As it has for many people, the news of Osama bin Laden’s death has stirred up a lot of old memories for me: Sitting in front of my television, wiping sleep out of my eyes, seeing a tower with smoke billowing out the side. Seeing the horror-stricken look on a woman’s face as she looked up from a New York street and cried, “Oh no, no! They’re jumping!” Looking at the block of windows where my husband used to work in the South Tower, watching them crumple when it fell, wondering if his old coworkers were okay.
At the time I was an atheist, so the terrible event, as sickening as it was, didn’t trigger a moral conundrum for me. Bad things happen, there’s not much you can do about it, and that’s how it is, the thinking went. It wasn’t until I came to believe in God and started learning about Catholic teaching that I would look back on that awful day and have my mind reel as I tried to absorb one of the most difficult moral truths I’d ever heard: That God not only could, but wants to forgive Osama bin Laden. That even someone who was responsible for a terror attack that slaughtered thousands could ask for God’s forgiveness, and receive it.
The first time I encountered this concept, it was, to put it bluntly, terrifying. I came across a blog post by a Catholic woman named Drusilla, which remains one of the most powerful essays I’ve ever read. She told of witnessing the murder of her grandfather when she was a young child, after her parents had also been murdered. She described how the event impacted her by saying:
Mine was an ancient pain beyond utterance and I could not have said whether I was angry or sad or filled with hate. And until now words had not come along with the tears only pain. But when words did come it did not surprise me that rage accompanied them. That too was ancient. In this time of looking into the past, of accepting that what was there was part and parcel of me and could no longer be ignored, rage had finally been given safe passage and was quite pleased to emerge whenever necessary.
Then one day, years later, when she found herself so consumed with rage and grief that she could hardly function, she heard a voice that filled the entire room. It said:
Your grandfather’s life was worth no more to me than the lives of those who killed him. Your parents’ lives were worth no more to me than the lives of those who killed them. Your life is worth no more to me than the life of every other person I have created.
I was shocked. It was one of those things that I’d read about but had never internalized: God loves murderers as much as he loves the rest of us, even as much as he loves the people whom they hurt. What does that say about our God? What does it mean for us, given that we are called to love as God loves?!
This most difficult of truths has come to mind again as I see Osama bin Laden’s image splashed all over the media, and hear the reports that he is now dead. God loves that man as much as he loved Mother Teresa? God loves that man as much as he loves the people on Flight 93? As much as he loves each of the other victims of 9/11? As much as he loves me? It’s true. It’s completely counter-intuitive to our fallen human nature, which sees love as something that is earned, something finite and fluctuating, something that can be permanently lost with enough bad behavior. But it’s true.
At the end of Drusilla’s post, she tells of the shattering transformation that occurred within her when she allowed herself to try to love as God loves, when she dared to open her heart to care about the soldiers who so casually took her grandfather’s life. “Now I cried because something hard and painful had been pulverized and was being washed from my heart,” she wrote. “I cried because I was worth no more than anyone else. And I cried because I realized that God had offered me a choice and showed me that I could love the unlovable.” In many ways it’s unpleasant to think of people like those soldiers and Osama bin Laden as being loved by God; it’s easier to focus on other parts of the moral equation, to ponder the severe penance they would face, or the possibility that they chose evil until the end and will now face a richly deserved punishment in Hell. But the more we can follow Drusilla’s path and open ourselves to that unfathomable, scary love that’s big enough to extend to even the world’s worst evil-doers, the more we will find ourselves transformed.
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Great piece and I know in my heart it is true. “..for God so loved the world…” “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..” Not one creature lives without God saying yes to their life. If I hate anyone or hold them in contempt - I am out of step with the mind of Christ one of us is wrong and it’s not the Son of God. - blessings - Rene
Wonderful piece, thank you. One of the things Jesus has helped me most with is understanding that God chose the role of Father - it is His will that I see him that way. It helps me, as a parent, to conceive of his love for ALL his children. I am praying today for Bin Laden, but also for all the families he has left without love ones. Not just here in the USA, but in Africa and other places.
It’s not true that God loves any one person as much as He loves any other person. He loves each person fully and completely, but one person’s fullness and completeness doesn’t equal another’s, generally speaking.
It is true, though, that God’s love for the emptiest and least complete man is greater than any man’s love for anyone. If we are trying to love as God loves, most of us don’t love anyone enough.
If Bin Laden is in hell and that is quite possible ( but we can’t presume either way) then God does continue to love him because St. Thomas stated that God has mercy on those in hell by punishing them less. This is in accord too with Tobias saying, ” Thou art just oh God and all thy judgements are just and all thy ways mercy and truth and judgement.”
So Tobias’ words inspired by the Holy Spirit are in accord with Aquinas’ point.
This is the first time I heard of Bin Laden’s death. It is both sad and welcome. May God have mercy on his soul, if possible.
I’m not sure I agree with your point, Ms. Fulwiler, though I wouldn’t go so far to disagree with it either. I think it’s quite possible that God loves some more than others, but it’s a mystery and I don’t quite understand its full ramifications if true. Along general lines, I think first of the chosen people, the Jews, and of the Christians, God’s adopted sons and daughters. Even here, I think that those who cooperate in God’s grace may be loved “more” in a special way. Think of the Virgin Mary, for one.
Ten minutes of internet research was able to build a decent case against your position, but again I stress this is evidence only, not proof. I’m not convinced either way.
“Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous man’s reward.” (Matthew 10:41)
“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? says the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau; I made his mountains a waste, his heritage a desert for jackals.” (Malachi 1:3)
“In the course of its history, Israel was able to discover that God had only one reason to reveal himself to them, a single motive for choosing them from among all peoples as his special possession: his sheer gratuitous love. And thanks to the prophets Israel understood that it was again out of love that God never stopped saving them and pardoning their unfaithfulness and sins.” (Catechism, #218)
“I answer that, Since to love a thing is to will it good, in a twofold way anything may be loved more, or less. In one way on the part of the act of the will itself, which is more or less intense. In this way God does not love some things more than others, because He loves all things by an act of the will that is one, simple, and always the same. In another way on the part of the good itself that a person wills for the beloved. In this way we are said to love that one more than another, for whom we will a greater good, though our will is not more intense. In this way we must needs say that God loves some things more than others. For since God’s love is the cause of goodness in things, as has been said (Article [2]), no one thing would be better than another, if God did not will greater good for one than for another.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, question 20, article 3.)
“I answer that, It must needs be, according to what has been said before, that God loves more the better things . For it has been shown (Articles [2],3), that God’s loving one thing more than another is nothing else than His willing for that thing a greater good: because God’s will is the cause of goodness in things; and the reason why some things are better than others, is that God wills for them a greater good. Hence it follows that He loves more the better things.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, question 20, article 4.)
I certainly believe God loves Bin Laden, wherever the latter is, even though Bin Laden may use his free will to reject God’s offer of love and mercy. Does God love him in the same way or degree he loves Mother Mary? Less certain, for me even doubtful. It could be the empty vessel theory, which is a wonderful attempt, and possibly a correct one, to teach this mystery. I think it was from St. Therese of Liseux. As vessels of his love to dwell in, when we cooperate with that love, we grow and our capacity to love and be loved is greater - spiritually, there is more of us to fill up.
