Ahhh….are you potty training one of your little ones, too?  (per your last line) This summer will be our first attempt at potty training a boy.  Girls are easy, but I’m a bit daunted by this upcoming adventure!  Anyone who wants to hold open any restroom doors for me, I’ll be running through them with a little one learning the art of careful aim!

I wrote this recently in a Facebook post; seems a nice compliment to what you’ve said!

“I love the notion of men treating women with special honor, and it’s a concept that I was first introduced to only a few years ago.  I was blessed to attend Ave Maria College from 2002 - 2006, and it was there that I first ran into guys who wanted to carry things for us, hold open doors, escort us home, and offer their coats when we were cold, just because we were girls.  I fell in love with idea and since then, have tried to be gracious whenever I see glimmers of chivalry around me.

There is, however, a fine line between being a gentleman and totally missing the mark.  The following are times when, despite good intentions, the results are less than desirable.

1. Don’t insist on doing the “gentlemanly thing” when she has refused the offer.

Much as you may want to do the right thing, a gentleman does not force his assistance upon a girl.  I’ve had guys practically shove me out of the way so that they can hold open the door for me, or volubly argue with me about letting them carry something.  At this point, the goal of the action—to honor me as a woman—is obscured by his desire to be the gentleman… which completely takes the focus off the girl (whose presence is what makes his action meaningful) and puts it on the guy instead.

2. Do not make her feel bad about accepting your offer.

I’ve seen guys offer their coats to a girl, and then make a big production out of how cold they are.  Or let her have the front seat and then complain about how little leg room they have in the back.  A true gentleman never makes a girl uneasy about his sacrifice; in fact, she should not be aware that it IS a sacrifice.  If you are not prepared to suffer it out in silence, DO NOT OFFER.  It’s tacky, childish, and puts her in an awkward position.  A lady should never feel that her very femininity has somehow inconvenienced you.

3. Never EVER ask if she needs assistance.

I’ll bet you’re surprised at this one. :)

Asking a girl if she NEEDS help has two problems with it.  The first is the suggestion of weakness, that she cannot handle it herself.  Which may be true in some cases, but it’s not very gentlemanly to point it out!  Many girls are quite capable, and to imply that they are not is rude.  Not only that, but we do not always have a man handy in our lives to handle even the tough stuff, so it’s often necessary to be self-reliant.

The second problem is that the POINT of chivalry is not because she is weak; it’s not because she can’t do it; it’s not because men are better at doing whatever it is.  The reason behind it (at least, that’s supposed to be) is simply because she is beautiful and the crowning glory of God’s creation and you want to please her.  That’s it.

So, don’t ask if she needs help; offer your help.  If she’s being pestered by some inappropriate guy, don’t wait for her to plead for intervention; take it upon yourself.  If her arms are full, come up and offer to carry it.  If she’s cleaning up a big mess, pitch in without complaint and don’t talk about that other thing you were wanting to do instead.  Most girls would rather do something themselves than have to deal with a reluctant guy!

Being a gentleman isn’t necessarily hard, but it seems that many are confused about what it actually means.  Our culture certainly impedes understanding with its condemnation of femininity and obliteration of masculinity. But not all is lost.  Deep down, guys still like to be the hero and girls still like to be treated as special, and both respond to opportunities that fulfill that desire.  As for knowing HOW to be a gentleman, just remember that ultimately, chivalry is about being gracious, to regard every woman as deserving of your respect, and never making it about YOU.”

I love when people open doors for me, and I open doors for people, men included. Some older men get flustered by this, and I sometimes acquiesce, realizing that they see it as their duty and role to do this for women.  I also think they worry that they look feeble, and think this younger woman is taking pity on them…and one thing men DO NOT LIKE is to think they appear feeble.  So I just smile and stand back, and let them open the door if they insist. It’s nice to live in a society where people are helpful to each other.

Just want to defend the site a bit (not that you criticized it) - I have visited it a few times and like what I have seen, laughed at a few posts and shared a few w/ my oldest son.  His dad is quite the man so he’s learning well but seeing some things in print, on-line adds some credibility.  Just saying.

And as for this post - yes, yes, yes.  Giving all the time without ever asking ‘what’s in it for me’ should be true for both men and women.  You do things out of love for Christ and love for them never for what you will get in return.  Sure, it is hard to develop such selflessness but isn’t that what becoming more like Christ is all about.

yup. what theresa said.

I hardly ever experienced chivalry outside of my own relationship with my husband, until we moved to a parish with a very active Knights of Columbus chapter and he joined. Wow, do those men know how to treat their “ladies” - who in turn respect and admire their husbands and make that clear to all who will listen! I absolutely love it, and I love that my kids are surrounded by so many truly blessed marriages. When it comes time for them to consider vocations, they’ll have all these memories of the graces of marriage (as well as truly holy priests). Too bad we don’t have any nuns around us to provide another example to our daughters… what a trifecta of grace-through-vocations that would be!

