical.
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Finally, attacking the messenger because you do not like the facts is illogical.

Joanp62 - You wrote to Casting Crowns:
“...you do not agree with all of the teachings of the Catholic Church, Christ’s Church, and in that you are very wrong. Jesus gave us this Church to assist us on earth, and you reject parts of it.”

Joan, what are ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church with which we MUST agree?  Please will you spell out which parts cannot be rejected?

Please tell me, in your own words; do not tell me to “read the catechism” or make sweeping statements like, “You must believe everything.”  I like detail.  Specifics.  A handy list to read, to see if I believe it. In advance, I thank you.

Casting Crowns should know exactly what you mean too, by telling him/her that parts of Christ’s teachings are being rejected.  I think this will help us all to know from where you and others come, in terms of thought.

Rob and Scaevola, thanks for the support. God Bless you both.

Rob,
...sadly, your insight is replaced by defensiveness…and indeed your responses are ‘letter of the law’.

Terah, the particular Teachings of the Church that I was posting about to Casting Crowns was in regard to their questioning that the Church did not believe in the Bible Alone. When I said that the Church has always gone by Scripture and Tradition, they admitted that they did not agree with that.
You yourself, many posts back said that ‘everything we needed to know was in the Bible’. I posted that that was not correct and said again, that the Catholic Church goes by Scripture and Tradition. My comment to you, days ago, is what sparked Casting to start posting to me, claiming that I was wrong, it was my opinion, and that I am a legalistic pharisee. It has become clear to me that as a Catholic on his/her parish’s RCIA team, that Casting is heavily influenced by Protestantism, as some Catholics unknowingly are. The problem with that is the Catholic Church has the Fullness of the Truth and the Protestant denominations have only part of the Truth, and also teach error, ie the Rapture, bible alone, birth control is okay, divorce and remarriage ok, etc. That does not automatically mean that individual Protestants are less Christian than Catholics nor does that deny that many Protestants appear to have a greater love of Jesus than some Catholics.

I hope you were being sarcastic when you asked me to list ALL of the Church’s teachings. I don’t need to do that-we were discussing whether it was Bible Alone or Bible and Tradition. I learned, and am still learning Church teachings, not because someone gave me “a list”, but because I cared enough about Jesus, my faith, and His Church, to learn as much as I could. When I had my reconversion, I was hungry to learn everything I could, knowing that there was so, so much I either never had learned or was mistaken about.

I don’t know what is wrong with the Catechism. It is like a little encyclopedia. When you have a question about a certain subject, go to the index and look it up and read. EWTN is a wonderful resource-website and cable channel- along with many good Catholic online sites. Reading the Saints like Teresa of Avila, Therese of Liseux, John of the Cross, St. Augustine, and just some good Catholic authors, Peter Kreeft, Bishop Fulton Sheen, really helps give you insight into living the Gospels and the mystical life of prayer.

This is not just some ‘aspect’ of Catholicism, as though there are many valid variations. It’s not about liberal or conservative Catholic, it’s about BEING Catholic or not. It’s about being a ‘cultural’ Catholic, or really living the Faith. It’s about just going through the motions, or knowing why you are going to Mass, crossing yourself with holy water, going to confession, etc. It’s about coming to the realization that, if I really do believe this stuff, what am I going to do about it? If I believe it, it’s literally a matter of life and death, it is more important than anything in life here because it is about eternal life. It is about love because God is Love, but it’s about knowing that real love is sacrificial and and giving, not emotional feeling.

@Emma, I was reading back as I felt I missed something in our conversation, if you can call it that.  Paganism is a proper noun, just as much as Christianity.  It is a blanket term for those that are not Christian, Judaic, or Islamic.  Again, if I did not capitalize Christianity, you’d be all over me about disrespecting “God’s word” or some such terminology.  I don’t respect Catholicism in its current state, but I still will use the proper spelling, which includes the capital.  Also, I understand that people who are not serious in their faith, be it in Christianity or Paganism, or any faith, can pick up a book, read it, and call themselves whatever it is they choose to.  If they do not connect with others in their faith, they can become lost and twist their faith to what they need it to be, not listening to Spirit.  That is a problem in EVERY faith, not just Wicca or Paganism.

@Mina, why did you attempt to believe in something that you were skeptical in, then blame your outcome on not being Catholic?  That is illogical.

@Joan62, I could find an equal number of scholars that say that the Bible today is a forgery, that so many words have been mistranslated over the years that the original meaning is completely lost in entire books.  I am not my own authority.  God and Goddess are.  I don’t need a man who asks to be worshipped, as is the Pope or Cardinals, all the way down to priests, to tell me or interpret for me what God is telling me.  More often than not, it is not for the betterment of my spirituality or faith, but for some other political gain, which I will not be part of.  Yes, I am a child of God and Goddess.  That does not make me their servant.  Are your children your servants?  If they are, I pity their childhoods.  God and Goddess want to be honored and listened to, so that we may learn.  We do not make slaves out of our children, then tell them they have free will to do as they choose.  Could you please point out where Jesus said, “I am here to start the Roman Catholic Church.  This will be my only true church, and people that follow me through other named churches will not have my blessing nor will they be saved?”  I realize that this is what is taught in catechism, as I have been through all that, but even the priests could not tell me where to find that information.  Since you seem to be the end-all authority on all things Catholic, I thought you might be able to point me to that in scripture.  I have about 23 Bibles in my home, at last count, so that would be a good place for me to start, I think.  As for the whole Satan thing, just because I don’t believe in Satan doesn’t mean I don’t believe in “bad”.  Your own version of God has Him being a horrible being, spiting people, killing them off en-masse.  Is that not evil?  Every coin has two sides.  Mine, however, does not have the face of Satan.  Again, that is an Abrahamic construct.

@Rob, It is very easy to believe in the Bible, but not the church.  The church is run by men, making laws for their congregations, with no regard to what is contained in the Bible, yet they tout that it comes from the Bible.  When I first fled the church, I believed in the Bible.  I could not believe in the church.  It is a petty political organization, in my opinion, that does not put the good of its believers ahead of their own ideas of how they should behave.  The Pope is a man voted into power.  He does not even follow his own rules.  I deny the Pope because of his hypocritical behavior.  He is not some all-powerful conduit to God.  We are.  Each and every one of us.

I am sad to see that so many people are so intolerant of anyone else, condemning them without even caring.  I am also sad to see the Catholic Church reverting backwards so far.  I suppose it’s for the best though.  Eventually so many people will leave the church that all that will be left are the bitter people hanging on to another man’s word for their salvation.  I don’t put the responsibility for my faith anywhere but with myself, for only I can believe.  No one can do it for me.

I’ve noticed there are two types of behavior on this site. 
1) Criticize the church, not understanding it, think it is wrong and try to change it to “your own” ideal church.
2) Support the church, try to understand the positions the church teaches us and adhere to her rules, understanding that it is Christ’s to guide and define, not mine.
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BTW there is a lot of leeway in the path to follow the church.  You can fast every Friday, you can give to the poor, you can tithe, you can go to mass on Saturday vigil or Sunday morning.  You can believe in Fatima and pray the rosary or you can pray in another way.
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But, ultimately if you are Catholic you are required to understand the churches teaching of the Gospel and if you find your view in conflict with the church, you are required to research why.  Beyond the Catechism there are encyclicals that expound on areas of faith like Human Life - contraception and abortion.  To form your own opinion of the Gospel in opposition to the church without reading and understanding the guidance of the church is sinful - it denies God’s ongoing existence and presence in the church.
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@Terah James - Your faith is your responsibility.  If you cannot be bothered to read the Catechism or study the churches teaching of the Gospel then how can you expect someone else to do it for you?  Casting Crows specifically said he does not believe in the Apostolic Tradition.  This is in the Catechism in Chapter 2 Article 2. 
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One last personal thought on the order of existence.
1) The Word
2) Jesus preaching the Gospel
3) Jesus forming the church
4) Jesus sending the Spirit to the church
5) The church spreading the Gospel
6) The church through the inspiration of the Spirit capturing the Gospel and the early teaching of the church in scripture
7) The church under the guidance of the Spirit proclaiming the Gospel though faith (e.g. the creed, the sacraments, encyclicals).
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I make this list to point out to people that the church existed before and after the new testament and that both the Gospel and the church are intended to live [on] under the guidance of the Spirit.

Lina, why on earth do you feel the need to peddle or defend your religion on this site? The article was about Satanism. Do you worship Satan? If not, then why do you feel the need to explain your beliefs here? We think your religion is just as false and silly as you think ours is. I am not going on pagan sites and posting about Catholicism. I do not see what your point is except to attempt to cause strife.

We do NOT worship the Pope. It is clear that you believe a lot of stuff that you have heard from sources that do not like or respect the Catholic Church. As a former Catholic yourself, that is sad. Maybe you are here because the Lord is calling you here. If so, then we welcome sincere questions. But since this article is not even about paganism, I do not know why else you are here except to insult and maybe proselytize.

Lina, I sent my post before addressing another part of your post. Jesus says that he is founding His Church upon ‘this rock’. The Church was not called the Catholic Church immediately, although within less than 100 years early Christians were using that word. Roman is a rite within the Catholic Church. There are other, equally valid rites that are in union with the Holy Father in Rome. Some of these are the Maronite, Melkite, Byzantine and others. So, the Catholic church is not just the Roman Catholic Church.  Looking into the early history and writings of important early Christians, called the Church Fathers, will give you insight into how the Catholic Church grew from those first early Christians who had converted from Judaism and pagan faiths. 

I remain Catholic because I believe strongly in it that it is the Church Jesus founded for all humankind, and I have done my research over the years. You appear to have left the Church without really knowing it. I’ve read and heard all the opposing views and ideas regarding the Church, and have come to the conclusion in spite of those views, which were easily refutable, that Catholicism is true. Why you feel the need to denigrate my faith, when I do not go on your pagan sites and denigrate yours is beyond me.

@ Lina,

Thanks for addressing me directly. I had no support network to help me understand what was wrong with me. Maybe I should have gone see a psychiatrist but being financially poor, that was not in my reach. The only one willing to help me was an old priest. It turned out the way it did. I am not very proud of it to be honest.Being weak is not my cup of tea.
This being said, I planted my brief story here in order to connect with people who claim to have some knowledge of these sort of things. If you have a better knowledge than the catholics about spiritual entities, by all mean feel free to enlighten me. I am not here to condemn any one, or to insult you but I need to know. Cheers!

Lina, you wrote to Joanp62:
“I could find an equal number of scholars that say that the Bible today is a forgery, that so many words have been mistranslated over the years that the original meaning is completely lost in entire books.”*******

Please will you provide the top 3 mistranslated teachings that scholars you know of are disputing from Bible translations that were approved by leading Catholic and non-Catholic sources?

Like the Revised Standard Version, available in Catholic & non-Catholic Bibles, I believe, what top 3 teachings are specifically in question now, being called incorrect?

Rob, I have read the catechism.  While much of it is wonderful, and based on Scripture, there are parts that I do find unacceptable.

I also read a few of the encyclicals, and very much enjoyed Benedict’s encyclical on Love.  But to say a “good Catholic” need to buy into EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches is a stretch, as Rome seems to never stop coming up with new & improved information to believe.  It grows, and grows…

Joanp62, you wrote to me: “I hope you were being sarcastic when you asked me to list ALL of the Church’s teachings.”**********

But I was quite serious.  I was neither being funny nor sarcastic. Here’s why:

When Philip was sent by the Holy Spirit to answer the questions of the Ethiopian eunauch that was reading the Prophet Isaiah at the time, Philip asked if he understood what he was reading.  The eunach said, “How could I unless someone explains it to me?”

Philip told the man about Jesus, and the eunach immediately said, “There is water!  What prevents me from being baptized?”—Philip then baptized the man, and was whisked away by the Holy Spirit, and the enuach went back to Queen Candice of Ethiopia, and presumably converted everyone he knew into Christianity there, telling them all about Jesus.

Joanp62- we are always to be able to give a reason for our faith, in season and out of season.  It should be simple; so simple, a child should be able to understand it.  We ought not be referring someone that’s asking about Jesus to an encyclopedia, or to reams of encyclicals written by popes.  We should be able to share our faith about Jesus, and Who He is to us, in a quick and winsome manner.

So our message should be simple:  Who do you say Jesus is, and what does His life, His death and His Resurrection mean to you personally?  The answer to those questions has Eternal Value, and is of great importance.

@Joan62:  Please show me where I’ve peddled my faith (I don’t believe in religion) or asked people to convert to what I believe in?  My faith does not require me to tell people that their faith is completely wrong and that they will go to some horrible place to live out eternity because they don’t believe in my particular twist on some book.  Yes, I talk about my faith.  I answer questions about my faith (thank you to the people here who have asked politely and not doomed me to somewhere).  I will not tell you that you will die a horrible death and the hounds of hell will take you forever.  I have pointed out where history and religion don’t mesh, and asked a few questions, many unanswered.  While YOU may not be going to Pagan sites and posting about your religion, many of your brothers and sisters are.  I was here because this particular article was linked in another that I was reading about how Pagans were attacked at a public park, for which they had a permit to use, by Catholics, and called horrible names in front of not only the Pagans’ children, but also the Catholics.  I happened to be at that event.  I also am interested to read things that point to trouble in my community, in this case the Pagan community.  We are lumped into the heading “New Age” oftentimes, and I’d rather know what’s coming than be blind to the possibilities.  Yes, there are people who worship Satan.  No, they are not Satanists.  Satanist is a misnomer brought about by the founder of Satanism.  Satanists worship themselves.  They don’t believe in Satan either, but deify themselves, which goes against every grain in my soul.  People that worship Satan are Lucifarians.  I really wish people who go on rants about worshipping someone knew what those people were called.  Unfortunately, I’ve met Satanists and despite my exhusband claiming to be Episcopalian, he truly was a Satanist as he worshipped only himself.  Anyway, my point in being here is to see what is going on, and be aware.  As for Jesus founding Catholicism, just because he said “this rock” does not mean he is founding one particular form of Christianity.  If you are talking about the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, that has been claimed by many a church over the centuries.  So, please point to a text, since I am unable to find one, that shows that Jesus formed the Catholic church, in any of its renditions.  As for not knowing the church, I still study the church.  But I do so with unhindered eyes.  You believe in the politics that it creates, which is fine, I suppose.  It’s your life.  I will not put a thousand people in charge of my spirituality.  That is between God, Goddess, and myself.
@Mina:  I am sorry you didn’t have a network.  I know, living in a very religious and conservative town, how hard that can be.  I started a Pagan community in my region to form a support group for people that were left out of many events and programs in town because of their faith.  Yes, there are negative spiritual entities.  There are also entities that are merely trying to make contact, that when we ignore them, create problems thinking that will cause us to “see” them.  My priest told my family that our house was full of demons.  He blessed it.  He did all kinds of rituals.  Nothing worked.  Finally, I asked my mom to sit with me while I let my mind go blank.  And I told her a story of her cousin growing up that I could not possibly have known.  Our cousin was murdered by his father, and was trying to reach out to my mother.  I gave her a few messages from him, and we didn’t have problems again.  While I don’t know the specifics of your experience, I have found if you just listen, the spirits calm and leave.  Sometimes, particularly pesky ones or ones that have nefarious intentions need a little more help than others.  While I don’t claim to be an expert, I have had quite a bit of experience in this realm.  Sometimes it is a chemical imbalance in the brain.  But not as often as the doctors would like you to believe.  Stay strong in your faith, no matter what it is.  Do not fear the spirits, as it gives them power over you.  And go with your instincts.  Blessings!

@Joan62:  The information contained in my message to Mina was all learned while I was a practicing, soul-believing Catholic, going to mass every day and living in “God’s Love”.  That has nothing to do with me being Pagan.

Terah, I have been giving a reason for my faith on these boards constantly. If you have to ask me again, then you are not reading my posts. What I do not have to do is go through a list of Church Teaching that needs to be held by ALL the faithful. As a Catholic you should know what they are, and there are sources to find out. Oh, but wait-there are some teachings in the Catechism that you find unacceptable. Do you care to say which ones? I have posted and so have others many times that the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit guides the Church when teaching on faith and morals, so the Church cannot err or mislead us. If you do not believe that, then why ARE you Catholic? Really.

Oh, and I have also recently quoted from Scripture the passage about Philip and the Eunuch when trying to explain to Casting Crowns why the Bible Alone is insufficient.

@Terah James:  I researched the Catholic version, since that’s probably the only acceptable Bible for you and the one you are most comfortable with.  The following three passages are probably the most well documented and accepted forgeries, being accepted by mainline and liberal Biblical scholars.
John 7:53 to John 8:11:  The source of this passage is not known, and it is widely regarded to be a forgery, inserted sometime around the 5th century.  It is not included in any of the original texts, and depending on the version of Bible, can come after John 7:52, John 7:36, John 21:25, or Luke 21:38.  In the Revised Standard Version - Catholic, it is inserted after John 7:52.
John 21:  This entire passage was added after the fact and not written by the original author.  This passage is considered a forgery by mainline Biblical scholars.
Mark 16:9 to Mark 16:20:  The original version ended at Mark 16:8 and 9-20 were added based on other books of the New Testament. 
These forgeries don’t cover all the words that are mistranslated, one of which is commonly used against my own faith.  Exodus 22:18 in the RSV-Catholic reads, “You shall not a permit a sorceress to live.”  The original text signified a “poisoner”, not a sorceress or witch. 

Lina, you post denigrating Christianity and promoting paganism. You don’t have to ask people to convert to promote a belief, but that’s peddling as far as I’m concerned.

No, I am not talking about the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. I am talking about the Gospel of Matthew 16:17-19. The Rock of Peter. As a former Catholic, don’t you know this? And Jesus founded ONE Church, a religion that we call Christianity, but He did not found many forms of it. He founded One, people founded others.

Your very last paragraph addressed to me- I do not understand what this has to do with me. I don’t remember mentioning any thing posted between you and Mina.

@Joanp62:  [“the Bible Alone is insufficient.”]  So the gospel (contained inside the Bible) is also insufficient for salvation?  That’s quite a statement considering Jesus preached the gospel of salvation.  He didn’t preach the Catechism.  And since you accept the Bible/gospel is inerrant, your position is thus calling Jesus a liar.  You are now guilty of the sin of blasphemy.  Furthermore, Paul and Silas —by your logic were also Catholic of the ONE true church founded by Christ.  When the jailer spoke to them in ACTS 16:29-34—“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”  They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.  At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.”  Neither Pope Peter, the apostles, nor Paul, Barnabas, John-Mark and others of the apostolic age created additional requirements for salvation.  They preached the gospel of Jesus—-**not invented additional requirements.**  You believe in requirements to be “Catholic” however these men did not preach Catholicism even though you argue they are “Catholic.”  Your problem, Miss Joan, is that you don’t really believe the gospel.  You don’t really believe the Bible.  You need more than God’s word.  God’s word is indequate for you.

Terah James said:
“I have read the catechism.  While much of it is wonderful, and based on Scripture, there are parts that I do find unacceptable.”
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@Terah - This is why you are having a problem being Catholic.
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Scripture is not the Gospel.
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This is why i listed for you the timeline of the Gospel.  Christ created the church to spread the Gospel and it is still spreading the Gospel.
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On what you should believe and not believe:
1) One can ask an endless number of questions about God, faith, the universe. 
2) One can ask an endless number of questions about how to apply these answers to the endless number of situation that come up in life.  This is living the Gospel.
3) Jesus Christ through the Spirit guides the church and the church tries to provide answers to the faithful - just as Peter and Paul attempted to answer questions or provide guidance to the faithful in his letters.
4) Spreading the Gospel did not end with Peter and Paul.  It continued through the formation of the Creed and New Testament and it applied, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Gospel in answering practical questions like “Can gentiles be part of the church?” and “How are a master and a slave to behave?”.
5) I don’t think the church or applying the Gospel died in 330AD.  This is what the church continues today.
6) The Church does define the authority of statements in the dogma of the church and in the encyclicals.
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Finally some questions to ask yourself:
- Did Christ abandon his church and the bishops?
- Did the Spirit stop inspiring the leaders of the church?
- Did Christ instruct the church to stop spreading and explaining the Gospel before or after the bible was written down?
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PS - I am imperfect so please explain to me if you think I have made an error.

Casting Crowns, I am not going to keep repeating myself. As a fellow Catholic, it is YOU who do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches. With the Catholic Church, the Church you belong to and profess at Mass to believe what the Church teaches, it is Scripture AND Tradition. This is NOT my opinion.

St. Paul tells the Philippians2: 2"complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.”
By having thousands of Protestant denominations that believe different things, and Catholics like you that do not believe the teaching of the Catholic Church, I ask you- Are we in full accord and of one mind? No we are not.

Also from the Catechism: ” “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine wellspring, come together in fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal” (no. 80). It goes on to say: “And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching” (no. 81).”

And, 2Thess 2:15

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2:15).” Either by word of mouth or letter.

Why do you not accept this?

Also, I don’t know why you bring up Salvation. I have not been discussing ‘requirements’ for Salvation. I am simply trying to explain to you what the Catholic Church teaches regarding Scripture and Tradition and you are trying to turn it into something else.

Question:  If the Spirit inspires the leader of the church, why can’t it inspire others without the “telephone effect” of the leaders of the church?  Humans are fallible.  They put their own spin on things.  Why is it that we cannot, per the church, receive inspiration from Spirit? 

@Joan:  I am not degrading Christianity.  I am questioning things that you believe, and you haven’t given me any reasons why you believe them, or why you believe that me talking directly to God and Goddess is wrong.  Your definition of peddling is completely different from the widely recognized definition.  I have spoken of my faith, but I have not asked anyone to convert.  It is not in my faith to force, coerce or beg for converts.  If people want to convert, they may ask me questions, but I will not tell them they have to or ask them to.  I am in charge of my own spirituality.  No one else’s.  As for your mention of the “Rock”, you did not specify which rock, and there are many in Catholicism.  You were right in that Christ founded the basis of Christianity.  His Apostles expanded from there, and it branched into many forms because of the politics surrounding the religions.  You have yet to point to any text that shows that Jesus founded Catholicism, as you say He did.  He founded the basis of Christianity, and that is completely different.  As for the last paragraph of one of my previous posts, I was anticipating that you would retort that my knowledge is false because it wasn’t Catholic.  It was.  Something that you seem to be under the impression of is that anyone that is not Catholic and as devout to blindly follow as you seem to be is not worthy in God’s eyes and is below you.  Your words have show great disdain for me.  Unfortunately, it’s only after you die that you will realize the truth.

