It seems to me that an even bigger issue is the disrespect of Jane’s husband to make a permanent decision unilaterally without consideration to her feelings.  That’s a sad reflection of the state of their marriage, and possibly not the best marriage to add children to (not saying this justifies his actions).

As a man too, I agree with the sense of loss.  After our second child, I noticed that my wife started to give away the crib and baby clothes to a friend, almost as soon as our younger was out growing them.  I knew that she had made the decision without any discussion from me.  Even though she was barely over 40, her health was sufficient so that I thought that we could have another healthy child.  Jennifer and Claire are right.  There are two wounds.  The wound of lost potential of love in a child, and the wound of a marriage that has come down a notch from a loving, sancitified marriage.

The big conclusion stands.  The world does not want to hear these stories of emotional pain.  Emotional suffering is now only relevant to get more money in a lawsuit settlement.  Otherwise, we are led to believe that a vacation, a shopping spree at the mall, or other temptations (especially for men), solves all problems.  Bless “Jane” for her suffering.  She is heroic in this baseless, secular world.

“Go take a vacation, and be happy that you’re not overburdened with a bunch of little kids!” one relative told her.”

Wow.  Just… wow.  Thank you, Jane, for reaching out:  to Ms. Fulwiler and to the rest of us and sharing your story. 

“You would think that Women’s Studies groups would be all over this issue, since it’s a deep source of anguish for so many women. Yet these stories only rarely get highlighted, because they don’t fit the cultural narrative in which contraception is the hero and a woman’s fertility is the bad guy.”

Indeed.  Because despite the oft-heard and promoted mantra of “my body, my choice,” the choices of women like Jane are clearly “wrong.”

I pray for all women who have this very great suffering. Thank God our Catholic Church validates the truth about how God created women, and the true purpose of marriage.  I was “married” to a man right after I graduated from college.  He said he wanted children before that time, but after our “wedding” he refused, saying he wasn’t sure he ever wanted any kids. The Catholic Church annulled our marriage, because it was never a marriage in the first place.

Pray for this man. He didn’t do this to himself…he did it to the single “two-became-one-flesh-body” of the marriage. It can be reversed and they can be one again. Therefore, prayer.

I can relate to Jane and the emotional pain with which she’s struggling…especially when there is no “human” place to go for guidance, comfort, peace.  After our daughter was born, my husband was against having any more children, particularly due to financial concerns.  I tried to talk with my in-laws, and was told that perhaps we should consider divorce because I was too busy to be a good wife and mother.  My MIL rightly expressed her concerns about my busyness, but after the comment about divorce, I never felt I could safely turn to them again.  Then, in confidence, I trusted a friend with my struggle.  However, she then shared my story with another friend.  After the negative experiences with my MIL and my friend, I kept quiet and suffered in silence among family and friends.  My husband and I sought guidance from a priest who essentially took my husband’s concerns to heart and thought it might be too much for my husband psychologically to bring another child into our marriage.  Finally, we went to a Christian counselor who was helpful to us, and we finally began to be open to a new life. (This whole course of events took about ten years.)  However, we struggled.  Physical intimacy was very limited for a number of reasons and, long story short, we didn’t conceive. 

From the start of our marriage, we used NFP, however, the result was that we lived in a marriage devoid of physical intimacy because my husband was too afraid that we might conceive.  That issue, lack of physical intimacy, continues to this day even though I am much older and starting menopause.  This situation in our marriage was and is another area of life that can’t be shared openly. Jane and Jennifer are so right.  There is nowhere to go to be able to speak openly, share our grief, and find some human comfort.  In my case, not only did I wish to share my grief over not having any more children, I also wanted desperately to have someone to talk with about the void of intimacy in my marriage. 

The timing of this post is amazing as my husband and I were again struggling with this situation just this past weekend.  While my husband is a good man and loving in many ways, physical intimacy for us is still absent.  I have long been very unhappy and extremely frustrated, and it has changed me as a person after 26 years of marriage.  In our times, I don’t know many people who would remain in a marriage with this struggle. It is truly only through the graces poured out by the Holy Spirit that I’m able to keep hope alive. This post has allowed me to share in another’s struggle and share my own.  Thank God that He has given us one another for support and encouragement. Thank you for taking up this matter, Jennifer, and for reaching out, Jane. 

Praying, Jane, that you will find comfort and that your husband will have a change of heart.

It may not be the right response, but I think I would be so resentful in that situation that I don’t know if my marriage would survive. I would honestly question how much my husband loved me.

Jane, you are not alone.  This happened to me as well.  There has been healing between my husband and I, as he was not is a good place when he had the procedure. (preparing for 2nd tour in Afghanistan)  But I understand the lack of sympathy from others.  I often got told that I had two healthy children and should be grateful. 

You are not alone.

I don’t know how any marriage can survive such selfish, abusive treatment. I feel deeply angry for any man or woman who suffers this kind of abuse from their spouse.

Mourning for our tortured sisters (and brothers) in Christ! How many cases of depression, self-loathing, and other psycho-somatic illnesses such as fibromyalgia are due to the repression, anger and helplessness felt by these women (and men) who long to fulfill their vocation to life and trust in God’s Providence, but are frustrated by other’s selfish and faithless actions. An additional suffering is their concern for their loved ones’ salvation, too. We must be encouraged to pray ceaselessly for our spouses and for the whole Body of Christ. The true war on women is the despising of their vocation to be life-bearers, and to objectify and use them for their womanly gifts only.

It used to be that doctors would not perform sterilizations without the spouse’s consent. I don’t know why that ever changed. This has happened to a Catholic friend of mine, as well as a nonCatholic neighbor. In my neighbor’s case, not only do they only have 2 children, both boys (she would love to have a girl, and her husband knows this), but they’re only in their mid 20’s!  There also seems to be some sort of fear of “bad luck” or something. I’ve heard several people say “we need to be happy with the healthy children we have, and not “push our luck”.  Maybe because we live in such a media saturated society that we know about every “bad” thing that can happen with a pregnancy that has caused this sentiment, but it boggles my mind.  Since when is doing what our bodies are made to do “pushing our luck”??  Stories like these just break my heart.

It happens to men too, when a woman makes that decision and persuades her husband or not that they have more than enough children that she can bear, both literally and figuratively speaking.

I know a couple that went through this after their second child.  The husband agreed to her “tying the tubes”, but then described how it affected their sexual life, as if it had lost something that he couldn’t describe what, though they were not Catholics and had never heard of this very common symptom.  The husband later on even tried to persuade his wife about adoption, but the wife was adamant that she would raise no more children.  After a few years, it became clear to him that she wasn’t very fond of children and that she was emotionally neglecting their own children.

Yet, it’s no less painful to the man who suffers this way.  A marriage that’s not open to life, that’s not welcoming of children is not only literally sterile, but also emotionally and spiritually to all those involved in it, at its core and at its vicinity.

oh my goodness jane could be me and i thought that I was the only woman like this

I am so sad for women who experience this.  I have heard these situations in Q & A sessions at Catholic conferences.  It is not just those who don’t stand with the Church on these teachings who can be thoughtless or even cruel, whatever their true intention may be.  This is another example for me that those of us who are Catholic and following the Church’s teachings as it pertains to being open to life and avoiding pregnancies for grave reasons must never be flippant when speaking to others.  I was a little shocked to hear people make judgmental statements about couples with one or two children.  They assumed those couples were not faithful Catholics without knowing anything about their situation.  We never know what other people are dealing with or what suffering is theirs.  There is something especially beautiful about one of my friend’s faithfulness since she has suffered multiple miscarriages, several later than 16 weeks.  There is an extra depth and beauty to her sacrifice compared to the also beautiful witness of a couple blessed with a large family.  These teachings are not easy and we must never just fling them at people.  We must share the Church’s teachings with love and compassion.  Our charity must always be even greater than our zeal.

I really feel for Jane. My problem is complicated by the fact that I did consent to my husband’s vasectomy after several children. I was asked to “sign off/agree” on the procedure. So instead of helping my husband get to heaven, we both sinned.  He would never have done this without my consent. I was just exhausted, and even on the way to the doctor’s office a small voice “Holy Spirit” was telling me we shouldn’t do this, but I didn’t listen. I spent many years suffering from guilt and depression - it did negatively affect our marriage. Even though I have been to confession and my husband has too, it is not something we never talk about. Unfortunately, he was given bad pastoral advice before having the vasectomy, so I also had to get over being angry at the priest. I know several women who are in Jane’s situation who are married to non-Catholics.  This is a very big cross to bear. I pray that they will be the most loving wives they can be, and be open to “mothering” however they are called to do so.

I too understand her pain, even though mine is not on her scale. We were able to get pregnant the first time we tried and then wanted our next to be, of course, 2 years apart.  That was not God’s plan and we went through all the usual medical tests etc. and all they could offer was IVF and, of course, we refused and decided to let God be in charge.  Our second was born 8 years after our first, which worked out fine, but by the time that happened my hubby, who is 14 years older than I, decided that he was too old to be a father again and we were not financially able either. He offered to have a vasectomy (he is not Catholic) but I insisted we use NFP. There is a sadness of no more children but I have had to accept it.  I am not surprised at people not wanting to hear her story because so many people have decided that children are really nothing but a necessary burden.

We can talk about the Church’s teachings without pointing the fingers at individual families or presuming to know their motives or situations.

I have a similar sadness, though not on that scale, and I don’t share it with people, even my close friends because so many people believe two are just enough and why should you complain if you have two kids, more than that is just a burden.  All people do in this society is complain about having kids: how expensive they are, college costs, not having nice things, the fear of having something wrong with them, etc.  In the West we don’t really value children in general. We pay lip service to them.  We do things “for the children,” but in reality they are a hassle we have to deal with, not a joy.  Just look at our attitudes to abortion. 

The suffering “Jane” is going through probably is very common but we are afraid to talk about it because of the reaction she gets is what we would get.  People don’t accept suffering, but they will promote the selfishness behind the “one or two children” crowd. 

I have found that relying on God and accepting His will as mine helps a great deal.  I read last week an early copy of a book by Teresa Tomeo and Cheryl Dickow, Wrapped Up: God’s Ten Gifts for Women http://www.teresatomeo.com/Books-And-Media/ and they talked about one gift, the Gift of Suffering, and how it brings us closer to God.  Cheryl wrote about her diagnosis of Lupus and how if she did not have Lupus she would never have advanced in her faith like she has, that she would not have sought God in this in-depth way.  I think that is the same with me, but on a lesser degree, of course.  I had to accept my sufferings.  I had to follow God’s laws and then let God make his plans for me.  That is hard to do, but I really tried to trust God to know what is best.  Even though people we love may make decisions we know are wrong or don’t like, like Jane’s husband.  We have to trust God to make lemonade from lemons.

Wow, Jane’s story sounds almost identical to my sister’s.  She had two beautiful girls. But, they were both very upset when their second ended up being a girl - because the husband was very adamant that he wanted only two children. They both wanted a boy to complete their family unit. But that was it for him. Part of it was that he was afraid that they would have another girl (he wasn’t sure he could “produce” boys). No more trying, even though she really desired to have another child, a struggle made a little more poignant when I gave birth to our first child - a beautiful boy. They both gave up using any kind of artificial contraception but he insisted on doing his own system of charting with her. 

After all his efforts to control their fertility on his own, my sister ended up conceiving another child. He was furious and blamed her and made the decree that after this child he would be getting a vasectomy. Not long ago, they found out that baby is a boy and they are both elated. And I hope he realizes that if he had had it his way, he would never been blessed with this baby boy (not that a girl would have been any less wonderful). But, I doubt that they will be having any more. I know that deep down my sister wants a big family… because that’s what we both came from.

Jane isn’t alone. But I do agree that a lot of people just don’t understand what women like Jane and my sister go through. It’s very difficult to not be in agreement with your spouse on such an important issue. I remember something about the issue of agreement on children being an issue for annulment.

I have started a closed Facebook group, “Open to Life, but…” https://www.facebook.com/groups/372680886136164/

Jane’s story hurts my heart and I know her ache. I lived with fear that I might get pregnant if I didn’t do NFP right and got pregnant again, I would be faced with a decision that wasn’t my own.

