The old saw that porn “makes men treat women like objects” is utterly true. Using people is easy; loving them is hard. If you can summon up a panting beauty just by touching your iPod screen, then why go to the trouble of getting to know an actual woman—learning who she really is, winning her love, and dedicating your life to serving her as Christ serves the Church?
Porn is a marriage wrecker, a life stealer, a stinking smog that lies over the city of man and makes it hard to breathe.
Here’s something to consider: Just as men are prone to treating women as objects, it’s also possible—although much less talked-about—for women to treat men as objects. Are the effects of this sin as devastating as the effects of porn? Maybe not. But we cannot deny that treating someone as an object, and not as a soul, is a serious offense against love.
It doesn’t look the same as porn, of course. Even while women can certainly struggle with lust, and are capable of reducing a man to a body she covets, most of the time that sort of objectification is a man’s struggle, not a woman’s. The objectification of men is common in secular circles and, unfortunately, in religious circles, too. It doesn’t matter if the stereotype is the bumbling idiot-man of popular sitcoms, or the rock-hard, emotionless breadwinner of the rigidly traditionalist world: a stereotype is a stereotype, and it objectifies the person in question. It puts a barrier between the souls of a man and a woman, and makes their relationship sterile. It is contrary to love.
I want to emphasize that even loving people can be selfish from time to time, without committing a mortal sin or wrecking their marriage. I have, however, seen a woman whose radical objectification of her husband brought their marriage to an end. There was no other way to describe it: she treated him like a thing until he couldn’t stand it any more.
This is how women, without even realizing it, often objectify men.
By reducing his worth to the work he can do for her. This is an easy trap, because men often do show love by working hard, and women are often in a position where they need a man’s help. I, for instance, am about as useful as a burned-out refrigerator toward the end of each pregnancy, and my husband does more and more of the work that ought to be mine.
Even though this is only fair (and I am getting some high quality gestation done, after all), it’s important that I let him know that I appreciate his willingness to go beyond his normal duties. I need to let him know that I’m not just glad that someone’s doing that laundry—but that I’m accepting his help as a loving act, making it part of our relationship.
Relatedly: by treating her husband as the sole proprietor of her emotional well-being. Now, a woman who loves a bad man is a miserable woman, and that’s certainly his fault. He should want to make her happy, and he should try to figure out how to do it. But after a certain point, a man has to care for himself, too. His happiness counts, and she mustn’t behave as if her desires are essential, but his are pesky.
By assuming that everything he does (or doesn’t do) is designed either to please or to annoy her. They say that if a woman knew what a man was thinking about her, she would never stop slapping him. Well, if a man knew what a woman was thinking about him, he would never stop going, ” . . . Huh???” I sometimes find myself all up in arms over some elaborate scheme that my husband has plotted, point by point, to make me feel ugly, insignificant, and repressed.
Then I get a good night’s sleep or eat some protein, and realize that his only real crime was being a little distracted. Maybe he had a headache, or was worried about something at work. And the grandiose sandcastle of husbandly malice that I had built around my poor, suffering self turns into mud and washes away, leaving me soggy and exposed.
By constantly comparing him to other men she admires (but probably doesn’t know very well). Why keep a constant loop of “If only he were more like Daddy, I’d be happy” or “So-and-so’s husband does such-and-such—why can’t mine?” playing in her head? He is who he is, and she married him because that kind of thing appealed to her. That’s what she has to work with, and it’s unfair (and useless) to try to make him into someone (something) else. They’ll both be happier if she encourages his existing strengths, rather than trying to reinvent him.
Ironically: By admiring him too much. Women who are married to good men sometimes think so highly of them, they are shocked and horrified to discover that their husbands sin—and get hysterical, rather than dealing with their husbands as fellow, fallen human beings. Admiration is one thing; idolatry is another, and is bound to bring disappointment eventually.
Now, please, let’s not have a woman-bashing party in the comment box. I’m only trying to remind women, myself included, that the Church encourages men to treat their wives with respect—but let’s not take more than we’re entitled to.
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A priest on Relevant Radio was talking about a family in which the father had his daughters (unmarried) make a list of the ten things thehe wanted in a future husband. Then he had them read the list and asked how many of those qualities they, themselves, possessed. I imagine it would be a real eye opener for many of us, to realize that while we are very clear on what we will and will not tolerate in our spouses, it’s not so clear what we ask them to tolerate about us.
Great points! I especially like: “By assuming that everything he does (or doesn’t do) is designed either to please or to annoy her.” I once read an article about how we’re always assuming others are out to get us, to make us angry, to slight us, to inconvenience us, etc. The author went on to point out that “the only person who devotes that much time and energy to thinking about you is….you!”
This seems to be a huge problem, especially when we act as though it is our right to have a husband that makes so much money or has so many material assets. I’ve seen too many men worked into the ground and instead of stopping it their wives keep spending and spending. But you know what? Just as many people say women who dress immodestly are asking for trouble, a man who parades his wealth around (and so many of them do) are asking to be treated as objects rather than people.
The wonderful pastor who married my husband and I gave me an excellent bit of advice before we were married (20 yrs ago). He said “look at him now, with everything you love as well as everything you don’t love. All his qualities, and all his faults. THIS is whom you are promising to marry and to stay with forever. Not the version of him that you think he will become.”
Right on! I’m all for chivalry and exposing the lies and harm of porn, but I’m also for fairness. If it’s possible for men to use women, then it’s possible for women to use men, as well. We should all be on guard, and thank you for reminding us that.
I am guilty of the last one, and I can see the effects of this line of thinking after five years of marriage. It wasn’t til I realized that I was “idolizing” him that I realized I was setting myself up for disappointment by expecting perfection from him. Since then, I’ve been working on not only recognizing that he’s human, but trying to encourage him though he does fall. It’s pretty liberating when you realize this!
