Well said.  I find it funny that this encyclical’s name sounds like a very healthy kind of dog food:  Catholica Purissima Maxima.

Excellent!  I often find it hard to experience the same level of closeness with friends who are not Catholic, but there have been some rare and beautiful exceptions. :)

I’m starting to get familiar with that shadow in my cave.  But invite anybody in?  I’m not sure I’m ready to risk it.

Alright, I can’t see a single point in this article that anybody could possibly find offensive…..I’ll check back tomorrow, though, because if my fellow Catholics are one thing, it’s creative!

Seriously, though, great article.

It seems the reader is confusing what is holy and what is pious. She says these castigators are “holier” than her, but that’s something that’s very difficult to know. It’s easy to tell who is more pious, especially when you’re dealing with the more sanctimonious forms of piety some people, even people of good will, display. But holiness is a state pertaining to one’s interior and piety to one’s exterior. I think I have a general handle on the holiness of my wife (which is greater than mine, but that’s ok) and maybe a couple other people I know really well. Past that, it becomes assumption, and not the good kind involving Mary. I point this out not to criticize the reader, but to say it’s a dangerous game to assess the holiness of others in relation to yourself. The people you think are holy may or may not be so. I can speak from experience that it’s can be very disheartening if those you’ve held above yourself turn out to be less than you thought. 1 Corinthians 4:3-4 “But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.”
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Also, if we can’t be friends with non-Catholics, how are we to evangelize anyone? Or is that their point?

Sneaky. Them Protestants is sneaky.

And they smell bad.

And even the women wear farmer overalls.

Besides, if you’re a perfect Catholic (oddly enough, someone just like me), you’re too busy saying the rosary to have friends.

The friendship of GK Chesterton and Bernard Shaw comes to mind…

This is great. One of my closest friends and certainly my best confidant (other than my husband) is not only not a Catholic, she’s not even a Christian anymore. But we are kindred spirits through and through. She mostly lives according to the natural law: she believes marriage is for a lifetime, abhors abortion, struggles against being materialistic. And this is on top of the devout Protestants, not-so-devout Protestants, and nominal Catholics I’m friends with (and related to). So thanks for affirmation. Sometimes I keep these friendships quiet around prissier Catholics, because I’ve gotten raised eyebrows about it in the past.

@ rem: Don’t worry. Someone will miss the sarcasm of the title and exclaim, “How dare you call me a heathen?!” Also, I’m betting someone (devout Catholic, for shizzle) will take Simcha to task for inventing an encyclical. How dare she?!
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Great article, Simcha. I have had non-Catholic friends my whole life. While I have struggled at times, I find that as long as I have Catholic friends who support me in Catholic things, I also greatly benefit from non-Catholics who share my ideas about parenting, the environment, art, etc.
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It’s a wide world full of beautiful people! All created by God.

Josh said, “Also, if we can’t be friends with non-Catholics, how are we to evangelize anyone?” Not that that is the only reason why we are friends with them, but I think that you have to love people before you can convey the love of Christ to them.

Exactly!

AMDG

Thank you for this! It seems there are a lot of people who don’t get this and maybe they are, as you say, just jerks :-P

Well, other than my husband and some family members, the people with whom I am closest are not Catholic, most barely qualify as any religion.    But they’re all good people.  They make me laugh and we have lots of very worldly stuff in common.  None of my friends are pushy and if they were anything less than respectful of my beliefs I wouldn’t count them among my friends.

I see it this way: We Catholics are called upon to be a leaven.

@Janet - Yeah, that’s what I meant. Evangelization needs friendship, friendship doesn’t necessarily need evangelization. Recently I heard someone on the radio (I think Fr. Larry Richards maybe) say the three steps to evangelize people are: 1) pray for them, 2) actively love them, and 3) share Christ with them from your experience, and that you need to do all three in that particular order. Sounds like sound advice to me.

As a convert, I can honestly say that the friendship of my deeply Catholic, non-judgmental friends that was crucial in my conversion.  Before then, I thought that most Catholics were like this woman’s friends, circling the wagons in a defensive, ghetto-mentality.  When I saw that indeed that there were such people who were gracious, thoughtful, funny, and yet orthodoxly Catholic, my world started to change drastically. 

And I LOVE the made-up encyclical!

Ditto to Sydney Ruth.  I was a hopeless agnostic and if Catholics had not been loving to me in a personal way, I would never have entered the Church.  Moreover, if I had felt that I was being viewed mainly as a “project” rather than as a friend, I would not have been able to be open to the influence of these beautiful people.  We cooked together, we played music together, we discussed books, we climbed mountains to look at sunsets, we danced.  There were all the little thoughtful things that friends do for each other, all the little ways they enjoy each other.  And they made me understand that they thought I was a lovely person; I know now that they saw Christ in me.  Their seeing of Christ in me was the occasion for Christ to come to life in me.

C. S. Lewis?  He wasn’t Catholic, so are you sure we should quote him here (not once, but twice)?  Well, Tolkein (a devout Catholic) managed a friendship with him, so I guess he might be OK.

I think it is good to be friends with non-Catholics; however I had to break off a friendship with a friend who was in an unapologetic adulterous affair with a married woman. I spoke with him about it before, to help him recognize that what he was doing was wrong, but it was a deal breaker.

I guess it is a question of where do we draw the line with our friends’ (Catholic & non-Catholic) immoral behavior, especially in regards to how it may affect us and our families.

Simcha,

I think it’s important to remember that St. Paul’s admonition in 2 Corinthians 6:14, “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” 

There are two important caveats.  First, this isn’t understood as an absolute rule: the Church *will* marry Catholics and non-believers, and St. Paul elsewhere refers to such marriages. Second, Paul is focusing on romantic love, rather than friendship.

C.S. Lewis distinguished the two in this way: “Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest.”  Aristotle goes deeper in Book VIII and IX of Nicomachean Ethics, grouping that “common interest” into three separate classes.  In ascending order:

(1) friendships of utility [being friends with your co-workers, or the wife of your husband’s best friend, etc.] – people you wouldn’t naturally be drawn to, but whose friendships are beneficial in some way;
(2) friendships of pleasure [drinking buddies, your sarcastic friends, etc.] – people you are naturally drawn to because they are fun to be around;
(3) perfect friendships [close friendships built around a shared love of virtue; as Christians, we would describe this as love of God, since He’s where all virtue points].

The first two categories of friendships aren’t bad, but they’re inferior to perfect friendships.  Each higher category of friendship contains the lower: so a perfect friendship is virtuous, but it’s also pleasurable and useful.  All three forms of friendship are based on love, but only the third (friendship in its truest sense) is based on loving the other person for themselves, viewing *them* as a good, rather than their personality or their position. 

So you’re right in saying that friendships are based on a common interest, but these common interests aren’t of equal worth (as you put it, they’re not “all at the same level of profundity”).  A good example of this highest form of friendship can be found between Saint Basil and Saint Gregory Nazianzen.  Gregory described it this way:

“I was not alone at that time in my regard for my friend, the great Basil. I knew his irreproachable conduct, and the maturity and wisdom of his conversation. I sought to persuade others, to whom he was less well known, to have the same regard for him. Many fell immediately under his spell, for they had already heard of him by reputation and hearsay. [...]

Our single object and ambition was virtue, and a life of hope in the blessings that are to come; we wanted to withdraw from this world before we departed from it. With this end in view we ordered our lives and all our actions. We followed the guidance of God’s law and spurred each other on to virtue. If it is not too boastful to say, we found in each other a standard and rule for discerning right from wrong.”

I don’t think that Gregory and Basil are being “full-time poops.”  I think that they just understand that a friendship built off of Christ is a better friendship than on built off of “similar taste in food.” 

What Gregory describes is a selfless love of the other, built around share beliefs and virtue.  Because of this, Aristotle argues that this highest form of friendship is only really possible between (a) virtuous people, and (b) equals [although he argues that the parties can bring about an equality that doesn’t naturally exist; as Christians, we’d see this in the Incarnation and divinization].

Of course, “virtuous” doesn’t mean the same as “Catholic,” but a difference in religion certainly creates a sort of barrier.  If the purest friendships are founded upon a common interest in God and virtue, the friendship will be hindered to the extent that the two people have different ideas of what “God” and “virtue” are.

Put differently: if your friend is a non-Catholic, imagine what would happen to your friendship if they would convert.  If you envision that your friendship would improve and deepen, you’re recognizing that the religious difference impedes the potential of your friendship.  Certainly, believers and non-believers can be friends: particularly when we’re dealing with friendships of utility and pleasure.  But my guess would be that the reader’s friends were troubled by the fact that a non-Catholic was her “best” friend. 

I.X.,

Joe

@nancyo:

By that standard, St. Thomas Aquinas should not have argued from Aristotle, nor his Muslim interpreters Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd. Josef Pieper explains in his Guide to Thomas Aquinas:

But what, you may well ask, is the meaning of the constantly recurring formula: “As the Philosopher [Aristotle] says,” or sicut patet per Philosophum<em>? Is not the implication: “He” said it and therefore it is true? The answer is no&emdash;it does not mean that. <em>Sicut patet per Philosophum must be rendered: as has been made clear by Aristotle. Not because it is Aristotle who said it, but because he said it in a way that throws light on the problem&emdash;that is why it is so.

The greater friendship challenge is the “marginal Catholics.”  You know, those who support abortion and gay marriage, tell nonCatholics they can receive Communion at Mass, etc., and claim there is nothing inconsistent with those beliefs and being Catholic.  They are friendships from youth, and there is so much goodness there, but lately I have wondered whether they are worth the pain.

I went to a Catholic high school in the early 80’s. My best friend there was a Japanese girl whose family was Buddhist (you may wonder what she was doing at a Catholic high school - she was very smart and it was the best high school in the area). We had the same sense of humor, liked to read good literature, were both interested in art and writing (worked on the school newspaper together) and were serious students. She was probably the most moral and innocent person I knew at school - really decent compared to all the Catholic teenagers there. I haven’t had a friend like that since then. I mean I have friends now who are good Catholic women, but none who are real “kindred spirits” - who like to read, love music and art and gardening, laugh at the same jokes, and are Mark Shea-ish politically. My husband is my closest friend now, but it seems like he shouldn’t count since we share the same bed.

I certainly appreciate this article for the complete and total charity it reminds us that we are called to whether or not it’s a non-Catholic friend or just a stranger in the store that we are engaging.  Charity and friendship come with responsibilities. The greatest of these our Lord says is Love. What is love? Love in its truest form is desiring what is best for the other person, salvation. As a Catholic, my greatest desire for my husband, children, extended family, and friends is for us to all be together in eternity!  In doing so we are called to remember in any relationship we can never compromise the truth of Jesus Christ. One must not ‘hit them over the head’ with the truth, but one must always have the love of ones soul forefront in ones mind and stand firm in the truth. This is not easy, but then again, love never is.

There are plenty of friendship challenges out there for all of us. For the full time poops, maybe the greatest challenge is to befriend those outside the tight inner circle of their like minded sour faced Catholic friends. But maybe for those who think themselves ‘more charitable than thou’, maybe for those who love and identify with this article, the challenge is to be a true friend to the full time poops. Charity is universal. Also, Otis Redding *is* fantastic.

When I announced to my parents that I was moving to one of the “bluest” parts of a blue state, my father pronounced with a cryptic look of disgust:  “good luck moving to the people’s republic”.  I remembered my feminist aunt who used to walk to the Transamerica building in San Francisco with her chic business suits and running shoes, (which she refused to change at work in order to better suit the tastes of misogynist men).  She was fired/resigned when she decked a male client who pinched her rear at work.  She was tough as nails.  I braced myself, remembering the “no breeder” sign I’d seen as a kid in the Haight Ashbury neighborhood, I was already weird enough with five kids in tow. 
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I was prepared to be a fish out of water. I was prepared for the worst.  My mother added her own two cents with “You’ll hate it.  It’s always cold. (insert Mark Twain quote about summers in SF)It rains there all the time too.” She said with disgust.
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...It didn’t rain so much, and it was beautiful. Those little towns, strung together in the forest across from the Golden gate are simply lovely. I couldn’t have been more surprised about what I did encounter—an amazingly eclectic group of people from every corner of the earth.  It distilled bright, cultured people, that have bright cultured children.  They were community minded.  They taught their children about giving back, conservation, and never, never, NEVER to allow bullying.  We felt welcomed.  Only a few pairs of eyebrows were raised over our big family. Outward displays of wealth was frowned upon. People wanted picket fences instead of three car garages. I was stunned to realize how *Catholic* the roots of that place, which had been settled by Portuguese and Italian immigrants was.
.
I realized something crucial about what we all wanted there—what we were all *seeking*...
wholeness, a sense of belonging, a loving family, a great education for our children.
*We were all thirsting for goodness*.
The name of God was never spoken in public to a general audience.  This was taboo.  Interestingly enough though, atheism was never celebrated either.  Speaking out as an atheist would have come across as disrespectful.
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I realized that I lived in a community of good people, who were largely successful,I would wager to guess, because many of them came from families, that had imparted strength to them. (Divorced families were the exception, not the rule). They had a “religious sense”, even if it was partially damaged, unformed, and suffered from a misunderstanding about the essence of what the Catholic faith teaches, and a skewed lens upon her history.  I realized that this was the greatest roadblock to the Faith, because clearly, most were already willing to suffer for their children.
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Last August I had the pleasure of going back to that old hometown which we really miss, and threw a little party with a gathering of some of our closest friends, we had made over the years.  More than half were not Catholic. At one point of the evening one of my dear friends who works for Fr. Fessio, at Ignatius press, sought me out with a bit of a panicked look on her face.  She pulled me into a dark room to explain to me what happened.  She had had been chatting amicably for about an hour with my friend, whom she didn’t know was the mayor, and had described to her how she was planning a 40 days for life vigil in front of the Planned Parenthood that had just opened up near the High School and Middle school.  She was mortified when my friend told her she was pro-choice, and what her job in the town was.  I stood in the dark giggling at my friend’s stricken face and told her not to worry, because the mayor is a good, intelligent person (a work in progress like all of us).  She is a Stanford graduate in environmental studies (heh), a liberal, who campaigned (the first time around) for Obama (ew).  She is gracious, kind, family minded and generous.  Her son and mine had been close friends since the second grade.  I knew she was raised in a good family and had gone to Catholic schools as a girl. I pulled my rabble rouser friend back to the mayor, where they exchanged business cards and authentic pleasantries.  I knew, based upon that small bridge that had been forged that both could rest easily knowing the other was respectable, and couldn’t be dehumanized by the stereotypes we like to resort to. 

I think we also need to recognize that these non Catholic or non Christian friends often have something to teach us as well.  Let’s not assume that it is a one way street - us evangelizing them or showing them the proper path all the time.  Some of my closest friends are non Christians and often show me how to be a better person.  I think we should be careful to assume that we are the ones doing all the evangelizing etc.

@K and Bob - both excellent points!

Strangely, I don’t know anyone, Catholic or otherwise, who foregoes friendship with someone based on religion.  I’m aware of many who distance themselves from people (myself, for instance) because of a perceived difference in social or economic status.  (Or is it my yellow teeth?)  I affect a rude way of speaking and wear shabby clothes just to ward off such empty heads.

Religion has no effect on personal relationships in our part of the world.  Money, on the other hand…

In my life I have found that having friends who are not catholic is not only a chance to evangelize and witness to them, but a chance for me to come to know my faith more deeply. I have an open dialog with my non-catholic friends. I can’t tell you how many times I have been unable to answer a question or continue a discussion because I realized I didn’t know the basis for the Catholic position on something I had believed my whole life. Guess what that prompts me to do? Go learn something about my own faith. My non-catholic friends have guided me into more spiritual study than any of my Catholic friends. As long as you are not afraid to say “I believe it, but I can’t explain to you all the reasons why… YET.” and then go study. There is great benefit to be had from those friendships.

To be perfectly honest, I’d rather hang out with Catholics.  Not so much the poopy variety of course.  The poopy kind are more like a hair shirt, but even most of them have some redeeming qualities. It’s tough to be isolated from people who have a truly integrated Catholic mindset.  I consider those kinds of Catholics a luxury. I suppose that’s what heaven is for.  For now, all for Christ wherever and with whomever we are planted.  Onward soldiers!

Another question to ask RCs who would not be friends with a non-Catholic is this:  Would you be friends with Jesus?  Jesus was not Roman Catholic or a Christian,  Jesus was an observant Jew.  So I suppose RCs who would not be friends with non-RCs or non-Christians, would not be friends with Jesus or his mother Mary or Joseph, or any of the apostles, or Mary Magdalene, Joseph of Armithea, et, etc.  They would be not be friends with Moses, Miriam, Aaron, Queen Ester, King David, Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, Racle, issac, Jacob, Isiah, et, etc.  They were all Jews.

It a very narrow worldview if a person cannot be friends who have a different faith.

(Also, Simcha, let it not pass that your readership acknowledge the TMBG tune from which the title of the article is derived.)

Ah yes, evangelization….There was the time I was politely going back and forth exchanging theology with my Muslim Bff in high school.  She explained to me that the Quran does indeed say that Jesus is the son of God, but that Mohammed was His greatest prophet—and the Quran says we must not drink alcohol.
“Wait a minute”, I said, knowing I was on to something.  “Do you realize that if you believe that Jesus was the son of God (she showed me in the Quran where it says “I ran my Spirit through Mary’s womb”)and his FIRST miracle was to turn water into wine at a big party, Mohammed, whom it DOESN’T say was the son of God, must be mistaken?”
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And that, my friends, is how I turned my Muslim friend into my best drinking buddy.

Keyword: “were.”

“All in all, it’s not only permissible to be good friends with non-Catholics, it’s probably essential.”
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—but it’s not permissible to be good friends with an atheist—they must be evangelized!

Some people are alive only because it’s illegal to kill them.—Unknown
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I’ve got Jesus’s name on a wallet insert
and “Hell is for Queers” on the back of my shirt
and I uphold the Law,
for grace has a flaw:
the Church must have someone to drag through the dirt.
—Michael R. Burch

Okay, but do regular, not-holy Catholics have to be friends with the “good Catholics”?  It takes all my patience to not smack ‘em upside the head, jarring their mantillas askew…

Matt B,

Yes, all the people I mentioned are dead.  But you missed the point.  None of the folks mentioned were RC or Christian, but all were good and righteous people (not perfect people, but open to God).  My point is that RCs by confining their of circle of friends to just other RCs, miss out on the many good, righteous, spiritual people in the world.  One does have to be RC to be a good, righteous,spiritual person. And such people are not “heathens”.  After all, there are pedophile RC priests.  So some RCs would rather be friends with a pedophile RC priest (because he is an RC after all) than a good, moral, spiritual, rightouse Sikh???  Because after all the Sikh is a “heathen”!!!

Butterscotch,

Why not be friends with an atheist?  Why the compulsion to force your religion upon someone who does not wnat it???

Atheist does not mean “bad” or “sinful” or “immoral”.  A person can be gooe, righteous, moral and be an athesit.  Why can we not accept people for who they are?  Why must we insist that they be the same as us?  Why must we force our religious views on people?  Yes, Jesus said proclaim the “good news”.  Proclaiming is not the same as forcing.  If your friend knows you are RC, but makes it clear that he/she has no interest in being RC or even beleiving in God, then you could not accept that person for who he/she is?

No, Lisa, you missed the point.  All the people you mentioned are still alive.  However, they are “new creations.”

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh; even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.  Therefore, if any on is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold the new has come. - 2 Cor 5, 16-17

Paul’s characterization of the old passing away and the new coming into being probably refers to covenant relationships as well.

From the tenure of your comments, I’m judging your still considering things on the “flesh” level.

I’ve actually had the reverse happen-friends became more religious & cut ties with me because I’m not of their faith.One friend’s in an “ultra-orthodox” Jewish group now, the other joined a breakaway Mormon sect(I think).
I kind of understand the Jewish viewpoint.It’s very hard to overcome the rate of intermarriage & loss of tradition that have occurred in the US.But it’s still sad for me.

