Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk during an interview at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary in Yonkers, N.Y.
– Mariangeles Burger
There’s been encouraging — sometimes tantalizing — news in recent years about the growing potential for Catholic-Orthodox unification. Pope Benedict XVI is said to be viewed more favorably by the Orthodox than his predecessor. The Catholic Archbishop of Moscow exclaimed in 2009 that unity with the Orthodox could be achieved “within months.” And the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation issued a document last October that envisions practical steps each Church can begin taking to begin the process of reunification.
But Russian Orthodox Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev is a lot more cautious about any predictions of imminent unity between East and West. Archbishop Hilarion heads the Moscow Patriarchate’s Department of External Church Relations, a position that was held by now-Patriarch Kirill before Patriarch Alexei died in 2008.
At 44, Hilarion has experienced a meteoric rise in the hierarchy of the Orthodox Church. A brilliant theologian and author, he was elected bishop at age 35, has served as bishop of Vienna and head of the Representation of the Russian Orthodox Church to the European Institutions in Brussels. He is deeply involved in ecumenical dialogues with the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.
He’s also an accomplished composer and is in New York for the U.S. English-language premiere of his St. Matthew Passion oratorio this evening. He also delivered the annual Father Alexander Schmemann lecture at St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary in Yonkers, N.Y., on Saturday, where he spoke about the meaning of icons in the Orthodox Church.
Thanks to Father John Behr and Deborah Belonick of St. Vladimir’s, I was able to sit down with Archbishop Hilarion for a chat after the lecture. Here’s a transcript of our conversation.
How important is Christian unity to the Orthodox Church?
The notion of Christian unity is essentially linked to the last words of Jesus Christ, which he pronounced at the Last Supper and, notably, those which were addressed to his father, when he preached about the unity of his disciples. It is a tragedy that Christ’s disciples throughout the world were unable to preserve this unity and that many schisms and divisions arose in the Church, and the call to Christian unity is the ultimate goal of our exposure to inter-Christian activities and to various dialogues which we lead with the Roman Catholic Church and with other Christian traditions.
So I think for an Orthodox Christian, it is essential to participate in inter-Christian exchanges in order to bring different Christian traditions closer to mutual understanding in order to overcome centuries of prejudices with the ultimate goal of the restoration of the full Eucharistic communion between various Christian denominations.
Of course, the Orthodox and the Catholic are the closest ones. We have certain differences in dogma, certain differences in ecclesiology, but we have the same teaching on the apostolic succession of the hierarchy, on the sacraments and on the Church in general.
Therefore, though there are obstacles to unity, they are, I believe, in no way insurmountable.
What in the Orthodox view constitutes full Christian unity? What does it look like?
Full Christian unity is the Eucharistic communion. We do not need to reshape our Church administration, our local traditions. We can live with our differences within one Church, participating from one bread and one cup. We need, however, to rediscover what united us and what brought us to disunity, particularly in the 11th century.
So the basis for the restoration of the full communion would be, I believe, the faith of the Church east and west in the first millennium.
And you are quite involved in these talks personally.
Yes.
Has Catholic-Orthodox unity become more of a possibility in recent years? If so, since when, or because of what?
I think certain feasible positive changes came with the beginning of the pontificate of Benedict XVI. He is a man of the Church. He is very traditional in his understanding of the dogma and of morality and he is very close to the Orthodox Church. He highly respects Orthodox traditions. He knows Orthodox theology, and as he indicated in his latest book, Orthodox concerns are very close to his heart. He speaks very highly about the Ecumenical Patriarch (Bartholomew I). He speaks very highly and also very personally about his encounters with the current Patriarch of Moscow, Kirill. And it is clear that, for him, the relationship with the Orthodox Church is one of the primary tasks on his agenda.
Do you think complete union between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches is a possibility in our lifetime? What do you think would have to happen before it could come about?
I would respond by quoting the Pope: it depends on how long we will live. But I believe that the Eucharistic unity between the Orthodox and the Catholics is not something easily achievable within a few years because even if we look at our theological dialogue, it goes very slowly, and we sometimes are unable to solve even rather insignificant problems which existed in the past for many years.