We cannot love everyone has much as we love our own spouse, parents, children, etc…nor do we all love God equally.
This all may be true to be sure, but he still won’t get the promised 40 virgins. So it is a tempered love.
I know this is usually framed as a difficult teaching of the Church, but, as an atheist, I find it to be the most comforting - it’s the bit of Christianity that most makes me wish that Christianity were true. I wrote about this at my blog a bit this morning (http://www.unequally-yoked.com/2011/05/rejoice-not-when-thine-enemy-falleth.html): in my atheist framework, there’s no way to save someone like bin Laden or anyone who is a prisoner of his/her hate. Even without an afterlife, it still sounds like damnation.
Good post. Although I am happy that he was caught and killed, and I believe that to be an appropriate emotion, because of my Christian beliefs I refrain from saying such things like “May he rot in hell.” I never say that about anyone.
If Osama did not believe that Jesus went to the cross to atone for his sins, then, yes, he is in hell.
Souls are redeemed by the blood of Christ. Only in Christ the Savior is a man freed from the liability of guilt, sin, and shame. Our right standing before our Judge is established on one thing only: the finished work of Christ crucified who shed His blood so we could live (John 19:30). We are released from our sins by His blood (Revelation 1:5). He has reconciled us in His earthly body through His death (Colossians 1:22). Jesus bore our sins in His own Body on the cross so that by His wounds we are healed (1 Peter 2:24). We are made holy through the offering up of Jesus’ Body as a sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 10:10). Christ appeared once for all to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews 9:26). God sent His Son to remove the wrath that we ourselves deserved (1 John 4:10). The penalty of sin that is rightly ours is absolved by grace through faith, not by any righteous deeds of our own (Ephesians 2:8-9).
If bin Laden refused to accept the atoning gift then he is in hell suffering for the deeds he committed on earth. That goes for all of us.
I don’t agree at all. The difference in christian beliefs is just that one word, beliefs. You can go around doing producing evil then say i will be blessed by GOD because He has love for all of his children. It does not make any sense as there would not ever be a need to become saved/born again if there were not consequences to your actions. If Bin Laden had confessed his love for GOD before he was killed, yes you would be correct however this man loved only one thing, himself as he killed Muslims who did not agree with his purpose. There have also been many wars fought that were documented in the bible and many warriors who were men of God, Biblical Wars: little teenage David vs Goliath, Saul, Samson, Jephthah, Ahab, Joshua, Gideon. All of these men fought battles that is documented in the bible. Most of you have forgotten why there is a Hell in the first place. The battle of the archangels. When you become saved, you gave your life to GOD, Some of you are too nice until it effects you on a personal level.
I do agree with one thing that was said. GOD do love all people and would forgive them however you must be willing to accept his love and honor him in return. It’s non-negotiable.
St. Thomas answers Joe’s question about how one can make the assertion that “God loves Osama” when Scripture states in numerous places that God hates the wicked in the same question that FILIUSDEXTRIS quotes above:
“Nothing prevents one and the same thing being loved under one aspect, while it is hated under another. God loves sinners in so far as they are existing natures; for they have existence and have it from Him. In so far as they are sinners, they have not existence at all, but fall short of it; and this in them is not from God. Hence under this aspect, they are hated by Him. [ST I, 20, 2, ad 4]”
I’m shocked to find some Christians who claim to love God blah blah blah and yet openly declare their hatred for this man. Unconditional love is tough but love the person and not the behaviour…
I think that some people are submerged beneath the imposition of material and political developments, they had no chance from a young age…It is somewhat a creation of society.
I think this man blamed US foreign policy for the struggles of his people and there are many truths that we are not willing to admit…
I am glad that at least a few people have spoken up against the morally bankrupt sentimental mush this writer proposes as Catholicism. Does Christianity teach that God loves everything He has made? Yes. But “love” is not Mr. Rogers or Mommy. This loving God sent Satan to Hell. And even Jesus, whom so many Christians sentimentalize, as Son of Man, tells a portion of mankind to “depart from me, ye cursed, etc.”
This kind of bilge is liberal egalitarianism dressed up as historic Christianity.
@ Leah: you wrote “in my atheist framework, there’s no way to save someone like bin Laden or anyone who is a prisoner of his/her hate. Even without an afterlife, it still sounds like damnation.” My Catholic viewpoint lines up with your atheist one on this one. I agree—it is damnation. Within the Catholic framework, it’s damnation as well. I think it is possible that someone like Bin Laden could be saved—only God knows his heart, after all. Anything is possible, of course. But knowing what we do of humankind, I think it’s possible the hell he existed in on earth will continue into the afterlife. He was a wealthy, privileged man who took advantage of the poverty and hopelessness of others—I think God’s justice will address that. But ultimately it;‘s up to him to choose the path to heaven or hell, and it’s always hard to reverse one’s motion. I don’t imagine it’s any easier after death.
Osama has no relation to Christian theology. As a martyr for the sake of Allah, he is now in paradise.
Ms. Fulwiler, thank you so much for your use of my post. I’m honoured to have you make the connection between my experience & a man who has evoked so much hatred. It is indeed shocking but God loves Bin Laden too. And quite honestly, whether He loves 1 person more or less than another is not of consequence here (though it makes interesting conversation over coffee or a drink or two). And while Scripture makes statements about God hating some people, it also makes statements about Him loving His entire creation. Jesus unequivocally tells us to love our neighbours. If we are to be Christians then He is whom we follow.
There is a great difference between loving someone & approving of his actions. Forgiveness is not making nice & being friends. Instead, it is marking a debt paid. When I forgave the soldiers who killed my Grandfather & uncle, I accepted that they could never repay me for destroying my family & harming me. I tore up the invoice that I had longed to present to them, that I regularly presented to God & risked living not only without my family but without even the demand that someone make up for my loss. And, I took on the responsibility of praying for God to have mercy on those who killed my family, a practice I continue to this day. I hope to meet those soldiers in heaven & rejoice w/ them in God’s glory; Paul & St. Stephen now see “the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God” (see Acts 7:55 - 8:1 or just read the book of Acts) so my hope may come to pass. But we may not meet in heaven. Perhaps they will reject God throughout their lives. Then again, I may turn away from God & miss heaven while they make it. I don’t know & it’s a waste of my time to worry about it. All I know is that following Christ requires that I love them as well as I can. I can’t say what I were to do if I met them today. Chances are I’d be afraid, at least at first. If they were dangerous, I would act to protect myself & those around me. But that wouldn’t stop me loving them. Love does not discard defense it simply insists that we not rejoice in our enemy’s destruction. So we may rejoice that we have been delivered from a man who has done great evil &, at the same time, we need to pray that God have mercy on Bin Laden’s soul. And we need to forgive because we have been forgiven & because Bin Laden was & may still be God’s precious child.
http://heirsinhope.blogspot.com/
one change, I intended to say that Jesus unequivocally tells us to love our enemies.
God can have him.
What makes “whether God loves everyone equally” more than an interesting topic of conversation is not the comparison between Osama bin Laden and Bl. Teresa of Calcutta. It’s the comparison between me as I am today and me as I could be tomorrow.
