What struck me most about the meme wasn’t the baby = drowning as much as it is that apparently swimming lessons aren’t an option.
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Setting the problems with the whole “baby = drowning” aside, this also highlights the difference between contraception and NFP. If contraception is lifejackets, then fertility education/NFP is swimming lessons. Learn how to enjoy the water naturally!
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And what this shows is that the culture of abortion and contraception is not only a culture of death, but it is a culture of limitation. It is a culture of powerlessness, it is a culture of dependence.
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Learning to swim is fun and empowering. When you know how to swim, you no longer fear the water, but you respect what it is and that yes, you can drown. There is no false sense of security provided by a floatation device when you have to keep your own head out of water.
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The same can be said about our sexuality. Which is why the Church does not just tolerate NFP, but actively promotes it.

NFP… it’s learning how to swim.

Another great article by Jennifer Fulwiler.

It’s disturbing, but my initial reaction was that it was referring to AID’s & other STD’s, not pregnancy.

It’s worse than misinformation they have lived with and worn their precious too many times and it has poisoned their minds.

Agree Jen, but to some degree the final lines of this meme, a take off on Todd Akin’s ridiculous comments, play into the hands of “culture of death” people. Pro-life people need to be as clever and sarcastic as this was to be heard in a marketplace which treasures that world-view and those skills. You also must be ready to criticize people like Todd Akin who have no idea what they are talking about.

Agree with your article. There’s always layers of onion to peel back when dealing with ‘opinions’ like these. Getting to the crux of the matter is helpful.
One other point, abstinence education will always be off-putting to some who basically reject the value of virtue and the hierarchy of happiness. Also, pro-lifers never, ever abandon the mother who is ‘accidentally’ pregnant. They jump to her rescue with clothing, housing, child care, and adoption options if she simply cannot raise the child. We never let her drown even if she had a ‘lapse of judgement’ as this poster suggests.

Waywardson I particularly like your comment “There is no false sense of security provided by a floatation device” because we almost lost a nephew this summer because the adult watching him relied on the flotation device to protect him.

The line that caught my attention: “you have to live with the consequences” is sarcastic and is such an ignorant concept.  I guess if I were to make an analogy (and I know it’s not great) it’s that in general people support the idea that drunk driving is bad and should be avoid in an effort to avoid the consequences.  Why can’t we apply the same concept to having sex.

The statement about drowning being a gift makes me think that they’re definitely referring to unplanned pregnancy.  Very disturbing analogy.

The thing that struck me about this meme is how they use a picture of an adorable young boy to grab your heart and win you over.  We don’t want our children to die, right, so we put on life jackets, but the life jacket stands for abortion, so we do want our children to die to save ourselves from them. . . . the thinking is so tangled up it gives me a headache!

Seriously uhm… why isn’t learning to SWIM an option?!?!

and to continue with the ridiculous analogy… I prefer learning to swim… and I prefer not swimming with folks who are there to just pull me under.

I also prefer a Lifegaurd to be there to rescue me if needed, tell me how to weather the storm, and to watch after my family (i.e. Holy Mother Church… our ‘Lifeguard’). :)

“It’s the product of decades of misinformation about human sexuality” Ah, now with that statement I have a problem: they’re most certainly NOT misinformed about human sexuality. They’re wrong about it, but they know ALL about it. Too much, perhaps.

When did those who choose to do evil stop being “God’s enemies” and instead become poor, sad, confused little people?

It’s not like these people have been kept in a closet for 100 years and fed Raisinettes so that their brains are deformed.  It’s not like they have been on an island for 100 years and have developed their own culture in a complete absence of the Judeo-Christian moral ethic.  No, these are people with whom we have debated, set forth our reasons, argued, and sometimes even screamed at in their obstinant love of evil.  They have all the facts, all the great teaching and moral reason of the Church, and THEY STILL INSIST UPON GIVING GOD THE FINGER!!!!

So tell me how these folks do not qualify as God’s enemies?  I think it is more than time someone start telling them point blank and to their faces that they are going to hell for a long, LONG time unless they repent.  When was the last time you heard a really good sermon on hell that made you squirm in the pew and head for Confession the next day? 

How about NEVER!!!

People like Nancy Pelosi need to hear this from the pulpit and from the laity.  We don’t want you to go Nancy, we don’t want you to suffer, but unless you repent, you are going to hell.  Argue with the Blessed Virgin Mary if you choose.  She is the one who said that more souls go to hell for the sins of the flesh than for any other sin. Argue with our Lord, Who warned us against the eternity of fire for those who choose wickedness.

Okay.  I’ve vented. Now someone please tell me why I am wrong when the Bible describes those who choose evil as God’s enemies and also describes a miserable eternity for them.

One other question also.  FOR GREATER GLORY was a tremendous hit here in the States.  In it, we were shown Catholics who decided that rather than roll over like tail dragging puppies and allow the government to kick them until they died, they were going to bite back.

Tell me why they were wrong.  I don’t think that American Catholics have the guts to do this sort of thing when the government agents start rounding us up in a few years.

Were they right or wrong, and why?

This is easy to shoot down:
1. Premarital sex is totally unnecessary and is inherently unhealthy; water activities, however, are an important way to keep fit and cool. Therefore, abstaining from water sports would be harmful, whereas abstaining from premarital sex has only positive effects.
2. Pregnancy isn’t analogous to drowning. It’s analogous to getting wet. If the government told children that life jackets prevent wetness in the rapids, and that they will all inevitably spend a huge amount of the summer in the rapids while in middle school, the government would be committing fraud.
3. Abortion is the exact opposite of an analogy for saving someone from drowning. Abortion kills. Saving someone from drowning saves a life. The two actions are precise opposites. A more apt analogy would be if someone were to push herself up to keep her head dry by pushing a child’s head down, drowning the child. If getting wet bothered her so much she was prepared to kill over it, then maybe in her case water sports are inappropriate.
4. No one is trying to ban contraceptives. Whoever came up with that Orwellian gibberish should come forward and explain himself. The issue is a) whether the schools should falsely teach that they are infallible and safe, and b) whether unwilling people should be forced to purchase them for others.
Fish in a barrel.

Jennifer,
I have been following you for years…originally hearing you on Sacred Heart Radio..GOD BLESS you for your simple yet profound articulation explaining why CONTRACEPTION is the cause of abortion and the culture of death!
I will continue to pray for you and your family, keep up the great work!  Talk about being created for a definite plan and a purpose, it is so obvious you are hands and feet of our Lord, thank you for your YES to Him!!
This article made me want to cry, you are so “dead” on when explaining this!

If this is really about STDs and not pregnancy (which I doubt), the analogy is a little better…but - who thinks that a lifejacket will save them in a hurricane or shark-infested water? And, as many others have pointed out, the use of a lifejacket is in no way a substitute for knowing how to swim.

“the final lines of this meme, a take off on Todd Akin’s ridiculous comments”
Everyone else has completely missed the point.
This is about the “legitimate rape” remarks by Todd Akin.
In the same way that he proposed that a woman would avoid pregnancy, this poster is proposing the crazy concept that a child will avoid drowning.
So the analogy is between contraception preventing conception and a life jacket preventing drowning.

The analogy is beyond lame.  The kid is really precious.

You said it well!

Thanks for your critical analysis of this image!  Thanks for speaking on behalf of LIFE!

This meme is about RAPE and a politicians horrible comments about if it’s a legitimate rape than your body will find a way to deal with it. Hence the “if it was a legitimate push” line. It was a terrible example of victim blaming and saying that women are responsible if they got raped because of how they dressed or if they were having sex they were sending a message that they wanted it.

I am appalled at this authors take on this. Appalled. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the prochoice stance or abortion. NOTHING.

The best part is the mixed message that emerges from the manipulative use of a child in the picture.  It plants a subtle and outrageously hypocritical message that pro-lifers are the ones who want children to die.  It is so ridiculous that it would be funny if this weren’t such a serious problem.

Abortion is not a life jacket; it is a straitjacket. Wear one if death by drowning seems like a good idea. Life jackets are designed to prevent death. Abortion is death.

Thank you IrishEddie!  Today we our sermon was about avoiding relativism.  I think maybe we’ve all been brainwashed into relativist thinking, and it’s very hard to wake up from the slumber.  Someone yesterday posted on Facebook that while they think abortion is wrong, they would never tell anyone else not to have one.  I agree with you that there’s no contingent of American Catholics that would stand up like the Cristeros did, but I do believe there are individuals who would be willing to be martyred.  Everyone else would just think they’re crazy.  My dad has the same complaint that you have.  Nothing is evil anymore.  And, as I’ve said, we’ve all been brainwashed into relativism… or at least too scared to open our mouths & say, “Hey! That’s wrong.”

Unlike the author I give this organization zero respect or credibility. There is absolutely no analogy to be made between the gift of life and the tragedy of a premature death. We like to forget that the purpose of sex is to bring life into the world, that’s why God made it pleasurable. The purpose of eating is to deliver nutrition to the body, we would like to eat without gaining weight but that is not reality. No, there was never suppose to be a thing as ‘casual sex’ or sex without responsibility.

Wow Jennifer, I find this article to be extremely intellectually dishonest, or biased and naive for the following reasons:

1) Comparing two things in an analogy does not equate them morally. For example, take this statement: “Just because our parents say being a democrat is the right thing to do, doesn’t make it necessarily so. Imagine if our parents told us that genocide was the right thing to do. That would not make it necessarily so.”

By Jennifer’s logic, we would have to react in righteous horror that someone would compare genocide with being a democrat.

Of course nothing in the graphic entails a claim that having a baby is equivalent to drowning. The graphic criticizes a specific line of reasoning that claims that if one acts in a way that has any risk of unintended consequences, these consequences must be accepted.

It’s plausible that the analogy is flawed, but Jennifer’s reading of this graphic as indicating a “death-obsessed” mentality is transparently biased- it paints a conveniently horrible picture of anyone who would disagree with Jennifer.

2) In another unwarranted leap, Jennifer uses this graphic as a representation of all people who are not pro-life, as if the sole existence of this graphic “proves” that all those who disagree with her position are mired in a “culture of death.” Of course there are a variety of kinds of pro-choicers and pro-choice arguments, just like there are a variety of pro-lifers and pro-life arguments.

Please Jennifer, don’t make such painfully bad extrapolations. It is an unfair and reprehensible straw man of those who disagree with you.

Sex without contraception can result in a birth (life);  water play without a life jacket can result in drowning (death).  They might both be unintended consequences, but the implications of these two consequences is very different.  Yes, pregnancy can be an undesirable consequence in some situations.  But it undesirable is not the same as death, and implying that prevention of an unintended pregnancy warrants the same level of protection as preventing a death is a perfect example of intellectual dishonesty.

@Jackelyn, if it was only about the rape comments, it would be an add-on comment at the end (Also, ...)

@Wrestling Enkidu, you have your own transparent biases and demonstration of naivete if you think this meme is not equating pregnancy to drowning.  Let’s replace “drowning” with “pregnancy”:

“They only encourage risky behavior.  The only 100% effective way to prevent pregnancy is total abstinence (from going in the water).  and if you do, by chance, find yourself struggling with pregnancy, then no life-saving or otherwise procedure or act should be allowed to be administered.  you got yourself into this mess, you have to live with the consequences.  YOU SHOULD SEE PREGNANCY AS A GIFT.”

