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The situation around Ground Zero may be changing somewhat since I wrote my mega-post series on Cordoba House a few weeks ago.
There will be, it now seems, no “9/11 mosque,” or even “close to 9/11 mosque.” In fact, it looks like there will be no mosque at all. In spite of what the official websites of the Cordoba Initiative and the Park51 project once said, changes in the websites and a new statement by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf indicate a different trajectory for the project.
Whether this a change in tack or a clarification of intent is not entirely clear. Not long ago, as I documented, the Cordoba Initiative and Park51 websites both indicated that the planned facility would include a mosque; the terms “mosque” and “prayer space” were used interchangeably. The Cordoba Initiative website stated:
It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space (mosque) in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.
Likewise, the Park51 website confirmed that the facilities would include “a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community.”
However, these statements were contradicted by comments made in the press by Daisy Khan, Rauf’s wife and project co-sponsor. According to Khan:
We insist on calling it a prayer space and not a mosque, because you can use a prayer space for activities apart from prayer. You can’t stop anyone who is a Muslim despite his religious ideology from entering the mosque and staying there … With a prayer space, we can control who gets to use it.
Which characterization was correct? A few weeks ago I said that “it seems reasonable to conclude” that a mosque was planned for the site. However, at least since the beginning of September both websites have been revised to come in line with Khan’s statements—and it looks like the mosque is off the table. The Cordoba Initiative website now reads:
It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.
Notice what’s missing? The parenthetical word “mosque” has been deleted. The updated page also states explicitly:
Strictly speaking, it will not be a “mosque,” although it would have a prayer space on one of its 15 floors.
The Park51 website, now relaunched as a blog, has also been brought into line, and now says that there will be “a prayer space, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community.”
That’s not all. In his first public statement on the subject since the controversy went viral, Imam Rauf writes in Tuesday’s New York Times:
There will be separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths. The center will also include a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks.
The proposal of prayer space not just for Muslims but also for Christians, Jews and others is something I haven’t seen before. The Cordoba House nor Park51 websites only mention Muslim prayer space. That could change, though.
It is also worth noting that Rauf not only says that there will be a multifaith 9/11 memorial, but specifically says that it will be “dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks.” Likewise, the Cordoba Initiative website speaks of a “9/11 victims memorial.” That doesn’t sound like anything anyone could reasonably suspect of being part of a “triumphal” project.
Finally, Cordoba House opponents who have raised questions about where the funding is coming from will note that Rauf has also now promised that the sources of all funds will be declared. Apparently no funds have been raised yet, so how this will work remains to be seen, but it’s an encouraging statement on Rauf’s part.
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“If you build it they will come.” Who ? Yeah and what happens if we don’t ,they attack us with terrorism ? You’ve got to be kidding and this is off the hook nuts ! What is this black mail ? Imam and Gamel need to chill ! Go take your peaceful religious vision to the Middle East and Iman sounded threatening.If we pull out of the area of Ground 0 it could cause a national security concern ? Are they trying to say they didn’t know that prior to placing a Mosque near the area Ground 0 of which is very sensitive.Don’t stomp on our US Constitution in the name of religion and be respectful of 71% of Americans that oppose.You’re not building peaceful bridges, you’re causing controversy and don’t call me as an American citizen a radical.I respect Freedom of Religion and went to a private Baptist University.Let me tell ya what, those religion classes were tough for a reason !My Bible says,“tho shalt not worship false God’s before me.” ThWe have a individual choice in the USA and let’s keep it that way. There are lots of other areas to build that do not identify with the area of Ground 0. That’s why we have Homeland Security and the best military in the world and not putting up with terrorism or threats.If they don’t get the money to build then what ? The Islamic head lines read what ? Americans refuse to donate to the Mosque and the Islamic radicals threaten to cause problems ? Go find another location and build a peaceful Mosque but this area isn’t buiding bridges that support a positive feeling and it identifies with 911.Get your radical behinds straightened out and behave and sign up for Clinton’s Peace Treaty !Don’t blame the US cause you don’t have Freedom of Religion and they stone people to death or cut their nose off.That kind of reaction is behavorially,emotionally disturbed and needs to stop ! Don’t they want to pray somewhere they feel good and that’s all fine but not near Ground 0. We don’t burn Bibles and we don’t burn Qurans to make a point either.Peace be with you ! Should we play the song ,“Foot Loose”...kick off your Sunday shoes.Amen and find a new location to pray as many times a day as you may.Thank-you for your consideraion Mr. Imam and Gamel. By the way Gamel, it takes more of a man to walk away from a fight than it does to badly beat another man in anger that you’re fined and he’s in the hospital.
