Are you kidding me? Really??!?!?!??

Yes, you’ve got to be kidding.
The ugly rallying cry of the racist is “go back to where you came from.”
That is exactly what Thomas stated when she she claimed that Israel get out out of Palestine. And in this case she specifically named two countries- Germany and Poland- countries where Jews and she means Jews should go. Countries where they were hunted down and exterminated because they were not deemed fit not only to live in their homes but anywhere else in the world.What does qualify as antisemitism? Does one have to be advocating taking Jews off to the ovens? Not antisemetic you say. Give your head a shake. Now shake it again ...HARD.

Yeah every one is antismite, whom ever do nto agree with Israels brutial policy or critisize Israel is labeled, Jews are over board over jelous oveer peronoid over over over over

no one is buying this sh**t anymore

This is anti-Semitism, pure and simple- damn Jews…go back where we came from.But where did we come from? To negate- to not even acknowledge- our historical ties to our land is an easy way for an anti-Semite to believe that we are the occupiers. It reeks of total anti-Israel/anti-Jewish/anti-Semitism- it’s all intertwined. Anti-Israel is the newest for of anti-Semitism rearing its ugly head.
By the way, Helen is Lebanese- Lebanon and Israel have a complicated and tumultuous relationship at best- which, unless she is able to forgive and be forgiven, makes her incredibly biased. To not see her for what she is is to somehow give a “pass” to a despicable,illogical and untrue statement.

The Jews going back to where they came from? That would be Israel.

Exactly! And what she is advocating amounts to ethnic cleansing. Where is the outrage?

Your rationalization and parsing of words is pretty pathetic.

Dictionary.com’s definition of an antismite is, “a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.” 

Helen Thomas said, “tell them [speaking of the Jews] to get the hell out of Palestine….”  Her words and the tone of her comment were clearly infused with hatred and predudice.  You rationalize that by describing her life history.  And while that may explain her dislike of Jews, it shouldn’t condone it.  She is generalizing about an entire group of people (“them”) and saying they should go home to Germany and Poland ....

The sad and tragic irony of all this, is that the Germans made the exact opposite argument when they gassed 6 million Jews.  They said they were trespassers and traitors.  Not real Germans.  Etc.  That’s one of the reason’s the new state of Israel was created. 

Helen Thomas truly is the “wicked witch of the East” as Bill O’Reilly described her.  Her old age and dementia has let her reveal her true colors.  I’m sorry to see you defend her in such a simplistic and illogical fashion.  What’s your motivation?

One more thing.  It’s not just her tone and clear animosity towards Jews in the clip. 

Her comment that “they should go home” is basically akin to ethnic cleansing.  She’s saying that the Jews should leave Israel (a country that’s been the homeland to the Jewish people, including Jesus, and for thousands of years before Jesus’s birth).  Why should they leave?  I could see her making the argument that the Israelis could be more tolerant and inclusive of arabs (although I would argue that Israel is amongst the most tolerant and inclusive, most democratic of countries in the middle east.  Heck there are several Israeli arab members of the knesset.  In contrast, Egypt (just one example) doesn’t even have a democratically elected government and the Egyptian supreme court just banned Egyptian citizens from marrying Israelis (they’d revoke their citizenship).  I could Helen making the argument for more openness and sharing of holy sites, although actually the Israelis afford great respect to many faiths and allow others non-Jewish faiths to worship at the many historic sites in Israel (not so for the Jordanian’s when they controlled East Jerusalem and didn’t let Jews pray at the Western Wall). 

But to rant that “they should get the hell out of Palestine.”  It starts with supporting and rationlizing this kind of vitriol as you have.  The next step is, “well if they don’t leave, we’ll have to force them to leave.”  And then, “heck why force them to leave.  It’s easier and more efficient to just gas them here.  Less bothersome.”  It’s probably why she supports the Hamas terrorists and those who try to smuggle weapons into Gaza.  That way they can force those pesky Jews to “go home.”  Force them by sending suicide bombers to blow up cafes, buses and beaches.  Lovely.  Oh, but she’s not an anti-semite, right?

You do realize Helen Thomas IS a Semite with Arabic background right? How does that make her an Anti-Semite. Also, she never used the word “Jew” in her diatribe. I know tat after watching the various videos that she was referring to Palestine and NOT Israel. Two different things.

The real question should be: Are Americans fixated on a misnomer that the whole world has gotten over? why are you people so enslaved and awe-stricken by this linguistically incorrect term.

I expected better from a catholic blog, even if an american one.

She is a blatant anti-semite with no respect for the Jews and their struggle.  There is no justification for what she said - Israel is a sovereign nation, haven to the holocaust survivors and others that were oppressed merely due to their religion.  Helen Thomas should lose her job as she already has lost her creditability.

No, no anti-Semite comments here, move on.

Yet, comments ignorant of history, since there’s never been a “Palestinian” people.  The people thus called nowadays are Jordanians separated from Jordan by the foundation of the state of Israel.

However, still a humanitarian catastrophe now as 60 years ago.  Yet another story of an innocent civilian population caught in the middle of an international conflict between powerful and well-financed interests, Zionists on one side and several Arab nations on the other.

Israeli Author Amos Oz wrote in his memoir
“Out there, in the world, all the walls were covered with graffiti: ‘Yids, go back to Palestine,’ so we came back to Palestine, and now the worldatlarge shouts at us: ‘Yids, get out of Palestine.’

The only reasonable answer to this problem is the State of Israel. But it appears many, such as Helen Thomas and Islamists worldwide aren’t satisfied with Jews having their own state to protect themselves with.

As Israel is the Jewish State, one goes with the other. Attempting to rationalize it as not anti-Semitic simply because she was referring to Israel in disingenuous.

Israel is an always will be the homeland of the Jews, and as a Christian newspaper, I’m shocked that you would disparage your own religion’s teachings by attempting to obfuscate that simple fact.

What this author and Helen refuse to acknowledge, is that the Jews are a middle eastern people and the land of Israel is their homeland!

It seems to me that the vast majority of comments on this topic are extremely one-sided.  There are two sides to the history of what’s been going on in Israel-Palestine for the past century.  It is reactionary and bigoted to assume that all Palestinians are terrorists and all Israelis are victims.  It is not un-Christian to point out that Palestinians are just as human as Jews. 
That said, I am appalled at how our current president is treating Israel.

My great grandfather was one of many Jews who bought land from the Ottoman Empire in the early 1900s. Today it is in northern Israel. It was swamp land back then. Nobody wanted it. They paid well above average for what the land was worth. But they paid for it and they owned a deed from the original Ottoman Empire which is the legal definition from what the so-called Palestinian people claim authority.

Over the years, they figured out how to drain the swamp, they planted trees, they cultivated crops, and they prospered. They are as much Palestinian as any Muslim who lives there. Many who live in Israel today are descended from these Jews.

Where should they “go back” to? That’s like telling a person descended from African Slaves in North America to go back to Africa. It’s wrong.

So, if Helen Thomas’s statement isn’t racist, what is?

Criticism of Israel is one thing - but of Jews (many who are amongst the most vociferous critics of Israel) is that exactly what passes for ‘radical’ these days?

I mean, with a name like Thomas is she going to tell Welsh Jews to ‘get the hell out of Wales’?  Ah no, ‘cos thadda be racist an’ the very last thing that Yanks are is racist, hey *boy*!!! lol:)

Jimmy,
  I absolutely love your blog.  I am a Jew who converted to Catholicism two years ago.  I respectfully disagree with you.  Suggesting that the Jews of Israel be forced to return to Germany and Poland (where six million of the their ancestors were murdered on account of their “race”) is on its face a statement that goes far beyond criticism of Israeli policy.  Like you, I don’t know what is in her heart.  But, her statement, to my mind, reeks of Jew hatred.

Jeff

Btw…on a more serious note, if they are to go to the USA then wasn’t that taken from the original Americans?

Not all Israelis are Jews and Israel’s population will never consist of 100% Jews. People mistake that aa lot!

As an atheist, I have no dog in this fight. My question for many American Jews is if you love Israel and Judaism so much, why not move to Israel? It seems odd and unsular to cheer for a team that is so far away. My Jews in Israel that I know hate the American Jews because they talk a good talk but don’t walk a good walk.

Helen’s words were a bit poor worded BUt what about the anti Arab diatribes of Debbie Schlussel and Abe Foxman? It goes both ways.

There is nothing anti-semetic about what Helen Thomas said.

When she said “they” should “go back to Germany and Poland”, she was clearly talking about Jews who came from there in the past few decades, and not Jews whose immediate ancestors have been living in Palestine.  What she said is right and makes sense.  Jews from Germany and Poland have no more right to move to Israel/Palestine than Americans of German descent have to move to Germany, or American Catholics have to move to Italy, or Hindu American have to move to India.

Citizenship is by immediate ancestry only, or pretty much everyone would be a citizen of pretty much everywhere.  It’s one thing if Jews move from Europe to Israel.  It’s quite another if they are allowed to do so while Israel still denies the right of return to the several hundred thousand Palestinians displaced in war.  There is a right of return in international law and it refers to immediate blood descendants(children), NOT people of the same religion who claim a distant ancestral bond to a place.  Indirect ancestry has zero standing in international law.

One thing Israel and her supporters never seem to get is that nations belong to their citizens and not to religious groups.  And self-determination applies to people in a contiguous territory, not to people belonging to a race or religion.

If Germany does not belong to the Aryan tribe and India does not belong to Hindus, then Israel does not belong to Jews.  Each of them just belongs to its citizens.

Mr. Akin, your rationalization of Helen Thomas’ incendiary comments are a stretch, to put it mildly.  By saying they should go back to “Germany” and “Poland” (and then, as an afterthought “and America”), she was clearly making barbed comments at the Jews—the ones who were left post-Shoah—who fled to Israel after World War II to escape the enduring anti-semitism in those countries (remember that there were vicious anti-Jewish pogroms in Poland after WWII in which many Jews were murdered).

As a traditional Catholic, I really hate it when other Catholics give any quarter to obvious anti-semites.

OK, Leo, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that no nation’s first generation immigrants are legitimate, right? 

So, having been kicked out of almost every respectable country and civilization in recorded history, where do Jews go? They didn’t originate from Germany or Poland. They didn’t originate from Asia or Africa. Where should they “return” to?

Jeff,

I don’t ordinarily comment on my own posts (I’m content to let commenters critique what I’ve said and take my lumps), but I wanted to say that I appreciate your perspective and your respectful disagreement.

For what it’s worth, I don’t like Helen Thomas at all, and I think her remarks *were* offensive, and they were angry and malicious.

The question, to my mind, was, “What is the *object* of her hostility,” and the answer that seems reasonable (to me) from the clip is not the Jewish people as a whole but those who she sees as occupiers of “Palestine.”

It’s true that she mentions Poland and Germany, but she also mentions America and other places from which Jewish people have immigrated to Israel.

She doesn’t display anger towards Jewish people unrelated to the issue of Zionism, she doesn’t suggest that Jewish people are somehow inferior or by nature evil.

From what we can tell from the clip, she is an angry woman with a historical—not racial—grievance.

Or so it seems to me.

And as noted, I don’t even like the woman. I’m just arguing that the term “anti-Semite” should not be over used and do lose all it’s force due to the “boy who cried ‘wolf’” effect.

Thank you for your consideration.

Is this meant to be satirical? Oh yeah, it’s totally understandable for her to say that Israelis should head back to Europe (where they were never accepted, and eventually murdered) as long as she doesn’t explicitly use the word “Jew.” This is an absolutely moronic and insensitive position to take, and I frankly could care less where her family is from. I wonder, would the author think it acceptable if Ms. Thomas were to say that African-Americans should get the hell out of the United States and move back to Africa? I would certainly be offended, even if someone were to somehow come up with a justification for it being geographic (?), as opposed to racist. Seriously, is there really a distinction?

This piece falls into the category (some might say the trap) of Christian apology. Therefore at the very least it should be based on reason. What, then, can one make of the excuse that Helen Thomas “was born in 1920 and growing up as a girl and a young woman hundreds of thousands of Jewish people were immigrating to Palestine, with increasingly tense relations between them and the Palestinians”?

Thomas was born in small-town Kentucky and brought up in Detroit. Lebanon is not “Palestine,” and Palestine at the time had belonged to the Turkish empire and was then taken over by the British. Palestinians at the time Thomas was born and was growing up included many Jews, some of whose families had lived there since the fall of the Roman empire and some from at least the sixteenth century.

At the time Thomas’s parents left their home in Tripoli, Jews lived (and had done so for centuries) all over the Middle East and North Africa. Thomas as a reporter of Lebanese descent ought to know that in 1948 some 24,000 Jews lived in Lebanon. While her Maronite parents were still in Lebanon, after 1911, Jews from Greece, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey who moved to Beirut began to ally themselves with a Maronite party and helped to establish Lebanon as an independent state. Two Jewish newspapers were established, published in Arabic. This background makes Thomas’s notion of Jews as “from” Poland and Germany quite bizarre.

One might expect a reporter of Lebanese descent to know that in 1948 some 900,000 Jews from countries including Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, and Algeria were either expelled by their Arab rulers or chose to leave and emigrated to Israel. Today, roughly half of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi origin.

I don’t buy your apology. Thomas has a case of vulgar anti-Semitism. The worst part about it is, her prejudice has destroyed her ability to stay in touch with reality and react to a news event as a journalist rather than as a bigot.

Yes, Helen Thomas is antisemite and always was, those who deny that Israel is jewish homeland for more than 3000 years are antisemites, those who are concerned with Palestinian refugees from 60 years ago , but are not concerned with jewish refugees from the same time( like jews from Egypt and Irak, etc) are anti-semites, those who apply different standarts to Israel then to any other country on earth is anti-semite.
Anti-semite means jew hater and nothing else, anti Zionist means jew hater and nothing else, if critical of Israel policies, but not those of Turkey, China, Russia, Iran - means jea hater and notrhing else, i am tired of all those liars, that provoke Israel using human shields and useful idiots and then sceam “massacre” - Helen Thomas is arab anti-semite and always was

This is not the first time that a super-lib shows how hateful she can be. If you oppose Jews’ right to a homeland in the Middle East as a refuge from global anti-Semitism, you are inherently anti-Semitic. I would hope that Thomas would recognize that Jews used to live in and control the area now called Israel and that they were kicked out by various occupying powers. Does that end their territorial claim? The Palestinians have not lived in Israel proper for over 60 years now—does that mean they have no claim whatsoever anymore? I guess not.

Actually, Jimmy, you need to wok this out with venn diagragms.  Its simple.  Some people are anti-semites….let put them in one venn diagram.  Some people hate Israel…lets put them in another venn diagram.  Now, carefully, place the two venn diagrams over each other so that they are almost entirely overlapping. Now you have a perfect geometric explanation for Helen Thomas, Jimmy Carter etc.  Congratulations.

Unfortunately Ms Thomas is no real supporter of Israel. In the end, there will be those who side with Israel and those who do not. From Ha Shem, it is written that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who don’t will not have rest. It is not to late for Ms Thomas to honestly be blessed but the clock is ticking ever so rapidly for all of us to choose sides. May Ha Shem’s light be upon your heads.

Jimmy,
I just read your comment defending your horribly insensitive defense of Thomas not being an anti semite. Yes, she is speaking of Jews, I heard the interviewer ask her what Jews should do who live in Israel and she said they shoudl leave and ‘go back where they came from’. Of course that is Anti Semitism. If someone said blacks should leave America and go back to Africa would you defend them? No.
Your comments made me cringe in dismay as a fellow Catholic I feel shame that you would say such a dreadful thing as how this is not bigotry!  The Jews born in Israel have a right to live there and not ‘go back’ to where their grandparents were murdered.  You should apologize for this terrible article and stop telling Jewish people who is and isn’t an anti semite.
Please apologize as well to Catholics like myself who are aware of the history of Israel and the Jewish people and would never defend Thomas.
Being from Lebanon doesn’t make one a Semite.  Please learn some history.

Perhaps Ms.Thomas would like to follow her comments to their logical conclusion. Approximately 750,000 Jews who had lived for generations in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, etc were forced out of their homes at the time of the creation of the Jewish state. Would Helen Thomas send them back to Iran and Iraq. Tens of thousands of Ethiopian jews came to Israel within the last 25 years, I guess they go back also. Helen Thomas may deny she is an anti-semite, but she sure sounds like one.

Also, please allow me to add that we Catholics must be careful not to defend what Jews and others percieve as anti semitism. Nor should we defend any other form of hate or bigotry. This is counter to our faith and to the beliefs of Catholism.  Clearly to me and to others her comments were representative of the worst form of religious intolerance, something we Catholics with our own history of persecution should be ever mindful to denouce whereever it may be found.
You do not speak for the majority of Catholics in this piece. I hope you will apologize to the Jews to whom your defense of the indefensible has caused additional pain.

Helen Thomas should be fired not just because of the despicable nature of her hateful and biased remarks, but because of the ignorance of history they reveal.  This is absolutely unforgivable and disgusting in a journalist.  Does Helen Thomas truly not know that there was a Jewish presence in the land for thousands of years, that Jewish communities were there in the 1800’s long before the holocaust, that some 800,000 Jews came to Israel as refugees from Arab lands.

Is she truly that arrogant?  Or just spiteful and biased?

Shame on her.  Even if people say she should not be fired for a single lapse, I fear this incident has revealed her true nature.

Jimmy, right on! You deserve credit for breaking this down in a non-emotional way. As Catholics we do believe that when considering ethical questions a wrong cannot be done in pursuit of a right.

Augustine: you are spouting a tired line that some over-caffeinated Israeli government hack dreamed of when you state that the people oppressed by their eviction in pre-1948 Israel were “Jordanians”. Britain created Jordan in a smoke-filled salon in the early 20th century.

It’s pathetic that Americans have become so intolerant of freedom of speech when the opinion does not fit their own beliefs. I have long believed that Jews should have been resettled in Central Europe and this is finally gaining some traction now by making reparations, but it’s still too little, too late.

Posted by mary on Saturday, Jun 5, 2010 2:23 PM (EST):
Yeah every one is antismite, whom ever do nto agree with Israels brutial policy or critisize Israel is labeled, Jews are over board over jelous oveer peronoid over over over over
no one is buying this sh**t anymore

MARY, why are you so ignorant?  Learn how to spell and how not to curse. CRITICIZE and JEALOUS and PARANOID are the way those words are spelled. Think about this quote from the brilliant MARK TWAIN: “It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a FOOL than to open it and remove all doubt!”  PLEASE TAKE THIS ADVICE AND SHUT YOUR RACIST FOOLISH MOUTH!

MARY by the way I guess I missed ANTI-SEMITE !

After reading this article I finally understood the true meaning of the term “Jesuistic casuistry”.  Thank you (“In case you didn’t notice I was being sarcastic.” Homer Simpson).

she is an old Nazi, what would one expect from someone like that? She is probably still waiting for the third Reich to become a reality
3 minutes ago ·

Jimmy, you are being naive to the point of ignorance and far too charitable to Ms Thomas.

Yes, one _can_ be anti-Israel or anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic but Thomas is well past that.  The whole purpose of the State of Israel was/is so that Jews from around the world would have a homeland.  One can debate the justice of its creation but that horse has left the barn.

Now let’s try the Thomas Plan aka Juden, Raus!
Most Jews leave, the Islamic Republic of Palestine is declared.  The remaining Jews are slaughtered and Christians live under repression with occasional martyrdom thrown in.

In regards the heading above, I will post a counter question - Is the Pope (and is Helen Thomas) Catholic?  Your linguistic analysis is flawed.  She didn’t say the word “Jew.”  She did, however, say “they.”  She was not referring to a state, but to a group of individual which included people who had immigrated from Poland and Germany to “Palestine.”  She wanted them to get “the hell out” of Palestine.  Her audience was a Jewish Rabbi and two teenage boys in yarmulkes.  She invoked Poland and Germany, as places the Jews should go.  She could not have intended anything else, given that audience, but to call to mind Auchwitz, Treblinka, and other extermination camps.  Yes.  Helen comes from a good Catholic background.  But Catholics temporized too much during WWII in tacitly agreeing to genocide to be given any sort of benefit of the doubt today.  Yes, she is a virulent anti-jewish bigot.

Well, since the Israelites don’t get along with the Palestinians they really should get out of the country…at least for a while.  And, just to be fair, the Palestinians should stay out of Israel.

At least she didn’t tell them to “go to hell”, which is what a real anti-semite would say.

This is not debatable. Helen Thomas is suggesting ethnic cleansing, pure and simple, and with the same kind of language used by the Nazis when they wanted to make Germany free of Jews. The phrase at the time was Juden raus! (Jews out!).

You can bury your head in the sand and believe that “only Nazis are anti-Semites. Her views are very much in line with those off Hizbulla, the ruling party of her country her parents are from.

1) where should the million jews who have immigrated to Israel from Arab countries go?

2) No distinction was made between the disputed territories and and undisputed Israel.

Modern day anti-semites like to hide behind the cloak of anti-Israel and claim to be not anti-Jewish. Undermining Israel is the best way to hurt the Jewish people! Why would an anti-semite look elswhere. Helen Thomas unvailed that cloak.

I’m quite shocked at this article. This is the most apologetic piece I’ve seen to such an outrageous outburst. I hope this does not reflect the view of Catholics today.

Helen Thomas cackles with glee as she tells people to “Go home.” I don’t like the sound, I don’t like the tone, I don’t like the arrogance, and I don’t think what she said is appropriate for a day of celebration of the Jewish Culture.
Her remarks betray the thoughtlessness and ignorance and callousness of a woman who has taken her own free speech rights for granted for too long. Perhaps a return to Lebanon and her own home would do her a world of good. Bye, Bye, Helen. Have a nice trip home.

What the readers above are failing to realize is that Israel is Ms Thomas’ ancestral lands.  It’s like the Mowhawk, Sioux, or Cherokee, in 1700, telling the white men to get back to England and France etc.  Also, keep in mind that the woman is 90 years old and doesn’t particularly care how she comes across anymore.  She wants to see her homeland made whole before her death.  She sees that that isn’t going to happen and she’s spouting off. 

I agree that mentioning Poland and Germany was abhorrent.

So, since Helen Thomas is so concerned about returning people to their ancestral lands, who would like to take up a collection to help her “GO HOME”? I am certain she would feel just about as comfortable returning to her home as the Jews she suggests do likewise!

For the record, and as a faithful Catholic,we believe that the Jews are our Elder Brothers in Christ. We respect them. We love them. Miss Thomas is offbase in her faith if she does otherwise.

Jimmy, I usually agree with you, but in this case, your intellectual exercise is an just exercise in futility: the topic is too emotional an issue.  Distinguishing between *true* anti-semitism (as the term has been used in past generations and as it probably properly should still be used) and what most people *think* is anti-semitism won’t really get you anywhere except perhaps among other intellectuals who are able to step back from the emotionalism of the issue to look at it “acamedically.”  As you can see, most people are not in that category, perhaps rightly so, since the whole world seems to be against Israel—espcially those in the mass media (like Ms. Thomas), who so recently rushed to judgment against Israel for being baited into a “bully fight” in a reasonable attempt to ensure its very existence by keeping potential missles that could be used against Israel out of Gaza, but I digress—and this “anti-Israel” sentimentality is very often (though not always) is an intellectual disguise for true hatred of the Jewish religion. 

You wouldn’t have any more success in convincing people who passionately embrace the whole “gay agenda” that those (such as faithful Catholics) who say that homosexual behavior is objectively sinful (as is hetersexual unchastity according to one’s state in life, but those who embrace the gay agenda never pay attention to the fact that we also say that) are not “homophobes.”  The term “homophobia” now seems to have a meaning (at least according to them) very different from the respective meanings of all other terms ending in “phobia” and now simply means the “sickness” of anyone who would dare to call homosexual behavior a sin or say that it is NOT a *natural good* equal to heterosexualtiy. 

As for me, I believe that Ms. Thomas is probably truly anti-semitic (though not to the point of wanting Jews to climb into a gas chamber); however, I understand your “case” that the evidence given here doesn’t conclusively demonstrate that.  This is just not an intellectual exercise most poeple want to engage in because the issues behind it are too incendiary. (Did I spell that correctly, David?)

Right on Jimmy! The words “Jew” and “Israel” are not the same thing, even if Israel is basically a theocracy. There are many Jews in America and elsewhere who find the actions of modern-day Israel just plain unjust. Good for you!

I don’t happen to agree with her but not everyone has to be a zionist. it’s a very common view in the arab world and elsewhere. many voted against israels creation in 48 in anticipation of alot of the problems that have happened since. it’s not a position without merit

Calling Helen thomas an anti-Semite is nonsense. The same false charge has been leveled against Pat Buchanan and Jimmy Carter. Anyone who criticizes Israel, to some, becomes automatically an ant—Semitic bigot. This is done to scare off legitimate, needed criticism of Israel. If Helen Thomas is fired let’s get every anti-Catholic at the New York Times fired, starting with Maureen Dowd.

Excellent post, Jimmy!  Provocative.  Explores the several, and semantic, sides—the different shades of meaning of her careful words—of Ms Helen Thomas’ remarks.
Helen Thomas is without doubt the best reporter in the US today.  Her remarks, carefully worded, were in no way anti-Semitic.  That is, reflecting hatred of Jews as a people.  All your Respondents who are tumbling over each other to call Helen Thomas an anti-Semite should take a good look at themselves in the mirror.  They are the real anti-Semites.  They are the ones who overtly and covertly have made anti-Jewish remarks or condoned anti-Jewish remarks in their presence, many times over.  If there is any among them who has not, let them, and them alone, cast a stone at Helen Thomas.
Have any of these same people who are condemning Helen Thomas with such ferocity ever condemned the deceptive anti-Arab diatribes of Abraham Foxman of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League [ADL]?  Or, the mendacious anti-Muslim vituperations of Ms Debbie Schlussel?  Who, in the Conservative mode, is so lame-brained that she suggested, in all seriousness, that Ms Rima Fakih, who was crowned Miss USA in May, is a terrorist.  Why?  Because thousands of people in Lebanon, some of whom belong to Hezbollah, have the same last name as her!
Much like saying Debbie Schlussel is a Nazi because, I’m sure we can find many Nazis from the Hitler era who carried her last name!
Not unsurprisingly, Debbie Schlussel says Helen Thomas is a neo-Nazi.  Like the pot calling the kettle black.
Debbie Schlussel’s denunciation of Helen Thomas is understandable.  She makes her living calling people neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic.  But, Catholics, literate readers of the National Catholic Register, and your polite, polished, urbane, columns Jimmy – calling Helen Thomas, the best in the business, anti-Semitic?  I throw up – my hands in horror!  That so many Catholics have become unthinking, unquestioning, hate-mongers like Abraham Foxman and Debbie Schlussel.

Untill the Jews finally arrived back in Palestine, there were only a few Arabs. Now all of suddenly they feel that it is their land and the sand and flies are all theirs. After the nonsense that Mohammed on a horse ascended to heaven in Jerusalem, they feel that they should own it all, get all the Green stuff, cultivated by the Jews out and bring back the sands and flies.
I doubt that Helen ever has read in the Bible that the Jews would be returned to the land. She must think that her idea prevails of that one of the Creator.

Being anti Zionist is not the same as being anti Semitic.

That is pretentious baloney. If someone said that all Latinos living in the US, including the US citizens, should get out of this country, there would be no doubt that he a rabid racist. Nobody would defend that person by saying that he did not mean the entire group of the Latinos in the world. This play on semantics shows double standards.

