Great post! A couple of recommendations: edit the unbolded sentence after the one about rape to say “You are chaste and beautiful, and will be whole.” The “Can” implies that they weren’t before, and that there’s an option that the qualities may not be achievable.

:also, while I agree with some of the nuts and bolts stuff being taught along gender lines, I think it’s crucially important that both parents be present for the non-biological stuff so that the child can not only appreciate the whole picture of a truly loving relationship, but also feel safe going to the preferred parent. As I’ve matured, my mother and sister have become less supportive of my desire to live chastely, but I know my dad has got my back.

: Finally, depending on what stage/personality your teen has, find creative ways to spread the message. Got an academically inclined junior? Love and Responsibility might be a good summer challenge. God’s Plan for You by David Hadjuk would be like the “beach reading” for older teens. :) Or, if they’re really into music, send them mp3s of songs with really good messages. Or, if you’re in the car, let them listen to the current hits station on one condition: you get to have a conversation that offers some critical analysis.

Thanks for the suggestion, book_nerd.  I made the suggested change.  I was thinking more of future behavior (thinking, victims are just as capable of chaste behavior as non-victims are—that chastity is about behavior, not a state of being), but I didn’t want to imply that victims have something to make up for; but at the same time, I didn’t want to imply that they can just get over it and go back to being perfectly fine. 

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I hope everyone will realize that my intentions in this entire post were to be encouraging, both to kids and to parents, and I most sincerely hope that no one will get too tripped up over a stray word or two.  This post got lost THREE times as I was writing it, so by the time I hit “publish,” I could hardly see straight.

Wow, so good of you to do this piece, Simcha…a lot of parents can benefit…and I’m totally in accord with the viewpoint of introduce age appropriate early, so it’s not so shocking when the rest comes out in the teen years.

I will post a comment here that I was going to post on yesterday’s thread.  Kids may not emulate their elders but they do closely track their slightly older peers.  They go to churches where there is literally no one between the ages of 18 and 30.  There is never a mention of single people from the pulpit or an encouraging word for single people seeking marriage and 1) they should marry within the Church and 2) why it’s worth the wait. 

Here’s the important point:  there is no pathway by which restless 17 year olds who want to leave the pews as soon as possible come back to be happily married 31-year olds with kids.  At a time in one’s life, the 20s and 30s, where there is nothing more important to many people than finding a mate, there is no roadmap for getting there within the Catholic Church anymore.  I think a lot of people get discouraged and think they will take their chances with the Evangelicals or just give up on Christian practice altogether. 

I agree with all the ideas Simcha has above about teaching children about love and sex.  It is a necessary toolkit for their survival.  But it also reflects the way adults think.  This is something adults wish someone had taught them or which they had better realized when they were younger.  Teens and young people just want to get to the adult state which includes “love” somehow.  They want love in a society that doesn’t teach that love and marriage go together.  Beautiful teachings about sex in the context of love don’t get you to that destination on their own, especially if you are an adolescent who lacks a mature sense of self-awareness and an orientation toward the future that one builds through one’s own moral choices.  For this reason, we need not just to teach the basics but also strengthen the institution of marriage with a visible pathway—including preaching and Church ministries—by which people do become married and stay married. 

Otherwise young people are out the door almost immediately at age 18, drift into sexual experimentation right away, if they haven’t already, and never come back.

Thank you!  Excellent post!  I’ll just mention this as a practical specific. In your discussion, don’t leave out:

Alcohol!  Even mild intoxication threatens chastity.

@John Thomas,

I agree with your point and I think this is critical.  In fact it starts earlier than 18 for many people - whenever they ‘pass’ confirmation that seems to be it for them.  This is a Church-wide issue and why so many teenagers who might have self-identified as Catholic at 14 or 15 get through their freshman year of college and are either an atheist/agnostic or an Evangelical.  Catholic Youth and Young Adult ministry is critical for the life and health of our church and we’re not doing nearly enough.

I don’t really have any strong recommendations but perhaps those who have successful ministries along these lines can weigh in with some of the key elements.

I found the book “A Return to Modesty” by Wendy Shalit a great read as a freshman in high school. She studies all the various ways in which people misconstrue modesty, and demonstrates how it is actually empowering. ~
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Speaking of modesty, my 3-year-old son just walked in and said, “Look, what happened to my pants?”

I added this to the list of things to fears: “if you gets a girl pregnant, she can choose to abort your child -or her parents might force her to, even she herself is opposed- and there’s NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!!! Are you ready to live with that?!? And if you’re fine with it, think about me, your mother: I don’t want to have to stand by helplessly while my own grandchild is aborted.”

We add one corollary to the definition of love as “wanting the good of the other.”  We’ve talked with our two oldest children about the dignity inherent in every person—we are all made in the image of God, and deserve to be treated as such.  If they are pressuring someone else to have sex, they are trampling on that person’s dignity.  If someone is pressuring them to have sex, that pressure should be a huge red flag about that person’s selfishness, making them poor dating/marriage material.

“Teens should learn enough about a woman’s cycle to make the clear connection that the reproductive system really is geared toward procreation (but not enough that they can actually use NFP to avoid pregnancies!).”

I would worry more about underdisclosure than overdisclosure. Young girls need enough information to know what their bodies are doing and that yes, they can detect their own fertility (and predict their periods). Perhaps not the full “Art of Natural Family Planning”, but something simpler that nevertheless gives them an indication of what is going on. While some girls might use this information as birth control, with artificial contraception so ubiquitous in the world, if these girls are going to be sexually active, they are going to find a way to avoid pregnancy.

This post is so useful I’m printing it to keep for reference with our five…thank you!  And spot on about the practical advice, having words to say and an action plan for when one is tempted.  I’d offer this advice for kids who live at college:  ALWAYS HAVE A ROOMMATE.  It’s far too easy to get the privacy to do things you shouldn’t in a single, even if you have the best of intentions.

printing this and saving it until the kids are older… love it!  Thank you!

This column is a pretty comprehensive plan for teaching young straight people about their sexuality. But I can’t help thinking that it would result in deep depression for a teen who felt only same sex attraction. It’s hard enough to persuade straight teens that they should wait until marriage for sex—that there are good physical and psychological reasons for postponing that experience until they are in a mature, stable relationship. However at least they can look forward to that most intimate experience of love. If a homosexual teenager accepts these teachings, he/she is being told “You can never, ever enjoy sexual experience without sin.  You can never be a parent, because gay people shouldn’t be allowed to adopt. You can never have more than friendship and God.” OK, you can say God should be enought but . . . That’s a pretty hard message for a teenager, driven by hormones and surrounded by peers who are trying out romantic relationships and thinking about having families.

Depression and suicide are more common among gay teens than among straight teens. That is what Dan Savage’s “It gets better” campaign is meant to mitigate. However much Catholics might hate the implications of that campaign, it addresses a real problem. I think it would be awfully difficult to get a gay teen to cheerfully accept the limitations on his/her future required by the Catholic Church.

Posted by Gabrielle LeBlanc on Friday, May 25, 2012 8:35 AM (EST):
“I added this to the list of things to fears: “if you gets a girl pregnant, she can choose to abort your child -or her parents might force her to, even she herself is opposed- and there’s NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!” 

Boy, howdy. I’ve pointed that out to my son more than once. Behind every women who gets an abortion, there’s a guy who is pressuring her to abort, or who had sex with a woman and didn’t know if she might be fertile and didn’t care what happened if she were, or who had sex with a woman whom he didn’t know well enough to know how she’d react to an unplanned pregnancy.

Men could essentially stop abortions from happening by refraining from those behaviors and by ostracizing men who indulge in them.

I would add: warn them about some of the typical ways in which sexually (or socially) more experienced peers may try to pressure or cajole them into going too far. This applies to many areas of life, not just sex; it’s all too easy to cave in and do things you don’t really want if someone knows the right buttons to push. Most young people aren’t naturally good at stepping back and realizing when they’re being manipulated, especially in emotionally charged situations.

@JohnThomas

I’m sorry you see no young adult role models for teens in your church. My husband and I are 22 and 24 respectively, we are both practicing Catholics and both practiced all through college. If your child losing his/her faith is a big concern of yours perhaps you could encourage your child to attend a Catholic college that obeys the Magisterium, or a secular college that has a strong Fellowship Of Catholic University Students (FOCUS) or Newman Center. Also, if there’s a Newman Center close by taking your children there for Mass occasionally would show them that there are young adults alive for their faith.

I wanted to share another marvelous resource:
http://www.purelyyou.org/
“PUREly YOU! Growing God’s Way is intended for pre-adolescent and adolescent children and their parents.
PUREly YOU! conforms to Catholic teaching in both content and approach, relying on the following sources: Catechism of the Catholic Church (Second Edition, 1994). Man and Woman He Created Them: A Theology of the Body, by Pope John Paul II. The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality: Guidelines for Sex Education Within the Family, by the Pontifical
Council for the Family (1995).
Catechetical Formation in Chaste Living: Guidelines for Curriculum Design and Publication, by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (2008).
PUREly YOU! bears the Imprimatur of The Most Reverend Archbishop John C. Nienstedt, Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis.”