So we should not anticipate that there will be major breakthroughs in just a few years time. But we should be hopeful, and, what is most important, we should work. We should be honest towards each other. We should not hide our differences. We should discuss them openly.
But I also believe that, without aspiring that solving all theological problems that exist between the Orthodox and the Catholics we can learn how to work together, how to act together. And without being one Church administratively we can act as members of one Christian body.
This is what I call a strategic alliance between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. This alliance is necessary in order for us to learn how to work together, because the challenges we are facing are the same. One of the challenges is how to re-Christianize a de-Christianized world. This is what Pope Benedict XVI speaks about very often. In particular he speaks about the New Evangelization of Europe. I believe that this is a huge missionary task and even such a grand Church as the Catholic Church cannot accomplish this task alone. And the closest allies for it would be the Orthodox Church. I believe we can do many things together; we can face modern changes together, even without being one Church, even without having full Eucharistic communion.
How would you describe recent dialogue on the issue of primacy? What is each side saying? Has either side shown any sign of possibly changing?
Well, Pope John Paul II called on everybody, particularly on the Orthodox to express their understanding of primacy.
In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint.
Yes. I believe we the Orthodox are ourselves not altogether clear about what we mean by primacy and how this primacy should be exercised. We have, for example, certain differences between the primacy as it is understood by the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the primacy as it is understood by the Patriarchate of Moscow.
In any case, we do not believe that there could be a bishop above all other bishops whose decisions would be binding for the entire Church. We believe that the bishop of Rome in the first Millennium was obviously first in honor but he was first among equals. He did not have direct jurisdiction, for example, over the East. Therefore, when we come to the discussion of the primacy we would argue that the universal jurisdiction of the Pope is something that didn’t exist in the first Millennium and that if we restore, for example, Eucharistic communion, we would accept his role as first among equals but not as the universal bishop
So what has some of the dialogue been like in recent months? There’s been a lot of talk about breakthroughs and being on the verge of unity.
I believe that when some people talk about breakthroughs, it was a wishful thinking rather than anything close to reality. We are still at a rather early stage of the discussions. We still discuss the role of the bishop of Rome in the first millennium, and even on this issue we see clear differences between the Orthodox and the Catholics. If we come to the discussion of the second millennium, the differences will become much more obvious. Therefore we should not pretend that we are close to solving this problem.
I think, however, that we should discuss it honestly; we should describe the differences in our positions, and we should see what would be the way out. For us, as I said, the way out would be the return to what we had in the first millennium.
Would you tell me about your background: where you are from originally, what was your family like when you were growing up, what kind of family you come from.
It would be a long story. I wonder whether I should start telling you this story.
I was born in Moscow. I studied music for many years. Then I became a monk in a small monastery in Lithuania. I spent five years there. I did my doctorate at Oxford. And then I became a bishop and served in Austria and Hungary as a Russian Orthodox bishop. And when Metropolitan Kirill became Patriarch Kirill, I inherited his former chair as president of the Department of Foreign Relations.
This is to make a long story short.
How did you discover that you had a vocation to the priesthood?
I cannot quite tell you how I discovered it but I can tell you when I discovered it. It was approximately at the age of 15 when I realized that I really wanted to serve the Church and serve as a priest. For some preceding years, as I was studying music, the choice which I had to make for myself was whether to become a professional musician or to serve the Church. I was even thinking about combining the two by, for example, becoming the choir master.
At the end I decided that I wanted to serve the Church in the full sense, to serve at the altar, i.e., to become a priest. And this was the inner voice that was repeatedly telling me this, and this is what we call a vocation.
How do you find time to write music?
I no longer have time to write music. I didn’t even have it before, but when I was a bishop in Austria, I could somehow organize my agenda in order to have some minutes to write music, but very often I did it on a plane or in the waiting area of an airport. For example, some of the pieces from St. Matthew Passion were composed literally on a plane.