Side note: when we were dating, my husband let me in on a criteria that he and his brothers had for judging whether a girl might be a good fit. The rule was that they always opened the car door for girls; in turn, it might be a good match if the girl then reached over the other seat and unlocked the boy’s door before he could get there and had to unlock it with the key (back in the day…). That rule wouldn’t work too well anymore, what with automatic locks, but I thought it was a good indicator of the likelihood that the girl would appreciate and respect him as much as he did her. 6 years and 4 kids later attest to the fact that I always unlocked his door from the inside. ;-)

I have to disagree with some suggestions in the first paragraph. The author suggests that being a man is something that cannot be learned, “Either you is a man, or you ain’t.” I think that being a man is something that must be learned. It is my opinion that we have too few males in our culture willing to accept the sacrifices and responsibilities necessary to be a Christian man, and that this is something that must be taught. Now, whether or not those principles can be taught to an adult male (as compared to an adolescent or teenage) is most debatable. But it can and must be taught to boys (by men), otherwise they’ll never stop being boys…

When I was in college there were a group of freshman who applied to the Student Government to recognize what they called the “Gentleman’s Club” as an official campus club. When asked to define the role of the club and its contributions to campus they splurted out the slogan, “Bringing chivalry back!” When asked how the club activities would be, they replied, “We will mainly wear nice clothes, smoke cigars, and drink coke out of bottles.” For some reason they were never recognized by the university.

That being said I agree with the overall premise of the author’s post. There is a cult of manliness that tries to compensate for this widespread arrested development.  What this cult fails to realize is that anyone can be manly. The common mistake is to define manhood by doing manly things, but the fulfillment of manhood cannot be reduced to cooking bacon, growing facial hair, or making gadgets out of used Altoid tins. That being said, all of those things are fun, which is why the websites exist.

RE:  “inclusive language”  Did anyone ever point out that the only people who use inclusive language for dogs are breeders.

Oh heck yeah! My husband isn’t noticeably chivalrous. What he does do is care for me, and he’s extremely generous in that. While I loved dating men who opened doors and waited to eat until everything was served and everyone seated, I married my husband because of the genuine love he offers. So, yes, I rather have the deeper more committed love than the show-offy type any day.

Right now we are potty training our only boy, and I have to say I do not look forward to the day when he wants to stand.

“Either you is a man, or you ain’t. I don’t really think it’s the kind of thing you can learn.”

It not only can be learned it must learned and it must be taught by a Christian Father or it will be learned through the Hip Hop Media or Ultimate Fighting or all of the Girlie-Men TV Stars, like the hen-pecked sissy who starred on, “Raymond.”

Feral children learn how to act like the animals that raised them and male children must learn how to act like a man from their Christian Father and female children must learn how to act like women from their Christian Mother. Back in the day that was a Christian Tautology.

Real men don’t use “gender” when referring to sex.

We were at a wedding last weekend- it was a good place to lecture my girls on gender roles

A real man dances at a wedding- either because he wants to or he knows his wife/girlfriend wants to. A real man doesn’t need 6 drinks to loosen up enough to dance. And a real woman doesn’t insist that her husband/boyfriend dance all night if he truly hates it.

Simcha- thanks for the manly blog- I like it!

Just an amusing story your post brings to mind. Years ago my mom got a flat tire in a rough part of town while driving a load of kindergarteners to the Smithsonian. A huge, burly, imposing-looking fellow approached and asked with profound formality (imagine the deepest baritone possible): “Madam, are you a woman who insists upon exercising her equality, or would you welcome some assistance at this point?”

She gratefully welcomed his assistance, for which he would accept no payment—said it would insult him. Mom asked him if, as his question indicated, he’d ever had anyone refuse help. He said he had been frantically screamed at more than once by women in DC for offering to help with car problems.

In their defense, maybe those women were frightened of a big man in a dangerous neighborhood and “feminism” was a pretext. But since then I’ve always been both amused and bemused by his image of people shrewishly discouraging kindnesses when people care to offer them, as if to say, “Don’t tell me what kind of a day to have!”

Have you seen Erin Manning’s response to the idea of how women must now pay for the little courtesies by ceding our voting rights?:

http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2011/06/message-to-us-evil-pants-wearing.html

Vermont crank is right on the mark. A few generations of fatherless boys combined with the feminist war on masculinity has resulted in the concept of manliness being lost.

The best way for boys to learn to be men is from watching their fathers. Too many boys do not get the benefits of having a father model what it means to be a man. There just is no one around to teach them.

That is why there is, sadly, a place for a site like the Art of Manliness.

hmmm I have a door opening story. One day a very done-up blond with a short skirt was directly in front of me exiting a convenience store. The man entering the store propped the door open, checking her out while simultaneously dropping the door in my face. Seriously, I was directly behind her.  That sends a message, let me tell ya.

p.s. my DH reads Art of Manliness. I’m ok with it. Just saying.

Teresa, so good! so true!

Perhaps a part of the problem is that we have absolutely wrecked our language in the name of “Political Correctness.”  Even this excellent article has done it.  I am female, a woman, my sex is female.  I hope my gender is feminine.  My husband, whose sex is male, is definitely masculine in all the best senses of the term.  In the English language we have three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter.  When offered the choice of genders with a blank line to fill out, I always write neuter.  I know that there are males (sex) whose gender tends to be feminine.  Once upon a time we had a cousin word to describe them.  Definitely, it was accurate, but not politically correct.  Hurrah for the members of the male sex who are willing to be masculine.  The world is a better place for their existence.

I really enjoyed the site mentioned and the article on opening doors.

re: careful aim. when training a little boy: put a single sheet of TP in the water and tell them to try to hit it. If you are really creative, keep a marker in the bathroom and put an X or bulls eye on the TP first. This might also work for an older child or even a husband.