My wife and some homeschooled friends will start this program with our daughters during this summer. After having read the material we are impressed by the sound (and Catholic) message

Thanks, Simcha! I’m so glad you’re addressing this whole issue for teens and their families.

@cowalker: thank you for your bravery in pointing out another aspect of sex ed and theology of the body. We already know how difficult it can be to get teens who identify as heterosexual to “cheerfully accept the limitations on his/her future required by the Catholic Church,” in terms of sex, marriage, and family planning, so it must be an even harder struggle for teens who identify as SSA to be among the small percentage that at this point in their lives can only envision a life without the “beautiful mystery” of sex, spouse, children and all the inherent pleasures.

Sometimes write-ups of SSA don’t address the profound pain this cross is, especially at such tender ages. Now that it’s been so aptly named, perhaps someone can give us pointers on how to compassionately minister to these teens and young adults.

For everyone arguing that school and youth groups shouldn’t address the topic, I feel like we (society) owes at least minimal instruction to kids whose parents are falling down on the job. 

Sometimes I think we look at things from the point of view where all kids are in good loving, functional families, forgetting that there are kids who don’t have that.  Schools and youth groups are really important in helping them become functional adults.

I’m also dismayed by the attitude that a few people have displayed towards public education as concept. While I respect the abilities of families to make other choices, free, universal, public education is one thing that has helped make the US prosperous. It’s an important part social mobility.  It’s insulting to say that kids would be better off wander the streets in than in public school.  If you live in a city with a significant truancy problem, you would know that is simply not true. Having public education available is an issue of justice even if you choose to make other choices.

Thank you! Perfect timing on this one.  I asked my 18 y.o. to sit down, read the post and all the comments.  She was very pensive, and I think watched at least one other piece on virginity as well.  Yes, she’s hanging on to it!  We talked about it for a little while. Last year, she (thinks) she fell in love with a guy, who ended up breaking her heart.  He was a nice guy,handsome and exciting but had a reputation as a “player”.  She felt honored that he chose her, because of his “top of the food chain” status. She really thought she could convert him, and as a nominal cradle Catholic, he started going to mass with her.  He told her she was “the one”.  He didn’t lie to her, he actually really did want to change from his former ways, but there were all kinds of danger signs on the road: a line of girls ready to “get with him”, a trail of broken bodies who called him constantly, a brother who does naked yoga on the deck every morning (!!LOL and met his girlfriend in AA), an abusive father that serially cheated on his mother…Need I say more?? BAD PROSPECT no matter how much redemption is out there. When a show on EWTN featuring Jason Evert and his wife came on discussing what to look for in a spouse I ran to get her.  “See?? I said, NO FIXERS!!!” (Great show, advocating that people should make a list of the qualities one wants in their spouse) She totally agreed, but it was tough for her.  It wasn’t that he wasn’t worthy of hope that he would totally convert, it’s just that it was too risky.  Sex can act like a drug, and who wants to marry a reformed DRUG ADDICT?  She broke up with him and he’s back to his old ways.  Her current boyfriend is sweet, sheltered, handsome,gawky at 6’2’‘, respectful, Christian, (goes to mass with her) and ADORES her.  You know what? AHHHHHHH!  She says she loves the other one. (Shoot me now) He “drunk dials” her from college in the middle of the night, proclaiming his undying love. He was far more worldly-wise, cultured, and took the lead on doing exciting things.  He wined, he dined. She was scintillated. Sure, those aren’t the qualities that make a faithful husband, but it kind of makes me tear my hair out because it seems like A lot of “good” American, Christian boys, have mothers hell bent on making them into nice, hot house flowers (that make their sons wear their pleated khaki pants up to their ribs), who don’t don’t trust enough to let their sons out into the big, bad world enough to gain a little more savoir faire. Boys (and girls) that aren’t culturally savvy (I’m trying not to say nerdy) won’t be winning the culture wars in the temporal sphere too well either. This is another failure on the part of American (protestant)puritanism that has far reaching negative effects, and YES, even into some of the bedrooms of the ones who made it to the altar as VIRGINS.(sigh) I hope my daughter doesn’t kill me when I ask her to sit down and read this post too.

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As I said in the earlier post, we should NOT teach “abstinence only.”  We should teach chastity. They are not the same thing. There is a difference, a big difference.
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I think most people would be surprised that the Catholic Church teaches that education of human sexuality and chastity should begin early — very early. Early as in infancy, if not before. Now, of course, you need age appropriate instruction, but the basis of all proper “sex education” is to recognize and teach the truth of the human person — that we are social creatures meant to exist in relationships and meant to love and be loved as persons, not as things to be used and exploited. These are things that can and should be taught as early as possible. Baby should see mommy and daddy interacting in a caring, loving, and self-giving way toward each other. Simple respect for one another in all things is a central component of successful education in chastity and human sexuality.
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The error is to treat sex ed as a stand-alone matter, where we must reinvent the moral wheel. The error is to treat sex ed as situational ethics, where everyday standards of moral behavior in every other context do not necessarily apply.  The other error is to teach abstinence, rather than chastity.  Abstinence is merely a negative, it is the absence of something, something which in its proper state is a moral good, and it is basically utilitarian.  On the other hand, chastity is a positive, it is the celebration of human sexuality in its proper understanding, that is, as an authentic manifestation of love, a complete gift of self, rather than a using of the other.
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Thus, instead of reinventing the moral wheel with negative utilitarian arguments, what is needed to be taught, before the word “sex” ever enters into the discussion, is LOVE and TRUTH.  And it should be taught to even little babies.
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It is only when there is a foundation of selflessness, giving, and love of others in truth at all times, it is only when such a foundation is built and applied to every aspect of life, that one can successfully apply it to the biological context of sexual activity. And even then, it must be taught in the context of the truth of the act itself, that it involves the entirety of our persons, body and soul, and that, using the organs it does, it is necessarily procreational, and for us to be true to ourselves, it must be true to that fertile/fruitful/procreational aspect, as well as being open to the truth of the unitive nature of the act, i.e. in the context of marriage. Anything else is a lie to who and what we are.
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When what is taught is the truth of human persons, that we are meant to exist in love and truth in all things, then education of chastity and human sexuality can be successful. If what is taught is sex is fun and recreational and you have a fundamental right to stick it wherever you want whenever you want, if what is taught is utilitarian relativism — all of which is contrary to the truth of who the human person is, male and female, or the utilitarian argument that sex outside of marriage brings disease, etc., then it will fail miserably.
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Printing for later use!  Thanks!

Simcha, I cannot tell you how timely these two posts, today and yesterday, have been for me.  It has been on my mind that I need to have these discussions with my daughter, and soon, but I couldn’t seem to find the right time.  When we needed to have the ‘changes to your body’ discussion, she was adamant about wanting to wait and find out about it in school (though I made sure she had material at home for her to consult, and she did come to me when she needed more information). Now this bigger sex issue needs to be discussed and I keep trying to find a way to discuss it without her feeling like it’s a heavy duty ‘Look, we need to Talk!’ kind of moment. 

Yesterday she came home from school with the permission slip to let us know they would be dealing with human reproduction in a week or so, so my hand has been forced.  I want to talk about this with her at home before she hears it from school!  I don’t think they’ll get into more adult discussions, as it is only 6th grade, but still!! 

She is a pretty level headed girl, and so far she has shown very good judgement with regard to friends, respect, etc. She still thinks seeing people kiss is gross, so I will enjoy that as long as I can. I’m not sure why this whole thing frightens me the way it does, why I am so hesitant, but I soooo appreciate your thoughtful (even if typed and lost repeatedly!) words about all this.

There are some serious problems with the way YOUCAT treats sexual issues. This article isn’t perfect but it indicates what some of the problems are: http://www.catholicintl.com/index.php/component/content/article/54-pastoral/570-the-vaticans-youcat-catechism-weak-on-homosexuality-contraception-euthanasia-evolution-and-scripture

@its a war: Excellent point. How many teenage girls want to be involved with a Ned Flanders?

I’m just curious, does it not even matter to you that in your last article you unfairly grouped all guys under about 20 as godless, irresponsible idiots who cannot possibly know the meaning of sacrifice?

