Could you address the other prohibitions including virginity at time of marriage, killing of a child for disobedience and ownership of slaves etc. etc. in the Old Testament? These do not seem to be ceremonial commandments to me and barely judicial, but moral ones. These prohibitions are at the crux of the hypocrisy accusation of following the prohibition on Homosexuality which Dan Savage refers to. Thank you.

Abhay

Dan Savage makes a valid point in that we embrace or reject what we choose in the bible.  We ignore most of the teachings of Moses today.  How many people today strive to even keep the ten commandments?

Many believers of the fundamentalist strips are joined by people like Mr Savage in their inability to use common sense. The Old Testament, Hebrew Scriptures offered the Natural Law and some basic dogma along with rules and laws that were based on the People’s moral development approximately 3000 years ago, finally edited 500 years before Christ. The dietary laws and laws about killing are scrapped, exceot Murder is prohibited by the Commandment that says do not kill, Jesus re-inerpreted that to say do not kill or even call another a fool, and love your enemy. He was a pacifist in the purest sense. The dogma is that GOD is Lord, all LIFE is His and the earth is ours on loan,  as temporary stewards of all of it. The Natural Law bans abortion, barrier and chemical birth prevention as well as same-gender genital activity but demands as does the Gospel Love for the other and respect for their human dignity- absolutely no room for bullying or harassment. But does not equate their “desires” and “rights” with what is Natural Law, each human has boundaries, the “do not touch that tree ” in Genesis is a poetic way of saying that. A commandment does not cease to exist just because it is broken- that is what separates the animal from the civilised human.

@Abhay: the killing and slavery you mention were common practices by people who did not possess the fullness of the truth of Jesus Christ as we know today. In fact, atheists and idol worshippers institutionalized those practices using the strength of their corrupt governments. However, Christians today follow the 10 commandments and the New Testament, which is charity towards all men, turning the other cheek, and obedience to laws by governments as long as they do not oppose God’s natural laws (i.e. homosexual marriage). Seeing your name, I have to ask: are you of Muslim faith? If so,  please explain why Muslims to this day follow 1000-year-old laws in the Qua’ran that sanction the stoning of women and propose violence against infidels (including homosexuals).

God willing I would have stood up and started saying the Lord’s Prayer very very very loudly. Then maybe some Hail Marys, Glory Be s, Hail Holy Queens, Etc, maybe even some litany of saints (Saint George, pray for us, Saint John, pray for us, etc)

Since if I didn’t do that I’d go ballistic.

Excellent video, Jimmy!

@Abhay, re: slavery ... One thing to remember is that the slavery of ancient times (c. 1st century) did not nearly resemble the cruel chattel slavery of the Old South in American history. (And that’s often the vision we conjure when we think of slavery.) If you were poor and born in some remote area with little prospects, then one option you had was to become a slave.
In ancient Rome, although slaves were the property of their owners, they could own businesses and could own property. I’ve also read estimates that 20 to 90% of the population of ancient Rome were slaves.
So historical context is important here.
I recommend the book ‘That’s Just Your Interpretation’ by Paul Copan on this topic (chapter 19). Yes, I own it.

This article on a Christian (but non-Catholic) site also puts the issue into good perspective, I think:
http://www.reasons.org/articles/how-come-the-bible-doesnt-condemn-slavery

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Can anyone tell me why Dan Savage was not charged with a hate crime?  Or is that legislation only for the suppression of the faithful God fearing citizens.

they all should have walked out,, he’s clearly ignorant, and out of his league,, the contexts of levitical laws, sense of slavery, call for a much greater slave than this Dan. I know many many gays who disagree with this Dan. He is a very angry man.. he’d be better off to show the true realities of the gay life to young people, and be as honest as he says he is.. try: bath hours, dark rooms, PNP parties, dying AIDS patients,,
SOme rules are there for a good reason! ,, for our health and happiness, in the times we live!

I just want to clarify that the article from Focus on the Family skews the purpose of the It Gets Better Project to “encourage teens with same sex attraction to embrace homosexuality.”  while I believe the intended purpose is to encourage teens with the knowledge that It Gets Better… the bullies won’t always be in charge.  It’s intended to encourage teens to reject suicide… because the crap they’re going through now is temporary. it gets better and we all know it does!

I say this as a devout Catholic and as a journalist.
Be very careful when you skew or spin someone else’s message to the ugliest side of your perception… because that is precisely when you are accused of being narrow-minded and intolerant.

had that article said something like, “Encourages teens to wait out the difficult bullying years and not give into despair.  Although it could be argued the program also encourages them to embrace their homosexual leanings and lifestyle… ”    it wouldn’t show such a great bias.

.
just FYI

@abhay—as far as OT punishemts go, those are also superceded by Our Lord in the New Testament. We know this from the account of the woman caught in adultery. Adultery is still a sin, but Our Lord directs us to mercy, not killing for infractions.

And others answered the slavery charge, but I will try to summerize: Not all slavery is the same. There is nothing inherently wrong with things like indentured servitude, or making criminals or prisoners-of-war work. Savage is either ignorant or knows and conveniently ignores the fact that “man-stealing” which we associate with the chattel slavery of the Imperial Europe was condemned in the OT and the NT.

Dan got it just about right. People have no trouble addressing gay people with all kinds of vile language, throwing hatred and derision their way and justifying it with bible-based prejudice.  Then they complain when others call them out on their “bullying” and pretend that it is their “freedom of religion” that’s being trampled.  As some recent articles have pointed out in regard to the Vatican’s attack on the good nuns of our country: “we need not ask “What would Jesus do?” - - - we need only ask “What did Jesus do.””    I don’t believe that Jesus told ANYone that God hated them - his entire ministry was about telling people that God loved them as a father, and proclaiming reconciliation.  Love can not hate - and our earliest Christian epistles proclaim that “God is love.”

To all of those who seem to indicate that because some Christians treat people with same sex attraction as an abomination that that particular line of thought is church teaching, it couldn’t be farther from the truth. The Catholic church is one of the only churches out there who teach that every human, homosexual or straight, male or female, young or old, born or in the womb, deserves the same dignity. That all human beings are made in the image of God and that all of them, whether they live in a way that shows it, still deserves that dignity and respect.

Catholics do not teach that same sex attraction is a sin. They teach that anyone, male or female, homosexual or hetero, young or old, who violates the sanctity and design of sexual intercourse sins. That’s a much different line of thought.

@Bmullins - right on!  Too many, way too many, Catholics do not uncderstand this teaching of the Church and are subsequently rolled into the evangelical/fundamentalist line of thinking.  But kudos anyway to the Christian students who had the courage to excuse themselves while being bullied from the bully pulpit of Mr. Savage.

“It Gets Better - the youth campaign that makes everything worse.”
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/it_gets_better_-_the_youth_campaign_that_makes_everything_worse
.
.
Why is the the duty and responsibility of everyone to fight against so called “gay marriage”.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=25-01-024-f

I see that Al apparently did not even bother to watch Jimmy’s response. As far as the so-called attack on nuns—nonsense. What the Church is doing is the loving and patient response because if they ignore the errors of the nuns, they are going to continue to die out as they continue to do.

AL read the explanations of what JESUS said and what HIS followers believe as was explained here. It is a sign of not listening when we take the exceptionm such as bullying same-gender humans, or burning abortion clinics as if that was the moral code of all believers. That kind of lack of logic does not belong in civil discourse and therefor not on here.

“Homosexual activist Dan Savage recently was invited to give a keynote address to a group of high school students at a high school journalism conference.” What more needs to be said? The rest of the article has been written a thousand times before. “Speaker whines about the Christian culture that tolerates his behavior.”

Local sympathy and concern for sinners has been transformed into a national defense of the sinner’s rights and free speech. The next step is a global defense of the sinners as a protected monority under a UN charter for diversity. The sin itself is enshrined as a badge of honor, and speaking out against it is marked as hate speech.

These social engineering types do not understand that it is only our Christianity that allows us to tolerate their outrageous behavior. Once they have successfully removed the Christian ethic from public life, these tainted activists will no longer be welcomed as teachers of our new generations.

Let’s not forget prayers for the high school students subjected to this potty-mouthed tirade. And kudos to those that recognized that the emperor had no clothes and walked out. There is hope! Be not afraid!

Dan Savage, by means of his vulgarity, shows that he has no little way to justify other than through vulgar ranting. Not a very good logical foundation; in fact, not funny either. I guess bullying and intolerance are the foundation of atheism if one takes its spokesperson as a model. I ain’t missin’ much there.

No beatings are justified by the bible. You can disagree with something and not hate people. I think having gay sex is a sin, but that doesn’t mean that anyone has to be hateful toward someone who does.

Why is it that the people who are making a pleas for tolerance are so intolerant of those who disagree with them?  These were high school kids.  Whether you support or condemn Savage’s views, he’s doing the same thing to them that he gets so upset about when others do it to him.  Think about this a little bit—these were high school kids.  I’m proud of them for having the gumption to get up and walk out on something they found offensive.

Okay, I heartily agree with everything Mr. Akin said in his rebuttal…
One of the fruits, however, for me personally is that I have been convicted in cleaning up my language!  I’ve been known to drop a bad word or two when my kids aren’t around…. But that Savage guy talked me out of it!  Those vulgar ugly words directed at Jesus pierced my heart, and I have resolved to kick the profanity.
Many thanks, Mr. Savage, your mission to change hearts has worked.I will see to it that the likes of you are never allowed around my children.

Exactly Katheryn. He’s kind of a negative witness to the Truth. Agnostiskeptoatheists always tout how reasonable they are against us magic sky-man worshippers, but when they go off on tirades like this, it proves they are operating on an irrational emotional level. All that is left to an observer who agrees with Savage’s rhetorical bed-wetting on stage is the No True Scotsman fallacy.

That Hat Lady’s answer to Abhay’s doubts are good. Abhay may be an Indian. He does not seem to have studied Jesus.
          Here I dont know who invited Savage to lecture school students .  Is homosexuality so imprtant a subject that schools have to discuss about it > The media creates all sound on such pervertions. Those who believe that sex satisfaction for few seconds is the aim of human life, let them have it. But we do not accept their plea that majority of human population believes homosexuality is good and marriage between a man and a woman is not natural or sacred

Al Natom wrote, “People have no trouble addressing gay people with all kinds of vile language, throwing hatred and derision their way and justifying it with bible-based (sic) prejudice.”

WHERE exactly is this happening, Al?
I always hear people say this, but I never see any examples!

I always hear people say this, but I never see any examples!

Basically Fred Phelps and that’s really about it. Naturally, 99% of the Christian world rejects Phelps and his unmerry band of orcs, but hey, what’s a straw man between friends?

Jimmy, the video format does not make you more effective. 

The educated can read faster than you can speak.  But it does have the beneficial aspect for you of making it harder for one to point out your errors; one has to transcribe then counter.

Also, you are fulfilling a fundamental error of Protestantism; infected with various levels of “cults of personality”.  Namely, Protestant’s love for putting their own face on their faith.  Protestantism by its theological nature rejects humility with obedience.

By the way, your arguments though overall factually true and good.  Miss the critical points of Dan’s arguments.  So folks like you end up making Christian’s look ignorant and end up turning more people against the Christian Faith.

Please do us all a favor and go back to writing commentary.

