Great post, Mark. Believe me, I despise not the revelation, either.

Thank you for this encouraging reminder to listen to Our Lady! I am ashamed to say that I had forgotten all about our Lady of Akita, until the earthquake in Japan made me remember her again. I too have decided to listen to her message and pray the Rosary daily for priest, bishops and the pope. All other prayers through out the day, I offer for the people of Japan and I will continue to do so until I am led elsewhere.

Thanks for writing this reminder, I think a daily Rosary is a terrific idea!

I am glad to see devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary be lived and spread via the apparitions of Fatima, just as it was via the apparitions of the Miraculous Medal a century ago. But still, it must be said that private revelation is not an obligation, and that for four good reasons.
One is mistake: In the apparitions of Our lady of Kibeho, a number of people swore to have messages from her and/or Jesus. But the Bishop only recognized three visionaries. The rest of the people were mistaken, and this includes the people who claimed the end of the world was neigh.
Two is lies: In the apparitions of Our Lady of Laus, a number of liars took advantage of the visionary’s fame to claim to be having visions, so they could be famous too, and this caused the visionary to suffer.
Three is truth: In India there is a idol which some people worship that is able to eat food offered to it, as if it were alive. Anyone with poor catechsis might believe this idol is proof that Hinduism is the truth, but the truth is truth and no private revelation is Public Revelation.
Four is love: Private revelations call us to live by Public Revelation, and so every genuine revelation should be read in light of the Faith. If a revelation says that there is evil to come or that our prayers must increase, we can rest assured that our response should be greater love.

This is spot-on.  Thank you!

Also from the Christmas Carol the ghost of Christmas Present had the two children clinging to his feet:
Scrooge asked,‘Spirit. are they yours?’
‘They are Man’s,’ said the Spirit, looking down upon
them. ‘And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers.
This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both,
and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy!”

Ignorance of the Good News and what it really stands for not the
tele-evangelist with his doom and hellfire. But the real Truth,
Light and Love of Jesus Christ.

God wants us all to be saved but we have to do our part, that is what
Our Lady at Akita and Fatima has asked of us.  I say the rosary daily; now I am saying 2 a day.. its 10-20 minutes of your day, is worth it for our sake and the sake of the world.

Mary’s message is very simple:  Prayer. 

We are the ones who screw it up and make it complicated. 

Just pray…..

Martha: “One that I disagree with you about is Medjugorge.”
Oh boy. Here we go.
Here comes the debate train.
Starring Pilgrim, Diane, and everyone else on both sides of the debate.
I’m outta here.

I think there is a pretty secure formula with private revelations. If the local Bishop has exercised his authority to approve it, then it is safe to take it seriously. Otherwise, you are taking a big risk because we all know that Satan loves to muddy the water with half-truths and outright lies. Follow the lead of the Bishop and you won’t go wrong. And at this point I really think you have to be pretty obstinate not to accept the reality of Fatima. There is just way too much evidence of providence at work to seriously harbor doubts about it.

A wonderful endorsement of the Rosary and the warnings of Our Lady of Fatima ! Your approach is so honest. You give a great example of a modern, logical father who is finally willing to try the daily Rosary with his family, as Our Lady ( & Father Patrick Peyton & our Popes) have begged us to do repeatedly. Would that hundreds, nay thousands, nay millions of parents of young children might read and be touched by your article ! I pray that it will go viral! Be aware, dear Mark,  that in the struggle to be faithful to the daily Family Rosary, your heart may become softened and more sensitive to the voice of Our Blessed Mother in other visitations of hers, similar to Akita,as in Rwanda.

Surely you know of the writings of Immaculee Ilibagiza about Our Lady of Kibeho, Rwanda.

Great article Mark.

Thank you mark for this wonderful post! My boyfriend and I have come to the same conclusion and are praying a daily rosary for repentance, grace and help.  We live in dark times. In Mary, moe

Mark, I agree with your comments about Medjugorje and the need for a focus on the message of Fatima, but was a little uneasy about what say about Akita. The information below comes from my website: site at http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/akita/akita.html
I have a lot more similar information which I could also bring forward.
One problem is the way that Bishop Ito was prepared to cede his authority to the Archbishop of Tokyo in regard to the first commission of inquiry, but that when the result of this inquiry was not to his liking he went to Rome to get permission to establish a second commission on which he took an active part.
It is true that the decision as to the authenticity of a particular apparition usually rests with the local bishop, but if that bishop asks a higher authority to judge a particular case, then surely he should abide by their decision? Otherwise the whole business just becomes a question of forming different commissions until the desired verdict is achieved.
Regarding Cardinal Ratzinger as a supporter of Akita, the apostolic nuncio in Japan, Bishop William Aquin Carew, noted in April 1990, that “His Eminence did not give any judgment on the reliability or credibility of the ‘messages of the Virgin.’ According to the transcription of the meeting, he simply affirmed that ‘there are no objections to the conclusions of the pastoral letter.’ ”
More recently, the situation has been further clarified. It appears that the Vatican has not approved of Akita, as the following statement from the Apostolic Nuncio in Tokyo, Ambrose de Paoli, issued in 1999, makes clear. In response to a query from the editor of a British Catholic magazine, the Apostolic Nuncio stated: “The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has asked me to respond to your query re: Akita. ... The Holy See has never given any kind of approval to either the events or messages of Akita.” (Christian Order, December 1999, p. 610.)
As regards the wider Church, following the first commission, the Japanese bishops’ conference decided against Akita, and ordered that group pilgrimages to the shrine should cease, although they were prepared to allow individuals to visit the convent. Indeed, in 1990, the president of the conference, Peter Seiichi Shirayanagi, told 30 DAYS, in what were described as terms of “unusual harshness,” that, “The events of Akita are no longer to be taken seriously. We think they do not now have a great significance for the Church and Japanese society.” (30 DAYS Magazine, July -August 1990, “The Tears of Akita,” by Stefano M. Paci, p. 45).
In addition, as you point out, one of the alleged messages is quite apocalyptic in tone, and speaks of fire which will “fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity ...” At one time it was claimed that this paralleled the contents of the third part of the secret of Fatima, but that is clearly not the case.
It also states that: “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops.” This type of message is more characteristic of the contents of unapproved visions than approved ones.
So all of this indicates that it seems appropriate to regard Akita as questionable.

Regarding the comments on Medjugorje from Greg and caligal, all your points and more are answered at the following sites and blogs:

http://te-deum.blogspot.com/

http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com

http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/

www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/home.html

http://en.louisbelanger.com/

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/books/medjbook/medjbook.html

It is correct that we are not obligated to beleive private, approved revalations.  Yet we all can agree on the power of the rosary in history, as in Austria, where te bishops called for all to pray for freedom and the communists just left, or the Battle of Lepanto, and so on. 

Mark is so right; our country and the world, needs us all to pray the roasary.  Differn on revalations, that is fine, yet let us all come together, begging our Lady to continue holding her mantle over us, protecting us from our good God who has every right to be upset with the way we are.

Christ’s peace,

Judy

I recently read the Akita messages on the same ewtn site.  What doesn’t make sense is how God will chastise and punish mankind in a way that is even greater than the flood?  To me, this contradicts the promise that God made to Noah.  Wouldn’t this raise red flags?

My apologies for the comment on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2011 8:21 AM (EST). I do not mean to provoke sin or offend anyone. But if I have, may God correct me. Pax Christi.

It’s very simple—early on in St. Faustina’s apparitions, Our Lord told her to ask her superior for permission to perform some extreme penances.  She came back and said her superior said no.  Our Lord said that it was a test, because He values obedience to the Church above all else, and a person should listen to the Church first, even above personal penances and private revelations.

I don’t believe Donal Foley is correct in stating that apparitions of our Lady of Akita have not been approved by teh Church. In June 1988, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.  Just about every source I check (e.g. EWTN)reports this as accurate.  So I would be most interested in why Mr. Foley disagrees.

I wish God would allow Father Patrick Peyton to come back for awhile and rally the troops with the Holy Rosary like he did 40 or so years ago.  Thanks for this article.  God bless you

Surely Satan is delighting in the infighting of God’s children.  It provides a distraction so that he can sneak unnoticed and infiltrate the Church even more. Prayer, fasting, conversion. Time and time again, Our Lady implores us to use these weapons against the Prince of Lies.

An interesting list of Marian Apparitions of the 20th Century:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/aprtable.html

If you find the Rosary taking too much time ( honest, you probably
day dream or pursue idle thoughts for a lot more time !  but, IF you really can’t spare that 15 minutes for the Rosary ),  I highly recommend
the Divine Mercy Chaplets. Devoted Protestant friends love this set of prayers too.
Pope John Paul II highly recommend this Chaplet.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your comments. Yesterday after Mass a Medjugorge zealot accosted me with literature about an alleged apparition in Georgia. Did not check to see if it was Conyers. I politely told her that I don’t believe in it. I believe in Fatima. She told me that this and Meddjugorge were continuations of the Fatima message. I said, I don’t think so. She replied, Well, I SAW the sun spin at M. I said, I do know that Satan can work all sorts of wonders to convince us of something. I should have learned long ago that the M zealots will not take “no” for an answer. I asked her if she attended the beautiful Fatima devotions on the 1st Saturday of the month at this parish. She indicated she does “sometimes.” I keep wondering why people who believe in Fatima and Lourdes are not screaming and yelling when they encounter someone who does not believe in them? (Thank God they are not!)We have missed the mark on fulfilling the requests of Our Lady at Fatima. I have read Foley’s book and am finishing Fr. Apostoli’s wonderful 2010 book on Fatima. Perhaps we need to ask our priests to begin the Fatima First Saturday devotion every month. And to promote Fatima so that her requests will be granted, and we will finally have that peace when her Immaculate Heart triumphs over evil. Remember, too, The family that prays together (the rosary?) stays together. We recited it as children with our mother every night, we recited it as a family every night, and I trust that Our Lady will gather all the “strays from the fold” together before their death.

Everything in life increases in value by the light of daily sunshine in 15 minutes with Mary in the Rosary. It is an encouraging sign that there is a resurgence in the recognition of this fact. How she appears, to whom, and where, really is of little significance in light of our ability to choose to commune with her.

Thank you for reminding us of this.

To Mike Malone: I have seen those links indicating Cardinal Ratzinger’s approval of Akita, (e.g. http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm) but the info just says:

“June, 1988—Vatican City—Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.”