Each of those sentences is either a common objection to contraception and abortion, or a caricature of objections.  Please start being intellectually honest.

You know, at first it seemed like the wrong message but cleverly presented, but it’s actually kind of lame.Some analogies work better than others.
I think these folks have a wee bit too much time on their hands.

(And writing about it in a Catholic blog is obviously troll-bait.)

I have a website here:

http://romancatholicascensionism.ning.com/

It is about achieving sanctity.  And yet, no one at Facebook has the slightest interest in it.  A crying shame, that no one wants to be a saint, but only wallow in the luxuries of this world.  What will I do with the tuition money?  I may be dying of tuberculosis so it won’t be for me but for the charities I give the money to.  If I could just see five good people on the network, I could die easy.  Are there five good men, Abraham?  Ten?  Twenty?  Or none…

The comparison is flawed.  Drowning is a death sentence.  Abortion is a death sentence, and the sentence is carried out against the innocent unborn child.

@d2: Your criticisms lack substance. It’s clear that the graphic is using commonly heard objections (or caricatures of objections) to abortion. I openly acknowledge that. All this establishes is that a comparison/parody is being made. It does not mean that abortion and drowning are being morally equated. My example (labeled under #1) clearly demonstrates this. One can say “Just because our parents say being a democrat is the right thing to do, doesn’t make it necessarily so” and similarly “Just because our parents say committing genocide is the right thing to do, doesn’t make it necessarily so.” This is comparison that does not morally equate the two things described, just like the graphic.

You know what else is flawed? The fact that Catholic church thinks they invented sex.

Sex is meant for so much more than the conceiving of a child. The problem with the idea of educating children in abstinence is then you do not educate them in any form of safe sex. Sex ed gives kids the information they need to ensure that they can take care of their bodies for reproduction and so that they are aware that abstinence doesn’t mean that you are safe from harmful effects of sex.

The image is an extreme but it isn’t talking for or against abortion and anyone with even a morsel of intelligence should be able to understand that what it is saying is that by teaching and promoting safe sex and contraception the need for abortion is eliminated.

Now a question, isn’t the sperm life then. I mean do all of you perfect souls out there when you have a wet dream does that mean you are killing all those babies or when you actually have sex and only the one sperm fertilizes the egg what about them that don’t. Or in your opinion of life it needs to be at least two cells instead of one?

Good catch, Mrs. Fulwiler.

Only in a land presided over by a death-worshipper does
baby = punishment,
life = death.

Typical lame and ignorant liberal response, Max.  Responses like yours are the reason I have absolutely ZERO respect for liberals. Nada. None. You have an absolute inability to reason.  Probably the result of that public school education you received.

The obvious answer is that a sperm is not a human life.  It is living, but it is not human until the moment the egg and sperm meet.  It is at that moment that a human being is conceived, and not one moment before.  You don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of biology and yet you want to come in here and get all antsy with us.

And sex is not meant for “so much more than conceiving a child.” Wrong again.  The primary function of sex is procreation.  The secondary function of sex is unity with the spouse, but that same unity and sense of being loved can be acheived without sex.  Too bad that you liberals can’t get your minds out of your pants all the time.  Are you telling me that an elderly husband who holds his wife’s hand,  caresses her brow, and in other ways tries to comfort her while she is sick is failing to express love because he can’t have sex with her?

Promotion of contraception and any sexuality outside the realm of marriage between one woman and one man for one lifetime is EVIL.  Those who do so are also EVIL!!  I make no apologies for saying this and it is beyond time our priests begin to say the same thing from their pulpits.  You have no concept of what sexuality is for, and the liberal bilge you read has obviously poisoned your mind.  I would suggest a good reading of Catholic materials from an apostolate that opposes contraception.  Perhaps there is hope you can still learn, if you haven’t sold out completely to the devil’s lies about sexuality and what it is for.

@Micha Elyi

You are appealing. When did it become okay to talk so badly of people, he is president deal with it. What happened to the whole christian view of being kind and helping others. I guess that only applies when they agree with your opinion.

“You know what else is flawed? The fact that (sic) Catholic church thinks they invented sex.”
—Max (3:48 PM)

Wrongo, dear Max.  Nowhere does the Church claim “they invented sex.”  Rather, the Bible the Church proclaims clearly shows that sex (first mentioned in Genesis, a book of the Old Testament) predates the Church (first mentioned in the New Testament).

“Now a question, isn’t the sperm life then. (sic)”

Sperm isn’t a human life.  It’s only tissue, specifically gametes.

Hint: Whatever you learned from Monty Python, it isn’t science.

When did it become okay to talk so badly of people?

Why don’t you ask Jesus when you see Him at the Judgment Seat? 

Mat 23:23   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.  (Jesus, Son of God, telling the Pharisees that they were devils, just like Obama is)

Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  (Jesus again.  Man, He really has an attitude, doesn’t He?)

Mat 23:19   [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?  (Once more for emphasis)

Jesus had no problem telling wicked leaders that they were wicked.  It was the sheep who were being misled by them who were treated with kindness by the Lord.

As Prophet, Jesus followed in the steps of a long line of prophets who TOLD IT LIKE IT WAS to those who needed to hear that their sins were sending them into perdition. You liberals would rather hold hands and sing Kumbya while the ship of your souls is burning to the waterline.

@ IrishEddieOHara

Again we have an example of you being unable to reason. You say you hate liberals, if you are a true Catholic you are not suppose to hate. Again though it is all pick and choose.

Sex is more than just for procreation, it relieves stress, it creates bonds between people. No where did I say sex is a replacement for emotion or any such thing. I personally find that if you truly love a person you can spread love to said person in everything you do.

That doesn’t make any sense, maybe you should read a science magazine or something. Any college freshman in a bio class can tell you that the egg and sperm together doesn’t make an actual human life by any definition.

Yes I am poisoned by liberal media, yet Fox News and the Church aren’t poisoning at all. Forget the fact that liberals are the ones that support welfare, giving to the poor. Things that true Catholics are suppose to do or did we also forget that.

The last thing we need is Priests stating opinions behind the pulpit that will lead to more people being naive enough to think America is suppose to be a theocracy.

I’m calling bullcrap on you, Max.  Liberals are the most notoriously STINGY people on earth.  They don’t give their money at all.  Did you forget that a recent poll showed that religious people FAR FAR outgive liberals??? 

Yeah, right, liberals are really giving.  Of other people’s money.  When I see Barrack Hussein Obama,  the Kennedy Clan, John Kerry, John Edwards, and all the other multi-millionaire liberals empty out their bank accounts, bring the money down to the ghetto, and give it out to pay for medicine, electricity, and other necessities, then I’ll believe that liberals are giving.  Liberals are HYPOCRITES of the highest order when it comes to giving.

Liberals and Socialists only know how to do one thing. We see this in history.  Destroy things.

Got news for you, pal.  Jesus is KING.  One day, like it or not, you will bow your knees to Him as He deserves. it only remains to be seen if you will knee in love and obedience to Him before you enter His Kingdom, or if you will be forced to kneel before you are tossed into hell.  The choice is yours.

Democracy is from the pit of hell.  It is mob rule, and if the mob that has the most votes is evil, then evil prevails. I long for a Catholic theocracy to be established in this country.  Rule of law and no exceptions for those who think they have a “right” to do evil and call it “good.”

And don’t tell me that it is wrong to hate.  My Bible tells me different:

Psa 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD 3068 [is] to hate evil pride, and arrogancy , and the evil way , and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Amo 5:15   Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph. 

God hates certain things and Jesus told us that we are supposed to be like Him.  In fact, that last verse I posted ORDERS US to hate evil.  So don’t try to tell me that hate is wrong.  Hate is only wrong when it is wrongly directed against someone who is innocent of wrong doing and deserves no hatred.

Hate is not okay, it is never okay. To hate is to stop being a human being, to hate is to lose yourself.

I hope you are right, but for me I will instead just focus on being a good person and treating everybody equally.

I see.  So you are willing to tell God to His face that all those verses in the Bible in which He stated His hatred of certain things were totally wrong?

I wanna be there to see that!

I think there’s a difference between hating evil and hating a person.  A human being is not intrinsically evil, even though he might do evil things.  It is challenging but possible to hate the evil that people do without hating the people themselves.

This is making a mountain out of a dumb molehill. This article seems like something I’d expect to see on the Huffington Post.

@Max a good person would cease to be good if he advocated killing another human being.  Try again…I know…it’s hard when it’s stuck in your fly.

I don’t agree with Max’s views on sex, but he doesn’t strike me as a troll.

@IrishEddieOhio:

Jesus explicitly adjusted or even overturned certain things from the Old Testament. For example, He said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ [that comes from the Old Testament of course] But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you ...” 

Jesus does say that “Whoever does not hate his mother and father…and even his own self…cannot be my disciple” but He is using the term “hate” in the semitic sense of “prefer,” not literally hate as in “have malice towards”. That’s basically obvious…

Anyway, if you will read the New Testament it is totally obvious that Jesus teaches us to love everyone, even our enemies, evildoers, etc…even if we must refuse to go along with them, even if we have to challenge them, we are not to hate them.

This doesn’t mean to have nice warm feelings about them, but to wish them good and not evil and to do them no harm, to treat them with compassion, etc.

And St Paul as well - “Bless those who curse you, bless and do not curse them”

AND SO ON.

@Claire, don’t you think anyone who starts out by saying “the Catholic Church thinks it invented sex” is displaying trollish language, and gives himself away as dishonest and inflammatory?

Max, Irish Eddie is correct about the sperm thing, and also about the hating evil thing. You are welcome to criticize and add your opinion just as Irish Eddie has a right about expressing his. Disagreeing is not hating- no matter how heated it becomes.
But I prefer to look at the facts:
I’m with you Max on are teaching kids about their bodies, biology is important. But kids are being taught to use condoms (which are not 100% effective against STD or falling pregnant), and popping the pill (which also isn’t certain to stop pregnancies or nor does it at all protect from diseases). Do you know how many married women I know “accidentally” fell pregnant whilst on the Pill, and with IUD’s?
Also, research shows the Pill increasing the risk of cancers (as does abortion double the risk of breast cancer when it is a woman’s first abortion- WHO).
So if your intention is to teach kids about reproduction and sex Ed, then why don’t schools start by teaching the truth instead of endorsing pharmaceutical commodities like condoms and the Contraceptive Pill?It’s about facts after all, right?
You can’t be certain to prevent ANY pregnancy when you have sex- no method is full proof but abstinence. And you can’t guarantee you won’t catch an STD except in a committed relationship- and this comes in marriage where you are not only spiritually bound to one another, but you are legally bound too.
Take all that free liberal thinking about Sexual expression out of the sex education, and at the same time for fairness, take out the phrases “pro-life” and “purity” if it makes you happy, and teach the science and the facts. And the facts say, no-sex unless in married union, is safe. Do your own research if you think I’m making it up.
So 100% agree Max, teach kids about it all- but don’t BS them. Tell them the truth.
Isn’t that the true “life jacket” of life- the truth.