AMDG

Hmmm…so mostly folks are upset with Mr. Savage b/c he swears a lot. And he rightly points out that awkward fact that the Bible is used against gays…but is conveniently ignored when that same Book endorses capital punishment for adulterers, endorses slavery, endorses dashing babies’ heads on rocks (Psalm 137:9).
Well I’m upset b/c gay rights is a right to life issue b/c gay teens have a higher suicide rate than other teens. I know, I know, y’all think it’s b/c gay=intrinsically disordered, ergo the high suicide rate. But then why does the gay teen suicide rate drop so dramatically in states that support gay rights, gay teen support groups, etc? They don’t kill themselves b/c they’re gay. They kill themselves b/c they are subjected to abuse, ridicule, bullying, and Church-sponsored hate talk that attacks their deepest selves.
Are you really pro-life? Do you really want kids to stop killing themselves? Good. Then drop the biblical absolutism for verses that confirm your prejudice. Support hate crime laws. Fight against the bullying and hate talk that are the true reasons behind high teen suicide.
The numbers are in. Homophobia kills. Stop the hate.

GodIsLove, from your response, it does not seem that you even listened to Mr. Akin’s response.  The Catholic Church recognizes the dignity of all human beings.  The church does not condone fornication or contraception; gay sex is both fornication and contraceptive in nature.  Note that I said nothing about gay people.  Just actions.  Actions do not define the dignity of human beings, that is innate.  Actions are good or bad, not people.  I’m not a homophobe.  I’m a prolife anti-sin Catholic female with much to work on, including finding a patient, loving way to address the vulgarity directed at the Lord of Life in “educational” forums.

There is no good way to respond to someone on an impersonal rant.  Well, the best way is probably not to go to his scheduled rant.  If you find yourself there, it’s probably best to just leave. 

This dilemma is as old as Proverbs 26:4,5
“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be made like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise.”

The boat has already sailed on Dan Savage imagining himself to be wise, so I say go with the first answer.

The head of an anti-bullying campaign tells a bunch of kids they are “pansy @ssed” for standing up for their beliefs and then sarcastically apologizes for hurting their feelings. And then calls Christians hypocrites. Real nice.

bravo, Jimmy Aiken.  Thanks for the measured response to the outrageous things said by Mr. Savage.  I just signed up for your “secret information club.”. Can’t wait to learn some timeless truths!  God bless you for the work you do.

Savage is a sick man.  But I question the integrity of anyone who would invite him to speak at public gathering, much less ajournalism class, much less to high school kids.  The kids that walked out should much more integrity than the sponsors of the gathering.

@GodIsLove please cite a peer-reviewed source for your claim that suicide rates drop in ostensibly more tolerant states, because last I heard, countries in Europe that bend over backwards for homosexuals still have suicide rates among them that are through the roof. Now the problem really is that when we ask the question, “How do we prevent teen suicides AND make it ambiguously clear that homosexual sex is intrinsicly wrong?” you are not interested in a solution. In short, you want us to lie to supposedly save lives which is a dubious claims.

P.S. You remark about stoning adulterers, slavery etc displays abysmal ignorance. It is nigh on impossible to interact with someone who demonstrates they have no knowledge of our position (even when it was explained by several of us) yet declares us to be laughably wrong. In short, please interacts rather than rant.

P.S. Here’s a hint: don’t cite Mark L. Hatzenbuehler’s study as it is highly dubious, in methodology, bias and sensational claims.

One thing Dan Savage can do is give exactly the same address in regard to Islam and the Koran. Then we’ll see if he is serious.

Thank you, Jimmy, as always for your reasoned, level headed response.  We must not let the anger of the moment overtake us and instead answer this movement with love, patience and reason.  It is rather disturbing that speakers like this are telling children we must “overcome” the Bible and Christianity.  I guess Christianity is the “last hurdle” to jump before we are a true Obama Nation.  God help us all.

http://www.calltoawareness.blogspot.com/2012/04/dan-savage-and-bible.html

Dan Savage has no clue what the Bible teaches about slavery. He cannot make the distinction between prescriptive and descriptive laws, and God’s temporal and specific commands, versus general fixed ones. Why is this? Because he has no desire to learn what the Bible actually says, he just knows that the Bible condemns sex between people of the same gender, and he does not like that particular doctrine. Rather that listen to a raunchy sex columnist, why not learn from Paul Copan, Daniel B Wallace, Tom Gilson, and Crag Blomberg who are all actually knowledgeable in this area?

Homosexuality is not a disease
Homosexuality, I agree, it is not natural. But not even a disease. And gays and lesbians are God’s children, although not acknowledge God. The best way to neutralize their aggressiveness in the public recognition of their sexual differences, but in the sphere of privacy.
Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar

Just watched Jimmy’s video and it is superb apologetics! Great job! Aiken both reasonably answers Savage and educates us.

Homosexual sex is so obviously depraved that an intelligent person does not need the Bible to judge it for what it is: a perversion. Incidentally, Dan Savage exemplifies the insanity that underlies homosexual urges very well.

Giancarlo, you are right that homosexuality is not a disease. I tried a “find text” and cannot find any comments here to say that it was. Unless you are refering to the Church teaching that homosexual attraction is “disordered”. It is a very common mistake even among well-taught Catholics to equate disorder with disease. It’s not and it is not even properly a psychological disease. Rather, what the Church means by disordered is that a homosexual attraction is not ordered to its proper object—the proper object being someone with whom one has complimentarity. When you say they are God’s children, again, I don’t see anyone arguing otherwise. I frankly, I don’t understand your last sentence.

What makes heterosexuals think they sin less than homosexuals. We are all sinners and fall short and it’s God’s Grace through His Son that saves us. Why are we ubderstanding and kind to adulterers, fornicators, abortionists and all kinds of other sinners, yet we cannot ubderstand the pain gays are in. I do not agree with Mr. Savage’s language, thinking or methods but please don’t think all gays agree with him.

A barrier for people is that terms like corrupt, depraved, perverted, and disordered can be used as insults and feel like insults when directed at one. However, they have perfectly sensible meanings when used to refer to the natural law, as Scott W. points out in regard to “disordered.”

God Bless the individuals who had the courage to walk out….....they are the future ‘cross bearers’ for Christ.  I wish I had half of their courage.

So many people with SSA get bent out of shape because they think that “perverted” refers to their humanity, not their sin.  All sin is a perversion, and should be avoided!

This is the perfect example of how anti-gay people change the bible’s words for their anti-gay agenda.

Corinthians 6:9-11
Let us examine that very closely.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakoi], nor homosexual offenders [arsenokoites], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

First of all, before we address this line, let us consider one thing. Supposedly taken from a 2000+ year old book, understand that the word “homosexual” was not coined until 1869 by Austrian-born novelist Karl-Maria Kertbeny. So how it happens to be included in a true reading of the particular biblical passage should make you ponder how accurate the interpretation actually is. So man changing the words of the Bible to conveniently spread their anti-gay agenda?

Absolutely.

We need to get the word out to religious communities that anti-gay people are twisting God’s words to condone their anti-gay agenda.

Homosexuality is not a sin. The Bible is constantly being taken out of context to support anti-gay views. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, Greek temple sex worship, prostitution, pederasty with teen boys, and rape, not homosexuality or two loving consenting adults.

(Change *** to www)
***.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm
***.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html
***.christchapel.com/reclaiming.html
***.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php
***.gaychristian101.com/
***.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template;=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2121
***.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html
***.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
***.goodhopemcc.org/spirituality/sexuality-and-bible/homosexuality-not-a-sin-not-a-sickness.html

Homosexuality is not a choice. Just like you don’t choose the color of your skin, you cannot choose whom you are sexually attracted to. Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. Most gay people will tell you its not a choice. Common sense will tell you its not a choice. While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.

(Change *** to www)
***-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
***.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
Gay, Straight Men’s Brain Responses Differ
***.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
***.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
***.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. “Nurture” may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological.

And it should also be noted that:
“It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organizations do believe it is impossible to change a person’s sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association.”

This was taken from another poster that shows why we need to legalize gay marriage. If you don’t feel for this person after reading it, you simply aren’t human.

“I am not sure what our President thinks of this dicission but coming from a poor family and knowing what discrimination is all about I would assume he would not care if “Gays” have equal rights. The whole reason why they are asking for rights to be considered married is from the same reason why I would be for it. My own life partner commited suicide in our home with a gun to his heart. After a 28 year union I was deprived to even go his funeral. We had two plots next to each other. But because we did not have a marriage cirtificate “(Legal Document)” of our union his mother had him cremated and his ashes taken back to Missouri where we came from. That is only one example how painful it is. His suicide tramatized me so much and her disregard for my feelings only added to my heartach. That happened on March 21 of 2007 and I still cannot type this without crying for the trauma I have to endure each day. Oh did I mention I am in an electric wheelchair for life? Yes I am and it is very diffacult to find another mate when you are 58 and in a wheelchair. “

The National Library of Medicine pubs confirm that sexual orientation is natural, biologically induced in the first trimester of pregnancy, morally neutral, immutable, neither contagious nor learned, bearing no relation to an individuals ability to form deep and lasting relationships, to parent children, to work or to contribute to society.

From the American Psychological Association: homosexuality is normal; homosexual relationships are normal.

The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association have endorsed civil marriage for same-sex couples because marriage strengthens mental and physical health and longevity of couples, and provides greater legal and financial security for children, parents and seniors.

America’s premier child/mental health associations endorse marriage equality.

from Bill Foley

May I suggest a natural argument vs same-sex acts and so-called “marriage” between two persons of the same sex.
The basis is THE PARTS DO NOT FIT.
This applies to the psychological, emotional, and spiritual aspects—three areas in which a man and a woman do fit.
The other facet is the physical dimension. The sexual/generative parts of the male and female bodies do fit, THEY ARE MEANT FOR EACH OTHER LIKE A LOCK AND A KEY, and this fit is IN ACCORD WITH NATURE. This natural fit also follows a natural purpose, namely, the generation of a human life. The sexual/generative parts of two males or of two females DO NOT FIT and do not fulfill the natural purpose of generating human life.

But Leviticus says absolutely nothing about a woman lying with another woman.

Neither does any other passage in the Bible. Yes, that includes Romans 1:26. Although that passage could be broadly interpreted to include lesbianism, that isn’t what St. Paul was talking about. Paul’s euphemism “exchanging the natural use for that which is against nature” refers to a very specific “vile perversion” that the women were practicing with men, not other women. (Hint: It’s the exact same thing the men were doing with each other.) This heterosexual act is a far riskier sexual practice than lesbianism and far more likely to be thought of as “vile” by a good first century Jew like Paul. All other references to homosexuality in the Bible, New and Old Testament, refer specifically to male homosexuality.

The lesbian couples I know are far more like heterosexuals (and relatively dull heterosexuals at that) than they are like gay men. Lesbian sex is a fairly low risk activity that 90% or so of heterosexual couples engage in as well. Lesbianism and male homosexuality are completely different and should not be lumped together.

I see shadow_man indulged in what Akin was talking about by “machine gun” apologetics. Anyone want to bother with this data dump?

But Leviticus says absolutely nothing about a woman lying with another woman. And if the Catholic Church were a Sola Scriptura protestent denomination, that might actually mean something.

Did anybody else notice how much Dan Savage’s image resembled “The Great and Terrible Oz”?  When he’s really just a bumbling charlatan hiding behind a curtain of our own society’s making?