“Peace.” (a) You keep using the word “mosque.” Did you read my post? (b) Who is the “we” who may or may not build the center? We’re talking about plans for site(s) that are privately owned. Has anyone asked you or me to do anything? (c) You’re giving people flak for hypothetical future threats of violence that haven’t happened? Is that Christian? (d) I appreciate your point about walking away from fights. Is this a fight you’re prepared to walk away from? (e) Please try to be succinct, especially when you aren’t interacting with the content of the post.
Go watch the interview on CNN with Imam that was on Larry King last night and make your own mind up.I’m opposed to the location of the Park 51 and think Andy from Brooklyn hit the nail on the head in his discussion with Anderson Cooper.We are a tolerant nation and respect all religions and denominations under the First Amendment.All Voices Count In America and “we” is supporting 70% of Americans that oppose this location and Iman made no mention in his discussion last night to move to another location.In fact inferenced, if he did this could cause a national security concern and to me as a citizen it came off threatening and didn’t appreciate it.You follow Jesus Christ in your heart ,not because of a particular religion or denomination and we all have the freedom to make that choice in America.The hypothetical future threats didn’t come from me but see the interview and the threats were communicated by Imam. Don’t care to interact with your posts further and you seem a bit defensive and ready to accuse and defend rather than discuss various other view points on the topic of building a Cordoba Islamic Center of which identifies with 70 % of Americans that are opposed. Clearly you missed seeing Imam being interviewed for an update and the securty alert flashes on CNN currently being shown on this over-all topic of discussion in view of the controversy this is causing across the US on a national level.What’s politically correct about any of this happening to begin with to cause so much up roar and controversy ? It’s wrong reguardless of what religion they,we or 71% of US citizens of which individually have the freedom to decide and exercise their First Amendment Constitutional rights to oppose.Maybe you didn’t hear the General in Afghan either or if you did didn’t pay much attention and he is also concerned with threats and our US troops. Don’t be so closed minded to a cause and you’re own fight that you miss the ball swinging.
I am neither accusing or defending, I am asking questions, in part because your position is unclear to me. For instance, you seem to me to go back and forth between Cordoba House and Terry Jones. Has General Petraeus or any other general in Afghanistan said anything about Cordoba House? Did CNN display security alerts relating to Cordoba House?
Thanks for pointing out the Larry King interview, which I hadn’t heard about. Obviously that answers my question about “threats that haven’t been made,” and I apologize for my needling follow-up question on that point. I agree with you that Rauf’s claim that moving the site would inflame radicals is deeply problematic, on several levels. It comes dangerously close to a subtle form of terrorism in itself, threatening others with violence against innocents in order to achieve one’s own ends.
On other fronts, it’s interesting that Rauf says had he known the controversy this would cause, he would have gone elsewhere. I think he is sincere about that. BTW, when O’Brien asks him whether he might move, he says “Nothing is off the table.” I’d say that’s a pretty strong hint that he’s at least open to the possibility of moving. Also, I see Rauf unequivocally condemns Hamas on television. Will his critics continue to repeat that he refuses to do so?
The WSJ’s James Taranto draws our attention to this Rauf Inteview:
But, capping a daylong rhetorical offensive that began Wednesday morning with an opinion piece in The New York Times, Rauf said he intends to go ahead with the “multifaith” center near the site where Islamic terrorists killed nearly 2,800 people because not doing so would unleash fury abroad.
“If we move from that location, the story will be that the radicals have taken over the discourse,” Rauf told CNN. “The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack.