@Casting Crowns I think that I see what the problem is. Tradition for the Catholic doesn’t mean stuff that was made up after the fact by men. It’s not “added requirements”. Tradition is simply the teachings of Jesus that were not recorded in the written Gospel accounts (or in the canon epistles, for that matter). John writes of there being many acts and sayings of Jesus not recorded in his book; further, I don’t think that the case can be made that the Synoptic accounts are intended to be exhaustive. Tradition for the Catholic is simply those teachings of Christ not passed down in Scripture. Which is why they are necessary for salvation.
@Rob dude, rock on.

@Lina Why doesn’t God give each of us individually the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? I think it’s simply because He didn’t promise that. I don’t know how much of a real answer you expect, but I guess it’s just that we take Him at His word on that one.

Lina, the Holy Spirit will inspire each of us when it comes to our own personal lives particular to each person. But, from a Catholic perspective, God has given Authority to interpret Scripture and to protect and preach God’s Truth. As you said, humans are fallible. And we can see that by all the different beliefs that people have. We see it in the many different Christian denominations, yet, as Christians we are supposed to be of one mind with regard to God and we are not. The Catholic Church claims that the Holy Spirit will guide the Teaching Magesterium of the Church in all Truth when speaking on faith and morals, so that it cannot mislead the people. And it has not changed it’s teaching in 2000 years. Disciplines, yes, but not teaching on faith and morals. Doctrine is developed and expanded upon over time, but it does not change.

I don’t know what you mean about there being ‘many rocks’ in Catholicism. I gave you the quote in Scripture that pertained to the Rock on which Jesus founded the Church. Could you explain to me what other ‘rocks’there are in Catholicism?

I did not say that Jesus founded Catholicism, although you could say He did. I will not repeat myself though. Please see these posts for my answers to your question.

Posted by Joanp62 on Tuesday, Oct 16, 2012 12:03 PM (EST)

Posted by Joanp62 on Wednesday, Oct 17, 2012 10:42 AM (EST)

Jesus founded ONE Church, period. It is MAN who ‘messed it up’ and that is why we have so many different denominations.

Lastly, you write of me: ” that is not Catholic and as devout to blindly follow as you seem to be is not worthy in God’s eyes and is below you.  Your words have show great disdain for me. ”

That is your perception, but it is false. God knows what is in my heart. I wrote earlier that I respected you, but I do not respect paganism. I have a right to that, as you have a right to disrespect Christianity. It is you that has been posting lies (although you believe them to be true) about my faith, I have not said anything about yours except that it is false. We will know for sure after we die, or we will know nothing if the Atheists are right.

Scaevola, I think Casting Crowns knows that. They are Catholic too. They admitted to me that they believe the Church is wrong about Sacred Tradition.

Lina -
You referenced verses about which so-called scholars object to in the Bible, saying they are added or have been changed.

I looked up the verses you mentioned, and found the following - please tell me if we are on the same page.

John 7:53 to John 8:11 is the account of the woman caught in adultery.  I do not understand why that would pose a problem for anyone.  It merely describes an event that illustrates the character of God and how He acts.
What’s the big deal about that story? 

Secondly, you referenced all of John 21, and verses from Mark.  John 21 is about Jesus appearing to people after His Resurrection.  Mark 16:9- Mark 16:20 is also about Jesus appearing to people after His Resurrection.

So what is the issue with those accounts?  An objection to accounts of Jesus being seen in His risen Body would unravel fast, because there are just too many references to back up the truth behind those verses.  Accounts of Jesus’ Resurrection is backed up in many other places in the Bible.

Further, right after the tomb was found empty of His body, the Jewish leaders tried to conspire & say Jesus’ apostles took the body.  A cover-up was concocted & attempted immediately, and not at all secret.

Peter and John wrote about having seen the Risen Jesus; it’s written that people were still alive that had also seen the Risen Jesus back then. Most of those apostles died for what they believed to be true.  Why would they die, if it was not true?  Take out the accounts of people seeing the Risen Jesus, and one demolishes the whole Bible, and eliminates the entire Gospel (that saves).

Regarding the terms ‘poisoner’ and ‘sorcerer or witch’.  The latter describes a person, so it’s a noun.  But a poisoner is a verb, someone that does something to poison.

So the words are different.  But the action is the same: a poisoner would poison something; in this case: poisoning the Truth of God’s word.  Israel was given the orders by God not to associate with pagans, to separate themselves for God, who was their only King.  It’s the same for Christians today, that are not to be unequally yoked with non-believers in Christ, because living in spiritual conflict makes life difficult and can even turn our hearts away from Jesus.

The Resurrected Jesus is a Christian’s King.  We are called to be consecrated and separated from the world, to serve a holy and triune Godhead: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit that “temples” within us.

Just like a skull and crossbones that is a sign on labels that contain poison, a Christian needs to be mindful to not allow toxic influences to weasle their way into our minds and our hearts, and that’s why we MUST know the truths of the Bible, in order to successfully fight against the “poisonous” information that kills.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, Jesus used Scripture to thwart the devil’s subtle poison, as he tried to bring Jesus down.  Jesus said, “It is written…” each time.  We are to do the same - we are to know what is written, in the New Testament, so that we too, can combat evil.

Ephesians Chapter 6, the Armor of the Holy Spirit, is the best weapon.  And the [fear] knowledge of the God of Israel: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the beginning of wisdom.  God reveals Himself to us in the Old Testament, and Jesus is the personification of the Father, in the New Testament.  Jesus said, “I and the Father are one. And if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” And no one comes to the Father, but by Me.

Rob - Scripture IS the Gospel.  The Old Testament Scripture predicted what everyone was to look for in a Messiah.  Jesus’ life fulfilled it all, to the last detail.  This is why He called the two men on the Road to Emmaus foolish, and hard-hearted, because He took them all the way from Moses to Calvary, and reminded them of what the Messiah’s life was to be like.  Jesus was born, to die.

Jesus rose, and due to the Resurrection - conquering death, a penalty for sin.  He being the first-born of the dead (the spotless, sinless Son of God, given to us as a Lamb, promised by Abraham to Isaac on Mount Moriah)
proved He is God.  This IS the Gospel.  The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New Testament.  No more is being written about salvation.  “It is finished.”  Jesus sat down, at the Father’s right Hand.

@Lina said: “The following three passages are probably the most well documented and accepted forgeries, being accepted by mainline and liberal Biblical scholars. John 7:53 to John 8:11…”
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I wouldn’t consider this kind of thing a forgery.  The church spent years gathering manuscripts during the 4th century to put together the New Testament and this kind of account appears to be in some versions and not in others.  An early bishop who remembered the event may have added this passage to John’s Gospel or John may have added an account from another gospel into an updated edition or it may have been misplaced from Luke/Acts.
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Since there were many letter of the early church and many accounts of the gospel and life of Jesus Christ, it should not shock or be of too great a concern that what was assembled in the bible ended up with some merged text.
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The church has reviewed this and determined that while it may not have been written by John, it is valid and part of the inspired scripture.  But if you do not believe in Christ and you do not believe in the Spirit and you do not believe in Christ’s church then you probably don’t really care.
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This kind of thing does not shake my faith, in fact I am surprised there are so few discontinuities.  So no concern here.
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BTW - Lina, if the translation of one word was all that invalidated your faith, I would be shocked.  I’m comfortable putting up the scriptures and the body of church teaching against your Stephen King novel any day.  In fact I find more error in what you have posted in this column that I would tolerate in any good horror novel.

Joanp62 and Scaevola have got it.  They are correct. The only thing I can add is that each Protestant Denomination has their own oral tradition, but this tradition was not handed down to us by the apostles. It is a false tradition. That is why—unless you really understand your own faith very well—studying the Bible with non-Catholics is very dangerous. YOU ARE SUBMITTING TO AN AUTHORITY THAT IS NOT THAT OF JESUS CHRIST, by studying the Bible with non Catholics, i.e. you are a fool. The whole idea of Scripture Alone is not in the Bible, nor is it in the Oral Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church handed down by Jesus Christ.  “Scripture Alone” is from the Protestant oral tradition.  I do sympathize if your Catholic pastor will not let you have a Bible study. But a Bible study with others is completely unnecessary. Read the Bible every day, a little bit each day,  beginning to end and ask God the HOly Spirit to enlighten you. This works as long as you are firmly rooted in your Catholic faith as presented by the New Catholic Catechism, or you use the catechism as a resource to look things up. The Catholic Church says Scripture should be studied in context. You have to study every passage in the context of the book its in, and then in the context of the whole Bible. Protestant oral traditions tend to cut it up into pieces and give you one liners that are meaningless unless you read them in the context of the whole passage. So reading the Bible yourself every night for 15 minutes, beginning to end and ask God the Holy Spirit to explain it, or ask your guardian angels to explain it or ask the Child Jesus to read it out loud to you. Such a faithful practice will be far more beneficial to understanding the Bible than joining a Protestant Bible Study. The Navarre Bible is excellent if you want to read the commentary of the early Church Fathers along with the Bible (the men taught by the apostles). That is your Catholic Oral Tradition combined with Scripture. God bless you. Susan Fox

@Terah James
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So we do not jump around, and because I do not want us to confuse Gospel, Scripture and Revelation, nor get caught up in our own wording, let’s address what I think is the appropriate section of the Catechism.
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Is there something here that you disagree with?
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http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
—-From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Chapter 2 Article 2—-
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

74     God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”:29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth: (851)
God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31
I. The Apostolic Tradition

75     “Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.”32 (171)
In the apostolic preaching…
76     In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
— orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received—whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
— in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing.”34
...continued in apostolic succession
77     “In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them ‘their own position of teaching authority.’”35 Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.”36 (861)
78     This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”37 “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”38 (174, 1124, 2651)
79     The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church—and through her in the world—leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.”39
II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source…
80     “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal.”40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age.”41
...two distinct modes of transmission
81     “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”42 (113)
“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”43
82     As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
83     The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition. (1202, 2041, 2684)
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical, or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium.
——

Susan Fox - by all your postings, I can tell you are very sincere, and that you have a heart for Jesus.  With that said, have you ever been to a non-Catholic Christian church or done a Bible Study with non-Catholics?  Your thoughts make it sound as if Catholics and Christians are like night and day, and ALL beliefs held by non-Catholics are wrong, created by men and are not Holy Spirit-inspired.

Yet, from my own experience, the Christian faith is the Christian faith all over (in churches that are not apostate… by the way - I know of Catholic parishes that are lone-rangers, and that buck the system: be it Rome, or their diocese, the result of weak and liberal leadership).

There is but ONE Body of Christ & ONE Groom: Jesus.  We are either “IN” Jesus, like branches attached to The Vine, or we, collectively, are *outside* of Jesus, our Groom, and not part of His Body, the Church.

You wrote about the Bible: “...ask the Child Jesus to read it out loud to you.”  Susan, there is a danger in that kind of thinking.  I know your heart is in the right place.  But Jesus has risen!  He is victorious, a grown Man in His resurrected Body, in Heaven.

When He ascended, He left us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to be with us until His return.  Romans 8 indicates that neither height, nor depth, nor angels, nor principalities, nor any created thing (like ourselves) can separate us from the love of God, which is found in the Christ (Messiah), Jesus.

There is a great danger from reducing Jesus to a Baby in a manger, or to a little child, because the Son of the living God loses His authority, His power, His dominion, His Sovereign reign that we know is now and everlasting.

God the Father has glorified Jesus and Himself, through Jesus’ death and Resurrection as a MAN.  Jesus is a grown man, in His resurrected Body.  We must never reduce Jesus to a child again, a vulnerable little one that we, or Rome, can control.

Jesus never handed over His Authority to anyone.  Jesus is Lord of all! The Sovereign, All-powerful, All-knowing, Ever present & Eternal King, now and forever.  The Word made Flesh, revealed to us.  Allelujia!

Rob this explains it very well. I hope Casting Crowns reads this.

Thank you.

Terah, you quoted Susan: “.ask the Child Jesus to read it out loud to you.”  And then stated :“Susan, there is a danger in that kind of thinking.”

What Susan said is very much in line with Catholic spirituality and is encouraged by the Church. There are many different devotions within the Church: devotions to the Blessed Mother, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, AND devotion to the infant/child Jesus. St. Anthony of Padua had a special devotion to the Child Jesus and Jesus would appear to him as a Child.

Telling Susan that ‘this kind of thinking’ is dangerous, shows that, while you do have a lot of knowledge about the Church, you are mistaken in some aspects. I’m not saying that you as a Catholic should have all these devotions, just that you need to be careful before you correct another believer for something that you think is wrong when it is not. 
And if you do not agree, then this is another matter where you and the Catholic Church do not see eye to eye.

I want to add that seeing Jesus as a Child does not take away from His Power, Glory or Authority. It is a reminder that Our Lord chose to come to earth first as a vulnerable, helpless baby to remind us to be HUMBLE, and in his Child(hood) to remind us that we too must become like little children if we wish to enter Heaven. I’m sure there is more to it theologically, perhaps Susan can explain more.

Re: Rob, I agree 100 percent with Rob’s posting of the New Catholic Catechism on the relationship between Scripture and Tradition.
Re: Terah James and Joanp62:
Yes, I would love to have the Child Jesus personally come to explain Scripture to me because He is God. The Child Jesus appeared to St. Anthony of Padua, and explained Scripture to him just as He did to those disciples in the Bible on the road to Emmaus. You see a statue of St. Joseph, he is holding the Christ Child. You see a statue of St. Anthony, HE is holding the Christ Child. That was one of his miracles. St. Anthony of Padua —after having the Child Jesus explain Scritpure to him—went out to preach to the Waldensians (early Protestants). They would not listen to him, and they hid in their house. So he preached the gospel of Jesus Christ anyway, and he happened to be standing by a body of water. The fish came out and listened to him. (The people hiding in the houses saw the miracle too)
BUT, I was not suggesting that you have to pray Scripture that way, I was saying find your own way. Everyone is unique. Everyone has a unique relationship with God. I was saying “Rely on God” to explain the Scripture to you. And whatever spirituality works for you, use it. The Holy Spirit is the author, so He can explain it to you. you can ask the Risen and Glorified Jesus Christ in all His power and authority to read it to you (this is really an image of the Catholic Church). However, if you do wish the Child Jesus to teach you, and this would require a certain amount of humility on your part, He must have the marks of the wounds of the cross. If you ever have a vision of Jesus in any stage of his life and he does not have the marks of the wounds of Christ, this is likely Satan. Satan cannot mimic the crucifixion. (see the letters of John) So expect the Baby Jesus with wounds. He died on the cross and is glorified. It’s over and done with. The marks of the passion death and resurrection of Jesus Christ will not disappear if you have a vision of the Infant Jesus.
But we are not talking about a vision here. We are talking of a prayer method that St. Anthony used, and he used it so effectively that Jesus gave him a vision! This is Catholic Spirituality as taught by the saints. In the early stages of prayer, we do all the work meditating on Scripture. Then God begins to give us graces we don’t have to work for any more. And then he gives us infused graces. So maybe I said my Rosary and imagined myself at the foot of the cross. That was me working at it. Then over the years, I continued the pious practice, and I started getting insights into what it was like to be Mary or John at the foot of the cross, and finally, one day I am praying and Jesus takes me to the foot of the cross. I’m actually there. Maybe I still have my pajamas on, and I’m standing at the foot of the cross, and I’m really there. This is called infused contemplation. (See The Three Ages of the Spiritual Life by Fr.Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. It’s like an encyclopedia on the spiritual life) In fact, I am looking forward someday to standing at that moment at the foot of the cross when Christ died and seeing all the saints who came in their pajamas, or whatever. It’ll be like one great slumber party.

Terah, I am 59 years old. I spent 30 years doing door to door evangelization two hours a week for the Roman Catholic Church—with the permission of my Catholic pastor in every parish I served. I have sat down and talked with every major denomination in the United States. Plus I conducted two-hour Catholic Discussions
Groups two or three times a month during the same 30 years so I could teach Catholics about Mormonism, Islam, Artificial Contraception, their own faith.  I have been to other Churches, no doubt about it. But if you sit down with their believers for two hours and discuss Scripture you understand this: They all had another book besides Scripture. It was their oral tradition. They would say to us, I want to argue with you from Scripture Alone. So we brought our Bible. We argued from Scripture Alone, but they always pulled out another book to help them because, my dear, there is no one who knows Scripture like my husband. That book they pulled out, that was their oral tradition, and it didn’t come from the Catholic Church, nor from Jesus Christ. It came from the human founder of their religion.  One Jehovah’s Witness brought his little son to our house. We were a young couple then. I kept smiling at the boy, but he looked at me in terror. Why did he look at me in terror? I learned years later, JW’s teach we are in the realm of Satan. The boy believed that I was Satan. His JW father taught him that. The man was the best of his cult. He could not win with my husband. The funny part is that when they left he yelled back at us, “I understand you! You think I belong to some crazy cult.” We nodded guiltily. (We had treated him like Jesus Christ because that is the Catholic approach) Then he yelled, “Well let me tell you! If your Church was doing what it was supposed to do, there wouldn’t be any crazy cults like mine!” That was the Holy Spirit speaking through that man. I recognized His voice. He is right. IF the Catholic Church and the people in it understood and were living their faith, there wouldn’t be any separated brethren. 
Terah, in this I agree with you: Jesus Christ hid little gifts in each church though the fullness of faith resides in the Catholic Church. Look at the Mormans. You come into their Church they all know your name before you leave. Does that happen in a Catholic Church? You are supposed to dress up for Church. Don’t have the money? The Mormons make sure they have clothing stores where their members may purchase for a very low price clothes worthy to be worn to Church.  Nice clothes at the Catholic Church? Yes, but often the skirts are too high or whatever.  Need food? IF you join the Mormons, they will give you food. I have met poor lapsed Catholics who were too afraid to return to the Catholic Church because they would lose their Mormon food.  I had Mormons paint my house. The painter—an ex Catholic Hispanic turned Mormon - rarely showed up to do his job. The manager—a Mormon - expected me to understand because he had family problems. His wife’s relative was sick. If I wanted an easy life, I could become a Mormon, have one of them hire me, and never show up for work because they would be so glad that I was Mormon! I’m exaggerating right now. But the point is that the culture of the Mormon Church is excellent in terms of caring for their fellow Mormons. When I do door to door and I meet someone from another faith I always tell the the good part of their Church and then invite them to try mine—if they are open. You have to judge that. I - with all my heart—want all the Mormons to join the Catholic Church because they will bring their culture. It’s a good culture. But me join the Mormon Church? No. I would not become a Pagan Polytheist. For all their Christian trappings that’s what they are. I met a former Catholic a couple months ago who had become Mormon. I said, “Do you think you are a Christian?”  He said, “Yes of course.”  I said, do you believe that you are in the process of becoming a god? He said, “Yes, everyone should become a god.” I said, “Do you believe that God the Father is a physical corporal being separate from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.?” He said yes. (They argue over whether the Father physically had relations with Mary or whether the Holy Spirit did it in order to conceive Christ by the normal means).
So then I said to this man, “Do you know that Christianity believes in only One God. And you have identified many gods to me in your religion?” Inside himself he freaked. When we passed him later, he had called the Mormon missionaries right over to his house and was getting reassured about his new beliefs. Now I know that Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses really aren’t Christians, no matter what they think. But these movements grew out of Protestantism. I know you can have Bible study with a Baptist and have fewer disagreements. I have an excellent friend, and she goes to Baptist Bible study all the time, but Josie knows her faith inside and out, and also her Bible, and she’s converting them. Joining a Protestant Bible study would be very dangerous for someone who does not know their faith, or who is struggling with some aspects of their faith, and they want the Protestants to tell them the Catholics are wrong. (I’m not saying this is you.) For this person, I’d say, work out your issues with the Catholic faith, and then join the Protestant Bible study. If I had the time I would have no problem with joining a Protestant Bible Study, and I would expect to find many beautiful insights in the discussion that would not contradict my Catholic faith, but I would come expecting to gently lead them to see the Catholic Church in a new light, and hopefully join it. Many times I’ve carried out one-on-one discussions with people of other faiths, and sometimes they converted, but I remember there were those who when I got too close to the point where they could see that if they continued to talk to me they would have to make a decision, they simply stopped talking to me. They were good people. They saw the truth, but they needed healing and until that could take place they couldn’t take the next step. They were afraid. If you watch the Journey Home with Marcus Grodi on EWTN, you see many Protestant preachers converted to Catholicism. But their stories always involve a high level of courage and personal loss. I personally know Protestant men, good men, who became Catholic, and they lost their wives as a result. Terrible sorrow there. But Jesus told the disciples—just last Sunday’s gospel—if you leave father, mother, brother for me, your reward in heaven will be great.