Ok, I’ll deal with one of shadow_man’s absurdities if some others can handle the rest. The one where he relates the story of the suicide and the person in the wheelchair. I would say yes, I do feel for that situation, so assuming I pass the human test he insists it is, perhaps we can move on to the fact that little of the account supports the necessity of same-sex marriage. The most it argues for is making sure you have all your legal documents in order (and that does not necessarily mean a marriage certificate) as soon as possible in case of untimely death. Yes, being in a wheelchair for life is sad and something none of us would wish on our worst enemy, but again, this doesn’t prove the necessity of same-sex marriage. Rather it reads more like rhetorical emotional blackmail than an actual argument.

Was the talk about “bullying” or about how “hateful” the Bible is? Now, if the man has problems with the Scriptures, that is his business, but advertising a talk on bullying and then using that talk to attack believers is a bit too rich for my taste, whatever one’s position happens to be on the subject of homosexuality.

We don’t really need to use the Bible when talking about homosexuality, birth control etc. Because many don’t believe the teachings of the bible and don’t believe it’s Author is God it is not a helpful argument.  Homosexuality is against natural law and biology.  One of the reasons for marriage is pro-creation - and two homosexuals can never fulfill this.  Two men or two women can’t make a baby and that’s the end of the argument.  Marriage is both unitive and pro-creative and to deny one of these is to deny its purpose and meaning.

Bill Foley: It’s obvious you know nothing about homosexuality. The parts do fit. I’ve never had a problem sexually with my boyfriend with the parts “not fitting” In fact, there is a spot in there that makes it pleasurable for both partners. God designed our bodies for both heterosexuals and homosexuals. At least research something before you talk about it and act like you know what you’re talking about =)

Scott W.: Notice how you can’t refute a single thing i wrote =)

Scott W.: Actually, that is to show the inequalities between the lack of same-sex marriage. Had it been a heterosexual couple, that wouldn’t have been an issue.

Lorraine Shelstad: Homosexuality by definition is natural. The definition of natural is “having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature”. Homosexuality occurs in over thousands of species of animals in nature, so by definition, it’s natural. Now, you are implying that anything you consider “unnatural” is wrong or bad. So let me ask you this. Do you use a computer, drive a car, or ever flown an airplane? I know for a fact you do the first one. Those are all unnatural things. Humans are meant to communicate naturally by mouth, not artificially by keyboard. Humans are meant to travel by our God given feet, not some artificial mechanical car. Humans are not meant to fly, as evidenced by our lack of natural wings. Yet you do those things anyway right? Hypocrite much?

Your procreation argument goes down the toilet for one simple reason: Procreation is not a requirement of marriage. I know many heterosexual couples that are married and can’t or choose not to have children. Also, the notion that homosexuals can’t procreate is false. Last time i checked, gay females still produce egg, and gay males still produce sperm. There are methods like artificial insemination, surrogency, and IVF that can easily lead to a kid if need be. Now if you’re going to argue that those methods are “unnatural”, i reply again with the same question. Do you use a computer, drive a car, or ever flown an airplane? =)

I saw a fair bit of anti-gay (or perceived gay) bullying in high school, some in college too. However, I never saw that any of it was religiously motivated. The bullies didn’t cite the bible or anything to do with religion, and I can’t think of a single bully that had any authentic religious commitment. If anything, those who were committed to religion itself (in whatever form) were looked upon as being ipso facto suspect of being queer, or at least something less than masculine. 

So for Savage to draw any sort of close connection between anti-gay bullying and Christianity or religion in general is absurd. Boys who are perceived as gay are ostracized and bullied anywhere, even in cultures where there is no Christianity. That doesn’t make it right, but the blame lies elsewhere.

Mr. Savage isn’t a gay activist. Instead, he writes about human sexuality, including homosexuality. However, he is not a sane individual. He believes that the cornerstone of sex is consent, whereas the real cornerstone of sex is obviously love. And he tried to give someone the flu - which is dangerous, not unlike giving someone AIDs - and tried to get himself in a caucus - an illegal activity, since he wasn’t a resident of the state. I have yet to find anything about him feeling remorse for his actions, so, I’m going to assume he’s insane. And an insane person shouldn’t be trusted.

“But Leviticus says absolutely nothing about a woman lying with another woman. And if the Catholic Church were a Sola Scriptura protestent denomination, that might actually mean something.”

But do you ever wonder WHY the scriptures are completely silent on this issue?

LEVITICUS for NATURAL FAMILY PLANNING, sex times forbidden, ORTHODOX still use that and have rules about it, I forget the hebrew word for it. There is SFA in the OT about women lying with women, men yes, AND death penalty for sex for different female offenders. That is part of the pre-jewish culture, adopted by Moses and still in use in Islam as we know, most people are not aware of that, a lot of it-cutting hands off and stoning is in the OT.

I feel the need to respond to shadow_man on his point that “the parts do fit.” Excuse me if this is TMI, but as a female, I have had male partners want to try that type of sex. When I was younger I did allow it a few times. Never again. While it can be pleasurable, it’s only once you get past the initial PAIN. And you need to use external “help” to get there. And it messes with your body - in other words, if you do that enough times you’re going to need a lot of Preparation H. Having experienced “natural” sex and the other kind, it’s clear what nature intended.

That said, I’m Episcopal, I’m fine with our gay priests, and I will vote for gay rights. But the gay lobby is kidding itself if it thinks that everyone is going to magically agree that homosexuality is equivalent to hetereosexuality given the biology.

Scott W.: Notice how you can’t refute a single thing i wrote =)

I can refute every jot and tittle. But you data dumped. Pick one issue at a time and we can discuss it. For instance you, said, “Actually, that is to show the inequalities between the lack of same-sex marriage. Had it been a heterosexual couple, that wouldn’t have been an issue.” The problem is, same-sex marriages are lies with a legal rubber stamp. What these two people had was a relationship based not on love, but on lust. 

The Natural in the human and animal world is not accurate. Some birds pair and mate for life. Some males dominate the females and fathers all the offspring. Parts fitting together is spurious, they are designed for certain places- sexual release is not the point of human or even animal genitality.  some animals are fertile for only a few days a year, and some males will not mount a female if she is already pregnant. Surrogate motherhood, and donor sperm and same-gender adoptions are common but is that and so much else advoated on here natural or normal. Male animals kill males of their own species- should that be allowed for humans when men fight over a woman?? Use common sense and get accurate facts about the estent of homosexuality in the animal world. Instinct versus human reason and Divine creation are the best teachers.

HOMOS is from the Greek for SAME, not the Latin for man, or human to be more precise which is HOMO. Man lying with man as with a woman, in the OT is condemned, and sodomy from Sodom, same-gender activity for men, “buggery” the English word for sodomy, and such are all consistent with the OT and St Paul in the NT condemming that type of activity that has not been repented. The word assassination is Arabic in its root, but the killing of a king or ruler was seen as an evil deed and condemned long before that word came into the English language,

Exactly LoneThinker. Natural is not synonymous with the animal kingdom. Natural Law does not mean merely that examples can be found in nature. By that standard lopping your spouse’s head off after mating and eating it would be morally acceptable. And the examples of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom don’t help the case for homosexual acts in humans at all as they are either done to dominate another animal, are caused by aberrant stimuli, etc. There is no homosexual instinct in animals, and none normally do it to the exclusion of heterosexual behavior. This is before even considering that it is bad science to read human motivations an emotions into animals and like the first exampe I gave is a dumb guide for determining acceptable behavior for morally culpable humans. We are all called to chastity and the bottom line of that is that sexual contact is only morally acceptable when it is between and man and woman married to each other. It’s only difficult if you want it to be.

jane: If you are experiencing that much pain, you are doing it incorrectly. There is very little pain. You need to loosen up, use lube, relax. This isn’t an issue of “the parts not fitting”, it’s an issue of you being inexperienced with anal intercourse. Me and my boyfriend have done it plenty of times, and other gay people do it for decades, and there is no problems whatsoever.

As for equivalence. Heterosexuality is exactly the same with homosexuality with the exception of whom the person is attracted to. Other than that, there’s no difference between the sexual orientations.

Scott W.: Lol, and how exactly would you know the relationship was based on lust rather than love? Seems you don’t know much about homosexuality or homosexual couples =)

mr. savage was very upset abouth the suicide of the high scool lad who comitted suicide over bullying for being the good lord creature you make no mentioned of that,

LoneThinker: You can’t change a definition to suit your needs =) Natural by definition means of occurring in nature. Nothing more. Homosexuality occurs in nature, which is enough to fulfill the definition of whether or not it’s natural. Lol, and who are you to decide where the parts go? By your logic, oral sex should be banned then, because that part is not “designed” to go into the mouth, yet the vast majority of heterosexuals do this as well. So i guess heterosexuals are unnatural too by your logic hmm? Whether or not you find something normal is merely your opinion. Just because something is not in the majority doesn’t mean it’s not normal. Otherwise, you would be claiming left-handed people, blue-eyed people (including Jesus), curly haired people, and blacks in America are not normal then. You also mention that male animals kill males of their own species. Lol, so you’re saying humans don’t kill other people? Where is this disney world you live in? I’d like to join :D And actually, you might want to read on articles, where various animals practice homosexuality even with female members present.

(Change *** to www)
***.news-medical.net/?id=20718
***.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101990426-23309,00.html
***.livescience.com/animals/080516-gay-animals.html
***.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL
***.commondreams.org/headlines06/1012-01.htm

(Change ** to en)
**.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sexual_social_behavior
**.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

Oh one last thing. You forget that humans are animals too =) Science is great isn’t it? ^_^

Scott W.: Lol, and how exactly would you know the relationship was based on lust rather than love? Seems you don’t know much about homosexuality or homosexual couples =)

The facts tell me it is lust rather than love. Did these two men engage in homosexual sex? Then it is lust and whaterver genuine love they had was poisoned by it. As far as not knowing much about homosexuality or homosexual couples let me ask, how much do I have to know about bank robbery and bank robbers before I can say that stealing is wrong? 

LoneThinker: You’re taking leviticus heavily out of context. Let’s examine it when you don’t take it out of context.

Homosexuality is not a sin

Leviticus is constantly taken out of context. These two lines do not condemn homosexuals when you examine Leviticus as a whole and relate the historical times.

Leviticus 18:22:
“You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination.”

Leviticus 20:13:
“If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death.”

Both of these verses refer to heterosexuals who participated in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks, not homosexuals, there is absolutely no mention of sexual orientation or homosexuality. Also, the word abomination was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or dealing with any type idol worship.

The Hebrew word “toevah” was used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. “Toevah” has been translated in our Bibles as “abomination” or “detestable”. The “toevah” was used throughout the Old Testament for activity involving ethnic contamination and religious idolatry. “Toevah” refers to things that were ritually unclean - like eating pork.

It is significant that another Hebrew word, “zimah,” also translated “abomination,” which means intrinsic evil or evil by its very nature, was not used in Leviticus 18:22, or Leviticus 20:13.

It is also significant that female homosexual relationships are not mentioned in the old testament. That’s because they aren’t talking about sexual orientation, they are talking about idolatrous practices.

Scott W.: Your “facts” are merely opinion unsubstantiated by facts :) Lol, notice how when you got nothing against homosexuality, you start comparing it to irrelevant things?

Also, since you brought up the sin’s of sodom, let’s examine that as well. Seems you have very little understanding of the very book you’re using as a weapon.

