In his book Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky taught revolutionaries to “cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within.” To revolutionize the non-negotiable Catholic teaching against same-sex “marriage” and civil unions, activists are advancing the cause with organizations such as “Catholics for Equality” and “Catholics for Marriage Equality” — just as organizations such as “Catholics for Choice” have long promoted abortion, artificial contraception and sterilization.
One activist who opposes Catholic teaching on same-sex “marriage” infiltrated a marriage educational conference this summer and criticized it in his blog.
Carlos Maza applied for and won a scholarship to attend the weeklong “It Takes a Family to Raise a Village” conference in San Diego, where students learn the value of marriage between one man and one woman. The annual summer conference is sponsored by the Ruth Institute, a project of the National Organization for Marriage (NOM).
“I saw my application as more of a joke than anything else,” Maza wrote on his Aug. 28 blog about the conference. “So when I got a ‘Congratulations’ email at the end of July informing me that I’d been accepted into ITAF, I wasn’t sure how to react.”
After accepting the invitation, Maza pretended he was a heterosexual with a girlfriend and an interest in marriage. Unbeknownst to the program lecturers and his fellow students, Maza is a homosexual and a homosexual-rights blogger.
In a blog post that criticized the work of “It Takes a Family to Raise a Village,” Maza spoke of a lecture by Bill Duncan, an adjunct law professor at Brigham Young University and founder of the Marriage Law Foundation.
“His talk — ‘Marriage and the Law’ — attempted to establish a legal case for barring same-sex couples from marrying,” Maza wrote. “The speech was basically a rehashing of NOM’s list of pre-approved marriage talking points: Marriage is about procreation; marriage equality would redefine the institution of marriage for everyone; mothers and fathers aren’t optional, etc.”
Maza characterized Duncan’s talk as “anti-equality.” He documented no anti-homosexual comments from the conference, but concluded it was “one of the most disturbing and overtly homophobic experiences of my life.”
Duncan, for his part, told the Register that he wasn’t surprised that someone working for same-sex “marriage” would infiltrate a marriage conference.
“You’re talking about a by-any-means-necessary movement,” Duncan said. “Anything to push this forward is worth doing if you believe same-sex ‘marriage’ is the next important accomplishment of the cultural revolution.”
Duncan said that orchestrating confusion is a more common tactic among same-sex “marriage” activists.
“Marriage and religion are tied together,” said Duncan, a Mormon. “Nearly all major religions have similar teachings on marriage. It is an institution of a man and a woman. So, if these activists can make it look like the position of religions is changing in regard to marriage, perhaps the courts and legislatures will seize on this and say that religious groups are all over the map on the issue. If they can do that, they can undo thousands of years of moral tradition.”
Other pro-homosexual-rights activists are working at self-described Catholic organizations that support and lobby for same-sex civil unions and “marriage.”
Catholic teaching does not allow for same-sex civil unions or same-sex “marriage.”
The Catechism states: “The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament” (1601).
The Catechism goes on to state, “The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution, despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures and spiritual attitudes” (1603).
That doesn’t stop Father Joseph Palacios from working for “gay marriage” throughout the country, as foundation director and founding board member of Catholics for Equality.
“I’m a gay man and a celibate gay priest,” said Father Palacios, who is on inactive status at the request of Los Angeles Archbishop José Gomez.
Though his organization begins with “Catholics,” Father Palacios is quick to point out that he does not represent himself as a priest while working for same-sex “marriage.” He claims a high level of respect for Archbishop Gomez, however.
“My inactive status was mutually agreed to during a meeting with Archbishop Gomez in June of this year,” Father Palacios told the Register. “We agreed that I would stay on inactive status as long as I am politically active.”
In a statement issued to the Register, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles elaborated on the status of Father Palacios.
“He is on inactive leave without faculties. He should not be wearing a Roman collar, should not be celebrating Mass, nor may he present himself as a priest in public,” explained Tod Tamberg, director of media relations for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.
Though Father Palacios is an inactive priest of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, he teaches Latin American Studies at Georgetown University, a Jesuit institution in the Archdiocese of Washington. Cardinal Donald Wuerl, archbishop of Washington, has stated publicly that Catholics for Equality is not a legitimate Catholic organization.
According to Canon 216 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, “The Church encourages the Christian faithful to promote or sustain a variety of apostolic undertakings but, nevertheless, prohibits any such undertaking from claiming the name ‘Catholic’ without the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority [the local bishop].”
Father Palacios’ critics say an organization named “Catholics for Equality” could lead poorly catechized Catholics to assume that Catholic teaching allows for same-sex “marriage.”
“There are plenty of groups willing to use Catholic identity in order to confuse Catholics,” said Thomas Peters, a Catholic and the cultural director at National Organization for Marriage. “It can be harmful for Catholics who may already be looking for a way to vote against Church teaching.”
Peters said Catholics for Equality is the most organized and influential pro-homosexual “marriage” organization that identifies as “Catholic.” Other notable players include: New Ways Ministry (“a gay-positive ministry of advocacy and justice for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Catholics”), Call to Action (“Catholics working together for justice and equality”) and Catholics for Marriage Equality (“Catholics promoting the freedom for all loving couples to be included in civil marriage”).
Peters said countless small organizations of self-identified Catholics can be found promoting same-sex “marriage” throughout the country, but most are less influential than Catholics for Equality.
The Catholics for Equality website lists Aniello Alioto as a “founding board member.” Alioto is also the political director of ProgressNow, an organization credited by the book The Blueprint: How Democrats Won Colorado (and Why Republicans Everywhere Should Care) with engineering a successful pro-homosexual political coup in the Mile High State.
ProgressNow’s victories, as explained by the book, have hinged on funding by billionaire Pat Stryker, a homosexual-rights activist, and other wealthy business leaders in the “marriage equality” movement, including Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo., the founder of ProFlowers; Tim Gill, the founder of Quark; and Rutt Bridges, an oilman and chairman of Quest Capital.
November ballots will contain measures pertaining to same-sex “marriage” in Minnesota, Maryland, Maine and Washington state. A variety of organizations with “Catholic” on their letterheads seek to influence elections in favor of same-sex “marriage.”
“Much more than in the other states, Minnesota activists have developed a Catholic-dissent mechanism in an effort to defeat a ballot measure to forbid ‘gay marriage,’” Peters said. “There are a lot of pro-homosexual ‘marriage’ bloggers in Minnesota who work on this full time.”
A pivotal moment for Minnesota’s ballot measure supporting true marriage came on June 10, when Benedictine Father Bob Pierson of Edina, Minn., addressed about 200 people gathered for an event sponsored by Catholics for Marriage Equality.
“My conscience tells me to vote No on the amendment,” said Father Pierson, who self-describes as “openly gay.” “In fact, I believe the Church does not have the right to force its moral teaching on others outside the fold.
“Too many of us have been taught to think of God in terms of God’s judgment, rather than God’s tremendous love and mercy. I believe this amendment violates an important principle in Catholic teaching and that as Catholics we can vote No.”
Father Pierson declined to answer questions for the Register, saying only: “I’ve been asked by my abbot not to speak with reporters.”
Father Pierson’s abbot, Father John Klassen, did not return a message left by the Register.
Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, Tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstance can they be approved” (Catechism, 2357).
“The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity,” the Catechism goes on to state. “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition” (2358).