There is no link to a document authenticating this. And as I indicate on my site, there is later info to indicate that Cardinal Ratzinger was not 100% in favour of Akita.

This is quite apart from all the negative indications about the person of the visionary and the messages themselves.

All I am saying is, be cautious, because the evidence suggests Akita is not genuine.

Great article! I’ve just recently begun praying the rosary daily as well. A series of APPROVED apparitions which for some reason no one knows about is Our Lady of Kibeho as well as the approved apparitions of Jesus in the same area. Look them up. Our Lady foretold the genocide in Rwanda (where Kibeho is located), and asked for an increase in faith and strength. She has also warned of the coming of the Kingdom, which will soon follow the outbreak of religious wars. She has asked for repentance, praying the rosary, and praying the rosary of the Seven Sorrows.

A quick search brought me to this article: http://faithofthefathersapparitions.blogspot.com/2006/03/our-lady-of-kibeho.html
It’s a good, brief overview of the visions.

John Barry:  Why take a chance on an unapproved apparition?  I suggest we listen to the Church and give our attention to the approved apparitions (or at least don’t dispute the authenticity of the approved apparitions).  Why take even the “smallest” chance of being misled by a hoax or Satanic trick?  Our Lady (in the event of an approved apparition) will surely have no problem with the Church going through the process of certifying Her authenticity and people waiting for the Church’s approval before giving adoration.  I imagine it would please Her to know we are obeying the Church.

In the interest of full disclosure, I’m actually not entirely on board with the whole apparition thing but am am submitting to the Church and not disputing the authenticated appartitions, which I understand is a permissible stance.  If it isn’t, I’m sure I’ll be lovingly corrected by one or more combox partisans *grin*  In the meantime, I’m actually going to try to read the third volume of Mark’s “Mary, Mother of the Son: Miracles, Devotion, and Motherhood” (sorry Mark… I bought it along with the other two I actually wanted to read when they first came out and haven’t even opened Volume III a single time).

THANK I WILL PRAYER THE HOLY ROSARY EVERYDAY AND THEN SOME GODBLESS ALL

Another good habit to get into is to pray an extra decade of the Holy Rosary on behalf of the Holy Souls in Purgatory.  Saint Bernadette encouraged this practice heartily. 

What’s good for Saint Bernadette is good for me!

John Barry:  I’m not saying it IS a Satanic trick.  Heck, I’m not comfortable with the supernatural at all and have no personal opinion either way for any any particular apparition, approved or unapproved. 

I’m just saying I probably won’t give the matter another moment of real thought until the Church makes a decision one way or the other.  I hope it IS genuine.  I hope it convinces me about the supernatural and I have some spiritual awakening.  However, I’ll wait until the verdict is back with the official papal seal.  At that point, I’ll imagine that, instead of any major changes, I’ll probably move it from “one of those apparations that hasn’t even been proven real yet, so why the heck should I care” to “one of those apparations I can’t criticize but really don’t care about”.  My point is it can’t ever hurt to wait for official approval first.  Seriously… the Church knows what it’s doing (in the long run, at least).

I think that your disinterest in conspiracy theories is irresponsible. As to reciting the prayers of the Rosary, I’ll do it each day in reparation for my sins.

I would like to only comment on one segment of Donal Foley’s link:

<<<
It also states that:“The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops.” This type of message is more characteristic of the contents of unapproved visions than approved ones.
>>>

While generally true, in and of itself this statement may have an orthodox interpretation to it as well (e.g., by simply being true, even if dire).

I would argume that a statement like this should not be used as an argument for the authenticity of the apparitions or against it. There are also many approved apparitions that too have a very apocalyptic style, as well as many others that out-do it and are clearly condemned.

Otherwise, good research. It would appear to me that Akita is much less controversial than Medjugorje or Garabandal, but you’re right in stating that it’s still not in a place of “full”* support as arguably Fatima, Lourdes and even the Divine Mercy messages could be said to be.

* We know they aren’t binding, but there aren’t very any common objections to these today based doctrinal or pastoral reasons or need for reservation. The same cannot be said of other alleged apparition sites.

Very good article, Mark. I am traveling the country with the National Pilgrim Statue of the USA promoting the Message of Fatima. In San Bernardino this month. The Message of Fatima is primarily about saving souls from hell by prayer and reparation. We were told that war (and any discord, including abortion) is the result of sin, and peace can be acquired only by the conversion of sinners. The Angel of Peace, one year before Our Lady appeared, gave us a prayer to say: “My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee; I beg your pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore…etc.” He emphasized that everyone say this prayer very often (like once a day). For reparation he said “above all, accept and bear with submission the suffering that God will send you and offer it for the conversion of sinners.” Sister Lucia said this meant to her the trials and tribulation of daily life. The Angel said “You will thus draw down peace upon your country. That’s pretty simple, and we now have over 20,000 U.S. Catholics doing this all together in the World Apostolate of Fatima USA…and the number is growing daily (209 more just today).

I thought THE CHURCH is still out on the subject of ... and that local bishop is also awaiting the verdict.

Medjugorje is without question a major Marian shrine. That doesn’t prove Our Lady ever appeared there. There are clear problems with some of the messages. La Salette was approved by the Church, but not all the messages; the later messages were repudiated by the Church. So, we still have to wait for the Church’s official decision—on the claimed apparitions themselves and on all of the individual messages.

I was told on reputable authority that Pope Paul personally approved of the messages reputedly given by Our Lady to Marie-Paule Guigere foundress of the Army of Mary in Quebec; until her followers declared her the reincarnation of the Blessed Virgin and she accepted the honor. Something to think about.

Bill, in regards to your 20,000 people saying the Fatima Prayer, make that 20,002.  My husband and I say it twice a day and have for about 2 years.  I heard it on EWTN and thought it was so beautiful.  Keep up the good work.  Wish I had known about your visit to San Bernardino.

Speaking of approved revelations…
This one certainly carries a prayer appropriate for our times:
http://www.de-vrouwe.info/en/
or www.ladyofallnationsusa.org
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father,
Send now Your Spirit over the earth.
Let the Holy Spirit dwell in the hearts of all nations,
That they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war.
May the Lady of All Nations, the Blessed Virgin Mary, be our Advocate. Amen

You are right to be wary of private revelation..unless it is church approved.In todays world it is very easy to be misled.Until the given sign or miracle takes place that the church recognizes as from God,then places such as Garabandal,Medjugorge and Akita must be taken with a grain of salt.It is ok to visit these places and perhaps there is something to them that you can use to better your faith and yourself as a person..but to do so with reservation.It is mentioned in scripture that in the end days there will be one who will perform false miracles and fool even the most elect of the church..so it is very important to stick with Church teachings and follow the example of Christ and the saints throughout the years..if you do this there really is no need for the other things…why work yourself up over things that you have no control over anyway..and afterall most of these places echo what we as Catholics are supposed to be doing anyway..trusting in God and praying the rosary..if we all did this imagine how differant the world will be.

In view of the frequent references to Scrooge, & the absence of compassion seen in today’s conservatives & the corporate world; I would remind you of the same scene with the ghosts from the past, etc. “Business”, cried the ghost of Marley, wringing his hands again, “Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business.”

Luke 13: 4
And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe and slew them: think you that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you: but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Recourse to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, First Saturday Devotions and daily recitation of the Rosary, are the sure means which heaven gives us to reform our lives and save our souls and others.

Our Lady’s message at Fatima, a message which has been endorsed by Holy Mother Church, is more urgent and more relevant than ever for all of us in these perilous times.

It was my impression that Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger approved Akita, but that it is an unpopular apparition in some cirlces, who still claim it is not approved.  But approved or not approved, it certainly is turning ut to be accurate.

@Mitch:

From Donal’s first post in this thread…. In response to a query from the editor of a British Catholic magazine, the Apostolic Nuncio [Ambrose de Paoli] stated: “The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has asked me to respond to your query re: Akita. ... The Holy See has never given any kind of approval to either the events or messages of Akita.” (Christian Order, December 1999, p. 610.)

Pray to the Blessed Mother and ask for her intercession in Japan.  A Rosary prayed to her, is prayer well received.

As a general comment it is good to see the posts from people who support Fatima and doing what they can to spread the Fatima message and devotions – and especially the Five First Saturdays devotion.

I heartily agree with Tim Brandenburg regarding Medjugorje - Why take a chance on an unapproved apparition? Surely it is unnecessarily risky when the Church has given so much support for Fatima?

Regarding Matt J’s comments about the apocalyptic style of the Akita message, that is: “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops.”

I’m not aware of any major authentic Marian apparitions that speak in that way about internal problems in the Church – I mean the approved messages, rather than ones which might have arisen later e.g. via Melanie at La Salette. And assuming the original secret assigned to her is authentic, the worst that she says in this regard, in connection with future persecutions is: “[Among] God’s ministers, and the Spouses of Jesus-Christ, there will be some who will go astray, and that will be the most terrible.”

In fact comments about priests, the Pope etc in the approved apparitions are quite often references to the persecutions they will face.

I agree that the argument is not decisive based just on this one Akita message, but it does call it into question.

Regarding Terri’s post on Amsterdam, regrettably, I would also have to say that that is suspect too.

Although it was approved in 2002 by the local bishop, the original bishop, Bishop Huibers, said in 1956 that he “found no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions.” And this judgment was reiterated in L’Osservatore Romano, on June 27th 1974.

I have placed details of all this on my site at:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/amsterda/amsterda.html

Regarding Mitch’s comment that Akita is turning out to be accurate, I presume he means this alleged message:

“As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.”

As far as I can see though, the present situation in Japan has been caused by a purely human decision to build the Nuclear plants in an earthquake/tsunami zone, which was just foolish. It could well turn out that a nuclear disaster of some sort does take place – please God that won’t happen – but if it does, it will have nothing to do with the Akita message, which clearly indicates a deliberate punishment from heaven. And of course a “punishment greater than the deluge” is extremely unlikely anyway, since the deluge completely wiped out humanity, apart from those in Noah’s Ark.

Finally, what Diane says is right – we ought to all be earnestly praying the Rosary!

Mark Shea:  Sorry, but I just couldn’t get into Volume III of your Mary Trilogy.  I’m just not fully there yet on the supernatural.  Eucharist changing into Body, Blood, & Divinity… you bet.. apparitions… not so much.

Have no fear… it took four years for your purgatory article in This Rock magazine to bring me around, which was one of the last hurdles that had prevented me from jumping the Tiber.