So arguing about a prayer method like devotion to the Child Jesus kind of begs the question, which is why not study the Bible on your own. It is a tried and true Catholic prayer method called Lectio Divina. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about it:
“In Christianity, Lectio Divina (Latin for divine reading) is a traditional Catholic practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God and to increase the knowledge of God’s Word. It does not treat Scripture as texts to be studied, but as the Living Word.[1]”

Actually what they say about Lectio Divina is very good:
“Traditionally Lectio Divina has 4 separate steps: read, meditate, pray and contemplate. First a passage of Scripture is read, then its meaning is reflected upon. This is followed by prayer and contemplation on the Word of God.[2]

The focus of Lectio Divina is not a theological analysis of biblical passages but viewing them with Christ as the key to their meaning. For example, given Jesus’ statement in John 14:27: “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you” an analytical approach would focus on the reason for the statement during the Last Supper, the biblical context, etc. But in Lectio Divina rather than “dissecting peace”, the practitioner “enters peace” and shares in the peace of Christ.[3] In Christian teachings, this form of meditative prayer leads to an increased knowledge of Christ.[4][5]” Then it goes on to say the practice dates back to the 3rd century (it might go back earlier) and in Dei Verbum, Pope Paul VI recommended the practice of Lectio Divina for the general public. But you have to start reading the Bible beginning to end. You can’t superstitiously open the Bible and say, “Jesus show me a message!” And then let it flop open. It must be done responsibly and conscious of the fact that God is leading you. Read the Bible as prayer. Sadly, I remember one Seven Day Adventist, who when I recommended he read Scripture and just ask God what it means, he refused. He had shelves and shelves of books on his religion written by a human being, Ellen G. White. And though he told us that he never slept and he studied the Bible all the time, he didn’t really study the Bible, he studied Ellen G. White. He wasn’t really saved by Jesus Christ as he believed, he was saved by Ellen G. White (idolatry). I pointed to all his books and said throw them away and read the Bible. This man said over and over, “Scripture Alone!” But he wouldn’t just read the Bible without Ellen G. White. Ellen G. White was his oral tradition, and his idol. He was like the rich young man who went home sad when Jesus said, “Go sell all you have and follow me.” The sadness in that was the young man could not follow Jesus. Neither could the 7 day adventist. He couldn’t let go of Ellen G. White.
My video duplicating Protestant friend is always trying to convert me based on the fact that his pastor has messages from the Holy Spirit. I said to him, “Ask Jesus to give you a sign that this is true or not true.” He refused. He said he simply trusted the pastor because he’d known him 25 years. He couldn’t be wrong.  Now I didn’t say this to him, but you are supposedly a Christian saved by Jesus Christ and you can’t ask Him if you should accept your pastor’s visions? That also is idolatry. The idol is the pastor. That also is a false oral tradition.
God bless you. Susan Fox

Saint Theresa of Lisieux was also known as Saint Theresa of the Infant Child Jesus, was she not?

Thank you Lina for your answer, you seem to be a very compasionate person. I never did conjure up spirits nor tried to communicate with the dead;I have enough on my plate communicating with live persons. I do not fear the deceased either. But the events that I lived and finally described as the work of a demon where physically hard on me and it seemed aimed at preventing me from going to mass. I think it was attacking my freedom of conscience and as such not a very nice spirit. The “voice” that was interfering with my sleep also, was threatning of taking away all that I love if I was to go to church. Not a very sweet spirit. In my view, there was just one way to shut it up: Jesus Christ. And it worked, so now I am more than “indebted” to His name, don’t you think?

@Susan Fox:  [“I was saying “Rely on God” to explain the Scripture to you. And whatever spirituality works for you, use it. The Holy Spirit is the author, so He can explain it to you.”]  Now you are running contrary to Catholic teaching. Only the church can interpret Scripture for you.  All understanding must be confirmed by and through the Magisterium.  The idea the Holy Spirit is able to reveal anything to you personally is not the official teaching of the Catholic church.

@Susan Fox:  Why would the resurrected (grown man) Christ Jesus, Son of God, King of Kings seated on the Throne of Heaven, Lord of Lords, Master of the Universe, All Holy and Mighty God—only temporarily incarnate in time past—come back later and choose to appear as a child? And furthermore, why not as a man as he ascended?  The angel told His apostles He would return “in like manner.”  Like manner is not that of a child or a baby Jesus.

Susan - When anyone in the Old Testament or in the New Testament saw the Father or Jesus, the Son, they fell on their faces and worshipped.  That worship is going on in Heaven, right now.

Jesus came as a baby, and grew, yes.  But the danger of reducing Him to an infant, or a little boy NOW is two-fold:
1) It is to disregard how He revealed Himself to us LAST, as the Risen Jesus, in His grown Body, reducing Jesus to a Person we can CONTROL and 2) It does not prepare us for when He comes again - and we are all told to look for Jesus’ return.  He will NOT come as a schoolboy.

Secondly, where does the Holy Spirit factor into this equasion?  After Jesus rose, He told the Apostles He was sending the Holy Spirit to them.
But then, I get this fact only from Jesus’ own words found in the New Testament, before He ascended into Heaven.

Susan - while I applaud your church work, please let’s define “Christian” first.  A Christian (and that could include Catholics) follows Jesus, and not any one man or woman.

A Christian believes Jesus is the only Son of God, born of the Virgin, Mary, lived, died and rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and He is coming again, to rule His Church, forever.

A Christian, a forgiven sinner that has fellowship with the Father, based on Jesus’ sacrifice, is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit resides in the person’s heart (see Paul’s letter to the Ephesians).

While I support the Romney/Ryan ticket, and I applaud each for their being God-fearers (no abortion, no same sex marriage, no loss of religious liberties and the freedom to form our own conscience, to square with God’s revealed truths—unlike the Democrats that voiced a NO vote, wanting to take God OUT of their platform), religions like Mormon, Jehova Witness, Christian Science, are not really Christian.  Each follows a PERSON—not unlike the popes throughout the ages…which is why it behooves ALL of us to always “test the spirits” and to “hold fast to what is true”, and we know that, from God’s word: the Bible.

If Protestants and other non-Catholic Christian denominations hold fast to what they know is true from God’s word: the Bible, then they are indeed, Christian.  There are not that many Bible truths that Christians are to know, in order to be in the Body of Christ - the ‘catholic’ [aka, the ‘universal’] church.  There is only ONE Bride, and ONE Groom - Jesus.

Susan - try to spend more time with other Christians, those that believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, and that have NO OTHER book they bring out, to use for additional information.

Terah and Casting Crowns, why don’t you, in all humility, admit that you lean more Protestant than Catholic and work on trying to get back in sync with the Catholic Church, or join the denomination that incorporates your beliefs more fully?  I am simply stunned that you take it upon yourselves to admonish Susan, myself and others who know and follow ALL of the Catholic Church’s teaching, when you yourselves openly dissent from it, and put down valid and worthy spiritual devotions, that are approved by the Church to assist us on our earthly pilgrimage. And in spite of all the resources we give you to show that things like Scripture and Tradition are valid Church teaching, you ignore those and never address the proof we give to you.

I have a lot that I could respond to, but only a moment so I will make this as brief as possible. 

@Terah:  You said something about supporting Romney/Ryan because they issue “no loss of religious liberties and the freedom to form our own conscience”.  But they are only protecting your religious liberties as Christians.  My faith does not tell me the same things yours does, yet your morals are being thrust on me.  That’s not a sign of a good leader, it’s the sign of a dictator.  This country was NOT founded as a Christian country as is being touted by the far right wing, it was founded on religious FREEDOM.  Politics and religion were never meant to mix.  Personally, I don’t like either mainstream candidate, but that’s a completely different discussion.

@Casting Crowns said
“Only the church can interpret Scripture for you.  All understanding must be confirmed by and through the Magisterium.  The idea the Holy Spirit is able to reveal anything to you personally is not the official teaching of the Catholic church.”
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Please provide a reference for this statement. 
I think you have something confused or maybe I read this incorrectly.
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1) Everyone must live the Gospel and interpret how it applies to their life.
2) Yes, if your view is in conflict with the church on a matter of faith, then you need to understand two things.
a) What is the level of certainty/infallibility of the churches teaching?
b) Why does the Church teach this and what is the root of the disagreement.
[As an example, let’s say you interpret that “Son of Man” means that Jesus was not God. If you look you will find that Catholic teaching is “Jesus Christ is True God and True Son of God. (De fide)” this is Divine Revelation and dogma of the Catholic Church, you may not hold a position otherwise and be in the church]
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However, in many cases the church will not have stated an interpretation and it is up to you and the Spirit to apply it to your life.
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If you have read this “The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” then yes that is correct - that is the obligation of the church, to resolve matters of faith.
It does NOT mean you cannot and should not read and interpret the bible.
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We learned a prayer to say before we read the bible:
“Father, anoint me with your Holy Spirit, so that as I read your eternal word, your word may penetrate my whole being and transform me. Grant me the blessing to be a faithful disciple in believing the Word of God and that I may be a light shining upon all who are in darkness. Amen”
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Some on this site seem to dismiss the church and any authority outside the Catholic bible.  However to do so is to deny that the authority that captured the Bible was the authority of God through the church.  It is also to deny that many things that modern and protestant Christians speak of as givens would not exist and not be obvious without the guidance of the Spirit through the church (e.g. the creed and the elimination of many many heresies).
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One reason I love and defend Christ’s church is because I believe it is an incredible gift to us and has provided us with 2000 years of prayerful study and application of logic and divine inspiration.
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Finally on Revelation. The church teaches “With Christ and the Apostles General Revelation concluded. (Sententia certa)”.  Therefore what is revealed to you is not new revelation, but how you should interpret or how you should apply it to your life.

@Lina
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I think the idea is they are fighting to prevent govt from restricting religious liberties of any kind.
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What religious liberties of yours are being restricted?
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“A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have….” 

@Casting Crowns If Susan Fox is a devout Catholic, then her interpretation of Scripture must needs conform to the teaching of the Church. I think she simply forgot to mention that all private interpretations must be compared to the Church’s own teaching to see if they match up. If they don’t, then one’s own interpretation is wrong and not inspired by the Spirit, because as a Catholic Ms Fox takes it up that the Church contains the fullness of truth. Now, not all passages of Scripture in particular have Official Church Teaching on their proper reading; therefore, as a Catholic Ms Fox will submit her interpretation to the rules of faith and charity—if it contradicts any Church doctrine or the strictures of charity, her interpretation should be scrapped as false.
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None of this is to deny the value of proper private interpretation. Rather, it is important simply to recognize its limits and boundaries, as well as the fact that there is nothing in what Ms Fox said that’s contrary to Church teaching.
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Don’t be so quick to attack, my friend! Charity dictates that we give people the benefit of the doubt when things are uncertain.
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@Terah James and such If Christ chose to reveal Himself in private revelations as a Child (eg, the Infant of Prague), then I see no problem. The revelations are private, so if you choose to disbelieve in them that’s your God-given right as a Catholic. :) Don’t attack those who do accept approved revelations, though—if they are good enough for the Church they should be good enough for you.

Terah James, please bring up the issue with Jesus, He’ll help you. From my perspective, it seems that it is only in your personal imagination that this is a problem (devotion to the Christ Child). You have no authority except your own mind to distrust this. And think, generations of Christians since the time of Christ have worshipped Him as an Infant at Christmas time. That is the whole purpose of the Christmas liturgy. This is not a Catholic issue. Tons of Protestant denominations worship the Christ Child at Christmas. Ask the Lord, why does this issue so completely consume me?
Casting Crowns you haven’t read my posts. You are taking bits of them and twisting it. I have addressed the issue of reading Scripture privately in the context of the teaching of the Church. I’m sorry you didn’t understand. God bless you. Susan Fox

Susan Fox - generations of Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, remember Jesus’ birth, and they worship Him as He is.  Jesus just is not a baby anymore.  The danger in turning Him back into a baby is two-fold:

1- A baby can be controlled, whereas King Jesus cannot be controlled anymore.

Remember, He could have summoned angels and even by His own power, removed Himself from the Cross.  But He chose not to, for our sake.  But people ought not to be changing how Jesus is revealed to be: the Son of God, and grown, in His Resurrection Body.

Would the men on the Road to Emmaus have recognized Jesus so readily, as He was breaking the Bread, if He was in His boyhood stage of growth?  No.

2- We are to look for Jesus to come again.  How can we look for Jesus to come again, if we do not know Who it for whom we are looking?  He will come victorious, as King of the Universe. 

As for generations of people doing something, there is a joke that sums this up, perhaps you’ve heard it:

A newly married young woman is preparing a Thanksgiving turkey at her home for the first time.  After she puts the turkey in the pan, she slices off the top section, before putting it into the oven.

Her husband asks why she did that, and she said, “That’s how you cook a turkey.”  In his family, and in every photo of a turkey he’s ever seen, the bird is kept intact, with the full breast nicely browned.  So he tells her and she says, “My mother cooked turkey like this, all my life.  Ask her when she comes.  She’ll tell you this is how you cook a turkey.”

When her mother showed up, he asked her and sure enough, the mother agreed with her daughter, that is how a to cook a turkey.  She said even her own mother did it like that.  So thoroughly confused, the young groom asked his grandmother-in-law about it, when she arrived.

Grama said, “Well, we lived in a small home for all our married life, and our oven was so small that cutting off the top of the turkey was the only way I could get it to fit in my oven.  I don’t know why THEY do that.”

We need to look at traditions and see if they square with what the Author of Life says is true, and not just do something or believe something, because lots of generations before us did it.  Even during the days of the Apostles, there were misguided converts, about which we are warned. We are to hold to what we KNOW is true.  We know, from Scripture.

Terah, you are being very condescending and close to being arrogant. The Church believes in Tradition, with a capital T, not silly little traditions that may lose their meaning. As a Catholic, you need to hold to ALL of the Church’s teachings. She has been given that authority by Jesus Himself. She IS guided by the Holy Spirit in her teachings. The Catholic Church is NOT wrong.  You have been told over and over by various Catholic posters who know the Faith, and yet you stubbornly hold on to your own way of thinking. We are all called to holiness and will not enter Heaven until we ARE holy. That is why there is Purgatory, for those of us who die in God’s grace, but are still not pure enough for Heaven. But,God has given us the means through His Church to grow in holiness and you disregard the very means that He gives us to come to union with Him. That includes going to Jesus through His Mother, and possibly devotion to the Child Jesus.

Why don’t you read the Catechism put out by the Church you belong to? You will learn alot.

Dear Terah,
Logically, a baby who is God Man cannot be controlled by anyone. He was never at any stage in His life controlled by another.  He is God. He is never controlled. The amazing thing is that God chose to come into the world in very poor circumstances, and to take the humble Mary and Joseph as his earthly parents. He at no point was controlled by them, but chose obedience as He did at the cross, obedience to His Father unto death. It’s in the Bible after he went missing for three days age 12, it says he returned with them and was obedient to them. That is a whole lot different than being controlled. I am obedient to my husband, but he does not control me. And I’m not even God. Honey, You need to speak to Jesus on this matter as it really sounds like you personally have issues with your own parents or someone in authority. There is no Christian sect in the world who would agree with you. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

@Susan Fox:  [“a baby who is God Man cannot be controlled by anyone.”]  Susan, the incarnation of Christ indicates “logically” (I’ll use your verbiage) that Messiah had a willingness to yield some aspect of His own divinity to become fully human.  The church readily agrees He was fully man as well as fully God.  For example, He could not be omnipresent on the earth in the incarnate.  You are totally incorrect to say Messiah as a baby could not be controlled.  In the human experience, His life as an infant and child was indeed controlled.  His life in these stages was dependent upon Joseph and Mary for food, shelter, clothing and protection.  When Herod sought to kill the Christ-child, did you expect the infant Jesus to transport Himself to Egypt on His own and live there alone for the first 12 years of life prior to settling in Nazareth?  You are also incorrect in your statement regarding other Christian faiths who do not agree with Terrah James.  All commemorate and celebrate the Christmas story telling of the birth of the Messianic Christ-child.  The point, however, is that He is reverenced *now* as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  He is no longer a baby, an infant, or even incarnate.  Your repeated insistence upon “schooling” everyone with your particular bent and condescenting tone on these matters has become tiresome.

@Casting Crowns and Susan Fox:  Do you guys read what you type?  You are both schooling everyone and have a condescending tone!  Do you both realize that you are second guessing God and His meanings behind His actions?  It amazes me that you continue on with this. 

@Joan62:  You say the Catholic church is never wrong.  So, ignoring and abetting Hitler was right?  The Crusades, killing millions of people (Thou shalt not kill ring a bell?) was right?  Rewriting the Bible to demonize women was right?  The Catholic church is run by HUMANS who “interpret” what God “tells them”.  That makes it fallible as humans are fallible. 

To whomever asked about the false passages in the Bible: those passages that I listed were added long after the Bible was written, by fake authors and are generally regarded by even the most conservative of Biblical scholars to be forgeries placed in the Bible to prove a social point at the time they were written.  The passages are forgeries.  Period. 

Now, I’m pretty sure the passage reads, “Judge not, that you be not judged.”  (Matthew 7:1)  I see a lot of judgement here, a lot of bitterness and “my way is really what the church deems right.”  If you are truly of the church, you ALL need to go back to your priests for direction and to affirm your faith in your church.  I think all of you hold a little of the truth, but none, not even the Pope you worship by kissing his ring, has the whole of the truth.  And we never will have it.

Lina, Lina, Lina. I’m very sorry you have fallen for the lies of those who hate the Catholic Church. The Church did not ignore or help Hitler. I suggest you look into Before the Dawn written by Eugenio Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII. Also, look up old NY Times articles from the 40’s. All praising Pope Pius the XII and what the Catholic Church did for the Jews during Hitler’s reign of terror. The ‘myth’ that you believe was started in the early 60’s by someone who hated the Church.

Millions killed by Christians during the Crusades? Another lie and exaggeration. You probably think the Crusades were started to forcibly spread Christianity, right? Well they weren’t. The Crusades were called because Muslims were invading and taking over Christian cities, towns, and Holy Sites and trying to spread Islam violently, and these people and places needed to be defended and protected.

Forgeries in the bible? It is NOT a fact, and most reasonable and honest bible scholars do not agree with your claim.

We are not promoting our own way-we are honestly and humbly trying to follow God and the Church He gave to us here on earth. We are trying to promote Truth.

Lina, you come here arrogantly posting lies and exaggerations, all the while singing the praises of your paganism. This is a Catholic site. If that bothers you, then you are free to mind your own business and get on with your life elsewhere.

@Lina
How old are you? 
You really do sound like a child and certainly seem to have very little understanding of history, the Catholic Church or formulating a logical argument.

@Lina What Joanp62 said was that the Church is never wrong in matters of faith and morals. In what the institution teaches. Not in what her members do, because in each of those cases the Churchmen were falling away from the teaching of the Church.

@Casting Crowns and Terah James If there are approved apparitions of the Christ Child, you have no business telling people that they shouldn’t believe that they are true. You do not determine the way that Christ can choose to reveal Himself to His faithful ones. Honoring His humility in His infanthood is a salutary practice, and can be helpful to the “little ones” of the faith. Chill out!

@Lina:  Joanp62 is correct.  Independent scholarship including non Catholic research estimate perhaps 50,000 to 60,000 people were put on trial during the Inquisition but likely only 2,000 were executed for heresey.  The Catholic church did exhume the bodies of dead Jews and put them on trial as well, but relatively few were convicted.  You have a distorted view of both Catholicism and Christianity in general which is probably due to those who promote conspiracies against the church

@Scaevola: Belief or not in approved apparations are not a requirement of salvation.  There is nothing in Scipture or Tradition to suggest Christ will return as a child or infant.  Conversely, the opposite is true.  At His ascension, the gospel (which we agree is without error) says the angel told His disciples:  “This Jesus will return in ‘like’ manner.”  “Like manner” means not as an infant or child.  Some have speculated He ascended as a Jewish Rabbi and will thus return as a Jewish Rabbi.

Susan Fox: I have no issues with authority figures, and submit as I should, to those that God commands.  We are to obey God, not men, when what God says (in the Bible, verses placed in context) differs from what man says.  Jesus grew up to be a Man.  He’s left His earthly body, for His resurrection Body, and He remains God. 

Scaevola: You wrote of “approved apparitions” of the Christ child.  While God can (and does) use whatever methods He wants to bring a soul to Christ, and to eternal life in Heaven, I doubt it, if just some bishop of a local diocese puts his stamp of approval on any apparition.

The same man is likely to have made poor choices about *other* church issues, and there is a lot of money to be made in selling trinkets at the sites where apparitions supposedly happened.

I was shocked, when many years ago, I saw all the souveniers at Fatima.  Further, the list of hearsay myths grows and grows.  There’s no end to it.  We should focus on Jesus, and on OBEYING Him.

@Casting Crowns I realize this. No Catholic is obliged to believe in (approved) private revelation. However, no Catholic should be chastised for believing in it, either. There’s nothing in an apparition like the Infant of Prague to suggest that Christ will come again at the Last Judgment as an infant. Rather, Christ’s point in such an apparition is to present an aspect of Himself (eg His humility) in a sensible and intelligible way for those of more childlike faith. These sorts of apparitions aren’t Christ coming again in the eschatological understanding—He wasn’t coming to pronounce judgment upon all the nations when He appeared to St Therese of the Child Jesus, for instance. Then again, He comes to us at every Mass in a manner similarly “unlike” the way He will manifest Himself on the last day, and the Eucharist is a doctrine of the faith. I really don’t see why there is a problem here.

Terah you continue to deny teaching from the Catholic Church. Bishops do have the authority to approve an alleged apparition. Of course this is not done lightly or very often and any claimed apparition is subject to a great deal of scrutiny and examination. You have been told by others that you wrongly continue to go along with YOUR OWN beliefs, instead of what is taught by the Catholic Church. The teaching authority of the Church, the Magesterium, teaches nothing that is contrary to the Gospel. Yet you stubbornly continue to hold Protestant, ie: heretical views, and reprimand us for being faithful to Christ and His Church. YOU are NOT obeying Our Lord, as He told His Apostles (and their successors) “He who hears you hears Me.”

forgeries:  http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm
Reischskonkordat - treaty between Nazi Germany and Vatican signed in 1933.
@Joan62:  You are exceptionally patronizing.  There is a difference, which you do not see, between facts and first-hand accounts, and that which is handed down as the story you can stomach.  If you looked outside the church’s FAQ’s, you’d find a wealth of information on things like the church and Hitler, especially a treaty called Reischskonkordat.  Not only did it give the Catholics living in Germany safety, it also assured that Rome would turn a blind eye to anything that happened to anyone else.  That is just as morally wrong as the people who actually ran the ovens in concentration camps.  Yes, there were parishes that helped the Jews.  There were individuals that had morals that compelled them to help.  Those issues are all well documented.  As is the treaty.  As for the Crusades, the complete estimates, from scholars and learned people, are between 1 and 4 MILLION people killed during the Crusades.  The purpose of the Crusades have been listed as two-fold: to take back Jerusalem from the Muslims who also claim it as Holy Land, and to threaten and convert anyone along the way.  If you converted, you were spared.  There are hundreds of books that outline this in facts and numbers.  I suggest you read a few.  Now, I would like to know where I’ve posted lies and exaggerations?  I can back up my posts with facts and figures that are accepted by a wide majority of Biblical scholars and historians.  I have not sung “the praises of” my “Paganism”.  I have explained my beliefs when it is warranted, asked questions, and responded.  I’ve also wondered, but not had answered, why it is Catholics feel the need to exorcise people because of their faith, which, if you recall, is the purpose of this article.  Also, I was not aware that this was a site only to be frequented by Catholics.  It was linked in a Pagan article, with the author if this article getting notification of that pingback.  I didn’t have a popup that warned me that it was strictly for Catholics, and that other ideas and questions were not permitted.  I came here seeking knowledge, and only got mistreated and called a liar.  It reminds me of why I originally left the church and her teachings.  It was mostly not the church, but her members like you that make anyone who has a question into a demon and a sinner.  Thank you for reminding me of that.  It makes me realize that my choice was the correct one. 
@Rob:  I’m just no longer bullied into thinking something is true when the facts say something different.  Let’s just say I’ve been around the block more times than many.  Thank you as well for reaffirming that my soul was right. 
@Scaevola:  As long as the church is run by a human, in this case, ultimately the Pope, there will be egos in the way of what God truly wants.  Hence, several papal orders that are against God’s teachings.
@Casting Crowns: I did not speak of in Inquisition.  Yes, far fewer were killed during the Inquisition, but mostly because that was a proverbial Witch hunt.  And it was still against God’s teachings in the Bible.
I only hope that if any of you wander past your small world of being Catholic and read anything on a Pagan site, you comment respectfully.  Most Pagans will respond in kind. 