The Biblical law revealed Crimes against the person : The penalty of murder to be executed by ” the revenge of blood” (Numbers 35:19-21) which clearly manifested in this case of Bin Laden.
Jesus teaching on the subject of sin ( murder) Matthew5:21,22 ” Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time , Thou shalt not kill ; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgment” Cross reference with Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy5:17)
According to the catechism if the catholic church #2308(5 commandment) ” All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power , government cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense , once all peace efforts have failed.” ****one of the elements of the ” just war” doctrine”
Finally one can reflect on of Jesus parable of the list sheep ( the occasion of this parable was when the Pharisees objected to his receiving the wicked) the lesson of this parable CHRIS’TS PECULIAR LOVE FOR SINNERS ( Matthew 18:12,13 , cross reference with Luke 15:4-7)
This is clap trap nonsense… and a sign of the complete insanity of modern times. Every normal and right sentiment at this time should celebrate the death of Osama. This is a completely normal and just response. To now have to endure sentimental meanderings of quasi-religious writers about “oh God love him too…” or “we can’t be sure he is in hell” etc.
Well if we can’t be sure he is in hell, then hell is a meaningless term that is not worth discussing as it’s like talking about Atlantis, no one knows where it is and no one can go there.
Let’s celebrate the death of an evil irreligious person… Justice has been done and I am sure the angels in heaven are rejoicing that God’s justice has been fullfilled.
If the angel are rejoicing in God’s justice, then they may also be crying that a human soul capable of being saved and serving God may have been lost forever… “We can’t be sure he is in hell” is indeed meaningless if you mean hope of .00000001% is meaningless. But Christians should have hope that there are reasons that he could be saved (not that I know any). Our private sins of theological rebellion are just as bad (as Ms. Fisher lucidly pointed out two weeks ago in her blogpost “All Sin Is Disgusting”), and as Christians we should know better. I want to hope that he is in heaven, because maybe that means it is more likely God will let me in there too. If Obama were born to my parents, and I to his, I wonder just how different I would have been. That I leave to God’s justice and mercy, and meanwhile I hope and pray for all.
“If Obama were born to my parents, and I to his, I wonder just how different I would have been.”
FILIUSDEXTRIS: Do you mean Osmama or did you really mean Obama?
Joseph D’Hippolito, God’s love does not mean a sentimental love absent of justice. While God may love Osama Bin Laden, that does not mean that he approves of everything he does. Rather, Bin Laden chose to sin, to commit wicked acts, thus turning away from God’s love. God can keep loving us, but to sin is our choice. God does not hate people, but he hates sin; he hates wickedness.
Yikes, I did not intend that, or to bring up any political debate there. One can argue, perhaps, a Freudian slip, but I’ll deny it for now. Thanks for pointing that out, Adrienne.
well hmm how can i say he loves osama , where does it say god loves him?
id like to read that, hes sins are unspeakable hes was a evil man i no theres a spot in hell for him
FILIUSDEXTRIS: It seems to be a common mistake.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/02/oops-fox-news-reports-obama-bin-laden-dead/
United !@#$% have themselves to blame for 9/11. They have realized that their assets for oil are running out, and now takes the oil from other countries (middle east). The U.S. is a disgrace to the earth. How would America react if, for example, China took all Americas oil??? (spells WAR) But hey, that’s just my opinion
And by the way… I don’t think Osama is dead. When the US killed Saddam they showed pictures and movies of his execution. Now suddenly, the U.S. is very respectful towards Osama and follows his religion, Islam, that his body must be buried 24 hours after his death. IN THE OCEAN?!?!
(thanks for the freedom of speech)
Excuse me Jennifer,
If Sheik bin Laden did not repent before he died (whenever that was) he is currently burning in hell and God hates him.
Are you Catholic?
people are happy for the death of osama the death they are rejoicing for someone’s death that just doesnt seem right that just shows how wicked the U.S is!!!!!
Damn, you people are thick and stupid.
Excuse me Ace,
If Sheik bin Laden did not repent before he died (whenever that was) he is currently burning in hell and God loves him.
Are you Calvinist?
LOL, Angelica. We “take” the oil from the Middle East? If only. Those poor middle eastern oil magnates, living in such poverty!
There has never been a doubt that God loves everyone.
The real question is: did Bin Ladin love God, and keep his Commandments?
We send ourselves to Hell.
This is moving but only partially true. God loves all people, but not equally. God loved David. Jesus loved John, the Beloved Disciple. God loves differently, yet completely and sufficiently. I believe he had to love OBL less than JPII for example.
This teaching is hard. Who can accept it?
Mark Duch, of course it is. It’s why it takes a lifetime to learn it.
Len:
I wonder why you think it would be necessarily true that God loves JPII more than Bin Laden…. Isn’t love, by definition, unconditional?
God loves the soul in as much as each one resembles Christ. We were unloveable but Jesus made us loveable in His fathers eyes.
I think it is possible to both understand that God loved OBL same as He loves us and to still feel relief that OBL is no longer able to wreak his havoc on innocent victims. I feel comfortable with it, anyway. We do have a God-given responsibility in this world to prevent evil - whether as the hands of Christ, as Catholic theology teaches us, or as Tikkun Olam (literally, repairing the world) as Judaism instructs. It’s a simple matter of hating the sin and not the sinner, right?
suburbancorrespondent:
It is simple in formula. But difficult to do.
You know what? That does it.
Tax the church!
There is no way for any human to know what God is thinking. That is why we are human and God is God.
The Good Lord will judge Bin Laden righteously and mercifully.
Bin Laden is either with his 72 virgins or with 72 Virginians now.
“I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father
except through me” (John 14:6)
“Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved”
(Romans 10:9-10)
“For it is by Grace you have been saved, through Faith-and this is
not from yourselves, it is a gift of God—not by works, so that
no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Yes, it’s true that God loves all people, as well as Osama bin Laden; but it does not follow that all people will return that love. That is what freewill is all about: people can reject God’s love. And also, what is one to do about someone who is IRRATIONAL and bent on killing people? Should we try to reason with them over tea to convince them to stop killing? Was Osama rational when he planned an attack that killed 3,000 innocent people (planning presupposes reasoning capacity)? Is the leader of Iran being rational when he wants to wipe Israel off the map? We Catholics have to realize that reality is complex and be careful not to oversimplify it.
And the reason people were happy after Osama’s death is that justice has been done; and his death brought about justice (and if Osama ends up in purgatory, we’re actually doing him a favor in a spiritual sense by his death making up for his public sins to a certain extent!). No sane person rejoices over any person’s death in itself. With Jesus’ death, the Pharisees most likely thought they had done true justice because they believed that Jesus was a blasphemer, by him claiming to be God. Jesus’ death was the gravest injustice in human history because he was absolutely innocent and told the Truth. Osama, on the other hand, was (and I say this using my human intuition) clearly guilty. Punishment for his crimes has to happen at some point, either in this life or in the next. Rejoicing over justice is a good thing, not a bad one.
Thanks Patrick G. for articulating something I’ve felt, but have had a hard time articulating myself.
Thank you, J. Fulwiler, for a truly Catholic perspective. Some of the responses are astonishing, but most are sad. How strange it is that the Lord’s unbounded love is so controversial- even among those who profess their belief in it. How unfortunate that so many look to sacred scripture and theological texts only to justify their own chosen positions, rather than studying them for the glory of God the Father of all people- to know Him, love Him, and serve Him more fully.