Mr. Shea, as an admirer of yours, I’m a bit disappointed that you blow off Medjugorje so easily! I’ll admit that with three decades of commercialism, anything is bound to attract some funny business. However, I’m inclined to wonder if you’ve really done your research on this one. I challenge you to read the original interviews with the visionaries, look at the preceding 100 year history of the area leading up to the apparitions, the incidents with the Bishop and the Franciscans preceding the apparitions and last but not least, its fruits. If you still think it’s bushwah, fine, as for me, it would take some pretty hard evidence to convince me that it is not authentic. After all, remember, it took 13 years for Fatima to be approved. Padre Pio was hit with a bit of speculation too, wouldn’t you say?

I am truly sorry that you feel that way about Medjugorje.If you would go there and see the numbers of people going to confession who have not practiced their faith for years; if you would speak to the priests who entered the seminary after their first visit to Medjugorje; if you would look at the tremendous numbers of physical healings that have taken place there or came about as a result of intercessions made while there; if you would look at the tremendous number of weekly prayer groups that have formed as a result of pilgrimages; if you would have a little humility and pray for the Blessed Mother’s help in understanding rather than criticizing, you would see the fruits of Her apparitions.

I understood we were asked to refrain from commenting on Medjugorje.
Is the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima not enough; the sign of the great Aurora Borealis predicting the imminence of World War II; the great persecutions announced by Our Lady; the solemn endorsement of these apparitions by the bishops with local competence and Popes for nearly over 90 years?
Do not turn away from the approved messages of Our Lady of Fatima. Do not be deceived by running here and there because some claim to have heard her voice in this place or that.
Cling to Her and do not be deceived.

Regarding Joshua Ramsey’s remarks on Medjugorje, he mentions the “original interviews with the visionaries,” but he is probably referring to interviews conducted several years after the alleged visions began. The best source for what actually took place during the first week is the book by Fr Sivric, who transcribed tapes of the visionaries being interviewed by Fr Zovko, the parish priest, and his curate over the first week or so.

These contain many revealing things, and particularly the fact that the visions were supposed to end on 3 July 1981 – yet here we are 30 years later and no end in sight.

The title of the book is The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, and it is available via this site:

http://en.louisbelanger.com/the-hidden-side-of-medjugorje/

The situation is changing and there is now a lot more objective evidence out there to show the problems with believing in Medjugorje. For example there is an excellent site dealing with many aspects at:

www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/home.html

and another one at:

http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com

Regarding E. Schmitz’s comments, and the alleged fruits of Medjugorje, it should be realized that these cannot be used to authenticate it. Firstly we have to establish whether or not the visions are actually genuine. This is the procedure followed in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith document, Normae Congregationis. An unofficial translation of this can be seen here:

http://d-rium.blogspot.com/p/normae-s-congregationis.html

That is why the Sivric book is so valuable, since it clearly demonstrates the many problems in believing that the first visions are genuine.

Apart from that, none of the claimed healings at Medjugorje has ever been accepted by any official ecclesiastical body, so ultimately, they have no value in the eyes of the Church.

Good one, Mark.  You said enough that anyone who does chase after apparitions should at least agree with you on the cure—prayer and repentance. I once believed in Medjugordje and some of my family still does.  It got me started praying the daily rosary and drew me deeper into the Church.  I think for many, the inspiration to become more devout is all the proof they need that an apparition is true.  But we have holiness within us that can be ignited through our prayers and our faith.
I even visited Conyers with my Dad years ago. The point is that our prayers were real and they were not in vain. I believe that God can send his Blessed Mother so I went when it seemed to be bearing good fruits. However, I trust the Church in her judgements.  God will have authority over those judgements so we can trust them. The whole thing eventually fell apart even though tens of thousands used to go out there.

I love your bold courage in your anti- statements. I once did an article supporting the local bishop’s condemnation of Holy LOve ministries in OH and the supposed apparitions. Boy, did I get a backlash of anger from people refusing to let go of what they believed were true apparitions.  The Church and approved apparitions are enough to fill all our spiritual needs.
Good article and important message. Thanks.

The prayer to the Lady of All Nations(above)has been approved: see
http://www.de-vrouwe.info/en/change-by-the-congregation-for-the-faith-2006

As someone who firmly believes medjugorje is NOT genuine, and who has read Mr Foley’s book, may I say that I have serious problems with his methodology:
(1) He seems to treat resemblance to Fatima as the litmus test of an apparition’s genuineness, as if God and Our Lady were bound by a script.  (There is a passage in UNDERSTANDING MEDJUGORJE where he maintains that an apparition resembling Lourdes and not Fatima is inherently suspicious, as if Lourdes were not also an approved apparition.)
(2) He asks in one of his posts on this page why anyone should pay attention to unapproved apparitions when they have Fatima.  If this approach were followed we would never have any more approved apparitions, because the persistence of devotion to them is one of the criteria used for assessing their genuineness; Knock, for example, was a focus of popular devotion for decades before it received formal episcopal approval.  I might add that even belief in approved apparitions cannot be a matter of faith; it is quite possible to be a faithful Catholic and formally disbelieve in Fatima, for example, though clearly this would be unfortunate if it is in fact genuine.  ( I believe Lourdes and Knock were genuine; I have an open mind on Fatima though I think it was probably genuine; I believe the miracle of the sun was an optical illusion caused by atmospheric conditions and that what seems miraculous is not any movement of the sun but the children’s foreknowledge.) 
(3) UNDERSTANDING MEDJUGORJE strikes me as a book which makes a good case very badly.  A good assessment should in my view begin by setting out its methodology, then it should give an account of what is supposed to have occurred, finally it should assess the credibility of the supposed events by the standard it has laid down.  Mr Foley never sets out his criteria en bloc, and he is always interrupting his narrative to throw anything he can throw at the visionaries (for example, he treats the priest’s initial suspicion that they might have been smoking dope as evidence that they HAD been smoking dope and then refers to this as if it were factually established).  This “any stick to beat the apparition with” approach means that the uncommitted reader is repelled and such vital facts as the so-called apparition’s endorsement of Fr Vlasic are lost in a welter of detail.
  BTW one point Foley misses out on is where one of the visionaries claimed the apparition shaped itself into an image from a blur.  Mr Foley notes that the major apparitions up to Fatima have Our Lady simply appearing and suggests this indicates diabolic influence.  A much more likel explanation, IMHO, is that the “visionaries’” expectations, unlike those of their pre-cinematic predecessors, were influence by seeing films which employ the technique of the cinematic “dissolve”.  This technique (blur becomes solid image) was adopted to disguise the fact that until recently cinematic technology was not up to showing solid objects appearing out of nowhere - a limitation which does not apply to God and the Virgin Mary!

A further point on Terri’s post about the Lady of All Nations:

Regarding this prayer, the original runs,

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father,
send now Your Spirit over the earth.
Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all nations,
that they may be preserved
from degeneration, disaster, and war.
May the Lady of All Nations, [who once was Mary]
be our advocate. Amen.

But the phrase “who once was Mary” had to be changed to “the Blessed Virgin Mary,” at the request of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Personally, the fact that the prayer did say “who once was Mary” is quite disturbing. I’m aware that various reasons have been put forward in an attempt to justify this phrase, but I am very uneasy about it. Surely it is indicating there is something basically wrong with these alleged visions?

Who but the devil, or some diabolical inspiration, would want to suggest that Mary had now dropped her name?

In the Divine Praises we say:

Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.

And what about the Feast of the Holy Name of Mary, on 12 September, which is still apparently a feast on the General Roman Calendar.

Apart from that some of the messages associated with Amsterdam are very strange: what about this one from 29 August 1945, in which Ida saw the Pope, as she heard: “Broad views, more socialized. That must be the goal. Different trends of opinion incline toward a good socialism. That is good, but on the condition that what is done be done under the direction of the Church.”

Or, the twenty-fifth vision, on 10 December 1950, which has Ida say: “I seem to see the Lady striking her fist against a table.”

That doesn’t sound like the real Our Lady to me.
(quotes from Raoul Auclair, The Lady of All Peoples, trans. E. Massecar, (L’Armée de Marie, Inc., Quebec, 1978).

I can provide lots more examples of this sort of thing.

I am a newcomer to posting responses to comments on blogs, but I don’t understand why people like Hibernicus make posts using pseudonyms – I don’t see the point of it – why not be open about who you are? I could understand it if someone was a whistle blower afraid of losing their job or something like that, but not in a forum like this.

Moving on to his points: to my mind it only makes sense to compare unapproved apparitions with genuine ones, if we are discern the truth about them. We move from what is certain, morally speaking, to what is questionable, and judge them on that basis.

I focus on Fatima because of the unprecedented amount of support it has received from the Papacy and the Church in general, and also because of the crucial importance of its message for world peace. It is by far the most important of the major Marian apparitions. In the light of that, support for Medjugorje is at best a distraction and at worst a diabolical disruption of the unity and harmony which ought to exist in the Church.

Hibernicus’s views about Fatima and the Miracle of the sun clearly show that he hasn’t really grasped what Fatima is about or its importance.

I don’t understand the basis for his criticisms of the methodology of Understanding Medjugorje– the approach he is describing would seem to be more suitable for a text book, than one for the general reader, which is the readership I had in mind.

I don’t actually state that any of the visionaries definitely used drugs – just that witnesses at the time suspected this. All I have done is present the facts about the visionaries, and let the reader make up their own mind.

I’m afraid, likewise, that Hibernicus’s view that the appearance of the Gospa as reported by the visionaries is due to their experience of watching films is not supported by the evidence in Fr Sivric’s transcripts of the tapes of the original interviews. Here it’s quite clear that they were reporting what they saw, as they saw it.

Overall regarding his views of my book, they weren’t shared by the Mariologist Msgr Arthur Calkins, who stated in his review:

“It has long seemed to me that a balanced and authoritative response would require a team of experts fluent in Croatian in order to untangle the complex phenomenon of Medjugorje: the enormous mass of seemingly contradictory statements by the visionaries, the propaganda generated by its devotees, the favorable writings of well-known mariologists and commentators, the personal testimonies of those who claim to have had “conversion experiences” there and those of priests who claim to have heard there the best and most sincere confessions of their lives, the statements of the former Yugloslav Episcopal Conference as well as those of the past and present Bishops of Mostar-Duvno, the Diocese in which Medjugorje is located. I am now fairly convinced that Donal Foley has done a great deal of that necessary work in assembling, untangling and sorting out the studies already carried out by experts and then weighing and evaluating them.”