Anna Lisa, yes, I do agree that statement is trollish.  I apologize;  I didn’t look that far back.  Well, I did see his earlier comment in my email box, but didn’t know who the author was.  When I saw the troll comment I only went as far back as his 4:19 comment which, again, I don’t agree with, but did not see it as trollish.  But yes, saying that “the Catholic Church thinks it invented sex” qualifies as trollish in my book.

:) Claire, *you* don’t need to apologize, all the trolls upstream, or the troll and his sock puppets need to.  Lol, not holding my breath to see if they are as polite as you are…

Because creating a baby is on exactly the same level dying, and because sex is just as casual a thing as going in the water. What a load of rubbish.

You have totally missed the point of the ad.  It is satirizing a statement made by a Republican candidate about women getting raped.  It points out the idiocy of the comment.  (The comment was even carried on Faux Noise, so you probably saw it.)

Hope this helps: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/todd-akins-sexual-assault-gaffe

I am really sick of how the Democratic party is touting Planned Parenthood and Abortion “rights” as part of their party line.  We could totally annihilate them with this if we just had the courage to call a spade a spade.  Stop using their terms of “pro-choice” and start calling it murder.  We need to show the graphic images of the dead babies from abortion.  I am tired of worrying about hurting feelings of those who have had abortion and showing children graphic images.  Let them all see what it really is!  The analogy of this article makes no sense.  You go in the water to get wet.  Never to drown!  People DO have sex to have babies, not just for fun only.

I am hesitant to comment as my 3 year old son Joshua drowned while wearing a life jacket in June 2007. I nearly drowned as well with him and we both knew how to swim and had jackets on…. there were a total of 4 to 5 additional jackets floating around us when the boat sank. I saw my beautiful son die. I again see him die every night in my dream since that day. God gave me Joshua as a gift and he took him as well. It is not for me to know or understand why!God is always in charge. He can not be defied.
To trivialize the death of a child is beyond words. What would they say if they lost a child? They do not understand what they are doing to people with this sick ad. I will live with the pain of the loss of Joshua for all my life. These people are happy to make me and others like me suffer. That should say it all. I am too upset to .......
Jim Dorchak

I think you are all crazy.

Jim,

I’m so sorry for your loss.  I will pray for you and your family.

Not to mention the bad grammar!!!  Ugh!!  You don’t “GO IN THE WATER”, unless of course you’re talking about literally “going” in the water.  You go INTO the water.  And truth be told, teaching abstinence in and of itself is not enough.  It is interpreted, and rightly so, with suppression and negativity.  You simply cannot divorce the life giving power of the fullest expression of human sexuality from our identity as children of God made in the image and likeness of the Trinity - the Lover, the Beloved and the Fruit of that love (Theology of the Body).  Even married persons can be as culpable of use as unmarried persons, if their sexual union is not always open to the possibility of life.  What? Save yourself until marriage so that you can contracept and risk treating, or being treated by, your spouse as an object ?  How many married women have abortions?  There are only two perceptions in society now regarding sexuality:  promiscuity (any sex outside of marriage) and abstinence.  But there is another choice, the only right one:  Chastity - the full acknowledgement and acceptance of the life giving power of our sexuality; knowledge of our full identity as man and woman and children of God and prayerfully surrendering our fertility to the Father.

James,
I am so sorry for what you have been through, to not only lose your child, but to be there watching it and then having it spoofed for the sake of extremely boorish people to be entertained.  Religion and Secular Society aside, there was once in this country a sense of morality and decency that is now gone.  I am Catholic, I do not blame God for my daughter’s cancer - but I grind my teeth every time someone says, “Well, it isn’t Brain Surgery”.  The most basic of common courtesies are rare.  When I saw the picture, I wondered how that child will grow up, or how he will feel one day when someone shows him that picture.  In no way am I defending the creators of the garbage above, but they are too self-centered and self-righteous to stop long enough to think about the impact that picture has in other contexts on people such as yourself - they wanted only “SHOCK VALUE”.  I hope I’m allowed to say this on a Catholic blog.  That picture is the work of a horse’s ass.

Thanks Kellyann

I do not look to “NOT BE Offeded” I know that there are not so considerate people out there. I just wish that these people would use our misery to make money or gain. I feel the same way about the press.

I’m un-hip-what’s a “meme?”
Thanks!

A straight-jacket, I’m thinking, would have been a more apt image than a life-jacket.

James: I am so, so sorry for your tragic loss.  And I will freely admit that I never even considered the impact this wretched add would have one someone who had lost a child to drowning (all I focused on was what a ridiculous analogy it is).

Kellyann:  I also admit that I never thought of it from the perspective of the child in the photo, and that is a very good point. I am absolutely floored to hear that people have responded to your daughter’s cancer by saying that at least it’s not brain surgery.  Unbelievable.

“people who are immersed in the culture of contraception and abortion will eventually come to confuse life with death and death with life”
WHAT?! that makes NO SENSE! open your eyes people! Contraception is responsible! It is what responsible and moral adults do!

@Claire, actually Tara has had several surgeries - I meant that we have all of these little “saying” that pop out of our mouth without even thinking about the fact that we don’t even pause to think how our “slang” affects others.  Even being aware of my daughter’s condition (and a great person) - the dance teacher assigned her group the song “If I Only Had A Brain”.  As society in general becomes so much more casual, many people don’t stop to think - that’s what this picture says to me - The mom in the grocery line lamenting (innocently enough) about the baby-weight she just can’t lose, standing next to the woman who desperately wants a baby. No topic is taboo in any setting, (and while I’m not looking to go back to 1940) and I believe lots of unintentional insensitivity is overlooked.

Gotcha!  I totally misunderstood what you were getting at originally, but now I hear you loud and clear!  I am an adoptive mother, and I would be rich if I had a penny for every time I have overheard someone saying that childbearing is so hard that next time they plan on adopting.  Newsflash:  adoption (and infertility/miscarriage) aren’t exactly easy either!  I’m sure I’ve been guilty of making these types of insensitive comments to others, too, not thinking about how they could affect someone else.

@Claire, we all make these comments to a certain extent - it’s unavoidable - but to purposely take that photo, well the breadth and depth of it’s actual meaning can be debated over and over, but I when children are being used to make an “adult point” - I just wonder how many people actually looked at that boy and saw him as more than a “prop”.

This is absolutely the most absurd thing i have EVER read.  You have a right to be pro-life but please dont preach that people who use contraceptive or even have an unplanned baby have a “death obsessed mentality” or “confuse life with death”.  That is completely ignorant and you are teaching people to forumlate their beliefs based on hatered and fear of others instead of nurturing a respect for life and caring for one another.  THIS is why people hate religion….stop creating a culture of fear and try using real forms of education to rationally explain and demonstrate your beliefs instead of hiding behind an encrypted, insulting piece of paper.

James, I’m so sorry.  I will remember you and your family in my family prayer tonight and at mass in the morning.  God Bless you for speaking up.  Those people who made that ad are woefully ignorant and insensitive.  “Sanctity of Life” is an incredibly narrow category for them.  *Their* life occupies 98% of that space.

@reason…..Are you responding to a post, or the article itself?  Your incoherent thought pattern makes it difficult to discern. People are being instructed to formulate their beliefs based on hatred and fear?  But you would like to see people be instructed to formulate their beliefs based on respect for life and caring for one another? (And you can’t find there here).  Why do people hate religion?  What are the real forms of education?  Like worksheets?

You know it is not being offended that I am concerned with here. It is their blatant devaluation of life. I do not have the right to live “Un Offended”. I do think that the THOUGHT police are very strong on the death side of the argument. The fact that these people are given a venue is note worthy as it speaks to the fact that there are others who love their sin and the death culture.
I had a real time with the press making money off of others pain. (this is all the nightly news is on the TV). When ever I see or hear of some one who has died or was killed I say a short Hail Mary for them and their soul. Even axe murders and the like have parents who have had a loss. It is sad but even in Justice there is a loss. (even more sad is when some one dies with out someone to pray for them).
But the root of it is that it speaks poorly of our society when we minimalize the death of any person/

Very true Kellyann, and that was what bothered me most about the Time breastfeeding cover a few months ago (sorry to be opening up a whole new can of worms here):  that it used a child to make a point, a child who could be very embarrassed by that photo in the future.

@Claire, I think some people on here eat worms for breakfast - lots of protein and keeps ‘em mean! - So you have actually provided a kindness by opening up that can for them. :)

IrishEddieOHara, agree with your rant.  I feel the same way.

“...we shouldn’t see those who create or re-post memes like this as our enemies, but rather as confused people who need our prayers.”

With all due respect, this is a false dichotomy.  They are BOTH our enemies and the enemies of truth, AND confused people who need our prayers.  Our Lord told us to pray for, love, and do good to our enemies; he did not tell us we would have none.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/20/limbaugh-penises-now-10-percent-smaller-and-shrinking-because-of-feminazis/
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See, IrishEddieOHara and TG—you can blame liberals for your erectile dysfunction and anything else that bothers you.
.

I know it’s not that far of a stretch, but to piece together sex and drowning in that meme is just full retard. The meme was in no way intended to suggest anything about sex, it was created purely to make fun of how afraid our culture is of death. We create laws and take away freedoms everyday just to save that one idiot who can’t keep himself out of trouble. Someone drowns and everyone blames the water.

“They just compared the birth of a baby to a horrible form of death.”
You are one sick F**k.

@Tim…..“I know it’s not that far of a stretch, but to piece together sex and drowning in that meme is just full retard.”  Tim, not only is the sentence contradictory, but it makes no sense.  The meme in no way suggests anything about sex?  Tim, when was the last time you used the word “abstain” in reference to water; as in, “I am going to abstain from showering today”, or “While on vacation, I abstained from going into the lake”?  There was an obvious undertone of sex. 
I have not heard the phrase “(insert noun here)is just full retard”.  The definition for “retard” - ..........Retard is a noun that means a hindrance or delay. It is also a derogatory term used to insult people who have a perceived or actual lower level of intelligence than average.  So how does that fit into your little blurb, Tim?  Laws and freedoms are taken away everyday to save the idiot who can’t keep himself out of trouble?  Well, at least it’s good to know that you will be safe Tim.

Hi Reason,

The irony of your post is striking.

This ad is shocking visually because it
shows a beautiful child,
in grave danger

he is the epitome of the innocent,
the sacred, and
irresistably lovable
person—

his life is proposed to be unjustly taken—legally—through banning the very means to save him.

It evokes in the viewer, an outrage—a cry for just treatment of the innocent.

WOULD THAT IT EVOKE IN WOMEN A MATERNAL CALL TO PROTECT AND NURTURE

INNOCENT LIFE.

Yet, in a monstrously deceptive way, this add provokes the very
maternal and paternal senses

that make us more human and better people
and it *attempts* to use that

gift—to support abortions and to support the very same injustice it portrays!

Yeah, it pretty much is an analogy for why abortion is wrong. I hope that if it can at least prick the conscience of a person toward its message of supposed justice—perhaps it means that sense of maternity and paternity and heroism is at least still there…perhaps that is something to work with. Perhaps it means there is some humanity still there and not deadened by the culture of death.