BTW, Lisa, we do in fact agree that “One does have to be RC to be a good, righteous,spiritual person.”  I hope you’re not reading anything to the contrary in any of my comments. 

For example, I can see that you are a zealous defender of God, for all of your self-avowed non-Catholicism.  And I know that although I am a bona-fide practicing Roman Catholic, I am an arrant pretender, and vile witness to all I nevertheless know to be true. 

I also realize that at any moment, though I presently sit at the pinnacle of creation, I could devolve into a garrulous Darwinian ape.

Go figure.

I agree it’s good and important to be friends with non-Catholics. (In the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. “Whom you would change you must first love, and they must know that you love them.”)

Maybe in another post you could address how it can be challenging, even emotionally draining, when you’re always worried about their soul because you care about them. I have walked a very fine line to maintain friendships from my teens and create work friendships as a twentysomething who is often the only practicing Catholic around. What do you say when a colleague tells you he’s going away for the weekend with his girlfriend? When you’re at your friend’s apt. and her friend says with disdain that another country is backwards because they don’t have abortion and gay marriage, and you know nobody in the room will back you up? How do you say grace gracefully before eating when everyone else just digs in and talks?

Jennifer’s post on Pontius Pilate hits home for me. When is it none of my business and when do I have a responsibility to speak the truth? I tend to be quiet and hope my life will be an example, but I have been trying to (tactfully and prayerfully) speak up more. The downside is that it makes me dread seeing many people I like! Any thoughts you have on this would be much appreciated. (Sorry about the length of this comment.)

@Nicholas
You make excellent points, thanks. I was being facetious, though, about C.S. Lewis.  If it weren’t for non-Catholics, I’d personally have a very small group of friends.  I must say, though, that this election season taught me that I need more soul-mates with whom I can share what is essentially a radical view of the world - the RC view.

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/07/three-arguments-against-atheism-from.html
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http://news.sky.com/story/806534/pope-sparks-atheist-row-over-nazi-comments

Matt B, 

first of all, since the people I mentioned are not RCs or Christians, please do not apply Christain theology to them.  That is wrong, arrogant, the height of hubris.  They are dead, not alive.  Secondly, we are talking about friendships that are occurring heare on earth.  My point was that, there are many people who are not RC, not Christian, who are great people.  And for any RC to reject such a person on the basi that he/she is not RC or Christian is just repugnant.

As an aside, whenever I left to go to mass during university, my close friend and roommate, who has a great sense of humour, would say, “Pray for my heathen soul!”

Every one is writing as though “non-Catholics” were another species. They are just as human as anyone else—look around.
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Any non-Catholic would be offended. You should be ashamed of yourselves and apologize.
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If you substituted “non-Catholic” with “nigg#r” you might just see how offensive this is.
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Matt B,

I meant to say that one does NOT need to be RC or Christain to be good, moral, righteous, spiritual. There are many, many billions of people in the world who are good, righteous, moral, spiritual and NOT RC or Christian.

Sally,

Your points are right on (or spot on, as the Brits would say).

You know I see alot of nasty comments aimed at the “holier than thou Catholics” who see a need to be with those of the same mind. Sure it is nice to have friend who have common interests…but lets not have to much confidence in our ability to avoid temptation and keep ourselves strong against the “well intentioned” aims of our non-catholic friends who see us religious types as a little closed minded and “need a little help” opening our perspectives and that of our children, too. Seen that happen more than once. St. Catharine lamented the loss of time in her earlier years..due to worldly friends. Are you all really that strong and able handle all the subtle cultural temptations? Truly more that a few have lost their faith that way..wanting to fit with the “fun” group. It isn’t always a “great opportunity to convert”. It goes both ways. A little balance please.

Kathleen,

Intermarriage for Jews does not mean loss of tradition, etc.  Often the non-Jewish partner, converts to judaism and/or agrees tp raise children within Judaism.  Judaism in the US and around the world, is very alive, very vibrant and very well.  Yes, we are a minority.  But we are powerful minority, with ongoing traidtions.  Judaism is about 4,500 yrs old—more than twice the age of Christianity.  We are swtill here and are still doing great.  And as we all saw on Nov 6th, minorities are becoming the majority.  And for the first time the US Supreme Court has no Protestant justices.  Each of the current justices is either a Jew or Catholic.

I’m afraid I would be secretly wishing for her to convert, but I would love to have a Jewish friend.

I love the culture, the Old Testament- and it would be cool to be friends with a fellow monotheist who I could really let my hair down with because I wouldn’t have to worry how I am reflecting my Church and my husband’s priesthood. I might even occasionally be able to share family problems!

I have a few strong friends and many acquaintances who are Catholic (solidly so)- and I love them- but sometimes it feels like it is ONLY our faith that we are sharing- maybe I need to join a sewing circle to get some variety

Priest’s wife,

God’s promises to Jews are ongoing, unbroken and valid.  Jews were chosen by God to receive the Torah and that is still the case.  There is no reason for Jews to convert.  God wants us as we are.  There are 3 Abrahamic traidtions—Jduaism, Christianity, Isalm—because God wills it.  Christianity is not superior to, better than or triumphant over Judaism and/or Islam.

Just Me,

Becasue womeone is not RC, does not mean that perosn is “worldly” or bad, or immoral or nonspiritual, or nonreligious. or will lead some poor RC astray.  Being religious or spiritual does NOT belong to just RCs.  What I see in some comments here is the idea that only RCs are worthy friends, that only RCs are holy or moral or religious.  That is such a narrow and innaccurate view.  Its sad that some RCs just automatically beleive that any and all non-RCs are immoral, not spiritual ,etc. Where does such a narrow viewpoint come from?  Not from your Jesus—who was an observant Jew and who ate with “sinners” and the evil tax collectors!

Not true, Lisa. That is not what I said. I called for balance. Surely there definitely are those who are non-Catholic who are moral and try very hard to live a good life. I said, that to claim that a friendship with one is fine and without any real spiritual danger isn’t being honest or is mistaken about their own strength against temptation. I have had friends who respected my faith and those who would subtly try to errode it “for my own good”. Isn’t always a carefree, benign thing. We are all weak ...and let’s be honest… the religious road is tough. When we have a problem a person needs a friend who will help remind them of right road, according to our faith. It does make a difference…and that would require a friend of the same faith, because I can name more that one moral problem that would get a different answer from Christianity, Judiasm or Islam.(ie. I wouldn’t ask my Islamic friend how to handle my straying 15 year old daughter… or my pro-choice liberal friend who is really fun to go out with.) That is where having a friend of the same faith is essential. A true friendship is for the good and the bad.

Reminded me of the time when my Jewish friend said to me, “You know Maureen, we have a lot in common as a Jewish mother and a Catholic mother. We’re both into guilt. We both love wine. And all of our Evangelical friends are sure we’re going to hell.”

Just Me,

Non-RCs do not just “try very hard to live a good life”. One does not have to be an RC to live a good life. The “religious raod” is NOT the sole terrority of RCs.  Non RC are NOT a “spiritual danger” to RCs.  Where do get this suff??? No Muslim or Jew or non RC would have any worthy advice re your “straying 15 yr old daughter”  Only RCs would have the “correct” answer??  You mean someone like a pedophile RC priest would have worthy advice re your “straying 15 yr old daughter (because he an RC, after all), but a morally righteous Muslim or Jew would not????  Wow! You do live in a narrow world!!!! How would you react if your child decided to marry a non-RC who would not convert to RCism?  Would you dison your child? Not allow your your non-RC in-lw into house?  Not speak to your non-RC in-law? Try to secretly baptise their children as RCs?  Because God offers God’s love and grace and truth only to RCs?????

Wow, Lisa, your OT friends are going to be glad to know they’re “dead, not alive.”  All that being “rocked in the bosom of Abraham” must get pretty drole.  I know I’d want to be dead if all I could look forward to was sleeping out in the desert in a tent. 

Seriously, though, if your hope is coterminus with physical expiration, there’s not much sense in listenting to a word you say.  If you “obey God” regardless of the eternal consequences (or lack thereof), you are “the most detestable of people,” according to the apostle Paul.  Or should I say Saul. 

Unless, of course, your Judaism is just a cloak for hedonism.  That is, sensuality “dun rite.”  I’m picturing you rising up out of your monthly mikveh in a luxurient cloud of steam.

There’s a saying: Make a friend, be a friend, take a friend to Christ.

Lisa, I have stated twice that trying to live a good life is not the sole territory of Catholics. My point about the “straying 15 year old daughter” is that the tenents of each faith deal with it differently. I would seek the advice of one who holds the same tenents…doesn’t everyone who claims a faith try to hold to that faith? And yes, my reservations on what a Muslim would advise and a pro-choice liberal…stand.

Most of my friends are Catholic. But I honestly don’t think it’s about snobbery or fear. It’s because I’m very introverted and prefer to have just a few, close friends rather than lots of friends, and I find it easier to be close to other Catholics. I am not at all opposed to having non-Catholic friends, and I have had non-Catholic friends in the past.  But it just rarely seems to happen with non-Catholics. (Heck, it’s rare enough with Catholics!) I had more non-Catholic friends when I was younger, before marriage and kids, and had more time to socialize.

Also, I’ve noticed something. It seems like when it comes to female friends, it’s much easier to be close to other Catholics, or at least other Christians – women who have the same values. Women with very different values almost never want to be friends with me.  But when it comes to male friends, similar values don’t seem to matter as much. Men with very different values seem much more open to being friends. Women seem to take everything more personally. It’s a generalization, sure, but something I’ve noticed.

I also find men in general to be easier to be friends with than women. When I think about all the friends I’ve had in my lifetime, half of them have been male. 

Sally, if you think “non-Catholics” are getting a beating on this string, you should saunter over to the “Christian” websites.  You’ll see what opprobrium really is, when you witness how Catholics are treated there.  “The only “good Catholic” is a former Catholic” - Bob Jones.

Matt B,

Beief in an afterlife (heaven/hell) is not part of Judaism.  So all my friends from the “OT) (by which you mean the Original Testament) are fine with being dead.  We acknowledge that God “keeps faith with those who sleep in the dust”.  For Jews, a another life will happen when the Messianic age arrives (and it has not arrived).  For Jews, obeying God’s commandments is the goal because God requires this of us and because it is the right thing to do.  Jews do not obey God because of the fear of going ot hell—that is superstitiion, a wrong motive).  So obvioulsy Paul (Saul)left his Judaism and so he was entitled to his superstition and to his opinion.

An obvioulsy you know nothing of contemporary Judaism if you think that all Jewish women use a mikvah each month.  And perhaps you do not know that some Jewish men use the mikvah each week.

Just me,

You do have a narrow view if think only RCs have “correct” answers to life’s challenges.

If you don’t believe that your Faith holds ALL the answers….then what is the point?

M Bond,

Belief in Christ is not necessary for one to be good person.  And trying to impose your Christ upon others is not being a friend.  Again, I undertand that Christians feel compelled to “proclaim the good news”, but your scripture does not say that your “good news” should be forced upon other people.  God has loving, ongoing, unbroken covenants with Jews and with Muslims.Christ is not necessary.  Yes, you beleive that, but that does not mean everyone has to beleive that.  Or that if they don’t beleive that, that they are not “worthy” to be your friend.  All rigteous people have place in the workd to come.

Wonder how they’d feel about my having a pagan wife. She was raised in Mainland China but I would put her adherence to the principals of Christ’s teachings against those who object to your non-Catholic best friend. Fortunately for us, our Bishop didn’t seem to have a terrible problem and granted permission for me to marry an unbaptized woman. I really have to wonder how these people evangelize.

Just Me,

Wow!  Again with the very narrow worldview!  You think that your faith is worthwhile only if it has “all the answwers”????  All faith traditions, inlcuding the RCC, are human institutions, and as such do NOT have all the answers.  God has all the answers, but no one faith tradition is the sole earthly source of God’s truth.  God is beyond our human understanding.  The point is to live a good life, a moral life, to love God and neighbor.  And that idea is found in all faith traditions—Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, the Sikh faith, Bahia. All traditions are A path to God, but no one tradition is the only “true” path to God.  I hope you can find some other reason to find your RCism worthwhile other than that it has “all the answers”.

Joseph,
In being given permission by a bishop to be married….you would have had to promise to raise your children Catholic. And your non-Catholic wife would have had to promise to not stand in your way. So it differs from simply having a non-Catholic best friend. Religious obligations must still be met.

Lisa, I see that is where we truly differ. I believe that the Church is not a human institution, but a Divine one. So yes, I truly believe that the Faith holds ALL the answers and is the Divine Source of all Truth. Others have discovered some of the truth due to natural reason,..but not all of it. That is my best and only answer.

Just Me,

You are of course entitled to your opinion.  It is of course just an opinion.  No human being, not even the pope or RC bishops, can comprehend God or know the mind of God. RCism is one faith among many in the world.  And like the RCC, other faiths, in our time and in other times , have believed that it was a “divine institution” that it has “all the answers nad that it iis the sole source of God’s truth on earth.  That “others” have only partial answers.  Its all hubris and all just an opinion.

I am currently undergoing my own personal conversion. For me it is from atheist (back home) to Catholic. I have two distinct group of friends, one Christian and one NOT at all spiritual. I have always straddled these two groups. I could easily fit in with one and just as easily fit in with the other. Now neither of these groups would interact with each other which is the way I like it anyway. Now that I am returning to the Catholic church I have been asked how that will work out with my decidedly not Christian group of friends. My answer is this. I have always fit in with both and have been accepted by both when my lack of belief was where I was at. If any of these people are TRUE friends then it should not matter what you believe or don’t believe in. Think of the old “box of crayons” story that you may have read when you were a kid, or read to your kids depending on how old you are. They are all different colors and achieve different goals but they can all live together in the same box (world) and are all equally loved by the artist (God).

Lisa, maybe as an exercise of “broadening” you could meditate for a few minutes on the possibility that *maybe* just *possibly* the unfathomable happened, and Jesus truly *was* the “suffering” messiah that Isaiah foretold.

Lisa,
An opinion is not worth dying for…there is amazing peace and beauty in trying to life up to actual TRUTH that you firmly believe in. Read about the Faith, the Bible, actual lives of saints. There you will find lives lived for TRUTH. It is not a worldview that we should be trying to find…but “God’s View”. That is why we believe in sharing the Faith and protecting and nurturing our own. It is beautiful, and it is a gift we want ABSOLUTELY everyone else to have,too…even people we don’t agree with ;) Lighten up, I am hoping the best for you.

Anna Lisa,

The concept of messiah is a Jewish concept and Jesus was an observant Jew, steeped in his tradition and living in a Jewish world/culture.  Jesus does not fit the definition of messiah as set out in Hebrew scripture—which was the scripture from which Jesus taught.  What christianity does is try to appropriate the concept of messiah for its own purpuposes, distort the definition of messiah and then say that Jesus fits into that distorted defintion.  So no, Jesus is not the “suffering messiah” that isiah “foretold”.  Isiah was not talking about Jesus—that is another distortion of Hebrew scripture by christianity.

Joseph Heschmeyer, that is an important quote from St Paul; questioning whether it applies here?  Surely one can be friends with people one would not actually marry?  :)

Joseph Heschmeyer, my apologies.  I see that your comment does acknowledge the limited application of that St Paul quote.  The reflections from Aristotle are an interesting extension of Simcha’s delightfully commonsense article, and provide further food for thought.  Thank you for posting them.

Just Me,

The RCC is NOT the only osurce of truth on earth.  It just is not.  Yes, you can believe that.  But more than just RCs have died for their faith,  Faith is worth daying for, bu th RCism is not the only faith that people have found worht dying for.  Jews have died for their faith, Muslims have died for their faith,  Buddhists have died for their faith.  Byznatine Christians died for their faith at the hands of RCs, because RCs blieved that only their version of christainity was correct.

RCism is NOT the “Faith”.  The Bible does not belong to the RCC alone or to Rcism alone.  The first part of that book you call the Bible is the Herew scripture—written by Jews to set out Judaism.  It has nothing to do with the RCC, even though the RCC felt free to distort the message of Hebrew scripture, to try to say that Hebrew scripture in some way set the stage for Jesus as messiah. 

“Nuturing our own” is just another way of saying that non-RCs and non-Christians are “aliens”, “other, “lesser than”.  “Nuturing our own” is just thinly disguised bigotry.

Lisa, yes, I realize that the Jewish people were longing for a hero who would bring temporal victory, and vanquish their pagan oppressors.  A poor carpenter from a backwater called Nazareth who preached servitude, even to non Jews, rankled upon their purist sensibilities.  Perhaps you can consider for a moment that God’s plans included the entire world, inclusive of all people, and that the Jews have been honored that they as a people were the seed bed of this amazing, sweeping, world-wide salvation.  Salvation for all came forth from the people God courted, wooed and loved despite their adulterous falling away to other God’s—the worst of them being Mammon.

Lisa,
Unfortunately, I am not Thomas Aquinas….just me, and you are too angry to listen. You keep looking for insults that aren’t there. So, I will pray for you…

sorry small “g” on that last “Gods”

“Non-Catholics,” including atheists, are not unhappy the way they are. If they were, they would be seekers—looking for the religion/philosophy they can be happy with.
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Even if other “Christians” are worse in dissing non-Christians, it doesn’t mean it’s OK for RC’s to be contemptuous. Saying that “non-Christians/Catholics” can be good, moral, spiritual, etc. is still saying you wouldn’t expect them to be.
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Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal’d by the same means, warm’d and cool’d by the same winter and summer as a Christian is?
/
If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

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If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
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—Act III, scene I The Merchant of Venice

Just Me,

I think you are so steeped in your idea that the RCC is the one and only true faith that you do not see your own bigotry and do not see that you are being insulting.  I am not angry, but neither will I just let RCs bathe in their own hubris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIVB3DdRgqU

Anna Lisa,

Jesus did not “rankle their purist sensibilities”.  What a condescending, inaccurae and bigoted remark.  The Jews of Jesus’ time recognized that he was teaching strqight from the Torah.  jesus said nothing new about love of God, love of neighbor.  All those ideas came from his Judaism, for the Torah, in which he was steeped. Christians want to feel better about the fact that Jews are still a chosen people of God, by trying to co-opt and distort Judaism.  No, Jews have not been “honored” as the “seed-bed” of “salvation”  Again, what condescension.  And the “Mammon” (greed, love of material wealth) remark is really insulting.  Such a remark about the supposed Jewish love of money and wealth is the usual thing Jews hear from bigoted Christians,  Thai is the sort of thing that results when RCs think that their faith is the only one and true faith in the world.  It results in bigotry and seeing Jews and other NonRCs/non-Christians as “other”, as alien” as “lesser than” as being “honored” to be the source of the church that murdered, tortured, and forced converson upon them, forced them into segregated living areas.  Your remarks are insulting, inaccurate, bigoted, the result of hubris and ignorance.  If this what the RCC teaches and is about, then it is no wonder its own people are fleeing in droves.

Lisa, one needn’t dig far to find how difficult it was for the Jewish people to mix with non Jews.  This is not bigotry on my part.  What is understandable is why God didn’t want them to mix with pagan religion and practices.  Obviously some took this admonition to an extreme in shunning even one who had the wrong blood in their veins, when they were bleeding in a ditch.  As for the remark on Mammom, it crossed my mind after I pressed “print” that this might be misunderstood in a stereotypical way. I’m sorry if it appeared that way to you.  In my experience most people of every race and creed fight greed and a disordered desire for material advancement.  I would be very interested to learn from you as a person who hopes for a messiah who is yet to come; what his attributes might be, and what he will accomplish.

To go right back to the original article. When we define “friends” here in North America…We think of it as someone you share interests and other commonalities with.