Other positive reviews can be seen at:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/books/medjbook/medjcomm.html

RE:  fire from the sky being “apocalyptic”:  that may well be on the way, given the meltdown of multiple reactors at Fukushima.  And the bull’s eye of maximum destruction in the tsunami of March 11th might well describe an arrow pointing straight at Akita, only one hundred miles away as the crow flies.  I myself saw an apparition in Japan; that land of martyrs—and of the atomic bombs—would seem to be a perfect stage for just such an apparition as that of Akita, and a perfect backdrop for such warnings.

Luke, I think it is stretching things way too far to equate the Akita message, with its talk of “Fire will fall from the sky,” with what has
happened in Japan. In the book of Genesis we read that the “Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord our of heaven .. “(Gen 19:24).  In other words this was a direct divine punishment. The Akita message, if it means anything, means something like that, and not a natural/man-made disaster as at the nuclear power plant.

How can you know that for sure?  We have taken into our own hands the means of our destruction, and the next rain of fire and brimstone may well be man-made.  Or maybe not; I’m not claiming to know the answer. 

By the way, Mr Shea, a very fine article indeed. 
But I’m still wondering whether Akita is approved or not.

Is no one aware that the reason the Church has not yet approved Medjugorje is that the apparitions have not yet stoppoed? The Church can only give her approval of sites once it is over. JPII himself WANTED to go, but he knew that he could not as it would have been as though he sanctioned it.

Lisa-Marie said: Is no one aware that the reason the Church has not yet approved Medjugorje is that the apparitions have not yet stoppoed? The Church can only give her approval of sites once it is over

It is true that an alleged apparition cannot be approved while ongoing.  But, as we have seen in several cases, the events of some have been condemned as not supernatural while ongoing, such as those associated with Holy Love Ministries. Those “apparitions” continue today and often hurl venom at the diocese for having issued a decree!

This begs the question:  If an apparition cannot be approved while ongoing, then why the new commission at this time?  We know it is not simply to offer pastoral changes because the Apostolic Nuncio to Bosnia-Herzegovina explained the Pope’s intentions:

From personal experience, every time I met the Holy Father he had great interest in the question of Medjugorje, a question to which he was directed from the very beginning that he became prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It deals with a question for which he feels responsible as the supreme head of the Church to pronounce a clear message

The Holy Father personally knows it very well and he has told me that several times - he is well acquainted with the whole phenomenon. He knows about the great good that is being done in this region by the priests, the Franciscan friars, and the laity. And on the other hand he asks himself how come there is information in such opposition to this phenomenon.

There are various translations floating around on pro-Medjugorje sites.  The one I have provided was translated by Father Philip Pavich who spent over a decade in Medjugorje as a translator.  He has since come out against authenticity.  His translation is of the text found at the website of the B-H Bishop’s Conference.  http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/2010/04/archbishop-derrico-papal-nuncio-to-bih.html

With those words in mind, it leaves little doubt that some kind of judgement will come forth out on Medjugorje. 

Since it is still ongoing, it pretty much rules out any kind of approval. The best Medjugorje devotees can hope for is the status quo.

It is good you have taken up one of Our Lady’s most important requests - that of the family rosary. If you persevere on this path - “those who pray will know why she is appearing” - what you will discern in these next few months is going to awaken you in a new way!

God bless you.

BTW, I forgot to mention, when I started the family rosary it was accepted until the novelty wore off, then the kids fought it on many a night, and I had to force it upon the household.  Just like not wanting to take a medicine when sick because it tastes ‘yukky’, you will have your little battles over prayer!  Good luck with that, and again, God bless!

It is not worth mentioning medjugojre, I follow it for 20 year and it turn me to Fatima and now I prayed to Our Lady of Fatima, say my Rosary daily, I have only a few word to say to those that take “no” for an answer, the so called defender of Medjugojre, please, common sense can tell you that after 34,000 so called messages from Gospa something is going very wrong and I don’t need anyone to tell me anymore.

I was about to go in 2008 and while praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary, asking Her to help me make the trip, a book about Fatima came to my door and I wake up ever since, I hope and pray that many would soon wake up from the beautiful medjugojreian dream and start to smell the coffee and get back to the basic, go to Holy Mass, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, Station of the Cross,and prayed the Rosary, Thanks Mark, we are simple people and BV.Mary know that, we don’t need 33,954 messages of year 29 to tell us to comb our hair, brush our teeth, put on our shirt and put on our pant, She keep it simple and short” PRAY THE ROSARY”.

I just don’t understand the venom that so many have against Medjugorje. A tree is knowb by its fruits. Since the fruits of this little town in the middle of Bosnia have shown to be increased prayer, fasting, and a greater devotion to praying the rosary, then why do people feel the need to attack it?
I had the privelege of going there was I was 18 and rather apathetic to things to do with our faith. I didn’t see any miracles, I didn’t experience anything supernatural, but I did experience a profound feeling of peace and the first true experience of feeling the presence of someone greater than me. Call it “mass hysteria” and mob mentality if you want.
Frankly, it doesn’t matter what the popular or unpopular opinion is. The only people who feel strongly against the happenings at Medjurgorje are those who have never been there. Anyone who has been to that town (who has an open heart) can vouch for the fact that the fruits of it are good.

Further to Diane Korzeniewski’s response to Lisa-Marie, the Vatican has intervened in the past, as in the case of the false visions at Heroldsbach in Germany, in July 1951, even though these were said to have continued until October 1952.  So there is no intrinsic reason why the visions at Medjugorje could not be condemned by the Church, even while they are alleged to be continuing. As for Pope John Paul II’s private position on Medjugorje, that is not binding on Catholics.

I think Poor Servant has summed up the situation well - it is completely unbelievable that the Blessed Virgin could have appeared over 30,000 times to the Medjugorje visionaries - it just doesn’t make sense.

And regarding Lisa-Marie’s further point about the “fruits” -these can only be accepted as truly positive after it has been established that the actual visions in questions are genuine, as set out in the 1978 CDf docuemnt on apparition discernment Normae Congregationis. And that is certainly not the case with Medjugorje. (By the way, I have been there!)

I think one (certainly not the only one) of the difficulties with the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje is that the sheer tonnage of verbiage of these messages seems so profoundly at odds with the economic and precise style and language employed by Our Lady in her approved apparitions.
If a definitive judgement cannot be rendered by the Church (the local bishop has disapproved the authenticity of the apparitions I understand)until an apparition stops talking then the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje seem to have hit upon the ultimate method for postponing forever just such a judgement. In the end, I think the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje are intended, by whomever or what ever is causing them, to distract from Our Lady’s messages to the Church and mankind given at Fatima.

The real danger, of course, is that by now so very many have inextricably linked their Catholic Faith and spiritual practice to the certain conviction of the ultimate authenticity of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje that should the alleged apparitions be discredited finally one day, their Faith and spiritual practices will suffer, at best, a grave blow or, at worst, wither and die.

Lisa Marie said: The only people who feel strongly against the happenings at Medjurgorje are those who have never been there. Anyone who has been to that town (who has an open heart) can vouch for the fact that the fruits of it are good.

I lived just outside of Mostar from the end of 1980 to early 1983. I was there when it started, met the visionaries, witnessed good fruits of people availing themselves to the Sacraments.

Does this qualify as having been to Medjugorje?

It’s amazing that in my current parish of Assumption Grotto in Detroit, Mi, I personally witness the same kinds of good fruits. I see these in a few other local parishes. What they have in common is strong Eucharistic and Marian devotion, sound preaching on the truths of the faith - all of them, not just the convenient ones. This leads to long confession lines as people look inward and work to purge sin from their lives.

Christ did not leave us the “Church of Medjugorje” whereby one has to keep going there to live out the Catholic faith. Rather, we are suppose to have all of these good things, which belong to the treasury of the Church, in our parishes.

I have seen no approved apparition where followers felt the need to return many times, sometimes dozens of times, as they do with Medjugorje.

Could it be that people did not return to other apparition sites because the apparitions stopped already before they could?  Only Laus from what I know lasted as long (or longer?) but that one was relatively unknown. Many visit and return again to Fatima, Lourdes, and other sites multiple times, even with no allegedly ongoing apparition. I am not sure people visiting multiple times to any site of an alleged apparition is proof for or against any of them.

Another equally real danger, of course, is that by now so very many have inextricably professed their unequivocal opposition to the certain conviction of the ultimate falsehood of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje that should the alleged apparitions be recognized finally one day, their Faith and spiritual practices will suffer, at best, a grave blow or, at worst, wither and die. 

I read one poster in another blog who said, “Even if the Church approves Medjugorje, it is not a requirement to believe in any private revelation.  I can say beyond any doubt I will never believe in it since the local bishop rejected it, and there was disobedience to him from the alleged apparition.” While this is true, I am not sure it shows wisdom. If the Church were to approve it, one wold have to think Blessed Mary appeared all this time to try to tell us something we need to know.

I did not mean to say the apparition ‘disobeyed’ the local bishop in the previous post, as it sounds (the record shows the two priests after a 10 year ‘trial’ by the Vatican were found to be ‘not guilty’ and the bishop was found ot be in error and I think he was even reprimanded for ‘illegally’ pusing for laiziation of the two priests - the apparition allegedly said something about the bishop should proceed slowly and obtain all the facts and not make a hasty judgement (advice which proved correct since the Church said the same and more against what the bishop did). 

I meant it is true one does not have to believe any private revelation.

Not every last person of the 40 million who have been to the site will believe. Sister Lucia’s mother, even after asking for and receiving a healing during the months of the Fatima apparition said that “it is strange, even though I have been healed and I believe it was through Blessed Mary’s intercession, I still do not believe that you are seeing her.”  She only believed after the Miracle of the Sun.  Many who met Jesus did not believe.  Thomas doubted.
One wonders if it means the person does not pray enough?!  I cannot answer this of course.

“Further to Diane Korzeniewski’s response to Lisa-Marie, the Vatican has intervened in the past, as in the case of the false visions at Heroldsbach in Germany, in July 1951, even though these were said to have continued until October 1952.  So there is no intrinsic reason why the visions at Medjugorje could not be condemned by the Church, even while they are alleged to be continuing. As for Pope John Paul II’s private position on Medjugorje, that is not binding on Catholics.”