I like posts like these, you know, the ones that remind us that God calls EVERYONE to perfection and we all are works in progress. :) Men are not the only ones who struggle, and their issues are not the only ones that matter. How can they be who they are supposed to be when we don’t treat them like they are supposed to be treated? And how can we be the women we are meant to be if they don’t do the same??? God made the relationship cyclical on purpose, so that the burden of success never fell on one person alone.
You know who else I have to make an effort not to treat like an object? Our priests. It’s awful to admit, but by living with my husband day after day did I learn to be less selfish and self-centered. Yet my fall-back attitude with my priest is, “He should be doing XYZ.” Luckily we had a pastor that could lovingly say, “Yes, that IS a good idea, how can you implement that? What kind of time can you spend on that?” Now I think twice before imposing my “Great Idea” on the priest and I try to remember him on his birthday, holidays and Father’s Day. But, man do I find my train of thought objectifying!
This is an interesting post. I’ve never thought of things this way. It’s been my observation over these last few years that when marriages break up, more often than not, the divorce is initiated by the woman. And her poor husband is left bewildered and broken while the woman claims she “never loved him.”
Maybe there was not so much any one of these list items that tore apart those marriages, but a little of all of them, objectifying the whole role of husband and father to the point that she never considered what she could do for the man, only what he could do for her.
This is great! We talked about this alot in graduate school (treating people like objects). It’s not good and just shows our narcissim.
Couldn’t romance novels and most romantic comedies be consider a woman’s version of pornography? Seems to me they are “emotional porn.” While nowhere near as destructive as mainstream pornography, I think to some degree they can make women objectify men. “How can this man make me feel like like I did after I watched When Harry Met Sally?”
@ Sam Alzheimer, Totally agree with you. Romantic movies/books can be a problem. It can make you unsatisfied with the “tigliness quotient” in your own relationship, and wistful for the days when “he looked at me like that.” That can foster this modern notion that if your relationship doesn’t still have that new car smell, it is over and done. I like to think it is the old married couple who have been together for 60 years that we should try to model our relationships after: a peaceful and constant love that has weathered storms to become stronger. People like the stories of the crazy new love, where you “can’t help yourself” and you can sacrifice for it in many ways. We need to strive for the crazy *strong* love that won’t allow us to give up and leads you to be truly unselfish for the long haul.
I would like to add to stereotype men that they are all pigs….No they are not but I sure think so when one makes me beyond pissed….
“Couldn’t romance novels and most romantic comedies be consider a woman’s version of pornography?”
I stopped reading romance novels several years ago because I realized I was looking for the perfect man they described. With every perfection and who’s one sin is some misunderstanding (he care’s too much and I’m scared). It sets a very unrealistic expectation of a real relationship (that and the “it was great sex so it must be love” got old real quick)
Women, and men, in pornography exist either as models, or actors and actresses, or both as models and actors, or actresses—they stimulate a fantastic world, a habitat without consequences, and it is business; like male and female models referred to as coat-racks, then there is the identity of an actor, or an actress, or both an actor and an actress, to consider—an identity washed away by a stage name, or a character such as Superman—somewhat of a difference—what the article did is good: I felt a little elevated, that a woman can see what she does in some relevant to many manner, that debases a man; of course, my mind turned to those women, and men, of pornography, whom seemingly objectify for the pleasure of more than a few, both men, and women. The simple use of contraception would appear to objectify both men, and women, and as a fantasy goes—sexual intercourse seemingly is a fantasy lived both in marriage, and outside it, and the desire for marriage seemingly is corrupted with issues of sexually transmitted diseases; economic woes, and self-preservation of ones own economic, and social, and political class, and understandably so—given the apparent corruption of all. The pleasure, or thrill, experienced can be a problem to experiencing true contrition: such things can feel a little too good for an apology to exist. We do sometimes more quickly than others, come to despise our sin(s).
“Then I get a good night’s sleep or eat some protein…” Now isn’t that the truth. It’s funny because it’s true!
There’s another way men are objectified by society. the secular culture regularly assumes all men are thinking about sex all of the time. They are expected to want it whenever offered, and be almost incapable of saying no. This is hard on young men who wish to be virtuous. And this kind of thinking helps to objectify men in the eyes of women as well.
im sure there are some women who resort to watching pornography too!
Good article though, very thought provoking (and reassuring to a bloke!!)
Simcha, you and I have been on the same wavelength lately. Thanks for this post!
Interesting post. You bring up an important point that acting out ones lustfully disordered thoughts is not the only form of objectifing sin of another. Thank you. But… as a guy. I read awhile back that a priest was retiring from being a ‘confession’ priest in the vatican. He spent hours a day hearing confessions (for 35 years!) and he said, (paraphrasing) ‘it boils down to this: for men its the sin of lust and for woment the sin of pride. That sums it up.’ Could a future post explain the whole sin of pride that women struggle with? maybe the various dimensions?
thanks
Thank you for this. As a wife
& new Mom I really needed this.
@ Ranting Catholic Mom:
“They are expected to want it whenever offered, and be almost incapable of saying no. This is hard on young men who wish to be virtuous.”
Right on. A young man is expected to be all-sexual-all-the-time, and of course is going to face being called a derogatory word for “homosexual” if, God forbid, he’s trying to be chaste or won’t participate in sexually slurring young women. Add the ubiquitous pornography, and it is *extremely* difficult for young men these days.
@ Simcha Fischer:
“But after a certain point, a man has to care for himself, too.”
Haha. It almost sounds as if the woman’s needs are first order, and the man’s are just a necessary function. I dare say a man ought to take care of himself first, seeing as how womens’ capacity for this stuff is without limit. And I don’t mean it in a misogynistic way; just that men can’t continue to cash emotional checks without making deposits, if you see what I mean.