Pope John Paul II was Polish and European. Therefore, “kith and kin”, family and village friends would be VERY close in definition. Similar experiences and history. And difficult history at that. That carries more depth than common interest.

I think we use the term too lightly…“acquaintance” would be a better term for those who don’t share core beliefs, but have an interest in common.

Like I said, earlier. Friends are there for the thick and thin. Acquaintances you have fun with…but when you need a shoulder that will keep you strong..find a friend.

Let me tell you about “interreligious relationships:”

My uncle was a Catholic small-businessman.  Like all of us, he scribbled a bit - enough to “turn a farthing.”

His wife had quietly divorced him.  Due to the difference in their ages, they were granted an annulment.  She was living quietly in the country, while his business required him to stay in town.

That’s where he met a dark-haired Jewish woman.  He fell passionately in love with her.  But when he started talking about formalizing their relationship, that’s when the trouble started.

She was the daughter of a rich banking family, while he was a mere “bit player.”  He was descended from country bumpkins, while she was descended from, well, Abraham Isaac & Jacob.

I prefer to think it was money that drove them apart.  Money changes everything.

Apparently, everyone wishes to continue this extremely prejudiced conversation without any self-reflection. At least the crowd who were going to stone the adulterous woman had sense enough to feel ashamed of themselves.
/
People of all races, religions, cultures, creeds, philosophies, and sexual orientation, have much more in common with each other, but it’s only religion that focuses on the differences between people as examples of good vs. evil. How can you love humanity, but only accept people who are like you?
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God must like variety or He wouldn’t have created mankind to multiply.

Three words. Love it. Love it. Love it. Okay, that’s six. :)

I really love this.  I’ve been guilty in the past of the ‘project’ mentality I’m afraid….but since becoming Catholic I’ve enjoyed a new freedom to just engage in friendship and let things progress without feeling pressured to ‘evangelize’.  And I’m meeting some really lovely, non-Christian people that way.

P.S. I meant, of course, that I love the article. I did not read the comments. I find I have more peace that way. :)

My parents, grandparents, siblings, and friends growing up (save for a few) were not Catholic-but I learned about Jesus from all of them because He lives in all of them and He reached me through each and every one of them whether they intended it or not.
Jewish friends taught me about what Jesus’ life might have been like.
I married a Catholic as a non-Catholic with all the proper Catholic dispensations but with an openness on my husband’s part to also include my faith in the raising of our children. I converted to Catholicism because of his example, the loving friendships of several Catholic friends, and the gentle and not-so-gentle promptings of God. Upon learning all about the Catholic faith and my own, I converted but my heart has slowly undergone conversion throughout my life because of all the many different people placed in my life. Most people have easy flaws to find - but it is more fun to find God in them - He is there - in everyone.
Our world does get smaller and smaller if we judge everyone and that is just so confusing anyways…there’s so much good and bad in all of us.
We’re not supposed to judge anyway - whew! one job I don’t have to do :-)
Catholic friends help grow me in the knowledge and practice of my Catholic faith, but all my friends help show me the many facets of God.
Also, being challenged by non-Catholics in my faith - helps me to learn more about my faith - it was a great help to both my husband and I as we challenged each other, asked questions, etc.
It will be so much easier in Heaven - hope we all get there. We do need friends that help us grow closer to God (some may not have faith but have good “religious-sense” as someone said, or God-sense…ways of being loving and kind to others…that grows my faith as well as a Catholic teaching me the beautiful Rosary prayer). All work together to bring me closer to union with God. Hope God is visible through me to them as well :-)

Posted by anna lisa on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2012 6:56 PM (EDT):
Lisa, maybe as an exercise of “broadening” you could meditate for a few minutes on the possibility that *maybe* just *possibly* the unfathomable happened, and Jesus truly *was* the “suffering” messiah that Isaiah foretold.
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And how is this different from wishful thinking?
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I’m sure every “sinner” wants some one else to take the punishment. After all, Hell is for other people. Why should a perfectly sinless (read innocent) person take the blame for what you did? How is that justice?
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Isn’t the “suffering” messiah just a fall guy for our crimes? Isn’t it worse to let an innocent being take the blame and be executed for our murders?
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Why should a Perfect Being sacrifice Himself so that criminals can be given a clean slate with the opportunity to “sin” again?
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Jesus exists as proof that people can take responsibility for their actions and be eligible for mercy—as demonstrated by His Resurrection. Too many people on this blog seem to think that belief in Jesus makes them better than everyone else, but Jesus affirms the divinity of humanity.
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God manifested Himself in Jesus and demonstrated that God can suffer the human experience of suffering and redemption.
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The “holier than thou” attitude of Catholics perverts this divine revelation. Jesus represents love of humanity; Catholics want to believe themselves “above” humans who don’t “believe.”
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That’s why I’m disgusted with the trend of the conversations on this blog. Jesus was manifested to get humans to understand that being human is divine. Prejudice declares that some humans are not divine because they have different points of view, have different religion, have no religion, and so on.
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There are stories about mirrors that reflect ugly images to good people and beautiful images to evil people. Remember that people are capable of good and evil (free-will) and the reflection you see in the mirror is your opposite.

Wine makes me preachy!

Sally, I don’t know who you mean by “holier than thou.”  You must have switched from the wine.

Catholics are historically the dregs of society.  Catholics have been abusively characterized as yahoos and bumpkins by every snob group in history.

Even in new testament times, the New Catholics were thrown out of the synagogue by “respectable” jews.

And the more “Catholic” you become, the farther out on the spectrum of ostracism you go.  For instance, when the Great Divider, Pres. Obama, visited Notre Dame, the most “Catholic” people there were the protesters, who were mocked and arrested.  Even the lukewarm university president persecuted these people.

When you talk about “holier than thou,” you’re describing people called “pharisees” who hold it over another group commonly referred to as “philistines.”  To pharisees, Catholics are the arch-philistines.

Get your head on straight.

Hey True Democrat, how’s it going bro.?

And apparently blood is no obstacle to the pharisee contagion.  Lisa, you are completely hooked in.  For you, everybody else is indulging in opinion; while you’re “laying out facts.”

To my mind, nothing you’ve said makes any sense at all.  It’s just protestant treacle, regardless of your claimed antiquity for it.

After the “Christ Event” of the almighty God becoming man, there are only three religions, which are ranged in a continuum: Catholic…Protestant…Pagan.  Catholics yeild to the Truth; protestants abscond with it; and pagans fight against it.

Self-identifying Jews (as you say you are) are evenly distributed all across the continuum.

Simcha,
I know that you are a well read kind of gal. My views on friendship have been heavily influenced by the writings of St. Francis de Sales in “An Introduction to the Devout Life”...it is a view that is shared by many a Catholic saint. I find that your article seems to dimiss the idea that one should be guarded in who one calls friend.  Why so much caution suggested by the saints if there is nothing to worry about?

Finally, I’m always astounded by other “abrahamic traditions,” to the point of regurgitation.

The incarnation of God into human flesh was a wildly transformative event.  If the sun had exploded and vaporized all 8 planets, leaving nothing behind but stardust, it could not have been more transformative.  Yet our Jewish brethren insist that the old covenant is still in effect.  Did you miss the memo?

Lisa, you remind me of someone who’s narrowly escaped death in a devastating car crash, and is found wandering aimlessly in a nearby field.  Your thinking is catatonic, rote and completely deranged.

Emerson wrote that if the stars came out only once every 1,000 years, it would be talked about during all the intervening time - with wonder and incredulity.

So when God comes to visit, we: persecute him and his followers, spread malicious lies and slanders, poison the minds of the authorities against them, and pretend that the whole thing never happened?

Very ostrich-like, Lisa.  I would look to some dark association of the past, fix the blame where it lies, and return to reality.

Some things never change.

St. Francis didn’t say..non-Catholic…ew.. He DID say “Let your charity extend to everyone, Philothea, but limit your friendship to those with whom you can share virtuous things” Ch.19 Intro to the Devout Life.

Nice, meaningful post. Weird combox.

Matt B:
“Catholics are historically the dregs of society.  Catholics have been abusively characterized as yahoos and bumpkins by every snob group in history.”
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Have you ever learned of the Holy Roman Empire?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Emperor
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Or the Spanish Inquisition?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
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“And the more “Catholic” you become, the farther out on the spectrum of ostracism you go.  For instance, when the Great Divider, Pres. Obama, visited Notre Dame, the most “Catholic” people there were the protesters, who were mocked and arrested.  Even the lukewarm university president persecuted these people.”
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And with very good reason—Catholics have become exclusive extremists. That is why there was Schism, and the Jesuit Reformation. Religion is dynamic, and the Catholic Church insists on being unchanging. That’s why faith in Catholicism is constantly attacked in the secular world.
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The Catholic Church has acquired an immense amount of wealth, and the Vatican houses most of the priceless art of historical art, yet you say Catholics have been persecuted since the beginning. Puleeeeze!

The Catholic church is unchanging because it is to pass along the faith and tradition unchanged from Jesus. That is her mission. It is like the game telephone down through 2000 years. It is amazing that the words of the consecration are still the very same words that Jesus taught his apostles to say way back at the beginning of the Church. The faith and morals teaching of the church will never change - the same way that the sum of 2+2 will always equal 4. Societies change, rulers change, boundaries change, but the Catholic Church has been around since the time of Jesus. Our presidents change power every 4-8 years, other rulers until they die but Jesus’ power is unchanging and eternal. So is his message. Truth is not relative so that means that teachings on faith and morals which obey natural law just can’t be relative - it is not the role of the church to make it so. Her responsibility is to teach the Truth.

The Vatican is OUR Church - all of the art that it houses belongs to all of the children of God. Like a public library or art museum houses all of those great books and great art - but it is public and available for all to see. Same with the Vatican art. The beautiful work of Michael Angelo in the Sistine Chapel is there for everyone - not privately owned in some person’s home. It was painted not for the Pope but to glorify God and to inspire God’s children—all of us. And most everyone is inspired - across religious boundaries—the awe of that beautiful art.
There is a lot of persecution because the Church does not “progress” on faith and morals teachings—but again, that is not her role - her role is to teach it as it was taught. She is to preserve the teachings of Jesus. Preservation means to protect as it was…not change it into something new. People are not tolerant (esp those promoting the idea of tolerance the most) of the unchanging teachings of the Catholic Church.
What would we do if 2+2 kept changing to a different answer?
OT: The best part of Math I love: the number line - never ending…it was the first mathematical easy to see explanation for me of God going on forever - no beginning, no end… I could see it in Math. The Magisterial teaching on faith and morals and the passing along of the teaching unchanged through the ages makes sense in the same way: 2+2=4  
Fun discussion. I hope this makes sense.

Sally, shibboleths all. 

As you examine the surf on a windy day, you notice the froth blowing across the surface of the waves.  Your references are all frothy and unsubstantial.  Underneath is the where the real action is: the pulse, the power. 

You’re obviously taking your cue from a rabid anticlerical protestant “minister.”  And he’s taking his cue from an intellectually flaccid congregational college.  And they’re taking their cue from a morbidly anti-papist “scriptural scholar,” and he’s taking his cue from a satanic spirit guide disguised as “the spirit of independent thinking.”  This spirit answers to a low-level infernal principality in charge of recycling bad old ideas using modern innovations like the internet and french postcards.

Yes, I know, the bishops are in it just for that fantastic wealth.  There’s so much of it hoarded away behind the Vatican walls that they need slave laborer nuns just to count and catalogue it all.  And to think that it all aggregates from the fat dollar bill I put into the collection basket week in and out.  Imagine if we all tithed!  We might even be able to buy an election.

After reading your amazing expose, I’m opting to move to San Francisco - where the holy people go, apparently.  But I’m drawing the line at becoming a Cardinal fan.  I go with the Giants.

uh… Matt B…I hate to state the obvious, but you should still be charitable even if you don’t agree…

Gee, I sure am glad that my best friend didn’t have that attitude!  She’s the one who planted the first seeds of my conversion to the Catholic Church, but without ever once telling me that I ought to be Catholic. Thanks be to God!

thank you for this lovely article. yes, please be friends with non-Catholics without having a conversion agenda. Perhaps God is already calling them to become Catholic and your friendship could be the catalyst and confirmation. as a protestant who is in the process of converting to the Catholic church, I am grateful to my Catholic friends who patiently answered my questions and challenges and asked *me* questions and challenged me in return. I’ve appreciated to observe their lives and see that their faith is truly integrated into their lives.

please, listen to your friends, encourage them to love God, patiently answer their questions, invite them to church and let them see your love for God.

@Just me
Re: Why might St Francis de Sales caution one to be guarded in friendship? I have personal experience as to why.  Two people very dear to me, sweet, warm hearted, good Catholics, but not discerning in their friendships eventually wound up compromising the very values that once were a big part of their lives and enduring much suffering as a result. It’s heartbreaking to watch that happen in people you love.  There’s a good reason St Paul warned, “Bad company corrupts good morals.”

Just me: Are you one of those confounded slave-laborer nuns? 

Sue, friends don’t let their friends say silly bigoted things.  That’s why I don’t have any friends. 

According to St. Augustine, “Charity is not necessarily pretty.”  But indifference often is.

An habitual lie requires an uncommon response.  Common responses allowed the lie to become habitual in the first place. 

To tolerate a vicious lie is to fondle the dog that bites the hand that feeds it.  Curs need whipping.

If I uncork a lie, I’m sweating.  Against myself I’m betting; and my pants I’m wetting. 

Putting the lie to flight, I alight.  My fear abates: I win the fight. 

And if I free the catiff liar, I give her back the truth, and set her pants on fire.

But yes, Rebecca, you are of course correct.

Posted by Debbie on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 12:32 AM (EDT):
The Catholic church is unchanging because it is to pass along the faith and tradition unchanged from Jesus. That is her mission. It is like the game telephone down through 2000 years. It is amazing that the words of the consecration are still the very same words that Jesus taught his apostles to say way back at the beginning of the Church. The faith and morals teaching of the church will never change - the same way that the sum of 2+2 will always equal 4. Societies change, rulers change, boundaries change, but the Catholic Church has been around since the time of Jesus. Our presidents change power every 4-8 years, other rulers until they die but Jesus’ power is unchanging and eternal. So is his message. Truth is not relative so that means that teachings on faith and morals which obey natural law just can’t be relative - it is not the role of the church to make it so. Her responsibility is to teach the Truth.
/
Debbie, that is very true—it’s a game of telephone and that’s the problem.  The message of the original Catholic Church has been perverted by a 2012 year telephone tag. That’s why there’s all the hate speech and us-vs.-them rhetoric between “Catholics” and “non-Catholics,” “liberals vs. conservatives,“left vs. right.” That’s why a lot of Catholics are complaining that they’re persecuted victims of the secular government.
/
The church’s responsibility is to teach the Truth, but the message is being screwed up by “telephone tag.” It’s the only “excuse” I can guess for the prejudice against “non-Catholics” expressed by the comments on this thread.
.
How else can you reconcile the hatred expressed on this thread with the beauty of Jesus Christ?

Sally, I’m not seeing hatred expressed on this thread at all.  When the Los Angeles Lakers play basketball it’s both quantitatively and qualitatively different from what happens in your local high school gymnasium.  And your average CYO referee would quail in outrage and indignation over Michael Jordan giving Charles Barkley an “innocent nudge.”

What you’re rebelling over is the absurd and unlikely fact that the Church has perdured in Truth for over 2000 years.  This is the consternation behind your “telephone tag” remark.  But in fact, it is true.  This is one proof that the Church is Spirit-filled and Spirit led, as Christ promised (extensively) in John 14 through 17.  If we’re miraculously exempt from the constraints of every human organization, it’s because Jesus specifically asked his Father for it, and God so willed.

Of course, in practice you’re claiming even bigger things for the “church” you talk about in your comment:  you’re claiming that every person who calls himself or herself a “christian” is personally inerrent - if they only “read the word of God.”  You yourself are standing obstinately against revealed truth, and 2000 years of unbroken, authoritative interpretation.  You’re saying magisterial authority is a fraud, but that you yourself (personally) have an equivalent authority.

Once again, I don’t see hatred in this thread, except for the non-Catholics who are obviously carrying water for Satan.  But to respond to your question about a reconciliation to the beauty of Jesus: if the Gospels are any indication, the apostles were a rollicking band of rough, plainspoken and practical men.  They did not always agree, or act and speak especially “charitably.”  Viz. the letters of John (re antichrists), James (wind-driven surf), Peter (false prophets), and Jude (satanic pretenders). 

But if you’re still unhappy, and looking for a nice catty alternative to the true Church of God, try your local beauty parlor, or an evangelical coffee shop.

Only Matt could turn a timely discussion of the beauty of friendship between different faiths into exhibit A for Catholic intolerance. You are bang on with your diagnosis of why you have no friends.

Great article.  Weird combox.  Were it not for Catholics loving me authentically and without agenda, I would never have converted.  I came out of a sect where we were explicitly discouraged from having any kind of emotional closeness with anyone who wasn’t our kind of Christian.  Fortunately in my professional life I had gotten to know those forbidden people and became true friends with some, since when it was time to leave an abusive marriage, the sect was no help, and the Catholics and agnostics saved my life.

I find that if I confine my self to like-minded people in any frame (religion, politics, whatever), I lose sight of the bigger picture.  Sure, I long for a day when some of my close friends will know Jesus, but the friendships are still beyond price.

Goodness gracious….this comment sections imploded fairly quickly on!  Apparently there are are several people who do not seem to grasp that this is an article in a Catholic publication, written by and for Catholics, and hence has an intended audience.

At the risk of being uncharitable, there are tons and tons of blogs and message boards where religions and their merits and faults are discussed ad nauseum.  Perhaps some of our recent writers whould find a broader base to debate elsewhere?  Really, it would benefit no one if went to a site devoted to the betterment of African-American men, and started carrying on about how racist, sexist, and just darn WRONG they all were for trying to live stronger and better lives.

It would make no sense…..and neither do many of these comments!

Maybe Telephone isn’t the best analogy because you are right, the message gets distorted when we play this game in our current period of time. But, in the case of the Catholic church, the message is in writing which is most reliable. Telephone or storytelling used to be much more accurate before most of us became literate. We can see the written teaching unchanged throughout time. The words of the consecration, the words of the Bible, etc. The teachings of faith and morals that we read about in the Catechism of the Catholic Church are the same as they were 2000 years ago. It is easy to see this when you go back and study the early church.

The Church wrote the Bible and has the authority to interpret it.
But, when people started splitting away from that authority, the message started to change and get distorted - that is why there are so many different Christian faith beliefs out there and they keep splintering.
How is it that there are so many? Which one has the true authority? It is a question that bears asking. I believed there was an authority and that I would be able to find this Truth untainted somewhere…that is when I set about looking for it.
I also studying Jesus’ words and actions from the Bible. He is challenging!

Over the past year I have become better friends with a Buddhist, and discussions about our different beliefs have actually helped to strengthen my faith.  I was surprised at the similarities between the faiths; for every “truth” of Buddhism there is a corresponding tenet of our Catholic faith.  I had never thought there could be common ground between the two.  It started to make sense to me only when I realized that both religions are built on and designed to “fit” human nature.  I think for some who think catholicism has to be the foundation, friendship evokes a mentality of preserving the catholic compound.  It is too bad, because there are a lot of kind and intelligent people out there.

There’s a lot of sanctimonious judmentalism here, directed towards “a reader’s” holy advice-giving friends. Let’s analyze: “What draws people to be friends is that they see the same truth. They share it.” (C.S. Lewis) - IOW, if the best and most important truth is your Catholic faith, then your best friend should be Catholic, no? If on the most important questions you disagree with someone, ideally you should hope to find a better best friend than that person. Simcha seems to reduce friendship to what Aristotle would call friendship of pleasure. But the more perfect form of friendship is that which pursues the good and where the friend becomes another self in a joint pursuit of the good. If your Catholic faith is central to your conception of the good, it would seem to follow that you can only be best friends (in the true sense) with another Catholic. (And I don’t care who calls me a jerk for pointing this out.)