My son attends a Catholic University (a conservative one, at that) and many of the girls are very insulted when he opens doors for them!  He is shocked at the reactions (or mean words) that are said to him as he tries to do what his father and I have taught him to do. What a shame!

First, for boys potty training, Cherrios make excellent targets.
Second, the Art of Manliness website is about doing manily things, and how to do them, but it is also about being virtuous and fulfilling your manily resposibilities.  It is about culture most of all, true manily, polite, courageous, dignified, distinguished, capable and chivalrous culture.  I would also mention another great site for men, fathersforgood.org.  It is run by the Knight sof Columbus and had a zillion resources.  Men, I’d suggest you frequent both often.  One last recomendation, “Be a Man” by Father Larry Richard.

All I have to say is that if someone is holding open a door for me, the only thing I’m saying is “Thank you” - whether it’s a man, woman, or three-legged dog.

Good point about the “outwardly chivalrous” misogynists out there, and especially their penchant for calling their wives “brides.”  I’d go even further - to me, as soon as a guy calls his mature wife, mother of his four (or whatever number of) children his “lovely bride,” I immediately suspect he’s one of those guys.  I mean, isn’t it actually more belittling than complimentary?  As if the wedding and the pretty young bride were the high point, and the actual marriage and the wife are all downhill.  (I might possibly have a certain skirt-promoter in mind here!)

I’m sorry, but the main thing that gets me about the whole idea of chivalry is the premise that women are special. Women are not special. Women are not better than men in any way, nor is the flip statement true. How can men and women be equal if women are special? In my opinion, gender equality (or gender neutrality) is about taking individuals for who they are without regard to their gender. If I’m a good person, or if I’m not, that’s that. I don’t believe that being a good woman should have different qualifications from being a good man.

ARM, my husband would never refer to me in public as his “bride”—he’s just not verbally showy in that way—but I can’t imagine why it would be belittling if he did.  Seems to me lovely and romantic—a small expression that a man cherishes and honors his wife as he did when they first promised themselves to one another.  I don’t get the connection between bride and immaturity either.  Most brides are young women (many of whom are immature, no doubt).  But a woman can be a bride at most any age, and at least within the Jewish and Christian traditions, bridal imagery connotes not immaturity but self-giving.  Hence faithful nuns and sisters grow into the most beautiful kind of maturity as “Brides of Christ.”

Seems to me that this is akin to men opening doors for women, or wives making the occasional lunch with cookies for their husband—it’s one of those optional but special things that makes life together a little more sweet.  Not to say that it couldn’t be intended in a demeaning way, or said by someone who demeans his wife in other respects.  But it doesn’t seem intrinsically demeaning—quite the opposite.

FWIW, I’m wearing black slacks as I write this, and that’s pretty dressy for me on a weekday.

You hit the nail on the head!  I totally agree with you about all that “inclusive language” garbage.  It makes for poor theology, weak language, and it insults the female intellect.  Shame on the women who promoted it in the first place!  Way to go, Simcha!

“I’m not very familiar with this website, The Art of Manliness; but I’ve always felt that one of the last manly things a man can do is to talk about manliness. Either you is a man, or you ain’t. I don’t really think it’s the kind of thing you can learn.”

No, no, this is wrong all the way home. First, if you’re not familiar with the website, how are you able to say anything about it? Second, the men who go there probably don’t claim to be very manly: that’s why they go there. Third, it’s utter rubbish to say one is a man or one isn’t. I mean, where does that even begin to make sense? What, there’s a manly gene or something? Then where did you get off complaining about the lack of men in your post on vasectomies? If men can’t help not being manly, then you’ve no grounds to criticize them for it, have you? No, manliness may be natural for some, but for the rest of us, it is something learned over time.

“So, we have websites like this, which discuss boar bristle shaving brushes and more vital topics, too. In the words of Elliot Gould’s Marlowe in The Long Goodbye, it’s okay with me. Good for them, for talking about the things that nobody’s father is around to tell them anymore.”

I hope you don’t mean to imply that we need your permission. By the way, men don’t just go to AoM for the sake of the whole world. Sometimes we go there because we find things that we need as men, things that make us happier, things that make our lives better, things that bring needed clarity to our own problems.

Simcha, there is a slight but clear tone of condescension toward men that comes through many of your posts. It came through in a big way when you wrote about vasectomies. It’s disrespectful. I don’t know if this is only a feature of the Catholic blogosphere, but from what I have seen, there are many Catholic women who are unable to appreciate men as human beings. I mean, I can hear your response already - “Aww, poor babies.” Do you have something against men? That is the impression I have after reading your posts. You really seem to have some discomfort with our sex. As with most Catholic women authors and commenters, you don’t speak about men for their own sake, but only in terms of yourself and what we men should be doing for *you*. I can’t speak for other guys, but I am tired of hearing speak as if I myself don’t matter. More on this in a bit.

“It’s like when priests feel like they have to say, “My sisters and brothers, ” instead of “brothers and sisters,” or even just “brothers.” Isn’t it demeaning to women to imply that we’re going to shriek and pass out by having our genders mentioned second?”