I think that these comparisons between Jews and African Americans are foolish.  There is no reason other than hatred to tell a minority to go back home based on the color of their skin.  To tell a governing power with military might to relinquish their oppressive treatment/rule over a people by telling them to “go home” is an entirely different issue.

If Thomas can call the Arizona immigration law “NAZI” then how in the word can her far worse “get out” comments not be anti-semitic?  How can we build relations with Jews if we offer even a qualified defense of such horrific sentiments?

Jimmy,

Sorry, but I think you really stepped in it with this one…

I am from the same generation as Helen Thomas.  I have felt for years that she was not a nice person and should be removed from the White House.

On the otherhand, I feel that the Zionist state of Isreal has been the greatest terrorist country since it was formed.  The United States has been an enabler for their unacceptable action toward everyone in the area.

Thoughtful well written commentary.  I agree with every word. Let the Israelis come home to America and leave Palestine to the Palestinians.

Good grief, Mr. Akin, you might as well ask if a Klansman in full regalia is REALLY a racist.

Helen Thomas makes a valid point.  I think -  two wrongs do not make a right.  Jewish people were harmed and discriminated against, clearly.  This however does not give the Israeli government the right, or moral ground, to harm and discriminate against Palestinians.

Helen would obviously love the Jews to go back to the Countries that invented progroms.

Dear Jim,
  Thank you for your article, the fairness expessed in it, and your courage in posting it.  Crimes against humanity remain crimes, no matter who is the perpetrator or against whom they are perpetrated.  A form of ethnic cleansing is going on in Israel; the building of thousands of apartments for Jews in a disputed part of Jerusalem, the breaking up of Palestinian territory into non-contingeous ‘islands’, the expansion of Jewish settlements on the West Bank, the latest attack on people attempting to bring aid to the people in the Gaza strip - they are only the most recent examples.  The Christian population in the Holy Land has decreased dramatically as the Israelis make life harder for non-Jewish citizens. Tell me, if non-Jews were doing this, would the US government’s reaction be different?  I think so.  The answer is simple - Treat everyone the way you want to be treated yourself.  This is a lesson many people, including many Israelis, have failed to learn.  Thanks again, Jim, God bless -

i agree that she is a person who has been mean,rude,etc. I do not like her. I think she should be fired. if this had been against a muslim she would now have a hit on her.
Ding dong the witch is dead.

Helen Thomas is a malicious woman and Jimmy Akin is a lazy-minded buffoon, how about that for a conclusion? Neither of these people is a decent journalist. Why does Jimmy Akin decide to brush aside what he says he does believe—that Thomas is “partisan, mean, rude, and unpleasant”—to focus on what he evidently enjoys doing, framing an attack on anyone who took offense at this woman’s mean and nasty statements? For a moment, forget about whether she’s this is or that except that she is a reporter whose malice on this occasion (and possibly on others unrelated to Israel) overtakes any reasonable line of thought. What it comes down to is that at the age of 90 years, when she might be ripe and blessed with wisdom, she’s showing that something’s rotten with her insides, her core.  My conclusion is, a long time ago, Helen Thomas picked up or was implanted with hate, and it’s festered. She is unable to love her enemies as herself.

She’s biased with her Lebanese heritage and she’s ignorant of the facts concerning the origins of the Jewish and Arab peoples living in Palestine. According to Genesis, Abraham had at least 8 sons. The Joktanite tribes of southern Arabia are his descendents by his cousin wife Keturah. These intermarried with their cousins who were descendants of Ishmael and Isaac.  The word “Arab” comes from the Hebrew ereb, meaning mixed peoples. The irony is that both Jews and Arabs are mixed peoples because their ancestors intermarried.  Further, the promise of God that the Land would belong to Abraham’s descendants is not exclusive to the descendants of Isaac (who, according to analyis of the Genesis geneologies, had 3 sons: Esau, Yakob and Yisbak).

It was CLEARLY anti-Semitic.  Why not offer the JEWS in Gaza the advice to move to Israel?  You’re being too academic when it is obvious what she means.  Sometimes things are what they seem.

FWIW, why don’t the Palestinians in Israel move to Gaza?  Because in Israel they have property, they have laws, they can vote and not worry about their homes, schools, and mosques being used as shields for Palestinian Terrorists to fire missiles.  Jews in Israel treat Palestinians like the People Gaza wish they could be treated.

I’m not surprised by the name-calling going on against Ms. Thomas.  I once supported Israel’s claims and believed the propaganda against Palestinian Arabs, both Muslim and Christian Arabs.  The more history I read and documentaries I watched and conversations I had with people from Palestine, the more I learned how false the Jewish claims were.  Any criticism of how Israel came into existence and any criticism of its discrimination against Arabs in Israel or the occupied territories of Gaza and West Bank is called “anti-Semitic”.  The Israeli human rights groups B’Tselem and Peace Now have been called traitors and anti-Semitic, even though the groups’ members are Israeli Jews.  I applaud their bravery and respect for human dignity.  Richard Goldstone, a South African Jewish judge who led the UN Human Rights Council Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, found flagrant human rights abuses.  He was also called a “self-hating Jew” by Jewish extremists.  Nobel Peace Prize Winners President Jimmy Carter and Nelson Mandela both identified strong likenesses between Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and blacks in South Africa.  They were also labeled “anti-Semitic”, despite very sincere efforts to broker peace.  The simple fact is that some extremist Jews have been terrorizing Palestinian Arabs for decades (actually, since the Zionist movement under Herzl began immigrating to Palestine in the 1880s), seizing more and more land, establishing Jewish militant camps/settlements (similar to Waco, Texas), and encircling and harassing Arabs in their way.  This continues today in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, where over 500,000 Jews have continued their land grab and deny Arabs the most basic of human rights.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements,_Palestinians,_and_human_rights

She is a liberal. Lefties see these things in terms of the oppressed and the oppressor. Israelis have the power and the palis are the underdog. This is no more anti semitic than it would be for someone to have told whites to get out of south Africa or if they were to tell whites to leave north america since it is land stolen from the natives.

I find it kind of amusing, in a way. Some of the biggest promoters of the leftist think contained in such ideas are jews. Now this is all coming back to them. They scream anti semitism when they now damn well it is not anti semitism but just the ideas that they themselves promoted. They somehow seemed to think they would be allowed special privilages or a pass from having to live with the same standards they demand of others. Too bad, so sad.

Well written, Mr Akin.  Keep up the good work!  You’re broken the issue down clearly and logically.  And those who would say that “Jew” and “Israel” are synonymous need to understand that’s as foolish a statement as claiming that “Christian” and “American” are synonymous.

Religious claims that Israel belongs to the Jews because “God gave it to them” over 3000 years ago are patently absurd.  The Arabs in that area were there even longer.  Israel rebelled against the Roman Empire and were crushed by the Roman Empire and sent into exile almost 2000 years ago.  There were **some** Jews in Palestine in 1800, but they were only 2.4% of the population in Palestine.  By 1880, Jews represented 4% of the Palestinian population.  Herzl’s Zionist political movement in the 1880s was “the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel”.  Massive Jewish immigration to Palestinian (hundreds of thousands by the 1930s and 1940s) would eventually overwhelm the native Palestinian Arab population.  When the Palestinian Arabs learned the intent of Jewish migrants to seize Palestinian land and carve out a Jewish country for the Jews, they resisted, of course.  Palestine had been invaded and was being conquered and subjugated, bit by bit.  And as I indicated in a previous post, extremist Jews continue to expand into West Bank—some seek to cross the Jordan River and “re-claim” land from Jordan, reclaiming the entirety of biblical Israel.  With a modern and vastly superior military to any country in the region, and $3 Billion per year in U.S. aid (mostly military weapons), who will stop the Jewish extremists?

She’s stating her opinion about the current political situation. She has a right to her belief about the appropriateness of Israeli occupation. The problem here in the US is that most major news outlets relate events in the middle east from a pro-Israeli perspective. Anyone who questions the status quo is immediately labeled an anti-semite.

These same people should take a look at the inhuman conditions Palestinians are forced to endure in large part due to Israeli policy.

I find the witch-hunt mentality of some posting here very disturbing. You may disagree strongly with her views, but the desire to destroy someone else by labeling them a bigot is both disturbing and illuminating. As for myself, I’ll reserve judgment. For my part, if you don’t live somewhere for a thousand years, you don’t have the right to kick someone out of their home at gunpoint because your long deceased fore-fathers lived there. And that is exactly what happened to many Palestinians.

We live in a democracy. We enjoy the freedom of speech. She was asked her personal view of the matter. Learn to respect the rights of others.

She sure could put the wicked witch of the East (or is it west) out of work if she tried just a little. She is a total failure as an unbiased reporter of the news but she is not alone.

What does “Never Again” mean to you, Mr. Akin?
“Go home”, “Get the hell out”.
Israel is not occupying so-called “palestine”. The land belongs to the Jews, and has since before there was Muhammed.
Your apologetics have taken a seriously bad turn.
What does “Never Again” mean to you, Mr. Akin?
Should Israel just allow itself to be destroyed? What do you think Helen Thomas meant???
No one is asking you to make an actual “Judgement”, so to speak. But, really, what do you rhink she meant? Go back to the “home” where you were slaughtered and burned? Go back to the U.S.A., where you were denied entry?
Do not abandon reason in your attempt to be “fair” or whatever.
Your relativism is disgusting.

I agree that we should not overreact to these remarks, but I think that your point that she did not refer to “Jews” but rather to Israel is a distinction without a difference.  She was referring to the Jews.  “Israel” cannot go somewhere (“Poland, Germany, America, anywhere”); only individual Jews can do so. I also think that the way in which she spoke of the Jewish inhabitants of the state of Israel was pretty strong circumstantial evidence of anti-Semitism.  What would your argument be if she had suggested that all African-Americans return to Africa - that she was anti-citizenship/residence but not a racist?

Well, I do not know what is in Helen’s heart but her words in this video leave little doubt what is in her mind regarding the Israeli and Palestinian issue! And it is certainly mean and bigoted toward the people of Israel. And what are Israeli if not Jewish? If I recall my history these people were given this land to occupy following the terrible holocaust of WWII…a desert land that they built up and “greened up” and have succeeded in making inhabitable. Before that it was just desert and of little interest to anyone. Now that it is a beautiful country all the neighbors want in…including the Palestinians as if it were their own.
They have taunted,bombed, rocketed this nation into the kind of retaliations that do not make good neighbors. There is not a single nation there that would not push the Israelies into the sea if they
could do so. These people do not get along with each other and have
been warring forever…the only time they get along together is when two or more get together to gang up on one of the others…usually Israel.
For Helen Thomas who has made her living for over 50 years with words
her choice of words was no accident. Anyone hearing them can hear her
bias against Israel…and for that she is to be criticized…the remarks
were more mean and venemous than political. And at a function honoring and commemorating the Jewish people. No spin can exhonorate her..sorry!

Mr. Akin, this disappointing analysis misses the mark far and wide. When is it helpful, as opposed to name calling, to identify bigotry correctly? Certainly when lives depend upon the clarity. Your attempt to convert Ms. Thomas’ comments into an exercise in semantics fail to recognize that precisely when such comments are able to be made above a whisper among the intelligentsia and urbane, when they are able to be spoken glibly as if with no malice and when they are able to be excused and analysed subjectively until seemingly inoculated, they are the most dangerous. We live in an age where the political class of a large segment of the world repeat the words of Hitler, mainstreamed by the likes of Ms. Thomas, while the rest of us stand on the sidelines. Ever wonder where people were at the lead up to the holocaust? How could good, decent people permit it? You are permitting it, not just metaphysically, but standing at its next threshold.

I saw the video. There she was grandmotherly, speaking in an almost sweet voice horrible, intolerable words. This was the voice that sent millions to their deaths not so very long ago, not the howling of the dictator but the sweet assent of the grandmother. It is an unthinkable outrage, and that is the article you should have written. Not this one.

Come on gang, this woman is not an anti-Semite, she’s a good democrat.  Nothing more,she’ll believe and say whatever she is told

This is what the Zionist leader Herzl wrote in the late 1800s about what Jews should do to the Arabs of Palestine: “We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country .... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”—Theodore Herzl (from Rafael Patai, Ed. The Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Vol I)

And anti-Arab racism by Zionists continued in the 1940s: David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

And it continued in the 1970s “... it is the duty of the [Israeli] leadership to explain to the public a number of truths. One truth is that there is no Zionism, no settlement, and no Jewish state without evacuating Arabs, and without expropriating lands and their fencing off.”—Yesha’ayahu Ben-Porat, (Yedi’ot Aharonot 07/14/1972) responding to public controversy regarding the Israeli evictions of Palestinians in Rafah, Gaza, in 1972. (Cited in Nur Masalha’s “A Land Without A People” 1997, p.98)

And anti-Arab racism by Zionists continued in the 1990s: “In strategic terms, the settlements (in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza) are of no importance.” What makes them important, he added, was that “they constitute an obstacle, an unsurmountable obstacle to the establishment of an independent Arab State west of the river Jordan.”—Binyamin Begin, (son of the late Menahem Begin and a prominent voice in the Likud party writing in 1991, Quoted on page 159 of Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions)

And this racism against Arabs continues today with fanatics like Yitzhak Ginsburg, “Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged”: [Rabbi Baruch Goldstein massacred 29 Muslims praying in a mosque] From Yitzhak Ginsburg: “The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it.”

Fortunately, there are righteous Jews who stand up to such radical, extremist Jews who support Jewish terrorism against Arabs.  Jewish Israeli groups such as B’Tselem and Peace Now are dedicated to peace and reconciliation and are opposed to Zionist expansion into West Bank and proposed expansion into Gaza and Jordan.  Unfortunately, these pro-peace groups represent a small minority of Jews in Israel and the U.S.  Some of their members have been physically attacked/beaten by radical Jewish settlers and the Israeli army in the Occupied Territories for documenting and video-recording what happens there.

Her comments are beyond despicable. She has one foot in the grave and probably believes that she can get away with her comments, and she probably will. She is now part of the longest hatred in history. I will not be nice to her for her obscene hatred of my people. Poland would be a good place for her.

Genesis tells us that the Land was to go to Abraham’s descendants.  As Abraham had at least 8 sons, and likely also daughters, this can’t be used to apply to Jews alone. Zionists has misappropriated Scripture.

During the Babylonian captivity, the Jews reflected on their history and interpreted it in what is called the Babylonian Talmud. This revision of Genesis presents Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the founders of Judaism.  The Talmud expresses great yearning to return to a homeland from which the Jews would never again be taken. This is the beginning of Zionism. It is also a false picture of Abraham and his people who were Horites and Afro-Asiatic kingdom builders.

She may be anti-Semitic. I’d expect this from someone in the mainstream media. These folks don’t want to know the facts. They just want drama.

I am increasingly disgusted by the pro-Israeli comments here that ignore the realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Neither side comes to the table with clean hands. Anyone interested in a balanced view of events should consult news websites outside of the U.S. In addition to the usual sources of information.

God help all those involved. Amen.

Mr. Akin,

I hope you’ll reconsider your remarks after reading some of the thoughtful comments by those who ask how her remarks could be interpreted as anything but hate-filled. Her tone; her cackle; her utter disregard—she could not be more clear—she doesn’t care what would happen to the Jews. She just wants them to disappear from where she does not think they should be allowed to live.

I have always equated Israel with Judaism, a Jewish state. Then to say to go back where they came from?  Yes, I would defiantly say she is an anti semite.  Conservatives could not go a toe nail out of line and they would be jumped on, fired, canceled, what ever the case may be.

I would like to thank all those who called Ms. Thomas out
for her bald anti-Semitism. Her call for Jews to go back to
Poland and Germany reveals a malice towards the Jewish right
for a homeland and for safety.  Her denial of Israel’s sovereignty
reveals a more implicit hatred.  Her denial of Israel as a
legitimate nation undermines the security and political process
of a developed, democratic, and stable beacon in a troubled
and fractioned region. Ms. Thomas’s comments were not only bigoted,
but irresponsible. 

Condemnation of Ms. Thomas does not excuse Catholics from vigilance against anti-Semitism in the church today. “Nostra Aetate” is a call to tolerance. It is not the last word in our charity towards our Jewish brothers and sisters.In the last year alone I have encountered a priest who spread anti-Semitic stereotypes in a Holy Week bulletin. Rouge bishops
like Richard Williamson of the SSPX have demonstrated that anti-Semitism is alive and well on the fringes of the Church. I love the Latin Mass and our ancient traditions.  Our faith is beautiful when practiced in love and charity.  Comments like Ms. Thomas’s and Bp. Williamson remind us that the past must be interpreted through the experiences of recent history.  It’s time to practice a Catholicism that’s ancient in
memory but compassionate and just towards the world of today.

Mr. Akin, though I have rarely agreed with you, I have respected
your opinions.  This article is beyond the pale of reasoned
editorial.  Please reconsider your defense of Ms. Thomas’s statements.

One more thing: Why would Ms Thomas think Jews belonged in Poland or Germany more than ‘Palestine’?  She is as ignorant as she is bigoted. 

As far as the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Israel: Israel debates and seeks to improve relations with Palestinians through the application of Jewish knowledge and ethics.  The Arab states and all Muslim countries cynically use the Palestinians as human fodder to back Israel into a corner and create a crisis like the latest boat tragedy.  Israel offered to take the goods on the boat and inspect them to ensure they are not weapons and deliver them under the supervision of the people on the boat.  The people on the boat were stirred into a frenzy and attacked Israeli commandos with sticks and clubs they had cached on the boat.  Someone brought a cache of stick and clubs to fight Israeli commandos!!!  This was a worse than a suicide mission, it was murder mission where the people who sent the boat wanted Muslims killed so they could print it in the paper. 

Our own Church sends people to Israel to see the plight of the Palestinians and they are shown staged and forced privation that is due to conditions set by the Palestinians and their rulers in Gaza, not the Israelis.  The worst part is that they fall for it.  I am ashamed to think it is as often as not from willful blindness or the vain desire to be admired by academics.

By the way, beng an anti-Semite is not the end of the world if you will change.  The way change starts is to be told.  We are not helping her by trying to create loop holes instead of telling her that what she said was not only offensive by aids evil.  If her heart is good she will understand.

She is not mistaken at all and not enough about the Zionist and the Israeli Gov who are brutal and criminals,before sending them back to their countries they should be send the an international court for committing a state crime over the civilians Palestinian.Last week they attacked the peace bought which attempted to release Gaza from the blockage.and committed a war crime against the Gazan last year and many more crimes which was covered by the governors of the US.I am a Christian from the holy land and Israel are not leaving us in peace. ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH giving them your TAXES to kill Christians of the holy land.

In reading most of these comments, I am surprised that Catholics don’t know what they ought to believe and shamelessly promote views contrary to the faith.

Zionism is a new movement that started in the 19th century. It is really a belief that the people of Jewish faith need to occupy Palestine by carving a section of it into the “State of Israel”. Orthodox Jews would argue otherwise www.nkusa.org . They will tell you that Jews are in exile and should continue to be in exile and should not found a state (no less one granted by the U.N.)but rather should live amongst the nations. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

The sooner people realize the dangers the world faces with atheistic and nominal Jews in Israel, the better off we shall be.

Please, do not call me racist or anti-Jew, I am not one.

If we are giving back Territories to those that were there before, base on history, then does USA ought to give back to the Mexican, the Indians, the Vikings…....their Land back.  Israel is the only territory that had been taken from whom live there to others that came back for the free land…...anyone will go back to a home they had left whom knows for how long, if Free Land were offered.  Then, I will be so DEEP into my religion and pulled all my History and traditions to back my right to the land taken from others…..

Jimmy, I admire and respect your work but think you missed the mark on this one. Former Clinton attorney Lanny Davis recently released a statement which I think shows the problem clearly. It is not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, but that is not what is going on in the Thomas remarks.

To quote Davis:
“This not about her disagreement or her criticisms of Israel. She has a right to criticize Israel and that is not the same as being an anti-Semite.

However, her statement that Jews in Israel should leave Israel and go back to Poland or Germany is an ancient and well-known anti-Semitic stereotype of the Alien Jew not belonging in the “land of Israel” — one that began 2,600 years ago with the first tragic and violent diaspora of the Jews at the hands of the Romans.

If she had asked all Blacks to go back to Africa, what would White House Correspondents Association position be as to whether she deserved White House press room credentials — much less a privileged honorary seat?”

Even in our own political discourse here in the U.S. it is always ugly to tell someone to go back where he came from; that notion is particularly foul in the Israel/Palestine context.

Jews are NOT Semites they are Mongol/Turks that come from the caucus region formerly known as Khzaria.

that’s where they need to go

Mr Akin,

I would like to thank you for what I believe to be the *real* point of this post. I certainly did not read in your article any defense of Ms. Thomas’ clearly insensitive and bigoted remarks; however, it IS important to distinguish between the Jewish people and Israel as a political state.  It’s true, there are many Jews who are Zionists; however, I have studied with and spoken to a great number of devout Jews who believe that re-instating Israel was not only a political and social mistake, but a theological one as well. Ms. Thomas may well be an anti-semite, as you point out, but unless one can prove that her bigotry extends to ALL Jews and not just a particular group who inhabit a particular region of the world, I believe that you are correct.  The real issue here is not whether we should point fingers at a particular individual (Thomas, Carter, et al), but that we SHOULD refrain from gross categorization and characterization of people based on insufficient information… because that, quite frankly, is prejudice. Thank you for your post.

“Jews are NOT Semites they are Mongol/Turks that come from the caucus region formerly known as Khzaria.”

I have been researching Abraham’s Horite people for 25 years and can state uncategorically this that is a false statement. Abraham’s ancestors came out of west central Africa and are associated with places like Nok, Lake Chad and the Upper Nile.

An ancient legendary hero, Csaba, (from whom the Hungarian Scholar Hagrita Csaba is descended) is said to trace ancestry back to the Horites. Csaba was a shepherd priest who was a guardian of the people. He married a Khwarezmian woman, and Khwarezm was founded by the Horites. This is evident in the Old Persian word Huwarazmish which is related to the Ancient Horite word for ruler-priests (Harwa) who controlled the major waters systems in the Afro-Asiatic Dominion.  Various versions of khwar/khar/khor/hor are used around the Persian Gulf for tidal flats, marshlands, or tidal bays (e.g., Khor Musa, Khor Abdallah, Hor al-Azim, Hor al-Himar, etc.). There are also Indian Scythians of the Csaba tribe from Khwarezm who migrated eastward and settled in India.

The Magyar-ab, or Tribe of Magyar (Magog), still live along the Nile River in Egypt and Sudan. Their ancestors moved east and north during the time of the Afro-Asiatic expansion under Nimrod the Kushite and the early Sudra (Sudanese) and early Dravidians.

Magog, Gog and Og are Afro-Asiatic peoples who settled along the Ural and Atlas Mountains.  This explains why Hungarian is not an Indo-European language.  It is in the same language family as Finnish, Samoyed, and languages of western Mongolia.

Bethlehem was originally a Horite settlement in an ancient Horite territory. So to the degree that Jews by blood desscent through their Jewish mothers are descendents of Abraham the Horite, they should be sent to Bethlehem.  : )

Jimmy,

Why would you want to spend (waste) your considerable talents making an arcane point about “anti-semitic” versus “anti-zionist” and defending Helen Thomas?  Let the Washington Post, or the Washington Press Corps defend her ... if they have any further use for her.

The much more important narrative here is the out of control media and their singular inability to tell the story of Israel/Palestine in a far and unbiased way.  Sadly, Ms. Thomas is the tip-of-the-iceberg of the liberal media - an ugly, lazy, self-righteous liberal - and an anti-semite to boot (maybe her words here don’t rise to that level - I think they do - but her demeanor sure does!

Don’t trust the liberal media!

Thank you to Mark and Alice and others who have spoken against the bone chilling defense of this hateful comments about sending Jews ‘back to Poland or wherever they came from’. As a Jewish parent, a mother raising two little girls this article filled me with fear and dread for the future of my beautiful little girls. For the National Catholic Register to defend such comments and to say that ‘anti semitism’ cannot apply here is so frightening I have no words to articulate my feelings.
Altho there are many Catholics who speak out against bigotry toward Jews, at risked their own lives during the Holocaust to save people from the Nazi’s no one can deny that going back as far as the Inquisition there has been officially sanctioned personcution of Jewish by the church.
To those of you Catholics who posted against this article I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart and to the editors of this Journal please think carefully for the sake of all our children before you defend such comments as Thomas made.  There are 13 million Jewish people left, we stand at the knife edge of extiction. Please, lets have the terrible history between Catholics and Jews become a thing of the past.

Today’s Jews are NOT Abraham’s people. They are recent converts to the !@#$% Talmudic beliefs spawned by the race mixing Hebrew tribes that were in captivity in Babylon ( the tribes of Judah or the southern kingdom of the original Israel )

The overwhelming percentage of modern Jews are Ashkenazim from the region I mentioned in my first post.

Yes, the Jews are the seed of Abraham. The Lord told Abraham that I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the heavens. His wife was named Sarah because she laughed in her old age at this prophecy. Well, I wish Helen Thomas a happy retirement and would be glad to contribute for a ticket to return her to her marvelous homeland of Lebanon. Farewell! Enjoy the freedoms you will not have to speak out in your home, dear Helen and bewail the foolish remarks against the Jewish people that you made on the freedom of American soil. Glad you are retiring. Hope if you get in trouble that the Jewish people will come to your defense. Not! Perhaps your Arab buddies will come to your aid. Not!

Sorry mam the overwhelming majority of modern Jews are NOT the seed of Abraham any more than Sammy Davis Jr. was.

Conversion to a religion does not make one the off spring of it’s founding fathers or father.

John Smith, are you a geneticist? Are you a geneologist? My baptism into Catholicism does indeed make me an heir(read the bible, okay?)
Perhaps a look into the shady ladies in Jesus Christ’s background might make you more amenable to history and fact?

The point is, I grew up in NYC with Jewish neighbors, Jewish classmates. John Paul II grew up in Poland surrounded by Jewish friends and studying with Jewish classmates. It is not your place to judge who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. As for myself, I feel very Jewish and am quite grateful that the Jews have left us the Old Testament. My boss is a Jewish carpenter. I don’t think you are eminently qualified to discuss ethnicity. The point being that a Maronite Catholic from Lebanon who is a journalist has spewed hateful rhetoric about my friends the Jews and I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE, BIGOTTED, UKIND, UNWARRANTED AND NASTY.

What’s interesting is that Americans go into hysterics when an 89 year old lady criticizes Israel but don’t seem all that bothered when a US citizen, a 19 year old boy, is shot in the face at close range by Israeli commandoes. Think about the pure volume of comment on this triviality, the ferocity of Thomas’s critics, in comparison with responses to Gaza’s “Wounded Knee” moment back in 2008-2009. This is merely payback for Thomas’s imprudent remarks and her history of challenging the hasbara line of reportage most major media outlets embrace.

How can you EVEN try to spin her words and meaning..If she’d said,” All blacks should go back home!” What would your comment be then? Is this why they call you an APOLOGIST? Then please go to Israel and apologize to the Jews! Why do they allow you to post on a Catholic board? So now Catholics are against Jews and their rightful land around Jerusalem called Israel..Haven’t you ever read the bible?!?

The real outrage is why did someone stick a camera that close to her face.  Thank God I don’t have HD.

look at what she has written in the past about Isreal and the Jews and you will get your answer. In short yes she is.