May the Lord have mercy on all of us sinners- and spare each of us from His Justice on the Day of Judgement.
Zeitgeist, watch it.
How can I be sure that God loves JPII more than OBL? The Church made JPII a blessed. We can believe that he is in heaven and we can pray to him for intercession. This is our faith. For OBL, all we knowis that he is an apparently unrepentant murderer of innocents. Why would God love him the same as those who have heroically loved God?
This conversation hinges on whether or not you believe God is free to act in a way that is both just and merciful. He would then respond to our love with greater love.
Len:
Perhaps it’s not so much that God responds to love with greater love as that we receive more of His eternal, unchanging love as we love Him the more.
From our perspective, this would appear as though God is loving us more, much as the sun would appear to shine brighter as we wipe the dirt off a window (to use an image from St. John Fisher). But it’s not God Who is changing, it’s us.
He is not “changing”. He is ACTING.
Len,
The same Church that beatified JPII also teaches and has always taught that God’s love precedes our response…God loved and loves us always, regardless of our response. We are the ones who turn away from Him and cast ourselves into Hell. God does not love us more because we are “good” or because we love Him back. It is we ourselves who suffer and destroy ourselves when we choose to separate ourselves from His love. Christ died for bin Laden…that is our Church’s teaching. Always has been.
Agreed. We are no agreeing however on whether the Church teaches that God loves all equally. I believe the Church teaches that He loves all sufficiently, not equally. If I had a minute more, I’d look up a CCC reference. Perhaps you could look or I can later if not.
It is presumptuous to assume that God “loves one person as much as another”, and that He is somehow wanting to forgive every person who commits heinous acts. Such a presumption is not supported by revealed Scripture.
There is a difference between God’s providential care for His creation (His providing of the processes which sustain a world where people can live natural lifespans) and God’s covenantal love towards those persons who are given the ability to reflect His attributes. It’s difficult to assert that God loved the Biblical King Ahab in the same way that he loved the prophet Elijah. It would be hard to assert that He loved Judas the same way He loved Peter. It would be hard to assert that God loved Jack the Ripper equally and similarly to a man like Charles Spurgeon. Or that He loved Ted Bundy the same as Francis Shaeffer. While God does provide for the physical needs of all His creation in a basic sense, God does not seem to bestow to all persons the same attributes of mercy, compassion, and love for fellow-man—-even though He knows that persons who lack these attributes are much more likely to self-destruct.
The claim “God loves everybody equally” is merely a feel-good claim which is completely unsupported in any of the major Scripture texts (The Jewish Tanakh, The Christian Bible, the Quran, and Vedas and Upanishads, etc.) It is a claim to be expected in a democratic, egalitarian society; but a claim for which there is little empirical evidence. It would be best to say that God loves His creation according to the dictates of His own will, and not according to some humanly imposed mandate for equality of result.
Fail!
It is not the teaching of the Church that Christ died to convert the antichrist and his minions.
Furthermore, not only is “god loves everyone equally” a “feel good claim” it completely contradicts Sacred Scripture. There were eleven Apostles but only one is referred to as the one whom Christ loved.
He referred to numerous characters he came across as sons of the devil, evildoers, dogs. One pack he gives explicit and clear instructions that we are not to give precious pearls to ‘swine’. Yet, here I read the silliness of laying the kingdom of God at the feet of one of the worst evildoers in 4000 years of our JudeoChristian history.
Use your brains!
This is not “truth”; it is opinion. God gave us minds to think and make free-will decisions. We need to understand what God wants us to do with our lives and confront evil wherever we see it. We have the right to kill in self-defense and this is self-defense on a national level. Christianity does not require us to put our heads in the sand.
It is my opinion that God recognizes who is good and who is evil….and it is nonsense for someone to tell me God loves evil too. Osama is personified evil. Scripture quoting does not settle this issue. C’mon.
There is a Midrash concerning the Jews crossing the Red Sea. As Pharoh’s army was approaching, and the sea fell upon them, the Angels rejoiced. When asked, The Almighty said, ‘Why rejoice when my children have died’. These are the people (Egyptians) than enslaved and tortured the chosen people for 400 years. We’ve only had to deal with Osama and his fantatic Islamic group for 10 years. My heart’s desire is that he is rotting in hell, but if God can forgive him for his actions, how much more worthy am I of eternal life?
Yes, a very hard lesson in-deed.
Remember that we call ourselves Christians, not “Godians”. Christ’s teachings are undeniable. “God” said so many things that one can construct almost any morality and justification. What Christ said makes so much sense to me at the age of 60. The path to God (and heaven) is through Christ.
Tom K. said “Perhaps it’s not so much that God responds to love with greater love as that we receive more of His eternal, unchanging love as we love Him the more.
From our perspective, this would appear as though God is loving us more, much as the sun would appear to shine brighter as we wipe the dirt off a window (to use an image from St. John Fisher). But it’s not God Who is changing, it’s us.”
And I absolutely second this. It seems that some are confusing a person’s action with the person himself. Scott tried to argue that “God doesn’t love evil”, and that was not the point. God loves all souls. Whether or not we choose to return that love and be open to the grace that comes with it, well that one is up to us. But as I have always been taught, God rejoices when his lost lamb is found. I can hope that God loves Osama’s soul (apart from his actions), same as he loves my soul, even if I sin daily. As Simcha said, “all sin is disgusting”.
One thing that I have noticed is that some of the people I know who believe (rightfully) that the attack on the twin towers was heinous and wrong from every angle, also contend that the US bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified, since the civilian men, women, infants, elderly, that were incinerated there were actually “combatants”. From the rhetoric, it seems that al Quaeda views all Americans as “combatants,” in a great global war. But we all agree that attacks on civilians are heinous…except when our country does it, and then we disagree.
Lauren, you are taking the phrase from simcha and making the son of the devil out to be someone who is living a life pursuing Grace through the sacraments and falling to sin. There is not love, there is enmity between the seed from the woman and the seed from the devil. The matter is settled in Scripture. Enmity. Not love.
Joseph D’Hippolito:
When you pray for others, it seems God can change your heart so much that in time you no longer feel hate for anyone, no matter what they have done. Even if you started out angry and hating them, you begin to change. The more we pray for the Muslims (from the heart), the sadder we will be to see any of them lost. If that’s not God acting, what is? Of my own accord I cannot stop hating. If God makes us less hateful, that is because he is making us more like himself. Then you see that sin hurts the sinner more than it hurts anybody else, and in the end it makes you sad. Anybody who has ever had to forgive the unforgivable knows what I am describing.
Elizabeth,
Hatred is something that is different from enmity. Hatred is an emotional reaction conjured up from the seeds of malice, bitterness.
The context is about the paradigm of salvation which is the separation of good from evil. A separation. A division. We are divided and God wishes us to divide, as He will divide and does divide.
God instills enmity to separate us from the evil, as He separates Himself from the evil.
A soul that chooses to reject and repent of sin and embrace grace - irrespective of whether that person falls to sin, dusts himself off and continues a life of rejecting and repenting - is a child belonging to God.