@SGreydanus: Your post reminded me about this {read it somewhere on the net from a secular poster} I try to remind people about it, when it comes up..I think it’s pretty truthful in a funny way.
“Men marry thinking that she will never change—because he likes her the way she is. And then she changes, and he’s all, “Huh? What? Why did you change?! This is false advertisement, Fraud!”
Women marry thinking that he will change—because she doesn’t actually like him that way but rather wants something different. And then he does not change, and she’s all, “Huh? What? Why are you not changing? I didn’t want you the way I married you. I wanted you different!”
My point is one should never marry unless they want them EXACTLY the way they are now. He’s not going to change. And now I’ll say something harsh, but it’s meant in good will: you’re a fraud if you go into a marriage wanting him to change, because you’re not advertising yourself truthfully. The act of the marriage ceremony means you want the “model” standing next to you. You’re saying that you want the car, the computer, the widget, the thing there next to you in that specific configuration with those specific features. That’s what you’re buying. You’re telling everybody that’s the model that you want.
If that’s not the model that you want, then don’t “buy” it. Get out of the store. Don’t defraud him or her.”
Love is selflessness, its giving of yourself to others. The modern day problem is everyone’s pride/selfishness. Now days, people hurt others to feel better themselves. Which is twice as bad. And for christian men such as myself, finding a loving woman is hard. And I was brought up being told men are nasty creatures, and all of the women in my life bullied me. And a few years ago I found out the truth. You are what you do, and not what others say you do.
Props to the comments addressing addictions to “romance” literature and film. I encourage women to toss their copies of the Twilight series and to stop re-watching the last ten minutes of all the latest BBC productions of Jane Austen’s novels on YouTube. Try *reading* Austen, from cover to cover. Austen would be the first to say that minds saturated by extreme romanticism are dangerous. Women like these willingly let self-created delusions ruin their life. Marriages in her novels were based on reality, not fantasy. Thanks, Simcha. Great article! Let us get to know the men around us for who they are in reality, and not what we project onto them.
A great article, thank you.
It’s a mistake to think that men DON’T think about sex all the time. Not all men are the same of course, but especially before I hit 35, all I wanted to do was fight other men and “chase” women. I mean that is it. (Thank God I have learned how to actually love and to appreciate on a different plane. The slight drop in testosterone has also helped make the world a bit safer. Ha.) Yes, men DO struggle with this ALL the time. It is THE single most difficult part of being a Catholic man as far as I am concerned anyway. In fact, I sometimes feel that it was easier to be a combat soldier and face flying bullets than to fight to “not look”, etc. Maybe this is because I am a bit of a cave man. Ug! But all the men I know are exactly the same. Exercising that kind of “mind control” really is true heroism. If you only knew.
But, WOW! What does a man have to do to be idolized by his wife?! I’d take some of that ANY day. (Even just for a SECOND.) Some women seem to be un-please-able, which makes grown men like me want to cry. Really.
Meanwhile I am going to get my wife some more protein and let her sleep in! (I haven’t tried that yet.)
Simple Man,
I’ve known men who think as you do, and others who don’t. I guess it’s like the problems women have with objectifying men. Some do, some don’t. Some of us do it sometimes, some not at all.
The one thing that helped me to love my husband more than anything else was to have a son.
We would need to build a huge database to categorize all the varied ways that a (mother, husband, child) could objectify a (father, wife, sibling) and we could all probably spend a lifetime adding new entries to such a database.
I guess that is one more reason to be glad I can go to Reconciliation!
I again read through some of the points, Simcha mentioned in her article, which appear to objectify men, and I thought back to a book I read concerning both matrimony, and engagement—it seems, that it mentioned something from Bishop Fulton Sheen—matrimony among Catholics in particular, must exist for ends, as a means, to something greater than bride and groom: God must be intrinsic, which may go without saying, given the nature of a sacrament; still, when we regard parents as a means to handing the faith to their children, and the relationship between parents as also between themselves, and God, then it seems: these matters of a husband on a pedastel, or a husband as the sole means of a wife’s affections, or the husband as an adversary of the wife—it seems these matters are resolved by the love, they orient their children to God, and themselves as well. It’s an intellectual statement on my part, neither having been married, nor having been part of bringing children into the world. Whether or not anything I wrote prior to this is supportive of the following point: we have many needs in life to satisfy, and very often our attention is given more to these, than attempts to bring children into the world. Of course, I’m single and therefore, my needs in life are lessened without having to be concerned about sexual relations; irregardless of the fact, that I, as a human animal, have a sex-drive.
“Well, if a man knew what a woman was thinking about him, he would never stop going, ” . . . Huh???”
BWAHAHAHAHA. (Apparently I have a little too much experience with this, because my kids stopped to look at me when I burst into laughter at reading this.)
Oh I didn’t mean to suggest that all men are as extreme an example, or are “cave man-ish” but they nearly all do tend to struggle with this issue mightily. For those of us who “have it worse”, it is hopefully going to just turn out to be the main path for our salvation. (When I put this aside, it is like I slayed a dragon. Great feeling, but tough fight every single time. Every single day.)
(Just as there are many women who tend to have to put up a heroic fight in order to maintain and even mood, these are crosses we get to bear. )
On the subject of comparing the effect pornography has on men to something similar in women’s lives, for some time now I have thought that some glossy real-estate/gardening/furniture brochures are a form of ‘porn’ for women. They covet a false ‘reality’ which the man cannot provide.
http://levitersalsalis70.blogspot.com/2011/08/soft-porn-for-women.html
To me that doesn’t seem exactly analogous to pornographic objectification. I’m starting to think porn has no feminine analogue. Unless it’s possibly something related to pride as one of the comments mentions…I don’t know. It does seem like all of those points could be collapsed into the first one, which amounts basically to being controlling. But somehow romance novels and real estate brochures just seem less threatening than hard-core porn. Maybe women just plain have less destructive power than men all around.