Robert George, a professor of jurisprudence at Princeton University, who has advised student groups seeking to advance awareness of Catholic and natural-law teaching, agrees that groups such as Catholics for Equality are able to confuse those who are not well-grounded in Church teaching. But he’s not too worried.
“On the surface, it seems there may be no better way to undercut the Catholic teaching on conjugal marriage than to purport to represent the Catholic point of view,” George said.
“But our experience with Catholics for Free Choice (a pro-abortion organization), which has been lavishly funded by organizations on the left, has shown that while this tactic is capable of doing some harm, most Catholics are not confused or tricked, and they know that these types of groups are proclaiming teachings that are deeply contrary to the teachings of the Church.”
George hopes the tactic of promoting Catholic dissent from so-called “Catholic” perspective will only become less effective over time. He believes practicing Catholics are more influenced by bishops and priests than by media reports, activists and lobbyists.
“I’m seeing a rising generation of bishops and clergy who are strong and faithful to Church teachings,” George said. “I’m also seeing a rising tide of Catholic intellectuals who are better informed than they were at the dawn of the sexual revolution, when they had not been challenged like this, and they took for granted that Catholics understood and would obey Church teachings. They are much better prepared today. I am even seeing this more in my students.”
Wayne Laugesen writes from Colorado.
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Although it is impossible to prevent assaults on the church from without, it is quite doable to prevent such attacks from within, but for the last half century the church has not had the will to do much about it. Every one of these people should be put on notice by their local bishop and given an opportunity to explain themselves. If they are found to be promoting heresy or dissent, they should be given an opportunity to recant publicly. If they refuse, they should be excommunicated—period. No longer would they be able to call themselves Catholics for this or Catholics for that without flat out lying since they wouldn’t be Catholics anymore. A witch hunt? No. Another inquisition? No. Nobody gets hurt. Nobody is persecuted. No blood is spilled. Nobody loses their home or their job. No one is singled out because of hearsay or the report of a jealous neighbor. Only those who publicly persist in their dissent are targeted and penalized with excommunication. That is what St. Paul would have done (1 Cor. 5:2). That is also what Jesus commanded his disciples to do (Matt 18:17).
Too bad Maza didn’t learn anything while he was there. Open mind? Yeah, whatever.
these deviates who infiltrated the Catholic Church from the inside, with the sole purpose of destroying the Catholic Church from the inside, gay priests mocking the purity of the Catholic Church, how long is God going to let this go on….and a lot of this perversity goes right to Rome with this “get along to get along” mentality…..instead of condeming these depraved perverts from the start, the Church leaves these pillars of excrement alone, spreading their agenda of eternal darkness throughout the Church…40 plus years of pro-choice catholics inside the Church also goes left unchecked, and this is the Church we have…a sewerhole of depravity….God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah for this filth, and the hand of Gods Justice will come down upon our country and the world .. please dear God let it start today
Adamantiu has a great point. But I will go one further. According to the Bible and Church teaching, Bishops not only should but are REQUIRED to excommunicate Catholics that teach against Catholic teaching. Thankfully, it appears that Pope Benedict and the Bishops being placed today seem to be taking much tougher stands on Catholic teaching. I have even read about Bishops that are threatening excommunication to members of some groups. These people may not realize they have become the tools of Satan but as our spiritual parents, our Bishops need to discipline their children. Thankfully, it appears that Pope Benedict any many of the recently appointed Bishops are taking a much stronger stand against these Heretics.
It is more sneaky for someone to claim to be a Catholic, rejecting Jesus through the rejection of teachings of pope and bishops in union to him -Luke 10:16)than for one to openly reject Church teachings. The latter expresses his erroneous opinion at least truthfully, while the former adds deception to the error
Time to whip out the canon law, me thinks. Seriously, these people need to be sued! Canon law states: “The Church encourages the Christian faithful to promote or sustain a variety of apostolic undertakings but, nevertheless, prohibits any such undertaking from claiming the name Catholic without the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority (see canon 216 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law).”
Yes from within and without. But so many parishes unknowingly FUND this sort of heresy by supporting CCHD, which funds Alinsky-style community organizing for all kinds of pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-redistribution of wealth through Living Wage advocacies, pro-government rescue of every tiny crisis from city, country, state, and federal problems that ignore “subsidiarity.” If you have “listening sessions” or training to “help the poor” or inter-faith city groups, then you’d better take a closer look, because most likely, YOUR PARISH is putting one percent of their annual budget toward one of these groups. Which means YOUR TITHES are funding left wing politics, including pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage. People are fighting this all across the country, but the bishops MUST get on board with the laity on this. Right now they are either on-board with left-wing politics, blinded by their own staff (happens frequently), or they have no idea what community organizing is other than “a way to help the poor.” A great source of information: http://www.johntwo24-25.net
Don’t forget to pray for all priests!
Today, it seems truthful words are frequently called “intolerant” and compromise is taken as the highest honor - while truth is “dissed” as if it were relative. Politicians laud unnatural and confusing concepts like gay “marriage” and are using scare tactics to convince women they will lose the right to commit abortion and the “freedom” to have sex without its natural consequence if their opponents win the election.
Well, there are certain things that just grate on our intelligence, and that is a sign that something’s awry. We have an innate conscience that, if it is pushed into some warped form contrary to nature, rebels. Yes, some things are true and some are not. Some things are right and some are wrong. Compromise with the truth yields untruth, and that’s what we see today in many government actions and policies. It’s what we are being provoked into doing by people who have an ax to grind or money to make. Changing the argument using the words “abortion and contraception” to the pablum term “women’s health issues” is now the tactic being used to mask the intent. There are declining numbers of women calling themselves “pro-choice”.
Really, now. Are 2 things that are not the same really the same? Is marriage as we know it warpable? Are abortion and sexual promiscuity really desirable? Affecting a biased definition on something proven to be right perverts it! Some may even force themselves to believe in the power of a newly-coined “morality” (unproven, untrue, a compromise) and set about condoning it throughout the world. Practicing something enough times (like drinking, having sex with anyone you want, etc.) helps convince us these things are right. Likewise, how many times did Hitler diss Jews before his actions were deemed “right”? He had a lot of blind followers, too.
Let’s strive to find the truth, and practice it. Practicing illusions of reality just don’t make it. In 20 years time, will you be proud you supported issues you can’t even believe in your heart?
In view of the present unprecedented attempt to redefine marriage, my 3 recent articles on the nature of marriage, the serious psychological risks to children from same sex unions and adoption and same sex parenting may be helpful in defending marriage and thereby protecting children.
Marriage, essentially
http://www.mercatornet.com/article/view/marriage_essentially
The Risks to Children from Same Sex Parenting
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/no_more_threats_please_lets_try_logic
The Redefinition of Marriage and Adopted Children
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/adoption_conundrums?utm_source=twitterfee ...
There will, sadly, always be Judases within the Church who betray their Lord.
I particularly enjoyed the gay infiltrators comments that there was nothing anti gay, but clearly the event was against homosexuals and was horrible. Yes, I’m paraphrasing, but the gay fella brings up a few good points.
First, I refuse to accept these people or open my mind up to their values. But they MUST accept me and my wants.
Second, encountering a group of loving people who want to understand and grow their marital love and who do NOT mock others to enhance themselves, isn’t good enough. It was still anti me and I’m going to mock them so I feel better about my act of disrspect and injustice. If I imagine they are disrespecting me, then I can rationalize my cruelty in return.