Posted by Evelyn on Wednesday, Nov 28, 2012 8:59 AM (EDT):Great article.  Weird combox.”
*************************
I think you could apply that to every other thread here.The weirdness of free cyber-speech in action.
There are thoughtful comments, too, to be fair.

I would have agreed with David M not that long ago, but as my experience grows, I’m realizing that there is a real place in my life for true, close friendships with people who do not share my faith, *so long as they are seekers after the Truth*  I don’t have a BFF relationship with anybody, so I don’t know about that in particular.  I just know that my life and faith have become richer now that I am open to close relationships with people of other faiths.

After reading so many hateful comments on this comment thread, perhaps it is best that RCs have friends who are RCs only.  That way the RCs quarantine themselves from the rest of us and do not infect the rest of us with their expressions of hate, bigotry, intolerance, false sense of superiority, and false triumphalism.  I applaud the Jesus, an observant Jew, who ate with tax collectors and sinners.  He understood that the “heathens” were much better company than the so-called religious people.  If the hateful comments on this thread are an example of how the RCC is teaching its followers these days, then the RCC will not be attracting many new members and will fact rapidly become maginalized and insignificant (and perhaps that is a silver lining).  The world does not need more of the hate and intolerance that RCs are expressing on this comment thread.

Lisa, the Church has survived for two thousand years, and will continue to exist on earth far longer than anyone commenting here….as Christ promised.

(btw, “hate” and “intolerance” are leveled at the Church and its members for daring to speak the Truth.  The Truth will never change.)

Pattie,

It always amazes me when people tout the age of the RCC as a way to say that the RCC will always survive.  Judaidm is 4,500 yrs old, almoat twice the age of christianity.  So the better case is to be a Jew—so we have been around much much longer than the RCC.

And if you think your RCC has not cahnged, you have not read much hoistory of the RCC

Evelyn, I’m not sure you’re disagreeing with me. I never said anything about not having close relationships with people of other faiths. You can certainly have real friendships in spite of profound differences in belief. But still - don’t you think that your friendship would be much better if, say, your Jewish friend came to view Jesus and the Church in the same way as you? (Or, if you’re Jewish, if your Catholic friend came to agree with you about who Jesus really was?) If not, are you really a friend of the truth? (Aristotle criticized his Platonist friends, noting that friendship with the truth came first.) Like St. Augustine said, our hearts are restless until they rest in God, which implies until they rest in the truth, and I think our friendships are necessarily restless and incomplete too, to the extent that they do not rest in a common apprehension of the truth.

Here’s from an article I saw online.It kind of explains my friend’s attitude towards assimilation & it’s a good read:

Are US Jews assimilating out of existence?
By Rod Dreher

“...Half of the non-Orthodox children, moreover, marry non-Jews, and very few children of mixed marriages will remain Jewish. As Reform Rabbi Lance J Sussman wrote in 2010, “With the exception of a number of Orthodox communities and a few other bright spots in or just off the mainstream of Jewish religious life, American Judaism is in precipitous decline … the Reform movement has probably contracted by a full third in the last ten years!”

Full article through link:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/are-us-jews-assimilating-out-of-existence/

Simcha,
I often enjoy reading your point of view…but I am always dismayed at the insults and childish emotionally driven comments in the combox. Saints wouldn’t talk this way. Maybe if you yourself would refrain from using insults in your writing (ie. jerks…holier than thou) and not allow them in the combox..you being the moderator..you could raise the level of the discussion to where I think you would actually like to go…a fruitful discussion opening minds and hearts.

Kathleen.

Jews and Judaism are doing just fine. No one is “being assimilated out of existence”.  Judaism, while it does not seek converts, does bring in converts for various reasons.  Yes, Jews marry out of Judaism, but RCs and other Christians do convert to Judaism for marriage and for other reasons.  And remember, Jews live in other parts of the world beside the US and Israel.  Germany is seeing a resurgence of Judaism. Judaism is alive and well in Europe, in India, in Asia and in Africa.  We have been around for 4,500 yrs and will will alsys be around, because God wills it!  Yes, we are a minority, but that’s OK.  It does mean we are going away.

Whoops, I meant wot It does NOT mean we are going away!

Debbie,

The RCCC did not write the Bible.  All the books that christians call the “Old Testament” were written by Jews thousands of yrs before the RCC came into existence.  Early Christians wrote what is called the ” New Testament”—but again, these books were written long before there was an RCC.  One can say that the RCC, the in 4th century CE, compiled/arranged writings from numerous sources into a “canon” for christians. That canon is now called the Bible.  But the RCC did not write the Bible.  And even the arrangement of the books in Bible differs from the RCC, Protestant denominations, Judaism, Grek, Russian & other Orhtodox churches.

Did someone named Debbie actually claim that the RCC wrote the Bible? Weird… What does that have to do with friendship?

Here’s some more optimistic news from the NY Times, but it also cites declining numbers among the non-Orthodox:

“After decades of decline, the Jewish population of New York City is growing again, increasing to nearly 1.1 million, fueled by the “explosive” growth of the Hasidic and other Orthodox communities,

The New York area’s Jewish population is the largest in the world outside of Israel. It composes about one-third of the American Jewish population”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/nyregion/new-yorks-jewish-population-is-growing-again.html?_r=0

DavidM, of course a friendship would be more complete if faith were also shared.  What I’m objecting to is the notion (which maybe isn’t what you’re trying to say) that a friendship should be limited at some point because the other person isn’t of like faith or depth of faith.  My circle of closest friends includes a cafeteria Catholic, four very orthodox Catholics, a thoughtful agnostic, two not thoughtful agnostics-by-default, and a deeply thoughtful flat out atheist. Each friendship has it’s place in my life and has a very different flavor.  I both seek and share spiritual counsel with all of these people.  They ebb and flow as all relationships do throughout the seasons of life.  But I no longer concern myself with emotional intimacy somehow being out of bounds based on faith.  They know about my faith and see it in action, but this doesn’t guarantee conversion, and I no longer agree with the folks who used to tell me that I shouldn’t invest myself unless I saw imminent conversion.  My friends are worth my time and energy because they are created in the image of God, whether they know it or not.

Wow, so many layers going on here.  I think we can all agree that the word friendship in the English language doesn’t suffice.  There is FRIENDSHIP, Friendship, and friendship.  It’s as silly as having only one word for love. 
@Just me, I really understand your concern.  I tried my best to keep my teens in a bubble too.  It still bothers me how we as mothers must let go of control in a world that sometimes seems like it has gone mad.  I really don’t think retreating into a Catholic ghetto is the solution though. I think strong, united parents that LOVE is.  Perhaps it is different where you live, but from what I have experienced in the past, practicing a strict, separatist Catholicism can foster a kind of elitism and pride that can be very subtle and insidious.  If all of us here have anything in common, it is our natural proclivity to pride, (with or without a headscarf).  We can see it in all it’s forms: elitism, boastfulness, competitiveness, insulting accusations, haughtiness, the need to “school” others when we are glaringly wet behind the ears…otherwise known as being a jerk.  Don’t we all need to battle our inner jerk?  Let’s be honest.
My prayer today:  God, please help me not to be a jerk.  All for you, I’m lost without you (and a jerk).

Kathleen,

Yes, the Orthdox and Hasidic tend to have large families.  And that’s a good thing given the numbers of Jews lost to the Shoah. Some of the children born into Orthodox and Hasidic families will not remain Jews throoughtout their lives or some of them will remain Jewish but leave the Orthodox or Hasdic movements and join another movement within Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Renewal, Modern Orthodox).

Evelyn, I wonder what you make of this: “...something so basic is missing. No common lens to interpret the world, speaking different languages almost.” - This claim is a claim about reality. When you look at the birth of a child, or a sunset, or a natural disaster, or the death of loved one, or good food or music, or Hindu culture, or whatever - isn’t all of this fundamentally different depending on whether you believe in God or not (and depending on what God you believe in)? It’s not that YOU limit the friendship, it’s that the friendship is necessarily limited because of your lack of shared understanding about what everything is, where it comes from, and what its purpose is. Or do you not experience that?

Anna Lisa,
I find it funny how the arguments go to extremes. I didn’t advocate a strict Catholic-only setting…not even once. I said BE CAREFUL…for every situation I have seen where there is a great friendship with a non- catholic, there are as many situations where the faith has been put aside and eventually lost…. all the saints have advocated prudence. Not this “open to everything or else your closed in and hostile to the outside”...not so. Balance folks.

As for language…insults have no place in reasoned and charitable discourse…ever. It always brings down the level of discussion…and eventually only insults are left.

I claimed that the Church wrote the Bible (I didn’t say RCC)and yes, I suppose this is off-topic from “friendship” but was in response to other statements - as is common among “friendly” conversation:-) How the Bible was compiled was important for me to learn about in my journey to my faith through my friends - in conversations like these- Forgive if I go on too much - it is exciting and I am in love with my faith, learning, and God.

The Bible- It is right about the Jews writing the Torah and Pentateuch, what is largely the Old Testament—but the Old Testament is different depending on if you are Catholic or Protestant.  But the first Canon (compilation of the Old Testament)that the Church used in the 1rst and 2nd Century was the Greek Canon called the Septuagint (put together by the Jews) which had all of the books of the Old Testament that the Catholics currently use today. The Jewish later (in 2nd Century) took out some of the books of the Septuagint after the Greek Canon was compiled and that was called the Palestinian Canon (again, developed in the 2nd Century). This is what the Protestants adopted during the Reformation. Also during the Reformation, the Protestants also removed some of the New Testament books that had been written and compiled by the early Church fathers. 
So the original Bible of the Church was made up of a compilation of the actual writings that Jesus learned as a child (very cool!) - so yes, before Christians were around. The reason they were all included is because Jesus quoted from the different resources so it was known from where he studied.
The Church considers Jesus the fulfillment of the Jewish faith. The Church believes it is the continuation of the history of the Jews.  The Catholic faith believes that the Messiah has come while the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. This story of Jesus coming is now a part of the Church canon. But when the Jews perceive their Messiah has come, won’t those new messages be compiled together and be considered the continuation of their history?
It is correct to say the Jewish religion has been around longer - yes, definitely. This is where that term “chosen people” comes from - God chose to reveal Himself to the Jews. So blessed!!  The Church does trace its heritage way back to God revealing Himself to the Israelites—just as most Christian faiths can trace their history back to the same beginning so can also claim the same history—which means back through the Reformation and then back through the Catholic church to that first early Church. The Catholic Church claims Pentecost - the descent of the Holy Spirit as its birthday so that is where that 2000 years comes from and that is where the split from the Jewish religion came.
So, the question for me was (I was a Protestant Lutheran)- how far back do I go to my roots? I wondered this and got back to the am I Jewish or do I believe in Jesus as the Messiah? Has the Messiah, promised to the Jews, come or not? I believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament so that put me in the Jesus is Messiah category. Then I wanted to know what Church looks most like that first early Church- the Church that was set up by those who knew Jesus and His followers most? This led me to the Early Church Fathers and the Catholic faith looked to me most like that Early Church. Certainly, the Truth is still alive today - but which Truth? Which faith holds that Truth? Which compilation of the Christian faith holds the authority? Again, for me, it made sense that it would look most like that earliest Church and would be easy to trace without breaks back to that first Church. That led me to the Catholic faith.
This is my faith journey through thought and prayer and friends—Jewish, Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, , saints, etc…) Right or wrong is for each of us to discern but to love each other as we question and grow and listen is how we all get closer to God (and each other)- which is the point over all. We should each believe wholeheartedly that the faith we hold is the one, true, faith, or else why be in that faith? For me it is not a snobby statement of I am right you are wrong but a statement of what I believe is True. What I respect about my friends of other faiths is their love, thought, prayer, discernment and quest for God and for Truth.
That is the common bond that my deepest friendships are based on whether they’ve found that same faith in the Catholic church or elsewhere.
History above about compilation of the Bible is from my daughter and her Theology notes. I do realize the history is through a Catholic bias and that histories can look different through different biases…so am curious if there are discrepancies. Thanks for reading. I know I am long-winded. Whew.

Just Me,

There is really no need for RCs to “BE CAREFUL” of having non-RC friends.  Loss of faith has nothing to with a non-RC friend.  If a RC loses his/her faith, than perhaps that faith was not very strong, perhaps that RC became dillusioned with the RCC, perhaps God has called that RC to a differnet path (yes God can and does do that).  It seems you are placing blame in the wrong place, on thewrong person (the non-RC). 
What you are calling balance, actually seems to be suspicion of anyone not RC. Is the faith of RC really so fragile???

Dear Lisa,
What do Jews envision their Messiah to be, look like? It is not a rhetorical question (except when I wonder this around people that are not Jewish. Would love to hear from you on this :-) ).
I wonder if it is similar to what Christians are waiting for in the Second Coming? I wonder, if we are both waiting for the same thing?
If so, that is pretty cool, eh? Sort of an affirmation that God has a plan for all of us no matter what faith we happen to be at a given time.

Lisa Kaiser - did I not come across something of yurs last Thursday?

Would anyone mind if I used the decline and fall of this combox for my Action Research paper this spring for my graduate studies? I promise I’ll change all of your pseudonyms to brand new pseudonyms…

Lisa Kaiser,
Your generalized question about ‘the faith of RC’ is really quite silly. Sometimes faith IS quite fragile (obviously!), but regardless, it is always precious (a pearl of great price) and should always be carefully guarded and cultivated. For starters, perhaps you could reflect on the parable of the sower (see Matthew 13, for example) if you’re interested in better understanding the Christian perspective on faith.

Debbie,

Judaism is not monolithic re the messiah.  Judaism offers a range of views on the subject. Judaism is “more about deed than creed”, there is not a lot of conern about which idea re the messiah is “right” (or wrong). I will cite some thoughts from articles found a very good web site:  www.myjewishlearning.com.

Broadly speaking, the Messiah will be a descendant of King David who, in the future, will reign over a peaceful and prosperous Israel.

According to some—most prominently, Maimonides—this is all he is. The Messiah is not a wonderworker, nor is the messianic era a miraculous age. In fact, according to Maimonides, the Messiah will die and be succeeded by his sons. This tradition of a political (and possibly military) redeemer dates to the age of the latter prophets, who living after the peak years of the Israelite monarchy, looked forward to a time when Jewish self-rule would be restored.

Other thinkers and texts stress the utopian—not the restorative—nature of the messianic era and suggest that the age of the Messiah will be a super-natural time. According to one talmudic source, for example, humans will have only good inclinations in the messianic era (Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a).

For many—but by no means all—contemporary Jews, the messianic idea is as important now as it has been in the past. However, some moderns have rejected the idea that the messianic age will be defined by the arrival of an individual Messiah, and instead look to the messianic dream as a source of hope for a perfected and peaceful world.

Another article says this:  As for the specifics of the messianic age, as with most theological issues, rabbinic literature has no uniform theory or theology. Generally speaking, the messianic era will be proceeded by Jewish suffering, the “birth pangs” of the Messiah. Afterwards, the exiled Jewish community will return to Israel, the Davidic monarchy will be restored, and all of humanity will recognize the true God. (these familiar themes are also found in the NT’s Book of Revelation). Whether there will be supernatural occurrences is a matter of debate.

What Jews are looking in a messiah is different than what Christians are looking for.  It seems Christians are looking for a second coming of Jesus, whom Christains see as God.  And for Jews, the idea that Jesus has a “second coming” is one of the primary reasons Jews do not beleive that Jesus was a messiah or that he was/is God.  For Jews, the coming the the messah/messianic age will happen once, it will be self-evident (like the surnise) and will require no act of faith: knowledge of the messiah will cover the earth like an ocean. 

And I am not certain what Muslims may be looking for—but I think they have theology re a messiah/end of the world.

Hope this is helpful

David M,

Perhaps you missed y point to Just Me.  My point was that we all have to take responsiblity for our faith.  That non-RC friends are not a danger to any RC’s faith.  I am familiar with the parable of the sower—which is why I indicated that if an RC loses his/her faith, perhaps that faith was not very strong to begin with (like a seed that has not taken root).  An RC may lose his/her faith because of dillusionment with the RCC (the RCC seems rife with scandal these days), or perhaps God has called an rC toa different path (yes, God can & does do that).  So nothing silly in my comment.  I am just saying that non-RC friends should not be viewed with suspicion or blamed if an RC loses his/her faith.  The responsibility for an Rc’s faith belongs with the individual RC.

I haven’t seen any mention yet of John 15:18-19 or Luke 6:22 and 25 in this thread. That is, if people who despise the teaching of the Catholic Church nevertheless are comfortable around us, are we doing everything right?

Debbie,

Judaism offers a range of view re the messiah.  Judaism is not amonolithic when it comes to this idea (and many others!).  Judaism is “more about deed than creed”.  In Judaism discussion about a messiah and/or a messianic age comes from scripture (yes from Isiah and other scriputral sources), from the Talmud, from scholars (medieval to contemporary).

I will set out some general ideas found in articles ona very good web site:  www.my jewishlearning.com.

Broadly speaking, the Messiah will be a descendant of King David who, in the future, will reign over a peaceful and prosperous Israel.

According to some—most prominently, Maimonides—this is all he is. The Messiah is not a wonderworker, nor is the messianic era a miraculous age. In fact, according to Maimonides, the Messiah will die and be succeeded by his sons. This tradition of a political (and possibly military) redeemer dates to the age of the latter prophets, who living after the peak years of the Israelite monarchy, looked forward to a time when Jewish self-rule would be restored.

Other thinkers and texts stress the utopian—not the restorative—nature of the messianic era and suggest that the age of the Messiah will be a super-natural time. According to one talmudic source, for example, humans will have only good inclinations in the messianic era (Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a).

As for the specifics of the messianic age, as with most theological issues, rabbinic literature has no uniform theory or theology. Generally speaking, the messianic era will be proceeded by Jewish suffering, the “birth pangs” of the Messiah. Afterwards, the exiled Jewish community will return to Israel, the Davidic monarchy will be restored, and all of humanity will recognize the true God. Whether there will be supernatural occurrences is a matter of debate.

So Jews are looking for something different in a messiah/messianic age than are Christians.  And I am not certain what Muslims may be looking for, but I think Islam has theology re a messiah/end of the world.

Hope this is helpful.

Lisa,
I don’t think I missed your point. I think you’re missing the point that taking responsibility for one’s faith involves taking concrete steps to guard and cultivate one’s faith, including being cautious about the company we keep.
“He that walks with the wise, shall be wise: a friend of fools shall become like to them.” -Proverbs 13:20

Hieronymus Illinensis,

The gospel citations you mention are not about the RCC.  The citation from John is Jesus confirming that he is teaching from the Torah.  The citation from Luke is more about the problems that those who beleive that Jeus is messiah and/or God will encounter from Jews (we acknowledge that God is One, that God is not a trinity).  the citation from Luke is not specifically about the the RCC or RC or RCism.

Yes non-RCs have RC friends.  And that is about liking individuals rather than about the RCC or RCism.

As for doing something right, let me refer you to Zechariah 8:22-23.

...also: “the fool has said in his heart, ‘there is no God’” (Psalm 14). Does that mean don’t be friendly to atheists or reject friendship with such fools? Of course not, but it certainly doesn’t mean “don’t worry about it - if you can’t handle the company and influence of fools then maybe God just doesn’t want you to keep your faith.”

“perhaps God has called an RC to a different path (yes, God can & does do that)” - I appreciate you sharing your opinion, but I’m curious: how do you know this?

DavidM,

I know this from personal experience and personal observation and from my friends who were RCs but who are now Jews or who are now of other faiths.