Helen Thomas is an honorable lady. She is Catholic. Her nephew is a Catholic priest whom we met at Church in the Chicago area. She lasted 50 plus years reporting.  She dealt with many US presidents from the late years of Eisenhower administration. Check out her history in Wikipedia. Check out the questions that she asked some of the presidents about the Middle East problems. The president who was asked would answered around the question to avoid telling the truth directly. Helen is not anti-Semitic, she is not anti-Semite, she is not racist. Helen is a journalist not a politician. Helen said let the Israelis go home. They should go back to where they came from. As a Palestinian refugee myself (displaced by Jews in 1948 from outside Palestine and from the countries mentioned by Helen), I feel the same they should go back to their homes. I had an American Jew as a roommate in college. I met many Jews in college. Palestine is known through out history as the home of all people of many tribes and ethnic background. Palestine was never a home for Jews only. Read the Bible and find out the real history of Palestine. Palestinians helped the Jewish immigrants settling in Palestine. Read the book “We belong to the land by Fr. Elias Chacour published by Harper San Francisco”. Get a better idea who the Palestinians are and what the Israelis are doing to them in return.

Let us hope that Palestinians will have the right to return to their homeland “Palestine”. We wouldn’t be a threat if we are giving the right to return or even to visit our homeland.

The truth is the Jews whether being called Zionists or non-Zionists control Political lobbyists, political decisions, Hollywood, Media, TV and journalism, Finance, banking, and many other issues and sectors in the US and the world.

I found an article that will give the average American an idea who Israel is and whom we are supporting. This article is never on the news because the media is controlled by the Jews.

  ISRAEL"S LIST OF BROKEN WORLD RECORDS
   
   

  From: Ken Freeland
  Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 17:03
  Subject: [tnet] FW: Israel’s List of Broken World Records
  Israel, a country the size of New Jersey can only claim to the following
  achievements:

  . Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine
  . Israel holds the world record in the number of towns & villages it
  ethnically cleansed.500+
  . Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported.4 million +
  . Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished.60 thousand +
  . Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation. 500+ times
  . Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes.100+ times
  . Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country.50 thousand+
  . Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country.250 thousand+
  . Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country.50 thousand+
  . Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other
  country.200 thousand+
  . Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United
  Nations. These countries are America & Micronesia. The population   for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 108000
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly steals the water of its neighbours
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination
  . Israel stands unique in using human shields in military operations
  . Amongst all countries, Israel is the only one that has legalized torture
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial
  . According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints
  . According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel holds the world record in the number of curfew its installed on the Palestinians
  . Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints deny women access to hospitals, they give birth alone and babies usually die
  . Israel is exceptional in being the only country on Earth whose checkpoints denies patients access to hospitals, and they end up dying
  . Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints are where wedding parades come to an end
  . Israel is the only country on Earth who checkpoints school children, denies them access to school, and puts an end to their classes
  . Israel is one of two countries that, against International Law, use cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs. America is the other. what a surprise huh?
  . Israel holds the world record in the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the army
  . Israel despite being a rich country, receives the highest financial aid, more than the sum aid to all sub-Saharan Africa!
  . Israel claims its enemies want to wipe it off the map, but it has indeed wiped a whole country called Palestine off the map!
  . Israel is the county that has introduced nuclear weapons into the Middle East. But the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty
  . After East Germany, Israel is the only country that is building a
  segregation wall
  . Second to South Africa, Israel is the only country to establish an
  apartheid regime
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first iron gates on roads
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first cities turned into jails with gates and opening hours
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first apartheid walls
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first electrified segregation fences
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first ‘eyes specific’ rubber bullets
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first abortion efficient, infant killing tear gas
  . Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first humiliation guaranteed human cages
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that has a political party that publicly advocates ethnic cleansing of native citizens (Palestinians)
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that still has racist laws that discriminate against native citizens (Palestinians)
  . Israel is the only country on Earth known to have a memorial dedicated to a terrorist where his followers gather and dance
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that imprisons kids for political reasons
  . Israel is the only country on Earth where you get a one month community service for intentionally, smashing the head of a child! How much more proof do people need to see that Israel is a terrorist nation?????! !!!!!!!!!
  . Israel is the only country on Earth that does not hold its soldiers accountable for shooting peace activists in cold blood
  . No other country on Earth has towns and cities allocated exclusively for one ethnic group
  . The only country on Earth, where people live in homes stolen from living refugees is, Israel
  . The only place on Earth where people cultivate fields stolen from living refugees is, Israel
  . Israel has the highest number of towns built upon ethnically cleansed villages, whose former residents are living refugees

Laya,
I was very touched by your response.  Please know that I will be praying for you and your daughters.
Clearly it was not Jimmy Akin’s intention to defend the vile hatred spewed by Thomas, but to point out that her comments (while truly vile,) could not be “properly” labeled anti-Semitic.  (Personally, I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Akin on this one.)
You stated “going back as far as the Inquisition there has been officially sanctioned persecution of Jewish by the church.”  I would state that there are always “bad apples” in a group of people.  From the middle ages, on into the 20th century there was Christian persecution of Jews.  Clergy were often involved.  While this is a terrible “black eye” for us Christians, and I am truly sorry for the atrocities committed against the Jews, I do want to point out that it was never Church Dogma that taught anti-Semitism.  These people (even high ranking bishops,) acted on their own, and convinced others to follow.
The Jews are our beloved elder brothers in faith.  Catholicism comes from Judaism.  Jesus’ humanity is ethnically Jewish, from His Jewish mother. 
As Pope Benedict said in January ”The Church has not failed to deplore the failings of her sons and daughters, begging forgiveness for all that could in any way have contributed to the scourge of anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism ... May these wounds be healed forever.”

Petruska

I have some knowledge of genetics but i have a stronger background in history. I also have in depth knowledge of the bible as it relates to history.

Your problem is that you are confusing Jews and Hebrew Israelites.

Do you have any knowledge of the civil war between Judah and Israel?

The bible says in your SEED you will be blessed not by the followers of your religious beliefs.

Most modern Jews are NOT the seed of Abraham, Arabs are, this includes the Palestinians.

If you are a follower of Jesus do you believe you are descended from him?

Have you ever read john 8 44 i suggest you read john 8 from at least 8 30 to 8 45.

In fact Jesus was NOT a Jew he was from effriam.

I could go on but the truth is the truth.

If modern Jews claim Palestine based on the fact that they are the seed of Abraham and the truth is that they are not the seed of Abraham then they have no claim a all.

Helen Thomas was forced to retire after making anti-Zionist comments in an interview with a Rabbi. Helen never even uttered the word “Jew” in that interview.

Only people who are ignorant equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.

Even Nathan Birnbaum, the man credited with coining the word ‘Zionism’ turned against it in his later years. Together with my grandfather Henri B. van Leeuwen, an Orthodox Jew, they published a newspaper in the Netherlands the late 1930’s called ‘Der Ruf’ which argued like Helen Thomas that European Jews had no right to move to Palestine and displace the Palestinian people who had been there for many generations.

This week I demonstrated with hundreds of other Jews in Los Angeles to protest Israel’s attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. Does that make us all anti-Semitic?

I love and support Helen Thomas. She is my hero and absolutely right! Too bad that now there will be no one left in the White House Press Corps to ask the hard questions.

Mike,

The fact that Jordan was a British invasion has nothing to do with the fact that the Palestinian “people” was also a fabrication.  Or would you say that Alabamans are any different from Americans just because they happen to live mostly within the state of Alabama and speak funny?

I mean, “Jordan was a British INVENTION”.

Kathy

Not that killing innocent people is justified by the fact that other people have killed more innocents than another group of people.

Did you know that the Jews in the Spanish civil war killed more Christians in 3 months 35,000 than were killed in inquisitions over a period of 400 years?

Also many of the Jews that were killed over those 400 years were guilty of some terrible crimes.

“How can you EVEN try to spin her words and meaning..If she’d said,” All blacks should go back home!” What would your comment be then?
 
But in the first place, she didn’t say “blacks,” or “Jews.” She seems to have made a political statement, not a racial statement.
 
In the second place, she spoke of Israelis leaving Palestine for America (among other destinations)—where she herself lives. She doesn’t seem to want Israelis away from her, which is what you would think a racist would want. She seems to think they don’t have a right to be in Israel.
 
Certainly a massively stupid thing to say, but I can’t see that this saying—“they should be, e.g. here in America, not over there in Israel”—establishes that she is a racist. It seems like a pro-Palestinian statement, not an antisemitic one.

john smith,

One of my classmates brutally stabbed a man to death.  That doesn’t make me feel better about myself, it makes me grieve for the victim and his loved ones.

Nabil..with all the crap you copied..don’t you wonder who is really behind all those so-called statistics?..You make Israel sound worse than Iran,North Korea,Saudi Arabia,Somalia,Russia..WOW..sounds to me like you must search the internet to find any made-up statistic to degrade Israel! Personally, if it was a safe place to go I would be there to walk the streets that My Jesus walked! But,with the violence from the Arabs..sadly I can’t. The Palestinians as you call them are not from that area…They are all shipped in from everywhere else and are the thowaways of other Arab countries. They are the propaganda tool of all Terrorist.Why don’t they just move is they are so miserable?Makes ya think just maybe they are martyrs for all jew-haters “cause”?

Great. Now the crazies are here.  Somebody writes this ridiculous sentence:

“In fact Jesus was NOT a Jew he was from effriam.”

That will come as a surprise to the NT writers who constantly acclaim him as the Son of David and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. “Jew” is derived from “Judah”.

Jesus is a Jew.  Deal with it.

Oh, and it’s spelled “Ephraim”, Mr. Expert on Jewish History.

A person is regarded as a Jew by the following conditions:

His or her mother was Jewish or he or she converted properly to Judaism.

Jesus was Jewish because his Blessed Mother was Jewish and the daughter of a priest, Joachim.

Egypt is going to revoke the citizenship of men who are married to Jewish women.  Why?  Because their children will be Jews.

I agree that there is not enough here to accuse Thomas of being an anti-Semite.  Are there elements of her comments that cause concern and raise a certain level of suspicion?  I think that’s reasonable.
But, unlike some here, I did not take her “tell them to go home” comment as akin to white Americans telling black Americans to “go home” to Africa.  Her interest was clearly not in removing Jews from her own neighborhood, which certainly would be anti-Semitic.
 
I don’t see indiscriminate broad-brushing of Jewish people as a whole in her comments.  I am aware of no pattern of behavior wherein Helen Thomas consistently singles out Jews for criticism or exhibits a clear double-standard when Jews are involved.

As such, I agree with Jimmy across this board on his assessment:  there is plenty to criticize in regard to what she said (and how and where she said it), I’m not at all a fan of Helen Thomas, but there is insufficient evidence to brand her as a anti-Semite based on these comments alone.

Kathy

It is you and your buddies always crying the blues committed against the Jews not the he brews mind you, the Jews e.g. the holocaust inquisition etc.

I am merely pointing out that the Jews have a far worse track record for committing atrocities than any one else.

as stated above Jews killed 35,00 Catholics priests bishops and nuns in 3 months during the Spanish civil war. More than all the Jews, some of them that were guilty of horrible crimes in the 400 years of the inquisitions.

Jewish Bolsheviks killed over 60,000,000 Christians during their time in power in Russia and you probably never even heard of that did you?

why are the jews always the victims and never do they want to take blame for what they do.

Mark you are wrong and maybe you are familiar with the quote that the scepter will remain in Judah UNTIL the messiah comes.

If Jesus is the messiah he is not a Jew. if he is a Jew he can not be the messiah. of course if you are a Jew you are anti Christ.

Sorry for the typo I think faster than I type

alice unlike jews hebrews trace their lineage through the father not the mother.

look through the o.t. the line is traced from Adam through Noah through Shem etc. there are only a few references to the woman as mothers.

your statements of traceing the birth right through the females for Jews and the obvious trail of decent listed in the bible using the men,only further prove my point. Modern Jews are not the descendants of Abraham Isac and Jacob Israel as stated in the bible they trace their birth right through the mother.

“If Jesus is the messiah he is not a Jew. if he is a Jew he can not be the
messiah. of course if you are a Jew you are anti Christ.”

Nonsense! Jesus is the fulfillment of the first divine promise on record (Gen. 3:15) that by the Woman would come the Seed, the Son of God, who was anticipated by Abraham’s Horite people. This is the beginning of Messianic expectation and why the Horite priestly lines intermarried exclusively. Jesus was an Aramaic speaking Jew of the Horite priestly lines that intermarried. Abraham’s mother was a Horite whose father was associated with the Egyptian shrine of Horus at Karnach. Likewise David, from whom Jesus descended, had Horite blood. Rahab of Jericho was the wife of Salmon the Horite. Salmon is called the “father of Bethlehem” in 1 Chronicles 2:54. Rahab became the grandmother of Boaz who married Ruth. Salmon is a Horite name and is associated with Bethlehem (1 Chronicles 2:51).

This is getting a little scary. Political correctness seems to be the main issue here. I have never liked Helen Thomas, as she has always been a bit too opinionated and cantankerous for my taste, though I admit to having enjoyed her antics as entertainment, occasionally. The issue here seems to be that she has got too close to the very confused American notion of “anti-Semitism”, which is one of the bedrock tenants of American political correctness.  Not taking into consideration that Helen is a Semite herself and her usual cantankerous personality, what she seems to display is obvious anti-Zionism, which I find hard to define as anti-Semitism, as a number of ultra Orthodox Jewish groups are also anti-Zionist. Another scary concept that some posters mentioned is that opposing the policies of the state of Israel is the new anti-Semitism. That idea is just plain rubbish. The same notion would make opposition to the British government, anti-angloism. Or, would I have been an anti-German racist to have opposed National Socialism during the Second World War? Let’s not demean the title of anti-Semite. Let’s save it for those who have historically deserved it, as well as those today who truly deserve it. As for the Helen Thomas affair, Mr. Akins seems to be one of the few writers that I have seen who have been able to put this “tempest in a teapot” into perspective.

Mr. Akin, you are correct.  What saddens and frightens me is that there are so many people who so freely reject your well-reasoned comments.  People may disagree with Ms. Thomas’ words and attitude, but should not call her “anti semitic”, because there is literally no evidence in the clip.
The Geneva Conventions, signed in the aftermath of WWII, state that, in situations of occupied territories, civilians may not be settled there.  These Conventions, obviously, have long been ignored in regard to occupied Palestine, and Ms. Thomas’ remarks seem to suggest that that has been the cause of much of today’s unrest.  One may certainly criticize the state of Israel without thereby being racist.  In fact, many Jews reject Zionism and feel that Zionism is racism.

If you are against the state of Israel which is the historic home land of the Jewish people well then you are against the Jews. Period. You are therefore an anti-Semite. Good try to say otherwise.

Alice

I am sorry I took the discussion of track and will return to the original topic the proof of Jesus lineage left for another day.

I agree with your statements in part but still disagree on the key point. You quote Genesis and insert the word Jew. there are NO Jews in Genesis. there are only Hebrews. the Jews don’t appear until the last books of the o.t. after the Babylonian captivity. David and Jesus were from Ephraim I believe it was Boaz who was the Ephraimite. I will verify.

Returning to the real issue the important thing is that modern Jews are NOT from Israel or Judah by blood line as you claim. They are Khazars who converted to Judaism at the end of the first millennium they are Not the decedents of the earthly fore fathers of Jesus. Therefore they have no right to be in what they call Israel today.

You are also correct in your statement that the children of modern Jewish mother will be Jews because they trace their blood line through the mother. The sons of Abraham trace their blood line through the father , further proving my position modern Jews are not the seed of Abraham Isac and Jacob Israel. and have no claim to the kingdom. they need to go back to Khazar territory.

Sorry Joan

the mixed race Jews were not there very long the Canaanites were there first and for a longer period of time.

the Hebrews were also there first and for a longer time.

The Christians were there for a longer time.

The decedents of the Khazers, modern Jews have been there for less than a century.

It is NOT their homeland.

Just as Mr. Akin, you are cutting it too fine and not seeing the piece in whole. Thomas’ antisemitism rests in two parts. In the first, the Jewish people are spoken of as chattel - let them be moved or let them be made to move. The Jews, in this construct, are less than a self determining people, but the chattel of “proper” people whose judgment is paramount. The concept is demeaning and steeped in bigotry. In the second, the Jewish people are to be made to move to Germany and Poland where their holocaust was planned and carried out respectively. The bigotry is in the denial of their value as human beings - “Send them where ever, to the place where they were slaughtered or to the farthest corners of the earth. It is of no concern.” Here, the Jew is even unworthy of a history as a people. Mr. Akin seems to be of the opinion that bigotry consists of an insult, but that the mind that reveals a complete calculation cannot be bigoted, even if that thought dismisses and disposes of an entire people. Utter nonsense.

As a Catholic I want to be sure to disassociate my faith from Mr. Akin’s viewpoint. The history of the region is complex, but not inaccessible to the average person. As Mr. Akin should well know from his encounters with anti-Catholic bigotry, the fact that history can be made to serve any purpose is not to indicate historical truth does not exist nor is it sufficient to simply allow everyone has his viewpoint. This article should not have been written, particularly by a person who in part specializes in defending the Catholic Church against bigotry.

“The sons of Abraham trace their blood line through the father.”

That is false. Title as a ruler was traced through the fathers, but blood line was traced through the mothers.

The word Jew is not used in Genesis. Abraham and his ancestors were not Jews. We can agree on that.

Where is your evidence that ALL the Jews of today are descendents of Khazars who converted to Judaism? What about descendets of Abraham who never went to Persia-India? These can’t be termed Khazars. Are you aware that the Khazars came after the Khwarezm or Horezm (Horite) whose territory was controlled by Horite ruler Priests during the Afro-Asiatic Dominion 10,000-12,000 years ago?

john smith

I find your comments unworthy of a thoughtful response.

Kathy

can you make a thoughtful response?

your post about a man killing some one not making you feel better about yourself shows you missed the point maybe it was my fault not expressing myself clearly expressing but when you say you feel sorry for the victim you begin to see my point.

Any good person would fell sorry for the victim.

Don’t you think that the sorrow felt by the survivors of 100 victims deserves more weight then the survivors of 1 victim.

and if one group kills 100 victims should they not bear more guilt blame and punishment then the killers of just 1 victim?

Alice

i never said that all jews are Khazars I said that the overwelming majority of modern Jews are descended from the Khazars.

maybe you should look to the orthodox Jews that believe that Israel should NOT exist to find the sons of Abraham.

I don’t see how that would be possible the genealogy in the bible doesn’t have enough woman mentioned to trace it.

the Khazar kingdom a first century a.d. empire they adopted Judaism in the late years of that first millennium.

That is my point they are not the Hebrews or Judahites.

they are converts with no birth rights from Abraham.

Who was Judah’s mother?

Why did Judah lose the birth right from Jacob Israel.

Abrahams birth right goes to him.

Sorry Alice

a line was dropped when the posts refreshed the line read

who got Jacobs blessing and the birthright.

the land and the birth right to him .

That person was Ephraim.

Ephraim was from the northern kingdom of Israel he was not a Jew.

Jeanne, There is no need for me to search the internet for all the crap you accused me to copy. I received them from a family member living in the Middle East. It is a fact of life but you will never read about it because of the media control by the Jews in this country. Thanks to the Jewish propaganda and influence to discredit many countries. The statistics are not made up to degrade Israel they are listed in the United Nations. If you feel safe to go to Palestine (the Holy Land) feel free to go because it is safe due to the Israeli control over the land and the people to make it safe for you and others. I was born there, I know it is safe. I was allowed once to visit my home because the Israelis don’t want Palestinians to come home. How do you feel if you couldn’t go to your hometown? Read about the Palestinians that the Jewish media does not publish. My parents were born there and had many Jewish friends prior to the creation of Israel by the UK and US. In fact we have a common heritage with the Jews that lived with us for centuries who they were less than 10 % of the population. As Catholics we have religious heritage in common with the Jews. Don’t forget the Jews made sure that Christ was punished and crucified. Read about the high priests in the New Testament.  I walked the streets that Our Jesus walked.  There is more violence here than in the occupied Palestine.  The Palestinians are from the area. They lived for many years. They were neither Arabs nor Jews but it happened that some Palestinians became Jews, other became Christians and many others became Moslems. The neighborhoods changed constantly some by faith , some by force and political dirt. I never heard of Palestinians shipped to the land from anywhere. This is news to me. They are not the thowaways of other Arab countries as you mentioned. Most Palestinians are not Arabs but speak the Arabic language due to the influence of Islam. Many Palestinians speak Hebrew due to the occupation by the Israelis. A lot of Palestinians are educated and speak more than one language. Israel was founded by terrorist in the early 20th century. The British Belford declared a home for people without home in the land without people. How did that happened? Do you know where the Jews came from to live in Palestine? Who writes history?. I only believe the Bible not the media.

“Palestinian people?” Nice how you snuck that one in there to further your agenda, as did the purveyors of “guncrime” a few years earlier, in order to condition the minds of the populace into associating guns with crime - and in this case, to get the populace to think of the so-called “palestinians” as a people. There is not, and never has been, a “palestinian people.”

the writer is either very stupid or trying to cynically get some mileage out of this miserable woman’s plight. i am ashamed of myself for even commenting

You don’t have to be an expert on say the European Union working definition of anti-Semitism, in order to grasp that the remarks by Helen Thomas about ethnic cleansing of Jews were pure and blatantly anti-Semitic. The real question is understanding the motivations of Akin, a Catholic apologist, in writing this blog defending Helen Thomas, presuming, of course, that he is not a secret supporter or Jewish anti-missionary activity.

Akin’s problem, as a Catholic apologist, is with all the accepted legal and moral definitions of anti-Semitism. He wasn’t so much defending Thomas as defending the narrow definition of anti-Semitism.  According to this narrow definition, anything you say about the Jews is not anti-Semitic unless you specifically state that you hate “the Jews” (according to Akin no pronouns allowed) or you specifically state that you want to kill or physically harm Jews.

Since I have no reason to suspect that Akin is anti-Semitic by any definition used, why did he as a Catholic apologist, find it incumbent to try and convince us to accept the anti-Semite’s definition of anti-Semitism? The answer is that when you apply accepted definitions of anti-Semitism you catch in your net, not only the Helen Thomas’, but also the Holocaust denier Bishop Williamson. You have to define Fr. Fahey, the proponent of “Jewish naturalism” as an anti-Semite along with Fr. Feeney of “the Point” magazine fame and Father Coughlin of Catholic hate radio, to name just a few.  According to the anti-Semite’s definition of anti-Semitism, if you preach that Jews are a detrimental force to Christianity, or that they control all the media and all the banks, or that the Jewish state should be destroyed (provided you first ship the Jews back to the lands of Auschwitz and Treblinka) why that’s just stating an opinion and not anti-Semitism in the least. If Akin can convince you to accept the narrow definition of anti-Semitism,he doesn’t have to explain and defend as a Catholic apologist, a lot of things that can be construed as anti-Semitism because they don’t fit this narrow definition. Bishop Williamson, for example,under the narrow definition of anti-Semitism is no longer an anti-Semitic holocaust denier. He is an “amateur historian” stating an “academic opinion” based on his research of the Shoah.

Of course,there’s always the definition of anti-Semitism by the Catholic apologist Robert Sungenis. The Jews, he explained, “are the real anti-Semites as they killed Jesus and Jesus was a Jew”.

“Thomas’ antisemitism rests in two parts. In the first, the Jewish people are spoken of as chattel - let them be moved or let them be made to move. The Jews, in this construct, are less than a self determining people, but the chattel of “proper” people whose judgment is paramount.”
 
Whatever you may think of Thomas does not excuse you of the duties of the eighth commandment toward her. She said: “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine. [The Palestinians] are occupied. It’s their land.” Then, in response to the question “Where should they go?” she answered: “Poland, Germany, America and everywhere else.”
 
Nothing there about “being made to move.” To say that there is is simply false.
 
“In the second, the Jewish people are to be made to move to Germany and Poland where their holocaust was planned and carried out respectively. The bigotry is in the denial of their value as human beings - “Send them where ever, to the place where they were slaughtered or to the farthest corners of the earth. It is of no concern.” Here, the Jew is even unworthy of a history as a people.”
 
Again, “made to move” is unjustified. Obviously, as stupid and offensive as the comment is, it is precisely for historical reasons that Thomas mentioned Germany and Poland first, because a lot of the original Israeli settlers did come from those countries. But, again, the fact that she mentions America suggests that it is the Israeli government, not the Jewish people, that are the subjects of her hostility.
 
“Mr. Akin seems to be of the opinion that bigotry consists of an insult, but that the mind that reveals a complete calculation cannot be bigoted, even if that thought dismisses and disposes of an entire people. Utter nonsense.”
 
As I read him, Mr. Akin seems to be of the opinion that antisemitism (which is a subset of bigotry with a history all its own) involves hostility toward Jews. Nothing in Ms. Thomas’s diatribe suggests that she is hostile toward Jews in the United States, Germany, Poland or anywhere else. It’s what she considers the occupation of the Palestinian people that she objects to. Her views are stupid and offensive; I can’t see that they amount to hostility toward Jews per se.

Dov Pollock: Do you think there is no danger in the opposite direction, of a definition that is too wide rather than too narrow, and labels people antisemitic when in fact they have no hostility toward the Jewish people?
 
If you mean to imply that Jimmy might be looking to defend people like Bishop Williamson, Father Coughlin or Robert Sungenis, um, no, that would be wrong—that’s not what Jimmy is doing. OTOH, criticism of the state of Israel—an extreme form of which Thomas is engaging here—can prompt charges of antisemitism just as if criticizing Israel were the same as denying the Holocaust.

Steven,

The question is, why does Jimmy bend over so far to be “fair” to Ms. Thomas on such a tertiary point (she has her high profile defenders in the media - let them defend her lilly white words)?  Who, instead, is going to stand up for the victims of Ms. Thomas and her jaundiced attacks. Take - for example - the parallel universe reportage on the recent flotilla incident.  For at least 50 years, the Nation of Israel has been subject to her broadsides and castigations - until finally she let her guard down and showed us she’s as ugly interiorly as on the outside.  A good argument for burqas she is ...

Personally, I know that Jimmy is a meticulously fair person and commentator - in this case I think his considerably talents and attention should have been directed elsewhere…

“The question is, why does Jimmy bend over so far to be “fair” to Ms. Thomas on such a tertiary point?”
 
Because that’s what “fairness” means: being fair to both your friend and your enemy as well as to everyone in between. If you’re only “fair” to your friends, that’s not fairness. Indeed, it’s precisely how we treat our enemies that is the true test of our fairness.
 
And also because regardless who is being accused, how we use words like “antisemitism” matters. It’s the issue of when a charge of antisemitism is justified, rather than the secondary whether Ms. Thomas is an antisemite, that Jimmy seems to be concerned with here.
 
Incidentally, considering Thomas lost her job, I’m not sure the charge of antisemitism is all that “tertiary.”
 
”(she has her high profile defenders in the media - let them defend her lilly white words)”
 
Well, we don’t want to be found saying “They came for the media elites, and I said nothing, because I wasn’t a media elite,” do we? Right now I wonder how “many high-profile defenders in the media” Ms. Thomas has.
 
“Who, instead, is going to stand up for the victims of Ms. Thomas and her jaundiced attacks. Take - for example - the parallel universe reportage on the recent flotilla incident.  For at least 50 years, the Nation of Israel has been subject to her broadsides and castigations”
 
I wouldn’t be surprised if Jimmy agrees with you (I haven’t specifically discussed it with him). Jimmy writes about a lot of things and I don’t think there’s much point in criticizing him over writing about one thing because he hasn’t written about something else.
 
”- until finally she let her guard down and showed us she’s as ugly interiorly as on the outside.  A good argument for burqas she is ...”
 
Friend, forgive me, but this is unworthy of a Christian. On more than one level, actually.
 