Yes, the Church would quickly condemn it if falshoods were given in the messages, as you so pointedly show with the events of the Bayside false apparition. And your example of Bayside means the Church’s not condemning Medjugorje so far is proof that to date there has been no smoking gun, so to speak, to give it reason to do so. (The Vatican knows the bishop’s action against the two priests was ‘illegal’ and they overturned what he did.) The local bishop’s position on Medjugorje is not binding on Catholics - the Vatican is overseeing the Medjugorje investigation and while placing bishops from the region of former Yugoslavia on the commission, they pointedly did not put the local bishop on it. (Pope John Paul II, while a bishop, to me holds more weight than the local bishop, but it is true his position on a private revelation is not binding either.)

My good friend who had the the good intention of visiting Medjugorje thirty-three times, in 90s to 2005, was a heavy promoter of M, lately he was very silent and start promoting Our Lady of Fatima, I question him about this? he very kindly reply, when I found the truth, I will tell it as it is, what went wrong in “M”, just too many messages, just too many apparation, somedays I wish they would just stop, so as I can continue to beleive it is truly the Blessed Virgin Mary visiting us here below, but I can not carry on believing something that is not of “HEAVEN”

How many are doing what she has asked, one wonders?  I know very very few (even myself much of the time) who fast on bread and water on Wednesdays and Friday as the early Catholic Church did.  I know very very few who say a daily rosary.  I know very very few who go to monthly confession, who read Scripture daily, who attend Mass as often as possible and make it the center of their lives. I know very very few who love neighbor as themselves.  All these she has politely asked of us, over and over and over.  Could it be said that the sheer number of times we have been asked, and still do not do it, might one day condemn us? We certainly will have no excuses - we certainly have been advised what we should be doing, straight from the Mother of God if these apparitions are true.

Dear Bob Franks remember how the Pharisees laid heavy burdens on those seeking the Kingdom of God? Great fasts and penances…do this on Wednesdays do that on Fridays, bread and water etc. etc. seems to be what is demanded by the alleged apparition at Medjugorje. 
The burdens Our Lady asked Her children to bear at Fatima are much those as Her Son asked of us while He was on earth…come take up your Cross for My yoke is easy and my burden is light. Penance, yes; however not prescribed penances. Our Lady of Fatima seems to respect the free will and voluntary sacrifices of Her children more so than the source of the apparitions at Medjugorje. Medjugorje is very very troublesome to my mind.

Dear Bob Franks, it is easy to say, how many did not do this or do that, really? how do you know? how do you know we do not pray the Rosary, read the Holy Bible, fast,do penance, goes to daily Holy Mass, Adoration, Station of the Cross daily, I don’t think you have any knowledge, by looking at what you write it sound like only those who had visited M follow what those claim seer will find salvation? how wrong? I see a few of those daily in Church, what come out of those so called seer mouth is not of BV Mary, sorry Bob, for nearly thirty years, all six could not even convince a simple Bishop of the Church, Juan Diego did not find this hard at all, he only had to tell Our Lady and She did the it all. The BV Mary did not put down the Bishop, in fact She gave proof to the Bishop of Her Royal visitation from Heaven, the good friend of mine above, he gave himself over to BV Mary, not by “M” Mean, but by St. Louis de Montfort, so do not draw so fast to point at other, this group of ex-Medjugorje are now in Fatima, we only look for simple thing in a claim seer or visonary, very simple virtues: ” Chastity”,” Poverty”, “Obedience” if it is lacking changes are it is not of Heaven!!! 
From: Poor Servant of Blessed Virgin Mary.

I do not believe I accused anyone of anything. What people do is no business of mine.  I read complaints about so many messages, and wonder aloud if people are listening and putting into action anything that is asked from the alleged apparition.
“...so Sorry Bob, for nearly thirty years, all six could not even convince a simple Bishop of the Church…”  Perhaps it is not time yet for the most significant aspects of these alleged apparitions to unfold? And when the time comes (and it will come soon I am sure) for their fulfillment all will happen as God wills, for His words will not return empty.

The Didache is or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (Didach? means “Teaching”) is a brief early Christian treatise, dated by most scholars to the late first/early 2nd century. The first line of this treatise is “Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles (or Nations) by the Twelve Apostles”
As for fasting, the Didache says:

“Prayer and Fasting

Your fasting should not be like the hypocrites’. They fast on Monday and the Thursday: you should fast on the Wednesday and Friday.”

This stems from teachings of Jesus to the Twelve, who Himself said amongst other verses on fasting:
 
Then the disciples of John approached him and said, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast (much), but your disciples do not fast?”
Jesus answered them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.  (Matt 9:14-15)

Mark, when you write about things that you know about, you seem to be very wise; BUT, as you have so little knowledge about Mary and her role for our salvation, you should just PRAY! PRAY! PRAY! as she keeps telling us at (oops, I almost said it). Have no fear, if you wish to ignore her, she understands. Oh, the Church will approve her messages.

In response to Bob Franks’ point about Heroldsbach and Medjugorje, and his claim that if Medjugorje were false, it would have been condemned by now, the situation was complicated by the fact that the Medjugorje visions very quickly began to have an impact outside the diocese, and even the country, to become a world wide phenomenon. In the past such manifestations were usually contained within the diocese and so were easier to deal with.

Also, given all the controversy over Medjugorje, it made sense not to include Bishop Peric on the new Commission – there would have been complaints of bias if he had been included.

Please represent what others say accurately, in a spirit of charity.

I said “TO DATE” no smoking gun has been found by the Vatican to condemn Medjugorje; if one had been found it already would have been sanctioned. I included in this the bishop/two priests/Virgin incident and pointed out that the Vatican knew the bishop was in error on this point since the Vatican had reversed the bishop’s actions against the two priests and said he had been wrong in what he had done in that regard.

Again, please represent others’ accurately.

“...the situation was complicated by the fact that the Medjugorje visions very quickly began to have an impact outside the diocese, and even the country, to become a world wide phenomenon.”

I stand by what I said - if any falsehoods had come from the apparition (regardless of how famous the site is) the Church would have condemned it. To date it has not, meaning to date no definitive smoking gun has occurred.

In further response to Bob Franks: there are plenty of problems with Medjugorje, right from the word go, and I have extensively covered them in my book - with the fact that the visions were supposed to end on Friday 3 July 1981, and yet continue to this day, being just one of them.

You can also see plenty of evidence of problems at:
http://te-deum.blogspot.com/
http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com
http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/
www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/home.html
http://en.louisbelanger.com/

What has happened is that the Church and society have gone through a complete upheaval over the last 40 years or so which has unsettled people’s minds and caused a lot of confusion, compared to the situation prior to that. Plus the fact that a huge amount of positive propaganda in favour of Medjugorje has given a false picture of what has happened there.

But with the new Commission things should finally be sorted out.

p.s. regarding “the bishop/two priests/Virgin incident” there is some excellent info about it here:

http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/the-gospa-demonizes-the-bishop.html

Convince the Bishop of Mostar (Peric), maybe a second look is worthy of believe, sign was promise too in Galabandal, so was bayside so far,none, just like the messages given to the claim seer, talk, talk, talk and nothing more, today the Bishop remain unconvince and still reject it. why were site the Fatima, Loudes and Guadalupe so easy to accept? they said Our Blessed Mother said this and it was done, Roses in mid-winter, wet clothing of pligrim became dry (true miracle of the sun), miracle spring flow out of nothing, just a simple proof of Her Royal visitation, She knows we here below are a bunch of simple people.                                                in “M” this is lacking, lacking of proof, not medical, not miracle, not miracle healing,it is the pre-announce proof of evident of Her Royal Visitation, one thing Medjugorje never did is pre-announce proof of Evident to convince the Bishop and his people, The Holy Bible is full of such pre-announce, coming of Chirst, Crucifixion of Christ, Resurrection of Christ, Coming of Holy Spirit, many simple thing, for simple people to believe, such as Tilma of Juan Diego, wet ground become complete dry within minutes after the Miracle of the Sun, Spring pour out of Ground, for evident… so far nothing except messages after messages after messages and many so call secret that nobody knows, it had become a kind of I told you so, but, but, told me what? I wish to give you a pre-announce sign! and then silence for thirty years, you see this how the seer works, they took bits and pieces of pray, fast, come to my son, do this and do that…etc etc.. but never a pre-announce proof, the claim seer said a sign would appear and I was a young man then and now I am growing old and still waiting and I knows it is a hoax now, after studying other true apparation and compared to this, I became aware of false apparation and false seer, many would claim to see Jesus and Mary but only a very,very,very few truly have and the seer in M is not the one!!!!

Donal, I stand with you on this, where the Bishop stand so shall I be, for it is never a sin to denial a claim apparation, even to a point of charitable condemnation, which it will never be a sin, but disobedence is a sin, especially against the Bishop of local authority, a pastor of a parish, where a decreed of a Bishop is the local authority, the undenaiable truth, in view of M, it is an undeniable truth of disobedience. A person or a group of people can privately goes to a place and claim all they want, insofar not to claim those messages are for the world, I will have nothing to complaint or be concern or condemn, once they claim that those messages are for the Catholic Church and that will includ me, who is a Catholic than I will for sure stand with a Bishop for this fight to defend his good name and which he in fact a good Bishop, what is not of local is just an opinion, local authority come first and itself a sin to be disobedence to the local Churchmen, could you foreseen the picture of St.Peter running off to St.Paul follower and told them that whatever St.Paul says, they can just disregard, for I am St.Peter the Pope, never happen and never will, not in the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ, only in other cult likes group can this disobedience ever happen!

“posted by Donal FOley:
p.s. regarding “the bishop/two priests/Virgin incident” there is some excellent info about it here:...”

The btter, more up to date and objective report of how the bishop was overruled and shown to be in error by the Vatican (not the alleged apparition) in the incident with the two priests is here:
http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1374&Itemid=214

Let’s stick with the facts in the case, please.

In further response to Donal FOley, about his view of problems with Medjugorje: It is up to the Vatican commission to decide. 

Any person writing a book on the alleged apparitions needs to present an accurate presentation, or else they might be fighting the will of God should the Vatican rule in favor of the alleged apparition.  I read that your book is not accurate at all. I hope if there are grievous errors, that it was not done with malice, or intentionally, but was due to honest mistakes on your part.

The visiosn ending in June 1981 - visionaries often misspeak.

It is a fact that Sr. Lucia said that Our Lady told her, on October 13, 1917, that “the war [WWI] will end today.” It ended in November 1918.  Sr. Lucia made a mistake (actually quite a big one that for years caused many to doubt the authenticity of the apparition , and possibly delayed its being approved too) and that happens with visionaries from time to time.  The Church, not the visionaries, determine what is what with any apparition, and the Church will decide this apparition too.

p.s. regarding “the bishop/two priests/Virgin incident” there is some excellent info about it here:...”