Lastly, they, like all of us seek aged, as it is imprinted in our very being. They want Catholic approval. Catholics want Gods approval. They want to change the rules God set forth as a desperate attempt to gain Gods affection rather than accepting Gods commands in the hope we can grow in faith. We are all sinners and just accept that fact. We can’t stop being sinners simply by declaring nothing is a sin anymore.
They’re looking for legitimacy from a generation their allies (contracepting homosexuals, statists) prevented from even knowing of what family is.
A good read on the topic: http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/0895261448
Take a good walk before you read it though. It’s shocking.
Our Church has, in the United States, an organization which may, with the full power of civil law, sue those groups which misuse the term “Catholic” with an obvious intent to confuse. The United States Council of Catholic Bishops is that organization.
Should the USCCB sue to demand these organizations “cease and desist” it would cause shrieks of criticism from the popular press and our loud-mouthed enemies. It could also cost a significant amount of money because very wealthy minions of evil, eager to support anything which might damage the Church, will pour their money into the fight against us.
So? I pray our bishops will act swiftly in this matter.
Dante, I read that book. You’re right. It was shocking but it explains a lot of what’s happening in the church today.
Seems that Apple, Coca Cola, and other organizations are far more willing to fight for their “brand” than the RCC. Given the length of time Catholic has been associated with the RCC, and the clear intent to sow confusion by the usurpers, you would think it would be as close to a slam dunk as you could get. The USCCB should send them a cease and desist.
Friends, I understand the outrage that we true Catholics feel vis-a-vis apostacy within the ranks. However, as worthy as our fight is from the judicial, political, or cultural viewpoints, the real deal is eschatological. More prayer, more faith, more humility, and more coherence is demanded from each us, up to the point of martyrdom if necessary. The script has already been foretold by the Man hanging from the tree: we just ought to live it accordingly.
Maybe the best defense against a same-sex marriage radical is just what we have done for generations: Enjoying our tradional marriages and the families we have been blessed with as a result.
As Adamantius and others suggested, strictness and if necessary excomminication is the only solution . As Cardinal Dolan has said sometime that all these deterioration in faith came on account of long silence from the pulpit for over half a century. Leave alone lay people, even the seminary students were not given lectures on chastity, church teachings on sexual morality for married and unmarried. American Catholic Church is facing the outcome in the propping up of ideology on homosexuality, gay marriage and free sex. It is hightime that who do not believe in the Church teachings leave the Church. Let them clearly understand that morality is not based on votes and no one can tinker with the teachings of Jesus and His Church. We do not want more numbers , we want faithful people only All are weak and commit sins, but the faith that there is nothing called sin cannot be tolerated by the Church. The greatest fun is some anointed priests are driven by devil and propagate devil’s precepts They should first be excommunicated There is no need for extending any concession. Then we will have a strong Church Let us rejoice in the Lord.
The anti-Catholic forces are not afraid to use underhanded tactics to get their way. While I am not endorsing or encouraging that we use the same tactics, we do have to understand that it is past time for us to be on guard to protect ourselves and our church. The calls for “social justice” always make me feel uncomfortable as that can mean anything to anyone. The church treats those who disagree with her with a lot more dignity than they treat us as faithful Catholics. Never in my life as a church going Catholic did I ever hear a hateful word against gay people. Never in my life as a church going Catholic did I ever hear a hateful word against anyone with AIDS or any woman who had had an abortion. When people who are not Catholics, or are lapsed Catholics make assumptions about us when they speak to me I always ask them exactly what they think is going on at church, or at church sponsored events. Just because we do not endorse and celebrate their behavior does not mean that we are preaching hatred for them. We speak of them a lot more kindly than they speak of us.
Their goal is to “orchestrate confusion”? A clear work of the devil.
We have only Obama to blame for this. His administration is doing everything possible to undermine Catholic principles of faith. His ultra left cronies are atempting to foster a nation totally devoid of religon, where Big Brother will take care of us, not God!
Bill Laudeman, Who is going to begin the crusade against the United States Council of Catholic Bishops who mandate sexualized catechetics in the parochial schools? See motherswatch.net on the series, “Growing In Love” that teaches youth beginning in kindergarten that homosexual practices are a personal option and not a sin to avoid. Youth are being used to destroy Catholicism with every dime put into the collection plate supports raising the new barbarians. How long will claimed Catholics tolerate this abuse of our youth? Corruption of youth was once a crime. No longer! Most of the teachers in the parochial schools do not adhere to Catholic principles on contraception, abortion and remarriage.
Just one question: shouldn’t “Father Joseph Palacios’” name be written as just “Joseph Palacios”?
(Because as the article points out: “He is on inactive leave without faculties. He should not be wearing a Roman collar, should not be celebrating Mass, nor may he present himself as a priest in public,”)
Excellent article! Thank you! While this serious Alinsky infiltration is the most recognizable - to “Divide and Conquer” from within and without - it has been underway since the 1920s as revealed in a book sanctioned by Alice Von Hildebrand, “AA-1025,” about the 1,025 radical revolutionary agent to penetrate the Catholic Church by 1930. This revelation was followed by Bella Dodd’s 1950’s confessions to Bishop Sheen, part of which are in “School of Darkness,” as she was converted to Catholicism under Sheen away from her American communist leadership roles. She said, “You won’t recognize America fifty years from now.” She was right. All the infiltration, all of it, stems from atheist radical revolutionaries like Dodd and Alinksy and they boast about their de-Christianizing infiltrations! The first North American samesex couple were Michael Stark and Michael Leshner, who both who fought long and hard to legalize samesex, followed by Barney Frank.
Enough is enough!
I am literally numbed as I read this. How can the Holy See allow such behaviors without the penalty of excommunication?
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” –GK Chesterton
The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatrists, National Association of Social Workers, Child Welfare League of America, North American Council on Adoptable Children have endorsed civil marriage/adoption for same-sex couples because marriage strengthens mental, physical health and longevity of couples, and having two parents (of any gender) provides greater health, legal/financial security for children. Research confirms that children develop perfectly normally. Even the American Academy of Anthropology has issued a policy statement that says access to civil marriage by same-sex couples will not harm our social order. Visit the websites of these non-partisan, national professional and certifying associations for their policy statements.
If we don’t listen to professional experts on national family health and welfare, then we are simply voting our religious beliefs or personal bias into state and federal laws, and harming the families of gay and lesbian couples, especially those with children.
Like the case of Galileo and his heretical heliocentric universe, this case needs some light and truth and fairness.
Nancy, yes, but slowly but surely, they are training our children to believe that they should try the Gay lifestyle. Teachers in some Western countries can now be fired for NOT promoting Gay marriage. They are influencing our children, but not only our children but even some of the clergy and nuns that are teaching our children and leading our parishes. Now one of the largest ‘Gay’ magazines is promoting pedophilia as natural and good. Look how many Catholics today dismiss many Catholic teachings due to the influence of the same media that is pushing the Gay lifestyle. If those Catholics are drawn into mortal sin, they are destined to loose out on everlasting life. So in effect, these people are threatening the very lives of our children. How important is your child’s everlasting life to you?
This is not something to be ignored.
Ah, Nancy and Dante—of course you are right, we always need more prayer, faith, and assuredly more humility . . . but there is a powerful argument that says we must also mitigate against evil, and “secularization” is NOT just a civil irritant. It threatens righteous morality; when the secular world tells us we may not meet our religious obligations, it demands sin ... and that is evil.
I believe there is essentially no difference between some of the “law” demands being made now and the “law” that required first century Christians to sacrifice to Rome’s pagan gods. Difference is, we do NOT have to die in order to resist ... we have to act and vote.
