Bravo! Your article aims for and hits the heart of the disturbing trend in modern society, without idealizing or whitewashing bygone eras.  As a Catholic mom trying to raise 3 “pretty” girls and 2 boys trained to respect and protect, THANK YOU for concisely and eloquently laying out their options.

If you hope to find Pretty, you have look away from pop culture. You have to look away from the culture altogether and look to the counter-culture.
The current counter-culture exists within the domestic church.
Spend some time with homeschooling families!
Within our homeschooling community, in our little corner of the world, there are any number of pretty young ladies, growing up to value themselves and the young men that they will someday take as husbands. They are being brought up in a culture where the Theology of the Body is part of daily life. These girls are pretty, inside and out, because they know who they are and they believe that they belong to God first.
I feel so sorry for young women in our society, who feel that in order to be valued, they have to advertise and sell out.
Where are the Dads that look at their little girls and treasure their purity? Who will teach them that they are precious just for who they are?
Who is defending the dignity of young womanhood?
I would feel so little hope if I didn’t know about the youth that attend World Youth Days, the National Catholic Youth Conference, the Youth Rally and Mass at the National March for Life. The numbers are growing. You just have to know where to look.

This article makes the point perfectly!
Something many of us are thinking but have been unable to put into words.
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Let’s bring pretty back!

Very well put! I wholeheartedly agree and have printed this to pass on to my neices at our Christmas gathering. Thank you so much!

It would help if young girls could find more modest clothing to wear too.  Everything has to be cut down to their breasts and they have to wear and undershirt to have any modesty.  Look at the ladies on the news programs, all cut down to “here.”  I frankly and tired of looking at their breasts.  I would like to see something interesting.

Girls need to know you can look pretty and innocent and still have a little sexy look, with a few tiny things. You don’t have to button a blouse to your throat, just cover your breasts. and stop calling them “boobs” that word is disrespectful to a beautiful part of a woman.  And girls stop showing your rear ends!  Everyone has a behind, but do you have to flaunt it? Doing so makes you look cheap, not elegant or a girl of quality.  the way people dress does say a lot about who one is.  And please stop attending Mass in strapless shirts.

So glad you brought up Grease and Sandra Dee’s decision to stoop to Danny’s level. What I always hated from the first time I saw it was the fact that Danny had cleaned himself up and was ready to make a commitment to be the better man for Sandy, but when she shows up with her “hotness,” he doesn’t even have to try anymore (despite the “better shape up” message she’s telling him). The truth is, when girls don’t expect much from men, they won’t get much. When they expect more (in their words and actions), they will get more - it just might take a while for men to get used to the new situation.

The choices of clothing for little girls in the stores these days are appalling.  The designers are pushing “hot” even down to the baby wear!  I went shopping for three PRETTY dresses for my nieces recently (Christmas gifts) and ended up buying toys instead.  If anyone can sew well you should consider starting an on-line business, and PLEASE bring back appropriate colors (i.e. Pastels instead of BLACK)!

A hearty AMEN!

The pendulum does swing. Time sometimes changes things for the better.

A sad irony indeed.  Women’s “liberation” has produced a bitter crop of fruit for women.  What have they gained?  No fault divorce? Look at the stats, men almost always end up wealthier than their ex-wives do. Abortion? The emotional scarring of women here is well documented.  In the end, women have (in many cases) been reduced to sexual objects in a way unimaginable 60 yrs ago.  If only someone had warned us of this…

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Please publish this article in every newspaper, periodical, flyer and
e-mails across the nation.  Thanks.  JCK

I am sixteen and pride myself on being “pretty”. I go to a Catholic High School, where, despite the dress code, girls are notorious for rolling up skirts and wearing skirts that are two short even before they roll them up.

I am pleased to say that my skirt comes down to an inch above the knees.
This kind of dress is what I regularly wear, and I wish that others would too. I know other girls who would probably also dress the same way but feel awkward when everyone else is immodest.

I really do hope that we’ll be able to bring back the “pretty” universally.

I am sixteen and pride myself on being “pretty”. I go to a Catholic High School, where, despite the dress code, girls are notorious for rolling up skirts and wearing skirts that are two short even before they roll them up. I am pleased to say that my skirt comes down to an inch above the knees. This kind of dress is what I regularly wear, and I wish that others would too. I know other girls who would probably also dress the same way but feel awkward when everyone else is immodest. I really do hope that we’ll be able to bring back the “pretty” universally.

Perhaps women don’t need to worry about what men prefer when making their daily choices about clothing and makeup. Women are not objects put on this earth to please men with our appearance. You suggest otherwise with this piece, and in doing so you make women a commodity in the way you allege women’s lib has. The problem you have with women’s rights is not that women have become commodities, but that you, as a man, have no control over those commodities.

I think that most girls don’t consciously discriminate between the two; at least I know I never did until I had a daughter of my own. Hot looks good in a way and is confused with pretty, and older girls and women ought not dress like little girls. Fashion rightly changes as women mature, but often it just goes way too far, and changes far too soon. Although girls do need to take the initiative, it would also be very helpful if men would (tactfully) communicate more clearly what is truly attractive to them on a pretty level. Go shopping with your beloved and pick out a few things you like and ask her what she thinks. Have her try it on, and if it suits her, tell her what you like about it and why. Because often, we just don’t think about it like you do.

LOVE this!  Thank you!  God used you in such a great way!

Wow Jennifer A, hostile much?
How you could even detect hostility in Pat’s writing is beyond me.
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Contrary to your assertion, Pat doesn’t seem to be saying that women should make themselves one way or the other. He says rather plainly that innocence is attractive. That the impression from the movie Grease - that the woman should change to please the man… was disturbing, even to his younger, innocent mind.
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How, when a man says, “You don’t have to put on the red light.” a woman gets offended, is beyond me!
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Even so, I have a friend who is dedicated to a simple, pretty appearance. No make-up, no highlights for her hair… and she dresses modestly.  I, while still modest - would never leave the house without makeup! and I feel prettier when my hair looks vibrant. —- but that doesn’t mean I have to wear revealing clothes.  But, when I want to wear a neckline that pushes the modesty envelope… well, that’s my choice.  If I had a boyfriend who said, “Hon, that’s too revealing.” I might reconsider.
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we are here to serve one another ... and also to protect one another… guard each other’s hearts.
when we do that, there is no entitlement on either side.

@Pat
Your article should be renamed “the death of sexual innocence.” Knowledge and independence shall forever be cherished.

To the youth -
  Don’t let your parents, teachers, priests, or peers make your life decision for you! Learn from them, but realize they are not you. They may be acting in empathy, but sometimes they won’t be looking at things from your understanding.
  It’s perfectly fine to be sexually inactive, but don’t let that hinder you from learning about sex and sexual education. It’s a good habit to not overindulge in sex (whether it be premarital or during marriage). There can be life changing consequences to your actions - unwanted pregnancies (trust me, this term isn’t made up), sexual transmitted infections, broken friendships, and habitual cravings.
  In reference to the many comments about clothes, fashion, etc. All trends will come and go - whether it be makeup, big breasts, or long thin legs. Realize that what you wear on your outside allows others to make impressions of you. There’s a time and a place for dress clothes, beach wear, and undergarments (examples: church, beach, bedroom). Be warned: do NOT wear suggestive clothing if you “can’t handle the heat.”

Let good thoughts
be the rosary
of every mind.
—Swami Sivananda

I have a daughter who is consecrated My s-i-l, her aunt, upon seeing a group shot of all of the young ladies on the day of their professions remarked w/ some surprise on how ‘pretty’ they all were!  She seemed surprised - still is - that such ‘pretty’ girls would freely chose to serve Christ and not seek marriage.

My dh and I know she is correct - up to a point.  It is amazing how pretty (and beautiful) you are when you are following Christ and His call; be it motherhood, religious life or embracing single-ness.  True ‘pretty’ comes from the inside out and if you strive to seek and follow Christ, serving others before yourself,  you truly transform yourself into pretty. 

The opposite is also true - one only has to look at the transformation of such ‘hotties’ as Lindsay Lohan or Madonna to see how living for themselves and the world has made them caricatures of their once pretty selves (unless, of course, airbrushing is involved)!

The strong wave of Theology of the Body teaching is going to help this, I think.

I totally share Mr. Archbold’s frustration with the Newton-John character in “Grease.” How short-sighted and ultimately self-defeating it is for a woman to pretend to be someone other than who she is in hopes of being loved by a man. Does she plan to maintain the masquerade for life, or does she think he’ll just accept the real her after marriage? Disaster ahead!

I also agree that many girls and young women don’t realize exactly how effectively their “hotness” comes across to young men and that it pretty much blots out every other aspect of their being—character, intellect and emotions. Do you really want the guy who responds most strongly to the visual cues that “She is potentially fertile?”

Here is where I think Mr. Archbold goes astray.
Pat Archbold: “. . . in the back then.  First and foremost, many beautiful women, whatever the state of their souls, still wished to project a public innocence and virtue.  And that combination of beauty and innocence is what I define as pretty.”

OK, that is an example of the same kind of deception that the Newton-John character practiced. “In the back then” women were projecting an image that was not really them, eg Grace Kelly. Now I know that we all have public personas that don’t display every knot and wrinkle of our character and experience. These are revealed as a relationship develops. But why would women want to deliberately project a deceptive image that implies a lack of experience and/or knowledge?”

As long as men act like they want hot, women who want to be seen will want to be hot. It’s more up to the men to dictate what they want out of their women. If they want pretty, they should act like they want pretty.

The two Jennifers are contradicting each other.  Jennifer Armintrout is mad because whether women are seen as pretty or as hot is simply objectifying them!  So men stop looking at all!  Women weren’t put on earth to please men!  And then Jenn says women act hot instead of pretty because that is what men want.  Men need to dictate what they want!

Well, which is it????? 

Poor men!  They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t!  Women are so fickle!

Anyway, to the angry Jennifers:  I think women ARE put on earth to please men.  By that I mean to find a mate, to be in relationship with him, to marry him and bear his children, so the human race can continue.  That’s what women (and men!) are for!  That’s why there are men and women to begin with.  Of course we’re here for other reasons too, but that one is pretty foundational.  And I do think men have expressed that they prefer pretty over hot.  For instance, in this article and in the male responses to it.  And if you can’t find men who are like that, you are not hanging out with the right sort of guys!

I have thought about this a lot, and I think you are on to something.  Women gain nothing from trying to project an Amy Winehouse/Christina Augilera image.  The Olivia Newton John image is right on.

Wonderful!!!!  You said it in such a way that I haven’t been able to get across.  I am definitely saving this . . . I would add Godly-minded, but this gets the point across in a practical, observable, almost scientific way!  (Rom 1:16, Is 53:6)

It was well known and widely acknowledged, in days gone by, that women generally held up the tone of the culture.  We were the ones who held the reins of modesty, fashion and decorum. This is one area in which we ruled and for which we were placed on the pedestal where we truly belong.  We were the arbiters of certain aspects of higher culture and, at our best, we were the models and sometimes the signposts to a higher, finer life in keeping with our purity of soul.  The feminist movement ruined us.  We were dragged down from our pedestal and encouraged to wallow in the mud of a depraved culture.  We became unnaturally coarse and foul mouthed.  we began to dress, many of us, like hookers.  No longer did we protect our virtue.  In fact, virtue was (and is) ridiculed.  Fortunately, women can and are deciding to ascend the pedestal once more, repent and reform, and return to our natural place in society.  One of the ladies who lived in the convent where I was a Hindu nun frequently said, “why should we become equal to men when we have always been superior?”  It was a humorous comment, but true in some respects.  The natural blessings with which women are graced give them a place on a pedestal which is different than the pedestal upon which our men should be placed as providers, protectors, defenders and leaders.  In order to inspire our men to rise to their full potential, we need to aspire to a pure ideal.  Being possessed of different (but equal) gifts, we are intended to inspire one another to holiness, goodness and obedience to the Lord’s best wishes for us.  Yes, Yes!  Let us bring pretty back…and everything it entails.

Jennifer Armintrout… I can tell you honestly, that you are speaking in total denial of the REALITY of male libido.  When I used to teach high school, the girls would get up in front of a class to give a talk and expect to be taken seriously while wearing skin-tight, see-thorough bodices and jeans cut so low, you were afraid you might see pubic hair.  The boys would squirm and honestly look pained.  They were supposed to be taking notes on what she was presenting, but they were overwhelmed with her stimulating cues. The girls would tell each other these outfits looked “cute”. While I am sure the girls wanted to look hot to some degree, they also thought that boys and men would and could take them seriously as “thinkers”.  This is not to absolve men and boys from trying to focus on the right things, but it is a shared responsibility, and as far as I can tell, today the girls have TOTALLY given up their end of the deal.

My husband asked his wife-seeking single friend a simple question: “Ginger or Mary Ann?”. If he had answered “Ginger”, he would have gotten a talk on how Mary Ann was the better choice. But this guy chose Mary Ann, hands down. Problem was, he was dating Gingers. He adjusted accordingly and is now happily married to his own Mary Ann.

Thank you so much for this article! It is so true! As a child, I grew up in a household that protected my femininity, and now as a young woman in college, I see it really pays off! Men really do pay more respect to women who respect themselves, and don’t give in to every whim of the fashion world.

I also loved how you defined beauty as a combination of innocence and beauty. How true! In “The Quiet Light,” -a novel on St. Thomas AQuinas, by Louis de Wohl—ST. Thomas says:

“Most girls try to be beautiful from without, and to achieve that they renounce being beautiful from witin. Whereas the nun tries to be beautiful from within and, through doing so, achieves the beauty of the whole.”

I believe that we, as women should never settle for less, and always strive to obtain the beauty of the whole in whatever our vocation.

I am of the opinion that most men do prefer “pretty” as the author says. What isn’t said is that most women prefer men who do not prefer “pretty.” Most women prefer the “bad boys” and want to avoid the “nice guys” that they would attract if they dress “pretty.”

This “education” of pretty comes from a girl’s father and in the actions of her mother. If the father is present and wants his wife and daughter to remain pretty, he makes them totally aware of this. I get sick of hearing grown women want to be “MILFs” and then their little girls follow suit.  These same women wonder why they can’t find a good man.  Unfortunately I think this article says there’s a problem, but doesn’t offer any good solutions.

As long as men act like they want hot, women who want to be seen will want to be hot. It’s more up to the men to dictate what they want out of their women. If they want pretty, they should act like they want pretty

Bit of chicken and egg, but, ok, how would men go about acting like they want pretty, if the women who want to be seen are only offering hot?  The men should just not go?  And what of the women who want “bad boys” mentioned above - it goes both ways, doesn’t it?

I guess the solution is the bad boys pair with the hot, and nice guys with the pretty.  Then everyone gets what they deserve.

While I agree with some of what you have written, I think you undervalue hot, and also miss the point of Sandy’s “conversion” in Grease.  While she undoubtedly does go hot at the end of the movie, I have never assumed that she would then do so for good.  I see Sandy at the beginning of Grease as one dimensional - incapable of hot.  While this can be attractive and appealing, it is also, as you have said, undeniably innocent.  I know very few men who find innocence attractive long term.  When Sandy discovers Hot, she becomes multidimensional - and much more interesting long term.  While I do agree that hot is way overused, particularly as a public display of a woman’s charms, it is true that every woman would do well to find inner hotness, if only for her partner.

In Response to Jennifer A who wrote >Women are not objects put on this earth to please men with our appearance…< well, it sure seems that way. We’re seeing an entire generation of girls- young women- who collectively have the moral rectitude of an alley cat. Congratulations on the whole sexual equality “I am woman hear me roar” thing. The first girl who got drunk and flashed her breasts doomed the rest.

While I think you had good intentions here about the sexualization of women in society, I don’t think you understand the fact that women don’t want to be judged solely on their appearances and what men think of those appearances. We want to be leaders and CEOs and scientists and professors and everything else. “Innocence” is not a quality associated with leadership and power, so by saying that is what we should be, you really are putting us down.

@Tracy - you speak from a perspective where the highest good is worldly success, not salvation.

Pretty will not return until Beauty and Goodness and Truth are recognized for their Source.  Push Him out, push Them out.

This is exactly what I try to teach my daughters, especially by example. God has led me to dress in a more modest way. No more tight jeans. No more tiny bathing suits. More long skirts and dresses. Sexy is not the aim. We can absolutely be attractive in a way that preserves our dignity as women. We are not toys. We are not for sale. We need to make this statement with our clothing as well as our demeanor.

Tracy, women don’t want to be judged on appearance, of course.  But I think many of us fail to realize that our appearance does make a difference in how people see us.  If you think of going in to your bank and finding the manager dressed like a biker, it might be similar.  There’s nothing wrong with dressing like a biker when you’re out for a drive on your motorcycle, but it would make some people a bit leary from a bank officer.  Any person’s appearance will affect how others respond, including when a woman dresses to be “hot”.  It distracts from the message that she wants to be taken seriously.

I don’t think you understand the fact that women don’t want to be judged solely on their appearances and what men think of those appearances. We want to be leaders and CEOs and scientists and professors and everything else. “Innocence” is not a quality associated with leadership and power, so by saying that is what we should be, you really are putting us down.

I’m not sure how leadership is opposed to innocence. In fact, I would suggest that a hardworking, strong minded, courageous woman who doesn’t back down on her morals and convictions would be far more successful than one who dresses to impress. If that’s not the case, (and I’m sure it isn’t always the case - the same is true for good, hardworking men who refuse to be cutthroat in the business world), then it’s the business world’s problem, not the problem of innocence.

I imagine we must have different definitions of innocence. I see innocence as a childish, wide-eyed attitude in which a person has no or little power. You must see it as something else. I welcome your alternative definition. I see this piece as a way to diminish women’s roles in society—to see them as childlike and sweet rather than leaders. Would you describe Hillary Clinton and Condoleeza Rice as “innocent?”

By the way, Tracy, have you heard the way that Michelle Obama is gouged at times for her less than modest dress code. The same is true of any female politician who shows any cleavage. I would say that modesty and the perception of innocence are exactly what the business world is looking for out of their leaders. No where in this article does Pat suggest that one cannot have a mind of her own in order to be considered innocent. In fact, I always thought Sandy came across as being the most intelligent character on the cast. A fact, I’m sure, made Sandy all the more attractive to Pat (though I’m putting words into his mouth, too).

Also, are “pretty” and “innocent,” or “hot” all we have to choose from? You have not offered us the adjectives “intelligent,” “talented,” “powerful,” “honest,” “strong” and other words like that. Everything goes to our appearance and sweetness.

I see what you’re saying Tracy and yes, I would hold Hilary Clinton and Condoleeza Rice up as examples of dress and decorum for our young ladies. Perhaps innocence isn’t the most perfect word, though because of connotation of the word. That being said, based on the moral code upheld by these particular women, there are better examples out there I would hold up for my daughter (but that’s a personal aside for another post).

agreed….partially. I kept waiting while reading this article for the role of male projection to be addressed. The one line, “Of course men play a role in this as well” was not enough. And the Olivia Newton John reference was a bit out of context. He may have hated Sandy’s outfit change, but he failed to acknowledge that throughout Grease Sandy attempted to remain pure and provide that image of innocence not in order to attract her man, but because it was true to who she was. It was only upon being rejected and mocked by Danny Zucco and his friends (both male and female) that she decided to change…and why did she change, in order to gain the affections of the guy who was embarrassed by her virtuous appearance (neither proud nor defensive of it). So the question here, is who is to blame? The men or the women? I will not be so bold as to assert and not back up claims against either feminists nor misogynists (as Mr. Archbold did) Broadly we can attribute this loss of pretty (which I both acknowledge and culturally agree with) to “society” or an alteration of “societal norms,” however to assume the whole responsibly of such a change to one gender (the post-considered less dominant gender) is irresponsible, inappropriate, poorly considered and ultimately and most damagingly misleading. Mr. Archbold’s other notably broad unfounded statement was in reference to a man’s better characteristic behaviors being inspired by a women’s portrayal of innocence and virtue. In spirit I will also make a broadly unfounded assumption and claim that female behavior is often influenced by what she intuits be the object of her interest’s desires. (Sandy being the perfect example) and here may I also go ahead and irresponsibly blame men for the behavior of women? Can I say females behave poorly because they are treated poorly, or should I say female’s are treated poorly because they behave poorly? hmmm…there are problems here. See, I get what he was saying, and I can attempt to understand the frustration he and a lot of men must feel being surrounded by women who do not respect themselves, however…I do not think it is correct that we blame the impressionable young girls who seek “hottness” as is assigned to them early on by the masculine social sex drive and as is culturally displayed across the social board from monday night football commercials to disney movies. In truth, the blame can be easily detected in our culture’s ramped concupiscence. Behaviors are born from what….other behaviors. A lack of spiritual guidance has affected all people in the modern world, both men and women. I am not here to write a counter article called the “The Death of Manhood or Chivalry”, or whatever. Because the real death that has occurred is the death of self-respect, as in one’s respect for one’s bodily and spiritual self, as creations under law. That little cultural trend has every young girl AND boy seeking to become a member of the world’s sexually experienced nobility as they reach for their mini skirts, or their Axe body spray.

I completely agree with this article. It’s the same how the word “sexy” is used for everything these days, from a woman’s appearance to a sports car. “Sexy,” like “hot,” is what a lot of women seem to aspire to in their appearance. Yes - what ever happened to modesty and innocence and being pretty?

Men also seek a meeting of minds.

agreed….partially. I kept waiting while reading this article for the role of male projection to be addressed. The one line, “Of course men play a role in this as well” was not enough. And the Olivia Newton John reference was a bit out of context. He may have hated Sandy’s outfit change, but he failed to acknowledge that throughout Grease Sandy attempted to remain pure and provide that image of innocence not in order to attract her man, but because it was true to who she was. It was only upon being rejected and mocked by Danny Zucco and his friends (both male and female) that she decided to change…and why did she change, in order to gain the affections of the guy who was embarrassed by her virtuous appearance (neither proud nor defensive of it). So the question here, is who is to blame? The men or the women? I will not be so bold as to assert and not back up claims against either feminists nor misogynists (as Mr. Archbold did) Broadly we can attribute this loss of pretty (which I both acknowledge and culturally agree with) to “society” or an alteration of “societal norms,” however to assume the whole responsibly of such a change to one gender (the post-considered less dominant gender) is irresponsible, inappropriate, poorly considered and ultimately and most damagingly misleading.

Mr. Archbold’s other notably broad unfounded statement was in reference to a man’s better characteristic behaviors being inspired by a women’s portrayal of innocence and virtue. In spirit I will also make a broadly unfounded assumption and claim that female behavior is often influenced by what she intuits be the object of her interest’s desires. (Sandy being the perfect example) and here may I also go ahead and irresponsibly blame men for the behavior of women? Can I say females behave poorly because they are treated poorly, or should I say female’s are treated poorly because they behave poorly? hmmm…there are problems here. See, I get what he was saying, and I can attempt to understand the frustration he and a lot of men must feel being surrounded by women who do not respect themselves, however…I do not think it is correct that we blame the impressionable young girls who seek “hottness” as is assigned to them early on by the masculine social sex drive and as is culturally displayed across the social board from monday night football commercials to disney movies. In truth, the blame can be easily detected in our culture’s ramped concupiscence. Behaviors are born from what….other behaviors. A lack of spiritual guidance has affected all people in the modern world, both men and women. I am not here to write a counter article called the “The Death of Manhood or Chivalry”, or whatever. Because the real death that has occurred is the death of self-respect, as in one’s respect for one’s bodily and spiritual self, as creations under law. That little cultural trend has every young girl AND boy seeking to become a member of the world’s sexually experienced nobility as they reach for their mini skirts, or their Axe body spray.

I enjoyed the post and the comments. It is a subject that needs discussion. I am curious as to how many homilies everyone has heard from their priests on this subject. Of course, we should all know what modesty is and demand it from ourselves, our spouses, and especially, our children, but we need to hear from our pastors and bishops exactly what the Church teaches on this matter. Giving communion to scantily or improperly attired parishioners and allowing extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist to wear tight pants and plunging necklines confuses me. What does it say to our children of impressionable age?

It is not just that men view “hot” as a commodity.”
Sometimes there is this contrary reversal which upends my chivalry. Instead of an innocent pretty girl which provokes my sense of being protective of them, I am instead trying to “protect” myself from the temptation of “hot” girls who are trying to manipulate me in some way.
Sometimes I do long for a time when i could innocently have friendships with girls who are innocent girls, instead of now, I just do not want friendships with girls because I just have a hard time believing that they are trying to inspire and enrich my own innocence and chastity.

Ian and Tracy;
How about “class” instead?  Many young women today (and mothers) dress with zero class.  They dress like Bratz dolls.

well said! I agree!!!

To play Devil’s advocate here, I’ve seen plenty of innocent-looking girls that are actually anything but innocent. I’ve seen scantily clad teenagers who’ve actually never had a drink or kiss in their life yet. The bottom line is, nobody (women AND men) should be judging us on appearance at all, and we shouldn’t be modeling ourselves based on what men want from us (or what anyone wants from us). He got so high up on his pedestal over “sexy,” objectified, women that he was totally oblivious to the fact that he was objectifying them, too. I consider innocence to be a nice virtue, but the way it’s described here is more like modesty and subservience, covering up, which is a bit of a shallow view of it, in my opinion. Women are powerful and multidimensional. Nobody is simply innocent, and that’s ok; we as women have so many different aspects to us. We own our sexuality, our minds, and our personalities. We can dress and do whatever the hell they want. I applaud women who can dress and do what they want confidently, without the fear of being objectified; and that goes on both ends - on one side of the spectrum, women are judged if they wear hijaabs and can’t shake a man’s hand due religious convictions. Others strut downtown in high heels and short skirts and get called sluts. But, that’s what both women chose to wear and they don’t change their convictions (or simply their taste in fashion) for anyone, and they shouldn’t. It’s OK to be sexy, and it’s OK to be modest!! Of course, there are extremes where both ends can turn sour and demean women. But, when it’s their choice, their life, their expression, and they’re content, kind, and caring people, who are we to judge? Who are we to say they’re not “pretty?” And to think of it, why are the women on trial in the first place? Why is their appearance of that much importance, are we forgetting they’re people? He said society doesn’t value “good girls;” but what he was referring to was timid, one-dimensional, modest girls, how women were portrayed in the past. Yes, we don’t value that. We value real WOMEN - multi-dimensional, powerful, expressive, individual, who know their sexuality and are confident on how they express it (whether only in private or on the cover of magazines) and don’t apologize for it.

And PS - no one thinks Lindsay Lohan is hot. She’s a hot mess. No one is “valuing” her image in any positive light.

Pat, I understand the point of your article.  I realy do.  However, I see nothing wrong with a woman being “Hot” and/or Pretty at the same time.  It does not mean men view her in a way which objectifies her.  Some women are Hot without even knowing it (and even if they dress quite modestly). It’s in the eye of the man.  A woman can be “Hot” at 20 and still “Hot” and Pretty decades later.  Ladies,—really, you do not have to show us “what you got.”  If you have caught a man’s eye it’s not because you’ve been in our face displaying your assets.  The “plain Jane’s” of the culture can also be “Hot” and pretty as well.  Everyone should do the best with what God gave them.  One thing for sure, however, is that a perceived “Hot” woman in today’s culture can instantly drop to freezing if her interior being is not “Pretty.”

@Jennifer Armintrout—Renae is correct.  You do seem quite hostile to Pat’s article.  So what’s the problem with good grooming, taking care of oneself and dressing well?  Even if you don’t care what men think, you should at least do it for yourself.  The same principle also applies to men.

This is nice, really nice to hear a man saying this.  And I mean that with all sincerity, I believe this article to be well-intentioned argument to elevate women above the status of sexual object.  I do believe that the subtle underlying message is unintentional but I would like to point it out.  It seems that whenever you have someome that tries to comment on the decline of modern society it almost always involves placing the onus of repsonsibility on women.  Women need to to this, wear that etc and the state of modern society will be repaired.  Incidentally these articles are always written by men and the articles are always arguing for women to dress in a certain way.  As if something as superficial and shallow as clothing and dress is the singular reason for the decline of our society.  I can agree to a certain extent that that may be a contributing factor but it does not even begin to scratch the surface.

As a side note I’m wondering where the articles on nice boys actually making eye contact with nice girls who look pretty rather than completely ignoring them 99% of the time while also complaining out loud to their dateless male friends that their are “no good girls” around right in the presence of maybe 4 or 5 devout church-going modest and pretty women?  Where is that article on the sharp decline of social skills in men, or the lack of men pursuing women unless they’re dressed provocatively? I went to a Catholic college where all the “good boys” talked about how all the women at the University were not attractive (perhaps because they didn’t look like Olivia Newton John at the end of the Grease movie?) and when they did have girlfriends they were decidedly dressed in provocative clothing.

I’m a little tired of articles that propose a change in women’s fashion is where we need to start in resolving our lack of culture.  I’m not a painting that you can just plaster up on a wall I’m a human being. I’m a little sick of men telling me what to wear in general.  Granted we are put on the earth to serve one another but I think I have more to offer than just outward appearances. I think it overlooks in a major way the real value I have is spiritual and personal rather than just an object of sexuality or on the other side an object of innocence.  To be put on a pedastal is to be objectfied.  To say that women are superior to men is to absolve men from responsibility of repairing the state of affairs in gender relations because they are not capable of more.  And I do believe so much in the capability, dignity and humanity of men that I think that men treating women a certain way because of what women wear is such a petty excuse and it also leads me to the bold, controversial, perhaps revolutionary, assertion that man also have a role to play in the restoration of culture.  And by role to play I don’t mean something as insipid as telling women what to wear thereby feeling like the issue has been resolved. 

To me the pretty and hotness argument are both sides of the same coin and that is control. If we can just contort, twist and mold women to our own liking then all of society’s problems will be solved. In the end on both sides the real genius of women gets overlooked.  On focusing on the superficial I think we overlook that it is the personal and spiritual qualities of women that have the capacity to strengthen and edify those whose lives she touches.

I think the use of ‘innocence’ is misplaced.  The virtuous woman does not have to be doe-eyed and naive to be pretty.  Chaste does not mean asexual, but rightly ordered.

To my way of thinking, ‘pretty’ is the combination of beauty + virtue.  ‘Hotness’ is the combination of beauty + the implicit suggestion of vice.

I am a woman in my mid 20s and was 100% with you on your thoughts on pretty v. hot. Where you lost me was Olivia Newton John. Grease is set in a high school. Yes, she was trying to change to better fit in with him and his friends, but what need not be forgotten is that he was trying to change for her as well. He swapped the leather jacket for the letter sweater to leave behind his bad boy reputation to show a more innocent and respectable one so that he could be with her. They both changed their images for each other, which proved that it wasn’t necessary for either of them to do so because underneath it all they were meant to be together. And THAT is the message of Grease.

?“It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity. Something to be used up and thrown out.”

I don’t know if I can get down with this article when it says something so sexist and downright weird. And this guy is….kinda of chauvinistic in his writings and definitions—as if pretty can only be projected innocence and beauty—and hotness he alludes to some sort of sexual prowess—as if a women’s sexual prowess is some sort of negative trait.

(aside: it is weird for me when children are aspiring to be hot/experimenting with their own sexual natures—but that’s just how I was socialized)

Not saying that innocence is a negative trait either…..though the thought that a women would project a feigned innocence is lying about who she is—and the idea that a man would find that endearing is establishing some sort of relationship under a false pretense.

I suppose one would have to better define innocence.

I can get down with innocence being honesty or integrity as a person. Cause that’s in my opinion one of the better traits a person can have when it comes to establishing a relationship.

But again this idea of pretty versus hot. I think a pretty person is a sexy person with no pretenses about their mind or their sexuality. but then again that’s my own personal opinion.

Tracy,

I’m concerned that perhaps your definition of “innocent” seems to be “stupid” or “inexperienced.”
.
In what I read from Pat’s words was that innocence, while being a real state of inexperience to a degree… the appearance of innocence is less about doe-eyed idiocy as it is about retaining some wonder… some mystery.
Innocence makes you wonder what she knows… to want to sit down and find out what is interesting about her (perhaps being drawn in by looks… sure….)
By contrast, the “hot” factor is pretty clearly about leaving nothing to the imagination…. the Lindsey Lohan image that gives the appearance that you know exactly what she has experienced because it’s written all over her - she looks like she just rolled out of bed (whose bed?), like she just picked herself up off the tile floor after an intimate session with the porcelain god…  it brings to mind the phrase “rode hard and put up wet”
.
Personally, I know plenty.  I’m smart and I’ve seen a lot of the world… or at least the U.S.  I can be tough and serious and sharp as tacks…  i’m opinionated and accomplished….  and I’ll be honest, I’m surprised when a suitor describes me as “sweet”.
.
Maybe they see sweet in the fact that I don’t plaster myself with make-up (I wear plenty - and I’m very serious about it, but my style is more toward highlighting what I have than in drawing the soot from the street around my eyes)  I’m modestly dressed, but always feminine and flattering.
That is innocence. Not ignorance.
Because being drawn to something lovely also hits a road block when lovely is ignorant inside.  Men get bored of that too.
.

I couldn’t help coming back to this post and looking at the other comments. It seems that everyone has a different idea of what a woman should be, but I think we can all agree that women are meant to be beautiful.But how can we define beauty? I like the definition one young man gave once:

“I want a girl who’s beautiful. And by beautiful, I mean TRULY ALIVE.”

Whether smart, naive, savvy, innocent, tough, or vulnerable, all women have different traits and are meant to have different lives. But how each woman lives out her beauty is up to her, and I think what is universally attractive to men—in my humble opinion,—is a girl who lives life with VIBRANCY. Whether picking flowers or being President of a company, each woman is called to beauty and to deepen her beauty by living out her faith and being truly alive.

Ridiculous.

I am 19 and a half years old, and I have dressed modestly all my life (wearing skirts that come below my knee and un-provocative necklines).  I was more than thrilled to find this article!  I, too, have always wondered what happened to “pretty”.  It’s maddening to see every girl aspire after models, actresses and other popular women whose lives are blatantly full of licentiousness and vulgarity.  I am so happy to be considered pretty, and if men or boys ever refer to me as “hot”, I am immediately repelled.  I have always disliked the term as it has base connotations.  God bless you for publishing this article!!!

Pretty vs hot.  This idea will come in handy.

I’m 68 and a grandfather. Every day during the school year I have some dead time that I spend at a college library in small town in Oregon,  and there I have encountered the “hook-up culture” in a very big way. A few months ago I picked up the school paper where I was shocked to discover a sex advice column by a young woman whose nom d’plume is Bailey.

Essentially the column is unspeakable, but to give you the flavor of it her most recent effort was titled “Threesomes Sometimes.” Over the months there’s been no response in the form of letters to the editor. A conversation with the Dean of Students elicited the response that she conceived her job as preventing and mopping up after sexual assaults, drinking binges and the like. She was irritated and astounded that I seemed to be implying the the school should promote celibacy. This was a Baptist School till the mid-sixties, btw.

The editor expressed openness to contrary letters to the editor or an opinion piece, and if you don’t mind, Pat, I am planning to plagiarize some of your work. Footnotes wouldn’t work too well.

I wanted to say to the young men there, if you want to have a happy marriage, a faithful wife, and children whom you are sure are your own, you don’t want to marry “an experienced” girl.  Look for a girl who is fresh-faced and with a light heart, a virgin, whose future will not be clouded by remorse and consequent alcholism or drug abuse or by any of the other demons that so many young people seem bent on acquiring today. Why should you take on that baggage?

How will you find someone like that? It’s not absolute, but how she dresses is a very big clue. If she dresses to seduce, it’s a fair bet she has been successful.

Pretty vs hot seems a very good way to frame the argument.

I agree, it would be nice to get on the same page about terms.  How many posters are using ‘innocence’ when they mean ‘ignorance’?  They aren’t the same.
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Tracy:  I hesistate to say what I would call Hillary Clinton.  No, I don’t think she is innocent, I think she is ambitious to a fault.  I’m going to leave it at that.  So, in short, you may not have picked the best example.
Also, you seem to blame Archbold for sticking to one topic in a blog post.  The present topic is outward appearance.  Perhaps he will write another on the other subjects you mentioned, which would be tangents here.  Or, write a companion piece on your own blog.

Wonderful article thank you. I too couldn’t stand Grease for what Olivia Newton John became. That was also a transition in her career from beautiful and pretty to trashy babe. I could never watch grease for what it did to her.

Perhaps we could substitute “self-respecting” for innocent to gain some persepective on this.  A woman who respects herself shows that in her appearance; the same is true of men.  A person who shows self-respect signals an unwillingness to accept disrespectful treatment, and without saying a word.  Modesty and appropriateness are two more applicable words here.  Dress appropriately for the occasion, and with modesty.  This precludes dressing like a shop where all your “goods,” so to speak, are on display as if for sale or rent.  A tasteful, classy appearance is always in style for both sexes.  While we’re at it, let’s just admit that men are visual; that’s how God created them.  Respect that trait and dress in a way which lets men see you as multi-dimensional, not just visual feasts.

This discussion could be expanded to include a modern contempt for innocence, in children, as well as in women; a contempt for purity.  Little children cuss, dress inappropriately, watch adult movies, tell adult jokes and know the lyrics to adult songs.  Since when does adulthood begin at the age of five or ten?  We need to guard our children’s, and our own, purity with a passion, because it is very valuable.  As Our Lord said, “Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.”

@RoseAngel:  Don’t always assume.  It’s always good to understand what the individual man means by “Hot.”  The culture may say it means one thing while a man simply may view you as extremely good looking or very pretty.  Not all men view “Hot” in a trashy way or which is judgmental of your sexual virtue.

you are a moron

Real men are not attracted to either innocent nor ignorant women.  If they are, such men have never matured and probably need professional help.  Men are attracted to bright, savvy, compassionate and kind hearted women who also love Jesus.

This article just affirmed what I realized this week. I just arrived in Bogota, Colombia 5 days ago and I have noticed the women are so much prettier to me than in the United States because they do have a projected innocence in their face that really comes from who they are on the inside. They want to be pretty but they are not trying to be hot. Culturally, they are a humble people so even the pretty women make you want to protect and cherish them rather than use them for their “hotness” like some women in the US.

I enjoyed your article it actually ties in well with a book I am trying to write!

I understood the general gist of his article to be that the popularity of seeking to be considered “hot” (i.e. inspiring lust, sexually experienced) vs. “pretty” (i.e. modest, sexually innocent) among women is something to be lamented and worked against. As a follower of the teachings of Jesus and a teacher of young girls, I would agree with this general gist, but overall I found this author’s article to be sloppy and some points I simply didn’t agree with.

To start, the author seems to be lamenting the loss of “projected innocence” rather than a lack of true modesty/morality in itself. He writes, “…many beautiful women, whatever the state of their souls, still wished to project a public innocence and virtue.” Is this really what we are lamenting? A lack of projected innocence that may or may not be real behind closed doors? The author points out that today’s women wish to be “hot” to be desired by men. The same logic can be applied to why past generations of women wanted to appear innocent. To be desired by men. In the end, women in both scenarios were placing what men thought of them above the opinions of their Maker. Shouldn’t we be more concerned then that, just like in our grandparent’s generation, many of today’s women do not know Jesus and the grace He extends to change their hearts?

In addition to missing the real source of the problem (our sin nature, not our clothes), the author seems to be promoting a legalistic view to fixing the issue (i.e. discipline yourself into acting morally because it’s the right thing to do) vs. redemption through grace (i.e. surrender your control to Jesus so you can be changed). He seems to be more concerned that non-Christian start acting like Christians than for non-Christians to become Christians. His final call to action (Girls, please, bring back the pretty) assumes a humanistic approach to healing our culture by changing the way girls dress. Not only is he focusing on the symptoms rather than the source of the problem, he suggests an unviable treatment.

The author’s opinions on how women’s modesty or lack thereof affects men are also a bit disturbing. He writes, “…when men see this combination in women it brings out their better qualities…inspires men to protect and defend it.” Is the woman then responsible for how the men around her act? Does she really have control over what they say and do? Could the opposite also be said? That women are the cause of men’s crass and degrading behavior toward them? Do men just mindlessly react to the women around them? They have no control over their own behavior? While the author admits that men play a role in women’s choice to pursue “hotness,” he then goes on to say that women know better. Does that mean that men do not know better? Should they not be held accountable for the things they say and do?

This idea that women “get what they ask for” based on their clothing is popular in our culture. Sociologists consider this mindset to be one of the main proponents in building rape culture, where violence against women is seen as a women’s problem and the attacker (usually male) is largely ignored. Picture this, there is a woman in a dark alley way. She is drunk. She is wearing a tube top, a mini skirt, and stiletto heals. She is completely alone. Is she in danger of being attacked? No. Now, a man walks into the alley. Is she in danger of being attacked now? Yes. It was not her clothes that put her in danger, but the man that is willing to take advantage of her. Many people bristle at this. Am I saying that women should dress however they want and go wherever they want? No! I would never give that advice. But we need to recognize the true source of the problem – that people are willing to hurt each other!

Now, you may ask where I am going with this, as the author is not discussing violence against women. True, but his line of thinking does promote the false idea that women “deserve what they get” because of what they wear. A line of thinking that puts all the responsibility of men’s actions onto women’s appearance.

And speaking of men’s reactions, no discussion is made as to the role men’s evolving and culturally influenced reactions to women’s dress plays in the change to valuing “hot” over “pretty.” Instead, the women’s movement is blamed. “It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity.” This is stated as a fact. The author gives no evidence to draw a correlation between these two issues, let alone causation. The issue of women’s dress is complicated. It is influenced by many things, including, but certainly not limited to the women’s movement. To indicate that the woman’s movement is the only influencing factor is simply false. In addition, many things have come from the woman’s movement (some positive, some negative, in my opinion). Even if you agree that the women’s movement is responsible for the change in women’s dress, to say that it is the ONLY thing the women’s movement produced is just laughable.

A thought-provoking Article.  Some of the Respondents’ comments are worrying, indeed. Thank you, Pat

I really like this article! As a young Christian girl I what to be pretty and NOT hot. It is sad that many girls want to be hot. What I really dont like is that some of the mothers push their daughters to be hot. Whats wrong with some of the mothers! What hurts is some of the men have said women are not worth looking at unless they are’hot’. Remember, God is the only true definer of pretty and when you come to Him giving your heart and willing to serve, thats when you become pretty. A
nd when you grow in Christ, you become Beautiful.

I think men play more than a role. They demand hot and to say that women should know and do better in my opinion takes a misogynistic tone basically saying that I it weren’t for those darn women everyone could aspire to innocence. I see this completely opposite than what you do. The problem is men who only affirm hotness. Maybe they’re the ones who should know and do better. They should demand the return of pretty. But I dont hear them saying it. I hear just you saying we should take your word for it that men prefer pretty. And why should women care what men prefer? What if women want to be hot just for the sake of themselves? You probably never thought I that because you probably prefer pretty women in the kitchen making you sandwiches.

St Gregory The Great : When a girl ceases to blush, she has lost the most powerful charm of her beauty.

I think people need to understand that it takes quite a backbone in this society to act and dress with innocence and to be confident. I am a fairly average girl when it comes to attractiveness. I look much younger than I am. In college I often had to deal with boys who would seek out innocent naive looking girls to take advantage of them. I think boys are guilty in that they are looking for something easy, whether it is an innocent girl who will believe them or a hot girl who will give them what they want. Boys need to learn to deal with girls that are entirely good and entirely alive. Women who will challenge them to be men. This includes men who are Christian, yet still seek to date women who will enforce their ego, rather then help them grow. From my experience, most men assumed I was out of their league, rather then stepping up themselves.

Pat, I think you just read my mind with this article.  I completely and totally agree: girls should stop trying to be “hot” and go back to being “pretty.”  “Hot” is something of an insult to my mind, and I would never use it to describe a girl.  I’ve got two wonderful female friends whom I would never consider “hot”: they are “pretty,” and I appreciate them so much more because of it.  I think that “pretty” is closer to “beautiful” than “hot” will ever be, and it’s like that for a reason.  True beauty is about much more than looks; “hotness” is defined purely in terms of appearances, which are not the measure of people.  Hopefully people will realize this, stop concentrating on how sexy they think they ought to look, and learn to recognize and appreciate true beauty.

Very nicely done. Regarding “Grease” notice also that she already had the attention of the boy she liked (played by John Travolta) but she “hots” herself in order to appease her and the boy’s peers.  He liked her just fine as a the pretty, innocent girl but put in the context of his nasty school peers, they both have to conform.  One more reason I am glad that we homeschool.  Thank you for this. I will have my preteen daughter read it.

I like this article but I would like a definition of innocent.

Amen to this article!  Down through the generations, over time, values and morals have changed so much. Many girls today are products of the “children having children” generation.  Those parents more than likely, lost their “innocence” at such a young age that they don’t raise their own children to know and understand what that even means. Someone is purchasing the seductive looking clothing that these young girls are wearing, so in essence, the parents are sending the message that they approve of this image their daughter is projecting.  I believe that one thing that helps a young woman value herself and demand respect from boys/men is the relationship she has with her Father.  Fathers, show your daughter how women should be treated. Set an example by the way you treat her and and her Mother. Teach her what kind of clothing/make-up is appropriate. (My Father would not have let me leave the house in the clothing that girls wear today). Make sure she knows how much you love her.  Make sure she learns from you how she should be treated by a man.  If her entire life, she has been treated with love, concern, respect and protection from the men in her life, she will expect and demand it when she becomes a young woman and begins to date.  I also believe that if a young woman is confident in her Father’s love for her, she will not feel the need to look “hot” to find love/affection or approval from men.

This article is true.

However, I understand why women don’t want to be “pretty” anymore. Being “pretty” makes it easier to maintain your self-respect, but, unless you’re one of those who happened to find an appropriate spouse at a young age, it can essentially keep you alone.

I’m in thirties, single, and yes, most definitely pretty. I have friends who are “hot” and, it’s true, they receive scads more male attention than I do from both church-going men and non-churchy types.  It seldom results in a long-term connection, but that attention gives them something to brag about over breakfast and coffee as I sit, listen, and nod, with very little to contribute.

Women have a self-esteem in this society but it’s coupled with an equal or greater supply and quality control problem on the male side.

One fellow I met on a Catholic dating website put it best, I think. In the face of my traditional moral outlook, he told me, “You’re going to find a lot of men who respect your way of doing things, but it will be very difficult to find any who want to live by it.”

I’m finding that what he said is 100 percent correct.

What Mr. Archbold said about men seeing a woman as having that combination of beauty and innocence it brings out the best in the man is true.  A perfect example of this is when a man is at work, or in a group of women and men, there a certain women that he would feel very comfortable telling a dirty joke in their presence…..but, there are also certain women that he would never tell a dirty joke in front of.  The deciding factor of who he would or would not tell a dirty joke in front of is what kind of image that woman projects which, in turn, determines if she demands respect or not.

Gotta tell you this: My daughters have a guy friend and co-worker who is in a heavy metal band. He’s not religious at all but he’s good hearted. He told them that he didn’t know any girls like them. They were pretty and sweet.

I can’t believe that you’re concentrating so much on women’s physical appearances and asking women to look a certain way. How about you just let people be who they are, whether or not it’s your ideals of pretty or hot? Or how about you teach women that they don’t need to dress for men or to impress them? How about you teach them self-respect and confidence, so that they don’t need to feel the need to dress the way a man wants them to? Frankly, I find it disgusting that a man wrote this and is demanding that females look a certain way for his own reasons. Especially since nothing was ever said about character or personality or even what his idea of pretty versus hot reflect. Nope, this is just his opinion that he prefers girls who look innocent or virtuous, probably reflecting his own attraction. That, or fear that his daughters will go out showing too much skin. Either way, this is so misogynistic and patriarchal.

I also lamented the death of Olivia Newton John’s true ‘pretty’ in GREASE. Glad to hear a guy say the same :)

Mothers can play a large role in bringing back pretty and innocence for their daughters. When mothers dress appropriately and modestly in ways that enhance rather than exploit their natural beauty, they set fine examples for their daughters to emulate. Helping them choose attractive fabrics and embellishments on their clothes, and find the right color and style for them that expresses their uniqueness yet adheres to a modest standard is one of the best things (and fun things! :) ) a mother can do with her daughter/s. Men respond to how a woman projects herself. If she has high standards, he respects her. High standards does not mean being a ‘prude’. We do not need high, lace Victorian necklines and stiffness. Warmth, projected through one’s personality along with lovely clothes and a modest, happy and fun attitude will bring back pretty, which, after all is much more attractive anyway- :)

Theresa, mama of six (pretty! :) ) daughters and three (handsome, but that’s another post- :) ) sons

From the comments we should not presume everyone is speaking to (or from) the same mindset.  There is a worldview and then there is the Christian worldview.  Each person decides in which “world” we will live.  It is hoped Catholic and Christian women would dress and project an image of what they already know their value is,—that of Christ living within her.  She will then more likely attract like-minded men (if that is her objective).  Her value is not defined by Hollywood and Pop Culture.  Suggestive attire is not required to attract “true” Catholic or Christian men.  He will notice you regardless.

In reference to what Liz was saying.  My son has the same problem with girls.  He’s 21 and is a complete gentleman. Many times when he is out with a young woman and he opens doors for them or tries to put them first and foremost, the girls actually get offended.  They tell him he is old fashioned and some have even said that it’s nerdy for him to do that.  I just don’t understand.  I guess girls today just don’t value themselves very much.

“Girls, please, bring back the pretty.”

Not to be one sided…. Men, please bring back gentlemanly attire. Hats, trousers, polished shoes with suits and ties. Men, stop looking like 40 year old frat boys.

Exactly.

Being “hot” isn’t brazen enough.  Now feminists tell young ladies to dress like sluts and join a Slutwalk in order to reduce rapes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMCcrYQx4mE

Twisted (and ugly!) reasoning.

To Ally, I don’t think that Mr. Archbold was “telling” girls that they “should” look a certain way.  I think the article just shows how men perceive different images that a girl portrays.  He explained the way that “most” men respond to women who look “hot” and the way that they respond to women who look “pretty”.  If a girl doesn’t care one way or the other about how a man responds to her, and many don’t care, then it doesn’t matter to her and she can disregard it. If a woman is looking for a relationship or commitment and it matters to her the way men see her, then she may take this article to heart.  Because there are so many different kind of women in this world, I don’t think that anyone is wrong or right here, it’s all about opinions.

To Ally,
I don’t know if my previous comment made much sense but I was trying to say that my girls’ prettiness was edifying to the regular, non-Christian guy they worked with. He was used to girls who were hot and hard. He responded like a gentleman to my daughters.

To Susie,  it kind of follows the saying of “you get what you give”.  If a girl/woman acts like a lady, she will more than likely be treated like a lady.  That was a word my mother used very often when I was a little girl.  The word “lady”.  She always told me to act like a lady.  Another thing she always told me was that if I found myself in a situation, and I wondered if what I was about to do was wrong or right, to ask myself this question:  If my Mom and Dad were here, would I do this/say this in front of them?  She said that if the answer was no, then I probably shouldn’t do it.  To this day, I appreciate the fact that she didn’t let us run wild and do whatever we wanted.  She cared enough to know who we were with and what we were doing.  I’m sure I hated that back then, but now, with kids of my own, I realized that she did those things because she loved us.  Like it says in the Bible: The rod of reproof gives wisdom, but a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.

@Andrea, EXACTLY. The message I was getting was one of women being obedient and subservient. Women do not need to be cute, pretty, with childlike innocence to be of any worth, to men or otherwise. I think it’s a rather shallow analysis of women’s worth and character to claim that dressing, being, portraying oneself or being portrayed as “hot” (meaning what? Skirt 2 inches above the knee? 3? 4? Any cleavage or just a lot? How much eye makeup before it’s inappropriate?) makes them undesirable to men or to society. Should we also be obedient, be seen and not heard, run to the kitchen and make you a sandwich? I read a comment posted here that stated that “the feminist movement ruined us.” It pains me to see that expressed by a fellow woman. To disregard all of the advances women have made in society on the basis of dress is a true shame, and completely unfounded. Some of the young women I’ve known who’ve been all sugar and spice from outward appearances have been the least innocent, and vice versa. In many cases, it’s completely arbitrary.