Mary, feel free to diagram this combox! We begin with comments from interested parties about the actual subject, and at some point the lunatics come out and grab their personal soapbox for the ad hominum attacks.  HAve seen this on many Catholic sites! Do not understand the need to randomly fly one’s crazzeee flag all over the ‘net!

This, btw, is why we have medications available!

DavidM,

I did not say that “maybe God doesn’t wnat you to keep your faith”.  My point is that a person with genuine faith has nothing to fear from or be suspicious about re a person of no faith or of a different faith.  Its not about the “other person”.

Lisa:
Regarding your personal experience, obviously that is susceptible of other interpretations. “My friend believes God called her to another faith” does not imply “God called my friend to another faith.” (I presume you are aware of this??)
Regarding your opinion about the individualistic, self-sufficient nature of ‘genuine faith,’ let me just assure you that your view is opposed to the Christian view of the matter, so while you are free to hold it, please try to understand that it is not just obviously true (and maybe even consider the possibility that it is false!).

I don’t know much about my family history—my family was very stingy with the sharing and all—but I do know my paternal grandmother was half Irish Catholic, half Jewish.  Her father was the son of immigrant Hungarian Jews and he fell in love with an Irish Catholic lass who also had immigrant parents. She agreed to marry him as long as they could raise the children Catholic.  He agreed, and now I’m here, cradle Catholic and revert.

Great article Simcha! It is patently absurd that no one mentioned the They Might Be Giants reference in the title (You and Your Racist Friend). Of course, I only searched the comments since there is no way I was going to read all of those tangents. The time off Purgatory would not be worth it.

DavidM,

Since I am living my life and not you, I know hos God has worked/works in my life.  my interpretation is correct.  As for my friends—who are smart people of deep faith, there is no reason to distrust what they tell me.
Your skepticism indicates that you think that RCism is the only valid faith, that other faiths are inferior, that God wills only RCism to exist in the world, that God only works in the lives of RCs that RCism is better than anything else, that God could noooot possibly call people to inferior/wrong faith traditions like Judaism, etc.  That when it does happen, that must be a totally incorrect/false interpretation or a lie. The false triumphalism and false superiority that some RCs strut out is just insulting and condescending.

Just me, I don’t know about you, but it took me about 16 years of parenthood, five kids, and 17 years of marriage, to cut through all the b.s, and say…“Hey. Stop being a jerk.”  It was really quite effective, and used economy of language.  I save it for critical moments, even past sufficient behavioral proof to call it out… Being the mother of a small army has a way of doing that. I don’t miss: pouting, martyred expressions, passive-aggressive flowery language, and pointed insinuations.
I just hope I don’t up the ante one of these days and turn into a battle ax.  God forbid.
Anyhow, I think the whole friend language is a matter of semantics, and unbeknownst to us here, we all probably agree with each other generally.  Except of course for the extremists, and we’ve already established that they are a little poopy, and exasperatingly holier-than-thou. :)

Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your response - it was helpful and I enjoyed reading it.

You said “Broadly speaking, the Messiah will be a descendant of King David who, in the future, will reign over a peaceful and prosperous Israel.”
I think that is awesome! In the Catholic view - Jesus is a descendent of David and when He comes again He will rule over Israel and the whole world.
Like the Jewish Messiah. I guess the descrepency is whether or not that person is Jesus or a different Messiah.

You wrote “Other thinkers and texts stress the utopian—not the restorative—nature of the messianic era and suggest that the age of the Messiah will be a super-natural time. According to one talmudic source, for example, humans will have only good inclinations in the messianic era (Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a). “
I think this is not too far off what Catholics believe about end times.

You wrote “As for the specifics of the messianic age, as with most theological issues, rabbinic literature has no uniform theory or theology. Generally speaking, the messianic era will be proceeded by Jewish suffering, the “birth pangs” of the Messiah. Afterwards, the exiled Jewish community will return to Israel, the Davidic monarchy will be restored, and all of humanity will recognize the true God. Whether there will be supernatural occurrences is a matter of debate.”
I do believe that Catholic theology speculates as well about this end time suffering and birth pangs for all before the Messiah comes (in our view-again)So, not so far off from what the Jewish faith sees coming.

You wrote “So Jews are looking for something different in a messiah/messianic age than are Christians.  And I am not certain what Muslims may be looking for, but I think Islam has theology re a messiah/end of the world.”
I don’t see it as too different - just maybe that the second coming of Christ could possibly be your Messiah as well- that in the end we share the same Messiah? :-) It seems like a beautiful theory doesn’t it? In the Catholic Church we believe that the Jewish religion exists until the end of time and plays a particular and special role in Salvation History. So, it would follow, that it is God’s plan to have both Catholics and Jewish in the world at the same time. So one is not better than the other. We need to be where God wants us to be to fulfill His plan.
I do understand it is not as simple as that and that I am not a Theologian and Catholic teaching and Jewish teaching about end times do differ…but it does seem to me that both are supposed to be here for specific purposes and I am so excited to someday find out all about it :-) God is amazing in how He puts it all together and we can certainly agree that we are both celebrating the same God.

Thank you again for the link and your responses.
I am curious, why are you reading a Catholic blog? Glad you are here - it is nice to learn about other viewpoints.

@Lisa, you need to come to terms with something. You are on a Catholic website.  We don’t apologize for the fact that we, as Christians believe that Jesus is the unblemished lamb of God, son of Mary, son of God and descendent of David, born in Bethlehem, the city of David.  We believe He is the fulfillment of all the promises the prophets foretold.  We believe God Himself took human flesh, and died as THE sin offering, that no carnal animal, or blood on a doorway could effect.  All of the burnt offerings that took place, and all the serpents on staffs raised up, yes even Abraham strapping Isaac to an altar only foreshadowed *His* sacrifice. No blood other than His could ever save us.  We don’t have pride in ourselves, we have pride that HE, as our redeemer, whom we have accepted, has raised us to the status of sons and daughters of God himself.

Anna Lisa

Christians are not he only sons and daughters of God “himself”.  Be proud of your faith, beleive what you are led to beleive. but realize that there are 3 Abrahamic traidtions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  We all beleive int he smae God (in different ways and we are all sons and daughters of God).  Christianity is not better than or triumphant over Judaism or Islam.

Anna Lisa,
One last laugh before I leave….after 17 years of marriage and 9 kids…I will definitely tell my 15 son to “Stop being a jerk”...but that is because it isn’t meant to be a fruitful discussion…it’s an ORDER! :)With 7 boys…it get the need for economy of language
God Bless

15 year old son ...oops

@JimmyV - at least one person did catch the reference, but used TMBG, so wouldn’t be in your search.

Here’s a long story made very short:

I once was an agnostic heathen.
I met a Catholic young woman with whom I had a lot of non-spiritual things in common.
We became best friends.
She prayed for me A LOT. 
She entered a cloistered convent.
I converted to Catholicism.

If she wouldn’t have been willing to be my best friend, I wouldn’t have been subtly drawn into the Church, and I would most likely still be an agnostic heathen.

@Lisa, YES.  We are all sons and daughters of God.  God Bless you.
.
@Just me, high five sister,:)! I’m about to clock 27 years of marriage (teen bride, not so long story :)  Have six sons, mouthy 16 y.o.!(buried another baby son, summer before last…), two daughters, and am prayerfully hoping for my 7.5 week little one, in utero. 
.
Out the door to get the 6 y.o.—and asking God’s blessings on you and yours too. :) :) :)

@JimmyV: Search again, this time for “TMBG”.

**Evelyn, I wonder what you make of this: “...something so basic is missing.
No common lens to interpret the world, speaking different languages almost.”**

Actually, I work with foreign nationals, so I am accustomed to a language and cultural barrier.  It is not necessarily something missing, but just something quite different, and there are many workarounds.  When verbal language is difficult, we speak slowly, we simplify, we pantomime, and we mutually choose to do what it takes to communicate well and positively, always assuming the best and choosing not to take offense.  It is much the same with my close friends who are not Catholic/Christian.  We are committed to doing the work of the relationship, and so we figure things out.  I often wish my Catholic, American, native-English-speaker friends were so willing to put aside presumptions and do the work of real communication.

One LAST comment to Anna Lisa….I will pray for you, you for me :) I am due in April. My name is Natalie, nice to meet you!

Natalie, I would be so grateful and honored to do the same, thank you!  Very nice to meet you too. :)

At 40 years of age, I “discovered God” because I was compelled to attend church for a period of time “for the sake of a young person.”  I went for her sake and ending up staying for my sake.  As a youth, I had spent years in church with my mother, but by high school had dismissed God as an irrelevant possibility.  Many years later, at the turning point of faith, I was struck by the line drawn between my old world (agnostics & atheists) and my new world of Christian brothers and sisters.  If not for the young person drawing me to church, I would still be isolated in a world alien and even hostile to faith…unless a very kindly Christian would have taken it upon herself to befriend me.  I had no Christian friends.  I had no way to see the power of Christ in the life of another.  Unfortunately, some Christian programs I have seen understand the value of friendship with non-Christians, but they seem to have twisted the emphasis to manipulation, using friendship to “buy” a soul.  That is not friendship.  In my faith walk, I have made it a point to live on both sides of the line.  Jesus arrived in the world as the first Christian.  Imagine if he had sequestered himself for the sake of purity!  :)  My adopted St. Maximillian celebrated special non-Catholic ceremonies for Hindus and Jews in the Nazi prison camps.  He lived his Christian faith boldly, but never pressed others for conversion.  In spite of this, many did convert…because they saw Christ in the love and spirit of this great Saint.  May we all be so fortunate as to have this saving impact on a friend who would have died without Christ except for our genuine loving friendship.

Why are ardently self proclaimed Catholics so Hateful and Ignorant of Other Religious or Sects?
.
Do you even bother to meet people and have friends from other faiths or sects? Or are you just too arrogant (which is looked down upon in all the religions mentioned above) to learn? Are you ignorant and like it that way? Or does your religion tell you to hate? If the answer is yes to the last three questions then I suggest you read your holy book and learn what it really means to be religious.
,
Those that hate other people for their religions are not really practicing their own religion. They are just hateful people that profess to be practicing a religion.
.

The Roman Catholic Church has the inalienable right and duty to convert any person to Christianity, Pope Benedict XVI said Saturday.
/
Evangelism is a central mission of the Church, the pope told a Vatican body that encourages Catholic missionary activity.
/
The appeal for the conversion of “all nations,” attributed to Jesus Christ in the Gospels, remains “an obligatory mandate for the entire Church and for every believer in Christ,” the pontiff said.
/
“This apostolic commitment is both a duty and an inalienable right, the very expression of religious freedom with its moral, social and political dimensions,” he said.
/
[...] In December, the Vatican published a doctrinal note reaffirming the mission of all the faithful to seek to convert non-Catholics including members of other Christian denominations, while avoiding placing undue pressure on them.
/
I guess that’s why Simcha and others here treat “non-Catholics” as sub-human aliens. No wonder non-Catholics don’t want to be Catholic.

@Jane Jimenez
I am so happy for you that you found a good friend who was able to lead you to Christ! You seem to be very happy in your new faith.  I am a little curious about why you would have a problem with other people trying to do the same for others?  To me, it does not seem manipulative, on the contrary, it seems very warm and loving, the best kind of genuine: “Christ is the source of happiness.  I want this other people to be happy.  Therefore I will be friends with them and try to lead them to Christ.”  It just does not make much sense to me to say, “Christ is the source of happiness.  I want this other people to be happy.  Therefore I will be friends with them. But I’m not going to try and lead them to Christ.” Whyever not?

My friends, both believers and non-believers, are images of Chris to me.  I see a child of God.  That may sound corny to you but that’s how I see it.  Sometimes, my non-believing friends say or do things that I don’t agree with or engage in.  However, it would be a travesty for me not to engage their friendship and share my life of faith with them.  I don’t push my faith on them but I show it by the way I live.  What troubles me is this “holier than thou” attitude of people of faith that will not consider having a friend that is non-believer.  Unfortunately, because of this way of thinking, I’ve seen a friend lose his faith and abondoned it.  A big reason that he cites is the hypocrisy of people of faith not accepting him as he is.  When non-believers say you must be perfect or holy, Irespond “I am in need of God and His Church because I am sinner and striving to be good and holy”  Maybe a good dose of humility is the way to approach the New Evagelization

In response to Sally’s comment above re the Pope’s comments on conversion of non-Christians (and re Jews specfically):

On August 13, 2002, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and the leaders of the Reform and Conservative Judaism issued a joint statement called Reflections on Covenant & Mission.  The statement affirms that the Jews should not be targeted for coversion to Christianity because Jews have a distinctive witness to God in human history.  Addressing RCs, Pope John Paul II said, ” God chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and made with them a covenant of eternal love which was never revoked.”

The RCC is not the faith with inalienable rights.  Every faith tradition has the inalienable right to to exist, to worship as it is led to worhsip.  Every faith tradition ahs the inalienable right to be left alone by the RCC and by RCs with misguided intentions to convert people.  For 600 yrs during the Inquistion in Europe, the RCC tortured and murdered Jews, forced Jews to convert upon pain of death, forced Jews to live in segregated areas in European cities, closed professions to Jews, taxed Jews, expelled Jews from England and Spain, closed universities to Jews—yet Jews remain.  The RCC did its best to destroy Jews and Judasim, yet we remain.  That is because, as Pope John Paul II explained to RCs, God has made an ETERNAL covenant of love with us. Something we Jews know, cherish and abide in. Reflecting on the longevity of Judaism, Mark Twain once said, “Everything is mortal but the Jews.” 

The RCC and RCs need to respect the religious freedom of non-Catholics.  The RCC does itself no favors by falsely asserting that it is triumphant over other faiths, that it is better than other faiths, including other Christian faiths. So getting back to the friendship issue—friends repect the faith traditions of friends.  If RCs cannot do that, that is very sad and everyone loses out.  It is good for RCs to have non-RC friends and it is good for non-RCs to have RC friends.

There are righteous people in every race and religion. About the Catholic Churches immeasurable wealth. They could have never aquired it without the help of the Jesuits. They educate and hire the weak minded to do all of their dirty work. Here are a few examples, Lloyd Blankfein, Timothy Geithner and Ben Bernanke.

Lisa:
“Since I am living my life and not you, I know hos God has worked/works in my life.  my interpretation is correct.  As for my friends—who are smart people of deep faith, there is no reason to distrust what they tell me.” - So the fact that you are living your life and that you think of yourself and your friends as smart is actually supposed to prove that your interpretation of your lives is correct? Yikes!! Ever heard of presumption?

“Your skepticism indicates that you think that RCism is the only valid faith, that other faiths are inferior, that God wills only RCism to exist in the world, that God only works in the lives of RCs that RCism is better than anything else, that God could noooot possibly call people to inferior/wrong faith traditions like Judaism, etc.  That when it does happen, that must be a totally incorrect/false interpretation or a lie. The false triumphalism and false superiority that some RCs strut out is just insulting and condescending.” - Some homework for you, Lisa: go learn about the straw man, the ad hominem, and the red herring fallacies, then see if you can spot where you commit all of these in this one paragraph. For the love of God and truth and honesty, please do this.

DavidM,

You just do not want to admit that the subtext of your questions is that God only works in the lives of RCs, that the RCism is better than any other faith traidition, and no one from any other faith tradition could possibly know how God works in thier lives since they are not RC.

Evelyn:
“We are committed to doing the work of the relationship, and so we figure things out.” - hmmmm… so you’re saying you’re a good communicator? Good for you, but is that really an answer to my question? Doesn’t the fact remain that when, say, your mother dies, and your atheist friend believes, say, that she has ceased to exist, that there just IS a gulf between her understanding and yours? It’s not a translation issue, it’s a fundamental belief issue. Don’t you think that those are very different modes of separation?

Lisa,
Seriously, you really need to go do that homework I recommended (start with ‘straw man’).

I must conclude that the term “best friends” is used loosely here. Jesus did eat with sinners in order to evangelize but we are warned not to be yoked to unbelievers for “what fellowship can light have with darkness?” Therefore, it seems we CAN have best friends not of the faith provided there are no close, personal bonds.

@Marie – Your question is the key to evangelization.  You misunderstand me in some respects.  Yes, as a friend, I pray for and open the door to Christ with all who are in my life.  There is little doubt in the minds of any of them that I am a Christian and that I am willing to share, discuss, and invite.  Different from this, there is also a bold evangelization such as a street evangelist or people who address others for the express purpose of sharing Christ and the Christian faith.  Either of these are great.  They are forthright in their goals and honest with those they approach.  One is friendship, and the other is purposeful evangelization.  In my original comment, I was referring to “friendships” that are only for the purpose of “evangelizing,” where the friendship is contingent on the friend adopting the Christian faith and the expectation that they will accept Christian literature, invitations to church and concerts, etc.  In that case, the friendship can become a tool of manipulation, built on the expectation that a friend “owes” us conversion, the very opposite of open and honest friendship.  Do not latch onto any example here as proof of either friendship or manipulation.  It is a matter of intent and the heart of the two in a relationship.  Sure, invite a friend to church.  But be ready to back off, too.  If you are a true Christian friend and witness the power of Christ in your own life, you may be the seed to softening the person to faith.  Many people have truly hardened their hearts.  Your seed, planted with love, may be just what that friend needs to end up reading and writing in this blog, watching EWTN, picking up a Bible or stopping to talk with a street evangelist.  As a friend, you may never personally see the seed take root, but planting it is truly significant. Long after your friend moves on, they will take the seed with them.

Debbie,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.  Yes, there are similarities between what RCs and Jews believe about the messiah, etc. But I think there remain some fundamental differences.  Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah or is God. So Jews understand Jesus to have been mortal and to be dead, to have dies as human being in the first century CE.  So Jesus will not restore the Davidic monarchy (if it even God’s plan to have the messiah restore it).  Jesus may or may not be in the line of David.  Matthew and Luke trace Jesus’ geneology from Joseph, but Joseph, according to Christianity is not the father of Jesus and scripture is silent on the geneology of Mary. 

A question for you and other RCs:  Have you ever considered what would happen if Jesus is not the messiah, if it is not Jesus who comes to usher in a messianic age at the end of time?  What if Jesus is not God or the messiah? 

For Jews, well if Jesus is the messiah and ushers in a messianic age at the end of time I geuess we will have to go with that!

Of course God may have something in store for us that none of us could ever anticipate or comrpehend!  We all may be wrong!

I read a number of RC publications and blogs, including this one for several reasons:  The RCC is a large global instituion, what it says and does affects people around the world.  So its good to know what is going on with the RCC and to have some idea of the thinking of RCs.  Also, the Register is really outside my comfort zone—it is generally very right-wing and the rCC itself is becoming moe right wing. So I try to understand what is outside of my usual comfort zone.

Jesus was not a coward. Unlike the majority of brainwashed Americans, he spoke out against everything these tyrants are doing and have been trying to accomplish for decades. The American people are so morally and spiritually weak from being sold decades of lies they have accepted their own robbery under the guise of more lies. As a result, we are standing on the precipice of our own manufactured demise and the acceptance of the mark of the beast in our hands under the guise of healthcare and “social justice.” None of the stuff they are doing is legal. Not any of it. However, the American people are so dumbed down, they do not know the laws of this land, nor do they want to. They want to drink booze, take drugs, watch sports, porn and reality Tv. They go to church and pray but they do not even know what they should be praying for is their own souls.

lisa:
“So getting back to the friendship issue—friends repect the faith traditions of friends.  If RCs cannot do that, that is very sad and everyone loses out.  It is good for RCs to have non-RC friends and it is good for non-RCs to have RC friends.”
******************
lisa,
I basically agree with those comments but would offer that one can respect a friend but still cut social ties due to their own faith tradition’s practices.If you are Jewish, you already know there are a multitude of Jewish movements & traditions.Among the ultra-Orthodox, there are some who cut all ties with family members who convert to Christianity.I have in-laws who’ve experienced that.My Jewish friend’s current group discourages close social ties with Gentiles.I don’t doubt that she respects me, but she’s also trying to be faithful to her rabbi’s interpretation of her faith.
I actually understand the reasoning behind that, but find it odd that someone identifying themself as a Jew would single out Catholics for the same practices.