The Sodom Story - Genesis 19:1-29
Homophobic Viewpoint: “Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality.”
Scriptural Viewpoint: Sodom was a lush beautiful region of land whose inhabitants had known the goodness of God. Despite their exposure to, experience with, and witness of the one true loving Creator, the people of Sodom had rejected a relationship with God, and turned to numerous types of idolatry. When God’s messengers were sent to the city, the men of Sodom responded by threatening the ultimate act of violent abuse, murder, disrespect and humiliation. They were going to RAPE God’s representatives.

All other Old and New Testament references to Sodom involved the sins of idolatry, inhospitality, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God’s messengers. There are no references to same sex acts or homosexuality.

How you get male/male sex out of all of that is simply laughable.

i am a cradle born rc, i stand behind former president carter jesus never spoke about gay men and women, being gay is a genetic issue like someone being blind, not every person comes into this world perfect, just remember that god loves all his creatures and he has allowed some humans to be born with same aexattraction. no human is perfect, hitler murdered many gay men, every fanily in america and probably in the world has a relative who is gay

Scott W.: Your “facts” are merely opinion unsubstantiated by facts :) Lol, notice how when you got nothing against homosexuality, you start comparing it to irrelevant things?

It isn’t irrelevant. Your implied that I couldn’t say that homosexual acts were wrong because I didn’t know enough about homosexuals or homosexual couples, so I gave an analogy to show your fallacious reasoning.

mr. savage was very upset abouth the suicide of the high scool lad who comitted suicide over bullying for being the good lord creature you make no mentioned of that,

Because I don’t think anyone disputes that it is upsetting. Why talk about what no one is going to argue against?

Here is a source for those wonder about these…ahh…creative interpretations of Leviticus: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/lev18.html in which the idea that it only applies to idolotry is ludicrous because it also condemns bestiality and that forces the liberal to admit that sex with animals is ok as long as it is not part of a religious rite.

Scott W.: Saying homosexuality is wrong without proving it shows your unsubstantiated facts. Lol, and that site you referenced, does not mention any of the points i addressed in my leviticus post. Also, it does not admit that sex with animals is ok because it was part of the idolatrous ritual. You are making an assumption, which are not facts =)

I will leave to the readers to review my link and decide for themselves.

Scott W.: Sure :) Your link does not address most of the historical aspects or the other context of the Bible. Another good example is corinthians also from that time period with furthers the interpretation:

Homosexuality is not a sin.

Corinthians 6:9-11
Let us examine that very closely.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakoi], nor homosexual offenders [arsenokoites], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

First of all, before we address this line, let us consider one thing. Supposedly taken from a 2000+ year old book, understand that the word “homosexual” was not coined until 1869 by Austrian-born novelist Karl-Maria Kertbeny. So how it happens to be included in a true reading of the particular biblical passage should make you ponder how accurate the interpretation actually is. So man changing the words of the Bible to conveniently spread hate? I think so.

Now onto the interpretation, i’ve included the original Greek words as well where it’s relevant.

Paul was attempting to educate the new Christians in Corinth as to what Godly living was all about. In verses 9-10, he listed ways of living that were not compatible with a Christ-centered life. In verse 11, Paul reminded them that they had been saved out of those destructive ways. There are two Greek words in I Corinthians 6:9, which sometimes are translated with a homosexual connotation.

First word, “malakoi” or “malakos” - it literally means soft or mushy; it can mean spineless, wishy-washy or without backbone. “Malakoi” was used four other times in the New Testament and it always meant “soft.” The context of I Corinthians seems to imply a moral softness or decadence, a failure to stand up for what is right and godly. It is significant that for several hundred years there was no sexual connotation assigned to this word.

Second word, “arsenokoitai” or “arsenokoites” - it literally means, “males having sex.” Early commentaries on I Corinthians related “arsenokoitai” to male temple prostitutes and to men having sex with boys. (Idolatrous prostitution and pedophilia are always wrong for those seeking to honor God.)

Homosexual relationships were known in the Greco-Roman culture of Paul’s day. The Greek word commonly used in reference to adult male same sex partners was “arrenokoites.” Paul did not use this word. Instead, he created his own, “arsenokoitai.” If Paul had intended to condemn all adult male same sex partners, he would have used the common word for it.

Hey, all you gay trollers out there: perhaps you’ve never heard of this, from I believe, the seven spiritual works of mercy: “ADMONISH THE SINNER,” which is precisely what those of good will are attempting to do when reminding the sexually active gay blades when they do what they do, that they are very liable to GBS, STD’S, ETC.,ETC., not that heteros are not liable to STD’S, etc., but GBS & all the abberant diseases that only seem to inflict gays who are promiscuous, not to mention the ghastly AIDS virus, I know very few heteros who have actually contracted it, because homosexuality is DEVIANT!, perhaps it needs to be said that way. Doesn’t mean that we’re HATEFUL for saying it. There are consequences to and for ALL ACTIONS in life, & These diseases are the consequence of sinning, or can be, from a perverted point oF view, which is the homosexual zitgeist. Thanx, and GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE

Cue another copy-and-paste in 4, 3, 2, 1….

Shadow_Man: If we want to know how the authors of the Constitution felt about a certain issue, we read their other writings and the writings of their contemporaries. From the very beginning the Fathers of the Church and the Church herself have condemned homosexual acts and fornication. Period, dot, full stop. If you want to try and wrangle Scripture to condone your sinful acts, nobody is going to stop you. You are in my prayers, brother.

Just a few points (and pardon me if some of it may be disconnected or disjointed I am NO scholar or theolgian!)

I read and saw Mr. Akin’s video. I didn’t bother watching the Dan Savage clip because I used to read his stuff almost religiously years ago. I gave it up and never bothered again!

With that said, I scanned many (though not all the comments)and was amazed at what I read. I’d like to point out that - in respect to scripture - we as Catholics don’t live by Scripture alone. From what can tell, no one pointed this out to Mr Akin’s detractors. We live our faith through a three-fold lens, so to speak: Scripture, Tradition, and the teaching authority given to the apostles by our Lord (aka, Magisterium). We TRUST the Holy Spirit - to lead us to all truth as our Lord promises (John 16:12-13). That means that no one person has the authority to give out opinions not in sync with REVEALED truth as delineated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

With that said, I think lots of folks just don’t get the anger and frustration of angry people with Same-Sex Attraction. It’s important to acknowledge the pain and confusion INHERENT in someone with SSA. At heart of the pain (in my humble opinion) is the reality that people with SSA are seeking some sense of normalcy (as do us all) in the only way they know how: with another human being. But, while heterosexuals will ALWAYS have the opportunity of marriage and children, that wonderful and precious gift is denied them. So where does that leave them? In the eyes of many, perpetually alone and lonely. It is a constant Calvary with no end in sight (before anyone comments on this, imagine yourself in that position!) While this attitude and disposition may be accepted by many Christians as an offering to the Lord and for the sake of the Kingdom, MANY with SSA are NOT Christian and do not understand or accept this attitude/disposition.

Another reason for the anger of many with SSA is the unfortunate twisting of Holy Scripture resulting in the shameful attitudes, mistreatment, rejection of and many crimes we have seen throughout history.

While none of us certainly do not have all the answers, let’s at least try to have some compassion and understanding when a gay angry (or not-so-angry) person demands rights that may are a bit out of joint.

Same Sex “Marriage” is NOT something I would accept or go for, but I think - upon further reflection - we would all certainly understand. It is the cry for human connection and longing. COURAGE and groups like it may have the answers needed, but if we are to change our culture, Christians have to step into the Lord’s sandals and not just ask themselves “WWJD?” but take it one step further: love others into the kingdom by speaking love in truth AND giving them HOPE that comes from a life in Christ and true Christian companionship.

“From what can tell, no one pointed this out to Mr Akin’s detractors.” I did at 10:50PM. I so did Theophilius recently if indirectly. Granted it was a quip and not a full-developed response, but it’s there. :) And you are absolutely right—all these copy-and-paste data dumps prove is that you can find people out there that can interpret Scripture differently. So what else is new? Probably more denominations splitting off like paramecium, that’s what. P.S. I’m not going to bother with any more of these spams (Ecce spamnus dei!), if someone else thinks one of them is a real crusher, I might look into it if you can stick to one subject at a time.

I sat in on a talk by Madelyn Murray O’Hare when I was a junior at UT Austin (year 1976). She was a very vulgar mouthed woman who insulted just about everyone’s sensitivities. Many walked out. The most peculiar thing is that at her feet were her grandchildren, and the expletives continued at them when they got in her way. I am thoroughly convinced that Madelyn Murray O’Hare (I did eventually walk out) had some diabolical problems. I’ve never said this about anyone before in my life. May God rest her soul.

Romans Chapter 1:26-32
[26] For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is====filthy,===and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. [28] And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; [29] Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, [30] Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
-Douay-Rheims Public Domain Bible

If that is not against gay and lesbian acts my aunt is a pink rhino.

The bible does reference lesbian acts in Romans chapter 1:26
[26] For this cause God gave them over to shameful affections. For their ~~women~~ have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.

As a Christian, one should reject Savage’s attempt at leadership now that he has made clear his ignorance, selfishness, and disobedience toward the authority of God found in Sacred Scripture.  He leads children to reject the Bible, and therefore, reject Jesus Christ.

That stated, we should not encourage children to embrace anything that is unnatural or abnormal, like homosexuality.  However, we should monitor our children carefully and help them through phases of sexual ambiguity and the challenge of puberty with the utmost compassion like a mother helps a child to be weaned from breast-feeding or to walk on its own.  We should not shame them for their weakness, but help them become stronger and properly and virtuously oriented.

to shadow_man, you will notice that the Bible translations approved for use by the Catholic Church tend to avoid the use of the term “homosexual” but use words like “sexual pervert” and “boy prostitute” instead - which would follow the intent of St. Paul.  “Sexual pervert” is a much more convincing word which gets everyone’s attention as to just how bad it really is.

Definitions for “perverse” which support St. Paul’s description of anything contrary to normal sexual relations (from Merriam Webster):

a : turned away from what is right or good : corrupt
b : improper, incorrect
c : contrary to the evidence or the direction of the judge on a point of law
2a : obstinate in opposing what is right, reasonable, or accepted : wrongheaded
b : arising from or indicative of stubbornness or obstinacy

On slavery, I found an excellent link here: http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/slavery-in-the-bible-25/ that demonstrates the Bible condemned chattel slavery and that the passages about Masters treating their slaves was under their system of indentures. Scroll to the bottom in the comments as he handles hoary objections.

instead of quibbling over whether homosexual acts are moral, which as Catholics, we already know the answer to, let’s turn to the fact that Mr Savage billed his address to high school journalists as an anti bullying campaign.  We can all agree that bullying is horrible, painful and should be condemned.  However, under cover of an innocent speech, he used the occasion to push a homosexual agenda.  In doing so, he attacked sacred scripture, offended Christians, and bullied young people who walked out.  His speech was laced with profanity.  Arguing over whether homosexual acts are “normal” and acceptable is a smokescreen to hide the real agenda of anti bullying campaigns.

@Abhay,

The RCC is not governed by the theory of Sola Scritura. That is, we do not always take a litteral view of scripture. And even Christ didn’t come to free the slaves of his day from thier human bondage. But he did come to free men from thier spirtual bondage to Sin. Homosexuality was most certainly practiced in the pagan societies of the Roman Empire. Adultery and fornication were also widely practiced. Chirst condemned all Sin, not just Homosexuality. And the RCC has condemned these sins from its inception. What Savage and people like you wish to do is convince the World that Chirst is wrong.

markrite: I got a nice scientific fact for you bro =) The vast majority of the world’s AIDS is among heterosexuals in Africa.