And please, do speak more to the role men have in this “phenomenon”. “Of course men play a role in this as well, but women should know better and they once did.” Blame the victim much? The misogynistic undertones and objectification of women in today’s society are a product of men who do the objectifying. Men can practice a little something called self-control. In short, you’re saying boys will be boys, but gosh darn it girls, be a lady! Which smacks deeply of pre-feminist era patriarchy. Thanks, but no thanks, I’d rather not be patronized.

I am in total agreement with the few who have voiced the concern that male leadership in morality is *sorely* lacking, both in society and in the Church (as a whole, not speaking of leadership but laity).

Consider that Biblically, leadership *is* assigned to men. Adam did not lead Eve, nor did he remain firm in his own innocence in order to intercede for her from a standpoint of his own sinlessness, but instead he capitulated his leadership role and *sinned* (Eve was deceived the Bible says). So he was no example to teach her. And he had no stand upon which to plead her case. And he had no power to protect her or lead her back to righteousness. Instead of leading, he followed.

I see a display of that same error in the above written article.

The anointing flows from the head, even down to the skirts of Aaron’s garments. Not from the foot up to the head. Not from the follower to the leader.

To say “Women must (do this or that) to improve society” is to emasculate men. It is to further take away their leadership role, responsibility, and moral compass.

Rather, yes, let the women return to modesty by means of “the older women teaching the younger women” as the Bible says.

But let the lessons of modesty first and foremost begin with the older men teaching the younger men how, as Job said, to “make a covenant with my eyes, wherefore then should I *look* upon a maid” and to “guard (his) heart with all diligence” and to “stand, and, having done all, stand!” and to “quit you like men!” and teach them to “think on these things; whatsoever things are pure, lovely…”

Let the lessons of modesty begin with real men teaching the young men to “present your body a living sacrifice to God, holy and acceptable which is your *reasonable* service” ...and to.. “be transformed by the renewing of your mind, proving what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God” (Romans 12)

Yes, Let the men teach their sons the practical truth that, in fact and in deed - a woman *is* attracted to the male body, so, *cover your legs* *button up your shirt* *pull up your britches* and *keep your hands to yourself* - even as the priests wore breeches *under* their robes “for modesty” (the idea is not to revert to OT standards but to realize that even in walking up a few stairs, they realized they could become immodest if not properly covered)

Let the men, if they want women they can treasure, teach their sons to treasure women.

“Son, Thank Mom for dinner each night. Help sister carry her books. Take the trash out like a responsible man without having to be told. Open doors for girls. Offer, yes, offer to help - and graciously do so without complaint, or graciously accept the declination of help - but offer it on your own, son, *because* you are a *MAN*”

Tell your sons, by word and by *your own* example, “Man up, son, be the man that inspires a young lady to be a young lady!”

If you are asking women to take the lead *once again* - you are admitting your unwillingness to take the lead yourself.

And you are abdicating your role as leader, protector, provider - and taking on the role of cowering & hiding in fear, and, when pressed by your *own* sin, you are blaming woman - just as Adam did.

“Pretty” it up all you want to, but let’s face it, the “hot” and shameful truth is that the foundational responsibility *begins* with men. Just ask Job. Or Joseph. Or Adam.

Or just ask Jesus.

This blog post has become the subject of another blog post by a lady blogger in India.
She has referred and linked to this post and also commented on it and her blog post has attracted quite a few comments.
What is interesting is that the comments by Indian readers are at variance with the views of most American readers.
I would have expected the opposite.
If interested in seeing how people from the other end of the world think about this issue, please visit the following link.

http://indianhomemaker.wordpress.com/2011/12/23/that-special-combination-of-beauty-and-innocence-the-pretty-inspires-men-to-protect-and-defend-it/#comments

Greetings to all readers on the occasion of Christmas from a reader in India
G Vishwanath
Bangalore, India

This is what ugly girls say! LOL!

My husband and I were just commenting while trying to find decent, modest clothes for our daughters how hard it is to find a store that sales them.  I noticed that feminine clothes have given way to ‘sexy’.  My husband said he found a women who dressed for femininity was much more attractive than one who dressed trying to show the most skin.  There is something that calls to the heart of a man when he sees a woman who dresses to be feminine.  The other kind of dressing is calling to something else on a man.

My husband and I were just commenting while trying to find decent, modest clothes for our daughters how hard it is to find a store that sales them.  I noticed that feminine clothes have given way to ‘sexy’.  My husband said he found a women who dressed for femininity was much more attractive than one who dressed trying to show the most skin.  There is something that calls to the heart of a man when he sees a woman who dresses to be feminine.  The other kind of dressing is calling to something else from a man.

Good article, but you’re wrong that “men” prefer pretty to hot. “You” prefer pretty to hot. Don’t generalize. Many men prefer hot.

What needs to become clear is that both men and women have two competing mating strategies. One leads to monogamy, and the other leads to polygyny. The culture that focuses on “hot” doesn’t get married, because it’s all about hook-ups and getting sexed by the hottest person you can find on a Friday night. A culture that focuses on “pretty” is looking at (in additional to physical attractiveness) the personality characteristics that make a good spouse. This leads to a marriage society.

But don’t confuse your wants with what “men” or “women” want. Some people like the status quo.

Pretty went out of style when women started wearing pants. If women had to look at men wearing pants all the time they would be robbed of the image and likeness God mad in man, masculinity. Seeing women in pants looks as silly to me as seeing men in dresses. We don’t get to see the femininity God intended us to see. Pants on women is not pretty at all. It looks ridiculous. Especially those clothes that are business suits made for women. They look half man half women. Gross. why do women want to act like men work like men and dress like men? Are they ashamed of being women?

maybe if a whole generation hadn’t sucked our souls and innocence dry with prescription drugs like ritalin and adderall, we wouldn’t have grown up to hot-headed, angry sluts. sorry, moralfag boomers from another time, pretty is dead and cynicism is the next sexy. flog yourselves first for being ignorant and starting the evil. naivety isn’t an excuse to bash what you can’t possibly understand.

@ Lector at Mass I understand what you’re saying; you’re right.  I guess for me, though, the word bears nasty connotations.  I would a thousand times rather be referred to as “Pretty” than “Hot”.  I know one guy who calls me hot all the time, but as you said, he doesn’t mean it in a bad way at all.  He means he thinks I’m very pretty.  Thank you for making this clear to me. :)

Ok, first of all, what the author is clearly trying to express is that women nowadays are so caught up in being “hot” that they lose all respect from men because they don’t respect themselves enough to stop “dressing to impress”.  This I agree with and it’s really quite obvious in modern society; However, Men are obviously too blame for this because most single men are not out looking for a real relationship at a bar or any other place involving alcohol and “hot” women, they are simply looking for a one-night stand. Charlie Sheen in the old “Two and a Half Men” is a perfect example of this. Of course ALL men are attracted to “hot” women, it is in our nature; however, women who portray themselves as “hot” might as well stamp “EASY” on their forehead. Just as a predator seeks out the weak or sick prey, men seek out the “hot” women to take advantage of, and in no way intend to start a REAL commitment. Yes “hot” women attract more attention, but that attention will only last for a brief night and will inevitably lead to sex with one “lucky” guy who will have bragging rights for a week or two till the next cycle of “hunting hot women” begins. Women think they want a “bad boy”, but those women just have not caught onto the modern day “game” that single men continue to play with naive “hot” women. This cycle will continue as long as alcohol is involved.

@ MJ Laurito I agree with everything you said, but to some extent, women brought upon themselves this pain by their “emancipation” back when Women’s Rights came out.  I, for one, cannot understand why women would want to be like men.  I’d rather not work out of home; I love sewing and children and cooking and cleaning and really all things feminine and homey.  But of course I DO know some girls who have said, “Oh, I can’t stand not working!” They have had a job since they were 14-years-old, they have children either before or after marriage and send them to daycare while they work.  Sure, for a single mom, she needs the money to support her child(ren).  But if women would learn to do things correctly, there wouldn’t be all these problems.  I may be mistaken, but I *think* there’s a reason for a girl getting married to a man before she has children. [sarcastic smile]  He’s the one who is supposed to “bring home the bread”. That’s also why fathers need to teach their sons to be responsible and take care of their mothers and sisters in the home and, ultimately, their wives and children someday (unless they become religious, of course, but even the religious need to possess these admirable qualities!).

I love your explanation of how fathers should train sons.  In my family, there was none of that, and oh you can see the negative repercussions!  Most of my brothers don’t know how to treat women and girls as ladies because they never saw the example from their father!  A priest once told me and my mom, “Boys will follow their father” and there is no doubt in my mind that he was right. 

Men degrade and debase women (even men who are known in church circles as “good men”—I’ve seen it first-hand) on a daily basis; it’s hugely saddening.  I’ve tried to be a true lady my entire life, and for the most part, men and boys treat me with respect.  But I’ve found that it’s the men I’m closest to, the ones who should *most* treat me and my sisters and mother with respect, who fall far short on that regard.  It makes girls like me wonder, “IS there a decent boy in this entire world who would make a husband such as I know I’m supposed to wait for and find?”  There’s still hope, though, because my friend once told me, “If there’s girls like you, then there must be one or two guys like that also.”

@RoseAngel:  No problem.  Some men (myself included) view HOT as “very pretty” —period.  Nothing more.

Back in the day a woman would want to appear virtuous because to do otherwise would be damaging to her career prosepect (marriage). There was a career in which hotness was an asset (prostitute) but that was generally considered the career of last resort.  That being said, I still don’t get the feminist obsession with sluttiness.  Anyone wearing their sexuality so blatantly out there is sad.  If I went to see my male accountant and he was wearing a plunging v-neck with exploding chest hair and a Wonder-Bra jock strap, he wouldn’t exactly inspire my respect.  Furthermore, there is nothing abnormal about judging by appearances.  We don’t always have the luxury of really getting to know someone.  Most of the time, we have to size up a person quickly, thus appearance cues—not 100% accurate, but still necessary.  Anyway, I love this article because I thought I was alone in the whole Grease issue.  I HATED that movie for the last scene alone.  I was in Jr. High when it came out and kind of busty.  Busty made boys (and creepily, men) intrusive (how that kind of attention has always felt to me) and blind and oftimes stupid and so I worked (still do) overtime trying to put the focus on the rest of my “assets” and so the thought of a person selling out and strapping herself into a full-length leather bustier in order to endow the world with one more greaser just bugged me.  (BTW, in spite of my modesty I’ve been proposed to by nearly everyone I’ve dated, kind of annoying at times—not to brag, just saying.)

@Jason:  You wrote:  Ok, first of all, what the author is clearly trying to express is that women nowadays are so caught up in being “hot” that they lose all respect from men because they don’t respect themselves enough to stop “dressing to impress”.    We have not heard from the author (Mr. Archbold), however it appears you are including *all* women.  I do not find your comment to be true for young Catholic and Christian women.  Hopefully, Catholic and Christian parents have “taught” their daughters what it is inappropriate clothing for them to wear.  Men are visual beings.  There is no getting around that.  However, the idea that appropriate, dignified, and contemporary stylish clothing cannot be found in the malls for young women is disingenuous.  Sounds like some people not looking very hard.

Not bad overall but idealizing “innocence” is creepy. Women in more civilized times did not attempt to project innocence—what they had was dignity. That’s what’s missing now. Every woman should have dignity and self-respect, but it seems a bit absurd to think of, say, a ninety-year-old grandmother having “innocence.” Innocence is for children. I agree with your remarks about “hotness” but please don’t try to infantilize women as an alternative.

Romano claimed, “No fault divorce? Look at the stats, men almost always end up wealthier than their ex-wives do.”

Yes, please do look at the statistics.  The genuine ones, not the distortions and lies told by feminists.  Then ask any investment advisor, “Do you recommend divorce to men as a way to increase their wealth?”

Just look around you.  What father kicked out of the home by the female who initiated that divorce (the very typical case) and living in an apartment enjoys a “higher standard of living” than before?

@Micha - although your points are completely off the track of the original post, I think it bears answering. My comments below are based on what is common in the USA:

While the man may not have a higher standard of living than *he* had before the divorce, he will overall have a much higher standard of living than the woman with children after a divorce, both because she is bearing the weight of their expenses and because typically women earn 77 cents to every dollar a man earns at the same job (Census statistics as of 2009, the last year compiled).

This isn’t even presuming the man is uncooperative, manipulative, controlling or, in many cases, a deadbeat, in assisting with childcare. Add the incredible number of men who will not even bother to support their own children, or who will force the woman to go to court before he bothers to pay a dime to feed his children, and the statistics bode far worse for the women and children than for the man.

Also, the man at that point typically has been able to pursue advances in his career unhindered by women’s issues which keep them in lower paying jobs, such as time off for pregnancies, limited flexibility in scheduling due to responsibilities of raising children, and being the typical parent taking leave for their child’s sick days, etc - all of which makes him much more highly employable than her.

Long term, the man comes out far ahead of the woman, and short term if the woman had been a stay at home mom, the divorce can be financially devastating for her as well as the kids.

This is not feminist distortion, this is everyday reality for the vast majority of middle- and lower-income families.

“The genuine ones (statistics), not the distortions and lies told by feminists.”

Heh. Pretty much anytime a feminist opens her mouth, or sets fingers to keyboard, whoppers are emitted. Jaw-dropping whoppers. “600,000 U.S. women die each year from illegal abortions.” Yeah, right. Total lie. “Every year at the Super Bowl thousands of women are beaten by the men they live with.” Complete fabrication. Shameless. “Devoted love between man and woman was an invention of the Middle Ages.” Oh, yeah? Ever read the story of Jacob and Rachel in Genesis? From a couple of thousand years B.C. Unbelievable.

And that people still believe *any*thing any self-professed feminist has to say on any subject whatsoever, just proves that P.T. Barnum was right. (“There’s a sucker born every minute.”)

I have long since come to believe that if a feminist author or academic remarks, “it’s raining out”, then I’d be wise to grab my sunglasses before heading out the door. The Exact Opposite! One-hundred-eighty degrees. Still best to check: even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day. But for the most part, whatever a feminist says, the smart money is that there is approximately 150 to 220 degrees difference between that pronouncement and the actual truth.

What Modesty meant when I, and thousands of women were growing up.

Tight girdles that gave you gastric distress and left marks on your body.

Pantyhose in sweltering weather.

Tight necklines and long sleeves in ditto

No warm pants in freezing weather.

Is it any wonder that when we got the chance we rebelled against uncomfortable clothing?

I agree with this article. However I think the homeschooling and conservative communities can edge way too much on the other side.I am a conservative,catholic mom of 7 children and 33 years old. I all too many times find these people(homeschooling,latin mass goers) extremely judgemental and they just sit and glare at others when they are dressed inmodestly. Should we really be treating others like this? Im not saying its right,but if a girl is dressed inmodestly at church,should you sit and glare at her and judge her or should we worry about our own souls and offer up a small prayer for her? Taxcollecters and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of heaven before these judgemental people. We are ALL sinners and these are evil times,but sitting around judging these people is not going to help anyone.

Thank you for sharing.  I have 2 girls and we have tried to teach them PRETTY, not hot.  They don’t always fit in and that is OK, because they can be an example and help to change a generation.  Most importantly they can affect the future generations by teaching their children.  God Bless you!

Just going to say really quickly that I think a lot of people are getting confused on what “innocent” really means.  It doesn’t mean “doe-eyed” and “naive”.  It means, simply, unsullied.  How can a true man say he doesn’t want a girl who is innocent, then???

Innocent: (Dictionary definition) Lack of guile or corruption; purity

My comment has more to do with several of the other comments upstream.
I’m trying to teach my daughters *kindness*.  I think it is dangerous to talk about modesty if it is isolated too far from *charity*...as if it is a virtue unto itself.  Parents also do their daughters a disservice if they teach them to dress in an odd way.  It is important that we *elevate* culture and evangelize it.  Behaving in a separatist fashion (“women shouldn’t wear pants”) is creepy.  The devil tries to tempt from many directions.  Women shouldn’t have to tent and drape their bodies to keep men from *sinning*  Sin is something he (or she) consents to and cultivates in his own soul.  Also, young women should be taught the wonder and beauty ( technique when the time comes!) of sexuality in its proper context…Think flavor of The Song of Songs… Shame deforms.

RoseAngel, you are using only part of the definition. The ones I found included “simplicity; absence of guile or cunning; naivete,” “lack of knowledge or understanding,” “harmlessness, innocuousness.” None of these are something a grown women should strive for. They may be present in young, innocent people, but they are not an ideal, and they have no place in adult life. The only way that innocence is desirable in adults is when it refers to freedom from sin—which is something both men and women should strive for. But as you may have noticed this blog post is only aimed at women, and there are no articles telling men to be innocent. Why do you think that is?

Oh God! Please, no! Not another call for female modesty as the solution for all that ails modern civilization. I’m so sick of it that I want to rend my clothes off.

All off.

More oppressive drivel from the (pat)riarchy. Don’t worry so much about the women, we’re doing just fine with our educational pursuits, ability to vote, and lack of caring for your hyper-conservative wants and needs.

Thank you for clarifying pretty! This is very simply and well put. I have been very disturbed at how the mind set of our society has degraded to thinking filth is normal. In our church group we have been working hard at encouraging our girls to have the courage to stand out and be “pretty” and virtuous. I am always encouraged to read from other places how others feel the same. Thank You and God Bless!

RoseAngel wrote:

“@ MJ Laurito I agree with everything you said, but to some extent, women brought upon themselves this pain by their “emancipation” back when Women’s Rights came out.”

Actually, Roseangel, your post seems, not only to have nothing to do with what I said, this comment lets me know you missed it:

You said: “But if women would learn to do things correctly, there wouldn’t be all these problems.”

Ahhhhhhhhmmm ..... No.

Please go back and actually read my post, since you responded to it.

Let’s *begin* - as is Biblically proper - with what *men* (the leaders, as you say) can do, so that, “there wouldn’t be all these problems.”

My post, in fact, had nothing to do with feminism or with what women do or don’t do. 

And that, actually, is the point of my post…

...that males are actually emasculating males by blaming the responsibility of their own sins on women.

Instead of blaming women, men need to be taking the lead in repentance, modesty, sacrifice & self-denial, self-responsibility, and a proper view of their own part concerning gender roles (in the USA). Taking the initiative, not casting blame, will empower men to be men.

And it will inspire women who wish to be ladies, to be ladies.

It is, after all, the men who should be inspiring the women, especially if they are wanting to *be* the leader.

If women must manipulate, cajole, nag, or ‘inspire’ men to be men, then we have no men at all.

...Only irresponsible adults blaming women for the decline in society caused by their lack of manhood.

And, just as the Bible instructs a woman in how to respond to *her own* husband, these men might find their own wife, girlfriend, or future spouse much more “pretty” when they become much more “handsome”

Any positive improvement begins at the top.

@athenian_oracle:  Men have sub zero “wants and needs” from the Rosie O’Donnell’s of the culture.  You are sorely mistaken if you think your comments project any endearing quality to either sex.  No doubt offering your hand to **men** when exchanging the sign of “peace” at Mass is not happening.

...and, btw, I agree with what the original article is saying concerning women’s lack of modesty today - but not with the writer’s conclusion on the matter.

The original post not only lacks logic, it lacks a basic Scriptural foundation for the root cause, and cure, of the problem.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Most women who dress ‘hot’ are trying to attract the approval and attention of - men!

This, and the sexual promiscuity of our society as a whole, should show *men* that women seek their approval, and that women are just as tempted by male immodesty (both in dress, and in the actions that *encourage* women to dress and act ‘hot’), as men are tempted.

This *is* a one-size-fits-all sin.

And the reason it *should* be viewed as a *man’s* sin rather than just as a woman’s sin is because *You*, men, are the ones who can - and *should* - be moving the direction of society toward modesty.

Don’t fault a woman in a skirt above her knees if you flaunt your sexy legs in same-length shorts.

Just. Don’t.

The false pretense that women (who also have testosterone, boys) are not “as visual” as men is simply “Pretty” hogwash.

It doesn’t sound very “Pretty” to admit it, but, since the dawn of time, women have loved those pecs that you men work so hard to pump up, and you know it.

Cause I’m pretty sure you’re not pumping and flexing them to show the boys, now, are you? ;)

In the book of Revelation, Our Lord (and example)Jesus Christ describes Himself as “dressed to the foot.”  Now this was in a *Vision*, mind you, to a *man* - who was on an *island* for goodness sake! And it’s a detail that did not even have to be *mentioned* - in a book that would be for *all* generations…

...By Someone Who could have shown Himself naked (and we would have glorified that) or in burmuda shorts or a Roman skirt, had He chosen to!
And yet, He chose to mention His modesty.

Justify it all you want to - He is our example for *all* generations and the principle is the same no matter what the modern cut of the fabric, so ... modesty is *also* a one-size-fits-all virtue.

We need more Christian men of all denominations to try it on for size.

I am the director of a pregnancy care center. I *know* what kind of men these women are trying to please. And repeatedly they reveal that *is* their motivation. How many times have I heard a woman say, “I have to get an abortion or I will lose (the relationship with the father of the baby)!” Women *dress* to please and attract men. Plain and simple.

And I look around and see supposedly Christian men being no more modest, no more thoughtful, no more responsible, than the boyfriends/husbands of my clients. Men in parishes and churches all around this country.

And you *wonder* why society is immodest?

Button up your shirt - oh, say, *PUT* your shirt *ON* for a change, while you’re at it, perhaps?

Show yourself to be *MORE* modest than the world. *BE* the example of what *you* want to see out there in the world.

And in the meantime, if your daughter has not seen a modest, responsible, godly man in her own dad? ..... please don’t yell at her when she comes into my pregnancy center, having slept with a man who *isn’t* modest, responsible, or godly.

If your sister has not seen a responsible, modest, caring brother, please don’t diss her when she brings home a boyfriend just like you.

If *you* aren’t being the kind of man for whom a woman would *want* to be “pretty” - then please don’t be surprised when you can’t *find* that woman for a beloved spouse.

So…if you want an accurate article on the subject, entitle it, “The Death of “Handsome”” and I think you will be closer to the heart of the matter.

It may be that the buck stops with women, but it should *start* with men.

@MJ Laurito:  Your above comments to RoseAngel are on the mark.  There are two sets of people in this world;—men and women who walk in the “natural” and those who follow Christ Jesus.  Men and women who follow Christ walk in the “spiritual” —His Spirit.  Believers are called to live above the culture.  Women respect men who ACT like men.  Men who walk in the Spirit of Christ respond to femininity.  Christ-like women have no need to test their “wow” power in order to attract Christ-like men.

Some comments on “modesty”.  “Modest” clothing ends up being uncomfortable. Tight girdles that give you heartburn. Panty hose in sweltering weather. Closed necklines and long sleeves in ditto. No pants, not even in freezing weather.

A woman cannot be modest unless she is suffering?

Also I am distubed by maintaing the division between “nice girls” and sluts, which it is based on the old double standard.  As long as men can be sexually promiscuous without penalties, then sluts will be needed to keep the “purity” of nice girls. Men will take their base needs there, as to a toilet, and will return to “respecting” the others - while saying to themsevles that they are sweet and innocent because they are ignorant, as education spoils women.

So now the line between “nice girls” and sluts are being blurred, the “nice girls” not being put in a pedestal, and the sluts being given awareness that they too have dignity.

When you idealize the past, remember, for every nice girl that got praised for it, another woman was degraded.  I for one I am glad to see it go, too slowly for my taste.

I agree Faith and MJ Laurito! ...also, pretty or Hotness is in the eyes of the beholder. Don’t we as men determine what we see as hot or pretty? Can pretty be hot? Yes and yes. There has never been some time in the past that was the golden age per say or the ultimate time to be alive or the best way people acted…never. Do you really want to go back to yesteryear? Really?? Do you really prefer women of the past past?? How far will we go with this? Live like its the 50’s? The 60’s? 40’s? which would you choose?? Also, I don’t disagree with homeschooling but do we really think the answer is to pull all the “good kids” out of public school and home-school them?? Raise them to love God and His Word, respect authority, seek truth and justice, live modestly and be generous and trust them to God…He gave them to us but only for a while. You can only be successful at any of this if it is modeled to them, and it still wont turn out like you want it to.

I actually find that pretty sexist. For one thing, there are MANY different ways to define pretty, and it’s not limited to women. Also, from what you mentioned about old movie stars, you don’t care if women actually are innocent, but only if they make it LOOK like they are. And, as someone else commented on the article, it’s not a woman’s job to look a certain way to please men. Women can embrace who they want to be and dress accordingly. (And men are responsible for their own actions and words! That is not related to how a woman looks!) Is there an alarming number of young girls and women in the world in a huge hurry to grow up and dress “sexy?” (let’s call it what it is). Of course. But I think we can all agree that self-reflection and self-improvement are what’s needed here more than fashion advice. And maybe that’s what you were trying to say, but you got lost along the way. Finally, there is a trend in women’s fashion that is swinging back the other way to more modest clothing with high collars and long sleeves. Just look at the wedding dress from Twilight (and you know that inspires girls across the nation). Not that I saw Twilight. I just wanted to know what the dress looked like. Or, more favorably, look at Kate Middleton! I guess I just didn’t like the angle this article came from. I felt it to be quite sexist.

@Adriana Pena:  You seem to have problem with men in general and women who comport themselves with dignity and respectful clothing.  Women cannot be segregated (as you term) into nice girls and “sluts.”  Furthermore, modest clothing does not need to be uncomfortable for you.  Since you say a tight girdle gives you gastric distress and leaves marks on your body, why bother?  The solution is to not wear one.

To Adriana - because you claim that dressing modestly is uncomfortable, that suggests to me that you really haven’t given it a try for any length of time in your adult life. (Adult, meaning you have the choice of what to buy and wear, as opposed to uncomfortable clothing forced upon you by parents).

Because I dress modestly by almost anyone’s standards (although there may be some Amish who would take issue to things like my color choice, perhaps) and, having come from a jeans-and-t-shirt, sweatpants-rule, kind of past, I can say that this is the most comfortable stage of my life!

I have noticed that most people associate ‘dressed up’ with ‘uncomfortable’ and although I receive many compliments on how nice/dressy I look, I can say that if it ‘ain’t’ comfortable, it doesn’t go on this body! lol

So, I would encourage you to either try it, or at least not perpetuate the myths. I hear others talking amongst themselves about how “uncomfortable” dresses (and they mean both dresses and skirts because they don’t wear them often enough to realize the difference in cut, style, and flexibility). I used to say the same tired old things as well - and, like most others, it was simply because I was repeating what I had heard, because I think I owned a total of 13 dresses in my entire life to that point, and eleven were dresses I wore as a bridesmaid and bride.

btw, a few hints if you do want to try it: If you are wearing pantyhose that are uncomfortable, try a size bigger. If you are wearing a skirt that is uncomfortable, I can almost guarantee you it’s the style, shortness, or cut of the skirt that is the issue. Same with tops - they don’t have to be tight at the neck to be modest. If the long-sleeved shirts that professional baseball players wear in the sweltering sun underneath their team jersey is too hot for you (really? what fabric are you choosing?) try three-quarter length, for instance (although I could point out other cooler and modest options)...

...point being… first - let’s not be dishonest. It really is *not* uncomfortable to wear decent, modest, and stylish clothing.

and second… as far as Christians, anyway… let’s suppose just for a minute, let’s *imagine* for a moment that - oh, *wow*!! - you mean we might actually have to experience some minor level of mild *discomfort* (if we didn’t live in a country with so many styles, fabrics, and options) to - gasp - to - breathe, breathe - to follow Christ???

...You mean…. like…. *sacrifice* a little bitty something for the sake of *looking* like a modest Christian man or woman?

Oh, let my shocked soul perish at the thought!!

;)

Do let us ‘get over’ ourselves!!

And, shall we stop making all these pitiful little excuses?

I knew the comments would turn into “women shouldn’t wear pants”.

@Adriana - it’s the whole mother !@#$% dichotomy all over again. I don’t frequent churches because I find the prehistoric misogynistic overtones of most people like (pat)riarch to be suffocating both men and women.

To MrsCeeCee - please note that my comments about skirts/dresses were specifically geared to answer comments by another poster. Yes, the Bible does say that men should wear that which pertains to their own gender and women should wear that which pertains to their own gender. It is in the midst of a chapter that contains other practical commands that we still obey today as well, such as building codes to prevent people from dying, environmental laws which protect conservation of animals, etc. All of it is practical and appropriate to all cultures. What “pertains” to your gender in the culture in which you live will be different than, say, someone who lives in China or India or Africa. My post was in reference only to the fact that most who complain about skirts/dresses really have little experience with *modest* skirts/dresses.

I think Pat meant that in the past a person at least tried to attain an ideal (not so much that dishonesty is honorable).  The ideal was there, that’s the point.  Standards of all kinds have been trashed and it’s not like we’re all just burning with happiness.  Now what do we have?  Freedom?  Really?  Are you really free to be a tender woman?  A nurturing woman?  A girly-girl?  What if you REALLY want to be those things?  What if you truly have no burning desire to fight fires, wars or crime?  What if you actually prefer cookie baking to the practice of law.  Guarantee you will not feel free in this day and age to admit those things.  As for comfort, Wonder bras are not comfortable.  Tight jeans are not comfortable.  Spiked heels are REALLY not comfortable.

@athenian_oracle:  You wrote —“it’s the whole mother !@#$% dichotomy all over again. I don’t frequent churches because I find the prehistoric misogynistic overtones of most people like (pat)riarch to be suffocating both men and women.”

Secular comments like yours are common on the NCR blogs, —very common.  The larger problem you have has nothing to do with women’s clothing.  You are free to wear what you choose.  Your problem is not with the author (Pat Archbold) or even with male authority —but with the Lord’s authority over your life.  You merely use transference to not address God directly but make men the object of your hostility to Christ.  You may have been mistreated or abused by men or even the church at one time.  However, I suggest your next visit to most any Catholic or Christian church would most likely dispel your perception of how real Catholic and Christian people actually think.  You will be accepted and loved.

Amen!!!  I am disgusted at the lengths some women will go to in order to snare a man!  This was tastefully written, but made an amazing point at the same time.  Thank you for writing this article!

I just want to thank Jennifer Armintrout for her comment. She seems to be the only one here who regards women as people.

Such a fascinating obsession you have with the appearance of youthful innocence in potential partners and people you view as objects of worldly desire. Clearly, the leadership of the Church’s priests is wearing off on the lay folk.

this is !@#$% retarded. youre a special lamb.

MJLaurito, I had to follow the “skirts only” rule for many years. It is silly, impractical, and yes, uncomfortable. What’s more, I knew there was no rational reason for it. Yammering about “sacrifice” is nothing but emotional manipulation if you can’t back it up with reason.

The proof is in the pudding.  I’ve lived in this “conservative” Catholic world all my life (went to one of the most conservative Catholic colleges in the US), and I can assure you that 20 years later, the “pretty” aren’t any happier or better off in their marriages than the “hot”.  In fact, the “pretty” have quite often ended up getting the short end of the stick for all that “innocence”, as they went into these “conservative” Catholic marriages with eyes wide shut to what was really going on in their relationshipes.

What’s left is either the pretty ones waking up and realizing how having an idealized fantasy of a place this earth never was or will be can really lead to making some poor choices for themselves when it comes to mates OR the pretty ones turning into complete sour grapes sitting in judgement on the hot ones.

I’m happy to say I am hot, happily married for 20 years, and have six children being raised by a father who completely respects his wife.  I am also strong, opinionated, powerful, and intelligent.  We are trying our best to raise our girls—and boys—to have self-respect and to treat others with the same.

“Pretty” vs. “hot”: life isn’t this simple, never has been and never will be. Raising the next generation to have the ability to form strong relationships that lead to the happy marriages most of us would prefer our society to be based on will require much more than such superficial attitudes toward both women and men.

Looking at the “orthodox” Catholic couples and families I’ve known does not inspire me with much hope.  Relationships are infantile and power-based, and what matters the most is appearances, not reality (see how the author longs for the day women appeared innocent, although they were anything but).  These families look great in Church on Sunday morning, but for those of us who have been here long enough to see what goes on behind the scenes, we know better. 

Authenticity is what is lacking, and this article confirms to me that for many, what really matters isn’t what IS, but what it looks like.  For this reason, I don’t think most “conservative” Catholic marriages inspire anybody in the general public to want to embrace that lifestyle.  Just the .02 from somebody growing up here in this homeschooling, prairie-skirt wearing, liberally educated (Aristotle and Aquinas, anybody), latin-mass loving small slice of American Catholicism.  Take it or leave it, but the next time you wonder why nobody in society seems to care what we say or do anymore, perhaps one place to look is at lack of authenticity and true Christianity.  I’m just sayin’

@Not Bothered - this is exactly the kind of control that comes from religious practices designed to manipulate and dis-empower the people. I don’t understand how “gender” dictates that women should wear skirts and men should wear pants. Look at the kilt in Scotland. If anything, you’d think that (gender-wise) men would need the extra breathing room between their legs, making skirts the ideal clothing for men and pants the ideal clothing for women.

It’s unfortunate that this author has yet again mobilized the !@#$%/mother dichotomy, basically implying that women either have “the appearance of innocence” or we are heathens in leather mini-skirts. I will agree whole heartedly (and from an agnostic point of view) that the media has become far too hypersexualized, especially with regard to how women are represented. However, it is a MUCH broader spectrum than this author would have his readership believe. I can wear skirts “above the knee” and not “save myself for marriage” and still end up being a wonderful wife, mother, and member of society.

Really, it’s not God who cares if women wear skirts or pants, it’s men who would like to use religion to control women (as they have for centuries) because they are obsessed with the idea of the virgin woman as wife.

@Lector at Mass - don’t worry about me. I have never been abused by a man (I am in a very loving marriage), my husband and I are both equals in our relationship. We both work outside and inside the home and we both contribute to our family. We have no room for religion in our marriage, in our home, or in our lives. We live by a moral code that would be quite compatible with most religious people, except for the fact that we don’t treat women as objects who must “love and obey” their husbands, and we do not live to please a fictional omnipotent being.

I know that many churches do wonderful things for those in need and that they can build a good community in which neighbours take care of each other. I also know that many religions have used their “God” as an excuse to start wars, kill people, and abuse women and children. I am by no means trying to lump you in with the latter - I am sure you belong to a wonderful church like the one I described first. Still, history provides us with lots of examples where organized religion has lead to many evils, and as such, I find my sense of community in other circles.

I’m sorry that you have assumed that the only reason I might feel this way about the writings of this author would be because I had been abused at some point in my life. I have had a wonderful life and have never been abused. These are the feelings of a woman who has enjoyed being treated as an equal by her partner, and watches as other women make unnecessary sacrifices in order to assume her place as subservient to men, in the name of the bible or religious teachings.

The writings of this particular author reek of a kind of “virgin fetishism” which is still prevalent in many conservative cultures today.

MJ:  Read well.  Pantyhose in sweltering weather. I tried it. Wonderful discovery: There are three areas in the body that produce badly smelling sweat. Pantyhose traps it in two of those places and allows to decompose next to your body.  Wonderful stink is prodeuced.  Also the delightful experience of feeling the sweat next to your skin, not being allowed to evaporate quickly.  Makes you feel real clean and pure, does it?  No, make you feel like a stinky goat. 

Closed collars and long sleeves. In hot weather it makes you feel like you are asfixiating.

Skirts in spring, summer (were it not for the cursed pantyhose) and early fall are OK. But come real cold weather, and they do nothing to protect your legs against freezing cold.  That is my complaint, not that skirts are unconfortable by themselves.

Really, MJ, you should read first and comment later.

It’s always interesting that when a woman takes a contrary position to a man and defends women’s lib, no matter how diplomatically she does it, she’s labeled as angry or hostile.  Jennifer A is simply pointing out the fact that this article perpetuates the notion that a woman should dress to please a man.  It’s astonishing that the criticism comes from other women.  Way to unify.  The truth is often unpopular so good for Jennifer for going against the grain.  Those who don’t agree, stop hating.  You can disagree without attacking.  I think that the decline of modesty, or a desire to be ‘pretty’ is driven by wanting to please men, which is ridiculous.  This is my opinion.  I’m stating it the way Jennifer A stated hers.  Beyond that, I can’t help but wonder what the reaction to a companion piece, say, ‘The death of gentility’ exhorting men to bring back the gentlemanly would elicit. 
In response to ed zeppelin or should I call you Fred Flinstone?  Your comment is idiotic (notice I didn’t say he’s an idiot.)  ed said:  “In Response to Jennifer A who wrote >Women are not objects put on this earth to please men with our appearance…< well, it sure seems that way. We’re seeing an entire generation of girls- young women- who collectively have the moral rectitude of an alley cat. Congratulations on the whole sexual equality “I am woman hear me roar” thing. The first girl who got drunk and flashed her breasts doomed the rest.”
Save the condescending ‘congratulations,’ ed… we’re clearly not there yet.  While it’s true that women are often as guilty as men of setting back women’s lib, I would argue that it goes to efforts to please men.  Misguided and also idiotic.  That said, the drunk girl flashing her breasts is not the thinking woman trying to advance equality for our gender.  Women should be less concerned with dressing to please (or doing anything to please men) than fighting for equal pay and the like.  Okay, have at it.  Label me angry or hostile.  And no, I’m not ugly, I’m a feminist, which people, read: men, often seek to diminish by tying to appearance.  As long as the focus is on the way women look, dress, etc. attention is not being paid to the issues that affect women that truly matter.  The bottom line is that women are still judged, first and foremost, on their appearance.  A double standard is alive and well.  Control can look like concern and many men are threatened when they can’t exert it.  I’m with you, Jennifer A.  Wanna go clothes shopping?  Seems like we’d get along well and I’d value a woman’s opinion on my appearance more than a man’s.  And no, I’m not a lesbian, which I’m stating only because that’s probably where the criticism would go next.

It’s always interesting that when a woman takes a contrary position to a man and defends women’s lib, no matter how diplomatically she does it, she’s labeled as angry or hostile.  Jennifer A is simply pointing out the fact that this article perpetuates the notion that a woman should dress to please a man.  It’s astonishing that the criticism comes from other women.  Way to unify.  The truth is often unpopular so good for her for going against the grain.  Those who don’t agree, stop hating.  You can disagree without attacking.  I think that the decline of modesty, or a desire to be ‘pretty’ is driven by wanting to please men, which is ridiculous.  This is my opinion.  I’m stating it the way Jennifer A stated hers.  Beyond that, I can’t help but wonder what the reaction to a companion piece, say, ‘The death of gentility’ exhorting men to bring back the gentlemanly, would elicit. 
In response to ed zeppelin or should I call you Fred Flinstone?  Your comment is idiotic (notice I didn’t say he’s an idiot.)  ed said:  “In Response to Jennifer A who wrote >Women are not objects put on this earth to please men with our appearance…< well, it sure seems that way. We’re seeing an entire generation of girls- young women- who collectively have the moral rectitude of an alley cat. Congratulations on the whole sexual equality “I am woman hear me roar” thing. The first girl who got drunk and flashed her breasts doomed the rest.”
Save the condescending ‘congratulations,’ ed… we’re clearly not there yet.  While it’s true that women are often as guilty as men of setting back women’s lib, again, I would argue that it goes to efforts to please men.  Misguided and also idiotic.  That said, the drunk girl flashing her breasts is not the thinking woman trying to advance equality for our gender.  Women should be less concerned with dressing to please (or doing anything to please men) than fighting for equal pay and the like.  Okay, have at it.  Label me angry or hostile.  And no, I’m not ugly, I’m a feminist, which people, read: men, often seek to diminish by tying to appearance.  As long as the focus is on the way women look, dress, etc. attention is not being paid to the issues that affect women that truly matter.  The bottom line is that women are still judged, first and foremost, on their appearance.  A double standard is alive and well.  Control can look like concern and many men are threatened when they can’t exert it.  I’m with you, Jennifer A.  Wanna go clothes shopping?  Seems like we’d get along well and I’d value a woman’s opinion on my appearance more than a man’s.  And no, I’m not a lesbian, which I’m stating only because that’s probably where the criticism would go next.

It’s always interesting that when a woman takes a contrary position to a man and defends women’s lib, no matter how diplomatically she does it, she’s labeled as angry or hostile.  Jennifer A is simply pointing out the fact that this article perpetuates the notion that a woman should dress to please a man.  It’s astonishing that the criticism comes from other women.  Way to unify.  The truth is often unpopular so good for her for going against the grain.  Those who don’t agree, stop hating.  You can disagree without attacking.  I think that the decline of modesty, or a desire to be ‘pretty’ is driven by wanting to please men, which is ridiculous.  This is my opinion.  I’m stating it the way Jennifer A stated hers.  Beyond that, I can’t help but wonder what the reaction to a companion piece, say, ‘The death of gentility’ exhorting men to bring back the gentlemanly, would elicit. 
In response to ed zeppelin or should I call you Fred Flinstone?  Your comment is idiotic (notice I didn’t say he’s an idiot.)  ed said:  “In Response to Jennifer A who wrote >Women are not objects put on this earth to please men with our appearance…< well, it sure seems that way. We’re seeing an entire generation of girls- young women- who collectively have the moral rectitude of an alley cat. Congratulations on the whole sexual equality “I am woman hear me roar” thing. The first girl who got drunk and flashed her breasts doomed the rest.”
Save the condescending ‘congratulations,’ ed… we’re clearly not there yet.  While it’s true that women are often as guilty as men of setting back women’s lib, again, I would argue that it goes to efforts to please men.  Misguided and also idiotic.  That said, the drunk girl flashing her breasts is not the thinking woman trying to advance equality for our gender.  Women should be less concerned with dressing to please (or doing anything to please men) than fighting for equal pay and the like.  Okay, have at it.  Label me angry or hostile.  And no, I’m not ugly, I’m a feminist, which people, read: men, often seek to diminish by tying to appearance.  As long as the focus is on the way women look, dress, etc. attention is not being paid to the issues that affect women that truly matter.  The bottom line is that women are still judged, first and foremost, on their appearance.  A double standard is alive and well.  Control can look like concern and many men are threatened when they can’t exert it.  I’m with you, Jennifer A.  Wanna go clothes shopping?  Seems like we’d get along well and I’d value a woman’s opinion on my appearance more than a man’s.

GREAT article! I totally agree with you view on pretty vs hot. So much so, that I started an organization to bring the “pretty back” in girls. It’s called the Good Girl Comeback. Check it out: http://www.goodgirlcomeback.com/

I don’t think any of us would deny that there has been dramatic changes since my childhood (1950’s). . . it’s just whether or not you see the changes as seriously wrong as some of us do. I certainly hope my granddaughter aspires to be pretty, not hot.

The message of the article definitely hit home, totally have felt the way the other does. My only critiques would be the extent that the womens lib movement has on this phenomena. Women should not be the only vanguard of “wholesomeness” and purity. I have heard in a multitude of rights movements a message that is very true, that everyone is affected by injustices, young women may be the the “victims” in one sense but young men by accepting certain norms will attract the wrong type of relationships based on objectification and the lot, in the long run it leads to missing the best parts of relationships, love companionship and trust. All of this can’t be on the shoulders of young women alone, young men need to carry their share of the responsibility. Pop culture is definitely hypersexualizing our youth and shaping sexual norms. As parents and family members we need to talk to our impressional youth about sexuality in an age appropriate way. I think the missing link here is talking to our sons. Young men need to know to respect women and be able to recognise ” attention getting” behavior for what it is and challenge young men to look for other qualities in the opposite sex. Young people of any sex/ gender are gong to think that being sexy is akin to adulthood at some point, this is the point at which the family unit needs to come in and explain what adulthood is really about.

@athenian_oracle— You wrote concerning both you and your husband:  “We have no room for religion in our marriage, in our home, or in our lives. We live by a moral code that would be quite compatible with most religious people, except for the fact that we don’t treat women as objects who must “love and obey” their husbands, and we do not live to please a fictional omnipotent being.

Psalm 53 addresses your comment:  “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.”  So why would you bother to visit and comment on this Catholic website?  Your thoughts are more inclined to the secular Huffington Post or AOL.  The idea that Christ Jesus is a “fictional omnipotent being” denies historical eyewitness and recorded impartial evidence.  The fact is, you should be a supporter of Christ since it is He who actually elevated and liberated women.  He did not treat women as chattel or objects.  As for your thoughts that “organized” religion has been the cause of much evil, keep in mind that religion is “man made” while Christianity is not a religion but is a relationship —a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  Men,—(not all men) but Christian men are called by Paul to love and respect their wives as Christ loves His church.  A man who has experienced God’s love in His own life does not treat nor consider his wife as subserviant or less-than.  Likewise, what woman would not willingly submit herself to a husband who loved her in the same way that Christ loves His church?

I saw this as a link on facebook, first time reader of this site. And now, last time reader. The author is obviously not trying to use any scientific evidence to back up his claims, and he does not need to. It’s obviously an opinion article. One that is “pretty” in its simpleton view. If only the world could be rid of those darn women libbers. They really muck it all up - you know looking for decent wages and to be treated like equal human beings. I guess we should just have been OK with Amendment XIX.

Some background - I am a proud feminist. And I LOVE LOVE LOVE men. I have a devoted loving partner in a husband and 2 sweet boys. I consider neither the weaker sex. But obviously there are weaker minded humans. Did you know that boys once wore dresses until they were 6 or 7 years old? Does that make them pretty? And that was only 100 years ago. Gender bias stinks as bad as this flimsy article.

This author rehashes the Madonna vs. prostitute argument, and not in an interesting nor productive way. As if a women can only be one or the other. And her definition of herself is shown only in her choice of clothes/makeup. I would respectfully disagree with the author and most posters. A “pretty” girl can be morally cheap and a “hot” girl can be morally rich. To each their own - and let’s remember to not judge a tart/good girl by her coverings. They will always surprise you, each having free will and a mind of their own.

Lots of judging going on here. Isn’t that job only for God?

Lector:  If you wish to be taken seriously as a debater refrain from making suppositions about the life experiences of your opponents. It is irritating, and as Perry Mason would say, “irrelevant, incompetent, and inmaterial”  Either the propostions advanced are false, and you must demostrate it, or true, in which case you have the right to put them in context.  Attacking the witness is the trick defensen lawyers use to get criminals off the hook.

I have not seen any serious rebuttal that the admiration for “pretty, nice girs” need the existence of “hot slutty girls”, when the double standard is maintained and accepted as normal. It is a mathematical certainty that given a 50-50 distribution of the sexes, men who “score” and women who “do not do it” requires the presence of women who do it - that is prostitutes to keep the equation balanced. Do I see any condemnataion for men who “sow wild oats” along with the bemoaning of the end of “pretty girls”

I can tell you that in Argentina where I grew up there was such a cult of pure womanhood. There was also a very active white slave trade which became famous by the French book “Road to Buenos Aires”.  Victorian England, with its cult of pure womanhood was full of brothels. The cult of pure Southern womandhood was maintatined by the sexual use of slaves.

There is no dichotomy between “nice girl” and “slut” but two faces the same coin.

I don’t think it is ‘dressing to please a man’ insomuch as it is embracing our feminity in a way that does NOT objectify us.

As far as a return to modesty goes, it is all about self respect. I wish women would realize that what they bait their hook with determines who they attract and what they have to do to keep them. And seriously beyond the ‘man’ part—it really is what we are using to promote our identity to the world…is it ‘sexy’ or smart, confident, generous, kind, etc…If we are these things we will be respected within the world—not just lusted after by men.

I don’t think it is ‘dressing to please a man’ insomuch as it is embracing our femininity in a way that does NOT objectify us.

As far as a return to modesty goes, it is all about self respect. I wish women would realize that what they bait their hook with determines who they attract and what they have to do to keep them. And seriously beyond the ‘man’ part—it really is what we are using to promote our identity to the world…is it ‘sexy’ or smart, confident, generous, kind, etc…If we are these things we will be respected within the world—not just lusted after by men.

@NotAVeryGoodArticle
Do you have any understanding of biology? Men and women are not the same in the way they approach sexuality due the fact that their sexuality is totally different.  Men are ever ready and ever able to produce their half of the zygote, at a moment’s notice.  They also do not carry the fetus, nor lactate. Women are only fertile (if that) for a very narrow window during their cycle, and do the above-mentioned activities.  The fact that the sexual cues required for women and men are so different is a testament to this.  Therefore, when you, or anyone else runs around dressing “hot”, you are actually causing men to struggle.  If you want them to respect your mind and be your “friend”, you are making it difficult for them.  Why not help them “think the right thoughts”?  Why hurt your husband?

@ Kate:  Also, you seem to have no understanding of the biological sciences.  It has been demonstrated time and time again in studies, that women dress to impress men. They also dress to impress other women, and somewhat according to their own likes/dislikes, but one of the overarching drivers of how women dress is to impress or attract men.  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/11/health/webmd/main2081501.shtml

@Adriana, please re-read your own posts.  It was you who chose to introduce “sluts” to the discussion.  And you seem quite comfortable using that disgusting label.  If that is how you characterize women, that is your business.  References to Argentina, the white slave trade and brothels in England are relevant only that you see men who participate in such activities are acting “naturally.”  The natural man (and woman)do not walk in the Spirit and are thus carnal in their thinking.  This is a Catholic site whereby Catholic-Christian discussion is expected.  True Catholic-Christian men do not “sow wild oats” nor do such men view this behavior as acceptable and pleasing to the Lord.  Be it man or woman, whatever standards you set (high or low) you will eventually find a willing partner.  If you are called to Christ, you are called not to compromise His standards.

There is plenty of pretty left in the world. It must be your eyes that can’t see it.

Lector:  Why, are you shocked by my not using euphemisms in discussing the issue?  Just because you change the name does not change the thing.  As for “The Catholic Christina man does now sow wild oats”, must I remind you that Argentina is a Catholic country?  That the customers of all those brothels were Catholic men?  Since when did they all became Buddhists?

I learned long ago that what people say and what they do are different things. So, do not answer me with what the ideal “True Christian” does when I describe what most people do.

@Adriana,  you have made my point.  A “Catholic” country, so what?  Do you think that because people go to church they are Catholic—or even Christian?  I do not.  They are only wearing a name tag.  Men visiting brothels or having affairs are living in sin and far removed from Christ.  But I do understand your point.  No wonder so many non-believers consider Catholics and Christians no different from the rest.  Too many say one thing but their actions are that of hypocrites.

Amen, and well said!!

Lector:  Unfortunately true Catholic/Christiasn are few and far between, and we have to live with the rest.  That;s what we have to deal with every day of our lives.  And in a world filled with men who believe that they can do what they want sexually, but that women must be “pure”, I find it disgusting that a “true Chrisian” implies that it is the woman’s fault for not dressing properly.  Until it is said that IT IS THE MAN’S FAULT IF HE STRAYS I cannot endure people bemoaning that women are no longer modest.  You may think that you are spreading the Word of God, but the way it works out, you are making the pimp’s life easier.

Unsubscribe me please

@Adriana:  True Catholic/Christian men are expected to control themselves including any lustful desires regardless of how a woman dresses.  It is a spiritual mindset based upon doing that which is pleasing to the Lord.  He calls men and women to live by a higher standard of behavior and conduct.  Not all women who dress seductively are necessarily attractive.  Nevertheless, a man who walks in Christ does not “dwell” and linger on that which is overt.  Men are responsible for their actions and the consequences thereof.  Because a woman may wear revealing or skimpy clothing should never be considered an invitation to any man.  She should be allowed to wear what she desires without judgment of anyone saying “She was asking for it” since those days are long gone.  I have only been attempting to draw a distinction between *all* men and those for whom Christ Jesus is Lord.  It’s a spiritual mindset as opposed to a natural mindset affecting all areas of life not just sexual.  The same applies to Christian women.  My hope is that we now have a better understanding.

After some time of reflection, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that also during the past 50 years or so that the number of sexual molestations of children has increased. Could it be that sexual predators have to abuse younger and younger victims to achieve the “innocence” factor of the definition of pretty?

It might well be.  When there are no more fake infantile women for their delight, they have to turn to the real thing, the perverts.

