For some reason, I now have Pat Benatar’s “Love is a Battlefield” in my head.  Does this count as being wounded by a woman?

Frickin awesome.

This just seems to be pointing the finger the other way…women are the problem?  I think it’s more like this: We are ALL flawed.  Neither men nor women escape the imperfections and faults that make us who we are.  I appreciate your standing up for men, Mrs. FIsher, but I think you went to the other extreme.

Awesome, as always. Men and women need to respect each other and get their respective chips off their shoulders.  It is all about affirmation…love…and Jesus Christ.  Each one leads to the other..God Bless you Simcha for getting to the heart of things so well.

Simcha, I believe this is the best essay you’ve ever written, and I have admired so many of your pieces.  I will forward this roundly, but it really belongs in the NY Times.  The NYT editors, male or female, do not have the courage to allow these truths to be revealed, sadly.
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You weave scripture, anthropology and good old common sense so artfully - your college should be commended.  I would hope that many parents who read this will seek out authentic liberal arts schools for their children, and forego the empty, thin programs (and liberal indoctrination) so prevalent in colleges today.  I am a Harvard grad, and I am so embarrassed and ashamed of my alma mater.  Profs like Elizabeth Warren, ‘Skippy’ Gates and Alan Dershowitz have sullied the place, and prominent alums like Barney Frank and the Obamas show how far down in esteem the institution has fallen.

No, not all women are the battlefield. American women are raised to be lazy and selfish. It’s called empowerment or finding/fulfilling yourself or girl power. Some parents, some sub culutres, and some individual women reject that. We are not all messed up.

Another well written insight from Simcha.

On a slightly related note, I find there’s a lot of mild sexist language being used at my workplace on a regular basis, against men. I work in a predominantly female environment (Catholic school) and as the only male teacher I try to ignore the staff room chatter because, if I’m truly honest about it, it’s slowly nibbling away at my self-esteem. Phrases like “typical men”; “that’s men for you”; “it’s because he’s a man” etc. are commonplace in the gossip and said by perfectly pleasant and decent women. It’s not, as far as I’m aware, ever been directed toward me, but I’d be surprised if it hadn’t. I recently had a mother of a pupil tell me that I’d put “too much weight on” and this could be solved with “more sex”. I’m fairly certain that it wouldn’t be socially acceptable if a man had said this to a female member of staff, but personal comments like this are somehow more tolerable when directed toward men. Equality should be about men respecting women, women respecting men, men respecting men and women respecting women, but it seems that culture accepts a certain amount of bias. I feel almost apologetic about my gender sometimes, but I shouldn’t have to. My greatest concern is that in the context of a school, this (mild) negativity toward men may have some impact on the children, boys and girls, many of whom already have a negative experience of men.  Just a thought.

Stepping outside the values/morality issues,legit as they are, I think there’s a huge money trail leading to the sexualization of popular culture.It sells, & we’ve been buying it for some time.So have our kids.

I’m with Tim in Cleveland… I can’t get Love is a Battlefield out of my head. But seriously, this is great stuff. Our society is lacking so much in mutual respect.

@Catherine S.: Is this post really “the other extreme”? Or is taking time away from feminine gripes to think about what men might be going through so uncomfortable that it just makes it feel like this post is “extreme”?

I completely relate to feeling imperious when I have to get a basic need met, something that just comes naturally to my husband. I always thought it was because my mom raised her daughters to be martyrs and his dad is a selfish alcoholic, but it actually makes more sense that it’s in women’s very natures to feel bad about self care and in our husbands’ natures to understand that it’s okay to rest, ask for help, and turn down excessive demands from others.
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Our whole species relies on women undergoing a lengthy, difficult, and uncomfortable pregnancy, followed by a painful birth, followed by months of feeding a baby from our very bodies, at all hours of the day. There are so many times when, why of course! women have to let their bodies be the battlefield.
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On the other hand, Men are built to support their families by working in the world, and they naturally are more capable of turning down excessive requests, as they come from non-family and would quickly destroy a man if he tried to meet all the needs sent his way. A woman can’t turn down the demands from her offspring (at least initially) without dire consequences. It’s hard to be one thing at home and another outside the home.

@Catherine S.: she didn’t say women are the problem, she said they’re the battleground.  The fight of good vs. evil always comes back in some way to women because of that central importance of bringing and nurturing life.  The distraction from the real battle is to blame either women or men.
@daisy, yes.  That’s all part of the battle over women.

I love this. The book “Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman’s Soul” talks about how Satan began his attack on humanity with Eve. She was the crowning achievement of Creation, she embodied the nurturing love of God, and was given the amazing gift of being able to bear children herself. And Satan hated that. So he began his attack on femininity and it’s a war that has raged ever since. Even the terrible erosion of masculinity seems to come OUT OF the loss of femininity, which in turn, further strains and tears down what women are supposed to be.  The problem is cyclical and so it cannot be the responsibility of one gender or the other to fix it; we BOTH have to start now. Not by complaining how hard the other is making it for us, but by striving to inject a little masculinity or femininity into our every-day words and actions.

I think you’re ignoring a major problem here. It’s not that there aren’t men with legitimate gripes; there are. The problem is that it’s good Catholic women who are already doing their best who are on the receiving end of these men’s angry outbursts. There is an overwhelming amount of guilt placed on the heads of women who haven’t done any of the things that those men are bitter about. And this doesn’t happen the other way around. I don’t see hoards of Catholic women who are constantly criticizing men over small and trivial things. I DO see Catholic women saying, “STOP,” out of sheer self-defense, but mostly I see women who would like to get married and instead face constant scrutiny and criticism from Catholic men. If those men are hurt and in pain, they need to find some way of dealing with it besides taking out their anger on women. It’s not our job out of compassion to be their punching bag. They should pray, talk to a priest, get therapy, something. But stop expecting us to pay for their pain.

As far as modesty goes, St. Paul says it’s better to marry than to burn. The reason why modesty debates go in circles forever is because it’s an incorrect solution to a real problem. Those men should stop lecturing women on how to dress, and focus on figuring out if their vocation is marriage and if so how to best prepare for it. Not my advice. St. Paul’s. He didn’t say, “It’s better not to get married if you can’t find a girl who won’t wear a bathing suit in public.” Or, “It’s better to lecture women on modesty than to marry.” He said, “It’s better to marry than to burn.”

I think this is a different take on the issue, but I think it lacks a little. Humanity is the battlefield. It started with the Garden. Our nature is broken to the very depths of our souls. Our passions are inflamed, our reason is clouded and our will is baffled by the situations and choices that come our way.

Whether it’s men or women, we both choose to not be hurt more than to sacrifice. That’s why Christ says so often throughout the Gospels that we must die to ourselves; that we must come after him; that we must pick up our crosses.

It always starts with our next choice. Will we offer our selves as possible immolation for society, for our co-workers, for our families, or for the person next to us in the store? Will we sacrifice our comfort to offer a compliment to someone even though they didn’t seem to notice you and might look at you funny? Or maybe dress in a way that speaks to the dignity of your stature as a Child of God, despite the chance that someone might think you just don’t get how to be fashionable.

It might turn out that when we give each other a chance, when we start with grace and courtesy, that we may find it in return from the face looking back at us.

It’s not about who is the battlefield. It’s not about which gender or group deserves more attention. It’s about looking around and seeing your neighbor and reaching out to them to show God’s love in some small way.

We are all a battlefields and everyday we go off to war. Should I fight for myself or should I fight for us?

Anna, I think you have got it exactly right! The enemy does his best work by drawing us off the mark with distractions. I also think this is about the battle of good vs. evil with women as the battlefield.

I think a couple people are mistaking “battlefield” for “enemy”. To say that “women are the battlefield” is not to say one or the other sex is at fault. She is saying that the battle for our culture in intrinsically connected to women.

There is an interpretation of the fall that I love. In it man is told to “till and keep” the garden - implying he is to protect it. When the snake enters man has failed to protect, to lay down his life to save the garden. Then woman steps in to protect her man so he doesn’t have to die and she confronts the serpent. This is a role she is not meant to have. Christ’s death on the cross undoes the death in the garden, by choosing to die for his bride. Mary’s presence at the foot of the cross undoes the disobedience of Eve, by choosing to allow her Son to die.

We must relearn our roles, men must learn to die and women must learn to allow others to die for them. Or to put another way, men must learn how to give their lives and women must learn how to receive that gift.

Simcha, thank you very much for this post. Firstly, your apology is very appreciated. Why is it that those who have nothing to apologize for are the ones most willing to apologize? Mrs. Fisher, you did it right; you got married to a solid Catholic man, and the two of you clearly love one another enough, and share life’s tribulations well enough, that you are raising a large and joyful Catholic family. You apologize, but you’re not one of the women stoking the divorce rate, spending twice your husband’s take-home pay, publicly mocking your husband, and the only reason I can imagine you reading Cosmo is to mine comedic gold.
Your analogy of the returning veteran is quite apt, and I for one accept the thanks of a grateful nation of decent women. But once the parades are over and the ticker tape swept up, us walking wounded men of the gender wars go home not to one of those lovely supportive Catholic families, led by a radiant Catholic woman, but back to the battlefield to fight just to be a marginalized presence in our childrens’ lives, or end up homeless, huddling on an emotional sewer grate just for a little warmth.