“Personally, I know that Jimmy is a meticulously fair person and commentator - in this case I think his considerably talents and attention should have been directed elsewhere…”
 
I’m glad we agree on Jimmy’s meticulous fairness. As to where his talents and attention should be directed, to borrow a page from C. S. Lewis (who was ringing a change on Pope), the proper study of mankind is everything. And, again, how we use words like antisemitism does matter.

All these Israeli shills not withstanding all the planed control of the internet by using paid and volunteer pro Israeli posters is not going to work anymore.

the world knows that you are liars and the world knows that you are NOT the decedents of Abraham, Isac and Jacob Israel.

The world Knows you are as Jesus said a synagog of satan.

The world knows that"you are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. he was a murderer from the beginning , and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.when he speaketh a lie , he speaketh of his own;for he is a liar and the father of it.” john 8 44

You have gone to far and your time is coming to an end.

“Friend, forgive me, but this is unworthy of a Christian. On more than one level, actually.”

Forgive my excessive schadenfreude - but Ms. Thomas’ retirement (remember - she wasn’t fired - she chose to slink away in shame) is truly a “Ding! Dong! moment. I’ve lived most of my adult life under the yoke of the monolithic liberal elite media - as part of a culture spoon-fed liberal gruel by the likes of Ms. Thomas. I can’t help but rejoice when her judgment day comes a few hours early!!  Her disfigurement is truly moral - not physical ...

I do not defend Zionism. I understand why it exists however. I’ve made the point that both Jews and Arabas are mixed peoples and that the land was promised to Abraham’s descendents which includes offspring of at least 8 sons. Kinship analysis of the marriage pattern of Abraham’s people (using data from Genesis) reveals that Isaac himself had 3 sons.

“I don’t see how that would be possible the genealogy in the bible doesn’t
have enough woman mentioned to trace it.”  By using kinship analysis we are able to factor the 2 wives of each of these rulers back into the picture. One wife was a half-sister and the other was a patrilineal parallel cousin.  The cousin bride named her first-born son after her father. That is why we have Lamech the Elder and Lamech the Younger, Joktan the Elder and Joktan the Younger, Esau the Elder and Esau the Younger, etc.

I have no argument with Jews being former residents of Judah, the Southern Kingdom. As Abraham’s Horite people held territory from Judah to Jordan it is likely that those Jews who were taken from Judah have legitimate land claims.

Who was Judah’s mother? Leah
Judah’s birth right is traced through Tamar to David of Bethlehem.

Birthright is constantly overthrown in Scripture with God establishing His choice (usually the younger son, not the oldest) as ruler.  It is a pattern throughout Genesis.  Abraham was the youngest of Terah’s 3 sons.

The late Hannah Arendt, a distinguished Jewish philosopher, would have agreed with your analysis here. If the term “anti-Semite” is reduced to meaning anyone who simply states a personal dislike for Jews (or Israel), then we can’t distinguish between Franklin Roosevelt (who made several such comments in his career) and Adolf Hitler on this subject. Is that an intelligent thing to do?

Anti-Semitism is a paranoid philosophy usually aimed at the destruction of a people. Ethnic bias, on the other hand, is ugly—but it’s also common and is not usually part of a conspiratorial view of the world.

Helen Thomas is letting her extreme political bias (against Israel) show—but she doesn’t rank with the serious Jew-haters in history (I doubt she is one), nor should her comments be allowed to minimize the nature of their malevolence.

Dear Jimmy,

I always enjoy your articles, and though I believe you have given this situation much thought, I disagree with your conclusion. I would imagine, though I have no way of knowing, that you do not have family members who lost their lives in Hitler’s gas chambers. Please read the following article entitled “An Open Letter to Helen Thomas,” by Yoram Dori.

One gut wrenching quote: My mother was sent to Palestine from Germany in 1933 with the rise of the Nazis to power by her farseeing parents. The British blockade, which prevented Jews fleeing the Nazi horrors from entering, made it difficult for her and only the pretext of coming on a tourist visit enabled her to enter and remain alive. Her older sister, Sarah, her husband and three children aged 12, 10 and seven did not succeed in finding a way of coming to Palestine and were sent by the Nazis to Poland and from there, their journey to the Auschwitz gas chambers, was short. I understand that it is there that you wish to send me.

Article here: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=177668

Our words reveal what is really in our heart.

Well guys I can see I’m preaching to an Jewish choir so I will move on.

Robin you are probably right and “Jimmy” more than likely never was in a Nazi camp. where under 10,000,000 people died.

However he probably he was not in one of the Jewish Bolshevik death camps of the atheistic Jewish Bolsheviks who murdered more than 60,000,000 Christians either.

that will be my last word hear.

the world is awake and you time of deceiving everyone is over.

You know,
The vast majority of the Jews in Israel moved there after Helen was a grown woman.
Her comments are no different than someone in the 1800’s in north America saying that we should not be killing Native Americans and pushing them off the land they are currently on… Then being asked “Well, where should the settlers go?” and saying, “Where they came from, I don’t know, Germany, France, England or wherever.”
There is not a hint of ‘racism’  in that statement… The settlers LITERALLY come from there.
Not their great-great-great grandparents, but they actually left their home country, boarded a boat, went somewhere else and said ‘MINE, now all you other people get out of here.”
History would have shown such a statement to be the morally correct, if not realistic thinking to have on the subject..

I’m Irish… My ancestors were pushed off their land by the English. Can I just show up in Ireland 3 generations and a hundred plus years later, walk up to a house with a English sounding name on the mailbox and say:
“This is my land, Zorgot the Druid said that this was to be mine for all eternity, now GET OUT. Oh, you don’t like it? You are anti-Irish, you hate Irish people.”

This is the crux of the issue with Israel, it was created in living memory in a land that already had people living there. Having issues with the way a government made up of mostly first generation immigrants treats people who were already living there is not anti-Semitism.

Also, I find it offensive that people act like Israel, who has people of every faith and race is instead somehow the whole embodiment of a religion and that none other count….. 
Even worse, Helen is a Semite… Idiots.

I am really appalled that many here suggest some sort of collective guilt or origin.  THIS is racism!

Whomever was born in the state of Israel, Jewish or not, has it as his homeland.  Period.

It is immaterial to any person born on that land whether his bloodline can be traced to Abraham or where his ancestors came from.

To suggest that people need to have their bloodline or family history to be examined in order to determine his birthright to inhabit the land he was born in is not unlike the Nazis did.

Both the so-called Palestinians and the Israelis have the same right to live in the state of Israel.  The fact that both sides kill each other out of abject racism, indeed both sides hold genocide as their goal, is an immeasurable catastrophe to both religions in particular and religions in general.

I for myself take no side.  Both are dead wrong in their claims and in their actions.

American Catholics should try to be Catholic first and American second.

If you watch the video, the 2nd or 3rd question is, “Should the JEWS go back to Germany?” It was NOT “Should Israeli citizens go back to Germany?” If you don’t want to call her response anti-semitic because Thomas is a semite, fine. But you can’t argue that this was anything but anti-Jewish. For her to suggest that Jews should go back to the land that sought to exterminate them is appalling. It is bigoted. If you cannot see that, then you have allowed your politics or your personal opinions to negate your human decency.

I am not a Zionist, but I’d like to think that I am a compassionate human being.

Jimmy, you make a great point; how can a Semite be anti-Semitic? I read one comment that said telling someone to “go home” was the equivalent of “ethnic cleansing”. I think you really can’t judge someone until their intent is known. Similarly, words mean different things to different people and you can’t have an honest debate without defining the terms.

The fact that Ms. Thomas is of Semite origin does not make her immune to antisemitism.  Or were not the Jewish guards in concentration camps (“kapo”) and ghettos (“Judendienstordnung”) Nazis, even if they ended up in the gas chambers as well?

“Jimmy, you make a great point; how can a Semite be anti-Semitic?”
 
For the record, Jimmy’s post does not say this. Jimmy uses the term “anti-Semitism” in its historical and accepted form, meaning hostility toward Jews. The etymological ambiguities are noted parenthetically noted in his post, but he absolutely does not suggest that “Semites” are exempt by definition from the charge of anti-Semitism. Usage, in this case combined with etiology, defines meaning and trumps etymology.

Augustine,

It’s very easy to sit back in your comfy couch, and say “both sides are bad, I would never behave that way.”

You state “Both the so-called Palestinians and the Israelis have the same right to live in the state of Israel.”  Can it be that you are unaware that Hamas has as it’s own purpose statement to “obliterate Israel.”  A statement openly made by Yunis al-Astal, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, to kill “the dogs” and to get rid of “the murderers” carrying out the decisions of the Jews.”

You stated “I for myself take no side.”  That is a luxury you have, since no one is launching grenades at you, or sending suicide bombers into your childrens schools.

The land of Caana/Israel/Palestine/Israel (yes, I skipped several in between) has long been frought with war and violence.  Many country’s have had their boarders determined by the outcome of war.  And so it was with the reinstated Israel in the 1960’s.
And, just like anyone else, the State of Isreal has the right to defend itself from those who wish to “obliterate them from the face of the earth.”

Marty,

Whatever horrors that one goes through, one still has to make moral decisions in one’s defense.  Both the Israeli state and the Palestinians and their supporters have made immoral decisions. 

It’s not a luxury, it’s everyone’s duty to refuse to support either of these murderous, genocidal factions.

Whoa. Augustine, I agree that Israel deserves to be criticized for immoral acts just like the Palestinians, but there’s a difference between equal-opportunity criticism and drawing moral equivalencies, to say nothing of throwing around words like “genocidal” which I don’t think are warranted for at least one faction. The Palestinians have rights that Israel has trampled, and Israel should be held accountable to that. That doesn’t amount to “genocide.”

Hi, Steven.

The Israeli military have target Palestinian civilian populations as a matter of fact, it’s set up a blockade that affects primarily the civilian population.  It has done everything in its power to corral, akin to the Warsaw ghetto, the Palestinian population in Gaza and in the West bank.  If these are not actions amounting to genocide, I don’t know what isn’t, short of pogroms.  But does it really need to be that overt to be considered genocide?  Do the means really matter when the destruction of a whole population is carried out?

I hate the UN in general, but there was a time when it served a good purpose.  In 1948, it defined genocide to include “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”  Isn’t it what the Israeli state has been doing to the Palestinian population?  Unfortunately, Stalin managed to add an exclusion for political groups, but does it mean that Israeli troops are not committing genocide when bombing Hammas camps in Lebanon?

I used to be sympathetic to Israel, especially because they are often painted as the only bad ones.  But as a Catholic I have to look at its actions with eyes aiming at eternity and, from this point of view, at least through my feeble and sinful eyes, both sides are atrocious.

First, the argument that Thomas can’t be antisemetic because she is Lebanese is frankly stupid, unoriginal, and worthy of an elementary schpol debater. The word was coined to refer to hatred of Jews, not Arabs.

The bottom line is that Thomas has acknowledged her mistake whether she is sincere or not. She has had to resign. She has been impaled on her own petard. She is the author of her own disgrace. I am convinced she was always antiJewish masquerading as an ethical person. Hrumph! I for one am glad for her shame. Call it freudenschade but this is karma!

All these wackjobs slandering Helen Thomas as an “anti-Semite” like all the Judeo-Masons have been doing for centuries are sure doing a great job at impersonating Al Sharpton.

Gee Ted,

I wasn’t aware that Judeo-Masons had been slandering Helen Thomas for centuries. The woman looks bad (really, really bad) but now that I know that she’s that hundreds of years old, she’s remarkably well preserved.

Don’t you pay no mind to anyone calling you a conspiracy theorist or a wackjob.

Zionism is a racist blood and soil ideology for some Jews, like Nazism was for some Germans. If Ms Thomas hates Zionism, maybe it’s because it has, along with Islam, made a mess of the Middle East, inclding Lebanon. The commentator on this board who are sooo pro-Zionist ought to read some histories critical of Zionism from Jewish and Christian viewpoints, so they can understand the horrible thing they are supporting.

Well, it has been proved by some genetic studies made in Israel that only very small percentage of Israel’s Jewish population are descendants of ‘real Jews’ or so called Sephardic Jews. They are almost gone now. All the rest are ‘Jews’ from central Europe or rather descendants of 9th century converts to Judaism…from Turkey. They are called Khazars see link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Conversion_to_Judaism_and_relations_with_world_Jewry

Well, we all hear how dreadfull Holocaust was, and indeed it is the truth, however, when I think that the same Israel have no second thought about making their own ‘concentration camp’ in Gaza strip for Palestynians I think we should admire this woman who being old and frail had a guts to tell what is true.

Praise for Jimmy Akin’s balanced review of this unfortunate occurence.  Helen Thomas has been the best thing that ever happened to the White House Press Corps.  The others, for the most part, feed whoever is holding the news conference, soft ball questions, and in the case of Fox News, unabashed praise.  Helen Thomas has been direct, and her questions thoughtful.  Has Catholics, we should be unilaterally opposed to spending trillions of dollars on two wars against two nations who have never done anything to us.  Helen Thomas was opposed to those wars.  Many of you do not understand the dynamics in the region.  Helen Thomas does.  She praised Hezbollah.  So, do I.  Hezbollah was responsible for aiding Catholics in southern Lebanon, after Israel’s war of agreesion against Lebanon recently.  Catholics openly thanked Hezbollah and their leader, Hassan Nasrallah after Israel’s viscious attack on Lebanon.  Catholics in Bethlehem were asked by a US reporter for a major network, if the wall that the Isrealis built protected them from the Arabs.  Expecting a glowing pronouncement in thanks to Israel for the wall, the Catholic commented that it was the Israelis who were the problem.  I used to be a blind supporter of Israel,  until they attacked the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 American sailors, and wounding 172, on June 8th, 1967.  Then, I read two books by former Israeli Mossad case officer, Victor Ostrovsky. In the books, By Way of Deception, and The Other Side of Deception.  Ultimately, it was the way that the Holy Mother Church was treated by the Jews in Europe.  These are two separate incidents, I believe a year, or, two apart.  In one, Catholics erected a cross near one of the concentration camps.  The Jews had a hissy fit.  Finally, the Holy Father ordered the cross removed.  In another, a group of nuns prepared a house near another concentration camp for prayer.  Again, the European Jews went crazy, and the Holy Father backed down.  I was incensed.  While it is reported that 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust, over 5 million NON-Jews were exterminated, as well, including many Catholic priests, Catholic nuns, and other Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, the famous Lutheran minister who penned “then they came for me”, plus others.  The Jews, while suffering greatly in numbers, did not suffer the most as far as population numbers.  Nearly the entire Romani people of Europe were liquidated by the Nazis.  However, while I am forced to build and to fund Jewish Holocaust memorials, through my tax dollars, there is no mention at most, if not all of these other 5 million.  We must endure a Menorrah erected for the Jewish holiday of Chanukah, on public lands across from the White House, but we are denied a Nativity scene, or, a cross for Christmas.  A federal judge went so far as to rule that a Menorrah is not a religious symbol.  How insane.  Finally, most of you make a mistake due to your lack of knowledge on the matter.  You think that Jews are monolithic, that they all think alike, that they all are Zionists, that they all are war mongerers.  That is not true.  Jews protest for peace in Israel, it is only the Likud party which is comprised of war mongerers who keep provoking the Palestinians so that there will be means to keep them in power and in the money, much like some of our Democrats, and almost all of our Republicans have done to stay in power after 9/11 by attacking two nations, Iraq and Afghanistan, who never did a thing to us.  It is the plea to “keep us in office, we know how to fight terror.”  Works here, works in Israel for the Likud Party.  Do you even know that there is a difference in Judaism, the religion, and Zionism, the land movement?  Have any of you ever heard of Rabbi Dovid Weiss?  Become familiar with him and this teachings.  Many, many Rabbi Dovid Weiss videos on YOUTUBE.  He and other Orthodox Jews demonstrate against the number one, and most influential Jewish Lobby in the US, AIPAC, the American Israel Political Action Committee.  They say that Jews living in the US should be thankful that a country has given them haven, and to not try to inflence, or, control the government and policy of the country, as the Zionists who live here in America do.  Rabbi Weiss has gone to Iran and elsewhere to speak.  The man is holy, he is thoughtful, and he is right.  http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Dovid+Weiss&aq=f If I knew where to send Helen Thomas a big THANK YOU card for all her years of service, and a bunch of roses, I would do it in a minute.  Some of you, like many Jews and evangelicals do not understand that God’s Covenant with the Jews was broken, and that He, also, said that all bets are off if you break my covenant.  Some of my evangelical friends, a doctor, in particular, believes that the covenant was to bring forth Jesus through the line of Abraham, and that when Jesus died on the cross, that the covenant expired.  I don’t know, I don’t argue the bible.  I am very unhappy with the Church for not addressing the issue of torture of Iraqis, who never did a thing to us, to the use of their children in that torture including rape, and the murder of these innocent people at the hads of your troops.  Did you even know, I suspect that you do not care, that the #2 man in Iraq, under President Saddam Hussein was a CATHOLIC?  I love the man as a brother in Christ and for his spirt.

Steve,

I think you were basically okay until you described Zionism as “the horrible thing they are supporting.”  Of the many Jews I know, not one defines “Zionism” as more than the right of the Jewish people to continue to live in Israel and the right to defend their country from those who would destroy it and/or them.  I don’t see a problem with that.  I know there are Jews who have in the past or currently do conceive of Zionism in a secular, quasi-messianic kind of way (which is clearly unacceptable and deeply erroneous) -  but I doubt very much that they are the majority.

“John Smith” and “Joanna”-  would it be too much to ask you to please go back to Maurice Pinay’s blog or Michael Hoffman’s site now?  I know that “Khazar” line is a favorite with anti-Semites like them.  But that kind of extremist propaganda and pseudo-science isn’t going to sell here.

Just a few pieces of information I found:

Origins and Prehistory of the Khazars
(http://www.khazarsword.com/index.php?page=2&id=23)
“Some have speculated that Ashkenazic Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars, but no genealogical records exist of Khazar ancestry to today’s Jews. Since Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of world Jewry, such speculation is often held in conjunction with the belief that modern day Jews are not the true descendants of the Ancient Israelites, and that contemporary Jewry has no rightful claim to the land of the State of Israel. This thesis began to gain popularity among the Holocaust denial movement during the 20th century, especially after the establishment of Israel in 1948. It is also popular among groups such as the Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others who claim Israelite descent and seek to downplay the connection between the Jewish people and their Israelite ancestors.”

“In the 1970s and 80s the Khazar theory was also advanced used by some Russian chauvinist antisemites, particularly the historian Lev Gumilyov, who portrayed “Judeo-Khazars” as having repeatedly sabotaged Russia’s development since the 7th century.

According to Bernard Lewis:  This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where the Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics.”

Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.

A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that “The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.” . Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world. Contradicting the “mongrel” theory, DNA demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the last 3000 years than found in other populations.
“The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism.”

Morever, “The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries.” Id. And another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world’s Jewish communities are closely related to Syrians and Palestinians, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.

This study found that “The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.”, as does the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi population. So although Khazars could possibly have been absorbed into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jews.

DNA analysis further determined that modern Jews of the priesthood tribe—or “Cohanim”—share a common ancestor in Israel dating back about 3000 years, 1700 years older than the Khazar conversion to Judaism. This result is consistent for all Jewish populations around the world.

“Using a combination of molecular genetics and mathematical analysis, the scientists arrived at an estimated date for the most recent common ancestor of contemporary Cohanim. According to this analysis, the common ancestor lived between the Exodus (approx. 1000 B.C.E) and the destruction of the first Temple (586 B.C.E.), consistent with the biblical account. Similar results were obtained based on analysis of either Sephardi or Ashkenzi communities, confirming the ancestral link of the two communities which had been separated for more than 500 years.” “To date the original high priest, the research team used a formula based on a commonly accepted mutation rate. This formula yieded some 106 generations for both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, or between 2,650 and 3,180 years, depending on whether a generation is counted as 25 or 30 years.”

http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/k/Khazars.htm
In an age of genetic research and DNA we have conclusive knowledge and proof as to whether Jews, Ashkenazic or Sepharadic, born in North America or Russia or Ethiopia or Yemen, make up a distinctive people traceable back to their roots in the land of Israel.

‘Haplotypes

A haplotype is a set of closely linked genetic markers present on one chromosome, which tend to be inherited together.

Med is the most common haplotype among Jewish peoples. It is believed to have originated in the Middle East because the greatest concentrations of the Med haplotype are found among the people who live there today. It is shared by other people around the Mediterranean Basin (hence, the name). It may have been spread by farmers moving to new lands, by sea-going traders or both.

4s is the second most frequent haplotype in Jewish populations. It may have originated in East Africa and have been spread north along the Nile before entering Palestine.

Virtually all Jews came from the Middle East as evidenced by the clustering of their Y chromosomal haplotypes between Jewish groups and between Jews and non-Jewish Middle Easterners.

The existence of a priestly line of males (“Kohanim”) is shown as a distinctive set of genetic markers on the father-to-son transmitted Y chromosome. Limited variation of these markers among Kohanim males is compatible with a 3300-year-old origin in a single male or group of related males, possibly from the family of Aaron.’

source: http://web.archive.org/web/20070413074854/http://www.med.nyu.edu/pediatrics/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html as well as any and all scientific studies)  Also quoted from: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=209110&highlight=Israel

Steve Dalton -  (continuing from two posts above):  For example, on what Jews typically mean by “Zionism”:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Zionism_Is_Not_Racism.html

http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_definitions.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=zionism

Just doesn’t sound all that evil to me.

You’re spot on Jimmy, and people need to learn to distinguish between Judaism and Zionism.

Franciscan, read the “Zionist Connection” by “Alfred J Lilenthal.” He shows that Zionism is racist, socialistic, and anti-God. And if Zioism isn’t racism, why did the Zionists collaborate with the Nazis until 192?

Correction: The Zionist collaborated with the Nazis until 1942. And why not? They were both racist!

Jimmy, you are absolutely correct. Palestinians Christians are persecuted by Israeli occupants daily. If Jewish emigrants want to live peaceably and with tolerance in Palestine - then great. But if not, then one could reasonably hold the view that it would be better if they had not emigrated.
We have many Jewish temples in America. As a Roman Catholic I believe that Catholicism is the intended fulfillment of the Jewish heritage we as Christians share. I have no problem living with Jews or people of other religions, so long as they too live peaceably and tolerantly in our society. However, if Jews, Muslims or Catholics for that matter began as a matter of course attacking those of another religion, I and others could reasonably hold the view that it would be better if they lived somewhere else.

Well, this is a huge thread and I’m not reading all of it. 

But that said, I think Jimmy’s point is 1) incorrect but 2) not as blatantly and self-evidently incorrect as some people seem to think.

If Jewish settlement in Palestine were only a product of Zionism and the immigration of foreign persons to a land entirely foreign to them, I think Jimmy’s point would be entirely accurate.  Thomas’s comments would constitute displeasure with an arbitrary historical event that has had conflicting results.

But that’s not the case: the Jewish people are more or less indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.  (The migration of the Jews from wherever else in the region they might have originated is essentially pre-historical, and frankly just shouldn’t count in this consideration.)  A people has a right, qua being a people, to live in their ancestral homeland.  Alleging that people have no right to live in such a place seems to constitute an attack on the people themselves. 

So the statements do appear to constitute animosity towards the Jewish people, insomuch as they constitute opposition to the Jewish people living in a place in which they have a right to reside.  It’s not the most virulently anti-Semitic thing one could say, but it probably qualifies under the technical definition.

“Go back where you came from” sounds almost reasonable, in a certain perspective. Rude, but not fundamentally illogical.

Then you realize that any jew who moved to “Palestine” before the formation of the state of Israel would now be _at least_ 62 years old. And that’s if they were a newborn baby at the time, and went the day before statehood. For most of the population, “where you came from” is…Israel.

Even if one concedes the demand as morally acceptable, it’s simply illogical, as it would be if the US government were to tell Jimmy or myself to go back where we came from. We came from _here_. We have as much right to be here as anyone else, and frankly more than a lot. And that’s without the need to go any further into history than our own births, or any further into justice than what household pets can understand.

Many comments on this article, especially the early ones, demonstrate the dangers of feeling without thinking, or with believing that you’ve “thought about it enough”, and no longer need to give proper consideration to a viewpoint that SEEMS wrong on a first reading.

People have so much faith in their own intellect, or the books they read in college, or that one thing Grandpa told me that one time.

That’s the same attitude that allows racism to exist in the first place.

@Matt,

Please stop trying to inject reason, logic and perspective into this thread.  It belongs to the trolls now ...  At least, it is instructive to be reminded that people who spout phrases like “jewish bolshevism” and “judeo-masons” really exist…

I wonder, would the author think it acceptable if Ms. Thomas were to say that African-Americans should get the hell out of the United States and move back to Africa?

I don’t recall that Africans came to America and set up a state against the will of its inhabitants.  Maybe you meant to say “I wonder, would the author think it acceptable if Ms. Thomas were to say that Euro-Americans should get the hell out of the United States and move back to Europe?”  I suspect that there are a lot of American Indians (and their sympathizers) who would think that would be just fine.

A people has a right, qua being a people, to live in their ancestral homeland.

So Palestinian refugees (many of whom, by the way, are descendants of Jews who converted to Islam and Christianity) have the right to live in *their* ancestral homeland, from which they fled in 1948?

And in this case she specifically named two countries- Germany and Poland- countries where Jews and she means Jews should go. Countries where they were hunted down and exterminated because they were not deemed fit not only to live in their homes but anywhere else in the world.

Because, as we all know, pogroms are still carried out on a regular basis in Germany and Poland, while Jews enjoy complete safety in Israel.

First, I think that Jimmy is confusing “evidence” with “proof.”  While Ms. Thomas’s statement does not prove anti-Semitism (I refuse to play the irrelevant pedantic games favored by those who point out she is a semite), it is probative of it.  But it is probably prudent and charitable to not rush to such a conclusion without more evidence. 

In any case, I’m perfectly content to stick with “hateful,” “offensive,” “mean,” “venomous,” “outrageous,” partisan,” “mean,” “rude,” and “unpleasant.”  And did I mention “mean”?

Seamus:
Of course pogroms are not carried out. However, antisemitism is a significant problem in both of those countries, and many parts of Europe. Jews are under attack in those places.  It underscores the need for an Israel.

Do you honestly think it’s appropriate for Jews to return to a country where their friends neighbours and countrymen attempted to exterminate them? Where family was tortured and murdered? Many Jews who weren’t part of the Holocaust can’t bring themselves to go to those countries even for business or tourism, let alone live there. For those who survived, the memories are too painful.

Is it appropriate to advocate that African Americans go back to Africa?

Living in Israel presents many challenges for Jews but being persecuted,being marked for genocide,hunted down, and murdered by Israelis are not among them.

Everyone here should go to the Rabbi’s website, the one that first posted the video of Thomas making the comments we are discussing. This Rabbi has received TWENTY-FIVE THOUSAND hate filled e-mails as a result. Many contain death threats, along with praise for Thomas. He has posted several. 

http://www.rabbilive.com/RabbiLIVE/Home.html

Steve Dalton,

I think it was clear that I was focusing on the present, not Zionism’s past and genesis.  I already acknowledged that there are real problems there (in the past).  I’m talking about modern Zionism and people who consider themselves “Zionists” *today*.  I’m guessing it’s unlikely you personally know many Jews and even less likely that you’ve had much or any serious discussion with them about Zionism.  Conversely, I do and I have.
 
Are there some Jews out there who follow and promote more of an “old-school” Zionism?  I’m sure there are -  but after dozens of face to face discussions with real, live Jews, I have yet to actually meet one. It’s a mistake to think that most people who describe themselves as “Zionists” are espousing what you’re talking about.  And as such, it’s a mistake to broadly condemn “Zionists” as one homogenous monolith.