Lina, I am a convert to Catholicism, and I found that the mere mention of questioning anything often draws the ire of some people, and they will often resort to labeling people or exaggeration, like saying we “hate” this or that.

There was nothing in any of your posts that I can remember that was singing the praises of paganism.  If I wrote anything that came across as smug or as anything but charitable, please forgive me.  It is only my intent to dialog and discuss my faith, not to attack or make anyone feel unwelcomed.  I too, have stumbled onto links from other sites, and made comments there, like you have done with this blog.

While I can’t speak FOR the National Catholic Register, as a commenter for the past few months, I’ve noticed the publication seems to be very welcoming of everyone’s opinions and ideas.

I’ve even learned a few things.  Granted, I learn more from non-Catholic Christians, because they can, in their own words, explain matters of the faith, not just what they have gleaned from childhood teaching, or because their parish priest said so.

I’ve noticed non-Catholics can give sources (such as Scripture) where we can “test the spirits” and see for ourselves, even using history such as the factual treaty you referenced above.  I never knew about that.

About doctrines and dogma, non-Catholic Christians just site the word of God more, the Holy Spirit being a trusted Source.  As my life-long Catholic friend says: “For me, the Bible is the Gold Standard of Measure!”
 

The Concordat may or may not have been a bad political move. There are opposing assessments. Either way, this has nothing to do with the Teachings of the Church. Because the Church has human beings in it, mistakes will be made and sometimes very bad things are done. The history of paganism is far from clean and pretty either.

I stand by what I said regarding the Crusades. I have read plenty on the subject.

You say you came here seeking knowledge, but from the very beginning you did nothing but post against the Church instead of asking respectful questions. From your first post on this thread :” As for Christianity in general, ANY religion that forces its doctrine on a group of people and kills them if they don’t obey is nothing more than an organized bully that doesn’t believe in its own faith.” Wow- how quickly we forget. You were insulting from the beginning.

Grow up. I belong to the Church because I believe it, not because of the people in it. If you left the Church because of some of the people, then your faith was very shallow indeed.

Oj Lina, Lina… You are like this lost sheep without Shepard. There are tones of websites which do not even care for the truth or cannot provide validity of their information. I have seen people pointing out to wiki as a source of truth! How do you know which is true and which is not? Choosing the one that defends your theories do not make your theory true. It simply keeps you where you are. I will ask a question - what did your ‘goddess’ do for you? Since God is the one that “is” - The Uncreated One, and in your belief system you have two, so in your case someone had to be first. The other ones cannot have anything with “God” bur rather making themselves “gods” (as satan claims to be.) Anyway, the whole thing becomes emotional battle having nothing to do with Truth. Has the same value as “you are not my parents, you adopted me”, and leaving them (can you ever prove that your are a child of your parents? your birth certificate could be forged. You only look similar.) Faith and belief differ. Satan believes in Christ. He can even cite the Bible. And what does it imply? Nothing. Nada. You have two choices to make. Choose either Christ and have life, or reject Him and do not have life. I cannot make it for you. I cannot convert you, convict you, or make you love. I cannot make you believe in anything. The choice is yours and only yours. Choose wisely using reason given to us by God, not emotions. Something that feels good does not have to be good, and something that feels bad does not have to be wrong. God Bless you.

Casting Crowns, There is a difference between being a child dependent on your parents and being a God-Man who CHOSE to be dependent on his parents. He certainly could have taken Himself to Egypt. He could have flown right there. He could have been born to King Herod and lived in a palace. Because He was God, everything that happened to Him—even His own death—was by His choice. Remember in the Garden of Gethsemene when the soldiers came to get Him, He spoke and they all fell down—probably slain in the Spirit—He could have walked away right there and then, but he didn’t. Think how many times the Scripture says the people wanted to kill Him, but He just slipped through the crowd and disappeared. Why? It wasn’t His time yet. The Scripture talks about Him being Obedient, Obedient unto death. That means He could have not been killed, he could have flown to Egypt, he could have been born to a rich and secure family, but He chose not to do those things. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

It seems to me that Lina had every rights to come to this site and pass comment since the title was a bit demeaning to the New Age movement and such. Won’t you defend your religion if it was under attack? That is what Lina did and very graciously. Also, she was caring enough to answer my quiery about the possibility that I had encountered a demonic spirit, and gave me her opinion frankly and without judgment of my person. Thank you Lina. I have decided to seek the help of an official psychologist, your response was an eye opener. We recognize a tree by its fruits… it applies also to people.

@Susan Fox:  So as an infant in the incarnate, Jesus (who yielded certain characteristics of His divine nature to become human flesh) could have “flown” like a bird to Egypt?  The world is your oyster, Susan.  Go for it.

Mina, first, the article is about New Age Occult and Satanism. It is my understanding that Lina is pagan and that not all pagans are occultists or satanists. This article was not ‘attacking’ paganism, it was discussing the very real fact that there are some who worship Satan and try to get the Eucharist for use in their ceremonies.

Secondly, as I pointed out in my last post, Lina did not come here asking innocent and respectful questions. In her very first post on this article she insulted/attacked our faith. 

Your own posts have shown a bias in favor of Lina, so whatever. For all we know, you are the same person.

Susan Fox - Jesus could not have done just anything He wanted to do.  Not that he did not have the power to do so.  But He came to do His Father’s will.  Old Testament prophecy, from the beginning of time had to be fulfilled, in its fullness.

That is how we are all to RECOGNIZE Jesus, as the promised Messiah.  His life, death and resurrection, fulfilled over 300 Old Testament prophecies, to the letter.  Can you not see that?

Jesus is coming again, and as the triumphant Son of God.  We are called upon to see Him as He is, not as the god of our own making.

The more I consider how saints in the Middle Ages wrote about Jesus, a child, a baby, it makes me think of the parable about the unjust steward that resorted to unjust and stealthful means, to secure himself a new job, when he was fired from his old one.

Someone correct me, if I’m wrong, but I think Jesus complimented him for his shrewd methods, and said the children of God should be as crafty and thoughtful about their faith, closing with something like, “You cannot serve God and the world.”

So we choose one or the other: we see God AS HE IS, or we choose to accept what the world tells us He is - namely: anything of our own making.
Like a bird that could have flown Himself to Egypt.  Sigh.

@Terah James:  Thank you for being polite and kind.  That is very gracious of you and I greatly appreciate that in not only a human being, but a faith-follower.  You show yourself to be a true follower of Christ with your graciousness to someone that does not believe as you do.

@Joanp62:  I am not sure who said it here, I believe it was you, that the church is infallible and always right.  But now your are saying that the church isn’t always right.  Just for truth’s sake, I have never said that Paganism was full of goodness and unicorns.  I did try to ask respectful questions, but I was attacked with disdain.  As for my leaving the church, I left it for many reasons, one of which was the people who were vicious to me at several parishes and on several levels for things that were not in my control (my parents’ divorce, losing my virginity to being raped, and my brother’s suicide, for examples).  I also left because even the hierarchy was not living in God’s word.  “Thou shall have no other gods”, yet they worship (yes, worship) saints, Mary, and a host of others.  They take the word of their God with a grain of salt, using it for their own purposes.  So yes, there were many reasons I left the church.  Getting away from self-serving, holier-than-thou people was a bonus.

@Greg:  What has my Goddess done for me?  Freed my mind and soul to love instead of hate.  What has my God done for me?  Supported me as the rock He is.  What did the church teach me?  Hatred of anyone not of my faith.  That my faith was the only faith and I should not mingle with those not of my faith.  I do not need to follow your Christ to live, as I live in my own faith.  My choice was made with more prayer than any other decision I have ever made. 

@Mina:  I am happy you have found faith you can believe in, no matter the denomination.  Keep strong in that faith.  And good luck with your psychologist.  I was glad to be of service.

@ Joanp62 (again) I can assure you, I do not know Mina, but she has shown me kindness that a true Christian would show.  This article was attacking Paganism and was offensive.  From the article above:  ““There is a greater need for exorcism because there is a greater frequency of the practices of the occult, New Age and Satanism, both on the part of Catholics and other people alike,” he said. Conference speakers explained that people begin experimenting with other traditions and rituals, often simply out of curiosity. They don’t realize that they are, at the same time, losing their spiritual center and turning away from God.”  I have not turned away from God.  I have turned towards him, with a better understanding of what he wants from my life.  To insult me by saying my faith turns me away from God is wretched and attacking Paganism.  It also shows a complete lack of understanding for what we do believe in.  Furthermore, Satanists do not believe in Satan.  I don’t befriend them, but I’ve studied the basics to know what I’m dealing with.  They worship themselves.  Even they don’t believe in Satan.  The fact that you believe otherwise without doing any research for yourself amazes me and proves how blindly you follow anyone in vestments. 

To Joanp62,
No, in all honesty, I am not the same person as Lina. I have no bias in favor of Lina, but I admit to admire the fact that she bravely answered my comment which, by the way, was more positive toward Catholicism…. However I am searching for truth based in reality and I welcome every point of view. So tell me: do you believe demons can torment people physically or did I suffered a brief psychotic episode during which I experienced some hallucinations? Thank you kindly for your answer.

IN general demons often hide to look like they are not the cause if in fact they are. Although, sometimes in their pride they may be more open in their attacks.  As for medical symptoms I believe any good exorcist or deliverance minister would rule out the physical and psychological causes first and, if these are not clear than it could be demonic but it is best to rule out other things first and generally pray for protection from God, Mary, the angels, etc. As for as people being tormented by demons read the lives of Padre Pio and St John Vianney and the evidence of demonic physical torment is clear in their cases. Also St Paul refers to a “thorn in the flesh” 2 Cor Ch 12 vs 7-9 which God told him in prayer was a demon to attack him, which God permitted to keep him humble.

Lina, go back and reread my comments. I have stressed over and over that the Church will not err when “teaching on matters of faith and morals”. I have NEVER said nor implied that the people in the Church are ALWAYS right.  People within the Church are far from perfect, but their actions do not necessarily reflect Church teaching.

Do you remember your first post on this thread? Did you read what you wrote that I quoted in your post? You can’t deny that you made insulting and antagonistic statements.

Also, the quote from the article that you posted above just confirms what I said. How is this article insulting paganism? Or do you practice Satanism? Are all pagans Satan worshippers? I didn’t think they were. If satanists don’t worship Satan, then why are they called that? Are all pagans involved with the occult? Again, I did not know they were. But if that is the case, then I guess this article was about you, so you would take it personally.

I never said your beliefs have turned you away from God. If you wonder about that, then perhaps they have.

I heard a quote today from Aristotle. It said, “To speak the Truth, you must be willing to be accused of arrogance”. My experience on here has shown me how true that is.

Lina, I do think you are in error to have left the Church and are involved with paganism. But you chose to post on this site, and since you feel the need to tell us how ‘wrong’ you think we are, then I certainly have the right to tell you the Truth. I just don’t believe in going on the websites of other religions and insult them and tell them they are wrong, as you have done. Now you are upset and feel offended. Well, you chose to come on here and to offend us first. Again, go back to your fist post if you can’t remember.

Mina, I am not qualified to give you a diagnosis of what happened to you, and neither is Lina. I do believe that there are demons and evil spirits, although I have not had any experience with it. But based on the testimonies of others, I do believe that if people dabble in the occult, as you say you have, it could possibly open a door to demonic oppression and influence. I think that is more common than actual possession. But I cannot say what happened to you, I do not know you and you gave little information about what you experienced. It is quite possible that you suffered a psychotic episodes and hallucinations due to demonic oppression or influence. I hope you are healed of whatever it was now.

Terah, you just admitted the point I was trying to get across: “Jesus could not have done just anything He wanted to do.  Not that he did not have the power to do so.  But He came to do His Father’s will.” He had the power to do anything, but HE CHOSE to do His Father’s will. He chose not to fly to Egypt, instead He sent a dream to His Foster Father and had him drag Him to Egypt. The result was the same, he wasn’t killed as a child. But a human child in the same situation could not send a dream to their parents and warn them what was about to come along. They would be completely helpless and dependent as you describe in your version of Jesus.

Mina, there is no doubt that God occasionally allows demons to torment people physically. They are angels they can manipulate matter.  But they are only allowed to do so with God’s permission. God has the power, Satan does not. Why would God allow that? Always for the salvation of souls and the glory of God. There is a movie called “Emily Rose.” It is based on a true case of possession, but I’m sure there’s some Hollywood in the movie version. But it appears that the girl on whom the movie is based, actually died indirectly because of Satan’s torments in her life. But apparently she offered up all her sufferings in connection with this attack in union with the sufferings of Jesus Christ, and therefore her torments by the evil one were redemptive (co-redemptive as Angelo would tell us) The salvation coming from Jesus Christ, but this chosen soul, Emily Rose in the movie, was allowed to share in Christ’s sufferings in a unique way for the benefit of all of us. This is part of the Doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

We can’t tell you whether your sufferings were mental illness or a demon. Having had close family with mental problems, I found that they also suffered grievously from Satan’s attacks. You would think they had enough on their plate without that also. One of the things I found useful in the Emily Rose story was the fact that while she was overtly attacked by Satan in her dormitory room, she was able to remain unpossessed, and fight Satan. But once the psychiatrists put her on mind altering drugs, she was possessed, she had no defense against him. That does not mean one should not go to a psychiatrist. But I would go to an exorcist first and ask his opinion. Every Catholic Diocese in the United States has an official exorcist attached to it. You call the Chancery and they will help you get an appointment. However, one thing about the life of “Emily Rose,” while possessed, she did not sin. Instead she was like a victim soul, who suffered for others voluntarily. Like Jesus, she gave her life for her friends. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Thank you all, for your opinions (Including Lina) there is food for thought in all of this.
God bless,
Mina

Mina - when anyone gives you an opinion, “test the spirits” against an authorized Bible: God’s word.  That is what the Bereans did with Paul, and Paul praised them for it.

Use a Catholic Bible or a non-Catholic Bible, but from a credible source, and you will be on the right page.  The key is not “my truth” or “your truth” or “their truths”, but it is God’s Truth that matters.  The wisdom of God is true north, and it will provide direction towards Eternal Life with Him, and fellowship with the Father, right now.

I asked this question on another blog, but I’ll repeat it here, because there are a few other people (like Joanp62)from whom I’d like to hear.

I would love to read a list of what each of you has to write about this thought:  “This is everything I know about God”.

By it, I mean Who God is, what God is like, how God functions in our lives, and why.  Just a list of everything you know, about God.  You can add to it later.  But off the top, how would you answer this now?

Please: in your own words, no catechism & no cut & paste from “Catholic Answers”, or it will defeat the purpose of my asking what YOU know.

Also, I am not asking about God in relation to the collective Church, or what the Church teaches through apparitions, or other private sources. Just a list of everything YOU know about God. 

Lastly, with respect to those that do not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I am asking solely about the Judeo-Christian God of the Universe, our Creator.  So atheists/pagans, please disregard my question.

I’m just wondering about everything YOU (Catholics/Christians)know about God.  To whomever responds, in advance: I thank you!

I forgot to mention if any of you are writing from the East Coast, where “Sandy” is expected to arrive later today, I’m sure I speak for others when I say our thoughts & prayers are with all of you, our brothers & our sisters, in Christ.

Remember that Jesus walked on water, having control over the troubled sea.
So find your peace, in Him.  Remember His promises & past blessings upon you.  It is written: “Be still, and know that I am God.”  This too… shall pass.

Terah, I have already answered a lot of your questions. Yet, you still have not addressed many of my posts to you nor answered my questions, like “why don’t you read the Catechism? Why do you not agree with ALL of the Catholic Church’s teaching, since you are Catholic?, etc.” If you need to go back to the posts on this comment box and some others on this site to re-read my comments and questions to you, then please do.

Until you respond to my posts to you, I see no reason why I need to answer any more of your questions. Also, I can’t tell from your post if you are being sincere, since you specifically mentioned me. I can easily give you a list, but I sense an agenda behind this request.

“This is everything I know about God”.
Any god we can understand is no god at all. All too many talk about God as if they can possibly know the mind of God, or somehow convey what God would or would not do. According to Aristotle and Aquinas, God is pure ‘act’, and cannot be in potential for anything. Thusly, those who speak of what God wants are off the mark.  The simple response is ‘God knows’...God does not need a plan or is not in any need.
What is even worse are the responders who seem to know what devils want and wish us to think; or any other spirit for that matter. If any poster has spoken with satan let us know…if any poster has spoken with any spirit let us know.

@Joanp62: who writes to Terrah James—[”“why don’t you read the Catechism? Why do you not agree with ALL of the Catholic Church’s teaching, since you are Catholic?”]  Since you agree the Catechism doesn’t contradict God’s Holy word, why do you have a problem with Terrah James using the more trusted and original source document as the basis for faith?  What’s wrong with God’s word that you require something extra?  Is God’s word not trustworthy?

@ Jesuitical Graduate of Boston College -
Thank you for trying to answer what I tried to make a simple question.  But it’s obvious I didn’t make myself clear, so I’ll try again, with these clarifications:

1) My question was not to imply we can understand everything about God, making Him sound like our next door neighbor.

2) My question was not to imply that any of us can PREDICT what God plans to do in human history or how God will act.

3) My question is not about any thing [or anyone, like Satan] that God created.  My question is limited to what we know about God only.

Based on what you wrote above, if I were to summarize what you think, I’d say you (Jesuitical) wrote:
“God is too great to understand.  But God knows everything.  So while I don’t know anything about God, it’s okay with me because God knows all.”  Is that about right?

I really am just trying to “Seek first to understand.”  There is no right or wrong answer, as far as I’m concerned.  It’s just to find out what people think about God.  That’s it.  My “agenda”.

Even a simple paragraph, in one’s own words, is what I’m looking for.  Jesuitical - it’s great if you wanted to try again, too.  In fact, when we get to thinking about it, our list can grow, daily!
 

So for anyone wanting to answer, I’ll try again:  “This is everything I know about God”. 

@ Joanp62—
My answers to your questions to me:
1) You asked me, “...why don’t you read the Catechism?”

Why do you assume I do not read the catechism?  I do read the Catechism.  If you asked in an earlier post why I did NOT read it, it’s likely you got no answer from me, because I do use the catechism as a reference.

I even read Pope Bendedict’s first encyclical on Love, to see how he THINKS.  It was long. Inspiring & well done.  But long. It’s the only encyclical I ever read.

As an aside: I noticed on Catholic blogs, many people, when asked to THINK for themselves, such as with this question I posed here, they often jump to wild conclusions, and attack back with: “You’re a troll”, “You have an agenda” or my all time favorite: “You hate Catholics”.  I don’t know why.  I like to THINK.  I like FACTS. It’s likely I’m not an average Catholic, based on what I observe in NC Reg. blogs.

2) You asked me, “Why do you not agree with ALL of the Catholic Church’s teaching, since you are Catholic?”

Joan - since when did it become a requirement to leave our brains at the door of the church, never asking questions or thinking for ourselves?  To answer your question, the reason I do not agree with ALL of the Catholic Church’s teaching is because it is a bottomless pit of beliefs.

Even “practicing” Catholics on this NC Register site are often all over the page in terms of beliefs, that seems to grow daily!  Another comment I’ve heard about myself and other Catholics that pose heady questions is, “You’re not Catholic ENOUGH.” Whatever that means. “Enough” is subjective, by the way. 

Joan - I originally asked the question above on another blog.  Since I’ve seen your name before on other blogs, I wanted to give you an opportunity to weigh in about “This is everything I know about God.”

I didn’t want to leave you out. But if you’ve never thought of it before, or you don’t know much about God, don’t fret.  As I wrote to Jesuitical, this is an effort on my part to “Seek first to understand.”

No agenda. No conversation is even required. I really just want to understand what fellow Catholics know about God, in a list form, that can even grow with time.  My intention is simple.

Catholics speak, think & write so much about OTHER matters peripheral to the faith (like exorcism), it would be interesting to know what they think about God.  If you’d like to weigh in, Joan, I’m interested in knowing what you think.

For new readers, I’m speaking of the Creator of the Universe, that revealed Himself to us as the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob: the God of Israel, and the tribe of Judah, from whom came King David.

I find the New Testament epistles of 2 Peter & 1 John to be an excellent source of information about God.  Each are short, succint and powerful.

Terah, I suggested in the other line of posts where you posted this question that you start first, tell us the answer to the question from your point of view.  You mentioned elsewhere that it would be very interesting to explore it from 1 John. Go ahead. I see you have something you want to talk about. Talk. God bless you. Susan Fox

Casting Crowns- I trust the Bible and the Catechism. The Catholic Church has sole authority to interpret Scripture, so I trust both. Why don’t you? Obviously we cannot interpret all of scripture ourselves, as is evidenced by the many thousands of Protestant denominations that have differing interpretations of scripture.

Please answer my question. Thank you.

@Joanp62:  New Orleans Archbishop Gregory Aymond (Chairman of the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship) just recently issued a list of the the 10 ways Vatican II shapes the Catholic church today.  In item #6, Archbishop Aymond calls for the Catholic church to adopt a spirit of respect and dialog toward building bridges of understanding and strengthening relationships with Orthodox Christians and Protestants.  It seems to me that your practice of shoving the Catechism down the throat of every non Catholic is hardly in keeping with the teaching of Archbishop Aymond.  The idea that “if only you would read the Catechism—THEN—you will understand and become Roman Catholic” is not convincing.  It would likely be more effective on your part were you to start and establish a baseline of foundational truths concerning Christ with non Catholics where there is common agreement.  You might find true dialog could then take place.  Your approach of the “Catholic way or the highway” is poor evangelization.