Catharine S.: shut up. Shut up. When you read one of the endless spate of articles blaming men, have you ever, even once, complained of the unfair spotlight, and pontificated on your little “we’re all to blame” nostrum? Or have you blithely read through, perhaps with a self-satisfied stray thought wondering “when are these overgrown boys going to man up?” And your deceitful little distortion of Mrs. Fisher’s thesis from “women are the battlefield” into “women are the problem” is breathtaking in its duplicity. Let me explain simple logic with an analogy: the field of Waterloo was NOT the problem. The problem was that Napoleon and the French Army were there. Even though the battle of Waterloo was fought on the battlefield of Waterloo, the battlefield was not the problem. All clear? Or will you persist on perverting a straightforward statement to feed your victimology?
(I know many in the studio audience are gasping at my rudeness right now. How many of you gasped at the falsities in her words?)

And something I forgot - this “learning to give and learning to receive” intrinsically happens INSIDE a woman’s body. So if Satan can twist how we view a woman’s body he’s won half the battle. Her body is the battlefield BECAUSE of the type of battle that is being fought and the nature of what it means to be a man or woman.

@Anna: exactly! I think Simcha needs to make a badge that flashes next to the comment box that says, “I work hard at saying exactly what I mean, and don’t have the responsibility to say things twice to people who aren’t listening anyway.” (which is from her post “What’s Your Apology Policy?” on 1/31/12, NCR)
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@Io: Were you reading on Tuesday? Did you see the “black smog” metaphor from HCSKnigh? This is exactly what I was trying to say to him! It is exhausting to have to put up with the tirades against us hussy women when we aren’t on that team! We are on the Catholic Team, trying to live our faith and we are just as offended by abortion and sexual immorality as the next rad trad male.
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@Steve: I see where you’re going with this, but I really think Simcha did nail it. Women are naturally inclined to give until they die because they forgot to feed themselves. I know a lot of really great guys, and every one of them needs to be prodded to “see” all that still remains to be done in the house and with the children before bedtime. A lot of them will finish the tasks they have/were given, and then assume they are done. Every single time, they’re surprised when their exhausted wife still has a long list of errands, tasks, etc. to tackle before bed. “I thought you just said you wanted me to clean the kitchen?” “I wasn’t about to go through the whole list when you were going to need it repeated again between each task. Now, since we still need to fold 8 baskets of laundry, grocery shop, and wrap Sarah’s gifts, WE are going to need to split that work.” Or the wife just stays up late and does all the work while her husband congratulates himself for “helping” around the house and goes to bed on time. This isn’t a big slam on men, but I really do think that they don’t struggle with this natural instinct to give until they’ve spent every drop like women do. (It goes without saying that there are exceptions to these observations: some women are lazy and some men do everything, etc. But in general, this is what I see play out in every family I know.)

My comment was to Steve L.
@Steve T: I’m not gasping!

Thank you, Simmy.  And, you’re welcome.

Steve, you really helped me understand this much better, thanks!

I think this discussion has split into two factions, because it seems to me that there are two entirely separate discussions going on here:  one group perceives the spiritual meaning of the topic and is commenting on that aspect.  The other group perceives the more earthly issues of the topic and are commenting from that perspective.  Maybe at some point these two perspectives will converge? 

I love the discussion because it is providing me with a lot of food for thought.

RE: Men don’t do enough/don’t realize how hard women work.

This is the same problem. Women see what needs to be done and will jump in and do it, even if it’s another’s job. “If I don’t do this myself it’ll never get done.” “If you want anything done right don’t give it to a man to do.”

This is where women fell. “Oh Adam isn’t defending the garden properly, I’ll just have to do something about this nasty serpent.” How often do we see someone else doing something and think “I could do that better.” or “if I were suffering in that way I would be handling it so much better.” We must learn to receive the IMPERFECT gifts of others, graciously and lovingly. I can’t speak for a man, I just know where God is calling me to change.

@MightyMight: believe me, men have the instinct to spend every drop of themselves on their families; what you are actually pointing at is the reality that men and women have different standards on cleanliness and order. Men often don’t care whether clothes are folded, as long as they’re clean and don’t smell. Men often don’t feel the urgency of wrapping gifts; will it really make a difference in Sarah’s appreciation of the gift we’re giving her if she spends an extra second ripping colorful paper off it?

Meanwhile, to use myself as an example, to ensure that my wife could be a stay-at-home mother and my children grow up in a wholesome environment, I commuted six hours a day to a demanding job. And my then mother-in-law took me aside and lashed me for sleeping in on Saturdays, and had the temerity to say that in her marriage, “everyone pulled their weight.” Right. I made all the money, but I wasn’t pulling my weight.

@Lady Cygnus: Agreed, but the issue isn’t just that women need to let men lead. Part of the fall was that Adam was NOT defending the garden well enough, and then he blamed his wife for the whole thing. This is part of our fallen nature. Women want to take it all on and men wait until their responsibilities smack them between the eyes. And the fact is, hungry babies and naked children can’t wait until Dad decides, of his own accord, to start seeing the real needs of his family. Mom plays an important role, and part of that is in bringing things to his attention. (I’m not talking about nagging.) My husband *literally* cannot see anything that is not in plain sight in the fridge. We routinely have three open jars of mayonaise at any given moment because he is unable to look at the stuff in the door, move the bread over, etc. (and he likes to put things back wherever, so my efforts to just keep things in one place fail). Is this because I’ve done something? Or because he doesn’t compute that he should put in a solid 10 second effort to find something before just opening up another perishable jar of food? “It’s behind the mayo” has become a family refrain when people can’t find something in our house. :)

@Io: “I don’t see hoards of Catholic women who are constantly criticizing men over small and trivial things.”

In what blessed alternate reality do you live…and do you think I could find a job and a place to live there?

Hey again Fish

First off, sorry about the polemical nature of my previous post. My style tends to be inadvertently blunt and careless. However, regarding the panorama of Puritan apologia, all that stuff was more in response to some other comments and not necessarily your article itself. The reality is I think your articles are usually thought provoking, and I follow controversy like white on rice so there’s the deal. The real reason I’m here isn’t to disparage, but I don’t mind a couple boxing gloves every once in a while. I hope that can be forgiven somehow. I don’t know. I’ll just bank on it, and how’s that for a… compromise? :P

Anyway, now that the mushy stuff is mushed, to this article…

Not to play devil’s advocate or anything, but a little two cents about males being “wounded, scorned, castigated and ruined by women” - I appreciate the recognition and apology on the behalf of your gender, but I’d also like to add that often men bring this on themselves. I mean hey, you were mentioning some fatherless chaps (“But . . . what about the men?  What about the boys growing up with no father?”) and stuff like that. This gives me a green light to speak because I’m one of those fellas, and I’m also one of those fellas who in the past has been “wounded, scorned…” etc by females. Thus, I am not speaking from the comfortable perspective of a man with a great two parent family and great wonderful and blithely easy-going life, talking down to the little guy who’s been copped out of a father and feelings of congruity with humanity. So when I speak I don’t do so without the experience of those masculinity-challenging elements outside of a man’s control. Now that I got that out of the way…

To be honest, a lot of time this stuff constitutes a lot of bologna. That is, the reality of those of us men who gripe about this constitutes bologna, not your comments necessarily. Your comments reflect a very real, well, reality. The reason I say this is because honestly men who have had similar paths as me simply have to man up and that’s all there is to it. It’s about as complicated as a one square hopscotch. We waste a lot of time trying to endure sophisticated answers and ways to improve stuff and such other abstractions. I understand much is expected of our gender but in reality much should be expected. We don’t bear children, we don’t endure menstrual cycles, and we were built for the challenge. We spend time stressing about the wrong women, and then we wonder why they treat us like muck. I mean hey, just throwing this out there, my life really started once I stopped with all that hogwash and just started “Godding it out” and saying look buddy, you feel ostracized, alone, and tense? Then stop bringing it upon yourself. Walk with God, bear your cross, and forget about it. When you feel lonely, endure it. Anyway, it’s the only way you’re going to be a solid enough man by the time you come into contact with a woman who is after the heart of God like you are. You should be secure by the time you meet her, and in my opinion if you find that security with the grace of God, you will not end up courting and marrying someone who never appreciates anything you do, or expects more and more out of you no matter how good of a Christian servant you’ve become. You will have eyes that see, and ears that hear.

The best Bible quote for men (with the exception of maybe Ephesians 5 where St. Paul exhorts us to love our wives):

“Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskilful words? Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me.”

