Nice article.  As an atheist, when religious people come to my door, I tell them I’m an atheist and very happy.  I wish them happyness and truth.  BUT, if there is a child along. I just thank them and tell them I’m not intersted.

I have a friend whose 8-year-old son basically all-but-believes he is a second St. Francis Xavier, the missionary.  He constantly preaches Christ to young and old alike, to Catholics and non-Catholics.  From what I understand he reads, on his own volition, juvenile and even sometimes adult, Catholic books (lives of the saints, church history, etc.).  His parents don’t know quite what to do with him since he obviously has a beautiful faith but he is more than socially awkward at times, and overspoken (so, at least, some would say) with the faith in the context of the society we live in.

Where is that line that we are to tread?  Based on the kids natural reaction, I wonder sometimes if they don’t have a better grasp of it than us possibly tainted-by-apathy adults.  I don’t think it’s “upsetting people” as you said above, though I think that it was appropriate for a young kid, but I believe the answer is more nuanced.  Time to pray about this some more.

I really like your take on this. I’m an atheist, and I had friends much older than 5 (maybe about 13) have approximately the same response as your daughter to my lack of belief. It was horribly awkward and made me incredibly uncomfortable talking about religion for years afterwards. I’m all for discussing different viewpoints (that’s why I’m here!), but sensitivity is crucial. I’m glad your daughter learned that lesson early on when friendships are less likely to be damaged by it.
 
I had a friend who spent a while trying to convert me (we were probably about 10-12 years old at the time), and I think she went about it very well - she invited me to her youth group, gave me a book about Jesus, showed me bits of the Bible. Did it end up working? Nope. But she was extremely kind about it, was never pushy or made our friendship contingent on my conversion, and we’re still very good friends despite being on opposite ends of the religious spectrum. Though I know an unsuccessful evangelization story isn’t the most encouraging thing, that’s the kind of evangelization I’d hope your daughter would do when she gets older. She should make sure any attempts to convert someone are backed up with genuine friendship and good intent, and I think regardless of the outcome, both she and her friend will consider it a positive experience.

something amazing happens when kids evangelize. doors are opened like the one that your daughter opened for you with her friends mother. don’t blow the oppurtunity you have work to do.

On the other hand, my brother-in-law, also very outspoken, was in a play at the local community theatre.  From what I know, he was one of the only openly Christian people in the group.  One cast member, who was raised atheist, noticed him one day.  “You’re different,” she said. “What is it?”
“Well, it’s ‘cause I’ve got Jesus in my life,” my brother-in-law responded nonchalantly.
Because of this encounter, she has started to go to church with the family every Sunday. 

Sometimes all the Holy Spirit needs is us to actually live like Christians.

oh I should add I have no doubt you were hand picked for just this person just because you will witness to the Truth in just the right way.  I am happy for you and your daughter. it’s a great gift.

oh I should add I have no doubt you were hand picked for just this person just because you will witness to the Truth in just the right way.  I am happy for you and your daughter. it’s a great gift you have been given.

“sometimes all the Holy Spirit needs is us to actually live like Christians.”

well said, and I completely agree. 

Catholic here, of the Liturgy of the Hours variety.

Simcha, this is a great post and I am so pleased that you wrote it.  I have lots of atheist friends and the best way I have learned to evangelize them (which sometimes just means helping them let go of their anger against believers) is to be authentically Catholic. I answer lots of questions & say lots of prayers that the Holy Spirit will lead them back to God. Your daughter and the other girl can learn much from one another.  From my atheist friends I have learned that many are turned off less by what they perceive as the irrationality of belief and more by the hypocritical behavior of professed Christians, the pushiness of the well-meaning evangelists, and sad experiences from childhood they associate with church-going families that don’t live their faith.
Thanks!

You may have thought of this already, but I wish someone taught me long ago to pray to the Holy Spirit for the right words when I’m entering a difficult conversation. I love the idea of her saying a silent prayer, but if she’s really feeling the need to say something (because maybe the silence became awkward or whathaveyou), that prayer to the Holy Spirit has saved me so many times. And looking back it was always the right thing to say at the right time.

And PS. I love your posts. always! Thanks for being a real genuine Catholic voice.

Just last week, my girls were on the phone with a friend, and my 6yo felt lead to say “You don’t go to CHURCH? You DON’T go to CHURCH?” etc. In this particular instance, I just said, “That’s what she said, drop it already.” But we were on speaker phone. :-P

I think you did the right thing.  Santa Claus does not visit our house (we celebrate St Nicholas Day by giving the kids a present from us, and we go around to the neighbors and hang bags of gold coins on their doors—anonymously), but many of my son’s friends do.  I have explained to them that every family has their own traditions, and it’s not our job to enlighten other kids about the reality of Santa Claus. 

One year my son’s friend asked his mom for a sleigh bell from santa’s sleigh.  I helped her hunt through the stores to find one, even though it’s not what I would do, and when he showed my son the bell as PROOF of Santa’s existence, my son just said, “Hey, that’s neat!” and left it at that. I was very proud of him. 

When their friends ask them what they got from Santa, I tell them to say, “Well, for St Nicholas Day I got…” or, “For Epiphany I’m hoping to get….”  It’s a graceful way of discussing presents without saying, “My presents come from my parents, not Santa!”

Similarly, we don’t tell our kids to spread the Catholic faith among their friends, because their friends’ parents are raising them in their faith tradition and we need to respect that. 

At the same time I’m not going to change my family’s traditions out of fear of stepping on toes.  We had a kid over once—-the son of our renters, who were moving in to the rental and were frazzled, we had him over to give them a break—and when our kids bowed their heads to say Grace before lunch, he glared at me and said, “I’m NOT Catholic.” I said, “That’s okay, you don’t have to say Grace with us, but it’s something we do before we eat our meals.”  I think tolerance needs to go both ways.

When I was about ten or so, I asked a new friend what religion she was, and she had no idea.  The closest she could come up with was Aquarius, or some other sign of the Zodiac.  I was very confused, because up to that point, I was sure that wherever you lived (which, since my dad was in the Air Force, was a few places), everyone was either Catholic, or some other Christian religion.  Catholic or Mormon.  Catholic or Lutheran.  Catholic or Baptist.  This “nothing” response was beyond my ken. 

So, all I can do is help my own kids learn that not everyone believes as we do, but God loves us all anyway.  If loving the non-church-going is good enough for God, it’ll just have to be good enough for us, too, which is what I want my kids to live out.

Still, considering I’ve got a five-year-old who himself would rather not go to church most Sundays, I’ll let his teen-aged siblings work their evangelizing efforts on him. 

And…. the verification word is “hell21.”  Whoever comes up with this has a heck of a sense of humor!

A great article, and I hope you get lots of responses. I’d love more ideas myself.

Maybe you can write a followup piece? How do you respond when your small children (<10 or so) ask, “Why isn’t that church Catholic? Why don’t they have the Eucharist? Why doesn’t my friend go to church? Why don’t they believe in God?” My typical answer: “I’m not sure. It doesn’t make sense to me. We should pray for them.” I’d love more ideas on that, too.

As a Catholic who is frequently witnessed to by Fundamentalists and non-believers, I like your response. I do the same…I pray for my friends that don’t believe and try to make sure I share just enough. Too many times over-witnessing causes people to go away.