@Joanp62:  [“I trust the Bible and the Catechism. The Catholic Church has sole authority to interpret Scripture, so I trust both. Why don’t you?”]  What does the Catechism explain that God’s *direct* word fails to do?  If you believe the Holy Spirit only reveals truth and understanding to a select few men in the Vatican (aka the Magisterium) then everyone should simply close their Bible and stop reading.

Terah, it is not a matter of not thinking for ourselves, or leaving our brains at the door. As I have stated many times, the Catholic Church has been given the authority to protect and promote God’s Truth. The Catholic Church is the only authority to interpret scripture. So, why would I trust anyone else’s or even my own ‘opinions’ or ‘ideas’ about God and Scripture when I have a trusted, authoritative source that was given to us by God Himself? And in this instance, when I say Church, I mean the Teaching Authority as given to the Bishops, the successors of the apostles. (As Jesus told his apostles, “he who hears you hears me.”)

You don’t think I know much about God? How condescending. God revealed Himself to us in scripture through Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, King David, and then by sending His Only Son, Jesus. What you or I ‘think’ about God is not the same as Who God IS. God is Who He is, regardless of what any of us ‘think’ He is.

I know I have never said you are not “Catholic enough”, although if by not agreeing with all that the Church teaches makes you think you are NOT Catholic enough, then that is your opinion.

I don’t feel I need to make a list of what I know about God. If you want to believe that means I don’t know much about Him (rather strange), that’s fine by me. What I do know about God I have received from years of bible study, Church Teaching and prayer.

As for what I said about you not reading the Catechism, I got that from some of your many posts. I can’t find where specifically, but you made a comment to the effect that you did not want answers from the Catechism.

CC “shoving the Catechism down the throat of every NON Catholic…”

Where have I done that?? I only propose the Catechism to my fellow Catholics. Are you not Catholic, Casting Crowns? We seem to have had this question before. And you seem to equivocate back and forth between Catholicism and Protestantism. If you are NOT Catholic, Casting, then my mistake. I would not tell you to read the Catechism if you were not Catholic. I also have not said, nor do I agree with what you posted here:

“The idea that “if only you would read the Catechism—THEN—you will understand and become Roman Catholic” is not convincing.”

Nor this:

” “Catholic way or the highway” is poor evangelization.”

That is NOT my idea of evangelization. In posting to fellow Catholics I am critical of them if they do not believe all that the Church teaches. I certainly do not expect that of Non-Catholics.

I see you haven’t stopped twisting words and meanings.

@Joanp62:  How are you following the teaching of Archbishop Aymond of New Orleans?  Is he not among your “teaching authority?”  This is the “Year of Faith” and new Evangelism.  How are you reaching out to Christians who are not Catholic?

@Joanp62:  [“In posting to fellow Catholics I am critical of them if they do not believe all that the Church teaches.”]  What is the status of Catholics who fail to accept “all” the Church teaches?  Many Catholics do not accept some teachings regarding purgatory, or indulgences, or fasting during Lent, or apparitions, or Fatima claims by Sr. Lucia, or Medjugorje, and others including even transubstantiation.  They may accept some aspects but not the “all the Church teaches” (your statement).
Are they not really Catholic or what exactly are they?  Please do not use the worn out phrase “They have not been fully catechized.”  Most were either educated in Catholic grammar school or attended Cathechism classes while going to public school in order to receive the sacraments of Communion, Reconcliation and Confirmation.  After the age of 12 or 14 there was no more education in “all the Church teaches.”  Polling shows upward of 70% of Catholic married couples practice some form of contraception.  Do they know this is against “all the Church teaches?”  When is the last time your parish priest presented on-going sessions concerning “all the Church teaches?”  What percentage of your parish do you think would likely turn out some evening if your parish priest was to speak on “all the Church teaches?”

CC- first of all, you have accused me of doing things that I haven’t done, like “shove the Catechism down Protestants throats.” So I have not gone against the Teaching of Vatican II. All the Bishops have authority, however, there are some individual Bishops who go against the very Church that they are Shepherds for. Therefore, and I’m not saying anything about the Bishop of New Orleans, just that there are some individual bishops who do not uphold Church Teaching. The Magesterium is the Teaching Authority of the Church in the Vatican. That is the visible head of the Church here on earth.

Too many Catholics do not follow or even know what the Church teaches. Many are poorly catechized and it’s too bad you find that to be a worn out phrase. It is true. Many expect to get all of their teaching from a homily at Mass. While our priests have been negligent about teaching the faith, it is our own responsibility to learn it. CC- we have been over this before.

Regarding your statement: ” Many Catholics do not accept some teachings regarding purgatory, or indulgences, or fasting during Lent, or apparitions, or Fatima claims by Sr. Lucia, or Medjugorje, and others including even transubstantiation.  They may accept some aspects but not the “all the Church teaches” (your statement).”  Well, gee Casting. Are you Catholic or not?? If so, you should know which teachings are binding, that must be held by all Catholics. Purgatory and Transubstantiation are most definitely things that ALL Catholics should believe, as well as the Divinity of Christ, for example. Apparitions that have been approved (Medjugorje has NOT been approved yet) are NOT teachings of the Church. They are just matters of private revelation that may be believed by the faithful, but do not have to be. Why? Because they are NOT Church teaching, they are PRIVATE revelation.

Catholics who do not agree with, or dissent from those teachings that we need to accept, are not faithful Catholics and may not be in good standing with the Church.

Casting Crowns, in spite of the way you post, which tells me you are Protestant, you have claimed to be Catholic. If you are Catholic, you are responsible for knowing these things. Your ignorance tells me that you have not bothered to be informed about Church teaching, or you are Protestant, in which case, this does not really apply to you, so what is your problem with it?

@Susan Fox – I’ve given this a lot of thought lately & even prayed to understand the Holy Trinity more.  This is what I’ve gleaned—my own observations, but based on credible sources & from God’s word.  I compiled this list last week, later seeing 2 Peter and 1 John’s letters.  So this was handy!  I may add more to it, as time goes by, as I learn more. My answer to the question, “Tell me everything you know about God?”
 

God’s Nature:
God is completely holy: set apart from everything & everyone else.
God is Spirit
God is Love
God is Life, and Light and Truth.
 

God revealed Himself to us as Three Persons, in One Godhead.  Each Person is co-equal, co-eternal, & co-existent.
 

Our Triune Godhead is omniscient (knows everything) omnipotent (all powerful, with control over nature & everything He created) & omnipresent (everywhere at all times).  Our God is immutable (He never changes, the same yesterday, today, and forever).
 

Our God’s personality is compassionate & patient, long-suffering & slow to anger, generous & gracious, gentle & forgiving, righteous & just.  God actively reaches out to people, revealing Himself to us, to save us from ourselves.  God has found creative ways to reach out to people for over 6,000 years throughout recorded history.  God is relational within Himself.  God wants a relationship with us too, wanting us to know Him as He is.  God wants us to know Him, understand Him, and realize that He is “The Lord” of all.
 

Our God called Himself the Great “I Am”.  He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and King David, a covenant-making God that keeps His promises forever, & for His own Names’ sake.  God remains Faithful to us, even when we are unfaithful, & for His own sake.  God was first the Father of the nation of Israel, to whom He still remains faithful.  But after Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf at Calvary, at the fullness of time, God can be our Father too.  We have access to our Father, knowing this from the documented events that happened during the Crucifixion.  There is salvation by the Blood of Jesus.  By His shed Blood, and by His wounds, we are “healed”: adopted into God’s holy Family, given the gift & the privilege of calling our God, “Abba”, meaning Father, where we are no longer His servants, and alienated from Him, but rather we are His children, His heirs, & close. 

God revealed Himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Each Person is in relationship with each other; and each has a different function and role, in the One Triune Godhead.  Theirs is like any other family structure, where there are different people, with different roles.  Theirs is to be the model for us, to illustrate the principle of family, and of a covenant, such as a marriage covenant.  Jesus is referred to The Groom; the Church (collectively) is referred to as Jesus’ Bride.  Jesus is coming again, for His Bride.  We, the Church, are to be waiting, anticipating His coming for us – be it through our death [“Absent from the body, present with the Lord.”] or through His second coming.  It is documented that at His Ascension, the angel told the apostles Jesus would come again, in the same manner in which He rose into Heaven, at the last days.

The Father is the Most High, who hears and answers prayer, and it is His will that is to be done by everyone.  Even Jesus did the Father’s will, putting aside His own will and being submissive to the Father, when Jesus became Incarnate (the Word of God, made Flesh).  The Father disciplines people, and His love for justice results in people seeing His wrath, when what He instructs people or the nation of Israel to do is not obeyed.  The Father is particular, and specific about what He wants from people.  Everyone is to live life His way, and for His glory.  But the Father takes pity on His people, always providing a way for us, and the nation of Israel, to come back to Him.  Israel was to be an instrument used by God to draw and teach other nations and peoples about God, their Father and their King.  But Israel turned from God at every chance; even today, only a remnant “hear” and “see” that Jesus is the promised Messiah, even though in their own Hebrew Scriptures, Jesus’ life fulfilled over 300 Old Testament prophecies, and the statistics of that happening are astronomical.  But right now is The Church Age, and the “time of the Gentiles” where people of all nations and cultures are hearing God’s word, and coming to Him, through “The Gospel”, otherwise known as the “Good News”.  The Father waits.
 

His Son, Jesus, called the Son of the Most High, is the Redeemer, the Word of God made an incarnate Man, Who promised to dwell with us forever, through the Holy Spirit.  By Jesus, all things were made; through Him all things were made, and for Him, all things were made.  Jesus is our Advocate to the Father, through our prayer.  Jesus is our Brother, the “first-born” of the Family of God.  He said, “Because I live, you will live also”.  We are spiritually alive in Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Holy One of Israel promised since the Creation of the world, because the Holy Spirit entered into our hearts, making us part of God’s Family, giving us a new ‘spiritual DNA’.  So no matter what our physical families are like, or were like, we have a new (and perfectly holy) spiritual Family: God our Father, & Jesus, our Brother.  We are to abide “in Jesus”, living “in Him”, with Jesus being The Vine, and we (the Church), the Branches.  The Father is the Vine Dresser – tending to the branches health, and ensuring growth.
 

The Holy Spirit is called the Counselor and the Comforter.  He is the Author of Life and our Sustainer.  We have intimacy with God because the Holy Spirit quickens our hearts, souls and minds, into new Life in the Spirit, helping us pray, even when words fail us.  He reads our hearts, and through silent groaning and His insight into the emotions of our hearts and souls, when we have no words to communicate with the Father, the Spirit “speaks” with the Father for us.  It can be wordless communication.  The Holy Spirit seals us, and enters into our hearts when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and He leads and guides us into Truth = who is Jesus, and He promised to never to leave us or forsake us, ever.  We can grieve and quench the Holy Spirit.  So we can know the Holy Spirit is indeed a Person, because only a person can grieve.  Upon entering into our hearts, after we accept Jesus as our Lord, the Holy Spirit gives us Gifts, so we can build up the Body of Christ, and lead others to Jesus, and it is the Holy Spirit that brings us into Eternal Life with the Triune Godhead, in Heaven, upon our physical death, because we were “sealed” by Him, a “deposit”, that He carries to completion, throughout our lives.  The Holy Spirit does not forfeit a deposit (like a person buying a home that gives a good faith deposit – it is not forfeited).  Our gifts are to be used to help the Body of Christ grow.  Our gifts are not to be hidden, or kept for us only.  Our gifts are to be shared.

Gifts are such things like: teaching, preaching, mercy, giving of resources, etc. to build up His Body, the Church.
 

Why did God go through all this trouble to reveal Himself?  Everyone is born once, physically.  But we all have sinned.  We have all broken God’s commands.  If we put two babies together and give them one cookie, they fight for it & cry, demanding it be theirs.  So a selfish and sinful is our natural bent.  The wages for sin is physical death.  To make matters worse, we are all born spiritually dead.  None of us look to God.  We all look to the world – which is anti-God.  So unless we are “re-born” spiritually, by hearing the Word of God, and accepting it, we will die twice in our lives: once physically, and if we remain dead spiritually, and die in that state, at the very end of time, we die spiritually too, and officially - meaning it is eternal separation from God, the absence of Light.
 

But the Father made a way for everyone to have access to Him: Jesus’ death on Calvary, by admitting we are sinners, submitting our wills to Jesus [as Jesus submitted His will to His Father] and willingly nailing our sins to His Cross.  By doing so, we are spiritually “reborn”, as Jesus told Nicodemus.  We gradually become transformed into new people, by the renewing of our minds.  We will see “good fruit” as a result of our faith in Jesus (like the Book of James documents: “Faith without works is dead.”)  Since we are still human, we will still sin.  But we have an Advocate with the Father (Jesus) who knows our flaws and failings, and when we confess our sin to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive.  We are called upon to also forgive others, as we have been forgiven.

We live to WANT to please Jesus.  It is impossible to say we have faith, and that Jesus is our Lord, and then live a life of unrepentant sin.  There is no way we can run from God, or hide from God.  Our lives are totally exposed to Him, and He sees us, in total light.  That thought would creep me out, before I came to Christ.  But now I find it comforting.
 

When we are “in Christ”, we begin to see life and people from God’s perspective, from an eternal perspective.  We hide God’s word in our hearts, much like Mary, the Blessed Mother, did when it is written that she “hid those things in her heart”.  Psalm 119 tells us to hide God’s word in our hearts, so we will be equipped to handle temptation, and other tests that may come to us as a result of living life.  We can choose not to sin, by meditating on God’s truths, praying over them, chewing on what they mean, and thinking about how people that went before us handled their problems and concerns. 
 

Trusting God and Obeying God pleases Him.  The Old Testament shows us how God always responded, when people took the time to read His word, and to know Him and to obey Him.  It’s all over the Hebrew Scriptures, even with little King Josiah (King at age 8) and with Hezekiah, and all those leaders that respected God and His holy word.  No one is more knowledgeable of God than King David!  The Psalms tell us God’s mind.
 

It was after Solomon prayed that word came from God saying, “If my people who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray, and seek my Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sins, and I will heal their land.” – I think that’s from 2nd Chronicles.  It’s a promise.

God never changes.  We are called by His Name: Christians.  While not everything in His word is written TO us, all of Scripture is written FOR us, and that’s a good verse to memorize, holding it in our hearts, and pondering it, as Mary pondered what she heard.

@Joanp62:  [“there are some individual bishops who do not uphold Church Teaching.”]  Does this mean you are not under their authority?  If not, as a Catholic can you disobey any Bishop or must you only obey your diocesan Bishop?  Are you under Law or under Grace?  To be a “good” Catholic, you must follow all their laws.  Joan, with the current state of Catholicism, you cannot get by with saying “Catholics have not been properly cathechised.”  That’s a false statement.  Most all Catholics *know* what the church teaches except, of course, for Catholics who only show up at Christmas and Easter Sunday.  By the way, I know ALL the church teaches so you needn’t educate me on church teaching.  Nancy Pelosi and VP Biden *know* what the church teaches.  They just choose to disobey and support same-sex marriage.  I am more concerned with what you think.  By your earlier posts, Catholic rules and regulations seem to be your priority.  This is not what Jesus taught as primacy.  I am not advocating freedom to sin, but moreover, to live in His forgiveness and boundless grace.  I would like that for you, too.  Too many Catholics since childhood are bound by rules and fail to truly experience the fullness of God’s grace.  Keeping all the rules “and all the church teaches” misses the mark of true Christianity.  Take some time to experience His mercy, love, forgiveness of sin and His provision in your life and you will develop a totally new perspective.  You’ll find being “Catholic” is not nearly as critical as being in union with Christ personally.  The same applies whether one is Catholic or Protestant.

Casting Crowns wrote, “Too many Catholics since childhood are bound by rules and fail to truly experience the fullness of God’s grace.”

That, CC, is a profoundly on target statement that I intend to ponder.  The fullness of God’s grace!  AKA: The Good News of the Gospel!  Amen.

Casting Crowns, I can’t tell if you really are ignorant or just plain mean spirited. If you think most Catholics, in America anyway, know their faith, you are naive. I would say that a small majority do not know much at all, and I say that based on my experience with my fellow Catholics, including you. And it IS a problem of lousy catechesis from the ‘60’s on up, and failure on the part of most to even bother to learn the faith they profess.

It is also a known fact that not all bishops are faithful to the Teaching Authority of the Church. If you have some bishops advocating for homosexual marriage and approving contraception, when the Church clearly teaches that these are gravely sinful, how am I suppose to follow every bishop when they do not all agree on the same thing? Please explain how one is to do that. First and foremost, we are to be faithful to the Pope and then our local Bishop. Period.

I am not hung up on “laws”, but knowing what the Catholic Church teaches is extremely important if you are a Catholic. It’s not about being ‘nice’ it’s about Love and Love is not about feelings and false compassion, Love is a willingness to put God and neighbor first and having compassion for the salvation of people’s souls instead of for their ‘feelings’. Loving God includes being faithful and obeying Him and the Church He left for us here on earth, and that means obeying His Church’s teachings.

Apparently you do not know all of Church teaching because you have shown that you do not believe in Sacred Oral Tradition, only the Bible Alone. If you knew about that teaching, then why do you disregard it?

And if you choose to look at Church teaching as a bunch of Rules, that’s to your disadvantage. These “rules” are what really make us free and happy and strengthen our relationship with God and our neighbor. If you think you can achieve union with God while at the same time disregard much of what His Church teaches, you are very mistaken. You disobey God when you disobey His Church. You can’t have it both ways. It’s about obedience, humility and union with God, and without obedience and humility, which I am afraid you seem to lack, there can be no union with God. I pray someday you will be enlightened about this.

Joanp62 is right. Catholics do not have to obey someone else’s bishop. Pope John Paul II said that the Catholic Conference of Bishops has no canonical authority whatsoever, that in fact Catholics only must obey their own bishop. That was good news for me because in the Pacific Northwest in the ‘90s, many parishes moved the tabernacle to the back of the Church, to the side of the Church, to the broom closet! When I protested they said, “We have to be obedient to “Art and Environment.”” Art and Environment was created by the Conference of Catholic Bishops, and it had no authority whatsoever. Yet the laity were told moving the tabernacle to the side of the church was mandatory. We were lied to. I remember a parish in the Phoenix area, the bishop ordered the pastor to put the tabernacle on the side. He obeyed. He had to because it was his bishop, but he built the church so that the tabernacle could be moved to the center on a moment’s notice.  This bishop had a bit of a difficulty and submitted his retirement resignation very early, but it was accepted by the Vatican the same day he submitted it. (That’s fast). And on that day, that the bishop’s resignation was accepted, the pastor who was forced to move the tabernacle to the side, moved it back to the center of the altar. My son and I went to confession the day after this all happened and we genuflected to the side altar like we always did. But the funny part of the story is that I was homeschooling my son, and telling him that the stupid Catholics still genuflected to the cross in front of the Church not realizing all the tabernacles got moved to the side alters. Later when we were in the back of the Church, my son looked through the window and realized the tabernacle was no longer on the side altar, but had been moved to the center of the Church where everyone focused.  That priest had put Jesus back into the heart of the Church. (The pastor could do this because the bishop who issued the order to move it to the side was no longer a bishop.)
This is what God is to me, He is so incredibly funny. What a sense of humor. I walk into the Church and genuflect to the side, while Jesus is now in the front. Meanwhile I am complaining about stupid Catholics who don’t know the difference between a cross and the Real Presence of Jesus, and I myself am one of those stupid Catholics who genuflected to the side altar after Jesus had been moved to His rightful place. So we went back into the Church and genuflected correctly. What a laugh God got at that one.

Terah James, you did an outstanding job of answering your own question, and I am glad you took the time to do it. It was very moving and very Catholic, until we got to the born again part. It seemed to me that you were adopting a Protestant understanding of the Scripture. We are not “born again” by hearing the word of God and accepting it. That is not what the Word says in the Bible.  Having an emotional experience and accepting Christ as you Savior is not being “born again” because in the same passage Jesus makes it clear that he is talking about a Baptism with water and the Spirit, not an emotional or a “hearing” experience.
I quote from my own article about Nicodemus, available on my blog, http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com
“Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” This teacher of Israel had never heard of such a thing. How can a man come out of his mother’s womb a second time?

Jesus makes it clear he is talking about a different kind of birth—one accomplished with water and the spirit. In the Prologue of the Gospel, John makes it clear that all who received Christ were given this Baptism: the power to become children of God, children “who were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (Jn 1:13) Baptism is new birth into a special relationship with God!

Enough quoting. Here is Jesus: “Truly, truly unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” (John 3:5-6) There is nothing emotional about it. There is nothing about hearing the Word of God. Jesus is talking about a Sacrament, the Sacrament of Baptism. Now Terah James if I misunderstood your beautiful article on this matter I apologize. I really felt very touched reading what you wrote. I do believe in Baptism by Desire because that is how the Thief on the Cross got into heaven, also my step-father! So technically unless someone is Baptized as Jesus told us to do, “Go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” they cannot enter heaven. But there are people who enter heaven without formal Baptism in a Christian Church, because they kept the commandments and they desired God as they understood Him. “So this day you will be with me in Paradise,” Jesus told the Good Thief. And the Thief did not receive formal Baptism. But he desired to be with Jesus right up to the point of death.
So yes, I was baptized at the ripe old age of 1 1/2 months. But I came to know and love Jesus through an experience when I was 4 years old. However, that was the grace of my Baptism being actualized so to speak.  The grace was there, but I experienced it in a way that made it seem brand new. What happened when I was four years old? My father died in a car accident. He died in a Catholic hospital in New Orleans. My mother and grandmother took me to the Catholic chapel in the hospital and told me to pray for my Daddy. I was very angry and actually refused to pray for my father until I was 39 years old. Boy, did I ever hold out. But at that moment, the relationship I had with my father, that of a beloved daughter, was transferred to Jesus. Jesus became my Beloved, and I am His as well. I had a total love for Jesus in the Holy Eucharist since that time, and I am 59 years old. Someone asked me to draw a picture of myself and I drew a tree with the Holy Eucharist in the center of the tree trunk. Jesus is so much in my center that I can’t imagine myself any other way. However, the seed of that relationship began when I was baptized on May 31, 1953. And I certainly didn’t understand it to the extent I do now, but I understand it now because of long hours reflecting on my life experiences and what God was teaching me.