Jennifer and Jane and commenters, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for this. I am a returning Catholic who came back only a year ago. Interestingly, I realized the rightness of the Church at the same time I realized that my long time desire to raise children was also right. I grew up in a home that was part Catholic, part feminist - the Pope was cool and the Mass was beautiful, but women were capable of “so much more” than the drudgery of raising children and deserved careers and self fulfillment. I chased those things half-heartedly, knowing I wanted to be a full-time mother but being afraid it was too small a pursuit to be important. I never had children. Anyway, a few years before I returned to the Church, I married a man who is Christian but not Catholic. I cannot receive the Eucharist because he doesn’t see the point in annulment from his ex-wife, and he will not consider having children because his boys are teenagers and he says it would be selfish to have babies at our ages. (He’s 48, I’m 40.) Now that his boys are older, he wants me to get a full time job, travel with him, upgrade the house, etc. I cannot blame him as his position makes sense from the predominant worldview, but none of this appeals to me at all. My heart is breaking and I am so confused. Do I let this marriage go, or stay in the hopes of helping him see the wisdom of the Church (on this and other matters?)  I feel guilty because not following the Church’s teaching in the first place got me here. I know it’s probably too late to start over. I may not be able to do anything with this except share the story and encourage Catholics to hold on to the precious gifts they have. Jane, I don’t deserve to offer my self-inflicted suffering for your faithful suffering, but I shall do so anyway, and keep you in my prayers.

My husband and I wanted a ton of children when we were first married, but over the years we’ve realized I’m infertile. Due to my condition, I will never conceive (and yes, I’ve tried NFP. My doctor is trained by Dr. Hilgers from the Pope Paul VI Institute). I cannot give my husband children and it hurts more than anyone can ever know. We’re unable to afford adoption at this point, and my husband isn’t even sure he wants to, anyway. I will never be a mother. I know mothers with many children struggle and suffer, too, but sometimes I want to tell them to be grateful for what they have.

I think this is the type of thing you should really talk about before you get married and then you wouldn’t be faced with these problems later on. That’s why it’s so important to talk about what lifestyle you want to lead after you get married beforehand.

I am a MALE in almost the identical situation. God willing, i would have whatever the amount of children. No one really wants to listen to my story, my pain. NFP was chosen by my spouse, but we rarely have relations due to fear of pregnancy. She loves are one baby. But scared to have more children now or even have more than a couple of children or so. For anyone out there single: think about this first before marriage; if like me and you become open to life after the fact-keep praying and talking to a priest and Traditional Catholics, if able.  May Mary pray for us.

this article hurt so much to read. i had so very many “female” problems that my husband had a vasectomy “for my sake” so that i could get off of the hormones. i wasn’t catholic when we got married, and i had one son from a previous “engagement”. my husband was able to walk into the navy medical clinic and tell them he wanted to be “fixed”. he told them he was married and had a son. they sent him to the doctor. i never had to sign anything. it wasn’t until much later that i learned that he was actually afraid that he was too physically damaged to be able to produce children. the month after his vasectomy, i had a miscarriage. the “female” problems just got worse, leading to a hysterectomy years down the road. in the meantime, we talked about adoption/fostercare, but i was diagnosed as bipolar and schizophrenic, so that was completely out of the picture. at the age of 36, i’m going through premature menopause, while most of my friends are raising small children or expecting more. at my five year “anniversary” i happened to mention to my MOTHER how much i regretted not being able to provide my son with siblings. her comment was that i should be glad, because i couldn’t handle more, if i had. my symptoms are very well managed, and my medication is finally working well, but in the back of my mind, i’ll always wonder how that little girl would have grown up. it’s hard enough when you have to fight this by yourself, it’s even worse when you have no one to turn to. the “best” solution i have found, is to pray constantly, (we came into the church last year), and to take in every stray animal i encounter. it’ll never me the same, but sometimes, it helps fill the void.

A similar suffering is the single woman who has always wanted children, but due to being faithful to God by being abstinent—doesn’t get to have children. I can vouch for the fact that when such a woman reaches her 40s there is MUCH grief for the knowledge that she’ll never get to experience her body creating a miracle—- as God intended it.  There is also grief for what feels like wasted sexuality.

Since my dad died exactly a year ago…  I finally had a conversation with my mom about their being unable to have kids. (my siblings and I are adopted.) As I shared that I have had to grieve my fertility (all by myself, I might add) my mom finally shared that it was dad who was infertile, (through no fault of his own) and that she too had to grieve not being able to bear children (through no fault of her own).  It’s the first thing my mom and I have had in common for 20 years!!!

I’m sure she had no idea that I have suffered so much by not being married, and not having an opportunity to TRY to procreate.  I of course, assumed that she grieved her fertility - but I never knew from what size.  Now knowing that she, like me, might have been able to bear many children but, also, like me, never got the chance - well, finally, someone understands my pain.

correction… from what SIDE! not size.

Complete strangers are constantly coming up to me and expaining why they don’t have as many children as they wanted.  I think as a culture there is an enormous ache for children that have been denied and marriages with this kind of hurt.

And I think NFP is guilty for a good bit of that, not just contraception.  How many Catholic men make their wives feel irresponsible, and how many women make their husbands feel selfish?  Very sad.

Can anyone offer advice on what one might do to help a spouse who is not open to new life become more open? After the birth of our son (now 1 & 1/2), my husband began talking frequently about how one is enough. He seems honestly overwhelmed, is struggling with stress about his business finances, and I am worried that the amount of time he has devoted to the business has interfered with his attachment to his child and stolen from him the joy of being a dad. How can we release people from these fears? Right now I’m praying that he find enough success to alleviate his concerns and trying to be patient (which I’m not good at), but I’m concerned that fear will always dominate his decision-making on this issue.

Yes, indeed it has become a port of our post-modern doctrine to see conceiving as a problem, or even worse. I have come to believe that is a necessary rhetoric to justify a contraceptive promiscuous lifestyle.
I feel pity for Jane, knowing that there are many women like her.
Vasectomy has underestimated dangers. It turns a man into a grumpy eunuch. So, as his spouse you not only loose your future children, you also loose your man.

I think stories like this points to the need to discuss these matters *before* marriage.  Sadly, our culture teaches us to “go with our feelings” for important decisions like marriage and reasonable reflection is utterly discounted.  My heart and prayers go out to Jane and all the other men and women with similar stories.

2 comments: First, the women (and men) in this situation remind me of the silent suffering of abandoned spouses who have been given a divorce but are striving to still live their sacramental marriage faithfully. They don’t “fit” in a neat box in our society and go through a lot of hidden pain - all the while witnessing to the indissolubility of marriage, just as these women and men who desire children witness to the great gift children are.

2nd. I understand that this article is not about infertility, and that you’ve written very compassionately about infertility in the past, but I’m wondering if the statement about infertile women who seek to “force into submission” their “shadowy antagonist” of a reproductive system could have been worded any differently. Of course the suffering of an infertile couple who both desire children is different from that of one spouse whose husband or wife denies them children…but of course, too, faithfully Catholic infertile women suffer greatly from the lack of children and aren’t trying to “control” their fertility, just get it to function normally! Infertile women unwilling to go the IVF route are another group of hidden sufferers, I think.

But Rob B, what if you did talk about this stuff before marriage and you were on the same page, but then your spouse changes their mind later?? That’s what happened to me. My husband and I were both devout Catholics when we married. We talked about absolutely everything before marriage. We went through marriage preparation, we went on an Engaged Encounter retreat, we took an NFP class, we were virgins on our wedding night, the whole nine yards. Now, after nine years of marriage and three surprise pregnancies while using NFP to avoid, my husband wants to use birth control. And he has also mostly lost his Catholic faith and is basically agnostic. How could I have ever forseen this happening?? It seems like the Church is in complete denial that this stuff can happen to people who did everything right.

On the flip side are men who want to have more children but whose wives decide to “close up shop.” This is generally considered OK because the wife would be the one to suffer through pregnancy and care for the children through infancy and toddlerhood, and it’s “her body” to with as she pleases. I think these men are also denied any sympathy, and seen rather as villains who would want to keep their wives subjugated by turning them into “breeding machines.” It’s as if our society thinks it’s impossible, or at the very least pathological, for anyone to desire a large family. While I agree that yes, it’s ultimately the decision and responsibility of each individual to decide what to do with his or her body, I also believe that within a marriage both individuals should consider the feelings and desires of their spouse as well. Unfortunately, if we have accepted the prevailing idea of our modern society that the purpose of marriage is to fulfill our dreams and desires (without requiring any growth or sacrifice on our parts) is it any wonder that we see our spouses as enemies when their desires (about family size and a million other things) don’t match our own?

“Vasectomy has underestimated dangers. It turns a man into a grumpy eunuch. So, as his spouse you not only loose your future children, you also loose your man.” - So says Albert, above. (note: the spelling should be LOSE, not LOOSE)

Jane’s may be a sad story but there’s no need to spread untruth. A vasectomy severs a man’s vas deferens and does not affect his hormones. It is also not as easy to reverse as some people have blithely suggested. Attempts to do so are often unsuccessful. It is clearly a major family decision.

Kind Regards, KHoward.

“A fundamental belief in secular society is that the female reproductive system is something to be feared and controlled. Thus, only women whose stories validate that “truth” have their stories heard.”
.
Where the hell do you get that idea? The same source that Todd Akin got his medical degree?

Vasectomy does have underestimated dangers.  The spermatozoids are supposed to be reabsorbed by the body, but they are not readily so and tend to accumulate in joints, which can become chronically inflamed after some years because of the immunological system trying to deal with the spermatozoids there.

Just wanted to add that my situation is different but my pain is the same.  My husband and I have three beautiful boys and I have secondary infertility.  We love our boys but the pain of not being able to have more has been difficult and most people just don’t understand.  We’ve been told to appreciate what we have (which we do more so because of the secondary infertility)and get over it. I’m not askingfor sympathy but rather an acknowledgement of our longing and the grieving that goes with the unfulfillment of the longing.

What kind of idiot is Jane that she stays with someone who makes her life so miserable???

Thank you for this post. It’s about time the childless were heard. Not to have children hurts every day. Every single day. I get sick of parents telling me how lucky I am to have time for various pitiful activities that are just substitutes for a family anyway. Sure, I appreciate my free time and try to use it to serve God, but… it’s not the same.
Thank you.

Thanks for above comment-i have heard it all, including keeping my spouse away from outsude work and her “dreams”.  But can anyone believe that women are incredible creatures and mothers are called to be the greatest of all, that is, helping God bring life into the world?  That to emulate Mary is the greatest act a woman can do?  We have list this sense of holiness.

No matter how many children one is blessed with, you should be at least open to life; we should all help women and men enjoy the beauty-and understand the tribulations are part of God’s plan-of motherhood and fatherhood, the Domestic Church.

“But only rarely will you hear the story of women who saw their fertility as a blessing, and deeply desired to receive the gift of children, but were denied the opportunity because of their spouse’s use of contraception.”
.
Isn’t there some Catholic thing about wives not having to consent to sex with contraception, or at least not enjoying it and staying stiff until the “trauma” is over? Also, don’t women have the option of annulment if their husband demands using contraception?
.
I’m sure husbands have the option of annulment when the wife is infertile, or can at least hire a concubine or female servant to take his seed. “Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great!” They don’t mention ovum in the Bible as far as I know.

@ Serena ...  I hear you, and I feel the same way.

I can empathize with women who want children but can’t have them. This article, however, is another “people are starving in Africa, so clean your plate!” fallacy. You expect women (and men) who use contraception—in or outside of marital relationships—to feel guilty because there are people who have infertility problems? How will it help them if people have children they can’t feed or support?
.
The hard fact is that there are MANY circumstances where women don’t want children, and as contraception has been practiced throughout civilization (even if you don’t want to believe this), and there is no reason (except some misguided “faith”) to exclude sex from a close relationship.
.
You people who claim to know what God/Jesus wants have no idea of poverty.

Claire: This is the logical progression of thinking when you have a society which says that only a woman can decide what to do with “her” body—not even a husband. Here in the U.S. it is impossible for any father, married or otherwise, to save the life of his unborn child if the woman makes up her mind to abort. Period. So, now we have a reversal situation where the father decides he doesn’t want anymore children and won’t discuss it with his wife. What did we expect? There are many more far-reaching implications to the abortion issue than just the horror of butchering unborn children. Our whole society has been changed for the worse. We wonder why there are so many divorces, crime, rampant sexual perversions and societal acceptance of unheard of deviancies!  Why??  It is the natural evolution of a society that has lost it’s moral compass and soul.

Good point, Sister Terese Peter.

Gloria:  wrong, wrong and wrong.  I would elaborate, but your sarcasm and ridiculous claims don’t warrant my time and energy.