The comment about the brother-in-law reminds me of a favorite Grover Levy song lyric:

If you want to lead me to Jesus
You better find a better way
‘Cause your life is speaking so loud
I can’t even hear a word you say

I found this comment kind of offensive:  “Sometimes all the Holy Spirit needs is us to actually live like Christians.”  Her brother-in-law was in a play and made a casual comment about his faith - NOT the same as your suggesting that a 4-year-old isn’t ready to hear a message of faith shrieked in her ear by another tot.  I think you’re doing just fine “actually living like a Christian.”  :-)))

Please don’t be nervous, but I’m a Jew and think this is just common sense.

I came from a Catholic family but about age 12 I had an evangelical conversion and also was sort of targeted by some Mormon friends.  Though the evangelical friends obviously “won” both sets of friends were very kind in their approach.  At the time I felt like those were the types of decisions I was equipped to make and, even in retrospect (I’m 30) I think those experiences were instrumental to my maturing faith (I’m now Catholic).  I think you took just the right approach for a five year old and have laid the foundation for a thoughtful, tactful, kind approach for your daughter to move forward with this friendship and others that will follow.  People can be thoughtless jerks at pretty much any age.

As a Catholic living in the heart of Fundamentalist and Evangelical country, I find myself most often being evangelized too. I usually smile say “Thank you, you seem to find a lot of joy in your faith, but I’m very happy with the Truth as I know it.” (I get talked to a lot about “the Truth.”) As for my personal evangelizing work, I listen to St Francis of Assisi, “Preach the Gospel at all times, When necessary use words.”

My parents were of a certain evangelical type bent who travelled to other countries spreading the Gospel.  My mom was beautiful and sweet, and my father was handsome and charismatic, so they didn’t have much trouble getting into people’s heads.  But what goes over really well in countries where the locals are gregarious and effusive, does not go over well in the jaded American Northeast.  So when they enthusiastically urged their children (who had neither beauty nor charisma) to evangelize to our friends/acquaintances, it was rather embarrassing to explain that we were making Jesus look weird.  And since we were fairly normal kids who didn’t really want to be weird ourselves, it led to a very serious loss of faith for most of us as adults.
-
So now I’m of the idea that you have to hone your verbal skills if you want to evangelize effectively.  And if you simply don’t have the verbal skills, try to be humble enough to recognize it and leave it to others.  There are other ways to deliver your soul.  And for the love of all that’s holy, at the very least, bite your tongue before you say something judgy.  Recognizing other people’s sins is not a skill.  Even atheists can do that.

Simcha! This is wonderful.

When I was little (11 or 12) the parents of my next door neighbors, who I really loved, told my mother I wasn’t allowed to play with their little girls any more. The reason? I had told the mom that she was going to hell for living with a man she wasn’t married to, and the little girls that they were going to hell because they didn’t go to church or believe in God.

My mom’s response was to be very proud of me. She said that I had spoken the truth, and she defends me to this day.

I’m terribly ashamed of my 12-year-old self, and my mom. There is nothing Christ-like or loving about what I said to those people. It’s pure judgment, condemnation, and spite, and I will never raise my kids to treat other people like that. I think everything you said in your post is wonderful. I think we should be careful of other people and their beliefs, not in the name of tolerance or diversity or any of that crap, but in the name of simple human decency and love for our fellow man.

If you are raising your wee ones to respect the dignity of all humans and yet with the strong Catholic faith you are instilling in them, then interfere little. Watch and when they are older they should be able to problem solve enough to handle friends of other or “no” beliefs and will ask you when they need to. Having said, I wonder who is more “in your face” now a day, Christians or Atheists?

I agree with your silent prayer approach Simcha, though in some ways, I also think it’s a very delicate situation because you want to make sure your daughter learns that speaking up is ok in the right context (but as your son demonstrated by speaking up about using the Lord’s Name in vain, I think you straddle the line nicely.

I have to say, I was so naive as a kid about others’ religions and beliefs that I didn’t realize—despite growing up in the Bible belt of all places—that Catholic churches were the only churches that had the true presence of the Eucharist—UNTIL I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL! It hit me like, oh, I guess that makes sense. I just never thought about them not having it… and I continue to be sad for that fact.

Great article. thanks for sharing. I have a little toddler and another baby on the way. I’m committed to sharing the good news with others, and the article is very helpful in thinking about how, in the future, to help my children talk about God with others.

We had a similar talk with our kindergartner last week.  She came home from school and said, in a tone that was clearly trying to see how we’d respond, “Some of my classmates think Easter is just about candy and gifts.”

We asked what she thought.  She said, “I told them that it wasn’t about that.  It’s when Jesus died and came back to life and that is important.” 

My husband and I exchanged glances and asked to hear more.  Her table discussed it and a few kids thought it was about both candy and Jesus, but others were sticking to the strictly candy/gifts idea.  One boy, who has to miss school on all of the holiday party days, said, “Jesus was just a nice man.  He didn’t come back to life and is not God.”

Then her teacher asked them to stop because snack time was over and it was time to clean up.

Differences in beliefs is a difficult concept to explain at that age - she felt she was sharing important knowledge.  But I’m glad we can start discussing it now and I hope we can help her be both strong in her faith and respectful of others at the same time.

I think my response in speaking to my daughter afterwards might have been similar, but I wonder if the mom ever thought that her daughter’s beliefs might make your daughter feel uncomfortable.  Would your daughter be welcome to say grace before meals in their home? Would her daughter sit quietly while your family does that if she is in your home? I do believe that evangelization through true friendship is the most effective, but I also think that tolerance and respect have to go both ways.

The most powerful influence is to live the teaching of God. The only church that does that is the Roman Catholic. The Lord was absolutely unequivocal about the indissoluble nature of marriage, and His Church is the same. Judas lawyers have subverted it, but the teaching stands. The Eucharist, too. “Will you leave me too?”

J H - I hope I have taught my children enough respect for other people’s religious beliefs that they would know not to pray out loud in Jesus’ name when they are a guest in a non-Christian home.    No one can ever stop a child from saying Grace before meals silently.   

Obviously, tolerance and respect have to go both ways, but I think it’s a leap to insinuate that a little atheist girl who invites an obviously Catholic girl over for a play date would not sit quietly and respectfully while a host family prayed or tap danced or did whatever it is they do before dinner.  Atheist, agnostic, Jewish, and Buddhist children are taught manners too and are likely polite or not polite at rates remarkably close to those of Christian children.

I think that, just as some atheists think that all Christians are just like Terry Jones or the Westboro Baptist Church fools, some Christians think that all atheists are like PZ Meyers or the sneering creeps that follow Jen Fulwiler around to remind her that she’s a stupid stupid dum dum.  Of course neither one is true - it’s just the extra-obnoxious types who tend to speak for the group, unfortunately.

I didn’t mean to imply that they the other family WOULD be rude - but I guess I’m surprised at the mother making it into a big deal by having to have a private conversation about it.  I mean, Simcha’s daughter is FIVE. I once had a little girl tell me that people who wear makeup are going to hell.  I never brought it up to her mother because I assumed that it was a childish “indiscretion” and would only make the mother feel awkward.  I didn’t feel the need to make sure that the mother would be raising her daughter to respect others beliefs, and I didn’t feel the need to threaten to “cut off ties”.