Yes, I agree with the article, and will say to my shame that I really didn’t actually have an interior conviction that my husband had feelings—just like I do—until several years into marriage. I knew that he could be angry, but it really hadn’t sunk in that he could be hurt, or bewildered, or scared, like me. It made me a lot more careful with my words and behavior; duh. What a dork I was, and still am.
@Thomas, women do not seem to have such a strong sensual temptation as that which porn offers to men, but I think that there is something similar, something addictive to women—to feel loved and lovable. Women are so susceptible to this that we will go to great lengths for it, and if we can’t find that feeling legitimately, we will settle for being physically desirable only. And if we can’t have that, we will fantasize about it. That’s where the romance novels and movies come in, and also why women will settle for being objectified. That need for being loved is so strong.
I like what the author has to say about these stereotypes, and agree with the poster(s) who said we should add the “pig” and sexually-driven stereotype. I think these ones tend to fly under the radar somehow, but they’re just as important - maybe even more important - to address. What man would really want all his accomplishments - intellectual, physical, spiritual, etc. - completely disregarded because he’s perceived as being a slave to his sex drive? It puts a huge stumbling block between him and any female he chooses to befriend, date, or marry because they constantly worry about all men’s intentions, even when faced with a good man with good intentions. The stereotype can even throw into question a man’s ability to raise children on his own, or act as a babysitter or childcare worker. I realize that men seem to struggle with lust more (at least, that’s what society and the church tell us on a consistent basis). But I fear too much emphasize on this one thing to the exclusion of deepr issues, even when intended to protect women from being hurt, can backfire and cause a world of hurt for both men and women.
I am going to bookmark this entry, and return to it frequently. To remind myself that marriage isn’t all about me!
To AS-
I think sometimes the issue isnt so much that the bride is wanting her groom to change after the wedding ceremony but, as she herself goes thru a shift in perspectives at some point, wether its due to motherhood, growing up, more responsibility, becoming more serious about faith, etc. and she hopes her husband would have the same perspective. (Now I’m not saying that this is good logic.) People each are on their own paths (hopefully to holiness.)
But, for a (stupid) example, I have to say that I didn’t really care what videogames my husband played prior to marriage but now I’m annoyed when he buys a rated ‘M’ game in front of our preteen son even if he doesnt allow him to play it. And, yes, we talked about how to raise children in pre-cana, and were on the same page. My point is, you can’t run thru every possible situation you will encounter with adding how your whole world-view changes once you hold your precious baby in your arms, or the Holy Spirit smacks some sense into you. In reality, even little decisions a spouse makes can have an affect of the level of respect the other feels when you’re not on the same page. In an ideal world, couples would make that progress together but, it’s obviously not an ideal world. sorry so rambling….
Thank you for sharing your article. I needed to hear these thoughts at this time in my life, maybe a little sooner.
Simcha, thank you for writing this article. I never thought I would see an article like this in such a public place. It also does my heart good to see that it is being received well by your commenters.
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The reality of the objectification of men goes even deeper than what you covered here (and I thought your article was good). Both the Church and the overall society are for the most part unaware of and indifferent to the inner lives of men, a fact which has profound and pervasive implications for all areas of human life on both sides of the gender divide. My contention is that every man’s life is fundamentally dehumanized for he is never free to be human in the full sense of that word. Regardless of the circumstances, a man must always keep most of his vulnerability - his humanity - carefully hidden. If we would begin, as a people, to explore the lives of men with eyes of compassion and understanding - valuing the man himself and not merely the utilitarian purposes he can serve - and to trace out all the many deleterious effects dehumanized masculinity has on our world, I believe we would, quite frankly, be shocked to discover just how deep this particular rabbit hole goes, for women and men are not nearly so different as most of us seem to believe. It would be a challenging and difficult project for all of us, men and women alike, but it would bring so much peace to this world.
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Feminism has caused a lot of problems, but in breaking out real issues in the relationship between man and woman, it has also opened wild new doors prior generations could never have imagined entering. I truly do not think the sexes have had such an opportunity for love since the Fall. Really I don’t. There is a remarkable chance locked inside this historical moment. Who knows how long we will have our window of opportunity? We should seize the moment while it’s still ours, before evil gathers again and plunges us back into the darkness… in whatever new way it will find for us this time.
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So we have worked hard as a society to improve women’s lives, and while there is still more work to be done, it is also my most ardent hope that we will begin to do the same for men as well… though I understand many people today scoff at the idea any work has to be done for men at all! But that is precisely the problem: we don’t care to find out what’s happening with the guys.
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Thank you, Simcha, for this article, and it’s my sincere hope that it won’t be the last of its kind that I see in the public square.
Glad to see so many admit that it’s a lie to characterize men as pigs who can not stop themselves from wanting and desiring sex from their wives 24/7.
Oh that this lie would be exposed when it comes to NFP. When NFP comes up, suddenly we all revert back to the baseless belief that chastity is a great good because it helps women not be sexually available all the time to their husbands. Chastity is a good thing for other reasons, NOT because we think men can’t keep off their spouses. The “men are pigs” card gets played in NFP discussions only out of convenience and it’s reprehensible.
Which one is it, people? Do men want sex all the time or not? Or do they only want it all the time when one is practicing NFP?
As a virginal Catholic man in his late thirties, I cannot count how many times I have heard women make disparaging remarks about “men” in general and about unmarried men in particular. Each matter-of-fact statement that dehumanizes and disrespects men makes me wince inside and despair a little more of ever being able to find a woman I could reciprocally trust and respect.