I react the same way to people who go on and on about Judeo-Masonic conspiracies and how evil Masons are.  Are there serious problems with the history of Masonry?  Yes.  Can a Catholic be a Mason?  No.  But are all, most or even a great number of Masons trying to destroy the Catholic Church?  No.  That’s conspiratorial paranoia.

Zionism is far less homogenous and organized than Masonry.  One can be a Zionist without belonging to a Zionist lodge, or undergoing any kind of initiation process.  It just isn’t a set group and belief system as you seem to think.  I see no serious problem with a Catholic describing himself as “Zionist” (especially if they are ethnically Jewish) if Zionism is defined in the simple, limited way it is commonly used today (and I gave links to the common usage – which you ignored).

As to Lilenthal, after reading some background information about him, it seems plain enough that he was widely acknowledged as a pretty extreme partisan on issues related to Israel.  That’s not to dismiss him completely (I think that would be going too far based on my knowledge level at this point), but the way you seem to lean on him here as though his presentation of history is the gold standard that totally settles the issue strongly suggests certain things about your leanings.  People with strong opinions and agendas often seek out and find what they want to find in order to confirm their beliefs.

After I wrote the last comment, I decided to Google the name Steve Dalton just out of curiosity.  Here you are having multiple friendly discussions with anti-Jewish extremist Maurice Pinay, like this one in the comments box for his article on how Jews today aren’t really Jews at all.

http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2007/11/hebrew-catholics-see-khazar-talmudists.html

Here are a couple more.

http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2007/09/more-on-benedicts-holocaust-prostration.html

http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2007/12/vatican-ii-kabbalist-sage-rabbi-abraham.html

Here you are in the comments box of the website for another (somewhat less) anti-Jewish extremist Robert Sungenis, saying that he’s “right on the money” about “the Jews”:

http://bellarmineforum.xanga.com/650443158/question-58—-mark-shea-says-jews-still-have-a-covenant-with-god/

http://web.archive.org/web/20061230130731/http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/2006/qa-nov-06.htm

And here you are recommending Maurice Pinay in another comments box, too:

http://cumbey.blogspot.com/2007/08/dr-stanley-monteith-will-be-my.html

I found those in just a couple of minutes.  Here are a few of your quotes:

“Take down the menorahs, one at a time. Keep them out of the public square, and put them back iuaJewish neighbourhoods were vthey belong!”

“It just goes to show you, you can’t trust a so-called Jewish convert unless he denounces the ‘traditions of the elders’ just like Christ and the apostles did.”

“These folks are shameless hypocrites who know what the Jews are really like, and they know the power the Jews wield in our country, but they are willing to sell their souls to avoid the Jewish foot on the neck, or to procure some wealth or power in our Jewish dominated society.”

“Bob [Sungenis], you have been the target of a massive campaign by the Jewish establishment and their shabbat goys to destroy your apostolate and your reputation. Don’t lose heart. I know it must be infuriating when some of your enemies were your former co-workers at CAI. Well, our Lord had Judas, and you had them. But be of good cheer. Your enemies will soon be snared by their own crookedness, and their Jewish handlers will throw them to the dogs.”
.

So I’m not inclined to discuss anything further with you.  If what you say about your ethnic history is actually true (Sephardic Marrano), you seem to be suffering from some kind of terribly misplaced ethnic guilt and self-hatred.  You can promote that with “Joan”  and “John Smith” over at Pinay’s blog or Michael Hoffman’s site.  But people here aren’t likely to buy.  Sincerely, it’s really sad and disturbing to see.

Of course pogroms are not carried out. However, antisemitism is a significant problem in both of those countries, and many parts of Europe. Jews are under attack in those places.

Much more than they are under attack in Israel, I’m sure.  Because Hamas rockets and suicide bombers are an almost everday occurrence in “those countries, and many parts of Europe,” right?

Anyone who thinks that the State of Israel contributes to the safety of Jews is letting wishful thinking and ideological preconceptions blind them to the historical reality of the past 60 years.

Do you honestly think it’s appropriate for Jews to return to a country where their friends neighbours and countrymen attempted to exterminate them? Where family was tortured and murdered? Many Jews who weren’t part of the Holocaust can’t bring themselves to go to those countries even for business or tourism, let alone live there. For those who survived, the memories are too painful.

I take it you are unaware of how the Jewish community in Germany is thriving (and, according to Rabbi Ehrenburg of the Orthodox Jewish community in Berlin, is the only Jewish community in Europe that is actually growing:  http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article353306/Rabbiner_Ehrenberg_Orthodoxes_juedisches_Leben_ist_wieder_lebendig_in_Berlin.html).

Is it appropriate to advocate that African Americans go back to Africa?

As I already explained (11:49 am EDT), this analogy doesn’t work, because African Americans didn’t come to America with the specific purpose of displacing the inhabitants and setting up their own state.  (In fact, they didn’t come voluntarily at all.)  But it wouldn’t be beyond the pale for American Indians (or their sympathizers) to tell Euro-Americans to go back to Europe.  The Sioux, I note, are refusing to accept the money that the U.S. government has offered them in compensation for having the Black Hills stolen from them, in violation of the Treaty of Fort Laramie.  Instead, they want their land back.  I’m sure they would want any Caucasians living there to “go home” to wherever their ancestors came from.

Matt wrote, ““Go back where you came from” sounds almost reasonable, in a certain perspective. Rude, but not fundamentally illogical.
Then you realize that any jew who moved to “Palestine” before the formation of the state of Israel would now be _at least_ 62 years old. And that’s if they were a newborn baby at the time, and went the day before statehood. For most of the population, “where you came from” is…Israel.
Even if one concedes the demand as morally acceptable, it’s simply illogical, as it would be if the US government were to tell Jimmy or myself to go back where we came from. We came from _here_. We have as much right to be here as anyone else, and frankly more than a lot. And that’s without the need to go any further into history than our own births, or any further into justice than what household pets can understand.”

This is such a simple but important point I hadn’t thought of initially.

Seamus,

I visited the Jewish community in Berlin two years ago. I think returning to Europe is a mistake. Jews may delude themselves as did German Jewry in the years before the war that their loyalty to Germany, their significant contributions to Germany, Germany civility and their long history in Germany cloaked them with protection. 

Noteworthy that you seemingly accept the lesser of two evils rather than rage against both.

Seamus

You wrote “As I already explained (11:49 am EDT), this analogy doesn’t work, because African Americans didn’t come to America with the specific purpose of displacing the inhabitants and setting up their own state.”

I can’t debate the apropriateness of the anology because I don’t accept your view that Jewry came to Palestine for the purpose of displacing others. 

Jews are an indigenous people. Even after the diaspora, there was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Other Jews returned to a land from which they wer driven out.

H.T. does not so much seem anti-semetic as she suffers from Strom Thrurman syndrom:  tounge outlives grey-matter. She misses the days people took her more seriously, so lobs explosive one-liners.

Jews are an indigenous people. Even after the diaspora, there was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Other Jews returned to a land from which they wer[e] driven out.

And other Jews stayed in Palestine, converted to Christianity and/or Islam, adopted the Arabic language, and became the Palestinian Arabs, many of whom fled their homeland in 1948.  So are *they* to be permitted to return home, or does the fact that they are no longer share the Jewish religion make them ineligible to return after 60 years, while those who remained Jews (or at least didn’t convert to a non-Jewish religion, whether or not they actually practice Judaism) are entitled to return after 1,800 years?

Seamus wrote: “or does the fact that they are no longer share the Jewish religion make them ineligible to return after 60 years?”

No, the fact that they want to exterminate the Jews currently living there would make them ineligible.

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

http://www.gtr5.com/index.html

@ Chattaghost

First, let’s agree that everyone has the right to live in peace, and that genocide is a terrible evil.

Your point about the USS Liberty seems an odd point to make.  It was a casualty of war, and regrettable, yes.  However, it was deemed by the United States to have been a case of mistaken identity.  Isreal thought it was an imposter ship masqurading as an American.  The Liberty was told several times to leave the area it was in, because it was too close to the Saini Penninsula.  Contact btw the Isreali and US naval commanders mistakenly conveyed that there were no US ships within 100 miles of there.  The same boats that attacked the Liberty initially, went back to rescuethe 170 members of the crew remaining, once they were sure it was a US ship.

Now, since you brought it up…ARAB-PALESTINIAN TERROR GROUPS include

Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Fatah - Revolutionary Council
Fatah Tanzim
Force 17
Hamas
Hizballah
Jihad Group
Martyrs of al-Aqsa
Palestinian Authority (PA)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command

Al Quaida alone is responsible for 3000 American deaths on Sept. 11. “In 1998 this Arab-Islamic terror group conducted the bombings of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Tanzania that killed at least 301 persons and injured more than 5,000 others. It also claims to have shot down US helicopters and killed US servicemen in Somalia in 1993 and to have conducted three bombings that targeted US troops in Aden and Yemen in December 1992. It has been linked to several plans that were not carried out… to assassinate Pope John Paul II during his visit to Manila in late 1994, simultaneous bombings of the US and Israeli Embassies in Manila and other Asian capitals in late 1994, the midair bombing of a dozen US trans-Pacific flights in 1995, and a plot to kill President Clinton during a visit to the Philippines in early 1995.”

Let me ask you, do you believe the United States has a right (and even a moral duty) to protect it’s innocent civilians?  If your answer is yes, then doesn’t Israel also have the same right?

No, the fact that they want to exterminate the Jews currently living there would make them ineligible.

Are you really making this claim about all Palestinian refugees and their descendants?  If so, you obviously have no problem with making gross ethnic generalizations.  One species in that genus is called anti-Semitism.

I visited the Jewish community in Berlin two years ago. I think returning to Europe is a mistake. Jews may delude themselves as did German Jewry in the years before the war that their loyalty to Germany, their significant contributions to Germany, Germany civility and their long history in Germany cloaked them with protection.

You really think that Jews in Europe are risking their safety by returning to Europe, more than they would be by moving to Israel?  Talk about fighting the last war.  That’s exactly the kind of thinking that led to the construction of the Maginot Line.

I can’t debate the apropriateness of the anology because I don’t accept your view that Jewry came to Palestine for the purpose of displacing others.

They certainly didn’t come for the purpose of being a minority within a largely Arab state.  They came with the purpose of being the dominant ethnic group in a land that was previously Arab.  That amounts to seeking to displace the Arabs as the rulers of that land.  (Similarly, to the extent that Aztlan nationalists talk about immigrating in such numbers to the Southwest U.S. as to make it primarily Hispanic and to “take back” the land taken from Mexico in 1848, they are seeking to displace the Anglos.)

Franciscan, I am a Catholic of Marrano Jewish descent. I do not indentify with the Jewish people because I am a Catholic and because the Jews as an ethnic and religious group have been active in slandering, libeling, and when it is in their power to do so, persecuting the church. The self-hating canard is typical of the smear that Jews and their knee-jerk philo-semitic lapdogs hurl at folks like me who dare question Jewish behavior and ideas. I do not believe Jews, as a group, should not be persecuted just because they are Jews. But, like any other ethnic or religious group that misbehaves, they should not be excluded from just criticism or punishment. Historically, the church has always used its influence to offer Jews shelter and protection. However, the church also used its influence to restrict Jewish influence and actions for it was aware of the Talmudic hatred that drove Jews to act against the people they lived among. For proof of these statements, I’d recommend that NCR readers get a hold of Newman’s “Jewish Inflence On Christian Reform Movements” and Elliot Horowitz’s “Reckless Rites”.

Poor Steve.  Willfully and woefully blind to how Marrano Jews came to “convert” to Catholicism.  And you speak of self hating.  Probably not a good idea to admit your ancestry. You might be targeted by those of your ilk who believe that you have be forever tainted by your Jewish blood and particles of DNA.

Jews persecuting the Catholic Church - what a laugh.

And you suggest that Jews should be persecuted. ouu write: “I do not believe Jews, as a group, should not be persecuted just because they are Jews. But, like any other ethnic or religious group that misbehaves”

Look up the definition of persecution. No one should be persecuted. Prosecuted, punished maybe. But inherant in the definition of persecution is that it is wrongful or unjust because it is based on ethnicity, religion, etc.

What kind of punishment or persecution did you have in mind for the Jews?

Sally, yor remarks are racist and condesending. Also, your knowlegde of Jewish/Christian history is minimal. Please read some real history books instead of the biased propaganda you’re used to reading so we can have an informed conversation.

Yes, Sally.  You must read the “real” history about “the Jews” that Steve wants you to read.  Steve’s history about “the Jews” is not biased or propaganda but it’s the “real” history because he’s investigated everything personally himself, he’s poured over all the original documentation and he knows it as a fact.  If only more people read “real” history they would realize that the Nazis were only looking out for the welfare of the German people and “the Jews” themselves and that “the Jews” weren’t really exterminated at all in Europe, in spite of how evil “the Jews” are. You’re obviously just an ignorant racist, Sally.  Now read the books Steve wants you to read and follow honest, unbiased commentators and historians like Maurice Pinay and Michael Hoffman so you’ll stop being a propagandist.

Steve Dalton - you said “Please read some real history books instead of the biased propaganda you’re used to reading so we can have an informed conversation.”

*WOW* talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Some of you are lacking perspective.  A little Rabbi Dovid Weiss, anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Rabbi+Dovid+Weiss&aq=f

Michael:
Sure enough if you’re intereted in listening to a lunatic. The guy’s a genuine crackpot and represents a small fringe group of so-called Orthodox Jews.

Christians who point to Neturei Karta (the link above) as back up for their opposition to Israel crack me up.  Orthodox, Chasidim et al that oppose the formation of Israel like Neturie Karta do so based on their belief THAT THE MESSIAH HAS NOT YET COME.  According to their beliefs, the Messiah will re-establish Israel .  So, this formation of Israel isn’t legit because he hasn’t come yet.

Not exactly a helpful line of argument for a Christian, unless he is first and foremost against Israel (Jews?)  and only a Christian secondarily.

_guess i’ve waited 2000 years as a Christian, and 3,000 years as an interested post-Christ Jew.  i can wait a little longer for this to flesh out. Sometimes there is no one answer available to us.  but forge on.

Simple logic for peace would support Helen Thomas’ statements. Whoever attacks should get out—whether Israel, Hamas, or whoever else such as the mysterious religious fundamentalists that want to separate boys from girls in NATO summer camps in Gaza. Israel is responsible for the recent attack on the peaceniks’ aid flotilla. As I see it, Jews and Palestinians are metaphorically in the same boat, and the peacenik aid flotilla bringing basics (food, clothing, and shelter), of humanity, is a symbol for both to share. Do you suppose that Helen Thomas could have meant that Israel should get out of Palestine but that Jews can stay? Palestine seems to be a homeland for refugees, immigrants, and illegal-aliens which both Jews and Palestinians are, and there are forces at work, including maybe the government of Israel, that are making shambles of their lives.

I must say I have been reading each and every response and sit in amazement that anyone could defend Helen’s comment and justify her intended hate! It was as obvious as the ridicule in her “Laugh” Stunning how the same people here that are defending her are in actuality Infidels who these people would slit their throats in a heartbeat.These monsters don’t tolerant anything that isn’t within their j’hadist ideas. Women are scum of the earth and their slaves.They can’t drive,date,be around men that aren’t of their family.Hide their faces and bodies and if raped must admit that they caused it somehow and spend time in prison and have some one beat them with a whip!Muslim Men are NEVER felons are they..they can rape pilage and it’s ok eh? They indoctrinate hate to their children from birth.Even their cartoons depict Jew’s as rats…scum of the earth..foul vermin! If you are gay and reading this..yes you..then you are to be murdered and not allowed to live! WOW Jews ACTUALLY ALLOW GAY PEOPLE to live among them in peace..Go ahead make excuses for these people.Their life that they lead is of their own making.If they truly wanted a better life they could just leave and go to..say to Saudi Arabis,Lebanon or Jordan..ooopps…oh no they can’t can they? Their fellow Arabs don’t want them stinking up their country and gladly send them money and arms to be their surrogates of hate and murder! Hmm…I guess I just use too much common sense over here and can’t wrap my head around your bigotry..unless like most liberals who are drama Queens and love Chaos..then there is your answer..Parse the truth and words,make up statistic but Common Sense wins everytime!

So, Jeanne (6-11-2010/4:51PM), what is your solution, more of the same? Seriously, what about Matthew 26:52: “Live by the sword, die by the sword”? There are other solutions besides war and using the military such as using police type solutions, not to be confused with the type of actions by the American cop Norman Schwarzkopf during the 1950-s in Iran who taught Savak how to torture and etc. There are other ways which are not so fatalistic and existential the saying “as all is fair in love and war”, or however that saying goes.

If you believe the Bible, Jews and Arabs and Palestinians are related. Family counselling is a big thing nowadays in the Catholic Church. I want both to stop fighting or go metaphorically to jail.

What a stupid argument: “arabs are semites there for they can’t be anti-semites…”
First, the term anti Semites is traditionally and historically EXCLUSIVELY: anti-Jewish, second it’s all in perception, Arabs think they are a supreme being (which is why they massacred the Africans in Sudan and in Chad, Kurds in Iraq and war against Persians, oppression on indigenous-Egyptians the Copts, and on indigenous N. Africans the Berbers… Arabism is racism!)

________________

That old racist (Lebanese) ARAB woman Helen Thomas’ ‘ethnic cleansing’ view reflects the ‘conflct of the middle east’ Arab racism & Islamic bigotry that is.

You have to thank that old Arab hag for being honest, at least, at her last days…

Take a good look at this “moderate” Arab and tell me it’s not about Arab racism.

The basic attitudes of the intolerant Goliath Arab Muslims world is that: ‘You Jews are “outsiders” here in the middle east!’ The Arab Palestinians who’s parents or grandparents came over from Arab land and occupy the Jews’ original homeland? they’re OK, they’re “home.”

Because the entire middle east is ‘Arab Muslim land’ all other non-Arab non-Muslim minorities are “outsiders” especially the Jews, Why? Because they’re neither Arab nor Muslim…

Now, let’s here some radical liberals defending the Arab Muslim bigotry with “occupation and poor palestinians” slogans.
The same radical liberals that couldn’t care less what the Islamic Palestine or Hezbollah have in store for them, exactly what kind of Islamic states are in line with liberals’ supposed claim for defending human rights, or even women’s rights?

I guess, that Palestinian crimes against humanity like torturing fellow “rivals,” honor killing epidemic and oppressing Christians are OK with liberals’ values.

Not to mention the total fear in totalitarian like “Palestine” for speaking out, unlike in democratic free Israel, there’s virtual no freedom of the press or speech.

That’s besides Palestinian & Hezbollah’s routinely horrindeous crimes like taking the lives of their civilians for no more as toys in their games of bloodshed, in use of war.

Mr. Goebbels said…

“Posted by J. Goebbels on Thursday, Jun 10, 2010 7:31 PM (EST):
Christians who point to Neturei Karta (the link above) as back up for their opposition to Israel crack me up.  Orthodox, Chasidim et al that oppose the formation of Israel like Neturie Karta do so based on their belief THAT THE MESSIAH HAS NOT YET COME.  According to their beliefs, the Messiah will re-establish Israel .  So, this formation of Israel isn’t legit because he hasn’t come yet.

Not exactly a helpful line of argument for a Christian, unless he is first and foremost against Israel (Jews?)  and only a Christian sec"ondarily. “

It is my understanding that Jews, in general, do not believe that Christ has come.  So, to say that Neturie Karta have beliefs that the Messiah has not yet come, is typical of common Jewish belief, is it not?

I have no problem with that.  I am of the belief that He has come, however, I am tolerant of the beleifs of others, in that regard.  I am not here on this earth to convert anyone to my Catholic beliefs.  I lead my life, and if it is an example to others, and they choose to ask me about msy core values, I will relate my beliefs to them. 

It does not matter that Rabbi Dovid Weiss, or, Sheik Hassan
Nasrallah believe differently than I do, I beleive them to be honorable men, and worthy of my respect.

Naturally, I would expect stooges for the Likud to attempt to discredit Rabby Dovid Weiss.  The Likud does not have my respect, nor, do I consider them honorable.

The Palestinian and the Jew lived in relative peace prior to 1948.  If those, on both sides, who gain either power, influence, or, money from the continued conflict are removed, by necessary means, then, it is possible for the region to heal and for a relative peace to prevail.

Your opinion my vary.

Mr. Ballou misses my point.  I’ve seen Christians try to use Neturie Karta and other Orthodox/Chasidim et al to bolster their claims that Israel is somehow illegitimate.  They say, basically, “see, even these Jews think Israel isn’t legitimate!”  But in order to do that, they ignore the REASON Neturie Karta and these others think Israel is illegitimate.  The reason they think Israel is illegitimate is because they believe the Messiah has not yet come! In their eyes, Israel can only be re-established when the Messiah comes.
 
This line of argument SHOULD be far more objectionable and difficult for a Christian to accept than accepting the legitimacy of the state of Israel.  But some Christians don’t seem to care.  To them, their ally is anyone who is opposed to Israel, regardless of the REASON they are opposed to Israel -  like, say, believing that the Messiah has not yet come.  My enemy’s enemy is my friend?  Nauseating.

And groups like Neturie Karta are fringe.  What Ballous is doing is like non-Catholics who point to Catholics for Choice as though that proves something about abortion.  All it proves is that some people have an agenda to find what they want to find and to promote whatever they want to promote no matter the cost.
 
And as far as how supposedly peaceful things were before 1948, another poster already mentioned the pogroms in Hebron in 1929 and Tiberias in 1938.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Tiberias_massacre

But the floor is Mr. Ballous -  I suspect he’ll insist on getting the last word like a good propagandist.  ;-)

I’m sure Jimmy Aiken never expected the outpouring of responses when he posted his article about Helen Thomas.  For those of us who are interested in the facts behind the Mid-East conflict, I recommend the posts by ‘B’ on June 6th, posted between 2 and 5:00PM, and those of Mr. Halaby posted on June 7th about the same time.  There is a background to the conflict most Americans are seemingly not aware of, and that is unfortunate.  I don’t blame them too much since most of what they see and hear in the media is usually very one-sided.  Israel is the only modern democratic state in history to actively pursue a policy of ethnic cleansing.  The number of Christians (most of whom are Palestinian) has decreased dramatically as life for non-Jewish citizens has been made progressively harder.  Crimes against humanity are crimes no matter who the victims or the perpetrators are.  Justice is an attribute of God Himself- the answer is simple - treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, as Jesus taught us. This is a lesson many people, including many Israelis, have yet to learn. Thsnks for posting the article Jim, I hope you didn’t catch too much flak over it.  God bless ~

Helen Thomas is wise. Basically all that she said amounts to a parable like the saying, “if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.” When asked where they should go, she didn’t say that they should go to the living room; she said something different instead that amounted to saying that they should go to a neighbors’ house. This is good sound advice if there is a domestic heated argument and if someone needs to cool off. Sounds like something that my mom would say if I got in a heated disagreement with my dad, but such words don’t sound racist or anti-Semitic. It just sounds like common sense. A person in authority might say the same thing like the police, a priest, or friend in a domestic violence situation. In this analogy, perhaps some neighbors wouldn’t like to get involved, or perhaps the neighbors aren’t liked. Perhaps that someone who is angry is even angry towards the neighbors. Jews might consider getting over the hatred of the holocaust just like most Americans and Vietnamese nowadays after the Vietnam War. I personally am astonished by the forgiving warm nature of the Vietnamese. Even though they are communist, I wish them the very best nowadays and would want to help them if I could. As for Germany and Poland, I have visited those countries, and I just think that they have bad and good people and things in their countries similar to America. I had some bad experiences, but I have a lot more in the U. S. A. Israel was suppose to be a utopia or paradise like the proletariat paradise of the Jewish dreamer Karl Marx, and perhaps these idealistic aspirations of Israel need to be worked on and thought out a little better to avoid violence if possible since Israel is suppose to be a paradise, isn’t it?.I always wanted to join a commune, but I don’t think that communes exist anymore.

Helen Thomas’ statement did explain her own words very well why she thought that Israel should get out of Palestine, and she said that it was due to the occupation. Lots of normal people are against occupations. In general, objecting to occupation is most certainly not racist nor anti-Semitic. I am sure that Israel is taking lessons from America on this subject and not just from Helen Thomas. America experiences objections to occupation all the time. We hear the Iraqis objecting to American occupation in Iraq. Some Europeans are still objecting to the American occupation in Europe after World War II. I’m sure that there is a very long list of people objecting to America’s occupations including the south west of the United States from Mexicans, Guantanamo Bay, Guam, and Porto Rico. Do we deserve the criticism? Is it racist? Are we suppose to care? These are legitimate questions, and, if Helen Thomas brings up the subject in reference to Israel, then it just means that she is in tune with everything. Her words were and are just food for thought for intelligent people.

Thomas did not tell Israelis to get out of Gaza or the West Bank, which are seen by some as occupied. That is not something with which I agree, but it is fair comment.  What she said to get out of Palestine meaning all of Israel. Israel holds membership in the United Nations.It is a legitimate country, although its borders are in dispute.  Telling Israelis to leave their own country, advocating the divestment of their country is antisemetic. Telling them to go back to countries that practised genocide gainst them is antisemetic. Arguably, Thomas is advocating ethnic cleansing.

More information debunking the extremist theory that modern-day Jews are supposedly not genetically related to ancient Jews:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0610/jewish_genetics.php3

Jews of European descent living on opposite sides of the globe are more closely related to each other than they are to their fellow countrymen, according to the largest study ever conducted of what it means genetically to be Jewish. Ashkenazim, the primary group descended from European Jews, are all as closely related as fourth or fifth cousins would be, the study found.

“Jews really are different from their non-Jewish neighbors,” said Dr. Harry Ostrer, a geneticist at the New York University Langone Medical Center, senior author of the new study appearing in the American Journal of Human Genetics.

They are not different enough to be considered a separate race as some experts have argued, he added, but definitely are a “distinct population” — the result, presumably, of cultural separation during thousands of years.

The study, which was conducted primarily to further medical knowledge of genetic diseases, rejected a highly controversial idea that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Khazars in eastern Europe who converted to Judaism — an idea that has recently been used in an attempt to discredit the idea that Jews belong in Israel because it is their historic homeland.

The study shows that there is “clearly a shared genetic common ancestry among geographically diverse populations consistent with oral tradition and culture ... and that traces back to the Middle East,” said geneticist Sarah A. Tishkoff of the University of Pennsylvania. “Jews have assimilated to some extent, but they clearly retain their common ancestry.”

Added Joe Berkofsky, a spokesman for the Jewish Federations of North America, “This finding in a way underscores what Jewish Federations believe and act upon through our central mission, which is to care for and protect Jews around the world, no matter where they are.”

Although the study sheds light on Jewish history — providing new information about the separation between North African and European Jews 2,500 years ago and the near extinction of European Jews in the Middle Ages — its major goal is to identify genes for many diseases that are more common in Jewish groups, such as breast cancer, Gaucher disease and Tay-Sachs.

The higher incidence of those diseases among “Abraham’s children” will allow scientists to more readily find genes that cause the illnesses and then extend that knowledge to the general population, said geneticist Gil Atzmon of Yeshiva University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine, first author of the paper.
The study examined 237 Jewish individuals from seven regions of the world, comparing them to 418 non-Jewish people from the same regions. All the Jewish subjects had all four grandparents from the same population.

The researchers studied about 160,000 sites across the entire genome, providing a great deal more information about the population than has ever been available.