Dear Jane,
Keep praying.  I had the same problem.  Looking back I realize that the abusive childhood my husband suffered, and being raised without Christian faith made him despair at some level.  He had a vasectomy after our fourth child behind my back.  A stranger-than-life, chance meeting with the physician who performed it was how I discovered it.  I was utterly devastated.  My husband was “Catholic”, and I thought it impossible that he was capable of such treachery.  I felt such anguish, so betrayed.  My husband went back to the doctor who performed the surgery and said “I would rather lose a limb, or lose my life than lose my family.”  The reversal was successful.  I became pregnant soon after.  We still look upon this son of ours, and his subsequent siblings with wonder, and yes, an anguish that will always remain when we look at them.
“Jane”, what comforts me, is to look upon the men in the bible who stumbled and failed.  Think about Peter,David, Solomon, Abraham…Conversion does not happen on just the day God calls us, it is a process.  It is different for everyone.  Keep praying to St.Joseph for your spouse, love him a lot. Keep praying for the light and grace you need to know what you must do. “Lord, that I might see!”  God will not abandon you.  My husband and I have gone through some tough times, where his faith was not the most important part of his life, but this has all changed.  He is a very faith filled man who loves God deeply.  He’s finally truly, deeply, happy.  He weeps for the years he lost, when he couldn’t trust or love God.  To be perfectly honest, without a shadow of exaggeration, he is like a saint now.  We are intimately connected in a way I never thought possible.  Give your sorrow, and your whole self to God, and know that I too am praying for you.

Claire—then answer my original questions:
.
Isn’t there some Catholic thing about wives not having to consent to sex with contraception, or at least not enjoying it and staying stiff until the “trauma” is over? Also, don’t women have the option of annulment if their husband demands using contraception?
.
I’m sure husbands have the option of annulment when the wife is infertile, or can at least hire a concubine or female servant to take his seed.
.
In addition: If this article is not an underhanded attempt to degrade contraception by emphasizing the pain of infertile women/couples, why is Jennifer making an unfounded premise that secular society is biased against fertility?
.
Just telling me that my comment was wrong doesn’t say anything, except that you are pretentious.

I didn’t say your second comment was wrong (that’s a matter of opinion, as opposed to your original comment which made absurd claims about Church teaching).  Like I said, it’s not worth my time to explain Church teaching to you regarding those first three questions, since your sarcasm and ridiculous assertions (staying stiff, concubines)make it pretty clear that you wouldn’t take it seriously anyway.

Gloria:  Excuse me, but there is one sure-fire way to avoid children if you don’t want them and that is called ABSTINANCY. DON’T HAVE SEX. Women want a “choic” to do what they please with “their” body. Well, if women are so smart as they claim to be, why not make those choices BEFORE they involve another human being??  Why not choose to not have sex so that another human being has to pay the price for your mistake??  After all, that is exactly what abortion is. Let’s not pussy-foot around the issue. Sexual intercourse is not some new, innovative act that some brilliant scientist invented in the lab. It has been around since life began. AND, the ramifications of sexual intercourse are as old as the act itself. Let’s stop playing “poor, little girl” for once and accept the reality of self-indulgence.

Thank you for bringing this story to light. I am 39 years old, with 4 beautiful children, ages 8, 6, 4 and 20 months. My husband and I are both practicing Catholics. For the last year, I yearn for more children in my heart. My husband feels overwhelmed by the possibility of more children, and so we have been following NFP. We have gotten in some serious fights on this issue and I told him I am suffering and that I do not want to resent him for not being open to children. I try and attend daily Mass, and offer it up to God. There is such a sadness in my heart, I cannot explain it. And yet, many people can’t even comprehend that I feel a sense of loss since I have four children that are healthy already. I am going to purchase the book Sex Au Naturel (sp) for my husband and ask him to read it. He is a good man, and he is struggling with this issue. I pray for him and ask God’s will to be done. I will pray for Jane and all women and men in this situation. Only through God’s grace can we move forward.

Spiritual motherhood is a flower waiting to bloom…never-married single women have this to offer in service of the Lord.

wow, unilaterally getting sterilized. the husband’s action was not only an offence against having children, he violated his wife’s trust. fertility is shared between a couple. In a marriage it isnt ones fertility isnt just someone’s propert, but the contraceptive culture thinks it is. I can’t believe the wife had so little support from her friends; this is, in a way, a case of infedelity.

@ Gloria,

The connection between the secular, contraceptive culture was only made so that Jennifer could explain why so many people don’t see the denial of children as a loss. The point being that those ‘brainwashed’ into thinking that children, babies and pregnancy are a burden or punishment (as Obama puts it)—- they can’t understand why anyone with a child or two would want another, and that she should be grateful she’s not burdened. 
Sorry, I’m saying exactly what Jennifer said, but there’s really no other way to put it - it is so clear.
.
It’s not at all about the ‘starving children in Africa’ theory. It’s about accepting and recognizing other people’s loss as loss. 
As my personal example of having to grieve my fertility as I’m now 42 and still without a husband to make babies with.  As a modern day sit com or drama would put it—the secular world pokes fun at the fact that women spend 20 years trying not to get pregnant and then are surprised that when they’re ‘finally ready’ - they can’t get pregnant or must use extraordinary means to do so.
Where in my case, I wasn’t having sex because I wasn’t married. And now my fertility is ending and I don’t even get a parting shot to try - because, as is increasingly evident - most men are in non-committed, committed relationships and unavailable to me!!
Meanwhile, most people assume if I had ever wanted kids I would have had them! I dunno, via some magic Jack & the Beanstalk sperm I suppose - considering I’ve never had a husband!
.
As for your other assertion, well, I’ve been Catholic for 42 years and I’ve never heard of some ‘Catholic thing’ about a woman being stiff to endure her husband’s sexuality.
To the contrary, we’re pretty sure Catholics have the best sex lives.

Your questions in your first comment asked about the Church’s position on certain issues, but given your sarcasm and continued insults to Sister, I think I know who you are now, and will not continue to respond to you.

To anyone else who doesn’t know who Gloria is:  she’s a troll who periodically haunts these posts.  She is an atheist college student who took the summer off but apparently now is back.  Obviously she has more free time on her hands when school is in session, and she also has friends who help her to comment here under a variety of names (they all share the same computer).  To respond to her is to encourage her to insult our faith, and I’m sorry that I did that before I realized who she was.

2Gloria: It is clear that you are not open to anything but your own selfish whims. Yes, I am celibate and have been for many, many years. It IS possible to live a celibate life and to be happy and content. Many, many have done it before me and many will continue to do so despite naysayers like yourself who have become slaves to your own need for instant gratification. You are so smug and pleased with yourself that you are reduced to insults. The truth is that I have been in both Catholic and public schools. What does that have to do with anything?  I know lots of people who have had nothing but public education who believe in living a virtuous and pure life solely for God or their spouse. Believe it or not, living a chaste life is not only for singles, but it is also for married couples. But, I’m sure you wouldn’t understand that nor would you find any redeeming quality to it. Your last statement/question tells volumes about who and what you are. There is a saying somewhere about the advantage to keeping one’s crude comments to one’s self…

Claire: Thanks for the thumbs up regarding “Gloria”. It is a shame that people like her seem to have one goal in life and that is to detroy the Catholic Church. To me, that is just proof of the TRUTH that embodies the Church and her teachings. The devil will do anything and use anyone to destroy the Truth, as Christ Himself predicted. satan also tried to destroy Jesus. It is no accident that Mel Gibson decided to portray the devil as a female-like entity in “The Passion of the Christ”. Through abortion, artifical contraception, the drive for instant gratification in all things, and the whole radical feminist agenda, the devil has managed to undermine the consciences of good Catholic men and women.

I too am in a situation similar to Jane’s. My husband is a non-catholic but prior to marriage I was strongly encouraged by many that his lack of interest in raising children would pass and that he would change his mind. I was young and naive and not very educated in my faith. So, I tOok a leap of faith in what my family and friends told me and we got married. We were unexpectedly blessed with a beautiful baby girl in 2006. I have yearned to have a large family but husband has denied me this gift. I have considered pursuing an annulment but can’t bear the thought of having to share custody; not getting to be a part of every special moment; not getting to spend every birthday with her; not getting to see her face light up on Christams morning. He is great with our daughter and she loves him dearly. My heart aches beyond measure to have more children. My daughter also longs to have a sibling and has made that very clear to my husband. I too have wondered who to turn to b/c no one I know is in this same situation. Sometimes I feel so stupid for having agreed to marry this man. Intimacy is basically non-existent. I have talked to a priest about it and he feels that we should use contraception. This blew my mind that a catholic priest was encouraging this immoral behavior.  I feel zero attraction to my husband and I truly think his position on children has pushed me to this point. I am lost and hurting and confused! I love my daughter souch and I am incredibly greatful for her but the pain is still there. I pray diligently about this issue and for my husband but some days are hard to get through b/c instead of seeing progress he is digging himself a deeper hole.

Jen, thanks for bringing up this subject.  It’s very difficult for me to talk about it because I just know someone will say the wrong thing and scratch at emotions that are better left alone.  Even without my broaching the subject, there is no way to prevent careless, unsolicited comments. Less than a week after a very disappointing visit at the fertility specialist I was at a public event when a neighbor quizzed me with “Well, you ARE going to have children, AREN’T YOU?”  She could not have known about the ectopic pregnancy that ruptured, the physical and emotional scars, and the gloom of that doctor’s office.  Adopting two children isn’t good enough, either.  Several years later, another woman asked “TWO children?” with a disapproving (“You must be contracepting”) look.  At these times, and all the others, all I can manage is a weak smile before my get-away.  You know what I love?  When a mom OFFERS her new baby for me to hold. That’s the greatest!

@Amy P: You asked “How many cases of depression, self-loathing, and other psycho-somatic illnesses such as fibromyalgia…” are caused by the type of situation discussed in the article. 

Fibromyalgia is NOT a “psycho-somatic” illness.  Brain images of people with fibromyalgia are different from brain images of people without this very painful disease.  You’ll know that fibromyalgia is real if you develop the disease.

Clinical depression is also NOT a “psycho-somatic” disease.  It’s caused by chemical imbalances in the brain.  It is also not just sadness/mild depression like everyone experiences at times.  It’s not cured by buying a new dress or going to the beac for the weekend. Clinical depression must be treated properly as it can lead to suicide.

Self-loathing is not a disease but a psychological problem for which people need help. It may be combined with clinical depression and contribute to suicidal thoughts. People with self-loathing need help. Take it seriously.

And nobody should ever be told that their disease is “psycho-somatic.” That implies that the person is either faking or lying.  Imagine how that feels to someone with fibromyalgia who is in pain and suffering from extreme fatigue, fatigue beyond anything you’ve ever experienced.

Show some compassion, please.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jennifer-fulwiler/the-silent-suffering-of-women-denied-children#ixzz248Rk7Iyq

Of course Gloria has free time to rant: she’s a women’s studies major.

Did you giggle when you posted the clitoris removal comment?  Really mature.

Deb, I knew you would recognize “Gloria”  (this week’s name).  Yup, preteen age boy humor (except that it isn’t really clever and it isn’t really funny).

Jennifer, thank you for posting on this topic. When my fourth was a baby, on two separate occasions, acquaintances felt the need to tell me that they were sad to have stopped after two children because their husbands did not want larger families. One of the women was pressured into having a tubal ligation because her husband didn’t want to undergo a vasectomy. I didn’t know what to say because I was caught off guard. I was surprised that seeing a woman with a baby could prompt them to reveal something so personal and painful.

May the Holy Spirit comfort grieving spouses, and inspire the rest of us with gratitude for our own blessings and good counsel to offer our friends.

Sarah, so your husband told you that he was against having children before you got married and you married him anyway knowing that, and now (just because YOU changed)you think HE should change?  What you called a “leap of faith” was an “act of stupidity”.  And you think praying diligently is going to make a difference??  Boy, you really are an idiot.

This is an interesing discussion and the thing that stands out here to me
(as least in the comments coming from married women and men)is the lack in communication between the spouses. So much so that while they seem to be able to open here annonymously they are totally without the skills or the compassion to communicate these needs to one another. I would suspect that many other areas of their married lives are suffering also. While I think it is unconcionable for either a wife or husband to undergo sterilization without the approval of the other spouse, if you are truly Catholic you should know this is NOT an option for you. It actually would seem to be grounds for annulment in the Church.
I am also sympathetic to men ( I am a woman, mother of sons, whose lives
have been made miserable by acquistive women/wives who think my sons should work themselves into insolvency in order to supply their vast material needs.) What guy in his right mind will add one more mouth at the table when he is struggling with debt his wife has incurred through her insatiable appetites for more, more, more of everything! These women have more serious problems than not enough kids! They don’t seem to think they have enough of ANYTHING! My sons do not complain to me but I see the burdens they struggle with and the worry and hurt in their eyes. Knowing how to be content with what one has is a great virtue in marriage and life in general. No one gets it all. Surely *some* of those commenting here may see in themselves this pure selfishness. Of course, some women are truly struggling with fertility issues in themselves or husbands but I see another whole category of very selfish spouses out there. First they get their husbands in debt for the big house, then the country club dues, the two expensive new cars, the elaborate vacations, and then the trophy kids. I call them trophy kids cuz they don’t really want or know how to love and raise kids. Most end up in day-care whether the wife works outside the home or not.
I have passed menopause so maybe I am just an old crone… so just saying…

It’s strange in all the comments that no one has mentioned that direct sterilization and abuse of NFP as a permanent contraceptive are both mortal sins. The everlasting state of the man’s soul should be mourned, because in choosing to flout your ability to reproduce, and undermining your marriage, you are committing a damnable offense that imperils your soul and that of your spouse. If you have a spouse who refuses to have, or have more, children, do they know they are committing an act on par with murder, adultery, theft, taking God’s name in vain, or becoming an atheist? And before someone attacks me for being judgmental, I’m the messenger here. Don’t like the message, take it up with the Church. It’s her infallible teachings, not mine.