The authors of this unwittingly perhaps turn the table on themselves—by demonstrating that innocent life deserves to be protected.

We have developed our own counterad to the child with the life vest. I would be happy to send along. The theme would be NFP=swimming lessons.
Also, to note who developed this ad—CARE2.  They are committed to “women’s rights” and the environment.  If anthing, they should be committed to protecting women’s health and the environment. We have documented how oral contraceptives (as just one example of all the available harmful contraceptives) hurt women with increased breast and cervical cancers and cardiovascular risks. Also, OCPs harm the environment with changing the sex of fish and polluting the waterways. It is just full hypocrisy that their group would not actually SUPPORT NFP - a green, natural alternative.

Wow, so much to say…

Jim, we will pray for you and your family. Now. I understand.  Whenever there is a tragedy in the family, we are all reminded to pray for each other.  Our family always stops what we’re doing to pray whenever we hear a siren. 

Yes, Jesus tells us to love our enemies.  He never said that there’s no such thing as an enemy.

Now, about Todd Akin…

We’ve heard so much misinformation, a few words from a long interview, taken out of context, and blown entirely out of proportion.  What did he say that was so troubling?  I’m a retired nurse, I watched all of the original interview, and didn’t think it was a big deal.  Oh, I winced a little bit, because I thought he could have explained it a little better than he did, but overall, the orchestrated outrage is just ridiculous. 

I’ve known Todd Akin for quite a while.  He’s genuinely pro-life, and very honorable. 

We must remember that this is a spiritual battle.  There is a truth that was spoken unintentionally, and literally all hell broke loose. 

We must remember why we have the atrocity of abortion in this land.  Satan is the father of lies and a murderer from the start.  Roe vs. Wade is based on a lie.  Norma McCorvey, the Jane Roe of Roe vs. Wade claimed to have been raped.  She later repented, and admitted she lied.  She wasn’t raped.  IT WAS NOT A LEGITIMATE RAPE! 

To all those who say that no one ever falsely cries rape, I beg to differ.  Fifty-million babies prove that lies are deadly things. 

All the phony outrage directed at Todd Akin is just a distraction.  The culture of death is built on a foundation of sand.  The devil doesn’t want anyone to notice, and Todd Akin just inadvertently pointed a spot-light on it.

Abortion is based on a lie.

One more thing:  We are all aware that high levels of stress can cause many health problems, such as headaches, insomnia, ulcers, hypertension, etc.  Stress can also interfere with a woman’s cycle by delaying ovulation, which often lowers the possibility of pregnancy.  Stress also increases the risk of miscarriage.  A forcible rape certainly is stressful.  So he wasn’t so far off after all. 

Let’s pray for courage for each other, and pray for enlightenment for those who are trapped in the culture of death.

“The Facebook Meme that Proves that We Live in a Culture of Death”
Of course this “proves” nothing but that the current crop of humans have too much time on their hands and that the First Amendment is alive and well in the United States.
“When ever I see or hear of some one who has died or was killed I say a short Hail Mary for them and their soul.”
How silly.  There is no such thing as a “soul”.
“This ad is shocking visually because it shows a beautiful child, in grave danger”
Yes, but so what?  What’s the point?
“Yeah, it pretty much is an analogy for why abortion is wrong.”
No, you are simply reading your prejudice into it.
“We have documented how oral contraceptives (as just one example of all the available harmful contraceptives) hurt women with increased breast and cervical cancers and cardiovascular risks.”
So what?  Pregnancy has its own problems.  Is anyone allowed to try to balance cost and benefit?  There are a awful lot of “benefits” to not becoming pregnant.
“It is just full hypocrisy that their group would not actually SUPPORT NFP - a green, natural alternative.”
Get real.  NFP requires intelligence.  Most poor women do not have the will and the intelligence.
“Whenever there is a tragedy in the family, we are all reminded to pray for each other.”
Why?  Prayer is worthless except as a placebo.
“the orchestrated outrage is just ridiculous.”
Of course.  It’s politics.  So what?
“We must remember that this is a spiritual battle.”
How silly.  Perhaps it’s a moral battle?  And supposedly 90% of Catholics use contraceptives.  And Protestants are fine with contraceptives.
“There is a truth that was spoken unintentionally”
Truth?  Truth?  You have your prejudices and I have mine.
“Satan is the father of lies”
How silly.  There is no such thing as “Satan”.
“Roe vs. Wade is based on a lie.”
Irrelevant.  Until it is overturned, it is what it is.  For the last 39 years.
“The devil doesn’t want anyone to notice”
How silly.  There is no such thing as the “devil”.  Oops.  I forgot.  Catholics can still performed “exorcisms”.  How irrational.
“Abortion is based on a lie.”
That sentence does not make a lick of sense.
“So he wasn’t so far off after all.”
How irrational of you to try to defend him.
“Let’s pray for courage for each other, and pray for enlightenment for those who are trapped in the culture of death.”
Fine.  Prayer is worthless.  Please don’t try to take any “action”.  Oops.  I wouldn’t want to give you any ideas.  Please don’t use your religion as a justification for ...

JD Hughes
How silly you are, especially since you do not exist. There is no such thing or person as you. It would be irriational to accept anything you say or write. Please do not use your lack of faith as justification. With out faith you do not exist.

See I can make silly comments just like you do, but you do not exist.

JD Hughes

I almost forgot.

I will pray for you.

On a previous thread, JD Hughes showed his bigotry toward women.  Now he’s showing a particular bigotry toward poor women, who according to him don’t have intelligence.  Yet he does, since he has such an impressive vocabulary (every other word out of his mouth is either “silly” or “hilarious”).  Guess he didn’t get that $150,000/year college education that he seems to think is so essential.  And then he talks about people who have too much time on their hands, yet he spends time on a Catholic website despite a lack of belief in God.  Seems like he is the one with too much time on his hands, or a lack of a life.

Clair
It seems that JD Hughes is fighting with himself and is trying to accept the Catholic Faith. Kind of like a little boy pulling the pig tails of the girl he hates but really loves.
I have known some real Catholic haters over the years who are now the staunch supporters we should all be. This is maybe why JD keeps coming back. Let us all pray for him to continue the conversion journey he has taken (the same one we are all on). God works in wonderous ways and JD is just an example. For me JD strengthens my faith in God - not weakens. Thank you JD for moving me stronger in my faith and closer to God. What a wonderful blessing…. and he does not even know it.

James:  yes, he is definitely fighting with himself (it often seems like he’s carrying on these weird two-way conversations with himself).  I can’t honestly say that he’s a blessing in my life, or that he has any effect on my faith one way or the other.  But I’m glad that he’s had a positive effect on you, and that you’re able to see the bigger picture.

“yet he spends time on a Catholic website”
I don’t pray, but I do have hope.  I hope that a few religious people will “see the light” and “come to their senses” and reject “belief without evidence”.  But I am well aware that it is incredibly unlikely that that would happen to anyone reading this far down in this silly comment thread.
“It seems that JD Hughes is fighting with himself”
How irrational.
“is trying to accept the Catholic Faith”
How irrational.
“real Catholic haters”
Why?  Because you have decided that you get to define morality?  You get to define what is good and what is evil?  Why not Protestants?  Why not Muslims?  Why not Mormons?  Oops.  They are really, really irrational.  When you die you will control a whole planet?  Will it have any life?
“Let us all pray for him”
How irrational.  Prayer is useless.  Unless you are Rick Perry.  Then you can claim that you had a prayer meeting of 30000 in Reliant stadium and that ended the drought.  Hilarious.
“to continue the conversion journey he has taken”
You have hope without any evidence.  There are a lot of “I now realize that religion is superfluous” stories on the Richard Dawkins website.
“God works in wonderous [sic] ways”
You have no evidence for your opinion.
“JD strengthens my faith in God”
Hilarious.  You have no doubt at all?  Which “god”?  Why your particular “god”?
“he does not even know it.”
But you have just told me so - so now I do know it.  You are confused.
“you’re able to see the bigger picture.”
A billion stars in this galaxy.  A billion galaxies.  A billion billion planets probably.  Over 3 billion years of evolution.  67 million years since an asteroid helped wipe out the dinosaurs so that primitive little mammals could evolve into apes and humans.  7 billion humans on this Pale Blue Dot.  I don’t think you “see the bigger picture”.
No Adam, no Eve.  No Eden.  No original sin.  No need for redemption.  No need for a savior.  No evidence either.  Just a book of mythology.  Why not the Qur’an?  Why not the Book of Mormon?  Because this is the faith that your parents indoctrinated you into when you were too young to think for yourself?
I think you should stop feeding the troll.  :-)

Some trolls don’t need feeding, because their lives are so boring that poorly written monologues are a big source of entertainment for them.  At least this time there are a few new vocabulary words following all the “how"s, though (such as “irrational”).  Maybe in time that $150,000/year college degree will pay off, and this troll will actually be able to model rational thinking for oneself.

Well Clair you are so correct, but it should be noted that JD came back to the blog and there by supported all that I had said earlier. He is “It seems that JD Hughes is fighting with himself”. Otherwise he would have stopped commenting. After all no one else is arguing with JD…. just JD. So I rest my case, and I thank you JD for strengthing my faith in GOD.
Pretty simple if you think about it.

Very true, James.  I give you a lot of credit for being able to look beyond the troll exterior.  Thank you for modeling charity.

@Claire :D!, I knew “she” was a “he”! At least he’s working on his honesty.  Now he needs to come out of the closet, admit he’s gay, and work out his anger at God and Catholicism in therapy. :) (affectionate pat on the troll head)
.
Atheists take the biggest leap of faith of anybody on Earth:  That a whole lot of SOMETHING, came from NOTHING.
.
What a good, beautiful and amazing SOMETHING it is. The poetry of God Himself.

Oh, and the swipe at “poor women”, who “lack the intelligence for NFP”?  Typical.  What next?  If we can have our religious liberties trampled upon with the HHS mandate, we can hunt “poor” women down here and give them shots of Depo Provera,—like they do in India and Africa.

A lot of “pro-abortion” people see kids as if kids were some kind of burden (not as human beings who are in need of love, or as human beings who can teach them how to love, but as “objects” that are disposable).

Also, a lot of people don’t understand the connection between abortion and euthanasia. When people in the culture constantly absorb the message that “abortion is okay,” then it becomes a whole lot easier for people to think that “euthanasia is okay.” People will start killing old people for the same reasons they kill babies. It costs money to take care of babies and old people. It takes time to take care of babies and old people. It takes energy to take care of babies and old people. It takes LOVE to take care of babies and old people.

One way to help stop the society and the culture from starting to promote the idea that it’s “okay” to kill old people is to help stop the society and the culture from promoting the idea that it’s “okay” to kill babies. People have to start saying “STOP!” If you don’t, then you might as well start figuring out right how you’re going to keep your grandma and grandpa alive when your parents don’t have the time, the money or the energy to love their parents. My quasi-humorous call to action to help stop “the culture of death” is here http://www.know7things.com/holiness.html

Chris Smith…..... written with the clarity of voice I have always know you to possess.

@JD…I too have hope.  I hope that you embrace the meaning of the word “redundant”, and perhaps you will stop repeating yourself.  Also, the next time you want to wax poetic about “Space….the final frontier”, it may help to know that ” billion billion” may be more succinctly expressed with 10 to the 18th power.