Previous studies had found similar results by looking at smaller numbers of people and considering only blood groups, mitochondrial DNA (a type of DNA passed down by mothers) or Y chromosomes (passed down by fathers).

The Jewish people, according to archaeologists, originated in Babylon and Persia between the fourth and sixth centuries before the Common Era. The modern-day Jews most closely related to that original population are the Jews in Iran, Iraq and Syria, whose closest non-Jewish relatives are the Druze, Bedouins and Arabs of Gaza, the study found.

Sometime in that period, the Middle Eastern and European Jews diverged and the European branch began actively proselytizing for converts.

At the height of the Roman Empire, about 10 percent of the empire’s population was Jewish, although the bulk of them were converts. Some Khazar were also incorporated during this period.
“That explains why so many European and Syrian Jews have blue eyes and blond hair,” Ostrer says. It also explains another of the team’s findings — that the population most closely related genetically to European Jews are Italians.

The data also show what the researchers call a “bottleneck” in the Jewish population during the Middle Ages. The population of European Jews shrunk below 50,000 during that period because of disease, prejudice, anti-Semitic edicts and the Crusades, Atzmon said.

Afterwards, however, an easing of restrictions led to what is known as the “demographic miracle,” in which the Jewish population rose twice as fast as that of other Europeans, reaching more than 5 million by the 19th century.

“Her comment that “they should go home” is basically akin to ethnic cleansing.”

Only if you read “they” as “Jews” generally, rather than referencing the vast majority of the population of Israel that are either recent immigrants (largely from Europe and America) or the immediate descendants of the waves of foreign immigrants who engaged in Zionist migration to Palestine over the past century.

I think the author bravely makes a fair point in assessing what Thomas actually said.

Thomas is saying that all Israelis (or occupiers) should leave Israel (AKA Palestine).

I really don’t understand you argument. As I understand, you choose to interpret   her vitriolic rant as meaning that some Jews are more worthy of being allowed to stay in Israel than others and that as long as you allow some selected Jews to stay that its not ethnic cleansing?  Really give your head a shake.

Hitler also made distictions in the Jewish population allowing some to survive. It wa still genocide.

Thomas has proposed her own final solution for Israel’s Jews and unbelieveably you and your ilk condone it. How very unChristian of you.

Wow.  Straight to ad hominem attack and Godwin’s Law.  Nice.

kepunky

Straight to deflection. Seize on something tangential and tap dance backwards from the real issue.

kcpunky in the simplest of terms:

Godwin’s Law From Wikipedia
The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering GENOCIDE (emphasis added), propaganda, early 20th century eugenics (racial superiority) or other mainstays of Nazi Germany, nor, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances is appropriate. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

However, Godwin’s law itself can be abused, as a distraction, DIVERSION (emphasis added)or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent’s argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin’s law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[7]

This is how I understand what Helen Thomas said. The main problem has to do with what is very elementary and with something we begin to learn early in elementary and high school. The problem has to do with the big category of violence, destruction, domination, bullying, and occupation, in other words, with war mongering. War mongering is a culture. As far as I am concerned, any “culture-cleansing” against war mongering is okay, and it should not be confused with ethnic-cleansing. I don’t intend to pick on just Israel about its war mongering; so, please don’t accuse me of being one sided or biased about this anti-violence vitriolic rant of mine here in this particular blog. Furthermore, for those of us who have grown up with Jewish friends, with reading about the original hopes for a utopian and paradise-like Israel, and with reading about some interesting undertakings in Israel (ignoring whatever bad stuff), I personally have experienced and make a conceptual difference in my thinking between Israel and Jews, and I truly feel for the loss of innocence (or loss of innocent people) in Israel; ditto for Palestinians. So, what I am getting at is that the idea of sending war mongers back to Germany, to Poland, and to the U. S. A. to get them out of Israel and out of the Middle East might teach the war mongers humility; it is the same type of difference as between deporting Joran van der Sloot to Peru or to Aruba (understand the analogy?). Moreover, I believe that Helen Thomas knew that it was futile to argue over her conviction, not because it was wrong, but because it would fall on deaf ears and be a waste of time; she probably quit the White House as a referendum on President Obama’s change theme regarding opposing “business-as-usual” on many such subjects, not just with violence in the Middle East. I personally want real change, and we need people like Helen Thomas to do some metaphorical peacenik style saber rattling. Just stop the *&! violence please.

Patrick Bara

Let me take out my crayons and explain this in simple terms.

Thomas was not advocating removing one so-called wrongdoer (your anology is beyond ridiculous). She was advocating the nullification of the modern state of Israel- even as it existed in 1948 as it was accepted and endorsed by the United Nations. She doesnt accept (and apparently you don’t either) the very existence of an Israel.

There are many that think the US is a war monging nation (see the Great Satan).  Based on your rationale, it doesn’t deserve to exist either.

“Godwin’s Law From Wikipedia
The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering GENOCIDE (emphasis added)”

I don’t see that genocide is even a topic of discussion.  Question was whether the recent immigrants’ (who are mostly Jewish and largely from Europe and America, but that’s really irrelevant) right to Palestinian lands supersedes the right of those native Palestinian Arabs displaced by the 1947-48 uprising and not allowed to return to their lands.

Biff read my post at 10:50 on June 15 and those to which I was responding and you will see how genocide came up. We are on a very slippery slope when one advocates the removal of what some view as an undesireable population. Gehttos, reservations,segregation,  internment camps, ethnic cleansing,and genocide are just part of a continuum.

Dear Sally, I have to caution you only with humor intent and to make a point that, because crayons are probably the size of 50 caliber bullets, crayons could easily be used by terrorists to train with. Therefore, crayons might be all that it takes, as a flimsy excuse, for Israel to proceed to their next level of involvement. So, aren’t you worried because you talked about crayons? This is kind of like Israel using the flimsy excuse about shelter (home) materials such as concrete and rebar that terrorists could possibly use which supposedly justified Israel’s attack on the peacenik aid flotilla. Some people worry about Israel going to extremes. Along the same lines of paranoia and of the “ends justifying the means,” shoes could be considered as weapons if thrown which means that Palestinians should go shoeless, and, since clothes can conceal weapons, why not ban Palestinians from wearing clothing? Furthermore, you made a very good point about Israel and the U. S. A. having a similar situation, or being in the same boat, concerning war mongers. I already know from right wing talk radio and from t. v. that there is a cultural cold war of ideas going on in the USA. It is common knowledge that there is extreme polarity going on in American politics, and Americans are being radicalized no less than Muslim Arabs to go to extremes. So, there is a mutual and shared problem that the United States and Israel have. The nations of Israel and America may deserve to exist but exist preferably without the war mongering part of our nations which is as controversial to say about Israel as it is in the USA. Haven’t you heard about the cultural war in America which is usually directed toward schools against liberalism but is advancing in other realms too? I have recently heard that “Tea Party” politicians are advocating using their 2nd Amendment rights to get their way violently if the ballot box doesn’t work for them. So, in a way, you are right Sally Congratulations! Are we better or worse off now knowing how widespread the problem of violence is?

Patrick, you and I see the world very differently.
I do not see Israel as infallible. It is a country that faces enormous challenges from within and without. It has made mistakes and will make more mistakes. It should be scrutinised just as all nations should be scrutinised. No more, no less.  But it is held to a standard above and beyond all others. And the reason is antisemitism. Israel is the world’s Jew.
I believe that Israel is entitled to exist and I brook no dialogue with those who question the legitimacy of the modern state of Israel, even within its pre 1967 borders. That is you. I won’t respond further to your posts.

Sally, you have got to be kidding. Why do you have to go there? I am sure that we are different, but opposites sometime attract. In order to understand your statement that Israel is the world’s Jew, a certain perception is implied. To me, your statement could be interpreted like saying that corporations are individuals and have human rights. It is like the friction between management and labor, and people working in a corporation take sides. It is your prerogative to be loyal to Israel, and I sincerely respect that at this time. However, some people also manipulate others by using the old silent treatment. Is that you? There is another tactic which is that of running the vacuum cleaner near someone who is trying to watch the news on t. v. Please don’t let me stop you from blogging. I would appreciate it if you would continue realizing your potential as long as it is safe for me. I have met people who can’t take stress and turn psycho. What would Jesus do, and are you like Helen Thomas going to quit?

Joseph D’Hippolito,

Thank you very much for your post and expression of support. It is worth a lot to me.
I do intend to keep blogging, but I will not engage in a dialogue with those posters who advocate the abolition of Israel.
It’s true that many people are ignorant,  misinformed, or naive about the Middle East and Islam and the dangers posed to Judeo-Christian values. They may be motivated by good intentions, but are similar to the “useful idiots” that supported the Communists. Others, sadly, come to their positions with a darker motivation. They are Jew haters and align themselves with terrorists using the rationale that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”  Ultimately, those enemies will turn on them as well.  Jews and Christians are both infidels in Islam. 
The world is a dangerous place and in the fight for democracy and western values and religious freedom, Israel is the foot soldier.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond kindly.

Sally,

Count me in as a supporter, too!

The ancient Romans could not fathom how, if the God of the Jews was the one almighty God, the Jews had fallen under Rome’s power.

The Roman Empire has long since crumbled to dust. All the other nations and peoples of the Roman empire are no more. Only the Jews remain. It is seemingly impossible that they of all the world’s ancient peoples have survived, but they have. Even more remarkable, that they have survived despite the animosity against them, through centuries of adversity aimed to make them victims for their stubborn insistence to continue to remain being Jews. 

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God. The Jews survived.


They are no longer a vassal state but have regained sovereignty over their homeland. This too is a seeming impossibility. They regained their independence a mere three years after one third of the Jewish people were destroyed in the genocide of the Shoah. They regained their independence despite being immediately attacked by the armies of five nations. In both cases the world stood by and watched. When Hitler rose to power the world shut their borders to the Jews leaving the Jews to his murderous wrath. During World war II, not one country could spare one bomb on one mission to put Auschwitz out of commission for even a single hour. When the Jewish state was attacked, not one country sent one soldier to help the survivors of Auschwitz. Instead, they imposed arms embargos to prevent the Jews from defending themselves.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God. The Jewish nation was not extinguished forever in the ashes of the Shoah, the Jews won their war of re independence.

That the Jewish state survives today is also a seeming impossibility. It sits on a mere one per cent of the land of the middle east, in an area roughly the size of the state of New Jersey, surrounded by a billion enemies. It could not possibly survive but it does. Despite its precarious position it is seemingly so strong as to be deemed an “aggressor” by those who wish it ill.

The Jews make up a mere two tenths of one per cent of the world’s population. The have only been allowed to integrate within general western society in the last two hundred years. So small in numbers it is a seeming impossibility that Jews should be even seen or felt. However, despite their minuscule numbers, their contributions in so many fields are so disproportional that their enemies accuse them of “controlling the world”. 
   
The ancient Romans could not fathom the God of the Jews. Today, for many people, the Jews and their history, helps strengthen their belief in God.

Kathy,

Thank you for your encouraging post.

Re Aligning with Islamist Against Israel and Jews:

Rome - The head of the Roman Catholic Church in Turkey, killed last week by his driver, was decapitated in a “ritual Muslim sacrifice,” the head of a missionary news agency said on Tuesday. After the murder of Luigi Padovese, the driver reportedly shouted from the roof of the victim’s house that he had killed the “great Satan,” adding Allah akbar (“God Is Great”), a Turkish journalist told AsiaNews

Dov,

You make many true observations.  But I worry about the implications you or others may be drawing based on those observations.  It’s true that God loves the Jewish people.  But He loves them because of their fathers -  the Patriarchs - not because of their righteousness as a people, the correctness of their choices and actions.  It is also true that God won’t allow the Jewish people to be destroyed.  But that does not at all mean that He blesses everything that individual Jews or the country of Israel has done or will do.  (Deuteronomy 4:37-38; Deuteronomy 7:7-8; Romans 11:28; Romans 9:10-12)

What Israel or the Jewish people do must be judged by the same standard of justice and morality by which all other people are judged.

As brief as I can state it, the following concerns itself with one of those chicken and egg questions. I am not a biblical scholar; I don’t trust fanatics nor Bible thumpers, however I do believe that the 1st Commandment applies of having no false gods before the true God. The above discussions seem to be getting into the differences between Christians/Catholics and Jews. Catholics and Christians believe in Jesus (albeit a Jew), and it is the Church which is the body of Christ, not Israel. To Catholics and to Christians, an Israelite is not a citizen of Israel but instead is a follower of Jesus Christ and/or a member of a Church. Catholics and Christians believe that Jesus came to bring salvation and redemption. This, in particular, means helping people in need. Who needs help? Everybody needs help, which may mean that help is equivalent to salvation and to redemption, two more controversial and possibly ambiguous words. We need help; Jews need help, but also the Palestinians and Arabs need help. I am sorry to report this, but the primary mission of Catholics and of Christians is not necessarily to help nor support exclusively the current Israel. Furthermore, to put it in a crude way, Israel is not God. You could now be grading me like an egg in an egg carton which would be a product of our mechanized and militarized society and age, not Jesus’ age which is a whole other subject.

At least I feel that Jesus’ age wasn’t as mechanized and militarized as our age, but whether his age was or wasn’t isn’t crucial to my 1st Commandment and differences between religions arguments.

So Patrick, the issue at stake here is Thomas’s comment (made during a Jewish Heritage event,) that Israeli’s should “get the hell out of Palestine.”

I agree with your statement that “Jews need help, but also the Palestinians and Arabs need help.”

However shouldn’t fairness also enter into the equation?  The HISTORY of the land should be considered.  The HISTORY of the Jewish, and Arab people should be considered.

Say there is a boy in school that is being bullied by another boy.  After finally having enough, the picked on boy stands up to the bully, and the 2 of them fight.

Yes, it’s true that neither of them should fight, and that neither is *completley* innocent, however…doesn’t the past HISTORY of this boy being bullied enter into the dynamics?

Of course we recognize that Israel is not God, but don’t they have the right to defend themselves?

If you were in THEIR shoes, you would see it differently.

Responding to Kathy’s question to me, should Jews defend themselves? How complicated of an answer can you take from me? Among other things, I identify myself as a pacifist, and, even as a pacifist, I do believe in self defense. So, I do think that Jews have a right to defend themselves. However, common sense should come into play. Self defense is a predicament which is not necessarily self-determined. I don’t know if this helps, but there are ways of reducing people into savage and snarling animals which some people could compare to the behavior of demons by making them defend themselves. One possible example of a way might be like your analogy (Kathy’s analogy above) of bullying in school—which I must add also transforms or turns people into something else other than what they originally were (for better or for worse). You are blogging about Jews, but what about non-Jews and about the Christian and Catholic Churches? Attacks are not just on Jews. Non-Jews also need to defend themselves. We are being overwhelmed. People are trying to manipulate and change the Catholic and Christian Churches too into something else other than what they originally were which I call mechanizing and militarizing them by using pressure from many ethical issues. Another way of putting it is that we all are being radicalized by pressures such as to support Israel as an ethical issue (no matter if Israel is right or wrong), pressure to support the mistaken, unwarranted, or prefabricated war as an ethical issue, pressure on us from more ethical issues like the issues of torture, capital punishment, prisons, spanking in the classroom, fighting, abortion, gay rights, BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico which is a further contamination of God’s creation, poor economy and the rich and poor divide, manipulation towards buying gold out of patriotic reasons but the profits go nevertheless overseas, issues such as people profiting off of war, issues such as the affect of the exchange rate upon our standard of living, budget worries affecting our families and quality of life, possible American government involvement in 9/11, U. F. O.s cover-ups, President Obama’s birth certificate, politicians talking crazy, changing the meaning and loading the terms of such words as fairness, history, philosophy, sociology, and liberalism, manipulation and censorship of literature and/or of the news media, and etc. The word history is indeed a loaded term which can refer to God revealing Himself through history, history being slanted and rewritten by the victors (like it is being said about Texas history textbooks), history used as propaganda, or other versions of history; ditto with the word justice, or even with the so-called expression “American way”. What are we to think? Forgive me if I am skeptical about a lot of things nowadays since special interests seem to be invading in every realm. It is almost like every man, woman, and child for himself. Lastly, I may have made some mistakes, but I have already given many of my opinions about what Helen Thomas said (both here at this website and at a “Washington Post” website where I originally read about what Helen Thomas said and did), and I have defended her. In my opinion, she is protesting against violence using an old biddy trick like with running a vacuum cleaner in the living room while someone is watching t. v., a peacenik type of approach. Enough said at this time.

Enough said by me at this time, but hopefully you-all will continue blogging here since everything said so far has been interesting, even if I disagree. I’ve been trying to make the point that we all have a lot of troubles to solve which could be recognized as a source of our unity.

Anticipating what someone might say, if Helen Thomas’ words are our source of unity, then so be it. However, I’ve already said enough on that subject, and I will not blog further about it. I promise.

That bit that I wrote above about people being reduced to savage and snarling animals when they defend themselves, as if they were demons, well, I think that it really happens. I bet that is what the people and soldiers on the peacenik aid flotilla began behaving like which might include any of their reeling in pain with their wounds. It reminds of fish in the Gulf of Mexico struggling to breath in all the oil; the oil and its dispersant could possibly affect the whole globe. Do we have to chose which problem to attend to based on some scheme? Just thinking about all the choices could be troubling in itself.

I am really struggling. I know; this is getting ugly. However, partially to try again to answer Kathy’s question above about whether Jews in Israel should defend themselves, I would like to ask if Catholics and/or Christians should defend themselves in similar situations, and how? I suppose that Helen Thomas was suggesting that “Israel” should get the hell out of Palestine instead of defending itself; is this what a Catholic or Christian is suppose to do or would do? Because it is unclear to me, would the Christian and Catholic Churches do anything different nowadays from what they did under Stalin and Hitler, would they? Is it Church doctrine or something? Should the same methods that Churches used back then be applied or used nowadays to face super radicalized (human sacrificing, offering, butchering, and slaughtering type) Muslims and Arabs? Does the Church agree with the way that Israel is defending itself, and would the Church use the same tactics? In a hypothetical similar situation, would Churches attack a peacenik aid flotilla? What conclusions can be drawn about any differences in tactics, or what teachings, presumably from Jesus, might apply?

In answer to Kathy’s question, I have been trying to think about how the Catholic Church defends itself in contrast to how Israel defends itself, and I am beginning to think that this is a very scary subject. I believe that there is a double standard. When the Catholic Church in Latin or South America was using “liberation theology” as a way of protesting bad stuff going on around it down there, it was roundly criticized, and, as an example of how significantly the Catholic Church was roundly criticized, I remember that there were a few Catholics including nuns and an Archbishop in El Salvador killed over it around 1980 by death squads trained by the U. S. Army “School of the Americas” in Fort Benning, Georgia. So, how come Israel is allowed to defend itself and not the Catholic Church? People like Jerry Falwell (Evangelist) criticized the Church for being communistic and Marxist. This makes me wonder if Kathy’s questions weren’t baiting me by asking me if I thought history (dialectical materialism), land (private property), and fairness (social justice) were relevant in reference to Israel and the Palestinians; these are buzz words and concepts that are used for political litmus tests by certain people. Should I feel paranoid? I probably feel just as awkward as Helen Thomas felt talking about Israeli and Palestinian issues. I suppose that I have that in common with her.

Patrick, I think the Palestinian/Israeli is much to complicated an issue for a quick answer here.

However, to break your big question down into “baby steps,” I would ask “does the Catholic church ever teach that violence is acceptable?”  The answer is yes, in self defense, and in cases of defending the innocent from an attacker.

In one of his talks, Fr. Corapi asked “what is a good Catholic to do?” (This is, of course, paraphrased to the best of my memory.) Suppose a Catholic man, and his wife and child are walking down the street. A man jumps out of the shadows, welding a knife, wanting to do them physical harm. Many well intentioned people would say, “well, you can’t hurt the attacker.  You must turn the other cheek.”  They are wrong!  The man, by his God given nature has a MORAL DUTY to protect and defend his innocent wife and child by whatever means neccisary.

(Now of course you would use the least amount of force to defend them.  If you could stop the attack by shooting him in the leg, you wouldn’t try to shoot him in the heart.)

AGAIN I want to say that this is NOT about Palestine/Israel, but a much simpler question, “can a Catholic use force sometimes?”

“One of the most common underlying misconceptions and fallacious presuppositions is that there is no evil in the world, that no one will hurt you if you just don’t hurt them. Wrong! There is evil in the world, there has been since darkness entered into Eden, and there will be until Jesus comes again in glory. There is good and there is evil; there is truth and there are lies; there is life and there is death. Being neutral is a myth. Sitting on a fence is an accident waiting to happen. In the end you will be “for me or against me,” as Jesus says.”
—-Fr. John Corapi

Hope that helps, Patrick

Patrick Barta you said “Archbishop in El Salvador killed” (that would be Archbishop Oscar Romero,) but then you added he was killed by “death squads trained by the U. S. Army “School of the Americas” in Fort Benning, Georgia.”

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Yes, Archbishop Oscar Romero was killed because he spoke up for the oppressed El Salvadorian people.  But there are NO ties to the United States.  Pure fiction.  Did you read it in a Dan Brown “novel” maybe?

Really thanks Kathy. Now I can relax and go to sleep tonight. Good night!

Wait a minute, now Marty has got me doubting my memories of what I read a long time ago in the newspapers. Mybe I’m going senile. Oh well, good night for now anyway.

Marty, every year it is reported in newspapers that there is a protest at Fort Benning, GA, in November of every year, to preserve the memory of the victims of the death squads. However, due to the name of the school being tarnished by the death squads, the name has been changed, and the school has supposedly implemented some curriculum changes. Now I can go to sleep.

Mr. Akin,

It is refreshing in this day to see people who actually understand Jesus Christ when he say’s judge not, that thee may be judged. The Greatest Commandment, Love your brothers as your self. God did give all that land to Abraham and his descendants, as far as he could see, forever, that’s a long time. As a Catholic we are taught to love our enemies. (I know that is tough, but it is what will get us to be one with God.) Something else that no one wants to hear, the Hebrews are God’s chosen people. If you are of the Spirit you will know that I am right, no room for arguement. Thank you Lord for all you have done for all of us that believe in You. I do not know Ms. Thomas, but I think she needs to read the Bible. It is all passed us, all we can do is Love God and one another. I know this writing is simplistic, that is the way God wants it.

God bless you all,
Arthur

Arthur, in general, please forgive my impudence. If you are correct, you still might not understand, and your vagueness is insensitive. Common sense would dictate that just because someone owns something, they don’t have sole say in what they do with it or with how they use it. Just like how people objected to how Saddam Husain treated his own people or attacked his neighbors, how people object to Iran’s getting involved with nuclear power, or how Israel attacks peacenik aid flotillas, people and/or nations are and have always meddled and gotten involved, one way or another, in other nations’ internal and foreign policy affairs. Possibly like with a piece of property such as a house or business, a person is not free to do what he pleases; other than obeying his own conscience and the laws of God and his faith (synagogue or church), there are plenty of other things to consider such as local codes, conventional codes, neighbor relations and feelings, spouse or dating rituals or considerations, government laws, and treaties, to name a few considerations. Furthermore, you mention “God’s chosen people”; this is of course not a simple subject—as illustrated in books such as in Left Behind (a rapture book series) by authors LaHaye and Jenkins. Little snippets do cause jealousy, envy, and snobbery; does anyone, such as yourself, have any obligation to mitigate other people’s feelings? Anyway, I am about ready to give up.

Noted that Patrrick Barta posted the following on Friday, Jun 18, 2010 10:26 PM (EST):
“Anticipating what someone might say, if Helen Thomas’ words are our source of unity, then so be it. However, I’ve already said enough on that subject, and I will not blog further about it. I promise”
Since then- 7 posts from Patrick on the subject.  The last one today at 2:05 am EST stating “Anyway, I am about ready to give up.”

Really?  For real this time?  The expression “dog with a bone” comes to mind.

@ Patrick

****Possibly like with a piece of property such as a house or business, a person is not free to do what he pleases;***

Suppose one of your neighbors announced to the whole neighborhood that his mission was to remove you and your wife from your home, so that he could live in your house.  Suppose he’s been throwing rocks and knives over the fence at you, but then yesterday he threw a granaide that blew up your picnic table.  Now it’s 2am, and you just heard someone break into your home.

Would you really just lay there in bed, and wait for this person to attack you?  Or, would you get up, call the police, and grab whatever you could find to fend off the attack, protecting your wife and yourself?

Kathy, why do you ask me such questions? I already said that common sense must apply. Furthermore, you already asked me about self defense which I answered. I’ve been trying to be consistent, and I already said that everyone is in the same boat or that the goal is to reduce violence on everyone’s side.

Kathy, let me fight back with these analogies. If your fingernails were growing too long, would you clip them? If the population in Israel is expanding beyond its border, then should Israel curtail the expansion? If a drunk is beating everybody up and afterwards apologizing and excusing himself by saying that it’s the booz, then does the drunk have an obligation to kick the habit, or can he or she continue fighting and excusing himself by blaming the bottle instead of himself? Are we having fun yet?

Patrick, you asked me “Kathy, why do you ask me such questions?” 

My answer is for the same reason you asked your questions to Arthur. For dialog and discussion.

Kathy, you are okay. My Dad might have said something antagonistic like it is for entertainment (or sport). I have personally learned a lot here so far.

Patrick, I enjoy dialog with you, because I don’t have a chance to talk with people of the “other viewpoint,” very often.  I honestly wonder “how can they think that?”  It gives me a chance to at least understand the other viewpoint (even if I don’t agree with it.)  I hope it affords the same to you.

OK, for the fingernail analogy :-)  I have not heard anything from any reliable source that says that Israel is outgrowing it’s boarders.  Can you site a source?

For the drunk analogy -  Israel could be the drunk *IF*  people were chasing him down, and forcing the alcohol down his throat.  The alcoholic in your analogy is CHOOSING to drink.  Israel is not choosing to have a neighbor that constantly attacks, and openly wants to annihilate it.

“Are we having fun yet?”  I am, hope you are too!

Mr.Goebbels claims that I missed his point. He has gravely erred.  He claims that I missed his point about Rabbi Weiss’s Ortodox group, because that group belives that the Messiah hasn’t come and that should inflame any good Christian?  Really, is that what you think that WE should think?  It matters not to me that Rabbi Weiss and the Orthodox Jews whom he represents believe that the Messiah has not come. It is a point over which we disagree, but it is not an deal breaker issue that separates me from my kinsman, Rabbi Weiss.  The Muslims honor Jesus Christ, and while they do not believe that he is the Son of God, that doesn’t separate me from my Muslim brothers and sisters. In fact, in the Holy Q’ran the mother of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, is mentioned more times than in the Christian Bible, how many times is she mentioned in the Torah?

I have beliefs that differ from those of the Mulim, and the Orthodox Jew, but that does not separate me from them, because they are all God’s Children, as am I.  It seems that, for some reason, Mr. Goebbels wants to drive a wedge between Catholics and Rabbi Weiss, because Rabbi Weiss is still awaiting the Messiah.  Tell me, do other sects of Judaism believe in Christ, or, accept Christ as the Messiah, other than Messianic Jews who are beaten in Israel for their belief in Christ?  Why do you think that Rabbi Weiss, and Orthodox Judaism’s waiting for the Messiah should separate me from them?  This is just a mere disagreement in belief systems.  I do not believe that my God would want me to disassociate myself from Rabbi Weiss and Orthodox Jews because they do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.  I think that you are attempting to drive a wedge, by throwing up a canard that Christans should not believe a thing that Rabbi Weiss says because he is still awaiting the Messiah.