I just wanted to reach out to others and reaffirm that we’re not alone.  My husband, a Protestant, has also “put his foot down” with regard to children.  I have used birth control, under protest, for many years and will be informing him of my intent to discontinue it very soon.  I fear that because reasoning with him (re: NFP and matters of faith) has failed and I choose to discontinue using birth control without his consent, that this will cause a rift, if not destroy, my marriage.  I must fear only God, not man.  I only pray that I will have the strength I need.

@Amy I would like to echo Katholica’s challenge of your myth spreading over the serious rheumatological and chronic disease of fibromyalgia. It is not any kind of mental illness and it does a great injustice to those of us who suffer with it every day (in my case over 10 years with ME and POTs/OI as well as other co-morbid illness). I have never had a mental illness.
Many people do get depression with these hideous diseases. Hardly surprising. And when we are faced with accusations of psycho-somatisation it doesn’t help.
Would you tell someone with MS or cancer it was psycho-somatic? Even though depression is as prevelent with people with diseases as the ones I have?
The World Health organisation has classed fibromyalgia as a rhuematic disorder and ME which often goes with it as a neurological disorder
More recent research shows Mast Cell disorders.
On ME the research continues on XMRV despite the rescent debacle over it.

Please DON’T write about subjects you know nothing about - it’s damaging.
I’m sure you meant no harm, but so many of us have suffered at the hands of the “it’s all in yer ‘ead” brigade.

Sorry this was off topic but it needs saysing.
God bless Jane and bring her peace in her suffering.

As a single woman with no children it is hard to be too sympathetic.
I promised myself I would never marry anyone who did not have the same
values and agree with ALL of the teachings of the Church, before or after marriage.
I knew if I did I would be sorry down the road.  Most of my friends compromised their
their Faith.  These issues need to be discussed before marriage.

@Sarah,
First I’m sorry that “billy” made such cruel comments.  He should be ashamed of himself.
Second, I’m very sorry for the pain that this wound is causing you.  I too have suffered some serious wounds in my marriage and have felt very estranged from my husband because of it.  What has helped me is to turn to God and cling to him and really tell him that I’m really relying on him to help me to remain faithful to my marriage vows, because really it is only through the grace of God that that is possible.  And then I began praying for my husband to grow in holiness.  Just that.  Not that he change his mind on this or that issue, just that he grow in holiness, that he become the man God wants him to be.
It has helped me.
May God bless you.

Don’t feed the trolls, folks.

Terri wrote:  “It is not just those who don’t stand with the Church on these teachings who can be thoughtless or even cruel, whatever their true intention may be…those of us who are Catholic and following the Church’s teachings as it pertains to being open to life and avoiding pregnancies for grave reasons must never be flippant when speaking to others.  I was a little shocked to hear people make judgmental statements about couples with one or two children.  They assumed those couples were not faithful Catholics without knowing anything about their situation.”

Claire answered:  “We can talk about the Church’s teachings without pointing the fingers at individual families or presuming to know their motives or situations.”

But even when we are talking in hypotheticals, we have to be sensitive to the fact that a hypothetical can feel like a pointing finger, and can feel like evidence that people will assume a motive.  I am sure Catholics who have one, two, or no children due to serious reasons or inability to conceive are acutely aware that from the outside their family looks no different from “those families.”  We have to stop using “those couples who only have two kids” as shorthand, even hypothetically, for “couples who stopped being open to life after two kids.”  The only thing it costs you to be more sensitive is a little bit of extra breath, and if that’s too hard it is always possible to say nothing at all.

As Terri said, “These teachings are not easy and we must never just fling them at people.”  “Fling” is a good word for putting the teaching into any old words and just throwing it out there.  If your words lack compassion—and accuracy, I might add—you may as well not say them.

Maria, thank you for your kind words!

Bearing:  I happen to be one of those families who only has one or two children (I have one, through adoption), and I said nothing about talking in hypotheticals or about talking without compassion.  So I’m not quite sure where you got that from.  I said that it is possible to talk about Church teaching without pointing fingers at individual families, and I stand by that statement.  The Church teaches openness to life.  There is nothing wrong with saying that, and I (with my small family) am not offended when people say it.  It can be said without accusing small families of a lack of openness to life.  I never said anything about tsk-tsking about “those families who only have two kids”, so again, I’m not really sure where your assumptions about me are coming from.  But given my situation, as someone who tried very hard and very unsuccessfully to get pregnant and stay pregnant, your presumptions about me are way off-base.

Posted by J. on Monday, Aug 20, 2012 12:13 PM (EST) === I feel your pain J.  I too am infertile (and in a cruel twist of fate so is my husband…go figure) and we endured years of “when are you guys going to get pregnant” because my husband & I believed our fertility was our own business and didn’t tell anyone and everyone about our situation; this was especially hard when family members would become pregnant; it was as if a gigantic spotlight was focused on us. Then the questions morphed into “why don’t you have kids yet” when people would learn we had been married for XX number of years. Now, after nearly 30 years of marriage, I am still quite shocked at the questions that persist about our lack of children, even to the very pointed “what, did you never want them?”. And as much as I feel so sorry for Jane and others like her - having to live with that kind of betrayal in their midst - I do have to say that, like J’s comment above, at least they HAVE children. At least they can get pregnant if they want to; living with the knowledge that you can’t and never will…is a pain that goes so deep it knows no bottom.

I agree with you, Kris.  I definitely have empathy for Jane’s situation, as well as for people who suffer from secondary infertility.  But being unable to bear any children at all jacks the pain up a notch.  It can be very isolating, because even Catholic infertility forums are full of women who have had several children following infertility and miscarriages.  Sometimes it seems like people with never-resolved infertility are few and far between (not that that’s a bad thing, but it can add to the feelings of isolation).  In my case, the adoption of my son has made the pain of infertility worthwhile, because without it I wouldn’t have him, and I wouldn’t trade him for anything.  Also, we were very open about the fact that we wanted children from day one, so that spared us some of the obnoxious “why don’t you have any kids?” questions.  But I really feel for your situation and J’s.  You both have very heavy crosses.

Claire:  thank you for the understanding. Because while there may be support groups and others to talk to about infertility - unlike situations like Jane’s - the fact is that once you tell people in your life that you CAN’T have children, they too shut down. It is of course every couple’s fear (at least those who want children) that they won’t be able to have them; so our situation of mutual infertility is a stark reminder of what CAN happen. So understanding is usually very far away when we finally admit we can’t have them. And we all have our crosses to bear…none heavier than your own.

All I am saying, Claire, is that while (as you said) we *can* talk about Church teaching without pointing fingers at individual families, not everyone takes the time to do so. 

It was more an elaboration of your point than a rebuttal.

Real Pain.  Real Loss.  Not only via contraception but also abortion and spontaneous abortion.  We should be silent no more.

Bearing:  thank you for clarifying.  I had the impression that you thought I was discussing Church teaching in a way that was insensitive to small families, and I’m glad that my impression was wrong, because that’s not something I would ever do.

Thank you so much for writing this: “He was worried about the expense and work involved with raising any more children, and wasn’t interesting in taking the time to learn natural family planning methods. Against her wishes he had a vasectomy, and also refused to discuss the possibility of adoption.”
Jane’s not alone. It’s my story too!

Posted by Mary on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2012 1:30 PM (EST):
Real Pain.  Real Loss.  Not only via contraception but also abortion and spontaneous abortion.  We should be silent no more.

.
Gotcha, Claire!!!!

What’s the one thing frazzled young moms always hear?  “These years go by so quickly—enjoy it while you can!”  Which is sort of like getting a severe sunburn and hearing, “Summer will be gone before you know it—enjoy it while you can!”

Oh, settle down.  I’m not really saying that spending time with your nice little baby is a blistering agony.  As the proud owner of a schnoogily, schnoogily little baby girl who has two pearly little teeth and the cutiest, wootiest style of scooty crawling that any baby in the history of ever has ever invented because she is brilliant, believe me when I say that there is nothing nicer than babies. It’s true:  Babies do grow up incredibly quickly, and the special joy of the baby years melts away like fog in the midmorning sun.  I’m not looking forward to the day when my kids will be gone.

Still, there is only so much joy a person can stand. I can remember, for instance, having three children, all in diapers.  When my husband came home in the evening, and I would feel confused, unsure of how to deal with something that wasn’t a bottom.  I knew he had many wonderful qualities, but my favorite thing about him was that he could pour his own juice.  All day, every day, everything was up to me, me, me, and even though I loved my work, it was unrelenting.

In short, I was stuck in Babyland.  Babyland is a wonderful place, where all the voices are squeaky, all the clothes are adorable, love and affection flows freely, and where mothers often go to lose their minds entirely, and would trade their immortal soul for five minutes of adult conversation and an uninterrupted cup of coffee.

So when I see a young mom struggling wearily through the day, I don’t tell her, “These days go by so quickly,” even though this is true.  What I say is, “The years go by quickly—but the days sure are long, aren’t they?”  And then I say,  “Don’t worry—you won’t always be stuck in Babyland.”

I have a similar story to this one getting with a man who has 5 kids and then i have one by him but him to tell me no more that i cannot habe anymore kills me he wont even talk to me about it at all everytime i do he begins to yell at me and al my family sayss is o well dont knpw wut to tell you i have been overly depressed and sad and sometimes jusy cry fand cry and cry sometimes i get angry about it i am 23 years old and should deserve to habe one more baby

Thanks Jennifer - your article further made me realize why I do not appreciate the question “so are you going to have (more) children?” (I have 5 and was just asked again today):  1.  it reflects the bias of the questioner (usually that anything above 2 or 3 is unnecessary), 2. if the contraceptive-minded parent answers “no” then is found to be pregnant later, all will now assume that baby was not wanted, 3. for a woman who cannot conceive (a friend just had her 10th miscarriage, so I am especially thinking of her) then it is salt on a very tender wound, and 4. it can expose a rift in a marriage that does not need to be public (was pondering this last one thanks to your writing).  Plus, whereas I can hope one way or the other, there are no guarantees when it comes to life.  It is in God’s hands.  We just hope to say “Yes!” to His will.

If Jane’s husband had realized that he was still morally obliged to abstain during Jane’s fertile time, perhaps he would not have had himself sterilized.  That’s right, in my opinion, the repentant sterilized spourses are morally obliged to abstain from the marriage act during the fertile time.  My argument is spelled out in a chapter of “Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis for Morality.”  This opinion is not popular but the ecclesiastical “censor librorum” regarded my text as a “more probable” opinion.  Ignatius Press allows me to have that chapter available at our NFP website, so here’s the URL: http://www.nfpandmore.org/The Repentant Sterilized Couple.pdf

With so many comments one can see the wisdom of St. Paul admonishing believers to be “equally yoked” when entering marriage.  If both the husband and wife are in submission to Christ AHEAD of their spouse then from that obedience the Lord will bless that marriage in whatever circumstances arise and (here’s the plus)—He will provide both the man and wife His “peace” regarding all things.  Unfortunately, most of our priests are ill equipped nor do they have any experience to cover and teach on certain aspects of Paul’s letters.  Keep in mind this earth is NOT our home.  We are here only temporarily be one single, married, with or without children.  Our earthly lives are only a millisecond in light of eternity.  We are to be focused on obedience and submission and He will provide us peace —a peace the world cannot understand.  Most people get into difficulty when they place their needs ahead of what God has planned.  Failing to seek the Lord’s plan *before* moving ahead with yours denies Him the opportunity to bless you to the max.  It is the wise man or woman who seeks His counsel in all matters of life.

“Casting Crowns” I married a devout Catholic who converted me to the Church teaching on Humanae Vitae, after Catholic schools had misinformed me. But he had a change of heart when we faced challenges in our marriage.
Being equally yoked is a great idea, but no guarantee of harmony in this area of marriage, especially when we are surrounded by the culture of death.