The better, more up to date and objective report of how the bishop was overruled and shown to be in error by the Vatican (not the alleged apparition) in the incident with the two priests is here:

http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1374&Itemid=214

Let’s stick with the facts in the case, please.

Ryan my pal you are back again, M still has no pre-announce miracle to show for, thirty years, 30,000 messages and the apparation goes on and on, miracle of the Sun in Fatima, the pligrim clothing dry within a little while, show that it was truly a miracle that define the law of nature and only God can do that, no body can. [ I write not for you alone ryan, because we went through all this a year ago, but for all the reader] today M is still draw a blank, for a proof of pre-announce miracle, the so called claim seer in not seeing the Blessed Virgin Mary after all, salvation of the souls is of Christ alone and always will be, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ is of perfect obedience, Mother of God, To God the Father, anything of God is of perfect Obedience and anything is of disobedience is not of God…. so I see the value ministry are calling their big gun out, somehow Rome decided to terminate connection flight to Medjugorje, that must really hurt the seer, business must be down, oh in my Church they could hardly find people to go this May, no new business, only the die hard visionary fan club are going, I was offer to go, but no thanks, I have Jesus daily in the Holy Mass, don’t need to go see someone pretend to see BV Mary

Thanks Mark for your beautiful work on this blog and Donal, understanding medjugorje was finely written, full of research and I finish your book within a few days and pass around, please folks look toward Fatima, that where Our Blessed Holy Mother want Her Children to be, just look at those little visionary of Fatima, the true mouth piece of God, all are in Heaven now, they have done their job, truly suffer as they accept the offering for souls, pray to little Blessed Jacinta and Franseco for help in wisdom and understanding of a true apparation, don’t be led into believing into someone else illusion, Medjugorje had fail to shut up Our Lady of Fatima, they fail because of lacking of pre-announce event which is so crucial in a true apparation, they can claim all they want, without the pre-announce event they cannot convince the local Bishop thus his people thus the world, pray the Rosary daily, Holy Mass when ever you can and try not to miss the First Saturday devotion in reparation to Her Holy Immaculate Heart, and that was Her simple message for us, She is the Sit of Divine Wisdom, She know how simple we are, She do not need to visit 30,000 times and poor simple soul like me know that, I am off for now until then, be back until 28th March and hope Mark will come with another unmasking Medjugorje blog, not anti, anti is when you goes against something real, unmasking is telling the truth and you proof them wrong.

Regarding “Bob Franks’s” remarks about the “the bishop/two priests/Virgin incident” there is further info about disinformation on this point at:
http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/2008/04/fr-rene-laurentin-disinformations-by.html

I also note his hostile and aggressive tone – perhaps this is why Mark Shea felt obliged to issue this appeal at the top of this blog:

“Do not, I implore you, turn the comboxes into yet another occasion to advocate for the extremely dubious claims of Medjugorje.”

Rather than saying: “I read that your book is not accurate at all,” shouldn’t you actually go to the trouble of reading it yourself before publicly criticizing it?

You also say: “The visiosn ending in June 1981 - visionaries often misspeak,” and then go on to claim that this is paralleled by the incident with Sr Lucia saying World War I would end on 13 October 1917. But the two cases are completely different. Lucia was exhausted after hours of continual questioning which went on late into the night, whereas the Medjugorje visionaries were responding in a calm and considered way – so their statements about the visions ending in “three more days” must be taken at face value.

And apart from that, the last time I heard references to somebody “misspeaking” it was in connection with Hilary Clinton’s claims about landing in Bosnia under sniper fire …

Thanks to Poor Servant for fighting the good fight and for his instructive comments.

I don’t think Mark’s statement at the top meant only M doubters get to have a say. If you re-stated Mark’s ‘rule’, and then followed it by not attacking M believers in the next breath, you would be more credible.

So you agree that Lucia reported something from Our Lady that was not correct, yet then you try to rationalize it away, but don’t extend the same courtesy to the M visionaries?  Biased, to say the least.

That said, both Lucia and the M visionaries were/have been subjected to repeated questions and both can be said to be have been exhausted and overwhelmed. This is not a substantial refutation of the fact that visionaries say things that are not quite correct. These statements of theirs have no bearing on the authenticity of an apparition, or else we would have to wonder why the Church approved Fatima.

I have no intention to read your book. This incident of bias towards Lucia’s mistake is enough for me.

Also, I don’t need to read such a book. I have prayed the family rosary, and the rosary alone, and can say I have been given enough grace from prayer to know why Our Lady is appearing. All should listen and act on the messages, while there is still time to do so.

God bless you.

In context, the visionaries, unlike Lucia, were only interviewed once that evening in a calm atmosphere, so their experience can’t be equated with Lucia’s.  Under extreme pressure she made a mistake and corrected herself, but the visionaries quite clearly spoke of “3 more days” while under no pressure.

In addition, even Randall Sullivan in his very pro-Medjugojre book, The Miracle Detective definitely states that the visions were supposed to end on 3 July, and he even quotes Vicka as saying on that occasion: “This evening the Madonna gave messages for us, and not for the world, … She appeared for the last time this evening.” (p. 107)

However, despite this, bizarrely he accepts the visionaries’ later accounts of further visions, which just goes to show the effect Medjugojre has on some people ...

And Lucia, when asked, “What did Our Lady say?” said:

“Our Lady said the war is going to end today.”

She only changed it after Jacinta talked to her about it (and after the war obviously did not end) But is a part of the record. The M visionaries also changed what they said, and only after the visions continued.  The two events are more similar than dissimilar. Why anyone cannot see that, I do not profess to know, except to think it is some kind of bias and a ‘grasping at straws’ syndrome. To use either of these mistakes by apparition visionaries as some sort of proof for the validity of an apparition is obviously not correct, and it is not in line with the Churches approach to apparitions.  The Church knows visionaries sometimes misinterpret what they hear from the apparition.

The bigger issue is the bishops and the two priests - the up to date and objective report of how the bishop was overruled and shown to be in error by the Vatican (not the alleged apparition) in the incident with the two priests is below.  All should read it.

http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1374&Itemid=214

For details of Lucia’s ‘mistake’ about ‘the war ending today’, see:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm and search for the phrase “end today” .

This mistake was very troubling, as we read:

Doctor Formigao returned to his seminary at Santarem. His journey had been fruitful and his faith was high. He had himself observed phenomena as clearly miraculous, to his sober judgment. For the weary and charming little girls and boy, who had championed their Lady with brave love through their months of trial, he felt nothing but fatherly affection. There was only one unhappy collision between their testimony and apparent truth: both Lucia and Jacinta had quoted the Blessed Virgin as having said, on October 13, “The war will end today.”

The war had not ended that day, and the Mother of all truth, as any Catholic theologian must believe the Virgin to be, is not capable of falsehood. Obviously then either the children had offended truth or were innocently mistaken in this very crucial item of their testimony. As a responsible priest, Dr. Formigao was unable to shrug the discrepancy away. It gave him no rest, and consequently, six days later, on the 19th of the month, he returned to Aljustrel. He arrived in the afternoon and paused for a while on that part of the road that faced the site of the apparitions.

Even in 1924, seven years later, we read:

“Seven years later, during the official inquiry conducted in July of 1924, in the peaceful surroundings of the convent at Vilar, Lucia attempted to look back at this obstinate contradiction:

I think Our Lady said this: “People must be converted. The war will end today and the soldiers can be expected soon.”

But afterwards, at home, Jacinta said that Our Lady had put it this way. “People must be converted. The war will end within a year.” I was myself so preoccupied with all the petitions that people had asked me to place before Our Lady that I could not give all my attention to her words.

It should be noted that neither at the age of ten nor at seventeen did Lucia respond in the manner calculated to be “popular”; the evidence accrues that she was being truthful to the best of her ability and, almost certainly, mistaken.”

She did not immediately correct herself, as some other poster here said.

But who is to say that WW I did not effectively end that day of 13 October 1917 in any event? Must we really hold that 11 November was the date the war ended or might it not have been over for all intents and purposes earlier? God’s history does not conform to man’s. WW II did not begin officially until the pontificate of Pius XII though the great aurora presaging its outbreak was predicted and occurred during the pontificate of Pius XI in January 1939. Straining for gnats and missing camels, I think.

Dr. Formigao continues with his questioning of Lucia and his questioning demonstrates that the war did not end - that there were battles (even significant battles, history shows) after that day:

He began with Lucia: “On the 13th of this month Our Lady said that the war would finish on that same day? What were the words she used?

“She said: ‘The war will end today. You can expect the soldiers very shortly.’ “

“But listen, Lucia, the war is still going on. The papers give news of battles after the 13th. How can you explain that if Our Lady said the war would end that day?”

“I don’t know; I only know that I heard her say that the war would end on that day.”

“Some people declare that they heard you say that Our Lady had said that the war would end shortly. Is that true?”

“I said exactly what Our Lady had said.”

Lucia made a big mistake, plain and simple.

There were some 19 battles after October 13, 1917, and there were significant casualty figures.

One such battle’s casualties:
Second Battle of the Marne opened July 15, 1918: Casualties were high, more so among the German forces that the Allies.  France suffered 95,000 casualties, Germany 168,000, with Britain incurring 13,000 losses and the U.S. 12,000.

The war did not end on October 13, 1917, virtually or in reality.

The pope in union with the bishops teaching on faith and morals is infallible.

Even though visionaries such as Lucia of Fatima or the M alleged visionaries claim to see and hear the Mother of God, they are not infallible, and they can make mistakes in reporting what the apparition says.

The Church in her wisdom knows this, and takes this into account when evaluating apparitions.

God bless you.

Continuing our comparison to Fatima, it is said that at least two of the Medj visionaries were on the hill the first day because they wanted to listen to rock music and smoke cigarettes.

Lucia of Fatima, in her memoirs, notes that the three of them had said the rosary as their parents had commanded just before Our Lady arrived, but had truncated it, as they often did, before the apparition occurred. They only said the names of the prayers instead of the whole prayers.  In other words, they said, “Our Father.  Hail Mary. Hail Mary…repeating “Hail Mary” ten times…then “Glory Be. Our Father. Hail Mary.” 

This way, when asked if they SAID their prayers, they could say yes and feel they weren’t lying.  But the fact remains the Fatima visionaries had disobeyed their parents and were intentionally not praying properly.