Scott W.: That was a nice refute! I’m sure to use your technique for my future endeavors.

Tammy: Ahhh, pulling out line and line out of context i see. Let’s examine Romans when you don’t take it out of context.

Homosexuality is not a sin.

Letters from the Apostle Paul Romans

If taken out of context, this passage seems to condemn homosexuals. However, when Romans 1:26-27 is considered within the context of Romans 1:16 through Romans 2:16, the Scriptures clearly present a different teaching.

Paul was writing to the church in Rome. The Roman church had become troubled by divisions related to spiritual pride. Paul was addressing the Christians in Rome and teaching about the pagans in Rome. After declaring the power of Christ’s gospel to save all, he pointed out that the religious people of Rome had refused to even acknowledge GOD as one of their many gods. They had turned their backs on the one true living God and worshiped handmade idols. Paul explained that as a result of their idolatry, every part of their lives had become corrupt and vile.

Paul then told the Roman Christians that they were not to judge others. To judge others is to condemn yourself (Romans 2:1). Christians are to love others out of their brokenness and into the healing wholeness that is found in Jesus Christ.

The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as “natural/unnatural”, relates to that which is against one’s own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul’s concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by “nature.” Paul emphasized that IDOLATRY (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others.

It would help if you knew what the culture was like back then. In those times, male-male intercourse was a result of idol worship. Back then, it was a common practice of cult priests and priestesses to submit to sexual acts with either gender as part of the worship of their deities. Therefore, such acts were considered sinful and debauchery. It would be the same if it were hetero people involved in cultic sex, prostitution or sexual abuse of minors.

Now I’m pretty sure that two guys engaging in sex these days are NOT idol worshipers. In fact, 99% of the time, it is a physical act of love; just like any hetero couples.

Taylor: Sexual pervert referred to practices such as rape, idolatry, etc, not homosexuality. Not once is homosexuality alone condemned in the Bible. The few times it’s mentioned, it’s in conjunction with idolatry or some other sin.

Susy: You mean hide the real facts to condone your anti-gay agenda (which btw is becoming quickly obsolete as the vast majority of us under 30 support same-sex marriage and homosexuality is normal to us. Even most religious folk under 30 don’t see homosexuality as a “sin”)

Unlike the various Protestant denominations, in the Catholic Church,  the interpretation of Scripture is settled, and has been for Centuries.  So putting forward various “plausible” spins on it is a waste of time.  In the Catholic Church homosexual acts are sinful.  And not only in the Catholic church and various other Christian denominations, but across time, cultures, and religions you will find the same approbation against homosexual acts. Please look up homosexuality in Islam.  There are nearly as many Muslims in the world as Christians, however, you will find it harder going to convince them of your position.  To find a cogent presentation of human sexuality, I refer you to John Paul II’s ‘Theology of the Body.”. If you read this, it just may give you a whole new tightly ordered outlook.

Shadowman-it doesn’t matter what people under 30 believe about homosexual behavior, if it is a sin, then it is. And we have all heard the pro-homosexual agenda’s spin on various biblical versus trying to explain away what is so clear, and what the Church has interpreted these verses to mean for the past 2000 years. But you are correct about one thing- the Church does NOT say that homosexuality, or having those attractions for members of the same sex is a sin, just the acting out of those desires as sin, just as heterosexuals can sin sexually as well.

shadow_man:  you are actually being unscholarly and irrational in your responses, at least to me.  You really don’t have a grasp of the reality of Scripture.  That’s the truth.  You need to, for the sake of your soul, stop and pray and study and ask for understanding and Grace from God.  As you can see from the below one-liner from St. Paul, he was clearly intending that men having relations with men is a perversion (which had nothing to do with rape or idolatry as you say above):

“and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”
[Romans 1-27, RSV Holy Bible]

Men having relations with men is exactly what it is and the “receiving in their own persons the due penalty” is exactly what it is.

Please slow down, listen, pray, ask for humility and understanding and the grace to progress spiritually and to move toward that happiness which comes with certain Truth.

@shadow_man, homosexual sex is contraceptive in nature.  Catholics don’t dig contra.  Therefore, we dont dig homosexual acts.  Similarly, sexual indulgence among husbands and wives, if it does not “finish” in the right location, is just as perverted… It’s not like living a chaste life is easy on anybody!

“The head of an anti-bullying campaign tells a bunch of kids they are “pansy @ssed” for standing up for their beliefs and then sarcastically apologizes for hurting their feelings. And then calls Christians hypocrites. Real nice.”
.
Unfortunately Dan Savage *is* a bully.  He is right to be angry at hypocrites and bullies but he is wrong to take out his anger in bullying others.  He obviously feels powerless and weak, and so has to attack others with violence of all kinds.  I appreciate him for his “It Gets Better” Campaign, but unfortunately after everything I have read about him, including about his relationship with his partner, I believe that he is ALSO a childlike and manipulative person. 

“The bible does reference lesbian acts in Romans chapter 1:26
[26] For this cause God gave them over to shameful affections. For their ~~women~~ have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. [27] And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.”
.
The euphemism “changed the natural use into that which is against nature” is vague to us, but had a very specific meaning to Paul’s readers. It refers to heterosexual anal intercourse, not lesbianism. This is something women are doing with men, not with each other. It was a form of birth control in the ancient world, commonly used by prostitutes. The idea that it refers to lesbianism is a very modern interpretation. While Paul could be interpreted to be broadly referring to all unnatural sex acts, he is talking about a very specific one in the passage.
.
To Paul, buggery, not homosexuality, is the ultimate sign of man’s fallen nature. And if you think about it from a health and sanitary perspective, this makes far more sense. Anal intercourse is a risky, unsanitary, and often uncomfortable activity, lesbian sex is not. Indeed, the ancients didn’t view anything two women could do as “sex”, since in their view, sex required a penis.
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The various risks associated with anal intercourse are probably why the Bible condemns male homosexuality but says nothing about lesbianism.

Furthermore, the phrase “in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women have burned in their lusts one towards another” implies that the men are engaging in the same perverse act with each other that they were with the women.
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Paul’s writing is to show a continued downward progression in humanity: Men give up natural sex with women for unnatural sex with women, then engage in the same unnatural sex act with each other.

Here is Robort Gagnon’s article: http://robgagnon.net/NicholasKristofGodAndSex.htm which answers many of the stock objections and specifically the baloney that lesbianism is exempt. Ain’t no way around it, all homosexual acts are offenses against chastity.

joanp62: Notice how you could not refute a single point i made, since i clearly proved that homosexuality is not a sin citing the works of numerous biblical scholars and historians. I also clearly proved how you take biblical passages out of context to condone your anti-gay views. They did the same thing in the past with regards to slavery and keeping woman as 2nd class citizens.

Taylor: There is nothing unscholarly or irrational about my responses. I make a point and back it up with evidence in a good-mannered way. I can tell you didn’t even read my posts, because you would have seen that i reference numerous biblical scholars and historians. You also clearly prove my point. You are taking one line out of Romans (which i clearly explained and proved does not refer to homosexuality), while ignoring the rest of the passage as well as the historical and biblical context. That, my friend, is what we call taking things out of context. It’s also obvious you know nothing about the historical time, where heterosexual men would have such rituals to worship other Gods. Hence, idolatry is being condemned, not homosexuality.

Scott W.: Lol, did you just reference Robert Gagnon, prolific anti-gay, evangelical Christian author? Before i continue, for the record, neither homosexuality between men or women is a sin. It’s already been proven by biblical scholars.

Now, let us examine Robert Gagnon and why he is not a credible source. 

Most of his information is either out of context, or he makes assumptions. For example, he points out a lot of passages on heterosexual marriages mentioned in the Bible, and assumes that since they talk about heterosexual marriages, all homosexual marriages are condemned. That is not only an assumption, but a wrong one at that, since the Bible never specifically condemns homosexual marriages. That alone makes you ponder the validity of his book.

One of his arguments on gay marriage that proves this:
(Replace *** with www)
http://***.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/GagnonGayMarriage1.php

In this article, he states a lot of things without providing any evidence and things that clearly show his anti-gay stance. He tries to associate it with irrelevant things, such as incest and polygamy, and claims gay marriage “a contradiction of terms”

He then tries to cite scripture and pulls out verses that talk about heterosexual relationships and marriages. Again, none of those verses condemn homosexual relationships and he is making another blind assumption.

Then scrolling down, he calls homosexual desire “sexual narcissism or sexual self-deception” and makes statements that are clearly not supported by any valid psychological, medical, or scientific organization.

This proves that he is not only highly anti-gay, but a lot of his information lacks evidence, makes assumptions, and is contrary to actual science/psychology. That immediately should send red light signals on his interpretations of the Bible in his book.

Lol, just to make sure everyone understands this sentence in my previous post, because i read over it and it’s poorly written and might need clarification:

“Before i continue, for the record, neither homosexuality between men or women is a sin. It’s already been proven by biblical scholars.”

What it’s saying is that both male homosexuality and female homosexuality is NOT a sin. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

If you are a scholar and you oppose shadow-man’s views you are anti-gay so your arguments have no validity.
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Please, shadow-man, tell us what else is not a sin.
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Shadow-man reminds me of a story I hear once. A stranger came to see a priest. The stranger said “I committed adultery but I’m NOT sorry.” This was supposed to shock the priest. The priest replied, “If you are God, congratulations. Otherwise, watch out.”

Interesting that shadow_man conveniently ignored my point about contra…. It makes all his biblical “erudition” moot.

Yet one more reason why people don’t take the GBLTQIACPBFNTBAO (Gay, Bi-Sexual, Lesbian, Transgender, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Curious, Pansexual, Beastial, Furry, NAMBLA and To.Be.Announced.Orientation) community seriously. Dan Savage is making the GBLTQIACPBFNTBAO community look like a bunch of narrow-minded name-callers.

@shadow_man: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” Matthew 5:17-18

Just a thought. In all sincerity, God bless you.

Shadowman- lol yourself. You have NOT proven that homosexual ACTS are NOT sinful according to the bible. You can say it over and over that homosexuality is not a sin, and I agree with that. It is homosexual ACTS that are a SIN. This has been clearly demonstrated and explained to you by many commenting here, with references also. Your arguments against homosexual acts being sinful have been made by others long before you, and have been found wanting, and have been rebutted by more knowledgeable people than I. You make the same arguments that have been made over and over again by others who are pro-gay, and it is really getting quite boring.

It makes all his biblical “erudition” moot

That’s because it’s not erudition at all but copy-and-pastes from other places. He’s a troll people. Stop feeding.

Hence the quotes. The dude is obviously not a scholar.  However, I have respect for him because he was the least insulting of most of the pro-gay commenters.  My compassionate nature comes out when people just want to be loved despite a trait that they cannot help. 
May God bless shadowman, may he find what he is looking for.

@Katheryn: AMEN!!!

@Grayson: Intersex is a real disorder. People are born with ambiguous genitalia or both male and female “parts”.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
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In the past, they were all surgically made into females because that was the easier surgery and it was thought that gender was entirely a social construct. Unfortunately, this was a mistake as some were clearly more male than female.
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What is the Church’s position on intersexed individuals? Does anyone know?