That’s very optimistic of you, Kellyann.  I myself don’t have much hope in this area.  Talk about redundant:  his comments keep flooding my inbox, and they’re all so similar that I can’t keep track of which thread he’s on at any given time.  I suppose if I invested some time I could sort it all out, but I think my time is better spent on other pursuits.

“Otherwise he would have stopped commenting.”
You are hilarious.  A troll only stops commenting when he is ignored.  :-)
“Atheists take the biggest leap of faith of anybody on Earth:  That a whole lot of SOMETHING, came from NOTHING.”
Hilarious.  Obviously “something” happened about 13.7 billion years ago.  That someone would claim that his religion is the One True Religion because something happened 13.7 billion years ago is irrational.  But all religions do claim that.  So they are all irrational.
“The poetry of God Himself.”
Hilarious nonsense.
“If we can have our religious liberties trampled upon with the HHS mandate”
Hilarious.  You want the “religious liberty” to tell someone else that they are not entitled to certain health benefits for “free” to be paid for by everyone.  That’s simply imposing your will on someone else.  It has nothing to do with “religious liberty” except in your fevered imagination.
“we can hunt “poor” women down here and give them shots of Depo Provera,—like they do in India and Africa.”
I do not see a citation for this assertion.  That you claim that something like that could happen “here” is simply stupid.
“A lot of “pro-abortion” people see kids as if kids were some kind of burden”
What a wonderfully stupid generalization!
“Also, a lot of people don’t understand the connection between abortion and euthanasia.”
Perhaps because there is no connection.  Where is your citation?
“People will start killing old people for the same reasons”
The main problem with your assertion is that it is has been proven false in the places where assisted suicide is permitted.
“stop the society and the culture from promoting the idea that it’s “okay” to kill babies”
The current rate of infanticide is much lower than it has been in the past.
“start figuring out right how you’re going to keep your grandma and grandpa alive”
Your stupid rant has gone way, way past the limits of rationality.
“succinctly expressed with 10 to the 18th power”
Hilarious.
“I think my time is better spent on other pursuits.”
QUITE SO!!!

Oh, we know plenty about JD Hughes.  He’s hypocritical, sexist, prejudiced against poor people, a poor writer with a limited vocabulary, redundant, bored, and irrational.  What more is there to know, other than?  I can’t imagine there’s much depth there…

“He’s hypocritical, sexist, prejudiced against poor people, a poor writer with a limited vocabulary, redundant, bored, and irrational.”
Hilarious.  An excellent job of name-calling.  How pointless.
“I can’t imagine there’s much depth there…”
You can imagine an omnipotent “god”, but you cannot imagine “retirement” with children and grandchildren (not to mention plenty of money)?
“I suppose if I invested some time I could sort it all out”
Why bother?  You have “belief without evidence”.  I point out that that is irrational.  It’s that simple.  You have no defense.  The whole point of religion is unquestioning obedience.  Once you begin to doubt and question, you become aware how pointless it is.  Worship a “god”?  Give thanks to a “god”?  Tim Tebow does not have talent without a “god”?  Get “redemption for your “sins”“?  Go to heaven or hell?  It’s all irrational.
But you could come to realize that it’s a nice “social club” of like-minded people.

And there’s so much point to every thing you do?  Every comment you post points back to your own hypocrisy and ignorance.

Claire, what’s puzzling is that “billions, and billions” makes a difference to an old guy who likes Carl Sagan.—As if God has an expiration date.:)  Should we care if the Universe was 26 billion years old?  How basic.  I wonder what hurts his conscience so much that he needs to hide behind “billions and billions”. Lol.

Quote from Mark Shea:
“The answer is that the Catholic faith is not a product of consumer culture. It proposes certain truths to us, not because they suit our lifestyle, but because they’re true. Nobody prefers a universe in which it’s necessary to “take up your cross” (versus, say, a universe in which you just have to take up your TV remote) in order to find life eternal. It’s just that the universe Jesus describes happens to be the universe we live in, like it or not.”
All religions are irrational, but apparently Catholicism is really, really crazy.  The One True Faith that leads to “truth”.  LOL
“And there’s so much point to every thing you do?”
Nope.  I watch silly TV programs.  I point out irrational nonsense way, way down in a Catholic blog to crazy people.
“Every comment you post points back to your own hypocrisy and ignorance.”
You are entitled to your opinion.  But then you are religious.  So I ignore your opinions.
“As if God has an expiration date.”
Hilarious.  As if a “god” actually exists.  As if the “fact” that this universe came into existence 13.7 billion years ago had any relationship to your irrational religion.
“Atheists take the biggest leap of faith of anybody on Earth:  That a whole lot of SOMETHING, came from NOTHING.”
What a stupid thing to say.
“Should we care if the Universe was 26 billion years old?”
Nope.  Should you care if your irrational religion actually had any basis other than a book of mythology?  Probably.  But you don’t.
“he needs to hide behind “billions and billions””
Needs to hide?  I’m not “hiding”.  I’m right here.  But you seem to need to hide behind a book of mythology and silly name-calling.

Talk about hilarious:  JD Hughes, the king of name-calling (“how stupid”, “how silly”, “what a stupid thing to say”, “how ignorant”, just like a woman”...), critiquing Mark Shea, whose intelligence speaks for itself.

JD, Whether the “Big Bang” happened 14 billion years ago is not the point.  The point is that it happened.  Please tell me by what cause?
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Of course you’ll have to admit that this is a mystery to you.
.
I can exist without understanding the “God particle” or whether black holes are the anti matter from dead stars.  God is nearly unfathomable to me.  I’m sure there will come a day when I will look at my “gestational” understanding of God as akin to “See Jane run.  Run Jane, run!”  We’re all fetuses in this “pale blue dot”.  We barely understand anything.  Look at you, you haven’t any idea why you have even been granted rationality, much less what it is supposed to me in the service of.
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Yes, it is easy to laugh off “a book of mythology” that chronicles the murder, fornication, adultery, and faithlessness of a tribe of nearly uncivilized barbarians, wandering in the desert.  This book that describes their wanderings can be easily dismissed.  But if you take a close look at it, we can see how far we have come collectively, yet how brutally close we are to the animals we so recently were.  We still murder, and take what doesn’t belong to us.  We’re still greedy and selfish.
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My kids are ages three to twenty five.  I get to witness the marvel of human nature, at many different stages, simultaneously.  It gives me a unique insight into the workings of the human spirit.  Most of all, I’ve learned what it is to love *unto death* if need be.  I understand the patience of a parent who waits for us, with understanding and compassion as we are struggling, and learning to love more and more selflessly.  Sometimes the lessons are extremely “hard won”.  I am grateful for this *gift* to be able to*choose* Him without compulsion.  I am grateful for a struggle that I can freely *offer* Him.  If it had all been given to me in perfection, I would have never had the joy of *self donation*.
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With Heaven and Hell unveiled before us, what would we choose?
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Yes, JD, I realize you’ve reduced all of this to just one more Cinderella story, one more Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker yada, yada, silly, epic comic book.  Yes, this is what that smooth “rational” voice in your head tells you.  What I’d like to politely counter this with is the reality that art, and myth have always imitated reality.  The story of good and evil is played out in every single combination we could possible conceive of.  Some of it is executed well and others (lol) not so much.  It doesn’t scandalize me that every single culture and “holy” book speaks of, in its own rudimentary way this epic struggle of death and redemption, goodness and evil.  It is written on all of our hearts.  Yes, compared to the reality of the God who initiated a universe, if not billions of universes, our laughable grasp of our reality is nearly a joke.  We are stammering babies.  We are all laughably ignorant.  My three-year-old once asked me earnestly if we could “run home” to get his bike (in California)when he was admiring another toddler’s bike in a park in Paris.  Did I laugh and sneer at his reality?  I hugged him until he was nearly breathless, and still tell the story with delight, about the simplicity of children.
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Five billion, fourteen billion 27 billion.  27 billion universes, 49 trillion universes…Mommy can we run home and get my bike?

JD, I feel so sorry for you.  I am not here to try to come out on top in an internet com box.  THAT, is silly.  You are not silly or hilarious. Your name calling pretty much sums things up about the hell that already exists in your heart.  The life of your soul will continue on the hateful trajectory you have laid out for yourself.  For now, there is still hope. You are a real, living and breathing person, who believes that once he dies he will simply rot until he is dust, (or will have that process sped up by those who want to hang on to a few more of those dollars).  I pray you will come to know your intrinsic worth, and inner dignity.  I hope you will at least consider the hope that you have a soul.

@@Claire and Anna Lisa…I think JD is right in one sense - he states:
“Otherwise he would have stopped commenting.”
“You are hilarious.  A troll only stops commenting when he is ignored.  :-)”
He is obviously a disturbed person, with delusions of his own grand intelligence. He enjoys the attention his outrageous and nonsensical comments bring in the form of posts - our (collective “our” to anyone who has responded to him) comments make him feel important because he is either very lonely or feels extremely inadequate in his own life. I agree with him - he is gobbling up comments refuting his own absurdities because there is nothing or no one else important in his life.  But in his lonely sadness, he has decided to be mean and taunt people.  So I think we should all just say goodnight to “JustDense”, I mean, JD.

As someone who grew up steeped in the culture of death and cult of “ME”. Having children is like dying. Dying to the self. I was unprepared for the sacrifices having children would demand. I still struggle. We have become accustomed to being comfortable and entertained.
Children cause lots of discomfort and much boredom.

Kellyann:  you are absolutely right.  I highly doubt that he will go away even if he is ignored, because I think he likes talking to himself.  But even so, I will try to take your advice.

Alittlelate:  I agree that motherhood involves a lot of sacrifice.  I even agree with the discomfort part.  But the boredom part I can’t relate to.  My son is a laugh a minute, and the joy he brings me makes the discomfort so worth it.  Maybe I would feel differently if I had a large family, I don’t know.  Or maybe it’s because I waited so long for him.  Anyway, prayers for you.

@Kellyann, (sigh) Yes, he’s a troll, but even my own kids “troll” me at times.  My three y.o. yells “Stop trolling me!” to her brother in H.S. lol.  I guess I have a tough hide. Plus, I come from a family that takes “pranking” others to an art form. The old rascal’s despair (and hidden cry for help)really plucks my heartstrings.  Can you imagine facing what he must face every single day of his life?  Death.  Death with a very final period after it.  Nothingness, no true love, no soul, no reason for being, no nobility…If I were a rotten troll with no hope, I’d secretly want to be convinced of light and hope and Truth and a God that loves me. I wouldn’t want anyone to give up on me. I can’t think of a greater poverty than his…So very, very sad.  I’m offering some stuff up for him.