(Job 38:1-3)

The solution to literally everything for a man is having this attitude about God. I mean that when I say literally everything. It’s painful at first because it doesn’t constitute immediate comfort, but as the old saying goes long term is the only term. The beauty about God is that He is the Objectivity of all objectivities, period. He has a law, and you either follow it and find life or defy it and find perdition. As a man, you either wage the war against your concupiscent desires and concessions to the distorted image of the modern male, or assimilate into the pool of testosteronic malfunction and malaise. You either start viewing women like the dignified creatures they are and go on with your life without getting lost in a deluge of hopeless romanticism, or you can continue to obsess over lost causes and then wonder why you feel ostracized, learning nothing and exercising futility.

We need to concentrate first on regaining proper Catholic masculinity. After that, nothing else will even matter. If and when a fantastic woman makes her way into our lives by the grace and providence of the ever-living God, we will be ready to bear the yoke of sacrificial love, imitating Christ’s crucifixion in the offering of ourselves, with our purity, to the dignity of marital love.

Not to close off with a letter from Captain Cynical, but this world and humanity in reality is nasty. For just one meager example, we live in a country where just a little less than a century ago two incinerating bombs were dropped on entire civilian populations women children and all, and the world just went on spinning, the war drums went crashing, and the people celebrated (had to squeeze in my anti-federalist, quasi-anarchist tendencies there, forgiveness petitioned). We live in a world where people rip each other apart. This is a dog eat dog world. All this altruism and stuff that we exercise as Christians is ripe material for the dogs. This is why we are always crucified to the world. Not to discourage that, I encourage it, but to just really be honest with ourselves about what the reality is. If we don’t learn how to be men and repel ourselves both body and spirit against the insanity that is this bloodletting world, then we’ve got another thing coming. Forgive the bluntness, but that is indeed the reality. Fathers or no fathers, we need to learn to father ourselves quick or else the quicksand rises and there’s nothing left to grab for. Just a couple words of potential wisdom (depends if anyone considers it wise and not just more Ryanian diatribe) from a fella who indeed had to father himself.

All that aside, thanks for the article and the apology for the chaos of your gender. The Lord knows there are a lot of apologies over here for the chaos of ours.

I can’t tell you how much I love this. Although I am unmarried I am an engineer by trade and when I was starting out the main opposition came from other women, female teachers, family and even my mother who were convinced that I was setting myself up for a lifetime of sexism. So I have to say after this I was very surprised to discover that the men I met in college and my classmates were all confident that I was just as able as them and I have never had any problem with sexism. To this day if I even try to defend my friends against claims that they are inherently more sexist and discriminatory than women I get told off. Double standards work both ways and I’m glad to see you call women out on our sins just as many people have done to men in the past. It’s just a shame this isn’t in a big national newspaper that would reach the people who need the reality check most.

Yes! This. From Io above:
“The problem is that it’s good Catholic women who are already doing their best who are on the receiving end of these men’s angry outbursts. There is an overwhelming amount of guilt placed on the heads of women who haven’t done any of the things that those men are bitter about.”
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Also, Lady Cygnus… you have caught me.  In fact, reading this article I thought to myself… see, if only there were a man out there enlightened enough to marry me - he would have an equal partner who doesn’t spurn him. But if all the men are dumb enough to marry the types of horrible women describe here… well, I guess it is my burden to be the ideal wife who doesn’t get to be a wife.
In short…. yes, I’m guilty of thinking I could do it better.
Ouch.

I think CatholicByChoice has it exactly right: “one group perceives the spiritual meaning of the topic and is commenting on that aspect.  The other group perceives the more earthly issues of the topic and are commenting from that perspective.”

OF COURSE, women and men are equally subject to the fall in our actions towards eachother. What I think Simcha is saying is that in OUR CULTURE, the way the fall is manifesting itself is through the battlefield of women, or what are called ‘women’s issues.’ In another time and another culture, the ramifications of the fall might look very (but not totally) different. I don’t know enough about Native American cultures to really speak on this, but think of those tribes who had matralineal structures. Certinaly the role of women and men was vastly different, yet of course they weren’t immune to original sin, just as we aren’t.

Many thanks Simcha. You are a champion.

Just WOW!

@Renae, don’t worry, I speak only from my own experience - most of those quotes were my own. My Dad left us for several years when my sisters and I were younger, we all grew up “doing for ourselves what men wouldn’t do.” To the point where my sisters and I loaded a riding lawnmower onto a pickup truck ourselves just to spite the men who walked over to help us…“they would have probably loaded it wrong anyway.”

@Mighty, Yea, I get the frustration. I’m not speaking as one who thinks men are going to suddenly step up to the plate and do everything I would like them to do. I’ve had too much hurt in my past to believe that. I’m speaking about what I can do to change my own behavior. I can’t make someone else a saint, but, by cooperating with God’s graces their may be hope for me yet. And perhaps if I can allow God to make me a saint others will follow along after.

Although, to be honest, part of me feels guilty because I’ve got several bottles of barbeque sauce in my fridge and cat food mess in the bathroom sink. My mom was always frustrated that my sisters and I inherited my dad’s sense of “clean”. :-/

Simcha, this is incredibly thought provoking. I deeply appreciate the insights here, as I’ve never read anything like this.

@Blog Goliard

Can you give an example of what you mean? Usually when men complain that women criticize them, in my experience, it involves women making reasonable demands like “I would like to marry a man who can support a family” or “I would like men to stop telling me what to wear.” I’m not terribly sympathetic to men who sees themselves as victims for being on the receiving end of remarks like this.

But if you’re talking about conservative Catholic women making different criticisms or demands which you find unreasonable, can you elaborate? I’m genuinely curious. Keep in mind I’m asking about Catholic women. Not feminists journalists who write for Slate or the NY Times.

Wow. I wish I could write like this. It really shifts perspective doesn’t it?

Wise words!

@Renae, once my canonical situation is cleared up, maybe we should talk.

A lovely homeschooling mother, on hearing of my impending divorce, took it on herself to dissuade me. I told her again and again that it wasn’t my idea, I didn’t want it, I hadn’t initiated it, I was willing to do anything to set things right, that it was entirely my wife’s idea, she served the papers, she was implacably set on divorcing me. Homeschool mom just couldn’t wrap her mind around the concept that a man could not be the one responsible for the divorce, and kept trying to convince me to call it off.

@Ryan: Wow!  Loved your comment.  I think you’re spot on.  God bless you.

@Steve T., That’s terrible! Commuting six hours a day would be a nightmare, let alone to have someone give you a hard time for trying to catch a break once a week. I can see how you MIL would look at her daughter being home alone with the kids all day for 14-15 hours five days a week and think that she needs a break too—but isn’t that what grandparents are for? :)Maybe your MIL should have come over and given both of you a break on Saturday morning! It’s great that you were so heroic in your efforts to provide for your kin.
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I totally agree that men and women do have different standards of cleanliness, but some of what I see really does fall straight in line with men not “seeing” what needs to be done, or in toxic relationships, ignoring what needs to be done. Not wrapping a kid’s presents, in our culture, will make that kid think you didn’t care (similar to giving someone cash in odd increments in a card…here’s $47…). Leaving 8 loads of laundry unfolded is going to make it difficult to quickly change a poopy onesie. It’s not really fair to act like putting things away is just a feminine preference. It’s very practical and it takes work which is sometimes simply too much for one person to do alone.
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I’ve noticed that the happier couples and especially the longer married ones have largely moved to a stage where the husband knows what to do and doesn’t punish his wife with resentment because he has to do “women’s work” or “babysit” the kids. The least happy marriages seem to be the ones where he feels entitled to relax because he “worked all day” and she needs help but is afraid of what he’ll do to train her to leave him alone (i.e. doing a half-ass job, procrastinating, taking far longer than necessary so he isn’t available for other tasks, sighing, mumbling, eye-rolling, etc.). It’s almost better when she’s a nag or a shrew, rather than accepting of his indirect bullying, since at least the kids don’t actually think that dads are exempt from helping, as was the case with my alcoholic FIL and long-suffering MIL.

@Io: how about the smug assurance that men are complete morons when it comes to child care? How about when a man falls to perform a task in precisely the same fashion as the woman, and falling to achieve * exactly * identical results, being treated as verging on child abuse, such as not braiding his daughters’ hair as tightly as their mother would7 How about when the man, the sole breadwinner for the family, is lambasted for not doing an equal share of the housework as his stay-at-home wife?

“Men are men; but Man is a woman.” —GKC

For those of us interested in the spiritual interpretation of “Women are the Battlefield” upon which the war of Good vs. Evil is being waged, would you care to discuss which side you think is “winning?”  I think the feminist movement was a major “win” for the enemy, and I think the enemy’s most potent battlefield cry is:  “Nobody can tell a woman what to do with her own body.”  I have unfortunately witnessed even a Priest parrot that response to a group of people in a discussion about contraceptives, in order to avoid bringing down any potential wrath of womankind on his head. (By the way, I am a woman myself in case that matters:)

@CatholicByChoice - that’s easy, God is winning. The devil may win a battle or two, but all of history is just the story of God’s triumph over the grave.

I’m another man feeling that more and more is being demanded of me, when I’ve given until I’m as empty as an inside-out trouser pocket.  (That’s my perception: reality may vary, and probably does.)  Your statement that my STRUGGLE (emphasis mine) to do right will have benefits I can’t see, for people I don’t know, was exactly the encouragement I needed today.  So Mrs. Fischer, if you’re asking yourself if writing this column did any real good to any real person, please tell yourself, Yes.  Thank you.