Now, should grown women be infatilized for the delight of perverts?

“Pretty” is a patriarchal construct. Who are you to decree what is and isn’t considered acceptable?!

I am deeply offended by this article and its views on female attractiveness. As a feminist I believe strongly that women have the right to portray themselves any way that they want and to compare them to a era where women were supposed to act demure then that is a very nostalgic and in a way sexist view. A women should have the way to express her beauty and attractiveness anyway she wants. I agree that men are at fault for treating women like disposable items but I believe it goes deeper than just that. Society is to blame for the perception of what is beautiful and pretty. If you want to criticize something then maybe you should criticize the way society suggest women be a certain size and weight to be considered pretty. That is the real problem with the idea of prettiness that people starve themselves or make themselves sick to fit this ideal.

And those tatoos are so ugly…Quit wearing those low pants that show your snakes and skulls and dragons….that is a turnoff to others….If you want attention wear mid rise pants with a belt so your crack won’t show…better yet wear a pretty pastel color dress with soft lipstick….that’ll get a gentlemans attention much easier…

OK, a few things:
1. I am a woman, and I don’t dress the way that I do because I’m looking to impress men…or other people in general, for that matter. I dress the way that I do because it makes me feel good, plus it’s a medium that I use to express myself. I like wearing formal-looking blouses, nice trousers, and sensible shoes. It’s my preference.
Now, if some women prefer wearing miniskirts or tank tops, then you have no business telling them that their preference is inferior to mine. In the same way that men can dress in any way that they want, women should be able to as well.
2. I am appalled by the comments here that associate feminism with “slutiness.” If you think that the two go hand in hand, then you obviously have no idea what feminism is about. One very important point that feminism makes is that women should be allowed to dress any way they want without being persecuted. We don’t dress a certain way to impress other people, and we certainly don’t dress a certain way to attract men’s attention (at least, the women that I know don’t do that).
3. Saying that “pretty” is better than “hot” are just different sides to the same problem: you expect women to dress a certain way because you want them to; because it’s what “looks good” to YOU. Well, that’s not up to you, is it? If you don’t like women that dress “hot”, then don’t date one. It’s as simple as that.
4. It’s funny how you attack society at one point, but for all the wrong reasons. The problem with society isn’t that it values “hot” over “pretty”; the problem is that it puts so much importance on the way that people look, and little to no importance on how they act. Just because a girl dresses modestly doesn’t mean she’s “innocent.” Similarly, just because a girl dresses rather revealingly doesn’t mean she’s looking for sex.

A double hear, hear for this article.

If I happen to unexpectedly die and meet my Maker, my King, my Savior, my Lord, and my God, I hope to appear as fully an expression of the woman He has made me, both in body and soul: truly feminine and truly sanctified. It has nothing to do with men liking this or woman liking that. It has to do with what Christ Himself would prefer. I would feel shamed to look “hot” in front of Our Lady or the choirs of Angels and Saints. I can’t think of one Saint that aspired for hotness, and well, Sainthood what we’re all called to achieve. We’re all responsible for our own souls and are called to help other souls along the way. Femininity is a wonderful start to helping our own souls and our male counterparts.

I think this piece I wrote some time ago kind of fits with this article:

***************************************************************************

Dear Man,

        No offense intended kind sir, but I do not desire to be you. On the contrary, I am proud to be quite different. This current movement of modeling your clothing and your mannerisms has been pushed upon me by society for far too long. ‘Tis a pity that your foul mouth has infested mine, and that it has become acceptable for me to utter such filth in the presence of others. We have strayed from our feminine ways of modesty, reserved nature, and politeness, exchanging these for provocative attire, brashness, and ill manners. Often such motives are to appeal to your unbridled masculine desires, and in doing so I am losing my identity as a unique and respectable sex. I have been fooled into believing your wants should be mine as well. I have rejected such beautiful and intricate attire for fear of appearing weak or unattractive beside you. My fight for equality has become a fight for the right to imitate and please. In my struggle for equal dignity, confusion has occurred, making it a struggle for your ambitions and manly qualities, or often to appease them, and even you have forgotten who I am.

      I have received what the so-called “feminists” of my sex have asked for: I open my own door, walk in behind you, pull up my own chair, and pay for my own meal. In our blindness for more power rather than equality, my innate qualities have been underappreciated. Delicacy does not imply a lack of strength, and displaying my emotions does not mean I lack the ability to be logical.  In envying your qualities, I have forgotten to value my own such as my nurturing nature, sensitivity, and compassion. In lowering my standards, I have equally lowered yours. For this I apologize and promise to work to regain the respect and dignity those in the past have worked so hard for. I only ask that you help me in this fight by supporting my right to be equal in dignity and rights with a role distinct from your own. I now realize that just because I now have the right to act like you, does not mean I should. I desire, not to be treated like your fellowmen, but rather as your compliment and counterpart, whose qualities although quite different, are just as valued.

                Sincerely,

                        Woman

I’m thankful I live in a time when woman may project herself as anything she well pleases.  Teaching our daughters about true beauty is on us.  Thank God for freedom.

Great article and did you know that Marie Osmond turned down the role Newton-John played stating:
I didn’t like the fact that the girl had to turn bad to get the guy. I think the guy has to work hard to get the girl, that’s what I believe,... I don’t think we’re the ones that need to change,” Osmond continued.  I think women’s hearts – that divine feminine within us – God gave us that to know what’s right and wrong, to perceive the needs of a child, we know and so I learned to respect that or not dismiss it.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2009/11/24/marie-osmond-doesnt-regreat-turning-grease-rooting-donny-dwts/#ixzz1huLPyC5j

Great point regarding the “cues” and biological aspect of the discussion Momofthree which is also addressed very well here in this clip where the speaker addresses the question: Should Christian women wear bikinis before an audience of young high school women: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzIcz7MOkc&feature=share

katy   that is one of the best things I have ever seen.  Exactly.

@Lector >>She should be allowed to wear what she desires without judgment of anyone saying “She was asking for it” since those days are long gone<< If only that were the case. Even today, women are told that one step they can take towards their personal safety is not to “dress like sluts”, which inspired the recent Slut Walks (to address the issue of victim blame) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

@Andrea - do you really think that you go to heaven wearing your earthly clothes? If there is a God, I think he or she values the lives we lead, that we are treating others with respect and kindness, and that we do our best not to harm others. Do you really think he or she cares I own a leather mini-skirt while men of the cloth molest little boys and children in developing countries are starving to death?

Thanks to everyone who is posting sensibly about this. I think highly of any woman who dresses in a way that makes her feel comfortable and happy (whether it be in a leather mini or a beautiful long skirt). Anyone who demands that a woman dresses otherwise to please men should keep their opinions to themselves.

Wow. I’m really surprised at some of the reactions.
first of all… this a blog.. not a news article… and as such, one would expect that the writing of blog content is going to be a majority of the author’s opinion and there is little requirement or expectation of supporting evidence or research.  Likewise, the expectation of presenting opposing theory.  That is the job of journalism… not a blog.  so if you don’t want opinion… don’t read blogs.
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Second, Pat didn’t say women should wear this or wear that… he was expressing his opinion, his observation… that pretty inspires protection, chivalry and respect… and that hot pretty much inspires a lack of respect.
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so wear what you want.  I don’t think he really cares what every woman in America wears.  He’s just trying to give us an idea of how many men are going to respond.  Your choice.
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And, as such, he’s not obligated in a BLOG to turn the tables and discuss how men should behave. That is another topic which he may or may not choose to address in another blog post.
If you want journalism, read an article. you’re the one who clicked on a blog.

Pretty is as pretty does.

Archbishop Sheen talked about the paper cup syndrome. Drink from the cup and throw it out. Modern relationships seems to resemble his theory. Women deserve the men they have helped create. Lord, give us holy men.

After reading the entire thread I have come to these conclusions:

1 - Great post. Loved the article on the “Death of Pretty”.

2 - Please start restricting comments. If anybody here starts with feminist dogma (e.g. ginger, Bailey, athenian-oracle, Adriana, Rachel, Liz on Friday) and starts spewing secular liberalism just get rid of them. If you let them comment, they will insult and oppose you. If you don’t let them comment, they will insult and oppose you nonetheless.

Dammned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Better take the high way and just ban altogether because the end result would be the same. Forget them and don’t give in to them. Years of dealing with these people has taught me this sobering fact about life.

Excellent points, Caroline and Renae.  There are always two competing ideologies,—the secular worldview and the Christian worldview.  Never the twain shall meet.  1 Corinthians 2:14 “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”  When one desires opinions from the secular worldview, AOL and the Huffington Post provide sufficient entertainment.  It’s a war between the Spirit and the flesh.  This is why Tim Tebow is in the crosshairs of so many.

elm:  So it is the woman’s fault again.  Next thing you will say that women who do not dress proiperly desrve to be raped.  Those poor innocent men tempted into raping because of inmodest dress.  Women did not make the men. Men made their own choices, and have to take responsibility for them.

Renae:  If he did not want to hear dissenting opinions he should not blog. Or do you blog to hear how wise and wonderful and insightful you are?  If so, do not bother to blog. Get a tape that says every hour “How wise wonderful and insightful you are. You are right, always right”.  Saves you the trouble with dealing with other people.

Lector:  Appealing to the Spirit to condone injustice is insulting the Spirit. I point out the underlying injustice and you prefer not to see it. You make Christianity hateful when you use it to condone injustice.

Adriana

All I’m saying is that my experience in the bridal alteration business has given me plenty of exposure to how females think of men and how they have no idea of what a loving self-giving relationship should look like. Many a time I had to watch lines of bridesmaids sit with backs to mirrors and expose their “tramp stamps” on their back sides as well as the beginning of their ends. I am female, and I have no desire to be exposed to their exposure.  What bait women put in front of men says an awful lot about the type of fish they wish to catch. Women have driven men to disrespect them and really “pretty” women, pure in spirit, are having a very difficult time finding spouses. Can a woman really think she can expose her “garden” in public and not have the planter of the seed think that it is a walk in the park to ignore her signals? If it is shown in public, it becomes public entertainment.

My husband has had to use hymnals as coverup in order to be able to sit through Mass behind some chicky that has her crack exposed for the whole world to see. I have told these same chickies that I do not appreciate their free advertisement in front of my husband. I have had parents thank me for informing their daughters of my angst.

No man, woman, is an island. Please be considerate of what you present in public. Lead us not into temptation. but deliver us from evil.

As far as the movie “Grease”  the only thing that bothered me, was the other guy that was interested in “Sandy”  He was cuter, smarter, nicer,  etc.  But she dumped him for a boy that was just not worth it. I’ve seen a lot of girls like that.

I completely felt the same way about Grease. Always hated that movie. Pretty isn’t dead. I am LDS and we really try to instill values of virtue and purity in our youth. We encourage Young men to date modest young women and to let girls know that risque clothing makes them uncomfortable. Because it does. Here are some excerpts from lds.org about modesty:
Why should other people care how I dress?
“Revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach, can stimulate desires and actions that violate the Lord’s law of chastity” (True to the Faith, 107).

Why should I care about the way I dress?
“Your clothing expresses who you are. It sends messages about you, and it influences the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you can invite the companionship of the Spirit and exercise a good influence on those around you” (True to the Faith, 107).
https://lds.org/youth/ask/top/dress-and-appearance?lang=eng#why-should-i-care-about-the-way-i-dress

@Caroline I’m so glad you’re so secure in your faith that you would have us censored. I also love that as soon as you have women in a religious forum championing for a woman’s right to choose, the F word (feminism) comes out. It’s unfortunate that feminism has become such a dirty word among women, since many feminists just want women to have the right to choose (career OR stay at home, leather mini OR modest dress, etc.)

@elm what exactly were those girls “advertising” in front of your husband? Clearly you are not secure in your relationship if you are getting that worked up over what other women wear around him in public.

elm:  According to your logic, “exposing the garden” would a woman who showed up with a bare face in Saudi Arabia be inciting men to rape?  A woman who did not wear a headscarf in Iran? I will not defend the women you describe (mainly because I do not know them so I do not know if they do it out of desire of manly admiration, desire to be seen as stylish or just slovenly).  I can tell of my own experience, how as a teenager I had to endure rude comments and propositions as I went home from high school dressed in a grey shapeless jumper and a white long sleeved shirt.  I was modest, by your definiton all right, and still I enflamed male lusts to the point that they denied me the basic dignity due to a human being.  So I do not care much for those “victims” you describe.

Caroline—my aim is not to insult and oppose, but merely to express my opinion, much like everyone else who has commented. The purpose of a blog is to put forth an opinion and get a response. A dissenting opinion does not make me the “secular, liberal, feminist” monster you make me out to be; I’m a Catholic young woman who simply does not agree with placing outdated and sexist limitations on the lives of women. You use feminism as a dirty word; that makes me incredibly sad, since as women, we owe so much progress to the feminist movement. Perhaps I am a bit more liberal than many others who are reading and commenting, and perhaps I disagree with what the Church’s stated position may be, but that does not make me a rabble-rouser or unfit to voice my opinion. God is the ultimate judge, not you or me. He gave us the gift of our minds to think, question, and debate. We are all imperfect in some way, and that is what makes us so beautifully human. I don’t think that carrying on with a holier-than-thou attitude is beneficial to anyone, as I find it disingenuous given our imperfect human, sinful nature.

To athenian_oracle:

You posted: “I don’t understand how “gender” dictates that women should wear skirts and men should wear pants. Look at the kilt in Scotland….”

The Bible simply says that it is an abomination for either gender to wear that which pertains to the other gender. This looks different in each society, and for each generation.

While a decent skirt *is* less revealing than pants simply because the whole body isn’t outlined, an indecent skirt is worse, especially if worn by someone who doesn’t sit or walk in a feminine manner.  A skirt is considered in US society to be the only garment that is solely for females.

In another society, “that which pertains to your own gender” would look different. In OT days, everyone wore robes, but they did differentiate between men’s robes and women’s. Which is why many Christian women feel comfortable in what they consider to be women’s pants. How *you* or *I* work it out is simply a personal issue between each of us and the Lord. 

“I can wear skirts “above the knee” and not “save myself for marriage” and still end up being a wonderful wife, mother, and member of society.”

I’m supposing you meant “below the knee” - and - many people could say, “I can spit in the wind and not get it on my face” but that doesn’t make spitting in the wind the best option. The end really never justifies the means, does it? It is only by God’s Grace that we can ‘get away’ with acting immorally or immodestly, but His Grace does not justify our continuance or participation in sin, does it?

“Really, it’s not God who cares if women wear skirts or pants, it’s men who would like to use religion to control women (as they have for centuries)....”

Well - no - if you read the Bible, in several places, both by direct command, example, and instructions given, it really is *God* who cares what we wear, just as He cares about all other decisions we make. Because the *decision* itself shows our heart, He looks on the inward heart and sees instantly whether our heart is to follow Him or not. We, however, can only see the outward appearance - so when I look down at my choice in clothing, I can see what my heart is displaying to the world, and to myself. This is important, because *we* can always “justify” our choices. Because “the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, and who can know it?” as the Prophet Jeremiah says.

So God allows us to make the choice to do all that we do for His glory, or to live selfishly and pretend He doesn’t care when His Word plainly tells us otherwise. The choice is up to us. But so are the consequences.

You know that concept of not saving ourselves until marriage? There are consequences to that, as well. Everything from wrong attitudes that crop up when the marriages hits trouble spots, to potential STD’s even *fifteen* years after marriage! It also prevents a marriage from starting out as a wonder and joy to experience together, and changes how a couple interacts and looks at things in life.

Someone said that speaking of personal sacrifices as being an emotional ploy - well - Christ Himself is our example, and His Word is our guide, and this Christian life is *full* of sacrificing self and pleasing the Lord. He commands it, He is the example of it, and He empowers us for it.

Abstinence outside of marriage, modesty, responsibility, charity, giving, choosing to obey His Word - all these are part and parcel of the Christian life for *both* genders, in *all* generations, in *every* culture. It will ‘look’ different from one to the next, but if followed, the principles will be the very same.

I won’t stand before the Lord for your sins, nor will you stand before Him for mine - which is why we can’t follow society and the ‘herd mentality’ but we must search the Scriptures ourselves, and apply each thing as we learn in, in the best way we know how, trusting that His Grace is sufficient to show us His desires for our lives individually.

Holiness is not a specific look, or set of rules, it is the attitude of never saying “no” to God.

@Anita Weaver:

“Could it be that sexual predators have to abuse younger and younger victims to achieve the “innocence” factor of the definition of pretty?”

Ahhh…No.

Could it BE that sexual predators don’t HAVE to abuse anyone?!

Could it BE that your horrific blame of women (any woman) for sexual perversions of men is SICK!!?!

Could it BE that you should HAVE to *think* next time before putting your fingers on a keyboard?

Are you really that sick minded as to blame the victimization of children on women rather than on the perpetrator himself?

...pardon me while I go somewhere and throw up…

(rant over, thank you)

Does anyone believe that women who wear burqas, live in Amish communities or have a Mormon dress code is better off?  Maybe the question should have been: “Let us be examples of charity, and elegance.  If I personally model this,  it will hopefully be an example to emulate”.

One more thing:  rent the movie “Babette’s Feast”. It really says so much about the human condition.  We must not define ourselves by what we say “no” to.  It is all about what we say “yes” to.

A friend of mine brought to attention to the two replies directed at my comments on this article on twitter; “@Kate” and “@NotAVeryGoodArticle”. Firstly, I come here with no intention of arguing, as there is little hope of having a coherent and productive dialogue with those so firmly convinced. In addition, I can see that many women are holding their own here, and that’s a wonderful thing to see. I would just like to assure you that I have a perfectly sufficient understanding of human biology, and remind you that, whether you agree or not, there is more to sex, and certainly more to love than the goal of reproduction. I would like to think that those two commenters respected men enough to consider them as more than animals carrying out basic survival instincts. Lastly, thank you for assuming that I dress “provocatively” at all, let alone to impress anyone- I have always dressed purely for my own satisfaction- and making the presumption that I have any intention of ever entering in a marital union or producing a child. I assure you that I am sublimely happy with my choice, but if I were somehow to change my mind, I would rather be in a relationship like that of my mother and father; wonderful people who respect each other and as complete equals and simultaneously manage to be good catholics and proud feminists.

Anyhow. Enough of that. It’s quite late. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all, even those with whom I disagree.

Edit- Looking over the comments again, I’m pretty certain my friend assumed incorrectly that these comments were directed at my complaints on twitter, although she likely made the assumption due to the fact that I share, obviously, a name with one of the commenters. However, my statement still stands in the defense if the two original posters. Just as I would be insulted to have such statements directed towards me, it was pretty rude to speak to them that way.  Anyway, pleasant evening to all.

AMEN,AMEN, Andrea on Thursday, Dec 29. I could not have said it any better than you have.  God bless you and all your loved during this Blessed Season of Christmas and the coming New Year

In this article, you define women in two categories, “hot” or “pretty.”  If you knew anything about women or the human race in general, you’d realize that despite sexes, people are complex.

Anyone who is still confused over this issues, let me sum it up for you. Pat is obsessing over the biological imperative many men suffer from: the biological imperative to be the first one to “tap that.” For years women have been subjected to inspections of the hymen and rejection if it is not intact - all at the hands of men and their religion.

One can look to the writings of philosopher Michel Foucault to see how the Church has manipulated and controlled us throughout history, particularly where human sexuality is concerned (for example, the LDS website quoted by Becca). I’m sure if there is a God, he or she would be more interested in the quality of one’s character and the actions they took on this earth.

MJ thank you.

We are not alone in how we affect the world. There are no private sins.

What you wrote is precisely how we need to consider ourselves in the world, as a conduit for positive actions and leading no one astray in our female behaviors or words. Women know the power they possess. It’s not just about getting even for all those years of being misogynists. It’s about being the one who puts the screws to the male gender and watch them twist in the wind.

To Athenian_Oracle who wrote:

“I’m sure if there is a God, he or she would be more interested in the quality of one’s character and the actions they took on this earth.”

Yes, abuses of religious power, whether the atheist views of communism, or the abuses and terrorism of radical muslims or those who abuse the name of Christ rather than following Him, have all been around for centuries.

They are both a shame and a sham.

True religion, according to the book of James (this is new testament, from the bible): “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”

Jesus said it this way - If you love me, you will obey my commandments - He told us to love our neighbor (our fellow man) as ourselves and to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body.

So, there is a God, but people have twisted the meaning of “religion” and used it as a replacement for a personal relationship with Him.

I find it sad that so few men have acknowledged that this issue of modesty not only includes them, but should begin with each individual cleaning up his own act before God, rather than placing the ills of their own temptation on others.

Having a personal relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ will bring peace, not blame, and self-improvement rather than the stoning of others.

“That combination of beauty and innocence is what I define as pretty.
By nature, generally when men see this combination in women it brings out their better qualities, their best in fact.  That special combination of beauty and innocence, the pretty inspires men to protect and defend it.”
——
This article seems to be suggesting that the idea women no longer desire a look of “innocence” that “inspires men to protect and defend it” is a result of some type of moral degeneration with in our society.  I view this transformation very differently.

Women in my generation were not taught to project a look of “innocence” or appear as though we needed to be protected.  We were empowered.  We were taught to speak up, to defend ourselves, to establish ourselves as active members of society.  If women today have lost that look of “innocence” it was a purposeful transformation.

Chloe:  It is even worse. I do not know how much you remember of the old days, it was not just innocence.  It was ditzinesss, stupidiy, always losing at games, never showing your brains, never letting it be known that you desired knowledge for its own sake. It was being a charmning ignoratn idiot that made men want to protect you.  You let them know you were brainy, and they made a hasty exit for such an “unfeminine” woman.

@athenian_oracle:  You and others who seemingly suffer from “man hate” need to jettison your hostility toward men in general.  It’s not very attractive.  There is a (your) world view of feminism as it applies to the culture we live in.  The biblical view of feminism is one that Paul equates to a woman having a problem with God ordained male authority.  In marriage, when there is a disagreement there can only be one who *ultimately* leads.  No wonder even Catholic feminists have a problem with St. Paul.  Paul tells us that women should be submissive to their husband.  At the same time, “the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves His church.”  What godly woman would fail to submit graciously to her husband *if* she was loved by her husband “as Christ loves the church?”  Does it get any better than that?  On the other hand, men do a dis-service to women when they fail to take spiritual leadership of the home and family.  When this happens, women become frustrated because their natural state is not to be the spiritual/rightful leader of the family.  Women who are pressed into assuming such leadership are justifiably angry in this unnatural and unspiritual role.  The Genesis curse tells us that a “woman’s longing will be for her husband” as a result of the fall.  Catholic priests are ill equipped to speak on marriagae since they have no experience.  You won’t find many homilies (if ever) covering this biblical truth, but feminism is linked biblically by Paul as he describes feminism to be “doctrine of demons” —aka witchcraft.  Feminists have a problem with authority —male authority which is a subconscious rebellion against the Lord.  Happily married women to godly, Christ-centered husbands have no need of feminism since this attribute is foreign to the spirit of godly, Christ-centered women.

The onslaught of “feminist” thinking was an excuse for women to abdicate their role in setting the moral tone in our society. Unfortunately too many have bought into that, for proof just look at how “easy” young teens are these days and what they’ll do for male companionship.

We’ll see a turn around from this when women in general stop trying to be “one of the boys” and be willing to hold men accountable for their actions.

Should anyone think I’m spouting absurd fantasy, I’d ask them to consider what sex it is that holds the reins regarding enforcement of sexual harassment policies in the workplace? Women are definetly NOT discounted out of hand when making complaints about inappropriate jokes, gestures, etc. They’re taken pretty darned seriously.

Now try being a man and filing a complaint of sexual harassment.

When women stand up and demand men to be accountable, it happens PDQ. End of story.

@ Adriana
you know, we’re all for people sharing their opinions - it’s that when they get ridiculously off topic… like your contribution:  “Next thing you will say that women who do not dress proiperly desrve to be raped.  Those poor innocent men tempted into raping because of inmodest dress.” 
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Of course not.  And no one here said anything remotely like that… not in the blog post and not in the comments!
Are we supposed to take it in any other way than you’re wanting to stir the pot?
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I will admit, that for much of my life I unknowingly wore provocative clothing.  I was thin and fit and could put it off - so to speak.  I also thought that because I have hardly any breasts at all, that something low-cut, on me, was not scandalous.  I was wrong.  I was leading men into lustful thoughts.  No, no one raped me. No one treated me disrespectfully (unless you count the boyfriend who loved to show off my derrière to his guy friends - but I was actually flattered - and wearing tight pants besides)
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It took me many years to recognize that I was causing my male friends difficulty.  yes, they could control themselves… but if I truly love my brothers… why would I put them in a position to struggle?
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It took a male co-worker, when I shared that the lapel of my jacket came unpinned and the president of the university probably saw my bra, then brushed it off that since I don’t have much boobs anyway, it couldn’t have bothered him….  to tell me that, no, it doesn’t matter the size… it had to be distracting - and I had better where a camisole with that suit from then on.
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It takes, knowing myself that if Matt Damon showed up in church in front of me in a tight t-shirt and tight jeans that I too, would have some impure thoughts!
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And I have to disagree… but SOME women have made many men the way they are….  and it’s precisely why I can’t find a suitable husband!!!  Even though I act respectfully, dress modestly (yet feminine and occasionally sexy)
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all we’re saying (Pat especially) is - we women CAN consider how we dress and how we act and how those choices impact the men around us.
I just don’t see how that’s a bad thing.
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On the other hand… if someone can tell me what good feminism has done - other than advances that allow women to leave abusive relationships because they can now support themselves - and own property.  Because while I’m thankful for that…  maybe I wouldn’t be upside down on a home loan if I had a husband to help support me - but there are no husbands available because all the feminists are having casual sex with men who might otherwise marry me!!

I find it disheartening that you put the blame of the ‘pretty to hot’ on women. REALLY?

The immoral thirst in man idealized that which they could hold(albeit temporarily) and abuse without guilt. Hot is that (it’s ‘asking’ for it). Pretty is not. Don’t get it confused.

MOST women want to be pretty over hot any day of the week. Even my own husband tells me how ‘hot’ I look when he’s telling me what he loves about me. Inwardly, I cringe. Beauty lasts, hotness does not.

SO, how about instead asking men to SEE pretty instead of hot, and to value THAT? Lead, Men!

To Subvet:
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Clearly your thinking is cultural, not Biblical. Please read some of my earlier posts. Blaming women, or expecting women to set the moral tone when *you* as a man are refusing to *lead* (male leadership is the Biblical standard, not female leadership), is simply casting blame rather than accepting *your* responsibilities as a man.
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There is *no* Biblical precedent for claiming that women are to set the moral tone. Quite the opposite, actually.
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To Lector:
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I’m not sure how you are defining some of the words you use, such as feminism, however, Christianity, when rightly followed, has led to an *emancipation* of women and all humans, from the differences in how Christ and Paul treated women in their day (as opposed to how their culture would have treated them), to more modern godly men taking up the cause of women’s rights to vote and to own property (which is actually in the OT, when God instructed Moses on giving women ownership of property which would have otherwise been taken from them, Had mankind been *following* the Word of God, women’s right would have never reached the pathetic low that they had in NT times), etc/
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I’m not sure why you think that the equalization of women’s rights in our culture neccessarily equates to ‘feminism’ (supposing, from your tone, that you are somehow equating women’s rights to having a bad attitude toward men in general)?
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Nor why you think Athenian_Oracle is a man-hater. Personally, I am not getting that tone from her posts at all. To rightly call a spade a spade about ungodly attitudes and ungodly actions toward women being promulgated by many men professing Christ is *not* the same as hating men. I would suggest you stop hiding behind this facade of blaming her with ‘man-hate’ and just stick to addressing the issues brought forth.
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It is in keeping with Biblical concepts that a woman would be paid equally *for* equal work, for instance. Yet today, women are paid 77 cents to the dollar of what men are paid, *for* equal work. Being proactive in setting this inequality right is what any godly Christian would work towards, and it is only in Christian countries that equality is making such strides throughout the centuries.
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This is similar to the struggle for freedom that slaves faced. Many Christians misused the Bible to abuse and keep slaves (speaking of the USA here). Other, more godly, men stood up for what is right, and saw that the ‘legislation’ of slavery in the Bible was a *protection* for slaves in societies, not encouragment in keeping the institution of slavery.
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Also, your entire foundation for commenting to Athenian_Oracle is, well, without foundation,imo. One cannot expect nonChristians to follow Christian doctrine. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit. The foundational issue for the unsaved is to be saved. Before that point, the only common ground is cultural, intellectual, temporal. The issue is not that the unsaved are not ‘playing by the rules’ but that their souls are in need of a Savior. Until that occurs, no other point can be said to have a foundational agreement.

Lector:  I am sorry that it is no longer acceptable for you to order women around with them feeling privileged for having you dictate how to live their lives. You want to be a little tinpot dictator in your home,with your wife smiling and saying “yes dear” no matter what, and you giving her a treat every bnow and then for being so obedient.  If you want that, get yourself a dog.  So, you, a man, knows what is best for me, a woman, because you are a man, and therefore wise, and I am a woman, and therefore foolish?  Because you are the leader.  What have you done to deserve such a positin? You were born male. That is, you consented to be born, and therefore have a right to give orders and have them obeyed. You and men like you are the reason why I dislike certain aspects of Christgianity.  I do not accept leadership from somoene who has not earned it.  Being born does not entitle you to anything.

@Adriana, THANK YOU. My sentiments exactly. One chromosome does not dictate authority. Thank God there are plenty of men out there who don’t need to order a woman around like a second class citizen in order to feel like a man.

@Lector - it’s not “man hate” - the obsession with the hymen, “proof of blood”, and women being (historically) treated as second class citizens is fact, not fiction. I do not hate men, but I do bring up these points because I believe they are akin to the kinds of control and subversion you and Pat and reminiscing about. That’s wonderful that you think a happy marriage is one in which a wife submits and the husband “loves her.” My husband and I both love each other very much and are a partnership. We are both well educated and both work to pay the bills. When there is a disagreement, he doesn’t go “Well, I’m wearing the God pants now, so I get two votes and you get none.” Instead, we talk about it rationally as adults. In the end, maybe that’s how things run in your household too, but that is not the picture you paint by saying things like “God ordained male authority” when we all know that all of your scriptures were written by MEN, not God.

@Subvet -  I would appreciate it if you stop equating feminism with sluttiness. Otherwise I will be forced to associate Catholicism with child abuse.

This article is fantastic and gets to the heart of the matter.  I grew up in the 1950s when “pretty” behavior was instilled in girls and young women.  It was certainly a happier time.

Amen! I make an effort (and ask my kids) to never refer to good-looking people with words we would use to describe food. “Handsome” and “pretty” are good. “Hot” “tasty” and “yummy” are better reserved for a delicious dinner, not a person.

@athenian_oracle— You wrote:  “When there is a disagreement, he doesn’t go “Well, I’m wearing the God pants now, so I get two votes and you get none.”  Naturally (and I underscore “naturally”) you would see it that way.  Your thinking is clearly in the flesh.  This is not, however, how a Christian man thinks or respects his wife.  True Christian husbands are far from dictators.  They do not “control” their wives.  This is not how a Christian based marriage works.  But then, you wouldn’t know anything about that.  Ultimately, in your disagreement (even in the secular marriage you have), only one person can ultimately lead.

@Lector - in my secular marriage we don’t need a leader.

@athenian_oracle who writes:  “we all know that all of your scriptures were written by MEN, not God.”  Sure.  That’s hilarious.  As an unbeliever, your comment is typical of someone who rejects Jesus as the Christ.  The gospel reflects Jesus quoting Scripture early and often.  And why wouldn’t He?  The Scriptures belong to Him as His own words.  He is the incarnate “Word.”  It is He who is the author of all Scripture revealed to the Prophets.  Men did not write the Scriptures on their own and you will not find Jesus correcting error in any of that which was “handwritten” by men.  That’s why the Bible is the inerrant, Holy Spirit-inspired Word of God.  St. Paul is correct in 1 Corinthians re your reaction (which is, of course, “natural”)  “The Word of God is foolishness to a perishing man.”  In this case, a perishing woman.

@athenian_oracle who writes:  “we don’t need a leader.”  Of course you don’t —since Jesus Christ is not Lord over your marriage (and your life).  You have chosen live in rebellion against Him.

Thank you for this wonderful article about “pretty” vs. “hot”.  I completely agree and pray that we might see our young girls embrace “pretty” once again.  It is heart-breaking to see these little innocent girls (especially middle school and younger) dressed like “show” girls…where are the parents???  They are buying this clothing for their precious little girls and exposing their bodies at such young ages.  May all women wake up and realize what is happening!!!

@Lector it is clear that we are at an impasse since you still believe in the Easter Bunny and I choose to believe in science and logic. I am very happy for you that your faith gives you direction in life, but stop trying to position me and my marriage relative to God. We don’t actively live in “rebellion against Him” because God simply does not exist. Instead, my husband and I choose to live fruitful lives in which we contribute to society and teach our children to be good, honest people. We volunteer, make charitable donations, work, pay our taxes, and create a warm and loving home for our family.

@athenian_oracle:  I would never say you and your husband are not decent, patriotic people performing good works for others.  If God has no role in your life, why are you even bothering to visit this Catholic website?

Lector:  If Jesus Christ is your leader, then you are not. You are both subject to him, and your making yourself the leader of your wife makes you an usurper. You are taking the respect and obedience that is due to Him alone. Ever think that?

But of course, Men write Scripture, and Men interpret it. So they grab it and shove it under their wives’ noses and say. “You must obey me, and if you do not, you are in rebellion and will burn in Hell”.  The truth is that men are physically stronger than women, and use that strenth to force obedience out of them… Plenty of battered women were told that it was their fault for not being submissive.  I hope that you are not one of those, but one never knows…  So, all that talk about the role of feniniety and masculinity rests on the assumption that a woman who does not behave as men wish her to will be beaten again and again until she sees the light.  Then after they beat them into submission, they write Scripture to make themselves feel better after doing violence to someoen they say they love.  “I loved her, but she would not obey, so I had to chastize her”  That’s the ugly truth.

Lector:  There is a problem with the formula: The wife must obey and the husband to love her. It has to do with implementation. It is easy to see when there is disobedience - failure to carry out a command. But lack of loving, how is it quantified?  Also, while thousands of women are punished for disobedience, how many men are punished for failure to love their wives?  The women get told to pray that they hearts are opened. If the prayers do not work, tough cookies. They still must obey their unloving men and endure in the hope that one day things will change.  You see why that formula does not satisfy?  I say and say it again, any law that is not enforced, that people do not care to enforce, or that is unenforceable is just pretty words on paper.

Try looking into the site What Women Never Hear.
Yes! Its all about what this article so keenly reports!

@Lector I am visiting this site because a link to this article was shared with me on another site which I frequent. Because I found the subject matter abhorrent, I decided to comment. Since people have engaged in a dialogue of sorts with me.

I became especially engaged when one poster snidely commented that my first amendment rights don’t apply here due to the fact that I’m spewing “secular liberalism” (lovely words, by the way, Caroline - good example of “turning the other cheek”).

This is a blog, people with differing opinions will comment on it. People who feel threatened by differing opinions should re-examine their faith. I have faith in a modern world in which women are treated as equals.

Pat’s problem is that he has painted women out to be binary; you are either pretty (innocent, modest) or you are hot (a slut). Men who only see women in this way are dangerous. Why is there no in-between? Why can’t a woman wear form-fitting modern attire but still be deemed pretty? To me, the implication here is merely a stone’s throw away from a burka. Why is a woman’s morality and personal worth are tied to her sexual purity?

Teaching your daughters to be “hot” OR teaching your daughter to be “pretty” both have the same harmful outcome. Both teach women that their most valuable commodity is their sexuality (Valenti, 2009).

Alongside the article is an ad for caskets and urns made by Trappist Monks.  Urns are used for cremated ashes, a practice which is explicitly forbidden in the Christian Bible.  Why would you, a supposedly Christian, and supposedly Catholic publication, consider cremation to be anything less than satanic?????????  Please come to your senses and pull the ad. Better yet, come out strongly against cremation.  Don’t tell me “the Church allows it”, as you know this is satan speaking thru you.

Thank you, thank you, so much for this article.
I remember, as a teenager, feeling like a fish out of the water - I never wanted to wear the indecent fashions my girlfriends were sporting.
I never wanted to use my body to attract attention from the boys.
But for trying to stay modest and chaste, I was branded a lesbian - which I am not, but see how easily influenced by pop culture teenagers are.
Because I was different, they had to find an explanation for it.
Mind you, I grew up in a culture where women were expected to flaunt their bodies. But being a Christian has never been easy, as Jesus showed us.
Thank you again.

Wow…this created a lot of conversation!  The one comment I am in agreement with is Amy H.  Whoever you are you are great at showing that both partys(male and female) have a part in “bringing pretty back!!”

This article is SO true!  I am a woman and am so sick and tired of looking at women’s breasts in low-cut tops and almost all of their behinds when they bend over with low-cut jeans and skimpy tops.  Don’t they know how ridiculous and trampy they look?  And in the malls I’m tired of Victoria Secret posters (almost porn) and seeing mothers taking their daughters into those stores to shop.  I see it all the time!  Is an unwanted pregnancy, or an abortion, or single motherhood, goals they are looking for because most of them end up achieving them!  SO SAD!

Athenian Oracle,
you are welcome to your opinion, and to post it;
however remember that you are on a Catholic website.
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When you visit someone’s house, do you feel you are at liberty to insult their parents?
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Let me quote what you have said:
“the Church has manipulated and controlled us throughout history”

“I don’t frequent churches because I find the prehistoric misogynistic overtones of most people like (pat)riarch to be suffocating both men and women.”

“We don’t actively live in “rebellion against Him” because God simply does not exist”

Regardless of why you have posted these, it is the equivalent of going to someone’s house and offending what they believe.

I choose to believe in God and His Church. I do not go to atheists’ websites to contradict their beliefs.

As to your comment:
“I think highly of any woman who dresses in a way that makes her feel comfortable and happy (whether it be in a leather mini or a beautiful long skirt). Anyone who demands that a woman dresses otherwise to please men should keep their opinions to themselves.”
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Well, you yourself have censored others. Interestingly enough, you have been allowed to speak freely.
Do not take it personally since I do know you, but I care more about what God’s opinion of what I wear is, than whether you think highly of me.

This article ignores the full life of a woman. It mostly focuses on what men would like to see in women when they are young.

But no woman is “pretty” after 30. “Innocence” has a short shelf-life.

In traditional societies, “innocent” women over 30 were considered “old maids.” I remember that from my own childhood. Women were very disposable back then.

This article ignores the fact that women, like men, get older. If they are valued for “innocence” and “pretty” – what happens when they get wrinkles, hit menopause, or abandoned by their spouses, when they are forced to find work to support a family?

The perception of “innocence” wears off with sexual experience – and marriage entails precisely that. In many men’s minds, “virgins” become “!@#$%” at that point. What then? Despoiling “innocent” women is a popular fantasy among men – so it’s kind of a lose-lose for us, isn’t it?

We are not living in an archaic society where women take the chador after marriage, spend their days cooking and cleaning, and live through their children. We are living into our 80s and 90s nowadays.

“Feminists” are taking a hit here – but the statistics show that family breakups and men abandoning their family was on the rise for decades before that. Our being in the workplace is not ruthless ambition, as one commenter said, but necessity. Would being a professor or scientist be despised if it were a male aspiration?

Hey guys, we’re people, just like you.

@Mary - thanks for supporting a misogynistic cause by propagating the virgin/!@#$% dichotomy. These days, it seems a woman’s worst enemy is other women! I shop in Victoria’s Secret all the time - I guess in your eyes that makes me a seeker of all of those abhorrent things you just posted. I guess it isn’t possible that I volunteer with an international relief organization, am happily married, and am an educator? No, you would have me reduced to some kind of “villain of foetuses” based on where I buy my bras.

Well done!

@Mary - also, since you have written here that shopping at Victoria’s Secret is directly linked to “unwanted pregnancy, or an abortion, or single motherhood” I would like you to name your source. I know that religious people are used to making claims without proof, but when we’re talking about causation and correlation, we tend to prefer facts over fiction.

Site your source or keep your fantasies to yourself!

Athenian, I wasn’t talking to you.  Mind your own business.

@Mary - you were talking to me when you make a blanket statement about a group of people that includes me (people who shop at Victoria’s Secret). Your tone reminds me quite a bit of @elm who is so insecure in her relationship with her husband that she is concerned about what other women wear in his presence.

Mary, by telling me to mind my own business, you also advertise that you don’t quite understand what it means to comment on a blog. Then again, I’m quite accustomed to preachy, judgemental, religious types being being uncomfortable when others call them out on their nonsense.

Besides, what ever happened to “judge not lest ye be judged” - I guess God wanted you to make an exception when it came to making blanket statements about girls who like to wear nice bras…

Athenian Oracle,
you are starting to show your true colours.
This is the second time you tell someone to keep their opinions to themselves, yet you feel entitled to post your views as you please.
You ask for respect, yet you come to a Catholic website and downgrade our religious views. And portray yourself as such a good Samaritan.
Thankfully, we are all reading you better now.
In the end, we are all sinners needing repentance.
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To the author, thank you so much for the article.
A refreshing voice in a world where the pressure from pop culture is deceiving a lot of women.

@Tina - I’m sorry that I asked for proof to back up slanderous blanket statements.

“40 years of women’s liberation only succeeded in making women into a commodity.” Excuse me?  If life had been fair for women before women’s lib, then women’s lib wouldn’t have happened. Unfair and lower wages for women, non-existent laws for rapists and the shame that went along with being sexually abused, no accountability for husbands who beat their wives or abused them etc. etc. Need I go on? I would never let my two daughters wear some of the clothes that are out there, and I certainly am teaching them that character is more beautiful than their physical self (which I feel should be accepted and worn with a certain innocence). But they are also preparing for careers alongside with their hopes of marrying and having a family.

I feel that your article is just one more way of blaming women for the flaws that exist in men. Yes, true, innocence and prettiness is a way of bringing out the best in men. But if that does not exist,  then men need to step up to work for justice and peace in all spheres—familial, political, marketplace—and stop saying “Well if you wouldn’t wear such hot clothes, I wouldn’t be such a lustful beast!” Can’t you see how weak this makes men appear. Jesus was a real man—he did not blame others but rather sought to teach the truth and—more importantly—live it, despite what was going on around him.

Oracle,
whereas I cannot answer for Mary,
she probably read an article similar to this:
http://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/En/News/NewsAndFeatures/Pages/Sexy-babies-how-sexualization-hurts-girls.aspx
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I am all for a respectful debate.
What I do not appreciate is when someone portrays themselves as one thing and does another.
If you believe in free speech, then comments such as “keep your opinions/fantasies to yourself” should not come from you.

This article ignores the full life of a woman. It mostly focuses on what men would like to see in women when they are young.

But no woman is “pretty” after 30. “Innocence” has a short shelf-life.

In traditional societies, “innocent” women over 30 were considered “old maids.” I remember that from my own childhood. Women were very disposable back then.

This article ignores the fact that women, like men, get older. If they are valued for “innocence” and “pretty” – what happens when they get wrinkles, hit menopause, or abandoned by their spouses, when they are forced to find work to support a family?

The perception of “innocence” wears off with sexual experience – and marriage entails precisely that. In many men’s minds, “virgins” become “!@#$%” at that point. What then? Despoiling “innocent” women is a popular fantasy among men – so it’s kind of a lose-lose for us, isn’t it?

We are not living in an archaic society where women take the chador after marriage, spend their days cooking and cleaning, and live through their children. We are living into our 80s and 90s nowadays.

“Feminists” are taking a hit here – but the statistics show that family breakups and men abandoning their families was on the rise for decades before that. Our being in the workplace is not ruthless ambition, as one commenter said, but necessity. Would being a professor or scientist be despised if it were a male aspiration?

Hey guys, we’re people, just like you.

This article ignores the full life of a woman. It mostly focuses on what men would like to see in women when they are young.

But no woman is “pretty” after 30. “Innocence” has a short shelf-life.

In traditional societies, “innocent” women over 30 were considered “old maids.” I remember that from my own childhood. Women were very disposable back then.

This article ignores the fact that women, like men, get older. If they are valued for “innocence” and “pretty” – what happens when they get wrinkles, hit menopause, or abandoned by their spouses, when they are forced to find work to support a family?

The perception of “innocence” wears off with sexual experience – and marriage entails precisely that. In many men’s minds, “virgins” become “wh**es” at that point. What then? Despoiling “innocent” women is a popular fantasy among men – so it’s kind of a lose-lose for us, isn’t it?

We are not living in an archaic society where women take the chador after marriage, spend their days cooking and cleaning, and live through their children. We are living into our 80s and 90s nowadays.

“Feminists” are taking a hit here – but the statistics show that family breakups and men abandoning their families was on the rise for decades before that. Our being in the workplace is not ruthless ambition, as one commenter said, but necessity. Would being a professor or scientist be despised if it were a male aspiration?

Hey guys, we’re people, just like you.

@Tina If Mary did actual research (as in scholarly, scientific sources) and is basing her claims on that, she can be sure to link her sources in future. What she did was attempt to make a statement about a causal relationship about which she had absolutely no evidence. When things are not based in fact, they can be said to be based in fantasy.

@Adriana and athenian_oracle:  You are clearly not reading.  (True) Christian men do not control women, dictate, or demand obedience.  Most certainly they do not abuse or punish women physically nor emotionally.  I have previously stated women should wear whatever they desire (including the aforementioned “form fitting” attire).  If you like it, please wear it.  No doubt if you like it your husband will also.  Christian men do not, —ever, view any woman as a “slut.”  That is a most sickening term that no Christian man would use yet you seem obsessed and quite comfortable calling some of your sisters “sluts.”  Women are not either pretty (innocent/modest) nor “sluts” (as you describe).  You seem enjoy categorizing women into one of two camps.  You both have a worldview of Christianity.  You do not have a biblical worldview of Christianity.  You also do not have any understanding of what a “Christian” marriage is.

My problem here is that I find a lack of charity on both sides of the debate.  Why not celebrate the female form?  Why feel so threatened by it?  Extremes on either side ultraslutty/ultraconservative are unbalanced.
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I’m sure there are plenty of people who would condemn what I choose to wear as “immodest”, but I work hard to keep myself up after having a lot of kids, because it is important to both me and my husband.  Is it THE *most important* aspect of our relationship?  Of course not!  But it is a form of charity nonetheless.  When he whispers in my ear how “hot” I look, (I get what he means)I KNOW he respects me.  He thanks me too, with heartfelt emotion!  We have had long talks on the subject, we pray together, and I know how much he values purity of heart.  The battleground for purity is in the individual heart and soul.  He *owns* his eyes and his thoughts, as I do mine—and then we freely give this to God, in thanksgiving.  Would an Islamic state with strict dress codes keep men and women from lusting?  Obviously not.  What we need to do is RESPECT each other from the heart with HONESTY.
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I enjoy buying gorgeous undergarments for myself AND my teenage daughter. We have to “bargain hunt” because I can’t always afford Victoria’s Secret though.  I am *always* talking to her about *why* we believe the way we do as Catholics.  She understands *why* she must never regard another human being as “consumable”, and why she should *never* subject herself in mind or body to this terrible *disorder*
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I consider myself a feminist.  If feminism causes a woman to *hurt* another human being, (abortion, lack of true motherly care for her child etc.)then this issue needs to be examined honestly and forthrightly. This is not true feminism. (Our hard earned rights should never make us so falsely empowered, as to trample on the rights of another.) If a man needs to *dominate* his wife, and is not of one heart and mind with her, this is a serious problem.  It is also a problem if either one of them reduces the other to how *useful* they are (money, services etc.)
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My Catholic faith *enlightens* me, and *empowers* me to make these *discerning*, and *elevated* choices.

I think that this article offers a helpful insight, but needed to focus more on teaching young men to value what is pretty. There are two necessary steps to this that the author does not address. First, the author’s claim that men prefer pretty does not bear out in ordinary practice, even among many of those males who are in home schooling circles or who practice Catholic Christianity. Women do need to change what they are doing, but could we please have some accountability about what men demonstrably prefer and value? Could we raise sons that will actually choose this, and focus on how this sort of preference comes to be?

Secondly, in most cases where men are educated to prefer “pretty”, they wind up learning a different type of objectification, where they see women who do not don their idea of modest dress as “damaged goods”. An authentic appreciation of feminine beauty is necessary - ultimately, it is not going to be achieved by an article like this that fails to think of all the factors that are pressuring women today.

I think that this article offers a helpful insight, but needed to focus more on teaching young men to value what is pretty. There are two necessary steps to this that the author does not address. First, the author’s claim that men prefer pretty does not bear out in ordinary practice, even among many of those males who are in home schooling circles or who practice Catholic Christianity. Women do need to change what they are doing, but could we please have some accountability in Catholic circles about what men demonstrably prefer and value? Could we raise sons that will actually choose this, and focus on how this sort of preference comes to be?

Secondly, in most current cases where men are educated to prefer “pretty”, they wind up learning a different type of objectification, where they view women who do not don their idea of modest dress as “damaged goods”. An authentic appreciation of feminine beauty is necessary - ultimately, it is not going to be achieved by an article like this.

Tina, when someone makes a clain, it is customary to ask what it is based on. Sometimes it is just a personal opinion, or a gut feeling. Sometines it is based on more than that.  athenian_oracle probably went overboard, but she had the right to ask for corroborating evidence.

That something offends you is not proof of causation.

As for myself I do not shop a Victoria’s Secret (do not like the prices) and I find that for underwear Sears can’t be beat (all cotton panties is the best thing to wear next to your skin - and I wear no bra whatsoever saving myself money and aggravation. I just wear a bigger sized t-shirt   - you should see my t-shirt collection).

I find it sensible that children should dress like children, not aping a sexuality that they have not acquired then. As for exposed cracks, one should ask the girls if they are plumbers. And for the rest, one should remind them that showing too much flesh does not help their careers. There is such thing as “dress for success” and it is never too early to train girls to plan for their future employment.

And try practicing saying “slovenly” instead of “slutty”.  It is equally condemnatory, but it addresses the external apperance rather than making assumptions about their morality and their sexuality.

Tracy said, “We want to be leaders and CEOs and scientists and professors and everything else.”

What about wives and mothers?  There are a lot of women out there who are now scientist and professors and really want a marriage and a family.

And for men, could a job really be compared to fatherhood?

This article is great. Pat Archbold is so right about the difference between “pretty” and “hot.” Thanks for writing about this topic, it’s very timely! I’m showing it to my 13-year-old daughter.

LOVED THE ARTICLE

bt: What makes you think that one excludes the other?  The current President of Argentina is a mother, and has recently suffered the hearbreak of the miscarriage of her daughter-in-law.  The current President of Brazil is also a mother. It is only when women are forced to choose one or the other that unhappiness results.

Also I think that young girls would be less likely to look “hot” if they were told to dress like a future President. Make proper dressing empowering instead of oppressive.  “Do you see Jeanne Kirpatrick or Madeline Albright showing their breasts? Do you see Justice Ginsburn with low cut jeans? Sandra Day O’Connor would die rather than be seen wearing what you are wearing”  That kind of message is a very different one from “you look slutty”

Of course, those women do not look pathetic, in need of protection, so they could not be called “pretty” but then, you can’t have everything.

I work at perhaps one of the most luxurious women’s/men’s specialty store in the world and it is located on 5th Avenue in a big city.  I have been a makeup artist for 25 years. I have seen such a change in the past two decades and yes, pretty is not as “in” as it once was. The harsh, heavy, smokey eye with black eyeliner, or goth look, has been inspired by the vampire movies of hollywood and the fashion world. ( this is what the young girls want.) Couture clothing and fashion house creations by Dior, Chanel and others have been designed by men who think women must have the shape and physique of pre-adolescent boys.  All of these designs trickle down to the “look” the average person like you and I can afford. And the choices are not pretty.  Look at the models in the magazines.  There is nothing pure, romantic, feminine or beautiful about most of the clothing and makeup on these models. Lady Gaga and Madonna (not Our Lady) graces the January 2012 issues of the top fashion magazines, again, and with great disappointment in my opinion.  Fragrance ads are borderline porn.  This is not artistic as they would want us to believe. I am praying and waiting for the new look to have the title of “pretty”.