Osama is not in this category as Jennifer (and others) are attempting to contort him to be.
This is not about who commits acts of war. Acts of war, though innocent dies, can be done on behalf of God.
Joan of Arc and Osama Bin Laden are exact opposites. Those who try to make both evil are lacking the grace to see the spiritual world. They see things with human eyes.
Osama spent his life on a pursuit to kill Christ. This is, literally, the proforma of the serpent. The proforma of the serpent in Scripture who chases Christ to destroy him and his followers. It is the antichrist.
The antichrist will be back as soon as he finds another host. He prowls. God does not love him. He did not die to convert the antichrist as this is impossible. The antichrist is the opposing force of God.
People who conflate the two are the village idiots in the world of theology. They mean well, but they are loving and praying for the devil.
Riley:
If that asshole asked God to forgive him, God forgave him.
Bonkers? Sure. That’s why St. Catherine of Siena addressed Jesus with the words, “O mad lover!”
p.s.
Those who tell us that God instructs us to love our enemies are absolutely right but this does not apply to the enemy of God, the ancient serpent. People will (as this article tries to do) put a mask on the devil to evoke empathy and love for the devil.
Scratch the surface.
Christ Himself made it perfectly clear that he excluded those who reject Him. That He is only interested in saving what belongs to Him. At the time he walked the earth, that group of people were the Gentiles. He did not come to save us “all” as we “all” do not belong to Him. We choose somewhere along the way. Pick up the Bible and read the many things He said about the Gentiles.
Many times in our lives we walk in a gray area. The battle for the salvation of souls takes place in the gray area. Those robed in white are trying to persuade the gray. See what is happening. Don’t look with your eyes.
Pick up the Bible folks and read the book of revelation. Assign Osama to the character that he is because sooner rather than later, he will be back.
On the Feast of Divine Mercy, when our beloved Pope John Paul II was beatified, for the sake of His sorrowful passion, mercy was granted to the whole world. You can rejoice in that act of mercy. It was a mangificent gift that is being trampled with tripe from the foolish and naive.
God Bless!
Carol, as difficult as it may be, you make a judgement that is only God’s to make. Church teaching says that we cannot say who has been eternally damned. If Osama grew up in my loving stable Catholic household, would he have grown up to commit the crimes he did? We cannot judge. That is up to God.
Riley, there’s a reason why everyone’s ignoring you.
God (the metaphor) only knows what crazy man wrote Revelations in response to overwhelming persecution of early Christians. In addition, the Old Testament is an historical record of the origins and the history of the Tribes. Full Stop.
Again, Christ the elegant mathematician reduced our divinity to a very simple equation.
Don’t hate EVER is a good starting point. Try and LOVE.
Being a Chrsitian is the MOST DIFFICULT of religions to adhere to….and I don’t think many of us measure up (including me)
Brave column.
Carol,
How do you even know Osama bin Laden even heard the Gospel in any credible way? I’m not trying to justify him or his actions. I just agree that you are making a judgement that only God can make. Our government said he was armed when they shot him. Now they say he wasn’t. We don’t even know that for sure, so how can we know the state of his soul at his final judgement? It sounds from your reference to the Divine Mercy that you are Catholic, but actually, unless I misunderstand my Catholic faith completely, the love of God extends to all. That means God loves bin Laden..and sought his salvation until the very end…
p.s. by this logic, Carol, it seems anyone could get around the command to “love thy enemies” by simply declaring their enemies to be Satan. Some of our enemies might be good people that have simply done us wrong, but many of them are pretty rotten.
Elizabeth,
You can’t tell the difference between somebody who cuts you off and gives you the finger from someone you never met, with whom you have no personal relationship who calls a holy war upon Christians .A man who murdered millions for not bowing to Allah is the same thing to you as somebody who personally insults you. I hope this is a straw man and not something that
Is fatally wrong with your logic.
Who said anything about someone cutting me off and giving me the finger? To me that is more of an annoyance than an enemy. I never said anything about that. But how is bin Laden different than St. Paul before his conversion? I imagine St. Paul looked a lot like the antiChrist as he went about ‘breathing murder’ against the Christians. Those early Christians sure must have thought he looked like the antiChrist, don’t you think?
Elizabeth,
The story about cutting you off and giving you the finger was a silly example to try to explain the difference between a personal experience of yours and someone who you have never had a personal experience with but has a history of hating Christians and Christ.Bin Laden is not your personal enemy. He was an enemy of Christ. He was pursuing us to kill us.
Bin Laden is not the same as St. Paul. St. Paul had a conversion and that conversion is well documented and recorded. He gave his life for Christ. Had he turned his malice for Christ and Christians into a life dedicating to killing us - then Bin Laden and St. Paul would be from the same mold.
What a silly waste of brain cells.
If by “silly waste of brain cells”, you mean, charity, hope, and leaving judgment to the only one with the power to do so, then yes.
Elisabeth, I thought the St. Paul analogy was a great one. Also, the thief on the cross.
There were two thieves on the cross. Only one of them was saved. The other, Christ ignored.
Making a judgment that it is bad theology to offer hope that living a life of murdering Christians and Christ - unrepentant - will be privy to the love and salvation of Christ—that is part of a righteous Catholic’s baptismal call.
Yes it is true that God loves every human equally. But every human comes burdened with his own destiny, which he is forced to live out. We should not harbor hatred against wrong doers. As the legend goes, when Ceaser asked Antony what he would do if a tiger attacked him, Mark antory calmly replied, ‘I will kill it to save myself, without hatred or malice’.Similarly, Similarly it is our duty to take remedial measures so minimum harm may come to mankind, but still love him no less for that.
Refer comment posted by Bruce Harvey, if God loves everyone equally, and human destiny is responsible for their actions, not humans themselves, then what about the concept of Heaven and Hell. This concept was made so humans take control of their actions and do good universally
There is a very wide spectrum between God loving ‘every human equally’ mortals ‘harboring hatred’.
The battle between Christ and His followers and the antichrist and his followers is something that is too frightening for people to think about.
We are discussing the theology of salvation, not people’s sappy emotions about a man who carried out the role of persecuting God and killed his followers right in front of their eyes.
Christian love does extend to love the enemy of God because you are loving the devil.
There is nothing that can change the following:
Only one Apostle out of twelve is referred to as the one Christ loved.
There were two thieves on their crosses beside Christ. One acknowledged Christ’s Divinity and asked for acceptance. The other persecuted him until the end. Only one was told he would be with Christ in Paradise.
Adam is the antithesis of Christ.
Eve is the antithesis of Mary.
Bin Laden is the antithesis of St. Paul.
There are two forces in the battle for souls. One is good and the other is evil and each force has an army. Bin Laden headed the one in the book of revelation that is chasing Christ and his followers to kill them. The Pope is heading the other one.
This battle is not the same thing as the people who love God but struggle with sin.
You seem to be misunderstanding my point, and this argument is getting circular. So this will be my last post. To attempt to clarify, I am not saying God’s love = God’s salvation. God can still love someone and judge them according to their actions. My point, and what others are saying, is that forgiveness is always readily available, if one repents. And you don’t know if Bin Laden repented. Therefore, leave the judging to God.