I would add a warning that sometimes kids learn about sex around age 7 from their peers. I know I did. Since i was very, very impressionable, this has done me more harm than good. I went to a Catholic school, but my peers’ parents weren’t careful about what their children watched. The first things I learned were: sex is something that happens between boyfriends and girlfriends, it is only for pleasure, and it’s something you shouldn’t talk about with your parents or any adult. Strangely, though, I didn’t learn all the “mechanics” of it until about fourth grade. But the damage was done. That premature knowledge led to me pretending sex with siblings and friends (that is, clothed, but still erotic), something I now regret every single day. It also hurt my image of men as people who prey on girls for sex. It was a long time before I even liked my dad or was able to have healthy friendships with guys. I still have never dated. The sad thing is, because I was told by my peers not to tell anyone what we were discussing, my mom had no idea. There was one time she laid into me because she suspected I was the one who told my siblings about sex. She was right, but I was so afraid of her anger that I couldn’t bring myself to admit it.

ALL OF WHICH IS TO SAY: I wish there was a way to talk to very young children about sex without ruining their innocence. They may already know much more than they should, especially in this society where sex is everywhere, and it could damage them.

I should also add that I’ve never had sex and became incredibly prudish in middle school and high school. I still wonder if that was due to learning too much too soon.

Thanks for the nod Simcha.  I’m glad you liked the book!

FWIW, we were rather intentionally overly optimistic because we think it’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Expect the worst from kids, and that’s probably what you’ll get. Raise the bar!

I’m not sure how we’re going to deal with it when our kids are older, but right now our 5 and 3 year old boys know that mommy and daddy can make a baby “if they cuddle very close.”  This way it is linked to physical intimacy and tenderness without anything explicit in terms of anatomy.  It’s not a complete mystery to them (as it was to me; I thought God just decided when to give Mom a baby), but it is veiled in a healthy way that leaves room for development as they mature.

Unfortunately, my mother never talked about this at all with me, and so I figured everything out from my friends who gave me all the wrong ideas and attitudes. The only preventative measure she took was to let us know the utter shock and horror she would have toward each of us if we ever crossed the line.

But the problem is, that doesn’t extend to what she doesn’t know about. Or if we stop caring what she thinks, then it won’t be effective any more. I’m concerned about all my younger siblings, but since it’s not my place I don’t think there’s anything I can do.

@berniethomas

Consider your source.  Sugenis makes some good points at first (primarily regarding translation errors which are being corrected) but his treatment of homosexuality, evolution, etc. go way beyond what the Church teaches (i.e. beyond what is in the Catechism).

My guess is that anyone who is going to learn enough about NFP to actually use it to avoid pregnancy in a pre-marital situation, wouldn’t.  If you don’t care about following Church teaching on premarital sex, you probably would just go the easy route and use a condom.  Furthermore, girls are far more likely to make a mistake and go too far when they’re fertile.  It would be strange for an unmarried person to only have sex when their body doesn’t want to.  Finally, unless your body is completely clockwork (which is rarer in younger women), NFP is virtually impossible without the commitment of your partner.

In short, the young unmarried girl who would use NFP to avoid pregnancy would be an extremely rare case.  The one case that would seem more likely would be that of an engaged couple, but they need to know it in detail in any case.

@Jonathan:  I’ll paste in here the comment I just left on the other post:

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Okay, I guess I should respond to all the guys who were offended by the way I characterized teenage boys, even though I said in the post, “I’m going to answer as someone who remembers being a teenage girl (maybe men will have a different perspective, and can share it in the comment box).”  To my mind, when I proactively offered to be corrected, it’s kind of churlish to be angry at me for needing correction.

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I’m guessing that the most offensive part was this line:

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“And it’s girls who are more likely to be aware that they’re giving something away when they have sex, whereas teenage boys are probably truly incapable of seeing sex as self-sacrificial:  they’re just not made that way. )”

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First of all, let’s be clear that I was talking about teenage boys, and I really meant YOUNG teenage boys, those just dipping their toes into relationships with girls.  I didn’t say “all men are pigs” (as some have accused me of saying in emails); I didn’t say “all teenage boys are invincibly selfish” or “teenage boys are incapable of self-sacrifice.”  What I meant to say was that it’s much more obvious to girls than to boys that sex is self-sacrificial.  I realize that I said “they’re not made that way,” but what I meant was that they’re not made so that it’s obvious to them.  I’m sorry for not stating that more clearly, but I think I can stand by the way I said it without being too far off the mark.

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It’s not sexist to say that most boys are more at the mercy of their hormones than most girls in a sexual relationship, and think of it primarily as physical.  It’s not sexist to say that most girls are more likely to be at the mercy of their emotions than most boys, and think of it primarily as an emotional connection.  Girls are just as deluded as boys when they are learning to have relationships.  Saying, “But I’m a man and I have feelings!” doesn’t contradict anything I just said.  I’m very happy for you that you have a soul, but I never said that you didn’t.

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Maybe some guys have been so wounded by true offenses from truly sexist women that they now see insult where none exists.  Or maybe things really have changed so radically in the last 15-20 years that teenage boys are no longer creatures who tend to think with their bodies first and their minds and hearts second?

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I hope that clears up any lingering dismay I may have caused with my words

Also, to those who think that I mischaracterized teenage boys, I am genuinely curious to hear how you would describe the typical attitude of a teenage boy as compared to the typical attitude of a teenage girl.

@ (lost) innocence as well as Catherine.  What you are suffering from is scrupulosity.  Confession is always a good idea when your conscience is bothering you, but to let your sense of goodness or purity to continue to suffer, shows that there is something self destructive at work.  I was never so surprised as to see my young, very innocent, children sometimes acting out in ways in front of God, and a livingroom full of people, that made me have to shout accross a room and say, “Hey!  So and So!  Stop that!”  My husband and I look at each other with raised eyebrows,(and sometimes a stifled laugh!) It has taught me, that contrary to what some might say, children can “sexually” (mild), but innocently, act out in ways.  What you have to always remember is that GOD invented sex.  It is amazing, beautiful, and fantastic in design.  Kids somehow have some innate attraction to it,even when we know that they know nothing consciously about it!  Like everything else that is beautiful, Satan seeks to rob healthy sex from us. He will even use our own tender conscience as a weapon against us if we let him. He does everything in his power to twist, distort, and claim the sexual sphere as his own.
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Let’s face it, sexuality is a big part of life.  While modesty is important, we should never allow this to degrade to shame. Never!  That would be like telling God that His great gift and design is flawed. Parents can sometimes react in fear to the subject because they want the best for their children, when in fact, the message they are imparting because of this aggitation is a very, seriously, negative one. Body language can unfortunately tell the child that the subject is undeseriable and painful. This is NOT how Jesus acted, even in the face of truly, serious, sexual sin.
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Ask the Holy Spirit to help you rid yourself of these negative thoughts and memories, believe it or not they can even be a subtle form of pride.  Ask Him to help you see sexuality in the light HE wants you to see it in.  He wants you to see sexuality as the great gift it trully is and feel thankful for it.  Never worry about talking about these things in confession as well.  A good priest will really help you restore your peace.

@Brett Salkeld : I agree completely.

Superb post, as applicable to adults as to kids, & not surprising the demons sought to sink it; so a tip for the crucial virtue of perseverance as well.
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But while surely everyone is beyond measure fatigued with the once unutterable sin that now can’t shut up, cowalker’s observation seemed fair regarding how to apply what you wrote to kids or adults tempted or tormented by ssa.
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Lots of problems in this world, & one can’t address them all, in particular as this one has social implications far beyond the temptation or sin itself, not to say rabid & professional partisans. So you might not want to, or get trapped into the endless & long since boring discussion nearly always so divorced from reality, or even feel capable, of taking it on.
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But despite the fatigue & complications, since kids & the rest of us are regularly subjected to the bombardment, & some truly do suffer the temptation & even condition, should the good Lord in this regard grant you such insights as this post had, they would be worth pondering.
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Good luck with the minefield should you attempt it.

This is a pretty comprehensive list and I am going to bookmark it as I move into more and more explicit chastity ed with my kids. Thanks.

One thing I think all parents need to do when their kids are little and start questioning is give them truthful answers. If you start on a “stork” or “cabbage patch” type path (or use odd euphemisms for genitalia out of discomfort) you undermine your trustworthiness as a source for sexual information. Not that 4 years olds need extreme detail but keep it truthful. Some people go with the snuggle or special hug between mom and dad, others have daddy watering the baby seed inside mommy when they have a super inquisitive 4 year old and don’t want them yelling about penises on the playground. The point is that those explanations are truthful in their way even if they omit details.

I just think we all need to keep in mind that when your kid is awkward, hormonal and 11 you are not going to be able to form a trusting and communicative relationship on the spot, it needs to be there waiting for the tough talks.

Let’s go to the source. YOU CAT is good on contraception but sets up the question of contraception curiously: “Why are all methods of preventing the conception of a child not equally good?” Problems; 1) NFP does not “prevent” the conception of a child. It involves not engaging in an act where a child might occur. If I don’t play tennis, I am not “preventing” tennis from being played.  2) Contraception is intrinsically evil and to speak of it as not being “equally good” with NFP is misleading. It also speaks of the Church disapproving a “artificial” means. That is always regrettable because it is not the artificiality of contraceptives that make them wrong. 