“...[I]f we don’t do this right, anger will explode in the Muslim world. If we don’t do things correctly, this crisis could become much bigger than the Danish cartoon crisis [over images depicting the Prophet Mohammed], which resulted in attacks on Danish embassies in various parts of the Muslim world. And we have a much bigger footprint in the Muslim world.”
Which indicates that Rauf’s sales pitch for Park51 has become that of a protection racket: let us build it or we can’t be responsible for what the reaction of the Muslim world will be.
Actually, Victor, “Peace” drew our attention that interview. Here’s the transcript.
I agree, there’s that, as I noted in my last comment—though Rauf’s complete message seems to me more complex than that.
Right now I suspect that Rauf would like to move the site—but he also needs to save face and not look like he’s caving to anti-Islamic assaults. Actually, the most vociferous anti-Cordoba voices are making it harder for him to move. That idiot in Florida has probably made it dang near impossible with his stupid “Qur’ans for Park51” prisoner exchange proposal. It would be a lot easier for him to move if everyone were as reasonable as I am. :-D
It would be a lot easier for him to move if everyone were as reasonable as I am. :-D
Me too! But I’m still holding out that I gain access to a huge, alien flying saucer with down-firing disintegration ray, here, at some point (Roland Emmerich OWES ME, man!). I could solve a LOT of the world’s problems with that (e.g. Rauf could go a head and build his whatever-it-is-don’t-call-it-a-mosque wherever he wanted to :-) ).
When you are working with Muslums, you must understand their culture. You can not put your values into their hearts and heads, and assume they think the way Americans do. This has nothing to do with Religious freedom. It is political - see #1.
1. The name “Cordoba” has significant historical meaning to radical Muslums. It denotes victory over Christians. (When they destroyed a Christian Church, and built a Mosque over it.
2. The Quoran tells followers to covert the World - by force if necessary.
3. Many Muslim Countries put people to death for converting out of the Muslim Faith, and imprison anyone who tries to convert Muslims.
4. Follow the money (as always), and don’t be surprised if a foreign Country is not involved.
No, it doesn’t. It denotes how—in the words of the Old Catholic Encyclopedia—“Christians and Arabs co-operated at this time to make Cordova a flourishing city, the elegant refinement of which was unequalled in Europe,” and how “citizens of Cordova, Arabs, Christians, and Jews, enjoyed so high a degree of literary culture that the city was known as the New Athens.” The Cordoba name controversy is overhyped.
True, although AFAIK we don’t how how the church was destroyed. Anyway, when Christians regained control of Cordoba they turned the mosque into a cathedral, which it remains to this day. It’s a common sort of move.
Ah, but as you yourself noted in your article, the ‘peaceful’ period was only possible because the conquered acceded to Muslim demands - and it ended in a fierce persecution of Christians. I can undestand why the Imam picked the name, but I can only understand why a lot of people find it less than reassuring.
I want to stress here that I don’t hate anyone. We are all children of God, but most who say they believe in God won’t inherit the promise. (Even the Devil believes and trembles.) What is the promise? The promise is eternal life, the free gift of God, guaranteed to all that call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and except Him as their personal Lord and Savior. It is my heartfelt desire that all people join me in Heaven. For that to happen, the truth must be told. Islam is destroying souls every day. And the media and politicians are willfully ignorant of the threat that Islam poses. They are unwilling to believe that Islam is not a peaceful religion. Mohammed’s own words condemn Islam. If you have a desire to know the truth and want others to know it too, then please, go to your local library or bookstore and check out these two books. They are the best exposé’s of Islam that I have been able to find. God bless you and yours.
PROPHET OF DOOM
By Craig Winn
PREACHERS OF HATE
By Kenneth R Timmerman
You absolutely must read these books if you want to know the real truth about Islam
Quite frankly, I’m tierd of this talk of radical Islam. According to the Qur’an, and related commentaries, which are called “scripture”, there are only two kinds of Moslem. Good Moslems, who participate in Jihad, and hypocrites, who don’t. And while good Moslems go to the !@#$% of Paradise, bad Moslems go to Hell with their Christian and Jewish friends.
That’s the words of Allah. Terrorists are NOT radical. They’re just good Moslems.