Scott W.: Apparently Mr. Gagnon is not familiar with St. Augustine’s or Clement of Alexandria’s commentary on the passage. Both opposed lesbian relations, but neither interpreted Romans 1:26 to be referring to them.

I for one am much grateful for the AIDS Virus.

@Innocent Smith: That comment is just plain evil and vile. May our Good Lord have mercy on your soul.

Mr. Savage, speaking to impressionable and perhaps unknowledgeable teens said that the “Bible got it wrong about slavery so if it got something so basic wrong its wrong about alot.” Or words to that affect.  But people need to know the Bible didn’t get it wrong about slavery.  Jesus came to tell us about Our Father and to reconcile us to Him and open us up to His grace.  He himself said to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to render unto God what is God’s.  Slavery is Ceasar’s. It’s a creation of a power structure no matter how it is lived out, whether it’s Jewish, Romans or whatever.  Jesus and St. Paul weren’t concerned with a person’s status by human standards so they weren’t aghast at slaves or prostitutes or tax collectors.  These are “Ceasar” things.  They were concerned with the heart and soul. The God things. The world could call you a slave or a prostitute or a tax collector, but if you had found Jesus and had been converted that was a lie. No non-Christian might understand it, but no matter how society looked at you, you became a new creation and you knew it.  Life is different after a conversion experience.  You lived (and still do today), by grace!  You had cast off (and should still now cast off) your former ways and follow Jesus’ commandments and His way.  Mr. Savage is either spinning this for his own purposes or unaware of this.  So Paul speaks of Onesimus, I think, the slave he is returning to one of the cities he had formed a church in, and he asks the people to accept this man not as a slave, but as he truly is, Paul’s brother and faithful helper and a Christian convert.  Whether people lived out their Christianity as slaves or freemen was never the point.  That is a purely societal classification to Jesus and Paul, I think.  They would prefer no slavery, but they don’t see the classification as a hindrance to living a grace-filled Christian life. (If you’re a master, remember you will answer for it.  If you are a slave, remember to be obedient.etc.) The irony is that we are all slaves if we are “owned” by a sin and Mr. Savage doesn’t seem to realize that.  If his passions own him, he is not free, but Jesus could set him free.  He has obviously been treated badly also by people who he believed called themselves Christians so he needs alot of prayers. If we have the faith of a mustard seed….

Coast Ranger: Adultery is a sin though. Homosexuality is not :)

Katheryn: Because contraceptive is completely irrelevant towards whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

Grayson: If people didn’t take the LBGT community seriously, we wouldn’t have made it this far with regards to both gay rights and gay marriage.

John: Notice how you did not refute a single point i made. The anti-gay side rarely does =)

joanp62: You make claims that do not line up with the facts. I clearly showed through the usages of biblical scholars, facts, historians, and the bible itself that homosexuality is not a sin. You literally are covering your ears and screaming “no” rather than refuting any of the information i posted.

Scott W.: Those are copy/pastes of information i wrote on notepad through research via other sites which i linked. Trolls don’t provide evidence, because their primary motive is to incite anger. Furthermore, calling someone troll because you can’t win an argument against them only makes your reasoning look weaker. Perhaps you attempted to troll, failed miserably at it, and now do not like that fact.

Katheryn: I can tell you did not read my posts throughly, because you would see that i reference biblical scholars work =)

Innocent Smith: You’re grateful about all those heterosexuals (who make up the vast majority of AIDS cases worldwide) are dying? How Catholic of you :D

Shadow man, I recently came across a study that showed the average life span of a male homosexual was only 38 years.  Is this true?  And, if it is, it would make me wonder about the motives of those who encourage the embracing of a lifestyle that so drastically cuts one’s life span so short.  It would seem to be a very cruel thing to do to a person.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Chastity and homosexuality (excerpts)

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex… Basing itself on Sacred Scripture… They are contrary to the natural law… Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination… constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Bravo John, for the brilliant thought of quoting the Catechism.  I don’t think it will make much difference to shadow man however.  He does not seem to digest many other relevant comments on the Catholic position, but merely keeps telling us how he has “proved” homosexual acts are not sinful.  He will make no headway with faithful Catholics.  But It should be said, I have enjoyed his respectful dialogue and participation in this discussion.  I wish him well, and hope that he opens his heart to consider Catholic teaching on the matter at hand.  God bless.

Maybe this is worth saying:
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A plausible-sounding case can be made for homosexuality in the Bible and shadow_man has done it. But a plausible-sounding case can just as easily be made for slavery.
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The Bible has to be interpreted, and we Catholics look to the Magisterium for that. In the case of homosexuality, the Magisterium looks at the natural law, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. All those sources shed light on the individual Scriptural passages.
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The Church’s moral teachings on homosexuality are grounded on the natural law, that is, on how God designed human nature.
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A very telling modern insight is that of all the human biological systems, every one is complete and self-contained in the individual. The only exception is the reproductive system. A man and a woman can form a complete reproductive system. Two men or two woman never can.

Dan Savage, like all other people, is imperfect.  He wants to prevent kids from becoming suicidal because of their sexual orientation, but he is foul-mouthed, and he advocates such ridiculousness as his “Monogamish” marriages (because sexual fidelity is too difficult).

Thank you Susy. In all honesty, I think a tremendous part of the frustration on the part of the gay community is the big lack of consistency in respect to Protestant AND Catholic pastors/priests who turn a blind eye to heterosexual couple living in sin. If “straight” couple can live and NOT be told anything by their pastors, than why shouldn’t “gay” couples be able to do the same? I used to think that way too but gave it up. There’s more to the Good News of Jesus Christ than meets the eye and the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church has it right. I just wish so many of her shepherds would do just a bit better!

JOhn…you are so right.

momofthree, I feel the same way you do…or did, before I read an interview with him and his partner and watched a video of him talking about hate-sex/rape with/of GOP candidates.
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I think we must do everything possible to stop children from killing themselves and each other.  But Savage has gone completely off the rails. A hetereo guy talking about rape as a punishment or coercing his much-younger, less-experienced female partner into an open relationship that to this day the partner seems ambivalent about?  We would be all over him in a second for being the domineering and manipulative bully that he is.  But Savage has done these things as well as the above stunt, and of course his angry revenge/avenger-type things he has done to those he feels are morally inferior.  (If he were a Catholic with that attitude toward the moral reprobates, he would also be roundly condemned for being a hater and violence-monger.) 
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Lots of people with compassionate thoughts and actions toward some are also terrible, terrible at being loving in other ways.  I really hope Mr. Savage gets the healing he needs.

Shadow man has lost his way.  Homosexuality is a temptation to sin.  First is the temptation, then the thought is embraced, then the sin.  This needs to be handled from the start as the spiritual problem it is, closing the heart to these thoughts and turning to whatever is good, whatever brings us closer to Christ.  People are buying alot of lies and those like shadow man feel if they repeat them often enough they will become the truth. They are not the truth.

@Pam: With all due respect, Homosexuality is an orientation where one is attracted to another of the same sex. We all have temptations and we all sin. As Scripture says: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23).

Let’s put this in perspective: The ACTION of any kind of sex OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE makes is sin.

Many people (Catholics, Protestants, and many others in and outside religion) believe that sex outside of marriage is okay. We - as Catholic Christians - know it is absolutely NOT okay.

As much as shadow_man (and many others) may be wrong, let’s keep it in perspective and have some charity toward him and members of the gay community. They are NOT the enemy. Satan is: “He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

If people do not believe the truths the Holy Spirit teaches through the Church it is, in good part, because we in the church have failed miserably in living and proclaiming the full Gospel of Jesus Christ. In love we need to pray, ask forgiveness of God and those we have failed, and live in Jesus our Lord, Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6).

Lord have mercy on us all!

John, You are correct about the charity. I apologize for that. I should say the sin working in Shadow man that makes him repeat these things as truths. He is an instrument and he is a brother who has lost his way. Calling homosexuality an orientation may be true for some but not all or even most.  Many are groomed to the behavior and were put in the orientation that was not their natural orientation. (See article on Philadelphia priests) People have been so blinded to this aspect of this sin.

New Yorker: 38 years? Lol, where exactly did you get this outdated study? In some cases there might be a lower lifespan, but that’s not due to homosexuality itself, it’s due to problems associated with homophobia (good example, bullying).

John: I have already proven that homosexuality is natural in my posts above. And i have already proven that homosexuality is not a sin. Merely not addressing my points already shows you do not like addressing facts :)

Susy: Trying to make a claim without proof holds very little validity in today’s world, and for good reason.

Coast Ranger:

1) Slavery is completely irrelevant to homosexuality, and is addressed differently in the Bible. Of course, since you can’t disprove me on the homosexuality aspect, you bring out irrelevant things =)

2) I’ve clearly provided evidence using the bible to prove that homosexuality is not a sin

3) Scientific links prove that homosexuality is a normal, biological aspect of human and animal sexuality, including brain differences and stimuli differences. This clearly proves God created homosexuals and loves them.

4) Your argument for the reproductive system fails because as stated before, gays and lesbians can produce children if needed. You’re trying to confine something to “your definition” which is merely a definition, not a fact. There are also many heterosexuals who cannot reproduce, many heterosexuals who choose not to reproduce, etc. That doesn’t make one lesser or greater than the other.

John: The problem is straight people do not live according to their pastors and pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible. The over 50% divorce and high fidelity rates prove that. Trying to condemn one group (wrongly of course) while ignoring your own faults is against the Bible, and makes you hypocritical, and well, we remember what Jesus thinks about hypocrites :) Merely covering your ears and yelling “he’s wrong” but showing no backup to your claims merely makes your arguments look laughable.

Pam: Lol, you claim i make lies and resort to ad hominem attacks, yet you fail to disprove a single statement i wrote. This is why the vast majority of us under 30 support gay marriage and don’t see homosexuality as a sin. Because your side just cannot come up with the facts or good arguments. =)

shadow_man: In all honesty, I am simply not interested in proving anything. The only thing I’m interested in is pleasing God and living out my faith as best as I can. As you’ve noticed, I haven’t addressed your points of view because others are. The few comments I’ve made were to try and keep things in a Catholic perspective and to be in a spirit of Charity. From my point of view, I am not your adversary (nor that of the gay community) and vice-versa. As for covering my ears, I have to say that I know more about the gay community than one may think, but that is neither here nor there. I wish you all the best good sir. God bless.

What is happening is no surprise to a good observer of the social trends in any society. First, let us quickly address nomenclature and move on. The practice to which Dan Savage is associated with is just SODOMY; calling it ‘gay’, ‘same-sex’ is only a way of embellishing a bad situation. And we all know what the Bible says about such practice, including the female version of the practice. The Western society has created a monster in gay practice; and this monster has come back to haunt the society, otherwise Dan Savage would not have had the guts to come out openly to defend an unnatural act and to call a dissenting voice a ‘pansy’. The Western laws are built around the Judaeo-Christian religious beliefs; thus bigamy, sodomy, incest, etc were criminalised. However, sodomy managed to escape from this group and had been stoutly defended under ‘freedom of association and freedom of thought’ sort of legal parlance and acrobatics. And some Christian churches had given their support on the ground that God loves gays and straight people! What nonsense! That one is even created means that God loves that person, so these churches should proffer other reasons for supporting sodomy. And so we have gone full circle to decriminalise a supposedly criminal act; and thus have created a Frankenstein that is now haunting the society. Gays and Lesbians have some phobia against people of the other sex and so feel more inclined towards a same-sex relationship. Many reasons for this abound but I shall stop here for space reasons.