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Thank you for sharing this article. What an amazing achievement it would be if the two largest bodies of the Church could come to organic unity and settle the major differences that have divided them. What a witness it would be to the power of God and the reality of the Church as the body of Christ.
Indeed, a miracle it would be. Of course, such a miracle will require humility and submission on both sides… neither of which are hallmark strengths of Rome nor the eastern Patriarchs.
Lord, have mercy on us, and grant us that which we are not capable of working on our own.
Even before the Great Schism the Latin West and the Greek East were not in agreement. They used different liturgies, interpreted Plato and Aristotle differently, read the Bible in different languages, using different versions, and generally regarded each other with suspicion. Nothing has changed.
I find interesting that he returned, various times, to the Church of the first millennium. He clearly believes that the understanding of the unified Church at that time wrt to papal primacy was different in the west than it is now.
As an orthodox christian monk, I pray daily for the unity of God’s holy churches, but it’s been clear to me for a long time now that the orthodox understanding of things like ‘apostolic succession’ is very different from that of the RCC. The venerable church of Rome enjoyed primacy in protochristian times for two reasons: it was the capital city of the empire, and it is the only local church founded by TWO apostles, Sts Peter and Paul. Their dual but equal veneration is demonstrated by the preservation of their relics together at St John Lateran (the roman pope’s cathedral) and by the their dual tutelary statues in front of the vatican basilica of St Peter. As we find in the historical record (Eusebios, among others)St Linus was the first bishop of Rome ‘after the apostles’—it’s clear that St Peter and St Paul were apostles, not bishops. All subsequent bishops of Rome are therefore successors of St Linus, NOT of St Peter. This is an important point, since much of the roman pope’s more modernly ascribed cachet is derived directly from the mistaken idea that St Peter was the first bishop of the city, and that Benedict 16, for instance, is the successor of St Peter; he is not. The acknowledgement of this historical fact by the RCC would allow us all, roman catholic and orthodox Christians alike, to make some serious progress in restoring communion among the churches.
Unity is good among Christians. However, not at the cost of the distinctive character of the traditions represented.
There will be unity of a superficial kind, I believe. Just as there will be some sort of global governance. Still, the differences are deep and not easily dismissed. Just as one world government must ignore or repress tribal and micro differences.
I am not a scholar in matters of ecclesiology and Church history but it is my understanding that the Apostles were the leaders of the Christian communities where they lived, i.e. their “bishops.” For instance, James was an Apostle and also leader (bishop) of Jerusalem. Mark was the same in Alexandria, as I understand it. Linus succeeded Peter in Rome. There was no other leader or episkopos of the Christian community in Rome beside Peter while he was alive.
They were first called “Christians” in Antioch and that church had many Apostles associated with it: Paul and Barnabus.
In response to the comments posted by ‘Arnold’, I’d insist once again that history is our best resource here, especially ecclesial history. The charism of the twelve apostles was to ‘go forth and preach’. Not one of the twelve is reliably attested as serving as a bishop, since the apostles appointed bishops and moved on. Once they left Jerusalem after Pentecost, they generally had no permanent place of residence. John, son of Zebedee and Salome and brother of James might be an exception, since it’s recorded that—once the jewish persecution of Christians began around AD 60, he took the holy virgin Mary, the mother given him by Christ our Lord on the cross, to Ephesus where he eventually died after (we think) returning from Patmos. OTOH, James, Brother of the Lord, was NOT one of the twelve apostles but one of the seventy disciples. It appears that he was the son of St Joseph, the foster father of our Lord, by his previous marriage; Joseph had been widowed and in his old age was blessed by God to protect the holy virgin Mary as her putative husband. St John Mark was St Peter’s traveling companion and secretary, and—apparently after St Peter went into western Europe—preached the Gospel in Egypt and became the first bishop of Alexandria. Once again, he was NOT one of the twelve, so he could stay there as a bishop. St Mark, who is (perhaps with a bit of exaggeration) credited with composing the egyptian eucharistic liturgy)was succeeded by St Amianos as the second bishop of Alexandria. There are precious few details available in the historical record to attest St Peter’s activities in Rome, but it seems certain that he died there, crucified upside down. That he was NOT the first bishop of Rome is amply attested in the most ancient roman liturgical and architectural evidence, which make it clear that Sts Peter and Paul are regarded as the completely equal cofounders of the church there. THEY, together, seem to have appointed St Linus as the first bishop of the city. Neither St Peter nor St Paul got to move on after that, since they both were executed for being christian believers and leaders of a community accused (by their contemporary roman standards) of crimes against the state—much like 20th-century Russia. In any event, St Linus was the first bishop of the roman capital city, and Benedict 16 is the successor of St Linus, NOT of St Peter. IT’S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE GET THIS—the we can talk seriously about roman papal primacy in our own time. Alice Linsley’s comment is unhelpful, since—although it’s recorded that St Peter established the church at Antioch, it’s also recorded that St Euodios was its first bishop, soon to be succeeded by the holy martyrs Ignatius and Polykarpos.