I should create a T-shirt with the slogan: “Not all men are like that.” Or I could make one with an epic paragraph explaining why I’m still single after all these years (years of secular college, followed by seminary, and then temporary vows as a monk that were not followed by lifelong vows). It seems a single man at my age is assumed to be promiscuous, homosexual or seriously messed up in the head.
My father’s advice before my marriage expresses this concept rather succinctly: Don’t treat your spouse like a major household appliance. They’ve been married 37 years now.
Men for whom Simcha’s article strikes a chord would do well to read a small series of lectures, available online at no charge to the reader, that were written this year by Adam Kostakis. A quick reading would only take about an hour but they are thought-provoking to say the least. They are, really, a matter of public interest. Bookmark them if you don’t have the time to read them now.
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http://gynotheory.blogspot.com/
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Blessings,
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David
Great reminders. Thanks so much, Simcha!
My wife and I have really become annoyed at how men and women are portrayed on television and in the movies. They push the unrealistic versions of men as either overly awesome single hot guy or as the overly bumbling idiot simpleton can do no right husband. This type of thing invades our culture insidiously this way to target a woman’s thinking, and men tend to use it as an excuse to let themselves go a bit since “that is just how we are”. But I challenge people to stop seeing each other as those TV people want us to see. Learn to realize we all have faults AND good qualities. Husbands and wives get out of their relationships what they put into them. Put in time, effort, and a lot of love and you get back 10 fold what you put into it.
Or when the wife is constantly harping on money, or constantly correcting her spouse, especially in front of others….Great way to get the husband to clam up…
Sadly, the making of the other into an object is done by both genders. Corporations do the same and our popular media and the popular stars and political parties do the same to the public or to themselves to sell, have us buy or sspread their message which is so anti-life, sad and tired of life and bored.
I once read that romance novels are to women what porn is to men. In other words, wishing for the impossible prince charming that will woo you and sweep you off your feet, and all those unhealthy expectations we can place on men thanks to the false standard of the romance novel. Thanks for your great insight.
I cannot believe I feel compelled this strongly to defend romance as a genre. But I’m a writer and reader, so I won’t let it go.
Romance novels are not the work of the devil, nor do they promise women perfect men (seriously? I’ve never read a novel that has the ideal man in it). Like anything in the world, novels can be used inappropriately or too much, but they are not inherently wrong.
I am a lover. Therefore I read romance novels (clean ones). But I never find myself wishing I’d married a man “just like so-and-so” because they are FICTIONAL. I married my husband. HE was my choice, not some character in a book or tv show. I like to read stories of people falling in love. I find nothing wrong with that.
Maybe people are thinking of junk romance novels? I don’t know. But I read good romance novels.
There are different personality types, mature and immature and in between. Therefore different types will read or not read some types of literature depending on their maturity, psychological development. General observations can be made but cannot refer to everyone.
I admire how you humbly consider the possible flip-side to reducing a person to a series of desirable traits when God loves us in mind, body, and spirit, and calls us to love one another the same way.
Men or women get into trouble when we don’t value others and treat them as though we were spending time, living with, or ministering to Christ Himself.
It’s when we think we’ve got it all figured out and are above wrongdoing that we often fall the hardest; at least that’s been true in my case.
Thanks for sharing!
Mary S, I agree that the romance genre is certainly legitimate… but it needs to be more clearly differentiated from erotica. Not all romance novels are erotica, but a lot of them are, and women read them for the sex.
That being said, do you have any good romances to recommend? :-D
Meredith… the Nonesuch by Georgette Heyer.
In the Theology of the Body talks, JPII says at some point that the weakness of women is the assumption that their feelings define reality. When I read that, it made me say, “They don’t?” I just never gave any thought to the fact of how automatically I allowed what I felt to equal “what is”. It was a very freeing & humbling realization that touches on Simcha’s “Huh?” point and, maybe, on the point of the Vatican confessor who said women’s sins tend to be pride-centered.
Meredith, Anna is right - ANYTHING by Georgette Heyer. I am currently reading Lady of Quality by her, and just finished The Grand Sophy. I love Devil’s Cub. I have liked a few DeAnne Gist novels. If you are Catholic, read Redeeming Love by Francine Rivers at your own risk. I stand by the suggestion that it has anti-Catholic tendencies.
I sway toward historical and Christian romances, which rarely involve anything “fast”. If I find myself reading one of those books, it’s usually by accident, and I skip over those pages (kind of like if you have to avert your eyes in a tv show or movie).
The reason I so avidly defended the genre before is that in my time reading Christian romance, I got so tired and bored with the Christian, but not specifically Catholic, memes. Catholics need to write romances! If there’s one thing Catholics should know how to do, it is LOVE. And if there’s one audience with a gaping wide hole where there should be an abundance of literature, it’s light Catholic romance. Catholics shouldn’t have to make the choice between non-romance Catholic fiction and “light” Christian romance.
...Why, yes, I AM currently writing a romance novel… ;)
Good sharong on here about the sexuality of M and F. As to the novel, the Catholic Christian contribution to the culture has to be sacramentality, not just love although love is included. Sacramentality sees God in the whole of creation and that adn wea re holy. Not sacramental in the narrow sense of seven sacraments, but even they of course honour that priniple, God reveals His love for us in the Sacrament, who is Christ the God who became Man and continues His Covenant of uncnditional forgiveness as Bread and Wine which become His Body and Blood. Protestantism for the most part sees human flesh as corrupt and has no real theology of Sacrament which is why most outside the High Church Anglicans and Lutherans have no real belief in them. I recommend Father Richard Rohr of the Center for Applied Contemplation (? exact name) and his upoming Breathing Under Water, he ahd a tape by that name in earlier years OR go online - his name- to receive excerpts daily. Peace
Women only want security from men. That’s it. Nothing else. Physical, financial, emotional and spiritual security.