The portion on masturbation is a bit confusing.  It does say it is an “offense against love.”  Will teenagers thus conclude it is wrong? It speaks of homosexual acts as “against the order of creation.”  Is that sufficient to indicate that such acts are always wrong? It cites 2358-59) the portion of the Catechism that condemns discrimination against homosexuals (and that is an important passage) but in now way conveys the judgement of 2357: “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.“142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

Young people are tremendously confused about homosexuality.  I think YOUCAT soft pedals the topic somewhat.

Interestingly YOUCAT does speak of use of pornography and rape as “serious sin.”  It seems to avoid the word “sin” in respect to other sinful behavior (though it describes very well why most sinful behavior is wrong).

This is how YOUCAT defines love: “The free self-giving of the heart” and then cites CCC 2346 which says nothing of the kind. How will most teenagers understand that definition?  Will they tie it to self-mastery, fidelity, living for the good of the other?

I just can’t have a lot of enthusiasm for YOUCAT in respect to some of the hot button sexual morality issues.

just a small footnote to the above comment.  A quiet still voice after communion: “Yes, but aren’t you a “fixer” too? (sigh)

@JD, do you live in S.Cal?  Cause if you are who I think you might be, you better apologize to Simcha for telling me about New Advent last summer on the beach (lol).  I had to google Ned Flanders, and that shames me, but yeah.

At age 14, my father sat me down and said, “I am only going to explain this to you once, so please listen to me now.” I thought, oh man, this must be important. He said this: “I’m going to tell you what happens to boys and girls as they grow up. You see, if a boy tells you he loves you and wants sex with you, YOU will be the one to pay. Do you want to go to college? Yes? Well, if you have sex now, then you will not be finishing high school. If you become pregnant in college, you will have to leave college.

What is going to happen is this: Your life and your plans will stop. Whatever you wanted is history. You will have the baby and your mother and I will not accept a baby to raise at our age. No. We spent 30 years raising children and we are done. This is your responsibility and yours alone. You will quit school, have your baby, and go to work. You will either give the baby up for adoption, or, if you are hell bent on keeping the baby, which is a big mistake, then you must get a job and find child care for the baby.

Here is a newspaper. Take a look at what an entry-level job for you would pay, with no diploma or college degree. Scary, isn’t it? Well, welcome to your new life with sex. You will work all the time at a job and then you will take care of your baby 24/7/365. Parties? Forget it. Friends? Once in awhile you see them. Want to go to school for a GED or College? Good luck. You won’t be able to afford it. And, without school, you will find it very difficult to get pay increases because you have few skills.

Want to know what happens to the boy who told you he loved you and who is the father of your baby? Nothing. He either said it isn’t his and abandoned you, or he will just walk away, scot-free, no responsibility. Think it won’t happen to you? Think again. It happens every day of the world. You can take him to court to pay for the baby, but you are not assured of winning. Even if you do win, guess what?

In order to support the child, the boy will have to go get an education. He will finish high school and go on to finish college. He will go out and party and have friends, live away from home, having fun. And where will you be? At a beginning, low paying job full-time. With the baby at all times, when your friends are going out and having fun. The boy, years later, will make a much higher salary, but you still will be struggling and exhausted from 24/7 responsibility and you will be drained financially to pay for the baby. It will be hard, very very hard. And the boy will be free to marry whomever he pleases, with little personal responsibility over his head.

But you? You are saddled with a baby. Fun, isn’t it? You narrow your field of boys who will want to marry you, right there. So, I tell you this: when a boy tells you he loves you, he is lying. When he says you both should enjoy sex, he is out for himself ONLY. If he is not ready to support a baby, then he has no business telling you that you are selfish for denying him sex or anything else.

It is unfair, very unfair. And you are the one who pays. SAY NO. ALWAYS be certain that you have a way home, independent of any guy you date. COME HOME at a reasonable hour, no matter what he wants. NEVER drink more than a few sips on a date. The oldest trick in the world is to give a girl just a bit too much to drink, and this will happen while you are having fun and distracted. You think it is fun and funny to drink too much, and you have sex with him. Your life and plans will end that night. DO NOT even go to places that are mysterious to you, ever, with any boy. WATCH the time of day. NOTE what you are doing and who you are with. REMAIN ALERT. I hope you listen to me, because this is really important. I am thinking of you and your future.”

My response? “Gulp. Thanks for the talk, Dad!” And you know what? I believed him & thought many times about what he had said. I never forgot that one conversation. And I later saw exactly what he had told me that day, playing out in the lives of countless teens girls and young adults whom I knew. I took his advice and had no such problems, ever. 15 years later I asked my dad: “Did you really mean it when you told me that if I were to become pregnant in my youth, that you and Mom would not have helped me?”

“No,” he responded. “But you thought I did mean it, didn’t you? Well, that was all you needed. I did my job properly and you stayed out of trouble. Congratulations!”

Wonderful way to discuss the birds and the bees.

@Simcha - I certainly wouldn’t say I was offended and I didn’t even disagree much with the part you highlighted.  The part I found dismissive of male sexuality is where you said the girl is thinking he loves me while the boy is thinking “Score!” (or something to that effect, I’m too lazy to go back and read the other piece right now).
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I actually have known several boys (now men) who thought they were with their lifemates in high school or college and a big part of that was because they were having sex.  Only they were unceremoniously dumped by their girlfriends.  These boys felt like kicked puppies, and obviously to them the sex was more than a mere score.

@Catherine - isn’t that awful though?  Do you really think your parents would not have helped you finish school if you’d had a baby?  Or do you think that was something they were just saying?  I could never say that to my children because it isn’t true.  I would help my children (and my grandchildren) if they needed me so long as I’m able.
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My daughter was watching that MTV show about the teenage mothers - it was the episode where the girl gave the baby up for adoption.  My daughter looked at me and said, “Can you believe that mother let her daughter give her baby away?”  I responded, “No dear, I really can’t.” 
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In any case, that’s not a speech I could ever give my kids, and I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t believe it anyway.

@Catherine - oops, I see I didn’t read closely enough.  Your dad didn’t mean it.  I still think it’s an awful thing to say though.  And I think it’s the sort of talk that could push a scared girl into an abortion instead of going to her parents when she needs them most.   

This is a great post, and I would only add that I think it’s a good idea to have the kids pray for their future husband or wife if they are called to marriage.  I think this gets them thinking that their future spouse is out there, right now, and that to stray early is to betray that person.  They are saving themselves for a specific person who is out there.  Thank you!

Bl. John Domenici on courtesy of children toward their parents:
Attend to the one thing above all others that helps to make them inwardly and outwardly happy. This is, that at least twice a day, in the evening when they go to sleep and in the morning when they go out, and there should be a third added, when after eating they turn to go out, or if they are girls or such as remain in the house, when they lie down or when they get up, let them kneel down with all reverence at the feet of yourself or their father or of both and ask a blessing, the which give humbly, and accept this respect humbly, not for your sake but for theirs. Let them say, on their knees, “Bless me,” and you may add that benediction which you believe most pleasing to God and useful for the children; that is, to say: “May God bless you with an eternal blessing,” or, “May the grace of God be always with you,” or again, “May God fill your body and soul with His benediction,” or again, “May God make you pleasing to Himself and to all men,” or, “May God make you such as He wishes you for His glory,” changing it according to circumstances. And having received such benediction let them bow the head, and rising kiss the hand of the one blessing, and let them go secure in the belief that nothing will harm them so far as the salvation of their souls is concerned. And as I say children should act toward you, so I say you should act toward the Supreme Father, God, in all things, and especially in kneeling down before Him and asking His blessing, not only three times a day, but always when you must begin something new, kissing across made with the finger on the ground, a chest, the wall or any place nearest the hand when you ask this blessing. (Bl. John Domenici, Regola del Governo, English translation: On the Education of Children, p. 54. Translated by Arthur Basil Cote, O.P., M.A., Doctoral Dissertation. Catholic University of America,1927)

Lost innocence
“Sex is the chalice of the sacrament of matrimony.”
This quote from Catherine Doherty was what I used to help my oldest make sense of the mixed message he was getting when he was in grade four or five at a Catholic school. Some of his classmates spoke of ‘sex’ as being ‘dirty’ and sinful. Since he was part of a large family it was obvious that his parents engaged in that ‘sinful’ activity often; how did that fit with our stated desire to avoid sin?
We had not yet discussed sexuality with him, but he felt comfortable enough to let me know what was disturbing him.
As an altar server he could understand that just as it would be far worse to abuse something holy than something less special. I compared taking without permission one of our plastic cups to play in the sand box with taking one of the glasses we got as a wedding gift and again with taking the chalice from the church. All are inappropriate but the different levels of severity didn’t need to be explained to him. I said that his classmates didn’t know anything about about the holy use of sex, they only knew about the misuse of it and that they were right that its misuse was sinful.