Lauren, I’m not missing your point at all. Every Christian knows that God’s love is always available.
I certainly agree that we are to leave the judging to God. But that’s not what you and others are doing.
As it is, you are out here judging Bin Laden out to be your poster boy for salvation. You’re judging Bin Laden to a regular St. Paul. Judging Bin Laden to be the good thief on the cross. Judging Mother Teresa and Bin Laden to be the equitable recipients of God’s love.
You are making the judgments. All we are doing is pointing out that God’s judgments are written in Scripture and any lucid person who is familiar with It, can see they don’t match yours.
Cheers!
Joseph,
Bin Laden is about as likely to reject the kohran and pledge allegiance to what they consider to be an infidel God as we would reject Christ and the Gospels and cry out for the kohran and allah.
The entire premise they are trying to draw their conclusion upon is ludicrous.
They have found that Bin Laden’s computer that he was plotting an anniversary massacre on September 11th of this year. What mortal with both oars in the water would or could see a repentant St. Paul?
Christ forbade his Apostles from teaching the Gentiles whom He did not come to save by telling them not to give what is Holy to the dogs. Christ Himself barred the Gentiles as a race from the Kingdom of Heaven. Except of course, those who expressed their belief and loyalty to the real God.
Giddy emotions, an inability to see and understand the spiritual revelations of Sacred Scripture (much less apply them) in the events that are unraveling, is intellectually lethal.
has anyone forgotton hate blinds men to the truth we are suppose to be preaching the great commission how does hating this man help us with that?
Why do you have to burden righteousness as hatred?
The fact that living a life plotting the murder of Christ and his followers separates you from God and excludes you from salvation is Divine who is not capable of hatred.
There are two thousand years worth of witnesses about conversion and salvation of hardened sinners. Bin Laden is not among those stories so leave his murdering and lying to be judged by God and use the documented witnesses to amplify to the world the loving salvation of God. Bin Laden is not a candidate for this kind of preaching.
Love the sinner. Hate the sin. I remember hearing a story or watching a movie about when the Nazi’ were going around killing Jews. I don’t remember everything but I do remember somehow the Nazi group arrived at the home of an old Jewish couple. The husband was downstairs in their house and talking to the I guess Colonel that wiped out an entire village. The wife’ family lived in that village and were all killed. The husband called his wife downstairs to meet the murderer of her family. She came down and he introduced the Nazi to his wife as the man that killed her entire family. She embraced him and told him she forgives him.I would pray that the Obama administration stops releasing anymore intelligence on our interrogation methods and how our Intel. Community and Seals operate. Its endangering the lives of many people.
Yes, God loves Bin Laden—He’s sad that one of His children was a mass murderer claiming to kill in His name. But let us not forget: what Bin Laden did has contributed to the view that belief in God is evil (as shown in several of the comments). Jesus said that it is better for anyone who turns people away from God to have a millstone tied to their neck and be tossed into the sea (Matthew 18:6). Therefore to be happy that Bin Laden is dead is perfectly consistent with Jesus’s teachings.
It’s going to take me a lifetime to accept this view of God’s love and justice. I understand, as Dante put it in Paradiso, Canto 20 I think, that man understands divine justice as the eye does the see. Close to shore you can see the ocean floor, but in the deep the floor is hidden. If God loves bin Laden, then he does that at the deepest part of the ocean. I just don’t see Him doing it.
I do see God loving the Navy Seals MORE, much more than OBL. I see him loving Mary more than other people who came before her and after her. I see Jesus loving John more than other followers. I see Our Father loving Noah more than all others at his time. I see Yahweh loving Moses more than Pharoah. God may be saddened that one of his creatures rejected Logos and turned to evil, saddened yes, love OBL.. nope!
Sadly, that’s what you’d think from reading this tripe. Speculation about the last minute conversion one of the most monstrous enemies of Christianity and Christ - I can’t think of a bigger scandal.
Thank you so much Mrs. Fulwiler for using Miss/Mrs. Drusilla’s comments about God’s love for each and everyone of us. It is so sad that many of the posts have missed your point completely. God’s love/hate don’t even come close to “our” versions and we will never really know it completely until we face Him at the very moment that we take our last breath. God HATES divorce, but what do many Catholics do? God never sends anyone to Hell, they go there on their own as they cannot stand to be near PURE LOVE. Don’t forget that each and everyone of you has to love me as God loves me. Hey! I don’t make the rules, God does. Have mercy on us Jesus and open our eyes and melt our cold hearts to love each other as You tell us to do. Amen. +JMJ+
The CCC says that there never has been, never will be any human being for whom Jesus did not die. You can’t have more love than that…there’s nothing greater than *infinite*. Of course God loves him. It takes God’s grace to even begin to fathom it. Those who struggle with the idea…I include myself…should stop trying to write their own catechism and spend some more time on their knees. If we truly shared the heart of Christ, we would weep, not rejoice, to see any sinner lost.
Carol,
You seem to misinterpret people’s comments quite a bit. You must get into a lot of arguments.
Betty,
LOL.
Actually Betty, you and others are actually misinterpreting my comments.
Nobody is weeping over the loss of a sinner or denying that God has placed the chance of salvation before every soul.
What is happening here is some Catholics are using one of the most evil men in the history of humanity, whose mission in life was to kill Christ and His followers, whose deposit of resources proves he was plotting to return to America on September 11, 2011 to murder as many of us as he could, to fabricate a Christ who does not separate evil from the holy, a Christ who does not call the people He ‘loves’ dogs who are not to be given what is holy, a Christ who does not forbid His descendants from giving pearls to the ‘swine’.
“It’s completely counter-intuitive to our fallen human nature, which sees love as something that is earned, something finite and fluctuating, something that can be permanently lost with enough bad behavior. But it’s true”
Althought that is so, it’s not a reason not to kill OBL. If it had been, fighting the Nazis would have been sinful. The problem is that if invaders & terrorists, and criminals, are not opposed, they will walk all over us, and kill & hurt to their hearts’ content. Is it Christioan to let others be blown up, massacred, killed, raped, enslaved, tortured, & so forth, because we don’t want to be “unloving” to those who mean to harm us ? It may mean we don’t harm them - but not resisting them exposes others to harm.
Obama was absolutely right to have OBL killed - he had had to be stopped. Jesus, after all, did not live in a world of international terrorism. But we, and those we love, do. If loving someone means killing them so as to prevent their comitting further crimes, then so be it. Those who killed OBL deserve nothing but praise.
There are 3000 people who died on September 11th in New York and PA who were never given their opportunity for conversion.
In fact, if Osama had one claim to fame, it was killing tens of thousands of souls before they had their opportunity for conversion.
He was coming back to kill more on September 11th of this year to kill thousands more Americans who will not have their opportunity for conversion.
Yet, there are people who would deny thousands, tens of thousands their opportunity under the delusion that some day Osama could actually have turned into St. Paul.
It’s as Uncle Screwtape as it gets.