Thank you Jennifer for telling Jane’s story as it is very similar to mine. I have three lovely daughters but suffered three heartbreaking miscarriages between the pregnancies, and when my third daughter, now ten, was born with Down syndrome, my husband said “no more” without consulting me. I was open to adoption but our finances wouldn’t permit it.
The hardest part is the world thinks three children is more than enough and wonders why I am sad when I should be rejoicing in my freedom, and faithful Catholics often make inaccurate assumptions about my situation. My oldest is leaving home this week for Franciscan University of Steubenville, and.as proud as I am of her, that leaves a very quite home, where I wanted a bustling houseful of children. I try to offer up my suffering for the women who abort babies with Down syndrome.
My 15 year old had a beautiful dream last month which gave me great consolation. She dreamed of our family as it will be in Heaven, with our three missing children. She dreamed that two were teenage boys just the right ages, and that she had another 12 year old sister, who was, as she said, “spoiled”. How my heart soared when she shared this dream, which she recalled vividly. I bring it to mind whenever I mourn my loss, and remember that God sees our tears, and is preparing my home in Heaven, full of children!

Discussion before marriage only goes so far. People lie and they change their minds.

@daisy:  [“Discussion before marriage only goes so far. People lie and they change their minds.”]  What a horrible marriage is that !!  No personal integrity or commitment?  People who lie and change their minds?  Clearly one partner or both were never truly submitted to Christ in all areas of life.  Being Catholic, going to Sunday mass or following church teachings does not mean you personally have sold out to Jesus.  You have missed the point of “denial of self.”  Yielding means giving oneself over to the Lord in all aspects of life as He did for you.

@Leticia:  [“But he had a change of heart when we faced challenges in our marriage.”]  I am sorry for you and your situation.  Real men who are committed to Christ (and their marriage vows made in His presence) STAND—and do not turn and walk away.

This isn’t restricted to women whose husbands have decided they have enough children.

There are quite a few girls my age whose husbands are reluctant to even begin having children (though it was certainly not expressed prior to marriage).

One friend agreed with her husband that they would be married for 4 years then start a family (they were 22 when they got married).  At the 4 year mark he declared he wasn’t ready and wanted to wait until 30.  At 30 he declared he still wasn’t ready.  Now, 2 years later, he’s not sure he’ll ever want children of his own.

My situation is different.  My husband wants children but everything has to be ‘ready’ first and as a worrier and over planner things never seem to get to that point.  At 32, my peak fertility is behind me and any fertility is quickly passing.

Although our husbands may not ever say “No, we won’t have kids”, the outcome will be the same if they just wait us out.

@Jessica:  Why was this not expressed prior to marriage?  Such cases are biblically grounds for divorce when marriage is entered into under a false commitment made to the spouse.  marriage is about sacrificial love for the spouse and not self loving of what’s only good for me.

Casting Crowns, like I said in my comment above, my husband was a devout Catholic who agreed to use NFP when we married and is now an agnostic who wants to use birth control. People really, truly change sometimes. They can change after marriage. There is no way to predict when this will happen. It doesn’t mean they weren’t truly Catholic to begin with. Jen Fulwiler was an atheist who became Catholic after marriage. I don’t know why it’s so hard to believe it can happen the other way around. Lying before marriage can certainly be grounds for an annulment, but not a legitimate change of heart.

I think what can happen to people is that heat and pressure either makes them break or makes them even stronger.  What some (particularly those with poor formation to begin with) can resort to is a kind of duplicity that pays “lip service” to an ideal, but then when personal sin makes it seem like the sacrifice required for that ideal seem too high, they stumble.  This forces them to a lie (duplicity), or an agnosticism that they can live with so they don’t have to look at a liar in the mirror.  What is so sad about this kind of marriage is that it loses it’s divine spark.  It’s not that God is punishing the couple, it’s that what is truly attractive about marital intimacy gets smothered by this worldly attitude.  To put it bluntly, I wonder how many men would think twice about sterilizing themselves if they realized that once they smother out this divine spark within themselves, they cease to be very attractive to their faithful spouse?
God can raise from the dead, and cure diseased limbs.  Yes, he can restore a marriage beyond our wildest hopes. My husband reversed his vasectomy, but his spiritual conversion took longer.  Once he gave up everything for the pearl of great price, everything changed dramatically.  I experience a love with him that I couldn’t have even imagined when we were really young and first crazy in love.  I’m afraid if I read what I just wrote, in my darkest moment, I would have failed to believe it.
Please believe it!
Don’t waste another minute.  Get the counseling you need.  Bare your heart to your spouse, offering unconditional love and forgiveness. Touch and love them. Ask your Catholic friends for prayers.
Don’t give up unless you absolutely have to, and then realize that true marriage is at stake.  God will bless your efforts, but he forces no one.  If there is hope for your marriage and tender love, fight for it, don’t settle in for something less.  Choose wholeness.

I have read Jane’s story and the comments. I too feel Jane’s pain. I am blessed with five children but when I was pregnant with my fifth my husband had a vasectomy. During my 4 th and 5 th pregnancies I experienced preterm labor. With the fifth child I ended up on bed rest at week 14. My husband felt it was too much. At the time I didn’t object very strongly because I was in constant pain, contracting for 23 weeks. Unfortunately, the priest at our church at the time told him there was nothing wrong with his decision. Even afterward when he went to confession because he realized it was so wrong the priest said it was ok. That was 12 years ago. I never imagined the effect this would have on our marriage. Like Jane there is no one to talk to. I have the people who think I have too many children. Since this time we changed churches and at our current church my friends have on average 10 children. I do not promote 10 children but the openness to life that they live. I feel as though part of my life was stolen. My children now 20-12 years old ask why we didn’t have more children. I do plan to tell them because I don’t want any of them to experience the pain I have.  It is a shame that this is such a forbidden topic. I have just recently confided in a couple of my lifelong friends about this pain. Not to mention the pain and suffering this has caused in my marriage. It is very different to discuss things with potential spouse and make decisions than when we are faced with life struggles. I spoke to a counsellor at One More Soul a few years ago and he did tell me to consider the fact that my husband thought he was protecting me and didn’t want me to experience the pain he saw me in while pregnant. I will pray for aloof you who are experiencing this pain and ask the same from you.

@ Cathy, yes.  I would be honored to pray for you, as I have been praying for “jane” and the other good souls here who have experienced this agony. I got through my darkest moments when I called out for help, and not just to those already in heaven.  My marriage was healed through the communion of the saints and particularly through St. Joseph, whom my husband and I thank every. single. day. after mass.

There’s another wound too, which is the loss of siblings. I don’t know what my parents did but there is an 11 year gap between myself and the next closest to me in age. I know it wasn’t infertility. I know that the doctors didn’t want me to be concieved. I have often longed for the siblings that would have filled that gap so I didn’t feel so alone at times. It makes me so sad when I hear of families with this great sorrow. I had surgery for endometriosis and a nurse that was pregnant was looking forward to being sterilized after the birth of her child. I was ready to cry. There was another woman at the same Catholic hospital boasting of her tubal ligation. I find it so sad that our society makes people think that children are burdens rather than the precious gifts they are.Or they brainwash women that me, myself, and I takes priority over the awesomeness of life. I would have loved to have had at least a dozen children but God hasn’t even given me a husband and my window grows smaller for even one. I will be one of the elderly that has no one to love, care for, or protect them in this ever growing hostility to the weakest members of society.

I MARRIED AT AGE 29 AND WAS WOEFULLY UNPREPARED TO BE A HUSBAND AND FATHER.
MEANING: EMOTIONALLY UNPREPARED.
AFTER 2 CHILDREN WE WERE DOING OKAY.  THEN I QUIT MY JOB WENT, THRU VERY HARD FINANCIAL TIMES, THEN OUR FIRST DAUGHTER ARRIVED, UNEXPECTEDLY.
OF COURSE SHE HAS PROVED TO BE A VERY SPECIAL BLESSING.  BUT GOING FROM 2 TO 3 CHILDREN WAS SEVERALLY DRAINING FOR US.
NOT EVERYONE IS EQUIPPED TO MANAGE A LARGE FAMILY

I am married 18 years in a marriage childless by my husband’s choice.
Everyone advised me from the beginning to have a birth control “accident” and he would love the baby afterwards - apparently this is a thing extremely common for women to do, the way they all advised me to. But I could never bear to do that.
It is an empty life. I have made the decision a million times to remain with him and not divorce (which I do not believe in, not even for reason such as this) and in a few years it will become biologically too late for me. This is a great cross.

e, were you married in the Catholic Church? If your husband went into the marriage intending to never have children, you could easily get an annulment. It would not be wrong to get divorced in that case. But talk to a priest first.

I’m a little disturbed by comments like S’s, about how e could “easily get an annulment.” e stated that she has made the decision to stay with her husband regardless of the fact that she is unhappy remaining childless. Just because she COULD get an annulment doesn’t mean she should or even that she wants to. There are likely a great many things about her husband that she DOES love - no marriage is perfect and recommending that a person leave their (even if they have a legitimate Catholic reason to do so) is decidedly UNCatholic, in my opinion. Not to mention that there is NO guarantee that e would find someone else that she wants to be with “in time” to have children. Can’t we do better than secular message boards who regularly advise unhappy women to just “dump the jerk?” I mean, REALLY?

Smoochagator, I don’t understand your comment. A marriage in which one spouse is completely opposed to children is not a valid marriage. That’s the Church’s teaching. We should not put burdens on people that the church does not.

@Smootchagator:  It is not a “secular” message to “dump the jerk.”  A husband (or wife) who either lies before marriage about wanting a family (or then *later* decides one does not) clearly demonstrates unfaithfulness when entering a covenant marriage before God.  Adultery is not the only form of unfaithfulness.  You would have biblical grounds for divorce.  It does not mean you must exercise the option, but the option remains available should you choose to do so.

Casting Crowns, I don’t think you’re entirely correct. Yes, if one goes into marriage intending to never have children, the marriage is invalid. But changing one’s mind later does not make the marriage invalid.

Likewise, adultery in and of itself does not necessarily make a marriage invalid. But entering into the marriage intending to be unfaithful would make the marriage invalid.

There has to be something there at the time of the marriage in order to make the marriage invalid.

@S:  Adultery does not make the marriage invalid, but you do have biblical grounds for divorce.  Matthew 5 does not grant you the right to remarry (so long as the partner remains alive) but you do have the right to divorce for unfaithfulness.  Whether you exercise that choice is up to you.

S - my problem with your comment was that you seemed to be urging e towards annulment or divorce, when she was very clear that she has decided NOT to leave her husband. I am not saying we should lay burdens on someone that the church would not. I am saying that if someone has chosen to stay in an unhappy marriage, we should support him or her.

Casting Crowns - I do consider “dump the jerk” to be a secular (not to mention unkind and unhelpful) message. We may not be using those exact words here, but if the first thing someone says to a commenter lamenting a childless marriage is, “Hey, you can get an annulment for that!” it seems to me that we are doing each other a disservice.

@Smoochagator:  People make all kinds of choices in life.  Some Catholics (now) were married in civil ceremonies before joining the church and some Catholics are married to non Catholics or even to non Christians.  You would have to know the details.  The Kennedys are famous for divorces and annulments.  The marriage may not be sacramental.  If you are talking two Catholics married in a Catholic church and then one is not open to a family, then something is wrong unless there is some health or medical issue which may have surfaced.  There are too many things we don’t know.

Casting Crowns - I am not making judgments on someone who chooses annulment or divorce. You’re right, there are all kinds of variables in the relationship issues shared here that none of us fully understand since we’re just reading short comments on a blog. My issue is with the outsiders jumping to encourage these women to get an annulment or divorce. I think we can do better than that. It’s one thing to support someone through the painful breakup of a marriage, and another thing entirely to respond to a woman’s pain by saying (in effect), “Just leave him.”
.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am not Catholic. I have been married twice and divorced once. I have no room to judge anyone for the poor choices they make in their relationships. I am, however, VERY defensive of women who are working through difficult relationship issues and don’t find nearly enough support for staying in the marriage and making it work. If not for the grace of God, I would be twice divorced right now - I certainly had enough people telling me, when my husband and I were going through a particularly difficult season, that life was too short to be miserable and I’m not doing the kids any favors by sticking around for their sake. Honestly, it was the witness of Catholic women on the internet, women I have never met in person, that helped me work through those dark times. I was determined not just to stay for the sake of staying but to let God change my heart and fill my marriage with joy - which he has done and continues to do.
.
And because I’m fairly certain someone will ask, the reason I read and comment on Catholic blogs even though I am not Catholic is because I have come to respect and agree with Catholic teaching but due to some painful religious experiences in my past have a difficult time actually attending church services/mass, and for this reason haven’t connected with a parish. Someday I would like to start RCIA and hopefully be received into the church, but there is no guarantee that I would be granted an annulment for my first marriage. Regardless, I am trying to live the life I have now according to God’s design.