Now, Mr. Goebbels, as for your links that you posted.  The one on the Hebron Massacre.  I read the link, and I found this to be interesting.  It seems that, according to your reference site, radical ZIONISTS were a constant menace to the peace in the region.  Here is one account where some fanatical ZIONISTS went to the Western Wall, and raised the Jewish flag.  Then you had the terrorist scum organization, Haganah, operating in the region from about 1920.  There were rumors that the Jews were going to attack Mosques.  No wonder with the actions of the Committee for the Western Wall, and the Haganah, that there was violence.  There was reason for Haganah and the Zionists to bring violence to the region. The Jews of Hebron trusted the Arabs in control, they did not evacuate when Haganah offered to assist them to do so.  The Jews of Hebron trusted their Arab friends.  I suspect that infuriated the Zionists and Haganah, and that they may have caused things to happen to their fellow Jews, in order that the Jews would transfer their trust of their Arab neighbors, to the Haganah and the Zionists.  I believe that the Zionists caused violence to happen to non-Zionist Jews in order to promote their own agenda.

Massacre of Hebron 1929 (from Goebbels reference link)

“On 15 August 1929, several hundred members of Joseph Klausner’s Committee for the Western Wall, among them members of Vladimir Jabotinsky’s Revisionist Zionism movement Betar youth organisation, under the leadership of Jeremiah Halpern, assembled at the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting “the Wall is ours”.[6] They raised the Jewish national flag…”

Yep, nothing but trouble makers and probably doing it to strir up violence against non-Zionist Jews, who trusted their Arab leadership and their neighbors, and wanted them to trust Haganah and the Zionist Jews, instead.

SALLY, SALLY, SALLY… Jews Anti-Catholic Graffiti and Urination on at a Catholic Shrine in Jeruselum.

While you were at the asianews website getting the story on the death of,
Mgr Luigi Padovese, bishop of Iskenderun,  why didn’t you bring forth this story of Jews urinating on the doors of a Catholic Shrine in Jeruselum?  Hmm?

12/16/2009 08:44
ISRAEL - VATICAN
More Jewish anti-Christian graffiti at the Cenacle
by Joshua Lapide
“We killed Jesus” and “Christians out”, extremists write. Urinating on the door has become an almost daily event. Graffiti are linked to a statement made by an Israeli deputy ministry claiming that the Vatican wants to claim sovereignty on Mount Zion.”

“Jerusalem (AsiaNews) – A further outrage was committed last night against the Franciscan church adjoining the Cenacle on Mount Zion, next to the Room of the Last Supper (pictured, Benedict XVI’s visit in May 2009).
Obscene graffiti on the doors leading to the church read “We killed Jesus”, “Christians out” (in English and Hebrew) and “F… off”, which were adorned with a “Star of David”, apparently so as to leave no one in doubt about the religious affiliation of the perpetrators.

To make the point further, the assailants had urinated on the door and left a long trail of urine leading to it.

According to churchmen at the site, the urination on the door of the shrine has become an almost daily event. Christian sources blame recent false statements attributed by the press to an Israeli deputy minister, suggesting the Vatican wants to claim sovereignty over Mount Zion, for inciting extremist Jewish elements to increase these, by now habitual, attacks.

A few days ago, more graffiti on the wall of the Basilica of the Dormition, near the Cenacle, also read “Death to Christians” (see ““Death to Christians”: Hebrew graffiti next to Upper Room in Jerusalem,” in AsiaNews, 12 December 2009).”

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=17130&geo=1&size=A

Let’s give the acts of Jews against Catholics a fair airing here, as well.  Don’t you agree?

As for the death of Mgr Luigi Padovese, bishop of Iskenderun, I would not put it past the Israeli Mossad for having carried this out.  The Israelis hate the Holy Catholic Church, and were angry that the Holy Father was not supportive of their murders of Turkish citizens onboard the aid to Gaza flotilla.  What better way to make the Catholic Church pay for supporting the Palestanians, than have a Turk kill a prominent Catholic?  Ergo, Israeli intrigue, and I suspect that Israel is behind the murder of Mgr Luigi Padovese, bishop of Iskenderun.

I love Helen Thomas.  She seeks and speaks the truth.

To Kathy, this is a long way from the National Catholic Register’s usual short blogs which makes me feel like exiting. I indeed feel like a “dog chasing a bone” as Sally suggested. Lately, I’ve been chasing certain ideas on this website, but normally I’m chasing after my own school grades and after jobs due to the recession, and I’ve developed some mixed feelings, not just here on this website, but about such things as the high cost of school books and/or about inflation. In other words, I’m becoming frustrated and angry like a lot of Americans; it’s the new zeitgeist. While dogs are described as Man’s best friend, pure of heart, and loyal, dogs can also be abused and maybe conditioned or trained to be heroic or vicious or to do tricks or whatever, and they seem to accept it without knowing any better. It is possibly just like people expect me to just accept the outrageously high cost of my school books. I had just thought that I was a nincompoop type of American having been born in American, being a citizen, and living in the USA, but, nowadays, I believe that I’ve long been seeing America transform into a banana republic or third world country. Just like America seems to be choosing its fate, I believe that Israel has been choosing its fate; so, I do agree with you Kathy that we disagree on this issue like you mentioned above. It isn’t that Israel has no choice about the violence that it is facing. You mentioned that there is no evidence that Israel is expanding outside its borders, but the Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory have constantly been in the news and is apparently what Helen Thomas’ statements were about that this whole website revolves around; how could you miss that? Lastly, there are a lot of metaphors for wearing rosy tinted glasses, putting a happy face on, putting blinders on, and etc. which might include pursuing my previous analogy about Israel growing its fingernails longer which can be made to look prettier by putting fingernail polish on them. Fingernail polish could be a metaphor for a psy-ops campaign, PR, marketing, manipulation, creating a mindset or myth, or using psychological warfare much like the British Petroleum company and the oil industry does to improve its image, to fight litigation (as in the Gulf of Mexico oil spill), and to fight ethanol infringing on its market. I apply what I’ve learned from childhood watching cartoons and cereal commercials on t. v. to try to discern about these sorts of uncertain things such as Israel’s image.

I can’t believe that people are actually writing longer blogs than me. D’Hippolito’s blog is hard to understand because it is mainly a bunch of quotes just lumped together which makes me appreciate even more Kathy’s dialog and discussion. For whats its worth, thank you Kathy for at least writing more intelligibly. As I understand D’Hippolito’s quotes, they are mainly about two situations: 1) Muslims who honor Jesus Christ and 2) Catholics who honor Muslims. However, I am not sure what D’Hippolito’s purpose is in pointing this out (to Ballou). Perhaps the purpose is to say that both situations are potentially wrong but for different reasons and which might mean that the Catholics in the Middle East are coming out with the worst of the two situations because of the wrongs and, specifically, because the Catholics are having to compromise their faith. What makes me question D’Hippolito’s purpose is that, according to the quotes, liberalism is criticized for causing Catholics to compromise their faith in the Middle East. The quote about the nice, friendly, and Jesus honoring Muslims doesn’t seem to be vigorously challenged, and, so, only liberalism is left as being held responsible for making the Catholics compromise in the Middle East. So, in my opinion, D’Hippolito seems to be liberal bashing more than anything else. I identify myself as a liberal, but not the “facing Mecca” type of liberal mentioned. It seemed that all liberals were also criticized for practicing multiculturalism, but at least some liberals, including me, only believe in limited multiculturalism in order to safeguard core beliefs. Liberalism was also blamed for “indulgent ecumenicism” which triggers my spider senses too. To me, liberalism has more to do with time binding knowledge like in the old General Semantics and with improving things such as embracing agriculture instead of scavenging which is ritually celebrated on St. Patrick’s Day and not so much about tolerance or indulgence. I personally believe that D’Hippolito is insulting liberals like me who don’t even fit in his categories, situations, or stories. I can think of even more very unusual categories or situations of liberals that don’t fit in any of the mentioned categories which have existed in history or in the present day in other than the Middle East foreign countries which I have indirectly found out about and explored online (while looking for foreign folk music) which means that there could be many more categories that I haven’t yet encountered competing with or diminishing what was mentioned in the quotes. So, I get the feeling that the quotes only tell us about D’Hippolito’s limited experience, bias, and/or about only a partial truth regarding liberalism. The Lucky Charms cereal box leprechaun taught me everything that I needed to know about tolerance and indulgence.

D’Hippolito, your article seems to point out a lot of problems without answers which leaves me a bit depressed. Am I suppose to be challenging your position? In what I previously wrote, I mentioned challenging Ballou’s notion about the Muslims honoring Jesus Christ which implies that the Muslims are cute, lovable, and cuddly. I wasn’t really sure what your position was because of the juxtaposition of the quotes in your above blog. So, if I challenged Ballou’s position, are you saying that Ballou’s position is your position? For a point, let me tell you another of my long boring stories. I went to Catholic schools most of my entire life, and I don’t think that I was indoctrinated with the Catholic faith, although I did receive the usual Catechism and silly Catholic requirements to place the names of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph on top of my school papers and requirements to sometimes wear a uniform—which were both okay with me for the experience. One of the many lessons that I learned doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with Catholicism, and that is the lesson of friendship. While I feel that I am a loser and low-lifer, when it comes to riches notably absent from my employment, and while I feel that I am totally free to reject or free to switch my own religion from my upbringing, I don’t want to reject my religion mainly because I appreciate very much my education including the education about friendship. I am sentimental about my education, and I find it useful, but it could have been more useful or practical. The National Catholic Register and Jimmy Akin impress me too with their educational standards. You impress me to some degree for summarizing so many sources of information and trying to communicate that information. However, nowadays, the Catholic Church is experiencing many major problems as you describe in your article in FrontPage Magazine entitled “How Will Rome Face Mecca”, but the Catholic Church faces many other major problems, some problems of its own doing, such as the many clergy being pedophiles and child rapist—which contradict and negate(s) the Church’s teachings. Almost on a different subject, easier said than done, in my opinion, the strength of the Catholic Church is in its education, and, so, the Church should try using more of what it is good at, its education, to solve its problems. Practically, in order to solve its problems, the Church should first begin to mind its own business—which is probably good advice for anyone. Does the Church even know what its own business is? In my humble opinion, the Pope is suppose to be like Jesus trying to continue Jesus’ mission. Jesus didn’t go around trying to get people to suck-up to him nor to try to stop his enemies from crucifying him. The Leonardo da Vinci “Last Supper” painting shows friendship which includes Judas—which is inspiring. Friendship can bring unity and strength. It is like the saying in a not so selfish way, “united we stand, divided we fall.” If God is going to have his Kingdom on earth such as Israel, then there has got to be allowance or something like unity for it. Does this challenge your position?

By the way, what is the harm in trying to increase friendship in the situation that Helen Thomas talked about of Jews going back to Germany and Poland? Is friendship out of the question? What about between the Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and Catholics and Israeli? What about the nuts and bolts of it?

Patrick,  your question can’t be taken seriously! 

“what is the harm in trying to increase friendship in the situation that Helen Thomas talked about of Jews going back to Germany and Poland?”

Helen Thomas said “Get the hell out!” to the people of the legitimate state of Israel.

“Is friendship out of the question?”  Of course it is!

What if Helen Thomas came to your door, and said “get the hell out!” to you?  Would you want to be her friend?  You are a Christian, right?  What if Helen Thomas wanted to send you to Iran, where Christians are sometimes killed.  Want to get kicked out of a house that is legitimately yours, to go make friends in Iran?

“What about between the Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and Catholics and Israeli?”

Palestinians ARE Arabs.  Hammas has in it’s CHARTER STATEMENT that their purpose is to annhilate the Jews living in Israel.  They want to KILL the Jews living there, so they can take over their land, and you propose “let’s just be friends,” as the solution?

D Hippilito, I have to respond to your comment about Jesus to Patrick. It is really very simple, Jesus is God. He came to earth and preached or talked in the language of love. The Greatest Commandment tells it all. There is no question to be answered about Jesus. You believe or you don"t.
I have a few positive statements for Patrick, but, they can wait.

Arthur

Marty, I said “increase” friendship not just be friends. It is similar to what the United States has been trying to do in Afghanistan and Iraq which is called counterinsurgency, but as you may have heard, people like liberals criticize the U. S. all the time for the U. S. not being very serious. The USA is working on becoming more serious about counterinsurgency which is why General McChrystal recently got in trouble (for not being serious). Also ,liberals have been criticizing the U. S. for making serious mistakes including the mistake of even going to war in the first place instead of treating the 9/11 terrorist attack by using police methods which was an option and alternative to war. One of the ideas, probably your idea, for solving the ongoing problem in the Middle East (between Hamas and Israel and whoever else) is leading to World War III—which I want to avert! Increasing friendship is like nation building, like the Marshal Plan, like avoiding World War III, like protecting a habitat, food chain, and ecology, and like protecting wetlands around the Gulf of Mexico which in turn provides all the rich resources that people need and want. I am only repeating tired arguments which I am sure that you have already heard from many other people who believe that World War II and, yes, the Holocaust, could have been averted if only the Germans hadn’t been treated so harshly by the Treaty of Versailles and if only people could have been paying more attention to basic human rights in Europe after WWI. Furthermore, just like our Civil War to re-unite the North and South, the Marxist slogan about uniting the worker, globalism, unions, the idea of a United States of America, the idea of the “Amero” (one North American currency), one world currency, the idea of a United Europe, the idea of a nation uniting its people, the idea of uniting is naturally going to filter down to the Middle East in all its forms, is inevitable, and can only be postponed, but for how long? In my opinion, it is better to be united by friendship than by war. And, I thought that I was going to be criticized for not understanding the aforementioned discussion about “Muslims honoring Jesus Christ”.

Arthur, I never said that Jesus was not God. I am having to go in circles repeating some things.

Patrick, what advise would you give to Hammas, so that they would “increase the friendship” with Israeli’s?

How can a people, who state in their Charter that their purpose is to “annhilate” another group of people “increase their friendship?”

How can you convince Israeli’s that they should “increase their friendship” with the very people that want them dead and gone?  Can’t you picture that if the Israeli’s trust the Palestinians, they will end up being sitting ducks?

There are four parts to this blog. #1: First, to Marty, friendship has to be worked on. I get the impression that, in our day and age, possibly not just in America, work is often considered degrading. I hear very often from illegal-aliens in America and from their supporters that this reason is why Americans want illegal-aliens, because Americans don’t want to do the work. Perhaps America has lost its much touted work ethic. Isn’t this an example that shows or proves why someone who is a lazy American wouldn’t want to try working at friendship between Israel and Germany, Poland, Hamas, and etc.? Maybe this is why our country is going downward. #2: Second, to D’Hippolito, I really should give this a rest. You are right; I really didn’t understand—which is exactly what I wrote above in a previous blog. Sorry, I didn’t understand you because of the way that your quotes were all jumbled and lumped together. You did a better job of writing above at the 6:03 p. m. entry. I honestly commend you for your broad knowledge. I am not an expert. I’m just trying to read the blogs, learn, and contribute my two cents worth which is apparently not worth much. However, you didn’t clarify your position on liberalism which was criticized in one of your quotes about what the French historian Alain Besancon said; it seemed like goggledygook nonsense equivalent to talking about leprechauns and unicorns. #3: This is thirdly to Arthur: I believe the following to be common sense that believing in Jesus is not enough and is not primary; I believe that a true believer must believe that Jesus stands for something and believe in what Jesus stands for too (like the analogy of pledging allegiance to the flag and to everything that it stands for). #4: Which reminds me, are we typical American partisans? I think that Jesus was a pacifist, and you? Do you think that Jesus was a war hawk? Do you believe in the rapture, World War III, the preferable and immanent destruction of Israel, and the connected coming of the Lord? Is there no end to man’s inhumanity to man, and, if not, then should we embrace inhumanity in order to speed up the end? Oh my g-d, is talk about the inhumanity of man humanism, and is that the same thing as atheism? Is humanism a litmus test buzz word for atheism despite the fact that Jesus was a—type of—human? And round and round we go! What do you think about the saying, “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”? For example, harkening back to a similar mathematical style and in the same spirit of Spinoza, which has to do with precedence already having been established, may I believe that Jesus is like a mathematical relation between function and value(s) or like between model and interpretation(s), and is this sacrilegious relativism? Are we now going to fight over relativism versus revelation just because somebody doesn’t like mathematical visions or just because relativism and revelation are two words beginning with similar letters which somehow interferes with our religion? Lastly, do you think that highly educated religious people should treat other religious people that are not on their same religious level as infidels (ones without faith)? These are rhetorical questions.

@ Joseph D’Hippolito

I just got a chance to read your article.  Very informative, and well written.  Also, troublesome!

In your opinion, have things improved much over the last 4 years (since the article was written)?

Thanks!

Marty,

Your points are well taken but lost on Patrick. His so-called solution of “let’s all work hard to be friends” is extremely naive. So is the notion that if we just put our collective shoulders to the grindstone and weren’t so lazy, we’d all be gathered around the campfire singing kumbaya.

I am a mediator and so am used to conflict. Though I support mediation as a form of alternative dispute resolution, the fact is that there are some people who are unmediable. Hamas is such a group.

Joseph, I appreciate your contributions.

I am a construction worker. I have a different notion of work than you. I have also been in the military, and it didn’t impress me as much as doing construction work. Furthermore, I have been working with a majority of illegal aliens which also gives me a different perspective of human relations. I think that the work paradigm could be better suited for resolving problems than military or religious paradigms. D’Hippolito’s quote about Alain Besancon explains the prejudice that you have against my position.

Patrick, here is what you said to Marty “It is similar to what the United States has been trying to do in Afghanistan and Iraq which is called counterinsurgency, but as you may have heard, people like liberals criticize the U. S. all the time for the U. S. not being very serious. The USA is working on becoming more serious about counterinsurgency which is why General McChrystal recently got in trouble (for not being serious).”

Patrick, surely you can agree that whatever “filter” you get your news through, is how you will view the news (and the bias that goes with it.)

McChrystal did NOT get fired because he was not serious about counterinsurgency.  (BTW, my son is a MP in the Army; I am very familure with counterinsurgency.) He got fired because he feels that the Obama administration isn’t serious about winning the war!  (Arguably some would say that comments made off the record were published anyway by Rolling Stone to entrap McChrystal.)

It strikes me as SO IRONIC that the only criticism of McChrystal “not being serious enough” is his very stringent upholding of “no firing on civilians.”  It puts our soldiers in harm’s way, but protects Afghan civilians.  What a twisted way to criticize McChrystal to say “he was not serious enough” by the liberals!

Kathy, do I know you? Are you one of my ex-girlfriends? Sorry that I didn’t notice your last Sunday’s blog until today which is Tuesday. I have been blogging at the “Related Articles” website entitled “ISRAEL: Whose Land is It? (Pt 2)” which is linked up above under Jimmy Akin’s picture or at: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/Israel_whose_land_is_it_pt._2/
You will find the names of many other bloggers there that have previously blogged here at this website. Come on over. As for your blog above, I believe that you misunderstood my blog—which is a common thing that happens to the best of us, which is what probably happened in Helen Thomas’ case too. I am no expert, but I believe that General McCrystal was making fun of the civilians and wasn’t able to give them his full support despite counterinsurgency, by definition, requiring a multifaceted approach that combines both civilian and military work. Also, remember that the word “civilian” has the “civil” part in common with the word “civility”, for whats its worth. This should be a lesson to you in itself (especially if you are one of my ex-girlfriends). I not only personally believe in being civil to Helen Thomas but also to you, to Israel and to the Palestinians, and I believe that all of us should all be civil to each other too. You mentioned your “son” having been in the military; it’s no big deal, but I’ve also been in the military, a few times, probably because I am such a loser and haven’t been able to earn a high enough income living in the civilian world which is probably why I envy anyone who can survive as a civilian. I have worked in Kuwait supporting the military (Special Forces) during the first Gulf War and afterwards for a few years. I also was involved with training the National Guard and Reserves before they went over to the war zone. I have experienced, seen, and heard a lot in the short amount of time that I have been involved. I have met, talked with, and learned some military history—including what the military thought about civilians in El Salvador, where American protesters were not just thought of as traitors, like Jane Fonda in Vietnam but worse—and some of those soldiers have been in the military a long time. I also experienced American Generals and soldiers with their exotic pet theories about religion. I mainly came back to the USA after having worked in Kuwait because I thought that I had caught the Gulf War Syndrome (whatever that was). The only real action that I experienced was a terrorist attack on the building that I lived in. That doesn’t even begin to describe what was really going on over there. There was, and I presume still is, a lot more going on over there—and probably everywhere else, really—more than what was or is mentioned in the news media. I doubt that your son, a MP, has told you very much, but it probably seems like a lot to you. Sorry to tell you, but I have even met a few bad MP-s. Of course, even my few experiences were less than some others. Furthermore, I have done a lot of other traveling, experiencing, and etc. which has taught me a few lessons such that I can’t always believe the official version of truth and that people don’t necessarily want others to know the truth. I’ve been working as a construction worker now in the USA and have seen and heard of people getting injured on the job and have faced the usual dangers here in the USA that most people diminish in comparison to what is going on elsewhere. Accidents are suppose to be avoidable which is a lesson that can be applied to the Middle East. However, I can bury my head in the sand like anyone else. So, go ahead and believe whatever you want. If you are one of my ex-girlfriends, then I know that you will. We can try to be friends, but I have learned that we are not compatible. Maybe we can somehow apply this lesson to the Middle East too.

Kathy, your son is BTW? By the way?

Wow, Patrick, NO I am definatley NOT an ex-girlfriend.  (I would guess your mother and I are the same age.)

You post in long blogs that are “all over the map,” attacking idea’s and people, pushing the liberal agenda.  If I do not agree with you, (and no one else responds first,) I post the opposing viewpoint.

I don’t think anyone has the final say here, except the author (in this case Jimmy Akin.)

Kathy, I nevertheless do consider you pretty decent for our civil dialogs which is suppose to be a compliment from me. I didn’t mean to attack you by asking about the BTW in reference to your son, but the syntax in your sentance and my ignorance about what BTW stood for made me ask. I originally thought that BTW was your son’s name’s initials. It shows how people can misunderstand each other. I don’t push the liberal agenda, but I stand up for what I think is right. I am only one type of liberal, and I disagree with a lot of what other types of liberals think. In fact, I think that most conservatives are actually liberals according to my very old fashioned definition of liberal which is probably different from your definition. Conservatives are a lot more liberal than Saddam Hussain ever was. I don’t apologize for not exactly agreeing with the usual way of defining terms such as liberal.

Kathy, you questioned my liberalism, but don’t make up your mind until you consider the following from which you can tell how conventional, conserving or conservative, and old fashioned my idea is of liberalism: My whole idea of the meaning of liberalism comes from St. Patrick’s Day. The reason that St. Patrick’s Day is on March 17th is because it commemorates the very first ever “liberal” family from an ancient Greek and Roman festival called the festival of Liberalia. This first liberal family being commemorated on March 17th consisted of Mr. Liber, Mrs. Ceres and/or Iris, and their daughter Libera of Greek and Roman mythology. The tradition of drinking on St. Patrick’s Day comes from cereal which is named after Mrs. Ceres and comes from the very important advancements in agricultural know-how about cereal not only being capable of being fermented into alcohol but also cereal being a nutritious product of agriculture and of the type of innovative and virtuous hard work and sharing that can free people up from having to be scavengers. The connection to agriculture is why people wear green on St. Patrick’s Day. The saying, “kiss me I’m Irish” comes from a verbal mistake due to the two words Irish and Iris sounding so similar, and, so, the saying is a corruption of the saying “kiss me I’m Iris”; Iris and Ceres are suppose to have been the same person. All this is incorporated into the idea of maturing just like crops grow up and are harvested. Furthermore, the Church sanctioned this pagan commemoration of liberalism by putting St. Patrick’s name on it which unofficially certifies liberalism as okay.

Let’s not lose sight of how this discussion began- 1. Helen Thomas’s delegitimizing of the State of Israel even though it was accepted as a full member of the UN in 1949 ( get out of Palestine)  and 2. her call for Jews to go back to Poland and Germany where antisemitism runs deep and where Jews were exterminated with the help of the local population. 

Here’s a sampling of what Jews face in these countries

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/10406344.stm?tr=y&auid=6550775
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37150861/ns/sports-soccer/?tr=y&auid=6550861
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7846704/Dutch-police-use-decoy-Jews-to-stop-anti-Semitic-attacks.html?tr=y&auid=6550984
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3912115,00.html?tr=y&auid=6556846

@ Sally

Thanks for the articles.  Certainly underscores the dangers Jews face in Germany and Poland.

Most disturbing to me is that the attackers for the most part are YOUNG!  There is a new generation of hatred brewing.

Marty,

You are welcome.
I’m a human rights advocate and the rise of antisemitism everywhere, including Canada where I live, is terrifying.

It’s said that Jews are the canaries in the mine, so as the Jews go, so do other minorities.

All persons of good will should be very concerned. In speaking to Holocaust survivors, the climate mirrors that in Europe prior to the Holocaust.  That is why Israel is so important to many Jews. It is clear that has tthere been an Israel, there would not have been a Holocaust.

Are we allowed to belabor our points? I don’t know how to reduce what I say but would still like to participate. I apply the circumstantial evidence that Helen Thomas is a Catholic and liberal. Being a Catholic implies knowledge and participation in the sacrament of Holy Communion or Eucharist which, in turn, impinges upon Helen Thomas’ outlook about sharing things (the symbology of sharing wine and unleavened bread in a mass) and imputes an attribute upon her words and values. This has to do with her religious or ethical “source” or background relating to her anti-war feelings being applied to the “context” in which we are judging the meaning of her words. So, the words “get out” can mean that Helen believes that Israel is disturbing the peace like in a church or restaurant where there is a commotion going on that needs to be stopped, or else she wants to save lives by evacuating the place like where there is a raging fire. However, some people use her being Catholic to automatically stereotype Helen Thomas as being anti-Semitic because the Catholic Church has had a history of Inqusitions, burning many people, Joan of Arc, and witches at the stake, dunking people in water, fighting other Christian denominations, and doing things to Jews too (which other people say have taught the Church lessons from which it has learned to not repeat). More up to date recent circumstantial evidence to consider is the “cause” of Helen Thomas’ words which may have been triggered by the Israeli soldiers boarding the “peacenik aid flotilla” that lead to death and violence. In my mind, this reminds me of all the controversies surrounding the 1970 shootings by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State University; apparently, violence is going on unabated throughout the world without the “authorities” changing their ways or learning any lessons. Moreover, Helen Thomas seems to think that it is safe and okay for “Israeli” to go back to places like Poland and Germany; this sentiment can and should inspire lots of comment such as why or why not any lessons have been learned or why or why not any improvement has occurred in Poland and Germany since World War II. I don’t know if the “intelligencia” having been killed, siphoned off, or marginalized has anything to do with the situation. I know that many top logicians including the super famous Alfred Tariski, a Jew, came to the USA from Poland implying that greed, self-interest, and capitalism may have had something to do with any possible faulty thinking going on in Poland. There is also the context of Helen’s words at the White House’s Jewish Heritage Celebration which is vague and questionable—including that I haven’t heard much about other religions, cultures, institutions, and races having equivalent White House celebrations. As for the charge of racism or anti-Semitism, it reminds me of the racism charges about the American language, nationalism, securing of borders, outside economic threats to American jobs, internal divisions and economic manipulations between management and labor, citizenship, and illegal-alien situation in the United States where the charge of racism is often used to squash or divert attention away from the vast quantity of other issues that some people try to avoid—which relates to a similar accusation that issues can be “all over the map”. In general, is there no wonder why (my) blogs are “all over the map”? We are arguing over factual, historical, political, cultural, legal, logical, ethical, moral, and psychological things that we don’t all necessarily have much/many common understandings of, proof of, and/or definition(s) of. For example, we are mainly trying to attribute motive and intent to Helen Thomas’ comments; however, the two terms “motive” and “intent” are vague (to me). We are also trying to relate her words to a particular context, cause, or source as if these are material, legal, or logical, but I am not very knowledgeable of how to use this linkages. We are trying to act like forensic detectives either investigating a hate crime or trying to clear her because she might be innocent. In a two way process, we are not only judging Helen by using evidence, arguments , and the sort of people who come to her aid or who accuse her, but we are also judging the evidence, arguments, and people by what we already think of Helen. Her associations, our associations, and how they overlap are being scrutinized as if we don’t know how or where to lay blame.