In both apparitions, we see that kids will be kids! Again, such minor childishness from children (not full adults) is to be expected and has no bearing on the validity of an apparition.  All six of the Medj visionaries reported they said the family rosary every day in their homes.

God willed the Son to approach Peter.  Peter said, “Depart from me Lord, for I am but a sinful man.”  Jesus stayed with Peter.  If Jesus and Mary only approached the sinless, they would have spent their time together in their house, with nobody else.

All have sinned (except Jesus and Mary as taught by Catholicism) - to believe the children that Mary approached at Fatima, and allegedly at Medj, would be perfect, without sin, goes against the Scriptures and against Catholic teaching.

Regarding the “end of the war,” I have already explained situation regarding Bob Franks’s point. He says now that Lucia “only changed it after Jacinta talked to her about it,” but as I pointed out, yes, she made a mistake, but she was only ten, had been questioned for hours and was exhausted.

He also says: “The Church knows visionaries sometimes misinterpret what they hear from the apparition.” This is true, but applies to them explaining later on what they saw – not to clear statements made at the time, when they were not under the sort of pressure Lucia was under.

Regarding the “bishops and the two priests” incident, that is side-issue in comparison to the “3 more days” statements.

Regarding the quotes from Fr de Marchi’s book, what Bob Franks fails to do is put them into context. Here are some other quotes which do that:

“At seven o’clock, on the evening of October 13, Dr. Formigao continued his methodical questioning of the children. He had no desire to punish them in their weariness, because if the day had substantiated their claims and exalted them in joy, it had also wilted them with its many emotional trials. Zealous strangers and frantic friends had been at them since the hour of rising. They were sleepy and tired, bewildered and strained, and it seemed to the wise priest almost as cruel to press them further, as it was essential to question them now while their impressions were still fresh.”

And a little further on:

“…viewing the general scene in the Marto household, Dr. Formigao suffered a shock. His little friends had reached an advanced state of physical and mental exhaustion. Badgered and haunted for days by droves of thoughtlessly curious people, they were no longer equal to the serious accommodation of pertinent questions. Lucia was especially exhausted by her ordeal (Dr. Formigao had written). She was completely worn out. Her fatigue was such that she could not respond with care and attention to the detail required. Her answers were almost mechanical at times, and she was frequently unable to recall incidents of the apparitions, which had certainly never been the case before. I felt that if the children were not spared the pain and fatigue of these endless inquiries, that their health would be seriously undermined.”

Obviously any reasonable person will accept that a mistake is understandable under such conditions.

Regarding Bob Franks’s point about the later enquiry at Vilar, I can’ see what he’s getting at. Lucia, under tremendous pressure, made a mistake and admitted it – what is the problem with that? But as I have already pointed out, this is completely different from the situation with the Medjugorje Visionaries and the “3 more days” statements.

At the very end of the Fourth Memoir, Sr Lucia says:

“It was possibly because I was so anxious to remember the innumerable graces that I had to ask of Our Lady, that I was mistaken when I understood that the war would end on that very 13th.” (Fatima in Lucia’s own words, I, 2000, p. 175)

Regarding his other points about the “smoking visionaries” and comparing this with the Fatima children only praying a shortened rosary before the apparitions, again, this is a totally invalid comparison. Not only were the Medjugorje visionaries smoking and listening to rock music, but there were rumors that they were smoking drugs. The two situations just cannot be compared in seriousness.

Unfortunately, what Bob Franks’s arguments show is that extreme Medjugorje supporters will go to any lengths to support “their” apparition – even if it means denigrating Fatima, even though it has received so much support from the Church over the years, and particularly very strong papal support.

Sadly the remarks from Bob Franks show that he is so bound up with the Medjugorje “cult” that he is not capable of seeing this, and it also rather sad to see the negative and personal tone of Steve’s remarks – is that another fruit of Medjugorje?

Even in 1924, seven years later, we read Lucia still saying the Lady said the war would end. And yes, she did get tired later, but Mr. Foley now is doing the same - he is only taking the part about her being tired six days later, when Dr. Formigao returned after six days of the apparition of the 13th of October because he could not rest because Lucia had said (when not yet exhausted) ‘the Lady said the war will end today’ and it had not ended.

Seven years later she herself attributed it not to exhaustion but thought she might have heard that the ‘war will end today’ (she still said she heard that) because she was focused on the petitions she was to ask of Our Lady:

“Seven years later, during the official inquiry conducted in July of 1924, in the peaceful surroundings of the convent at Vilar, Lucia attempted to look back at this obstinate contradiction:

I think Our Lady said this: “People must be converted. The war will end today and the soldiers can be expected soon.”

But afterwards, at home, Jacinta said that Our Lady had put it this way. “People must be converted. The war will end within a year.” I was myself so preoccupied with all the petitions that people had asked me to place before Our Lady that I could not give all my attention to her words.

It should be noted that neither at the age of ten nor at seventeen did Lucia respond in the manner calculated to be “popular”; the evidence accrues that she was being truthful to the best of her ability and, almost certainly, mistaken.”

She did not “immediately correct herself” on October 13 1917, and even seven years later in peaceful surroundings, she tried to explain why she heard Our Lady say “the war will end today.”  As Dr. Formigao says, “..the evidence accrues that she was being truthful to the best of her ability and, almost certainly, mistaken.”

Well, one only has to paraphrase Mr. Foley’s own words but in the other direction, which I do below this next most important point that has not been addressed.

The Vatican overruled the bishop and said he acted wrongly and even illegally with regards to the two priests, which confirms that what the alleged apparition said about the incident was correct.  This is the most serious issue here since this one incident alone has been viewed by many as ‘the apparition showed disobedience to a bishop, so it must not be authentic.’  But in actuality, what the alleged apparition had to say on the issue was confirmed by the Vatican over the course of a ten year investigation/court as being the truth of the matter at hand.

Now Mr. Foley’s paraphrased own words, but in the other direction:
Unfortunately, what Donal Foley’s arguments show is that extreme Medjugorje doubters will go to any lengths to denigrate the apparition – even if it means hiding the true nature of fallible visionaries in all apparitions including Fatima, which has received so much support from the Church over the years, and particularly very strong papal support.

Sadly the remarks from Donal Foley show that he is so bound up with the Medjugorje doubters “cult” that he is not capable of seeing this.

I await any word on the bishop being overruled by the Vatican.

(I wont comment on ‘rumors of doing drugs’ - spreading unconfirmed rumors of this nature about a ‘neighbor’ is a grave sin very very offensive to Our Lord, called calumny.)

And I think all that can be said on this has been said - I await the results of the Vatican commission on Medjugorje. I will take and trust the Church’s word over any author, and whatever the Catholic Church says on Akita I take over that of any author, too, as I am sure and hope and pray all Catholics do.

God bless you.

According to Mary Craig, rumors that at least some of the girls were smoking drugs were circulating in the village within the first few days; she reports that Fr Cuvalo said to Fr Zovko on his return: “One of the girls, Mirjana Dragicevic, comes from a grammar school in Sarajevo and they’re saying she brought drugs with her, maybe in cigarettes. She’s started giving drugs to the children, and now they’re claiming to see visions.”

On the afternoon of Saturday 27 June the visionaries had been taken to a nearby town, Citluk, for medical tests. Fr Cuvalo, though, expressed his displeasure that no blood or urine tests for drugs had been taken: “Look, we’ve heard that the girl from Sarajevo brought in drugs. And another thing, they say that one of the children is an epileptic and a hysteric.” (Spark from Heaven, pp. 58, 60.)

The whole article…Word.

Donal: “As for Pope John Paul II’s private position on Medjugorje, that is not binding on Catholics.”—I always hear Medjugorje supporters say how Pope John Paul II said he would go there if he weren’t the pope, but I heard from others that they’re completely untrue and he never said such a thing. I certainly hope so, but can you confirm this?

Wow, this has acted like a dry sponge drawing ever nutter.

Mark,

The Church has not said that Medjugorje is not real. It is still under investigation 30 years later.  You claim to follow the Church on private revelation, so I think we should all follow the Church on this until it states otherwise.  To say that you think it is not real is your opinion Mark, and not that of the Church.

Also, where in the 3rd secret of Fatima does it say the Pope will be shot and killed?  The theological reading of the secret is much different.

April - it’s not certain if John Paul II did say that in a private capacity or not, but certainly he didn’t say it publicly, which is what counts.

Thanks, Donal. I thought I read a quote somewhere where Bishop Peric or someone said that Pope Benedict, Ratzinger at the time, said something to the effect of “any statements attributed to the pope or myself regarding Medjugorje” are untrue. Something like that. But this was some years ago. I did read it in a few places, as I recall, but can’t remember where.

I personally don’t believe he said it and that it’s been bandied about so many times by supporters and whispered down the lane to the point where it’s become some tacit approval in their eyes.

Thanks to you and Diane and others for always trying to get the truth out there. I was one who’d gone years believing this was approved along with Garabandal. I wish my family had known this years ago. I lost an uncle I’d been caring for who traveled there for healing. He didn’t make it and died en route. Sometimes I wish I’d been armed with this knowledge then. We might have had more time with him.

And to those who think Medjugorje’s widespread popularity is an indicator of genuineness, remember that the internet’s here now. Had it been around in the 50’s, no doubt the seers of Garabandal could have enjoyed the celebrity of a career as professional visionaries.

“You claim to follow the Church on private revelation, so I think we should all follow the Church on this until it states otherwise.”

And two Bishops, for years, have said not to publicize the messages coming from Medjugorje. Yet they’ve both been ignored. Those of us exercising caution and not following something that has not been approved are not the ones being disobedient, in my opinion.

For my part, I think it cannot be approved as the early (not as publicized) messages directly contradict the idea that life begins and that a child has a soul at conception. When I read that, all ideas of validity crumbled for me and the rest followed.

April - Yes, Pope Benedict is supposed to have made remarks along those lines some years ago - he probably got fed up with people making up things about him and Medjugorje!
Garabandal is a problem area too - in fact most of these modern alleged visions are - they are distracting people from the genuine message of Fatima.

JP:

Of *course* it’s my opinion.  Where did I say otherwise?  It’s also my opinion, which will be borne out in the course of time, that a) the Church will *never* approve Medjugorje as a valid apparition and will likely condemn it as false and b) that Medjugorje zealots will ignore the Church’s findings and continue to promote it.  Again, that’s just my opinion.  But I will be vindicated by events.  Just you wait.