@anna lisa…You’re a good person to care about what hides beneath that old onion’s skin - better than me - because I’d probably be more inclined to just continue to argue with him (if there were more than 15 words in his whole vocabulary).  You and Claire have really taught me about being more patient. (Considering I have almost no patience for people like that, I still have a long way to go)
@ALittleLate…I don’t think that anyone is ever ready for the struggles that parental responsible brings, and there are many sacrifices.  So you are not alone in feeling that way.  If you are overwhelmed and don’t feel as if you have enough help, you should speak to someone you trust - clergy, doctor, etc.  But if you’ll pardon my bluntness, your first sentence almost sounds like an excuse, “I grew up in a Culture of Death and a Cult of Me”?  That doesn’t let you off the proverbial hook - a lot of people grew up exposed to the same culture.  Are you still struggling with all the “ME” energy that you now have to devote to your children in order that they have happy and healthy lives?  Also, your last sentence is very disconcerting.  You end with your own discomfort and boredom?  Children are very perceptive.  They probably know that you are bored, or that something is not quite “right”  You may have grown up very “ME” oriented - but don’t you want your children to have some of “You” that isn’t given begrudgingly?

@ JD:  I’ll pray for you.  (And I hope that doesn’t bother you too much.)

TL;DR
Jesus was married?!  Nope.  The annual council of 252 AD decided that that particular “gospel” was not compatible with the currently accepted “gospels”.  So it was not included in the officially sanctioned book of mythology.
“critiquing Mark Shea, whose intelligence speaks for itself.”
Whose devotion to his religious mythology speaks for itself.
“It’s just that the universe Jesus describes happens to be the universe we live in, like it or not.”
Apparently he lives in a completely different “reality” from the one that I live in.  The difference is that he has no evidence that certain things that he thinks are part of his reality actually exist.  Faith - belief without evidence.

Today at http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/22/different-takes-should-we-abandon-idea-of-hell/?hpt=hp_c3
“What happens when we die?
Human beings were created by God with both a physical body and a spiritual soul. When someone dies, their body goes into the grave and their spirit goes into an afterlife to face judgment.”
Really, really crazy.  Really, really scary.  Because both Christianity and Islam share this craziness and both have the power to bring about “The End Of The World As We Know It”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ahmadinejad-israel-eliminated/2012/09/24/id/457372?s=al&promo_code=1027F-1
“Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday disregarded a U.N. warning to avoid incendiary rhetoric and declared ahead of the annual General Assembly session that Israel has no roots in the Middle East and would be “eliminated.”“

JD would you explain your comment about how Christianity and Islam both have the power to bring about “The end of the World as we know it” You need to qualify this statement. Christ said He came into the world to bring destruction and “how I wish it were on fire now.” He was referring to the world of the Prince of Darkness. Yes Christianity does seek to end the world aswe know it but not the physical world but the world of men that is the culture of death and ruled by sin and self-absorbtion. Iran wants to bring about the twelve Iman and convert the world by the sword (nuclear weapons). Two different concepts. Which world would you like to live in? Time is short we all need to choose.

TROLL WINS.

I WAS READING THIS THREAD UNTIL I REACHED JD HUGHES.  THEN THE THREAD IS CLOGGED WITH RESPONSES TO THE TROLL. 

ALL WAY OFF THE TOPIC. I AM VERY IMPRESSED BY EVERYONE’S ANSWERS.  YOU ARE ALL VERY WELL VERSED IN REALITY.  BUT SHOULD NOT THOSE ANSWERS BE THEIR OWN BLOG POST UNDER THAT TOPIC.

THIS GUY HAS SPUN YOU. AND HE IS WORKING TO DEPRESS YOU WITH LIES. 

DON’T YOU GUYS HAVE A MONITOR?  OR A MINIMIZE OR SOMETHING?

Regarding the topic.

Contraception is certainly not analogous to a life preserver.  Even allowing for a handful of conditions which are treated with the pill, the pill proscribes life in its function and endangers life in its side effects. 

One of those side effects is spreading STD’s. Most modern perversions are only possible because of modern contraceptives - and hygiene, clean water, health care, and other beneficial sciences, and services.  Created, btw, by Western Civilization pursing Christendom.

What function though, does hormonal contraception or IUD’s perform in STD prevention?  Even condoms are useless at preventing disease. 

Yes, yes, I know - the books all say that condoms reduce risks, but that’s because that’s Culture of Death.  Condoms fail, mistakes happen, and generally contact sufficient to spread many diseases is ensured.

So why are we not all dead?  Oh, wait, see above.  Yeah, health care and hygiene. Without the back up plans, to protect us from the miscreants abusing the gifts given to them, millions of people would be suffering horrific deaths. 

The only reason to use contraception that is scientifically valid (save the exceptions alluded to above) is to prevent birth. 

Contraception is to procreation as swallowing ipecac before eating to induce vomiting.  In the latter case, we call it bulimia, but in the former we are supposed to celebrate it.

Topeka:  unfortunately, these forums are very poorly monitored (it’s very intermittent), and the trolls take advantage of that.  But don’t worry, JD’s lies have no power with anyone here.

Claire,

Yes, the responses are remarkable.  I can tell NCR has some very thoughtful, and intelligent readers.  But it is frustrating to see a thread hi-jacked. 

God Bless you! And the lurkers, and the trolls too.

“how Christianity and Islam both have the power to bring about “The end of the World as we know it””
The US has the bomb and is “controlled” by Christianity.
Iran will have the bomb and is controlled by Islam.
“HE IS WORKING TO DEPRESS YOU WITH LIES.”
Hilarious.  Can you be specific?  Adam and Eve did not exist.  There was no “original sin”.  There is no need for “redemption”.  There is virtually no evidence that there was a “Jesus” that was “crucified”.  There is no heaven or hell.  There is no need to scare little children by describing “hell” as a place for “evil” children.  Which of these is a “lie”?
“DON’T YOU GUYS HAVE A MONITOR?”
Wouldn’t it be so much better to merely have an “echo chamber” and no dissent?
“the pill proscribes life in its function”
That’s a good theory.  The pill is not perfect.  But its purpose is certainly to prevent conception.  So what?  Do you wish to make the pill illegal?  That would make you a very crazy religious nut.
“One of those side effects is spreading STD’s.”
Non sequitur of course.
“Most modern perversions”
Hilarious.  The word “modern” is inappropriate.  There is nothing new under this 5 billion year old sun.
“Created, btw, by Western Civilization pursing Christendom.”
Christianity stood in the way of modernity whenever it could.  Religion is incompatible with science.  Science learns about reality - religion knows nothing and is simply irrelevant to science.
“Culture of Death”
Hilarious.  Your catchphrase is meaningless.  Rally the troops with a silly slogan.
“Without the back up plans”
Better known as science.  Exorcisms have not proven effective.
“contraception that is scientifically valid ... is to prevent birth.”
That’s a stupid thing to say.  Contraception attempts to prevent conception of course.  Birth???
“JD’s lies have no power with anyone here.”
Because at this point, the only other people here but me are crazy Catholics - completely immune to reason.
“I can tell NCR has some very thoughtful, and intelligent readers.”
Hilarious.  I think you are prejudiced.  And JF does not compose intelligent sentences and has no need for intelligent readers.
“But it is frustrating to see a thread hi-jacked.”
Then I suggest you go away and ignore this thread.
“God Bless you! And the lurkers, and the trolls too.”
Your “god’s” blessing plus $3.95 will buy you a cup of coffee at the usual place.  In other words, there is no evidence that a “blessing” is anything but worthless.
“The Facebook Meme that Proves that We Live in a Culture of Death”
Of course this silly picture “proves” nothing of the sort.  In fact there is not even any agreement on what this picture is supposed to mean.
“Chastity and pro-life advocates have long said that when people live in a state of active rejection of new human life, expecting to be able to engage in the pleasurable aspects of human sexuality without an openness to any children who may come along (unexpectedly or otherwise), they will begin to lose respect for human life.”
Yes, perhaps such people have say that.  But I think it’s just their silly religion talking.  I think there has been an enormous increase in the “respect for human life” in the last few centuries.  Read “The Better Angels of Our Nature”.  The rate of infanticide was horrendous.  Duels over “honor”.  Witches killed for nothing.  Murder common.  And, of course, the punishment for apostasy or blasphemy is death in the parts of the world who reject modernity because of their religion.

JD Hughes
re; “LIES”
MY POST ADVOCATED NOT FEEDING TROLL. SINCE THERE IS NO MODERATOR TO BLOCK YOU, YOU HAVE HI-JACKED THE THREAD.
YOU POST AGITPROP ON BEHALF OF YOUR FANTASY IDEOLOGY DEDICATED TO HATE, DEATH, VIOLENCE AND MURDER.
HENCE EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS A LIE. 
WE WILL PRAY FOR YOU - YOU CAN ALWAYS COME TO JESUS.
I SUGGEST A SELF-HELP GROUP BASED ON THE 12 STEPS. 
IN THE ALTERNATIVE: I OFFER THE FOLLOWING:
1. I AM SORRY SOMEONE HURT YOU.
2. REPENT FROM YOUR ANGER. 
3. FORGIVE THOSE WHO HURT YOU.
4. CONFESS YOUR SINS.
5. JOIN A CHURCH.
6. LEARN TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS PENANCE.
7. JOIN IN THE HAPPINESS OF NOT HATING.
8. EXPERIENCE JOY.

@topeka…..“YOU POST AGITPROP ON BEHALF OF YOUR FANTASY IDEOLOGY DEDICATED TO HATE, DEATH, VIOLENCE AND MURDER.”

Agitprop = political propaganda promulgated chiefly in literature, drama, music, or art.

How exactly does that statement pertain to the senseless babbling of JD?

You advocate not “feeding the troll”, then you pull out the bag of popcorn.  I am not, nor will I ever be the Poster Child for Catholicism, but I find it odd to insult someone with name-calling, then say you’ll pray for them.  I am also not above sarcasm, and your “alternative offerings” above drip of it.

If I don’t feel like reading his long rant, I skip it, and move on, but he’s just an anonymous guy who likes attention in the form of responses.  I don’t care if he joins a church or confesses his sins, heck, if he is really happy, more power to him, but I don’t pray for him - do you really?  And if you do, why the “pre-prayer” insults?

@JD….Could you PLEASE find some new adjectives? “Hilarious and silly” are getting tiresome…...also, it wouldn’t hurt to truncate your sizable litanies.

“Witches killed for nothing.”....Your point here was….? Better have a damn good reason to kill a Witch?

Kellyann,
1. Agitprop is not limited to movies. It is Agitating Propaganda, and JD’s babbling is almost entirely Agitprop.  He is supporting the culture of death (I don’t know why so I call it “Fantasy Ideology” rather than speculate.
2. “feeding the troll” - guilty as charged.  And I would pop some popcorn, but my popper is packed up.
3. as for dripping of sarcasm, I disagree, I don’t see it, but I will apologize for it - generally now unless you can explain.
4. “name-calling” - if “troll” is name calling, so be it, I am sorry about that. 
5. It seems rather judgmental of you to say I am insulting him by restating his position in favor of death, which is the reason for calling him, and for describing him as being a troll, and accusing me of sarcasm. 
6. And then you describe his posts as “senseless babble” - so it is ok to deny his intelligence and rationality? 
7. I like the way you characterize him as an anonymous guy who likes attention - this is very passive-aggressive.  It doesn’t sound like an insult, but then again, there is no other way to interpret it.
8. You don’t care about his soul?  Then why are you reading a Catholic blog.  Remember the Great Commission?
9. Back to sarcasm, “do you really?” ... “pre-prayer insults”  - I take it sarcasm only runs one way.  See 10 and 11.
10.  Yes, I do pray - everyday for everybody - for all of the intentions we have.  Lacking omnipotence, of course I only pray generally for all of the prayers I have offered to pray for over the years.  If it could be listed - it would be a long list. It’s easy - about 15 minutes.
11. Actually I do care about JD.  Without going into it - I have read many of his posts, and I know he is suffering, though I have no idea what.  Thus, since he wants attention, I gave him a call.  Seriously, do you not understand that people who are in the Culture of Death are hurting? 
12. Anyway - I apologize for hurting your feelings.  And please do not take the points I made above, eg point 9, as anything directed at you save to just get you to think out of the box.  What mainly concerns me is why you think JD is not worth an intervention?  If he tries 12 steps, he will feel so much better.  My mom did it for her eating, that alone got her started on a long, positive journey.  I did after I was divorced. 