I apologize. I should have written brothel.
Jimmy: Your jaundiced perspective on Islam illustrates the dangers of relying on inflammatory negative sources like Craig Winn for information about something as difficult as religion. I’m familiar with Winn’s book. He’s a garden variety nut. I can get specific if you’d like. Timmerman is not a nut, but AFAIK his book doesn’t support the theological claims you’ve made (it’s not that sort of book), so I’m guessing you relied more on Winn and others like him.
SIR THOMAS MORE: What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
ROPER: I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
SIR THOMAS MOORE: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you—where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat?.... This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast—man’s laws, not God’s—and if you cut them down…d’you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.
On “our” Bible? Whose Bible would that be, Catholic or Protestant? Ever heard of “no religious test”?
Like they don’t do in all the Muslim countries where stoning is illegal? Look on the bright side, under sharia law at least the abortion holocaust would stop.
To prevent the mosque from being built,the simple solution is to kill a hog or pig on the site,let it bleed out and leave it to be found by the muslims.They will declare the site unholy and that should stop the building of the Mosque.This tactic worked for Gen. Pershing
The issue is not that muslims are building another mosque on American soil. That’s not the problem because there are millions of mosques in America. The problem is that they’re building one near Ground Zero. Why are people being so pig headed about this anyway? There are so many places where mosques can be built in the U.S without any problem,but they want to build it near Ground Zero, that is a little suspicious. The families of the victims think this is a slap to their face. The only thing they ask is for the mosque to be moved a few blocks away that’s not too much to ask.Why can’t we obey this one request of the victims’ families? It’s not like they’re saying no mosque can be built in the U.S at all. And it’s even more suspicious that a mosque is being built here right on the anniversary of Sept.11. Think of it from an America’s p.o.v. How unfair is that? It’s an insult to the victims. I don’t think this is making relations between muslims and Americans or non-muslims any better like muslims think because many people whether Christian,Hindu,Buddhist,etc are apalled and angry because they lost family members in 9/11 and then a mosque is built right there. So how is that making relations any better? It’s just making it worse. The terrorists that flew into the World Trade Center were not Christians,Hindus,Buddhists,Jews,they were MUSLIMS! That is enough for me to say no a mosque does not need to be built near Ground Zero. And if you want more there is more.Osama Bin Laden calls himself a “true muslim.” He said the quran inspired him to commit terrorist acts. Islam,a religion that supports terrorism,oppression of women,and sharia law does not need to be in a secular,democratic country like this.And through out history muslims have built mosques on lands they have occupied and conquered. Put 2 and 2 together and you’ll get why muslims want to build a mosque here after 9/11. It is their way of saying, “look we won.”
Not Impressed: Let’s be careful about speaking for “the families of the victims.” Not all of them feel the same way. Some of them resent other people speaking for them or co-opting their bereavement for a political cause they may or may not agree with.
Nothing is being built right now (on the anniversary), and the project has been in the works for a long time. So the fact that the anniversary has rolled around on schedule does not mean anyone is being insensitive, except maybe Father Time.
You say “think of it from an America[n?]‘s point of view.” Americans are the ones planning this project. You talk about “relations between muslims and Americans or non-muslims” as if “Muslims” and “Americans” were mutually exclusive classes, as if “American” meant “Christian.”
The idea that Rauf, who condemns terror, wants to build this center to say “Look we won” may be intuitively appealing to those who don’t know enough about him, but as Christians we are bound by the eighth commandment. Unless you have evidence of what you are saying, you are bearing false witness against your neighbor.
Mr. Graydanus: If you are as familiar with Mr. Winn’s book as you claim, I would love to hear some specifics. Theology aside, I don’t know how anyone who has studied the Qur’an (and related materials) can support Islam. Just because millions of people believe in a book’s claim of holiness, does not make it so. You seem to forget that Muhammed himself said “War is deceit”. The Prophet said that a good muslim is one who wages war in Allah’s cause. One “specific” states that “bad” Muslims will go to the same hell that we Christians and our brethren the Jews are destined for. Another says that an agreement with Infidels is not binding for a Muslim.