@Smootchagator:  Thank you for your sincerity.  Every follower of Christ will have his or her own walk with the Lord in our lifetime.  That you have received witness, help and guidance from Catholic women here on the internet is by His grace alone.  It was no accident.  The Lord is going to meet you where you are —but He loves you too much to leave you “as” you are.  When we lay our burden down before Him it does not mean the burden is necessarily removed but the Lord does promise that He will strengthen us to carry forward.  Remember, there is God’s perfect will for your life (which we typically fail at) and then there is God’s “circumstantial” will for your life.  Whether by our own poor or unwise choices or by injustices done to us, the Lord will meet us in our circumstances.  He will move Heaven and earth on our behalf when we seek to obey Him.

@Smoochagator: Your comment about “easily getting an annulment” is interesting.  Sadly, it IS incredibly easy to get an annulment in the Catholic Church, you just have to be willing to pay for it.  Provide information that your spouse will acknowledge, and wammo - divorce - Catholic style! It’s a great big SUPER LOOPHOLE - but it’s a legitimate “easy way out” -  wasn’t that your point?  That maybe it shouldn’t be so easy and that a little effort might be involved?  I’m also pretty sure that “Dump the Jerk” IS secular terminology - haven’t found it in the bible yet.  I read the posts above and have no doubt that many people are suffering - but so many more just enjoy reading about their pain in order to preach to them - Catholic style.  You should not have to feel the need to explain that you are not Catholic, or explain why you read a Catholic blog - it’s your RIGHT to read this.  The last post by “Casting Crows” seems to forgive your other comments because God led you to this blog to be helped by Catholic women.  That seems a little condescending to me. I think there’s something wrong when someone like you, offering your honest and thoughtful opinion, feels the need to explain your own religious background.  I think (just me thinking, Casting Crows, - I believe that’s still permitted) that instead of offering solace to people, these comments simply spout Catholic doctrine - in a most pious way. @Casting Crows - how is that helpful?

@Kellyann:  The name is Casting Crowns, not crows.  I see no reason to insult my name by intentionally calling me by another.  It not my intention to be condescending in the least.  Smootchagator indicated she had received compassionate help from women on this Catholic blog.  The Lord leads us where He will at the prompting of His Spirit.  If the Lord had led Smootchagator to a Baptist or Evangelical blog to receive help, compassion and/or prayer then I would support His will in that direction as well.  I have no problem with that.  God is neither Catholic nor Protestant.  When you are communicating on a Catholic blog, you should expect to find a preponderence of Catholic people.  My apology if you felt anything I said was condescending.  In fact, my comments reflected nothing which promoted Catholic doctrine.  Doctrine had nothing to do with it.  You seem to have an underlying irritation with Catholics and Catholic doctrine so why are you here?  So how exactly are YOU being helpful?

Annulments are not easy, and they require extensive effort.  They take at least a year, and require lots of red tape and are only approved if there is evidence that the marriage was not sacramental in the first place.  Given the pathetic sacramental prep that is pretty widespread today, it doesn’t surprise me that so many marriages end up being deemed unsacramental during the annulment process. 

There are plenty of empathetic comments on this thread, even among the ones that also contain Catholic doctrine.  The most unhelpful and hostile comments here don’t contain any doctrine at all.

Yes, non-Catholics have the right to read these blogs.  No, they are not obliged to explain why there here.  But given the amount of trollish comments that appear on these blogs, it is helpful to know where someone is coming from when they post.  Because often people are here for an anti-Catholic agenda (this is sometimes overt and other times subtly disguised) that is not helpful to the discussion.

@Casting Crowns - I read you name wrong, please excuse me -I don’t really see how it is insulting, unless you are intentionally insulting “Smoochagator” by consistently putting a “T” in the name - or did you just make a mistake?  As to how I am being helpful, help was not my intention. I saw an article, read some comments and felt bad that it seemed Smoochagator had to keep constantly defending her position.
@Claire - What is a trollish comment? Except for the people who felt sorry for the situation of the woman in the article, most just go back and forth making sure that one spouse or the other is to blame. I’m also not sure what an anti-Catholic subtly disguised agenda is - but if you find one, please point it out (if you don’t mind).... Posted by a Catholic who made all sacraments at the appropriate time, married in the Church, take the children to Mass on Sunday, utilize (sorry - utilized) Catholic schools, until our great city closed so many that only one of my children could be placed. (Child # 2 now needs to attend public school and go to CCD)

Kellyann:  what is a trollish comment?  Let’s start with Gloria’s vulgar comments to Sister.  This thread does not contain a subtle anti-Catholic agenda, but unfortunately that has appeared on many other NCR threads.  I maintain that the majority of the comments here are empathetic.  Some are rude (calling Jane an idiot for staying with her husband, for example), but most are empathetic.  You accuse people here of spouting out Catholic doctrine rather than empathy, yet you are spouting out anti-Catholic anger rather than empathy.  I find that a little ironic.

@ Claire:  Check your definition of irony, I’m not sure that something can be “a little ironic”.  Also, I asked what a trollish comment was and you showed me rude and vulgar - is that your definition of trollish? If my anger is anything - it is Catholic anger, not anti-Catholic. But then again, as we are all using our own definitions, perhaps I am just annoyed by so many “Captains of the Ship” stating that their way is the Catholic way, and many are opposite of each other.  I also stated that I was sorry for “Jane” and her situation - and said nothing rude or vulgar to Casting Crows. (Unless you count the misspelling of her name, which was sloppy on my part). As for accusations - whom did I accuse of what?

Kellyann:  I’m really not here to argue grammar with you, or to take orders from you.  Accusations:  you accused people here on this thread of spouting doctrine rather than empathy.  My definition of trollish:  anything that distracts from a constructive dialogue.  Rude and vulgar seem to fit the bill (and also seem much more deserving of your over-the-top anger than the issues you’re targeting).  I didn’t accuse you of saying anything rude or vulgar to Casting Crowns (whose name you misspelled once again, since you seem to enjoy exchanging insults about spelling and grammar), so I’m not sure where you got that from.  No one here said that their way is the Catholic way, so I’m not clear on where you got that from either.  The Catholic way is faithful to the teachings of the Church.  As long as someone isn’t violating Church teaching, they can make a variety of different decisions and still be Catholic.  I don’t anything in your comments about feeling sorry for Jane.  I would be happy to continue to dialogue with you if you can be civil, but you are very close to that line.  If that pattern continues, don’t expect me to respond to any future mean-spirited comments that you may decide to fling my way.

\“e\” made her own choice to stay with her husband and, even though it was painful, she was honest enough not to trick her husband with a \“contraceptive accident.\” She does not mention whether they discussed children before marriage, or that he changed his mind—she chose to stay.
.
Is in really \“good\” of you Catholic mothers to rub her face in her decision by suggesting her marriage wasn\‘t valid when she chose to stay and be his wife?

I too, have yearned to hold another child in my arms.  I actually got pregnant nearly 2 yrs ago, had a miscarriage and husband was very angry. I had a miscarriage and honestly, he was glad in the end that we never had a baby last August, 2011.  I have been in postpartum depression since losing my little angel baby and deeply resent my husband.  However, we have 3 other children and one cannot end a marriage due to selfishness of one spouse. We are all selfish in different ways.  But differing degrees of selfishness.  I have a friend who has been in this situation, and my sister also.  I believe we women probably number in the millions.  Not including the women of China.  Oh, our neighbour whom I hardly see or know let me know she wants another child but her husband doesn’t.  So, their 3 yr old daughter will not have a sibling.  It’s happening all over the place and it’s a place of loneliness, aching, and grief.  My husband also threatened a vasectomy and actually equated my desire to practice NFP with his desire for a vasectomy….I believe this degree of selfishness has also caused me depression, anger and resentment toward him, my husband.

Sally, I am so sorry for the loss of your baby.  I have had miscarriages myself, and I can’t imagine going through it without empathy and support from my husband.

To Thirst for Truth…..I think you’re passing judgement on us here.  How do you know what size our homes are and how many children we all have?  Do you value a life at all?  Dissassociate yourself from your son’s situations and don’t judge us.  We live in a small townhome.  We don’t have a huge home, and I don’t spend much money on myself at all.  I wear shirts with holes and frazzled edges at home because that’s what we have.  We are not poor and we are not starving.  And yes, we pour out our hearts here because our spouses don’t want to discuss this issue.  There’s noone else for us to talk to.  So stop judging, and pray for your sons.  Maybe you could talk to them and tell them how it pains you to see their wives spending and spending and spending.  Tell your sons how you feel.  God has planted a desire in our hearts to bring more life into this world.  Do you really think God will be sad or angry if another child is born????

To all those who think this issue and contraception/sterilization are grounds for annullment:  Annullment is based on whether or not it was a valid marriage from the get-go.  What happens after the wedding day doesn’t normally play a part in considering if there’s an annullment.  Affairs and sterilization are not grounds for an annullment. Unless, and this is the tricky part, it can be proven that there was no marriage on the wedding day and that the unfaithful spouse had no intentions on remaining faithful.  Sorry people, these situations are not grounds for an annullment.  Abuse is another case.  Not grounds for an annullment.  Mental illness, not grounds for annullment.  Can these things destroy a relationship?  Definitely.  Doesn’t mean there’s no marriage.  However,they look at the capacity and understanding of/for marriage of the spouses initially.  It’s very tricky.  In fact, I have a cousin who was granted an annullment, on what grounds, I don’t know.  However, he’s the one who had the affair!!! And HE was granted the annullment. Everyone thinks his wife had mental issues.  Perhaps she did.  The witness that the church got to sign papers and answer questions had no idea about the affair, either.  So, is this even a real annullment?  Only God can judge and this man knows what he did….

My Lord how selfish some of your husbands are (and unloving).  Hardly Christ-like since husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves His church.  They are to love unconditionally and sacrificially.  Perhaps they have not been instructed in the faith—or tney are self serving and really don’t care.  I’ve always thought our priests are so ill equipped to teach on anything regarding biblical marital relations since they have no experience.

@Sally:  [“Annullment is based on whether or not it was a valid marriage from the get-go.”]  There are Catholic rules for *us* and then there are exceptions if your name is KENNEDY.  Joe Kennedy, son of Robert Kennedy, former Congressman, and brother of Robert Kennedy, Jr., “secretly” had his 12-year marriage to Sheila Rauch annulled by the Vatican. Rauch only found out about the annulment years later, after Kennedy remarried.  Since Sheila was an Episcopalian, Kennedy no doubt used that tactic to justify requesting an annulment after 12 years when he found a new “honey.”  What’s even more egregious is that the Vatican granted the annulment with, of course, the Boston Archdiocese greasing the skids.  The Kennedy name and their $$$ carry a lot a weight in the church.  How ridiculous.

Am I missing something here, or has Kellyann started using Casting Crown’s name to post under?  Will the game-playing ever stop?

@Claire - did I spell that correctly?  I have no way of knowing exactly what you are missing, but I use my own name - it’s you playing the game - why would I post under someone else’s name?  Nothing in the last two posts of Casting Crowns sounds remotely like anything I wrote. Why don’t you try to be civil and stop tossing about unsubstantiated accusations? I’m not sure about you, but I’m a grown-up, and have no desire to use someone else’s name to make a point.  Just as I’m sure Casting Crowns would not appreciate a “name hijacking” and would probably set things straight.  But you bring up an interesting point———-how many names do you have on this blog?  It wouldn’t occur to me to use a name other than the one my mother gave me.

@Clair, no we are not the same person.  You should not be upset with the truth about the annulment granted to Joseph Kennedy after 12 years of marriage to his wife Sheila Rauch.  Was not the marriage valid when the sacrament was given and vows taken before God?  Annulments consist of a 3 man panel with one role being that of “Proctor”—Defender of the marriage.  As a Catholic you and I should be shocked (at least in this case) for how this was administrated.

Actually Kellyann, the last comment by Casting Crowns sounds a lot like your earlier comment about annulments, and sounds nothing like Casting Crowns’ previous comments.  But you seem to have selective memory when it comes to your earlier comments, and also a very limited amount of self awareness because you are the one who lacks civility, and you definitely engage in game-playing.  Which I will no longer respond to.  So if you want to waste your “breath” addressing me by name (no matter how you spell it), go right ahead.  But I’m not playing.

You see, Claire? I\‘m not the only one who get\‘s angry with your tactic of discrediting people instead of responding to their point.
.
Why didn\‘t you ask if Kellyann or Casting Crowns was me?
.
If husbands and wives can\‘t agree on having children, the marriage is pretty much on the rocks and it can be grounds for divorce, if not annulment. The first step should be marriage counseling to fix the relationship. Many children of bad marriages grow up not wanting children of their own.

I’ve responded to plenty of points.  I also know game-playing when I see it, and yes it did occur to me that you’re behind this.  But with you I don’t know for sure till the vulgarity and preteenage boy humor sets in.  So I didn’t want to make any premature assumptions.

@Claire:  What exactly is your point here?  I’m not sure anyone knows what you are objecting to.  Please be clear so the rest of us understand.  Thank you.