***“We are committed to doing the work of the relationship, and so we figure things out.” - hmmmm… so you’re saying you’re a good communicator? Good for you, but is that really an answer to my question?***

Here’s what I know: I can love deeply and be deeply loved in return by people who are not Catholic, and even those who are not Christian.  I did not always think this, and wasn’t really open to it for a long time, until I looked around myself and realized that I have amazing, loving, caring, dependable people close to my heart, who are ‘Jesus with skin on’ even though they don’t necessarily know His name.  It’s absolutely outlandish and gorgeous and grace-filled, that not two weeks ago I had a heart-to-heart with a dear female friend who is a very thoughtful atheist, and we were able to meet on common ground and truly connect.  We rely on each other.  Yes, there are fundamental differences, but we can still touch hearts and touch souls.  And that even happens when a loved one dies and there is a difference in faith over just what death means.

I would not marry a non-Catholic, because I need to be united in that sacramental way only with someone who can sit next to me in front of the tabernacle and Know Who is in there, but dear friends, oh, yes.

Any movement toward division is not of God. Take the election results as a prime example. Isn’t it suppose to be majority rules in a free and open society? What is the margin of error on Obama winning by 1% of the vote? The American people should have demanded a run off election but we have proven once again, we are willing to accept everything we are told by these tyrants. The fact no one voted for a third party candidate should also be quite alarming. The American people actually believe we have never elected a third party candidate in the last hundred years…? They don’t even realize they are living in a dictatship.

And a little bit more while I have a nice cup of coffee:

***It’s not a translation issue, it’s a fundamental
belief issue. Don’t you think that those are very different modes of
separation?***

Absolutely.  But I also know at a fundamental level, that however deep and consoling and solid and Catholic my faith may be, I am still looking at the King of the universe and the Lover of my soul through a drinking straw.  I am limited; He is not.  He loves my non Catholic/Christian friends passionately and deeply and intimately, and if I am His hands and feet and heart to them, I cannot shy away from loving them passionately and deeply and intimately as well.

Evelyn: With due respect, you seem to be one of those people who forgets about the separation of the sheep from the goats or thinks that it’s no big deal - or maybe just doesn’t believe in it? On his side, God is always there, but intimacy is a two-way thing and it’s a *reality* that’s there or not. It’s not just a warm and fuzzy *abstraction* that we are licensed to presume exists regardless of what we believe about God Himself! Think of our holy Mother, weeping for lost souls, for our ingratitude, our hardness of heart, our offences against her Son - true friendship has to be concerned about the things that our most gracious and loving mother is concerned about, rather than merely indulging in comfortable presumption. I’m not saying, don’t enjoy your friendships, but don’t lose sight of the possibility that they could be only temporary and that a true friend should not be complacent or presumptuous about this kind of possible loss.

There are a lot of Catholic Jews….wink..wink…For example ..my local media reported 85% of Catholic_ Jews_ were saved by the Vatican from Hitler…. those same IMPOSTERS have hijacked our Constitutional Government, the U.S. Treasury and the Catholic Church. They are blasphemers who believe they are God and we are allowing them to control our destiny. They want our souls for Satan to keep for all of eternity…. all under the guise of moving forward and social justice. Wake up people…its all a crock..They are crooks and what they want to steal is your freedom and independence ....they can only do that if we allow them to steal our souls.

What exactly are fundamental beliefs when the fundamentals they taught us were carefully crafted and well manufactured lies…???  Most folks don’t even know who has hijacked the world and their Constitutional Republic, their wealth,  their property as well as their religion and their religious beliefs ... or do they know they are living in manufactured hell as a result of believing everything they were told their entire lives. Satan always counterfeits God.

Holy Moley, DavidM!  You have mischaracterized me entirely.  I am deeply concerned with the salvation of my friends, Catholic/Christian or not, and I’m not presumptuous about it.  Remember that the wheat and the tares grow together, and they are not separated until the end, because *we can’t tell the difference.*  I trust that God will work in His way and His timing, and He doesn’t have to update me on His agenda. 

If I must err, I vastly prefer to err on the side of love.

Kthleen,

As you pointed out there are a number of movements within Judaism, as there a number of denominations within Christianity. We Jews are not monolithic about anything! I am not an ultra-orthodox Jew, or an Orthodox Jew. I am a Reform Jew (about as far away in thinking/thelogy from the ultra-orthodox as one can get!).  And I am also a convert to Judaism. Within my synagogue, no rabbi would ever ever suggest that I as a convert cut ties to my non-Jewish family.  No rabbi in my synagogue would ever suggest that any Jew in our congregation (which is very large) cut ties with any non-Jewish family member.  There are quite a number of people in my congregation who are converts to Judaism—for reasons of marriage and for other reasons.  I know that none of these people have cut ties with their non-Jewish family members.  I know rabbis from other synagogues as well, who would never suggest cutting ties with non-Jewish family members becasue they are not Jewish.  What SOME ultra-orthodox Jews do or what SOME orthodox Jews do re not maintaining ties with non-Jewish family members is NOT universal practice among all Jews.  We Jews do have a central authority, there is no “Jewish Vatican” so to speak.  And rabbis are teachers.  Rabbis convey ideas, convey knowledge re tradition, re scripture, etc.  Most rabbis lead services in their congregations, but not all.  And most synogogues across all movements have a group of lay people trained to lead services. So we say that “tradition has a vote, but not a veto.”.  That means we thoughtfully consider what tradition says, we weigh it with our own life expereince and make a decision.  Its up to individual Jews as to what weight, if any, he/she gives to what a rabbi has to say on any given subject.

Kathleen,

i meant to that we Jews do NOT have a central authority, that there is no “Jeiwsh Vatican”.

What is the tares made everyone believe lies and Jesus was in reality,  born in Syria which is modern day Palestine and Jesus was a Syrian which would be a modern day Palestinian…? What if the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden was not really forbidden at all….? Would God have told his creations they were forbidden to have any knowledge of the truth….? Does anyone care to venture outside of the cage and believe that Adam and Eve believed the first big lie Satan told them via the serpent? “Behold I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.” Matthew 10:16 (NKJV).

There is no Jewish Vatican….?  Sometimes the truth is not always in plain sight.

Lisa,
I understand that’s not a part of Reform Judaism,but it is currently practised by some Jews.And they have historically based reasons for doing it.

Kathleen,

Cutting ties with one’s non_jewish family is NOT a part of Judiasm generally.  How Jews deal with this issue varies widely.  Perhaps you know the old saying:  10 Jews, 12 opinions!!! Its very individual, its about the individual Jew and for SOME Orthodox and utltra-Orthodox, its about the weight the indivisual Jew may give to what an individual rabbi may or may not say about the issue.  The Torah often talks about how Jews are to treat non-Jews—as fellow human beings, as a part of our community.  It says 36 times in the Torah to welcome the stranger (the non-Jew).  Thirty-six is an important number for Jews.  The word for life in Hebrew is chai, the numberical value of the Hebrew letters in the word chai is 18.  Thirty-six is 2x 18.  So the Torah, in its 36 references to welcoming the non-Jew is emphasing that it is an important life value to welcome non-Jews in our communities.

If there may be some reluctance aomg SOME Jews to welcome non-Jewish family members, yes history palys a role.  The RCC has a very dark history re its treatmentof Jews prior to Vatican II.  Many, many Jews in many nations died, were tortured, wer forced to convert, wer unjusty treated at the hands of the RCC’s Inquistion.  That being said, we Jews survived it all and we thrive here in America in particular.  In additon, Vatican II’s Nostra Aetate and other subsequent statemtns and actions by the RCC make it clear that the RCC wants to have good and close relations with Jews.  And that is good. But know that hsitory and Christians have not always been very kind to Jews,so perhaps reluctance by some Jews to be welcoming to Christain family members may be understandable.  The ideal, however, is the Torah’s 36 repetitions of welcoming non-Jews—God in God’s Torah wants Jews to do that.

What exactly do you mean by a reformed Jew…..? Are you saying you are a Messianic Jew and have adopted some mainstream Christian beliefs…? Do you follow the Talmud…..? or strictly the Torah and just the first 5 books of Moses….which is the Hebrew Bible and is virtually the same text seen in Christian bibles….? The Jewish religion can not be so simply defined…..without including all elements.

I don’t know very much about gentile conversion to Judaism.  My first boyfriend was a Jewish who was agnostic, as was my next door neighbor growing up, whose Bar Mitzvah I attended.  Their pride as Jewish people was more of a pride of heritage, than a religious faith. Neither looked Jewish as opposed to my husband, whose family is Sephardic Jewish on both sides, and whose Jewish blood is readily apparent.  I will admit that I am vastly ignorant of what the motivation would be, (other than to please a spouse) to “become” Jewish, when this is not one’s heritage.  Is that a little bit like deciding to become Irish?? When I was a freshman in college there was a Jewish man handing out tracts on my college campus with a star of David on it.  I took one out of curiosity, as I’d never been sought out for Jewish evangelization.  I took it back to my dorm and read it.  My emotions turned from curiosity, to wonder, to shock, as I had never read so many Old Testament passages which pointed in amazing clarity to whom the Christ would be.  I realized that the man belonged to The Jews for Jesus group.  What positively stunned me, is *How*, when presented with such startling clarity, on whom he would be,*thousands* of years before He was born, could they, in retrospect not *see* it?  I was floored.
.
Anyhow, this is really cool:  Early this year, our humble University parish was having the stone floors resealed.  The rabbi from across the street let us use the Synagogue for mass. He warmly greeted us and said goodbye as we departed.  It felt so right to be in there having mass, it simply resonated in our souls.
.
On a more sober note, I know that in the early sixties when my parents built their home, it was written in the homeowner association rules that people of black or Jewish heritage were excluded. They couldn’t be members of the country club either! Disgusting.  This makes me realize how far we have come from such insanity.  But by the same token I simply feel like choking when I see liberal, Jewish women, speaking out and pushing for laws allowing abortion for all nine months of pregnancy!  Perhaps they are simply too young and/or disconnected to fathom the horror their parents’ generation was subjected to when the Jewish people were relegated to being second class citizens, and disposed of as “unwanted”.  It strikes chillingly close to home.

Evelyn, how can you possibly *err* on the side of love? That makes no sense to me.

You really can’t tell the difference between someone who wants to love God and is trying to love God and someone who doesn’t? It’s hard to believe that you can be really close to someone and not have an insight into the state of her soul. Do you really think that wheat and tares are indistinguishable? I think you are mistaken. In the gospel we are told, as soon as the two sprouted up, the master’s servants came and said to him, “Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?” Pray, perhaps, for the power of discernment?

Who would be a better friend: someone who has no idea if you’re on the path to God or the path to hell, or someone who is able to discern the difference? I would prefer to have the latter.

Ivent,

I am NOT a “reformed” Jew.  I have NEVER been a “messianic Jew”. I have NOT adopted “some mainstream Christian beliefs. I am a Reform Jew, I belong to the movement within Judaism called Reform Judaism.  Reform Judaism was founded in Germany in 1810. When lots of German Jews immigrated to America, Reform Judaism came to America (around the 1850s)as well.  The firt Reform congregation in the United States was established in 1873 in Cincinnati, Ohio—becasue Cincinnat was and still is a very German city, with lots of German immigrants and people of German descent.

If you want to find out more about Reform Judaism, please go the web site of the Union for Reform Judaism (the national organization for Reform congregations and for Reform Jews.  The web site is www.urj.org

***Evelyn, how can you possibly *err* on the side of love? That makes no sense to me. You really can’t tell the difference between someone who wants to love God and is trying to love God and someone who doesn’t? It’s hard to believe that you can be really close to someone and not have an insight into the state of her soul. Do you really think that wheat and tares are indistinguishable?***

We may be talking past each other at this point.  I regret that I am apparently not able to communicate in this venue in a way that you can hear me. 

I do not think I am erring.  But if I am uncertain about what to do or where to go, I am going to let love, real love that does the real work of putting a shoulder under the other’s cross, be my guide.  I think my non Catholic/Christian friends *do* want to love God; they just don’t know Him well enough yet or see clearly enough.  I do have insight into the state of their souls, and that matters to me very much.

The tares grew up in the wheat field in the first place because as seedlings, no one could tell the difference.  By the time they get reported to the master, they are big enough that their roots are tangled with the wheat roots and they can’t be pulled apart without killing everything.  So the master waits until harvest when it can all be cut down.  I have to leave open the possibility that my friends are tare seedlings, sure, but what if they are wheat seedlings?  The bottom line is that I don’t know, and I need to treat them as the precious image bearers that they are.

@Bob. Thank you! The Heavens rejoice and my spirit is uplifted! Now, back to humming “Istanbul, not Constantinople” to myself.

Lisa Kaiser ,
Thanks for your comments.
I don’t see the purpose of citing grievances against the Catholic Church ad nauseum here anymore than the folks who use comment boxes for Israeli news to decry Zionism.Both exhibit sectarianism, even though the anti-Zionists will deny it every time.Anti-semitism is so ingrained in cultures that we don’t even realize how it darkens our perceptions.
Jews have good reason to be wary of Gentiles.History has repeatedly proven that.But coming to a site with a chip on one’s shoulder also distorts the conversation.
We can each witness to our beliefs without tearing down or disrespecting other traditions.I understand conversion can bring zealousness but being secure in one’s religion lessens harshness.Learning about other faiths should promote understanding & tolerance.Our faiths are all built on the same foundation & we each can benefit in understanding that.
God bless.

So yeah…um…I just want to make a little announcement: My mother-in-law is really racist.  She’s from Latin America.  If you have a conversation with her, one of the first five things she will tell you is that her mother was blond and blue eyed.  And she was! She feels the need to make excuses for her black hair and eyed son, my husband.  “I married a terrible black man!” She exclaims.  She will solemnly tell you that buried deep in her husband’s heritage, there. is. a. black. man. My children stare at her and don’t quite know what to make of it.  My teenaged son wants to know if he can put it on his college applications.  I for my part, want to say, that as an African American family, *we* as a black family, have suffered a persecution, that needs to be “righted”.  I’d like to have Lisa Kaiser over for tea so we can both ruminate over how our people have been oppressed. We blacks have had enough.

Kathleen,

I have not come to this conversation with a chip on my shoulder.  My comments re the RCC were in response to your earlier comment that some Jews cut-off their nown-Jewish family members has a basis in history. Citing the history is not “tearing down”, being disrespectful or being harsh.  The facts are the facts. I have not said anything false about the history.  The history of the RCC re Jews IS dark. I cited the history only to be clear about my own comments re some Jews cutting off non-Jewish family members. Note that I mention Nostra Aetate, Vatican II, John Paul II, etc by way of understanding that the RCC has made/is making efforts to to repair its realtionship with Jews and Judaism.  And that is all good and much appreciated within Judaism.  I mention that Torah commands us 36 times to welcome non-Jews.  I apologize for any misuderstanding my earlier may have created for you.  That was not my intention.

Kathleen,

Something else come to mind re history.  I once heard a speaker at a Jewish evernt recall something hsi father said to him.  And that was:  Jews have no history, Jews have memory.  History is knowing what happened in the past.  Memory is understanding that the past make us who we are.”  For some Jews who cut off non-Jewish familie members, that may be a function of “memory”.  Not all memories are good memories, but it all makes us who we are.

Evelyn, I think I can hear you. It’s just that I disagree with you and have an annoying habit of pointing it out when people say things that don’t really make sense. I think that colloquial expressions that don’t really make sense should be avoided (such as “err on the side of love,” which is only possible if you are thinking of a distorted notion of love which is actually the opposite of love).—“if I am uncertain about what to do or where to go, I am going to let love, real love that does the real work of putting a shoulder under the other’s cross, be my guide” - That’s great, Evelyn, that is you following the command to love your neighbor - but that command applies to enemies as well as friends. We’re talking about *friendship* here, which is something much more specific than *charity*. You might say “I am a friend even to my enemies”; but the point is that you still don’t share a true friendship, and that the *best* kind of friendship has to be based on… (see above; I won’t repeat myself).

Anna Lisa,

My journey to Judaism took place over the course of 30 yrs as a result of some unlooked for events that God placed in my path. God has led me to Judiasm. You are not surpised when people convert to Christianity (when it may not be their “heritage”) so why be surprised when people convert to Judaism?  Judaism is many-layered—yes it is about “heritage”, it is about culture, it is about “tribe” and it is also about faith.  Jews as a people are called “Israel”.  Why?  In the Book of Genesis (chapter 32:29), you will see the story of Jacob wrestling with “a man.”  When that contest is over God changes Jacob’s name to Israel and said, ” You have wresteled with God and with man and you have prevalied.”  The work Israel” means “contended with the Divine”.  We Jews contend with God, we wrestle with God, we want to be up close and personal with God. That amony many other things draws me to Judaism—a tradition that has lasted 4,500 yrs and one that continues, one that is till vital and vibrant.

People conver to many faith traditions for many reason, all the time.  Conversion to Judaism should not be suprising.

Lisa,
Your comments on Judaism are valid, but are coming from a Reformed perspective.As you stated, there are numerous Jewish movements out there.Keeping set apart, avoiding intermarriage or close social ties with Gentiles & disowning converted family members are all currently practised in some Jewish groups.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote.Their reason for these practices has basis in a history of pogroms & anti-Semitism & have helped Orthodox Jews & others survive despite extermination attempts.Rabbis, such as my friend’s, reconcile & try to balance this with the Torah & commandments to welcome the stranger.As you said, 10 Jews, 12 different opinions.
Just a suggestion, there are some very good Hasidic, Orthodox, etc sites out there online, plus the Jerusalem Post.If you’re a recent convert you might find it informative reading. There are layers & layers of culture & tradition most of us are unfamiliar with.(Some great recipes, too.)
God bless.

Kathleen, 

There is no “Reformed” Judaism.  The movement is called Reform Judasim (we are happily “unreformed”! LOL!)

I do read the Jerusalem Post, have studied Torh with Chabad (one of the Hasidic movements) rabbis, am currently taking a course from a Modern Orthodox rabbi (and sometimes attend hsi shul).  On great online source is the Tablet: A new Read on Jewish Life.  That web site is www.tabletmag.com.

Yes, Judaism is layered and nuanced, with much varied culture and tradition (and great food!).

on a lampstand,
Hey, your mother-in-law may be correct.You never know what DNA’s back in the family tree, especially in former colonies where slavery was practised-like North & South America.My son found that out personally when he had a DNA test done a few years back.Big surprise.

Lisa,
Beg pardon, “Reform” is correct.Thanks for that.And the link.

@Kathleen, Well than I guess we have the right to be offended about absolutely everything, given that we have a smattering of blood from every continent.

ON a Lampstand,

I am up for tea anytime!

Posted by on a lampstand on Thursday, Nov 29, 2012 5:21 PM (EDT):@Kathleen, Well than I guess we have the right to be offended about absolutely everything, given that we have a smattering of blood from every continent.”
*********************************
:)
Maybe we can apply for scholorships half a dozen different ways, too?

Lisa, forgive my curiosity, did you convert from another faith?  I do admit that it is easier for me to fathom why Jewish people would refuse to embrace a Messiah, whom they felt was a threat to their traditions.  When I hear about Christians converting to Judaism, it stuns me a little as I’m told this entails a formal rejection of Jesus Christ.

On a Lampstand,

I did convert from another faith.  I was RC.  In my conversion, what I had to formally reject was the practice of any other faith tradition. So now in my life having been RC and now a Jew, I understand a lot about guilt.  But I do not feel guilty about “rejecting” Jesus as God and/or messiah.  After all, Jesus was not a Christian, his mother was not a Christian, Joseph was not a Christian.  They were all observant Jews. I think that Jesus was an excleent rabbi (teacher) who made the Torah (alrady ancient in his time) compelling and relevant to the his Jewish community.  Jesus taught straight from the Torah and taught that the Torah was not about legalistic tradition, but about love of God.