Thank you for this honest and truthful article. If only women could hear the thoughts of men, they would “run” to pretty and discard “hot”. They have been bamboozled into believing this is what men want. As you state, it is not. Men want to “step-up and be noble” and be the best man they can be”. Hot women drag men down to their lower nature. Women with substance and simplistic, natural beauty create a desire in a man to love, cherish and protect them. This in turn helps to foster love and respect….thus a true and lasting love that doesn’t fizzle when “hot” diminishes.

Great article. However I have a quibble.

Mr. Archibold writes,“I am not idealizing another age and I have no illusions about the virtues of our grandparents, concupiscence being what it is.”

This strikes me as a idealization, a negative one,  and a mistaken illusion of the 1950’s that I grew up in. Young women and men actually were remarkable more sexually virtuous, and strongly armed against their appetites of all types. I have the certain knowledge of experience and on-the-ground observation . Many men and women married at about 20 years old as virgins.

This was not new but a continuation of the fine virtues of preeceding generations. The big divide was about 1955. Never underestimate the power of culture, especially music.

The media’s creation of the “teenager”, the new institutionalized isolation of “ages” one from another, Kinsey’s statistical lies, Playboy’s Philosophy, and especially the non-verbal content of Rock and Roll molded the new subversive ethic. Add to this the pushing of Pill about 1960. This societal ethic is pathological. Was it deliberate and pushed. Yes it was.

We were carefully taught that we were less than we were. A steady drizzle of slander eroded our ideals about our human nature We fell out of love with ourselves, our tribes, our country, and our God. It is time to resist. It is time for war.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. This article is so short-sighted it’s ridiculous, and those who are agreeing with it are frustrated single women.

FACT: Just because someone likes one thing, doesn’t mean that’s all said person likes.

People DO recognize and appreciate ‘pretty’, otherwise Pam on the Office wouldn’t be popular. You use today’s celebs as the problem - THEY ARE ENTERTAINERS! Normal women only dress up for huge events, they tend to NOT dress hot when they go to work or when they go shopping or when they have to go shopping at a seedy Safeway.

So the problem here is you see ALL celebs looking hot (FOR PHOTO OPS), and then when you see a handful of women dressing like that, suddenly you generalize that ALL/MOST women are like that (it would have to be ALL if, as you say ‘pretty is dead’ - that would mean 0% of women try to be ‘pretty’)

So please, find another job, your powers of observation are pathetic and only bi-polarizes things.

Excellent article. You have managed to put yout finger on one of the many flaws of modern society. I am a man and let me say to the women who read this article, “there is a lot of truth in it”. If want a short term relationship with a man, strive to be hot. If you want a long term relationship with a man, strive to pretty (as defined by this article).

And further..

“As I said, pretty inspires men’s nobler instincts to protect and defend.”

Yeah, we’ve learned a lot of those heroic protectors. Back in the 50s when ‘pretty’ WAS the aim of women, all these great defenders were BEATING THEIR WIVES. And those ‘defenders’, ie Military and Police tend to also be VERY DOMINEERING of their relationships - did you not watch American Beauty?

So what we’re looking for, Mr Catholicism, is balance - NOT CONTROL. So stop using fear as a means of control.

I have always taught my daughter there are two ways to attract boys.  One gets you an invitation to the back seat of his car and the other an invitation to meet his parents.  I didn’t use the words “pretty” and “hot”.  I just used girls that my son, my daughter’s older brother, went to school with as an example.  I pointed out the different kinds of popularity and how one kind also got whispers behind ones back.

It is a very sad but true reality- one I wish more mothers taught their daughters.

“Protect and defend” indeed.  Like those police officers who came in to a domestic disturbance, that is a man beating up his wife.  As they were leaving, the wife overheard one of the officers telling the man “Next time beat her, in the stomach where it does not leave bruises”  She told of it later, how many more years of abuse those protectors and defenders gave her.

Of course, the rationale was that she was not obedient. No one called in the man saying that that was not the way Jesus loved his Church, and that if he was loving, she would be obedient. Always the woman’s fault.  Nothing to feel nostalgic about those days, unless you are a wife beater and long for the days when cops were not instructed to arrest you.

There has developed over time (with increasing mortal sin) an aversion for goodness and innocence in general. It has become distasteful and is mocked and scorned in so many ways. It is most apparent in our inability to love, the objectification of women, in a growing aversion to bearing children and their murder in the womb, and in the growing determination corrupt the children that manage to be born into the culture.
This is a grim and negative view but it is reality today, sad as it is.
These are the effects of rampant sin and only a purification with cure it.

It’s true, a lot a girls about my age (the teenage years) would rather be hot, but i wouldn’t we are young women and we should accept who we are

Thank you for the article.
I grew up in a culture where the women HAD to look attractive to the opposite sex. Period. Plus, there was a competition as to who wore the best outfit to parties.
When I refused to wear the same sort of fashion as the girls in school, I’d be labeled a lesbian. All because I did not feel the need to attract attention. I did not want to show more skin than I was comfortable with.
I wish someone had written this 20 years ago.
Thank you Mr. Archbold. God bless you. And keep up the good work in 2012.

@Adriana:  Why do you insist upon painting all men with the same brush?  All your comments have the same negative stereotype of men.

Lector:  I do not say that all men are batterers. But when they do, there is great reluctance to blame them, and instead to blame the victim.  Tell me, what advice based on Scriptural principles do you give a battered woman?  That she should be more obedient?  That she should pray that God turns her husband’s heart?  Or do you offer to protect, and rebuke the husband?  Do you say that the man OUGHT to love his wife AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH and pray that God turns his wife’s heart toward obedience?  As long as there are two standards and two ways of enforcing penalties I will protest.

Jennifer:  If find it troubling that you worry about your daughter’s virtue while not caring two figs about your son’s.  You see to think that it is the girl’s fault for being cheap and looking “hot”.  Need I remind you that the girls your son has sex with is someone else’s daughter. 

Is that the Golden Rule? Or even the Silver One: what is hateful to you do not do to another.

It is as if you took proper precautions about theft and then shrugged when your son broke into a neighbor’s house to steal, saying that those people got robbed for not having proper alarms.  It is an attitude basically hostile towards one’s neighbors.

So sad to see men claiming Christ yet blaming women for the lack of morality in society. So sad to see a refusal to ‘man-up’ (take responsibility) and *lead* society, both by example and in teaching the younger *men* as is their place Biblically.
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And it’s just sad to see this nattering of men haranguing women, rather than leading in coming to a godly sorrow for their lack of leadership? Or by displaying the fruit of the Spirit.
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The spirit of argumentation among many of you men is so similar to the world’s way of discussing issues as to be completely undifferentiated.
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How would any of this inspire the older women to teach the younger women (as this is *their* job according to the Bible), or inspire women as a whole to desire modesty?
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And how is this argumentative, name-calling spirit supposed to encourage the unsaved or *anyone* to desire what you supposedly have, when you seem to have the same attitudes and approach that the world has?
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Rather than answering me (or anyone) here on this blog, please lead in repentance by going to your prayer closet and answering these questions before the Lord.

If you aren’t teaching your sons to be modest, and if you are wearing shorts as high up as some women wear skirts, or you mow the lawn without a shirt on, or you refuse to make a covenant with your eyes to not ogle a women, or you aren’t telling your *son* to remain a virgin until marriage:
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...then please return to the Bible for *your own* instruction before instructing others in modesty.
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Many points of the article are well taken, but the lack of male leadership, and the lack of any godly sorrow expressed for blaming others (rather than repenting over what *you* have let society become) is sadly deplorable.

@Adriana:  You’re still not “getting it.”  Men,—any man who would batter women belong in jail.  It is sin.  End of story.  There is no justification for any physical assault on a woman.  Emotional assault against a woman is also sinful in God’s eyes.  Biblically-based men respect their wives, daughters and other women and defend their honor and virtue.  They also take responsibility for leadership in the home.  They do not control women, dictate nor demand obedience.  You may know of men who go to “church” and yet batter women physically or emotionally.  Because that man goes to “church” is thus merely outward window dressing.  Church attendance is not the acid test of anyone’s Christianity —Catholic or Protestant.  I am telling you that for men of whom Jesus is Lord and Savior—they do not think (or act) in the way many of your comments suggest.  Men who fail to “lead” in their families are abdicating biblical principles.  Women also bear a responsibility for choosing the character of the type of man you will date and/or eventually marry.

@Adriana

I think the concern is that the concept of career has replaced the God-given vocation of motherhood and fatherhood.

By turning your daughter’s virginity into a commodity, you basically diminish her to a singular trait: virgin or !@#$%. What an excellent lesson to teach young women; that their mortality and self-worth is all bundled up into one “virtue.”

@bt What’s wrong with wanting a career again?

The topic was widely and well covered a few weeks ag, here: http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2011/11/sadness-american-and-british-versions.html

If pretty comes back where does HOT go?

Bill Jones, I was not aware of that article,
but thank you for pointing it out.
I believe the main difference between Mr. Archbold’s and Whiskey’s article is that the latter does not involve the spirituality factor.
They do intersect, though, at the end, with the fact that women are definitely being lied to by “a media-infotainment complex”.
In a way, following God’s precepts - God’s truth - will guard both genders from ending up like those poor women pictured in the blog.

Lector:  I do get it.  You think that because you walk the way of virtue everyone else does too.  I might as well say that because I do not read the National Enquirer no one does.  And if someone points out to the wide readership it enjoys I get angry because that person accused me of liking that rag.

I point out that the system you proclaim does not provide for protection if the man in the deal is not as virtuous as you are.  i might as well say that because I am an honest person that does not take what does not belong to me, you should leave your doors unlocked.  It is not me that you have to worry about but the large population of thieves going around.

The system you propose, the wife to obey and the man to love her, has no plan B in case the man proves unworthy.  When someone points that out to you, all you can say “Not all men are like that”  No, but then the women are not being beaten by all men, but by particular men.  The problem is that as Edmund Burke said, for evil to triumph, all that good men need to do is do nothing.  Good men have not beaten their wives but have tolerated that others did, pretended it did not happen, make excuses, and blamed the victims.  Now and then some have protested, and offered help, but too many were like the Germans , did not murder any Jews, but pretended they did not know and allowed it to happen. 

Do not generalized from your own personal situation not knowing how typical your experience is.

Pat,
I’ve never read your column before, or even heard of you.  A friend posted this on Facebook so I thought I’d read it because the title looked interesting.  Thank you for writing this.  I will pass this on to whoever will read it and certainly visit your column again.
Thanks,
Josh

Nice article. Problem is, is that even if you have many fine, virtuous qualities and you’re pretty, it’s still difficult for a young lady to attract a potential mate because a lot of men really do seem to want the hottest, most physically attractive woman they can find with all the “virtuous” qualities they say they want. A pecking order definitely exists, even among Catholics.

I think once many men get passed over and get older, they start settling for okay-looking and virtuous women to bear their children and keep them happy. I remember what it was like being pretty, but getting passed over for a hotter, smarter, more skilled and charming model when I was in my 20’s. I was a nice girl with a reasonable amount of intelligence, faith, and self-esteem, but somehow for many years men would go out with me a few weeks, then drop me to date a prettier woman who had more to offer them in terms of intelligence, sophistication, beauty, charm, or whatever it was. They never chose someone who was LESS physically attractive or intelligent—it was always someone with a better figure and a more interesting career or a quicker sense of humor. Talk about feeling tempted to feel cast-off and ugly. I wasn’t bad at all if I can say so :), but somehow, it just wasn’t good enough. A lot of women suffer a similar fate. I hate to sound cynical, but I’ve experienced this personally and I’ve seen a lot of great people have the same problem. It’s hard not to feel like you should define yourself by your make and model rather than as a human being at times.

Despite what others may say, I do think women and men are often treated as commodities despite denials to the contrary. I think a few people have high ideals, but I think the reality is that the vast majority of men and women are persuaded to date one another because of the sexual, financial, and social benefits they receive from their partner rather than looking for the godly values in a spouse that they claim to espouse. I think it’s a nice ideal if “pretty” brings out the protective, respectful side of men, but I think men are still looking for someone pretty, but they are hoping for pretty AND hot (with a rich, well-connected daddy).

I worry about innocent girls because they are usually very vulnerable. There are a whole lot of predatory males out there and it is usually very difficult for innocent girls to know the difference. So what happens to an ‘good’ girl who trusts the wrong male more than once? Does she loose her goodness and becomes by default experienced and therefore no longer desirable. I know a lot of “good” women that had this happen to them. I think that talking in absolutes is very difficult when trying to broach this subject. Femininity and sexuality is so complicated now a days. I see what my 20 something daughters are going through and it ain’t easy.

I don’t agree with the idea that women and how they carry themselves (pretty or hot)  are responsible or should be held responsible for how men view them and then subsequently treat them. Men & Women are responsible for their respective thoughts and actions. Raise your children, boy or girl to be introspective, respectful, discerning and responsible for their whole person and it won’t matter what the rest of the world is doing, they will be defined and judged as well as judge by their own integrity and actions. This article should be shaming and addressing the “men” that have been taught no self control or responsibility and foolishly blame (hot) females for their lack of respect for humanity.  Empower humans to live by Christs teachings and example and they in-turn will be examples to all.

@ Adrienne, case in point: Two weeks ago my daughter’s best friend was almost raped.  The kid had been a *good* friend all through high school.  He had already dropped off four friends, and she was the last to be dropped off.  He literally held her down, to the point of covering her mouth with the other hand.  She had the presence of mind to say “I need you to use a condom” which he interpreted as her relenting.  He drove to a 711, and she was able to take off sprinting.  This kid NEVER gave *any* indication that he would EVER do such a thing.
Fathers and Mothers, this is the age when you can no longer afford to keep your pretty daughter in a “hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil” ivory tower.  BE HONEST!  Talk to her about everything YOU have learned in life!  Unless you plan on moving to the middle of nowhere, you are going to have to wake up from your musical.  We live in a pornified culture, and conservative Catholic colleges are not immune.

Does anyone else find it weird that a man old enough to have five kids wrote an article about how young women should act and dress? Creeps me out.
Also, things are much better for women now then they were when women wanted to be “pretty”.  Maybe it is because women don’t have to be pretty.  They can be doctors, lawyers, not just housewives.  They are valued more than just their looks.  I can’t believe how blatantly sexist people still are in the 21st century.

To St Louis Catholic - how naive you are. Women *could and would* be more valued than just for their looks, if they didn’t dress like hookers on a daily basis. That chick in the mall might have a PhD, but if she dresses like a slut, hate to tell you, that’s all that the men who see her will think about. And I don’t find it “creepy” that a guy with 5 kids would write this; he has a wife, daughters, friends, and he just said what all the rest of us who are horrified by our culture are already thinking.

Lector:  So you decry women like me who want careers, and tell me that I should choose different.

Are you my guidance counselor at school?  Are you a friend or a relative who knows me, and whose adivce I seek?

No, you are a man, and I am a woman. Therefore you, being wise and virtuous can tell me, a foolishs woman what to do.

I do not hate men.  But I do despise arrogant asses like you. 

Do you give unwanted advice to young men or just women?  After all, we are too foolish to know anything, even what we want, or feel - or think, because you know that we do not think at all. Too emotional\

Your veneer of Christianity does not hide your male arrogance, and your desire to order women around.

Lisa, it is tragic what happened to that girl.  At least she no longer lives in times like that past - when everything was better, accoding to some men here. She has a chance to be treated as a victim, not as “soiled goods” or the culprit.  She does not risk getting killed, as it is done in other places where then live by Biblical codes. She is not doomed to end in a brothel, as she no longer has a virginity to offer in marriage. She will not be sent to the slavery of the Magdalene laundries either.

Thanks to feminism, so much decried, people are understanding that the blame belongs to the sexual predator alone.  And anyone who says that what she wore contributed to the attack should be denounced as a rapist enabler.

When I think of pretty, I think of DORIS DAY - she was very good looking and projected that refreshing look - the “girl next door” image…sadly, we don’t have anyone today who portrays this image.  Even in her upper 80s, Doris still has “it.”

The article expressed a nice thought, but I think most men want hot and pretty before they want just pretty. There is a pecking order despite men’s vehement denials. After a few years of rejections, I think men look a little deeper for the qualities that will last for the long haul of a marriage.  A lot of the guys I’ve known who aren’t married in their thirties are still thinking they can get brains, charm, faithfulness and the like, but they are still itching for a gal who’s hot.  I’m saying this as a married 47 year old woman who was and still is pretty and reasonably intelligent, but got passed over many times by men who wanted more and I doubt it was a good sense of humor and being a faithful Catholic. We’re still commodities in the minds of most men despite their comments to the contrary.

Pretty is wonderful, but good is better.  I know a young women who has an honest heart, a beautiful soul, works hard, loves children and is a wonderful cook.  But she is not pretty and probably never will be.  She could lose weight.  I rather doubt that she will marry any time soon because most men would not even give her a second glance.  I believe that she would be a devoted wife and an absolutely terrific mother.  But good is not valued in this world.

I am a single, beautiful, 35 year old woman. I take care of myself and do not rely on a man to feed me or pay my bills.  I’m educated, my friends think I am funny, and I am successful at my career, doing what I want to do with my life.  I have had MANY girlfriends get divorced because their husbands have been cheating on them with younger, “hotter”, less wonderful women.  I have myself had relationships where i have given my care and love to those relationships, with men who were unable to commit in the end and ended up hanging out with younger, less challenging, “simpler” girls. 

We are CONSTANTLY made to feel, by the television and media, that we need to be “be more beautiful” to hold and keep a man’s attention.  We must listen, be patient, and all the while put aside our own needs and dreams in order to “be a good woman” for our man.  We need better skin, bigger breasts, a flatter tummy, a smaller butt. And we need to say the perfect thing, or our man has every right to walk away and be with someone else.

We go on dates dressed up and full of hope only to run into lackadaisical immature men who hardly have common courtesy, much less know how to be a partner.  Talk to some women between the ages of 20 and 30
living in a big city.  ASK THEM why girls need to “feel hot.”

It is 2012.  Please do not tell me that I am the one who needs to be doing something different.  I have made my life what it is, without the help of a man.  A man today gets his ideas from online porn and GQ and Maxim magazine.  What on earth is he going to do in REAL life with a smart, gorgeous, real girl who has a life, feels passionate, and doesn’t WANT to just sit there and look pretty and be silent?

I agree with you, innocence has long been lost.  But WE are not the sex to blame, we’ve been cleaning up men’s messes for generations. And myself, and every other single woman i know (and plenty of married women), are FED UP AND ANGRY.

So when it comes to clothing, life decisions, or behaviors, I will no longer base mine on a man’s opinion, or the effect it might have on his attraction level to me. I’ll do whatever I damn well choose.  Why? Because I buy my clothes, I pay my bills, and I answer to myself when I go to sleep at night, because I don’t need a man to validate my existence. I don’t even need a man these days to have children.  Scary, isn’t it? But it’s true.  Do I want one?  Of course.  I would love to have a fulfilling and wonderful partnership.  But not that the expense of turning myself into someone I’m not.

THIS is the new feminism.  And we DO exist. But most men are too blind to even be aware of us, nor are they able to break away from their porn, football and guy rituals long enough to give us a second thought.

I have a great topic for your next blog:  How to handle a modern woman.  It’s for men.  I know several that could use the advice.

PS- please don’t edit my post.  I mean every word I say.

now, innocent Taylor Swift? that’s a thought!

Anna,
Your post was well-written and thought-provoking.  However you made the claim:”“Feminists” are taking a hit here – but the statistics show that family breakups and men abandoning their family was on the rise for decades before that.”

Is this true?  Do you have any stats to back this up?

What should older women aspire to? I just turned 40, and have a wonderful husband and family, but I see most of the moms around me trying to look and act 25.  Are the only two choices being dowdy moms whose husbands cheat with younger models, or should we try hard to stay “hot” and flaunt it to keep them interested?  Are there lots of faithful men out there who stay interested in their wives after 50, or is it normal to drift into a sort of friendship?  And I seriously wonder if it is so important for a man to stay 100% faithful later in life. Maybe it really is asking too much.  It seems that most of them cannot live up to that ideal.

Maybe what women really need is a REAL assessment of how many men actually remain faithful to their partners throughout life without porn, girlfriends, mistresses or call-girls. Would the holy men please stand up and tell us it is not a pipe dream?

Meredith,
You don’t get it because you are not part of the solution but rather the problem.  There doesn’t seem to be one thing about you for a true gentleman to respect or cherish.  I know you think you are one of life’s successes but in reality you will find in the end, you have failed….and miserably!  There is a beauty to life that is hidden from those whose attitude is angry and abrasive. Men of goodness and honor and virtue are all around but would not seek to know you as you are now projecting yourself. I have always treated men with respect and in turn have always been treated like a lady. I act,speak and dress feminine and pretty and doors have opened for me with a smile. It’s not fake or phony or done for attention. I legitimately enjoy and respect men as I have all my life starting with my own father and brothers and husband.  Look for goodness..you’ll find it. Expect and prepare for battle….you’ll be fighting that all your life and in the end you’ll be alone.

@ilovepgh I have a PhD, and I don’t dress modestly, so based on your virgin/slut dichotomy, I guess that means I dress “slutty.” As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t really matter to me what you see when I’m walking through the mall in my “immodest” attire. I still have the respect of others in my field, the respect and adoration of my husband, and that nice paycheck that a PhD warrants.

It’s really unfortunate that all of the religious commenters here are giving this dichotomy so much momentum by continuously mobilizing it. Interestingly, I’ve been doing some reading on what Freud and others have to say on this subject. According to Freudian psychology, this “love of mothers/hatred of women who are sexually attractive” develops in men who had cold or distant mothers.

Lastly, for everyone here who enjoys judging women based on their attire - what happened to “judge not, lest ye be judged?” I guess God wants you all to make an exception when it comes to the clothes other women wear…

Perhaps the word we are looking for is not “pretty” but “beauty”. Any woman at any age can be beautiful. It comes from the inside, from the soul. Pretty is as pretty does, but a beautiful woman is a jewel in anyone’s life.

@Adriana and athenian_oracle:  This is rather ridiculous.  I have supported both of you all along to wear what you like—and to wear what is comfortable.  Dress for yourself —not for men (if that is your objective).  If you want a career—go for it.  Life is full of many choices.  My wife does not “take orders” from me nor do I “dictate” anything to her.  My daughter’s virginity is not a commodity for sale.  Biblically, virginity is to be reserved for marriage.  And before you jump down my throat yet again, that same principle applies to my sons.  This is how they have been taught.  If you knew the gospel, even Jesus did not condemn the woman found in adultery.  He (Jesus) actually defended her and protected her from judgmental men of her time.  Both of you sound very angry.  Perhaps you have never heard the true message of the gospel?  It’s about forgiveness, not judgment.

Athena, Athena, Athena….if only you could hear the thoughts of many as you walk by.  I know you think people “think” well of you despite your attire but you are wrong.  Everyone who knows you (that doesn’t dress slutty) is looking at you and thinking, “what is SHE thinking wearing that!”  They will never tell you unless you absolutely convince them you really want the truth. Even your husband (unless he’s a biker) most likely isn’t happy you parade around as you do but he does have to live with you and isn’t interested in starting WWIII and so he continues to lie to you and tell you “you look hot”!  Step back, grow up and dress right.  PHD or not,there’s something to be said for having “common sense”.

Momofthree, I’m not quite sure if you were addressing my comments.  The word “feminist” has very poor connotations in some circles,(and because of *some* very angry, hateful and misguided people)but I think it is safe to say that Jesus was quite the feminist.  He advocated for women, and for their rights as human beings, and co-heirs with men.  Clearly, abuse between the sexes will continue to occur so long as fallen human nature, and selfishness exist. Elevating the status quo, even if others begrudge it, is good.  Rosa Parks did that.  As for the whole “hot” versus “pretty”—I see a lot of virtue on both sides of the “debate”.  I think we can all agree that the issue was over simplified.  I thoroughly believe that women have the right to age gracefully, and with dignity.  And yes, even the classic looks in a J. Crew catalog would have been condemned as scandalous at the turn of the century…
Yes,Mary Ann, life IS a battle, but I think it was just a little too easy for you to smack down a sister who has been wounded. 
Meredith, I hope you can find a good, holy, balanced man of God to be the father of your child.  I prayed to God for mine.  We have had to fight the forces of this world that tear people apart, and it hasn’t always been easy (understatement)  But it is SO good, and I am SO grateful.
Finally, I can honestly say that a very good, honest, and holy priest helped form me in my outlook, when *I* was tempted to live in a “safe” world of judgment and *oversimplification*.

@momofthree, just saw Anna’s comment :)

Maybe what women really need is a REAL assessment of how many men actually remain faithful to their partners throughout life without porn, girlfriends, mistresses or call-girls. Would the holy men please stand up and tell us it is not a pipe dream?  I know a few, but there have been indiscretions. I know quite a few that dumped their wives once they hit 55 and traded in for another model. In fact, it was catchy, so that one guy seemed to be influencing the next. They ALWAYS traded in for a younger model.  This hardened the hearts of many young women, as we felt that the dream of a love for life was a lie. But maybe there are more wonderful, virtuous guys out there than we know about?  Can Pat or other guys give us a long list of men who stayed faithful into their late years?

@Lector - something does not have to be “for sale” to be considered a commodity.

@anna - Meredeth doesn’t actually need a man to father her child - technology allows women to select sperm from donor catalogues and carry the child to term. I think she would argue that the mistake you made is assuming that she needs a man in her life (to bring balance or guidance or something?). This is simply not true! Women have been undervalued and debased by patriarchy for countless centuries. Now we are finally able to have jobs, own property, and pursue an education if we so choose. That is wonderful that you are grateful for the man in your life, but please do not assume that every woman needs a man in hers.

I am sixty-five yrs old my best friends father, who is 90, told me once that he missed the days when ladies wore hats and gloves to church. I still wear a hat somestimes. Another gentleman in our church told me that he still liked to see ladies wear hats. What happened. Just like church, I was raised to wear the best we had, not come in our sweat pants. I think that it is disrespectful to God. Women,girls, have not respect for themselves. There is a time and place of everything. Look in the mirrow

Lector:  When you made snide comments about women wanting careers instead of being wives and mothers (why not both, as both Cristina Fernanded de Kirchner and Dilma Rousseff can testify?) and saying that we were wrong to chose so, you showed your true colors.

And when you castigated another woman for being “in rebellion” for not being subject to her husband, and used Scripture to bash her over the head for it, how do you want me to interpret it?

@Adriana:  This is not a competition.  I have not once advocated women never having careers.  Do as you please.  Wear what you please.  When it comes to the gospel, however, there can be no fence sitters.  The message of Christ declares that men and women ultimately must take a position.  Jesus said if you are not for Him you are against Him.  Taking a position of indifference is rebellion.  Being lukewarm is rebellion.  Once having heard truth (Truth being someONE not someTHING), if you choose to reject Christ you are not in rebellion to your husband, you are living in rebellion against Jesus who is your only hope for eternal life.  This is why atheists cannot stand the Word of God.  Atheists have chosen to go their own way rather than His.  They live in deception.  True freedom in this life is only found in a relationship with Christ Jesus.

2 points:
1. I personally prefer words like pretty, attractive, beautiful etc to “hot” when someone is paying me a compliment. I don’t necessarily take “hot” as a compliment.
2. To all those who want to see modest clothing for our young ladies, I started a “stylish but modest” clothing line called Michaela-Noe. Check out www.michaela-noel.com
Like us on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/#!/Michaela.Noel.stylish.modest.clothes

I am in another boat altogether…I prefer to dress modestly and look pretty but have a spouse who is always pushing for me dressing more sexy and putting on more makeup. I wish he understood. He thinks I don’t want to because I am self conscious about my figure but doesn’t grasp that it’s not that at all. It’s not wanting to feel exposed and not wanting the kind of attention that dressing sexy would garner, in addition to respecting my moral and spiritual beliefs. But I also think he is going through his own midlife dissatisfaction with his appearance and somehow trying to make me look younger makes him feel better. Very frustrating!

I’m 47..I remember even when I was in elementary school..girls had carried themselves in a way that demanded respect.I always saw girls as mature,level-headed..when boys acted like fools a girl just with a condescending look could bring them back into line.Even at my worst I would never curse in front of a girl.Eventually over time girls gave up that natural power in order to be more like the boys.Girls started cursing like boys..acting out and trying to be more like the boys..eventually the respect they once were given went out the window.this article hits right on the nose what happened since the radical feminists hijacked womens lib.Women have objectified themselves and in seeking power have actually lost it.Today there is no respect or a major lack of it.even at a young age boys need for girls to show them how to behave and carry themselves.With that gone it’s become chaotic and confusing…I hope that parents of girls will help and protect them from falling into the lie that is popular culture and show them that they already possess a power that was given them from God..their femininity.

Just look at the primetime sitcomes on tv today.  All they do is degrade women.  Even woman degrade other women.  Three and ahalf men the whole show is about bedding women and in front of a 10 year old boy.  And Hot in Cleveland every other word is “BOOB” or “ASS’ and all of them talking about having sex.  Betty White should be ashamed of herself.  I long for the Andy Griffin show and the Beverly Hillbillies.

Beautiful article. My daughter is turning 16, and I have taught her to be pretty. She has nice friends, attracts the nicer, sweeter guys, and (most of all) has the respect of people she meets. I tell her that it might be hard sometimes with the peer pressure when you are the only “good girl” in the room, but that the payoff is well worth it. Again, just in the kinds of guys she attracts, she has already seen the good that comes from being pretty instead of hot!

“HOT” ???  You mean SLUTTY !!!!!

Re: your ending “argument - “For every Taylor Swift…”, Miss Swift is far from innocent and “pretty”... she may DRESS more modestly than many other young adult women of her generation, but you obviously have not taken note of how she wears her hair and make-up which, IMO, does NOT suggest modesty at all.

Thank you for summing up so succinctly the feelings of myself, my husband and so many others. With this article, you have shaped into words a knowledge that slumbered in the hearts of many as unarticulated and nearly forgotten knowledge.
I personally spent nearly two decades—all of my developmental years, in fact—trying to be “hot”, and I was surely a commodity to be consumed. And as you say here, I nearly was consumed in my entirety. If not for God and His gift of my husband, I doubt I would be alive today in any real sense of the word, the drugs, sex and emptiness of being “hot” would have burnt all that is real and true out of me instead, if not ending my life in ways utterly final as well.
I fear for where we are heading. I fear for the future of my son and my daughter, and I wonder what sort of men and women will be commonplace when they are grown enough to mistake themselves for adults. While I do not believe that the hyper-sexuality of modern society can be revoked, articles like yours encourage me to hope that fifteen years from now there will at least be a strong counter-culture full of those seeking a more meaningful life.

I really appreciate the substance of this article and the ensuing discussion posted by other readers. While we don’t wear bonnets and prairie skirts, those of my faith strive to be modest and teach our teenagers to dress in a way that doesn’t draw attention to their bodies. Our “For The Strength of Youth” pamphlet reads: “The way you dress is a reflection of what you are on the inside. Your dress and grooming send messages about you to others and influence the way you and others act. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and can exercise a good influence on those
around you. Never lower your dress standards for any occasion. Doing so sends the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval and that modesty is important only when it is convenient…Ask yourself, ‘Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were
in the Lord’s presence?’”
I have many Catholic friends, but I’ve never stopped to ask them what their tenets teach youth about dress standards. Can anyone on this discussion board fill me in?

A few thoughts.  Not all men see hot in the same terms.  It appears that women seen *hot* in a negative connotation.  IMO, my own wife is hot which is “extremely pretty” to me—and has always dressed modestly since the day I first met her.  She respects herself and takes care of herself to look her best.  It is not, however, self-absorbed vanity.  She does not need to dress in a particular way nor wear makeup to be attractive to me.  For Adriana and athenian, my wife is free to dress in whatever clothing she likes that suits the event, occasion, work or at home.  Some women on this thread enjoy calling other women the disgusting term “slut.”  Remarkably, women seem to use this term far more than men.  I personally know of no men who use this term.  Furthermore, because a women might dress in a risque manner does not give anyone the right to assume what her sexual behavior is.  It is, however, as Mary Ann wrote, common sense that if a woman does not wish to draw the inappropriate attention of certain men it is better to avoid suggestive clothing.  On the other hand, if you enjoy having men pay “eye” your assets, dressing in a particular way is your choice.

@momofthree:  You have been told a lie that all men eventually cheat and/or dump their wives for a younger model.  We are not the idiots portrayed in the stands at NFL games, viewers of porn or men acting in beer commericals wearing baseball caps backward.  You have been deceived by media driven juveniles who have never grown up.  How you see men on TV are the thoughts of those immature men employed in that business.

@Vicki:  I applaud your comments concerning your own daughter.

People are like water,—they each seek their own level.  Please define what you are seeking in another person to date and perhaps eventually marry.  While there are always exceptions, would you most likely find an ideal dating/marriage partner for life at a Binge Party, Wet T Shirt Contest, Internet Dating Site, Church Singles Group, School Event or a dozen other places.  Men respect women who first respect themselves.

Finally, @athenian:  I you want a man, don’t marry a boy.  Or don’t marry at all.

This is a wonderful and true article…pretty is no longer in the words of young girl teenagers who want to look like fergie.
I witnessed the crime scene on new years eve..a block party that was not pretty.  These young girls looking like street girls and it sickened my stomach.  4 inch heels and they could hardly balance themselves..in order to walk in pretty u need to take up modeling as a career!
I feel sorry for these so called hot girls..they will never know the meaning of innocence, pretty,
They have traded their innocence for something ugly.111

@LectoratMass
You project perfectly what I said,that many good, honorable men ARE out there. You sir are one of them. Well said.

“Truth is beauty and beauty is truth”.

@Minority Mormon:  As a Catholic, I have never seen any literature from my parish or diocese dealing with appropriate clothing for teenagers.  Typcially, this is left to the good sense of parental leadership to train daughters and sons.  You (and the LDS) do raise an excellent consideration and since this thread has now emerged I am considering speaking to my Pastor about what you have asked.  If the Lord would return this day, would I be wearing clothing appropriate in his presence?  We should be thinking about that especially whenever entering a house of worship.  This applies to men as well.

I stand corrected.  “Beauty is Truth, Truth beauty”.  John Keats My apologies.

Girls, please, bring back the pretty.

I’m sorry, Pat Archibold, is it? Who are you again? Did someone select you from on high to deliver a message to all women out there on how to look?

Oh wait, I’m sorry… to the GIRLS out there. Because, you know, you’re trying to make a point. Little girls need to be told what to do, right? Megan Fox is in her 20’s. She’s a woman, not a little girl.

But, I get the feeling that it makes little difference to you, seeing as how you know best.

Bring back the pretty? How ‘bout bring back some humility, Pat. Might be hard to see all the way up there on your high horse, though.

Lector,
Thanks for those words, I hope they are true and have put my eggs in that basket, but in my own life, the carnage is strewn all around.  Many men dumped their wives about 55, or cheated or used porn or had a mistress.  Many women my age got scared, and decided to forgo marriage an childbearing or delay it until the 30s. It seemed like the epitome of stupid to settle down young, given the evidence of the divorce culture of the 70’s and 80’s. I do know a few great men who have stayed the course, but we were spooked so badly that they seemed rare and impossible to us.  Even my uncle who seemed the truest of the true had an affair.  My own father was and is an alcoholic who stayed with my saint of a mother, but he also had his side dalliance.  For a long time I lost all respect for my mother for staying with him.

Today, as I see the fallout from the divorces of many of my friends’ parents, I realize that their staying the course was perhaps not so bad, in light of the other option. Only one of the “empowered” moms eventually found stability and true love after her divorce.  The rest have fared poorly, both financially and emotionally, and their children are horribly scarred.

@Lector and all the other men here and women married to them. 
I really think we need a loud, widespread movement of married and faithful men to stand up and publish a book, have a rally, start a movement…kinda like the “silent no more” movement.  You seem to be a rare species.  I am talking about men who have been married for 20 years or more (preferably more) and are faithful and honest.  Show us it is possible.  The whole world has lost faith that it is indeed possible and probable.

I think the mode of dress that is popular with our youth(and some in to their forties) strikes a sour chord with many today because it seems to be the external “face” of the immoral attitude of this generation.  In other words it reflects a reality to the philosophy many live by today which is anything goes.  A generation of dulled consciences and “if it feels good do it”. No sense of right or wrong.  Success is measured by a paycheck rather than a life well-lived by contributing to the world of decency.  Anyone, such as Pat Archibold, who tries to defend decency, is immediately attacked by individuals with this life style. This article shows no lack of humility on Mr Archibolds part but rather a man expressing what many men and women feel today about the mode of attire worn by some women. If a photo of a women dressed in this attire were shown to anyone on the street 30 years ago and ask, ” How do you describe what you see in this picture”, 9 out of 10 or more people would have answered,“she looks like a street walker”.

There isn’t any reason why a practicing Catholic should be unaware of what the Church teaches about manner of dress and attitude.

According to our catechism:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance.

Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing

to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity

to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at

others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of

persons and their solidarity.

2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It 2492
encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it

requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and

commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is

decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or

reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is

discreet.

2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It 2354
protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human

body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media

that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way

of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the

pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another.

Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual

dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of

being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means

awakening in them respect for the human person.

Caroline and Lector, I agree with your comments. (I’m a Catholic woman who wears modest, fashionable and cool clothes. My aim is to please God and I know modesty pleases Him.)

@elm:  Thanks for the reference #‘s in the catechism.  Such bullet points are not discussed at Mass which is where the majority of Catholics get their information.  They might be covered in RCIC for young people but there is no mention of them in RCIA.  Appropriate clothing is just common sense anyway.  Good to know, nevetheless.

Amen! I once wrote a free verse piece called “Beautiful vs. Hot” - it’s a pretty lame poem, I must admit, but the sentiment lines up with this blog.  “Hotness fades… beauty is.”

Pat, may I suggest a Women’s Studies course to prevent this patently false generalization, “It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity.” Because of women’s liberation, women now have recognized intelligence in matters beyond the household, leadership capabilities, wider opportunities, more self-determination and freedom to be all that God made possible for us, etc. We are way more than simply “pretty” to be protected or “hot” to be consumed. Feminist theorists critiqued the male domination problem in both of these male-oriented definitions of “femininity” that promote women as a commodity, albeit different commodities. I lament the situation when women unconsciously or consciously limit themselves by being objectified as “pretty” or “hot.”

Yay!  Just what we need!  Another public discussion of modesty with the attending pridefulness, graphic lingering on what is offensive to modesty, and bonus misogyny in a handful of the most enthusiastic modesty-mongers.

When men and women discuss modesty together, on the internet, the outcome is usually more immodest than helpful.  Seriously.  Please.  Male. Bloggers.  Just. Stop. Talking about it.

The woman’s study is called Mulierius Dignitatum. Also JPII Letter to Women. There is a website/organization that teaches women how to use their feminine genius in the world. It can be found at ENDOWonline.org. It stands for Educating on the Nature and Dignity of Women. Any study based on Theology of the Body will produce much fruit when it comes to seeing the human body in light of it’s dignity as given by it’s Creator. Theology of the Body is for men and women, single or married and even clergy.

Plain and simple: Hotness is power. Innocence is someone who is led around by their pretty face.

@ Meredith—you had me in your first few paragraphs and then lost me.  I mean to say, I am angry too.  Angry that men of my generation (I’m 41) have been taught to use women, fear marriage, and shun God.  I firmly believe those three points are why I have neither a husband or children.
.
Thanks a lot feminists….  you know, men were listening when the feminists were shouting “We don’t need men!”  and thanks to that shouting they have become what we have now. We don’t need them, so they became worthless.  Well, that’s just awesome.

@ Mary Ann—I think you came down pretty hard on Meredith… easy for you, because you HAVE a husband!  Ever think that maybe you snagged the last good one?  do you think you deserve him more than I do?
.
I only have a career because i had to support myself until marriage. I didn’t know it would take more than 20 years to find a suitable partner.  Yes, I am proud of my accomplishments…. but not as proud as I would be if I had a beautiful loving marriage and a family.
.
@Pat… please please please write something for single men (of ALL ages) to help them identify the strong, loving, doting, Godly women that are available to them…. and how to treat us right and win our hearts.  I simply cannot go another 20 years alone.  Show them how to be brave enough for marriage.  That these difficult times are easier with a loving caring, faithful partner (wife) at one’s side.
.
Commenters here keep saying that there are wonderful godly men out there—- as evidenced by the comments here….. but those men are ALL MARRIED!  I’m so sick of everyone pointing out the great men who are UNAVAILABLE!! It’s like telling us how good your meal was - now that all the food is gone!

So we have “skirts” on the right, thinking the rest of us are heathens, and Oracles on the left, thinking they can shop for sperm from a catalog…
What to do…
Talk a lot to THE man Jesus…
live life expansively, with love and joy,
remind my daughter that: she will meet all kinds of people, (most are good), give wide berth to the sanctimonious and the haters (which can be found at the fringes of both sides)
be a lover of culture,
embrace fashion in the many ways that it is good
take one big pace back from the “cutting edge”
and feminine beauty should be at the service of charity.

@Lector - I’m not sure what you meant by your comment, or what you are suggesting about my husband…

@Mary Ann - Thank you for your comment. I’m not quite sure where you got “biker” from; I guess that’s the only kind of non-conservative male fashion you’re acquainted with? My friends, many of whom have completed or are in the process of completing a graduate degree themselves, all dress the way I do. Despite the fact that I haven’t told you what I wear when I leave the house, you have decided to tell me that I dress “slutty” and that my husband is afraid of me, so he pretends that he likes the way I look.  Not only does your interpretation of what I have said so far illustrate a serious reading comprehension issue on your part, it also goes to show how fearful, judgemental, and ignorant religious people like you truly are. Well done!

Great article Pat. An interesting link -> http://vanishingamerican.blogspot.com/2012/01/prettiness-gone-way-of-goodness.html

Message for athenian_oracle and the rest of the feminist crew: please get lost. There are a lot of feminist websites that you can join. Google them and you will find them. There are a couple of liberal atheist blogs that you can follow too. Besides that cheers everyone and Happy New Year!

Someone needs to take a women’s history course. If they did they would notice the glaring inaccuracy of the remarks in regards to women’s liberation. I implore this writer and any one else to look up what people did in society to undermine any of the women’s liberation movement. Look up the history of the beauty pageant as a form of duping women out of demanding equal rights. Oh I also appreciate the great laugh I got from this article. It was hilarious to read the breakdown of the language. It is as if two separate people have written this article and if they were hoping to give off an air of intelligence at the beginning of the article for using the word “concupiscence”, it dies after the third paragraph. I actually fell of my chair laughing at this dribble. Keep living in your delusional world, that should keep your innocence.

Concupiscence is a word that describes original sin. It is not a lofty word but a word that tells why man sins still despite our Saviors sacrifice for our very souls.

2514 St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or 377,400
concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life.301 In

the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids

carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.

From the Catechism:

2515 Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense 405
form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular

meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the

operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it

with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the “spirit.“302 Concupiscence

stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s

moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man

to commit sins.303

I do understand women’s history. I have a sister who was a state representative for ERA. I understand how she has had to keep from running into brick walls all of her career. I understand how much she loved her second husband. She had a needlepoint on her family room wall that said, “The hand that rocks the cradle can also rock the world.” I have also watched her fight motherhood as compared to her career. She remarked not too long ago that her children are the best thing that she ever did. NO woman lying on her death bed will say, “I wish I had climbed higher on the ladder, I wish I had more plastic surgery to make me look hot, or I wish I had hit more sales a Vickies.” What matters in the end is how we affect others and what we have contributed to make the world better than when we first began. Pretty is as pretty does. Beauty comes from the soul, and there is no faking it.

Dear Lector: Glad to see that you approve of my chosen path, even though you are sure that I am going to Hell for not keeping my appointed place (funny - a woman always has a place, and should not step out of it, and if she does, a man will explain to her why that is wrong).  So, you are a good Christian husband, and we should all hope to find one like you, instead of having careers.

Then someone points out that men like you do not grow on trees.

Do you see the math problem there?  More available women than good men.  Some lucky women will get the prizes - guys like you. The rest?  The rest have to make do with the rest, be they skirt chasers, drunk, abusive, or any undesirable combination.  We will have to take them, because, since we did not think about careers, we need to get married to keep from starving to death.  And after we get stuck with the losers, we are told to pray that their hearts will turn. And to endure, no matter what.

So we prefer to have careers, and to marry because we want the man, not because we want to eat every day. And we are choosier because of it. 

Raise the supply of godly men and we will reconsider, but we do not want to get stuck with a bad husband in order to be able to afford food and shelter.

And yes, when we have a job, and work at it, we want recognition, and good pay - because that’s what a job is for.

And do you remember the old saying “easier to buy milk than to keep a cow”?  Well, in either case, there is only one commodity that women supply, and whether you get it in marriage or in one night stands it does not matter. It is a view that says that women are for one reason only. Think about it.

Yep.  The so called sexual revolution backfired.  Instead of real equality where it matters, such as economic justice, we managed to get ourselves into the position of being commodities on shelves, with men as the affluent consumers with the right to pick and choose. 

“Pretty” isn’t something I aspire to in middle age, but elegant, chic, self-composed, and self-respecting are my current fashion watchwords.  This excludes the “hot” look which makes most women, IMHO, look just plain trashy.  People dress like trash, talk trash, and fill their minds with trash, and then wonder why they get treated like trash! 

Worse yet, I wonder if the “hotties” even own a full-length mirror!  I’m no prude, but I would die of embarrassment if I were to have to leave the house trying to look like a starved teenager on crack!

Mr. Archbold,

I am 29 years old, and grew up Catholic.  I always dressed modestly and “prettily,” even when girls my age were not doing so.  Still, from the time I was 10 until I was 25, I was molested, raped, beaten, and verbally and emotionally abused.  Every night, I prayed and begged for something to change, but it never did.  I went from dressing prettily to dressing like an 1840’s pioneer, and still I was abused.  Who was protecting me then?  There was no valor in my home, or in the men who chose to prey on me. 

I am now a happily married Latter-Day Saint woman.  My husband treats me like a queen.  I dress modestly and prettily again.  The abuse has finally stopped.  For you to assert that dressing “pretty” instead of “hot” is a protection in any way is pure ignorance.  I have lived through 15 years of hell, so I believe I’m qualified to inform you of your fallacy. 

God bless you, sir, not for what you have written, but for what you may yet write.

@Adriana who wrote:  “The rest have to make do with the rest, be they skirt chasers, drunk, abusive, or any undesirable combination.  We will have to take them, because, since we did not think about careers, we need to get married to keep from starving to death.  And after we get stuck with the losers, we are told to pray that their hearts will turn. And to endure, no matter what.”

Adriana, while there are always exceptions, men for whom Jesus is Lord of their life are not the men you describe.  For the unfaithful and abusive men, their hearts will never turn until they themselves *first turn* to the Lord.  When Paul speaks of being equally yoked (believing man to a believing woman), this is one’s hedge against all the pain and suffering you describe in relationships.  Men and women who accept the Lordship of Christ in their lives are out there if you seek them.  It’s just that your odds are not very good of finding them in bars, nightclubs, binge or weed events.  Consider where you are looking.  Single women are more likely to find a stable, considerate, respectful man at a church singles dance or potluck than in a bar.  If there is no singles group at your church, (Catholic or Christian) then take the initiative and organize one and advertise in other church bulletins.  Jesus does not call women to “settle” or lower their standards.  He calls us to a higher standard.  If your primary objective is to please the Lord rather than oneself, it is He who will provide for you when you place your trust in Him.  That’s His promise to you in the Sermon on the Mount.  Try Matthew 5, 6 and 7.

@Adriana:  btw, I do not “believe” you are going to Hell.  Most likely you have been deceived by many and do not understand the true message of the gospel.  The Christian life is about forgiveness, deliverance and restoration to new life in Christ Jesus.  It’s available to all —no matter where we’ve been or whatever we may have done.

Many of us remember the “WWJD” (what would jesus do)  bracelets that came out a few years ago for children and young adults to remind them to “ThinK’ before acting. let’s change it to “WWJS”,(what would jesus say)IF He were part of this conversation.  I think He would tell me that I was too harsh in SOME of what I said. For that I apologize. I also think He would gentle tell all of us to be more loving in our speech to each other when disagreeing and I know He would remind each and every one of us that He loves us and that we are ALL Sons and Daughters of a King, future heirs to His throne purchased for us at a great price and that we all (myself included) should act, talk and present ourselves as such in every situation for eventually we (by His Grace) will all meet again in His Kingdom.  God Bless:-)

Thank you, MAry Ann.  That’s why everyone needs a Savior.  We are all sinful people and fall short of His glory.

Yes “Lector”, you are so right. It is my own sins and omissions that I forever try to keep before me so as to always remind myself that I have fallen short in so many instances.  My own sins/ weaknesses always remind me how much mercy God has given me and that their is nothing I should ever find difficult in forgiving in another.

Dear Lector:  Thank you for telling me not to go to bars, nightclubs, weed and binge events, places that I do not frequet at all.  (I went twice to a bar once out of curiosity, and the second one year later to remind myself why I disliked it so much.)  So, please, please, try to give useful advice.  But then, since you are a man, any advice you give to a woman is worthwhile, not matter how ignorant it is. 

I asked you a mathemathical question. Since there are only so many worthwhile men out there, after all the lucky women have got them what are the rest of women to do?

Accept a deeply flawed one, so as to be able to eat every day, and put put with whatever he inflicts, giving thata he is paying the bills?

Or learn how to support herself in dignity, so that if she marries, it is because she does love the man, not to get a meal ticket?

You advocate that women should submit themsevles to the leadership of a godly man.  Well, what about the ones left out?  Submit themselves to the leadership of a flawed one, become utterly dependent on him for the food one eats, and obey no matter what?  That is end up in a helpless position to someone who may not use the leadership wisely?  There are only so many godly men, and since polygamy is banned, what are women to do with themselves?

I hesitate to point out that most people’s comments aren’t really taking into consideration the tone of Mr. Archbold’s article (he clearly states that it is a lament, and is also clearly speaking from his own perspective), any responses would likely be posted by equally extreme and defensive people… BUT!
I agree for the most part with the general message of Mr. Archbold’s article.
Pretty (when taking the working definition provided) is attractive. Sexy is just that, sexy. The fact that pretty requires a stated definition means that it is a more complicated idea (Ladies- we are complicated… not to be easily defined, complicated but worth it).
For all those bashing the women’s lib movement, temper your zeal! Good things came of it, but as with ALL movements and ideas driven by humans, there were flaws.
For those bashing the idea of women choosing to portray a less sexual image… please try to understand that losing the value of pretty (again, as defined by Mr. Archbold) is damaging to everyone. Just as sexuality is valuable, so too is innocence and wholesome beauty.
Balance, people… balance.
Mr.Archbold- there ARE young women who discuss with one another ideal husbands, who know that there is a difference between a guy that you date and a man that you marry. And your choice of phrasing regarding the women’s liberation movement was poor… “has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity.” Only? Not true, and by choosing this extreme wording, you sparked much of the hostility that this thread is laden with.
Also, Mr. Archbold, perhaps you do not appreciate how hard it can be to choose to strive for ‘pretty’ when the demand for pretty is both negligible and mocked. As a young woman raised in a Christian home, I am displeased that you don’t see this. Please, in future articles, temper your words with wisdom and charity for your readers.

What a great article!  I’ve recently read a book called “Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty” by Nancy Etcoff.  HIGHLY recommend the read!  However, even before I read the book or your article, I used the word “pretty” to describe myself on every online profile I have! 

It’s how I feel about myself.  It’s what I’ve been called my entire life - and now, at age 55, I still find men and women calling me ... PRETTY!  And, I am!  Inside and out.  NOT hot, although when younger, had it been polite back then, I’m sure someone would’ve called me that, too but probably only the young men on the disco floor wanting more than a dance! 