Great article, but I third, fourth, fifth and sixth the suggestion to delete youcat.

Simchar, you said, “We are made to love and to be loved. This is what we are for”.  That is a tragically distorted horizontal focus based on a man-centered theology.  Basic 101 Catholicism teaches that we were made to love God, to serve Him in this world first in order to love Him and be with Him in the next. 
All our actions in this life will determine our destination in the next life.  We might NOT Be Loved in this world for this message nor are we to pray to be loved for our fidelity to a Mighty God we serve.  Furthermore, we are called to pray for our enemies and to not expect love in return.
  Can you please explain where in the readings of the lives of the Saints that a Saint expected to be loved?  They did expect persecution and suffering.  Some even prayed for martyrdom, but I’m not aware of a Saint or Martyr who prayed to be loved. God alone deserves all the love, glory and praise.  We deserve nothing!

Joe, of course we are made to be loved, why else would Christ die for us? You seem to have some slightly Protestant ideas. Better go to a good priest or maybe retake the 101 class.

@its a war: No, I live in the southeast.

As for YouCat, at least one influential Catholic thinks it is a good source for young people to learn about the faith.
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http://www.youcat.org/read-the-book/pope-benedict-xvi-and-youcat.html

For real, Joe, why did God make us in the first place?  Because he likes reality television?  He made us because He loves us.  He died for us because he loves us.  He gives us each other to reflect His love for us.

I had to google Ned Flanders, too. The weird takeaway is that I am sort of sorry I never even once watched The Simpsons.

Seriously, please pray for the children whose parents are not themselves up to speed on the Catholic understanding of sexuality. This is most people. Let’s get the good news out about human dignity. (Watching the Simpsons may be a grey zone.)

JD, Do you really think the Holy Father read YOUCAT closely?  Clearly there were serious problems with the Italian text, acknowledged by Schonborn. The Holy Father didn’t “miss” those; he did not proof read the text; he trusted those to whom it was entrusted…
Either what I present is problematic or it is not.  I think I have drawn attention to real problems.  That is not to say the section on sexual morality is wrong, but it is deficient and misleading and that is sad when it could be so much better. There are wonderful portions even in the section on sexual morality, but parents who use it may want to make sure their teenagers don’t draw the kind of erroneous conclusions teenagers might be likely to draw.

From the Baltimore Catechism:
Why did God make us?
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.
Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
What must we do to gain the happiness of heaven?
To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world.
  We are created to bring the message of Christ Crucified on the Cross and to follow the example of Our Blessed Mother who suffered along side of her Son on Calvary.  NO greater love has existed or will ever exist than Christ cruel and agonizing death. 

He set an example for us to lay down our lives for the sake of others.  To love is to follow the Cross.  This kind of love that we must follow in order to have Everlasting life in heaven,  does not have an earthly return or recognition for it.  To expect it is to lose the reward.

Sorry folks; we are not on earth for a celebration and a love fest like many want to believe.  We are to pick up our crosses daily and follow Him Who died for us to repair the breech between God and man because of our sins.  Catholics are called to rejoice in their sufferings.

Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth; where the rust and moth consume and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven; where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. (Matthew 6:19-20)

The dad scare talk is flawed.

If you get pregnant young, you will get this fabulous prize package:
1.  TANF, a few hundred bucks cash per month.  Yes, there’s a 5 year rule, but move to another state and re-set the clock.  There’s 50 states.  You can get welfare for 250 years.  And there is a moving allowance to help you relocate.
2.  Section 8 housing (free apartment)
3.  Full medical coverage with no contributions, deductions, or co-pays (it even covers fertility treatments and boob jobs)
4.  EBT card (formerly known as food stamps)
5.  Instant automatic full Pell grant eligibility, even if your parents are rich (the “Spread Eagle Scholarship”)
6.  A range of supportive services from DCBS:  a cheap car, maintenance of the car, school book allowance, clothing allowance, emergency funds etc)
7.  If you also have a disability (including addiction, asthma, allergies), you can also get Voc Rehab help on top of that (more money for school on top of Title IV financial aid)
8.  Automatic low income discounts on phone service, LIHEAP energy assistance in the winter, WIA funds for college, etc.
9.  Free child care in college.
10:  The big lifelong cash prize bonanza is Social Security Disability and SSI.  This pays much more than TANF and it negates the 5 year limit.  In our area, attorney Eric Conn has made an assembly line factory model of SS Disability cases, the judge even has an office in his complex.  He’s training attorneys elsewhere how to replicate his model.  He documents well up front to meet SS requirements (which are strict), and his cases are scheduled for every 15 minutes with the judge that’s in his pocket.  He gets a flat rate of $3k per case from the government.  Don’t worry if you don’t really have a disability.  They will coach you in the ones that escape lab detection—back pain, or your “crazy check.”  Yes, they will coach you in the covered conditions in the DSM IV TR.

At a community college, you qualify for far more aid than the costs.  You get thousands of dollars of refunds each semester.

In the short run, this is an awesome prize package just for getting knocked up.  You just have to make sure to use your opportunities well and qualify for a high paying job at the end, because it takes a high-paying job to compete with welfare.  You need a starting salary in the $40ks to catapult you

So dad gives the scary talk, and then the teen girl learns otherwise from those who have learned to work the system.  (Maybe dad likes that his daughter gets college free!  No wedding to pay for, either!)

I see the prize package first-hand—I know whereof I speak.  There are people who make the prize package their goal in life.  I live in the land of transfer payments.  It’s all drawing down federal dollars to the states so the states like it.  So much easier than trying to attract business and industry with real jobs.

If daughter picks the prize package route (work is for suckers!)—she should get used to having a series of really low quality boyfriends that shack up with welfare moms (rather parasitically—free place to live, free food, free sex, no commitment), never getting married.  (Snowball’s chance in hell, anyway.)  Some states structure the prize package where you can’t be married to get the prize package.

If she wants this lifestyle, where it is common and accepted, she should move to a place in the country where there is a high percentage of the population claiming the prize package.  Then she will fit right in and she won’t be judged.  I live in such a place.

The Vatican is not leading with the Truth:  Read about YouCat and its Recall -........ there are significant errors in the youth catechism and apologies should be forthcoming.  To smear and tarnish the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church is to destroy Catholicism.  We have had years of sexualized catechetics in parochial schools.  We are witnessing uncountable infidelities to Christ’s Church because of it and now YouCat!  And good men do nothing!

@kentuckyliz:
I think you are replacing the scary dad talk with your own different view of unwed mothers.
We can acknowledge that some people choose this route deliberately, that there is support in society for it—particularly in some specific local cultures—and that even families will pass that attitude down.
BUT.
I don’t support looking down on those who, through various pathways, find themselves in of need the extra help that the government has established for some of its most vulnerable citizens.  In fact, I think people who take the slightest opportunity to talk about “the moochers” are usually harboring nasty thoughts about them.  I hope that you did not mean to come across as one of them.

@Joe—When Simcha writes “we are made for love” I don’t read that as “Our purpose in life is to be loved,” but rather, “It is part of our essential humanity to love G-d, and from that love one another, as that is the nature of the Creator: love.”  Or another way: Our soul “in the image and likeness” contains our purpose in its function: to love.

Simcha can correct me if I am misreading.

Oh, and kentucky, I do agree with telling your children (girls especially) that unwed motherhood can mean a lot of *very* hard choices about being alone, financially and emotionally, or putting your safety and that of your children (not to mention spiritual wellbeing) at risk.

“In fact, I think people who take the slightest opportunity to talk about “the moochers” are usually harboring nasty thoughts about them.”

No, this person probably wants children to avoid _becoming_ moochers.  We should definitely convey a narrative of shame for such people who do try to milk the system, that our kids would not emulate this pattern.

And to the prior commentor who would not countenance a mother her daughter making a decision to give her baby for adoption - that is a heroic thing to do and there are many infertile couples who would love to adopt these babies and give them loving homes.  There should be _no_ shame attached to adoption if the prospects of the birth mother are dire.

Corita,  Simcha really believes we are to be loved while living in this life so it appears.  However, we learn in our Cathechism to live for the salvation of our soul and other souls.  Created beings are to conduct their lives in ways that express their relationship with God and their love for God without reward. 
Expecting to be loved is not a Saint’s virtue and we are all called to be saints.  We are not to expect our actions even done in His Name to ever be seen or heard in this world. Our enemies might never learn to love us, yet we must love them.
Our Blessed Mother gives us the best view of the ‘vanities of human greatness’.  We have no value unless they are based upon the infinite merits of Jesus Christ for we are always unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10) our sufficiency comes from the Cross. 
Whatsoever we do, we must do in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ….do it from the heart and not for creatures knowing ….(Colossians 3:15).
St. Augustine said, “Let not my voice be alone in praising You, but may my works also praise you..let all my works sing…to use my strength in praising you…” In True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis de Monfort,  he teaches the beneficial effect of contempt of self. 
The horizontal focus of self expecting to be loved has a paralyzing effect, will not appease vicious appetites, and is certain to leave the soul thirstier and needier.