Re: Fatima.  From the text of the Third Secret: “the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him”

Hi, Mark,

Maybe you should speak to Archbishop John Francis Donoghue before you declare Conyers to be bogus.  As far as I know only Archbishop Donoghue, the Ordinary in the Archdiocese of Atlanta at the time of these apparitions, has the authority to make such a declaration and that is something he never did.

Thank you Mark for a great post. You said something courageously that needed to be expressed. Thanks also to Diane and Donal for the excellent documentation they have put together and the links for it.
I find it difficult to understand how pro Ms either won’t read these facts or deny them. M fails every aspect of Church criteria for establishing authenticity. One area that is never hightlighted however is a diminishment of Mary in her perfect state of virtue. Many of the statements show her as having common imperfections: getting in between squabbles; criticizing a bishop by name and telling children he needs to shape up;fostering and/or approving of disobedience; threatening and challenging the authority and decisions of her Son’s bishops and Franciscan superiors. The lists of these human imperfections and faults are everywhere in the actions announced by the children. As Mark stated, the Bishop with the Office of authority has spoken long ago. And the decision was and still is negative. And hundreds of good souls are be distracted from the critical Fatima message because of it.

Wait a, wait a, wait a second here. JP2 did NOT perform the consecration of Russia. He knew he was supposed to do it and he simply did not do it. Rather, he did some lame consecration of the world. He and his predecessors also did NOT reveal the 3rd secret in it’s entirety to the people which is what they were SUPPOSED to do as per our Lady’s instructions. There is NO avoiding the chastisement now. Perhaps maybe if Pope Benedict performed the consecration, but this would be impossible because all the bishops of the world have to do it the same way at the same time. With all these apostate bishops, this WON’T happen. Truly sad indeed. Pray the rosary, every day, several times a day to obtain peace for your family.

Yes. He did.  Sr. Lucia said he did what our Lady asked.  If it’s a choice between some guy with a keyboard’s dimestore analysis and Sr. Lucia, I’ll go with the visionary.  Read Fatima for Today by Fr. Andrew Apostoli and drop the dumb conspiracy theorizing.

I agree with what Marie Teresa says about the apparent imperfections of the “Gospa” which aren’t found in the person of the genuine Blessed Virgin.

Regarding Peterman’s remarks, according to the bishop of Leiria-Fatima at the time of the consecration, in 1984, Alberto Cosme do Amaral, John Paul II paused during the ceremony, and quietly included Russia in the consecration. This action is understandable, given the delicate political situation, and, it has been argued, with the understanding that God was leaving the Pope, as head of the Church on earth, to decide the precise form the act should take.

Regarding the third part of the secret, Pope Benedict, as Cardinal Ratzinger, in his theological commentary on it said that: “for the first time, it is being published in its entirety.”

I can’t see that he would lie about that, since apart from it being a serious sin, the truth would be bound to come out sooner or later.

Also, as Mark says, Sr Lucia confirmed that the consecration had been done and that heaven had accepted it.

NO..he did not and NO Sr Lucia never said any such thing. She tried to speak over the years but was muzzled by the Vatican. The consecration was NOT made. At no time did all the bishops of the world on one day have a simultaneous consecration of Russia, it NEVER happened. The chastisement cannot be avoided now and all the JP2 fans out there blowing this smoke need to stop fiddling because Rome is burning. The JP2 fans out there simply need to tell me what the man actually DID that made him a saint. This is not the specific topic of this blog but I can do through dozens of things he did wrong starting with NOT consecrating Russia. Many souls will be lost due to his inaction.

And actually Mark, I’d love to take credit for the “keyboard dimestore analysis” but it’s not mine but rather Father Malachi Martin’s “dimestore analysis”. I’ll take the word of a vatican insider, learned Jesuit scholar over a dimestore blogger’s opinion and Fr Apostoli’s any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Go to youtube and listen to somme of Father Malachi Martin’s discussions on Fatima. He actually READ the secret, knew the popes and knew what was going on with the situation.

Hey.  If one of Art Bell’s favorite guests says it, it must be true.  Always wise to trust everybody’s favorite Catholic conspiracy mongerer over two Popes and Sr. Lucia.  What could possibly go wrong?

Yeah, you’re right, we should definitely only trust those EWTN priests..what could go wrong? Oops.

It turns out that in the real world outside the Rad Trad Paranoid Conspiracy Bubble, Pope Benedict is not an EWTN priest, but the Pope of the Catholic Church.  Enjoy life in the Bubble.

Just asking, in 1984, wasn’t it the “Soviet Union” not Russia?  Does that make a difference if it was?  Just asking.

30 years and going, this coming up anniversary of so called claim seer to have seen the BV Mary and have received thousands and thousands of messages from heaven, without end insight and yet if one do not believe in this so called claim apparation, one would be branded as a doubter “cult”? Certain a strange word to used on a person who choose not to believe in Medjugorje, it would be rather rightly to branded the believer of six so called claim seer as ” Cult” for they and their follower could not even convince their Local Bishop of their apparation, why? for the simple fact that for 30 so years the claim seer CAN NEVER PRE-ANNOUNCE an event to provide proof of their apparation, to me until the day they can show up and tell their bishop that a certian event is going to happen and is of God and on that very day it happen and it’s approved by their bishop of local authority, they should rightly brand themselve as “cult member of M” for other that do not believe, it is not a sin and never shall be a sin, if one is to believe in a false apparation and believe and follow it’s false seer it is consider a sin against the Catholic Church and be rightly called a “cult”, much worst a person that disobey the local bishop fall into the sin of disobedence, to twist the faith of the Catholic Church and called other doubted “cult” is a serious matter and may have to answer to the Divine Justice of God, for as St.John of the Cross said you needn’t have to believe in private apparation to have salvation, yet he also said that the first sign of false apparation is of “DISOBEDIENCE”

Mark, you’re a stubborn Irish Catholic as am I so I know nobody will win this debate. I do appreciate your allowing the open debate without edit or deletion. Not many will allow that today and in fact I prefer deletion rather than editing such as the Cal Catholic does. If you’re ever in Tampa we’ll get together and I’ll buy you a beer and we can discuss our Catholic worldview.

After 5 weeks with the National Pilgrim Virgin Statue in San Bernardino Diocese, CA we now have over 25,000 US Catholics doing the first and most important thing Our Lady of Fatima requested: praying daily and offering daily sacrifices in reparation for sin and for the conversion of sinners. Our Lady promised peace for any nation that accomplished this in sufficient numbers.

At Our Lady of Fatima requested constant prayer for the conversion of sinners, daily reparation for sin and for the conversion of sinners, the daily Rosary, personal devotion to Her Immaculate Heart and the Five First Saturdays of Reparation for sins against Her Immaculate Heart. Sister Lucia and Bishop Venancio of Fatima said Her most important request was for reparation to save sinners from going to hell. This message was officially approved by the Bishop of Fatima and by the Pope, and Pope Benedict established the World Apostolate of Fatima to spread this message officially in the name of the Church.

What exactly is the message of Medjugorje? What is it to accomplish?

Odds ‘n ends…Yes, I think Donal Foley’s book on Medjugorje brings up important points that need to be acknowledged about the apparitions. It is well-documented, and I certainly didn’t get any impression of bias on his part. Akita is not as yet officially sanctioned as authentic, simply because much of what the Virgin allegedly said there about a coming worldwide chastisement seems to have been lifted verbatim from an article that appeared in the publication News Europa back in the early 60s. It purportedly involved the ‘authentic’ secret of Fatima. We know now that it was not. Fr. Pacwa is entitled to his own opinion about the Consecration of 1984. Apparently, Sr. Lucia believes it was accomplished by Blessed John Paul II which is why the Soviet Union dissolved without much bloodshed, if any at all…a miracle in itself. Regarding Garabandal, the diocese of Santander is still collecting information on matters and sends it to Rome periodically. The Garabandal Church has its own website now, the apparitions are discussed, and the village recnetly celebrated a 50th Anniversary of the apparitions, apparently with the blessing of the bishop. However, both Rome and the diocese are still satisfied with the conclusions of the original Commission. Santander still refuses to condemn the events and even states that there is nothing in the Messages to warrant such a condemnation. The Messages basically reiterate what the Church has always taught regarding Marian devotion, the Rosary, Sacraments, and Eucharist. Again, readers may want to go to the website www.stjosephpublication.com to see for themselves the photos and actual movies taken of the events at the time.

To Mark Shea:

I was under the impression that the final decision is with the Pope, who made you an authority on the subject? I was to Medjugorje and call your rude comments about it to be totally disrespectful and ignorant. If youi have not experienced being there you have no right to make the final decision and poison people’s minds against it. I and millions of others know that it is real. Look at the “fruit”, hundreds, if not thousands of vocations, many lives changed in so many ways, many conversions of heart and faith.  Do not be arrogant and think that your opinion reigns. It surely does not.

The more one has arguments the less you should listen to them even if they are convincing. Go to the Chapel or wherever the Tabernacle is and speak to Jesus and think with your heart. I hear so many dumb thinking reasons for this or that it is mind numbing. Medjugorje is real and Who once was Mary was being deleted from the first. Mary wants us to think and pray and we will get the right answer. Don’t listen to experts. Listen to your heart in the presence of Jesus and it still may take effort but no pains no gains. Pope John Paul said Medjugorje is an extension of Fatima not a detriment. Listen to him. What a great person and how more than fortunate to have him for so many years. Saying Medjugorje is taking away from Fatima is like the Protestant view that Mary takes away from Jesus. Boy are they way off base.
Thank God for allowing Mary to appear so many times in the last 200 years. Who once was Mary means her role has changed. Read the book published by Queenship and forget the experts. They “AIN’T” experts. 
peace and joy,
Mike Shannon

Mike, I was totally unaware that Pope John Paul II approved the message of Medjugorje. Please tell us exactly when Pope John Paul said Medjugorje is an extension of Fatima. The Message of Fatima calls everyone to prayer and sacrifices of reparation for sinners so they will be converted, and promises peace on any nation that will do this. I don’t see Medjugorje exending this, but I haven’t been able to read all the messages of Medjugorje.

It has been the practice of the Church not to approve the messages of a private revelation until they end, so it surprises me that Pope John Paul departed from this prudent practice.

Holiness and the conversion of sinners at a Marian shrine does not prove Our Lady appeared there. It happens all the time at our Blue Army Shrine of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Washington, NJ, where Our Lady never appeared. We even had a credible report of a miracle of the sun several years ago.

Bill Sockey