To me, pretty means being sweet to people, being nice and kind, especially to those less fortunate.  It means having a good sense of humor, and a balanced sense of right, wrong, graciousness, elegance and civility. Good manners, good etiquette, & good hearted. 

Being attractive in appearance isn’t being pretty - I know some ugly-hearted gorgeous women.  Everyone has their own kind of pretty, if they are pretty at all.  ALL women have SOMETHING pretty going on, outside OR inside! I didn’t bother reading all comments left above because I believe I can guess fairly accurately what the negative remarks will be, and what they’ll be about,and the positive, well, they will only add to the PRETTINESS of all! 

Besides, what THEY think doesn’t concern ME.  Because, you see, I AM PRETTY! I KNOW IT AND I’M PROUD OF IT! <smiling sweetly>  Ya’ll have a nice day, and don’t forget to say thank you for YOUR prettiness when you say your prayers tonight!

PRETTY LIVES ON & WILL FOREVER!

I disagree. I don’t like it when people make broad statements about “society” or “people” or “teenagers” or “kids” being certain ways, especially when the statements imply negativity. I know soooooo many great kids and great people. In this case, “pretty” can only be dead if people stop looking for it and seeing it in the people around them.

Now my blood pressure is up and I am extremely agitated :) I don’t even know where to begin with my list of complaints about the content of this article. How in the heck did women striving for equality turn them into “consumables”??? The whole thing is a crock of crap and the author is an A hole. Women “should know better”???!!! ROTFLMAO. Even his stupid crappy example of Olivia Newton John changing her looks to “get the guy” doesn’t fly. She only changed because she knew what the guy “wanted”. And it was a movie!!! Theatre is known for adding “extreme”. Whatever… I have 3 “men” in my life as family… my twin teenage sons and my ex husband. I also have several male friends, a father and two brothers. My sons have never had “girlfriends” but they have lots of girl friends. I’ve met them all, and not one of them is Lindsay Lohan or Miley Cyrus. They are bright, articulate, modestly dressed young women. And I don’t believe they are the exception. On the contrary, I believe they are the majority. The author’s view is, in my opinion, tainted and contrived. He does, after all, need a paycheck. I know I’m stirring the pot now and may have offended someone. I’m sorry, but I love a good debate :) I’d love to hear your rebuttal :)

LOL… I keep forgetting that part of an author’s job is to inspire emotion in the readers. On that note, this author has definitely succeeded :)

Thank you so much for writing this! I completely agree with you. While this is not 100% the case, it is very real. You see fishnet stockings, itty, bitty shirts and as much showing as possible. All playing up the fact of “assets”. How can women not be a commodity when displaying themselves like that. I for one completely am shouting out an “amen!” Because there is definitely a way of looking pretty without looking like you’re wearing a mop. And it *does* take both the effort of the guys and girls to take that back. Not just the girls, not just the guys. We all must change our thinking. Then hopefully that will change the advertising!

Personally, I don’t give a flying s#*t what men want to see in me.  I am who I am, like it or leave it.  My husband of the last 12 years has no problem with that and we are happily married.  I decided long ago to NEVER be anyone I wasn’t and to take the like it or leave it approach because my happiness matters too!

I love this article, but beauty can be free from religion as well.  To admit fault with the illusion of the “bygone” eras means that you must also admit that religion has it’s illusions too.

Pretty is as pretty does!

I enjoyed this article thoroughly.  As and LDS college student in a small town in a very Liberal state I share the sentiment that pretty is in small supply these days.  My friends, though wonderful people in many ways, do not aspire to be virtuous and beautiful.  It is difficult to not be sucked into the vacuum of hotness and sexuality that is so blatantly projected in today’s popular music, television and lifestyle. I see it and live around it everyday. This article helped me to realize that Pretty is something I want to be, inside and out.  I think if more young women (myself included) had the courage to behave and dress in the way they feel comfortable and the way they feel is appropriate, things could take a turn for the better.  I don’t believe it is a lack of desire to behave and dress in a pretty manner, it is the fear of rejection if they don’t strive to be “sexy, hot, etc”.  I also hold men somewhat responsible, for women are inclined to dress and behave in ways they think will attract men. However, I believe there are more great men out there than we give them credit for, I think media has played a stronger role, by telling women what men want. (picked up a cosmo magazine lately!?)  I know there are fantastic and virtuous men and women out there, it is simply a matter of letting your guard down, living for your own beliefs and ideals, and being true to yourself.

It seems like many of you suffer from “special snowflake syndrome” You honestly think that you’re special because you dress “pretty”? Let me explain something to you. You have the mentality that Women are only on Earth to be pretty. And that is just plain sad. Men can wear whatever they wish, but a woman has to be ‘pretty’ or ‘hot’ or ‘sexy’. Can’t she wear what she wants? A man wears a speedo to the beach, good for him. A woman wears a bikini and she’s a slut. Not that it’s 100+ degrees outside and maybe she wants a tan, no, she’s a slut, how dare she wear something that might tempt a man, like he has no control over his reactions.

Ladies, you are not special for dressing ‘pretty’ as you put it. You are not more ‘Godly’ you are not ‘better’ than other women. Get over yourselves. Women can wear what they want to wear because honestly, it’s NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Can’t you just worry about yourselves for once without sticking your noses into others lives?

no, women are not “only” on earth to be pretty…nonetheless they ought to be be pretty (aka feminine) for men (as men ought to be masculine for women)—- sadly, Daisuke has no clue that men and women are different, and male sexual response/arousal is tied to the visual—- everyone is called to dress and act modestly (no real man wears a speedo, except those clueless euros)

As a (hot) college freshman who has decided to be a Catholic nun, I identify with this article. I must put to rest some of the comments that have been posted on this site though. I have the ideal Dad. He is tall, handsome, intelligent, and wealthy. He has taught me to respect myself and those around me with grace and dignity. HOWEVER, this ideal Father I have been blessed with has not made me anymore blind to the OMG OMG I NEED A HOT BOYFRIEND LYKE NOW mindset our society has-because it is their for a reason. God told the fallen Eve in the garden that her desire would be for her husband. Girls need attention..always have and always will. It is our curse, per se. Even girls with model fathers can be desperate for romantic attention, although the percentages for teen pregnancies and the like are much lower for these girls, admittedly.

On another note, when I entered college I went in thinking, ‘I need to find a boyfriend and STAT.’ I wore “modest” clothing by Christianity’s standards, but I still wore stuff that, honestly, showed my figure off way too much and went just a little over the line. Considering being a nun then seriously discerning it really put my heart in the right place, and my clothes started to match. I agree with many of the posts wh says that the problem is not with the ‘slutty heathens’ out there, since they will find mates of their own kind and get divorced 3 times and raise children who repeat the process. No, the REAL process lies within the Church, as we are held to a higher standard. You have girls (and guys) like me who cross the line just a little in how we dress and how we act, and it really does lead to chaos within Christianity. Cafeteria Christianity must go: this includes choices in fashion and modesty. When we, who represent Christ here on earth, brainwash ourselves to believe that we are greedy corporate machines who deserve a roll in the hay every Friday night, we lose our purpose and we lose ourselves.

This article left out an answer to the problem poss by the Death of Pretty. Well here’s one. We need to not focus on the opposite sex as much as we are. As of right now, both the innocent parties and he slutty parties are serving the boys, just in different ways. Christians need to start looking at God again. That is when a person loses the desperation of needing to find a mate, and finds peace.
I can honestly say that, as a former ‘hot’ girl, I have never felt more beautiful than when I put God and others first, and dress like I am a servant of God, not a servant to the boys.

There are still many “pretty” women in the world, although I will admit that they don’t get noticed as much as the “hot” women… It’s more noticeable to be “hot” than pretty in the media, in the entertainment world and thus setting up the model for teens, young women and adult women alike. These ideals are set up to get attention… and being pretty, feminine and innocent doesn’t seem to make it anymore unless you are someone like Audrey Hepburn. There are even young girls from the ages of innocent babies, who are dressed up to portray the images of being “Hot” and paraded in ridiculous pageants to win prizes!  That has taken their innocence and youthfulness as well as their childlike prettiness away from them.  I believe in being pretty rather than hot… I believe that many women are pretty, just not aware of that innocent quality that makes them qualify as being pretty. I am in my 50’s and I feel pretty… I don’t believe that being pretty has died just yet… it is just passing into the time of becoming extinct, there is still hope….... as long as there is hope, there is life… pretty women are everywhere, you just have to look into their hearts!

fred: so a woman gets raped because she aroused a man by what she was dressing?  So it is her fault?  Her rapist an innocent victim? And just because you think a “pretty” woman is pleasing to you does not mean that she ought to.  She does not know you, and does not owe you anything, except your due as a human being, something that you deny to her, when you dictate how she should dress.

This is ridiculous! Was Marilyn Monroe “pretty” or “hot”? Jayne Mansfield? Elizabeth Taylor? We’re they “innocent”, “doe eyed”, and “modest”? What about pin up girls from the 1940’s? Or flappers from the 1920’s shacking their spaghetti straped fringed dresses? We’re they modest? Are stockings and garters “hotter” than “pantyhose”? Pantyhose are a realitively new invention. Can I wear a strapless dress for a night out like my grandmother did in the 50’s?
On a side note: Men are visual creatures but guess what! Women are too! I like a strong man with out a shirt on! I like a man in shorts so I can see his calf muscles! Now men need to start covering up b/c I am so tempted and have lascivious thoughts and you guys are tempting me to sin!
Give me a break!

well, for one moment I agreed with Adriana @ Jan 3 11:57 - that those of us who don’t find the good Godly men who are indeed in short, egregiously short supply… have to settle for boneheads. (I paraphrase).  The other option, the option I have taken is not to marry at all.  and I don’t date as much as I would like because I’m so turned off by secular men’s attitudes.
.
And I’m planting a BS flag on Lector who I usually tend to agree with…  for saying “Consider where you are looking.  Single women are more likely to find a stable, considerate, respectful man at a church singles dance or potluck than in a bar.” 
.
STOP IT!  STOP IT, STOP IT! There are NOT single men at church. there are not there are not there are not!!!!!!!!!!!  I’ve been going to church for 41 years and I’ve only met one man there who ever asked me out (and that was 3 months ago)  Pretty terrible rate of return.  And yes, I even did start an adult fellowship group at my church… and still… that’s the rate of return.
.
Maybe all you married people should be bringing all these single men to church.  God knows they’re not showing up on their own.

Thank you for putting into words what I have long been feeling. As an LDS mother of 5 children (2 boys and 3 girls), the challenge to help my daughter dress appropriately is one of the biggest challenges I face. It was hard enough when they were 6 or 8 and all the clothes looked like something Britney Spears would wear. I kept thinking back then, “who wants their six year old to look sexy???” Now that they’re teenagers and really do have the potential to look sexy, it is an uphill battle to find something stylish, without comprising our standards.

A famous designer once described the difference between ‘pretty’ and ‘beautiful’.  Pretty is whispy and thought-less (thus what the author describes as needing to be protected) While ‘Beautiful’ is Powerful and Self Aware. This seems to be yet another religious author trying to make the case for how women should behave, or dress or project in order to illicit the proper response from men; being protected and under their wing. I wonder how it would go off in the Male community at large, or the Religiously oriented male community If one wrote an article on the Death of Handsome. How trite really. I am so much more content to be Beautiful; confident in my sexuality, Knowledgable about the power that holds, comfortable knowing that I am perceived for what I AM not what I PROJECT. Projecting is an act, it is not real, it is fake innocence, or even fake sexiness; it is an attempt to attract something to oneself via a value one does NOT really posses. When one sees the real deal, they know it. And, in most Latin cultures, that is when a man turns his head to see it walk down the street in an act of pure admiration.

As a young woman reading this post, I’m relieved to hear there are some people out there who still think pretty is attractive. I couldn’t be hot if I tried. And I’ve tried. I’ve gone back to pretty; it’s too hard to be something I’m not. But I must say, I have to disagree with the idea that a woman can be pretty (with innocence) and still be taken seriously. I’ve moved away from home and tried to make something of myself career-wise, and I’ve found more often than not the men I come in contact with are far more willing to take advantage of me than they are to protect me, no matter how I’m dressed. I think it’s dangerous to teach any young girl to expect a certain behaviour from a man because of how she’s presenting herself. The most valuable lessons she can be taught are those of self-respect and how to guard her heart and body against those who do not take her self-respect seriously. There aren’t two kinds of men: bad boys and good men. There’s a bevy of different levels of men looking for different things and seeing different things when they look at a woman. Certainly, a women who wishes to be viewed a certain way should do her best to present that image, but she can’t depend on that image to get what she wants. She’ll need more than that—especially enough self-respect to realize when she’s being denied the treatment she wants unfairly and do something about it.

I’ve got a bone to pick with the author. Pretty and Hot are different in each person’s mind. I often get slapped with a “Hot” or “Sexy” label because of the way my body is shaped. There is nothing I can do to change my shape. I don’t dress trashy or act that way, and I resent that you want to label women. Women are, believe it or not, much more than their appearance. I know plenty of girls who fit your definition of “pretty” and do not act in “innocent and pure” ways at all. And there are girls who are called hot whose actions and minds don’t reflect their appearance. Yes, you might actually have to get to know somebody to find out what they’re like beyond their appearance—shocking, I know. But hey, you know wasn’t that the part of the message of Christ? Because He was the savior but was born into a carpenter’s poor family, but people were expecting a rich, powerful king…hmmmm…just a thought.

“And yes I have all of the usual objections, To the miseducation of children who, in tax-exempt institutions, Are taught to externalise blame, And to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right and wrong.” Tim Minchin. So true! This article not only perpetuates the patriarchal and religious desire to place ALL blame on women, it also perpetuates a binary, misunderstanding, and dangerous oversimplification of women. This is evidenced in the comments posted here by so-called “Godly” women, who assume that every woman who objects to “pretty” here dresses like a slut (and are apparently married to bikers…).

How about beautiful? 

A woman should grow out of innocence and into her own unique beauty…which is not a one size fits all thing.  I was one of those pretty innocent girls who thought my purpose in life was to be a wife.  And I got taken. No more innocence for me, but wisdon, self respect, dignity strength and beauty.  Innocent girls watch out!

It’s incredible that you could claim “women’s liberation” has “turned women into a commodity.” In the past the objectification and disempowerment of women was so commonplace that it was invisible. Maintaining the socially expected image of innocence and virtue, which also happened to mean not making waves and accepting one’s position, was the only option for a woman not wishing to lose everything.

A woman being “hot” bothers you because she doesn’t need a man to protect her honor. It bothers you because you’re attracted to hot women but can’t possess them. They are a threat to your masculinity. Innocence is like virginity: an unhelpful illusion that we cling to at our peril. “Hot” and sexually empowered women are an important step toward equality.

I am the General Young president over a half million girls in our churh—-the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.  I have been calling for a return to virtue meaning sexual purity for four years in this position and I. Eli’s e it is making a difference !  What you have written is absolutely correct.  When women don’t realize their impact on the family and society y devaluing themselves,, by be moong objects to be consumed, their divine identity is also consumed as well. But I am seeing young women who know who they are and who are confidently leading others be wise they know that. Irrue and. Hastify are not only attractive but most precious above all. And I believe they will change the world!

I need a new spell check !  Sorry for the typos!
Chastity and virtue lie at the heart of pretty!

You are absolutely right. Pretty is how I want to be viewed and treated and most important how I want my daughters to be treated. Thank you for such an uplifting article. More people should get a hold of this. I am sharing it in my blog. Hope you don’t mind :)

I am a woman, and for many, many years now I have become increasingly irritated at seeing girls and women walking around looking like sluts. It seems like they work hard at trying to “out slut” each other! I’m sure they are not all really of that ilk, but they look like it and often act like it. And the language they use, openly, tells the truth about how they see themselves. No wonder the male population holds them in such low regard. We truly do need to return to a version of “pretty.”

Hear Hear!!!  Your article is spot on and I agree—it is so sad that sexy/hot has overtaken beautiful/pretty.  I am trying to raise my two young daughters that enduring beauty comes from the inside out!

Great article!  Thanks so much for publishing it, it really hits the nail on the head of what is going on in our society.  I know many “pretty” young women, and it has everything to do with their upbringing and the message they get from both father and mother.  I have teen and pre-teen boys.  I want them to date “pretty” girls and marry a “pretty” young woman.  I want them to learn to respect girls and protect them.  I don’t want my boys to have a false view of what a woman should be, which is what they get from the media and world view in general.  And for anyone looking for modest clothing, you can Google modest clothing or I think there is one called Simply Modest or Kneeshorts.com for modest clothing for women and teens.

@Alyssa Anderson:  Good comment.  Women do not need to “settle” for less than God’s best for you.  Few things are more attractive to a Christian man than a godly Christian woman.  A Christian’s relationship with Jesus effects all areas of life including one’s associations, conduct, speech,—and attire.

Dear Athenian_oracle,
You could make a really great Catholic. You’ve already got the great trait of not being lukewarm. :)  We just need your spunk working for the right side. There’s really no use living for the modern world, since we all leave it sooner or later.

In response to if I think we go to heaven wearing earthly clothes? Well, no. But we go to Heaven depending on the choices we made on Earth. And the reason we made those choices. And that includes certain conscious fashion choices. God values the reasons WHY we treat others with kindness. WHY we choose not to harm others. One person may perform these actions for love of God, while another may perform these actions for praise or other selfish reasons. And of course, we’re not unidimensional, so clothing thankfully isn’t the sole factor of our eternal fate. : ) It’s much more complex than that! But if one happens to be fortunate enough to have the option to choose clothing that dignifies the body God gave them and they know that they should, well, their decision can help to bring them closer or to push them farther from God’s designs.

You obviously hold priests to a high standard, as many Catholics do, to be so disgusted at the abuse scandals (as I am). I agree that such atrocities are horrific and sickening, but I challenge you to look at your secular society that you admire so much. Look at our public school and the abuses that occur from teachers in the system. They also have an ethical code to uphold. Or do they? Or what about Protestant religions? You’ll find abuse there as well. The effects Original sin affect everyone. Priests are no exception, although their scandals are all the more saddening due to their state of life. Being that they have direct contact with the body and blood of Christ, priests that have strayed in such a way really twist the stomach. They struggle just as much as anyone else to overcome temptations, possibly more due to their great responsibilities.

Yes. A leather mini skirt has it’s consequences too. As Catholics, we are called to not lead others into occasions of sin. Immodest dress, films, books, etc. have the tendency to make it easier for people to sin (sins of the eyes/mind can be just as bad as sins of action). Of course, the individual person can leave the situation to avoid sinning, but if we care about our fellowmen, we should desire to completely avoid a sand trap they may or may not fall into. It is possible to be attractive, modest and classy all at once. One doesn’t have to wear a bag.

Well, ma’am. Phew. A bit long winded I’m afraid. I’m sure we could have a really fun discussion over a cup o’ tea or some strong espresso. Blogs just don’t seem to allow for such leisure. Hiding behind computers seem to bring out a tactless nature in humans for some reason.

I wish you well and hope with all my heart your life journey brings you closer and closer to the absolute Truth.
I’ll leave you with a little Chesterton.

“To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.”
? G.K. Chesterton

“It [feminism] is mixed up with a muddled idea that women are free when they serve their employers but slaves when they help their husbands.”
? G.K. Chesterton

“I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean.”
? G.K. Chesterton

“Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.”
? G.K. Chesterton

“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
? G.K. Chesterton

Sincerely,
Andrea

I am a priest in a mainline Protestant church and I am horrified by your definition.  The definition of innocence is “an innocent state of naïveté” and ‘naïveté’ is defined as a lack of worldly knowledge.  So by your definition females are only pretty when they lack knowledge of the world.  That is pretty horrifying that a female is considered to only be attractive if she is both physically beautiful and mentally naive.  The definition of a woman’s worth and her beauty includes a knowledge of the world.

@Threadbare - you couldn’t be more correct. This is about men wishing they still had power over women, and blaming the way we dress on the decline of society. I, for one, will never let people like this teach my children about the world! I would prefer that they grow up to be worldly, well-learned, independent people - not childish, fearful, judgemental people who see the world in black and white and make their choices based on a single, highly-edited book written by a specific group of people.

“Our problem is that society doesn’t value innocence anymore, real or imagined.  Nobody aspires to innocence anymore.  Nobody wants to be thought of as innocent, the good girl.  They want to be hot, not pretty.”

I totally disagree ; there are women and men who value innocence and ‘prettiness’ ... they are just a little rarer. However, when they are discovered, these individuals have more self-worth and integrity than most because of understanding and valuing these traits above the petty ‘hot’ that you refer to.

I agree on this, though I received this blog from a friend, as I’m not Catholic myself. I’d just like to add for pretty to go mainstream it would of course have to happen across the dividing lines of all sub-cultures.
There is an opportunity for a young lady to come out singing sweet tunes and reminding girls her age that innocence is priceless and should be held dearly. I believe there’s room to break the trashy stereotype that all these others have taken as they descended down the same path. I hope we see it soon.
Well written article indeed!

We have 3 boys that we are raising to value ‘pretty’ and to have discernment in choosing wisely. We also have a 6-year old girl that we are raising to be pretty. Great article! One of the best I’ve read in a long time.

I think the most meaningful thing I can do to help women in the future is to teach my daughter the difference and encourage her to go against the grain and strive for pretty.  True beauty comes from virtue, not from the projected easy availability of hot.

@ Threadbare - Hot as he defines it is all about projecting easy availability to a man.  When a girl is striving for hot she is pushing her sexuality on a man for his attention.  Hot women are more concerned about men than pretty women.  If they were truly independent than why strive for men’s attention in such a forceful way? Pretty women are the independent ones, they don’t need the attention to feel good about themselves, they feel good about themselves as is. They don’t need men to want them sexually or need to dress provocatively for sex from a man to prove their worth.  Pretty is more worried about being the best them than being the best “man eater”.  I pray my daughters understand that pretty women attract the kind men that don’t smother and use them like hot women do. You project easy to a man and the men who want easy come, you project confidence to a man and men who want confidence come.  You project a sense of self worth and men who want a women who knows her true worth come.

I went salsa dancing this week and was shocked at how the girls were dressed and how they acted. I stuck out like a sore thumb simply because I was wearing too much clothing. It felt like a meat market.

I agree completely that our culture needs to change, but I do have to admit that girls’ self esteem is incredibly fragile and the fact that men seem to only go after scantily clad women does not help to change the situation. Obviously not all men are like this, but there are so many out there that it makes teaching girls conflicting ideas incredibly difficult.

Thanks for shedding light on this problem.

On a side note, “consumable” is not a noun, it is an adjective as -able is an adjective suffix. I would recommend adding a noun after the adjective. (It is the linguist in me)

This thread seems to have run it’s course, but I would like to add something…

First off, there’s a lot of suggestions here that *men* want women to be hot, not pretty.  Absolutely, patently false.  The ones driving the shift from pretty to hot are the *women* (sex-poz feminists), not the men.  Men are just responding in kind. 

A common complaint among women is “Where are all the good men?”  Young adult men are generally portrayed in the popular media as xbox-playing, sports-watching slackers with no ambition that need to “man up” (*gag*). 

Here’s a tip ladies - if you want men to step up and be masculine, you need to be feminine.  Not hard, “sexy” and worldly (think Megan Fox), but pretty-is as pretty-does, attractive ladies (think Donna Reed).  When it comes to settling down and starting a family, men want the latter, not the former.

If we’re only given the option of the former, sure, we’ll sex you up, but as the saying goes, “No rings for sluts”

Thank you for this article. I have a daughter who is Pretty. She’s in college now, but in high school and when she first went to college, she didn’t get dated much. She is very beautiful and talented, but she has strong moral standards and dresses in a modest way. She’s not unfashionable, just modest.  She has had male co-workers tell her she needs to be kissing and making out since she has never kissed She feels kissing is a special thing, not to be given away lightly. She has now started dating more and the boys she attracts are good gentlemen who are fun and don’t pressure her.  I think more young ladies need to be living this way. The world would be a better place.  Yes, Let’s bring Pretty back!

Amen!  I have three pretty girls (12, 16 & 19) They dress modestly, aren’t tattooed, and have no body piercings (just one set of pierced ears) don’t use bad language,behave like young ladies with self respect—And they have friends from church that are like that too.  They understand how girls degrade themselves.  Our girls would rather inspire love and respect than lust.  I will never understand why parents allow their daughters to dress like hookers—especially very young girls.  Last night my 16 & 12 yr old daughter had friends staying over, and it was wonderful to hear the silly laughter as they dressed up in silly outfits to make a goofy video.  Innocent fun is so far removed from so many girls lives.  They date too young and aren’t taught values and self respect.  On dress up day at school, my 16 year old daughter looked beautiful in a long white dress as the Ice queen from Narnia.  One boy said to her—“you’re the only girl not dressed up as a slut”  Boys and men notice these things.

At last someone that sees life as it should be in God’s eye. The Bible teaches of the goodness of women and how we should live. To live less is just falling into the hands of Satans ways. Showing nothing to hold our heads up to, or show honor to our grandparents, parents or a better standard for our children. So we as women have to not buy what the ‘designers’ are making by adjusting with shirts under dresses but insisting that ‘designers’ make clothes that are pretty as well as modest. Stand up and speak up, then morals will improve, not to mention self worth.

Refreshing read…BRAVO! I am recently a divorced father being left with two daughters, 15,17 and a son 19.  My daughters understand the value of “pretty”, they look it, dress it and act it! This being said, they also understand style and trend, not trash. The dress of desire/trash is forbidden in my home. Not their upbringing! Not their mindset either. I am a very proud and very blessed Father. Thank God!

We are more eclectic in our styles and tastes—some can still be pretty and some can be annoyingly hot—I like choice.  Anyway, It’s about time in our society to value the woman’s mind, talents, and strengths…that will come about if we work with change like the most productive revolution (no one was even gunned down!) this country has known:  Women’s revolution.  Men—let’s bring more integrity and responsibility…you’ll bring out the best in women if you do (less single moms).  Thank you.

I think this article makes a great point, “pretty” has gone out of fashion. But it seems like some people are missing the point of the whole “innocence” thing. Like Jesus’ instructions to the disciples, to be “as shrewd as snakes, and as innocent as doves” Matt 10:16, innocence isn’t meant as something negative, nor does it indicate a lack of intelligence. It is a description of purity of soul, a cleanliness of mind. I would consider myself innocent. However, as a young female law student, I am definitely not ignorant, brainless, or useless. Innocence does not mean clueless, it means blameless. And as such, it is attractive in both men and women.

Lector, I’m in agreement with momofthree.  My experience is that most (by most I mean anything over 50%) DO have something on the side: online porn, a girlfriend, a favorite pole dancer at the local club by his office, or the temp who wants to have a little extra fun in the office, or the cleaning lady who wants to make a few extra bucks, for a few examples.  (I was about to take out the cleaning lady example, even though I know of more than one, because it sounds so unlikely.  But then I remembered:  it’s so common that even Seinfeld had an episode about it.  And that was, what, over 15 years ago?  Nothing new.)

My neighborhood is overrun with this problem.  Either the wives are dumped or they try to hang on via their plastic surgeon’s office and personal trainer.  Men almost always want the hotter, younger version (even if they already HAVE a hot, young thing…they always seem to want another one, a different one…).  I see few examples of good, faithful men hanging around and being lifelong husbands and fathers.  And, knowing what I know, I believe those few “good guys” who do stick it out have also had sexual dalliances that their wives have forgiven.  And maybe perpetually do. 

It’s gotten to me so that I think that most sexual marital encounters involve fantasy of some kind, involving someone else.

@Hey Lady:  I understand you can only go by your personal experience.  However, the men you are referring to are not men for whom Jesus is Lord.  Such men are faithful to their marriage vows and family.  This is not to say that both Christian men and women are perfect —since they are not.  It’s only that Men (and women) for whom Jesus is Lord are not content to remain in habitual sin.  Confession (which is to agree with God about sinful behavior) and Repentance (which is to change one’s behavior) is an absolute must.  A Christian man or woman
will be in anguish and pain when they are outside of proper relationship with Christ.  Why would a any woman “settle” for less than God’s best for you?  He does not desire you date nor especially marry such men.

I started this book awhile ago and really liked it, though I didn’t get a chance to finish it.
http://www.amazon.com/Venus-Exile-Rejection-Beauty-Twentieth-century/dp/0684857812
Seems relevant.

Somehow the idea that each age has a certain charm & beauty to it has been lost - to everyone’s detriment. I always wonder what teenagers will end up with when they are dressing & thinking & acting out as mature (& somewhat jaded) sophisticates did in previous eras.  What will they end up doing? Hanging from the ceiling? Or going back to burquas & a guilty conservatism? The taste of MEN seems to have retreated to tarty girls on the borderline of being underage (note how young fashion models are nowadays - not to mention the spread of prostitution of the very young of both sexes…..)IF the MEN were not responding, do you think the WOMEN would be creating that image? It’s time for both sexes to sit down& take a serious look at all this…..Females seem not to be ALLOWED their “innocence” -  as society manages to sully it - What happened to the teenager in chantilly lace? She is out there, to be sure - but hardly a role model -  alas.  I certainly amagainst women finding themselves even sexually, as do males -
But it is a treacherous business.  Perhaps it always has been…All the more reason for encouraging a personal moral code - whether or not it’s religiously based.

hate to be a spoil sport but wonder where you are getting your data and if it is from your neighborhood, golly what kind of neighborhood do you live in.  I really have to disagree with many of your points.  i think there is a lot of hype around sexiness but i am in contact with a large number of young persons and for the most part am impressed with what I see.  I am a background actor so I am not some little old wrinkly that stays at home twiddling my thunbs. Among several causes I support are antibullying and child abuse. As I associate with a population that should be very egotistical and concerned with apperances you would think that I would see what the author is espousing, but to the contrary, I have been impressed with not only the background actors but the main actors.  No one could have been nicer that Kate Hudson and Anne Hathaway in on of the movies I was in and I sat right next to them.  Both were kind, and had a wonderful natural beauty.  So I have to disagree with this article.

It’s discouraging how a woman’s “innocence” is often wrapped up in her “virtue.” As if it is what she doesn’t do makes her a better person. I want to be the kind of person who is known for what I do, rather than what I don’t. As a Daughter of Christ, it is my goal to form my choices not on what will make me more desirable for men, but what will bring goodness into my life and the lives of others. When we teach our daughters that their worth as a woman and attractiveness aren’t dependent on the opinions of men, we’re empowering them an I hope encouraging goodness to enter the world as well.

Pat Archbold
Please close your eyes for a moment, take a deep breath and tell yourself this “If I don’t objectify women, I will start seeing them for who they truly are.” Stop judging every young woman by the actions of a few. Now open your eyes, what you will see is the millions of pretty girls and young women that walk upon this earth every day, each one an individual. The only thing this editorial informed me of is your idea that you can only see women as either two things, good girls or bad girls. Get over it.

Donna glee reim:  you mean this Anne Hathaway?:
http://nadinejolie.com/blog/2010/11/jake-gyllenhaal-and-anne-hathaway-get-naked-for-entertainment-weekly/

I posted a link to that magazine cover precisely because it is a regular magazine cover (meaning, not a “men’s” magazine or anything, just a run-of-the-mill celebutard rag) and most people have seen it. She has, of course, plenty of nude shots from her movies all over the internet.  Classy broad, huh?

I won’t post links to Kate, but a simple google search will turn up liots of cheesecake of her.

You don’t get it: they are part of the problem.  That’s exactly what men want; doesn’t matter how “nice” you think they are.

And don’t get me started on their “natural” beauty.  Thay’re as natural as their surgeons make them look.  Don’t be so naive.

Donna glee reim:  you mean this Anne Hathaway?:
(I tried submitting this comment with a link to a well-known picture of her,, but the link marked it as possible spam, so instead, I’ll just tell you to do a simple google search of “entertainment anne hathaway”)

That magazine cover is a regular magazine cover (meaning, not a “men’s” magazine or anything, just a run-of-the-mill celebutard rag) and most people have seen it. She has, of course, plenty of nude shots from her movies all over the internet.  Classy broad, huh?

I won’t post links to Kate, but a simple google search will turn up liots of cheesecake of her.

You don’t get it: they are part of the problem.  That’s exactly what men want; doesn’t matter how “nice” you think they are.

And don’t get me started on their “natural” beauty.  Thay’re as natural as their surgeons make them look.  Don’t be so naive.

To me, this article is on the wrong track.  Let me see if I can explain without going on and on.  He says about Olivia Newton John, “But her desire to be desired leads her to throw away all that is valuable in herself in the vain hopes of getting the attention of a boy. ” All that is valuable in herself? He is putting way too much value on what is really his aesthetic preference for women or in other words, what he finds attractive.  He even says that this “projected innocence” really had nothing to do with the reality of the character of the woman. Scripture emphasizes modesty and character for women to be truly beautiful in the ways that God desires.  For women, the heart is what is important and the proper behavior is an outflow of that. 

Also, his hints that the way women dresses dictates male behavior takes away msn’s responsibility before God for his own behavior.  Scripture lays full responsibility at the man’s feet for his thoughts and treatment of women.  Job said he would “make a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully upon a woman.”  The Bible says,  “guard your heart with all diligence” and to “think on whatever is lovely and pure”  The problem is not a problem of a woman’s clothing or “projection,” but a problem in the man’s heart.  The man may feel he has permission to let that part of his heart show due to the woman’s projected image, but the problem still isn’t the woman’s projection.

Of course, “pretty” (although I think that a far better term to use is modest) over hot will certainly be my aesthetic preference for my daughters as well if God should bless me with some, but I think that it is really important to be careful in how we help them understand why, and I don’t think that this article does a good job of that.  In fact, as a woman who by most cultural standards dresses modestly, this article made me feel objectified and very uncomfortable as a woman.

I think that he is well intentioned in his article, but misguided.  I know that he means well as do many of the commenters here who are in his support, which can be a real obstacle to seeing one’s real heart or understanding how one is wrong.  I pray that you can receive my input honestly and with an open heart to hear how God may speak to you through it. 

Peace.

Bravo on this observation! I couldn’t agree more. Women have a responsibility to urge and help along the nobility of men. Virtuous women are the key inspiring men to elevate themselves to being worthy of such women. Proverbs 31:10 “Who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies…”

Preach it, brutha!

I would much rather be considered pretty, beautiful, or good looking over hot & sexy. I’m 22 and I find it degrading when referred to as hot or sexy. I try on a regular basis to let the important women in my life know they are beautiful or pretty.

I’m disappointed that you’re trying to link women’s liberation to the commodification of women.

It’s really supposed to do the opposite, teach women to be what they want to be for *themselves* - not to attract me, or appease society.  Don’t blame women for still getting suckered in my media.  Especially when you don’t seem interested in calling men out for getting suckered into the same thing.

All this does it show that there is still work to be done.  But the answer is not to be more ‘pretty’ and ‘innocent’ for men.

Morals in cultures have varied for thousands of years in every society and culture. They change with every generation and will continue to always do so. We all have our independent and taught versions as to what is “pretty”. Personally, I still believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That formula works for me. Pretty.beauty.honor.truth.love.hate.greed all come from inside a person. They determine what they allow “out” of themselves.

I think that another way to describe the innocence in this piece is virtue.  A virtuous woman’s price is far above rubies.  This virtue can be found in women whether they are young or old, mothers, married, single.  This virtue radiates from their eyes and heart, and enhances her physical traits.  Virtue combined with happiness is magnetic.

Modesty is an aspect of virtue, and a woman who practices virtue of heart, body, and mind will seek to be modest in her dress.  Modesty shows that a woman respects her body, mind, and spirit.  Good men actually prefer a woman who is modest in dress, and seeks to make herself attractive in modest ways.

Language is an aspect of virtue.  A virtuous woman does not use coarse language, nor does she use language to gossip, abuse, or treat others with disrespect.  Today’s culture of “telling it how it is” and confrontation has belittled the virtue of a gracious manner and a forgiving heart.

Last summer I was in the airport, and bored, so I was people-watching.  I noticed that there were any number of hot young women, many in tank tops, shorts, etc.  Probably college students going home.  There were also large numbers of women who were not, technically, hot.  They were usually a little older, and wearing more clothing.

I also noticed that the hot girls were, well, alone.  The non-hot older women were usually with children and a husband.

Whatever hotness is for, keeping a husband obviously does not require it.

Why is this article and every single comment following judging women (and even men)? Where exactly do any of you get the authority to judge anyone?! I thought Jesus accepted even prostitutes. I thought appearances were deceiving. I thought God was the only one who could judge us because he is the only one who see us as we truly are! I guess I thought wrong looking at how opinionated everyone here is.

Kathryn:  The responsibility of women for the morality of men, beautiful as it sounds, turns in practice as an excuse to blame women for everything to go wrong.

If the Chruch were serious about the ability of women to set the moral tone, they would give the women the tools: the authority.  Instead it tells them to obey their husbands, and frowns on their becoming self supporting (as with careers).  Now how can the powerless one in the relationship (economically dependent and forced to obey) be the one to fix things?  Either you give us the authority - like telling men “this woman will set the moral tone, so better do as she says”, or stops asking us to do what you make impossible.

But it is never about the moral tone. It is having someone to blame.

This whole argument saddens me;  women and men, boys and girls, being divvied up into groups of “good,” or “bad” (pretty, hot, whatever), based on how they look.  If you’re reading this and you’re white, under fifty, and have spent all of your life in the continental U.S. you and I (and all who fit this description), had similar experiences in our formative years. (With a wide nod given to differences in parochial schooling, home schooling, large cities or small towns).  We were all subject to the same cultural influences.  We watched the same t.v. shows and the same movies; the same after school specials.  My point is that there is much black and white thinking, and not a lot of tolerance for differing attitudes and opinions.  I too am tempted to make judgements on how people are, based on how they look. On my good days, I remember to withhold my judgement.  On my best days, I am rewarded for withholding this judgement.  I have been so rewarded by making friends with people who way different then I choose to.  Rewarded with a tender feeling, that I believe to be Grace, when I suspend judgement, offer a smile, and receive a smile in return.  It is too easy, too simplistic, too unfair, to judge women (or men), on how they look.  It is especially damaging to tell women they need to aspire to be “pretty.”  Isn’t it hard enough growing up, without additional pressure (from middle aged adult men no less?), telling girls to be “pretty”?  I know I’m rambling a bit here—reading through all the previous comments have my thoughts and emotions swirling.  I will close with this—it does seem kind of creepy to me that a man is worried about the relative purity or “prettiness” of young girls. Might be less creepy if he’d said it in relation to his own daughters, or to girls he knows.  As stated though, it has a voyeuristic quality to it that again, I find just a tad creepy.

Mr. Archbold…thank you for your insight. I, as a mother of three daughters feel strongly and have taught them this principle that beauty is what you become and the way you choose to act and dress shows who you think you really are. We live here in the UK temporarily and at Christmas time I wanted to visit Harrods and see their reknowned windows. I was disgusted to see the models dressed so scantily and positioned in such ways as to be an item… crawling on the floor… in cages and in other positions not at all looking as someone to respect but something to lust after. The world teaches us to devalue women and men…but there are some of us who teach, even if it be in our own homes, that we are all children of God and thus sons and daughters of God. We are of great value and should therefore act and dress as such. Thank you for your refresshing viewpoint. I will pass this forward.

Actually men play one of the biggest parts in it because they’re taught by instinct to see us as sex obbjects. Sorry.

The problem is that as soon as men use women to inspire men to be something themselves, to hold women as an ideal, women have been made a commodity.  So called feminine traits are no better than so called masculine traits.  What men are looking for in a women should not be a contrived innocence and purity (not that this should be desired), especially when men themselves do not tend to hold the same standard, but rather a partner, an equal, another human being, not an ideal.  Women do not exist to make men feel better, to be put on a fake pedestal, to inspire men to be “men” (which is a cultural standard that changes through time and location anyway). 
Women are co-created in God’s image, and reflect the Trinity equally with men, thus should be treated as equals.
And a final note, per a comment, women do not have the moral authority. Humans are evil, but for the grace of Christ.  Do not turn your women into an object, an ideal, a commodity.

I agree with the article 100%.  I also believe that we all play a part in how women are treated. Because of the changes is social paradigm both men and women, boys and girls are being taught a different song.  the feminist movement has not only debased women to be hot consumables it has taught men that they are scoundrels, bums and predators.  I pray that we all can return to the pretty; at least fight to bring it back.  Then both genders can live up to their true potential! Princesses and Knights in shining armor Both with self dignity!

:/ Yes let’s transfer symptoms from the worse more objectifying one to the less noticeable yet equally disappointing one. Society’s perception that women need to be protected is wrong and degrading. What really need’s to be dealt with is the cause… Women are equal to men honestly and though the world will never view it that way which is sad, the situation can still be bettered.

I think the author is preaching to the choir with this article, given the forum. However, I applaud the few feminist voices objecting to some of the extremely disturbing assumptions in this dreadful article.

I think looking at the history of fashion can be of some help here. When was “pretty” a virtue and what has this word meant over the decades? When did the word “hot” come into vogue? Is the word “hot” antithetical to pretty or is it just the lingo currently used to indicate general attractiveness? He could make the same complaint against “cool, groovy, foxy, etc.” The first thing that comes to my mind is the twenties, bloomers and those scandalous girls showing their legs and ankles. Or how about those foxy go-go girls? Now our standards have changed, so it is ok, even in many conservative religious communities, to show our ankles. Instead, it may be upper arms, above the knees, or the chest that is considered immodest. Anyone who pays attention to the history of fashion will see how clothing changes to fit the times, and different things are found to be attractive, whether it is a bustle, poodle skirt, or corset. In my opinion, this same article could have been written at any point in history, just using different vocabulary. The values of chastity, modesty, and such are not new, and complaints about how women choose to dress are not new. I wouldn’t get too upset about current modes of fashion. Wait a few years and the girls will be back in eyelet blouses and prarie skirts and the author can relax for another year or so until fashion changes again. I’m not even going to get into the commodities argument. *shudder*

I think this article makes a great point! I also feel (and this goes with just about every moral issue) that there is increasing polarization happening in our society. Fastly fading are the days of middle ground. So yes there is an ever-increasing majority of females that are pursuing the “hot” route as defined by the article, which perpetuates or attracts an ever-increasing amount of males to this persuasion. However, there are also many more that are recognizing this trend for what it is; a degradation to our society. And consequently there is also a growing population of women seeking to reject societie’s fascination with “hot” and instead be drawn to being “pretty” as defined by the article. By the same respect there are many men out seeking for “pretty” vs “hot”. Because of the increasing polarization happening in our society both groups are growing, but as has always been the case it is easier for men and women to give in to natural desires than put restraints (based off of morals) on their behavior. It used to be to stand out and be different you needed to get a tattoo or some crazy piercing. Now a-days those who stand out and are unique are those with no tattoos and no piercings (or only one in each ear for girls). There is something inherently beautiful though about women who are virtuous and innocent that almost every man deep down is attracted to. I like to call it the “glow”. Women who are “pretty” as defined by this article have an undeniable glow about them that is undeniably attractive. Perfect example: I recently read an article that name BYU as the number 1 rated college campus for attractive women. This coming from a campus of conservative LDS students that abide by a code of modesty and chasity. And it’s true. I’ve walked through that campus many times and there are a lot of attractive, “pretty” women there. They just have the “glow”, and it is undeniable.

Great piece. Thank you. I first read about it at The Spearhead which is a Men’s Rights site.

Someone here wrote: “Actually men play one of the biggest parts in it because they’re taught by instinct to see us as sex obbjects. Sorry.”

—- Reality check: Stop blaming men and portraying men as hungry sex-crazed wolves, and women as poor little victim sheep. Women who choose feminism, the gender-raunch culture, and the desire by many modern women to embrace their lower animal nature and to turn away from their higher spiritual nature play parts in this way beyond anything men can possibly do. Most men, especially age 25+, are increasingly disgusted with modern western women. The marriage strike by men keeps increasing and there is increasingly also a dating strike by men. If men were just interested in easy sex those trnds would not be occurring. Based on your thinking, you might as well be honest and blame God for creating men with having a strong sex-drive activated through visualization.

Sorry, I don’t see how it’s “40 years of women’s liberation” that turns women into a commodity. . . it’s only the men who can’t accept them as human being with a right to dress any way they wish who have done that.

Boy he hit it right on!

This articulates really well the what and the why of what I’ve been saying to women. In the legitimate pursuit of rights that our foremothers did not have, women have lost focus as to why we needed those rights. Women have debauched themselves thinking that is freedom. Restraint is freedom. Prudence is freedom. Chastity is freedom. Faith is freedom.

This is so true. Being the “good girl” is now looked down upon. I would know. All of us girls really do need to bring “pretty” back :)

When i was young,I always looked up to my mother and what she was.I wanted to be like her a mama taking care of us and daddy.I have always felt like that was my “job.” Got Married when i was 16 married Had my first child when i was 17. 10 months after.I have had 6 children in less than 10 years.It was i guess the hardest job a woman can have. But my husband loved me so much and still does.I am still as “pretty” after 53 yrs of marriage cooking ,cleaning and taking care of my good kids and my dream boy and he still thinks i am “pretty”.I have had a rough life at times but i would do it all over again,but thats what i have always wanted as well as my choice.I feel “Pretty” and my children treat me wonderful.So girls Sex is not where it is but,Love can be found with out being hot.By 1 man “pretty” girl

What an awful article.

“It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity”

Are you kidding? What about women deserving to make as much as men for doing the same job as a man? What about having the opportunity to want to work if you want or stay home with your children if you so desire and are financially able?

I am a Christian and these kind of articles make me ashamed of how people use the Bible to twist their own agendas. All of the sudden lust, sexuality, and problems are faults of women and how they dress. You should be ashamed.

What an awful article.

“It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity”

Are you kidding? What about women deserving to make as much as men for doing the same job as a man? What about having the opportunity to want to work if you want or stay home with your children if you so desire and are financially able?

@Jed - please don’t confuse sex and gender - sex is a biological difference, gender is a social construct. @debbie - your comment reeks of ignorance. Please read up on feminism before claiming to be in a position to critique it’s so-called downfall. @Amy - you hit the nail on the head! Too many people in this forum would happily tell their daughters that their self-worth is entirely wrapped up in their virginity. What these same people don’t realize is that they are burdening their daughters with the same problem, regardless of if they teach them to “value” prettiness or hotness. However, many people here are too blind to see this and instead go on to post asenine comments about some slut they saw some time and how much seeing that slut bothered them. So much for “judge not lest ye be judged” - hypocrites!

I enjoyed reading this. And I find it to be true. I have two daughters. When I look at them, I can see the clear innocence on their faces, in their eyes, the way they smile and laugh and play together. And one day…that will be gone in lieu of their attempts to be something they think is equal to more than what they already are. I hope though, that they can look past all of the glitz and see themselves. Funny that you mentioned that noone talks about girls men date and girls men marry. I also have a son who will begin dating soon. This very topic has come up in conversation. I hope that I can steer him to date certain girls and marry the right girl, based off of her real beauty and not the fakeness that is makeup and clothing. And I certainly wouldn’t mind the girl being innocent, so to speak.

YAHOO!! Someone feels the same way I do and is articulate enough to put in in writing!! Pat Archbold is my hero!

@Extremely Concerned:  Your comment regarding “Do not judge others” is a gospel passage used often.  It is important, however, to not confuse judging with “impression.”  In the case of this thread, an 18 year old woman wearing a tight halter top to church is inappropriate.  Her morality is not being judged, but her common sense or lack of parental training can be judged.  She has created a bad impression,—but one that can be corrected next time.  If a man fails to dress appropriately for a job interview, he also will leave a bad impression and thus is judged poorly relative to the competition.  Jesus said “Ye shall know them by their fruit” —which means the impression which someone creates or demonstrates.  Judgment itself is not necessarily condemnation of someone.

The arguments of this article are sincere but problematic. The “Men don’t marry hot” argument is weak without statistical proof, as personal experience can very a good deal (have you ever visited a singles over 40 dating website, Christian or otherwise? I think the hot vs. pretty ratio would work against your argument). Not to mention that even if some men would more readily defend pretty women over hot women (which calls into question their grasp of Chrsitian ethics), these pretty women are only being protected against other men, meaning blaming women (the victims of another’s choice to harm someone) for being harmed is pretty sick, no matter what their wearing. “Pretty” isn’t going anywhere either; there are plenty of pretty girls out there, bud. Keep in mind also that what is defined as “hot” has changed alot over the last 100 years but it’s always been there, especially in the media. And if anything threatened the dismantling of human civilization on planet earth in that time, I think atom bombs or globalization weigh a little heavier in that race than miniskirts. Peace.

I’m not Catholic, but I totally agree with this article. I’m sixteen and my church’s standards for dress are really great. I don’t wear dresses, skirts, or shorts that are above the knee. I also always wear sleeves and don’t wear anything that has a provocative neckline. You can still be stylish, even though it is really hard to find good clothes that still hold up to my standards. Trust me, the prom dress selection is a nightmare. The root of it is that I respect myself enough not to dress for anyone else’s idea of hot or sexy or pretty or whatever you want to call it. My body was a gift from God, and I will respect it and treat it like one. In the end, I don’t care how many guys I ‘get’. What matters is that I attract the right kind of guy. And virtue is important to me. My mantra is Proverbs 31. These are my choices and they are nobody else’s fault.

The author would have done well to further define “innocence.” Here is how I’ve defined it for myself: “without guile or ulterior motive.” So how would the “message of appearance” be different if women (all people, actually, but as the article is about women I’ll focus on that as well) chose to dress neatly and be well-groomed, in such a way that best portrayed themselves honestly? When women dress to “be hot” there is an ulterior motive - at least implied if not genuine. If your motive is to entice, entrap, excite, or seduce, then you’re not being “innocent.” Appearances to send a message, whether we like it or not. So… what message do we, as individuals, wish to send?

I practice law. I am a woman. I do not wear tight jeans or spike heels in the courtroom, I assure you. The problem some well-meaning and decent men have is that they cannot imagine that nice “pretty” “innocent” girls are ever mistreated. I found that innocence, which, let’s face it, in the young usually equates to ignorance, lead to mistreatment by lying opportunists. Write a column about that, Mr. Archbold. As a married Christian professional woman, I find the comments on here about “feminism” to be comedic and sad. It’s easy to criticize “feminism” as the downfall of moral culture when you simply define feminism that way. Saying women should be treated as adults rather than the property of their parents or husbands doesn’t really seem so radical to you people does it? Sure, when people are given freedom a certain number of them will abuse it. This is not confined to the female gender.  I see young women who act without self-respect and I see young men mistreat young women who did nothing to “deserve” mistreatment. Write a column about that.

I agree that people, including women, would do well to cultivate self-respect and dignity.  I think it would have been more helpful to me as a young person, however, if the adults presuming to teach me would have put more value on being an intelligent and honorable adult and less value on preserving my sexual purity by denying me information about human sexuality behavior and by dictating what I wore.

I practice law. I am a woman. I do not wear tight jeans or spike heels in the courtroom, I assure you. The problem some well-meaning and decent men have is that they cannot imagine that nice “pretty” “innocent” girls are ever mistreated. I found that innocence (which, let’s face it, in the young usually equates to ignorance) could lead to mistreatment from lying opportunists. Write a column about that, Mr. Archbold. As a married Christian professional woman, I find the comments on here about “feminism” to be comedic and sad. It’s easy to criticize “feminism” as the downfall of moral culture when you simply define feminism that way. The feminist notion women should be treated as adults rather than the property of their parents or husbands doesn’t really seem so radical to you people does it? Sure, when people are given freedom a certain number of them will abuse it. This is not confined to the female gender.  I see young women who act without self-respect and I see young men mistreat young women who did nothing to “deserve” mistreatment. Write a column about that.  I agree that people, including women, would do well to cultivate self-respect and dignity.  I think it would have been more helpful to me as a young person, however, if the adults teaching me had put more value on being an intelligent and honorable adult and less value on preserving my sexual purity by denying me information about human sexuality behavior and by dictating what I wore. This “if only girls would realize that nice guys really do want nice girls” line of thinking is understandable, perhaps even well-meaning, but does nothing to improve the dignity or success of relationships between men and women.