We need to defend the right of Catholic organizations to practice their TRUE Catholic faith. This is why we MUST get involved in politics by voting for candidates who defend traditional one-man-one-woman marriage. For example, Catholic Charities had to get out of the adoption business in Massachusetts and Illinois because they would have been forced to adopt to same-sex partners. In addition, pro-traditional-marriage wedding planners and other businesses have been forced to close in states that recognize same-sex partnerships.
I have no problem with the church not approving of, performing, or recognizing gay marriages. I would be deeply disappointed if it did, and would view it as a morally unreliable religious institution. The question is, however, how far can a religious institution legally enforce its stand on non-adherents on this issue? What’s tricky about it is that unlike murder, lying and adultery, it isn’t specifically mentioned in the 10 commandments, but is listed in Leviticus, alongside orders to stone people for seemingly minor infractions. That, combined with the fact that the majority of gays are born gay and are incapable of faking being straight, it makes it difficult to get worked up about this issue. Why aren’t people equally worked up about divorce, child abuse, all the violence and smut in the media, and other ills? A lot more pain is caused by such things, and yet I see nothing near the outrage by many in the church about them. Again, the church should NEVER be made to recognize, perform, or acknowledge gay marriages, even in terms of its adoption agencies. However, it’s difficult to make the case that our beliefs should be forced on nonbelievers, when legalizing it for them isn’t going to suddenly turn everyone who is heterosexual gay. Our sexual identity is inherent in us, and not something that overturning a law would change.
Tony, are you saying God creates what he abhors??! Are you saying that the practices of homosexuals are natural for some? God says it is an abomination. That settles the issue. It is one of the sins that cries to heaven for vengeance?
Pedophilia is NEVER acceptable.
But I doubt anyone is actually promoting pedophilia.Gay people do not.
The Bible does not address same-sex marriage, but it clearly addresses forcible sex and disrespectful sex.
Lesbians and gays are made from prenatal hormone changes, and time will show all that sexual orientation is benign and innocent.
No child can be induced to be gay or lesbian, just like no child can be induced to be heterosexual. Science will show us that sexual orientation is innocent and innate.
All children need love and support, especially from their families and their faith. What is the Catholic church doing to teach children that they are beloved in God’s eyes if they happen to be lesbian or gay?
They grow up to feel isolated, demoralized, rejected, and have a high rate of suicide for a natural, innocent feature that does no one any harm.
We don’t need that, or want that.
We want children to grow up feeling our love and respect no matter what their orientation is. Lets make this world better for them.
Why aren’t people equally worked up about divorce, child abuse, all the violence and smut in the media, and other ills?
Because there are no Child Abuser Pride parades; because no one is fired from the job for refusing to order the Playboy channel. People ARE being fired from jobs for affirming true marriage and denying false marriage. Charitable institutions are being forced out of good work for not kowtowing to the homosexualist agenda. In one case a former lesbian converted to Christianity had to flee the country with her child because an insane judge awarded custody to her creepy ex-“spouse”. It’s a zero-sum game: for phony marriage to win, true marriage must lose.
True marriage isn’t some arbitrary religious construct. While it has it’s strongest defense in Christianity, it is just as air-tight in reason, history, and simple apprehension. The family precedes the State, and a state that won’t protect the very building block of society has no legitimacy.
I think that most of us here are just as outraged by ‘divorce, child abuse, all the violence and smut in the media, and other ills’. The question is, are there any groups that are trying to make ‘child abuse’ acceptable? Sadly, divorce, violence, and smut are already ‘acceptable’ in our depraved society and even accepted by many Catholics, despite these all being among ‘mortal’ sins. Now society is being forced to accept one more evil. Our children and fellow Catholics watch television with its constant drone of trying to make evil seem acceptable with great success. Now we have one more evil, unless stopped, be added to the list. The other ‘ills’ you mentioned have existed for thousands of years and each one of us becomes ‘used’ to the fact that these things happen. It is like how thousands of people die every year by terrorist attacks, but when it occurs in such a dramatic way as when the twin towers were destroyed, we take notice and everyone gets really worked up.
The question is, how many new evils will we have to deal with in the future? Gay magazines are already trying to make pedophilia acceptable. Soon we will be outraged by this new evil and the media will switch from condemning it to promoting it, just like the homosexual lifestyle. We need to see Satan’s handy work in this, just as in all the evils he tries to seduce us with.
ah Bill Laudeman,
but how soon will it be before we will be first jailed for our faith, then killed. They are already jailing preachers in Canada for speaking out against homosexuality. We don’t see it, but I am afraid we very well may be living in a time similar to that of the early Christians. Satan is smart though, he knows that persecution sometimes makes Christians stronger. The constant societal pressure through the media and individuals is more powerful in bringing down Christian ideals in weak Catholics.
Yes, we must pray, but we also must encourage all our Catholic friends to stay true to the beliefs of the Catholic church, all of them. We can help them build up their armor of faith against the devils attacks.
Yes, Kate O’Hanlan, MD, are so knowledgeable about these things. Like the doctors who told us that we shouldn’t discipline our children because it is psychologically harmful, or the doctors that tell us Coffee is good for you one day but bad for you a month later. History is strewn with the books of these ‘experts’. What about the expert doctors who believed the ‘bleeding’ people was good.
The fact is, when looking at blind studies, children of same sex couples are many times more likely to have problems in life than those of ‘normal’ married couples. There are many reasons including the need of a child to have both a male and a female influence in growing up. The fact that same sex couples rarely stay together longer than four years. There are many others reasons. But obviously you would rather listen to these human ‘experts’ then listen to God who has always proved correct.
“joe”—Wow! You have a profoundly different experience of Catholicism than do I ... those are very broad and terribly troubling accusations you make against our bishops and school teachers; none f which I believe, and I challenge you to prove. Anyone can create a Website and publish anything, true or false, I will look into the one you mention.
Why do you assume it is correct, but condemn the entire council of bishops as “... mandat(ing) sexualized catechetics in the parochial schools.” which is patently incorrect?
If the accusations you make were true, I would have little hope for our Church—but thanks be to God, my daily experience shows me you have been very badly misinformed.
Excellent book on this subject: “Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage” and the Homosexual Movement”
It is available for free download here:
http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/books/defending-a-higher-law-now-available-online.html
Dr. O’Hanlon, you would seem to lack a knowledge of the child development scientific literature on the essential unique role of a mother and a father to the psychological health of a child. I recommend that you review my recent articles on this literature and on the severe harm done to babies who are deliberately deprived of a mother or a father as will occur with the efforts to redefine marriage.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/no_more_threats_please_lets_try_logic
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/adoption_conundrums?utm_source=twitterfee ...
In fact, the deliberate deprivation of what is essential to healthy child development can be properly described as child abuse.
Also, which ones of the authors of these statements (across any of these organizations) is a philosopher? Oh, and by the way, which of the authors are advocates for same-sex “marriage”? Simply do the math and then please retract the adjective “non-partisan” from the post.
Tony, may I recommend my article, “Marriage, essentially” here: http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/marriage_essentially
See if your questions remain after you see the philosophical analysis, with deductive validity, concluding that societal chaos is inevitable as soon as people are indifferent to this issue of same-sex “marriage.”
Also, Tony, don’t you think you should work to protect babies from the severe psychological harm of being deliberately deprived of a mother or a father as will occur if marriage is redefined?