So I really appreciated the fact that you understood that God was Three Persons in a Family Relationship. I often meditate on this as well. Unless the Holy Spirit allows me, I cannot even say the name of Jesus. And unless Jesus takes me to the Father, I cannot have the Father.  And the Father sends His Spirit to draw us to Christ. They are caught in a perfect relationship of love and service because each One tries to outdo the other in serving one another. I didn’t always understand this. I remember one time hearing a Catholic priest from India talking about how he defended his sister there. I said,“Oh, I wish I had a father and a brother!” (My father is dead and I never had a sibling). So Father xxxx hears me, and he says, “This poor girl doesn’t know who she it.”  Just like you said, Jesus is my brother and God is my Father. But I understood all that when I was 39. And I was Catholic my whole life. So thank God you have this understanding already. God bless you. Susan Fox

To obey all of Church’s teachings and to live fruitfully in Jesus God ‘s forgiveness and boundless grace are not mutually exclusive.
Peace
Mina

@Susan Fox:  [“stupid Catholics who don’t know the difference between a cross and the Real Presence of Jesus, and I myself am one of those stupid Catholics who genuflected to the side altar after Jesus had been moved to His rightful place. So we went back into the Church and genuflected correctly. What a laugh God got at that one.”]  Thank you for you extensive commentary, Susan, and I am sure the Lord did get a laugh out this.  No doubt Joanp62 hasn’t seen what you see since she is centered upon “rules” rather than intent.  Your genuflection regardless of which altar side was immaterial due to your intent of respect and honor to the Lord.  We must pray that one day Joanp62 will come to your understanding.  Your other comment regarding “stupid” Catholics is relective in renegade Bishops doing their own “thing” and the people follow and do whatever they are told.  They are not discerning what they are told as to the legitimacy.  Such outlaw Bishops then are acting as their own Pope, their own authority,—which is exactly what Catholics always accuse Protestants of doing.  Such hypocrisy indeed.  No wonder so many Catholics are “all over the map” regarding matters of faith.  Joanp62 sees this as the fault of pew Catholics failing to educate themselves in the Catechism while the real problem stems down from the top.  “Rules and regulations” like where you genuflect are not nearly as important as what you hold in your heart.  This does not mean you have license to sin and violate the commandments, but if Jesus is the priority of your heart, the honor and respect you hold for Him will supersede any mistaken violation of church protocol.  This is what Joanp62 doesn’t get.

Casting, as Mina said above, obeying the Church’s teachings and living in Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. And you know damn well that I am not hung up on ‘rules’.

You might want to consider going to confession for your post insulting and mocking me. Your ignorance, rudeness and now hatred of me is downright sinful.
You also might want to ask the Lord to open your own eyes and to reveal your errors to you. I’ve done it, it works.

Dear Casting Crowns, We are much in agreement on the issue of bishops. You’re right those who do not teach with the mind of the Church act as their own pope. However, I understand that if a bishop speaks and he repeats what the Catholic Church has received from the apostles, he is teaching infallibly. But if he gives his own opinion as to what he thinks the Church should teach, but doesn’t, then he is definitely fallible, and in fact I would say foolish.  I do sit and reflect whether an order is binding before I obey. I know that one time a priest in confession complained about me reading True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. I reflected that he hadn’t said I couldn’t. So I ignored his complaint. And thank you yes, I wasn’t trying to obey a genuflect rule, I was trying to adore my Lord and my God. And there was no sin except in my complaining about other Catholics, when I had the same problem. God bless you. Susan Fox

Susan Fox - regarding the “born again” statement I made: first, it’s not an emotional experience, or one in which some non-Catholic churches deem an “altar call”, where you accept Jesus in your heart, on a certain day or time.  The born-again I describe is summed up best by Paul’s letter to the Romans.

I can’t remember which chapters describe it, but it reminds me of when the Ethiopian eunach was sitting in his chariot, and Phillip explained what the eunach was reading (from Isaiah), and the eunach understood, and asked to be baptized!  Right then and there!  Further, when Phillip was whisked away - just vanishing, like poof!! - the eunach went back to his native land and he spread the Good News of the Gospel to them too.  Those people were all “born again”, and they all displayed the fruit of the Holy Spirit, to prove it.

I too, believe in “Baptism by desire”, and the thief on the cross at Calvary is a good example of that.  It’s the condition of our hearts that matters to our Lord, as Casting Crowns pointed out.  The thief recognized Jesus as being the Son of God, and he saw his own sinful condition, and he turned to Jesus (repentance, turning from sin, to God) to be saved.  Whereas the other thief never saw the need for God, or to be saved for the afterlife, instead, he was just looking for a quick way off the cross, that day. The “Good Thief”, the ‘saved’ thief, saw the big picture.

I’m sorry to hear of your father having died when you were at such a young age, and I’m glad that you were able to identify with the Family of God, seeing Father and Brother, and Counselor, as the ideal that they are.
That does take time.  We are all so very human, and we all have the same needs, wanting to reach out to people “with flesh!” that will be there for us.

I often wonder what it must have been like for Joseph, so abandoned and alone in Egypt, misunderstood and lied about, and not appreciated for the gifts he had, and for David, when Saul was chasing him for no reason, and
for Daniel, ripped from his homeland, and forced to reject paganism, from his youth till his old age, all the prophets, that were instructed by God to do what we’d think was really weird things, that set them even FURTHER apart from their peers, and yet, the Father demanded they trust and obey Him.  Hmmm.  He wants that from us too.

Our Father…...... When we think about the Father part, then we are almost compelled to think about the “our” part, in that there is only One God, One Faith, One Body, and Jesus is the head.  So everyone that does accept Jesus as Lord (no matter how they did that - your journey beginning with baptism as an infant, and perhaps the influence of your mother, and others God put in your life) IS in the Body of Christ, and God is our Father, Jesus, our Brother.

It’s the fruit.  We must discern from the Fruit.  I once read that Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini were all baptised.  From the fruit of their lives, it did not take.  Just like many people that walk up during an altar call, at a non-Catholic church, we must look at the fruit of their lives.  If it’s not there, it’s likely they are not “abiding” in Christ, and not part of the Branches that make up His Church.

I think that pondering matters of Christ, and wanting to please Him, shows good faith, and it must honor God.  If we are concerned about pleasing Him, even if we step on people’s toes, or sometimes go left of center, it’s our hearts.  The Holy Spirit draws us back, and always to Jesus, and to each other too, His Body.

@Joanp62 who writes:  [“And you know damn well that I am not hung up on ‘rules’. You might want to consider going to confession for your post insulting and mocking me. Your ignorance, rudeness and now hatred of me is downright sinful.”]  Joan, honey, you protest too much.  And such colorful and charitable language for a “Catholic” woman not centered on “rules.”  Face it.  You just do not like Catholics who disagree with you.  Instead of emulating someone like Susan Fox, all you can do is throw a tantrum while at the same time complain people “hate” you, and “hate” the church.  Dominus vobiscum, Joanie.

Casting Crowns wrote “all you can do is throw a tantrum while at the same time complain people “hate” you, and “hate” the church.  Dominus vobiscum, Joanie.”

Please tell me where I wrote about ‘hate’, Casting. Also, why don’t you try addressing my comments instead of insulting me, AGAIN. I’m not one of those who think the words ‘damn’ and ‘hell’ are vulgar, while at the same time have no problems with being uncharitable and hateful towards others. It is you who has hate, Casting, which is why you are so quick to imagine ‘hate’ in other people.

As for what you call ‘Rules’, Jesus himself said “If you love me you will keep my commandments.” Not just the 10, but those Sacred Teachings given to us by the Holy Spirit through His Church, those same teachings that you so wantonly disregard, while upholding heretical Protestant doctrine. For your own spiritual well being, be careful, Casting. Don’t be so smug and sure that you have all the answers and the Church does not.

Casting, you also wish that I would be like Susan Fox. Then why don’t you listen to her? While she has a different approach than I, she has agreed with my points. For instance: While you claim that we must be obedient to ALL the Bishops, I correctly stated that we need to be obedient to the Pope and our local Bishop. Susan posted that I was correct. You wrongly assume that following ALL Church teachings is exclusive of a relationship with God. Others have countered that claim, yet you will not concede. You wrongly assume that to follow the Church’s teachings means you must believe in ALL apparitions whether approved or not. I explained that was not so and what the teachings were on apparitions. Susan and others concurred with my post. You do not believe in Sacred Tradition. Susan and others have, as have I, tried to explain to you what Sacred Tradition is and why you as a Catholic must believe that. But once again you stubbornly and pridefully hold on to your erroneous beliefs. As a fellow Catholic, I find it very disturbing, and also am concerned that these false ideas and teachings are spread to those with weak faith.

I wonder if I’ll get a straight answer from you,or if you will just respond with more insults.

If this is a duplicate, I apologize.

If I may, below is a quote from Mark Shea to Casting Crowns on an article Mr. Shea posted here in the NC Register:

“Instead of making ignorant pronouncements that simply regurgitate Evangelical boilerplate, attempt the daring project of thinking you might be wrong and that the Catholic Church has, in fact, given a lot of thought to this.”

Casting Crowns, when will you decide in all humility to come down from you high horse and admit that perhaps, the Catholic Church is founded by Our Lord Jesus, and that the Teaching Authority of this Church is guided by the Holy Spirit when teaching on matters of faith and morals? Numerous Catholics on here tirelessly try to steer you to Truth, but you refuse to see it. I mean, you claiming to be Catholic and all.

@Joanp62:  So now you have to copy & paste comments by others?  You just are unable to simply accept anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking without getting a bee in your bonnet.

...thus proving her point.

Good Lord, CC. It’s NOT MY WAY of thinking, it is the Teaching of the Catholic Church! My point, obviously, in quoting Mark Shea, is to emphasize that it is anything but MY opinion or way of thinking and that YOU are on the wrong side of faith. Stubbornness or blindness is not a virtue Casting Crowns.

@Joanp62 Maybe now would be the time to gracefully bow out of this conversation. Nothing good is going to come out of continued dialogue. You’ve done well in presenting a solid and orthodox position, so don’t think you’ve failed. God bless :)

Scaevola, I feel that way each time, but then I end up responding anyway. Thank you for your support. God bless!

Wait a minute!  Before picking up your collective marbles & going home in a snit, how about a few more people answering the question I posed: “Tell me everything you know about God.”

When Susan Fox asked me to answer my own question first, in good faith, I did.  But after Susan mostly commented on what I wrote, the conversation fizzled.  I’m still waiting to hear from other Catholics.  Who will go first?

It could be a sentence (like Mina’s) or a paragraph or more, like what I wrote.  There is no wrong answer - as it’s everything WE KNOW about God.  Before we can love God, we must KNOW Him.  It would honor God, for us to have this conversation/sharing what we know about Him.

Terah “Before picking up your collective marbles & going home in a snit”

You just don’t get it do you? Just never mind.

And being able to make a list of who/what God is does not mean that you KNOW Him or have Him in your heart as evidenced by your posts.

@Joanp62:  For someone who said it was your time to “gracefully bow out of the conversation” you certainly cannot keep to your commitment.  Now you are into judging what is in the heart of Terrah James.  What’s next, you will begin judging her salvation as well?

Casting Crowns, um, no I didn’t, and you claim to be quoting me when I did not say those words or anything to that effect. Please STOP putting words into my mouth.  Really, you and Terah are angry, proud, obstinate and smug. Not very becoming for Christians. I and others on here have quite politely tried to steer you in the right direction and you refuse to even consider that you have gone off track. I actually feel bad for you and hope you will see the light soon.

Frankly Joan, no, I do not get what you are saying.  There are 355 comments from lots of other people on this blog.  What I suggested did NOT only apply to you.  As I mentioned earlier here, I originally tossed out the question on another blog, and thought you may want to weigh in too.  It was just a courtesy to you, if you were interested, not a challenge or a test.

Though I’d be grateful if you did share your thoughts about God, I think everyone could get through the day and the rest of our lives, if you kept what you know to yourself.

Joan, I must ask why you must continually guess about the intentions of others, consistently choosing to surmise they are BAD?  I don’t do that. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  In no way would I ever conclude someone did not know God, if he/she simply chose not to write what they think in a combox.

But if I were guessing, as you are so fond of doing, I’d guess there is a number of other (honorable) reasons for someone not sharing deep and personal thoughts on a blog, some as simple as not everyone likes to write lengthy posts.  It doesn’t mean they don’t have anything to say.

If we were at a table, and everyone was having coffee & pastries, sharing their thoughts verbally, the same people may be brimming with excellent thoughts about God and what they know about Him—even you.  Only you would know that.  I don’t guess.

Do allow me to remind everyone that on a different blog, I asked the same question, and a couple people have already responded on that blog, and the conversation was quite pleasant and helpful, unlike what my simple question drew from you on this blog.

If anyone else would like to pick up the conversation, and share what they think in answering my question, I’m anxious to read what you write.
If not, it’s been fun sharing with everyone, and remember: salvation comes from being under the Blood of Jesus, the Christ, through belief and trust in Him as propitiation for our own sins, giving us access to the Father, and causing us to be sealed in the Holy Spirit, placing us IN the Body of Christ.

Terah, what you don’t get is not what I am just saying, but what several others on here have said as well. You have been sarcastic and smug, and it has been pointed out to you. Your response is that is the way you talk. Well, then I would suggest that you seriously consider how you sound in your posts. You also claim that you do not try to guess others’ intentions, yet you and another poster do exactly that.

You go on and on about God and your faith, yet you have stated many false things about the Church and have ridiculed and dismissed Church teaching that is to be held by all the faithful. Again, others have pointed this out, but you continue to stubbornly and proudly hold on to what YOU think is true, and what YOU think the Catholic Church should and should not do, instead of humbly submitting to Jesus and His Church. Instead you hold onto heretical Protestant doctrine.

Terah, we are indeed saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but we will be judged on LOVE. Your final paragraph comes across rather smug, I don’t need to be told by you what Salvation is.

You seem to be very good at spouting off high sounding platitudes about God, Jesus, salvation, etc., but being able to list what you believe and what/who God is does not necessarily mean that you KNOW Him, it only shows that you know ABOUT Him. What matters is that we have a deeper, and deeper relationship with Him as we grow in faith and that we LOVE.

I do not feel that I need to tell you what I believe about God, because it is all there in scripture and Church teaching. I believe in the God Who IS, and what He revealed to us about Himself. I do not have my OWN ideas about God, because that is irrelevant. God IS Who He IS, not what I want or think Him to be. So, I do not THINK for myself when it comes to who or what God is, HE has already told us WHO He is. And last I checked, “Blessed are they who think for themselves” is not one of the Beatitudes.

@Joanp62:  As as wife—(and as St. Paul teaches you),  do you submit “graciously” to your husband’s authority over you in all matters?

As I wrote in my previous post: “If anyone else would like to pick up the conversation, and share what they think in answering my question, I’m anxious to read what you write.”   

By “anyone else”, I mean someone other than Joan, who has made it evident that she opts not to contribute further to the question, and that’s fine.

By “fine”, I do not say it with an attitude of superiority. I simply mean: no problemo. It’s really fine if Joan does not weigh in anymore.

Casting asked: “@Joanp62:  As as wife—(and as St. Paul teaches you),  do you submit “graciously” to your husband’s authority over you in all matters?”

I find this question to be rather invasive (of my privacy), and what is your point?

I’ve been watching this blog post for quite a while now.  It is quite evident that several people, whom I will not call out, have been quite judgmental in their analysis of others’ calling of faith.  It’s sad, really.  Are we not one in Christ?  Are we truly serving as he asked, judging others’ intents and words, and not listening with an open heart?  Some of you who proclaim to know Jesus so well, yet show none of that knowledge.  Even Christ welcomed all to his table and listened, as evidenced in the Bible.  Some of you have dismissed what a former sister and now Pagan had to say, not trying to pull her back to her roots, but pushing her further away, as she said she had been in the past by Catholics in her parish.  To another who had returned to the faith, you called her names and dismissed her as well.  Now you fight over who has the RIGHT brand of Catholic faith, like two men at a rooster fight.  It’s truly sad that we fight like children and don’t listen to the real Word.

As for Terah, I would gladly and honorably answer your question.  What do I know about God?  Know is a pretty strong word.  I think no one KNOWS anything about God.  God is a mystery that is beyond our comprehension.  I have faith in God.  He guides my life every day.  But it would be presumptuous to say I KNOW anything about Him.  I think if you claim to know anything about God, you are commiting one of the Deadly Sins, as many here seem to be: Pride.  I am humble before God.  I am His child, unwise to His mysteries, but ever faithful that He exists, guides me, and will cherish my presence in Heaven when the time comes.  I hope that answers your question.

To Kali -Thank you so much, for answering my question.  I have a follow-up thought to ponder, a thought for you and also for those others that resonated with what you wrote, namely that we are just to trust Him, and not really know anything about God, because He is a mystery:

“What is the first name of any one person you do NOT know personally, but you do know OF him or her, and yet you LOVE that person so much today, you would be willing to give up your life for them?”

I ask because a Roman Catholic Catechism says we are to “know, love & serve God”—here’s a link I found helpful:  http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Cafferata.htm

Even if the catechism didn’t instruct us of this, God’s word tells us we are to LOVE God.  In order to love someone, we must KNOW them.

God’s word tells us we are to die to ourselves and to live for Christ.
So would we be willing to die for someone we do not really know, or die for someone we do not really love?  A real world scenario, here.  I’m not speaking in a figurative sense.

I don’t mean to know about God, and to accept Jesus as God.  Satan knows about God and Satan accepts Jesus as God.  Satan just does not follow and obey God.  That’s the sin of Pride -

What I’m talking about is to LOVE Jesus and to DENY ourselves in order to obey Him.

That, in fact, is why I did not find Casting Crown’s question to Joanp62 about submission to be in any way inappropriate.  Someone that knew God the Father and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would find Casting’s question most appropriate, and in fact, what CC asked is a gauge for how much a person really knows about God, and if a person is obedient TO God.

While it is impossible to know EVERYTHING about God, and I don’t claim to (though I wish I knew even more!) we are called to seek after Him, to know how God works, so we can recognize His voice and obey Him, when we are called to serve Him, in this life.

Just like when Samuel was called by God, and Eli told him to say, “Speak, Lord, your servant is listening.”  It’s not pride to seek to know more about God.  It is humility, most especially when we seek to know God, so we can OBEY Him and please Him, by doing so.

It is written, “Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness, and all else will be given to you.”

First, is first.  We are all called to put God first, not second or third, but first, and evidence of God being placed first is seen through our obedience.

God revealed Himself to us repeatedly, in the Old Testament and in the New.  We just need to seek His face, and learn more and more about Him. Learning about God never ends.  It’s like eating - we don’t eat once in our lives and then stop.  We eat to live.  “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” = God’s word, the Bible.

“in fact, is why I did not find Casting Crown’s question to Joanp62 about submission to be in any way inappropriate.  Someone that knew God the Father and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would find Casting’s question most appropriate, and in fact, what CC asked is a gauge for how much a person really knows about God, and if a person is obedient TO God.”

Good grief, Terah. CC’s question to me was about my obedience to my husband. How dare you ASSUME and PRESUME to claim that since I found CC’s question inappropriate that I do not know God?! Leave me out of your posts to other people. If you have a question or issue with me, then kindly address a post to me. You’re passive/aggressiveness does not fool me and probably no one else. You need to come to your senses.

@Kali Your put downs could stand either more subtlety or more audacity. Don’t go half-way.
That is:
Let’s all stop hating on Joanp62. She doesn’t deserve it. Reading the conversation I can feel her exasperation. It’s not cool, guys (girls? whatever?). We would all benefit from simply cutting this combox conversation off and stepping away for a while. It’s so easy and tempting to read motivations into people’s words, a sin for which I’m guilty too. (Probably even here in this comment.) However, in this conversation it seems like it’s crossed a line.

@Terah James You mean well. I don’t doubt your sincerity. However, this combox is likely not the best place for what you want to do. I can’t see the atmosphere here improving to a degree that would allow for such discussion. The assumption of trust and openness in this discussion has been lost. And we’re not going to get it back again by further dialogue. (The reason for which I gave above.)

Though, because it would be rude to ignore your question, here’s a brief thought. I can’t say I know what God is. If I could I wouldn’t be speaking of God. I can know who He is, though, because He became like me. I know He exists because He has shown me His love in the sacrament of Confession and through the adoration of the most blessed Sacrament. Further, I know what He wants of me in a general way, through the teachings of the institution He entrusted His revelation to. And I know if I pray and commit myself to learning of Him and His teachings that He will show me His will for me personally. I know faith and trust is paramount. God bless ^^

To Joanp62: you are admitting that you found Casting Crown’s question regarding you being SUBMISSIVE to your husband inappropriate.

This is a kind attempt to dialog with you about that.  I do not find CC’s query at all inappropriate, in light of Ephesians Chapter 5, in fact, it’s very applicable, & even commendable for him/her to broach the topic.

When the mention of wives being submissive to their husbands was a Sunday reading at our church, the pastor chose to edit it out, reading the non-bracketed text only.  Further the pastor did not preach on the topic of wives being submissive to their husbands, and husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the church.

So it’s no wonder that you, Joanp62, found CC’s enlightened comment to be offensive.  You have never been taught very much about St. Paul and his writings, that came from the Holy Spirit.  But you are not to blame for that, Joanp62, your pastor is to blame, your diocese is to blame, and the USCCB is to blame for the majority of Catholics collective ignorance of this important Christian directive, straight from God’s word.

If our clergy would teach verse by verse expository preaching, in context, and most especially about this one subject, it would cause divorce rates (and annulments) to be lowered.  Of course, this topic must be taught honorably, and IN CONTEXT, and not distorted for anyone’s personal gain—even that of our institutional church.  It is God’s word that all of us are called upon to obey.

Casting Crowns - good job, for having the insight to bring this topic up.

This is hopeless. Assume what you will, Terah, God knows my heart and my faith and knowledge of Him. I do not need to explain myself. There comes a time when one needs to “shake the dust from their sandals” and move on to those who will listen to God’s Truth. Good luck.