“i’m bringin pretty back, yaa”

Good for you!  I am saddened by the same thing.  I am hoping that the tide changes at some point.  I certainly am trying to raise my 16 yo daughter differently than current trends.  Where will it all end?...

Something else many of us discuss & are disgusted with are the wedding dresses chosen these years. Weddings are also a reflection of a supposedly mature girl.  Yet, knowing they are to be standing before a Priest/pastor, elderly Grandparents & family, friends, children, permanent video/cameras, GOD, they choose to wear something sleeveless/neckless - showing off their chests. Many say they are embarrassed by brides today (not to mention younger generations who show cleavage like it’s nothing, even tho’ it only evokes one emotion, which ISN’T purity)  I blame many Mom’s & Dad’s who don’t SPEAK UP & instill in their children the virtues the Lord expects. YES, even today. The Lord sees & hears ALL of us THRU’ all of us. He said “Be Holy, as I am Holy”. Everyone needs to not only get back to what you term as “pretty” here…but back to our Creator & His instructions for us to live by..in order to HONOR Him.

whoever is in charge of keeping track of what articles are posted on this site, please dont ever delete this. ive bookmarked this, so i can read this whenever im feeling bad about the fact that i dont have those ideal hips or the perfect chest or flawless skin that all those ‘hot’ girls have. please dont ever delete this. id rather be pretty than hot.

I’m a good Christian girl. I was raised to wear shorts and skirts to cover my knees, at the very least to cover my chest, and to wear shirts that completely cover my shoulders. I dress cleanly and simply, while still finding ways to remain in style, and, well, not look like a nun. I was taught to look for a man who thinks I’m beautiful even without showing every inch of my skin to him. It was difficult at times finding clothing that met my standards, and many adjustments were often made and many layers were often worn, all so that I could hopefully try to look “pretty”. My lifetime of striving, and it worked. I have a man who tells me every day how beautiful I am, even before my makeup and hair are done. He’s seen me in baggy sweats, but still tells me I’m gorgeous. I don’t NEED to make myself more attractive to him, but I want to, and that makes all the difference. He’s a gentleman. He reminds me that I am a beautiful daughter of God every day. I wouldn’t have found him if I dressed myself the way the world wants me to. I’m excited to say that we’ll be married in the summer. The next difficult task is finding a modest wedding dress! This all being said, I’m so grateful that there are others out there who are going through the same struggles, and that someone was able to write this so eloquently. Thank you, writer, and to those reading, Endure to the End!

What a pathetic and thinly veiled piece of modern day misogyny.  This is little more than an updated version of the ‘did you see the way she was dressed? she was asking for it!’ argument.

Women are treated as commodities because they are ‘hot’ instead of ‘pretty’? Bull. F@cking. Sh*t. The author’s attempt to cover his gender’s hind end with the aside “Of course men play a role in this as well” is laughable.  Men that treat women as commodities will treat women as commodities no matter how they dress or present themselves. 

From personal experience I can tell you that those type of men will simply see innocence as a challenge.  Such a man simply will see that ‘pretty’ girl with her air of innocence and mystery as a test of their ability to make a conquest and the hot girl as a willing accomplice.  To them, any woman is a commodity regardless of how she dresses or carries herself.

It must be rough being a man and not having a choice in how you treat women…

As a Christian woman who practices and values modesty, who passionately dislikes the term “hot”, and who *hated* the ending of Grease—I have to say that I am disappointed by this article.

Firstly, we could go into the condescending tone of the terms “pretty” and “innocent”, but for the sake of brevity, I will assume these to have only the best connotations possible.

With that said, “pretty” is not dying. Lots and lots of women do not enjoy dressing immodestly. Many of us bear the inconvenience and frustration of trying to find modest, attractive clothing in an over-sexed society. Yet the article talks as if we have gone extinct altogether, reinforcing the accusation that always comes against us: if a woman wants to get attention, she has to let it all hang out. The modest ones are invisible. This of course is no reason to become immodest, but it severely undermines the author’s point: If men really universally preferred “pretty” “innocence”, they would actually see those of us who are.

The fact that the author bemoans the loss of an appearance of innocence—even though it did not match the internal life—betrays how this article fails to address the core issues in any sort of way. It’s not about what women *are*, it’s about how they *look*. And of course, women are bound and obligated to look a certain way, simply by virtue of being born female (while no corresponding burden is placed upon men). And because how a woman looks is the most important thing about her, of course this becomes a huge screaming deal. I really hope that this was not the author’s intention, but it is where the language of his logic leads.

The line “That special combination of beauty and innocence, the pretty inspires men to protect and defend it” is fraught with problems. Firstly, it seems to outright call women an “it”, a thing, nothing more than the embodiment of their beauty and innocence. Secondly, the alternative to this statement is troubling. Does an immodest woman inspire men (Christian men) to harm her? Does it inspire them to throw her to the wolves? If a Christian man sees an immodestly dressed, drunk woman stumbling down the alleyway, should his reaction be, “What a slut, I wouldn’t be surprised if some creep raped her. She’s asking for trouble.” Or should it be to wait with her for a taxi to make sure she gets home safely?

A masculinity that only wants to protect “pretty” women is a lousy example of masculinity, if you ask me.

The line soon following, “Pretty is cherished. Hotness, on the other hand, is a commodity.  Its value is temporary and must be used.  It is a consumable,” also reduces women to a thing, their vices incarnate, and seems to condone the idea that it is justifiable when such women are used and abused and consumed. Women dress immodestly for all sorts of reasons besides snaring helpless hormonal men. A lot of them have been sexually abused from childhood. A lot of them have been told that their body is their only value. A lot of them have never learned their dignity, worth, and potential in the eyes of God. It is cruel and unfair to castigate a woman for dressing in accordance with the prevailing culture without seeking to offer compassionate love that can look her in the eye, no matter what she’s wearing, see the real *person* (not commodity) behind the “hot” facade, love her with a pure heart, and call her forth into dignity and grace.

Finally—I know the author is referring to the character she played, but I was disturbed that his language was, “I hated the ‘hot’ Olivia Newton John and felt sorry for her….” Hatred leaves no room for feeling sorry for the person. As I said above, I also hated the ending of Grease, and felt like it was wrong that it would glorify the girl going for the guy who treated her like a jerk the whole way through the play, overriding her own nature to secure him. But that is WAY different from saying, “I hated this person once she became ‘hot’”. That is, by definition, open misogyny. Jesus ministered to *prostitutes*, in perfect purity and self-control, BEFORE they got saved and cleaned up their act. If He hated them for being hot, they never would have known His redemption.

We women are more than what we look like. Behind every set of clothes is a real human being with real personality, intelligence, worth, history, scars, triumphs, strengths and weaknesses. To have an entire article painting us all with one broad brush and telling us how we should dress based on men’s lust issues and an admittedly false public image from 60 years ago is frustrating, to say the least.

Again I reiterate: I value modesty. We need more of it in the Church. Dressing “hot” (using the author’s definition) is indeed demeaning to ourselves as women. But this article spectacularly misses the point of modesty on many, many levels.

Jennifer, Anna and Jen, I agree with your points. Suggesting women should portray themselves as innocents puts them in a disempowered position.

Very well said.  I would only disagree on one point.  There are women and girls today striving for “pretty”.  They may be few compared to the outspoken others, but they are out there.

This is exactly what I preach to my daughter.  Boys like to date “hot” and marry “pretty.”  While stunningly pretty and popular, my daughter is sought after as a friend but not as a girlfriend because her conservative standards are very well known.  In fact, her religion is her nickname for many guys on campus.  It gets her down sometimes, but, in general I think she “gets” it more with each passing day.  She’s beginning to understand that hotness fades but pretty never does.  And she sees that “prettiness” allows someone to get to know her personality and her mind and her talents and her hopes and her dreams, etc.  Thanks!

Thank you so much for your encouragement. I’m 24 and have always tried to project a respectful image, despite the trends around me. It is sometimes difficult to remember my worth when society seems to value hotness over virtue. You are right on, and I hope more women will realize this and live by it.

“Of course men play a part in this as well…”
How absurd to propose that standards for women’s behavior are now or have ever been determined by women. The notion that women are now treated as objects in a way unimaginable in the past? Throughout all of history women have been treated strictly as commodities, and this much lamented women’s liberation movement is what finally strove to change all that. Obviously, it has not entirely succeeded, but to mourn its happening because the result is that some women began choosing what they wanted rather than what they were told to want? Please.
The author demonstrates the continuing pervasiveness of female oppression by arguing that women should want to be pretty because “most men prefer pretty over hot.” If you believe women should be pretty, by all means pursue a pretty woman, but don’t attempt to force your preferences on all women or project the blame for cultural sexualization primarily on the female gender.

Pretty is lacking in our church architecture as well.  I visited a good friend in California this summer - we went to Sunday Mass at her church in Dana Point - A new church in the semi-round with breathtaking views behind the altar of the harbor beyond - it must be spectacular for evening masses with the sun setting over the ocean. It is a good space - for a new church building - many of which seem to be designed along the “fellowship hall” model. I was even wondering at times if the architects were Catholic.
As for the “pretty” - It is an all white interior. White walls with no statues, I don’t even remember the stations of the cross as being prominent… I was struck each time I was at a service in the building by how amazing it is to have come from touring the beautifully decorated mission churches all around and be in a place so absolutely devoid of decoration… It seems as if we, as Catholics, are afraid of glorifying God by decorating his house with anything remotely “pretty” anymore… Perhaps our youth are unfamiliar with beauty and art - and “hot” has crept in to fill the void. Churches used to be ordinary people’s art museums - “pretty” was woven to the fabric of daily life in the beauty of the places we inhabited. Now all of the “pretty” churches are museums… (an over reaching simplification - to make a point)
A traditional architect’s lament.

I have a radical idea: screw hot, -and- pretty, and ladies, stop trying to exist for male entertainment altogether!

I am appalled by the assumption in this article that women can only pick between choices to exist for male entertainment, and reading between the lines here (albeit not too far between the lines) there is another assumption that as a woman ages, shes not what the author defines as pretty, because that “innocent” look fades.

Another assumption is that women should be ok with having their -own- personal power taken from them, in order to be weak princesses in need of a male to “protect” them.

Then the author goes so far as to say what “most men” prefer. Ludicrous coming from a person who has such a bent bias toward the whole topic anyway. Individuals prefer different things: some men prefer bbws, some men prefer women who have a severe look, even a subculture look because they like to see a woman who looks ‘tough’ or ‘odd’ .. etc,. the list goes on.

I find the author narcissistic as he assumes that hes even entitled to tell women how they should all conform to please what -he- believes is the correct ideal.

@Jen L on Monday, Jan 9, 2012 3:44 AM (EST):  Your use of graphic imagery is not required, but it does indicate your perspective to this primarily Catholic/Christian/LDS audience.  A man who lives by “true” Christian-biblical principles does not view “Hot” - “Pretty” or “Innocent” women as a challenge to score another touchdown.  It’s this kind of worldview that produced the Martin Scorsese film “The Last Temptation of Christ.”  Clearly, there is no doubt in your mind that Jesus had an ulterior motive when He asked the Samaritan woman at the well for a drink of water.  And btw,—to all ladies, (Hot, Pretty, Plain or otherwise), women who use foul language are not attractive to men.  As a Christian man, even we men do our best to avoid other men who use such language.  It doesn’t “fit” who we are in Christ.

I don’t want to be pretty or hot, then. I’d like to be a Woman of God, which is a much better aspiration. (As in, “She is a Woman of God!” I’d like people to see me as an educated, hardworking, Christlike person who does what God wants me to do.

@BackToPretty - Guess what!? Not all weddings acknowledge God! Not everyone gets married in a church! Why don’t you crawl out from under that rock you’re living under, open your eyes, and become acquainted with the 21st century?

@Lector - a common (and weak) dialectical tactic is to claim any outliers are not “truly” part of one’s own affinity group. If you really think that all religious men think and conduct themselves as you have described above, then you really are quite delusional.

Thank you for this post.  I agree with you about the musical Grease…when all of my friends were talking about how much they loved this movie, I was always alone in saying that it literally would make me grieve.  I agree, we need to get back to “pretty” instead of “hot”...but most of all, let the heart attitude be what shines through and attracts others.  thank you for a great post.

Absolutely fabulous.  I couldn’t agree more.  You put into words what I have seen and felt from our society as a whole.  In raising my little girls I hope to clearly teach them the distinction between whether they want to be seen as being “pretty” or “hot.”  Thank you, thank you!

@athenian_oracle:  Your continuing obatacle is that your worldview is not a biblical worldview.  Do Catholic and Christian men and women sin?  Of course they do.  The problem is that you see no difference between your athiestic worldview of all people and that of those who aspire to follow Christ daily.  You say I am delusional.  The great many in the audience here would say your bitterness has fueled your own deception by Satan.  “As a man (or woman) thinketh in their heart, so is he (or she).  Proverbs 23:7.  To sterotype all men as you and Jen L do—you have my sympathy.  Proverbs 53:1 says: “The fool hath said there is no God.”  Your countenace would appear far more attractive to men *and all people* were you to know the risen Lord personally in your life.

“Once upon a time you would hear girls talk about kind of women men date and the kind they marry.  You don’t hear things like that anymore.”

Maybe this is because some girls and women are slowly beginning to define their worth by something OTHER than how men define their worth.

Here’s a question for you Pat and all the other Leave It To Beaver people commenting on this post:
What if a women is neither “pretty” or “hot”?  How are they being totally dismissed in this discussion?  As if women to exist, they have to be some sort of attractive.  I believe it is safe to say that most women do not fall into either the hot or pretty category that is being so archaically defined.  Is woman only visible when she is not ugly?  Many women are stereotypically ugly as are many men.  And yet numerous from all three classes are intelligent, mature, compassionate, strong and powerful.  And many more are not.

So really, why in the world does this kind of distinction of outward appearance matter?  It seems absurd to even have to say that the really important human qualities cut cross-sectionally along these ridiculous boundaries exhaustively discussed on this page.  Get over yourselves and TALK ABOUT SOMETHING REAL!

While I wholeheartedly agree with your article, I also agree that we, “females”, are not the only ones responsible for the way we are looked at. Maybe a subsequent article (if not already published) would be appropriate in appealing to males to look for the “pretty” in females and then to help defend and protect the survival of “pretty”.

Males need to be accountable for their role in objectifying women as well. Not to look only for the “hot girl” who will spend the night with them, but the pretty, smart girl who will spend her life with them!!

Carley Maxwell

@ Lector
Thank you for letting me know what all Christian men do and do not want, think, and find attractive.  My own experiences derived from 32 years of churchgoing obviously has been rendered void by your statements.  I forgot that all Christian men were perfect and not a single one would ever view a woman as a challenge or score.  If only we women could catch up!  Oh, and thank you for explaining to me how I feel about Jesus.  I would never have known how I felt about his motives until you, a man, came along and told me.  When I wrote “Men that treat women as commodities will treat women as commodities no matter how they dress or present themselves” I didn’t realize that I was talking about ALL men - including Jesus!  My mistake.

A man who lives by “true” Christian-biblical principles does not view women as a commodity, period.  It’s this kind of worldview that produced misogyny, abuse and the subjugation of women.  Clearly, there is no doubt in your mind that Jesus would have judged pretty women to be better than sexy women despite his teachings of love and acceptance of all sinners.  And btw,—to all men, (Hot, Handsome, Plain or otherwise), men who view women as commodities – be them ‘hot’ commodities to be used up or ‘pretty’ commodities to be married - are not attractive to women.  As a Christian woman, I try my best to avoid men who view women as commodities.  It doesn’t ‘fit’ who I am in Christ. 

@ All the women who are talking about teaching their daughters to choose ‘pretty’ over ‘hot’ so that they do not become a commodity to be used up… how about teaching them to not be a commodity at all?  By telling them how much better it is to be pretty because good Christian men prefer to date and marry pretty girls (assuming all Christian men are the same.  Tip: they aren’t!) you are simply telling them to be one kind of commodity instead of another!  In essence you are saying that sexy women are rentals and pretty women get purchased – either way you are treating women like something to be bought and paid for.  Why can’t we focus on the root of the problem – viewing women as ANY kind of commodity.  This view of women is just plain wrong and by teaching our daughters how to dress to be seen by men as the marrying type rather than the sexy type just reinforces the stereotype.  Don’t teach her ‘how to snag a man by being pretty instead of hot’.  Teach your daughters to be self-reliant.  Teach her that she has worth as a person – not just as someone’s future wife.  Teach her that she deserves respect and that her value isn’t measured by how some man views her.  Teach her to truly love herself and if/when she chooses to marry she’ll end up with a man who truly loves her as well.  Chances are he’ll think she is both ‘hot’ and pretty.

@Lector - Jen L and I do not “sterotype all men” - your constant mis-reading of the “group” which I am criticizing is evidence of YOUR narrow views. I do not believe that ALL men categorically undervalue women, but historically, there has been a patriarchal overtone that has done exactly that. Do I believe ALL men in history are responsible for this evil? No. I do, however, know enough about the world to see oppression and sexual commodification (e.g. linking a woman’s worth to her virginity, or blaming the downfall of society on feminism) for what it truly is.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  I don’t speak for all men, but I speak for myself and most of my friends. When I got married, I wanted pretty. Pretty was what she would be on the outside but more importantly what she would be on the inside. “Hot” women are usually “hot” on the outside but shallow on the inside. I’ve been married for 25 years now and to me, my wife is more “pretty” than ever. The people I know who were looking for a “hot” wife are, for the most part, divorced and lonely now.

You expressed these concepts so well.  As I see the television line-up including more and more degrading shows, it really does make me feel bad.  Snooky and Bad Girls and others like them aspire to be what can’t even really be described as hot.  Just wild and easy and deceitful and confrontive.  It bad enough when men want to be cocky and pushy and hard.  But when women try even harder, it’s incredibly unatractive.  We may try to laugh it off, but just try to find anything modest for your daughters in department and chain stores now.  Even if our daughters do not want to become like these women, their options in clothing have been severely affected.  But it’s the personalities and drive and lack of any ethics that I would want to keep my daughters away from.

@ Lector
  Thank you for letting me know what all Christian men do and do not want, think, and find attractive.  My own experiences derived from 32 years of churchgoing obviously has been rendered void by your statements.  I forgot that all Christian men were perfect and not a single one would ever view a woman as a challenge or score.  If only we women could catch up!  Oh, and thank you for explaining to me how I feel about Jesus.  I would never have known how I felt about his motives until you, a man, came along and told me.  When I wrote “Men that treat women as commodities will treat women as commodities no matter how they dress or present themselves” I didn’t realize that I was talking about ALL men - including Jesus!  My mistake.
  A man who lives by “true” Christian-biblical principles does not view women as a commodity, period.  It’s this kind of worldview that produced misogyny, abuse and the subjugation of women.  Clearly, there is no doubt in your mind that Jesus would have judged pretty women to be better than sexy women despite his teachings of love and acceptance of all sinners.  And btw,—to all men, (Hot, Handsome, Plain or otherwise), men who view women as commodities – be them ‘hot’ commodities to be used up or ‘pretty’ commodities to be married - are not attractive to women.  As a Christian woman, I try my best to avoid men who view women as commodities.  It doesn’t ‘fit’ who I am in Christ. 
  @ All the women who are talking about teaching their daughters to choose ‘pretty’ over ‘hot’ so that they do not become a commodity to be used up… how about teaching them to not be a commodity at all?  By telling them how much better it is to be pretty because good Christian men prefer to date and marry pretty girls (assuming all Christian men are the same.  Tip: they aren’t!) you are simply telling them to be one kind of commodity instead of another!  In essence you are saying that sexy women are rentals and pretty women get purchased – either way you are treating women like something to be bought and paid for.  Why can’t we focus on the root of the problem – viewing women as ANY kind of commodity.  This view of women is just plain wrong and by teaching our daughters how to dress to be seen by men as the marrying type rather than the sexy type just reinforces the stereotype.  Don’t teach her ‘how to snag a man by being pretty instead of hot’.  Teach your daughters to be self-reliant.  Teach her that she has worth as a person – not just as someone’s future wife.  Teach her that she deserves respect and that her value isn’t measured by how some man views her.  Teach her to truly love herself and if/when she chooses to marry she’ll end up with a man who truly loves her as well.  Chances are he’ll think she is both ‘hot’ and pretty.

I would like to thank you for your article.  As a mother of five girls and a little boy I work hard to instill virtue in my kids.  I want them to know who they are.  I want them to respect themselves and not feel that they have to go with the “norm” to fit in.  A boy who is after a “hot” girl is not after the best in them.  Looking like a hooker from the 90s is what many of the styles go for now.  I see girls going to church with skirts to mid thigh then sit on chairs and slouch down with their feet on the chair in front of them.  I did not ask for the view girls and niether did the boys. 

Not all boys are after the view or the feel.  I believe we need to teach our boys to treasure virtue and seek a girl who values herself.  We need to teach our girls to cover themselves up.  They don’t need to change for a boy.  If they want attention of a boy who only looks at a girl who is dress skankily they need to change who they want to date.  I know, I know….hard to do.

I am LDS and we have Family Home Evening on Monday nights and tonight we will be discussing this article.  My oldest daughter is almost 14.  She values virtue and I hope she will continue too.  I know in this world and the role models that are everywhere I have my work cut out for me.  I am up to the challenge.  I was given 5 girls for a reason.  I will do my best to teach them and be there for them.  I love my pretty girls!

Again, thank you for your article.  I have shared it with many friends and they agree.  Bring Back Pretty!!!

Just because a woman dresses a certain way does not mean that she isn’t innocent.  Maybe our society should stop focusing on appearances and what’s on the inside.  That’s where real beauty is no matter if your outward appearance is “pretty” or hot.

I would like to thank you for your article.  As a mother of five girls and a little boy I work hard to instill virtue in my kids.  I want them to know who they are.  I want them to respect themselves and not feel that they have to go with the “norm” to fit in.  A boy who is after a “hot” girl is not after the best in them.  Looking like a hooker from the 90s is what many of the styles go for now.  I see girls going to church with skirts to mid thigh then sit on chairs and slouch down with their feet on the chair in front of them.  I did not ask for the view girls and neither did the boys.  Not all boys are after the view or the feel.  I believe we need to teach our boys to treasure virtue and seek a girl who values herself.  We need to teach our girls to cover themselves up.  They don’t need to change for a boy.  If they want attention of a boy who only looks at a girl who is dress skankily they need to change who they want to date.  I know, I know….hard to do.  I am LDS and we have Family Home Evening on Monday nights and tonight we will be discussing this article.  My oldest daughter is almost 14.  She values virtue and I hope she will continue too.  I know in this world and the role models that are everywhere I have my work cut out for me.  I am up to the challenge.  I was given 5 girls for a reason.  I will do my best to teach them and be there for them.  I love my pretty girls!  Again, thank you for your article.  I have shared it with many friends and they agree.  Bring Back Pretty!!!

Reading this made my heart happy.  I am married to a man who loves “pretty.”  He is a good man and a wonderful husband.  He opens my door for me and treats me with such care.  He thinks I am the most beautiful when I wake up in the morning.  I am so grateful that he sees me for who I am and loves me.  I am so grateful I was taught when I was a teenager to expect boys to treat me with respect and in return to treat them with the same respect.  A few days ago my daughter (in 1st grade) said, “mom your hot.”  I asked her where did she hear that phrase and she said she heard it at school.  She was trying to give me a compliment but didn’t really know what she was saying.  It broke my heart.  I actually said, “Thank you for trying to be nice but that actually isn’t what I would like to hear.  Being “hot” is when a boy likes you for not good reasons.  I like to be beautiful, that means I’m pretty inside and out.”  It was sad to me that her innocence is being taken from her at such an early age.  I wish the world could slow down a bit and feel respect for themselves.  To feel self worth and not have to sell themselves short.

I cannot say that I fully agree with this. Yes, I do believe that modesty in our society has begun to fade away, or maybe as times change it should simply be redefined. I don’t know. I have to agree with the few comments that state that in an indirect way the author is also implying that the “innocent, pretty girl” is in her own way a commodity- also consumable, to be used in her own unique way. I do have a question…a serious one. What if I have been described as pretty by one man, hot by another? What then does that “make” me? Am I some perfect in-between where I am somehow not a commodity? Am I a semi-usable commodity? Am I only half as “good” and “worth something” as the “pretty” ones? I’m confused. Or, should I use the label given to me to judge the man who gave it? You think I’m innocent and pretty? Then I must believe you are meek, a lonely man aching for any semblance of love. You think I’m hot? You must be a womanizing, STD-ridden, bad boy whom I could NEVER marry. That doesn’t really seem correct OR fair! Another question- what the heck is “beautiful” and where does that fall in here????

I think what struck me was that the article seemed to be saying ‘don’t hooch-ify yourself, we like ‘pretty’ better.’ ‘We’ being men.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I would love to see the whole sexy trend be gone. There’s a time and a place for sexiness.

But this whole article perpetuates the emphasis on women’s appearances (hot or pretty, it’s still how a female looks), justifies the swing from hotness to pretty because it’s how a man (men?) prefers it, and - to add insult to injury - it attributes hyper-sexualization to the feminist movement.

I’m shocked that more women in the comments section aren’t more appalled, but honestly, with these sort of messages out there all the time, how can I blame a woman for being confused?

I very much loved the message this gave.  I totally agree with the loss of being pretty.  Thank you for sharing.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your post!! I try so hard to teach my daughter (who is now 3) that she is smart and fun and polite (though I admit, she can be cute as a button). I hope that as I teach her to respect herself, she will look for a man later in life who will respect her as well. I have never been hott a day in my life - but my husband definitely sees how pretty I am. =]

What about strong and beautiful? Empowered? Rather than striving for a man’s attention (whether sexual or protective), shouldn’t women be happy in themselves, and strive for peace and strength within themselves? Your idea of pretty is no less a consumable than hot. And recent studies on sex trafficking would argue against the idea that an perception of innocence brings out the best in men.

Look, I don’t like the idea of twelve year-olds dressing like call-girls, either. But the answer isn’t a repressed innocence. Real beauty is in kindness, generosity, humor, intelligence, and self-assuredness.

Well spoken.  I couldn’t agree more!  Women also now pretend they don’t want the marriage, etc.  Wrong.  They’ve trained themselves to think this (with a few exceptions) because men no longer want to marry most women (like you said, they can consume, so why commit?)  I still believe in the old saying, “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”  Women may think hotness is more freeing.  But how free are they gonna feel when they’re 70 or 80 and alone?  I know lots of women out there will scoff, but it’s what I think.  So be it.

@ Lector
Thank you for letting me know what all Christian men do and do not want, think, and find attractive.  My own experiences derived from 32 years of churchgoing obviously has been rendered void by your statements.  I forgot that all Christian men were perfect and not a single one would ever view a woman as a challenge or score.  If only we women could catch up!  Oh, and thank you for explaining to me how I feel about Jesus.  I would never have known how I felt about his motives until you, a man, came along and told me.  When I wrote “Men that treat women as commodities will treat women as commodities no matter how they dress or present themselves” I didn’t realize that I was talking about ALL men - including Jesus!  My mistake.
A man who lives by “true” Christian-biblical principles does not view women as a commodity, period.  It’s this kind of worldview that produced misogyny, abuse and the subjugation of women.  Clearly, there is no doubt in your mind that Jesus would have judged pretty women to be better than sexy women despite his teachings of love and acceptance of all sinners.  And btw,—to all men, (Hot, Handsome, Plain or otherwise), men who view women as commodities – be them ‘hot’ commodities to be used up or ‘pretty’ commodities to be married - are not attractive to women.  As a Christian woman, I try my best to avoid men who view women as commodities.  It doesn’t ‘fit’ who I am in Christ. 
@ All the women who are talking about teaching their daughters to choose ‘pretty’ over ‘hot’ so that they do not become a commodity to be used up… how about teaching them to not be a commodity at all?  By telling them how much better it is to be pretty because good Christian men prefer to date and marry pretty girls (assuming all Christian men are the same.  Tip: they aren’t!) you are simply telling them to be one kind of commodity instead of another!  In essence you are saying that sexy women are rentals and pretty women get purchased – either way you are treating women like something to be bought and paid for.  Why can’t we focus on the root of the problem – viewing women as ANY kind of commodity.  This view of women is just plain wrong and by teaching our daughters how to dress so that men will put them in one category or another just perpetuates the limitation of women.  Don’t teach her ‘how to snag a man by being pretty instead of hot’.  Teach your daughters to be self-reliant.  Teach her that she has worth as a person – not just as someone’s future wife.  Teach her that she deserves respect and that her value isn’t measured by how some man views her.  Teach her to truly love herself and if/when she chooses to marry she’ll end up with a man who truly loves her as well.  Chances are he’ll think she is both hot and pretty.

Well written. May this message pass on to many and, more so, may it touch their soul.

Bravo!  What a wonderful, well written article.  I am the mother of five sons who were taught to value womenhood and purity, and two daughters (19 & 16).  Both of my daughters are beautiful, and my husband has mentioned several times that beauty can be a curse.  If all anyone ever comments on is their outer beauty where is the pressure to become the person of quality within.  I talk and talk and talk to my girls, but still it seems as if some days the world that values “hotness” is winning.  I am going to share this article with them in the hope that it will make a difference, and they will value being pretty.

I appreciate your article and I think the minority can lead out from the majority if we choose to. We as consumers “buy” into a lot of it through what movies and TV shows we choose to watch, what music we choose to listen to, what books and magazines we choose to read, and what we choose to buy and wear. I think it all starts at home. Parents have a big impact and responsibility in how they raise their children, more so than the world if we stand firm in our resolve and our examples. We as parents can provide correct morals and teaching. Parents can teach by example how women/girls should be treated, a father can teach his sons and daughters to respect themselves and women. He can teach them by example how to respect and cherish their mother. Appreciating and honoring her and complimenting her inner and outer beauty. I have been a teacher to the Young Women (12-18) youth of our church. We are taught from a young age to guard and honor virtue. The church has guidlelines in their “For the Strength of Youth” pamphlet which describes in detail what is acceptable and appropriate standards for our youth and in dating, regarding modesty, chastity, and virtue. Young women of the church also work on personal progress goals and values daily. These include but are not limited to; Faith,Divine Nature, Individual Worth,Knowledge, Choice & Accountability, Good Works, and Integrity. Our adult women’s (Relief Society)motto is “Charity Never Faileth” putting emphasis into honoring the roles of motherhood, serving others, and using our talents to bless the lives of others in our home, communities, and the world. I know that we can make a difference in teaching our sons and daughters to cherish virtue, dress modestly, and be examples of what true beauty really means. Modesty is not only needed for girls, but for boys also. For example—put on a shirt when you aren’t swimming or working out, pull up your pants, and use clean language that does not degrade women. These “old-fashioned” virtues need to be returned to the home first if we want to see a change in our world.

What he is calling “pretty” is what used to define a lady. Women in this day and age lost innocence when their modesty was viciously attacked as children and succumbed to the pervasive influences of a society that values the flesh, not the spirit and the soul. In the fifties when I was growing up the “F” word was never heard. Ever. I never heard it until I was in 12th grade and I knew instinctively that it was an evil word even though I had no clue what it meant. Now it is more common amongst youth, even little children, than to say “Please” or “Thank you”. That is a sad comment on society. Look at the clothing racks for little girls. They are trying to vamp up three and four year olds. That is absolutely hideous and outrageous. But worse, someone is buying that garbage and clothing their precious little girls in it. And you expect innocence from this merchandising of our children? To be a lady, a woman must think she is worth more than the stuff strutted on Playboy or Cosmopolitan. They don’t.  That has become their standard. It is a sad society that throws beautiful little children into the blender and allows media and schools and a hundred other institutions to mold them after their perverted agendas. And there is a heavy price to pay for that. It is homage to humanism and you are seeing the result. And you don’t like it.

I loved your post!... Well, all except the part about Taylor Swift. Do you think that she portrays a model figure for innocence? Maybe she once did, but look at Google images of her, and it is obvious that she (or someone she works for) also wants to be seen as “hot.” It is sad that that is the best we have as a role model for pretty! Oh how our world needs some truly pretty women to be role models for the world!

In my opinion, it would be best if how someone looks isn’t the sole criterion that we judge them with.

I have a few friends who are “innocent” who have gone through rather provocative phases. People probably viewed them as being consumable pieces of garbage, as you have suggested, but they are in fact not. I know judgment is inevitable, but it’s marvelous imagining a world where you get judged based on YOU, not just whatever garments you happen to be wearing. Beauty, and standards, are in the eye of the beholder.

And honestly, even if a girl DID wish to be scantily clad, who are we to judge? If it bothers you, look away. My choices are mine, and others’ choices are theirs.  We each only have one life on this planet, and we should each also be able to freely live each day as we wish (within reason.)

Men who write such sweet things are hard to find as well. I love this article!

Well said. I felt the same way about Olivia Newton John. I have 6 girls of my own, some have gone for ‘hot’ and some have gone for ‘pretty’. My mother used to say that when you advertise you get answers. It is sad to think what the answers will be for the girls who have chosen ‘hot’ over ‘pretty’.

I am pretty. In every sense you describe. And, I teach my daughters that this is how they want to be; lovely, feminine, virtuous, modest - inside & out. This is what I teach my sons is desirable. So far, so good. But yes, they’re still young. And yes, I’m single. I won’t give in & compromise myself, my standards, my beauty, to be wontonly sought after for a cheap thrill, then discarded. I am of value. My value will not diminish by my remaining single in order to preserve my values. I will wait for the right man. I try, desperately, to teach many women this concept. Some learn & follow. Some don’t care. They want a man, now. Regardless of the emotional price paid. Both genders increase this debacle. I stand strong in an effort to stop it. Thank you for writing this piece. I hope someone else will also long to keep pretty alive, & well.

How about !@#$% yourself? Stop trying to control and condemn women all for the sake of your preferences, ass.

Eh, Taylor Swift might dress less provocatively, but she is a tawdry !@#$%, as brought to my attention by a friend who is a fan of her songs.  All of her songs give off the wrong message, not someone I’d want my daughters looking up to at all.

A woman who chooses to portray an image of sexuality isn’t always doing it to try to trick a a man into liking her. Have you considered the possibility that some women are sexually driven too? To suggest that women only strive to inspire men to love them is ignorant. Women are just as capable of wanting nothing more than sex out of a relationship. That’s what the feminist movement did for us. It brought us to a point where we have the choice of being feminine, masculine, dominant, or sexual in the degree that we choose to be without society telling us we can’t.

I just had to give a shout out to Jen L above, who said:

“In essence you are saying that sexy women are rentals and pretty women get purchased – either way you are treating women like something to be bought and paid for.  Why can’t we focus on the root of the problem – viewing women as ANY kind of commodity.”

This is brilliant—I may have to steal it, if that’s okay with you. :)

To anyone confused about why there are some women who are reacting so negatively to the article, this sums it up in a nutshell. As I said in my post above, I believe modesty is worthwhile and godly, but the article above is very misguided and in fact toxic in its presentation of that idea.

AWSOME AWSOME AWSOME!!! Very well stated! I would like to see pretty brought back!

I read this article this morning and shared it with my husband.  I totally agree and felt that the issue was well put.  However, I think a few points could be added.  I am a school teacher who no longer teaches school.  The lack of discipline and respectful behavior was terrible.  The girls and boys would grab each other in inappropriate places with no concern for who might be watching.  Monday morning conversation consisted of talking about who had sex with whom over the weekend. These children were seventh and eighth graders, doesn’t this just make you optimistic about their futures? Personally, I miss innocense in young people and I think this is what the author is trying to say.  I never behaved this way as a young girl and those who did certainly did not advertise it.  As far as presenting myself as an adult, I try to be appropriate and mature and ATTRACTIVE, not sexed up like I am ready for a roll in the proverbial hay. I am a strong and confident women who ownsdid her own business.  I dress for success and not sex in the workplace.  I am sorry but if you put it out there you appear to want it whether that is your intention or not.  And don’t preach to me about judgement because unfortunately the first impression people get is usually what they think of you.  That has always been true and always will be true.  Just because you think it should be different does not make it so.  So my final though applies to males and females… if it looks like a dog it most likely is a dog.  Think about that one for a while.

Taylor Swift has worn plenty of sexy outfits.  She wears very red lipstick and lots of makeup.  However, you think she looks innocent because of her curly hair and sweetly shaped features.  And, since she acts with class and dignity, a revealing outfit on her body does not project trashiness.  The other women you cited have histories of bad behavior; it is how they act and not how they dress, or do their hair and makeup that cause people to view them negatively.

Who are you to represent every man and his preferences? And who are you to condemn self-respecting women for dressing as they see fit? If a woman is content with how she presents herself, let her be. I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish here, but you won’t go far.

So, rather than objectifying myself by dressing “hot” for men, I should objectify myself by dressing “pretty” for men. Instead of, say, dressing for me.

And also, men have complete control of how they treat a woman, regardless of how she is dressed.

Another also: 40 years of women’s lib has only succeeded in reducing us to “consumable”? First, women have always been treated as consumable, whether under the guise of pretty and innocent in the 40’s and 50’s, “liberated” in the 70’s, or stupid, flirtatious, and decorative in the 1800’s. Second, “women’s lib” got us the right to a real education, the right to divorce our husbands, the right to hold any job, the right to custody of our children after a divorce, the right not to be beaten, the right not to be raped by our husbands or anyone else, the right to birth control, the right to our own bank accounts and credit cards, the right to vote, the right to run for office, the right to own property in the same way as a man, the right to be considered our own person separate from father and husband, and more. But it has never forced men to objectify us. If you do that, it is your ultimately own choice.

I reiterate the “bravo” many have already uttered.  Raising a soon to be nine-year-old daughter (along with two younger brothers), we talk a lot about superficial versus internal beauty and that true beauty radiates from within…having nothing to do with clothing choices, hairstyle, make-up, etc.  Perhaps this definition of “beauty” is synonymous with your “pretty” defined herein.

I do hope for a return to the value of “pretty” in our society but fear we have a long way to go.  Bright, lacy bras are currently considered an accessory (along with the cleavage they push up) which not only peaks out, but plays a major role in many styles today. Hem lines tend to be on par with short shorts (Daisy Dukes, anyone?)along with revealed midriffs and an appetite for the pre-pubescent female frame.

On the one hand, I plan to raise our children feeling very comfortable and non-Puritan about their bodies on a personal level, yet at the same time encouraging public modesty.  “Haute” is not where it’s at.  There is a lot to be said about how a person presents him or herself to the world, and the messages s/he sends with that presentation.

Kudos to you for an eloquently written article.

ifrit:  you know how the feminsit movment forced men to objectify us?  Because when they had complete control over us, they could afford flowery phrases and gestures to hide the ugly truth.  Now that the control is slipping away, the mask is gone.  Mr. Archbold yearns for the good old days when he could oppress women as he liked and treat them as a commodity, while feeling good about it because he used euphemisms.

This is a great essay. What is lacking, however, is the other side of the story: why men are so willing to accept hot vs pretty. If I stay inside the author’s context—with which I agree—I would have to ask if he thinks men “go for” hot because it demands less of them? Because at the same time that females are pursuing hotness, men are NOT pursuing being noble and high-minded as much as they used to. In short, what responsibility do men have in restoring the culture of pretty? From my experience, it is not until they become fathers of daughters that this kicks in… that’s why I LOVED the Pete Wentz quote that’s been circulating about great girls being apples on the top of the tree…to hear that from someone so young was AWESOME.

couple of things here, pat:

first off, no woman is ever a consumable or a commodity. regardless of her wardrobe choices, she’s equal to you in every way.

i’m a twenty year old woman, and no, i’m not speaking for all women, but i know that some of us, like me, don’t feel the need or want to be “protected” by any man (including my own fiancee). i’m perfectly capable of protecting myself, and i don’t belong on any pedestal—no one does. women aren’t an accessory so that you can define us by the way we look; there’s more to a girl than just “pretty”, or “hot”, or “innocent”. more importantly, whether a woman chooses to dress/behave like sandra dee at the start of grease, or like rizzo throughout the whole of the movie is, ultimately, her own choice—not yours, not society’s, and not any man’s. a woman should aspire to be her own person, not a man’s idealized version of something, and it isn’t your place to judge her for it.

p.s. - just a bit of an fyi here:  you say “of course men play a role in this as well”, but you fail to mention how, exactly. instead, one conjunction later, you absolve men of any fault they might have by throwing all the blame on women and patronizingly saying that we should know better.

so, i guess what i’m saying is that i’d like to see an article on the Death of Handsome because i can’t truthfully say that men (though there are exceptions) are walking around like the patron saints of chivalry. enlightmen me, pat, because the supposed loss of morals and ideals is a two way street, and men are just as much to blame.

@ifrit and Adriana:  This NCR website is not the Huffington Post or AOL for you to vent the ills of how men have “done you wrong.”  The nature of this site is not necessarily to censor you, but moreover to reflect a Christian perspective, not a secular one.  The author’s article concerning Hot versus Pretty is stated from a traditional Christian viewpoint,—not the societal culture you are coming from.  Your continual ranting about the ills of abusive men who are unfaithful, rape and beat their wives and girlfriends and seek to impose their will over them by controlling the female sex beg the question:  “Why would even choose to date and marry such a man?”  Assuming you both are no longer “innocent” and naive, are you not responsible for your own choices in this day of “liberated” women?  You seem to reject biblical Christian principles yet it is Christ who is the greatest liberator of all men and women.  Those who mutually seek joyful, faithful, respectful relationships including marriage know this objective is best achieved when a man and woman are equally yoked as faithful believers in Christ.  It is He who is the foundation of their core being and thus it is He who provides conviction they both are standing on solid ground.  It would be helpful if you had more to offer than just another Gloria Allred press conference.

This article is appalling. So, you’re upset that women don’t want to be seen as dainty little flowers in need of protection by men. In fact, you judge women’s entire worth based on what they invoke in men. Pretty women are better, because they evoke feelings of protection. Hot women are worse, because men only want to use them sexually. Many of us women make our decisions based on what WE want, not how men will view us.

60 years ago, women wouldn’t have been seen as blatant sex objects? That’s ALL women were 60 years ago. I’d rather be seen as a sex object and have the right to divorce, to have a job, to run for office…. things only appeared better 60 years ago, because no one talked about it. Talk about a delusional essay. This author is one of those people who talk about how good things used to be back in the day. You know, when you could lynch a black person for looking at you wrong, and beat your wife for back-talking you. Those were the days.

@Kate, your bitterness and presumptuousness are showing.  Where does he say women are to be ‘dainty little flowers in need of protection by men’?  Where does he show that he judge’s women’s entire worth based on what they invoke in men?  What proof do you have ALL women were viewed as sex objects 60 years ago?  You want a right to divorce, a job, and run for office, but you seem to incoherently think that a return to innocence will rob you of those things.

@d2 - how about the part where Pat(riarchy) says “the pretty inspires men to protect and defend it.” I think the implication here is that this is something women should want. Also, she didn’t say that “all women were viewed as sex objects”, she said “that’s all women were 60 years ago”, which isn’t the same thing. I think you should work a bit on your reading comprehension before you accuse others of their supposed shortcomings…

@d2 - the “return to innocence” is about relegating women to a lower status and re-iterating the common conservative, patriarichal notion of a woman’s virginity (oh sorry, her “innocence”) as being a commodity that is also the one deciding factor in her self worth, especially in the eyes of religion. I have a friend right now whose priest/minister/whatever won’t marry her because she has been “living in sin” with her fiancee. What the heck kind of modern day viewpoint is that? It is exactly that aspect of control over a woman’s sexuality that we are concerned about here. Having a healthy sexual life is just as important to an adult’s psychological health as having a healthy emotional life. All of this guilt and control and commodification of a woman’s sexuality is detrimental and archaic!

Well then, I’ll just get back to the kitchen. I wouldn’t want to have experiences in life because you know then I wouldn’t be innocent. And then I couldn’t get a man to protect me. And then of course I’d die because every woman needs a man to protect her. Silly me.

Maybe missed the point, but I read this twice to make sure I didn’t misunderstand. While encouraging pretty is preferable to encouraging hot, why do we have to do either? This seems like a false dichotomy to me. Instead of encouraging women to be a Jackie instead of a Marilynn, why don’t we encourage them to be themselves? Instead of pretty, can we inspire them to be powerful? Can we hold up examples of women like Margaret Thatcher, Marie Curie, etc. My problem with your definition of pretty is that it is still male-centric. It is about how men respond to us based on the way that we look. I enjoy fashion and make-up because of how it makes ME feel, not because of the response it creates in men. I believe in innocence, I encourage innocence, I think innocence is attractive, but let us not encourage innocence because of the response it will create in men. To me, being innocent to attract male attention is not much better than being slutty to get the same.

Lector:  I like that “why would you choose to marry such a man?” from someone who does not think that women have careers. If a woman cannot be self supporting, then she MUST marry, and thus her ability to choose a man is limited.  It is not “this is up to your standards”  but “it is this or abject poverty”.  Any man looks better than starving to death, no matter how flawed.  Sure, they start getting choosy, but if they do not get lucky, then their standards go down and down and down.  So, when the worst happens, what do you say to such a woman “If you are abused, it is your fault for choosing this husband, and by the way, divorce is a sin, and you will burn in Hell if you do not stay with this man and put up with it, with a smile”

And then you will pat yourself on the back becasue you are not like that yourself, and your wife is not abused…

As for the Christian viewpoint,as you put it, I am pointing the flaws, and the need to get a better model working. 

And do not tell met that true followers of Christ do not do that.  You might as well not put locks on your doors because true followers of Christ do not break and enter other peoples’ homes.

If you want to know why so many women are critical of the “Christian” viewpoint as you put it, it was because it failed them when they needed it. What solutions do you offer?

Wow. What planet do you live on??? Must be one really different from the one I live on.

The one I live on, I used to dress very modestly as a teenager (and still do as an adult woman). However, when I dressed modestly, I constantly had people from my very conservative religious community recommend that I dressed just a little “less modest”, maybe skirts that were a little shorter. Maybe shirts that were more fitted. Maybe more make-up. Maybe just a little more in the neighborhood of “sexy”. This advice came from men. Not women.

And as I sat around as a young girl at many dances organized by my Church, making every effort to look presentable, while being modest in my appearance, no guys ever asked me to dance. No guys actually ever wanted to date me. And trust me, I wasn’t overweight, or particularly unattractive. I just wasn’t hot.

And hot is what the guys wanted. The girls that were asked to dance were not the ones that were just pretty by your definition. They were the most attractive, hottest girls present.

It’d be a nice world where guys actually, truly cared more for a woman simply being ‘pretty’ (by your definition). I’d like such a world. And I’d think men would like such a world as well. But the reality is that guys like hot women. They like sexy women. They seek them out. They will consume what’s offered. 

I cannot believe the audacity you have to put the blame for how women dress in today’s society primarily on women. Most women probably just dress to please men. And men seem to be wanting “hot” and “sexy”. They want eye-candy. They want a turn-on. They don’t want modest. They just don’t want to feel bad about how much they prefer sexy over modest.

And women, as always, go ahead and do whatever is takes to keep the men happy. And to maybe get a wee bit of attention, and love.

You really got it all wrong in this article.

@athenian_oracle:  It would be hypocritical for any Priest or Minister to approve cohabitation and marry the couple.  They already know they are committing fornication (sexual sin).  The couple can easily marry at City Hall.  They simply want the church to legitimize their sin.  More than likely, a Priest or Minister would approve and conduct marriage based upon church teaching that requires cohabitating couples to first stop their fornication, live separately and then prepare for marriage.  Marriage in the church is a holy and sacramental event before the Lord.  Any Catholic Priest or Christian Pastor is not required to sanction (as you would like) to wit: —- “What the heck kind of modern day viewpoint is that? It is exactly that aspect of control over a woman’s sexuality that we are concerned about here.”  Yours is a typical secular atheistic response, athenian.  Is not the Pastor applying the same standard for the man as well?  Contrary to your opinion, the church is not in the business of approving (your term) *modern day viewpoints* but moreover, the church is about teaching, practicing and applying timeless principles found in the Word of God.  You would prefer the Bible be done away with.  It’s not going to happen.  Not now, not ever.  Catholics and Christians see God’s Word as “modern”—for all generations from the beginning to the 2nd coming.  Your hysteria about control over a woman’s sexuality is trumped ten-fold by obedience to the Lord.

bravo my friend

@athenian_oracle: You have been misinformed.  Divorce is not a sin and you will not “burn in Hell” for not staying married.  There are biblical grounds for divorce.  No woman is required to stay married to an unfaithful man or one who is abusive physically, emotionally, is a perpetual alcoholic or drug addicted.  Likewise, any man who fails to support his family financially the Bible calls him worse than an infidel.  I suggest if you take time to learn more about the Christian faith you find the real truth of God’s Word and of His immense love for you.  The gospel of Jesus Christ is about forgiveness, not condemnation.

I am a 22-year-old single, Christian woman who supports myself and blah blah blah. I would by no means consider myself a ‘dainty little flower’ or whatever. Now that that’s out of the way, THANK YOU for this article. To all you girls who think that we’re somehow better off because we have gained “sexual equality” with men… stop kidding yourselves. All we’ve done is opened ourselves up to being used even more than before. You think guys bawl their eyes out on the bathroom floor after being used for sex? I can assure you, they don’t. Sex will never be equal because sex affects guys and girls differently. Period. For years I thought I was missing out because I wasn’t having wild sex with every guy I wanted. Eventually I decided I wasn’t going to miss out anymore, and guess what? I found out sex outside of marriage (AKA a commitment to honor and serve each other forever) is CHEAP. My advice? Love yourself enough to stop being easy. When you do, you’ll start dressing like it. You’re not going to advertise what isn’t available. And if you are, well, then you’re just a tease, but that’s a whole other rant. It isn’t about being weak or ‘dainty’ vs. being a strong, independent woman; it’s about self-respect.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could hardly contain myself as I read this! One of my blog readers sent me the link to this KNOWING I would love it. She was right! I do!
Have a PRETTY day!
Kristin

Excellent article, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

@Lector - The man, luckily enough, is sensible enough not to believe in God. The woman is devastated because she has been attending that church her entire life. The only visible “sin” they are committing is that of co-habituation - which I suppose is also a sin? As for your final solidarity claims, you must be absolutely devastated to see that atheism is on the rise and that more and more regions are pushing for modernist laws that leave your mythical book back in the dark ages where it belongs!

No. It’s actually getting rid of a unfair double-standard. It’s all fine and dandy if a man is promiscuous, and most men don’t want to be considered innocent.  Whereas traditionally it has been most attractive for women to be innocent, as you said. Where did this double standard come from? Evolution. Females, making the larger parental investment per gamete (pregnancy) evolved to be more selective in order to create offspring with good genes, whereas males evolved to spread their seed as far and wide as possible. Nowadays, humans don’t need to do this. We marry and raise families, and mates should be equally selective to ensure the most successful family life.  The double-standard is just an illusion we’ve evolved to believe. So we need to do away with it. Men want to be “hot” instead of “pretty.” What’s wrong with women wanting the same? After all, we’re equals, right?

@athenian_oracle who writes:  “You must be absolutely devastated to see that atheism is on the rise and that more and more regions are pushing for modernist laws that leave your mythical book back in the dark ages where it belongs!”    Despite the factual and historical evidence which refutes your ignorance, believers are not surprised to see atheism on the rise.  Bring it on faster, please.  The Bible has already predicted an increase of people who think as you do.  It only hastens more quickly the return of Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  Athenian, your knee will also eventually bow.  You reject God’s Word because you dislike seeing yourself when you read it.  It convicts the man (or woman) of their sin and thus your need of a Savior—who is Christ the Lord.  Athenian, the ultimate question you must answer is whether Jesus is who He claimed to be—or was He the greatest fraud to ever walk on the planet?