@Kate O’Hanlan, MD
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I’m curious about your statement. “Pedophilia is NEVER acceptable.”
When we talk about homosexual attraction vs homosexual acts, we make a distinction between the desire of some individual(something which they feel) vs. whether they act on them (the sin). I suspect that rule would apply to those people who are attracted to “underage” people vs. those who act on them.
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Also you mention “Lesbians and gays are made from prenatal hormone changes”. But is this proven science or just theory?
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I suspect that sexual attraction is a continuum not an either or proposition and that for people who fall near the middle of that continuum, homosexuality/heterosexuality is clearly a choice not a biological given.
Research published in medical journals in the National Library of Congress, (include Frontiers of Neuroendocrinology April 2011) consitently reveal that variable hormonal levels in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy permanently affect child’s neural circuitry for sexual orientation and gender identity to express on a spectrum between straight and gay, same or opposite gender. A little extra testosterone secreted from the adrenals during early pregnancy affects the baby girls’ brains causing nearly half to be lesbian, a tenth to be transgender. Also, a girl twin baby simply sharing the womb with a boy co-twin, in which some of his testosterone from his amniotic fluid gets into her blood, causes about one fifth of girl co-twins to be lesbian. These girls also have the bone structure and physical coordination of boys, so they are good in sports, and thus the stereotype.
The opposite is also true: a bit less testosterone than usual in a boy’s blood during early pregnancy can make him gay or transgender. If a boy’s mother has delivered many older brothers before him, which caused her to make blocking antibody to his male proteins, resulting in about one fifth of boys with many older brothers being gay. Many of these boys have phonation, gait, physiology and linguistic and visual arts skills slightly more like girls, and thus the stereotype.
Most homosexuals and most heterosexuals believe that they had no choice to be how they are because they were born on the far ends of the spectrum. They can firmly claim they were “born that way.” But, for some straight and gay folks, it WAS and IS definitely a choice for them because they were born closer to the middle of the biological spectrum between straight and gay: they are simply bisexual. Their orientations don’t change from straight to gay when they date different genders, they simply have brain wiring that attracts them to both. All orientations are hard-wired prenatally and none can change it. It is all biological and innocent, and not contagious or changeable.
From the American Psychological Association: homosexuality is a normal sexual orientation; homosexual relationships are normal relationships.
The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Association of Child and Adolescent Psychiatrists, National Association of Social Workers, Child Welfare League of America, North American Council on Adoptable Children have endorsed civil marriage/adoption for same-sex couples because marriage strengthens mental, physical health and longevity of couples, and having two parents (of any gender) provides greater health, legal/financial security for children. Research confirms that children develop perfectly normally. Even the American Academy of Anthropology has issued a policy statement that says access to civil marriage by same-sex couples will not harm our social order.
Visit the websites of these non-partisan, national professional and certifying associations for their policy statements and view their rationales based on published scientific research.
If we don’t listen to professional experts on national family health and welfare, then we are simply voting our religious beliefs or personal bias into state and federal laws, and harming the families of gay and lesbian couples, especially those with children.
Recall what the Catholic Church did to Galileo.
I’d like to know on what grounds the typical defender of homosex draws the line at pedophilia? The only I see holding it together is the phony doctrine of consent.
Dr. O’Hanlan, you speak of love and at the same time you have a decided lack of love showing for the most enduring institution on the planet, the Catholic Church. You have just summarily dismissed about 6.7 billion people. So, you see, you have dichotomized love—-love the growing adolescent with same-sex tendencies and then make subtle and negative comments about all those others who are Catholic. That is not a loving thing to do.
One more point, if I may: You state that the etiology of same-sex attraction is biology. You know as well as I that there is no scientific evidence for that. You have to engage in wishful thinking to make such a statement. To pass it off as established science is a statement you should consider retracting.
Dr. O’Hanlan, I recommend your reviewing the scientific literature on the etiology of same sex attractions in my article, Same Sex Attraction in Youth and their Right to Informed Consent,
http://www.hprweb.com/2012/05/same-sex-attractions-in-youth-and-their-right-to-informed-consent/ .
http://lospequenos.org/PepperIssues/2011/ePepperAug2011.pdf Page 10 talks about New York’s bishops and the vote for homosexual marriage.
@Kate O’Hanlan, MD
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Thanks Kate your reply was helpful and in some ways confirmed my supposition that there is a continuum. I’ve seen this in other men, where some are “ravenously” heterosexual and others really could care less if a woman walked by.
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There is another issue that I am certainly not qualified to tell others how to deal with, but to me it is an obvious fact of observation. Many “gay” people hide their desire for the same sex or lack of desire for the opposite and marry and have children anyway. I cannot prove this with facts but I think given the history of society, it can be assume with some level of confidence.
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Certainly if you accept that a certain number of people will either out of peer pressure or wanting to be “normal” decide to play heterosexual and get married, then you realize this “set” of individuals will increase or decrease with whether society accepts or even “promotes embracing” gay attraction and gay sexual behavior.
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This being the case, the next question is should society embrace gay attraction in individuals and gay sexual behavior. The choice to do so increases the likelihood that more gays will chose to act on that attraction and increases the likelihood that those on the border will choose gay over straight. I would suggest that while many might say there are more gay people than 50 years ago, I might argue there are more people comfortable with choosing to accept being gay, or choosing to be gay when they are “in the middle” physiologically.
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To wrap up then, I see three factors in the decline of western society’s/Christianity’s population numbers: 1) abortion, which is eliminating 1.4 million babies annually in the US alone, 2) Contraception which is eliminating millions of babies being born and delaying the start of families (essentially skipping the birth of every other generation) and finally 3) The acceptance of gay attraction and gay sexual behavior, which is moving the middle of the population into non-procreating relationships.
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I bring these up as the “unintended consequences” of “sexual freedom”. I also would suggest that the reason certain things are a sin as set out by the church is that they run counter to natural law (like: reproduction is the #1 purpose of living organisms) and (not to be cold, but biologically speaking, gay people become dead weight in the reproduction process).
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It is in this context where I wonder how far we can go in accepting homosexual behavior. While I do not want children committing suicide because they feel there is something wrong with them, I also do not want to create so accepting a society that people (in this case I’ll limit this to North American Christians) fail to create, care for and teach the next generation.
Kate O’Hanlan, MD- Are you justifying offending God! Has science proven sexual violent activities that gays practice does not harm individuals and does not heighten the risk to all society to be harmed by these Uncontrolled passions? They Can’t help being violent, you say?
Actually, just what is your pursuit if you don’t give a hang what God commandments? What other sins do you justify? All babies are born with a selfish nature. Are you going to tell parents they must submit to their children’s selfishness? What about the poor robbing banks? Is that OK with you? Are the virtues of of temperance and prudence foolishness to you?
Great thoughts and comments.
Nature makes humans vastly heterosexual, and they procreate and thrive. The few humans born with orientations in the vast minority also deserve happiness. They might be “dead weight” in the Darwinian sense of transmitting the genetic material of both parents, but they do procreate: with children from a prior relationship undertaken while they were desperately trying to NOT be the gay person that they hoped they were not, or with their own eggs, or they adopt, or they marry into a family with children. The gay folks are all raised as presumed heterosexuals, with all the same morals, standards, goals and desires and hopes as everyone else: meaning gays want the American dream of education, family, children, career, retirement security. They can try to suppress their gayness and marry with all the best of intentions, but for most, they must finally become their real selves and live true, and find a same-sex spouse. They still have the same morals, dreams, hopes, standards. And they cannot change, not can they influence anyone else to be gay (unless they already are gay and suppressing). Research confirms that hiding in the “closet” is not psychologically healthy, and that coming out is associated with higher life satisfaction, goal achievement etc. Since acknowledging homosexuals, granting access to civil marriage only provides an equal opportunity for a happy life and does not create any more homosexuals than are existing, it seems to be the best future. An article published in the journal Pediatrics described how the most accepting families have the happiest, most academically successful children.