When I was six years old I found out that not all fathers worked at IBM.  I was shocked, yes, shocked to find out that some fathers were electricians, farmers, lawyers and so on.  I guess my point is that these are some thing that kids figure out on their own and how to become friends with people who are different isn’t something that parents need to always be involved in.

When Christians decide to raise their children different from the world with things that set them apart like wearing scapulars, or saying grace before meals, or going to church on Sunday, we mark ourselves as different.  When athiests decide to do the same with things like not celebrating major holidays, they too decide to set themselves apart.  We Christians accept rude stares in restaurants when a family of 11 says grace or we cross ourselves when passing a Church.  We don’t expect the rest of the world to be “tolerant” or “be accepting” because we are the ones who have made the decision to set ourselves apart. 

If I was that athiest parent and my child came home with the halloween story, I would have said, “uh, so much that kid knows! Hell doesn’t exist - so if he wants to be something lame for Halloween because he believes in a made up land, so be it.”  And I would teach my kids to be themselves, stick to their guns, be polite and respectful - but at the end of the day - there are things that we do as a family and there are things that other people do.  I don’t think I would have even brought it up to the other mom.

Simcha, Another great post! I think you handled the situation well.

I’m a Christian, but not Catholic and I like the approach Kristen lays out “You seem to find a lot of joy in your faith, but I’m very happy with the Truth as I know it”.  For those that believe, we feel that the Holy Spirit has led us in a different way and we should respect each others paths. 

@Julie, Calah very well said.  I totally agree.

@William J Quinn, that’s what you believe and I respect that.

Love it!!!  My daughter and I attend daily Mass together (she is 5).  If I am feeling lazy and don’t want to go, she is the one who gets me going.  Always questions why we might miss a day.  I also think she has been an encouragement to others while there.  Her sweet voice seems to always carry above the other 15 or so other people there and they can all hear her saying her prayers.  How can a person not be touched when they see how much a little one loves Jesus or how reverent she is?

I think we should tell our children to “preach” as St. Francis recommended (by action…and only use words when necessary).  That way, they will be proud to stand up for their faith in their own thoughts and actions and can be a great example without speaking down to others/being judgemental/etc.  I think kids do need to use their voice when directly asked about their faith or beliefs, but most times can just live by example until they learn to speak with love, understanding, and tact.

...a little food for thought…Do we Catholics and other Christians (I believe the majority of the readers here)want to make a effort to cultivate relationships with non-Christians? I try to be ‘balanced’- my kids homeschool through a public charter school, they go to ballet three times a week with mostly public schoolers, they go to choir and Shakespeare with mostly secular or non-Catholic homeschoolers, we have ocassional ‘play dates’ with non-Christian friends- but I stopped making the effort to get to the local secular homeschooling group because of what my kids have to deal with, “smiling and waving” like the penguins in Madagascar- it is hard enough for them being despised by the Orthodox and causing confusion to the rest of the Catholic world.

When one of my sons was a kindergartener, his teacher pulled us aside.  During a unit on another culture that included their dominant religion, my son spoke up and told the class that there really is only one God, and “those other gods are not real.”  She handled it very well with us, saying she was a practicing Christian, but she wanted our help reminding him that there are kids of many different faiths in his class.

We were happy to do that, and encouraged him to think about how he would feel if another child had said Jesus wasn’t real.  I so do not want my kids to be “programmed” to spout off judgements about others’ lifestyles, etc.  I hope we are teaching them that each person is made in the image of God, and deserves to be treated respectfully (i.e. not being openly rude about couples who cohabit, etc.).  When they’re old enough to be able to have a more complex conversation about what they believe, I hope we will have taught them well how to ask good questions and be inviting.

I also hope they’re treated respectfully by non-Christians.

“I think we should tell our children to “preach” as St. Francis recommended (by action…and only use words when necessary). 
This is entirely correct.  YOu will NEVER convert someone by bossing them into it.  If asked, state your position clearly, and then hear theirs, but then end it and spend the rest of your energies DOING good.

The girl is 5. She doesn’t have beliefs, she knows what her parents tell her. It is indoctrination and, in my opinion, a mild form of child abuse for parents to instill a religion so strongly into a FIVE year old, that they would even think to talk about it. Shame on you.

@GoodReasonNews:  oh, poo.  She also tells people she’s supposed to eat her vegetables, because we’ve indoctrinated her with our belief system about nutrition.  Don’t be silly - if you had a child, you’d teach her the things that are important to you. I can’t believe people still drag out this tired old non-argument.  Reason indeed.  In case you missed it the first time:  poo.

GoodReasonNews: the reputable atheists (ones with actual children) are located at the top of the combox.  Observe and learn.  Live and let live.
Simcha: Now you’re getting some of the trolls Jen gets.  That must mean you’re doing something right. ;-) Where’s the jerk when you need him?

@ Mouse:  he’s at work.  The second “poo” was on his behalf.

Nutrition has a basis in fact and evidence. Telling a 5 year old they need to obey a magical ghost who lives in the clouds or else terrible things will happen to them is obviously going to lead to behavior like this girl demonstrated and, if you look through the history of Christianity and Islam, that sort of behavior continues through adulthood when people are properly educated to understand reason and fact.

If a person really believed that this magical ghost truly existed and demanded our worship you’d all be like this little girl.

When I was a Catholic I was terrified, for myself and others, but I was also young. I was scared of the monsters under my bed too. When I grew up and got an education about the way the world really worked I dropped my silly superstitions about gods and monsters and vowed not to teach my children nonsense and fear. Because that’s real love: honesty.

Can I ask you something?  This is a sincere question, something I’ve always wondered.  Why do atheists read Catholic blogs?

GoodReasonNews: Simcha’s kid doesn’t appear to be afraid of anything, ever.  Your argument is fallacious from the beginning.
Also, do you have kids?  What do you tell them when they ask how non-life became life?  Inquiring minds haven’t heard a decent scientific explanation of that.

ATHIESTS READ CATHOLIC BLOGS BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY SECURE AND HAVE NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER.

I was linked here by a friend on twitter, I’ve never read this blog before. I tell the children in my life the answers I have and admit when I have no answer rather than depend on bronze-age fairy tales cooked up by desert dwelling cavemen to quash their search for knowledge.

Okay, well, it’s been a pleasure.  For the record, I discourage my children from believing in magical ghosts.  My stars, if I had been taught that at as a young Catholic, as you claim to have been, I would have left the church, too!  Something tells me your teacher didn’t use the Baltimore Catechism.

I think that we can easily make mistakes when trying to share our faith, especially when that faith is fervent, yet immature.  When I was a Bible thumping pre-teen growing up in the Bible belt my very best friend was Jewish.  I was terrified for her that she was going to go to hell.  Now, that was a way overblown view of an immature pre-teen, but those feelings came out of my love for her.  I tried to “witness” to her several times, and we both ended up in tears.  I eventually gave up and decided to just pray for her, much to her relief, I’m sure. 

I wasn’t the best example of a Christian over the years of our growing up, but later when we were in college (different places) she became a Christian!  Did I plant some seeds, or did God just accomplish that in spite of my fumbling attempts. I think it was both.  God can use us, even when we don’t do things right.  I think that the important parts of the equation was my great love for her, and God’s even greater love.