Great post.
(By the way, don’t know if it was just a minor slip, but it’s “Revelation” singular.  I used to call it Revelations until I realized that it wasn’t plural.)

SteveT:

I’m sorry if you were on the receiving end of that kind of thing, but in my experience, it’s very rare in Catholic circles. Certainly much less common than endless upbraiding of women for normal things like wearing a bathing suit or going to college. I’m sorry if in your particular situation those are the problems you had to deal with and can see how it would be hurtful and exhausting, but it’s exaggerating quite a bit to claim that they are widespread problems among conservative Catholic families. I think it’s pretty important in these discussions for people to keep a certain amount of perspective between what has happened to them personally and what seems to happen to a lot of people. There aren’t dozens and dozens of articles written by Catholic women about how men who don’t braid their daughter’s hair correctly are child abusers. There ARE articles QUITE regularly written by men about how Catholic women need to change to better and more worthy of Catholic men, and most of them seem to revolve around a weird fixation on women’s bodies and what women can and should do to make life a lot easier for men.

I personally think that too much is being asked of both men & women in marriage,work, & family life.Just step back & take a breath.Look at what’s really non-negotiable & then discern whatever causes stress & can be eliminated.
He’s politically incorrect & our local paper dumped his weekly column, but I like John Rosemond’s books-up to a point.I think the attention centered on children can become misdirected & the family balance in homes has become skewed.

I have for years wanted to write a book called something along the lines of “Why and How Satan Hates Women.” I am glad to see this idea touched on here.

@Io, thank you. Please note, I am not claiming that these are problems of conservative Catholic families; moreover, as a practicing traditionalist Catholic, I understand and unequivocally agree that within conservative Catholic circles, especially among us Trads, there are quite a few blowhard wannabe patriarchs who obsess over womens’ dress and behavior to a ludicrously unhealthy degree. But I’m not talking about or to that group. I’m talking about the wider society and those who haven’t rejected many of its pomps and works, those who are in many cases are as Catholic as my dog: loved by a Catholic family, raised in a good Catholic home, and with approximately the same level of comprehension of the Faith.

@SteveT

Thank you for acknowledging that. But here’s the problem.

Traditional Catholic men have to deal with the problems from the world. Not so much from traditional Catholic women.

Traditional Catholic women have to deal the problems from the world, and the problems from traditional Catholic men. We take it on both sides, and the “nice guys” are too busy worrying about the world outside of Catholicism to stand up for us. There is not an even balance here, and I get a bit tired of people acting like there is. It’s a very distinct imbalance.

That’s not to say that people’s personal struggles aren’t important, because they are, but it often seems like the response to Catholic women speaking up about problems is, “Oh but men have it JUST as bad, so please pipe down.”

Thank you, Simcha, great post - I will share with others.

At my first job out of college one of the VPs of the company playfully slapped me on the bottom (this was in the ‘80s).  I spun around and told him, “Don’t you EVER touch me again!” He backed off like a scalded cat and treated me with respect from then on. 

Had I been dressed in today’s “hooker chic”, he may not have backed off, or at least not taken me seriously… There will always be men who try to take liberties, and they will succeed if women don’t hold themselves to a higher standard.

As the wife of a wonderful husband and mother of two adult sons, I want to say “thank you” to all the men out there who fight for us, work for us and treat us as ladies despite all of the half-dressed Barbies and feminist harpies they’ve come across.

Hooker chic? Half-dressed Barbies? Do you have any idea what kinds of clothes are considered appropriate in most professional environments? This is exactly the kind of rhetoric and aimless bashing of the “other” which is not helpful and which gives misogynistic men more fuel than they already have.

And sexual harassment is not made acceptable by immodest clothes. Again, not helpful.

there is a direct correlation between how much women objectify themselves with their own immodest dress and the degree to which men seeing these immodest women in turn objectify them as well.

It is as if the immodest woman non-verbally speaks out loud, saying: You are free to objectify me because I objectify myself.

The fact is, at the end of the day, 150 years ago, women were not so objectified except in !@#$% houses, where it was expected, expectedly.

in islamic regimes, where the other kind real oppression of women occurs, it is easy to see the backlash against american immodesty has manifested itself among the women there who actually choose this other form of oppression and wear the hijab as a symbolic gesture to resist this kind of objectification. ironically, the more they resist, the more they too objectify themselves by going to the other extreme to take away their own humanity.

what needs to occur is MODESTY WITH HUMANITY. That middle ground where women are free to be themselves, but where being cute also does not have to mean dressing like a slut. Because if you look around these days, mothers are training their daughters to be sluts. The clothes they pick out for them are “practice clothes”. They wear the layers of shirts in such a way that still it is meant to, intended to draw focus to the body in a sexualized manner. Oh, they try to deny it, but it is so. It is true.

Then those girls grow up wearing their clothes in the same fashion, just less of it, and think nothing of what they present of themselves.

It is all about presentation. You simply cannot present a short dress with a low neck line and expect a man not to notice that long before he notices whether you have a gentle spirit.

I’d rather notice your gentle spirit, but if all you’re presenting is T&A, then that is all that you are.

You can lie to you yourselves all day and pretend this is not true, but it is true nonetheless.

People were outraged at the Ayatollah years ago for saying it is not the fault of the cat that he eats and drinks milk and meat, and if you put meat in front of a cat, then don’t blame the cat for easting it. He used this in reference to the immodesty of women in western culture. People, liberal women, railed against him so much that he even partly re-canted his statement. His statement was in reference to women being raped. And while no woman can be held accountable for a man raping her, it is also true that no man can be held accountable for noticing T&A before truth and spirit in a woman when she puts both her T&A out front to bear. Because, in truth, if that’s what I see first, then I see a spirit that is exploiting itself in the most horrific way.

If you dress immodestly, then YOU ARE GUILTY of causing the man to sin in his heart.

“If you dress immodestly, then YOU ARE GUILTY of causing the man to sin in his heart.”

BS.

How many Catholic women go around showing “T&A”?

Meanwhile, modesty in dress is the result of living in a society that values sexual morality. It is NOT the cause of it. We need to work on rebuilding the family first, which will never happen as long as women are getting piled on by the men who should be protecting them. If you want modesty, work on respect for women.

Islamic culture shows us what happens when the emphasis is placed on modesty first, morality and respect for women last. It’s a culture where women are subjected to horrible atrocities and sexual crimes, and then blamed for them. Their diseased culture is the best argument there is for why Catholics must not fall into this kind of thinking.

@Io, you and my sister would get along. She went to an all girls school where they acted like modesty and chastity were the only virtues. They treated the poor kids like crap, but boy were we all modest!
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Poor Simcha: this is what she wrote in the article, “Most of the Catholic women I know don’t need to hear more exhortations to work hard, sacrifice ourselves, put our families first, be generous.  We already do these things, and we drive each other crazy making impossible demands on ourselves and each other.  This is how it feels to be the center of a culture war:  it feels—exhausting.”............and look where we all are now! Talking about modesty and who is or isn’t making life harder.

To admonish women to dress modestly because something bad will happen if they don’t (you’ll be objectified, you’ll be assaulted, people will lose respect for you, you’ll cause your brothers to fall) will only work so long as the fear is there. And nobody likes living in fear, so eventually a girl who has dressed modestly out of fear will likely decide she’s not afraid anymore and is just going to live her life - but what then will govern her decisions about how to dress? But if the messages we are getting are that clothing is a way to celebrate the beauty God gave us in the way that He meant it to be celebrated, that fashion is a way of expressing ourselves and sending messages about who we are and what we value to those around us, there is no fear there to be “outgrown”.

And so, eduin reese, while your comment started off so insightful, comparing the two extremes of immodesty and hyper-modesty, both of which take away the humanity of women, you ended up by reiterating that women should dress modestly out of fear - fear of being objectified and fear of being guilty of causing another’s sin. 

I could get all worried about this.  I don’t want to be objectified and I certainly don’t want to be responsible for another’s sin.  But there is literally no way I could dress in such a way as to avoid ever tempting any man.  I mean, the example you gave of immodest dress was… layered shirts?

For those of you interested in this subject, it might be informative to check out JPII’s “Evangelium Vitae”. It talks a lot about similar things. The encyclical is here at the Vatican website: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html

There is an article on the USCCB site that I think can help this discussion: http://old.usccb.org/prolife/programs/rlp/collins02.shtml

It talks about how every human person wants to be competent, connected and comforted.

“Competent: we want to feel that we have skills, we have gifts, and we have the power to bring them to fruition – to produce, to create, to serve. But that’s not enough for us. We also long for a sense of connection. We know that at a fundamental level we are social creatures who need relationships and need to be accepted for who we are. Being rejected, being truly solitary is to be in hell. And beyond these, we look for comfort – for touch, tenderness, support. We want someone to be unequivocally “for us.”“

The tough thing about this is that in striving for these three things, men and women cross their signals. Women want to be able to have the confidence in their appearance. It is a way that, no matter how many loads of laundry need to be folded, or how many insecurities are inside, they still can show forth their beauty in being “put together”.