That is why I am entirely for access to marriage by same-sex couples. They can do what everybody does: “find a person, settle down, if they want they can marry…” that protects their children (who really do grow up normally) and their family integrity and their retirement.
Kate O’Hanlan, MD – The Sacrament of Matrimony is for the procreation and education of children. Homosexual vulgarities are for the prevention of procreation. It is a mortal sin to engage in sexual activities alone or with others outside of the Sacrament. Even in marriage the husband and wife must be ‘open to children’. Homosexual activities are an abomination. Signing a contract to marry will not and never will change Divine Law. Why haven’t you brought forward the studies that homosexuals on the average, die at a much younger age than do heterosexuals? Also, why haven’t you brought forward the studies of the many sex partners homosexuals have in a life time, and their lack of fidelity to a partner? Likewise, why haven’t you brought forward the studies that show that homosexuals are heavily into drugs and alcohol to engage in their insatiable unholy contact-sport-practices? Why haven’t you brought forth the studies that AIDS is 50 times higher in homosexuals? What about the studies of the high rates of suicide with homosexuals? God willed each one of us into existence, Kate O’Hanlan, MD. He lovingly gave us the Commandments in order for us to achieve happiness and to return safely Home to Him if we choose to follow them. It is proven over and over, that when there are deviations from the Ten Commandments, there are always casualties, consequences and loss of natural rights. Your human reasoning is a disaster. Many families will grieve if they follow what you claim is expert advice. Tolerance is not a virtue; tolerance for the homosexual’s activities is not a Christian precept. Yes, we must love those who are challenged with the claimed tendency of homosexuality, just as much as we are to love all people who struggle with vices. Every person has struggles, however, it is in practicing the virtues that we will combat these vices and never should we desire laws that will assist us into damnation for all eternity. That’s what you are proposing, Kate O’Hanlan, MD.
@Kate,
Since for a large number of these people gay sex is a choice, I cannot see condoning that behavior morally. While some may give way to their desires, that does not make the behavior moral.
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While I am not one to tell other people what they can and cannot do legally, I could never support gay marriage.
1) Marriage is a union of a man and a woman to create children, any union (for romantic or sexual reasons) outside of that is not marriage.
2) Benefits for married couples are intended to offset the cost of raising the next generation. While you may argue that gays occasionally adopt or have existing children from previous marriages, I cannot see diverting money or benefits intended for families to gay couples. If equal rights means giving marriage benefits to gay couples then I am not for equal rights any more than I would be for a healthy person to receive disability benefits.
Contrary to Dr. O’Hanlan’s views, the scientific literature demonstrates:
1.No hormonal or genetic factors cause same sex attractions (American Psychological Association statement 2005);
2. Four research studies demonstrate serious psychological conflicts in children raised by same sex parents;
3.Studies that demonstrate the absence in psychological conflicts in children raised by homosexual parents are severely flawed and not reliable;
4.Same sex relationships are highly unstable and associated with high prevalence of abuse;
5.The deliberate deprivation of a mother or father is psychologically harmful to a baby.
These and other studies are available in my article published in Homiletic and Pastoral Review
http://www.hprweb.com/2012/05/same-sex-attractions-in-youth-and-their-right-to-informed-consent/.
Finally, Pope Benedict has written, “…the absence of complimentarity in these unions (same sex) creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that the condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. ”
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, (2003). Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons, n.7. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
I discovered a beautiful prayer and this is only a portion of it:
Sex Is Sacred
It is the source of life, and life is sacred. Life is man’s most precious possession. Why then should not the fountain of life be most highly esteem and reverenced?
Sex channels life from the hands of God to the infant in the crib…..
Sex channeled life from the hands of God to YOU!
No one has ever entered life except through sex.
For the married, Christ wrapped sex in the “wedding garment” of a Sacrament. He did this because the purpose and the proper use of sex are so splendid and noble……
Sex is sacred. It is worth protecting like a pearl of great price….it is not meant to be traded, sold-out, or controlled.
Keep it sacred! Help others sanctify sex!
Hi All,
As the Founder of the Ruth Institute and organizer of the It Takes a Family conference, I am really gratified by this story, and the reactions of most of you here. enness, you may be interested to know that our students have been praying for Undercover Carlos, and for all I know, have reached out to him. I think he probably did learn something there, at least that is our hope.
All of you may also be interested to know that we spend quite a bit of time on issues that have nothing to do with the “gay agenda.” We had lectures on sexual integrity, the impact of divorce on society, and Margaret Sanger’s Eugenic Legacy. So, we are Equal Opportunity Offenders, as far as the Sexual Revolutionaries are concerned.
You all should sign up for the Ruth Institute newsletter and keep up with our movements!! http://www.ruthinstitute.org
Dr. Rick Fitzgibbons, without exception homosexual practices are an acceptable option taught to youth in every diocese, in every parochial school in the U S. Check it out:
http://www.motherswatch.net/content/view/12/6/ - Part 1
http://www.motherswatch.net/content/view/15/6/ - Part 2
It matters little what chatter comes from the hierarchy. The fact is: youth are deliberately being led toward vices that will cost them their souls. If youth raised to be tortuous barbarians without having a clue how to tame the passions in “Catholic Schools”, all society suffers. The “Desire to Destroy” is alive and on track performing adequately the dastardly deeds written about in the book by Atila Sinke Guimarâes. That same author wrote the book, “Vatican II, Homosexuality & Pedophilia”.
If the RCC does not want to amrry same-sex couples that is fine. But the RCC does not have the right to impose its teachings upon the broader American society. The RCC does not have the right to deny the right to marry to any American citizen, to defy the US Consitution’s 14th Amendment. The US is not a RC theocracy. Redefining marriage??? Have opponents of same-sex marriage read the Bible?? First and formost there is nothing in the Bible that says marriage is to be between one man and one woman. In fact, marraige in the Bible is most often depicted/described as polygamous. A number of men in the Bible ar e described as having many wives and many concubines. This was not seen as wrong, weird, or redefining anything. So please do not rely on scripture to say that marriage is between one man and one woman. That is clearly not the Bbilical model.
Lisa Kaiser,
You are correct, at one time God did allow men to marry multiple wives and I would even say that men have a very strong desire to have multiple ‘mates’. I know myself that desire is just as strong as any desire I have ever had but with Gods help I have overcome that desire and no longer practice it. So why can’t homosexual control their sexual and emotional desires? Can only straight people control these desires. I think not.
Your argument is like saying ‘There is nothing in the Bible that says murder is wrong. The Israelites commonly killed people of other nations, wiping them out totally. So I have the right to kill people.’ I know, you will say that is not the case but in fact, it is just as valid as your argument. In fact, here are some examples of where the Bible not allow for any kind of ‘Same-sex’ period but you can always find a way around it. It doesn’t matter to you that throughout history no Christian religion allowed for homosexual activity at all. All that matters is that you want to commit a sin and feel good about it, no matter what damage it does to society, the adopted children of same-sex couples, nothing matters to you. It is all about you and what you want. It has nothing to do with God. It is a cancer on society today. Everyone wants a religion that fits their desires. Just like people who leave the Catholic church because it doesn’t allow divorce, despite the harm it does to their children and spouses. Just like people who leave the Catholic Church because it doesn’t allow fornication, despite the harm it does to feelings and the fatherless children it leaves behind.