For some reason this comment below is showing in my email for notifications, but I do not see it posted here.

{The title of the entry is:
As Occult, New Age Practices Increase, so Does Need for Exorcists

@Joanp62: I see you are not a “Titus 2” woman as St. Paul instructs.}}

Well, to whomever wrote this (Casting Crowns?) I will say that I am NOT a ‘cafeteria Catholic’ who picks and chooses from the Bible and Church Teaching what they want to believe or not. I hold to and believe it ALL. Why some on here choose to ASSUME that because I found CC’s question on my being submissive to my husband to be rude and coming way out of left field, that I therefore do not agree with that statement and that I do NOT know God or my faith is downright ignorant, insulting and NOT very Christian.
BTW, I read the Bible daily. I have read the entire New Testament from Matthew to Revelation numerous times.

Scaevola, while I appreciate your defense of me, I do not understand how you can see Terah’s comments about and to me as “meaning well”. She and the other one have been passively aggressive,and accusing me of not being a good Christian/Catholic, when they themselves(Catholics also) have openly dismissed and ridiculed Church teaching, ie: Marian Dogma’s and Sacred Tradition.

Also, before I get another snide reply from someone I did not bow out of this thread, I was posting to Terah that I will not engage with her on this thread in the future. Why-for the reasons given in the previous para. I do agree though that this entire thread has gone nowhere and is way off topic as well.

Joanp62 wrote to me (Terah):
“Leave me out of your posts to other people. If you have a question or issue with me, then kindly address a post to me.”

So I address my next post directly to Joan, as she requested, phrasing it charitably, and as a reply, Joan writes back:
“I did not bow out of this thread, I was posting to Terah that I will not engage with her on this thread in the future.”

Does anyone else see those comments as mixed messages?  I’m still in this conversation, and would still enjoy to read the comments of others.

I still pray everyone would read Ephesians Chapter 6 and the Armor of the Holy Spirit so we can be equipped to battle the evil spiritual forces that surround us, and we will disregard priests that throw holy water and blessed salt at what they perceive as the demonic, such as is the subject of this article/blog.

The fervant prayer of a righteous Christian man or woman avails much, in God’s economy.  Perhaps we can all put down our verbal swords, and pray for each other, today?

I don’t want to enter into dialogue with anyone fighting with anyone about anything (and yes I do graciously obey my husband as well as God, but I was shocked on my 10th wedding anniversary when I was told I was actually expected to obey him (my husband). However, I do feel I got the better end of the deal because I only have to obey, but he has to give his life, and he does give his life for me and our son), but I have a particular fondness for Terah James, and I noticed she mentioned holy water and blessed salt, and disparaged this article. Terah James, you profess to be a Bible believing Catholic. How can you not agree with the Church sending priests to do exorcisms—if that was your point. The Bible is full of examples of Jesus performing exorcisms. Plus Jesus delighted to use simple things like mud, spit and water to work healings, so why not salt and water for exorcisms?  Jesus could have raised his hands and made lightening come out of them, and healed the blind man that way. He would have appeared to be a real supper hero! Why didn’t He? Why did He use mud, spit and water and work the same miracle? What’s so horrible with using a simple thing like blessed salt against Satan? And remember in the book of Acts, they took aprons and handkerchiefs touched them to St. Paul and took them home to heal their sick. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

@Susan Fox:  The message to wives regarding the marriage “vow” of obedience comes from Paul’s letter to the church at Ephesus in Ephesians 5.  It appears the only person “fighting” is Joanp62 who is unable to accept that everyone doesn’t have to agree with her viewpoints—be they hers or in certain areas of Catholic doctrine.  Frankly, any Catholic or Christian wife is bound by your marriage vow which you promised standing before God when you were married by your priest or minister in church.  As for you being shocked that you are “actually expected to to obey your husband” (and only learned about this after 10 years of marriage) speaks only that you were not paying attention to your vows, or to the failure of Priests failing to preach on the NT letters of St. Paul concerning marriage.  The context is that as a wife you are NOT to submit to your husband’s dictatorship, arrogance or ungodly commands, but to submit to his authority over you and your children as spiritual leader of your family and home.  Paul further states the husband’s obligation is to “love his wife as Christ loves the church.”  Indeed, what wife would not willingly submit to her husband *if* he loves her “as Christ loves His church?”  Priests never speak of these things of Paul since they are unmarried and thus cannot relate to this passage.  I once heard our parish priest totally distance himself from this reading at Mass once and stated:  “I’m not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.”  He then went on to talk about something totally unrelated having to do with “today’s Second Collection.”  The problem in marriages both Catholic and Christian is if men are not taught to “actually” lead, it places women in an unnatural role of assuming leadership in the family herself.  She will then unwittingly become hostile to this unnatural role which God never intended and the marriage will never achieve the biblical ideal the Lord describes in Deuteronomy 11:21 “that your days will be like heaven
on earth.

Catholics must agree with ALL areas of Church Teaching on faith, morals, Dogmas, etc. If they are Catholics, and they don’t, then they are disobedient to Christ and His Church and will have to answer to the Lord for that, unless they repent. They are NOT faithful Catholics. This IS Church Teaching, NOT my opinion. No one is forced to BE Catholic. But if you choose to become or remain a Catholic, why wouldn’t you believe their teaching is True? If not, why remain so?

For those who converted to Catholicism, at the Easter Vigil or whenever they were received into the Church, they had to profess: “I believe and profess all that the Catholic Church teaches, believes, and proclaims to be revealed by God.” If you don’t really believe that, then you were being dishonest at the time you came into the Church.

Why be a member of anything if you do not believe all that they are and stand for? Why is that so difficult for some to understand? As for me, I will NOT stop fighting for and defending the Catholic Church. If that upsets some people, then so be it. That is part of being a follower of Christ and proclaiming the Truth. There will be those who hate us for it.

This discussion became not related to the subject of this article, and is focused on winning. The thread should become read-only. For the reason of a great gift - free will - we have a choice to either become good, and that requires growing our conscience in seeking understanding to distinguish good from evil, or become an evil that requests its action to be called good. Make a choice. For Christ sake!

I’m fond of you, too, Susan Fox.  Thank you for the kind words, and for your comment about what I observed regarding the subject matter of this blog.  While I completely understand from where you’re coming as it pertains to exorcism, I believe what this priest is doing (really, how he was taught) is inaccurate.  It is not biblical.

I read in another Catholic publication (I forgot which, but it’s national, and well-respected) that of the 5 people that went to this priest for help with a demon, 4 gave up because the process was taking too long.  The 5th (a scientist) was still going for help, monthly, but he, too, was not relieved of his ailment.  It reminded me of a chiropracter, where one can feel some relief for a few days, but the pain never goes away. (Please: no chiropractors responding!!  If that’s a bad analogy, then you’ll know where I’m going with this & I mean well by it.)

When Jesus, Peter, Paul and the others “healed” either physically or spiritually, the person was HEALED.  It wasn’t a temporary fix. 

It concerns me that when I read about Catholic priests performing exorcisms, such as this one, I never (and I mean never, ever…) read about how God’s word says it ought to be.  Rather, it’s always some Vatican “official rite”.

First, it’s always limited to a function performed by a priest.  My Catholic friend refers to it as “job security” for priests and bishops, to ensure lay people are forbidden from participating - that’s lay men and women too, so the priest is NEEDED.

Yet, she pointed out to me that she noticed in St. Paul’s letters, the church is specifically called a Priesthood of Believers where we are ALL members of the Body of Christ.  That’s not to say there is not an authority structure.  But to God (per Paul’s letters) it’s not a top - down religion.

My friend pointed out that she recently noticed when Paul wrote his letters to the churches, he mostly referred to lay people by name first, later mentioning those of higher authority, like their church elders.

Secondly, in our church, even at Mass, we hear about the Pope, the Bishop, the other clergy, recognized saints first, and last, but not least, those of us in the pews.  It is most certainly from the top, down.  My friend is fond of saying however, that it’s the people in the pews that pay the bills.  So about money, it flows from the bottom, right on up!  <grin>

About materials, Jesus used water, turing it into wine.  Jesus walked on water - to prove that He had control, even over nature.  But what concerns me is when those of us in the pews place our priests/bishops on such a high pedestal, allowing them to be seen as “modern day apostles”, and as such, giving clergymen (like the priest in the article) “powers” held by the apostles, when these men are all just flawed human beings, like the rest of us.  My friend says that everyone (lay Catholics and ordained men alike) only admit they are flawed, when they’re found with their hands in the proverbial cookie jar. Then, they’re “only human”, like the rest of us, and not “holy apostles”, that walk on water with the power to heal and cast out demons.

I do believe Satan exists, as well as fallen angels - somewhere it is written, “We do not fight against flesh and blood but against spiritual powers in the heavenlies” and also, something like this, “Satan scours the earth, looking for whomever he can devour.”  So the demonic is real.  The question is that it’s best to rely only on God’s word, to combat it.
Ephesians Chapter 6 - the Armor of the Holy Spirit is spot on target, as the ideal tools to carry.

Convenient that Casting Crowns drew our attention to Ephesians Chapter 5!
Perhaps there would be fewer divorces & annulments and more God-honoring, long-lasting marriages, if priests would begin to teach about Eph. 5 and Eph. 6 from the altar.

What CC wrote about men turning over their authority to women, who are frustrated by it, reminds me of a book that is titled: “Passive Men.  Wild Women.” —It’s a role reversal, and not what God’s word instructs.  Good call, Casting Crowns!

Also, good for you and for your husband, Susan Fox, for seeing the light of God’s truth, and for living it!  What a wonderful example you are to your family, to your sphere of influence, and to readers on this combox!
Thank you for sharing that with us.

@Joanp62:  [“As for me, I will NOT stop fighting for and defending the Catholic Church. If that upsets some people, then so be it. That is part of being a follower of Christ and proclaiming the Truth.”]  Oh, I see.  Now you are back to being judgmental of other people again.  Now we understand you.  Unless one is Catholic, —by your judgmental standard, it is thus impossible to be a “follower of Christ and proclaim His truth.”  Joanie, I doubt even your parish priest would agree with your judgmental attitude.  Thank you very much.

Casting Crowns: ” Unless one is Catholic, —by your judgmental standard, it is thus impossible to be a “follower of Christ and proclaim His truth.”

I never said that and as a matter of fact I have stated in an earlier post that some Non Catholics are better Christians than Catholics. But as usual, you twist and spin what I write.

My concerns have been with fellow Catholics, ie: you and other Catholics who do not follow those Church Teachings that MUST be upheld by all the faithful. This is serious. For Catholics, these things are NOT optional. For too long, too many Catholics have publicly proclaimed things contrary to the Church (and scripture), ridiculing beautiful teachings and spirituality including certain Dogmas and perfectly legitimate spiritual practices. They have made themselves their own Popes. And it doesn’t matter how “sweetly” one proclaims these errors. This is confusing and misleading for those who are either new to the Faith or weak in their faith, and it does nothing to build up the Body of Christ.

To Susan Fox - As an FYI, Susan, I did not mention earlier that my Catholic friend has a friend that bought the book, “The Rite”, and he insisted she read it when it was a new release.  Reluctantly, she did.

At first she thought it would be scary, and she wasn’t interested in reading it.  But early on, she found it more silly, not at all scary.

I borrowed the book, when she finished reading it, I agreed with her.  The claims made by some of the priests in this book are just silly.  It’s not at all how exorcism is supposed to be, according to the New Testament.

While I felt the priest in the story and the subject of this article is sincere, I think he’s a gullible person, with little discernment.  Most certainly, none of the priests in the book, or its author, know the Bible, God’s word, very well.

The other area of concern about this article, to me, is that the topic of exorcism was discussed at a convention for Catholic Charismatics.  I know a few of them - while they are very sweet people, they do not read the Bible, and they are not very interested in knowing God’s Word, rather, they mostly just enjoy speaking in tongues, letting me (and my Catholic friend) out, because neither of us speak anything but English.  “Let’s pray” to them is a low roar of babble, that no one can understand, and it has little value—only to themselves.

Red flags go up for me, when God’s word takes second place to anything else.  It’s like admiring the creation or the gift, instead of admiring The Creator and The Giver of the gift.  I thought this would help you to understand more of where I come from, Susan.  Just an FYI.  Thanks and have a wonderful Thanksgiving Day!

@Joanp62:  [“I have stated in an earlier post that some Non Catholics are better Christians than Catholics.”]  So what’s the problem if all who believe are in the Body of Christ?  Why have you gotten yourself all worked up into a lather over this?

You are a deceiver, Casting Crowns. Goodbye.

Casting Crowns - I do not see anything objectionable in any of your posts.  I can only guess because you ask direct and pointed questions, you make some people feel uncomfortable.  Instead of remaining quiet, trying to self-educate on what made them feel ill-equipped to handle your queries, they spew out labels and words that would hurt those that are thin-skinned.

From your posts, I do not think you’re thin-skinned.  But regardless, I feel the need to offer you a hearty and sincere Christian apology for the shabby way you’ve been treated on this Catholic blog.  You did not deserve the vitriolic jabs that were hurled your way. 

I hope those of us interested in engaging in dialog about our Catholic-Christian faith will meet you again, on future NC Register blogs.
Thank you for your contributions to this discussion.  Wishing everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving Day, 2012.

Well, Casting Crowns, I agree 100 percent that somebody should have taught me what my wedding vows meant, and I agree I was pretty careless not to take them seriously. But on my 10th wedding anniversary I went to a discernment retreat and the Catholic priest informed us that we did indeed have to obey our husbands. Now since then I’ve learned that if you have a husband who tries to get you to disobey the Church in faith or morals then you don’t have to obey. Same with a Catholic pastor or bishop. I had a friend whose husband wouldn’t allow her to go to Mass on Sunday for over 20 years. And she finally got rid of him after he held a gun to her head. I don’t believe that she had a valid marriage, and wasn’t required to obey him. I think she was forced to obey the ban on Mass attendance because she feared for the support of her seven children, and she feared abuse. When I met her she was a little bundle of love, and I’m sure she is in heaven now. She was a third order Franciscan. But obeying my husband is definitely legitimate because he is a good loving Catholic husband, who obeys God, and would give his life for me and my son. And we have a valid Catholic marriage. That doesn’t mean he’s always right, or never sins. There are times I wanted things like going to a certain retreat, and he said “No.” Well I just went to the Blessed Mother and a few days later, he said, “Yes.”
Terah James, priests are human men, but they still have divine powers given to them by Jesus Christ. The power to forgive belongs only to God, yet Catholic priests are given this authority by Jesus Christ. And it is biblical. I agree we should not put priests on pedestals. But they are—by the fact of their ordination—an alter Christi. So that means when they walk into the room, I stand. I stand not for the man, but for Jesus Christ, whose power and authority they were given by an ordained bishop, who was ordained by a bishop, who wash ordained by a bishop, who was ordained by one of the 12 apostles. It’s called the apostolic succession. I know in one culture in San Francisco, it was customary to kneel and kiss the hands of the priest. The simple people did that. They felt they were kissing the hands of Jesus. One priest—I noticed—mistook the attention. He thought they were kissing his hands. He had his nails nicely manicured. The people in faith didn’t see him, they saw Christ. Now even bishops make mistakes. I always tell people if a cardinal walks into the room and says the Consecrated Eucharist is just bread, not the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, I would kiss his ring, give him respect, recognizing that he was another Christ, but I would not pay any attention to what he said because he is not teaching the truth. St. Teresa of Avila had a vision during Mass, she saw the priest during the consecration with a demon wrapped around his throat, but she saw that the host was Jesus Christ. She understood by this that the priest was in mortal sin, but he nevertheless was able to consecrate the host into the Body, Blood, Soul Divinity of Jesus Christ. Why did she have that vision? During that time, it was a popular heresy that unless the priest was in sanctifying grace, he couldn’t say Mass or offer the sacraments. The sacraments would be invalid offered by a priest in mortal sin. That is not true. Thank God. Should my husband be in serious sin, but order me to do something not contrary to faith and morals, I still must obey him. The same is true for exorcism. A priest has that authority from Jesus Christ. Not many of them use it unfortunately. And in no way is it biblical that every exorcism was instantaneous. You’ve forgotten the apostles who tried to exorcize someone and came back to Jesus and complained that they couldn’t. Jesus wisely answered that that kind of demon has to be exorcized through much prayer and fasting. That’s what these priests are doing. Their job is not easy. I really know. It requires regular confession and great humility or the evil one will mock you.  I have been involved in two exorcisms as a lay person saying deliverance prayers (the Rosary), and I saw that case where a person is delivered from a demon, and then demon goes out and finds seven more demons and returns to the victim, and his situation was worse than before. After the exorcism, my friend knocked on my door, and it was obvious he was possessed by more demons, and more powerful ones. My friend who was possessed by them did not have his normal happy bappy personality. The creatures inhabiting him were oily, really oily. After his exorcism, I had given him a copy of True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. St. Louis Marie de Montfort predicted in the book “True Devotion to Mary” that little demons would come and tear the book apart or at least cause it to be hidden in a trunk for 100 years. It was hidden in a trunk for 100 years, and then translated into every language in the world. It was the basis for the spirituality of St. Maximilian Kolbe who died at Austiwitz in a starvation bunker having given his life for a Jewish man with a large family. It is also the spiritual basis for the Legion of Mary, numerous religious orders. And it forms the basis of the teaching on Mary in Vatican II, so it’s totally approved by the Church.
Any way I gave this book to my friend after his exorcism, and he returned as this oily creature. He gave me the book back, and quietly with great disdain asked me if I had read it. I said yes. And he said it is not a good book. But it wasn’t my friend’s personality at all! This creature was oily, sly and very confident. Then he showed me what the “Holy Spirit” thought of True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. He lived in the apartment in my basement. So I followed him down there. The shelves had all been knocked off the walls. He had read two paragraphs of de Montfort’s book, and he had proceeded to write 20 pages of gibberish about it. I read it. It was gibberish. Gibberish in black pencil. Another friend later said it was spirit writing, a demonic manifestation. She had been involved in the New Age movement and left it. And that was the proof the oily creature had that the “Holy Spirit” (really a demon) hated the True Devotion to Mary. Well, the Holy Spirit doesn’t tell the Catholic Church something and then tell someone else something in private revelation. That would make the Holy Spirit a liar, and we all know who the liar is here, the father of lies. So I knew it wasn’t any “holy” spirit talking to my friend. But to top it all off, my cat, Winston, who had never ventured into the basement apartment before followed me down there, and proceeded to cry and cry and try to get me out of that place. And my friend looked at my cat like he wanted to kill it. “What’s the matter with that animal?” he asked. I finally obeyed my cat (it was a blessed cat), and got out of there. Sometimes you got to obey your cat as well as your husband! Then a good Catholic friend and I proceeded to pray the Rosary together asking for the Blessed Virgin Mary to go down into the basement and crush the head of the serpent. Long story short, my friend was finally relieved of his demons, and returned to his boisterous personality, met the blind girl across the street, got married and had three children. But the first indication I had of this he wrote a poem about “Love Wings” and gave it to me. The poem said “Love Wings” had come down into the basement and ended his confusion. He referred to living in chaos and “Love Wings” ended the chaos. Now the poem imitated exactly what we had prayed. Let the Blessed Mother (from Gen.3:15) go down into the basement and crush the head of the serpent. Of course, her power is from the SEED, Jesus Christ. The Woman and her Seed will crush his head, and he will bite her heel (annoy us). My friend couldn’t recognize her except as “Love Wings” because he was a lapsed Catholic and had been badly abused as a child in some situation. Sometimes when children from Catholic homes are badly abused they have a very difficult time returning to the Church.
Whether he stayed unpossessed I don’t know. I haven’t seen him in many years. But I had another friend who was possessed and exorcised, and she has slipped back into that unpleasant state many times—at least that’s what it appears to me. I had her care when she was possessed, and I saw what that was like close up, and then I saw her after she was exorcized. And I have heard she enters the same state as when I had her in my care.
So it is not biblical that exorcisms are instantaneous. And indeed I have read books by the chief exorcist of the Vatican, and it does sometimes require many exorcism prayers and much sacrifice to remove some demons. Always these situations occur for the greater glory of God. God is able to bring good out of these great sufferings. But best thing to do is avoid Ouiji boards, seances and the like so you don’t have to suffer through such a thing.
Also regarding the worship of priests who are just men. I want to say in this terrible liberal culture we’ve entered in the Church in many parishes, the priest has become a celebrity or an actor or the main squeeze on the altar whereas he should be a servant of the Word who offers Sacrifice to God. There was a group called Liturgy in Santa Fe started by a Dominican priest who has now passed away. Fr. Blaze Schauer, O.P. He designed a Church in the panhandle of Texas. It was brilliant. You know how you walk into Notre Dame in Paris and your eyes are just drug up to ceiling—the Medieval Catholics feeling that real life begins in the after life. Well, Fr. Schauer designed St. Lawrence Cathedral so your eyes are just drug to the Tabernacle, which was placed at the center of the Church. In the ‘70s I think he was one of the first to create the cuddle. That is, he created a Church where the congregation sat in a semi-circle around the Tabernacle. He set projectors into the walls and used the white wall to show the words to music or the picture of a saint for a day. He used all the great music created by the Church from all the centuries. His Masses were lovely. We had Michaelmass daisies for St. Michael’s Day and on Pentecost after Mass we celebrated with flaming cherries jubilee. On St. Lawrence’s feastday they served steak. He was the saint who was grilled, and joked “I’m done on that side. Turn me over.” Anyway he built this lovely church and it had niches for the saints, etc. Oh sadly, sadly, some years ago I went back to St. Lawrence’s Cathedral in Texas, and the people who have control of the Church don’t understand it. They had put the priest’s chair in the the place where the tabernacle once stood. Please understand the Church was designed to be absolutely passionate about that one spot—the center of the Church where the tabernacle was supposed to be. I recognized what they were doing occurs in many parishes in the United States. In Yorba Linda, Calif. I went to Christmas Mass one year, and after Mass, the priest, the lectors, all the people involved in the Mass came out for a bow like after the Santa Fe Opera. They saw themselves as performers! In one parish in Washington State I recognized that my pastor was like a king. People worshipped him, not Jesus Christ. They turned the Mass into a big party about Fr. xxxx. Really, this is very wrong. We are there to worship Jesus Christ, not a man. And so the priest with the manicured nails or the one sitting in the chair where the tabernacle should be or the one bowing after Mass as if he’s just acted in a play—they have taken to themselves something that belongs to Jesus Christ alone. We must worship Jesus Christ alone. Sadly, one Catholic columnist in Seattle said during the 1990s we have to stop “Jesus Idolatry.” My goodness, that is the one worship we are allowed! We must worship Jesus Christ. Stop priest idolatry. Stop chocolate idolatry and stop self idolatry.
Now the priest chair in the last 30 years has moved in some parishes into the wrong place because they made them say Mass facing the congregation. They turned the priest into a performer. When he said Mass ad orientum, he had his back to the congregation. He stood as a priest offering sacrifice for the people. That was proper. However, the way the Mass is said now is approved by the Church and I am a daughter of the Church so I obey. Recently, Pope Benedict has encouraged it be said ad orientum as well. So both postures are correct. I prefer the ad orientum posture, but you’ll never sell that in liberal parishes. God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Susan, well said, as usual. God Bless and have a blessed Thanksgiving.