Uh… Simcha… why do you think priests started talking this way in the first place? Yeah, as a matter of fact, a number of women do start shrieking about things like this. Such women may be the minority, but that minority is loud and nasty enough to make these kinds of changes the norm. Most priests probably don’t see much sense insisting on the traditional arrangement of the words when confronted by angry women parishioners who obviously do take such matters seriously.

“Yes! Thank you! A few commenters in recent posts insist that if women are going to vote and drive, then that’s that: Men are tearing up the social contract, and anyone who expects them to take out the garbage from now on is just being plain old mean. (Attention, men: Whining is never attractive. Ever.)”

Simcha, this is an extremely demeaning thing to say. You may find this surprising, but men can and do have bigger concerns than whether you in particular find them attractive, or even whether women generally find them attractive. Do you not understand how insulting you are being here? Please stop and consider what I’m saying. I am not just trying to give you a hard time.

Now, moving on, I was not one of those commenters, but I have, on other websites and in my worst moments, insisted on the same thing: the rending of the social contract. Obviously, as the author you quoted pointed out, this is not a constructive approach, and I recognize the need to abandon it in favor of more productive options. But I hope you realize that the anger that makes that approach tempting… has a basis. It doesn’t come out of thin air. Where do you think it comes from?

The short version of the problem is this: Women have been insisting, absolutely insisting, for the last sixty years, that they are not going to be responsible to us men in any way whatsoever, that they are going to do whatever the hell they want, and that we men are on our own. That is all we younger guys have been hearing since the day we were born - we’re not familiar with any other world. And… believe it or not, the message has sunken in: women want to be completely and totally free of us without exception. So when someone like me, for example, hears women whining - there’s your favorite word - about the lack of real men, or purring about how much they just lurrrv chivalry, or bashing men for their failures, or otherwise demanding that men perform for them - I’m like, “Excuse me? And who the hell are you, by the way, sitting up on your pedestal, making demands, and accepting no responsibility of your own? Take a hike!” Go ahead and fault me for a deficient (anger, bitter, whatever) response if you like - I’m sure it’s not the best. But please hear what I’m saying. Women are certainly prepared to make their demands of men. Are those same women prepared to submit to the demands of men? Women want gentlemen. Are women ready to act like ladies again? I would sure love to meet a lady for a change; where can I find one? And is it good to ride roughshod over today’s men, telling them, on the one hand, that you want nothing to do with them, and on the other, continuing to insist that they be and act as *you* want? Please. Seriously, Simcha, this is narcissism at its finest! I do not think we men are going to put up with it much longer. I don’t put up with it already.

In this very vein the author you quoted wrote, “Yes, you open doors for a woman, but your woman probably does special things for you. If she doesn’t, then that’s the problem, not chivalry itself.” What is the problem he’s speaking of? Trust me, it’s a problem a lot of men face, if not in romantic relationships (where, at least in my experience, women are usually generous), then in the world at large, where women clearly expect to have their cake and eat it, too.

Not all men feel as I do, and I must admit that mystifies me. Perhaps they aren’t paying attention. Maybe they don’t have the courage to stand up for themselves and one another - much easier to throw your brothers under the bus and score brownie points with women than insist on justice and risk upsetting the womenfolk (there are your wimps right there, Simcha). But my attitude about this issue, and the attitude I notice a lot of men my age taking, is this: We’ve heard enough about you and your demands. Now you are going to hear about us and our demands. And if you won’t listen, well, that is your prerogative, but believe us, we are not going to let you use us like this any more. When you’re ready for a man, rather than a puppy, let us know. Is this whining? No, this is throwing down the gauntlet and ending the nonsense once and for all. Because it is nonsense and some of us are sick of it - I mean real nausea here.

I’ve been toying with the idea of reserving my gentlemanly behavior for proven ladies, rather than women generally.

Thought of another way to put it.

.

You mentioned that it is unattractive when men whine. Women today are remarkably unattractive in their behavior. If you women don’t care how attractive you are to us…

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... what business do you have complaining when men start to behave in ways that aren’t attractive to *you*?

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Have Cake / Eat Cake

@David Casson:  Actually, the article was mostly about women—both demanding feminists and hypocritical traditional women—and their bad behavior.

“A real man dances at a wedding”
Yes, I believe most theologians agree that this is the true measure of a man. (Question mark???)

“The Art of Manliness” is a fun site that doesn’t take itself too seriously, avoids the stereotypical macho stuff, and occasionally provides some good information. 
In that spirit:  To potty-train a boy, Daddy (role-model of manliness) needs to take him for a walk to pee on trees.  Mom can’t do this. One short hike with my son and he went straight to underpants without a problem.  Every father I’ve recommended this to has had success.  And if Mom doesn’t quite understand, she’s probably just jealous.

I enjoyed this so much!  I don’t know how often I have complained about this tendency to go to gender neutral language. To me gender neutral language, like your example of avoiding the word ‘mankind’, is misogynist in that avoiding the word implies that women are too stupid to recognize when a term that includes them.

Much better evaluation of the problem than I’ve read anywhere else.

David, I read your lengthy comment, and the clearest response I can make (if Simcha doesn’t mind my stepping in here) is this: if you treat a woman like a *person,* she will then have the luxury of appreciating your qualities as a gentleman, and may even surprise you by being a lady.