Carol,
It seems to me that your attitude comes out in your tone and manner of writing. I have read what all the people here has written and nobody has said any of the things you said that they do. It seems to me that you are rankling at the fact that some people think that God’s mercy is universal. I am well familiar with each of the Scripture texts that you are quoting and misquoting, but not one of them justifies a vengeful attitude, which is what you seem to be justifying. Not a single person has said that Osama should not have been stopped. You seem to simply be angry that any person refuses to condemn him to hell as you do. It is one thing to take action to stop someone who murders or commits crimes. It is quite another thing to condemn them to hell. The first we have a right to do. The second we don’t. That’s all anyone is saying. You seem to have a problem with that. There’s nothing Screwtape about what people are saying about it. How is anyone being led into sin by refusing to judge the state of another person’s soul? Can you explain how that is sinful?
Can you show something, anything whatsoever, even a glimmer, in the teachings of the Catholic faith that says that Osama bin Laden COULD NOT ever have become a “St. Paul?” I challenge you.
manticore:
Unless I missed it completely, not one person has said Osama bin Laden should not have been stopped.
Catholic teaching does in fact say that we are only to use as much force as is necessary and not more. It is a valid question whether it is morally correct to kill a man If he could be captured and imprisoned instead. But actually, nobody is even suggesting that. Everyone here is agreeing that he should have been stopped.
I would argue that Jesus did live in a time of international terrorism. In fact, crucifixion by the Roman army aligns with most commonly accepted definitions of “terrorism”. Crucifixions were not only executions, but public spectacles, used not just to punish criminals but terrorize anyone who might stand up to the Roman invaders. The torment of a crucified person was unimaginable. Why was Jesus able to say “Father forgive them” and we aren’t?
Betty,
Here I am thinking I am being too direct but there still seems to be a communication problem!
I’ll take another crack at it.
I am not condemning a man to hell,I am discussing the Matrix of the theology of salvation to people who are contorting it.
You, Bette, can petition the Father to forgive people who have hurt you. Whether Bin Laden ‘could have’ become a St. Paul is conjecture. There is not a single fact of record that indicates that at the time of death, he was remorseful. You are not Jesus so you have no horse in the Bin Laden race.
Conjuring up suppositions about one of the most heinous individuals who ever lived to imply how he lived his life may be worthy of Paradise is scandalous and a disservice to Our Lord.
responsible Catholics have to let Jesus be Jesus. You be Bette, Bette!
I am rejoicing in God’s Merciful hand in stopping Osama from similar events that sent 3000 people to their day of judgment without the opportunity for conversion. You are the person ‘judging’ this this magnificent gift of God as some form of human ‘vengeance’ because you are unable to see the bigger picture.
Dear Carol,
Well, I am very relieved that I misunderstood you and you are not for insisting that bin Laden is in hell, which is what I thought you were saying.
Perhaps you feel that people were trying to paint bin Laden as a good person, and therefore were implying that no one should have tried to stop him, but I feel certain nobody was thinking that.
To rejoice, to be relieved, that future evil is prevented here on earth is one thing. That is good. But to rejoice that someone went to Hell is totally different. Now the impression you gave was the second. I think several people were trying to challenge you on that, by pointing out the humanity of bin Laden, that just like St. Paul he was a human being with the capacity for both good and evil. Even his most heinous deeds do not turn him from one type of being into another. He still remains a human, with human dignity. That was the point, not conjecture about a deathbed conversion. We can love bin Laden with the love of God, impossible for human beings and only possible through the Holy Spirit, and still want him to be stopped, including by force…as much force as is necessary, and not more.
I also read that you wrote that it is not the teaching of the Church that Jesus died to convert the antichrist and his minions. If you are referring to human beings when you say that, then the Church does teach that He died for them, without any exclusion whatsoever. If by antichrist you mean angels, that is a different story, because Christ became incarnate as a human being…He did not become an angel. His death on the Cross was for the human race. How his death relates to angels I am not so sure.
The question that we all ask (or want to ask) is: As Christians, could we (or our sanctioned proxy) kill Bin Laden? Muslims wouldn’t have a problem killing us, I am told.
Our achilles heel and our salvation come out of this answer I think.
We’re not there yet!
I absolutely believe that Bin Laden is in hell. I believe his father was the devil. This is different than condeming his soul to hell which is reserved for God which is what you are mistakenly perceiving I am saying.
Christ did not die for the devil and his seed. Christ places emnity between the devil and his seed and Christ and His seed. He does not places love. He in fact has created the soul to fog the brain when you have rejected Him so that the teachings of the Church leave your intellect numb. When the apostles asked Him why a certain crowd could not hear them, He said they could not because they are perishing. He followed up by saying we do not give what is holy to the dogs, which is what you are trying to do with your ambiguity about whether Bin Laden’s life left us any hope that he was saved. From the facts are record, he did not.
Christ came to divide. At some point you cross the rubicon and become a child of the devil, the antichrist. The Church absolutely teaches that Christ’s death offers salvation to all but you are free to reject it, which Bin Laden most certainly did. There is zero evidence to the contrary. Therefore, drawing the lucid conclusion about where a life he lived led him is consistent with Church teaching.
There are angelic forced and demonic forces. This is what you profess every week when you go to Mass and say the creed. You believe in the invisible. The demonic are fallen angels. Angels can and do fall. Fallen angels have zero opportunities to repent and be ‘saved’. Fallen angels are toast. They are excluded. Exiled.
Adam and Eve were exiled. Souls are exiled. They wasted their opportunity to be saved. They are no longer saved. Christ’s death did not save them.
Bin Laden may have had a dirty bomb. When they told him to freeze and he didn’t, killing him as they did was the appropriate amount of force. The fact that you are questioning this after all he did in his life is beneath contempt as far as I am concerned.
God Bless!
Dear Carol,
Are you a Catholic?
I have read what you wrote and I respect your right to have your own opinion, but I hope you will have the humility to realize that you have veered from the teachings of the Church quite a bit on several important points. Many of the ideas you list were proposed by people throughout the ages and were eventually discarded- or condemned by the Church as heretical.
One point alone suffices: You say that Jesus did not die for bin Laden. Ask any Catholic bishop, Catholic professor of theology, or simply pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it there for yourself. Christ died for every single human person, without exception. Without exception. Jesus died on the cross for Osama bin Laden.
I am sorry you think that my position is beneath contempt but yet my position is based on the Catholic Church.
I didn’t say that you condemned bin Laden to hell. I say you WANT him to be in hell. Your rejoice in it. That, to me, is a very dangerous place for your heart to be.
And on this issue, at least, you have decided to put your own opinion above the 2000-year-old teaching of the Church that Christ established. If you do not think I am correct, copy everything you have written and mail it to someone who can accurately evaluate it based on the magisterium of the Church, such as a priest or bishop who is respected for his orthodoxy, and wait for a judgement on it. Otherwise I am afraid you will continue as you are, in error.
Carol, I won’t write anymore because I cannot say any more about it than what the Church has already said. I submit my judgement to the Church that Christ established. Otherwise we are just two flawed, sinful people arguing back and forth out of our own personal opinions and interpretations. That would never end.
You are right, Dave. Our Achille’s heel and salvation come out of this question. Jesus offered no resistance to those who killed him, and in the Scriptures he tells his followers to do the same. He says “Offer no resistance to the one who is evil.”
He was either crazy or he was not…..anyone who is a Christian has to seriously consider this issue….what He meant, what we are to do.
Jesus said offer no resistance to the one who is evil?