The struggle for men is that when women are “put together” it draws our attention. We are hard wired to our eyes. I know I am driven, so to speak, to seek connection and comfort initially through what I see and sense. My wife tells me her inclination toward connection and comfort is through words and pondering them.

I think there will always be a tension between men and women, as there is throughout the Bible narratives. Our job is to strive for those ideals found in the wisdom literature.

I was reading some of the other posts about who causes who to fall and I’m forced to think of Augustine’s 7th sermon on the Letter of St. John, “Love and do what you will.” If we work on that, we’ll do well. If not then we might start blaming others for our problems.

Regardless of how a women dresses, it is my responsibility to treat her as a human being, a Child of God and an equal. If I can’t do that, I need work. If I can’t “handle” how she’s dressed, I’m not justified to treat her badly, or think uncharitably of her. I need to deal with my plank before I mention anyone else’s splinter.

When you are younger, dealing with your body and with other people is a lot like riding a wild horse.  Somehow, causing NFP to be the norm in Catholic families, is, imo, the most most urgent way that the body of Christ needs upbuilding and to the extent that this is brought about it will have a positive effect on society at large.

I suffered a long exchange in the com boxes with a young man who harbored a lot of guilt, and was filled with violent anger toward women.  He was outraged that pants showed a woman’s form.  He called me “heartless” for wearing them.  Finally at the end he admitted that he was a porn user.
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A few years ago, I had the opportunity to speak to what appeared to be a very upstanding husband and father who had come forth about pornography, sex addiction, and his “cure” by converting to the faith.  I had a burning question for him.  I asked, “when you would see an attractive woman dressed immodestly, did you look at her with *automatic* lust, or was there an act of the will involved, did you look at her and *choose* to lust?”  He stated clearly and unequivocally that it was an ACT OF THE WILL. It was indeed a conditioned response, but there was always a choice involved. When he gave his life to God he stopped this behavior once and for all, finally understanding how he was offending God.  He told me that he was genuinely a slave of evil, and that breaking free from this addiction (which he had had from the time that he was a young boy)was the most freeing liberation he had ever experienced.  HE himself qualified this statement, by saying that his reaction was towards *any* beautiful woman, modest or not.

How the heck did this devolve into the modesty thing? Sheesh. Reading comprehension is important.

jojosmom, I wish I could award you one internet for that awesome comment.

This thread is being hijacked by the “women are victims of men” meme. Yes, in the case of traditionalist Catholic families, I am convinced that women are treated poorly, etc. I’m sure that women are treated abominably by men everywhere, all the time. But Simcha was writing the vanishing rare article that points out that sometimes, some men are treated poorly by women.

Can you believe that? Can you internalize that?

I am a practicing Catholic father of four that is being divorced by his wife, another cradle Catholic. She has followed the American woman’s divorce script to the letter, with great success. She called the police on me three times; the police and I chatted, and they, seeing nothing amiss, left. She orchestrated friends and family to call Children & Youth services and lodge anonymous complaints that I was abusing my children. C&Y investigated and dismissed all these calls as unfounded. My wife then took me to Court, her lawyer raised these reports, my lawyer protested that they were all found untrue, and the judge threw me out of my house just in case. My wife crowed about her success to me to rub it in.

Next up, my wife used a spurious child abuse charge to withhold my children from me for almost three months, and I didn’t get to see them until I sued her. Furthermore, she told my children that I just wasn’t bothering to pick them up, and that’s why they didn’t see daddy anymore.

Please, women were not exempted from the Fall, and just because men treat them badly, women can and do treat men badly.

Posted by Lydia on Thursday, Aug 2, 2012 2:22 PM (EST):How the heck did this devolve into the modesty thing? Sheesh
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Because in Catholic threads concerning women that’s the default devolvement.
:)

This thread is being hijacked by the “women are victims of men” meme. Yes, in the case of traditionalist Catholic families, I am convinced that women are treated poorly, etc. I’m sure that women are treated abominably by men everywhere, all the time. But Simcha was writing the vanishing rare article that points out that sometimes, some men are treated poorly by women.

Can you believe that? Can you internalize that?

I am a practicing Catholic father of four that is being divorced by his wife, another cradle Catholic. She has followed the American woman’s divorce script to the letter, with great success: she called the police

This thread is being hijacked by the “women are victims of men” meme. Yes, in the case of traditionalist Catholic families, I am convinced that women are treated poorly, etc. I’m sure that women are treated abominably by men everywhere, all the time. But Simcha was writing the vanishing rare article that points out that sometimes, some men are treated poorly by women.

Can you believe that? Can you internalize that?

I am a practicing Catholic father of four that is being divorced by his wife, another cradle Catholic. She has followed the American woman’s divorce script to the letter, with great success. She called the police on me three times; the police and I chatted, and they, seeing nothing amiss, left. She orchestrated friends and family to call Children & Youth services and lodge anonymous complaints that I was abusing my children. C&Y investigated and dismissed all these calls as unfounded. My wife then took me to Court, her lawyer raised these reports, my lawyer protested that they were all found untrue, and the judge threw me out of my house just in case. My wife crowed about her success to me to rub it in.

Next up, my wife used a spurious child abuse charge to withhold my children from me for almost three months, and I didn’t get to see them until I sued her. Furthermore, she told my children that I just wasn’t bothering to pick them up, and that’s why they didn’t see daddy anymore.

Please, women were not exempted from the Fall, and just because men treat them badly, women can and do treat men badly.

Wow.  I don’t blame you, Simcha, but to be honest I can’t keep reading the comments on these.  They seem to be increasingly hostile and now are verging into rape-y.

Steve, I am sorry that this is happening to your family.

My husband is freaking amazing.  My hat is off to him.  He’s my gladiator.  There.  Back to the post.  I’m not exaggerating either.  I was just following the thread, and trying not to brag.  My attempt at erudition failed though.  At least I suppressed “beyond sexy”.

@Anna Lisa: thank you. Please pray for my wife; I’m convinced she’s gone a bit nuts

@Corita: Um, rape-y? What even is that?

that’s easy, God is winning. The devil may win a battle or two, but all of history is just the story of God’s triumph over the grave.

I get what you’re saying, but I would phrase it in a slightly different way:

All of history is God snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

Steve, I will dedicate the mass my husband and I attend tomorrow for your intentions.
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“I’m convinced she’s gone a bit nuts”...Steve, I FREAKED OUT once and went a little nuts.  It’s weird, because I had fooled myself into thinking that things were just fine the way they were. I had spent so many years trying to be the perfect 50’s housewife like my mother. Suddenly there I was, literally almost putting a flower pot through the flat screen.  I’d had it.  As I told my oldest kids and husband, “it’s like I woke up one morning and realized that I could be a pile of bones in the corner, and no one would have even checked to see if I had a pulse, until dinner hadn’t been served.”  Somewhere in my soul I’d hidden an angry list that I couldn’t even consciously locate until then.
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I had always prided myself in being a trooper.  I could never open my mouth and be taken seriously.  I was a good Catholic girl in every sense of the word.  I was the soft rug under everybody’s feet that I’d been told to be.
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I really don’t recommend the flower pot approach (wives, please don’t do this at home)  My husband looked into my face that day and knew I’d had it.  HAD IT.  He called an old priest-friend who has known us for decades who helped us to untangle the whole mess..
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In the end, my husband and I were finally able to communicate at a level that we had forgotten existed.  He literally got down on his knees and begged me to forgive him.  I did the same (it took me longer).  The words “I am SO SORRY” are SO POWERFUL when we mean them.  I will forever remember my husband on his knees with tears streaming down his face, begging me for a new beginning.
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We left the rat race behind, and began to pray on our knees together every day again. My husband stopped being an asshole.  He really did!  And I stopped being a wounded animal with hidden resentments.
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My husband has a big job with big pressure.  He says he never could have endured pressure like this before.  *We are a walled city now*.
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We *suffered* for this marriage that we have now.  It is like something I’d never dreamed of or hoped for.  We go to great pains to take care of each others’ hearts.  We are truly, deeply, madly in love. (Sorry for the smarm) The kids come after US now, and we would *die* for them in a heartbeat.
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I hope there is something that you can still do.  Tears and knees are powerful.  Combined with the Holy Spirit…words can’t describe.

@wife: thank you. I hear everything you are saying. we went down that same path, but unfortunately, even further than you did. I’m convinced that the only thing that can save usis prayer.

I really don’t get all the complaints about men not “seeing” what needs to be done. It’s not as if they are doing it from bad will. By nature women are generally more detail oriented, good at seeing (and obsessing over) all the little things. Men are more “see the big picture” oriented. I think that is because women are inwardly focused on the home and the cradle and men are outwardly focused on the world and Big Ideas. My husband gives me some perspective when I am stressed out about dust bunnies under the couch my MIL might see or hyperventilating because the ribbon does not match the wrapping! And, no, I am not OCD. I just loose sight of the forest because of the trees.