But if you treat a woman first and foremost as less than a person, as someone you have already decided must be a participant in an agenda you disapprove of, as someone who is diametrically opposed to all that would otherwise be good and fine and noble in your life, as someone who by virtue of her gender you have the right to prejudge, condemn, and dismiss—then you might never experience that harmony between men and women which, I assure you as someone who has been ecstatically married for sixteen years, is perfectly possibly and truly delightful.

We do not, all of us, want to have our cake and eat it too.  If you judge us, all of us, as being this way you should not be surprised when people—female people, yes, but people—you have decided to denigrate en masse continue to disappoint you.

Erin Manning,

That was clever. Clearly, you have played this game before, and you’ve gotten quite good at it. However, I also have played this game before and you will not fool me that easily. Deceitful Catholic women are among the most skillful manipulators one can find, but I’ve gone through this routine enough to sniff you out pretty easily. Let’s review.

I spent a ‘lengthy comment’ speaking from the male perspective. You completely ignored everything in my comment except for the last line, which is to say, you ignored the male perspective. You sympathized with nothing I said. You expressed no solidarity with me. You shared none of my anger. You had nothing at all to say about 99% of my comment, which means none of it struck a chord with you, which means you just don’t care. So often have I had this discussion that I am tempted to think women simply do not have the capacity to care about men, but I have met a handful who have, so I can’t say that. Probably, then, you just don’t understand and aren’t motivated to find out. Still, if you don’t care about my concerns, on what grounds do you say I should care about yours? What business do you have coaching me when you can’t be bothered to take an interest in my actual problems?

“But wait!” you reply. “I *was* speaking about *your* problems. I was trying to guide you and protect you from missing out on life!” Bollocks. You weren’t speaking for my benefit. You were speaking for yours. You were subtly attempting to undermine my remarks by presenting me to the other readers as an abuser and shifting the blame to me. If I would treat women well, I would not have a problem. See? I’m the problem, not women. The ‘loving guidance’ dimension was merely intended to disarm me. “Oh, you’re right, Erin, I’m really going down the wrong path! If I can just be a good man, everything will be fine.” In the process, I forget my complaints and move on. Women don’t have to face anything.

Clever. But I caught you. Do you have the courage to engage me on what I actually said? Do *you*, Erin Manning, have the guts to treat *me* like a human being, or are you going to keep falling back on these manipulative ruses? The illusion of the pious, loving Catholic woman doesn’t fool me; if you were a loving Catholic woman you would have responded to my complaints in a spirit of solidarity (which doesn’t necessarily mean total agreement). But you didn’t. If you don’t care to engage me, at least have the courtesy not to respond. Certainly you should not have the nerve to lecture me about respect when you evidently have not learned your own lesson. Your response was cowardly and hypocritical.

As it happens, Erin, I do treat women as persons. When I speak of not being gentlemanly, I mean not being chivalrous, which I see as a special favor men grant women rather than something women deserve. What women and men both deserve is courtesy, respect, and consideration. I treat women that way already. And how do women respond? Some are respectful, others aren’t. And my comment was not even about day-to-day interactions. You see, the problem is not me, though as I already pointed out, you quite cleverly tried to present it that way. The problem is with women. The problem, essentially, is that many women do not want to recognize men as human beings. In responding to me the way you did, you showed that you are of those women.

I will not respond to you again if you continue in the same vein of dishonesty. I am quite calm and respectful when I also am shown respect, but I have no pity for those who tried the move you did. Peace.

The Art of Manliness is a great, fun read but it contradicts Catholic teaching is some ways; ways that are worrying enough that I don’t want to pass it on to my teen sons.  E.g. they say that sex in a “committed relationship” is perfectly fine.  Otherwise, the rest of it is terrific.

Clearly if all men spoke as eloquently as David Casson does above, the ladies would be all up ons, to quote my favorite masculine role model, Strongbad.

JohnH, actually, I found David Casson’s comments totally repulsive and not at all eloquent.  I also found nothing against men in the original article above so DC’s comments come across as off topic a bit.  Seems to me that the person with the attitude problem against the opposite sex here is more DC and not SF.

I suppose I should make it clearer when I am being facetious.

I understood, John.  Strongbad is my hero,too.

Also, in Strongbad terms, Imma gonna guess David is probably still available. So all you single ladies…

Aww, did I upset you, poor widdle Ann Seeton? Hahaha. What a loss. Maybe your little puppy JohnH can lick your feet for a while and make you feel better.

Ann Seeton finds the thought of men having a voice ‘repulsive’.

David, you’re not making any sense.  Knock it off or I’ll block you.

Ya done a nice jorb there, Cassum.

Ah, no, actually, my comment did make sense, Simcha, and you know it. Evidently it made too much sense for some, who could not help but respond with vitriol and lame jokes borrowed from a moronic Internet character. (JohnH, it does not surprise me that Strongbad is your favorite masculine role model. It works on you. ‘Coach Z’, find original material and learn how to spell.) I guess that’s one way to handle an unpleasant topic when you have nothing intelligent to say. You guys would have expressed yourselves more succinctly by posting a link to a YouTube video of a baby crying. You tried, though. Better luck next time.

Simcha, it’s disappointing that you would abuse your power that way. If you do not want me to sling any mud, why not correct your other commenters as well? I am all for civil discussion. Apparently, not all your commenters feel that way.