Each one is equally as evil and God-less. Some people seem to think that just because homosexuality is ‘unnatural’ it somehow is worse but each one causes Jesus Christ sorrow, each one condemns us to damnation.
Grok Hadrian,
You have missed the point of my comment. And that point is: the US is not an RC theocracy. What the RCC sees as sin should dictate the rights of all American citizens via the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution.
And you are wrong about the Bible. There is certainly much int he Bible that condemns murder. Start witht he story of Cain and Abel. The Decalogue (the 10 Caommandments) prohibts murder. The books of Deuteronony and Leviticus set out penalites of killing and murders, because it such things are wrong.
America is not a Christian nation, it is a secular nation where citizens belong to many faith traditions and thankfully we have separation of church and state. You want to view the rights of all American via the teachings of the RCC and/or Christianity. And, thankfully that is unconstitutional in our nation.
Lisa Kaiser, your argument seems to be that just because a Catholic or Christian believes something is wrong which is also prohibited by their church, that means that the beliefs of said Catholic or Christian should be discounted. That also seems to mean that you think that only the beliefs of those who are atheist or agnostic should count.
My Catholic faith teaches that murder is wrong, does that mean that since my faith teaches that, that it should be discounted by our government? Of course not. By your reasoning, all people of faith would become second class citizens, and only those with no religion at all would have a say.
I meant to say above is that What the RCC sees as sin should NOT dictate the rights of all American citizens via the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution.
Beverly,
You entirely distort my comments. Religious beleif is religious belief and should not be discounted. My point is that the beleifs of the RCC or of any Christian group should not be determinative of the rights of consenting adults to marry, should not be used to negate the rights given to all American citizens(not just Christians) via the US Constitution and in particular via the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution. In the USA, we have separation of church and state. The USA is not an RC theocracy. If the RCC does not wish to marry same-sex couple, that is absolutely fine. But the RCC should not control marriage for the broader American society. It is not Christians who are being made into second clase citizens or who have no say. It is Christians who want gay Americans to be second class citizens, it is Christians who want to deny gay Americans their right to marry via the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution and Christians who who want gay American to have no say in our nation. It is Christians who want to destroy the separation of church and state in the US.
So just how does one go separating out the “religious” beliefs of a person from “non-religious” beliefs? Would you tell a voter that since they are Christian, and their beliefs line up with their church, that that voter is acting only as a religious person?
Frankly, I am floored by the assertion that it is Christians who want to destroy the separation of church and state. In light of world events of the last couple of weeks, the elephant in the room is truly being ignored.
Lisa Kaiser, There is an important principle I ask you to consider and that is the term the “right” for homosexuals to marry. A right is defined as the moral power residing in a person and which all others are bound to respect. A right is founded on law. The existence of a right in one person involves an obligation in all others to not impede or violate that right.
There are many people today who demand for their “rights” – to kill the child in the womb and even after the child is born; the right to sell pornography, to promote contraceptives, to be assisted to suicide…….
Now these so-called ‘rights’ have become legal but they are not natural and true rights. They are against God’s law = thou shall not kill; thou shall not commit adultery. Each person may have the free will to commit sin, but no creature has the moral power, the right to sin against the Creator. This is the primary reason society is in such a sad state of affairs. The moral fiber of society is hell bent on satisfying depravements. People have departed from the laws of God and are blindly following their lusts and passions.
Nobody has the ‘right’ to disregard the laws of God. Even if you are victorious in getting the law passed for gays to marry, you will be heaping hardships and removing ‘rights’ from other people. Rights designed by man always removes rights from others. Unlike, natural Divine rights/God’s law that never deprives any one of obtaining true happiness. There are no consequences.
You know what the consequences of leading a homosexually active life style are = shorter life span; increased chances of cancers and AIDS; more suicides; more broken relationships; more alcohol and drug abuse; more physical and psychological heath issues = = = = = and what’s NEXT!?? Legalized incestual relationships are on the horizon!. Depraved appetites are always seeking more ways to satisfy out of control passions.
So you are clamoring to legalize misery to be heaped upon human beings. Please. consider the commonsensical side of this issue.
@Lisa Kaiser
Since marriage is a religious union and has been since before govt recognized or cared about marriage, why should govt dictate what is marriage and tell religion who can be married. Can govt tell us who can be baptized, who can be made a priest and who we can give final rights to?
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Separation of church and state is a two way street, keep your govt out of the business of bestowing marriage on people and interfering with religion. If you want to separate church and state tell govt to stop recognizing all marriage.
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Also do not play naive here. We already know that govt does not respect religious rights under Obama. So when the govt has cooped marriage then they will force religious institution to honor those couples as married against their religious beliefs.
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You really need to try to keep an open mind here and look at this from both sides, not just the view that washington is the bestower of all rights in this country, in fact the founders stated that rights come from God not the govt, so get on board here.
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Finally, marriage has a definition. It is the union of a man and women for the purpose of giving birth to and raising the next generation. It is not a romantic bond or an expression of one person’s love for another. Once you realize that, you will realize that gay marriage does not make sense anymore than buying tires for a boat. The media and hollywood have come a long way in confusing the purpose of marriage and I suppose we romanticize the event, but don’t lose sight of its purpose. It’s not flowers and pretty dresses, it is a pair-bond for the purpose of reproduction. (who says? religion!)
To the above comments:
1. It is clear from the comments above the Bible is being used incorrectly, without understanding and otu of context. The writers of the Bible were NOT talking about gay people, about gay relationships, about being gay, or about gay marriage as we understand those concepts. The prohibition in Leviticus is about idolatry and sex as a form of idol worhsip. God is love, God is all about love and that includes love between people of the same sex. The RC bishops spout hatred and bigotry. God does not.
2. The RC bishops have manufactured a “war against religion” supposedly being wage by the POTUS. Its a myth, a way to distract people from the fact the bishops continue to put the live os children at risk by shielding pedophiles. The bishops are happy to continue to take US taxpayer money and the bishops will never give up their own healthcare coverage, if if they force diocesean employees to. If same-sex marraige becomes legal in the US, the RCC will remian NOT to amrry same sex couple. The RCC is free now to deny marriage to ehomever it wants. That will not change. So please stop trying to put mythical sacre tactics out there. It silly, illogical and just plain wrong.
@Lisa Kaiser
1) “God is all about love and that includes…”
- No, this crass attempt to equate gay sex, gay marriage and gay erotic feelings to love is dishonest.
- Yes God is Love and that is the love of agape love - the selfless love of your neighbor or children not sexual.
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2) The church’s view on gay marriage is based on natural law, you are ignoring this:
- All life must reproduce.
- Marriage is the pair-bond function of reproduction.
- Gay marriage is not reproductive.
- Gay marriage is pretend marriage (sterile and false).
- Adopted or existing children of gay couples fair worse than those of foster children.
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3) “The RC bishops have manufactured…”
- Do you think we are blind? We can see the govts action. It crosses into religious institutions telling them who they must hire, what benefits they must offer.
- Universities have dropped health coverage because they could not reconcile dictates from the invasive national socialist govt.