Now she is Catholic, and so am I - but she beat me by four years!  And, in spite of it all, we are still friends nearly 30 years later.  Thanks be to God!

I can really understand your desire for “decent” friends, not just Catholic friends because unfortunately they are not always the same. I went to a Catholic high school, but my best friend in high school was a Japanese Buddhist (this is CA, O.K?). She was just such a decent girl compared the the other kids. They only religious argument we ever had was after a class on baptism (everyone had to take religion, even the non-Catholics). She just couldn’t believe that I would condemn her loving, gentle mother (who suffered much at Nagasaki) to hell because she wasn’t baptized. I was pretty insistent on the literal Catholic explanation and I don’t think I handled the discussion very well, but we still remained best friends. It is a discussion I remember poignantly because her mother unexpectedly died from a tragic hospital mistake soon after we graduated. I still pray for her soul as well as my friend’s conversion.

Well, my little grands live in the Bible belt…and are being raised Catholic by our daughter and son-in-law who were also raised Catholic. They have few children in the immediate neighborhood to play with other than a Southern Baptist family. Our grands go to Catholic school ..the little Baptist children are home schooled. My daughter tells us that our grands are constantly being told (by their neighbor friends)they are going to hell (because they are Catholics)and recently when their dog died were told there dog was not in heaven….I wish I could have been there when our grand-daughter told her Baptist friend…that’s ok…we’ll be with him in hell!! Of course she did not say that..because she (l) is too well mannered (2) and knows better…Just kidding! My point is that as Catholics we had better do a
better job at teaching our kids the faith…it is a tough enough world as it is…without a firm foundation they will become discouraged and disheartened. Already these children are being confronted and challenged.
We, as Catholics, must do better at catechizing our kids so that they are comfortable in defending truth. They can only know what they are taught. Believe me these little Baptist kids are getting the “drill” early on! And there is little of the wide-ness of charity in their hearts! I say a rosary for them all every day as their worried grammy! and lift them up to the Lord! We need to make the need for tolerance as strongly felt as the need for evangelization. It is the only way to have peace..in our hearts as well as in the world! Katherine..I hope somehow you communicated to your friend that her mother “earned” her stripes at Nagasaki. There are many kinds of baptism..the Lord is kind and merciful and supplies all our needs. The commandment to love is the most overlooked and under-taught of all, by all!

“The Baltimore Catechism”? Who uses that anymore…

I know I wasn’t the one asked, but it’s a public place right? Anyway, I’m an atheist and I read blogs like this one because they have endearing stories about family, because one should actually understand what people believe before you decide that you don’t agree, and because the writers usually have creative and funny ways of dealing with keyboard warrior jerks. (Believe me, as someone who doesn’t worry about going to hell for doing whatever I feel like, if someone came into a blog post of mine and started lecturing me about education and then posted an almost entirely incomprehensible paragraph in only their second post, I’d have nothing so nice as “Okay, well, it’s been a pleasure…” to say).

Regarding the subject of the blog post: I think that a 12 year old is still very young, and still very much a subject to their parent’s authority even though they have started to develop their independence. If a 12-year old friend of your child’s wanted to learn more about God, but the parents of that child were against it (obviously they wouldn’t like it, but I mean if they are “we would not want your kid around our kid if this continues” type against it), I would advise your kid to not push it. (Sorry if that’s not much help; I’m not a parent or anything. I’m just a former 12 year old).

It seems like there is a difference between what your five year old said: an astonishment that someone else might not believe as she did and trying to evangelize someone.  I agree with the above commenter who confessed an equal astonishment to the fact that other fathers didn’t work for IBM.  My son also finds it astonishing that there was a time when his father and I didn’t even know each other!  Ha!  I think these opportunities are teachable moments where we can teach manners, other beliefs, and how to mind our own business.  I am a whole-hearted Christian, but I truly think it is unhelpful to put pressure on our children to evangelize.  I think this sort of idea comes from our modern obsession with “the truth”.  I find it helpful to remember Jesus’ definition of the greatest commandment: Love God.  Love others. 

Having gone through my own dogmatic years where I was first in line to tell others how they should believe, I’m now convinced that what people believe really is none of my business and that unless someone asks me for my opinion or to share something about my faith, its’ better to respect our friendship.  And I don’t mean this in a fearful way, more as a response to Just Relax.  Instead, I find my vocation as a Christian to be to love others in Jesus’ name…to show forth what God is like by my actions - which, for starters, means serving in very practical ways…caring for the least of these, meeting felt needs, extending grace to others.

P.S. If the child was 12 years old, I would include them in whatever family practices we had when they were at our house, but not in a confrontational way.  Maybe I would respond to the child’s questions in a very matter of fact way and then let the parent know about it afterward.  If greater interest was expressed I would perhaps approach the parent and say: Your child has expressed interest in Christianity, and I thought to pass on this book to you.  Or to invite her to this youth event.

I would think that even if the parent says “no thanks” this sort of approach would have the lasting benefit of beginning a positive long term relationship rather than undermining the parents and trying to secretly convert the child.  I just know that as a parent I would be seriously upset if a parent of a different belief tried to secretly “convert” my kid.  And that would be the end of that friendship.  So I wouldn’t want to blindside another parent like that.

I am pretty sure we lost a friend because of this. Her mother came up to me and told me she overheard my daughter telling her daughter that there is only one God. I think she wanted me to apologize but instead I said, “Well, she is right. There is only one God.”

My daughter was around five years old. At that age, I think it is too confusing to explain that there are different belief systems and that we need to be respectful etc. The danger is that at an early age the child starts to believe that it doesn’t matter which faith you have - an early exposure to relativism.

My serious stock response when my kids ask about others lack of Faith is to let them know that many people take a long time to know God and that the best thing to do is to pray.

@Kate: “many people take a long time to know God”

I like that! We already describe Purgatory as “the long(er) way to heaven”, so it has a nice similarity. Thanks for the idea.

“I admit, I laughed and laughed when I heard this. And I was glad to hear that the idea of atheism had never occurred to her. It was as if someone had said, “Oh, I don’t believe in the color blue.” Inconceivable!”
The idea of atheism hasn’t occurred to her because you have been indoctrinating her with Christianity since birth (and if that’s what you want to do, that’s your prerogative). But don’t make it sound like the default position is a belief in God. If you had never mentioned God to her, she’d say, “What’s God?” when someone finally did bring it up.

Well, I know that this will probably offend EVERYONE who reads this, but…I do that sometimes.  It is not a sin to choose our friends wisely.  Not terribly wise to choose athiest friends for our Catholic children, but good luck with that.  And, my gosh, advising your child to keep her trap shut so as not too offend….isn’t it clear enough that we have been doing just that for FAR too long.  Boy, reading this made me a little heartsick.

@Paul S:  Um, of course she thinks that way because I’ve been teaching it to her.  I was pleased and delighted to discover that I’ve done a good job, just like I’m pleased and surprised when she automatically says “please” and “thank you.”