Well, Joe, perhaps Simcha speaks as someone who is very loved, and it shows.  As someone who is married to a man who does not *love* me in any typical married sense of the word I can empathize with the desire to focus on the importance of the love of Christ, and our First duty to love G-d. 
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But I daresay that she would claim we are to expect to be loved by anyone but Our Lord.  Indeed, it is hard to make the distinction between the various realities that not only are we created to love, and that we *deserve* love, but also that we live in a world affected by sin and some people do not experience love. 
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There are different uses of the word love, too, that makes it important to make these distinctions.
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So what are we talking about here? The point of a post on teaching our children about sex is that sex is an expression of love; not just a “feeling” but an act (as in actual) love. It might not be accompanied by romantic, fuzzy, love-feelings, and we can certainly teach that.  But it is an act of love for our spouse, which is its purpose, and ideally is in direct accordance with our love for the Creator.

Ok, Dot, I can see that desire but I can’t figure out why in a post to help Catholics teach their children about sex those same faithful, earnest Catholic families would also need to make a super-special extra lesson about “not being a moocher.”  IF you plan to live off the system and aim for that, as kentuckyliz wrote, then your parents are probably not reading this, they are struggling with bigger problems or aren’t interested. 
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The rest of it is incidental. Some people need help with their unplanned pregnancies and subsequent lives, and some don’t.  If you are the kind of parent who is going to teach their kids, “If you need help from the government then you are a horrible moocher and a pariah in our family, then I have no idea what to say to you.  (“You” being general, not specific to Dot or k-liz.)

(clsing quotes above after ‘family’)

For those keeping score at home: “Rome” is wrong. All the bishops are wrong. All Catholic schools are wrong. Fellow Catholics are wrong. BUT JOE is right because he owns a copy of the Baltimore Catechism. Got that?

How about this everyone: It’s Memorial Day weekend, and Sunday is Pentecost, the birthday of the whole Church. Let’s all get away from our computers and spend time with people we love, and people who love us. I’m sure Joe can hold down the fort here telling us all how we’re doing it wrong.

hahahahah!!  Thanks for the laughter I got from your post, “Joe, you’re nuts”.  Carry on; I’ll hold down the fort.  Have an enjoyable and blessed Memorial Day week end all the while remembering our veterans and soldiers now serving this great country of ours.  How truly blessed we are.  Let us all thank as many soldiers personally that we can while we still can.

These are great suggestions, but parents should be aware of the STD crisis that’s going on.  Comprehensive sex ed programs advocated by Planned Parenthood are in the schools telling students that the condom is 98% effective against ALL STD’s (which if far from true), parents all over are trying to get PP style curriculums out, schools blatantly lie to parents telling them they are teaching abstinence, etc. etc.  Boards of Education ignore Christian parents concerns.
Kids need to be armed w/ this info if they are going to public school sex ed, especially if it’s run by Planned Parenthood.
www.shenparentschoicecoalition.org is a website set up by parents trying to get a sexual risk avoidance abstinence program in their school and finding just getting the school to listen to them is a challenge…

It’s a war:  I’m afraid that a combox is a bad place to try to have this discussion, but I feel I must respond to your statements.

1. It is our job as parents to help our kids watch out for dangerous possibilities.  If the boyfriend drinks – worry about alcohol abuse.  If he has been a womanizer, worry about his ability to be faithful. 
2. If he’s from a troubled home, worry about the scars he carries.  It’s his girlfriend’s job to learn about them in detail, to find out how they affect him, and to comfort and help him if he needs comfort and help.
3. There is plenty of redemption for everyone, and addicts who have been through the crucible of withdrawal and long-term sobriety can be some of the best and most faithful of Catholics.  The trick with the (former) womanizer is to have a courtship that is long enough and intense enough to test his faithfulness and understand his attitude toward monogamy.
4. You were obviously bored by boys raised to be consistently moral and responsible.  You consider them to be momma’s boys, and perhaps your daughter picked up this prejudice from you.  The truth is you can’t serve two masters: a boy can’t serve God and the popular idol of cool.  Our efforts to compromise by covering our internal Catholicism with a veneer of cool, sexy dangerousness, ends up compromising our inner purity and our relationship with God.  You may or may not be what you eat.  You certainly become what you act like.
5. Ned Flanders is the only person on the Simpsons that I would have anything to do with.  He at least tries to be a good parent and provider (and he’s totally buff).

Simcha, I taught at an alternative high school and mostly boys were there.  I found them to be busy pretending to be tough and worldly to cover the many disappointments and wounds they had received in life.  Most often they tried to follow the cultural formula with little guidance from the adults around them.  My teaching partner was a Vietnam vet, and they swarmed to him like honeybees.  It’s too bad the Church doesn’t have more mentoring programs for these at risk boys.

@Dot - if you are a regular reader of Simcha’s commenters, you would know that I am a mother of both biological and adopted children.  I know there is no shame in admitting you can’t competently raise a child alone although there is a great deal of grief.  I also know that in literate families without addiction, abuse, physical or mental illness, grandparents can typically help their teenage daughters raise their grandchildren up to be fine Godly children.  Given my husband’s and my current state of good enough emotional, physical, and financial health,  we personally would ashamed to stand by while our daughter gave away our grandchild.    I suppose not everyone feels that way and that’s what helps whittle down that waiting list of couples waiting for healthy white infants -  Many if not most couples who are open to an infant of any race likely will wait a year or less, two on the outside.   
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I don’t have all the answers but I would rather my unexpected, unplanned, completely unprepared for grandchild feel like a prize rather than a punishment for the sin of fornication on the part of my teenager.    And that ugliness about welfare mothers by another poster just makes me want to cry.  It also makes me want to vote Democrat - something I haven’t done since Bob Casey ran for governor of Pennsylvania back in the 90’s.

Eileen, thanks for posting.  I thought I was the only one who saw the nuttery.

Catherine,
I think your father is a freaking genius. I also think fathers can have a HUGE impact by taking to their daughters about sex.

@Eileen - Hi! This is Catherine of the Dad conversation story.
I’ll try to respond to & explain a bit. :)  I grew up quite some
time ago, and at that time, schools did not allow pregnant
girls to continue their education. I went to Catholic school/high
school, and I would, in fact, have had to stop, were I to become
pregnant. At that time, very few girls became pregnant, and it
was not “normalized” that teenaged girls would “of course”
keep the babies. That was considered to be a bad solution
all the way around, in those days. This was way before Madonna
came along on MTV and sang “Daddy don’t preach” - a song about
a teen girl who may or has become pregnant, and does not want
old ideas about same to affect her life now.

In my situation, knew I could finish high school after age 18.
I would not need my parent’s help to finish school, because I
would be at least 4 years older, have a job, and be able to
arrange my own life. My father and I knew that. Everyone at
that time was aware of that.

Abortion did not exist at that time for middle class white people.
I would have had to go to San Francisco, to the Haight-Ashbury
district, to try to find someone in that drug infested area to tell
me where I could get an abortion. It was illegal at the time. I
would have been taking my life in my hands, and this was not
an option I would’ve considered. If I were scared and pregnant, I
would most certainly have told my parents at age 14. Abortion
could seriously injure me, or I could die from it, and that was
far scarier than telling me parents. I knew that they would not
have thrown me out of the house or punished me. They would
have told me they were very disappointed, that they were sorry
I had done this to myself. But they would not have been mean
to me, Eileen. They would have impressed upon me that the baby,
and not me (even though I am still a child) is #1 now, and we must
decide what to do.

In the 60’s, girls who became pregnant in middle-class circumstances
did not bring a baby home to raise with their mother’s help. It was not
considered a good thing to deprive a baby of a loving 2 parent
home with adults, not a teenager, to raise & support the baby. This was
seen as right by nearly everyone at the time, because 1) the girl
was not mature enough to raise a child; 2) the girl was considered
to be far better off to grieve and let the baby have a good start in a
2 parent home; and 3) the girl, although having made a mistake, would
be able to continue her education and her life as soon as the baby was
adopted, and she would not be thrust into poverty, instability, lack of a
good education, and the ills that result from teen pregnancy.

I think the conversation my day had with me was not understood
by me as a literal threat. Rather, the context was a loving home
with 2 parents who adored each other. Parents in those days
commanded a lot of respect and honor, and teenagers did not argue
with them or challenge or interrogate them. Teens knew they were
not the parent’s best friend, and that they were not their parent’s
equal.

I heard what dad said as being full of respect for me; and, because
I loved & respected my parents, I wanted to listen carefully to
what they had to say; and not become pregnant (respect myself, and
realize that my actions will impact them in a way that they do
not deserve from me, after all the love and help they had given,
raising me. I am not the center of the universe, is what I felt &
believed.) So, in my mind, I had a responsibility to honor them,
and doing so meant listening to them, and taking seriously what
their wishes were.