The real danger with the mosque is the same danger we face with any “good muslim”. It would be simple to build a “dirty bomb” in the basement. Just think of the possibility of a giant suicide bomber standing in the middle of New York. They blew up the World Trade Center twice already. Will we now let them have a third go at it?
@Jimmy: I didn’t specify any particular degree of familiarity; my familiarity is only glancing, not profound. But I’m happy to oblige with a few specifics.
The easiest things for me to critique are where Winn is talking about things I know best. For example, there are the points of contact with anti-Catholic claptrap. Winn buys into the “Mystery Babylon Religion” nonsense that even Ralph Woodrow, author of Babylon Mystery Religion, has repudiated.
Then there’s his Illuminati conspiracy theory nonsense. Apparently Winn believes in the all-powerful Illuminati of conspiracy-theory paranoia, as opposed to the historical Illuminati, which was a short-lived secret society in the 18th century. Winn apparently connects both Marx and Nietzche to the Illuminati. Again, this is claptrap.
Example:
I don’t know whether you, Jimmy, are Catholic or Protestant, or how familiar you are with the Babylon mystery religion fallacy, but it’s sheer nonsense historically.
Winn makes sloppy mistakes. He says that the Hebrew word for “day” doesn’t appear in the text of Genesis 1. It does. In fact, it says very emphatically “evening and morning, one day [yom],” etc.
Then there’s the hostility of Winn’s reading of the Quran, which constitutes a blatant double standard compared to his reading of the Bible. To give one example out of a million, from various names of Allah in the Quran he detects originally separate gods, precisely as source critics do with the Bible vis-a-vis YHWH, Adonai, El-Elyon and so forth. Critically speaking there is no reason to reject this methodology with to the Bible but apply it to the Quran. Of course Winn might say that the Bible actually is the Word of God and the Quran isn’t. True. But that’s a faith claim, not an argument.
P.S. Among the many problems with your “dirty bomb” fears in regard to Cordoba House, (a) government surveillance is a way of life in contemporary mosque culture; (b) given Rauf’s government ties and the controversy, that will probably be doubly so here; and (c) there are already lots of mosques “in the middle of New York.” Do you want to bar Muslims as a class from First Amendment protection?
“Jimmy: Your jaundiced perspective on Islam illustrates the dangers of relying on inflammatory negative sources like Craig Winn for information about something as difficult as religion.”
I don’t have a problem with the religious side of Islam. If they need to fast every day for a month, that is their problem. If Muslims need to pray 5 times a day, that is their lookout. My problem is with Islamic law. Islamic law has been and is being enforced in many parts of the world today. This law is hostile to just about everything that I stand for as an American.
Another way of looking at it: The Pope can’t enforce the Catholic Churchs’ prohibition on abortion. Islamic law has people stoned to death.
Want to start a war? Give priests the authority to field their own militias. This was how armies were fielded back before the rise of the modern nation-state. Islam is still doing it. The authority for this originates in the Koran. Islam was designed as a government, complete with a legal system, a foreign policy and an economic policy. It fields it’s own armies and defends it’s ‘occupied’ land and ‘waters’.
The idea of Muslim ‘waters’ is alve and well. That statement in 2008 by the immams in Istanbul spoke of the Israeli blockade as being illegal because it is operating in Muslim ‘waters’. They spoke of the “Nation of Islam” as a government.
Remember the Barbary pirates? The Mediterranean was considered to be “Muslim waters”. Our ships were passing through and we owed them money. This was an extention of the concept of Islamic Tribute.
Tribute is payment of a ‘poll tax’ by non-Muslims to Muslim authorities to be allowed to live in Islamic controlled land. This payment exempts them from military service. Taxation and conscription are two functions of a modern government.
These are only some of the issues that I have found that will cause open warfare. The U.S. Civil War was fought to get rid of slavery. (And to defend slavery) All it takes is one good issue to cause a war like the U.S. Civil War. I have identified 7 issues of this type concerning Islamic governance. Now wonder wars are all over the world where Islam is attempting to establish its legal system.
This is not a “Jaundiced” point of view. It is human nature.