We also decided long ago that we would each do what we were good at in our marriage, not what society dictates as “men’s work” or “women’s work”. I’m more organized, so I pay the bills. My husband has a good, clear reading voice, so he reads to the kids at night. I’m good at handywork, so I do a lot of the home repairs. My husband is a genius and articulate, so he teaches the older kids. My husband is patient and loves the outdoors, so the vegetable garden and chickens are his babies. I tend to be critical, where my husband has a good sense of humor, so he deals with the teenagers’ crises. I freak out at the sight of blood, so my husband has kept all our children from bleeding to death. I can’t handle vomit; he can’t handle excessively poopy diapers. We cover for each other and try to cut each other some slack. It’s called teamwork.

Women are the battlefield - from the lie of safe contraceptives without cost to the lie of the well balanced diet (that is ultimately destroying our health), women truly are the battlefield.  Liberation, freedom, the ills of our society enslave us.
Today, women are experiencing cancer in unprecedented numbers - they are the victims of untold numbers of auto-immune disorders - they are infertile - they are torn from their family by economic design, further weakening the very image of God in the world.  Yes, women are the battlefield.

@ SteveT
“how about the smug assurance that men are complete morons when it comes to child care? How about when a man falls to perform a task in precisely the same fashion as the woman, and falling to achieve * exactly * identical results, being treated as verging on child abuse, such as not braiding his daughters’ hair as tightly as their mother would7 How about when the man, the sole breadwinner for the family, is lambasted for not doing an equal share of the housework as his stay-at-home wife?”
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Now, granted, I’m not married - but your examples are of women I am completely the opposite of (which may be an indication of why I’m not married. Men keep telling me how cool and awesome I am, amazed I’m not a nag - like all the other women they know - but still I remain single. Tempted to start treating them like sH!t - that oughta do it!)
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Instead, i respect men. To the point if they try to indicate that they’re not equipped for childcare - I wave the BS flag! Of course you’re capable. I have every confidence that I can leave a child with you and the child will still be alive when I return!
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I might kid about a man not doing a task the way I would do it - but give me a break, I’ve been doing everything myself for more than 20 years.  but I will say, if I’m telling you that I do it a certain way, there may be a reason for it.  an example comes to mind… my ex-boyfriend was going to install some memory in my computer. My computer desk is in a tight corner - and rather than pull the desk away from the wall and approach the compute from the back - as I would - he kept trying to tug it out the front and swearing all the way.
When I advised him to approach the tower from the back - he insisted he knew better.  When he finally got done swearing and sweating he was alarmed to find that I had all the computer cables tethered to the back of the desk with 3M hooks - to prevent a rat’s nest.
Oh, how this inflamed him! 
I said, “I told you that I like to pull the desk out and approach it from behind!” 
Now you’ll say I should have told him about the organized, tethered cords—- but I didn’t remember that.  I just knew there was a compelling reason to do it the way I do it. It didn’t even occur to me that someone WOULDN’T control the rats nest of cords and cables.
The lesson… when a woman confirms her compelling reason three times… listen!!

Steve T: A close relative is going through something very similar. It is like witnessing a wreck, but being unable to pick the children out of the wreckage because you have to be VERY careful so that you are able to continue a relationship with them. You sincerely have my prayers. It IS like his almost-ex is going crazy (but not from “wife’s” reasons).

Ryan @10:30ish: Wow—that was a lot to think about. My close relative is living this as he negotiates the nastiness of the “one flesh” brutally ripped asunder. He has grown so close to the Lord as this drama has unfolded, and he is like Hosea, let me tell you, and not subjecting her to scandal. And he is quiet about it, too. Catholic masculinity, definitely. 

Thanks, Simcha, for the article, and the thoughtful comments.

to me this piece was kind of soothing in a way. The women readers seem to think it is the best thing you’ve ever written. I don’t think it’s quite that good. I would like to see more that says to women just shut up and stop trying to control everything.

On the surface this seems a balanced article. From a man’s perspective however, what were once women have by the majority contracepted, aborted, and had the final tubal ligation. They have looked upon the design God provided in their body and rejected it. They have taken the apple. They are no longer actually woman by more than one definition. They are more like an androgynous creature. Think about this the next time you see an absence of chilvary. I can tell you it is very painful to be “married” to someone that has gone down this path.

So, please stop measuring what each side of the gender war is doing. Start undoing this tubal knot we find ourselves in.

Is this author for real? How can she speak about family courts when she is married and with 9 children. There is rampant abuse of women and children in those courts and if you all want to keep ignoring it, women will be forced to turn to the UN. I have sought help through the Catholic Church. My ex-husband was abusive and was criminally convicted of assaulting me while I was pregnant. He was very violent and threatened to kill me. I sought help from the family courts, but he had all the access to money and ended up winning custody eventually and cutting me off from our child out of spitefulness and abusiveness. He continues to abuse both me and our child and the courts do nothing. This is a widespread problem and this authors ignorance is shameful. The fact the National Catholic Register would publish such gross inaccuracy is also shameful. The Fathers Rights movement is a Male Supremacy group much like the Nazis and skinheads. I cannot believe good Catholic men or women would support their agenda. This is lacking in reason and compassion entirely. I pray for your conversion Mrs. Fisher.

@Katie, “By nature women are generally more detail oriented, good at seeing (and obsessing over) all the little things. Men are more “see the big picture” oriented. I think that is because women are inwardly focused on the home and the cradle and men are outwardly focused on the world and Big Ideas.”
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I wasn’t suggesting that it was malice, but I do think that there is a profound sort of disinterest in what needs to be done in the home and a lot of laziness toward it. “I don’t value this chore, even though I rely on it. I will do a crappy job until you get the idea and stop asking me to do it.” And I can’t really relate to being described as not focused on “Big Ideas”, but that may be because I work nights, run a company, and do copy editing for my dad’s company. I do all of the paperwork, bill paying, financial planning, etc. for our family. I think that women may do a lot of domestic things with a certain panache that isn’t strictly necessary, but men who choose to do their share with a good heart are doing so much to indicate to their wives that they really are valued. I appreciate it when my husband does do a good job, or does something with a good heart. But when he gets grumpy about having to do his 10% of the housework (even though I work), it’s really corrosive. It turns all that nice detailed stuff that I do, like nice lunches and clean clothes, from little gestures of love, to me being taken advantage of. We’ve come a long way on this issue, but I want to throw it out there that when a husband has matured, he gives without counting. When a wife has matured, she learns when to stop (as in, before she’s ragged and resentful). It’s hard to say “I’ve done enough today and it’s okay for other people to do their share while I rest.”

@Damaged Woman: That’s terrible, but not normal. The courts do almost universally side with the moms, even when the dads really want to be there and be loving. Did you hear about the case where a man’s wife cheated on him, conceived a child, and died a few years later? Her lover came and WON custody of the only family that the poor cuckold had. The rules have changed since then because this was such an egregious dismissal of fatherhood (the real kind, not the DNA Donation kind).

Please do consider gathering your best rosebuds (columns) into a printed and/or kindle format. I’d like my daughters to read this one day, and I doubt I’ll be organized enough to find it….

@Rick, I do not mean to dismiss your pain but I want to point out that women are women no matter what they do to their bodies. And that women who are infertile or even who have had to have everything removed are still women. My mother is one such woman and is a wonderful wife to my father even though she cannot conceive a child. Not all infertility is deliberate.

@MightyMighty It simply isn’t true that courts favor moms unless the mother is politically connected to a well-financed family or other financed source. The politics of family courts have only been favorable to moms for a very short period of time in the 70’s. Prior to that, women and children were treated as property. After that, women gained some freedoms in law. Men had to pay alimony and child support, but it wasn’t enforced very much. Once the state began enforcing child support with jail sentences, the deadbeat dads and abusive fathers got organized and fought to gain more custody time, including full custody, ultimately defeating any chance of paying child support. That is where things stand now. So usually, vindictive fathers and the kind of fathers who don’t want to pay any child support end up fighting for custody. In fact, both Democrats and Republicans fund the states for the Fatherhood Initiative which is designed not to get child support orders enforced anymore but to help deadbeat dads get more custody. So moms who cannot pay for lawyers can’t even get help from legal aid while fathers can b/c of the budget and funding from federal to the state.

That is why so many, many women/mothers fleeing abusive men and trying to protect their children are having to turn to help from the United Nations. America has failed them. And it looks like American Catholic men are failing them too with the aid of such articles like this one written by Mrs. Fisher and published by the National Catholic Register. A shame indeed.

@Jojosmom When women deliberate, meditate, and act to prematurely remove their gift of life with “the pill” or abortifacients, which the pill is part of the time, or tubal ligation, these women reject their design by God. They are then no longer women in the full sense. They cannot bring forth and nurture life. They have rejected their own creator so their soul is damaged. They are not in a state of grace. I agree they need help but until the reality of the situation is made clear, no one will know how to help them. Reverse the damage and head for confession. Till then, they are rather androgynous and not women. Maybe a title of female will do.