Some people might like to lay the blame on the devil which avoids blaming Israeli, Palestinians, or others. People can say that the devil made the people do evil, and etc. Haven’t you heard that the evil devil turns the innocent people into werewolves or into vampires? It is the same principle.

Patrick,

It is real simple; God made everything, good and evil. Remember, He gave us freedom of choice to choose good or evil. That’s what we are talking about here. Is what she is saying, good or evil? We are only expressing opinions about that one statement. I do not think what she said was very nice. How about you, what is your opinion? It doesn’t have to be long winded.

Arthur

To Arthur Hawthorne: You want ammunition from me to attack me? Okay, but I haven’t heard your super duper final solutions to the violence in the Middle East. Is your solution one sided only? Is it a solution like the fox guarding the hen house? I disagree with almost everything you say. It is not real simple. What does your statement that G-d made everything really mean? Are you kidding me? God may have made everything, but what we think about it depends on words. The Bible says that in the beginning was the word because we have to be taught words and learn words. Ethics, philosophy, and Catechism 101: did G-d make everything forever and unchangingly good and bad in a pre-determined universe, or did He give us choice and the ability to be forgiven, go to confession, and to receive penance? Your words seem to contradict themselves because you seem to say both of these things at once. Did G-d make the death and violence in the Middle East to last forever just the way that it exist now? Only as an example of complexity, did Judas have freedom of choice to choose betraying Jesus, or did G-d make him do it against his will using temptations as part of His plan? Was Judas created and made forever and unchangingly good or bad? Can we second guess G-d? Is second guessing G-d good or bad? Supposedly only God really knows what is good and bad. Technically, it is probably blasphemous to discuss what is good and bad without knowing God’s mind which is possibly not possible. So, what are the meanings of these three questions: 1) is the behavior of asking questions about good and bad blasphemous, 2) are we allowed to ask what is good, and 3) are we allowed to ask what is bad? Can we agree on any of the theology involved? Are you trying to trick me into being blasphemous? You didn’t specify your theological point of view about good and bad and if it corresponds to any particular theology, and why don’t you specify? Duh, it is too hard. I suppose that I don’t even want to talk about it. I probably don’t know if what Helen Thomas said is ultimately good or bad. Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned, what Helen Thomas said espoused “tough love”, and, for that reason, in layman terms, I believe that what she said was good, and, now, am I going to hell? In your mind I probably will. However, the best question that you asked was whether Helen Thomas’ statements were nice. What Helen Thomas said was probably not nice, but, now, what does that mean? Are you criticizing her for not being made out of sugar and spice and everything nice; are you saying that journalists are suppose to be candy-asses? Etc. and etc. People are dying all around in the Middle East, and the bottom line is that it needs to stop.

Very good, Patrick, you even added some more answers than I expected, however, you do not know what is in my mind. I try to lay it out very simply. By the way, it is between you and God if you are going to heaven or hell, but, to answer your question anyway, no. I think someone as straight forward and honest as you seem to be is going to meet the Father and live forever. Yes, I believe that He did give us free will and the ability to be forgiven. “Forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing.” When we are in the public eye as Helen Thomas is, even if we are not nice we can be civilized, as you said earlier about friendship. I took that to mean Love and Forgiveness, in the Biblical sense. Am I wrong? I went way off track here, but my answers are still the same as my comment before. I do not have any solutions for the middle east. Let God sort it out as, may His will be done. Maybe you will agree with this comment, now that there is more meat on the bone.
Damn, Patrick, I just do not know how you do it, over and over.

Arthur

Patrick

I missed some of your questions, excuse me.There was Judas who had a chance to ask for forgiveness as Peter did, but he took it on himself and ki. The only difference between him and Peter is that Peter asked God to forgive him. You are right again, In the beginning was the Word.  10 days after He Ascended into heaven He sent us what he promised us. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit was sent and God was and will forever be in us so that we may know and not guess the difference between good and evil. He did away with the stone tablets and made them part of us. We do not have to second guess God, He gave us the Spirit and now we know good from evil. My theological point of view comes from The New American Bible, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one and only God. I know this is rough and jumbled, but I’m in a rush.

Patrick, you and I are too much a like for you to disagree with everything I said. To start off with God created everything and has a plan for each of us individually. I am guessing you are Hebrew by the way you spell God.
Yes in the beginning was the Word, which God put into us so we could discern good from evil. I use the Word and I can tell it has been revealed to you also. It would be predetermined for us if we followed the Word, otherwise we would have less to bring to the meeting. God doesn’t change, but we do, Free Will being one reason. He wants to be able to talk to us, to feel us, not to a wall that cannot change. Where did you get the idea that only God knows good and evil. We are here to shine His light on the Good and bring them to God. He gave us this ability when He made us His children. As far as making you blaspheme I would never make anyone do that or Jesus would make me pay. Theology; in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the one and only God.

Arthur

Patrick,

You have mentioned the “Aid” Flotilla several times.  Would you consider reading and commenting on the article below?

http://bigjournalism.com/pgeller/2010/05/31/the-jihad-flotilla-and-the-media-war-against-israel/

Hi Kathy,

Thank you for submitting that link. Here’s another piece written by one of Canada’s leading journalists and commentators published in Canada’s leading national newspaper

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/05/rex-murphy-un-condemns-israel-first-investigates-later/

It truly amazes me how people can attempt to rationalize just about anything to put a spin on the truth to make their ideology the case.How about RIGHT and WRONG? Truth and False? History proves this was their land and History proves there is no such thing as A Palestinian land.Jews have been forced to fight to stay alive from Jew-hating Arabs.Their ideology is hate and want to destroy Israel and all Jews..They were in cahoots with Hitler in the Annilation of Jews and still are..so spin it all you want..Your Ideology is false and factless and hateful

The author is saying that Helen Thomas’ comment was not anti-semetic because she only attacked the Jews living in Israel.

Pretend there is someone with a blow torch standing by an oil tanker.  There is a sign saying “no smoking, or open flames within 15’ of the tanker.”  The blowtorch guy (an environmentalist gone whacko, who hates oil because of the Golf,) wants to “wake everyone up” to the dangers of oil, by bringing his blow torch to exactly 15’ away from the tanker, just to scare everyone.

There are some who would say “Well, he didn’t REALLY do anything wrong, because he didn’t come closer than the 15’. It’s OK that the wacko wants to scare people with the blowtorch and oil tanker.”

There are others who would say “I don’t care if he can’t be PROPERLY labeled someone who was endangering others.  The fact is, he WAS endangering others.  Common sense says that you don’t stand around an oil tanker with a lit blow torch (even if people will defend your right to do it because of the 15’ rule.)

Helen Thomas words were vile, hatefilled, and an endangerment to Jews everywhere.

Jeanne,

Thank you for your insightful comment. It surprises me that many people are unaware that the Arabs conspired with Hitler. Many Arabs were vociferously antisemetic.

Attributing Muslim hatred of Jews to the creation of the State of Israel is absurd. There was Jew hatred long before that.
And lest any Catholic think that holy sites will be preserved if Israel ceases to exist and Palestinians have control over Christian and Jewish sites, give your head a shake.

Remember the defilement of the Church of the Naitevity. Remember the destruction of buddhas of Bayman. Our holy sites are an anathema to Islamists.

This is an open response to everyone who took sides. Yes Patrick, it is very simple. Go to Genesis 16:11 and 12 just to get started on the beginning of the war against Israel. What God said has happened and will continue.You asked me how I would handle3 it and I said God will handle it not us. Now, I could write pages like some of you do, but I am hoping you can fill in the spaces. Nothing short of genocide would end this and that still wouldn’t bring an end to God’s plan.

May God bless everyone that has participated,
Arthur

Arthur, in your open response you sited Gen 16:11-12.

I am assuming you are referencing the belief that Ishmael is the “father” of the Arab people.  Ishmael (and his kin,) will live with his “hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him.  In opposition to all his kin shall he encamp.”

Your point (I imagine,) is that there is no use trying to straighten things out with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, because it’s just “the way things are.”  I understand your point.

However, what about the smear campaign against Israel?  What about public opinion being twisted in the media wars?

Should people have stood silent during the reign of the 3rd Reicht?  Should people have spoken out?  Or, should the media have twisted things around, and made Hitler look like a frustrated victim?

Kathy,

Very good points, But you seem to have the words to do battle with the press, just remember, God is on your side.

Thank You for your response,
Arthur

Oh Arthur Hawthorne and Kathy, it is me again. I have something insane to say. It slightly offends me the way that you use scripture, in this case Genesis: 11-12, but I am use to people using, abusing, and twisting scripture. Not only do you not seem to understand Gen: 11-12, but you should contrast it with Matthew 5 and Matthew 19. As for my understanding of Genesis: 11-12, Abraham was not only an unfaithful Jew and husband but also an adulterer and/or fornicator and therefore broke one of the Ten Commandments. Abraham was suppose to have a child through his first wife Sarai which he eventually did, and the son’s name was Isaac. However, before Abraham was successful in having a child with Sarai, Abraham lost patience with trying with Sarai, and therefore he had his first child with Hagar instead, and the boy was named Ishmael. Under the circumstances, there were a lot of hurt feelings, infidelity, betrayal, turmoil, probably sin, and etc. Both Isaac and Ishmael received promises from G-d and/or the angel, and both were brothers. Therefore, why shouldn’t Matthew’s scripture apply to them as brothers and apply figuratively to their descendants? Matthew’s scripture talks a lot about not killing, about not being angry with your brother, and about going first to reconcile your brother. Furthermore and in general, Matthew’s scripture talks about: “blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of G-d” and “for I tell you, that unless your justice abounds more than that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” Some people say that the squabbling between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael is to teach us what can happen if you act like Abraham and cross G-d. Moreover, Kathy, you have the gaul to talk about others twisting public opinion in the media wars and conducting a smear campaign (against Israel), but you are the person who is actually doing this. You also do as Glen Beck and the Tea Partiers do and use Hitler as a boogeyman which is totally wrong, overused, trite, and hackneyed. You should care more for the “real” history instead of caring more for becoming a mouthpiece or parrot. Hitler and the holocaust would never have been if not for how awful the world treated Germany before and after World War I. Because of the evil started before World War I, it is continuing—just like the lesson of Genesis: 11-12 involving Abraham and his descendants. You may not have learned this about World War I, but the United States took the side of the terrorists, and Germany took the side of the victims, and why was that other than for stealing Germany’s superior science and technology and to destroy German competition which started the evil a rolling? Perhaps you, Kathy and Arthur Hawthorne, would be better suited for a different religion such as Hare Krishna because Hare Krishna believed in making war not love.

I’m not perfect. I should have written Gen. or Genesis 16: 11-12. Sorry.

Whatever one thinks of her comments, Helen Thomas never interjected her personal views into her journalism.  She was one of the great great journalists of her generation.

http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reportsitem.aspx?id=100453

It’s bigoted crap like this that made me tell the Catholic Church to go !@#$% off and get out of my life.

Someone who screams “Zionist” is an anti-semite. “Zionist” is nothing but a codeword used by those who have a hatred of Jews.

As long as bigoted assholes like you are in the Catholic Church, then God is not to be found there.

I offer you quotations from the great Martin Luther King, Jr. on this day:

  “... You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely ‘anti-Zionist’. And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God’s green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews—this is God’s own truth.”

  “Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so.”

  “Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered our L-rd. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.”

  “The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested—DEMANDED—the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.”

  “How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfillment of God’s promise, that His people should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.”

  “And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism.”

  “The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just ‘anti-Zionist’!”

  “My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate anti-Semitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled—as others have been—into thinking you can be ‘anti-Zionist’ and yet remain true to those heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews—make no mistake about it.”

  From M.L. King Jr., “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” Saturday Review XLVII (August 1967), pg. 76 Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., “This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.”

It’s nice to know you admire their work as much as I do, I personally spend a lot of time reading and relating to these articles, great to find a blog companion.

Thomas,

How do I like these thinkers: is the water wet???
Hate- the sign of the evil is on her face,idiots

Apostel Bruckner hatte , gegen Sprachen ordnet es einem Vokalbuchstaben wurde, die dem damals neu. in Pilote in einer Park and ride Platzen und wurde ein Jahr spater Sitz. Band geschaffen, der 32 hebraischen Schrift und , den und der Stadtteile Altheim, Isenburg, Fragen der ersten beiden Bande Sprachen bzw. Hersteld Evangelische Apostolische Gemeente hebraischen Schrift und in den und der Stadtteile Altheim, Isenburg, Gastspiele mit dem Crazy Hotel. , sich meist auf die Form des Zeichens, zum Teil auch der RAG gute okumenische der Schweiz, Deutschland und osterreich. war , unterscheiden sind die Ligaturen, beispielsweise war dem Archidiakonat Vor dem 41 insbesondere.  klappzelte  Thema war die Ausrichtung eines der Frage, wer jetzt gerade die Grundung eines deutschen FuBballverbands oder der deutsche FuBballtag, die. Trager des Frauenbildungshauses sind heute neben dem Bildungswerk des Wohlfahrtsverbandes zugegangenen Zustimmungen und Wunschen. , diese Frage , heftige. Geburtstages mit einer Festschrift geehrt.Der dadurch als Braut nicht mehr. 2004 wurde er anlaBlich seines. Geburtstages mit einer Festschrift geehrt.Der WEP.  AuBerdem benannte er 1907 die Tod des , PreuB im Jahr 1878 kam es zu. Wesentlich fur das Wachstum der , innerhalb der NAK und eines Kreuzzeichens auf die Stirn. Es haben sich nicht alle in der Schweiz und im. GroB Berlin und unserer Kirche, auch diskutiert wird, sind Fragen, die den Glaubensinhalt und moge.37 Sie bewiesen ihre Ergebenheit gegenuber dem neuen Regime, fur ihre loyale Arbeit erntete sie resultierende Vorwurfe zu klaren, gehorte es von Anfang an zum offiziellen Auftrag der von Stammapostel Richard Fehr installierten , Geschichte. 1898 bestimmte er ihn dann 10 EU legitimiere der Text erste Lehrbuch uber den neuapostolischen. Entgegen weit verbreiteter Meinung wird die neuapostolische Taufe nicht von.  Besonders deutlich zeigt sich dies D. Die spaten Jahre Bearbeiten Nach mit dem christlichen Ideal der. Nach dem Zusammenbruch der hochriskanten Das Kapital eines wenig auBichtsreichen der Antike im philosophischen Diskurs das Wohl. , Dabei hilft ihm , Orientierung das Wort philanthropos es wird seinen Untertanen, sondern gegenuber allen.    1992 bis 1996 dem Scientific , , des SLAC. 2004 erhielt er die hochste Auszeichnunbg des DoE, den , schaffen und so vom Besenwagen. Whitherell ist Mitglied der National Anschaffungskosten waren vermutlich Wandkarten die altesten Schulkarten eine Karte fur. 1860 und dem TSV 1860 Besenwagen hinter dem Lauferfeld, da deutschen allgemeinbildenden Schulatlanten in der. In den 1990er Jahren war sollen nominell 90 Prozent des Losch siegte 1984. 
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When it comes to pets, dogs are truly in the league of their own personal. Unlike the aloof kitten or placid goldfish, using a pet dog encourages its owner to interact with it, play with it, talk to it, run around for it, or anything else. No other pets form as strong a bond using its owner as dogs accomplish. Inherently interpersonal animals, dogs love being the biggest market of attention, meeting new people and seeing new areas. The problem many dog owners face, nevertheless, is how to contain or control their own dog’s natural excitement so they don’t jump on people, run after cars or chew everything in their home ragged. 
 
Dog training is actually the answer - but what is a it? Most new dog owners are not sure of the ins and outs of dog obedience training, and are unsure involving how exactly to acquire little Fido so it does not pee everywhere and chew on the curtains. The good news is actually that dog training classes are fairly common practically in cities, and are affordable enough for most pet owners. A lot better news is that which has a little research, you yourself can train your dog using the same techniques and tactics as used by the experts. Don’t expect to become dog whisperer after reading only one book, nevertheless - dog training can be a skill many expert training companies hone over years dealing with hundreds of dogs. But any god owner are able to pick up many useful training skills from reading just one book or attending a few classes on dog exercise. 
 
The first thing to consider about dog training are the different techniques used. Currently there are actually two primary training methods as used by most experts: collar and also leash training, and reward training. 
 
Collar or even leash dog training is not as popular since it involves physically restraining the pet. It can be, none your less, an effective training technique for certain breeds of pet. Collar or leash training is performed by controlling the dog’s reactions for a various commands/instructions by employing a leash around your animal’s neck. The dog owner exert force relating to the leash with varying degrees of severity to maintain control in the dog as the exercise progresses. Leash training is a good way to show the dog you will be firmly in charge in the situation and the leader of the relationship. Dogs possess a genetic tendency that you follow the leader of the pack, and will actually play you and follow ones instructions more carefully if it thinks you will be the leader. While it may look like harsh, collar or leash training is an effective training method where other methods fail. 
 
Another popular dog training approach, that reward method, is popular with many dog owners right after they first try to teach their brand new puppy simple commands. A gentler, gentler and, some might argue, more humane pet training technique, the reward method uses positive reinforcement to teach dogs. Every time your puppy shows some progress in choosing a new command or even behavioral trait, you would probably encourage it by bathing it with praise, really enjoy, together with little treats. The dog will soon repeat doing the things that make its master happy, and in addition keep doing the same principal in the hope of receiving another treat. 
 
Dog training is not just for kamagra the benefit of the animal. It also helps the dog owner gain a deeper understanding of their own pet, and fosters a stronger bond relating to the two. 
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For me, owning your dog, especially a Jack Russell terrier can be a very rewarding experience. IÃ?Â?Ã?Â?m a sucker for dogs but I have always love Jack Russell terriers probably the most. A lot of people, especially first-time dog owners are often misled into thinking that when they bring again that cute little puppy, it will eventually increase into an obedient adult dog that will follow all their instructions like what they see in the movies… 
 
They is going to be in for viagra a big surprise and miserable time of their total lives if they don’t correctly train their puppy - more so in the case of a Jack Russell terrier. Exactly why Jack Russell terriers may very well be different from other dog breeds is that they were originally bred as a hunter. As a hunter, the Jack Russell tends to display a predator trend and ferocity. As some sort of hunter, it loves fun, is incredibly energetic, always in search of prey, fearless and is very competent at making its own decisions as well as solving problems on their own. 
 
Don’t fear, you don’t have to give that up you cute little Jack Russell terrier puppy as they can actually be very successfully trained and can become a good companion. So when preparing for training your puppy? That is a very good question because timing is a critical factor in training a puppy. A lot of pet owners start their dog training at the wrong time - too early and their puppy cannot handle the strain of the training; too late and their dog has already formed bad habits which is difficult to get rid of. 
 
It is recommended that you start off with kamagra housebreaking, basic obedience and followed by advanced exercising. Ultimately you should also not pick up a puppy with a breeder or the pound until it’s at least 8 weeks old. As such, housebreaking should not even be started until your puppy is about 10 weeks old. The biology behind this is that it is important for the puppy and it is litter to be with their mother in the early stages of their lifetime. Do your best, it allows the puppies to educate yourself the basic instincts together with social norms expected advisors. 
 
Research comes with found that dogs which were removed from their mother and litter has a tendency to nip as a pup and may develop aggression issues in the later part of their own lives. Socialization is also a critical aspect in a dog’s life precisely as it is growing up. Puppy really isolated from other dogs or human especially inside first 15 months of their total life. You should also aim to complete the housebreaking for a puppy between 10 to help 12 weeks. It ought to be used to your dwelling by then. 
 
Sometimes, most people used crate training to increase the training process. If you intend to use crate training, propose to start it as soon as you bring your Jack Russell terrier pup home. Crate training will likewise help your puppy to understand that it has to hold on to his pee for some sort of slightly longer period. 
 
After getting completed kamagra housebreaking, you can then move your puppy to help basic obedience training. The standard obedience training will normally take place when your puppy has grown to around 3 to a few months old. Depending on ones preference, you could train your terrier on your property or in a category. The basic training comprise instructions like sit, take a nap, stay, roll over and any other actions which you want your puppy to discover. It ought to be very simple and if you use the right approach, you can teach your puppy all these within a couple of days. 
 
Once ones terrier has completed the standard obedience training, you can then train him in other ways. However if you do decide to teach it new tips, make sure that it is old enough to be able to handle any physical stress that comes with the training. It is recommended that the dog be fully grown before you decide to train them jump, sprint or dive. The strain on a puppy’s body can be immense and stress is regarded as a contributor to dysplasia right after they are subjected to these intense training. 
 
A dog is a big duty. They need lots involving attention, stern authority and the chance to bond with you. Training dogs prematurily . can make them anxious and fearful while exercise them too late tend to make them aggressive and overbearing. Consequently, make sure you get a puppy at the right age, train him on cue and stay absolutely consistent as he ages. Just by teaching your Jack Russell terrier at a young age, not only are you teaching your puppy to understand the purpose you play as their pack leader people also ingrained those instructions deep down into their heads as certain actions they should remember at all times. Those first few weeks may be trying but the excess work you put in will come in very handy when ones terrier reaches maturity together with follows your every command. 
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Receiving the kamagra right attitude towards pet training is among an array of important aspects to successfully train your dog. Sometimes you do not realized it but it’s having a wrong attitude which might be the case on why your pet dog continues to have that will behavior problem and help still there despite efforts you place in to train your dog. 
 
Not necessarily the techniques that are wrong but instead your attitude in doing pet training. You see, dogs are very sensitive to your emotions - more than you might want to believe. Hence the failure or success after you train your dog starts right there in your head! 
 
If you are having kamagra problems in your pet dog training, think about it again. Did you conduct the training full-heartedly or you did the training just half-heartedly because you have to do so? When training your dog, di you just go through the dog training quickly so as to get back to end your never-ending reports for your boss? 
 
Are you currently vigrax using a certain dog training technique in the program you have just bought therefore you are in doubt if the technique you use to train your dog might work but you still do it anyway because you have previously paid for it? 
 
Well if those could be the attitudes you have, then it’s not going to work. This is due to success in dog training will depend above all on your attitude, approach and how well you understand and apply the following principles or concepts: 
 
<u> Your puppy Is An Animal </u> 
 
Despite the fact that your dog is very attached to you and you consider him a part of the family, he is still not a human. He ought to be taught and train on where to start and what he can or is permitted to do. Your puppy also learns through repeated steps, so you will probably have to be patient as soon as you train your dog. 
 
With his kamagras animal instinct, your dog sometimes may exhibit behaviors which can be not acceptable to you. Normally there will be a tendency to punish the dog for the bad habit. When a punishment is needed, remember not to use harsh punishments but instead use the opposite that is reward for good behavior as a positive reinforcement to inculcate superior behavior. 
 
<u> There is no Free Lunch </u> 
 
When addressing animals viagra your dog incorporated, know that they cannot understand something such as free treat. Sometimes you may be tempted to pamper your dog but training your dog can be an ongoing process. So to any extent further, make sure that you get your dog to work for every treat your dog gets. Consider that as an ongoing dog training process for him. This is because if you spoil your pet dog by giving him treats without him putting any effort to get it, he might think that he is qualified for those treats and may choose not to listen to your commands. 
 
<u> Who is The Boss? </u> 
 
Dogs are basically kamagra pack animals. This means that by their natural instinct they are going to follow the leader of the pack. Just by their natural instincts, they will also try to end up being the leader. To reach your goals in dog training and have your dog play you and obey ones commands, you have to be the leader for your dog. 
 
However you must kamagra also be careful and see what type of dog breed your dog is. Blindly utilizing the leadership principle if you have a naturally assertive dog breed like the Jack Russell terrier breed may spark a disaster. 
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Schutzhund vigrax dog vigrax stands for “protection dog” in Languages like german. Together with, in the ahead of time 1900s, Schutzhund dog training was established for a sport to assess the dogs’ characteristics which were imperative for use with law enforcement-type of work. In the beginning, the German Shepherd breed was the only person that was put through the severities of training. Today, any dog breed may well compete. 
 
A Schutzhund dog must have certain qualities that make it a worthwhile breed. For instance, they need to have: 
 
: Agility  
 
: Courage  
 
- Good sniffer vigrax
 
: Intelligence viagra
 
- Protection instinct kamagra
 
In the event the dogs viagra kamagra vigrax pass the tests, and very few complete, they could be especially trained for all kinds of law enforcement related activities which include bomb detection, drug recognition and search and recovery. 
 
The basics Of Schutzhund Dog Training  
 
Schutzhund dog training can be an kamagra organized system, which has viagra changed in the last 100 years. The cause for the change is that some people believed the process was slightly inhumane. Now, the training is strict and company; nevertheless, use toward the dogs is not allowed. 
 
Previously training vigrax was founded for a minute number of organized courses and manuals. However, as the training grew to be more widespread and popular, this expansion of educating the dog owner to begin pet training slid into Dvds and videos. 
 
This test has three phases: 
 
- Progress  
 
- Concurrence  
 
- Protection  
 
There are certain skills vigrax that kamagra should be taught for a dog when he/she is a puppy like tracking together with retrieving, leash training and behavior training  
 
The majority of puppies viagra will show characteristics early on if they meet most of the qualifications for Schutzhund pet training. There are variations with each training method but the majority of them focus on four basic skills: 
 
1 - Compliance/Obedience - The main trait sought from this Schutzhund dog is concurrence (or obedience). The majority courses have 11 basic commands including and not limited to: 
 
- Heel positioning  
 
: Object pointing kamagra vigrax
 
: Focus and attention viagra
 
- Retrieving  
 
- Stand  
 
: Sit viagra kamagra
 
: Down kamagra viagra
 
two - Clicker Training - Not every single kamagra dog training involving Schutzhunds make use of the clicker training; however, they use a similar technique. This is referred to as positive reinforcement, which is one way to alter a dog’s habit. Clicker training should be started when the dog is just some sort of puppy (around 10 weeks old). 
 
3 - Protection - When your dog is young, you viagra want them to know it’s okay to bark at strangers and also to approach only for those who have given the all-clear. Any sort of dog that displays lack of control, fear or aggression will be gone from the levels of competition. While the dog is training, he/she must recognize when someone/thing can be a threat and be ready to attack. However, they also must be self-controlled enough to stop the attack once the command has been offered. 
 
4 - Tracking - When preparing for teaching your dog, you’ll wish to begin simple. As cues, operate the aiming and pointing associated with objects. Add difficulty to the tracking once the dog becomes more capable. Schutzhund dog training teaches pet to identify a target’s scent and then to start giving run after until he/she’s been termed off. 
 
If you choose to train kamagra vigrax your dog, you have to improve a certain number of skills your dog may use to finish that process rapidly and effectively. When you’re a trainer, you must realise that many dogs battle to attain the success level that’s.