As a 21 year old woman raised to value herself and her body, I have not been unaware of this issue.  My parents and brothers instilled certain values in me and protected me in many ways, and I have done my best to remember why I comport myself the way I do despite cultural pressure to do otherwise.  These values have led me to be selective with the men I date, and thus I am in my first relationship.  Entering this phase of my life has brought a whole new rush of insecurities as I realize that I do not have the wardrobe or the “skills” that culture tells me I need to please my boyfriend.  Good thing I am selective; good thing I was taught to choose the kind of man who values my purity and who sent me this article knowing how much it would encourage me.

I agree, one hundred percent. It always upsets me that clothing stores for little girls are filled with halter tops and bikinis. We’re raising our baby girls to look hot, which is just wrong. Thank you for your courage in writing this article.

The sad thing is, I looked innocent when I got married, and my image hasn’t changed much. However, my husband of ten years left me, and has chosen someone “hotter.” From him, at least, I learned that some men will treat the “pretty” as consumable, too.

Since when did “pretty” mean “subservient”? Please spare us the ignorant lamenting that women no longer fit your ignorant and misogynistic cultural ideal. They never did. You will only find those women in your deluded memories of the past - when you could stroke your ego on the minimal rights your ilk afforded to women.

Amen.  I write often on topics such as these and I really like the way you called hotness a consumable… very clever and true.
Cassandra http://www.theunpluggedfamily.com

Well said..

“We are daughters of our Heavenly Father, who loves us, and we love him. We will stand as witnesses of God at all times, and in all things, and in all places, as we strive to live the young women values, which are,
Faith
Divine nature
Individual worth
Knowledge
Choice and accountability
Good works
Integrity
And virtue.” part of the young women’s creed of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. For more on the value of women as daughters of god, visit LDS.org or Mormon.org. Women who love Christ are truly beautiful!

@Lector - That is wonderful that you have faith in Jesus Christ. I don’t hate him (even though I do not believe he was the son of God - since God does not exist), I just despise the Catholic Church’s views on sexuality, marriage, and women.

Betty or Veronica? The age-old Archie dilemma. Where have all the Betties gone!

j, thank you so much! i was about to post that and saw you already had it :) i agree with many of the things said in this article. As a high schooler in today’s world it is next to impossible to maintain high standards of dress and chastity. The ability to do this shows strength, not weakness. I think it is so heartbreaking to see so many of my friends wearing tight, low-cut shirts and thread-lengthed skirts and then turn to me and don’t understand why they weren’t able to find a man who would stick with them. A dry stick in a campground is going to get thrown on the fire. The same way, if you try to look “consumable” you will be burned. It is not about just about boys though. Even if there aren’t boys around, the way you feel about yourself is proven to be directly affected by what you wear. They even use it in psycological analysis! I truly believe that keeping chaste inside and out will bring you a better, stronger, more positive outlook. You dont belive it? Try it out for a month or so. I challenge you. I promise that you will be more at peace with both yourself and content in your world.

You lack honesty and depth. You think there’s no way to be passionate about the majority of the sex you are biologically attracted to and still have strong, meaningful relationships? Ugh.

Disclaimer: I try very hard to not generalize, to not stereotype. But, since Mr. Archbold seems to enjoy both, I yield to his convention.

“People will define pretty differently.  For the purposes of this piece, I define pretty as a mutually enriching balanced combination of beauty and projected innocence.”

I am curious as to how Mr Archbold defines “pretty” outside of this piece. Does it change with every article? Does it morph somehow between usages depending upon with whom he’s communicating?

Well, I hate to break it to you, Mr. Archbold, but “pretty” has already been defined:

pret·ty: adjective
1. pleasing or attractive to the eye, as by delicacy or gracefulness: a pretty face.
2. (of things, places, etc.) pleasing to the eye, especially without grandeur.
3. pleasing to the ear: a pretty tune.
4. pleasing to the mind or aesthetic taste: He writes pretty little stories.
5. (often used ironically) fine; grand: This is a pretty mess!

Innocence as well:

in·no·cence: noun
1. the quality or state of being innocent;  freedom from sin or moral wrong.
2. freedom from legal or specific wrong; guiltlessness: The prisoner proved his innocence.
3. simplicity; absence of guile or cunning; naiveté.
4. lack of knowledge or understanding.
5. harmlessness; innocuousness.

Even beauty:

beau·ty: noun
1. the quality present in a thing or person that gives intense pleasure or deep satisfaction to the mind, whether arising from sensory manifestations (as shape, color, sound, etc.), a meaningful design or pattern, or something else (as a personality in which high spiritual qualities are manifest).
2. a beautiful  person, especially a woman.
3. a beautiful  thing, as a work of art or a building.

“By nature, generally when men see this combination in women it brings out their better qualities, their best in fact.”
>>> “As I said, pretty inspires men’s nobler instincts to protect and defend.”

What a CROCK! Pretty, no matter the difference of opinion as to the meaning, doesn’t inspire nobility in men. It inspires covetousness. It inspires greed. It inspires concupiscence. Pretty makes men want to OWN.

“It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity.”

40 years of women’s lib - FOURTY YEARS - are you KIDDING me? Women have been a commodity throughout history!!

“In industrialized societies like the US, where institutions formally frown on gender violence, behaviour belies official pronouncements: rap music insulting women as ‘whores’; a popular men’s magazine that celebrates gang rape and depicts female bodies being fed into meat grinders; sexual harassment of women trying to integrate into the armed forces; and societal pressures that induce young women to starve themselves or use technology to create ‘ideal’ bodies, often destroying their health in the process.”

Long after slavery was abolished in most of the world, many societies still treat women like chattel: Their shackles are poor education, economic dependence, limited political power, limited access to fertility control, harsh social conventions and inequality in the eyes of law. Violence is a key instrument used to keep these shackles on.”

Chattel (derived from the root: CATTLE).
Wife beating, celebrated in songs, proverbs and wedding ceremonies.
Honor rapes.
Honor killings.
Genital mutilation.
Dowry deaths.
Son preference.

“The ritual denunciation of women constitutes something on the order of a cultural constant, reaching back to the Old Testament as well as to Ancient Greece and extending through the fifteenth century. Found in Roman tradition, it dominates ecclesiastical writing, letters, sermons, theological tracts, discussions and compilations of canon law; scientific works, as part and parcel of biological, gynaecological, and medical knowledge; and philosophy. The discourse of misogyny runs like a rich vein throughout the breadth of medieval literature.”
Professor R. Howard Bloch, Yale

Let’s take a look back at the so-called “40 years of women’s liberation”:

1848
The first women’s rights convention is held in Seneca Falls, New York. After 2 days of discussion and debate, 68 women and 32 men sign a Declaration of Sentiments, which outlines grievances and sets the agenda for the women’s rights movement. A set of 12 resolutions is adopted calling for equal treatment of women and men under the law and voting rights for women.

1869
May ~ Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton form the National Woman Suffrage Association. The primary goal of the organization is to achieve voting rights for women by means of a Congressional amendment to the Constitution.

November ~ Lucy Stone, Henry Blackwell, and others form the American Woman Suffrage Association. This group focuses exclusively on gaining voting rights for women through amendments to individual state constitutions.

December 10 ~ The territory of Wyoming passes the first women’s suffrage law. The following year, women begin serving on juries in the territory.

1890
The National Women Suffrage Association and the American Women Suffrage Association merge to form the National American Woman Suffrage Association (NAWSA). As the movement’s mainstream organization, NAWSA wages state-by-state campaigns to obtain voting rights for women.

1893
Colorado is the first state to adopt an amendment granting women the right to vote. Utah and Idaho follow suit in 1896, Washington State in 1910, California in 1911, Oregon, Kansas, and Arizona in 1912, Alaska and Illinois in 1913, Montana and Nevada in 1914, New York in 1917; Michigan, South Dakota, and Oklahoma in 1918.

1903
The National Women’s Trade Union League (WTUL) is established to advocate for improved wages and working conditions for women.

1919
The federal woman suffrage amendment, originally written by Susan B. Anthony and introduced in Congress in 1878, is passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate. It is then sent to the states for ratification.

1920
The Women’s Bureau of the Department of Labor is formed to collect information about women in the workforce and safeguard good working conditions for women.

August 26 ~ The 19th Amendment to the Constitution, granting women the right to vote, is signed into law by Secretary of State Bainbridge Colby.

1935
Mary McLeod Bethune organizes the National Council of Negro Women, a coalition of black women’s groups that lobbies against job discrimination, racism, and sexism.

1936
The federal law prohibiting the dissemination of contraceptive information through the mail is modified and birth control information is no longer classified as obscene. Throughout the 1940s and 50s, birth control advocates are engaged in numerous legal suits.

1955
The Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the first lesbian organization in the United States, is founded. Although DOB originated as a social group, it later developed into a political organization to win basic acceptance for lesbians in the United States.

1960
The Food and Drug Administration approves birth control pills.

1961
President John Kennedy establishes the President’s Commission on the Status of Women and appoints Eleanor Roosevelt as chairwoman. The report issued by the Commission in 1963 documents substantial discrimination against women in the workplace and makes specific recommendations for improvement, including fair hiring practices, paid maternity leave, and affordable child care.

1963
Betty Friedan publishes her highly influential book The Feminine Mystique, which describes the dissatisfaction felt by middle-class American housewives with the narrow role imposed on them by society. The book becomes a best-seller and galvanizes the modern women’s rights movement.

June 10 ~ Congress passes the Equal Pay Act, making it illegal for employers to pay a woman less than what a man would receive for the same job.

1964
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act bars discrimination in employment on the basis of race and sex. At the same time it establishes the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) to investigate complaints and impose penalties.

1966
The National Organization for Women (NOW) is founded by a group of feminists including Betty Friedan. The largest women’s rights group in the U.S., NOW seeks to end sexual discrimination, especially in the workplace, by means of legislative lobbying, litigation, and public demonstrations.

1967
Executive Order 11375 expands President Lyndon Johnson’s affirmative action policy of 1965 to cover discrimination based on gender. As a result, federal agencies and contractors must take active measures to ensure that women as well as minorities enjoy the same educational and employment opportunities as white males.

1968
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission rules that sex-segregated help wanted ads in newspapers are illegal. This ruling is upheld in 1973 by the Supreme Court, opening the way for women to apply for higher-paying jobs hitherto open only to men.

1969
California becomes the first state to adopt a “no fault” divorce law, which allows couples to divorce by mutual consent. By 1985 every state has adopted a similar law. Laws are also passed regarding the equal division of common property.

1970
In Schultz v. Wheaton Glass Co., a U.S. Court of Appeals rules that jobs held by men and women need to be “substantially equal” but not “identical” to fall under the protection of the Equal Pay Act. An employer cannot, for example, change the job titles of women workers in order to pay them less than men.

1972
March 22 ~ The Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) is passed by Congress and sent to the states for ratification. Originally drafted by Alice Paul in 1923, the amendment reads: “Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.” The amendment died in 1982 when it failed to achieve ratification by a minimum of 38 states.

June 23 ~ Title IX of the Education Amendments bans sex discrimination in schools. It states: “No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.” As a result of Title IX, the enrollment of women in athletics programs and professional schools increases dramatically.

1974
The Equal Credit Opportunity Act prohibits discrimination in consumer credit practices on the basis of sex, race, marital status, religion, national origin, age, or receipt of public assistance.

In Corning Glass Works v. Brennan, the U.S. Supreme Court rules that employers cannot justify paying women lower wages because that is what they traditionally received under the “going market rate.” A wage differential occurring “simply because men would not work at the low rates paid women” is unacceptable.

1976
The first marital rape law is enacted in Nebraska, making it illegal for a husband to rape his wife.

1978
The Pregnancy Discrimination Act bans employment discrimination against pregnant women. Under the Act, a woman cannot be fired or denied a job or a promotion because she is or may become pregnant, nor can she be forced to take a pregnancy leave if she is willing and able to work.

1984
EMILY’s List (Early Money Is Like Yeast) is established as a financial network for pro-choice Democratic women running for national political office. The organization makes a significant impact on the increasing numbers of women elected to Congress.

1986
Meritor Savings Bank v. Vinson, the Supreme Court finds that sexual harassment is a form of illegal job discrimination.

1994
The Violence Against Women Act tightens federal penalties for sex offenders, funds services for victims of rape and domestic violence, and provides for special training of police officers.

2003
In Nevada Department of Human Resources v. Hibbs, the Supreme Court rules that states can be sued in federal court for violations of the Family Leave Medical Act.

2005
In Jackson v. Birmingham Board of Education, the Supreme Court rules that Title IX, which prohibits discrimination based on sex, also inherently prohibits disciplining someone for complaining about sex-based discrimination. It further holds that this is the case even when the person complaining is not among those being discriminated against.

2009
President Obama signed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Restoration Act, which allows victims of pay discrimination to file a complaint with the government against their employer within 180 days of their last paycheck. Previously, victims (most often women) were only allowed 180 days from the date of the first unfair paycheck. This Act is named after a former employee of Goodyear who alleged that she was paid 15–40% less than her male counterparts, which was later found to be accurate.

So, 1849 to 2012, 164 years of liberation. Not 40. And all of it was FOUGHT for. None of it given freely.

“Today the number of women registered to vote exceeds the number of registered men by 8.3 million. In addition, women can not only expect to receive unbiased consideration by university admissions offices, but they are the majority gender of enrolled students. They can even earn their own income and not have to turn it over to their husbands. As strange as this sounds now, it was not always the case.

While stumbling blocks such as equal pay and achieving the presidency remain to be conquered, women are in a good position to do so. Women’s History Month, which has been observed nationally since 1987 (and as Women’s History Week from 1981-1986), celebrates the trailblazers who helped women to secure a more equal place in society.”

“Even back in 6th grade I hated the “hot” Olivia Newton John and felt sorry for her that she had to debase herself in such a way.”

I find this statement disingenuous, at BEST. Eleven and twelve year old boys simply do not comprehend that Sandy debased (his term) herself for Danny, let alone"hate” the debasement or feel sorry for her.

“First and foremost, many beautiful women, whatever the state of their souls, still wished to project a public innocence and virtue.  And that combination of beauty and innocence is what I define as pretty.”

Okay…. so it’s acceptable for women to act like harlots in private as long as they “project a public innocence and virtue.”??!!  Hypocrite.

The population of these United States is currently approximately 312,832,000, more than half of which are women. In Mr. Archbold’s glorious 1950s (we’ll use 1952) the population was 157,552,740. That’s a 99.98% increase in population in the last 60 years.

Times have changed. Attitudes have changed. I’ll admit that many girls and young women today look and act rather slatternly. I don’t care for it myself, and I’m no prude!

I, however, REFUSE to belittle women by telling them how to look. No matter how the insult is couched, how the degradation is sugarcoated, it is still degrading and insulting to imply that women are less because they do not live up to Mr. Archbold’s hypocritical, (double) standard of femininity.

@Brett Schlottmann - Thank YOU so much for that. I think it’s important that many of the people here who are completely ignorant to the women’s movement and feminism have access to such a history of the movement. It’s unfortunate that they are completely blind here (the women especially) to the problematic way in which the author here has not only reduced women to a disgusting binary based on Christian “virtues” - he also endangers women by encouraging pretty over hot - both of which turn a woman’s sexuality into a commodity that is the entire sum of her worth in the eyes of religion. People who support this movement by CHOOSING to aspire to these values in their own life are fine (feminism, after all, is the right for a woman to CHOOSE for herself). The problem is when these same people belittle everyone who is different from them, calling me and others like me on this forum sluts simply because we do not dress like they do. The funny thing is, I never once said that I dress like a slut, I only said that I do not dress conservatively. These religious women, have completely subscribed to this mentality and thus labeled me and the other feminists in here as !@#$%.

Men play a BIG role! How are women to “know better?” Fathers (in general) are dropping the ball these days. It’s their job to assure the daughters of their value. ...coming from a girl raised by a bad dad. Thankful that my Grandparents introduced me to a heavenly Father and I finally was able to understand my value.

Love is…. And it always will be. Father God Protect my children and Come quickly.Amen

@Leah T. - can you please elaborate on the “value” you have come to understand in yourself?

@athenian_oracle who writes:  “the entire sum of her worth in the eyes of religion.”    Religion is man-made.  Christianity is not a religion but is a relationship with the person of Christ.  Christian women find their “worth” by looking at the cross.  She values and places how she is seen first by Christ and ahead of what men think.

Since everyone has conveniently ignored my comments on the importance of a healthy sexual relationship (Having a healthy sexual life is just as important to an adult’s psychological health as having a healthy emotional life), I’ll take a stab at this one again. The Catholic church, in the way it regulates married couples’ relations in the bedroom, is completely patriarchal and detrimental to a woman’s sexual and emotional health. And Lector, Christianity is defined as a religion… unless we’re going to start re-inventing the English language to support our arguments now…

40 years of women’s liberation didn’t take us from being ‘pretty’ to ‘hot’.  The truth is, both ‘pretty’ and ‘hot’ are both commodities to be sold to men.  The demand for pretty has decreased, and the demand for hot has increased, and women are striving to meet demand.  The true problem is rooted in the fact that women are shaping themselves to meet a standard created by the world for them, instead of accepting themselves the way that they are.  A standard of pretty is just as much of a problem as a standard of hot is.  The goal with pretty is, as you say, to create an image of purity that is alluring to certain men.  The goal of hot is to create an image of a the woman as a sexual aggressor, which is alluring to other men.  Your real problem with hot probably lies in the church’s distaste for seeing women as sexually aggressive.  And by saying that ‘pretty’ brings out the best in men and ‘hot’ brings out the worst, you are defining the mindset that caused me to eventually leave the church: that women are responsible for men’s sexual sin.  Men are helpless to fight against their sexual urges, so any woman who causes a man to lust, has sinned.  This mindset means that if a woman turns you on, they are the sinner, not you.  I experienced that mindset over and over again growing up, to the point where I couldn’t wear the same clothing as my friends my age, because my breasts were larger.  In the same exact clothing, they were pretty, but I was hot.  The fact that sex sells has nothing to do with women’s lib.  The whole ‘pretty’ thing is just another dance around marriage, and eventually, sex.  You’re just trying to do it in a way that won’t send you to hell.  Some women are pretty, and some are hot.  There is nothing wrong with enjoying them both.

Thank you from a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints (Mormon). This is exactly what I have been noticing for some time but have had difficulty putting into words.

@athenian_oracle Do you have children?  And if so, do you have dreams for them? Thank you @Lector for explaining this. I do find my worth by looking at the cross. I am not Catholic by the way. My faith is not summed up as you see religion.  Atheism is a religion isn’t it? I live according to how the Holy Spirit reveals the truths to me in the Bible. Not how others translate it necessarily. My faith has also evolved over the years. I still question things, I listen to other’s opinions and I don’t judge you or anyone for not believing the same way I do. I do not try to push my beliefs on others. I will not try to convince someone that God exists. I choose to be an encourager. In my beliefs, it’s already decided that not everyone will be saved, go to heaven, live forever. In my belief, hell is the separation from God. I’ve been to hell already. I didn’t like it much. And may I ask why you “hate” the Catholic religion so much?  If atheism is on the rise as you state, why do you feel so compelled to be hateful to others who think differently as you? Why do you come to a Catholic site to scream at people?

“Women! Aspire to be valued by men!”

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I was watching one of the wedding dress shows the other night and couldn’t believe all the brides wanted to be sexy….when did that start?  Also looking around and seeing 14 year olds dressed up like strippers at the mall…don’t cry to me when they are pregnant at 16…

I have one daughter and three sons.  I’ve taught them all that what is on the inside reflects on the outside.  Two of my son’s have found beautiful women to marry who are sweet and charming and intelligent. They deserve each other.  My daughter has been taught that she is a beautiful, intelligent person which makes her happy and someone anyone would want to be around because she makes others feel good about themselves.  She has no desire to attract young men with what she is wearing, she wants to be respected and enjoy the company of a young man who knows he is valued as a person as well.  My youngest son has so many good examples in his life.  I think if a child is brought up to respect themselves and honor their precious bodies they have been blessed with then they can’t help but turn out beautiful or “pretty.”

@Leah - Yes, I do have children. I teach them that God is something people made up so that they could attribute most of the world’s wonders and problems to the design of an omnipotent being. Organized religion, for the most part, is a dangerous man-made creation that has been used to justify many horrific crimes against humanity, including women. My issue with the Catholic Church especially is how its dictatorship over activities that go on “in the bedroom” of married Catholic couples is the spiritual equivalent of female genital mutilation. My issues with the author here is that he has taken a much larger issue, boiled it down to a binary, and placed all of the “blame” on women. Other women here, who agree with the author, have then taken the author’s mantle and perpetuated the binary by calling all women who do not dress conservatively sluts. This has gone on to be further problematized by comments from people like Katie’s, which have confused causation and correlation, making horribly judgemental accusations about promiscuity and dress. What is her definition of “dressed like a stripper?” To the most conservative, a skirt above the knee is “slutty.” The same problematic causal relationship was mobilized by Mary who tried to say that people who shop at Victoria’s Secret are the reason why abortions and teen pregnancies are on the rise. How does shopping for a luxury bra make someone more likely to engage in such activities? Better yet, how does shopping in a store like that make someone a slut? I buy half of my bras from there - the only person who sees me in them is my husband. To further problematize the nasty stereotype, I am also a mother who has a career and enjoys a fair division of labour in my household. The fact that all of this is originating from the so-called “religious” people here is my general problem with religion. And why am I here? Because if you’re going to spew crap like this in a public forum, you need to be prepared to hear from the group who Pat would like very much to oppress.

I think it’s time everyone takes a step back and realizes women have this amazing super power. They can think for themselves! Men of the world, we love you, really, but I think you might understand how put out women are by the constant dialogue, by both men and women, to define what a woman should be. There are millions of different kinds of women out there, and diversity is what makes our world amazing. There is no single cookie cutter of what a man or woman should be. This author has good intentions, but I refuse to be told, yet again, that my value is determined my how men perceive me.

@athenian-oracle, your comments mimic the comments you oppose. you are just as judgmental. truth is, we are all judgmental to a point!  we’re all human. we are entitled to our opinions and our beliefs. you’d do better to post on a different site. if you are trying to change minds you are going about it the wrong way. I saw you mention that you are an educator. Is this how you teach? Wow. You’ve got it wrong dear.

You can view this in many different senerios. I for one PREFER the “Pretty”  I have always been referred fo as the “pretty” even by my husband. At times I have been known to even be offended, but it isnt because I was pretty but because I waned the “Hot” factor. Bottom line is you are exactly right , we as society have taken what should be the special and sacred and moved it into something that can be presented as ugly,and completely inappropriate behaviors. As a woman however, it is nice to be that Jennifer Aniston,Megan Fox, Kate Hudson vs the Meg Ryan,Julia Roberts,etc.  but for me I would like to be viewed as both. I think you can be considered as “hot” and “pretty” based on your presentation of yourself.

@Rachel, what a great statement!  I don’t think that the author was exactly saying that our value is determined by how men perceive us, but I totally agree that each of us is different! Each of us is special in God’s eyes! How we dress is not a determination of our worth either!!
This is the kind of thought provoking comment that I like to read. Tired of all the attacks on each other and one’s beliefs! take a hint @athenian-oracle

This is so true. We struggle with it everyday, especially when shopping for clothes for my nieces that range in ages from 4 to 17. All the clothes are “mini-hooker” style. There are few choices that don’t show your butt cleavage or navel. I’m glad you were bold enough to vocalize this and I too hope pretty and innocence comes back.

I find this article offensive. I am a 24 year old successful, well paid ENGINEER that works with men who have enormous egos everyday. I don’t have time or energy to worry about being hot, I am too busy trying to prove that my brain works the same as theirs. The purpose of the “women’s liberation” that you speak of has NOTHING to do with how “pretty” or “hot” women are. The purpose of women’s liberation is the ideal that women are EQUAL to men. We fought for things such as the right to vote, the right be paid as much as men, freedom to make our own choices (including how we dress) and the right to be seen as an equal to men!  This article is ridiculous and should be offensive to every single woman on Earth.  Women are so much more than how we look on the outside or the current “fashion statement”. Shame on YOU for objectifying women.

Hmmm…in sixth grade, you understood the concept of a woman “debasing” herself? Interesting. And at 11 years old, you “felt sorry for” Oliva Newton John? Sounds like you became judgmental at quite a young age. I think your article is more about how you personally view and/or judge women than about the decline of aspiring to be “pretty.”

All I can say is THANK YOU!!! Ladies really need to hear/read this!

Well said. I’m not sure I even buy into “pretty”... I think maybe something even deeper might be valued more in the long run. Pretty can be destroyed or lost. But I do like your contrast.

Love your article, although I believe there are still ‘pockets’ of pretty left in this world. Most of the women I know aren’t just pretty, they are beautiful. I say beautiful because it comes from the inside out. I could name 40 women just off the top of my head that I consider pretty. They know who they are, they have a purpose and many of them are ‘stay at home moms’ (one of the hardest jobs on earth). The women I know have clear standards and values, they volunteer at the library, school and 4th of July. They play vollyball, climb the rec-center walls with their teenage daughters (who by the way are just as beautiful as their moms) maybe you are right pretty is hard to find because you are either ‘beautiful’ or hot.

Awesome article!  This should be a must read for all teen girls. So tired of society sucking the “special” out of life.  Pretty is one of those special things.

On one hand, he’s right. It’s kinda bad to see women looking like she’s headed for the club ALL the time. In the middle of the afternoon. It’s stupid. It gives the impression as just another gold-digging chick looking for a man for the night or a wallet for a while. On another, he’s dead wrong.I’m ‘experienced’ as hell, but don’t dress like it in everyday life. He may even call how I dress… “pretty”. He’s playing the Madonna/!@#$% card, and it’s frankly quite tiring. He’s assuming that a book reads like it’s cover. God was never that arrogant. Christ respected the prostitutes he ministered to as people, and I sense that his respect for them made them receptive to His message rather than the other way around. And those ladies of the evening were NOT pretty.

I don’t aspire to be pretty or hot - - I like to be where the two meet: Classic. Gorgeous. Beautiful.

*T*

My thoughts on this have to do from a female perspective. It was great to live in the innocence of pretty back in the day, so many things that made being pretty easier. Easier to be a girl, easier to allow men to lead, easier to walk towards a future with a guy on one hand.

However, I remember the hot girls, those were the girls the guys all swooned over.  Some of my girlfriends were “hot” naturally had multiple boyfriends very early, married young and, sad to say, had as many husbands.  Here is another perspective to consider and I am not a womens lib’er as much as I make a statement of where our roles are now versus back when being pretty was a strong part of the culture of being. 

Back then, women stayed home, the men wanted us raising babies and washing their undewear. For every pretty girl, we were not allowed culturally to work, be smart openly or go after degrees in anything. The culture of pretty was good and lost yes, but in that women were chastised for being smart and having vocational goals.

  We had to deny our intellegence to maintain being pretty. Then, when the season of pretty passed as it often does for most, we were considered someones housewife, wife or mom and not ourselves with dreams, aspirations and goals of our own.

So, yes, I agree pretty is a pleasant goal to be reached, but pretty and hot are, in my opinion, another reason why just being pretty to men in a culture is not enough humanity. The female gender should be allowed to be pretty as they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” and themselves allowed to pursue all the same vocational goals the men are with a choice to pursue a life of work, not just be desirable to men by denying their own goals to allow men to men. Some of those men did not succeed at being guys and that culture forced women to have to put up with some pretty bad behavior on the guys side. 

Pretty or Hot?  Smart or denied intellegence. I think our culture has changed for women and the desire to be hot has to do with women being tired of having to deny who they are to be only the “:little woman” at home.
I think the culture of hot right now will eventually bring a balance our way as things to ebb and flo back to simple and that balance will be at least a decade or two of women and men in roles where the men are understanding of what hot is to them and what pretty is also. I think hot has come so women can declare that they are people too and can make it on their own if need be.

I am weary of being in a spot where I have had to and still continue to allow men to lead in everything. Why shoutld there even have to be a choice and a role we have to play. I know men typically function better in that type of role, however, I come back to why cant we all just get along. Accept one another as Gods perfect handiwork and learn that sometimes men and women both can do things that the other than one role or another. I think their is a balance and we as humans must work together to undestand what that balance is and aspire together to make it happen relationally.

Bottom line. If you asked Madona or any of our hot role models. I am sure they would eventually say it is exhausting to keep it up, if you asked the pretty girls, they may say they understand that beauty does fade, if you ask the men, some are addicted to females, not just hot and the ones who are more lucid in this understand it is a discipline to pick the right girl.  At the end of the day, lets celebrate that women in this culture have a choice now, and that like anything else the hot chick will pass. the culture of hot will ebb to some new thing and that we as a culture will find out way to simpler ways as we discover how exhausting keeping hot up is…. a few thoughts for the early morning hours

@Leah T. - I know I’m not going to change any minds here. I just think it’s important when such misogynistic attitudes are published in a public forum that posters and supporters need to hear some facts from the other side - especially when the poster is so ignorant of the movements he belittles. For example, “It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity.” when in fact, the movement has been ongoing for more than a century.

I’m sorry, am I judgmental because I disagree with the author, or because I don’t appreciate being called a slut by other posters here? If you would like to engage with me on a specific issue I have raised, please feel free to do so. Instead of calling me a slut, you have decided to tell me that you think I perform poorly at my job. Thanks for that. I’m guessing that your mother probably taught you that if you don’t like what someone else thinks, you should try to insult them on some personal level.

I definitely agree that the pressure to be “hot” is too much, for both young and old. But the author seems to be really hung up on this “pretty” = “innocence” thing. Does he want all girls to grow up to be perpetually “innocent” women? What about being smart, educated, confident, and strong? He jabs at the women’s liberation movement, but I feel that his “Madonna vs. !@#$%” type thinking just shows that we still have a ways to go. Modesty—for both sexes—should be about healthy self-respect, not fear or shame of sexuality.

Beauty is and always will be subjective. I don’t understand the constant obsession with clothing. Put two girls in the same outfit and one (perhaps thin) will be pretty, while the other ( perhaps more developed and curvy) will be immodest. Teach our girls to have self respect and the rest will follow
Oh, and here’s a novel idea. Why don’t we teach our boys to respect women no matter what they wear. There is a great need for more of this those articles.

@atheniahn_oracle:  Your comments are expected and not surprising.  You have previously stated you are a non-believer and that the Bible is a myth.  You know better than documented, eyewitness acounts and historical manuscripts.  Jesus, the gospel and His shed blood at Calvary are all pixie dust.  All the while, you devote so much time attacking what you say doesn’t exist.  Your premise is that Christian women who thus follow Christ are ill informed, “innocent” and allow themselves to be controlled by men.  Your problem, athenian_oraacle, is that Christian women possess something you do not—a discerning Spirit.  That Spirit is not their own but a spiritual gift of the Lord come down to live inside them.  Christian women are able to distinguish quite easily from the men you dislke from men who follow Jesus as they do.  Christian women know the difference between men with a worldview and those with a biblical worldview.  What is confounding you is that Christian women know they have already been liberated in Christ.  You are still fighting a battle that Christian women have already won.

@Lector - Your problematic claims are typical of one who is arguing for an affinity group that is flawed. You claim that “women are able to distinguish quite easily from the men you dislke from men who follow Jesus as they do” implying that it is easy for Christian women to differentiate between “true” religious men and impostors who attend church, believe the are following the word of God, and then twist it in order to do harm to others. If you cannot agree that there are harmful people who believe they are just as “biblical” as yourself, then you are delusional.

@athenian_oracle:  That’s why you don’t “get it.”  Romans 1 speaks about people of your persuasion.  You have been given over to what Paul calls a “seared conscience.”  You live under Satanic deception and his spirit has played you for a very foolish and unwise person.  You have already denied Christ and have hardened your heart.  Of course there are imposters in any church.  Satan roams in all places including every church sowing seeds of discontent, disharmony and disbelief among all people.  A believing Christian woman has already been blessed with the spiritual gift of discernment (among other spiritual gifts guaranteed her in Scripture which you don’t believe anyway).  As a result, she is able to spot an imposter quite easily in 2 minutes.  It’s her gift granted by God.  I know you would like to have this gift also, but your heart has become hardened so the Lord cannot enter into you.  You prefer your own liberation, -by yourself.  You do not wish anyone to control you.  You have made yourself a god.  You don’t understand what Christian women have which provides them joy and peace in their life that you can only harbor bitterness and hostility against.  You think as the world does.  Christian women think as Christ and this makes you angry.  You want what they have except Satan has blinded you to truth,—the Truth not being some thing—but a person —that of Jesus the Lord.  Please admit to the audience that this “Pretty or Hot” thing is really only a ruse for you sow discord among Catholic and Christian women.  It’s not happening.

“First and foremost, many beautiful women, whatever the state of their souls, still wished to project a public innocence and virtue”.  It sounds like the author is saying, “you might not really be innocent or virtuous but as long as that’s what you project to the world than you are in fact pretty”.  That to me is the opposite of beauty. A “pretty” woman is a woman who is herself at all times, no matter what anyone else thinks. A “pretty” woman doesn’t have to pretend to be “innocent” if in fact she is not. There is nothing pretty about trying to project an image to the world that is not congruent with who you really are. I will teach my daughters to be themselves, to be strong, capable, smart women. And my sons will learn to not judge and classify a woman based on how “innocent” she appears to be.

@Melaniedawn - Awesome! Your children have an excellent role model and teacher for a mother!

I can’t believe this thread is still going.  Oh, wait, I can.  If Mr. Archbold doesn’t stop it, it will probably continue for decades like a court case in a Dickens novel.
/
Mr. Archbold, without meaning to (I am sure) you have done a great contribution to the porno and rape culture, by taking it upon yourself to begin and invite speculation about how women ought to look when appearing in public.  Without speaking of true virtue—focusing instead on its appearance—you offer your heart’s desires for how women should look, how their eyes should shine, and how (according to commenters) they should blush.  You perpetuate the idea that a woman’s worth is fundamentally how she pleases a man who is gazing upon her.  THIS IS WRONG. A woman’s worth comes from her Creator, and it is His to decide how he pleases her.  A woman who pleases her Creator may or may not look “pretty” to a man.  But a man is an idolator who says that he is the judge of her value.
/
You have done all this in a completely ignorant historical framework (we have only JUST started encouraging hotness?  Really?  And women’s liberation is the reason men mistreat women?  Because it didn’t happen AT ALL before that?)  You do it without moderating comments or commenting further so that any insane burqa-pusher who spends their days thinking about how terrible trashy women have ruined the world can come here and feel at home. 
/
I have to challenge you: Please, ask yourself if, when your article encourages the “OMG! Those slutty girls in Mass make it impossible for me to think!!” commenters and the “If a woman doesn’t respect herself it is no wonder a man treats her badly” line of thinking IN THE HUNDREDS, you have achieved the Good you probably intended by writing it?

One consolation right now is that there are a number of fierce, devout and discerning mothers posting their responses to you.  Hopefully that means my boys will be able to find wives who are beautiful from within, who demand to be seen only as beloved and joyful creatures of G-d and receive that from my sons in return.

Pat: If you got off this dichotomy of “pretty” vs. “hot” we might agree on something, but as long as you divide women in “nice girls” that must be respected and “sluts” that can be used, you will irritate women like me.

Just tell me, is the woman in this photo “pretty” or “hot”

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpais/subnotas/185312-57345-2012-01-12.html

Not pretty, not by your definition, nor hot.  But a woman to be reckoned with, and a good example to point out to young girls “This woman is the Head of State of a country, and has been reelected in a landslide.  Do you see how she is dressed”?  By the way, she wears black because she is a widow.

Remember the Bond girls?  Those disposable girl who were there to be bedded by 007 and forgotten?  Your viewpoint does not bring something to oppose them with.  But feminism has brought about Fiona Glennanne of “Burn Notice” who is the only woman in Michael Westen’s life, and his trusted backup - and no one think of Michael as deprived nor self-sacrificing for statying with only one woman. People think him wise.

As I said in response to the article about ogling, it is frustrating to hear women complain about ogling as a form of disrespect (though I completely stand with them in this complaint, ogling is indeed a form of disrespect), while they themselves could not care less about the way their own style of dress affects the men who see them on a daily basis (I am thinking of a particular style of clothing that has become fashionable, wrote more about it on the other post). Demanding respect, but not giving it. No doubt many women ask themselves, “What should we care what men want?” Well, indeed. But then - why should we men care what you want? That attitude of cold indifference can both in directions. Respect, as well, is a two-way street.

Someone wrote, “Women! Aspire to be valued by men!” I wonder if this person sees how often this exact message, in reverse, is issued by women to men.

“It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity.” ??? State your opinion about what you think “pretty” is and what you think “hot” is, but please don’t state opinions as facts, because you are only weakening your cause to “bring pretty back.” Also, you say you’re not “idealizing another age and I have no illusions about the virtues of our grandparents,” but that’s exactly the feel I get from reading your article. How about you butt out of our business and give us a little more credit.

Such an incredible article. The truth though in that last statement is that we never truthfully know who Miley Cyrus or any of the other celebrities that you targeted in this article really are. I believe in what you are claiming one hundred and fifty percent but I also believe that Miley and Taylor both make mistakes. Big ones. Just like you and me. And we should believe in them, in their choices….in their image. Just like we believe in ourselves. We are only as good as society allows us to be. So lets allow Miley and Megan and Lindsey into our hearts because they belong there just like every other celebrity out there. Mistake filled or not. They deserve to be loved on. And believed in. Again, incredible article with an amazing premise.
You can find my views and opinion on this article here: www.thellielife.blogspot.com

The key word in this blog is “projected.”. The author refers to a happier time when women projected innocence (even if they weren’t) and men felt a need to protect and preserve that innocence. Perhaps the author is from an earlier generati…on than mine. In my “era” innocence was easily corrupted and taken advantage of; preyed on and stolen. I don’t think I am alone in my experience; certainly not if ANY of the stories about pedophile priest are true and I am sure a great percentage of them are. Because innocence became a weakness, women began projecting strength. Because too often women’s sexual decisions were forcibly taken away from them, along with their innocence,they have taken back the power to make those decisions themselves and project their sexual freedom (yeah, it’s in direct opposition to the illusion of innocence) it may be interpreted as loose and/or immoral but it won’t be exploited.

I see. So, given your examples and explanations, your definition of a “pretty” woman is one who is meek, demure, submissive, and lacking confidence. Oh, how I bet you DO yearn for those days.

As long as society continues to tell women that their physical beauty is their only worth, women’s liberation is going to continue to be set back. How about you rewrite this article about how women should want to be seen as empowered and intelligent instead of objectified. Or is an intelligent woman not “pretty”? Because I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told that I should stick to being a nice, pretty girl instead of being a smart, pretty girl.

I hate to tell you, but the pretty, submissive, barefoot and pregnant women you’re looking for is no longer relevant or required in today’s society. Stop perpetuating horrible female stereotypes. Society is already male dominated and women are constantly objectified for their appearance over their intelligence or qualities. Saying they should be pretty and innocent instead of having confidence in their gender and sexuality is archaic. I’d say you should feel ashamed, but I have a feeling you wouldn’t be able to recognize the emotion beneath the smug, condescension this article reeks of.

Boy, I find what you wrote completely sexist and a tad offensive! Who cares what you think is pretty or hot? Thank God we as women dont have to pass YOUR definition of what YOU determine is pretty or hot.  This may come as a shock to you, but maybe some of the women you portray as “trying to be hot” see themselves as pretty.  Yep, lets all just teach our daughters that it doesnt matter how they see themselves in the mirror…what is important is how MEN see us. Do they think we are pretty or hot?  How about this? Who gives a flip what they think?  How about we teach our daughters to be comfortable in their own skin and to determine for themselves what they want to be…regardless of what you or any other man thinks or is attracted too.

I understand his point. I agree with his point. However, I also agree that his word choice could definitely have been better. There’s a generational gap here. “Innocent,” “pretty,” and “hot” by his generational definition do not have the same connotations as they do in this generation. I don’t think that he meant that women should all drop out of college, throw away their secular dreams, and be a Stepford wife. As was said in a previous comment, I agree that a better replacement term for Pat to get his point across could be “self-respecting.” My husband calls me hot, and I take it as a compliment. He also calls me ambitious, beautiful, wonderful, pretty, intelligent, and driven, and I also take those as compliments. I am who I am. I’m comfortable with myself and that’s a major part of what my husband loves about me. Like I said, there’s just a generational definition gap here.

This reminds me of a Golden Girls quote from Bea when Blanche was reminiscing about men being more gentlemen and chivalrous. Bea responded with: How far back do you want to go, Blanche? Do you still want to be able to vote?!

I agree with some points of this article. However, we can also turn the tables around on men, and say that there’s a death of being a gentleman.

In a perfect world, men would still be gentlemen, women would still be—in the author’s description—“pretty”, and they both would mutually respect each others’ intelligence, worth, and capabilities.

That has never been the case though. Instead, we have a world where a significant amount of males hold woman to unfair standards. A woman should be able to be as sexual, dominant, etc as she wants to be without men judging them for that. If men treated women like that from the beginning, there would never have been a need for the woman’s liberation movement, and we would now be closer to the perfect world I described before.

Don’t demean the women’s liberation movement. It was a very much needed movement as we, thankfully, now have a lot more women who are seeking education and careers than ever before. Things just have to settle now—and that requires cooperation from both men and women. Men can’t expect women to be innocent; they can’t expect them to be “hot”. They have to just expect them to be a good person. And the same expectation should be be had by women of men.

I totally agree with what you are saying and I am a woman and a mother of 2 girls.  I also have no issue with your definition of “pretty” and “hot”.  Like all oped columns written, people - usually the strong feminist ladies - see it as sexist and hone in on one specific comment and miss the whole message being delivered.  I myself don’t care what men think of me, but I do care about what my Heaven Father thinks of me.  I would rather be of an “innocent” behavior and mind, than a “Hot” behavior and mind. Raising 2 daughters I work very hard to make sure they know and love themselves and letting others see and know them, as the author says is “pretty”, not just by men, but by humanity.  However, I would not use Taylor Swift as a current “pretty” (have you heard her mouth of camera - she’s got a closet sailor’s mouth), but I would lean more towards Selena Gomez.  I would rather my children have the grace, demure and pretty of Audrey Hepburn than the hotness of Marilyn Monroe, anyday.

Pat:  Your problem is that you contrapose “pretty” and “hot” as if those were the only two possible choices given women.  And from what I know of pretty - I grew up then, and I recall the condescencion, the patronizing that men indulged and inflicted on women they supposedly loved (how can you love someone you despise and think as inferior?)  I remember the “irrational” tags to our andvancing any arguments, the superior smiles, the ‘do not bother your pretty little head aobut it”, the “you come to to college to get not an MA, or a MS, but a Mrs.”  You may idealize those days.  They make me want to vomit.

If those were the two choices, I would choose hot, rather than a floormat, given some pretty words and being mocked for being irrational and emotional, and not urderstanding things as a man did.

Fortunately, thatns to fenibism, I know that thsoe are not the only two choices.  There is no more “Betty of Veronica” It is now time to consider Velma Dinkley. Not hot, but not a pathetic helpess creature needing a man to be safe (against other men).

You want to takl popular culture?  Fine, here are examples of women who do not fit your stereotypes

Samantha Carter of Stargate SG1. Talk about conservatively dressed! Only her head and hands showed, the rest under baggy clothes. And hardly helpless.

Ziva David and Abby Sciutto of NCIS.

Fiona Glennanne of “Burn Notice”

Elizabeth Burke of “White Collar”

Juliet of “Psych”

Please try to tell us how those women fit your stereotypes.  And add the real life Sandra Day O’Connor, or Condoleeza Rice, Cristina Fernandez de Kircher, Michele Bachelet, and Dilma Rousseff.
T

“First and foremost, many beautiful women, whatever the state of their souls, still wished to project a public innocence and virtue.”

Project….  This has been on my mind lately. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but I beg to differ.  True beauty….true ‘pretty’ isn’t a projection, an image; it comes from within. It comes from being transparent, from seeking to live in truth, to be the same no matter the situation or the company in which we find ourselves.  True beauty and ‘pretty’ is about an honest and kind nature. It’s about a generous nature. It’s about gentleness.  It’s about dignity and knowing one’s worth.

I don’t think women in our society just decided one day that they wanted to change their image.  The image changed to reflect the change within.

It seems the author would prefer a return to a more hypocritical society in America that is comfortable using women’s sexuality to sell goods and services (commodities to be consumed) but have girls and women coexist projecting their “innocence” whether real or lost to inspire men to be better and live up to he knight in shining armor stereotype.
Women’s liberation was about deobjectifying he female body. Breasts are not inherently sex symbols but in our culture a mother who breastfeeds her baby (what could be more innocent?) is ogled or shunned or harassed for being indecent.
Feminists wanted equal pay for equal work, and equality for all. Today more young women are entering college (and graduating) then young men. Women are CEOs not just secretaries. We can be stay at home moms, or entrepreneurs we are not restricted to stifling expectations and he loss of autonomy that many women endured two generations ago. We have redefined womanhood and we enjoy our sexuality, our professional lives, and our freedom.
The passing fad of clothing trends as exemplified by pop stars like Kesha and Lady Gaga are nothing new just a new take on an old theme shock value and sex sells and when it stops selling they will fade away or morph into the next trend. When I was in high school the style was no make up, baggy boyish clothes, and the girls wanted to be thin, waifs like Kate Moss. No breasts or curves. It was called grunge and we thought it was “hot”. Trends have changed many times since the nineties and they will continue to change.
As far as hotness goes, my husband thinks I’m hot, and you know I do too. But I don’t need that validation because I’m also intelligent, self sufficient, strong, creative. Which also contribute I my hotness btw. Women aren’t sitting around waiting for our honor to be defended anymore. If a man doesnt honor her she honors herself enough to not waste her time.

Dawn S.: I love this part that you wrote: “As far as hotness goes, my husband thinks I’m hot, and you know I do too. But I don’t need that validation because I’m also intelligent, self sufficient, strong, creative. Which also contribute I my hotness btw. Women aren’t sitting around waiting for our honor to be defended anymore. If a man doesnt honor her she honors herself enough to not waste her time.” I especially love the last 2 sentences!

The most attractive attribute any human-being possesses is humility. The world is suffering from quite a deficiency in this area at the moment but still most are very attracted to someone who TRULY IS humble. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the “look at me I am great, beautiful(really hot) and can accomplish anything” mentality that gauges success in dollar signs.  When a women possesses a natural beauty and humility it is irresistible to most men who are looking for true love and a women to share their heart and home with. This rare women will help a man step up and be the very best man he can ever be and at the same time brings out the most beautiful God-given gifts a woman can ever possess. The search for this dream still exists, don’t settle. Amen.

Wow, the misogyny and entitlement are just dripping from this article. For someone who is a married straight male, you sure seem to hate women.

@ Audrey:

He gets it, and I get it as a “liberate from hatred of all that is male” female.

Male and female He created them. So that they may become one, not apart, but together. It’s not a contest, but a commitment.

@elm - you’ve got a great way of typing without saying anything. Why even address Audrey by name when you don’t address any of her comments?

@Dawn S and Lisa:  Your congeniality must be an acquired taste?  Even those few men you “might” have an ounce of respect for most likely feel they are irrelevant.

“That special combination of beauty and innocence, the pretty inspires men to protect and defend it.”

Really? There aren’t hundreds of plays & stories as far back as we can go about men chomping at the bit to be the first to take that “innocence”? To de-flower every pretty young thang they saw? Ridiculous.

And the fact that adult women play acted as CHILDREN & men liked that says a lot about men & none of it is good.

This is night & day away from the “Men like a little left to the imagination” & somehow is just grossly insulting.

Yep, it’s women’s fault that men today don’t value women any more. “Women should know better.” Shameful piece of writing, but great comment bait.

How about we institute the burka in America, boys? Then there would be no chance of your holy eyes having to look upon our offensive hips and breasts.

Oh gee, if you watch Asian films and dramas, you’ll get a mega-overdose of pretty…almost nauseatingly so. Pretty girls still exist.

You know, I just thought of something. Our twisted view of women today (eg- The Catholic Church hates women, women are so looked down upon!”) is really fueled by the loss of reverence we Christians (especially Protestant Fundamentalists) have for the Blessed Virgin Mary. God designed His plan for the salvation of the whole world to rest on a WOMAN who would fulfill what Eve could not. This woman was Mary! The Virgin Mary is the most venerable of all human beings ever-and she is a WOMAN!! If Reformed Christians began to give Mary the respect she deserves, the whole world’s view on women would shift, especially the secular view that God hates women, the Church hates women, etc.

Women are POWERFUL.
Heck, a WOMAN was the Mother of God!!!!! God Himself dwelt in a WOMAN!
Women were created for a special purpose, and we have lost that today in our society.
PLEASE NOTE: God did not choose a powerful modern day woman CEO to be the Mother of Our Lord Jesus, He chose a simple Hebrew girl. It is wonderful that women have such a strong hand in the business aspect of our society, but don’t make that the end! Obviously God does not judge a woman’s success on whether she is a stay at home mom, a circus performer, or a self-made billionare.

The Hail Mary (Ave Maria):
Hail Mary!-full of grace, the Lord is with you! (Luke 1:28)
Blessed are you among all women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Amen!

Well, my first reaction was that this is just more drivel supported by generalizations, lack of knowledge or fact, and wrongful assumptions intended (probably a bit unconsciously) to suppress in the long-term and prompt comments in the short-term.  Power – that is what this author’s really talking about.  Oh, and his own virgin/!@#$% dichotomy issues.  Not shocking or particularly interesting.  I was awed, however, by the seemingly endless array of comments. I didn’t think too much of it at first until so many of my “friends” on FB starting posting it and “liking” it, so now I’m knowingly biting the bait (and this is where I’m going to sound like an SNL skit for a moment). 

Women used to want to project an image of innocence.  Really?

Stars of the fifties pursued a different public ideal than today.  Really?

Women who want to project an image of “hot” must be used.  Really?

Women who want to project an image of “hot” must be thrown out.  Really?

Innocence and virtuous bring warmth.  Really?

Most girls don’t want to be pretty any more even if they know what it is.  Really?

Women should know better.  Really?

Women once knew better.  Really?

Once upon a time you would hear girls talk about the kind of women men date and the kind they marry.  You don’t hear that any more.  Really?

The real truth is that most men prefer pretty over hot.  Really?

Taylor Swift projects this author’s ideal of pretty.  Really?

Is he serious, I kept thinking?  Surely, he can’t possibly be serious!  What on Earth could this “once upon a time” and “back then” be that he’s referring to?  Was it the 90’s when women were all sporting Rachel-from-Friends hairdo’s and cropped sweaters?  Was it the 80’s big hair and Madonna make-up?  Was it the 70’s hip-huggers?  Was it the 60’s miniskirts?  Was it the 50’s torpedo bras and pedal pushers?  Was it the red lipstick of the 40s?  Was it the skin-tight pencil skirt suits of the 30s?  Was it the flappers of the 20s?  I know!  It must’ve been the corsets that came before then – the ones that cinched women’s waists in an effort to permanently deform their bodies into better hourglass shapes and make their breasts appear bigger!  Unfortunately, his sentiment is as old as the fig leaf, itself.  Some people have a tendency to wax nostalgic of “bygone eras” that never actually existed.

It was so sloppy the way he begins by defining his idea of pretty, but leaves innocence alone.  Heck, he doesn’t even bother to try to define “hot”, either.  Make no mistake, though, because his point is clear.  This author is really saying he prefers girls/women who aspire to project an image of virgins as opposed to !@#$% and he believes most men have the same preference.

Next, he generalizes the “young women of today” and degrades them, as a whole, by saying they prefer to be thought of as “hot”.  This may come as news to him, but it is a well-documented fact that women predominantly project their image for other women – not men. 

Okay, I have to say quickly, here, that Grease is decidedly not about the “merits of hotness over pretty”! 

I think most girls do want to be pretty, but the thing that really got me was the next statement.  When I read “It is ironic that 40 years of women’s liberation has succeeded only in turning women into a commodity”, I actually laughed out loud.  What happened to the other 160+ years of “women’s liberation”?  Granted, the women’s studies section of my brain is a little dusty, but I’m fairly certain Mary Wollstonecraft published A Vindication of Women’s Rights in 1792.  I figured he must just be referring to the second wave of American feminism.  But, even still, to condense the “success” of “women’s liberation” to “turning women into a commodity” is absolutely absurd, at best.  This author could really benefit from reading some books on the subject he purports to know something about.  “The Second Sex” by Simone de Beauvoir might be a good place to begin.  I think it was published in the 1950s - an era he refers to so fondly. 