What I heard at the time (translated from age 14) was this:
1) Dad really really loves me & is trying to tell me what is best
for me. I love him for telling me what really happens to
girls who become pregnant. Now I know what to expect, and I
can behave accordingly. This was very empowering for me, Eileen.
2) Yes, Dad is instilling the fear of God into me. He sees that he
is responsible for raising me properly, that God has given him
this solemn responsibly. He is not being mean in “trying to scare
me”. He loves me and is letting me know that sexuality is not
a level playing field. These are very grave matters, especially at
a young age, if I bring a new human being into the world. I
came away understanding that this was very serious for all
concerned. He didn’t harp on it; he told me only once.

Back in those days, I asked my mother about the pill. She said she
would never approve of my taking the pill, or take me to a doctor
to get the pill. To do so, she said, would be sending a message that
“It’s not so bad if you want to have sex, dear.” I asked her, well,
what about if I make a mistake - isn’t it better to protect myself??
She said, you need to learn to control yourself, sweetheart, That is
what adult life is all about. An adult who cannot control him or
herself will have serious problems, indeed. Just wait. You will enjoy
sex in the proper context (marriage) at the right age. You will be
grown up and will know the joy of raising a baby. Until then, your
job is to build your life up, so that you have a skill, & you can support
yourself nicely, in case your husband dies or there are other problems.

I guess in the end, Eileen, I would like to ask you: are there any
things in my ‘Dad’ post that you think would be valuable to tell your
daughter, about how to best behave? Like about not drinking,
being careful where you go, and when, with a boy? I understand
the world has changed hugely; but I do think that learning to
respect oneself and leave one’s life open to fulfill dreams, rather
than giving it all away early and bringing home a baby, still has a good
place in teaching our children about God’s wishes for us, and
about sex today. Do you think so?

@momofthree,
Hi! This is Catherine of the ‘Dad’ conversation. :) Thank you so much for what you are saying about my father and that conversation. I agree with you, that he was very very smart. You know what? Once I got to the University, the other girls in the dorm and also in apartments that we had, asked me why I
behaved as I did; they’d never heard of it before. I told them the things I posted here, and, every single one of them said the same thing: “You are so lucky. Wow. What a Dad you have! I wish my Dad had told me those things!” And I responded that sexuality had been so very easy for me, because someone had taken the care & the love to give me a ‘manual’ of how to conduct myself, what the pitfalls were, what the true reason & meaning of sexuality was, and how to live my life to honor God, myself, and the boys concerned. The other girls envied me, and this is why I tried to post the conversation here. I am certain that, although many of Simcha’s ideas are 100% wonderful, that when it came down to the hot moment, I’d not have thought of Church law, or the sin of fornication, or the meaning of love. Had my dad not ever given me the chance to hear that conversation, I’d have had sex. So I don’t know, maybe something in the conversation may help someone here, to empower their daughter like my dad did with me. I would be so happy if that were to be the case. ;-)

I agree with you about the HUGE impact that fathers can have on their daughters when talking about sex. The love that is felt by the daughter is priceless. Dad really loves me! He wants to protect me! He is honest with me! Life is not fair, and thank God he is telling me! So much respect and profound appreciation comes to a girl’s mind and heart when her dad ‘scares’ her in the name of God and her own best interests. It really is not a ‘bad’ thing, I am convinced. Grave matters require grave conversations full of love and concern, in order to empower a daughter to avoid a grave mistake.

Thanks so much. ;-)  If my father were still alive today, I would call him right now and thank him again, and tell him, “Thank God for you.” Really.

Catherine,
I think your father is a freaking genius. I also think fathers can have a HUGE impact by taking to their daughters about sex.

Simcha—As a man, I didn’t have any problems with the way you characterized male sexuality—but let’s be clear—it is God Himself Who made men as sexual as they are. No man (or woman) asked to be sexual—God made us that way. However, I am convinced that, as important as sex is to a man, a committed relationship is even more important.

@Catherine - I will agree that warning our children about alcohol is a good thing, but I would never put that kind of extreme prohibition on it.    Odds are pretty good they’ll be able to tolerate and enjoy more than just a few sips without compromising their sexual principles.    Some of my most fun memories in college are after my roommates and I had had a few beers.  Yet, I never once “hooked up.”    Heck, I met my husband in a bar.    Our oldest child does Irish Dance, an art form/sport primarily performed and practiced in bars and other places where the Guinness flows freely.    She’s seen more drunks in her lifetime than I saw in four years at Boston College - wow!  She’s had more conversations with my husband and me about alcohol and how it can make you do stupid things than I ever had with my parents (none).
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As far as the rest of the speech, maybe it just belonged in a different time.  From my perspective, “the good old days” don’t seem so good. 
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Sin is black and white.  But raising children isn’t.    That speech would’ve scared me off men - who knows if I’d have ever married?  Or maybe I would’ve married the first boy I ever kissed?    I certain if I had, I would know a lot about that “marriage is a struggle/hard work” line I see all the time here.      I could see where that talk would cause other girls to have secretive abortions. 
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I want my kids to have a healthy sexuality.  I fear the consequences of an unhealthy sexuality far more than I fear the consequences of my children not waiting until they’re married.    I have a sense that makes me a pariah in these comments, but I have to say this thread has been most helpful to me in understanding that I held that outlook.  So, thank you everyone.

Despite my previous post, I do think alcohol should be included in teenage sex talks,although alcohol talks should be included in lots of teenage talks.    Some things my husband and I stress is that teenage hormones (male and female) are not to be trusted.    And boys feel the physical urge for sex in a near constant way.    That first love is so powerful and teenage years are not a time where pregnancy is desirable, no matter how strong the bond.  And there’s only one sure fire way to make sure someone doesn’t end up pregnant.    Our kids aren’t dating yet, but I see some of our oldest’s friends beginning to.  The teen years are tough.  We do our best to keep them from all the near occasions of sin that are out there while they are living in our home.  And we hope and pray that it is enough to set them on their way to healthy, happy, grace filled lives.

Be sober, Make sure you are committed to the relationship, and use a condom until both of you are check by a physician.

@kentuckyliz,
Hi! I am the author of “the dad scare talk”.
I agree with you that such a talk has flaws. To use a certain degree of fear to impress upon a young person just how grave & important it is, to act in a way that protects all concerned, is not the approach for every teen. Some would be intimidated to the point of not being able to trust. I dare say that there is no “one size fits all” when it comes to parental discussion of such a tender & complex topic.
However, you are describing an atmosphere & way of thinking that is extremely cynical. I know that all of the government benefits you listed can be, and have been, abused by some. It seems that commenters here want to influence their children BEFORE they become jaded. Kids are not born with a “take all you can get” mentality.
Quite honestly, you sound hurt, & if this is the case, I am really sorry. No one deserves to feel hopeless, such that the only, or permanent “answer” is to take advantage of the government (all citizens) to the point of idleness. How tragic for a child to think this way, or for a parent to teach it.
I send you all best wishes, sincerely.

Kentuckyliz:

I work in social services in NYC and the ideas you present about public assistance benefits are not correct.  First, the federal limits on TANF (public assistance) are five years and aren’t extended if you move to another state.  Some states extend state benefits beyond the five year Fed limit, but they are not the majority.  In addition, most locations now have a “help and hassle” approach to benefits where you need to be actively working with a vendor to find work as well as performing public service for 15-20 hours a week.  In NYC, you are actively working 35 hours a week for public assistance and Food Stamps.

The free rider culture in social services ended in the 1980s.  It is not a free and easy life to get public benefits, neither are those benefits so rich as to make any rational person want them.

If you have not experienced and/or studied “Theology of the Body”, don’t expose your children to it.  Randy Engel is a credible researcher.  Take a look at her analysis of it:
http://www.newengelpublishing.com/products/Theology-of-the-Body.html

Contact her!

@JB, Bottom line: That’s why my daughter broke up with him.  Did he have many redeeming qualities?  Yes.  Maybe he’ll come around some day after suffering for something good, and will have a track record to prove his worthiness.  As for “Ted Flanders”  I know nothing about him.  I guess the google image was a negative stereotype. (heh)
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I’m laughing about the “bored” comment.  My husband is anything but boring.  May I add that he is a wonderful Catholic husband and father, (daily communicant), and just because this is so anonymous,keeps my blood boiling in the oh-so-good-way?  If you think my daughter is tainted by my preference for men, hmmmm you might have a point.

@Eileen, I am also grateful for your sound words…except for the Democrat part (just say no to dead babies!)...I get your frustration though.  Mitt Romney is the the guy who fired anybody’s Dad who could earn him a buck. Ugh.