I started explaining it in my comments on 8/20, and now I’m done.  It was a nice quiet summer, but now that college is back in session, the games have resumed.  And yes, there are plenty of people here who know exactly what I’m talking about (Deb, for one).

Yeah, maybe \“Deb\” will back you up. How do we know you aren\‘t using her name? After all, \“pot meet black\” is one of your favorite sayings.
.
Looks like you did get Kellyann and Casting Crowns off their lines. Ad hominem is a Catholic specialty.

@Claire:  Sorry, but if you can’t make your point in one or two sentences, don’t expect the rest of us to scroll up through miles of combox chain to find your prior correspondence with other people.  It’s not worth our time.  However, (in typical NCR closing lingo) “but I will pray for you.”

@claire, I “get” you.  “Gloria” plays games all over these threads, bad, bad, little troll pet! @smoochgator, I’m praying for you and the others who have suffered here.  Blessings on all…

I really don’t know what the game is, but if you check my post at 2:39pm yesterday, August 28, you will read my post of compassion, encouragement and understanding toward smootchagator.  When kellyanne entered in being critical of me that’s things got all off track.  Claire, your futher comments have not helped solve the problem because I don’t understand your point.  Let me say to you Claire —I am interested in your point if you would not mind telling me.  My apology to you for my snippy remark.  I am just tired of all these people juming in and taking everyone off course.  One does not realize (at the time) that this is what is happening.  It may very well be the work of trolls.  I don’t really know.

Anna Lisa:  yes, people who have been on NCR for a few months now are quite familiar with Gloria and her little games.  Which definitely coincide with the school year (didn’t we have a nice break from it this summer)?  I’m tempted to unsubscribe from the comments because her games are getting kind of tedious and I’m tired of her comments clogging up my email inbox.  But then again,  the two things she wants are either to be engaged in the game playing, or for us to go away and stop discussing the issue at hand.  So I think I’ll put up with the annoying emails for now.  Something to offer up…

@Casting Crowns - Claire’s first point was that I began using your name to post after using “Kellyann”. Then I pointed out that you would have probably spoken out if someone began using your name.  Then you told her we were separate people, and she responded to ME, not YOU - so now she apparently thinks you and I are the same person.  Apparently Claire also believes that Gloria is not herself, and is in fact, quite possibly “us”.  @ Claire -Please excuse me for believing that we’re all entitled to our own opinion - I’ll try to remember that on this blog.

Wow, some friendliness between Kellyann and Casting Crowns!  Who could have predicted that 24 hours ago!

C\‘mon Claire—show your \“evidence!\”,

Let\‘s get back to some real issues:
.
\“Jane\” may be a real person, but Jennifer is using her as a straw (wo)man to preach against the \“evils\” of contraception \“demanded\” by abusive husbands. If it\‘s that important of an issue between a husband and wife, there are options for the partner to leave the marriage and marry another if s/he wants children enough. If not, the Catholic Church rules dictate that the wife obey her husband and your choice is between getting a divorce or taking communion.
.
I would suggest that people married to partners who have decided not to have (more) children after all have an open discussion and/or get marriage counseling instead of venting your frustrations to a Catholic blog. You\‘ll start an online debate, but you won\‘t get real information for making a decision—but then Catholics don\‘t really want you to have a choice.

Well, there’s a good example of ignorance about Catholic doctrine!

@Gloria;  “[the Catholic Church rules dictate that the wife obey her husband and your choice is between getting a divorce or taking communion.”].  Wrong.  The wife is NOT to obey an overbearing dictator husband.  If you have the remotest idea where Ephesians 5 is, read it and then we might be able to have an intelligent discussion.  At least I’ll be able to.

I really do believe marriage is a life and vocation in ways additional to having children. I believe the commitment we make to a person aat marriage really is something that before the face of God stands even when they change their mind about having children, or whatever other sinful attitudes, views, or practices they may enter into.

I am not being abused or tormented that I might feel forced to separate from my husband. I believe many purposes and blessings are present in our marriage, and that my commitment to it trumps a supposed obligation to do anything to make sure that I bear children in life.

It does hurt deeply, and one day it will not hurt any more. :)

E, I am sorry for your pain, and your decision to remain in your marriage is a valid and noble one.

Thanks for chiming in again, e. Your commitment to your marriage, the good and the bad of it, is very uplifting. I believe that there is selfishness and trial in EVERY marriage. In some relationships the circumstances may become truly unbearable, and the decision to separate is not one to make lightly. But I believe that most spouses can find good with the bad and if they are determined to enjoy their marriage, they will.

Claire—when you\‘re right, you\‘re right. I forgot another option—the one e\‘s friends advised: Fake a \“conception accident\” and the partner will eventually come to love the child—and resent the deception of his/her spouse. After all Catholics believe in lying for a \“good cause.\”

By the way, Kellyann/Casting Crowns—Claire still believes you are one person, and MY IMAGINARY FRIENDS!
.
Check out Jennifer\‘s next blog on her presumptions of Third-World Culture.

@Gloria…..Thank you for pointing out the article and Claire’s comment. At least she refers to Casting Crowns and me as your “imaginary friends”. As the “s” makes “friends” plural, she must believe that we are two distinct people, even if we are figments of someone’s imagination. You do like to stir the pot, Gloria, (and that seems to vex Claire something fierce), but I thought that was what these blogs were for - expression of one’s thoughts.  If people didn’t disagree on some points what would be the reason for writing? As for Claire, well, it seems to be a theme of hers to accuse people of name switching, and she seems to be an expert on   “pre-teenage boy humor” - it helps her to detect those “in disguise”. It’s now time for me to return to the Batcave…oops, I mean the kitchen - dinner time EST.

The reason why Claire gets so disgusted is that “Gloria”, under about five different names says things like: “I’d drink a glass of water while I watch Claire burn”. (So you can see why she’s always wondering if that new female name that crops up in the com box is a new persona) “Gloria” uses graphic sexual language to describe priests, nuns their mothers…etc.  Really gross, hateful, outrageous behavior.  Sometimes I think Gloria operates out of a condo in hell since everything Catholic infuriates her.  IF he/she is a real human being, than perhaps she’s had something very painful and disillusioning happen which would cause such angry acting out.  Since this is probably the case, I can’t really get mad at her/him, and I pray for our little troll pet, and generally make an exception as far as trolls go. (affectionate pet on the head)
@e, thank you for your words.  You are a good wife, and God will reward you like he rewarded St. Monica.  My husband and I prayed for you, “Jane”, Smoochgator and all the others here at daily mass this week and in our rosary intentions.  God Bless you.

Annalisa has lost any shred of respect I had for her months ago, and she knows why.
.
She has been obsessing about it ever since.

Anna Lisa:  you are too sweet.  I know I need to follow your example and have more empathy for Gloria.  I did apologize to her on another thread last week when I made a rude comment.  But I still need to do better.  You are right that anyone who invests this much time spreading hate, rather than focusing on other forms of “recreation, is probably coming from a place of pain.  I’m sorry that I keep losing sight of that.  I hope you’re having a good Labor Day weekend.  It was nice of you to take time out from it to remind us all about the need to be charitable.

Oh “Gloria”, I really don’t know what to tell you about my supposed obsession.  If anything, I don’t think about what I told you enough.  My poor MIL is really suffering right now, with her cancer. I wish I was the type that could visit her more and bring her fresh baked cookies, but I hide a bit behind my kids doing it. I think what I told you about my MIL gives me some kind of indication of what torments you so much.  I’ll say it again to you very s-l-o-w-l-y.  Sexual abuse, even when *consensual* is still sexual abuse.  What freaked you out? That I indicated that she shouldn’t have entered into a relationship with her brother-in-law?  That’s pretty basic in my book—even if the man’s wife was a battle ax.  In the case of my MIL, the original relationship decades ago was the genesis of a life-long problem with similar abuse. I’d call sleeping with other people’s spouses a problem.  I suppose it’s natural that her sexual philosophy would lead her to reject God, her Catholicism and various other ideas about family and monogamy. This has reaped unspeakable sorrow for her, and her family. Gloria, read what Jesus said to St. Faustina about souls in a state of grave sin.  He is a God of MERCY. He is ever the father yearning to welcome the prodigal son. All He asks is that we throw ourselves upon His heart. He promises never to remember our transgressions. It doesn’t matter what we have done, because He wants to welcome us into His loving arms.  He says to St.Faustina that He will heal us even if “our sins are scarlet”, and our soul like a “rotting corpse..”  What extravagance of love!  He loves all of us like that. I think my MIL will accept Him some day, but it will probably be a cliffhanger.  For the time being she still says proudly: “I kneel to no one.” We’re praying for her, but are sobered by the fact that God respects our free will.

I had forgotten about that situation.  That was back when “Gloria” was going by “Angela”, right?  Well, join the club.  Gloria/Angela doesn’t respect me either.  She’s ashamed of me, or for me, or something to that effect.  Anyway Annalisa, none of your comments have ever come across as remotely obsessive, so I’m not sure where that comes from.  Again, have a great Labor Day weekend!

Anna Lisa, while I appreciate your explanation, I did not post disgusting comments about clergy, nor did I post anything vulgar.  Every time someone new makes a comment it does not seem fair to accuse them of lying about their idenity.  I have no desire to join in an arguement that began long ago.

An even bigger question is how badly and disrespectfully has “Jane” treated her husband that he no longer trusts her to work with him for the good of their marriage.  Has she completely abandoned being his wife, friend, and ardent lover to instead be “mommy-and-me” 24/7?  Does she still place the health of their marriage first, or has she made it clear that other things like mommy-hood and hanging around with the coffee clutch are more important?  In my experience “marriage” is to the average “Catholic” woman just a checkmark on a list to get kids and have a permanent hook into a guy’s wallet.

Well, I’m a Catholic woman, and I married a man whose income is less than 1/2 of mine.  So the permanent hook into a guy’s wallet wasn’t a huge factor for me.  But parenthood was, and thankfully it was for my husband as well.  In my view, that’s a much more manly quality than a husband’s income.

@Claire:  A shame that the majority of “Catholic” women don’t share your view, in my experience.  My buddies and I are all involved Catholic men in our church and it’s nearly universal our observation that women, even Catholic women who are called to be “one flesh” marry their husbands then emotionally cast them aside once children come into the picture.  The bond and respect between man and wife should not be rejected just because the title “mommy” is added…“wife” should always be first and more important…and guarded tenaciously.

@Tim…you sound like a real “catch”.  Speaking from personal experience, and as a “Catholic” woman - I brought in a bigger paycheck than my husband before we decided that I would stay home with the children during the early years.  During that time, my daughter was diagnosed with cancer - the easier (and more practical choice) would have been for my husband to tend to her, while I brought home my “wallet”.  My husband (and our family and friends) will admit that he could never have handled straddling a barely 3 year old to hold her still while a nurse inserted an IV in the bottom of her foot at 3am because all other veins were useless.  As infants and small children do require 24/7 care…...who do you expect to do it?  Having only the information in the article to go by - where does it say that Jane stopped being her husband’s (insert dramatic sigh) friend?  Did she stop watching Monday night football?  His wife? What does that mean - does he have clean socks? The article clearly states that HE changed his mind - hey - his reasons may be valid - but before the marriage he made one agreement, and then changed his mind - how are financial reasons Jane’s fault?  Maybe he should get a better paying job.  Ardent lover?  You have been watching too many soap operas.  The health of her marriage before the care of her children? Yeah, find me a woman who will place their husband above her children.  And find me a MAN who would want her to.  Because all women want a giant family and a “hook” into a guy’s wallet.  FYI - “coffee klatch” of German origin - what exactly is a coffee clutch…..desperate women “clutching at coffee mugs?”

Your experience is definitely very different from mine.

@Kellyann:  A shame you decided to go immediately personal and negative.  I will pray for you.  Hopefully your priest will have advice on dealing with personal anger when you go to confession.

Tim, I’m not thrilled with the angry tone of some of Kellyann’s posts either, but given the situation she just described with her daughter, how about cutting her some slack?  Your initial post came across as somewhat combative too. While I’m sorry that your wife has apparently failed to make your marriage a priority, the sadness of your situation doesn’t come close to touching the trauma of having a child with cancer.  It’s probably inevitable that someone who has lived with that is going to have occasions of a hostile attitude.  And while the situation with her daughter isn’t directly related to this post, I don’t see how anyone could read about it and then completely ignore it in their subsequent response.  That account of the IV insertion broke my heart, and it certainly puts things in perspective.