The Battle between Good and Evil rages on.  What Savage and so many others ignore is the slavery to sin and its downward consequences.  I used to debate on a forum that had many advocates of Evil.  When I would ask what is their goal and how far did they want to push their agenda, they had no answer.  Are four women and five men and six animals enough to define a Liberal marriage?  Where do Liberals draw the line?  When true religion is destroyed, and everybody is in hell was my suggestion.  With this they understood.  God is Love.  Everything that opposes God is Evil.  Hell is inclusive.  Heaven is exclusive.

John,  Don’t see where I called you a liar.  That is very harsh. What did I miss?  Homosexuality is not an orientation as much as the result of grooming. Kids stereotyped, looking for love, being used, egos beaten and fed put downs of the opposite sex and on and on. This is a fact.  Look at the professions where it is most common and see how young men and women are treated there. I was an athlete and saw it first hand most of my life.  People in theatre see it. People in music see it.  Many people who are homosexual are victims lead astray.  Your generation has been deprived of the truth of the gospel and prayer in school and the virtue of modesty.  You have been put in a battle of “generation against generation” where you are pitted against those older than you and our current president does this all the time. Instead of loving and respecting elders you have been taught they are the enemy. How sad. All their experience and wisdom is ignored.  That’s a tragedy.  Instead learning discernment your generation has been taught to throw everyone into one category and throw them all out.  This is the most destructive.  We need the love of Jesus more now than ever.  We need to look at each person as a soul and treat each one with love and respect. We must see sin for what it is - the lie and the destroyer of peace. 
Shadow man, In love I ask you, in what way do you think you have proved anything? Sin has consequences that are negative.  Homosexual acts have had these negative consequences such as aids, distancing from the truth of the gospel or efforts to rework the gospel, harm to family relationships, strong feelings against anyone who calls the act a sin, shorter lifespans not only because of bullying but because of the risky things that it leads to and the multiple partners that most have and the damage to the immune system and the loss of weight many suffer.  It is hard to say, there are down sides to things we love, but for love of God and ourselves we need to face them.

John: The problem is you are making a claim that has been refuted. It’s like saying homosexuality is a choice. We all know that’s false, because scientific/psychological/medical evidence prove that. But religious people still refuse to acknowledge the truth. =)

chi: “Sodomy” as defined in the bible in relation to the sodom story does not refer to male consenting homosexual sex. Let’s examine the sin of sodom.

The Sodom Story - Genesis 19:1-29
Homophobic Viewpoint: “Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality.”
Scriptural Viewpoint: Sodom was a lush beautiful region of land whose inhabitants had known the goodness of God. Despite their exposure to, experience with, and witness of the one true loving Creator, the people of Sodom had rejected a relationship with God, and turned to numerous types of idolatry. When God’s messengers were sent to the city, the men of Sodom responded by threatening the ultimate act of violent abuse, murder, disrespect and humiliation. They were going to RAPE God’s representatives.

All other Old and New Testament references to Sodom involved the sins of idolatry, inhospitality, indifference toward the poor and the rejection of God’s messengers. There are no references to same sex acts or homosexuality.

How anti-gay people twist this story up is simply laughable when you have basic knowledge of the bible.

ARTHUR MARTIN: The slippery slope argument fails easily.

Let us take the 4 common arguments: beastiality, pedophilia, incest, and polygamy. First off, all 4 of these are fetishes, and irrelevant to homosexuality, which is a sexual orientation. Let me distinguish this for you using incest as an example. If a guy into incest is straight, he’ll choose his sister, and if he’s gay, he’ll choose his brother. See the distinguishment? Now pedophilia and beastiality will never be legal, because both are non-consenting and harmful, whereas homosexuality is 2 loving consenting adults that is not wrong or harmful. Incest, also has been shown to lead to genetic defects, so that is also out of the question. Incest also is a fetish, not a sexual orientation. I have never seen a person exclusively attracted to their brothers/sisters etc. Polygamy also is a choice. No one can choose who they would or will be attracted to, but they CAN choose to be in more than one relationship with more than one person at the same time. Polygamy can be damaging, as it can cause jealousies and resentments among the participants and any children produced. Those 4 things can be seen to be harmful and wrong, whereas gay marriage is neither harmful nor wrong.

If you want to press for polygamy, or incest, those are completely separate issues irrelevant to gay marriage. Go advocate for them if that’s your concern, prove they are not wrong and prove they are not harmful. We have already proven that homosexuality/gay marriage is not wrong/harmful. But those two things are irrelevant to gay marriage. And gay marriage does not lead to polygamy nor any other type of fetish.

Gay marriage has been legal in MA for 8 years now, and i don’t see anyone pushing for polygamy there. The slippery slope is a myth meant as a scare tactic that’s quickly becoming obsolete.

Pam: Lol, did you just bring up the AIDS card? Let’s examine the facts. The vast majority of AIDS cases worldwide is among heterosexuals in Africa. AIDS is not a “gay” or even a “straight” disease, it’s a sexual disease. If you are concerned about the harms of AIDS, well then, you better start advocating not having sex. Also, i clearly proved that homosexuality is not a sin already so that case is already refuted. And where do you get your multiple partners data? All of my gay friends are monogamous. In fact, it’s my heterosexual friends who mostly go with multiple partners. Your idea here is based on what i call “isolated incidents” You can’t condemn a whole group for some bad things parts of that group does. We don’t condemn black people for stealing now do we just because some of them do? Isolated incidents fail to prove a group wrong, unless you can prove that every single member of that group performs said bad thing. Loss of weight from being gay? Lol. I hope you’re trolling.

All of the “downsides” you mentioned are also downsides of heterosexuals, and in some of them, higher rates among heterosexuals (like AIDS) Homosexuality is not any different from heterosexuality other than whom you are sexually attracted to.

Shadow man….how do you explain this: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2010/01/03/loves_new_frontier/

According the the Globe, this is now the new frontier.
I know two couples who were doing this. Both relationships failed.

Shadow Man, this is no laughing matter.  The study I referred to took inventory of obituaries in homosexual publications.  The average age of death was only 38 and even before aids it was only 48.  Those are disturbing numbers.  Also, there was a host of causes of death, but none of them involved heterosexuals harming homosexuals.  Emotional problems, suicide, domestic abuse, and substance abuse rates all tend to be higher in the homosexual community,even when that community is one that openly accepts and even celebrates same sex relations (no bullying there).  How could this be so?  One theory is that even men get tired of being sex objects.  Male homosexuals tend to be much more promiscuous then heterosexuals even when in “monogamous” relationships.  There have been numerous studies on this.  Besides all the emotional problems that come with promiscuity we also have the physical ailments that arise from sodomy.  Diseases such as anal cancer and some specific types of urinary tract infections are diseases rarely found in heterosexuals.  Can you imagine uncircumcised males engaging in such acts and lacking adequate bathing facilities?  That’s what has gone on for most of history and it is no wonder that disease can arise from this.  OK, so this is not the case in the USA today, but there’s no refuting that our body parts were not made for this activity and there are consequences for engaging in it.  Exposing the reality of homosexuality is like exposing the reality of abortion.  Once you stop and think about it, you become sickened by it.  Then you realize why it’s a sin.  I really do feel bad for people suffering with same sex attractions.  That has got to be one tough way to go through life.  And, certainly, homosexuals should never be harmed or discriminated against.  But that doesn’t mean we twist the Bible around to justify whatever we want to do.  And we certainly shouldn’t be promulgating this destructive lifestyle to others.  Homosexuality is a sin because like any other sin, it harms us.  Lastly, the Bible can be made to say whatever one would like, but in the Catholic orbit, the only interpretation that really counts comes from the Holy See in Rome.  And, they looked at this issue 2,000 years a go and made a call on it back then (reference The Didache).  I’ll pray for you.

Pam: I NEVER called you a liar. I was quoting our Lord who calls Satan a liar. It’s even in quotations! As for the comments you address to me, I have no idea what you’re referring to since I’ve NEVER addressed those issues.

While I don’t agree with some of your premises, I am certainly NOT lumping you (or anyone else) into a group. And, just for the record, I know a lot about SSA and the gay community and I stand FIRMLY on the teachings of the Church.

Are you sure you’re not confusing some of shadow_man’s comments with mine?

Shadow man, Aids is a disease transmitted by blood to blood contact - anal sex and hyperdermic needle sharing being the leading culprits. It never existed on the face of the earth until the homosexual revolution in the 60’s. You have not proved homosexuality is a sin, you have proven you refuse to believe the truth.  See New Yorker’s comment.  God bless.

Shadow man It should read “homosexuality is not a sin”.  As to your proof, two thousand years of saints have formed the teaching of the Catholic faith.  They understood men lying with a man as he would a woman.  (not the description of idolatry is it? Or rape? No. It is the description of sex acts with a person of the wrong sex!)They understood the concept of sodomy. They understood and passed down through the letters of Paul and Peter and others that this is a sin.  Not because God hates anyone, but because He loves someone. Commandments are for the good of the man.

I have seen homosexuals and bisexuals stop being attracted to the same sex by the help of God. God can heal you from that sin and help turn you away from it but you have to want it. Sadly this world today has twisted it around saying “Oh no, your just born that way. You dont need God to heal you from it.”, and fewer and fewer people want to be saved from it. God healed the lepers who had thier fingers practically falling off and he can heal a bisexual and homosexual from thier sinful desires. (Just like with heterosexual idolterers who take part in some of the most disgusting sexual acts you can ever imagine just like homosexuals because they were inspired by the way homosexuals have sex.) Ive seen people lose thier sexual attraction to the opposite sex. There was this guy that was a gay porn star, he found God, and he was healed from all that. He has a nice wife now and kids. He never wants to go back to that past lifestyle. God healed him. I myself was begining to have attraction to women because of all the perversion I have seen on tv, the internet, and high school. I went to God with this and he healed me from it. I am no longer attracted to women. He CAN heal you from it. Do not underestimate God’s power. It is no lie when it says in the Bible he is powerful. He is VERY powerful. He cleansed me and I was released from my sin just like that man. And now, like him, I do not want to return to that sin. It disgusts me.  I have been set free.

Correction: I meant to put “Ive seen people lose thier sexual attraction to the SAME SEX.” NOT “Ive seen people lose thier sexual attraction to the opposite sex.” Sorry for the correction.

Shadowman, contraception is indeed relevant…. It is immoral, therefore all contraceptive sex s immoral, including in straight married sex, unmarried straight sex, and unmarried gay sex.  Even if you were to “prove” that the bible doesn’t condemn gay sex, it still isn’t permissible in the Church due to its contraceptive nature. 
Didn’t I just say that?

shadow-man, you said “Scientific links prove that homosexuality is a normal, biological aspect of human and animal sexuality, including brain differences and stimuli differences.”
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When making such a statement, scientific abstracts are necessary.  Do you have any?  Do you know what an abstract is? 
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And to go back to an old point: anal sex is NOT the same as vaginal sex because NEVER once in the course of human history has anal sex ever resulted in a new human life that needs parental care for years.  Vaginal sex has resulted in the propagation of the species as we know it.  Sorry, the two are not equivalent, but I’ll forgive you not understanding this because you are firmly entrenched in the thinking that the only purpose of sexual intercourse is pleasure.

A few observations:

1. Homosexuality in and of itself is not a sin. No one chooses his/her orientation, and as Catholics we are called to show love and tolerance toward homosexuals.