Paul I assume you are not blessed with children but here’s the scoop…GOOD PARENTING INVOLVES TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN whatever you believe to be good, true and worthy of the precious life they have been given. Surely even an old curmudgeon like you has seen the results of those who take their parenting seriously…and those who sadly never bother to love their kids enough to teach them how to live and love in this world. And yes, sometimes it involves just keeping silent. There is a time to know when to speak…and when to just be quiet. Wisdom is knowing the difference…and that comes with living as well as having been taught. Parents are a child’s first teacher and wise ones know that it is important to build strong foundations…just as in houses. For you to tell Simcha she is just “indoctrinating” is telling her to leave her child a blank slate ...and allow the world to fill it in before she has given her child the benefit of her own wisdom. That is just plain wrong..and stupid, excuse me!!

I want to apologize to you Simcha for saying “good luck with that” in my comment, it was unnecessary sarcasm.  I have a few very close friends and family members who are atheists and though I love them I am an adult with very solidified religious ideology.  Since my children aren’t formed yet, I admit that I fear exposing them to world views that may endanger their souls.  But, I do realize that there are many different approaches to parenting that can be equally effective and I was overly judgmental in my initial remarks.

Thank you, Melanie!  I know it’s hard to write things like this, and most people wouldn’t even bother. It certainly does matter what the situation is and what the child’s personality is like—but please don’t worry, my husband I are very careful about the way we raise our children.

I think you definitely handled this the right way. It’s good to evangelize, but not good to belittle, even if done unintentionally.

The one additional thought I have, though, is about befriending atheists. I’m kind of a live-and-let-live person generally and have friends and family who are atheist or agnostic, so I don’t really have a problem with people who have doubts or jus do not believe. But I have to say that I am very reticent to take on new friends, especially where my children are involved, who are atheists. I have no doubt that many atheists are fine people, as my atheist relatives most certainly are. But my concern is that a substantial number of non-believers I’ve come across in the past several years have been extremely openly hostile to any expression of faith on my part or that of my children. Many of those same people are more than happy to share their own beliefs and/or traditions with us, but the second they see one of my kids making the sign of the cross we get rants like those from the one commented above who apparently thinks teaching your children about your faith is child abuse.

So long as we can exist in a place of mutual respect for each other’s beliefs and practices, then I have no issues at all with being friendly with atheists. But, like I said, I’ve found that mutual respect to be a very rare to come by lately.

(And no, I don’t believe in letting my children play only with other Catholics. I believe in letting them play only with decent people, which this family is.)
Really!?
How about the decent family that tells her its ok to use contraception? How about the decent peoples kids that will introduce your kids to pornography?  You know, the decent secular humanist quasi-religious types who see some kind of god that supports their lifestyle and subtely, (and sometimes not so) denies your faith.
Decent families preach Christ crucified and risen; period.  You just let a big ship sail into your harbor raising red flags and warning you that if your kid continues to come over and support your family values, they will drop you like they did the last “religious family” they were friends with, and what did you do? You folded like a deck chair.  Do your kids need friends so badly you will sacrifice your authority and their souls to the solstice? Or maybe you need to be affirmed in your status as a “decent family”. What should you do?  Have your husband immediately inform your daughter that she will no longer be playing at the decent family’s house. She is 5, she probably has many other decent kids to play with, but this should be a warning to you that you need a much better filter than the “decent” filter you are using.

Well, what a pleasant fellow you are. Now go away and work on your anger issues in private, and keep you condemnations of my family to yourself.

Woe, easy there husband, your wife is a big girl, with a blog.  Mr. Ryan has quite a valid point and I have to agree with him.  We are all living in a secular world that’s tough to navigate at times.

No. Mr. Ryan is out of line. I’m being restrained. I thought Catholics had better critical read skills. Perhaps I was wrong.

“If I had to advise parents, I should tell them to take great care about the people with whom their children associate . . . Much harm may result from bad company, and we are inclined by nature to follow what is worse than what is better.”
//
St. Elizabeth Ann Seton
//
Right now your daughter and her friend are very young. It may seem quite innocuous to allow them to play together. But with time (right around age 8 seems to be when I see it happen), these other children from “decent” families will subtly introduce a whole world of immorality to your daughter based on the disparate belief systems in which they are being raised. It becomes very difficult and awkward to tell your children to break off certain friendships.
//
My parents were/are good and holy Catholics who saw that I received Catholic religious education. They had no choice but to send me to public schools where I associated with only children from “decent” families. I was a pretty independent thinker, but I was led down paths of sin by these children and even their “decent parents.” As a result, I bought into false philosophies and made sinful choices I regret to this day. Even though I “turned out all right in the end,” those sins, to which I likely would not have otherwise been introduced with a more selective exposure to good companions, cannot be undone.
//
It is a very different thing to evangelize others with our prayers and our example as adults in the world. We have already, presumably, received a strong formation in our faith. Children are in the process of being formed. Some do very well despite the risks, but too often the serpent is too cunning. This is why saint after saint exhort us to be very wary of our children’s companions.
//
I do not mean to condemn you or your family. I’m sure you care very deeply about raising good and holy children. But I think this article offers very ill advice to other parents in how their children are to engage a world of non-believers.

The Church teaches the Truth. We are not brainwashing our children and we can demonstrate this by respectfully arguing the reality and truth of Catholic teaching with our atheist adult friends here or elsewhere. The problem, as I often find, is that people can no longer argue. Feelings get hurt. I made a friend cry once and we were just talking about fire regulations in a bar. (Okay, the talk devolved into an abortion debate - I asked how one could be for regulating the seating capacities of bars and also be for abortion on demand - oops). I think it is great that atheists find the time to engage. If they are honestly trying to figure out the truth they will eventually come around. I want to teach my children respect but I don’t want them to remain silent because usually silence signals agreement to the people around us.

As you said, timing, context and tone are far beyond the reach of any 5-year-old. When the 5-yr-old is tossed unprepared into a delicate situation that would flummox most adults, she does very well to act like an innocent 5-yr-old child. The moms, on the other hand, may have been wise to discuss the predictable questions before they made the play date.
About evangelizing: How unfair is it to expect our children to evangelize other kids when we are afraid of upsetting their parents by doing the same?

@ Melanie and James Ryan et al:  no, I’m not a “big girl” - I’m a grown woman with many responsibilities, such as driving my kids around and making supper.  And so I don’t have the time or energy to explain this to you, so I’ll give you the short form:  not all atheists are dangerous, ravening, perverts, and not all Catholics are decent people I’d like my kids to be around. 

/

I fully agree that we must be very careful about whom our children associate with.  For instance, when a strange man accuses me of “sacrificing my children’s souls” because I let them play with dolls together in the afternoon, I would say, “See there, kiddies?  This is a man who doesn’t understand his faith very well.  He is not a clear thinker, and sounds a little bit unhinged.  Stay away from him, because you can pick up all kinds of dangerous ideas from him, which will lead you astray.”

I’m sorry to sound snippy, but how many times do we have to learn the lesson that outward appearances are not enough to judge people by?  Scandal, anyone?  Maciel, anyone?  Is this ringing a bell?  You can’t just assume that Catholic=good, non-Catholic=dangerous.  You NEVER could assume that, but these days there’s simply no EXCUSE for assuming that. 

/

There are whole support groups dedicated to the wives of fine, upstanding Catholic men who say the rosary every night and teach CCD on Saturdays—and have a whopping porn addiction.  And there are people who don’t know God, or who are not ready to call themselves believers, but whose hearts are full of love and concern for their children, just like yours and mine are.