God bless!  ;-)

@topeka…I am sorry that I was not clear - the name-calling and insult I spoke of refer to the same thing - calling him a troll, and then saying (as many have done before you - that he will be prayed for - even though he is a troll).
I did not mean to insinuate that you were insulting him regarding his stance on death. 
As for #6 - I do find it to be “senseless babble, most of it redundant - I just don’t see how it is ““...AGITPROP ON BEHALF OF YOUR FANTASY IDEOLOGY DEDICATED TO HATE, DEATH, VIOLENCE AND MURDER.”....As you can see, the definition doesn’t mention movies exclusively, and I simply disagree that his pattern of taking quotes from others, calling them silly and hilarious, and then moving on to the next quote is equal to Agitprop.
Agitprop = political propaganda promulgated chiefly in literature, drama, music, or art.
As for #7, I’m at a loss - we are all rather anonymous here, and I didn’t think that saying he is a guy who likes to “hear” himself post and read the havoc he wreaks is insulting. So if calling him “anonymous guy” is passive aggressive - then how ‘bout we call it a matter of opinion?
As for sarcasm, I openly admitted to it….so I don’t understand #9.
Whether or not I think JD is worthy of an intervention doesn’t make much of a difference if he has no desire for one. 12 steps have statistical success for those committed to them, so I’m glad that you and your mom have had positive experiences. 
I do not see how or why I should be upset about anything you wrote - so no need to apologize to me. But #12 is interesting - a few posts ago you wanted a monitor and a minimize for the “hijacking troll”.  I doubt we’ve ever been in or out of the same box.

Kellyann,
Thank you for your comments - points received, and I agree with you mostly.
1. Just as a point of clarity, you wrote in the original post ” ...I am also not above sarcasm… “
and then you wrote
” ...As for sarcasm, I openly admitted to it….so I don’t understand #9…”
2. Now, in light of the second post I understand the meaning and intent of the first post, and that helps infer some understanding of what you are trying to tell me.  I think.
3. But - I do not think I would have understood without the extra clarification.  And - as I am older and been around the barn, I do not think I would get it if it came at me again without the clarification.  I’ve made this mistake before. It’s not intentional.
4. Point: Not all of us are equally intuitive in our understanding of the language, and these posts are deceptively “informal” (but are also actually rather permanent too). I know sometimes I fall into the trap of reading more or less into a post than is really there.  But when I post, I usually think I am shooting straight even if I am not.  And like most people, I guess that’s what others usually do.
4.1 Remember, this is the internet. It is a public medium like a soap box.  I often forget that myself, but others are reading this stuff, though to “us” it’s just conversation.
5. Thank you the lessons.  I’m not a NCR regular - I prefer financial and political sites/blogs.  The former are more formal, and the latter much more irrational, angry, and so forth.  I suppose I need to dial it back a notch for NCR. 
Anyway - you have a good evening.
God Bless ;-)

I’m not sure that I agree about categorizing the term “troll” as an insult.  It’s certainly not a flattering term, but I see it more as something factual than an insult.  It’s someone who comes to a forum for the purpose of distracting from a productive discussion.  JD himself has admitted to being one.  Then again, when it comes to JD, many observations of him are both factual and insulting nature (for example, his limited vocabulary).  I can’t say that I have prayed for him, but I’m also not sure that these observations/insults are mutually exclusive to praying for him (although I will admit that pointing them out to him is probably not the greatest witness of Christianity).  In any case, I think Kellyann’s advice to refrain from feeding the troll is a good one, and it’s time for more of us to follow her example.

“1. I AM SORRY SOMEONE HURT YOU.
2. REPENT FROM YOUR ANGER.
3. FORGIVE THOSE WHO HURT YOU.
4. CONFESS YOUR SINS.
5. JOIN A CHURCH.
6. LEARN TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS PENANCE.
7. JOIN IN THE HAPPINESS OF NOT HATING.
8. EXPERIENCE JOY.”
The “H word” here.  No one has “hurt” me.  I am laughing at your nonsense.  I am not angry.  I have no one to forgive.  The word “sin” is meaningless.  I have no need to waste any time in a church.  I already do “love my neighbors” and my taxpayers and my friends and family since they all give meaning to my life.  I am already not hating.  I already experience a lot of joy.  It would seem that your perception of me is totally incorrect.

““Witches killed for nothing.”....Your point here was….?”
My point is that the past was much, much worse in so many respects than the present.  Read “The Better Angels of Our Nature”.

“so it is ok to deny his intelligence and rationality?”
Of course it is.  I claim all religions are irrational in that they are belief without evidence.  You are perfectly free to claim that my opinion is irrational.  Then I laugh at you again.

“Yes, I do pray - everyday for everybody”
But that is irrational since there is no real effect of prayer on reality.
“I know he is suffering, though I have no idea what.”
Why should I not say the “H word” to your misperception?
“My mom did it for her eating”
The “H word” here.  I refuse to give up Blue Bell.

“(for example, his limited vocabulary)”
The “H word” here.  Antidisestablismentarianism.  Discombobulation.  I had an excellent English teacher 1957-1959.  The SAT vocabulary was trivial.  But you religious people tend to cause the same reactions over and over and that is the “H word” and the “I word”.

Note that I repeated the fundamental theme of this JF post and you ignored it:
“The Facebook Meme that Proves that We Live in a Culture of Death”
Of course this silly picture “proves” nothing of the sort.  In fact there is not even any agreement on what this picture is supposed to mean.

“it’s time for more of us to follow her example.”
By all means yes!

@ Claire, Kellyann,
“I’m also not sure that these observations/insults are mutually exclusive to praying for him (although I will admit that pointing them out to him is probably not the greatest witness of Christianity”
—-
1. Yes, I don’t think it is mutually exclusive.  Especially on a public forum.  We should all be praying for everyone.  And pointing out a fault is not inappropriate when one has stuck his neck out. 
2. There is an argument to be made for the pure positive, or pure prayer approach in making a witness to another person.  This applies to persuasion in general, not just religious. 
3. But, engaging in confrontation, constructive feedback (ie positive criticism), challenging negativity and bad ideas, no matter how banal and gentle and whatever can lead to conflict. 
4. Personally, I know many people who have enjoyed decades of rose colored, gentle persuasion - and I guess the theory is that they can go to hell because no one ever told them they need to change their ways?
5. Personal example - me.  I was challenged, confronted, and endured conflict - which led to my conversion.  Now, true, angry hate-based challenges accomplished little; but if someone had not “slapped me silly” with an intellectual 2x4 I would still be an unbeliever.
6. Example of the current trend: Abby Johnson.  The abortion provider was swayed by a positive approach. 
7. Counter examples: Me who came to Jesus in an Advanced Chemical Engineering Lab at one the nation’s top schools, my friend John Doe1 who came to Jesus in prison, Uncle John Doe2 who came to Jesus after his girlfriend laid down the law, my neighbor John Doe3 who came to Jesus after his first wife left him, my friend the Glass man who came to Jesus after getting caught with a half pound of pot, my colleague John Doe4 who came after her husband dumped her ... and many more.  Challenging people who defend nonsense works.  But then nonsense isn’t the right word either.  There’s no point to challenging a four year old who still believes in Santa.  The object is to challenge bad ideas which can lead to bad behaviors. 
8. Thank you guys!
God Bless!  ;-)

Topeka:  I think I can see both your points and Kellyann’s points on this one.  I will say that my behavior with JD Hughes has not always been stellar.  He, and other trolls, tend to bring out my bad side (and this is my fault, not theirs;  while their behavior is deplorable, I’m still responsible for myself).  So I’m sorry to say that there have been occasions when I’ve sunk to his level.  I do think that everything I’ve accused him of was absolutely true, but I still could have either kept my mouth shut or said it in a more charitable way.  So in my case, I do think it would be hypocritical of me to say those things in one breath and then say that I’m praying for him in another breath.  But yes, I do see the value in praying for everyone, and maybe some day I’ll be able to bring myself to pray for him.  But frankly there are only so many hours in a day, and there are so many people that I need to pray for anyway, that he hasn’t yet made it to my list.  Which is why I’m thankful for people like you who are way more charitable and generous than I am.  (And coming from you it doesn’t sound hypocritical, because although you have “told it like it is” to him, you have not sunk to his level in the process.  I’m sorry that I can’t say the same thing for me.)

@topeka…What did any of that have to do with the article?  You and JD seem to have much in common - the “unassuming brag” - not only did you come to Jesus, but, “...in an Advanced Chemical Engineering Lab at one the nation’s top schools” [Ok, we get - you’re not dumb]......
[JD - in demonstration of his excellent vocabulary]...“Antidisestablismentarianism.  Discombobulation.  I had an excellent English teacher 1957-1959.  The SAT vocabulary was trivial.”
[Did you repeat a grade, JD, or just have the same teacher for 2 years?]
@Claire….Please stop apologizing for your opinion.  We could all become better people - something to strive for in the grand scheme of everyone’s life, but “topeka” read more than 100 comments - then criticized the monitors of the blog - then did exactly what was accused of JD - veering off-topic.
Here’s my contribution to the “Word of the Day Club”:
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - a nonsense word meaning fantastic; a nonsense word used by children to express approval or to represent the longest word in English.
Have a good evening, Claire!

Kellyann: I thought of you when I saw JD’s vocabulary words, and I was really hoping you would notice them.  Suffice it to say that the two words he mentioned were words I was familiar with in elementary school (possibly from Schoolhouse Rock clips, which I know is a giveaway to my age, but oh well).

@Claire, now you did it! I am now singing the Preamble to the Constitution - from School House Rock…...and “Elbow Room”......

Oh boy, you came to the wrong place for sympathy!  Before I met my husband, for some reason he accumulated the whole set of Schoolhouse Rock CDs as well as a contemporary version of the old classics, and now he has my four-year old hooked on them.  So I hear them in my sleep!

@Claire…my husband had a collection of polyester pants with the seam sewn down the front (and he still wears them, and they’re a rainbow of ugly colors….they’re so loud I hear them in my sleep!