God led me to Judasim.  From time to time in life God commands us to “go forth” , to embrace a new life (as God commanded Abraham to “go forth” and embrace a new life as a Jew). God knows my heart and God knows my resons for converting.  I figure on that score, God and I are good to go! If God has issues with my conversion, God will let me know that when I go to the big oneg (delight—meal held after Saturday morning Shabbat services)  in the sky!  I am not worried about it. God has an eternal and unbroken covenant of love with Jews, so I am part of that.  Its all good.

On a Lampstand,

Jews did not/do not embrace Jesus as messiah because of ” a threat to their traditions.”  The concept of messiah is a Jewish concept, found in Hebrew scripture.  Hebrew scripture defines what/who the messiah will be.  Jesus does not fit the defintion of messiah.  Christianity has distorted the Jewish concept of messiah in order to make Jesus fit that distorted concept.  The idea that there will be a “second coming” of Jesus is a major clue that the Jewish defintion of messiah has been messed with.

I don’t mean to be offensive.  I just want to be clear about the correct reason Jews do not accept Jesus as God/or messiah.  For Jews to acccpet Jesus as God would be idolatry.  To accept Jesus as messaih would be a rejection of the Hebrew scriptures on that point.

DavidM,

A few years ago I would have agreed with you completely.  I have changed my mind, however, based on personal experience, specifically a couple of friendships, in the context of my own robust orthodox Catholic faith.  Clearly you do not share that experience, and that’s fine.  It was eye-opening to me to discover that I could, indeed, share a true friendship with people who are not Catholic/Christian.  Just because it is not your experience doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

I just ran into one of those women in the course of the workday.  I told her how sad I was to learn that we don’t share a “true friendship,” that I’m just loving my neighbor, and that she was merely the recipient of my less-specific “charity.”  After we had a good laugh, she told me how much it means to her to be able to be close friends with Catholics who do not communicate to her that she is somehow “less than” because of the difference in faith. (She’s been down that road before and it really hurt her.)

It is shocking.  It is scandalous.  It is incomprehensible.  It is the utmost of folly to Heathen eyes.  It is the height of love:
.
“Hosanna in the Highest!” they had cried, the week before.
He is no longer speaking in lyrical verse or parables.  He declares with authority that HE must return to Jerusalem, where He will suffer, be crucified and die.  Peter with human eyes and voice cries “God forbid!”  The thought of Jesus, clothed in light,speaking with Moses and Isaiah is still dazzling his earthy mind.  Jesus, the lamb of God, admonishes this one He loves, knowing that soon he will understand, but not yet…Jesus turns His gaze back toward that place of immolation saying,
“for this, I was born.”
He sets forth on His way, heart burning with love, and eagerness for his beloved children to be ransomed.

Justamon,

Just a point of clarification.  In the NT’s account of the “transfiguration” Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah, not Moses and Isaiah.  That point may not make a difference in the 21st century, but it would have made a difference to the early Jewish/Christian readers that Matthew’ gospel was written for.  And for Christians, should not your NT be cited correctly?

Also, Jesus was not immolated.  I understand the reference to Jesus as “sacrfice” or as “sacrificial lamb”, but immolation (complete burning up) was done only at the Temple in Jeursalem for some sacrifices.  Jesus, of course, was crucified by the Romans on a hill and not burned at the Temple.

I’m justamom, but I did realize it was Elijah when I was doing the dishes. :)

John stressed the moment of the REAL immolation (the cross), whereas the Synoptics stress the moment of the MYSTICAL immolation (the supper).  It is the same event seen from two different angles-the event of Christ’s immolation.  “At the supper”, St Ephrem wrote, “Jesus immolated himself,on the cross othersimmolated him” and this was to show that no one could take his life if he didn’t offer it freely as he had the power to lay it down and take it again (John 10:18)”
—“The Eucharist Our Sanctification” Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, O.F.M.

Evelyn:
“A few years ago I would have agreed with you completely.” - Maybe… but you have to understand what someone is saying before agreeing with him completely, and I don’t think you have done that. You’ve quite clearly ignored and twisted what I have said. I said you don’t have a true friendship with your *enemies* (whom you are nonetheless called to love). You can’t rebut that claim by making cheerfully condescending remarks about how you are friends with your *friends* (“tee hee!” - good grief!).

“she told me how much it means to her to be able to be close friends with Catholics who do not communicate to her that she is somehow “less than” because of the difference in faith” - obviously it’s a very delicate matter as to how to broach this issue, but there is nothing wrong with communicating to a true friend that you think that not being Catholic *is* - it is! - somehow ‘less than’ being Catholic! If you don’t have that level of trust where you can communicate that (and *explain* it), you’re certainly not very close friends (or very mature people).

...and your friend obviously doesn’t have to agree with you, but she won’t get offended by your belief (like Lisa would, for example) if she is really your friend.

DavidM,

You have no clue about anything I think. Your comments just make you look silly.  And the idea that the beliefs of everyone who is non-Catholics are “less than” that of RCism just smacks of of hubris, false superiority, false triumphalism, and is certainly non-scriptural.  Plus that kind of attitude will not attract anyone to the RCC.  It will jsut turn people away.  You do your church no favors with such an attitude.

Lisa,
Unless you have gone to extraordinary lengths to dissimulate your real thoughts here, I indeed do have a clue about some of the things you think. I’m sorry, but the truth often offends people. Take it up with God. “If they have rejected me, they will reject you.” (See John 15:18-25.)

According to Matthew 24-25- though the Romans physically crucified Jesus, Pontius Pilate washed his hands of the whole affair - saying “I am innocent of this righteous man’s blood - see to it yourselves” and the Jews responded - “His blood be on us and on our children”  This is not important so that Jews can be blamed and hated for killing Jesus - which sadly, was an effect in parts of Christian History… The reason this is beautiful and significant to Catholics is because Jesus became the perfect sacrifical lamb of the Jews with the effect of saving the entire world from sin. The only ones that could make sacrifices for the Jews were the Jewish priests - so it would have been important that it was the Jewish priests that in fact handed Jesus over. It would be necessary for Jesus’ sacrifice as a sin offering to be offered by the priests. Matthew 27:1-2 “When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death; and they bound Him and led Him away and delivered Him to Pilate the Governor.”  Certainly, if the Jewish priests believed that Jesus was truly God and meant to be a sin offering for the world they would never have been able to to themselves to kill Him. Also, Jews at the time, would not have seen Jesus as this perfect sacrifice if the Jewish priests hadn’t been the ones to hand Jesus over. It would have been necessary for the priests to be “blinded” by this truth and see Jesus as a blasphemer. The laws Jesus was accused of breaking were not Roman laws but Jewish laws of blasphemy. But what if He wasn’t blaspheming and He really was the son of God? What would it mean to the Jews to discover that and realize they had, in fact, offered that perfect sacrifice—as was needed—to save the world? What do the Jews think of Jesus - he would have to have been either the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic. To me, Jesus is the Lord and it is the Jewish people and Jesus - King of the Jews, who have saved me. It is an honor to be friends with Jewish people. I don’t think my faith is superior, I do think I am blessed to see that the Jews have fulfilled salvation history until Jesus comes again. That is what Catholics mean when they say the fullness of the Truth. We can respectfully disagree, but again, it is an honor to be friends with Jewish people who are so integral to the salvation of the world whether, in your eyes, you believe it has already happened or it is still yet to come…

My friend has not yet taken hold of God’s amazing gift.  This does not make her “less than” any more than a poor person is “less than” a rich person.  Her experience of being told “We can’t be friends with you anymore because you don’t share our religion,” did not communicate to her that she was missing out on something great.  It communicated to her that she was less of a person, less acceptable, less worthy.  That’s not okay.  She is every bit as much of an image-bearer as I am, with just as much dignity.

Her complaint was not that she was told she *had* less, but that she was told she *was* less.

To Evelyn,re: your friend’s rejection by other religious: ouch! Until she finds God in the Church, in the Eucharist, she will find Him in the hearts of those around her. Thank you for being Christ to her - God will work through you and it will shine brighter than any of the other rejections…keep praying.

Evelyn: A poor person *is* ‘less than’ a rich person - the poor person is ‘less wealthy’. Someone who does not recognize the truth of the Gospel *is* also ‘less than’ someone who does. Grace doesn’t just give you something so you *have* more; it changes who you are so that you become an adopted child of God (a new creation and all that?  - sound familiar?). You’re an orthodox Catholic so I assume you know this! I don’t know how you can talk as if acceptance of the Gospel and a relationship with Christ through the Church doesn’t make one bit of difference to who one is in the eyes of God! That’s anything but orthodox. And please: recognizing this has nothing to do with having a license to treat people who don’t recognize this badly; it’s a matter of simply being truthful about what the Catholic faith teaches.

DavidM,

For anyone of any faith tradition to put out in the world, to other people that their faith tradition is better than all others is just wrong, not of God.  In looking at God’s creation, God loves diversity in all forms.  There is not one kind of tre, thate are hundred (thousand?), ther are many many species of everything.  And in terms of the life of the erath, we homo sapiens as the lone humans =that too is new.  We used to share the planet with neanderthdal humans.  So it seems like ti would be “out of charcater” for God to elevate one faith above all others.  God’ creation works as a system, as the joining of many, necessary disparate elements to form a working whole.  And after all, religion/faith traidtion is highly dependent upon where one is born.  God loves RCs above all others because “permitted” some people to be born in places where being RC is common/dominat?  God does not love the people of Neap, for example, where Buddhism is the dominat faith traidtion???

And look at the different faith traditions—Buudhism (to awake), Islam (to submit), Judaism/Israel (to wrestle/to contend), etc etc.  All very disparate, all necessary for the proper working order of God’s human creation??  Who knows?  But it just seems in looking at what we can see of God’s creation, what we know of God.s that diversity, complexity, symbiotic relationships of organisims and systems are “rules” of God’s creation.  Why should aour faith traditions be different?  Why must one group insist that it and it alone hold the sole truth (and no scripture does not say that of the RCC) of God on earth?  Why must adherents of one faith tradition feel they have right to look down on every other faith tradition, to determine that every other faith traidtion is “lesser”?  I, for one, refuse to believe that the RCC is the sole source of God’s truth on earth. That assertion by the RCC and by some RCs, seems to to be the product pride, hubris, a an imperfect human nature.  And I am willing to stake my soul on God’s love and grace being available to all people of every faith tradition, in every time and in every place.  That there are different faith tradition because God will is it, that every faith tradition has valid, ongoing, eternal,unbroken covenenats with God.

Debbie,

I appreciate the good intentions of your post re Jesus and Judaism, etc.  And perhaps.RCs are happy with the belief, but please know that Jews find such comments totally-offbase, wrong.  Jesus is not and never was “king of the Jews”. Jews have not “fulfilled salvation history” for the benefit of Christians.  Yes, I know you believe this.  But Jews absolutley do not.  I know you do not intend your comments to be disrespectful of the Judaism, but they are.  God’s covenant with Jews, is valid, unbrokne, ongoing, eternal and has nothing to to with Jesus, Christian salvation.”  I understand that this is an RC comment thread, and this is good place for you to express your belief about Jews, Jesus and salvation.  Just know that outside the RCC/Christianity, people have very differnt and eually valid views on this subject.

Please be friends with Jews, because of who that person, not because “Jewish people are so integral to the salvation of the world”.  That is a Christian belief.  We Jews do not exist in the world to be “integral” to what Christians beleive about salvation.  Jews exist in the world because God wills it.

I do not mean to be offensive.  I really do understand that your comments are well-intentioned, they off-base as far as Jews are concerned.

Lisa,
I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. But please understand: just because you are convinced that something is true does not make it true! (THINK about that, please!) I do not believe that God loves you less than me. Christian’s actually believe that they will be judged by a stricter standard than non-Christians. This is because we believe that God is just and that to whom much has been given, much will be required. Diversity has nothing to do with who God is, it has to do with what we (and our diverse faith traditions) are. We believe that God is one God and that the world, with all of its wonderful diversity, is also full of sin (and no, trees don’t sin - people do). The RCC certainly does not claim to “alone hold the sole truth” (what astonishing ignorance, if that’s what you believe!), but it does claim… Actually, if you are genuinely interested in the truth, you can find it out for yourself (it’s very easily accessible: Catechism of the Catholic Church) - there’s no point in me providing more fodder for you to ignore, distort, and throw back at me.

“Diversity has nothing to do with who God is” - I mean as regards His intrinsic nature; of course God wills diversity in His creation, but the point is that not all diversity is from God (like “there’s Hindus and Muslims and Jews and Nazis and they’re all different but they’re all equally wonderful and willed by God” - er, NOT!).

DavidM,

Diversity ahs everything to do with who God is.  And yes, all creation and all diversity is from God.  Nazis have nothing to do with diversity and nothing to do with religious belief.  Your Nazi comment is offensive and red herring and jsut makes you looks illy.and everything to do with sin and evil.  And YES, Hindus, Jews, Muslims ARE equally wonderful and willed by God.  Christians are not the only beloved of God, not the the only “wonderful” people in the world.  Please get over yourself and your arrogance about your RCism.  You live in a bbule of delusion—like Mitt Romney ahd hsi campaign thinking they were susch a shoe-inthat Romney did not evern write a concession speech.  Such delusioan and arrogance fly in the face of reality and commonsense

DavidM,

Yes the RCC does believe it is the sole source of God’s truth on earth.  You do not know much about your faith.  And the same holds for you:  just because you are convinced that something is true does not make it true. In addition, you have absoultely no clue how God will judge Christians or anyone else.

Lisa, surely even you must see that Truth is immutable.  The belief that one can fly with a cape, won’t stop a true believer from splatting on the sidewalk below.

Anna Lisa,

Yes truth is immutable.  It is just that that truth is NOT found in the RCC or in RCism or in Christianity. It is found in God alone.

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“The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone”
Psalm 118:22
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Jesus looked directly at them and asked, “Then what is the meaning of that which is written:
“The stone the builders rejected, has become the capstone.”.
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“Therefore I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.”
Matthew 21:43

“He who listens to you listens to me, he who rejects you rejects me, but he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me.”
Luke 10:16
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“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father.  Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set”.
John 5:45

AnaLisa,

just becasue a man named Jesus said something (if he even acutally said it) does not make it ture.

DavidM,

Re the RCC and its assertion that is the only true faith:  Please read Dominus Iesus, issued by Pope John Paul II in 2000.  Pay particular attention to section IV and VI and also the conclusion where JPII called the RCC the “one true relgion”.  So yes, your RCC does claim it is is the sole source of God’s truth on earth.  And yes, that is just palin untrue and hubris.

Written about the Messiah, by Isaiah 700 years before the birth of Jesus:
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Isaiah 53
“He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised and we esteemed him not”.
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“Surely he has bourne our grief and carried our sorrows yer we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.”
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“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”
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“The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
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“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter.”

Luke 12:9
But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.
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2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with him.  If we disown him, he will also disown us.
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Matt 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Annalisa,

Just becasue these quotes show up in the NT does not amke them true.  Jesus and Paual may not have even said these things.

You beleive that everything in the NT is true.  A Muslim will say that everything in the Quran is true.  What makes you right and the Muslim wrong?  And one could ask the same of the Muslim:  what makes the Quran right and the NT wrong?  And both answers come down to the same thing:  The Muslim beleives he/she is right because that is what he/she has been taught.  You believe you are right becasue that is what you have been taught.  But both of you may be entirely wrong.  Because you believe something to be true does not make it true.  Because some words show up in a document called the NT, does not make those words true.  Because a bishop of Rome says something is true does not make it true.  Because Mohammad said something does not make it true.

So yes, feel free to quote the NT to me all day long.  Feel free to believe every word of the NT is true.  Just don’t expect that everyone in the world to believe what you believe.  Just don’t expect everyone in the world to just accept Rome’s word that the RCism is the one true faith. Yes, you can then believe that all those people who rejec the RCC as the one true faith will go to hell.  All the Muslims can believe that you are an infidel.  And where does that get us??? Nowhere.  And that is why the RCC finally gave up killing and torturing the people who disagreed with the RCC.  It accmoplished nothing.  Your quoting the NT to me all day long will accomplish nothing.

Let me quote to you Zechariah 8:22-23:  “Many peoples and strong nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to implore the favor of the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten people from nations of every language will take hold,m yes, will take hold of the cloak of every Jew and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

See I can quote the Bible to my benefit as well as you can.

Lisa,
I know we are all here because God wills it (and that is a great joy!). And our common ground is God which is above all the most important thing. And, I imagine we would both agree that the Jews are integral to salvation history because that is God’s will as well…and that salvation history is still in the making. We also both agree that we believe our faiths are the right ones.
How Jesus fits into the picture is where we differ.
I guess what I was getting at is if Jesus was God - how would that whole scenario appear to the Jews? Would it look like the Catholic viewpoint under that condition? Because then it just goes back to one question - is Jesus God or isn’t He? That is the big game-changer about how we view our faith and live it out. I would easily be Jewish if I didn’t believe Jesus was God (and I know I would be bothered by people believing He was God-because I would think, in that case, that they are wrong). I can see that.  But with my faith being what it is, I do feel honored and hopefully in understanding why I might feel that way you wouldn’t take offense to it against me personally. I respect you letting me know that you are offended.  I can see that the idea from your point of view might be offensive-esp. because we are talking about God and we both want to honor Him-which may be why you can also see why different faith beliefs can be offensive to Catholics for similar reasons).
But in cases where people believe so fully in their faith - love their faith - and truly want to honor God - but have a different faith belief and each think they are right - can they live with that and still be friends? Esp. if they like to discuss it - they’d always be bumping up against resistance from the other. They’d both have to revel in it and grow in their faith because of it for me to think it would be a holy friendship to maintain.
Between Judaism and Catholicism…there is so much common ground and you obviously know a bit about the Catholic faith so you are not closed off to at least listening and learning about faiths other than yours. That, for me, is what makes a friendship between two different faiths work—that and better understanding how not to offend each other while still comfortably expressing your faith - right or wrong as they may be (I am obviously still learning here). I think people want to put God first, and trying to do that, and honor Him we make good or bad decisions in friendships out of trying to do the right things so as not to offend God (it hurts at times, when friends say things we think would offend God or aren’t true—) but we are all misguided to some extent and do make mistakes and we all will see someday that we all had a lot to learn about the Truth. But in the meantime…we muddle through, I suppose and I hope that God is at least a bit amused by our efforts :-)

Ana Lisa:

Your quote from the Psalms:  “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone” Psalm 118:22.  This quote is NOT about Jesus.  This is King David talking about himself.  Or the pslamist talking about King David.  Please read the story of how the prophet Samuel choose David to be the evenutal successor of King Saul.
Yes, I know the RCC told you this quote is about Jesus.  The RCC is wrong.

Debbie,

Yes, let’s hope and suppose God is amused by our efforts!  Oy! And yes, there is a lot of common ground between Judaism and RCism.  I am a former RC.  In the late 1970s I went with a friend to synagogue for the first time ( a large Conservative movement synagogue) and was amazed when in the synagogue service I recognized what RCs would call the Liturgy of the Word. That is when I made the connection between Judaism and RCism.  I also have 16 yrs of RC education and a BA in RC theology.  So don’t give me too much credit about being open to learning about RCism!  I spent about 5 decades as an RC and some stuff stuck in my brain!

Jews see Judaism as a path to God, but not as the only path to God.  Jews believe that those who are intended to be Jews will be Jews.  There is no effort to “evangelize” non-Jews.  If a non-Jew is supposed to come to Judaism, that will happen (as it did with me and with a number of other former RCs I know who are now also Jews).  So Jews as a rule are fine about other faiths, other paths to God.  Jews don’t see the faith issue as a right or a wrong.  Its not “wrong” to be Christian or Hindu or Budhhist, etc.  So a Jew is not going to be telling a non-Jew that Judaism is the “only right path” to God.  For Jews, “its about deed, not creed.”