@JB, Jesus was not a nerdy, shrinking violet, with a bad hair cut, and bad taste, that made people say, “gosh, that message is amazing, but do I have to become a card carrying dork to apply?”  Did people say, “Oh, well his Mom rejects popular culture, because it’s so sinful, that’s why she dresses like that and has a son like that too.”  No.  She was normal.  She didn’t shun her neighbors because her family was “special”. She asked Jesus to turn water into WINE, not kool-aide.  She passed unnoticed, because she blended in with her neighbors.  Let’s face it, she had such good taste that they cast lots for his garments, the garment that she labored to create, that her son might be clothed simply and exquisitely.

@it’s a war - no worries.  Democrat Bob Casey was the author of the Pennsylvania Abortion Control act which put the first chink in the armor of Roe.    There’s no way I’d vote for Obama who, coincidentally enough, said he would not “punish” his daughters by making them raise a child.
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One area of sex that’s been getting attention in our house is pornography.  It’s not like it used to be - every kid can access it from his home, even a locked bedroom or bathroom.    We have been going out of our way to discuss how pornography is damaging and demeaning.  We tell our kids to remember the people in those awful scenes are someone’s daughters and sons.    We tell them someone with so much disrespect for their own body is likely a) desperate b) on drugs c) abused as a child (pick up to three correct answers).   
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We also have been telling our kids to make sure they never, ever let someone take a picture of them in a state of undress.    Fortunately, the schools these days do a pretty good job warning kids with testimonies of real life horror stories by folks who’ve been through the ringer thanks to having their stupidity captured on a cell phone.  Our kids seem pretty tuned in, but still, we worry.  It’s a danger we didn’t have to worry about much as kids.

Simcha, thanks again for a succinct and lucid discussion on this topic.  My children are 6 and under, but I’m already trying to plant the seeds.  I grew up in a wonderful Catholic family that nevertheless had a hard time discussing sexuality.  Therefore I went from prudish during high school to rebellious in college back to prudish in my early marriage.  I have just in the last couple of years begun to understand why Catholicism is so “right on” when it comes to human sexuality. Hoping to save my children some pain by trying to build their understanding of human dignity at an early age.  I’m so thankful to you and other parents for paving the way for those of us with little ones.

I have been given the burden to fear for those children who are not taught Christ Crucified, who are not taught what Christ has done for us.  The ‘significance of humanity’  is only because He first loved us, only because He died, rose from the dead and Ascended into heaven and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.  Also, Our Blessed Mother at Fatima asked us to pray five decades of the Rosary each day.  As we meditate upon these Sacred Mysteries of the Rosary, our eyes, hearts, minds and wills, will be transformed into the likeness and image of Her Son.  To Jesus through Mary.

@Eileen, Yes, pornography.  They can even see it at the drop of a hat on their smart phones.  If they don’t, maybe their classmates will, and whip out the images to shock them.  This happened once at my daughter’s school.  I do the same by talking to all of my kids about it like you do, but I have to admit that I’m stymied.  It’s like the devil has an extremely powerful weapon in it, and we haven’t even fathomed the consequences.  I don’t want to tell my kids that they are going to hell if they see it.  Curiosity is going to strike, I’m sure.  But what to tell them? Is it serious sin, or the “occasion of serious sin…?” 
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And in the meantime, prayer! the mass!  Rosary.

@it’s a war - the cellphones!  Ugh.  We have been reluctant to get our son a smart phone for this very reason.  However, most of his friends have them as does his older sister.  And there’s nothing stopping any of those kids from sending him a text witha pornographic attachment on his regular old cellphone.
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Philosophically, we do not use the word “sinful” much in our home.  We do occasionally use phrases like, “The Lord is weeping.”  To teenage minds (or at least our teens’ minds) the Church is just another self interested institution, like big pharma or the government - especially here in Philadelphia where horrific decisions and blind obedience has put the Church on trial, literally. 
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“Sin” is a loaded word and the last thing we want to do is conjure up images of priests and bishops who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) keep children safe from sexual predators.  We put our focus on *why* pornography is bad (and therefore sinful, although that’s left unstated).  We have confidence that one day our kids will realize just as my husband and I did that the Institution, with all its flawed people, is the perfect conveyer of the one true Faith.    And for that, we trust in the Holy Spirit.    .
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We’re still learning though.  As we’ve only got two kids in teenage years now, they’re more or less our guinea pigs.  By the time our younger ones reach puberty, our approach may be very different.

My husband and I have been using NFP throughout our marriage and learned it together in college after we got engaged.  I am so grateful to have a real understanding of how God created our bodies and how incredible it is to be able to conceive a child. I am pursing a nursing degree right now and would be really interested in teaching NFP to college aged women, whether or not they are planning to get married in the near future.  I think that the benefits of learning how your fertility works, not to mention being able to detect any gynecological issues (whether or not you’re sexually active) far outweighs any risk that a woman would use NFP to avoid pregnancy outside of marriage.

Eileen, begin ASAP to do the Stations of the Cross with your family.  Even little children get it!  It is totally amazing how little hearts are in awe of what Christ has done and how they like to sing, “Jesus Christ Crucified, have mercy on us.”  Have Crucifixes in your home.  Tell them Christ died for us to repair the breach between God and man.  Christ was born to die.  It is our sins that put Him on the Cross.  Teach your children to pray the Rosary daily.  Have visible pictures for them to see the Sacred Mysterious as you pray together with them.  Give your children a blessing daily.  I posted something earlier on this.  They need to know the Ten Commandments or they will not know what they must do and what they must avoid.  It will give them safety, boundary lines, self control and more happiness than those who are just making “good decisions”.  They need to know what are the virtues in order to combat the vices.  It is good to point out sin and how it harms the soul and all society. 
I understand what you mean of the disgusting ways active homosexual bishops and priests were so poorly handled.  These men had the intention to destroy Catholicism.  Have you ever heard Bella Dodd’s testimony?  Have you read the McHugh Chronicles by Randy Engel?  It explains the anarchy within the eccelesiastical structure.  These claimed Catholic prelates either renounced their priesthood or they were never legitimately ordained.  Either way they excommunicated themselves and no need of a formal announcement to recognize they were directed by satan.  I am a Catholic, make no mistake about this.

Good literature!  I can credit my own pre-marital abstinence to Kristin Lavransdatter and a number of other good books.  Who would want to mess up their future marriage like Kristin did?  If only she’d been chaste, she could have had a better marriage ... or even a totally different marriage, with a better guy.  The message was so clear in that book, without being preachy.
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Books form the imagination so much.  Before I started reading the good books, I was reading trashy science fiction, and my main takeaway was, “Too bad I’m Catholic and can’t just tumble into bed at the perfect, romantic moment.”
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That having been said, though, avoid the preachy chastity romances like “Arms of Love.”  That book was horrible.  Wouldn’t convince anyone, plus it was a drag to read.

I’m bookmarking this entry for when I have children! God bless you!

Simcha and et al,  I can’t stress enough that before the parents speak to their children about the need to subdue the most powerful energy of the body, the generative energies, a prayer life must be established in the home.  Don’t wait until its perfectly all into place, but show your children the heartfelt need for prayer, display Crucifixes;  display beautiful pictures of Our Blessed Mother, Saints and Angels and give each child a blessing with the sign of the cross on their foreheads before they begin each day.  God will richly reward your efforts by acknowledging your dependency on Him first in this vital educational pursuit to help your children become mighty warriors for the Cross of Jesus Christ.  May God receive all the glory.

I remember when my son was about five and he asked me what gay meant.
I thought oh boy what now. I first tried to tell him that it meant happy or carefree. That didn’t work too well. I finally had to realize that my mothers’ approach was best when it came to sex questions. She’d tell me just enough to satisfy my curiosity and leave it at that.No beating around the bush making up stories about the stork or finding me under a lilypad. Just give the kids a straight answer and leave it be.They don’t need a lot of details right off the bat. Simple answers to simple questions.

Interesting commentary on the problems caused by pornography and masturbation from a thoroughly secular and even liberal source:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6RqF22QEo

Keep a close eye on what your youth are watching on the internet; be warned of sex pedators contacting youth with digital devices, and keep your children out of parochial Catholic schools that mandate sexualized catechetics in the classroom.
see motherswatch.net for valuable information. 

The devil has many avenues opened to destroying our youths’ souls. When will the crusade begin to get smut materials out of parochial Catholic schools?  There is no excuse for ignorance in regards to protections of our most valuable resource - our youth! 

Just read “Not ready for Marriage, Not ready for Sex” by Chris and Linda Padgett. It was great! They’re a couple that had premarital sex before marriage, and committed themselves to chastity for two years before they tied the knot. I’ve also seen Chris speak, and he’s awesome. Hilarious, personable, and current. The book is definitely worth it, check it out!

Hey guys, what’s up with all the talk about god? We’re talking sex here, why bring imaginary beings into the equation?!?!

Our Lady of Fatima’s messages have been greatly neglected.  Our children suffer because we are not mindful of them:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/OLGS/A001olgs fat.htm