I happen to love it when a man opens the door for me - and I have figured out how to encourage men to do this in a culture that no longer promotes chivalry:  When I arrive at a door I simply stand to the side of it and wait until he opens it for me.  It has become such a natural reaction that I will even stop and wait for another woman to open the door for me too (although this is something I try to avoid when I’m not on autopilot).  It is like a dance, and when I play my part naturally it is also quite effective.  :)

On another note, my husband is a hall director/professor at a college and would love to lead a “How To Be a Man” class (much like the Gentleman’s Club mentioned above).  He sees a great need for teaching the guys how to be real men because they aren’t receiving this info from their fathers or the culture at large.  The class would include sessions on how to drink like a man, dress like a man, open doors like a man, pay your bills like a man, speak like a man, play poker like a man, and so on and so on…  He knows this class would be well received because he would mix up fun activities with necessary life knowledge.  In the past one of his most popular dorm events has been Cigar Night, when he teaches the guys the proper way to cut & smoke a cigar.  But the point isn’t just learning how to smoke - it is creating a fellowship among the guys and giving them an example of real manliness that resonates with them.

I thought it was a great post Simcha! I personally witnessed men stuck in a place of confusion over the whole chivalry thing as I went to a very liberal college. Door opening nearly disappeared because guys were unsure whether or not they would be chewed out for the kind gesture. Not soon after I left the school even instituted a “gender neutral” dorm. Yuck.

@d. casson, I don’t know you but you really sound like someone who is really obsessed with himself. Look beyond yourself and see what you can do for others. Do you pray the Rosary? If you are young enough consider a career in the army or something.

We have a crowd of women talking about how important it is that men do things for them and I am the one accused of being obsessed with himself.

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Well, I am, cratchit. I am working on it. Thanks for the correction.

Imagine if I, like another commenter here, posted a list of all the things women should do for me, how they should it (because they obviously can’t figure it out themselves), why I like it, and why I deserve it. That would certainly be self-obsessed, don’t you think? When a woman does it, though, we can’t recognize it for what it is. THINK ABOUT IT.

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Some angry, ranting dude comes along, though, and BAM we are on him like white on rice. “What business do you have complaining, you stupid male! Now get down and serve!” Holy mackerel. When the feminists came along with their ranting, we all just shoved aside and yupped them to death and gave them whatever they wanted. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard anyone tell them, “You’re obsessed with yourself. Serve.” Yeah we’ve got a blind spot here and you guys might not like my ranting and I’ve got my defects but the fact remains I am pointing to something real.

?????

What is the reason for your hysterical rantings? Oh the irony! This was a lighthearted post.I don’t think anyone here hates men. You are like a man walking into a party trying to start fights while people look quizzically at you.

David, you say you are all for civil discussion? I’m sure you would have more luck if you did discuss things in a civil manner.

“Aww, did I upset you, poor widdle Ann Seeton? Hahaha. What a loss. Maybe your little puppy JohnH can lick your feet for a while and make you feel better” and “You guys would have expressed yourselves more succinctly by posting a link to a YouTube video of a baby crying” don’t fit that criteria, nor does your personal attach on Simcha, above.

@Claire, you are so right! Nicely put. Lone ranter bursts into the room, and everyone takes an intense interest in the wallpaper, or muttering into their drinks, while edging towards the door.

Fine… I’m sorry.

Nah, I can do better than that. I have been very hostile and aggressive. To those whom I have offended, I apologize. Simcha, I’m sorry for dragging your commentary off topic. I believe there is merit in what I am saying, but I have gone about it the wrong way and in the wrong forum. Please forgive my blunders and I will refrain from making the mistake again.

Most men won’t shout like David Casson, but he is fairly accurately expressing the hellish emotional cacophony lots of younger men live in these days. David Casson, you might want to get involved with a traditionalist Catholic community and go to the tridentine rite Mass. There’s nothing like lots of women in modest dresses and chapel veils, really trying to be submissive and manly priests who won’t try to neuter Ephesians 5, to allay some of your cynicism about women, make you feel more like a man, and generally tip you back toward an even keel. It won’t fix the world, but it’ll make you feel better. It’s worked for me, anyway.

Hi, Dan - Thank you. I really appreciate hearing your affirmative voice. I clearly have been nasty here, and I own that and reiterate my apology for it. And I also recognize that I was off topic, which didn’t help my cause. Yet there is so much else to say on this matter. For one thing, this is not really the best forum for me to speak; but where is that forum? Where do I go to speak my mind, and where will people listen? And why should I not expect my own brothers and sisters in Christ to listen, these people who are supposed to be united to me in the bond of charity? Now, there is a place on the web where people do listen, and it is full of young men like me; I am sure the people here would think differently of my original comment if only they knew the chorus of agreement that would be shouted from that quarter by men my age. Those men aren’t here to defend me right now, so I have been written off as a blathering idiot who is saying nothing at all. And when hardly anyone will take your legitimate complaints seriously, it is frustrating; and when they go further and mock you and shame you for your legitimate complaints, it is infuriating, and it becomes quite hard over time to calmly and civilly communicate your views. The fact is that we young guys are getting ignored… just because we are young guys. When we speak, we are told to shut up, stop causing problems, and do as we’re told. I am here trying to speak of real problems, and the only objection that is offered in response is that I am undermining the good fun of others, like a man who starts ranting in the middle of a party. When it comes to the problems of my demographic, however, the whole world is having a party, and I am always an inconvenience. That my brothers and I are so ignored is extremely painful. “You don’t have real problems,” we are told. “Go away.” Then continue the complaints about everything we young men are doing wrong. It is grating to hear women ask, “Where are the real men?” when these same women could not care less how the real men, who are all around them, are doing. The bottom line is that we do no matter, not even to our own Church. I am sure this paragraph of mine will be met with yet more jeers and humiliations, which only further underscores my point.