It seems to me that the issue of a “rght” faith or a “wrong” faith come from Christianity and from Islam.  The issues comes up (and I am going to be brutally honest about how I see this) when Christians try to tell Jews that Jesus is God, that Christianity is the only right faith, that Judaism is wrong, that Jesus “fulfilled” the prophecies of the “Old Testament”, that “old law has passed away”, that one can come to God only through Jesus, that one will go to hell unlss one believes in Jesus as God, that Jesus is the messiah.  Yes, Jews and Christians can talk about their faiths, what each likes about his/her faith, what is fulfilling, what is moving, what the challenges are, where the common ground is, where the differences are.  The problems arise when Christians feel that they must convert a Jew, that they must force Christainity upon Jews, when they tell a Jew that they are praying for the Jew to convert , to accept Jesus as Lord.  The problems arise when Christians do not accept that Jews have a valid, ongoing, unbroken covenant with God.  The problems arise when Christians do not believe or accept or understand that Judaism (or any non-Christian) faith is as good as and as valid as Christianity.  And again, being brutally honest, the problems arise when Christians try to convince Jews that RCism, or Christianity is the only “right” faith.  Once Christians start that conversation (explicitly or subtly) with Jews, that is the aoutomatic turn-off for the Jew. 

The other issue with Judaism is that it is more than a religion or more than a faith traditon—it is a culture, it is a community, it is a “tribe”, it is a people, it is an ethnicity for some Jews.  When Christians do not repect Judaism, it is dsrepect for faith, for tradition, for culture, for community, for tribe, for ethnicity, for a whole people.  Jews are not “rugged individualists”.  Jews are a “rugged community”.  We say that it is impossible to be a Jew alone—we can only be Jewish withn a community.  I know a number of Jews who come to syngogue regularly and who do not believe in God.  That is because for them, its about community, not faith.  So disrespcet the Jew, disrepect the entire community.  And that does not sit well.

I hope that is helpful in trying to sort out the issue of interreligious friendship.

Atheists think we are ALL equally wrong & scripture is myth.One could go in circles like this forever but it’s not very profitable.

Kathllenn,

Yes, you are so right!  It seems to come down to the idea that we need to just accept that when it comes to faith, not everyone is going to believe the same thing and that just because someone believes differntly does not mean anyone is “going to hell”, that trying to force our faith on someone else is not acceptable behavior.  Its a matter of respect and ofaccepting that at least her in the United States, we are free to worship as we please.  And once we reach that point, why should people of different faith NOT be friends???

Levity: I used to work as a Lifeguard at a Jewish Community Center - I had NO clue about the Jewish faith at all—and Kosher laws especially. I was about 16 at the time. I went up to the window and ordered a bacon cheeseburger. I got the window slammed in my face. I had NO idea what had just transpired…I certainly had not made a new friend!
I was mortified when my mom later explained about Kosher foods… oooooooooooooh.  Well, in one way or another, we learn about other faiths. For me, it usually means through unintentional offense.

It is frustrating to feel forced into believing something. My decision to become Catholic was a free decision after being around loving Catholics who were not afraid talk about their faith all the time. I know my love for my faith and discussing it frustrates some of my friends who are not Catholic and so I temper it a bit.
My friendships have drifted more towards Catholics where I feel like I can truly share the excitement of my faith to the fullest. But most of my family is not Catholic and I need them in my life as well for all the love and nurturing and fun-times we have—but still, my Catholicity has to be a bit subdued in words - but hopefully not in action - there’s a bit of loneliness in that though.
Lisa, From being an RC, then, you know that Catholics don’t view Catholicism as the only path to God. That Catholics don’t believe non-Catholics are going to Hell.
That openness within the Catholic faith was a door that welcomed me when I was a non-Catholic. I feel Catholics do tend to really hide their faith in public out of tolerance so much so that it is getting lost from the public square. This is a time for boldness in our faith or we are sure to lose our ability to practice it all together. And it is true for any religious faith.

Lisa,
Obviously this is not really the venue to try to open your eyes to the saving blood of Jesus.  Actually, the whole point of this post I think, is that the love of a friend is what can open another to love itself.  I believe we all agree on that point.  I also agree that the *whole reality* of God is yet to be seen, and couldn’t even be comprehended by mortal minds as we are now—kind of like trying to explain physics to an infant.
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I believe all religions (except Satanism of course!) contain various degrees of God’s truth.  I wouldn’t ever tell you that your religion is WRONG, as you do repeatedly here, on a Catholic website about ours. Honestly?  I think this points to some spiritual issues/pain you must have that compels you to lash out like that.  I will simply be honest by saying that I believe your faith is like the first chapters of the epic. It’s incomplete, not wrong!  It’s the foam without the beer, its the glass without the wine, it’s the wound without the balm, it’s the sin without the remedy, it’s the storm without the lifesaver, its the land beneath heaven, without a bridge…but I have no doubt that all Jewish people of good will and charity, will choose their redeemer, and the fullness of the Truth, when their eyes are opened to Him.
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I gave you a little “tough love”, by posting those scriptural references.  The ones from Isaiah got stuck in spambot.  Forgive me if I hope that they work on your heart a bit.  It’s not like I’ll ever know, or it’s a “I’m right and you’re wrong, and let me shove it in your face by saying so” mentality.  The love of neighbor obviously has nothing to do with “notches” in the belt, or “one upmanship”.
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So here’s my last little piece of advice, before I “sign off” on this thread:  When you see Him at the end of your life, throw yourself upon His merciful heart.  He holds no grudges. That’s what I’m gonna do. :)  Peace.

Ann Lisa,

You are free to believe hatever you want.  Also, Isaiah was NOT talking about Jesus—another distortion of Hebrew scripture by Christainity to try to justify belief in Jesus as God/messiah.

Your posting scripture was certainly NOT ‘tough love”—just a refusal to accept that Judaism is a valid faith, as valid as your Christianity. I was not “lahing out” and I am no “spiritual pain”. The topic here is interreligious friendship—so only RCs should discuss that, with hearing from anyone hwo is not RC? I was defending myself againt arrogant RCs who want everyone to believe that Jesus was God & to believe that the RCC is the “one true faith”, who will not accept that God has valid, ongoing, unbrken covenants with Jews and Muslims.  Its condescending to talk about my “incomplete faith”  Judaism is a complete and valid faith. My wine glass is full, the ONE God is ever faithful to God’s chosen people, Israel.  Wow, your arrogance, about RCism being the only real faith is just weird and disturbing.  Perhaps it is you with spritual issues/pain.  I hope your eyes are opened to the beauty and validty of all faith traidtions.  Sorry your world is so msall and tht you are locked in a small room of your narriw vision of God and RCism.  Very sad. 

Jesus was an observant Jew, and a human being. So, he had no “saving blood”, he will not be sitting in judgement upon anyone in the life to come.

Do you treat people at your Synagogue that way too?—Must be lonely when you carry around that much rage.
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God forces no one.
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He can’t do *more* than suffering and dying for you.
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I make no apology for professing that I believe that the greatest fullness of the Truth on this Earth can be found in the Church that Jesus Christ established, when he spoke to that humble fisherman, and said “You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
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My pride lies in the fact that I am no longer a slave, but a daughter, in and through the death of Christ. 
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Nobody is forcing His blood upon you.
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We all must live with the choices we freely make.
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I hope the best for you, Lisa.  Goodnight.

If Jesus was not God -but claimed that He was and was killed because of this blasphemy, why would Jews think of him as an observant Jew? I would think they would have to think of him as either crazy for thinking He was God or that He was a liar for saying it. I don’t know how He could go down in Jewish history as a blasphemer who was crucified as well as an observant Jew. When you say, however, that Jesus was an observant Jew - you are speaking truthfully according to the Catholic faith. We do believe He was observant -and no observant Jew would say that He was God unless He actually was God and if He was, it was His responsibility to tell us despite what we would think. And it certainly would be within God’s power to become man and offer Himself up as a sin sacrifice to save us. 
Since none of us can go back and watch the history unfold ourselves we have to make judgement calls and discern what is true. We all agree Jesus was fully human but it remains to be seen if He is also fully God.  Catholics believe He is and Jews believe He isn’t.
There is a right and wrong way of thinking about Jesus - we all agree about that as well. Beyond that, we have to wait and see and agree to disagree while boldly proclaiming our faith.
In the meantime, God wants us to love one another and He extends great mercy to all of us knowing that our hearts are truly seeking Him.
I’ve really enjoyed this conversation but I have to sign off. Simcha has more articles out there :-) I pray for all of my friends - not that they convert to Catholicism - but that God leads us all to the fullness of the Truth. That is the best prayer we can say for everyone, right?
Peace to all of you.
BTW, I went to a Jewish seder meal a few years ago - LOVED it!!! My son was the youngest one at that meal and got to answer the door :-)

Lisa:
Once again, if you are interested in the truth, it is available. If you are not, there’s not much I can do about it. And you still really need to work on avoiding those silly straw man arguments! (Have you done that homework yet?)

(The document “Dominus Iesus” clearly and directly contradicts your incredibly ignorant statement about the RCC’s supposed claim to “alone hold the sole truth.” And diversity is diversity, regardless of whether you like the diverse parties involved. Your claims that Nazis are not part of human diversity is just idiotic. Grow up!)

“A stupid man’s report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.” -Bertrand Russell
...or in this case, into what she has already decided to believe.

My golly gosh! Wow, what an article- but seriously, what a thread of comments. I love Anna Lisas last comments about the beer without the froth. as it undeniably rings true to me.

But can I add, I have friends of all faiths- Jewish, Muslim and Christian, as well as Atheists, and I would never, EVER go to a website belonging to any of these and tell a Jew Abraham was a child killer, Mohammad was a pedophile and their unbelief was sending them to damnation- whats the point? All they will do is laugh in my face and insult my Jesus. Its kinda bad form and childish.
So I really don’t for the life of me understand why Lisa Kaiser, whose religion I respect as hers would come here, a RC Blog, and post after post reject MY Jesus to me and other Christians. Claiming it all as opinion and inventions.

And….when questioned on it, get defensive and OFFENSIVE- its quite puzzling.

There was comment after comment, that Jesus as Messiah is a RC invention and the NT is “made up” is RC invention. Others responded with respect- I’m quite impressed- and respected her comments that Jews are set apart, consecrated, sacred and special to God- so as to reiterate the uniqueness of her chosen faith. Well, ok Lisa I respect your belief. I do. God Bless you and your faith.

But my Faith is unique too, because for the first time in mankind, God made man came to this Earth to lay down His life for ALL if us, including YOU. It was a fulfillment of your belief. Simcha is a beautiful example of respecting and retaining her Jewish traditions whilst embracing her Christianity and love of Christ Jesus.

Lisa it’s not my “opinion”, this is my belief. It is who I am. You rejecting this to me, insults me as a person, because it insults what I believe. You despise a RC for doing this, yet you do it yourself….

Your methods are fruitless. And being an ex-RC and now Jewish gives you no right- AT ALL, to do this Don’t mask it under the guise of inter-faith dialogue- that is not inter-faith dialogue- that’s being blunt and insulting and disrespectful to another’s belief- something you are adamant RC are guilty of- please don’t be a hypocrite.

That was the point of Simcha’s article, have friends of all Faiths, express your own faith and tread on another persons Faith lightly. But most importantly, live out your Faith.

Others will see and be drawn to your Faith because of how you live it out.

Not how well you talk it up!

David M,

Apparently you did not read Dominus Iesus or you did not understand what the words meant. Please re-read or have someone read to you the conclusion sectionin particular.  And I did NOT say that the Nazis were not aprt of human diversity.  You lumped the Nazis in your comment in response to my comment re the diversity of faith traditions.  Nazism is NOT a faith tradition.  So again, pelase learn to read, hone your reading comprehension skills or have someone read things for you and expalin to you what the words mean.  Pleas grow up and learn to read—it apparent you currently do not know how to read and/or how to comprehend the English language.

DavidM,

You apparently think the truth and what the RCC teaches are the same thing.  It is YOU who needs to do YOUR homework.  Too bad you have such a narrow vision of the world and express such bigoted views of other faith traditions.  Nothing I can do about that, other than pity you.

Debbie,

The RCC does teach that it is on the true faith/church on earth.  Please read the concluding section of Dominus Iesus promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 2000.

Anna Lisa,

I am not “carryong around rage”.  That is your weird, biszarre, inaccurate assertion.  Please stop it.  Also, the prohpet Isaiah was NOT writing about Jesus.  That is a distortion of Hebrew scripture by Christianity in order to justify its unjustiafiable belief that a man named Jesus was God and messiah.  Sorry you do not know more about Hebrew scripture.  Please do some studying on the TRUE meaning if Isaiah and the other Hebrew wcripture.  The Hebrew scriptures contain NO references or prophecies about Jesus ( mortal, now very dead, human being).

Shivers down the spine.

David M and Debbie,

From the concluding section of Dominus Iesus:  “In treating the question of the true religion, the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council taught: “We believe that this one true religion continues to exist in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus entrusted the task of spreading it among all people.”  So in 2000, Pope John Paul II asserts that that Vatican II that the RCC is the “one true religion”.  Dominus Iesus is found in its entirety on the Vatican’s web site.  There is no denying that the RCC teaches that it is the “one true religion”.  Now, just because the RCC teaches this or asserts this, does not it is true.  It as a convenient for the RCC to say that about itself, but again that does not make it true.

Lisa Kaiser….from reading ALL the comments…It is a pretty safe guess that you will not get anyone on this site to agree that your idea to leave the faith was a good one. It is funny that you are ranting on a CATHOLIC site…someone who feels like they did the right thing is never that angry. That is probably the most telling thing…

Yes it teaches that it is the one true religion but it does not teach that only Catholics go to Heaven. The CCC addresses other religions esp. Jewish and Muslim. We are not obligated to believe that only Catholics go to Heaven. Only God judges that. I do believe that the Catholic faith is the one, true faith or else I wouldn’t be Catholic. I would hope anyone would believe that the faith they are celebrating is the fullness of the truth.

I respect your decision to leave the Catholic faith if you did not feel like it was correct. That is honest and God wants us to honestly search for Him. We all have pretty interesting, convoluted paths to follow in our search for Truth and for God and we need and have the freedom to follow where we feel God leads. Sometimes, I do think it is away from the Catholic church. I say that even while I believe it is the one, true, faith…but sometimes, people have been so hurt by people in the Catholic church that they just can’t see God there (He is still there) God finds us where we are…and the most important thing is to keep our hearts open to Him. Sometimes, if we are hurt our healing comes from elsewhere - God works in amazing ways. I am not saying that is the only reason a person would leave the Catholic faith—but that is a common reason.

Claiming something is true does not make it true, I agree. But, if something is true, it is important to claim it is. So the question remains -is it true? If so, the Church certainly has the authority and responsibility to profess it.

I’m undoubtedly wasting my time, Lisa, writing this to you against all odds.  You are what psychologists call “well-defended.”  You have chosen your pig-swill and will not be deprived of it.

I don’t consider myself unfriendly, but you have repeatedly slandered God in a cavalier and off-handed way, and used your mottled “faith tradition” to justify it.  Our friendship requires for me to correct you.

Judaism ended with John the Baptist, who is recorded in the New Testament as the “last prophet of olden times.”  There was a fork in the road.  The people of God followed the God-made-man (in spite of great difficulties).  The pretenders went with pharisees and sadducees - the invested authorities of the erstwhile judaism, who were highly placed and affluent.  These paths have diverged inexorably ever since.

When you look at the illlustrious biblical patrimony you gloat over as a convert to this spurious judaism, realize that it belongs completely and entirely to the God’s Son, and his co-heirs.  Your share in it as the historical children of abraham is completely dependent on “connecting the circle,” and believing in Jesus.  If you don’t do this, you are like a leafy tree with no fruit. 

You are entitled by your religion to none of God’s blessings.  It all belongs to his Son.  There’s only funny looking russian hats, and scarves with tassels, unreflective procreation, and the hollow observance of wordly and now-obscure laws that have passed on in their true effect to the real owner: Jesus.

Your sanctimonious democracy of religious traditions and ideas is wholly false and entirely smug - a criminally misleading farce - engendered in 17th Century France by the likes of Voltaire.  It is just an interesting historical codpiece.

For you to migrate from truth to empty gesticulation demonstrates (as Joe said elsewhere) the shockingly low state of catechesis in America today.  But you’re right - God writes straight with crooked lines, so if anyone is going to condemn you, it won’t be me.

I just find it funny that the city you’ve chosen to set on a hill is the fabled Gehenna.

I don’t have any patience for your condesceding lectures, or your gentle forebearance, or especially your highhanded invective.  Spare me you 50 responses.  (And spare me, anna lisa, all stories of how you coaxed your rebellious brood into civility by the “charm and tact” method of child rearing.)  The time is too, too short:  Live or die.  Blessing or curse.  Nobody said “please” on the Andrea Dorea.

We could learn a lesson from the Shoa you mention above.  Many Jews of imperial Germany could not even consider that something as horrible as the shoa was impending.  Germany at the turn of the 20th Century was the height of civilization.  More Jews lived there than anywhere on earth.  This was the seed ground of people like Albert Einstein.  Coming to America was like living in exile for him.

So when the time care for Jews to “pick up the tent and move on - following the pillar of cloud, the pillar of fire,” many never noticed.  Why?  They were no longer attentive to the word of God in their lives.  They had become worldly, ensconced, Lisa-like.

Perhaps the little dictator missed in his aspiration for “a final solution” after all.  He aimed for Jews, but all he got was good German burghers.

Food for thought!

Oh, poor Lisa… You can’t see the difference between “one true religion” and “sole source of God’s truth on earth”? I’m afraid your eyes have been blinded, likely by your own bitterness. When everyone else can *see* that you are bitter and irrational, maybe the truth is that you actually *are*? Maybe just consider that possibility, reflect on it a little in the next week or so?
From section 2 of Dominus Iesus: “In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: “The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men”. Continuing in this line of thought, the Church’s proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue. Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which “it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit”.”

Oh poor David, who does not/cannot understand that the RCC teaches that one true religion = the sole source of God’s truth on earth.

Okay, folks, does anyone have anything else to add?  I think everybody’s said their piece. I hate to shut comments down, but this steady trickle of tit-for-tat insults disguised as theological arguments is getting old.

Observer,

the topic on this comment thread is interfaith friendship.  So, this should just be a conversation among RCs????  Also, I am not ranting and I am not angry.  I do object to comments on this site that support the idea that RCism is the only true/valid faith and everything else is “less”.  I object to comments on this thread that support the false idea that the RCC is triumphant over all other faiths.  I am not trying to convince anyone that my leaving the RCC was a good idea.  That is not my aim.  I am following God’s call/God’s will in my life. So I really don’t care if anyone else is “convinced” that this is a good idea in my life. Its God’s idea for me and I will follow God’s call in my life.  I don’t care hwqat anyone thinks about it.

Simcha,

You opened this topic on a right-wing web site.  It is perhaps expected that some RCs will flaunt a false triumphalism, a false sense of superiority.

Yes, well, I was talking about you, too, Lisa.  Perhaps you’re not aware that you’re coming off as triumphalist and superior.

Simcha,
I quote Dominus Iesus to clearly refute Lisa’s ridiculous false claim about that document and about RC doctrine and you reduce that to an “insult disguised as theological argument”? Whatever.

Lisa,
“one true religion = the sole source of God’s truth on earth” is as absurd as “one true SCOTUS = the sole source of legitimate legal rulings in the US.”

“whatever” indeed.  Time to close comments.  Bye, everybody!  Have a nice Advent!