- Obama has pledged to fund with Catholic’s tax dollars planned parenthood, an affront to any Catholic.
- It is the govt that has violated the separation of church and state by trying to redefine marriage - a sacrament.
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4) “bishops continue to put the live…”
- This is a lie.
- To even participate in child classroom or server events you now pass a background check, the church and priesthood is independently audited on court approved procedures to protect children.
- A simple investigation on your part would have prevented you from your false and slanderous false witness.
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/2011-annual-report.pdf
- This process is among the best in the world. To equate what happened decades ago to the current policy is a lie.
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5) “So please stop trying to put mythical sacre[sic] tactics”
- We all watch the DNC place Sandra Fluke, their warrior for forcing Catholic Universities to pay for contraceptives, center stage at their convention. Again, do you think we are blind? They not only forced this issue with the Catholic church, but they have glorified their poster child. Next will be requiring recognition of gay marriage and providing benefits intended for married couple to gay couples. I’m sure requiring Catholic Schools to teach that gay marriage is acceptable will not be far behind.
Rob,
Good points. @Lisa appears to be a bit out of touch with reality. Not only does she to ignore God but she also has to ignore logic as you pointed out so well in your post. We dialog with these people with logic. But I sometimes wonder if we are looking at it wrong. Does logic work with someone who is psychotic? I am not saying that @Lisa is psychotic but since she doesn’t see reality as being real, then perhaps she needs to be approached as someone whose thinking is a bit off. I don’t know. I can’t understand why someone can’t recognize the natural law. It is as they say, illogical.
Rob,
Your opinions make me once again thankful that the USA is NOT an RC theocracy and will be never be that. Rome will never control the US. I support with vote and cmapaign contributions those candidates for office who support the equal rights of all Americans.
As for the bishops—you have not been paying attention. This problem is ongoing. Its NOT decades old. Its now, current, ongoing and still being ignored by the bishops. The bishops are still endangering the lives of children by coveringup for pedophiles. You do know that Bishop Finn of Kansas City was just convicted, earlier this month, of the crime of failing to report the possession of child prornography by a KC priest? The priest, Shawn Ratigan, is currently facing federal charges re the possession child pornography. And just this past week, the Archdioces of Philadelphia has again put on leave priest who have been accused of child abuse. Civil cases have been brought in KC and Philly re these actions by the priests and the bishops.
Open your eyes. The RCC bishops are far far far from perfect. They have left the message of God in the dust long ago.
@Lisa Kaiser
1) “I support with vote and cmapaign[sic] contributions those candidates for office who support the equal rights of all Americans”
- Lisa do you support providing disability benefits to healthy people, or gynecological benefits to men, maybe childcare for adults? Your statement about supporting “equal rights” in the case where they do not apply is silly. I have a friend, should he and I get married benefits or maybe my sister and I, we love each other?
- Equal rights does not mean everyone gets what they want. It doesn’t mean everyone who wants to adopt a child should be allowed and it does not mean everyone who declares there love for another person can be married.
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2) No one said the RCC bishops are perfect. You have slayed a mighty strawman there. Yes there are sinners in the church, and the process to protect children is not perfect or complete, but to imply that the bishops are ignoring the protection of children, have not put methods into place or are creating a religious rights issue so they can shield pedophiles is just ludicrous.
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3) “once again thankful that the USA is NOT an RC theocracy”
- What does that mean? Has anyone here said that they want to make the US a theocracy? Just because Catholics do not want their rights trampled by an oppressive govt does not mean they want to overthrow the US govt with a theocracy. Throughout US history Catholics have typically been discriminated against, not been in a position of power. So your theocracy idea seems crazy to me.
- In fact you are the only one in thousands of words of comments that even mentioned the word theocracy? Once again you are putting up a mighty battle against a strawman of your own mental construct.
Brilliant Rob! Minty, you make good points too. Lisa, my dear…you sound confused.
Robs argument again is well made with the statement ‘Once again you are putting up a mighty battle against a strawman of your own mental construct.’
In fact the whole ‘same sex marriage’ argument is a strawman. Marriage MEANS the joining of a Man and a Woman for life. It has nothing to do ‘same sex unions’. What exactly is the definition of marriage to homosexuals? Like Rob said, is it a life long commitment. Well modern divorce laws prove that not to be the case. Is it a sexual relationship, well our society proves that not to be the case. Then what is it? It is in fact, the union of a Man and a Woman in which that union is blessed by God. With that God Blessed union comes a lifelong commitment, sexual relations, and other benefits of Gods blessing.
But society has been trying to redefine marriage to the point that it has no resemblance to its original intent. Perhaps it would be easier if us Catholics just starting calling our Marriages such as ‘matrimonium’ and get it over with.
Please, guys. In no way is same sex marriage betraying God. Procreation is not the reason for one to be married… One does not marry in order to have children. They marry to love someone… Whether that person is of the opposite sex or the same sex is irrelevant. If it is true that God created us all equal, and ten percent of our population is homosexual, we have no right to discriminate against a minority. I’m sure that if Jesus was still around, he would allow people of the same sex to marry, because in his eyes, all people were created equal. Redefining something such as marriage is not always a bad thing… The idea of slavery was redefined, and abolished, and that was unarguably a change for the better. These marriage laws were laws made hundreds of years ago, in a society of slavery, the Crusades, and the slaughter of innocents on the behalf of the church. The church can change for the better, and we need to catch up…
“God created us all equal.” Well, maybe not in terms of thinking deeply about marriage.
Where to start with this profoundly flawed post? Let us take each erroneous point in the order of appearance:
1. Same-sex “marriage” is not betraying God? “In no way”? Romans 1: 26-27: “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” Read it and weep if you thought God was on your side on this one.
2. “One does not marry in order to have children.” Having children always and everywhere has been one end-point of marriage, without exception in any society. Even though some in their marriage do not avail themselves of children, this exception does not alter the essence of marriage as is pointed out very clearly here: http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/marriage_essentially
3. “They marry to love someone.” Any philosopher worthy of his graduation stole will point out to you that you just used the singular as you object of the sentence. As pointed out in the link in #2 above, when the end-point of marriage is love alone, then one is free to marry as many loves as one wishes to love. It is the logic of it and it cannot be refuted.
4. “Ten percent of our population is homosexual.” Kinsey was wrong about that. Look it up and learn the figure is 1 to 3% in many international studies.
5. “We have no right to discriminate against a minority.” Show me one law in one state that discriminates against gay or lesbian people with regard to jobs. Marriage between one man and one woman discriminates against no one as the link in #2 above shows very clearly.
6. “I’m sure that if Jesus was still around, he would allow people of the same sex to marry…” Socrates said that he, himself was ignorant. You, in contrast, assert assurance. You are no philosopher. You are no theologian. See Romans 1 above.
7. “The idea of slavery was redefined.” No, it was not redefined. Slavery is what it is. It was outlawed, not redefined. Societies do put restrictions on people as they have in placing very specific boundaries around marriage: one man and one woman. Marriage should not be redefined as the scientific research demonstrates clearly that children need a father and a mother to develop in healthy manner.
8. “The Crusades….” What???
9. “The slaughter of innocents….” Please define your term “innocents” so we can judge whether this is a post that is thoughtful or filled with the current rhetoric of those who want power at all costs. Oh, and one more point: If you are concerned about the “the innocents,” then are you willing to stand with me in protecting children, who are best protected when raised by one mother and one father in a stable family context?
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