Simcha—I agree that one has to be selective even among Catholic associations. (And, no that doesn’t mean having to judge souls by outward appearances—just making prudential choices.) No, we can’t see everything in a person’s heart, but we can still see a lot by people’s choices and professed beliefs. Beliefs have consequences with regard to moral choices. Always.

My take for what its worth.  Teaching your child not to belittle those who don’t beliewe in God or dress up as TMNTs for Halloween is important, it is good manners.  But I would worry about telling a child not to talk about God in front of children who don’t have the same faith or any faith at all.  Kids have a natural love for God and the church and sometimes it is that wonder that brings people to God and the church.  I have heard so many people who end up back in church because their kids wanted to go… so who knows maybe they were being evangelized on the playground.  I wouldn’t go around telling my kids to evangelize and I would teach manners and respect at all times, but I wouldn’t want to squelch a natural impulse to talk about things that matter to them.  We get a lot of questions along the lines of “why don’t people do….” and depending on the issue the answer is because a)they don’t know b)they don’t understand c)they choose to do something else.

What’s an uberCath? Why do you disparage us on your other blog, “I Have To Sit Down”? We don’t mean to give you trouble, but are sharing our experiences. Have patience with loving advice from good people. After all, you asked us for our input. PS: If uberCath means what I think it means, I aspire to be one!

ThirstforTruth said: “Paul I assume you are not blessed with children but here’s the scoop…GOOD PARENTING INVOLVES TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN whatever you believe to be good, true and worthy of the precious life they have been given.
You know what happens when you assume, right? I am a father and I do involve myself teaching my child what I believe to be true. In my case, the truth I teach does not involve any religious ideas.

ThirstforTruth said: “For you to tell Simcha she is just “indoctrinating” is telling her to leave her child a blank slate ...and allow the world to fill it in before she has given her child the benefit of her own wisdom. That is just plain wrong..and stupid, excuse me!!

Amazing ThirstforTruth! Somehow you’ve been able to condense my thoughts into your holier-than-thou summation. Do you really believe that I’m telling her to leave her child a blank slate and allow the world to fill it in before she has given her child the benefit of her own wisdom? Please. All I did was point out that a 5 year old who is “taught” (is that a better word than indoctrinate?) religion from the get go wouldn’t have an inkling of what atheism is. No one is born with a belief in God. That’s something that is taught. And one doesn’t need religion to be a kind, loving, giving person.

And that’s the problem, Carroll.

Oh, brother.  Okay, if anyone is interested, I put the following comment in my other blog:  “The uberCaths are making me crazy.”  By “uberCaths” I meant people who identify so strongly as Catholics that they are incapable of recognizing worth in anyone or anything that isn’t Catholic.  Not really something to aspire to.  You’re right, though, I did solicit your opinion, and so I apologize for being rude.  I guess it was the blanket condemnation of my parenting skills by James Ryan, above, that made me testy.

/

Carroll, in response to your sensible question: “About evangelizing: How unfair is it to expect our children to evangelize other kids when we are afraid of upsetting their parents by doing the same?” my answer is that of course we adults should be willing and ready to evangelize other adults.  But charging in and shrieking, “I PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED” as James Ryan apparently does is not, in my opinion, especially effective.  There are many types of evangelization.  If someone tells you about a nasty experience they had with a rude religious person, then how effective do you suppose it will be to say, “Wow, that’s interesting.  Hey, wanna go to church with me next week?  We have the Truth.”  Preaching to someone who doesn’t want to hear it, or when the time isn’t right, is WORSE than saying nothing.

@PaulS:  Yes, “teach” is a better word than “indoctrinate.”  If you don’t want people to jump to conclusions about you, it’s better not to use inflammatory language about their behavior.

I interpreted “uber” to mean “superlative.” You are using it as “extreme.”

Yep, you’re right.  Forgot my German, I guess.

Actually, no, I take it back: “uber” can indicate the following:
  elevation: “überdacht” - roof-covered, roofed, [also: reconsidered, thought over]
  quantity: “über 100 Meter” - more than 100 meters, “Überschall” - supersonic
  superiority: “überlegen” - (adj) superior, elite, predominant. (verb) to consider
  excess: “übertreiben” - to exaggerate, “überfüllt” - overcrowded

Why would you let your children hang out with Atheists??  So when they are 12 and understand the concept of truth, but are not fully invested in it, you will let them possibly be diverted by kids that don’t believe?

I will protect my children and let them interact with other traditional Catholic children, so they do not have to deal with the secular TV watching non-sense children.

But why wouldn’t you let your kids evangelize to others?  Because they are not supposed to until they are fully formed adults. 

Surely as a parent, you should have their family over to evangelize, but never should you leave your children alone with theirs.

Your job as a parent is to keep your children’s soul in the best possible order of truth, and comprimising it when they are older will be paid for dearly.  I know that is not what you were intending, but most parents with good intentions have kids that don’t follow the faith.

Good luck! May God Bless them!

Let’s get back to Catholicism.

I don’t remember ever being “allowed” or “not allowed” to play with anyone in particular.  My parents had VERY strong Catholic beliefs, and those beliefs were passed down to us.  And I still hold these beliefs, strongly as well.  But what made the biggest impression on me as a child was seeing how my parents treated people.  My mother may very well have picketed everything you stood for, but if you showed up at her house, she’d invite you in and offer you dinner. Catholic is as Catholic does.

And she threw me out of her house!  Quite right, too.

Or wait, she took someone in that my mother threw out.  I forget.  Anyway, she definitely gave everyone dinner.

@Paul S

“No one is born with a belief in God. That’s something that is taught.”

This may not be the place (have a blog? please post link!), but I’d be interested in reading a serious defense of this claim. As an English teacher with a bent for World Literature, I’d have to say that I’ve rarely encountered pagan thinkers and writers who aren’t, well, pagan. That is, when you look around at the cultural record left us from all parts of the world from all ages of history, you are left with a remarkably ubiquitous case of inherent belief in the Supernatural, which we Catholics assess as the recollection of the Triune God distorted by the Fall.

C.S. Lewis made a similar case for the Moral Law in his short book, “The Abolition of Man,” and quotes extensively from a smorgasbord of world cultures to prove a common, natural, inherent sense of the Moral Law. In the first half of “The Everlasting Man,” G.K. Chesterton surveys all stripes of Paganism, and while a dreary mockery of pagan ritual is noted of certain late Greco-Roman philosophers and worldlings, nothing of the strict so-called Scientific Atheism of segments of our culture appears.

In fact, the evidence of human history strongly supports the idea that belief in God is part and parcel of being human, whereas it is Atheism that must be “taught.” For Catholics, who see the Truths of the Faith readily inculturated to all cultural traditions, it is merely a matter of bringing the inherent sense of God into the pellucid light of Revelation and the teachings of the Church. But how do you account for all this?

Yeah, (poor Simcha, half of these comments are off-topic!), I would guess that at best you could say that “most people are not born with the idea of God (or gods or other type of non-physical reality)” but you couldn’t apply this to “all people”. If not one single person was born with the idea of God, where did it come from?. Who first taught it to humans, and who taught it to that person? (It couldn’t have come from God in this scenario, since we are assuming he doesn’t exist).