@Claire, we usually miss each other’s point somehow, but I appreciate your post, and your even-temperament. You seem to take many posts to heart, and I am sorry if what I wrote upset you. The story was not meant for shock value, but rather to demonstrate to Tim that his glib assertions about women and children seem cartoonish.
@Tim, I agree that my comment was directed personally at you because it is your statement that I find insulting to women in general.  You speak of your experience with “average Catholic women”, and you and your friends agree that your observations of women are “nearly universal”? Don’t you think that’s a little over the top?  You express your opinion of what happens when the title “mommy” and “mommy-hood” enters into the marital relationship. Those statements mock the family unit. What about “Dad”? Does that dynamic not enter into the mix? A marriage changes when children enter into it - for both parents.  Maybe I took your last remark too literally - so please set me straight - do you really believe that a woman should put her husband ahead of their children - that “wife” is more important than “mother”? Not just different, but more important? As the head of your family, would or do you expect your wife to place your needs first always?  I would think that partners in a marriage would want to guard the family unit tenaciously, not simply a wife’s role in the marriage. As for confession, I can come up with plenty to say without your input - and as my priest is rather tech-savvy and reads these blogs….he’ll provide advice on anger if he thinks it necessary. I would probably get called out on the sarcasm first, though.  Prayer can be a touchy subject, and I don’t say this lightly - but I’d prefer you save your prayers for someone other than me.

Kellyann:  I didn’t take it as “shock-value”, and don’t worry about upsetting me.  You have every right to post about something that is integral to your experience of motherhood, which is pertinent to this thread.  And anyway, I think as mothers we all need to hear about experiences like that, even if they are painful, because it puts things in perspective and helps us to remember what’s really important.  I hope that your daughter is doing better now.  (And thank you for saying that I’m even-tempered, but my husband will get a good chuckle out of that one!)

Tim, do you and your wife use NFP?  If not, I would strongly suggest it.  The “average Catholic woman” does not, and I believe that is the root of the problem you expressed.++++++++++++++++++++++

My wife and I have had some horrific things hit us and our family, but we don’t use it to excuse our bad behavior.

My wife and I have always put each other first…one flesh.  Children are an addition.  They are here today and if we have done our job well they will be gone after they become adults…healthy, independent adults not conditioned to glue themselves to one or both of us.

Our children know that our marriage comes first…and that they benefit from that truism.  The branches (kids) can’t be healthy if the trunk (marriage) is not healthy and cared for first.  They know not to interrupt when Mom and Dad are talking to each other…especially when we are taking “us” time like we do every night right after dinner.  When V and I cook together (which is often), more often than not we dance at least once.  The kids know that the first dance is always Mom and Dad.  They can request to cut in on later songs.

Eight years and four kids (3 boys & 1 girl) later, we ALWAYS hold hands, kiss often, and we put each other first.  The kids know they are not allowed to sit or walk between us…Mom and Dad hold hands and sit together.  They sit or walk outside us…a symbol of our unity and indivisibility.

In the morning I make her breakfast and we spend half an hour under the gazebo talking and holding hands.  She often makes a lunch for me (with love note) before kissing me goodbye and starting work in her home office.  (Working on her third book…first solo book.)  I take the kids to school.  She picks them up.

We put each other first in everything, and the kids know that our feeding our marriage first gives them a happy home.

Tim

p.s.  Rebecca:  We do use NFP, which is quite a challenge.  As you probably know, being together intimately alters a lot of the simpler indicators, and unless one of us is ill or unusually tired—we’re parents…we’re ALWAYS tired—we are “together” every night in some way…just like we talked about and promised each other before marriage.

@Claire: You said “While I’m sorry that your wife has apparently failed to make your marriage a priority….”

I never even implied, let alone said, that MY wife did not make my marriage a priority.  I spoke about the “Catholic” women my buddies and I have met.  We all took our time, had very detailed conversations with our fiancees, and made explicit promises of what was expected of husband and wife before we married.  We didn’t just say “cute enough” and marry someone.  We took it seriously…and we are happily married men because of it with happy wives.

What I spoke about is what we see around us and have mentioned having seen to each other.

A shame you chose to imply there is something wrong with my marriage.  I said no such thing.

Those of you who are saying less than kind things about your spouses—for whatever reason—should really take stock of yourselves.  When my wife has an issue with me, she speaks about it to me…and no one else.  Same with my issues with her…her and no one else.

This husband-bashing in public that’s going on…how sad…especially from people calling themselves “Catholic”.

Tim:  your original comment talked about women who latch onto a man for his paycheck and abandon him once children come along, and I took that to imply that this was the case in your marriage.  I’m very happy to hear that your marriage is not like that.  I also didn’t mean to imply that Kellyann is the only one who has had tragedies in her marriage, but I still don’t see how you can read about the experience she described in her comment, and then completely ignore it in your response to her.  I don’t see how anyone with a heart could ignore something like that.  Maybe it’s because I’m a woman, maybe it’s because I’m a mother, I don’t know.  If you look back on the history of this thread, you will see that I don’t exactly agree with everything Kellyann has to say, and I am not fond of her occasional use of sarcasm.  But she is clearly a devoted mother, and in my book that counts for a lot.  And maybe tragedy isn’t an excuse, but the reality is that if I went through what she described, especially if I were currently going through it, I would probably have to sit on my hands to avoid posting comments, because it would be very challenging for me to be remotely civil.

@Claire:  It’s called growing up and controlling one’s self.  I came from a very broken family.  Should I use that as an excuse to be ill-mannered?  No.  I’m an adult…so I control myself.

Emotion is never an excuse for our behavior.  And by excusing it, we only abet those who refuse to behave better.  And at some point…let it go….

@Tim, thanks for clearing that up.  You also raise a point of what the media has done to men in the culture and how young women are being influenced.  Sitcoms have reduced men to idiots and worthy of zero respect both from their wives and children.  Look no further than “Two 1/2 Men” or Two Broke Girls, Married With Children, etc.  Men are expendable.  Even Murphy Brown was praised and celebrated for having a child out of wedlock while Dan Quayle was villified for holding up the importance of marriage and family.  This same philosopy was celebrated at this week’s Democratic Convention.  Women who marry for money as the priority lead very dismal lives.

Well Tim, I’m not the only one who took your comment to imply that you were referring to your own marriage.  Why do you think Rebecca implied that you should try using NFP?  Because she also thought that you were referring to your own marriage.  Your original comment had a very combative tone, so it’s hypocritical for you to fault Kellyann for being ill-mannered (and I also come from a broken home, but that is no comparison to watching a child suffer with cancer).  Who here is husband-bashing anyway?  I certainly have not criticized my husband on this thread.

@Casting Crowns: I am also very saddened by the widespread bashing of the image of man and husband. So is my wife V.  She loved her father dearly…and even more so when she learned some of his foibles and he became more human and less superhuman.

V and I are constantly saddened leaving Mass as we pass through groups of wives whining about and griping about insulting their husbands to each other and doing so in front of their young men and ladies.  Husbands do it, too, though usually at a different place than Mass.  Why would these kids ever think marriage is a good thing?  Mom isn’t perfect and neither is Dad.  Let’s not lie and say they are, but let’s also not denigrate the sacrament of marriage by spreading nasty tales of our marriage to strangers, “friends”, and children.

When V or I hears someone griping about their husband publicly, we try to take them aside and politely suggest that there is a better way to treat their spouse and their kids and themselves than that.

@Claire:  Rebecca did not imply anything about my marriage.  You are reading in what is not there.

@Claire:  I made a general observation.  Kellyann made a personal insult.  I’d like to think you can see a vast difference between observation and personal insult.

Rebecca suggested that you try NFP, and went on to explain that the absence of NFP is the root of the problem that you described in your post.  I take that to mean that she also interpreted your post to be a description of your own marriage.  Like I said, I’m very glad that my assumption about your marriage was wrong.  But it’s not hard to see how someone could assume that you were talking about yourself in your original post.

@Tim:  [“V and I are constantly saddened leaving Mass as we pass through groups of wives whining about and griping about insulting their husbands to each other and doing so in front of their young men and ladies.”]  Amen, Tim.  This is called being “unfaithful” to one’s spouse.  Adultery is not the only form of being unfaithful.  When a man realizes his wife does not respect him, she has wounded him far more than she can ever understand.

@Tim - I called you a “catch”, how is that insulting?  I think it’s great that you and your wife counsel all of those whining “average” Catholic wives.  I find it wonderful that you took time out of your schedule to give me a suggestion about what I should discuss in confession.  I especially find your thoughts on children intriguing…..“They are here today and if we have done our job well they will be gone after they become adults…healthy, independent adults….”  Maybe you could let me in on that secret - how DO you ensure that they grow into healthy adults? Then, in response to Claire -regarding me - you posted… “It’s called growing up and controlling one’s self.  I came from a very broken family.  Should I use that as an excuse to be ill-mannered?  No.  I’m an adult…so I control myself…...And at some point…let it go…”.... Tim, I may be sarcastic, but I am not ill-mannered, nor am I poorly behaved.  If you think anything I posted was “out of control”, then you have indeed led a sheltered life.  At some point, I will “let HER go”, Tim, because despite your strange assertions that if you parent the right way, then there’s always a happy ending, with healthy adult children, life doesn’t always work that way.  (Grown-ups know that, Tim)....Regarding another point -  while others thought that you were referring to your wife, I didn’t think you were married. Then you told Claire that “its a shame she implied…..” She was trying to be nice to you - and you were rude.  She’s mostly nice to everyone, and while she would probably prefer I curb my sarcasm, everyone has their vice.  You like to tell people how to live.  It was your obtuse writing that made you difficult to understand.  So take it for what it’s worth, but some people didn’t take your posts to mean that you live in the episode of Happy Days that you just described your life to be.  So they tried to help with suggestions.

Kellyann:  I’m sorry to say that I have had my own occasions of sarcasm on these threads more than I care to admit.  Yes, we do all have our vices.  You and I have the vice of sarcasm.  Other people could stand to be more empathetic.  We all have things we need to work on.  I can say for myself that if I were caring for a child with cancer, I wouldn’t have a whole lot of reserve left to work on my vices.  But, while I have my share of crosses, I can honestly say that I do not nor have I ever had one that devastating.  So for my part, I will try to guard against being sarcastic on these threads.  I don’t have any illusions that it will happen over night, but hopefully I will make progress, thanks again to you and Anna Lisa who in the past two weeks have both given me wake-up calls about what is important in life.  I hope everyone has a good weekend.

@Claire, I hope you have a good weekend too.  I am now being called to watch a new show called Ant Farm.  I hope it’s not a documentary!

“I’m sure husbands have the option of annulment when the wife is infertile”

As Henry VIII found out, infertility is NOT grounds for annulment.

Very true, JD.  We commit to our spouses in sickness and in health.  It would be a different story if deception occurred prior to marriage (if one spouse knew about their infertility but concealed it, for example).

My heart breaks for Jane and anyone else stuck in this position. But I want to offer the hope that God can and does change hearts, and a sterilization does not necessarily mean that there will be no more children. My mom got her tubes tied after her fourth child and fourth c-section (my parents aren’t Catholic and were both in agreement on the decision). They were happy with four children. My dad traveled a lot for work while my mom had her hands full at home with us. Four kids seemed to be enough.

But over the years, on many occasions, all six of would be gathered, and someone would say, “Who’s missing?” We did a headcount just to double-check that all six of us were there, but we *knew* that someone was missing. All of us felt it. Someone else was supposed to be there but wasn’t. After about ten years of this, my parents discerned that they were called to adopt. God made everything come together and provided abundant signs that this was His will. My new little sister, now seven, has been such a blessing to the family. They would probably adopt again if they didn’t have three adult children, the seven-year-old, and two grandchildren living with them. We no longer ask “Who’s missing?”

Does this right the wrong or heal the pair of a sterilization? Maybe not. But it’s a testament to how God can warm hearts formerly closed to life to be open to it once again. I’ll be praying for all of the “Janes” and their respective spouses in this situation!

I was looking for a paper topic to write in my Womans discrimination and law class and i stumbled onto this article. Who could have thought that a story like this could exist in a culture where the norm is to get rid a of babies, and in a society where having few kids is accepted. It is very rare that the mother wants more,and is refused by her husband the right to have a babies. I just found my paper topic. Thank you Jane for sharing your story, and Jennifer Fulwiler for listening.

This isn’t so much a argument over sterilization but rather one partner wanting more kids than the other. This is something that needs to be discussed with both spouses taking BOTH points of views into mind, so this doesn’t mean just because one wants more means “ok let’s have as many as we can!” but it also doesn’t mean one goes behind the others back to get a vasectomy or tubal. Personally my husband and I are perfectly vine with our three kids and we consider ourselves done.

This is some bullshit selfishness.

If you can’t pay for the kids upbringing, you should be having more kids.

Children in the end of it are a purely logical and financial decision.

You’ve got two kids, and you want more.

Can you pay for it?  No.

Case closed.

“If you can’t pay for the kids upbringing, you should be having more kids.”

Now that makes a lot of sense!  Thanks for a highly intelligent and enlightening comment, which adds a lot to the discussion.