Thanks for sharing this truly wonderful article. What a great time to be alive - even with our many differences. What I took away from this article was the spirit of honesty in dialogue. In addition, I was encouraged by the part about eucharistic unity (this may actually get done in the next 15-20 years). All of us (Catholics) know there are many differences but I am reminded that nothing is beyond God. So, to give up and give into pessimism is just something I am unable and unwilling to do. Thanks be to God for Pope Benedict XVI.
In response to Monk James Silver,
I certainly agree that history is our best resource, but did not St. John Chrysostom, in Homily X on 2nd Timothy, refer to Linus as “second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter?”
In the 4th century bishop and first reknowned church historian, Eusebius, you do not have to go far to receive certain details that are very interesting - st mark in alexandria is described as having received orders from peter in rome. much later but equally interesting is the attitude of the emperor justinian, who in his letters to the pope describe once more a universality not only of honour, but of jurisdiction. maximos the confessor repeats the same attitude as justinian. the pope in rome is referred not only as peter but as `Rock-Foundation`` upon which the Church is firmly built.
I could go on and on. Go to the Catholic Answer man, Dave Armstrong, and you will see what I learned just by going through the, not only latin but the greek fathers as well, hundreds and hundreds of occasions in which the fathers describe the pope of rome as having been given the keys of the chief steward, and jurisdiction is many times mentioned.
There was really no problem until Photios. Fr Adrienne Fortescue, shows that even Photios immediate few predecessors all displayed the unmistakable consciousness of Catholics. There was no question, even in the Imperial household in Constantinople, of who embodied the visible head of the visible body. But in Photios, who became Patriarch through the wrongful dismissal of his immediate predecessor (who had witheld communion from the uncle-regent of the emperor because of the gross crime of incest!), was embodied false charges against the theology and accustomed practises in Latin Christendom, such as use of the wafer as the sacred host, saturday fasting differences, etc etc. But if you read Photios`letter to the holy father, you will find an attitude that is throughout impertinent and disrespectful to the first bishop and high priest of Christendom. Without establishing any proof he calls the holy father an heretic, and the more you read the more you sense the spirit of schism. It is as if you could hear the swearing mouth of martin luther railing against the Pope. This stance of Photios was remembered in the east, and instead of him receiving the proper rebuke, he was eventually canonized!
So I wrote this to show that it is really not the case what Monk James Silver has been saying. The Catholic Church has been very very charitable to our Orthodox brethren now for a couple centuries particularly, given that we never mention that - technically - the east is in a state of schism. It is sadly true, and therefore our charity has shown a great deal of patience. If Monk James had not written above what history has shown to be in error, I would have preferred to describe our greek friends as a wife that ran off in the Christian marriage. She is a very beautiful wife, of surpassing prettiness, but sadly she left the side of her husband. Too often she has enjoyed being on her own, except when she looks back and sees the many times that strange men - the Muslims demanded her. She has felt she would rather often have that, than to be with her lawful husband!