No fair.  You guys are having a really silly three way love fest and completely ignoring little old me.  Hilarious.
“We should all be praying for everyone.”
Maybe you could hire some Buddhists to spin prayer wheels for you.
“There is an argument to be made for the pure positive, or pure prayer approach in making a witness to another person.”
I don’t believe there is any such “argument” for prayer.  Prayer is useless.
“the theory is that they can go to hell because no one ever told them they need to change their ways?”
As if there really was a place called “hell”.  Hilarious.
“if someone had not “slapped me silly” with an intellectual 2x4 I would still be an unbeliever.”
Very, very strange.  But every cult member has his reasons.
“There’s no point to challenging a four year old who still believes in Santa.”
There’s not much point in challenging anyone who has been firmly indoctrinated into a religion.  But Mormonism?  Scientology?
“The object is to challenge bad ideas which can lead to bad behaviors.”
You have failed to challenge any “bad ideas”.  You did say “FANTASY IDEOLOGY” but I can’t make any sense out of that nonsense.
“He, and other trolls, tend to bring out my bad side”
Of course.  I have challenged your fundamental beliefs.  You really ought to be angry.
“while their behavior is deplorable”
So, it is fine to use a “2x4” to bring someone to your religion, but it is inappropriate for someone to point out that your belief without evidence is irrational.
“I do think that everything I’ve accused him of was absolutely true”
Riiiight.  You understand me soooo well.  You have walked in my shoes for so many, many microseconds.  What have you accused me of?  Being a “troll”?  Anything else?  Irrational?  Limited vocabulary?  Hilarious.
“you have not sunk to his level in the process”
Oh really?  Perhaps I need to quote the following:
“YOU POST AGITPROP ON BEHALF OF YOUR FANTASY IDEOLOGY DEDICATED TO HATE, DEATH, VIOLENCE AND MURDER.
HENCE EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS A LIE.”
It seems I succeeded in making you angry.  It seems that I would have to go quite a ways to sink to that level.
“just have the same teacher for 2 years?”
Actually, I was able to choose the same English teacher for three straight years in high school.  Wait.  You failed to ignore me!

Kellyann:  well, I can’t top that one, but I can come close.  My husband has a turquoise sweatsuit that I have to beg him not to wear outside of the house.  I acknowledge that it is very comfy, but also quite scary looking.

@Kellyann,
1. You and JD seem to have much in common. - Yes, I agree.  That’s just the point. That’s why I blotted off to him in the first place.  He is repeating the same “senseless babble” I have heard many times.  I guess I cannot say where, as apparently my background also offends you. 
2. And yes it is off-topic, but I am responding to you and Claire. Mainly because you seem to be nice, like JD, I am happy to have the attention. Seems unfair to arbitrarily “go dark” and leave loose ends dangling. 
3. “criticized the monitors” of the blog - No, Kellyann, I did not “criticize” the monitors.  You inferred criticism where none was intended.  Again I apologize for lack of clarity, but I only meant what I wrote, and not what you inferred.  As to the monitors, the website, etc.; there are a number of combox styles.  One of the best offers a minimize option to a thread, allowing others to follow the desired thread. I mentioned the minimize option in my first rant.  The takeaway should be “positive feedback” - i.e. maybe NCR should look at how other websites do it.
4. “veering off-topic” - actually if you check, you will see that my next post after the rant was on the topic. I thanked Claire, and then veered off topic to reply to JD, and then started conversing with you because I think I offended you which was not my intent.  And that’s why I am still here.  There are reasons for that, but when you decided to monitor my comment to JD, I decided to accept your criticism.  You are more familiar with site - and I am a guest to this site for now.  And I largely cannot disagree with your viewpoint.
5. Reading more than 100 comments - ok, so I will break another rule.  I have read many more than 100 comments.  I have visited and left NCR many times over the years.  Though the last was many moons ago b/c I find the combox format annoying.  And I remember JD in particular, posting the same stuff.  The combox forces you to roll and roll and roll to find the thread you are trying to follow.  There are other more appealing formats, and you don’t necessarily have to ban anyone if that’s important.
6. “Ok, we get - you’re not dumb” - Kellyann, I apologize for including the location of the first challenge to my faith in materialism, but the statement had a context. Why do you think I made that point? For all I know you are brain surgeon, and gauging by the posts - many of the comments show indicia of a high education level.  So what?  And it is an exact statement of a stunning experience in my life.  And all the more unusual since the secularists now enforce their agenda in the universities. The point is that challenges can be a good way to convert people, and they can be very unusual.  Is it just possible that the reason I imparted it that it is just the truth? 
7. engineering - So? This would a justifiable comment if the location of my conversion was offered as evidence of superiority or even authority or even maybe “Father knows best.”  But in the context - examples of situations in which people who are challenged experience a conversion as counter examples to people who are love-bombed and experience a conversion. 
8. Claire, Kellyann is right - you do not need to apologize.  You are an excellent poster.
9. Kellyann, my take is that Claire is being nice.
10. Again, Kellyann, I apologize for offending you. But most of the combox’s I post in are on websites where it is nigh impossible to offend - unless you really really mean it - and go out of your way to do so.  You seem intend on giving me an NCR ettiquette bootcamp here - and just to jump the gun I am not trying to be sarcastic.  Good job, drill sergeant!
God Bless

@Claire….we should write our own article, “The Consequences of Poor Wardrobe Choices”  Me: “Men, Dress for Success - Dazzle Your Employer with High Quality Work - Don’t Blind Her with Your Clothing”.  You:  “Men, Comfort is Important, but Keep the Comforter on the Bed - Please Don’t Wear it Around the House.”

Kellyann:  the sad thing is that I’m not exactly a fashion plate (I’m a t-shirt and jeans kind of girl), but when my husband wears that turquoise sweatsuit, by default it makes me feel like the more fashion-conscious member of our household (remember, the other member is a four-year old boy, who as you can imagine doesn’t have the greatest powers of matching clothes).

Topeka:  I share some of your frustrations about this website.  I get that Jennifer has 5 kids and doesn’t have the time to babysit these threads when they get ridiculous.  But it still bothers me that they go unmoderated and turn into a joke.  There’s another NCR blogger who has managed to avoid this;  sometimes she closes comments when they get out of hand.  But then again, closing comments shuts down the rational people as well as the trolls, and that’s not exactly fair either.  So I don’t know what the answer is.

@Claire…My son (10) only dresses properly for school or church. The rest of the time he manages to put on every shirt backward, and forgets his underwear.  My daughter got so used to pjs in and out of the hospital that she thinks nightwear is the height of fashion.  When the neuro-oncologist came in to tell us she had H1N1 (Swine Flu), she couldn’t stop laughing because Tara had on Pig pjs (her favorite animal).  I think we have a fair chance at a fashion article.

@Claire,
Hummm….
1. Oops, my bad.  I take it then, that NCR has no real IT guy behind the scenes?
2. No wonder my comment was a stir.  I doubt a blogger could get NCR to change the website without leading a revolution if there’s nobody at the helm.  Running a big website can equal multiple FTE’s, if the site can’t afford it that makes sense.  But a good IT guy could probably fix the combox.
3. As to monitoring or moderation - that should be automated. That’s why I blocked the rant - that pulls a comment up on their screen.  I’ve also sent email to the webmaster, but it’s like a letter to the editor. ;-)
@All,
4. I wear jeans and tee’s.  No fashion sense at all.  ;-))

Wow, a child who dresses for swine flu!  That’s impressive.  I’m sure some day her day wear will catch up, too.

Topeka:  there might be other moderators here;  I’m not sure.  If there are, it’s pretty inconsistent.  Sometimes a whole string of comments (written by a troll) will get deleted, but others will remain in place.  But if there are moderators, I do know for a fact that each blogger has the capability to also edit and close comments on their own blog posts, because I’ve seen one of them do it (announcing that she’s closing comments).

@IrishEddieOHara (In reply to your first comment on Hell)
You are trying to do the right thing, but through misguided means. I as a Roman Catholic can tell you that it is revolting to have someone shove their own religion down your throat. We as Catholics must be gentle and converse, not forceful and hold debates and arguments. If someone does not want to hear the Good News, ‘wipe the dust from your sandals’ and do not push it. Pray for them, and in time THEY will come to YOU. Over time as religion comes up or you bring it up, ask for their permission to talk about it; they will respect that. St. Augustine’s mother had to pray twenty-five long years to wait for her son to convert. And what happens when we die MUST be preached from the pulpit, but not in a fire and brimstone fashion; Hell must be discussed, and how as merciful as our Lord is, He is also just. The ‘Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska’ is all about how Jesus wants His Divine Mercy taught, too. 
If anyone has anything to say, I am also available via my G-mail address, ahums15@gmail.com

@Claire, thanks for the info. 
@ All, Have a great evening!  God Bless.

“the secularists now enforce their agenda in the universities.”
Hilarious.
“shuts down the rational people as well as the trolls”
Hilarious.  Actually, “shuts down the irrational echo chamber” would be correct.
“I take it then, that NCR has no real IT guy behind the scenes?”
Hilarious.  It’s up to each author to moderate as he chooses.  MS sometimes does delete comments.
“As to monitoring or moderation - that should be automated.”
Hilarious.
“That’s why I blocked the rant - that pulls a comment up on their screen.”
Fail.
“I’ve also sent email to the webmaster”
Hilarious fail.
“I as a Roman Catholic can tell you that it is revolting to have someone shove their own religion down your throat.”
You wouldn’t want to impose your anti-contraception values on other people, would you?
“And what happens when we die MUST be preached from the pulpit”
I give up.  What “happens” when we die?  We stop using food and drink?
“Hell must be discussed”
There is no such place of course.  Nor “heaven”.
“how as merciful as our Lord is, He is also just.”
Riiiiight.
“If anyone has anything to say, I am also available via my G-mail address”
Hilarious.
Every religion is absolutely certain that theirs is the One True Religion.  Insanity.

@JD Hughes
If religion is a concept that you do not wish to speak of, I doubt that the National Catholic Register, America’s most complete Catholic News Source is the right place for you. ;)
You are right in saying that every religion believes that they are the One, True, Religion; if they did not, no one would be apart of it.
What are your beliefs of what happens when we die, or beliefs in general? Or lack of?

Why do you even give this poster the time of day?  Its so ridiculous!  I am one of the most prolife people you will ever meet,  but these articles are wearing so thin.  Please people!!!  Work at birthright and help the pregnant women that don’t choose abortions,  and quit focusing on these ridiculous viewpoints from ignorant people!  Its so tiresome…...

Margaret, the last post was three days ago - you brought it back up.  If you’re so tired, perhaps a little sleep will help.

“What are your beliefs of what happens when we die, or beliefs in general? Or lack of?”
Yes, lack of.  Atheist is negative.  I do not accept that there is any “evidence” for any “gods”, “miracles”, or the “supernatural”.  There is no “life after death”.  There is no “heaven” or “hell”.  You have no convincing evidence.  Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Here is a post that has a lot of good comments:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/09/an-attempt-to-explain-christianity-to-atheists-in-a-manner-that-might-not-freak-them-out.html
Bottom line - the atheist commenters are clear that “suffering is not an argument” and “you have no evidence”.

It never ceases to amaze me how completely fallen people who embrace the supposedly ‘progressive’ parts of our society really are. Sick and disturbing, but these people who see pregnancy as something as terrible as a child drowning to death probably think its hilarious.