Susan, that has to be the longest response I’ve ever seen on a blog.  Wow.
This thread has gone far wrong in its contents, no longer being about a rogue priest or three that are exorcising people who aren’t even of the Faith.  I talked to a friend about this, who reckoned it with religious rape: people being forced to do something that is against their will and beliefs.  It’s really no different than the fact that we will all probably be “baptized” into the Mormon faith after we die through their controversial ceremony.
Susan, I have a couple of questions for you.  I’m trying to be respectful here, so if that doesn’t come through in my words, I apologize.  Sometimes, the Spirit does not move me with the words I’m really searching for.  You acknowledge that priests are just men, that should not be idolized or treated like a celebrity, yet you state that you treat them as such by standing when they enter, honoring them as Christ.  Please direct me to teachings that say that priests are alternate Christs.  I have not been able to find that and my own priest tells me that this is not the teachings from the Vatican.  A priest is a teacher, a gateway to Christ.  We are not to bow before our priests, but follow them to a deeper understanding of God.  That is why they turn towards us during mass, to teach us.  They turn towards the tabernacle in my parish for praising and worshipping God, then back to the congregation to teach. 
Susan, you also state that you go to the Blessed Mother for intervention with your husband.  Have we not been warned to hold no higher power than God?  Far too many traditional (and wretched liberal) Catholics still hold the notion that Mary has some kind of power.  Again, I am reaching for the right words here.  We are not to worship Mary.  She was but a lowly human, like us.  She was blessed, but she was merely a vessel for Christ to be born.  She was given a higher stature when we, as a faith, worked to rid the pagans of the notion of a female deity and bring them into the one true faith.  She is not a deity.  She was human.  To worship her is wrong in God’s eyes. 
I think those were the only points I had.  My brain is mottled this early in the morning, after being up much of the night talking with my priest.  Thank you for any polite response you feel inclined to give.  It is well appreciated. 

@Susan Fox:  You are repeating what I have already stated.  Obedience to your husband does not mean your submission to his dictatorship or ungodly and sinful behaviors or practices.  Also, in marriage, there can ultimately be only “one” who leads.  You cannot have two people pulling in different directions.  Even if you disagree with your husband, if he is a godly and righteous man, you are required to follow his lead in important decisions.  If you are fighting against him your marriage will essentially fail because you have rebelled against his leadership which God has ordained in marriage.

Susan Fox - you made so many points that I will need to read it more carefully, after Thanksgiving, when I have time to give all you wrote the attention it deserves.  You are most certainly on a search for Jesus, the Christ, and trying to know more about the Christian faith, so that you can live it, and be a good witness.

Your cat, Winston—had good instincts!  I’m glad you heeded his warning!
About everything else though, including the mention that the apostles could not exorcise a demon without Jesus, that was BEFORE Pentecost.  After Pentecost, all the apostles were indeed empowered, and we, as Temples of the Holy Spirit, are to be empowered too, not just priests that are deemed “official” by the Vatican/diocese.

For so much of what you wrote—and I just scanned the second half—it would seem that the entirety of the Bible, New Testament and Old, would have to be disregarded, placing Tradition or what some saint wrote over it. Yet, the Bible is God’s own word.  Back later…... 

It really is saddening the number of Catholics who really do not understand the Catholic Church and Her Teachings. There are no “brands” of Catholicism only some Catholics who do not understand it. The troubling thing is when faithful Catholics try so hard and so patiently to explain the Truth, those who are confused refuse to even consider it and try to turn the tables around presenting error as Truth.

Dear Terah James,
Then if they weren’t empowered before Pentecost, why didn’t Jesus say so? Why didn’t he say, “Oh you can’t do that yet.” Why did He say instead. “This kind can only be exorcized by prayer and fasting.”? Why would He say that if it was not always true? You have a habit of telling me I’m ignoring the Bible when you are doing so. Read the text carefully before you respond, and I mean what Jesus said when they couldn’t exorcise the demon. Read it in the entire context of the passage. Happy Thanksgiving. I’m a believer in taking a break too. Love you lots. Susan
Yes, Casting Crowns I did feel like I was just emphasizing what you already said. As I said, I agreed 100 percent. Love you lots, God bless you. Susan

Dear Kali,
Yes, I’d be happy to try explain. But first I do want to say this article is not about rogue priests. The pope has asked that every diocese in the world have an official exorcist. Near as I can see they are complying.  The first priest quoted in this article is the official exorcist for the San Jose Diocese. That means he has the full authority of the Roman Catholic Church to do what he is doing. Read the book, The Rite. It has background on a training program that is going on in Rome for exorcists. Fr. Gabriel Amorth the chief exorcist in Rome has written many informative books giving the biblical basis for what he is doing.  Why is the Catholic Church gearing up to give the laity greater access to the rite of exorcism? Kali, I have in my life seen with my own eyes three demoniacs. This has happened in the last 30 years. I am 59. I never saw any before 30 years ago. Yet demoniacs are part of the scene in the Bible when Jesus lived. He encountered them all the time. Why? The world wasn’t Christianized yet. Why are they appearing today? Because we live in a post-Christian society. People have lost Christianity, lost their morals and many have turned to various forms of witchcraft. Hence there is an increase in the number of possessions, and thank God the Church is doing something about it because the people who are possessed really suffer.
There is really only one high priest, and it is Jesus Christ. (Read Book of Hebrews) Priest means victim. Christ—the sinless victim—offered Himself in our place to redeem us from our sins. Every other priest participates in Christ’s priesthood and hence becomes another Christ. This occurred when Jesus said to Peter, “You are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church.” Then he gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven and told him whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Now this is a divine power, and he gave it to Peter before he denied him three times. Peter was human. He sinned like we do, but he was given this authority for our benefit. After the Resurrection Jesus appears to the apostles and gives them the power to forgive sins or retain them. Now the Jews knew that only God could forgive sins. That’s part of the reason they crucified Jesus because he claimed to be able to do what only God could do.  Forgiving sins is a divine power. Recognize those 11 guys (Judas had already hung himself) were human. They sinned. But Christ gave them the power to forgive sins anyway. Why? For us, of course. For out benefit, and I take advantage of that gift weekly in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I feel tons better due to that sacrament. You can find the same information in the New Catholic Catechism. You should research it. It is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, individual Catholic priests do not always know or agree with the Church, and therefore the laity have the obligation to research the Church’s position directly themselves. And everything is online so there is no excuse not to. In the 1950s people would go to their pastor and ask a question and usually get the right answer, but that has changed dramatically since then. I know people who had their tubes tied supposedly with their bishop’s written permission, others were told artificial birth control was okay with the Church. The rebellion within the hierarchy in the United States after Pope Paul VI wrote Humanae Vitae is well documented. That is, priests, nuns, laity rebelled against the Vatican when it told them artificial contraception was illicit. So if you were speaking to one of those busy rebelling against the Church, they would not tell you the truth. This is actually good because it means we have a more well-informed laity. We are not merely passive sheep.
Kali, my point above in the long posting was that we should not treat priests as celebrities, and I criticized several instances where priests were treated as celebrities. But when you honor a priest as another Christ, you are honoring Christ, not the priest. So when the priest was getting his manicured hands kissed in San Francisco by the devout laity, they were honoring Christ, not that priest. But it appeared to me—perhaps I am being judgmental—that the priest himself did not understand this, and thought he was being treated as a celebrity.
During Mass, priests are there to offer Christ’s eternal sacrifice. That would best be shown using the ad orientum posture, but you are right, they are supposed to teach, and they can do that easily during the homily which is the explaining of the Word of God. And whether they say Mass facing the people or with their back to the people, they are always going to give the homily/teach facing the people. But the second half of the Mass, where one might want to offer it ad orientum, is not about teaching. It is about offering the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ back to the Father, a re-presentation of Christ’s one time Sacrifice on the Cross.
Yes, Mary is a mere creature and not to be worshipped, and I certainly do not worship her.She does not want to be worshipped.  Best to read about the Communion of Saints in the New Catholic Catechism. That will explain it to you. Also the book “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis Marie de Montfort begins with the statement that Mary is a mere creature, and then goes on to explain how devotion (not worship) to Mary can bring you closer to Christ. Any true devotion has Christ as its true goal or end or else it is false devotion. So when I ask Mary for help with my husband, she goes to her Father or her Son or her Holy Husband and asks for help for me if she recognizes that what I am praying for is God’s will. When she asks, the Son who taught “honor your father and mother” is very eager to do as she requests. That is what he did at Cana at the wedding. She merely said “They have no wine.” And he worked his first public miracle. Mary—being in heaven—will not ask for anything contrary to God’s will as she was completely united with Him in life, and so she is in eternal life.
There is no religious rape in an exorcism. The people who go for exorcism seek it. They want it. They have to make an appointment and request it. If you read The Rite or Fr. Gabriel Amorth books you will see. God bless you Kali. Susan Fox
http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com
P.S. it is the Protestants who teach Mary was merely a vessel to bring Christ into the world. The Catholic Church from the earliest days has taught she is “Mother of God,” not merely mother of the physical body, but real mother of the Son, who is both True God and True Man. If you call her a physical vessel for Christ’s birth, sort of the mother of Jesus’ human side, you split Him in two. He is one Person, with two natures, human and divine. Therefore the Church calls her Mother of God. She is also the new Eve—the mother of all the living (this is in Vatican II documents). Jesus is the New Adam. Adam and Eve sinned and brought death into the world. Mary cooperated in Jesus death and crucifixion, standing faithfully at the foot of the cross, and by this means cooperated in our redemption, becoming the New Eve, mother of all the living. Christ emphasized this from the cross when He said, “Behold Your Mother.” This is the teaching of the Catholic Church and is from the writings of the early Church Fathers (the next generations after the apostles.) There are some Filipino cults that say the Rosary by saying “Holy Mary, Mother of Jesus, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.” (Instead of Holy Mary, Mother of God) And by this means they deny the divinity of Christ.

It is really saddening the number of Catholics who really do not understand Christianity and its teachings.  There are no “brands” of Christianity, only some Catholics who do not understand it.  The troubling thing is when the faithful try so hard and patiently to explain the Truth, those who are confused (Joanp62) refuse to even consider it and try to turn the tables around presently error as Truth.

I’ve been occupied with Thanksgiving and not had a chance to read all of what’s been contributed to this blog, but this caught my notice—something Susan Fox wrote to Kali: “There is really only one high priest, and it is Jesus Christ. (Read Book of Hebrews) Priest means victim.”

Will someone weigh in on that?  Even Susan?  Perhaps it was not written the way it was intended? Specifically, I refer to “Priest means victim.”
I can’t agree with that, and don’t quite know how even to respond to it.
Will read the rest later this week.  Thank you!  Hope everyone is having a blessed week before Advent!

Terah James, You’re right. I misspoke, every Christian is priest and victim. The Catholic priest is a victim because he has to make present to us the priesthood of Christ. Priest actually means the guy who offers sacrifice.  By his ordination he shares in the Priesthood of Christ.  If we are are going to share in the life of Christ, we have to share in His victimhood. JESUS SAID, “UNLESS YOU PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.”  A cross is an instrument of death. In effect Jesus was saying unless you pick up the instrument of your death you cannot be my disciple.  If we think we are justified by faith alone as Martin Luther believed, we are not his disciple. Faith alone is a denial of the cross. We are saved by faith and love—a form of victimhood. Without faith, you cannot please God, and without love, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.  Christ is the great High Priest and Victim (Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world) If we can’t embrace His victimhood, we cannot be his disciple. Every priest in the Old Testament was a type, an imperfect foreshadowing of Jesus Christ. Every type has to foreshadow the anti-type. Christ is the anti-type. He is the great High Priest, the Perfect Sinless Victim offered for our sins. There is no priesthood outside Jesus Christ and every priest must participate in Christ’s priesthood or he is not a priest.
Speaking to his apostles, James and John, Jesus asked, “Can you drink from the cup that I drink? Can you be baptized with the same bapitism I receive?” He referred to his sufferings. That reality exists only in the priesthood of Jesus Christ. You are a mystical member of the Body of Christ, you are called to be priest and victim. That’s why as Catholics we receive the blood of Christ at Mass. Can you drink from the cup that I drink? Sacramentally that is how we are united to Christ. St. Paul said we are baptized into the death of Christ, and when we drink from the cup it is a participation in the blood of Christ, that is in his Victimhood. 
The Catholic priest is a victim because he has to make present to us the priesthood of Christ. For more information on the priesthood, read the Vatican II document PRESBYTERORUM ORDINIS. I found it here:http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v2minis.htm

God bless you. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

@Susan Fox:  [“we have to share in His victimhood.”]—-  [“If we can’t embrace His victimhood, we cannot be his disciple.”]  Both statements are patently and biblically false.  “Priest” does not mean victim nor victimhood.  Discipleship in Christ is based on belief and obedience.  Further, [“unless you pick up the instrument of your death you cannot be my disciple.”]  A cross in one’s life can mean many things such as events, personal circumstances, relationships lost, career and life disappointments, problems in health issues, business matters and whatever.  You’ve taken extreme license to tell readers their “cross” is the instrument of their death.  Indeed, submission of *your* will to His (in all things) is the “taking up of one’s cross.”  Your explanation is way out of whack. [“The Catholic priest is a victim because he has to make present to us the priesthood of Christ.”]  The Aaronic Priesthood ended at Calvary since no further priestly sacrifices are needed (that is, unless you think the work of Christ was—not—completed at Calvary).  [“If we think we are justified by faith alone as Martin Luther believed, we are not his disciple. Faith alone is a denial of the cross.”]  You are purposely distorting and mischaracterizing what Luther (a Catholic priest and reformer) said and intended for faith encompasses far more than merely saying one “believes.”  You need a solid course on the Book of Hebrews to gain a proper understanding regarding what is OT practice now ended versus NT completed requirements concerning salvation Ms. Fox, you seem to have a propensity to invent your own theology regarding many topics which do nothing but confuse people regarding the truth of Christ Jesus.

Dear Casting Crowns, Please show me from any Roman Catholic magisterial document where I am wrong. The Book of Hebrews does show that the Old Testament priesthood ended with the death and resurrection of Jesus. I was not arguing that it didn’t. I was talking about how the Old Testament has types. So Psalm 22 accurately describes the sufferings of Christ, but it was written centuries before. The prophecy, “The virgin will be with child” in the Old Testament was fulfilled by Mary in the New Testament. Old Testament priests spent centuries killing little lambs in atonement for our sins, and Abraham said to Isaac before he planned to sacrifice his own son, “God Himself will provide the lamb for the sacrifice,” a prophetic statement fulfilled when St. John the Baptist said (seeing Jesus) “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.” The little lambs were the victims in the Old Testament. Christ is the Victim in the New Testament. So that brings us back to the Book of Hebrews: “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins (by his sacrifice on the cross), he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs.”
Your quibble about the instrument of death is with Jesus Christ. He is the one who said it. The cross being an instrument of death, does not exclude other little sufferings. Certainly not. But Jesus wasn’t “nice.” He was honest. A man who would tell you to your face that you are like a whitened sepulcher—nice and clean on the outside but with rotting bones at your core—is not “nice” in the modern sense where we tend to water everything down. Jesus was an intensely honest man. So telling his apostles that they had to pick up the instrument of their death (and by the way most of them were martyred) if they wanted to be his disciples is right in character with Jesus’ other statements in the New Testament.
Re: your statement, “Ms. Fox, you seem to have a propensity to invent your own theology regarding many topics which do nothing but confuse people regarding the truth of Christ Jesus.”
You should be aware that you have a tendency to attack people here at this site with personal slurs. If we disagree, we disagree. If you accuse me of something, you must prove it. So I repeat, please show me from any Roman Catholic magisterial document where I am wrong. Susan Fox http://christsfaithfulwitness.blogspot.com

Dear Casting Crowns, 

Martin Luther was excommunicated for his professions of “Faith Alone” and “Scripture Alone, ” formulations which were Unbiblical and Unhistorical in Christian History and his denial that the “Mass was a Sacrifice” and the “ordained priesthood.”

So Susan cannot be accused of making things up. She can only be accused of presenting what the Latin, Greek, Coptic, Ambrosian, Syrian, Galician, Armenian, and Malabar Rites received and professed from apostolic times.

Arguments from Bible Alone are not historical and possibly imaginative. They must be rooted in what the Church received and professed from the beginning which is why Martin Luther was expelled. Martin Luther argued all were wrong even the Councils and that he was correct.

The church clearly teaches that with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Aaron/Levite Priesthood ended … Jesus instituted the New Priesthood accordingly to the Order of Melchizidech.  Which is why evangelical dispensationalist(s) are wacko…funneling money so Jews can rebuild the temple, re-establish the Aaron/Levite Priesthood and re-establish animal sacrifice.

On Holy Thursday; Jesus instituted the New Priesthood, the New Covenant in himself following the same rubrics in Exodus and Leviticus (he bathed his apostles prior to their participation in the Sacrifice of Thanksgiving Eucharist) and though his action he fulfilled the prophecies in the Psalms and transformed the sacrifice of thanksgiving of Melchizidech (offering only bread and wine) into an offering to the Father “This is my body, and this is my blood.”

This is the Sacrifice of Spirit and Truth that St. John is talking about since Jesus said the Hour has come when true worshipper must worship the Father in spirit and Truth and what was that Hour…John tells us on the night he was betrayed, Jesus knew the Hour had come… and then he proceeds to institute the Last Supper.

“Take and eat this is my body” followed by the command “DO THIS” and the Church has from the beginning DONE THIS daily not weekly, monthly, yearly like those who have diminished the significance of the Last Supper.

“Take and drink this is my blood, the blood of the new and every lasting covenant poured out for many, ” followed with the command “DO THIS.”

The clear proof of this is the verbiage of the miracle of the loaves and fishes the miracle of the last supper as shown in Mark’s Gospel…the language is the same.

If the type exists in the Old Testament it is fulfilled in the new.  The problem is that Protestantism spiritualized (removed the substance) from the actions and commands of Jesus Christ. Their spiritual patrimony is rooted in Gnosticism and not Historical Christianity.

St. Paul clearly writes to the Church in Corinth that through the receiving of the loaf (arton) is a participation in the body of Christ (Jesus in this act of worship is the victim, the unblemished lamb of God) and through the receiving of the cup there is a participation in the blood of Christ. St. Paul says clearly that we are one because we share in the one loaf, and the one cup and not because of spiritual convictions alone.  Which is another reason why the formulation of “faith alone” is unbiblical. 

St. Paul then clearly goes on to show how this participation takes place…he received from the Lord (through the mouths of the apostles) what he is passing down to them namely: “On the night that Jesus was about to dies, he took bread, gave the blessing broke it ,,,.”

St. Paul then clearly goes on to say “therefore when eat this loaf and drink this cup we proclaim the “DEATH OF LORD JESUS UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN.”  The Mass is the liturgical proclamation and participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As for the words of Jesus about the disciple picking up his cross … they are what they are.

Jesus said unless you carry your cross…anyone who seeks to save his life will lose it. Yes our cross(es) are the little and big things offered up to God and they are a death to self… We received the Holy Spirit so that we would no longer live for ourselves but for him.
LGF

hello,  a priest told us that we should read the bible because it is the WORD OF GOD ... so i did and finish it many times BUT, THERE IS NO SUCH WORD AS PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE(CATHOLIC BIBLE)... JESUS NEVER EVER MENTION   ” PURGATORY “.. only HEAVEN AND HELL… NO PURGATORY…

we can’t also say that because a man cast out demons it already means that he’s bound for heaven because LORD JESUS said : “MANY WILL COME TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN YOUR NAME? CAST OUT DEMONS IN YOUR NAME? AND IN YOUR NAME, HAVE DONE MANY WONDERS? BUT I WILL TELL THEM, : DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS, I NEVER KNEW YOU”

now, when i read the book of Jeremiah 10, it talks that GOD is not a statue or made of wood, now don’t be mad at me , i didn’t say it, it’s the prophet Jeremiah ... it contradicts what the nuns and priests have been teaching…

:( you got some explaining to do…

@Susan Fox:  We agree the OT Levitical order had priests to make sacrificial offerings for sin atonement on behalf of the people.  Since we also agree the Aaronic priesthood ended at Calvary, no further offerings are then required by *others* on our behalf.  If you disagree you are thus in denial of 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”  Your perspective also dismisses any relevance to the Temple curtain of the Holy of Holies being torn from the top down rather than from the bottom up.

@LGF:  Distortions of position exist in both Evangelical and Catholic thought concerning the age of dispensation.  That the church today (Roman Catholic or Protestant) has replaced Israel in salvation history is totally without biblical foundation and denies Deuteronomy 32:10, Zechariah 2:8 and others passages including Jeremiah 31: 38-40 to wit:  “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.  The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah.  The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord.  The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”  The problem for those who accept the idea the church has replaced Israel denies God’s word is true and accepts He is untrustworthy.  God does NOT break His covenant.  He keeps His word.  Despite all of Israel’s failings and disobedience in the OT and to this day, we serve a faithful God who says “I change not.”  You would have to also dismiss Jeremiah 32: 37-40 to wit: “I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety.  They will be my people, and I will be their God.  I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them.  I will make an everlasting covenant with them, I will never stop doing good to them.”  If one believes God breaks His promises then surely one’s faith rests on shifting sand.