Which makes some sense, but a man who is sick, or insecure (depressed - whatever), or not making enough cash, is heading for divorce. Women can’t stand a “weak” man. They marry him for his strength in all areas, then suddenly, when he can’t give her all she expects it’s CYA later, don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
(OK really it is more like, “I am just not happy anymore. I just don’t feel the same about you as I did before and am not “in love” with you.” “Oh Bob and I are just friends” “Oh those people on Facebook are just acquaintances.” “OH would you mind signing these divorce papers?” “Sorry it wasn’t meant to be”)
Not bitter at all. Just making an observation.
Anon,
Guess my mil didn’t get that memo when she spent years caring for her incapacitated husband.
Hey Babs:
Your MIL had feelings for another man which helped distract her. That “man” was Jesus. I should have clarified in my remarks two things:
1. A woman is first attracted to a man for security, if this leaves the man is done for unless:
2. We are talking about a good Christian woman. In that case she may be able to goodness in sacrificial love.
Most women in today’s world are not the good Christian kind. Many supposed Christians are until the rubber hits the road. (Most men aren’t either!)
AnonYmous, not O there you are too cynical about men and women and human nature in general, despite your apparent Christian Faith.
Possibly Anon, but I also know she adored her husband. You read that right, adored him in his brokeness and wanted to bring him joy in his miserable state. What you said about women is simplistic and ignorant. I also imagine my mil wouldn’t pass your “good Christian” test considering other aspects of her life. Just a guess from your comments.
Babs - Needed to hear something like that. Thank you.
I am not ignorant. Just bitter, having seen this repeat over, and over, and over again among friends, family, in the media, and to myself.
Your MIL sounds like she was an exceptional woman. That makes her - an exception - these days and in this culture. You may want to look around outside your own circle at this culture we live in - which is far and away larger than the Christian culture. Girls (and boys too) are growing up learning life is all about them, and in ways and to a degree that children never were before.
The message in the media is overwhelming. Girls grow up learning to be selfish and that a man is someone who brings them cash and is there for “them”. Boys are taught that women are for sex and household chores. And couples marry when they “have fun” with each other and “get along”. When that stops happening, whoops, “wasn’t meant to be”. “I’m not happy anymore.” Because it is all about them.
Maybe you are right. Maybe I am cynical, but I am pointing out a REALITY that is the norm right now in western culture. It is extremely sad to see. Simcha is correct when she says that men and women objectify each other.
Last: It is normal and natural for women to want “security” from men. Men are designed to deliver that, and women are designed to need some of it. (If the cave women are home taking care of the babies, the cave men BETTER be out hunting to bring home some actual bacon, or they will all end up eating grass - we evolved this way.) What is not RIGHT, though, is for a man to become nothing more than that. And, I am sorry if you disagree, but in today’s culture, both men and women tend to live by the mantra “What have you done for me lately?” and “What’s in it for me.”
We (in the west) bow down to the god of money and self satisfaction, not the God of Sacrifice and of love.
Sorry for my bitter tone. I really do have faith that this can change and I recognize that there are MANY women (and men) who live their lives against this culture.
One can agree with the cultural pattern here. But I am convinced after a long lifetime of working and dealing with people inside the culture,including as professor, that this is more of a media-driven apparently “everyone is doing it” mentality. There are films and some TV popular programs that show serious explorations of the “Me” versus “Them” dilemma to make it “Us.” Many families work with that, as do teachers and youth group leaders, churches and elsewhere. Never forget that Evil is absence of good, so its apparent victory is not really grounded in Being. Good is guided, corrected and strenghtened by the Holy Spirit who is active in each person and institution. He is God regardless of the capacity for Sin we each and our institutions have. Look what happened Nazism, Communism and Slavery not that long ago in the memory of our civilisation. The youth today are already turning against abortion as they miss siblings and classmates and fellow workers. Give them time to work out an antidote to the popular Culture of Death with their affirmation of Life and the sacredness of Human Life and the conduct that flows from it. They have seen Hell and are wondering if this is it.
Anon,
I did not mean to disparage you, but did feel a bit defensive at your original posts. Why? Because I hear your message everyday from pop cultural sources, but what I have been surrounded by does not reflect that. Why do the examples in my life get tossed aside as exceptions? There are so many of us!
You tell me to look outside my circle. Why? Why should I seek friends who disparage my lifestyle and live for themselves? Why should I have women friends who look at their husbands as cash cows? Why shouldn’t I use the great examples in front of my face as sources of strength in a world that denies the benefit of a selfless existence? Why?
You say women just want men for security. Isn’t that what we all want in a relationship? The problem is what some think represents security is truly just a selfish approach to a very real human need. I hope to spend my days making my husband feel peace and joy. I know that I’m terrible at it, that I get overwhelmed with the demands on my time. I also know nothing brings me more happiness than for him to walk into a home with homework done, dinner ready and music blaring. Why? Because his joy is the true key to my own happiness. We should all be so blessed.
Very lovely witness, thanks Babs
Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth to Anon’s remarks. Certainly there are pockets where, as Babs notes, women (and men) are different from the ones Anon describes. On the other hand, as a man, I must say that I am routinely baffled and alarmed by the obliviousness and lack of concern some women have toward men, whether I see it on television, hear it in the remarks of women friends, or hear it in conversations between women I pass on the street. There seems to be a growing sense among women that it is acceptable to treat men however they please, even that life is their playground. I agree with Anon and I am alarmed by what I am seeing.
That attitude is the fruit of the Fruis who were the extremist feminists. It will disappear as today’s youth correct and restore the balance.
David,
This is my last comment, but I will say this. All humans objectify each other. It’s part of our fallen nature to treat one another as “less than”, and it stinks. My husband does it to me, and I do it to him. (Seriously, you should see us after many sleepless nights and a kid starts crying at 2AM. All each of us wants is the other to do it, no matter the cost to the spouse.)