Simcha, I like this piece much more.  ;)

re >>> There are several generations of women who grew up with no father in the house (or with a series of mom’s predatory boyfriends).<<<<

- Very true.  Likewise the term “cougar” just didnt pop into the lexicon.  Such stereotypes resonate because they are so commonly observed.  The stories of female predators, granted they may not be driven by sex as much as attention, that are now well known because of the internet, and went ignored in the past by the MSM because they were unseemly, serve to support the argument that “cougars” came to be popular because such women are not uncommon.

re >>> Most of the Catholic women I know don’t need to hear more exhortations to work hard, sacrifice ourselves, put our families first, be generous.  We already do these things, and we drive each other crazy making impossible demands on ourselves and each other.  This is how it feels to be the center of a culture war:  it feels—exhausting.<<<
- I dont doubt most Catholic women you know feel this way.  But I’d like to point out two things.  First, you said “we drive each other crazy”.  Yes, you do.  My observation of almost 50 years is that men really want women to sit down and relax; yes for the women’s sake and the man’s sanity.  But the men really mean it for your sake.  Dont discount that heart felt desire simply because they honestly acknowledge it would give them relief too.
- Second, I do not believe it’s in a woman’s nature to engage in the “culture war” in a martial sense that so many women of the “feminist/post-Vatican II liberation theology” mind seem to embrace.  I honestly believe it’s against a woman’s nature.  Not in a weak way, that concept has nothing to do with it.  I really think it’s largely built into her biological nature. First women can withstand the incessant chatter of babbling children far longer than men.  It’s such a universally consistent Mars/Venus aspect to society I find the argument against such being biological to have the burden of proof fall on those who disagree.  Granted that’s not at all a position that is logically defensible.  However there’s this study.  It was very simple.  The scientists recorded how long infants, not young children, infants, held eye contact with an adult who sat “face to face” with the child and interacted with them but I believe did not touch them.  The ratio “contact time” of girls vs boys was huge.  It was something like 10:1.  It’s not like the girls held eye contact for just a few seconds longer.  It was a multiple factor.  The study went on to theorize that maybe this is why women have a sixth-sense; they start paying close attention from the start.  In short, they seem much much more biologically wired to be concerned/focused on people, i.e. relationships.
- Which brings me to Mary.  Mary, to the best of my knowledge, in Scripture nor history, was said to be actively and consistently engaged, publicly, in the “war” for souls.  Or said another way, she didn’t seem to focus on the “culture war”.  Likewise, remember a different Mary, Martha’s sister.  Martha was running around and Mary sitting listening to Christ.  Now I’m not saying women should just sit pretty in the corner with a habit or the children and “look pretty” or act subservient.  But I really think in a way a woman’s nature is “above” the battle.  Or said in the meme of your piece, the battle ground which does not join in the fight but patiently waits for God.  A mother-earth so intrinsically tied to other parts of God’s plan that when she joins the battle it quickly feels un-natural.

re >>>Women are noisy, demanding.  We are always calling out to be saved, or at least to be heard.  Sometimes, as a woman, I feel abashed at my own nature:  I feel greedy, or weak, or imperious when I need help or attention—when I take my own problems seriously—when I have to stamp my foot and insist on being treated well, even if it’s a clear and basic need.  Even when I’m only thinking of the good of the family.<<<
- Yes the can be.  But I think women put far far more weight to these moments than men.  Even if it is a result of your nature, or monthly biology, it holds no real weight or significance to defining the woman we love.  My wife goes batty if I mention the monthly connection.  I tell her to relax about it.  I tell her it’s “not her”.  I really genuinely want her to understand that her taking it less seriously, for her happiness, is what I want and hope for her.  And my comments are merely my trying to help her get to that point.  I’m usually bit, and later told she appreciates it, with a “but”.  So it goes.  But my point still remains.  Women really need to take it easy on themselves on these type things.  The whole “Wonder Woman” & “can have it all baby” & “watch me roar” BS is all self-imposed and something men would love to see women truly liberated from.

re >>>Sometimes it would be easier just to be quiet.  But what can I do?  I am a battlefield.<<<<
- Ahhh, but you can.  Yes you are the battlefield.  But there’s also an old military saying; discretion is the better part of valor.  Basically because they tend to be the folks who live.  Most valor is lost to the din of the battle.  I’m quite confident that if you reduced your number of pieces to one a week you’d find a few things happen, all of them increasing your peace and happiness.  I image you constantly fight and fall prey to something very similar to many day-traders.  Trust me this will make sense.  One of the major pitfalls to traders is the greed that masquerades as fear.  The fear is they will “miss the trade” if they dont catch this one.  The old adage is of course just like missing a train, just wait another will be coming to the station soon, and another trade will come along.  So what do these trains, stations and trades have to do with you and your feeling exhausted on the battlefield.  Well, I suspect that you have a hundred thoughts you could write separate pieces on each week.  Each feels like that trade he’s “got to catch” to the trader or else he’ll miss the “upside”.  Experienced and profitable traders, like experienced and profitable writers, know that less is often more.  And that the real big piece, the one that will really have an impact on their feeling successful, is most often found through writing less, through trading their real life for their desire to write less often.  So I think it would be for you. 

re >>>So, to the men I know who have been wounded, scorned, castigated and ruined by women:  I am sorry.  I am sorry.  I apologize to you on behalf of my sex.<<<
- Likewise for our parts.

re >>>You must feel like a solider who steps off the plane at home, only to be spit on and screamed at by foolish, pampered protestors who have no idea that these troops are the ones who are defending their very freedom to protest.  But please remember:  those protestors, they are a small minority.  There is a grateful nation at home, an entire race of women you’ll never meet, who reap the benefits of your struggle every day. <<<
- I think your world in NH colors your ability to see what’s out there in the “big city” of the secular world.  There aren’t as many as you might think; especially given what looks to be your criteria.  Sorry, just looks that way from my wandering.

re >>>In short, by being good to women.<<<
- I think you lost a good bit of the men on that transition…

re >>> Women are the battlefield.  Just remember that, when you’re at war, not everyone you meet is the enemy.  If you want to win the war between good and evil, it is to women that you will have to come.<<<
- Ahhhhh, you were doing so well.  You sound like Eve!  ;)  To win the war, it is to Christ whom we men must go!  Not Eve.

- The reason why women are the battlefield is two fold.  First, Mary’s yes.  Second, a woman’s love of children is the last refuge of man’s hope in man’s love.  As Mother Teresa pointed out, and I paraphrase, in a culture where mothers kill their children in the womb, no evil is impossible.  It literally brings mankind back to the Garden of Eden and the apple.

- That is why the woman’s body is the battlefield.  Not because of the exhaustion women feel trying to be Wonder Woman and having it all baby.  Those both are manifestations and representations of the modern day apple in our garden.

- Virtually every sin roiling modern day man comes back to the errors of “feminism”.  That fact does not deny the roles of the “male/male-ism” errors; it is merely stating the roars of the others have grown so loud and are tearing apart so many souls that they are the commanding battle on the battlefield.  Read no more into it. 

- The OT book of creation has not been proven false by the science of evolution or string theory.  The central role of the apple of desire, of Eve’s role in transmitting and effecting desires, and of Mary in the NT, are why women are the apple and the battleground.

But there’s a reason men’s bodies litter the secular battle fields of men and of the spiritual wars of culture and Faith.  In Crucifixion He was flanked by two men; women were also crucified in that time and Christ was followed by men and women, so I do not think it is a out of bounds to look for some possible meaning or message tied to this fact. 

But maybe it really is not in a woman’s biological or spiritual nature to engage in “wars”.  Actual, cultural, or spiritual.

AMDG

@Damaged Woman, I’ve seen first hand the damage family courts can do and let me assure you that it is neither men nor women who are more favored. The court is never decided based on what is best for the child, but the decision is based on whoever has the most money to spend on lawyers. That could be the mother, father or even the school system, as in this case. Sometimes, if the child is emotionally healthy enough and the parents weak enough the courts play the parents against each other (“If you accuse him/her of abuse you’ll get to keep the kids”) and then take the child to “adopt out” and get a fat stipend. This is the nature of the court system and why we consider “calling CPS” fighting words in our house.

@Rick - it’s not only women who disable their reproductive organs; men have condoms and vasectomies after all. Yes, they may be in venial or mortal sin (depending on their level of knowledge), yet no amount of sin takes away our natures as sexual beings.

Great column, Simcha!
Despite having learned to pray Rosaries together before our marriage, we had difficulties and mixed expectations during our first 20 years.  Going to Marriage Encounter was a revolution, and an upgrading generally of our relation with each other.  I guess that I had not really learned “to listen” when something was bothering her.
We joked that “If divorce is being considered, whoever leaves MUST take the kids.”  Neither of us wanted to face the kids w/o the other.  Our kids are now aged 55 to 47;  our daughter who would have been 45 died last year of a brain tumor. 
We’re not yet perfected (nor are our kids & grandkids) but we pray together and still flirt to show our love, despite changes to our bodies in the last few years that make complete physical renewal of our vows infeasible.  Hugs, kisses and affection can keep a marriage strong.  Frequent attendance at daily mass & Communion are recommended.
TeaPot562

Simcha, as a man, I have to figure out what I can do better, even if the expected feminine response never comes. As a single father, I have to figure out how to teach my son how he is supposed to act, even if there is no female role model to help me demonstrate. That, for him and me, will always be an absence; and the only thing I can lament productively is what I could have done. Your post is by a woman, addressed to women, saying they need to take responsibility; but this by no means (and I know you aren’t really suggesting this) means men should stop taking responsibility for their side also. We can’t look at a half-eaten apple in our hands and say, “She made me do it.”