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I have never been attracted to the Tridentine Mass, but if there are men there who respect themselves, and women who respect their men, maybe I should give it a closer look.

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And in the meantime my only option is to continue to be a nuisance. I do resolve, however, to be a charitable nuisance, which I have not done here.

Thanks for the apology, David. 

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It’s true that your tone and your off-topic comments made it hard to hear what you are saying.
But the other problem is that you are, to a large extent, preaching to the choir.  Most Catholic women—those of us who are serious enough about our faith to be reading the Register!—are already fully aware that to bear children, care for a house and family, and try to make our husbands happy, is a privilege and a joy (more or less).  It is a beautiful but demanding way of life.  To hear it described as some kind of pampered, peaches-and-cream paradise on a pedestal is bizarre and frustrating.

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There ARE women out there who scream at men and tell them to serve and shut up.  But those women are not me, or my readers. There may very well be a need for some people to hear what you are trying to say, but it’s kind of like going to an Amish meetinghouse and angrily decrying the evils of industrialization.  I can’t help but think that you direct your ranting at us Catholic women because you know in your heart that you will be treated with at least some charity.  You often complain about the hostility you receive in reply here, but maybe you could try out one of your harangues on a genuinely man-hating feminist blog, for a dose of reality.

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Again, I appreciate the apology.  I know what it’s like to get carried away, and it’s not easy to recognize it and admit it.

And thank you, Simcha, for receiving and accepting my apology. You are quite gracious.

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God help me if ever I demean the sacrifices of a good Catholic woman, especially those who are wives and mothers (I say so because these are possibly the most maligned and scarce women in our culture). No, never in a million years would I wish to grieve my sisters this way; the world gives them enough grief, and I try to be sensitive to that and all the ways it is hard to be a woman today. Because it is hard, and many are the challenges women face. Any woman who wishes to follow Christ certainly has her Cross, and she has it in abundance, sometimes in ways men don’t understand. This is true no matter what her vocation. But I have known a number of good Catholic wives and mothers. They are a reassurance and blessing to me as a man. In a world where many women renounce any form of responsibility to men, these women sacrifice for their men and their children out of love. Oh, yes, they find the Cross in their vocations, and like Jesus, they carry it courageously and willingly for those whom they love. I’ve seen it with my own eyes many times. Believe me, every good Catholic woman, without exception, has my admiration and my gratitude.

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So I do not intend to depict motherhood or marriage as easy or pampered. My remarks about women and pedestals have to do with other things, and yes, I see those things on these very pages - and often. I won’t drag that battle out here; I’ve had enough tension for one go around. I do think, however, that if there are any women on this earth who have the heart to listen, it is indeed our own sisters in Christ. And in the end, maybe things aren’t quite as bad as I think they are. At least, your comment, Simcha, gives me that hope.

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I will give it some prayer and some thought and maybe another day I will find an opportunity to respectfully and thoughtfully provide an alternative perspective - this time without upsetting my sisters. We’re in this fight together… the last thing I want to do is detract from that.

David, why not start your own blog?  (I’m sorry, I forget if you said you already have one.)  If there is truly an audience for you out there, and you have something to say, and aren’t hearing it anywhere else, then that is exactly what blogs are for.  When you leave a comment which is longer than the original post, it’s hard for people to take you seriously, just because of the very length of your comment—that’s just how it is.  Why not take some time and write a series of original posts where you can say what you want to say, rather than reacting to someone else?  I think you’ll find that much more satisfying.

@David:  I didn’t mean the above comment to sound like I’m telling you to quit commenting—just trying to say that, if you are interested in having your ideas received well, then context is at least as important as content!

Hi, Simcha: Yes, that is a very good thought. I’ve been considering it (e.g., running a blog is time consuming - what are my priorities right now etc). My only concern is that blogs can become silos. There are already a lot of blogs that discuss the thing I want to discuss (though few do so with a Catholic lens, which is what I’d want to do), but they form one group (one blogosphere) that is very much a closed circuit: it does not interact much with any other area of the Internet. The result is stagnation. (In defense of this group I see this happening in a lot of places. It’s just what happens when people are left to tell each other how right they are!) I’m thinking about how to create opportunities for fruitful cross-pollenation. One way is to bring the discussion here, though as you said, the context must support it, and that doesn’t seem to happen often. Another way is to try to attract the attention of people like Kevin Knight of New Advent. Well, the Internet makes almost everything possible. I’m sure there is a way.
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Once again, Simcha, thank you for having been patient with my foolishness and also for your suggestions. Best wishes to you - I am sure our interactions will be more positive and constructive from here.