And I’m grateful to hear you guys out because I realize I’m guilty of complaining about the things my husband does. I do it with humor usually because I KNOW I’m not perfect, but another guy walking by might mistake me as “one of those women”. So, I do appreciate the reflection that while I may think I’m being harmless because the person I’m talking to knows my husband is truly the best person I’ve ever met, a spectator might be hurt by me.
But, please try to remember that cynicism is not of God. Not every woman out there, even the ones complaining about their husbands, is guilty of looking upon her spouse as a servant. We are all fallen and we are all guilty and we all need a little extra loving. So if you want a loving woman in your life, try to be the most loving person you can be. And may God help you protect your heart.
@Babs:
It is easy to see from your posts that you are a beautiful person, and that is great. (Yes, really! Your husband is blessed!) But my position is that you are among the FEW. (That may mean MILLIONS, but I am comparing that to hundreds of millions who do not feel and act as you do.) I have lived and worked all around the world and I have seen the same thing everywhere.
By suggesting you “look around” I only mean that sticking your head in the sand about how horrific our culture has become doesn’t help us to fix it. I certainly DON’T think you should have friends who act this way. Stick with the friends you have! I am just saying be aware of how others - especially younger people think and act these days.
Maybe it is true that this is mainly media driven, but I don’t think so. Television and movies are OVERWHELMINGLY negative, but they are popular because they reflect the current culture. I am not the person who came up with the term “culture of death”. (In fact, I think it may have been Blessed Pope JPII.) This descriptor exists for a reason.
I personally think that, despite the good that is around, western culture is circling the rim of the toilet to hell. Even Jesus, Himself told us of the narrow gate, that many are called, but few are chosen, etc. Our Lady of Fatima showed the children how many souls go to hell. Why should we be surprised, then, that most people are NOT answering God’s call?
So, it seems silly to think that because some of us are blessed with a great parish, friends, and community, that San Francisco and Manhattan don’t exist. That 67% of all black babies aren’t aborted, etc. You see what I am saying? (OK, don’t mean to pick on SF, NYC or certainly not black mothers, just examples.)
Sorry, again, if I seem like Mr. Negative here. But I personally don’t fight until someone pushes me - VERY hard. And this is a spiritual battle we are in right now. So pointing out what I thought was obvious seems helpful. It seems to me that you are on the leading edge of those waging the war on the side of good - just by BEING good yourself. But my only point is to mention how in my experience the vast majority of women today treat men. (I think men, due to pornography, mostly treat women worse, but that wasn’t the point of Simcha’s posting.)
As for men wanting security from women. On a sociological level I would disagree. I think that men want women who are physically attractive, and nurturing types who seem that they would make good mothers and maintain the household well. (This means, smart, organized, empathetic, etc.) That’s not what I meant by security. Men aren’t looking for a woman to provide them with shelter, be able to lift heavy stuff, fight, and look healthy enough to be good hunters.
Look I know there is a lot of stuff in my posts that maybe seems to not make sense, but hopefully you get what I am saying. I am not the world’s best communicator. (I am all about providing security! HA!) But I will stick by the argument that the vast majority of women these days have security on the top of their wish list because most women are NOT practicing Christians. Are they?
I don’t know where you live, but it sounds like a great place. We can pray that they rest of the world will follow.
Babs, I want to say, with Anon, that you sound like a beautiful person, and yes, a blessing to your husband. Everything you’ve said is true.
At the same time, though, your comments and mine do not contradict each other. They are perfectly consonant. My comment was not meant as an indictment against you or any woman here or any particular woman at all. It was not meant to say all women are horrible human beings and there’s just no hope left for us guys. Nor was it intended to deny that women, in their own lives, face objectification from men. Like AnonOmous said, it may be the case that women face it worse than we do. And I, for my part, am certainly a part of the problem, as I am hardly a model Christian.
But you know, of course, and said yourself, it goes both ways. I think AnonOmous makes a good point when he mentions the narrow gate. Mentioning that a lot of women tend more to use than love should not raise any eyebrows. Our Lord already called it. I suppose it’s like saying the sky is blue. But I am not hearing in reply, “Well, duh, David! Who doesn’t know that?” and I knew I would not get that response. Again, I am only echoing AnonOmous at this point, but just as the one who follows Christ is the exception rather than the rule, you, Babs, are the exception, rather than the rule. I’ve had a lot of women friends, young and old, and of course I encounter women in my daily life. You say it’s just the media, but I’m not so sure, Babs. I really think things are getting worse. I have met some truly beautiful women, and for that I will always be grateful. Recently I encountered one such woman and the word that immediately came to mind was ‘consecrated’; though I could see from her wedding ring that she was, strictly speaking, not consecrated, at least not in the sense that a woman religious might be consecrated, I had the sure sense this woman belonged to God, and my disposition toward her was one of reverence and respect, because for all the bad things I do, I feel certain one way to really tick off the Creator is to disrespect a woman who loves Him, and conversely, one way to show one’s love for the Creator is to treat with kindness and respect a woman who is devoted to Him. So - praise God for women like these; maybe one day I will also be a good Christian. Unfortunately, however, I’ve met many more women who just plain frighten me. And believe me, a woman can frighten a man, especially today. It is not like it used to be. I get the impression I am almost not entitled to legal protection, never mind social protection, simply because I am male, should a conflict arise with a woman. So it is that men my age simply capitulate to women these days. I see it all the time. You can’t think we all like what we see happening around us. And I’ve met other young men who feel as I do. Surprisingly, older men don’t seem to get it. I don’t understand that and… it just scares me even more. I have met other guys my age who don’t see things as I do, so maybe I’m crazy, but I don’t think I’m totally crazy. And frankly I think a lot of these guys are either too conditioned by the culture to see what’s happening or too scared to call an ace an ace and a spade a spade.