It is hard for the combatants in a marriage break-up to reconcile. We must look at doing so by gazing at our Beloved Saviour crucified in front of us to make peace and achieve unity for us and He can lead us. The wife has feared she would not be able to `be herself`and that Rome would, like an over-bearing husband, try to make her into his style of doing everything. In the modern world, that fear is a little over-done - the Eastern Catholics are not having any problems in expressing themselves or their theology in an Orthodox fashion. Fr Fortescue suggests that there was jealousy in her rebellion, and in even her rise from an obscure diocese in the beginning. I do believe that by now, in this millenium, there is no longer any justification for her remaining, again - technically - in schism. We are talking about `my wife`- my other half! The Àpple of my eyes! Let Love - the precious Love of Christ bring about reconciliation and healing!!
Epi-skopos means “over-seer” in Greek and certainly the apostles were epi-skopos of the Church, or Bishops, while they lived. To say that there were no bishops in the Church until after the apostles were all dead, or that there is no essential link and organic unity between the offices of apostles and bishop is to deny to the entire Church, East and West, that the bishops are the direct descendants by the laying on of hands, of the apostles, and to deny the presence on earth of any apostolic authority whatever, which contradicts Our Lord’s Promise that He would be always with us, even to the end of the world, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. To deny that the apostles were bishops, is to claim that Christianity was dead by 100 AD, which clearly is not true. Moreover, without exception, those Christians who deny the primacy of the pope when he speaks ex cathedra have all, always, without exception ultimately submitted to the authority of the secular state within the nations where they have a presence. It is a question for Russians, for example, concretely as to whom do you want to be ultimate head of the Orthodox Church in Russia: Benedict XVI or Putin. Put in that stark way—and which is the underlying truth of the matter—it is clear that the secular state must not have, and cannot have, ultimate authority over the Church. Yet the history of Orthodoxy since Photius shows the Orthodox as generally only to willing to submit to the “Emperor” rather than to the Bishop of Rome when he speaks as Pope of the whole Church. And that reveals a profound lack of faith, hope and charity among the Orthodox. In fact, compared to the West, there are proportionately only very few Orthodox saint-martyrs who have been willing to resist the secular state to the point of shedding their blood.
T
Let us reflect on the moral philosophy of unity: In union there is strength . But the strength of the union will depend upon the strength of the unit. It has always been difficult to organize common poverty into common wealth. Death has never organized into life, nor darkness into light, nor stupidity into brilliancy. There are some men who don’t enthuse. And ome things which wont’t evolve .Ten fools can never be organized into one philosopher. Ten idiots will not furnish brain matter sufficient for one bright intellect. Onevthousand cords make a cable, but one thousand circles of mist make a fog bank. Think independently , compromise on minor points, but unite and fight for the big things in life.
Each group would hane to sincerely focus on these character building ( character) : courage, dependability, discretion,enthusiasm, honesty, justice, kindness, loyalty,prudence,sincerity, steadfastness,truthfulness.
Culture aspect: Intellectual, moral and physical culture,affability,graciousness,kindly,considerations,politeness,refinement of manners and taste,self - discipline , sense of the fitness of things,unselfishness
Peace to all !!!!!!
Let us reflect on the moral philosophy of unity: In union there is strength . But the strength of the union will depend upon the strength of the unit. It has always been difficult to organize common poverty into common wealth. Death has never organized into life, nor darkness into light, nor stupidity into brilliancy. There are some men who don’t enthuse. And ome things which wont’t evolve .Ten fools can never be organized into one philosopher. Ten idiots will not furnish brain matter sufficient for one bright intellect. Onevthousand cords make a cable, but one thousand circles of mist make a fog bank. Think independently , compromise on minor points, but unite and fight for the big things in life.
Each group would hane to sincerely focus on these character building ( character) : courage, dependability, discretion,enthusiasm, honesty, justice, kindness, loyalty,prudence,sincerity, steadfastness,truthfulness.
Culture aspect: Intellectual, moral and physical culture,affability,graciousness,kindly,considerations,politeness,refinement of manners and taste,self - discipline , sense of the fitness of things,unselfishness
Peace to all !!!!!!
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