Thank you Joe Six-Pack. Per: “Your jaundiced perspective on Islam illustrates the dangers of relying on inflammatory negative sources like Craig Winn for information about something as difficult as religion. I’m familiar with Winn’s book. He’s a garden variety nut. I can get specific if you’d like. Timmerman is not a nut, but AFAIK his book doesn’t support the theological claims you’ve made (it’s not that sort of book), so I’m guessing you relied more on Winn and others like him.”
Your lack of familiarity with either of the tomes I suggested is as glaring as your lack of real knowledge of Islam or Catholicism. I’m disappointed in that I foolishly thought I could have a meaningful and enlightening exchange of ideas with an intelligent, thoughtful, and well read individual. The “specifics” I requested were supposed to relate to Islam. Obviously, you know very little about Islam. Mr. Timmerman does absolutely support the theological view that is exposed in Mr. Winn’s book, which you would know if you had read any of it. And I take exception to your reference to Mr.Winn as a “garden variety nut”. There is nothing “garden variety” about him. I’ve read hundreds of books on religion, some by authors that I often thought, quite frankly, were “nutcases” and a-holes. But you are a first, Greydanus. His book is as accurate and well written as any I have ever read. In my reading over the last forty years, I have been able to glean the small kernels of truth from the great, steaming piles of lies. I tried to find a book to quote that was worthy of your intelligence, unfortunately they all had words. And for you to assume that I’m some kind of dumb hillbilly, who takes a single individual’s writings and builds a philosophy on it, shows elitism. I’m much more intelligent than the average hillbilly. Your verbosity on a subject you obviously know very little about, and your tendency to be condescending and disrespectful of your audience, brands you a liberal, and therefore below my notice. It is my opinion that most liberals don’t really believe in God. If you don’t believe in God, you’ll believe in anything. Ignorance is just lack of knowledge and forgivable. Willful ignorance is stupidity, and I have no time for stupidity. I had hoped to find an intellectual discussion with a knowledgeable host, but it just goes to show, they’ll let anyone have a blogsite.
Per: “Of course Winn might say that the Bible actually is the Word of God and the Quran isn’t. True. But that’s a faith claim, not an argument.”
You’re right there, no argument! You agree with me and Mr. Winn when you say the Qur’an is not the word of God. If that is true, then Islam is an invention of a man and, therefore, a false religion. No false religion is true. That which is not true is a lie. The devil is a liar and the father of lies. Therefore, Islam is of the devil. Why do you act the apologist for a religion that is diametrically opposed to your own?
Per: “I don’t know whether you, Jimmy, are Catholic or Protestant, or how familiar you are with the Babylon mystery religion fallacy, but it’s sheer nonsense historically.”
More verbosity here. I started out reading about mythology as a teenager. I went on to study religions and their differences. For it to make sense to me, I also had to make a study of history, because in those days I was an atheist. I wanted to understand. So I am not in the habit of taking the first words offered to me on a subject as gospel truth just because I like the way the words sound. And you don’t have a very strong grasp on history either. Please be so kind as to inform us when and how the Catholic Church actually came up with; Christmas, Easter, Lent, the Pope, the priesthood, confession, last rites, praying to saints, and the worship of the Virgin Mary. Not to mention the Inquisition. I am neither Protestant nor Catholic, but I am a Bible thumpin’, holy-rollin’, free thinkin’, non-denominational, radical Christian, and I have never found any of that “claptrap” in the Bible. I would love some specifics.
Per: “The idea that Rauf, who condemns terror, wants to build this center to say “Look we won” may be intuitively appealing to those who don’t know enough about him, but as Christians we are bound by the eighth commandment. Unless you have evidence of what you are saying, you are bearing false witness against your neighbor.”
Wrong again. Raufy boy would not condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization. And because he is a good Muslim, I would not believe those were his feelings if he did. As a Muslim, Imam Rauf is not bound by any of the Ten Commandments. Remember, “war is deceit” said the Prophet. And the “Dome of the Rock” in Jerusalem is meant to say, “look, we won”. Same with Hagia Sophia. I would suggest that you write from now on only about things that you know something about. But if you took my suggestion, you’d have to stop writing and start studying. Step out of your comfort zone. Writing what you have heard others say is not the same as writing what you know to be true. And being afraid of the truth is no excuse.