Aren’t prayers to the infant Jesus, singing to baby Jesus, and the Hail Mary a bit confusing? I mean, Jesus is a grown man, and Mary doesn’t have anyone in her womb. You’d have to live about two thousand years ago for that to make any sense. Realize this: Catholicism has to be the Roman Callgirl talked about throughout many a Scripture. Lord, in Yeshua’s name, open their ears that they may hear. AMEN

Thank you, anonymous. Now the Circle of Crazy is complete. Nice touch signing it “anonymous” too. Classy.

This isn’t a discussion about the verity of Catholicism anymore than it’s a discussion of the merits of atheism. It’s about how to live a life of faith in the world, and how to teach kids to do so. As Simcha rightly pointed out, that includes showing respect for others’ beliefs and, when kids are concerned, for the authority of their parents. Respect isn’t the same as capitulation. It’s just basic human decency and giving them the same freedom to choose that God gives us.

Anonymous@..Why would you come to this blog and insult all the Catholics reading and commenting here with your ignorance and prejudice against the Church? No wonder you wish to remain anonymous! Where did you go from here? Over to the Jewish blogs ...and sing the praises of Hitler and his holocaust?
You speak from ignorance and cowardice. What you write makes no sense at all to those who know Scripture…and The Word! Indeed you are more than confused. If you really are interested in correcting your thinking you might try reading the works of Dr. Scott Hahn, a former anti-Catholic who converted to the Faith and has written much on what some people profess (falsely)about the Catholic Church! Things that he too, like you and others, one time believed to be true about the Church until he began to study its history and the Church Fathers writings. Today he is one of the leading theologians of the Catholic faith. My prayers are for you to be exorcized of your extreme anger and hatred toward those who wish only that you might be open to Truth in the Person of Jesus Christ and the Church he founded..which still exists today. God bless!

I used to belong to an uberCatholic homeschooling group.  Only about 2% of the other boys there were kids I’d want my boys to hang out with. The rest were wild, crazy, undisciplined—because the parents had followed the traditional think-mode of “girls help out and are quiet, dutiful and decent” and boys are allowed to roam abroad and not expected to behave.  I’m not being facetious; I’ve seen this in all the traditional Latin Mass churches I’ve attended—the girls are wearing their veils and sitting quietly, the boys are squirming and trying to pester their siblings, while the moms and dads sit there pretty much oblivious.  I see it in my in laws (also uberCaths).  The girls are expected to be little mothers to the younger siblings, but the boys are allowed to roam free-range.

my son also ‘evangelized’ the only Jewish kid on the school bus one day by asking her why she didn’t believe in Jesus.  When her mom and I met one another the next time, she related the kids’ conversation to me, which opened the door wide fro me to share my faith with her and to guide my son in sharing HIS faith without questioning the other’s.  Offering a gift seems much more loving than analyzing a personal, intimate value which cannot be viewed with objectivity anyway.

Simcha - our family moved across the street from an Atheist family who are some of the most upstanding, ethical people I’ve ever known. Our 5 and 7 year olds became best friends with their girls who were the same ages. They still (20-something and strong Catholics both) count them among their best friends. Their mother and I had a couple of good, honest discussions at the beginning about, for instance, whether it was ok for them to watch Catholic videos at our house (yes was the answer).

The foundation that we laid with our five children was one of abiding respect for the dignity of others. We tried to convey a respect for our neighbors without sending the message that their choices were just as good as ours. And we made the Truth clear to them without sending the message that those who did not agree were to be judged.

The result? Wonderful relationships and moments of relational, respectful evangelization. For instance I remember driving my younger daughter and her friend as they had an animated discussion about guardian angels. Her friend was delighted when my daughter told her that, yes, she too had a guardian angel - it didn’t matter whether she and her family believed, it was a gift God gave to everyone!

Most will be surprised to hear that the biggest struggle I had was in educating them about the faith within the context of wonderful atheists! I could no longer rely on judgment or “we have it all and look at those poor souls who don’t” kinds of arguments. It was a challenge, but in the end a good one. I was forced to communicate a more beautiful and deeper version of our faith than I might have otherwise.

There I did it - created a wall of words when I was determined not to! Simcha - no one knows your little ones like you do. God will give you all you need as you lovingly guide them (as opposed to fabricating them) to become beautiful versions of the selves God created them to be. You’ve chosen not to do that in a “hothouse” environment where everything is controlled, but in a garden where you may need to keep a closer watch and run out there with an umbrella or add fertilizer as needed! God bless!

janen7, I really appreciate this response.  I likewise have a good non-believer friend, who would probably count himself as an atheist.  But he nonetheless respects the Catholic faith, and he’s asked me some very good questions about it in a way that nobody has before, because he’s genuinely curious, as opposed to seeking to trip anyone up.  We’re actually on the same page about many things, intellectually and even morally.  So now that I know that those kinds of fruitful discussions are possible, the challenge would be to impart that mutual respect to our children, should my husband-to-be and I be blessed with any.

@ Chris- I’m sure there are myriad places on the web that discuss whether or not people are born with a belief in God. I can sum my thoughts like this: Everyone is born an IMPLICIT atheist, meaning they have not thought it over, but they are atheists by default because they do not possess a positive, affirmative belief in any specific deity. It’s only when some outside force (i.e. parents) introduces the idea of a deity to them that they could even possibly begin to think about it. As a thought exercise, imagine a child born on a desert island. The child’s mother dies and the child is old enough to survive. Under the assumption that the mother hasn’t broached the subject of religion, do you think the child will come to believe in God on his/her own? I find it a ridiculous notion that he/she could. But that’s just me.

@ Tyler - The idea of God (or gods) didn’t just appear overnight. Religions have evolved (pun intended) since long before written, recorded history. People had no explanation for the natural occurences that happened in the world around them. Ancient peoples were ignorant (though that’s not their fault), superstitious, and were formed in distinct tribes. It’s no wonder they thought gods were responsible for everything that happened to them. And they obviously would have thought that their beliefs and gods were the real truth.

@ Paul S - Ah, I see where my thinking went wrong. Thanks for responding.

re: Mr Paul S - my thinking is, it takes a whole lot more faith (and possibly medication) to believe what you believe (or don’t) then for me to believe in what I believe.

@ThirstforTruth
I am very curious about the Catholic faith also. Which book would you recommend from Dr. Hahn.  Thanks.

capitalcee@ Dr Scott Hahn has written numerous books which can be googled at Amazon.com to preview. For those who are interested in his own faith journey into the Catholic Church I would recommend the following:
(1) ROME SWEET ROME (written with his wife Kimberly Hahn who followed
              her husband eventually into the Church)
  (2)  WHY A PROTESTANT PASTOR BECAME CATHOLIC
Among other books written by him also:
  (3)  REASONS TO BELIEVE
  (4)  ANSWERING THE NEW ATHEISM
These are good works of his to begin with but if you continue with his
writings you will find many, many more at Amazon.com.
If you are truly wanting to know more about the Catholic faith you might also be interested in the EWTN network (Eternal Word Television Network)and specifically the program The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi…another converted Pastor from the Baptist church, shown weekly, and repeated at various times. You can locate the network schedule for this program by again googling EWTN.com. Hope this information will be fruitful for you and God bless you on your journey of faith.