David, thank you for the all-purpose apology. I’m sorry my comment came off wrong, I didn’t mean to hurt you further. I was trying to say that your tone probably sent some people scurrying, rather than making them want to engage in discussion. I wasn’t trying to dismiss your concerns or characterise you as a ‘crazy man’. I am sorry.
I do hear what you are trying to say, but as Simcha said, preaching to the choir. I do see that for me, as well as women, there is a huge focus on the ‘life is a party’ lifestyle, and that feminism (which was meant to provide opportuinities to be taken IF desired) has swung too far into man-bashing. Women and men can be great together, complementary, respectful, I hope that you are able to find that. Also, I think that there are many men who probably feel the same. I hope this helps.

Ah… the gentleman.
A wonderful man that I dated recently came over for a homemade meal, courtesy, me.  And when the meal was done, he headed to the kitchen and started the dishes.  Not asking if I wanted him to…  (In fact, what I wanted was to retire to the sofa with wine and candles and leave the dishes ) he just declared,  “If you make the meal, I’ll do the dishes. It’s only fair.”
But what I appreciated most was that he did so cheerfully!  And without making a big deal about it.

Which caused me to reflect, my last boyfriend would do the dishes while telling me how wonderful he was for doing the dishes.  Funny how that sucks the pleasure right out of the situation!  (similar to, “here take my coat.  Shucks, now I’M freezing!”)

I thank God for using that moment to show me what genuine, selfless, loving acts look like.  They are not haughty or proud now are they?  It taught me a lesson about myself as well…. because with the ex-boyfriend, I found that I was prone to pointing out how good I was to him and for him… because he didn’t seem to see it by just my being wonderful So I wonder, did I become haughty in response to him being haughty?  Or was I so unappreciated that felt the need to tell him what to appreciate?

Any way, thanks to the cheerful, dishwashing guy - I know better how to recognize chivalry and kindness.

Oh, and by starting the dishes… we spent more time talking and bonding… learning how to work together to accomplish a task.  (when I a man is washing your dishes, don’t tell him how to do it right!)
I always said that I would cook more if I had someone to cook for… and someone to help with dishes!!

Oh, which reminds me of a recent date I went on… in which the man kept telling me what he would and would not do… because…. “I’m a gentleman”.  So he told me he didn’t want to use crass words because he was “a gentleman”  but he used them anyway.  Other examples…  but what really came to light to me was… the more he told me that he was a gentleman, the more I was convinced that he was no a gentleman at all.

Chivalry is not lip service.  Chivalry is action.

your attempts to convince me otherwise are transparent, sir.  If you were a gentleman, you would have OFFERED to pay for the sandwich I ordered because I was starving at mealtime but you weren’t eating.  I would not have let you pay—but a gentleman would have offered!

Of course, the next man God put in my path turned out to be a gentleman the likes of the men 60s tv shows!  So retro!  So hot!

I’m from Texas and chivalry isn’t dead in the South. I consider it a little cultural “nicety” and it works both ways. I will hold a door open for a man, also. “Yes ma’am”, “no sir”, etc., as responses no matter the age of the adult, are another respectful civility here.

A - No worries. I did a poor job expressing myself, and that’s my fault, not yours. Negative responses were to be expected. If I had expressed myself differently, I’m sure you would have responded differently. Your poking fun at me is a sign of good health! That said, thanks for recognizing I’m not totally crazy (only 25%, add 10% if visiting family). But I can get really carried away. Something I will work on. Peace and blessings to you.

To the person who said women aren’t special, or aren’t any more special than men: I agree that men are special too. But that doesn’t mean we have to treat each other in exactly the same way. Men and women are born different; my little son and daughter, raised together from birth with the exact same influences, are nonetheless very masculine and very feminine(respectively!) If a man opening a door for a woman is a mark of her specialness, that doesn’t mean she, for her part, cannot do things to acknowledge that a man is special. But they would be different things. In fact,if a man opens a door for a lady and she graciously accepts, she IS recognizing that he is special. She is acknowledging that he is a gentleman and she graciously accepts his gesture. To brush him off with irritation because we “can” do it ourselves is to say: this kindness you were going to extend to me is of no value to me.

I don’t think the question of opening doors for women has anything to do with a woman’s ability. Of course she can do it herself, unless she is elderly or infirm or disabled. It is a gesture of respect and graciousness. It symbolizes a man’s protectiveness and care, which perhaps she does not need in that moment, but again, it is symbolic. Do we really, as women, not want men to protect us? I do! When my husband opens a door for me, whether a car door or the door to a building, it is as if he was saying: “On my watch, you have someone looking out for you.” I appreciate that. It would be a sad world if we only accepted from others what we cannot manage to do alone.

One tip: don’t open a door for a woman and allow her to proceed ahead of you if she will be entering an unpleasant or potentially dangerous place! Go ahead of her into the damp cellar, the cobweb-filled garage, down the rickety basement steps…you get the idea.

Another tip: don’t let your wife or girlfriend be the last to receive your gentlemanly solicitude. I’ve seen husbands open doors or offer to carry packages for every woman but their own wives.

Simcha,

In Latin virtus the root of our word virtue literally translated to English means manliness. That is what the Art of Manliness is after, learning Manly Virtue. Nothing wrong with that. Virtue is taught, they are attempting to revive the traditions of manly virtue in our society. Personally I don’t think anyone here should be throwing stones at them. Certainly far better advice in there than in Men’s Fitness or Esquire, who teach there own versions of “manliness”.

I love the AOM! I read it almost everyday, along with NCR’s blogs.