Remember in your study of Revelations, ...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus…(Rev.20:4). Can you name another “religion” that beheads (decapitates) their enemies. You, muslims and non-muslims need to know the truth, because the truth will set you free.
Jimmy:
1. The name of the book is Revelation, not Revelations. It’s a common mistake.
2. In fact Rauf has condemned Hamas for its acts of terrorism, more than once, most recently on Larry King Live, where he also said that he would reject donations from anyone who also gave money to Hamas.
3. In fact Muslims do acknowledge the moral precepts of the Ten Commandments. The exception is the Sabbath, which they say (rightly) was for the Jewish people, and the principle of which they transfer to Friday, as Christians do to Sunday.
4. If Winn is obviously unreliable regarding even his own scriptures and Christian history, to say nothing of secular history (Illuminati wackiness), why should he be trusted with the scriptures and history of a religious tradition he obviously despises?
5. You say you don’t find the papacy, the priesthood, Easter and Christmas, etc. in the Bible. However, the question before us is not “Is there any biblical basis for these things?” but “Is there any historical basis for saying they come from ancient Babylon?” A negative answer to the first does not imply a positive answer to the second. Can you handle the truth?
6. “Why do you act the apologist for a religion that is diametrically opposed to your own?” Among other things I could say, God is truth, and we cannot serve the God of truth by attacking the Devil’s lies with falsehoods of our own. Isn’t that a good enough reason?
7. Your last three sentences are words I live by. Our methods might be somewhat different though. When I was a free-thinking Bible-thumping Christian and wanted to know what Catholics believed, I didn’t just read fulminating anti-Catholics like Loraine Boettner (though I read them too), I also read actual Catholics. Same with Muslims. I consider it an important part of stepping outside my comfort zone and not being afraid of the truth. How many good Catholic writers have you read in any detail? How many Muslim writers? Which ones?
Last Sunday Imam Rauf was interviewed by 60 min. He says,If there is another 911 I hope to be the first to die.Thought his communications were better and not so veiled threat questionable sounding. Really trying to be fair but skeptical and untrusting of intentions and why there ? Do think Americans are tolerant and there are over 200 Islamic Mosques in New York and do not object. However, the more ya research about associations and connections the more questions of Imam Rauf’s and Gamel that the national media isn’t getting answered.There is a National Security Assessment Examination on Sharriah to America. It’s a 177 page report prepared by Team B 11. Who is that ? A few members include Trent Franks R-AZ,Pete Hoekstra R MI and Lieutenant General William G “Jerry” Boykin and finally Frank Gaffney.Haven’t read it yet and still looking for it. Gaffney wrote,“Can This Possibly Be True.” This particular article deals with national security and Obama’s policies. This article states Obama cut over a million dollars to missle defense Agency’s budget. He cancelled the deployment of interceptors and radars in Eastern Europe designed to defend this country as well as allies over there. Why ? The article also explains a new Missile Defense logo that Obama’s administration changed. How much was that to change and why would they to begin with ? There is question on this logo and see what you think when you compare the old with the new. Not sure I understand what someone by the name of Logan is trying to point out inquestion of this logo changed.Americans are not sheep that follow and want answers about what’s going on with our American Citizen National Security.Where did Gamel get the 4.8 million ? Mr. Imam Rauf responded by saying on 60 min from our community.Okay and let’s see the list of names and we’ll hand it to the FBI,CIA and Homeland Security and if they’re cool with it, as an American I will be.What is the CAIR organization ? Manhattan Transfers…“Operator”, information… find the Mosque a new location.Keep the faith !
I do not want this to happen in our country. You cannot tell who is a real american and who is a muslim, i dont trust any of them, i believe they are laughing at us, and how giving we are to other countries, I believe we should stop letting foreigners in and start concentrating on our own legalized people.
Kathy: Millions of “real Americans” ARE Muslims.
“Not so veiled threat”? Good grief. This seems really hostile and unwarranted.
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