@ThirstforTruth
Thank you so much!

bob cratchit said: “my thinking is, it takes a whole lot more faith (and possibly medication) to believe what you believe (or don’t) then for me to believe in what I believe.”
Well bob, since you don’t know me, it makes no difference to me what you think I believe (or don’). I’m not sure I understand the medication implication either. Do you think that since we may have differing opinions on religion, that I must be on drugs because I don’t think like you? As far as my view on faith goes, I’ll leave that to Robert Ingersoll: The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.

@Paul…NEWSFLASH!!! Superstition, religion, and faith…altogether different entities! As a Christian, I would say much the same about
superstition, magic, etc.as probably you believe. Faith and hope are
none of these albeit some might argue that some “religion”, such as Voodoo, is steeped in superstition. Faith and reason of the Christian faith is not based upon nor supports superstition altho some atheists and others, in their own ignorance of Christianity, may find it so. The foundation of Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Incarnated Son of God, whose historical existence is well documented. But having said all this, under-lying most superstition is the intrinsic need in all men to
search for truth ...the fullness of which is found in Christ, the Redeemer of all men. The point of this blog…Simcha’s original question, is only dimly related to the point you bring up but I think it was a point that should not be just left hanging in mid’air. Unfortunately it doesnot address remotely the original question Simcha posed…which is what happens in the commentaries on most blogs by this time. As the late Bishop Fulton Sheen was known to have said..“Truth remains the Truth even if no one believes it”...as well as “error remains error even if everyone believes it”! Adios..and God bless!

@ ThirstforTruth…I understand your wanting to keep superstition as far away from Christianity as possible. The term “superstitious” has always included a negative judgment of irrationality, childishness, or primitiveness. Unfortunately, the separation of traditional religions and superstition isn’t such an easy endeavor. Both are non-materialistic in nature. Each presumes the added presence of immaterial forces which influence or control the course of our lives. Both also desire to provide meaning and coherence to otherwise random and chaotic events. Religions and superstitions both expect one to avoid certain actions and perform other actions in order to ensure that they do not fall victim to the unseen forces at work in our world. I am not making a point by point comparison equating religion with superstition. Rather, I am arguing that both spring from the same basic human needs and desires. I’d also like to take issue with your statement, “...Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Incarnated Son of God, whose historical existence is well documented.” Even if I agreed (which I don’t) that there is well documented historical existence of a man named Jesus, that physical existence does not give any credence to any claim that this person is Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, or the Incarnated Son of God. Those are mere assertions for which you have no evidence (save an ancient text whose authorship is unknown).

My apologies to Simcha if the conversation has deviated from the original question.

Paul S@...Since the documentation for the historical evidence as well as reasonable arguments that Jesus is who He said He is are NOT the subject really of this blog I will not take the time or space to respond to your fallacies in logic or errors in judgement of the documented history. If you want to know the full answer to either or both of these issues you bring up I would refer you to Pope Benedict’s works (both Book one and two ) that are currently available and being widely read and acclaimed by many Christians of all denominations as well as those who might better be called agnostic at best… the Jesus of Nazareth series… available thru Amazon.com. If the interest is there! This does not seem the place for that discussion.

@ ThirstforTruth..The Pope really isn’t my idea of a non-partisan author who would look at the evidence without prejudice. And I don’t doubt that his book is widely read and acclaimed by many Christians of all denominations. Like the good bishop said, “...error remains error even if everyone believes it.” That being said, I will take a look at his writings. Thanks for the tip.

I’d like to second (or third or fourth or whatever - I’m not reading all the comments) Laura’s early post: “Sometimes all the Holy Spirit needs is us to actually live like Christians.”
//
It’s a good first step, setting that example.  I know I know, they should be looking for the TRUUUUTH, not just happy feelings.  But most people start off not knowing they’re looking for the Truth.  After all, God created us as emotional AND rational beings - there is nothing wrong with connecting emotionally to someone else’s life, and flowing into Christ from there.

@ Paul S….as a Catholic I find it somewhat ironic when atheists want to make the tired old argument about ‘superstition’ and imply that belief in God is rooted in blind faith. It simply isn’t true. I see in your previous posts you comment on religion being used as something to ‘explain natural occurences’ in the world around them out of ‘ignorance’. Let’s explore that line of thinking…. I’m going to assume then (and correct me if I’m wrong) that you are an atheist that believes in a natural universe, i.e. a universe where everything is either: a natural process; or the result of a natural process. This being the case my question to you is…do you believe you have free will?
@Simcha….Just discovered your blog, and as a new parent I’m really enjoying reading it. I think your approach is a good one for what it’s worth!

“So I was worried. But the mother was concerned about something different: It seems that my daughter somehow found out that her daughter, who is four, doesn’t believe in God. And my daughter’s tactful response was, “You don’t believe in GOD?!?!?!? You don’t BELIEVE in God?!?!?! YOU don’t believe in God?!?!?! You DON’T believe in God?!?!?!” and so on for several minutes.”

## A child doing this in the UK would be given a telling-off, and quite rightly so. One squirms just reading that kind of thing. How is it any different from occasions when Fundamentalist children preach sermons ? I can’t see any great difference.

There is a time and place for doing this or that. It’s interesting that belief in God is not one of the good things done by the sheep in the parable in Matthew 25; conversely, belief in God is no protection against behaving horribly - “the demons believe, and tremble”, and precious little good that will do them.

Many times in the past I’ve worried about being a coward.  These days I tend to regret what I say as much as what I don’t.  I begin to feel that God is calling me to do something difficult, namely, to take the big mouth I was graced with and learn when to keep it shut, or at least not to be so careless of what comes out.

GoodReasonNews wrote:
I was linked here by a friend on twitter, I’ve never read this blog before.

Yet something motivated GRN to come back several times over the course of two hours… :)

I praise God for enthusiasm of children.  It’s no mystery why Christ “called a little child to him [this child was likely around the age of your daughter]...and said ‘Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:2-3).  Children are not a jaded due to culture, political correctness, and fear.  NOTE: I agree with your point about respect, but just because a parent doesnt agree with the truth of the Gospel doesnt mean that your child is disrespectful. 
If we continue in Matthew 18 to verse 6, it cautions us, “if anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-so stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.  Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble!”
Praise your daughter for her commitment to share her passion for God.  Coach her on how to share more effectively but stop encouraging the apathy that is a cancer to the movement of the Spirit.

I am praying for your friend, your friend’s family and yours.

Your brother in Christ,
JWhit

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I know this is an older thread, but I wanted to respond to your question about why atheists post responses to Catholic blogs. I am an agnostic, and a couple of (nice) children in my seven-year-old daughter’s class told her that she was going to Hell because she said she does not believe in God.  I asked Google how best to handle this, and came across your blog. :)

I was delighted to read your perspective on a similar encounter (although your child didn’t say the other child was going to Hell, of course.)  I think the dialogue you had with the atheist mother was very healthy, and perhaps in the future I’ll be having a similar dialogue with a parent.

Incidentally, I would be fine with another child responding to my child’s lack of belief with something like, “Well, I do believe in God and Jesus, and I believe they love me and that they love you too.”  But telling a seven-year-old that she is going to Hell feels like something different to me that lacks tolerance.