This I’ve got to see!
What’s the citation?
How about this one: James 4:7 - resist the devil and he will flee
Why then did He resist the devil who offered Him bread?
Why do you think our Lord inspired great Saints to lead an army? Those who killed and led others to kill are Catholic Saints?
St. Joan of Arc, for instance.
You can’t say you submit to the teachings of the Church if your logic and reasoning contradict Scripture and the Catechism.
Betty, I know the Catechism quite well, backwards and forwards. Your opinion does not comport with Church teaching, Christ, His Church and the Catholic religion.
I will say it again - Christ died to offer every soul salvation.
I don’t mean to be unkind, but do you know the difference between an offer and the acceptance that completes the transaction?
If you reject the offer as Bin Laden clearly and publicly did, you are both separated from God and your salvation. He was sent to save the contrite. Bin Laden was plotting to kill us. There was no remorse. No grace to move him to repent. Any conjecture to the contrary is absurd.
The last people on earth to ask about theology and salvation is ‘any American Bishop”. Most of them are perishing. They’ve driven their cars off the cliff. Pray for their conversions and their souls.
The understanding that Christ died for ‘all’ is an error. To correct that error, the New Roman Missal to be released during Advent of this year will have a vital change in it to help put the crackpot theology out of it’s misery.
Here’s what is said now:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
Here’s the Eucharistic prayer that is theologically correct:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
I know you mean well, but you do not know your religion. Sadly, there is a multitude of you.
You have been robbed.
Here are some helpful hints:
Avoid the Jesuits.
Turn on EWTN.
Read everything you can get your hands on that was written Archbishop Fulton Sheen and Pope John Paul II, Fr. John Hardon.
God Bless
oops - somehow I copied and pasted wrong. Mea culpa.
Let me try again!
Here’s what we say now:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT,
IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN.
And of course, here are the key changes that correct the theological error:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
Peace.
MATTHEW 5:38-42
Catechism of the Catholic Church 605
Matthew 5:38 is about personal revenge when somebody takes your personal possessions. It does not apply to resisting the devil who is robbing people of their salvation.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not outlaw killing in self defense. Nor does it outlaw war.
Your conclusions don’t make any sense Betty. If they did, St. Joan of Arc wouldn’t be a Saint.
Let me explain something to you about the use of the right amount of force in protecting more victims and our country from the Bin Laden.
It would have been absolutely consistent with Church teaching to, by surprise, drop just the right amount of bombs on the entire compound until we were certain the inhabitants were dead. The fact that six brave soldiers put their lives on the line to give Bin Laden the chance to surrender in peace was above and beyond the call of duty. He gave up his chance by resisting the call to put his hands in the air and surrender peacefully.
For you to suggest you speak with the authority of Christ’s Church when you imply that what they did was somehow sinful is patently ridiculous. Not to mention false.
You haven’t the vaguest idea how to apply Scripture and Church teaching. So, if I were you, I’d be shutting my pie hole and spending a couple of years with some good books on theology in front of the Eucharist in a state of Grace. Many of us have been where you are and although I speak with confidence, I speak out of love for your soul and Christ’s Church.
Six men and their families had the right to life, their full lives. Their wives and children had the right to have their husbands and fathers come home - some of them may not yet be converted. I won’t sit silent as you mock their bravery to give Bin Laden a chance to do the right thing in the Holy Name of Christ’s Church.
It’s not my job to convince you Betty. I am simply a messenger. I have no attachments to whether you accept it or reject it. Continue on with your infatuation of the devil if you must. Just be prepared for those of us who are zealous about every drop of Christ’s Blood and salvation to straighten the crooked paths.
Cheers
ccc 605 -
Let me see if I can be more succinct.
Betty: Christ died to save Bin Laden.
Carol: Christ died to offer every soul salvation but some like Bin Laden spend their lives rejecting it. Those people, like Christ said the gentiles were, are outside of that salvific offering.
Here are your instructions Betty - and they are clear:
Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
12
“Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.
13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 8
14
Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city 9 through its gates.
15
Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit.
16
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, 10 the bright morning star.”
17
The Spirit and the bride 11 say, “Come.” Let the hearer say, “Come.” Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.
18
I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19
and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.
http://ericsammons.com/blog/2009/10/26/rules-of-engagement-for-catholics-on-the-internet/
#4, #5, #7, #8, #9
I’m sorry for getting involved in this. I don’t think it is appropriate use.
Check out George Weigel at Crisis Magazine today.
Christ brings a soul recompense based upon the way we live our lives. Bin Laden’s malice for Christ and treachery was public. There was no evidence of conversion. If you understood Sanctifying Grace you would know that it is impossible to have the tools to gin up contrition. It simply doesn’t work that way. Drawing the conclusion about where that kind of a life leads you - into hell - is not against Church teaching. It is, in fact, the theology of Christ’s Church. The fact that we draw that conclusion does not send him to hell. That power is God’s and God’s alone.
Christ did not come to unify, He came with a sword. He divides and His Church divides. He divides what is filth and evil from what is holy and virtue. You are taking what was evil and trying to make it ambiguous.
What is amazing to me is that you then take what is virtue and good and make it sin. You can paint the six men who heroically entered Bin Laden’s bunker in hand-to-hand combat instead of shooting enough missiles from 100 miles away until everyone in the compound was most likely dead—which would most certainly pass the muster of Catholic teaching given the circumstances—as people who are out of a state of grace—and you start throwing internet etiquette around when people call you on your despicable and false assertions.
While God offers salvation to all, we have to accept that offer for the transaction to complete. Christ suffered for him but that suffering was thrown away. Christ’s death did not save Bin Laden. Period.
Christ loves all souls and He and it is painful for Him (and us)see a soul on the road to hell. He does not love all souls the same. When victims are released from the tyranny of evil, there is tremendous relief. We can rejoice that our prayers for that relief have been answered because lives and thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands of souls have the opportunity for conversion that 3000 people on September 11th did not.
We are to resist the devil. You never, under any circumstances surrender to the devil.
Giving up personal retaliation for a hurt does not define the theology of just war and killing to defend life for the sake of the common good Justice is perfectly acceptable to Christ and Christ’s Church. There are saints who did it. That is what tells you are misunderstanding Church teaching.
There are two forces - the Christ and the antichrist and we are at war for souls. There are angelic forces and demonic forces and each of them are tugging. Mortals may assist our brothers and sisters in the spiritual warfare.
I’m sorry your feelings and ego are hurt but your characterizations about Christ, Church teaching is spreading error and it is the duty of any informed Catholic to address those errors.
Leaving ambiguity when you are spreading errors is not doing you any favors. It is not doing readers any favors. More importantly, it is not doing Christ any favors. I know because I’ve been there and I can tell you that I owe my salvation to people who told me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong and why I was wrong. That is a debt I (and others who speak up) are trying to repay.
Some people will turn it into something sinister or uncharitable. That doesn’t make it reality.
God Bless you and yours.
Speculation such as being offered here is useless…and would seem to go against the command to “judge not so as ye be judged not”! for who has known the mind of God Whose ways are so far above our ways.
get for less to get new coupon
What? Since when does atheism mean “bad things happen?” What a disingenuous bit of wordplay.
Lying for Jesus.
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