I actually think I understand what he might have been trying to say.  He just didn’t say it.  If, for example, he would have said something like “Back when I was in college, most women wore straight bobs, no make-up, boots, turtlenecks and chastity belts peeking out above their ankle-length skirts in order to project an image innocence that meant they were chaste until they decided not to be.  Nowadays, it seems to me that most college women wear make-up that reminds me of what I perceive to be the kind hookers wear and g-strings peeking out above their 3-inch neon mini-skirts to indicate they are ready for sexual activities with anyone, any time anywhere.  My preference, and I think the preference of most people my age, is that most women were more attractive when they were trying to show that they were innocent (even if they weren’t) than they are now when they’re trying to show that they’re hot (even if they aren’t).  I think that most men and women want to marry.  I also think that most men want to marry the type of women who are projecting an image of innocence rather than hotness.”  Now, if he said something like that, then maybe I wouldn’t have wasted the past forty-five minutes saying stuff like this.  The thing is that people have been lamenting the atrocities of women projecting “hot” (sexy) images forever.  Many have lamented upon it much better.  My problem with the way he does it is that it is so dangerous. 

So, you know “how sorry he felt for Olivia Newton John” having to “debase herself in such a way” – what with all that additional movie make-up, black pants and curled hair?  I think I feel exactly the same way for him.  He is so unknowingly pitiful.  He doesn’t even know the difference between girls and women.  He doesn’t even know that girls who project an image of “hot” can still be “good”.  He doesn’t even know that most of the women of today don’t need, and many don’t want, a man who would view them differently based on what they chose to put on their outside.  He definitely doesn’t know that perpetuating this type of thought is a precise example of one of things the second wave of American feminism was aimed at eradicating (violence against women).  Most importantly, he will probably never “get it”.  And that is sad.  Very sad.

So, here’s my lament.

Chauvinism, chauvinism is dying.

Once upon a time, some people thought it was okay to generalize women into virgin and !@#$% stereotypes based on the image they projected when it was really their perception of that image and their own projections of how to act or not act on those perceptions that caused problems.

In a bygone era, some people thought of women as commodities and associated with other people who also subscribed to the notion that they could use up and throw away the women if they appeared to be slutty.

They have even made many, many movies about this.  The one with Jodie Foster’s character being forcefully gang-raped against a pinball machine and then blamed for it due to the image she was supposedly projecting comes to mind.

So, I long for a time when all the people with lingering gender biases are either enlightened or passed of this Earth to meet the only being who should stand in judgment.

True Eryn, for every man who is inspired to protect and defent it, another one, at least, has his desire awakened.  Have you heard of sexual fantasies about Catholic schoolgirls, and how men look upon their uniforms as erotic?

I am looking for an unsubscribe option. I appreciate having made my comment but I am getting too many responses in my box. Please remove me.

This really inspired me! I wish us girls can bring pretty back and not this hot every girl wants to be! I really am going to take note of this and pay attention to girls who are the pretty and not the hot and press forward and tell the girls who want to be the hot that pretty is better on the other hand!

We continue to be defined by the words others use to make us into objects. Whether the predominate word is “pretty” or “hot” is immaterial. Both portray women as subjects for aesthetic appreciation or assessment. Instead, let’s think of women and men as minds, spirits, and humans, not bodies. Let’s focus their ability to contribute meaningfully to society, rather than stopping short on matters of appearance and image.

I think that this is the most wonderful think ever

What bugs me is the whole concept that what a woman looks like is all about how a man responds.
Pretty inspires men to “protect and defend” the beautiful and innocent woman. So pretty is in need of someone strong, which reinforces gender stereotypes of male “headship” and female “subordination.”
But hotness, on the other hand is about sexuality, female power over men. And that reinforces the gender stereotype of males who can’t control their lust in the presence of hotness.
To say nothing of countless women who will never acheive either pretty or hotness, and are somehow less valuable because they cant grab the attention of males . . .

Wow. It has been an interesting time, reading all the responses.
I don’t know if Mr. Archbold will be answering any of the accusations that have been brought upon him in the course of the many postings.
I wish he would, because I’m guessing a lot of people blew what he wrote way out of proportion. He is in no way promoting the return of the burka, as someone suggested.
Emma: I came here to post something very similar to what you wrote.
So I make your words mine; and might I add this:
He not only chose a humble Hebrew woman, but generations have, are, and will be calling her blessed, as in the Magnificat.
He raised her high, for millions around the world devote a special honor to her (myself included with these millions).
May more women look to Mary and the saints for example.
I would like to finish by asking those who have come here to bash our Christian Faith:
what would happen to me if I went to an atheist blog and started ranting on comments about how delusional people who do not believe in God are?
You have chosen not to believe in God, you have chosen not to be part of the Church; God will not force this upon you and neither will we.
But can you at least show some respect in a Christian forum?

More Madonna/!@#$% clap-trap.  Stop viewing women in limited binary terms of attractiveness, a shallow assessment gauge by anyone’s standard.  If “pretty” and “innocent” are such valued characteristics, then the author should strive to project them himself.

@AdrienneB who writes:  “What bugs me is the whole concept that what a woman looks like is all about how a man responds.    You place too much value on the influence of TV sitcoms and idiotic beer commercials.  Who do you think is behind these but juveniles.  Also, you wrote:  “To say nothing of countless women who will never acheive either pretty or hotness, and are somehow less valuable . . .”    Your higher concern should be that you are seen as more valuable in the Lord’s eyes.  When you submit to His authority, it is He who will direct the attention of the right man who finds you “valuable” as well.  Perhaps with your change of heart you will then understand the man’s desire to “protect and defend” that which also finds as very valuable.

@Tina:  You should expect such a reaction from those do what comes “naturally.”  However, for those who walk in the Spirit, remember John 15:18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me (Jesus) before you.”

Lector, you failed reader comprehension.  What Adrienne wrote is what she interpreted of what Mr. Archbold wrote,.  This is what she says Mr. Archbold says, it is not what she says.  So address your comments to Mr. Archbold, instead of lecturing another stupid, irrational female about the natural order (same natural order that seemingly supported slavery, social stratification, and the divine right of kings - but then, those whon profit from a situation are willing to believe that God wants it that way).

By the way, stop saying that I and others hate men.  We know that not all men are condesceding, patronizing jerks as you.

Or like Mr. Archbold.

Lector
Yes, I understand. Thanks for the reminder. God bless you.
Patience is a virtue and you have it!
:)

@Adriana who writes:  “the natural order (same natural order that seemingly supported slavery, social stratification, and the divine right of kings.”  And you, Adriana, should be grateful to God for it is Christian men and women (empowered by the gospel of Jesus Christ) who fought and succeeded in ending slavery, social stratification and the divine right of kings.  These things did not end by a “natural order.”  I refer you to John Newton, an English slave trader and author of Amazing Grace.  “Twas God’s grace that saved a wretch like him.”  He was once lost (and blind)—but found by God’s grace the hour he first believed.  Perhaps you also are lost but would like God’s grace in your own life?

How absolutely lovely.  I loved reading this.  And I love reading all the comments by everyone!  It is beautiful to see so many people care about this and the reasons for modesty.  I believe all the same things that you have posted here.  I have never been to this site before, and I find it very encouraging to see so many people of another faith that believe as I do. (I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).  I truly love finding the many values people of many faiths have in common, and the many reasons we have to be supporters of each other and friends.  As Christ says,  “As I have loved you, love one another.”  Thank you!

The “pretty” girls are still out there.  However, they are often overlooked by young men because the young men are too busy trying to get into the “hot” girls’ pants.  When these young men finally mature, they look around wonder where all the “pretty” girls are.  Well, those “pretty” girls wised up and married the smarter men, the men that valued them instead of the “hot” girls in the first place.

Wow.  Gives me, a ranting single woman who is forever searching for the nobler men, pause.  Great read. Thx.

Lector:  The subordination of women to men will go the way of slavery social stratification and the divine right of kings.  Whether you approve of it or not.  Just remember, there were Christians just as devoted, just as sincere as you, who defended those things, and quoted Scripture to defend it, telling those who advocated agaist thm that they did not follow Christ as they should.

So, when debating the matter, stop telling others that the only way for them to be Christian is to agree with you.

@Adriana:  In the end, what you fail to acknowledge is that Christianity is the ultimate means of your liberation.  Jesus came to save not the righteous but rather the lost, the outcasts and the downtrodden.  He associated with sinners, prostitutes and traitorous tax collectors.  He did not condemn but offered forgiveness and liberation to new and eternal life.  As for agreement with me?, I suggest you explain your own definition of Christianity.

I think as long as there are people who disagree with this article, Pat’s words will be taken out of context, misunderstood, overgeneralized, and twisted to mean whatever people want them to, so through it they can take out their anger on the anti-feminist movement. Please, this article is meaningful and an inspiration to many women and girls out there. If you don’t like it, go read a feminist blog that you agree with, and maybe you’ll feel better.

Lector:  Please I would like to find your definition of liberation.  Beind told to obey, and obey, and obey a man just for being a male, and hoping to be loved in return, and if not, to continue to obey, anyway is not liberation but servitude.

This is actually something pretty interesting to think about and though I cannot speak for all men, I do know I myself prefer pretty.  Luckily, pretty women are not extinct and I can gladly say I know them when I see them and especially when I speak to them.  They are the ones who do not try to be attractive to the point that they might as well be wearing nothing.  Pretty women are the ones who can be comfortable with being themselves around others and the right men who are mature and have their heads out of the gutter will appreciate the personalities of these women and value these individuals as more than a score or a number (you know what I’m talking about guys.  The 7, 8, or 9).  I myself know plenty of women both pretty and hot and I am more than sure one day the pretty girls (and pray the “hot” ones) will be with the right man (if they are not already).  And I believe as long as there are pretty women, so too will there be good and noble men who know the difference between a hot girl and a pretty woman.  And I hope to find a pretty woman I can spend the rest of my life with over a hot girl who any other guy would spend a night with.

Almost every comment in here that is in support of Pat(riarchy)‘s oversimplification and subsequent subjectivity of women make the same mistake over and over again - they reduce women to the simple binary of pretty/hot, virgin/!@#$%, virtuous/promiscuous. Do you really think we are so simple that we can be decoded using such harmful binaries? Do you really think making your daughters feel shameful about their bodies and their sexuality is any less damaging to them than the so-called epidemic of hotness? You claim to be fighting the battle of commodifying your daughters, and then you commodify them in the opposite direction. What about teaching young women to be confident, to be true to themselves, to be knowledgeable, and to strive for a healthy sexual and emotional self? I’m sure you think that is what you are doing, but you’re not so long as you see your daughters as only virgins or !@#$%.

“Pretty” has gone away, not because women made it go away, but because men would rather have !@#$% and Victoria Secret girls.

Thank you Richard for your very-gentleman and kind words that are very encouraging to women who are really looking to stay feminine,virtuous and pretty. I have begun to feel sorry for girls/women that really never know what what it is like to have a man smile sweetly at them. To gallantly open a door, quickly apologize if something is said off-color in their presence, bring them a bouguet of flowers, write them a poem and just generally treat them like they are the only women in the world with respect without measure. This is how I see men because I respect them and look up to them as men. Do this and they in turn will treat you like a lady.  It is Gods way and is the “perfect"way!

I only agree to a certain extent. He makes it seem like men are not to be held responsible for their actions and that they do not contribute a large factor in the change. Women do want to be thought of as pretty but are torn because they get more attention from “hot”. It may not be good attention but when you are a teenage girl, attention of any kind tends to be what you crave. You beg to be noticed and liked.  It is just human to want to be accepted. Also, women do talk about the girls who date and those who marry. I have no idea what females he has been around but it is discussed quite often between women and even with men and women.

@Carmen:  Men are always to be held responsible for their actions (as are women).  Pretty, Hot or Plain, suffice to say most fall somewhere in the middle.  Christian women place a higher priority on pleasing the Savior *before* men.  She will carry herself and present herself in a way pleasing to God in all she does.  A Christian woman with an aspiration of obedience to the Lord *first* possesses an inner quality and beauty which cannot be hidden.  It is visible in her countenance.  A Christian man will thus find her quality highly pleasing and attractive to his soul.  In relationships, men and women who fail to involve Christ in their decisions but rather plow ahead to get their “own” needs met first usually end up with less than God’s best.  Believers think Spiritually.  Unbelievers think as the world does.  If you are a believer, it is unwise to be yoked with someone not in Christ.  It is He who will solidify and bless your relationship with grace abundant.

What’s wrong with a woman just being beautiful? Why does she have to fall into one end of the spectrum or the other? I’m fine with someone telling me I’m pretty but I also tell my 20 month old daughter she’s pretty. Are we on the same level of physical appearance? I hope not considering she is only a child and I am a 26 year old woman. I also think when Archbold says he dislikes “hotness”, I think what he really means is slutiness. THAT, I totally agree with. There are many woman, young and not-so-young, who think that if they show some skin, they’ll be preceived…however it is they think it is ideal for a woman to be perceived in their minds. I think what they’re aiming for is sexy. But looking sexy isn’t about revealing clothing but about having that confidance in your womanhood, in your experience that you’ve garnered in the time God has alotted you thus far on Earth. (Mind you, the operative word here is WOMAN.) I think this is where words like beautiful come into play. I also understand how some women wouldn’t want to project an image of innocence. As someone mentioned above, innocence can be seen as weakness and there isn’t always a righteous man around to meet us in our time of need. And as for Olivia’s roll in Grease, I don’t see anything wrong with her change in wardrobe at the end of the movie. I still think she looks pretty and now she also looks like a cool, tough chick. She’s covered up more than some girls I see walking around my city at any given time of day. What I DO think is worth commenting on is her change in ATTITUDE. Her attitude towards John’s character by the end of the movie is appalling. Yes, she’s willing to change her moral guidelines and behavior to gain the attention of a boy and that’s disheartening. No one (guy or gal) should change their personality or follow a different set of moral guidelines just to get the attention of another. Christ did not change His message or behavior to better suit the tastes of the Pharisees. Both sexes should consider not what would please the opposite sex in terms of how we dress or behave but what would be most pleasing to our Lord!

This hot vs. pretty mentality is very condescending.  Whether a woman is labeled as “hot” or as “pretty” by these definitions there is something missing…the woman herself!  This is placing too much value on sexuality and appearance; which is a dangerous game.  I value intelligence, personality, and strength rather then projected innocence/naivety.  Why can’t we value women for character qualities such as integrity, loyalty, and honesty??  Why can’t we get to know a woman before judging her??

Something else that bothers me about today’s culture: weight. How skinny a woman is makes a big difference in her hotness factor, according to men at least. Overweight women can be very pretty, as in pretty eyes, hair, skin, etc. But the extra fat makes them ugly in men’s eyes because they aren’t “hot.” Do women really have to look like barbie dolls to stand a chance? That’s what it seems like to me. And that’s very sad. I wish men would realize that fat is not what makes a woman. Personality is way more important. Men, stop being so shallow.

Michelle, because for too many here, while in a man “virtue”  means integrity, or moral courage, honesty, or any other attribute, the only worth of a woman is between her legs.  Nothing else matters.

She is either pretty or hot.  All that she is worth is at her crotch. Anything esle does not count.

I find this article offensive. Under the guise of telling people to respect themselves, you’re instead undermining their right to choose how they present themselves and admonishing them for not looking how you feel they should look. What if we don’t want to be considered “beautiful and innocent” but rather strong, competent, and intelligent? Stop trying to take away our choice.

I am completely floored at the capability of men to do everything in their power to undermine a woman’s self worth. What is wrong with being intelligent? Well-spoken? Well-read? Why is it about how we please our male counterparts?
And with male-domination in so many aspects of society, how can we say that women are at fault for making men horny? MEN are at fault for that, not women. Men are at fault for preaching to women that our value is in our physical attractiveness, not our brains. Men who claim they want to respect and love women (like Newt Gingrich) then ask their women to be in a three-way, open relationship, or to sit and watch porn together to “get hot.” (yes, Newt Gingrich did at least ONE of those things…)
I am with all the other women on this post. At some point, you’re going to need to learn to respect us for something other than the vaginal area.

I am completely floored at the capability of men to do everything in their power to undermine a woman’s self worth. What is wrong with being intelligent? Well-spoken? Well-read? Why is it about how we please our male counterparts?
And with male-domination in so many aspects of society, how can we say that women are at fault for making men horny? MEN are at fault for that, not women. Men are at fault for preaching to women that our value is in our physical attractiveness, not our brains. Men who claim they want to respect and love women (like Newt Gingrich) then ask their women to be in a three-way, open relationship, or to sit and watch porn together to “get hot.” (yes, Newt Gingrich did at least ONE of those things…)
I am with all the other women on this post. At some point, you’re going to need to learn to respect us for something other than our beauty or sex.

Aye, Lola. for too many men, when they talk about a woman’s virtue, all they mean is their sexual organs. The rest does not exist.

These men cannot understand that a woman can be not chaste and still virtuous.  Like the ones in Patagonia in the 1920’s. 

There had been a strike then among rural workers protesting their awful working conditions.  The government answered by massacring them.  Afte the massacre the local society shrugged and muttered something about “communist agitators”  The only ones who protested where the inmates of a local brothel, who when the soldiers who had carried out the massacre tried to come in to use the facilities, barred their way armed with brooms, calling them murderers and telling them they did not want their sort there.

The only ones who protested were they. 

So, how does behavior like this goes with the belief that the only thing that matters in a woman is her sexual purity?

I completely agree with this article… Mostly because I was raised in a such a way that almost installs right and wrong into your brain. And to me I always thought that there was a right way to do things and this is the way it should be. Until I began 6th grade and realized that people have many different views now a days. I am the 17 year old girl that gets made fun and that people make fun of because my sole focus is not on fashion and sexual stuff. I wear the clothes I feel comfortable in, dont pay a fortune for… and as for the guys… I want one that loves me for me.. what is the purpose of finding someone who only loves you for something that will change and fade through the years? I feel there is no way for that to last, your completely right.. it is temporary. People should look for lasting love, not a two paged fairy tale ending in pregnancy.

Wow, this has to be the most misogynistic article I’ve read in awhile.  How about a far superior idea?  How about girls refusing to aspire to being either “hot” or “pretty” (both equally commodities aimed at pleasing men).  How about girls striving, instead, for “smart” and “capable” and not worrying about what men think for once?  I completely agree that feminism has gone off the rails in some ways.  But that is largely due to women not focusing on being equal people, first and foremost.  Constantly pandering to what men think women should be is not pro-woman, whether “pretty” or “hot.”

Great article and message.  Thank you for making the time to express this.  I wish girls would take note a listen.

Neither hot nor pretty.  What a mind blowing concept!  According to that dichotomy women like Oprah Winfrey, Margaret Thatcher, Carly Fiorina, Condoleeza Rice do not exist, since they are neither.

Was Mother Theresa hot or pretty?

Good grief ... I got a notice that someone responded to something I said so I clicked the link to see ... and have been meet with about 1000 comments! Uh ... WHAT DID I SAY?! WHERE DID IT GO? lololol Who said what about it?  I CANNOT FIND A THING AMONG ALL THESE ENTRIES!

It’s time to return to virtue, and value ourselves as literal Daughters of God. Being beautiful to Him is the real goal.

These girls saying that “pretty” as referencing “innocent” is a bad thing are completely ignorant or more likely in denial about themselves, the way human beings are, and the artificiality of the culture they are living in. I have worked with many women and I must say that most of them do try to look “hot”. These same women are not nearly as capable as the very very few “pretty” ones i’ve worked with. It’s very hard to take a woman seriously when she’s showing off her boobs and legs as though showing them to the world is her purpose in life.

Innocence should not be looked on as naive. I really really hate how our mainstream media has mocked innocence by equating it in their presentation of society to naive. Innocence is not naivety. Labeling it as such shows a distaste for virtue in general. This is indicative of their hostility toward society as a whole. Those who care the least for your well-being are those who mock it the most, and sadly, are obviously the sources you listen to the most.

It should be noted that the most capable woman I know is very very innocent. She’s someone I look up to in many ways, her innocence included. I feel she’s capable of leading almost any organization, speaking in public about any relevant topic, or generally being held up as the kind of person we should all aspire to be. Her character and image are in stark contrast to the depraved “celebrities” the mainstream media hold up as our examples, the same people and media you are obviously falling for: hook, line, and sinker.

What I would like is for women to be valued as people, not as pretty, hot, or any other commodity. As defined, pretty is just as much a commodity as hot.

This Article or “blog” contradicts the author’s position recently set forth in his later blog titled: “I Hate Ogling”. Perhaps the author fails to realize that in order to make a determination that a woman is dressing “pretty” or “hot”, that woman may need to be looked at for a few seconds, or in other words, heaven forbid, there needs to be some ogling. I mean after all, you can’t reach such a conclusion or pass such judgment by way of a quick glance. This author needs to stop lecturing to us and trying to impress upon us his superior morality. This article, as in the latter, is a vein attempt to promte censorship and political correctness - both of which are far greater evils than looking “hot” or “ogling”. By promoting his values based upon what he thinks society should be doing the author neglects that which should be truly espoused as perfectly stated by Molly, above -
“What I would like is for women to be valued as people, not as pretty, hot, or any other commodity. As defined, pretty is just as much a commodity as hot.”
I would venture to say that this author is doing so intentionally. I find it very funny that this author does not address the comments made on his blogs.

@ Kate:  Also, you seem to have no understanding of the biological sciences.  It has been demonstrated time and time again in studies, that women dress to impress men. They also dress to impress other women, and somewhat according to their own likes/dislikes, but one of the overarching drivers of how women dress is to impress or attract men.  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/11/health/webmd/main2081501.shtml

In response to this ^  @Momofthree:  I’m not sure what the ‘also’ is advancing but nonetheless, thanks for the presumptive and condescending pronouncement that my knowledge of ‘the biological sciences’ is non-existent.  Given the generosity of that statement, any guilt over the following reply will be likewise.  I’m not swayed or impressed with your inclusion of a link to a study, nor am I inclined to seriously consider a statement that needs one to lend weight to it.  I could potentially dredge up a study to stand in direct opposition to the one you’re proffering or to support any argument I might make, for that matter, but frankly, it’s irrelevant.  See?  Here’s the thing, I couldn’t care less what any study says and not just because they’re inherently flawed.  It’s because I do this crazy thing called thinking for myself,  just as I dress for myself.  A concept that you concede as a potential impetus for the fashion choices many women make.  If you had read my post carefully, you would have seen that I prefaced my pertinent comment with ‘I think’ and punctuated it with, ‘This is my opinion.’  Those things indicate that it was not a statement of fact but merely conjecture, once again… my opinion.  On point, I condemned the fact that women dress to impress men, I never said they don’t do it.  Essentially, I said that they do.  As an aside, the primary purpose of my comment was to back up the position of another woman, you know… as a supportive kind of thing, which you may want to try some time since, p.s. like it or not, by default, we’re on the same team.  Since you missed all of this in your haste to enter a corrective rebuttal, the only logical conclusion I can make is that you seem to have no understanding of the exegetical arts.

I’m a young man and I get what he means; It’s not that women should fit the stereotype for “pretty” or for “hot”; and I don’t know if there was a time when innocence was favored above sexual appeal - but now, here, it is expected by many of my peers that young women portray themselves as appealing as sexual partners almost above anything else, and it should not be. To my ears “am I hot” is similar in meaning to “am I more sexually attractive to you than other women are” and I would prefer to be asked a different question “am I beautiful”. Women are beautiful, they are the daughters of God, they bear his likeness, they can be filled with his spirit, and prophesy, they can change hearts and nations. There is no reason fashion should focus on women’s sexuality above their elegance, purity (and purity is power against evil, not just a passive absence of evil which can’t persist), and splendor. And so I will call my girlfriend beautiful whenever I think she might be doubting it, and only say she’s hot reluctantly in response to a direct question.

@roy - Your comment is flawed. Is it that the hot women aren’t capable, or is it that you simply perceive them to be that way? You say yourself that the problem is that they cannot be taken seriously. I have pink hair and teach - I’m sure you wouldn’t take me seriously, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not good at my job. Sure, there’s the simple notion of dressing appropriately for the workplace, but there are two real issues that cannot be overlooked: 1.) there will always be differences of opinion as to what qualifies as “appropriate” and 2.) you cannot accurately judge a book by its cover. To do otherwise is insulting to the complexity of the human race - something your “god” would probably want you to appreciate…

25 years ago I was stunningly beautiful.  Really.  Model agencies approached me in the street to ask me to submit a portfolio.  But I was pretty, not hot.  You are right, pretty brings out the best in men, whereas hot only inspires them to use women the way anyone uses a paper napkin.

It is not, however, the girls who will bring back pretty.  It must be the men.  When men make it clear that they value “pretty” (and they don’t) over hot, our daughters will turn from dressing and acting like !@#$% and back to the most beautiful virtues of womanhood.

I’ll get you my pretty, and your little dog too!

Perhaps we should have shirts printed up that says Bring Back Pretty. I loved reading this article and I WILL be sharing this article with other young ladies because the message is so clear and it needs to be directed to the young women of today. All of my life I have been told that I am pretty. I have never been called HOT and that has been perfectly fine with me. Just like Happiness is fleeting, but Joy is everlasting, Hot is consumable, but pretty is forever! Thanks for writing this! The world needs more men like you!

I suggest “elegant”. “Pretty” is good, sure. But “pretty” does also project the “young and naive” sort of innocence. Appropriate at certain ages, but it is outgrown and should be. That’s one of the problems—pretty being seen as childlike and “hot” being seen as more “adult.” But hot isn’t the only option for maturity, nor is it true maturity. “Elegant” says “I know the world, I know the good, the bad, and the ugly, and here is what I will allow to touch me and what I won’t.” Elegant is mature; elegant is innocent by knowledge and choice.

@Dawn - pretty is consumable too. Just look at virginity fetishism - something I believe Pat’s article reeks of…

@athenian_oracle:  Continuance of your remarks only validates you see no difference between what women find attractive in men and that which men find attractive in women.  Your preference is a unisex approach which does not exist.  As for virginity being a consumable, females may also prefer their husband *to be* did not have 25 partners before you.  It’s not a one way street.  Sexual purity before marriage is a biblical precept not willed by the Lord to deny you human pleasure, but moreover, to protect you from destructive consequences too often resulting in pregnancy, sexual disease, emotional scarring or other consequences like abortion which stay with you for a lifetime.  The idea of sexual purity before marriage for both men and women is biblical because He loves you and knows what is best for you.  In turn,  it is the wise father and mother who also teach and instill these values to their own sons and daughters.

Mary is THE true model.  Was she innocent?  Could innocence endure Calvary? I think she was wise.  Purity doesn’t mean to be sequestered in an airtight vault. Purity doesn’t deny that “carnal knowledge” is holy, valiant and divine when it is called for.  Mary was utterly disposed to God *whatever* this might mean.  In this case, it was to define the importance of something *monumental*,set apart from the “norm”, which required virgin birth.  She was a woman—no mere girl.  Not a a pretty girl worried about decorum.
“She pondered these things in her heart”
Pondered…Deductive reasoning…connections made…sacrifice…love springing forth from an uncluttered mind…*Wisdom*...“Me” finding self actualization in the service of “You”.  Or in the words of Maximilian Kolbe: “Love without limits.”
Mary wasn’t “pretty”. She was beautiful and powerful.

If people don’t ‘buy’ what is being sold to them then it is often no longer for sale. I believe that we could cover every meaning and reasoning as to why and how the world is going etc. I have prayed a great deal about this for a few years now and one of the things the Lord has shown me is that we are being taught that purity is all about how we dress and present ourselves etc. When you read the Bible, it is clearly speaking and telling the person reading it to keep their heart, mind and life pure. It does not single gender out at all. Both men and woman, boy and girl are to be pure. We are all responsible for living a pure life. If men start standing up and make the decision to be pure, self controlled, self disciplined and fight against the war of impurity, then woman and girls are more likely to follow and fight alongside them. Woman get frustrated because they see men running around after worldly woman and when faced with the powers and principalities, it is a hard fight to stand on your own.
Men and woman need to take responsibility in this war that we are facing. We need to take the Living Word, the Bible seriously and we need to be on our guard at all times and wear our armour and learn and practice how to fight with it. Purity is not only for woman. God made purity to be a strength for men too. Just look at Joseph. He was pure in every way and is said to be the most like Jesus in character. God is masculine and is 100% Pure. Men are created in God’s image. Woman were formed from men. Lets get back to the blueprints in which we were made and stop blaming each others gender for this war and fight which we are in. Ask the Lord to open your eyes to what is really behind this and then fight and strike back when the enemy comes around. Encourage each other and support one another and lead by example of how and what purity is. Be accountable to one another (James 1v22-27. And ch 5v19-20. Read the whole book of James). Lets start fighting by complaining to the tv channels that show i.e Heff and his so called girlfriends. It is saying to men they can have this and telling woman that is what they should aim to be.. The truth at the end of the day is that it is not flesh and blood that we wrestle against. It is powers and principalities and we are given armour to fight it, Epesians 6v10.. Purity is stronger than impurity and God is greater than satan. The war is not lost and the King still has one last move. Jesus is returning and wanting to find His Bride whole and pure. We, men and woman, have a choice. We can be like the Bride Jesus is returning for or we can be, choose satans counterfeit, the prostitute that rides on the beast, Revelation 17.

“It’s time to return to virtue, and value ourselves as literal Daughters of God. Being beautiful to Him is the real goal.”

U still believe in imaginary friends? Keep them to urself, honey and stop spreading ur religious crap all over the place.

@XYZ who writes:  “U still believe in imaginary friends? Keep them to urself, honey and stop spreading ur religious crap all over the place.”    And of course “all over the place” is axiomatic considering this “place” is a Catholic/Christian-based website.  It’s always interesting that atheists expend so much time and energy fighting against a God they say doesn’t exist.  So why bother?  If believers are wrong, we have lost nothing.  If you are wrong, you have lost everything.  This XYZ idiot is the exact person Jesus said to shake the dust from one’s feet, move on and not waste time with.

@Lector - if you really believe that men and women are held to the same standard in Catholic/Christian religion, then you obviously haven’t been reading the same bible I have. Such a position of blindness isn’t so detrimental to a man, since the bible was written to promote dominance over women.

@athenian_oracle:  You?, reading the Bible?  That’s hilarious.  You have already stated God is a myth and doesn’t exist.  Your assertion is bogus and devoid of any merit.  Until you are able to discuss women such as Ruth, Esther and the Samaritan woman, the more comments you post the more increasingly foolish you look to this audience.  One can only suspect you have received bad information in your life from equally uninformed people.

@Lector - What’s hilarious about my having read the bible? I read lots of fiction - the bible is one of the oldest examples of documented fiction and is where the framework for many classic stories can be found. I also like how you previously sidestepped my comments about my friend’s pastor/minister/priest/whatever refusing to marry her because she lives with her fiancé. You suggested it was because they were fornicating, yet the church has no proof of that. I know the church enjoys using things they can’t see as the basis for judging others, but my friend is starting to see how her church really feels about her. See me as foolish if you like, it’s a common crutch for religious people who are backed into a corner. They quote scripture that labels non-believers as ignorant heathens, but I am proud to lead my family on a path devoid of misogyny, misandry, and dangerous superstition.

@athenian_oracle:  It’s one thing to read the Bible for information, (fiction that you say it is).  It’s an entirely different thing to read God’s word and make purposeful application to one’s heart.  I sidestepped nothing in response to the refusal of your friend’s Pastor/Minister/Priest to marry her and her boyfriend.  Biblically speaking, ministers of God’s word have an obligation to first request the couple stop living as man and wife and then take marriage prep classes in their church.  It would be naive to think they are not currently having sexual relations while living together prior to marriage.  Even if they are not, living separately before marriage provides a hedge to keep them pure.  And one more thing.  A decision to thus live separately before marriage for them can re-establish one’s purity in God’s eyes because of your commitment to change course and obey His precepts.  It’s never too late to agree with the Lord and repent by changing your behavior.  When you choose to obey Him, it is His grace and favor which will rain down and bless your obedience.  I know you find all this talk foolish.  However, even though you do not believe, why not try Him?

@Lector - There you go again, saying things like “It would be naive to think they are not currently having sexual relations while living together prior to marriage” when in fact, they are not. Why do they have to “stage their purity” to please an all-knowing, omnipotent being?

@athenian_oracle, @Lector - I agree. Why does sexual purity in general always need to be staged? Whereas other virtues, like honesty, don’t? Why don’t people say things like, “It would be naive to think that the bank teller doesn’t steal cash from the bank every now and then”. Why must sexuality in particular be policed so heavily?

@athenian_oracle:  Since they are not engaged in premartial sex, there should be no objection to not living together prior to marriage as their Pastor/Minister/Priest requests.

@ genevathene Sexuality needs to be “policed” as you say because it is the most sacred fundamental aspect to our humanity. The world lives in a certain sense of chaos. This world can live in the parameters of love or it can live within the parameters of something outside love. Our sexuality has been given to us by God as the greatest example of Love. When that sexuality is engaged in the proper way it manifests that Love. Or what I mean to say is it manifests that man/woman are people of Love. When are sexuality is abused and used in a way that it was not meant to be than it manifests that people are not people of love. Getting our sexuality right is a foreshadowing that we will get love right in General. It is a test. It measures our depth of Love.

Sexuality is also so important because it has procreative powers. It is to be respected in light of this. There are many implications that this has. Because our sexuality has these two very important elements in them, that of fundamental love and tat of procreation it becomes sacred and must be regarded with utmost respect.  In order to fully understand the depth of these concepts I would recommend reading John Paul II book called Love and Responsibility.

“Hot” women appeal to a man’s lower nature. (affects of original sin) Pretty/beautiful women of purity appeal to a man’s higher nature ( affects of God’s Grace on mankind).  One will drag a man down and the other will raise a man upward to live a good life and be a better man. It takes faith and self-control but in the end you will have found true joy that lasts, unlike “happy” that is fleeting. This life is a stepping-stone into eternal life. A destination determined by the choices we make here. Choices that, after death are fixed and can’t be altered. Thankfully God gives “most” of us a lifetime to work things out and find Him who is always with us.  Ask God to show Himself to you…I promise He will.

@Lector - Oh sure, I’ll just tell them to pay the $14,000 cancellation fee on their mortgage. If co-habitation, even in the absence of fornication, is still a sin, where does the bible say this? Fortunately, my friend has started to see the church for what it is and has lost interest in having her church involved in her wedding at all. I’m so glad we weren’t subjected to the church’s “marriage counselling” - how can a religious leader, who abstains from marriage to take up his position in the church, actually offer advice on marriage?

@athenian_oracle:  Of course.  They already have a mortgage on a home and obviously have been living together for quite some time before purchasing the home.  And surely you expect everyone to believe (they?) are celibate before marriage.  You have tipped your hand with “we weren’t subjected to the church’s “marriage counselling” . . .”  You are talking about yourself and your boyfriend and are having a hissy fit because your pastor will not sanction and bless your fornication.  He will, of course, perform the marriage,—but you will have to abstain from sex until after marriage.  The question is whether you will obey the Lord or follow your own carnal nature.  Since your rant is really against the Catholic priest who refused you, the same response would come from any married Christian pastor as well.

Don’t feed the trolls anymore.

@Lector - I’m not sure which hat you think I tipped, since the person with the mortgage is my brother-in-law’s future wife. They bought their home last year and are planning on getting married this November. If it were my own story to tell, why wouldn’t I tell it as such? My husband and I were never subjected to the church’s marriage counselling, because we are both atheists and thus, never had to follow such rules. I’m not “having a hissy fit” - as you describe - my wedding was several years ago. You enjoy your misreading of my story so much because it gives you some sort of pedestal to climb back up on from which you can shame me for wanting to bend the church’s will to accept my sinful ways, but that’s just not the case. I am curious if you are actually capable of NOT side-stepping my arguments for two seconds and actually addressing the issues I mention in a mature fashion (unless you think the language you used in your latest post was actually adult language)? My guess is, probably not. Religious people, when continually reminded of the folly of their flawed book, at this stage, generally resort to avoidance or name-calling. Nice touch there, resorting to both, as you did.

We (my wife and I) loved reading all the comments that this little article inspired.  I have spent a lot of years in the sports media industry.  Many years in bars and clubs.  In all my years, I never once talked with another man that had any respect for any woman.  They all just “objectified” women and thought they were entitled to do so simply because they were a man.  And it only sex that they thought about.  The most degrading and debasing language I have ever heard comes out of the mouth of men when they are talking about women.  My wife is a big feminist.  But why should that have to be said.  Why can’t men see that women have the same emotions, wants, ambitions, needs that we (as men) have.  I think it is because there are so many men with the wrong attitude and so few women that will stand up for their right to be first human, then respected, and lastly woman.  Keep standing up for yourselves ladies.  Demand respect.  And for all you men out there the see women as only what she can do for YOU, shame on you.  Grow up.  I am married to a powerful, honest, trustworthy, intelligent PERSON.  On, let me go look, I didn’t pay attention to wheither she was petty or hot,  I married the PERSON, not the outer shell.

@Aaron who writes:  “Why can’t men see that women have the same emotions, wants, ambitions, needs that we (as men) have?”  Because they don’t.  The perspectives of men and women are each seen through a different prism because they were created differently.  You would suggest there is really no difference between men and women.  Medical studies prove there is fundamental change in the first 30 days of of chromosomal gestation in the brain following conception which separates male from female.  And as for your years of hanging out in bars and clubs, your experience is associated with one brand of men only. Christian men do not hang out in bars and clubs, use degrading language and do not objectify women as you have experienced.  How complimentary to your wife that you have no attraction to her “outer shell.”  Then again, given the way you describe your marriage, she must think the same.

Aaron - as a woman, I feel qualified to say that we women have done this to ourselves. What “rights” feminism gained women, it just lost right back as a result of the loss of propriety. That realization though comes with age, and unfortunately, not when you’re 20 and dressing “cute” which to men just says “sex.” Getting women to start dressing as people worthy of respect is just about a lost cause anymore. Women refuse to believe the message they are sending to men, and men, well they’re men. It’s not an excuse for them to not control themselves, but dressing “sexy” is the equivalent of being lost overboard in an ocean, and cutting yourself on purpose to bleed and attract sharks. Same principle. Women want respect? Dress yourselves with respect.

to ilovepgh,
Yes, I hear you.  I did not go into enough detail.  All people should dress with respect and modesty in mind.  If you don’t respect yourself first, then no one who sees you will.  I do beleive that first impression are lasting impressions.  Both men and women.  What I meant was, I have found through the years that all men I have talked with (exception being my father and father-in-law) don’t respect women as people.  Men see them as just sex objects.

@Aaron, who says:  “What I meant was, I have found through the years that all men I have talked with (exception being my father and father-in-law) don’t respect women as people.  Men see them as just sex objects.”  ——Then you are talking to juvenile-minded immature boys, not men.

Lector,
You are correct.  I have since found a whole new circle of friends.  Real men, not little boys in grown up bodies.

to Lector - Excuse you.  I never described my marriage to you.  How dare you judge me without any knowledge.  How dare you think to belittle me because I stand up for my wife and what is decent.  How would you like it if someone told your wife that you only married her for her looks.  You seem not care if a woman has a brain in her head as long she has looks.  And by the way, YOU ARE WRONG about emotions, both men and women have the same emotions, they just express them differently.  IMHO you sound like a pious old man who is bitter at the entire world.

@Aaron I applaud you; and from a woman who has always wanted to put into words effectively what you just did, thank you.

Why should a woman frame her decisions based on what she thinks will best attract a man? This goes for both cases where a woman dresses “sexy” (why are people so afraid of that word?) to attract a man, and where a woman wears long skirts and long sleeves so that she can be granted approval by the men in her religious environment; fathers, brothers, pastors, etc. The goal should be for any woman to have the opportunity to develop herself intellectually, mentally, physically, and spiritually with the goal of learning more about her Heavenly Father and not so that she will be found attractive to other men which would “ideally” lead to marriage.

While I have a hope for a world in the future where women don’t feel the need to expose their bodies in order to gain approval of any kind, I think there is a deeper issue at hand that needs to be addressed, and that is the fact that simply so many people (men AND women) don’t know that their Heavenly Father loves them regardless of how they dress. Most scantily-clad women search for approval because they are not comfortable with who they are and as a result do what others tell them. Telling them that they need to cover up because it’s not attractive does not really help the problem, because they will still be dressing so that they can be attractive to others. Therein lies the problem itself, searching for approval from others; readily making themselves available for judgement; judgement that we are all too eager to readily dispose.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ love the girl who wears a mini skirt and a tank top every day just as much as they love the woman who wears long skirts and long sleeves. To them, there is no difference between them, they are valued the same. They love the girl who wears athletic wear every day and hardly ever dresses up as much as they love the girl who takes a large amount of her day doing her hair and makeup. To every other person, this should be enough.

God also loves the person who murders another person just as much as He loves someone who doesn’t murder another person. It isn’t about whether or not God loves us, it is about reflecting God properly in the world through our femininity and masculinity.

Dave, you’re right. God does love the murderer as much as he loves the law-abiding citizen. However, your comparison is extreme and not necessary.

If you argue that it is actually about reflecting Heavenly Father properly through femininity and masculinity, that’s a valid argument by itself. The problem is that ESPECIALLY with the issue of femininity, too many women have their femininity defined by other men who tell them what other men find attractive, as if that is their primary purpose. If more women were able to forge a meaningful relationship with God, they would then discover their worth does not lie in the attraction of other men, but purely by the fact that they are his daughters. This knowledge would equip more women with self-respect leading them to shape decisions based on their relationship with God, even decisions regarding what they wear. The outcome could very likely be wearing more modest clothing, but the reason would be so that they could reflect through their appearance the self-respect they have gained from learning about their divine heritage—not because it is more pleasing to other man.

Libby   +1

Libby, I would both agree with you and disagree with you. Yes a women should first find her worth in God just as a man should. However both men and women can learn from the opposite sex what they like in the opposite sex. Assuming that it is coming from a Christian perspective. A man knows what is feminine and attractive to him because he is a man and God made him to be attracted to femininity. The same with a women. She is attracted to masculinity and she has an idea of what is masculine. So both sex’s can help the other I think in this way. I see women dress like men and it is so unattractive to me. Would you be happy if you saw men wearing dresses 90% of the time. No men look funny in dresses. If women had to see that they would be being robbed of seeing masculinity. When I see women in pants I get the same feeling as when I see a man in a dress. It looks funny. If women only knew what a long skirt or a long dress does for them. How beautiful they are. How feminine they look. But according to you I can’t tell them. I understand there are cases when practically speaking pants need to be worn but I know girls who always wear skirts and dresses. They shine.

Dave, I don’t think there is anything particularly wrong with what you’re saying, since you are stating your personal preference, but I wouldn’t believe that you are speaking for all men. There is nothing wrong with complimenting a woman one on one if you are in a situation where you can. In fact, what you are saying about women ‘shining’ while they wear dresses and skirts is very sweet. It’s far less-reducing than many other such “compliments” men often pay to women. The IMPORTANT thing is that she dressed for herself, not because she felt pressured to do so because other men in her life told her that is what is found attractive to men AND that is where her worth lies, that her purpose in life is to constantly be attractive to men. Only God can tell someone what their purpose in life is, and that is where my main issue lies with this article. The author is basically saying ‘this is what men find attractive, not this. Change so that you will be what men actually want.’

I just want to state that I am not anti-feminine. I also don’t know if I would even identify as a feminist. The statements I have made are merely a part of the many questions I have in my search for the true meaning of being a daughter of Heavenly Father. I hope no one has taken any offense to what I’ve said.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! There needs to be a change in this world, and especially in America. We need girls & women to seek to be pretty, to seek satisfaction in Christ, not in being looked at by men. Praise God for your courage to post this! And again, thank you for not being afraid and choosing to write this!

Any woman who thinks that she should or will be judged solely and without any notice or reference to the way she dresses or presents herself is kidding herself.  Human beings only know what they “see”, as the interior of any individual is known only to themselves and God. Women who walk around looking in the “hot” mode are 9 times out of 10, being negatively judged whether they admit it to themselves or not.  Even if a man looks long and hard at them, you probably wouldn’t be happy if you actually knew “what” he was thinking. Most women are not jealous but rather wonder, “what is she thinking”!  Hot-dressing women should test the theory. Tone down hair, make-up and clothes and notice the different way you will be treated and respected. You’ll get less suggestive looks but a lot more smiles :-)

@Mary Ann - Sorry, but I wear form-fitting clothes AND have a brain. Lucky me that I can enjoy having a PhD, a career, a family, and a husband who respects me for who I am. Why does your definition of pretty include toned down hair?? Way to prove that religious people are the most judgemental out there!

@athenian   You say you “have a brain” but intelligence WITHOUT common sense isn’t worth the paper the Doctorate is written on!

@athenian_oracle: I’m sure I’m not the only one wondering why you keep coming back to this site. How does a woman who “has it all” have nothing better to do with her PhD?

I looked back a ways, and found where you wrote this, addressed to me: “I don’t dress modestly, so based on your virgin/slut dichotomy, I guess that means I dress “slutty.” As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t really matter to me what you see when I’m walking through the mall in my “immodest” attire. I still have the respect of others in my field, the respect and adoration of my husband, and that nice paycheck that a PhD warrants.”

I’m confused by one of your statements, where you say that you have the “respect of others in my field” does that mean you dress *immodestly* for work and you believe they still respect you? If you do, let me just say LOL

And please, I know you think highly of yourself (how many times have you thrown in your “PhD”?) but somehow you have none of the common sense to go along with those institution given credentials. Don’t kid yourself, you may think you don’t care what people think when you dress “immodestly” walking through the mall, but you most certainly do, because otherwise you wouldn’t dress for attention. A good friend of mine (male, divorced, atheist) once used the term “attention wh0res” when I was around him, and saw women dressing in very immodest ways. So how self-delusional can you be? Are you still in your 20’s? I can almost excuse your naivete. 30’s? You should be getting a clue by now. 40’s? There is no excuse.

Next time you strut your stuff through that mall in your immodest attire, in the middle of the summer, make purposeful eye contact with other women walking by you, and come back here and let me know what you see. Look at the eyes of men, and see if they’re looking at your face, thinking “what a good looking woman” or if their eyes are firmly planted on your breasts. Guarantee their eyes are chest level, and so all they’re doing is lusting after you, and many women, will give you an all over look and look away, thinking “tramp, why doesn’t she know better any why didn’t her mother teach her to respect yourself.” And that clerk smiling at you in your “immodest attire” as you buy another piece of trampy clothing, guarantee she’s not thinking “what an intelligent smart woman, I bet she has a PhD!”

Last thing to put under your PhD hat - one day, and sooner, oh much sooner than you think right now, you’ll be shuffling through that same mall in your not-so-cool clothes (they don’t make “immodest clothes” for 70 year olds, for good reasons), your breasts will be resting at your waist (unless you’re already saving up for plastic surgery), or maybe you’ll be riding around in that little scooter thing because you’re infirm, and every “immodestly” dressed young firm thing that flitters by, your husband will be staring at. Because that’s what you’re teaching him to do right now. And something tells me, you won’t enjoy it. And I won’t feel sorry for you, because the way you dress right now not only disrespects yourself, but it disrespects every other woman you encounter, and her husband/boyfriend/whatnot. It disrespects the mothers who are trying to raise chaste daughters, it disrespects young boys, who at 13 are already being trained, by you and others like you, to lust after women.

As women, we should never *purposefully* present ourselves as visual competition for our friend’s or co-worker’s husbands and boyfriends. It’s unkind, and it’s crude. Treat every woman you encounter as your sister, and you will end your life surrounded by a group of friends who will see you through births and deaths and tragedies and many good times. Continue treating other women as competition for men, and you will be alone. That’s just common sense. Do the loving thing, for yourself, and for your fellow sisters, all of them.

Save your slutty clothes for your bedroom and your husband, because the parts of you exposed in those clothes, belong only to him, and not to the 53 yr old slob strolling past you in the mall, hamburger grease still dripping off his chin. When you go out, dress with class, and then you really will have that respect. You will get genuine looks of admiration, instead of questionable and repulsed glances.

THAT is what everyone here has been trying to tell you. Whether you believe you’re a child of God or not is almost irrelevant in this discussion. What isn’t irrelevant, is that as women we deserve respect, and as a group, we’ll never get it until we all start dressing, and acting, with integrity.

@Mary Ann - There you go, problematically equating “religious sensibilities” with “common sense.” Your narrow idea of what it means to be non-conservative was highlighted nicely when you assumed my husband must be a “biker” if he doesn’t despise the way I dress. My pink hair, mini-dresses, tights, and industrial boots aren’t the only things that define me. As for the “worth” of my doctorate, the work I conducted while achieving it helped me become known for being a specialist in my area of research and to secure my tenure track teaching position. I’m sorry you’re so full of intolerance for others - I’m sure it will pass with time.

Perhaps women in this country should be forced to wear burkas.  That will learn them.

So true!  Women are sluts and it’s their fault when good men turn bad!  And really, everything I ever needed to learn about women is right there in the movie “Grease.”  Why haven’t I discovered this brilliant writer sooner?

the sluts should be stoned to death and their !@#$% !@#$% children sold to Africa

Wow, where did Atrios dig you up?

When Markos Moulitsas wrote “American Taliban” many conservatives complained that it was just over the top to compare the two groups.

Now and then we’re reminded that it’s actually not even an exaggeration.

Fundamentalists in the Middle East are very fond of going on about how Westerners “allow their women to dress like prostitutes”, it’s nice to see that in our own country among certain people the same thinking is alive and well.

This is question of men wanting to control women. That’s one of the main things the two fundamentalist groups have in common.

I thought you catholic types like little boys. Now you want pretty little girls, too? Greedy f..ks, aren’t you?

A hearty Captain Kudo to Pat for his bravery in explaining the wages of sin the sluttification of America has imposed. Indeed, much like the Godly Pat and the Godly Douthat, The Captain is himself a Nice Guy(TM) whose revulsion at the open legged slatterns has forced him into a life of lesser sin. For it is the strumpets siren that forces Pat, Ross, and The Captain himself to repeatedly spill our seed to relieve the conflict between Satan and Jesus Rodgriquez that builds in our loins whenever we watch Selena Gomez or Megyn Kelly.

Filthy strumpets. Fie on thee.

A hearty Captain Kudo to Pat for his bravery in explaining the wages of sin the sluttification of America has imposed. Indeed, much like the Godly Pat and the Godly Douthat, The Captain is himself a Nice Guy whose revulsion at the open legged slatterns has forced him into a life of lesser sin. For it is the strumpets siren that forces Pat, Ross, and The Captain himself to repeatedly spill our seed to relieve the conflict between Satan and Jesus Rodgriquez that builds in our loins whenever we watch Selena Gomez or Megyn Kelly.

Filthy strumpets. Fie on thee.

Oh absolutely, because when we ask women to dress modestly, we must, without doubt, be asking them to wear a burkha. 

It’s unfortunate that we can’t have civil conversations about any topic these days. The “tolerant left,” only tolerates itself. What a complete sham.

And the hostility is a nice touch too. Please, come to my house, call me names, mock my family, insult my beliefs. Raised by wolves, were we?

Good Grief, I hope you don’t get paid to write this drivel. I see all kinds of innocence in pretty in my neighborhood. Lots of lovely Muslim women dressed in lovely flowing garments, head to toe. Maybe that’s what you’re pining for, eh?

Oops I should have read ilovepgh’s comment before I posted. You may call the people who raised this Liberal wolves but I call them my Catholic Mother and Father. Devout Catholic my father, gave 10% of his earnings to the Church, still does, while his eight kids ran around in hand me downs. Now I’m helping him pay his bills. All that money went to the church, 68 years or his working life and what are they doing for him now? NOTHING.