But, for what it’s worth, apology accepted.

Damaged Woman ,
Sometimes our personal experiences can distort our vision on everything else.
But I do hear you about the issue of lawyers & money. Men more often are in a better financial position to hire experienced attorneys.Sadly, that does make a difference in the outcome of court cases.

Women’s bodies are a battlefield all right. Just ask any woman in an abortion clinic waiting room. Nine times out of ten they’ll say, “I’m here because I had no other choice. My father/husband/boyfriend/lover/the guy who raped me wants me to have this abortion.” Pro-choice? Indeed. Today’s men want things easy. They want free sex from a woman who throws herself at him, dresses like a tart, and they won’t support any children she has. Even the good Catholic guys won’t ask out or dance with a beautiful new girl they meet on a retreat. It’s simply too much work, too must risk. They prefer to date an extraverted girl who asks all the boys out, or date their cousin’s sister’s best girlfriend next door who knows them for 10 years than risk it with someone new. Where is the gallantry, the chivalry men once had? If they can’t be brave as men should, they can’t be depended on for civil defense either.

@ That Hat Lady, you are pro choice and want chilvary too!

James, we women do say things like that about men… but actually, most of us really DO appreciate you guys. My method of dealing with things is to try humor. You could respond with, “hurtful.” while having a pleasant look on your face. (The character “Woody says “hurtful.” on the t.v. show “Suite Life On Deck.”) Or, you could say, “as the token male I am required to object to that.” Or, “I know they are all terrible!  -except for me.”  The good women will get the message. If there are mean ones.. well, it doesn’t matter what anyone says. (If the mean ones have “followers” you MAY be able to reach them, after awhile.) Thanks for teaching! Most of my best teachers were men.

Brilliant.  You have voiced the thoughts of many men who feel that they men have ‘legislated themselves into a position of quasi-inferiority, almost insignificance.’  Women are the battlefield and we men are honour-bound to do the right thing by them.  Having said that, if our wings are so closely shorn we cannot fly and perform out God-given duties.

Wow - Women are the battlefield.  I guess the presupposition is that things should have gotten easier since technological innovation, communication breakthrough, industrial revolution, universal suffrage, universal literacy…  But in fact the same old equation holds true, and will ever hold true: that ground is hard, and that forehead is sweaty.

“wife.” Doesn’t that just say it.  After completing the circuit, you’re back to being a “wife.”  Kind of edenic.  Gives me hope.

Did you remember to mention that the primary combatants for a woman’s body (time, energy, effort) are her children?  Forget about the men-types.  Children are the ones who beat and bargain, deal and drain.  Men are usually absorbed in inconsequential things like farm implements and spreadsheets. 

Most men can take a simple algebraic equation and occupy themselves for hours and days on end - productively!  Whereas children need constant coddling, smoothing over, schmoozing.  In fact there’s probably a freudian cut-off point, like potty-training, where a little boy stops hounding his mother and starts thinking about indian arrowheads, or wind-up rubberband airplanes, or something like that. 

This theory of the eternal return to mommy was probably instituted by someone who had nothing better to do, or no real deer to return home with.  In the subtext are wounded tears.

@That Hat Lady [“Even the good Catholic guys won’t ask out or dance with a beautiful new girl they meet on a retreat. It’s simply too much work, too must risk.”]  Why bother when “even good Catholic gals” are often more interested in the guy’s income level.”  Show me some depth beyond your Material Girl world.  At least Madonna (bad Catholic girl) is honest about it.

What an insightful commentary. I spoke with Teresa Tomeo yesterday morning and shared the song I wrote, “Let Freedom Sing” She posted it in her blog, http://www.teresatomeo.com/332-let-freedom-sing.html

I do believe women are the battlefield, It started in the garden of Eden with the serpent and the woman.
Let us continue the fight against evil in all its ugly forms, and become the free men and women God intended for each of us.  “Let Freedom Sing.”  Annie Karto

I just read a commentary about the present “War on Women” mantra.  There is not a war on women.
-There is a “War FOR women.”  There is a war of good vs. evil being waged OVER women.  The trophy of this war is to win the mind, heart and soul of women. That is why women are the battlefield.
-A battlefield does not take sides to fight the battle.  The battlefield itself IS the trophy.  Whichever side wins the battlefield, wins the war.
-The enemy knows this. 
-The enemy wins the battlefield when it convinces a woman that evil is “good.”

Matt B - Like your point about children and their existential demands upon mothers.  At the March for Life in DC last January, I discussed the meaning of authentic marriage with a priest.  He remarked, ‘Marriage is for the protection of women and mothers’.  Amen.  We women need to assert this - we are uniquely vulnerable, ‘on the battlefield’, when we bear and nurture our children.  I am not afraid to say I need/needed protection at that point, and the best protector is/was my husband, the father of our children.  No other contrived ‘relationships’ hold this imperative for society.
.
Great points all around in this combox!

This is good, very very good. I was going to write a statement but you have said it all. I could not add one word. I plan to send a copy of this to my sons. Thank you for writing this.

Thanks Simcha…this is great. I’m copying it for future use, and I’m thankful for your address to “good” and “bad” women…we are capable of some pretty hurtful things as women and should be careful to be kind to the men who fight for us daily.

I would never marry an American woman. I will die alone and leave no children behind.

My Dad yells at my Mom for every little thing he sees in the house that’s a bit dirty, and he routinely calls her stupid or completely disregards her input about minor and major decisions. Everything always has to go his way, and if it didn’t it’s somehow her fault.  I can’t stand it, but somehow I can’t say anything about it, because if I say it while he’s angry (which is almost always) he’ll ignore it, and if I say something while he is not angry, then he is already busy and doesn’t listen to me.  I’m getting so sick of it.  Parents are meant to work together to provide a good example for their kids, and because Dad is always mad at Mom for something that she had no control over, it gets passed on to us kids. It makes for a very problematic home environment. I love my parents, but they just don’t know what they’re doing and I can’t get them to see it.  I feel like it’s almost entirely Dad’s fault. I don’t know what to do about it.

Confide him to St. Joseph.

Oh dear St. Joseph: you shielded the Blessed Mother from the opprobrium of the crowd, when she turned up pregnant for no logical reason; you took her home with you when she was about to give birth to a child whom everyone knew was not your own; you fled the country and left your entire way of life to avoid that child’s murderers - all on the slimmest possible factual information (dream visions of an angel) - I confide my father and my family to your consummate paternal care.

Repeat several times a day.  If possible, combine with (any combination of) recitation of the Rosary; attendance at a daily Mass; eucharistic adoration; or meditative reading of holy scripture.

Unfortunately, your situation is not entirely uncommon.  Fortunately, there is an answer.  “Seek and you will find.” 

God bless you, Torin!

Thank you very much. I will definitely try that. :)

As usual, your writing is brilliant. I have thought a lot about your themes but I am also haunted by the pain expressed by Steve T,Damaged Woman, and Torin. It is painful to hear your stories; I’m sure it’s excruciating to live through the pain.  I’m praying for you.

Amazing post Simcha!  Truly, I believe (and I’m sure it’s already been said) this is your best post ever.  You got right to the heart of the issue, of all the issues really.  And you are so right.  It feels exhausting to be the battlefield.  I get so tired of hearing all about the “women’s issues”,the “women’s vote” and so tired of feminist’s making me look bad.

Jojos mom— I loved your comment about modesty, very very good.

Simcha— I think this is a very good article. I like the concept of women being the battleground.  I second one commuters reference to the book Captivating.  It is very eye opening and respectful of this whole issue of men and women issues. 

As a side note,  my husband sometimes says that the most discriminated against demograph in America is white, Christian males. Somehow because they haven’t ever been “oppressed”, they don’t seem to have been dealt a “victim card” to play.  FWIW, that sounds accurate to me.

This from the ball buster who wrote about “does that hurt your widdle feewings? That’s because you’re not a man!” I don’t think those women are as small a minority as you think.

I guess she hurt your widdle feewings.

WoW…quite a lot of posts.  It was easy to forget what the article was about by the time I read about the woman who needed protection on the battlefield because she was in the vulnerable state of giving birth and nurturing her children. Luckily, she knew (through the advice of an “authentic” priest) that marriage was meant to protect women and children. (The whole scarlet letter A thing?) Why does it seem like men and women have been put into two distinctive boxes - with very specific roles - and it’s all or nothing? ——-Was the priest authentic because he agreed with you? Or because he somehow proved that he wasn’t an impersonator?