I think a man should be free to say these things. It’s only because we don’t that things keep getting worse for all of us. Contrary to what some women say, there are not many misogynists here in the United States. Most men, at least in my experience, like women a great deal, and far from wanting to abuse them flee in terror from the mere suggestion that they have done so. And so the men are scattered today, and our bridge with the past has temporarily been destroyed; but when we return, so to speak, we are going to clean house and put this civilization back in order. For now, it’s my impression that the night is still young.
Okay, for real my last comment!
Thanks for the sweet remarks, I am certain you both are totally wrong about me. However, I stand by my warning against cynicism. Maybe because I never really cared if I married or was single. Maybe because I am in a marriage that is respectful and even at its worst, a relationship that both people want to succeed. Maybe I am an exception to have parents who remained married, and married a man whose parents remained married. And maybe God has protected me from all these ugly relationship dramas because he knows I’m too weak to weather them without losing hope. I don’t have a good answer.
I’m so painfully aware of the selfish world we live in. I see it all day everyday and I see it infect me and my family in small ways. I see it take over like kudzu when we don’t nip it in the bud. Sin is like that. But since I am a person who is guilty of letting these things get me down, I’ve also become a person who won’t tolerate this kind of melodrama in my thinking. This sadly leads me into wanting to smack anyone who even hints at losing hope. Definitely not charitable.
The state of the way men are treated grieves me. That a man can’t even have a say if his child lives or dies before it’s born is worse than tragic. If I knew ancient Greek I could probably find the right word. That men are treated like children by their wives even to the point of some women saying I’m having my sixth child b/c of my husband is like a child, makes me mad. Men, good men, are to be as honored and revered as any good woman. There is nothing like a good man, and I’ll defend the male gender always. Guys do get a bad rap.
All that to say, yep David, I agree. But I’m gonna have to speak up if I think there’s hopelessness in someone’s tone. Because that’s wrong too.
I am at sea at the moment leading the life of a monk. I am due on shore in 23 days time after a 4 month stint. To all you girls out there! Please treat me as an object.
Ps neildenholm@hotmail.com
Have not been alerted to this topic for a while. My Christmas season has alerted me to the fact that as noted all of us are flawed and wwe need redemption, not just soins forgiven but growing to the point where our fallen nature is overcome by the Grace of God- as one mystic of our age puts it we know we are spiritual, we have to become FULLY HUMAN. That means seeing sexuality as an integral part of our SPIRITUAL-BODY unit, not “bad” flesh fighting with “noble soul.” There will always be tnose “poor me,” “you never…” moments and the ultimate abuse, destroying the baby we did not want or plan or as is common now, selecting one of conceivde triplets from in vitro fertilisation to get the one. And in too many, but not all cases, dumping one’s long-term wife for a newer “model” or divorce which hurts kids more than it “solves” differences that patience, love and some suffering would allow us to handle. Tne coming to Earth of the God who became HUMAN is the Mystery, the key, the explanation of what Love really is. Have a blessed NEW YEAR and see the Christ in every human face we come across, whether in our own home or the rude person in line at the store. TOUGH lesson, but the only source of the PEACE we desire, need and are worthy of. Pure GIFT of course,
nice post.keep posting good things.
I respectfully disagree with Simcha and many posts on this site. Don’t mean to be harsh or fussy, so excuse me if anyone gets that impression, but women do not objectify men, never have and it would be hard for us to do that, men have all the power. Women really and truthfuly, don’t hurt men unless we are attacking them in retaliation to something they have already done. I don’t mean to be rude, but in my opinion, I believe that the items in Simcha’s list are not examples of objectification. Those are examples of a woman needing help from her man and wanting to be close and having a lot of expectations for him. Those examples are not objectifying a man. None of those examples talked ugly about the man or put him down, or degraded him or made ugly names for his genitals, the way a man does to a woman.
But one post, Thomas, I somewhat go along the same lines with, when he commented that women have less destructive power than men all around.
Some of you may disagree with me, but what men do to women IS much, much, more destuctive. Men criticize everything about women and women’s bodies and have women changing and modifying their bodies from head to toe, to satisfy the fantasties of men and keep them happy. That’s objectifying. They use degrading names for women and women don’t do that to men. They get tired of one their woman when their woman no longer looks 19. We don’t compare their bodies to younger men. They run around on women because they like new and more variety. Women generally speaking,don’t do that.They get us to pose nude, when they themselves won’t pose nude. Now, how in the world can you people say women are anywhere near that?? Men have had all the power over women for a thousand years and no person ever stood up for women. And now that women have begun to start saying no to the objectification, along comes a person who writes an article blaming women for doing the same thing. I don’t believe that a woman wanting to be closer to her man and expecting attention from her man when she is pregnant is what you would call objectifying him. How ridiculous.
To Babs, don’t be too unfair and harsh on women, when a woman says that the man is like a child. He is Babs, because, men can be very selfish and lazy in the home, and very act like a child, when they only play around with the children instead of doing the millions of things that children require and not be a helpful partner in raising them. A lot of strain is indeed put on the wife in that she does most of the childcare, breastfeeds, be pregnant, most of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, putting up with his parents critical eyes and comments of her, trying to keep attractive for him, dealing with her female body issues, from cramos, tbras, to the world telling us to shave eveerything, and even many working outside of the home. The wife does indeed shoulder a lot of responsibility. That’s why women refer to the husband as another child
I am loyal to the members of the female gender because, if you all are honest, you will admit that women have always had to deal with a lot of prsesure, and I call it unfair double standard mess! Don’t turn it around on us now. It’s time for females to rise, demand respect!!
Lovely post.
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