2. Extramarital sex, whether gay or straight, is a grave sin. Behavior is something that we can control. Couples that live together before marriage are in the same state of sin as gays who pick up random partners at bars.

3. Savage insults everyone with his attitude that we are all out seeking sex whenever we have the opportunity. Nonsense. Some of us actually exercise the gift of free will. 

4. Heterosexuals are constantly being told to be more accepting of individuals who suddenly decide they’re gay, even after years as husbands and fathers. We’re supposed to assume that such a person is now in touch with who he really is. BUT gays that “turn” straight get no love from the homosexual community! They’re told, in fact, that they are being manipulated by crazy Christians. If it is true that a person may take a long time to realize his authentic orientation, why is this limited to people who go from straight to gay lifestyles, and not the other way around? Who is being intolerant now, Mr. Savage?

icefalcon58 number four is such a good point…I had never even thought of that.

Icefalcon58:  There is a misunderstanding about this “orientation” issue and temptation issue. Temptations are easiest overcome when they first begin. Being in a state of temptation and accepting it and being at peace with it and identifying oneself by it and not working to leave it is a sin. People may be tempted, but if you know you have a problem, you need to address the temptation. People actually often do choose their orientation or are groomed into it or traumatized into it, thinking they haven’t made a choice. But many choices have been made although maybe not many were made without coercion. Many young adults have done this.  This idea that it’s just how one is, is a lie for the most part.  There is a whole network that is labelling very young children, targeting people etc.  It is not nearly as benign as you think. Catholics are called to show love to everyone, not tolerance.  We don’t tolerate things we know are wrong. And we don’t love anyone when all we do is put up with them. We love the sinner but not the sin. We do not judge by appearances and yet there are groups of people trying to make us dress or act a certain way to identify ourselves as gay or straight and this is really an accomodation to live with sinful behavior - thinking that if everyone is easily identifiable or stereotyped then we will be safer? or better off? or holier? I’m not really sure what the mentality is! But the whole idea of sorting people by outward appearances,THAT is truly naive and THAT is also so sinful and so open to abuse.  Sin has consequences.  It harms our relationships with God and each other.  Although I’m sure it’s the last thing you intend, it is helping the sin to say the things you say in paragraph 1.

The struggle for many people with SSA is (I think) beyond anyone’s scope, but not the Lord’s. With that said, I wonder: does it REALLY MATTER why or how a person has SSA? Or is it more important - once they realize they have that cross to bear - to learn to live with it in the grace and care of God and seek a life of holiness?

Check out this blog from Mark Shea: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/05/a-gay-man-i-consider-a-saint.html

You won’t regret it! (or maybe you will???)

check out this blog from NCR’s very own Mark Shea: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/05/a-gay-man-i-consider-a-saint.html

It’s right on point!

Pam: I kind of see what you’re saying, but I do think we are called to be tolerant of the person (not their behavior). In a sense, the students at the journalism seminar exhibited tolerance of Dan Savage but not his behavior: they politely walked out. They didn’t scream at him or throw things; they just got up and walked out. They were very brave and mature to do so, after all the insulting things he said about them. I also think that the huge majority of humans do NOT choose orientation. I could no more decide to become gay than some of my homosexual friends could opt to be straight tomorrow. But I do totally agree with you that grooming, recruiting, etc. does go on. There are gay men who find it a challenge (or a thrill) to bed a straight guy. If the straight guy is young and impressionable, a silly “experiment” can have life-changing consequences. I think that one unfortunate result of raising kids to be overly tolerant (of behavior) may put them in a position of feeling awkward about saying “No way.” But nobody wants to talk about this. And Dan Savage fans the fire by portraying gays as ALWAYS the victims. Sometimes they’re the victimizers.

icefalcon58: Yes, the kids acted in a Christian manner, but they did not stay and tolerate the abuse.  I’m glad to see you see the grooming and recruiting.  Have you seen the undermining of confidence of straight kids whose parents are in positions of power or are religious?  Evil!- blackballing them with the opposite sex so they think they aren’t attractive or setting them up for failure or turning them off with undue harshness in the activities they love and steering them into gay friendly activities?  You need Jesus to get through all this.  No one should rely on themselves. We disagree about the orientation percentages. As a sports teacher I have seen many straight young kids I taught evolve into homosexuals because of the environment around where I live.  There is a language of fear/distrust/misogeny about the opposite sex.  Our society is in trouble when we are in denial about the effects of people who don’t relate healthily to the opposite sex and can be predatory.
John, I went to Mark’s article and think he went too far.  On the one hand he says he won’t judge and on the other he judges!  He calls the man “gay” but has no proof of it.  He calls him a saint but says he’s gay.  Then he says he won’t judge his lifestyle.  Very inconsistent and weird.  If the man is sensitive and shy and artistic, then he is sensitive and shy and artistic, not gay.  This is where we label and damage self esteem and push people into an orientation they are not.  If he is gay, he is gay and he is not a saint.  He will be a saint when he has died to the flesh enough not to commit this sin or not to be content to live in a label that offends the Lord.  I agree with Mark that we are not to judge.  So how can he judge the man’s sanctity?  Sounds very political to me.  Only the Church can do that and it is a very long process.  As to crowd appeal, that can be an indication, but then many false prophets drew large crowds. The man’s website did not show me anything except a man who loves art and posts Catholic information, which is nice.

I have yet to understand what all these people are proving who want to say that homosexuality is inherant.  Everyone goes through a time in life where they are unsure about their sexuality.  I would even venture to say that everyone has had a same-sex “crush” or at least a moment of attraction at some point in their life.  But I always figured that if God wanted me to be with a woman, then He wouldn’t have made me a woman…so even though there are a lot of great women out there, there was a MAN for me. And that’s what happened.  I suppose if someone has had negative associations with people of the opposite sex long enough, they may want to avoid them and go for what feels safe and comforting.  I have known a few homosexuals to have been abused as children sexually.  We all have choices to make and we all have loads to bear.  Bullying is wrong.  Hating people is wrong.  It’s not our place to judge those OUTSIDE of the church.  If you don’t believe what the Bible says then fine, that is your right.  But please don’t you DARE come on here with your lies trying to twist the Scriptures to say what YOU want them to and therefore try to lead BELIEVERS astray.  The Bible has a word for that and a hefty penalty as well.  The Bible is VERY CLEAR that homosexuality AND any type of fornication is wrong.  And your word gymnastics don’t prove a thing.  Nobody had to coin any terms to be able to say that a man should not “lie with a man as he would with a woman”.  It is plain as the nose on your face.  Thankfully we have the church to protect us from these translation errors.  I pray that others do not fall for it!  Are we hypocrites because we don’t do 100% of what we should that the Bible teaches?  Maybe we are but by God’s grace He will lead us closer and closer to the truth.  But it doesn’t really matter what the Bible says if you don’t believe it and don’t have FAITH in God in the first place, now does it?

How sad that people feel the need to be so offensive.

He doesn’t even know how to spell. This is so sad, why is this poster so angry and offensive. I will pray for them even though they don’t want it.

Brothers and sisters in Christ.  Dan Savage and others who attack the Bible, the Church and Christians as often as they have the opportunity are usually negative, critical individuals who have latched onto Christianity because our faith has become for some a vehicle for their ugly, hateful attacks.

Faithful people surprise them, since they thought that all they had to do was scare and intimidate Christians, especially adolscent and young adults and young in faith Christians and they would retreat from the Christian faith.  Many of these individuals who are resisting and disopbeying God by not living in accord with His Commandments know in their hearts that God is real, however, they think they are in control of thier lives and the ego is a terrible challenger when the truth is in front of it. 

God is real.  God is alive. God is to be obeyed, loved and followed.  Those who grow up influenced by non believers or who get connected with anti-Christian friends have to prove to each other that they are hard core anti-Christian so they make outrageous statements, they attack Christians and the Bible, thinking they will scare us into silence and leaving our faith.

Some will disregard and disrespect the right of each person to choose who we will serve; As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  Some citizens respect free speech and religious liberty, as long as it is their view, opinon, personal practices.  Usually, people who bahvior homosexually, know they are wrong and living against God’s Commandments.  They choose to fight God and Christians who follow the truth - God.

No matter how loud, ugly, verbally violent those who choose to behave homoesexually and those who support this behavior become, they are still wrong.  There is a right and a wrong conduct.  The morals that we learn and live by are true.  Secularists will say there is no one way and that all ways are ok.  These people just want to do whatever they want to whomever they want and do not what God to get in the middle to remind them that they are wrong.  Often they are abusive toward others to satisfy their own sick desires. They use and abuse each other and often ignocent young men and women and boys and girl, by encouraging them to join their perverted user conduct.  Say NO, if you are encouraged to give uop what is true and real for a the fast feel good anything goes approach to life.  We are deep, loving , kind, gentle and strong Christians. 

They are weak in many ways so they think we are weak.  They do not understand, because they fight against God, that we Christians are strong and growing stronger in our faith, because God guide, protects and strengthens us for the challenges ahead and He give us opportunities to stand up and defend our faith.  Praise Jesus!!!

God bless you my brothers and sisters, we are blessed and we are united.  Those who need our support, please walk beside them and encourage young Christians and those who may get discouraged. Also encourage those who are seeking the truth and who may be confused by the messages about faith and God they hear from others.  We are strong when we are obedient to God and follow Him and not allow others to sway us away form His purpose for our lives. Those who get discouraged get through it and grow even more deeply in their faith.  We are the defenders of faith, family and freedom. 

For those who have not had the opportunity to get to know Christians who are Bible believers deep in their faith, find other Christians who will walk beside to and support your Christian walk in true honest loving fellowship. How wonderful, how cool to walk with other believers who love you and support abstinance till marriage, friendship, respect for each other, rather than using others as the lost do.  Pray for those individuals to respond to the Lords call on their hearts and show them through the way you love one another. 

www.GBTV.com is a great place to learn more about our nation and the world by faithful people. Check it out if you want to know the truth about the political side of life.  EWTN TV and The Presence Radio are awesome places to spend time everyday listening and watching Catholic perspective.  I was lost and now I am found.  Thank you Jesus!

I was an evangelical for many years, searching from church to church and now I attend a Catholic Church and love Mass. Scripture is so much more alive for me with the traditions of the Catholic Church.  Whatever your journey to Jesus, trust Him and know that He guides our lives.  Serve Jesus and He will present opportunities to serve in the world.  God bless you.  The desparate attempt to intimdate us and scare us and confuse do not work, we get stronger and we know we do not walk alone, Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit.  How cool is that!  Praise the LOrd, we are free.  The truth has set us free. The Word is the Truth. Peace, Peter ~

Savage forgot or omitted the passage that God delivered the Jews out of slavery to Egypt. What a careless blunder! And since he opposes the biblical stoning of adulterous woman, why is he silent about the establishment of sharia law courts in the USA, where even murder of women is permitted to this day by Muslims? Theirs is the only religion left still doing it. Savage is the hypocrite.

Why didn’t you address the other things in Leviticus like the things that are now accepted everyday like touching pork. Obviously incest isn’t good. But there are some things prohibited in leviticus that we don’t even hold as a sin anymore. For example, playing football should be a sin since the ball is made of pig skin. But football has nothing to do with men loving other men so its okay, right? HELL NO!

Why do you believe “incest isn’t good”? If it is not wrong for two unrelated males to sodomize each other, why is it wrong for two brothers to sodomize each other?

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