Ooh, I’ve got one:

Grouse that NFP abstinence is unnatural or unreasonable It is so unreasonable to expect married people to abstain from sexual activity periodically. That is why a husband should have the green light to pursue other women if his wife is on no-sex bedrest for several weeks or even months, or a wife should be allowed to cruise for new young men if her husband has been weakened by his life-saving chemotherapy.
CAUTION: Cultivating a marriage in which your loving does not always lead to sex when it isn’t prudent or possible may lead you and your partner to a life of adoring fidelity.

10. If you have problems with charting or unusual cycles, do not under any circumstances seek professional advice. Do not seek help from a trained teacher. Do not seek to learn more about the subject (especially from evil secular sources). And do not under any circumstances take your problems to a doctor. NFP is supposed to be natural and if nature never gives you a safe period, that’s just the way it is. NFP is an “Art”, not a scientifically based analysis of the menstrual cycle.
.
Oh, and do not, under any circumstances look for a different method if one isn’t working for you. Once you’ve made your decision, you have to live with it forever, just like your marriage. (The best way to choose a teacher and method is Google maps or your church bulletin. God intended for you to use the method with the most convenient teacher, and who is to question God?) And do not “mix and match”. Combining baby stamps with a BBT chart is considered heresy by all major NFP organizations. And I’m pretty sure using a fertility monitor is Modernism—(Marquette is a Jesuit school and we all know about how they can be.)
.
CAUTION: Charting gives the couple lots of information about the woman’s fertility and health. All methods have the same goal of determining fertility and infertility, so if one is confusing, another might clarify. Also, seeking medical help for irregular cycles may lead to a diagnosis and treatment. DO NOT DO THIS.

I love this in contrast to the article you linked to on FB yesterday- so opposite the picture painted of the couple who “who understand that their spousal love, and the fresh flower of new life into which that love usually blossoms, is the deepest and most important natural love they will experience, one that involves a singular sacrifice, a total self-giving, a fusion of hearts”... seriously loved that article, and love this one too. Thanks!!

Re: #6

Pants.  It figures.

I’m saving this one! Spot on!

I dunno about #8…laughing around my naked wife has never scored me many points… :)

The most depressing thing about this article is the ‘comparing yourself to all the other families at church because they’re at their best…’  Since we’re the family with the daughter who forgot to brush her hair (again), the other daughter who is whining because the pew’s not big enough and someone (a sibling) might TOUCH her, the four year old who is moaning all through Mass about how he doesn’t WANT to love God, he wants to love his toys! At home! With no people!(hello, original sin!) and the toddler who is happy and quiet as long as he can build doghouses out of hymnals—-well, at least the baby is rosy and cute and adorable—- anyway, if that’s our ‘Best’ that people are measuring themselves against, it just confirms my suspicion that God made some of us mothers so that everyone else could feel better about themselves! :)

Also—I heard about those monitors from Marquette (a friend was researching them.) I’m so thankful that if we ever DO need to use NFP, there will be a more ADD-proof way to do it! :)
Does anyone have a link to them? We should probably post it here, for the people who would like one!

(Also - Creighton is a Jesuit school too—- what is it with Jesuits and NFP? )

“Even when you’re naked.”

Up to this point, my laughter was internal…

Deirdre Mundy:  I used the clearblue monitor with the marquette method and it has changed my life!  Charting has always been very difficult for us and this has helped a ton!

NFP works well when you’re still open to conception.  When you’re unable to conceive due to financial, spiritual or emotional reasons it doesn’t work well.  The couple can’t consummate when the female’s body wants to.  This is very unfair for the female.  The abstinence burden isn’t shared equally. 

As a husband, I have decided to divulge from NFP during my wife’s fertile period in order to have a sexual experience that is more love giving.  I think that’s what Jesus would want me to do. 

Deirdre,

Goodness gracious, that is what I was thinking about my kids and me, too!  Yelling at them to stop bothering each other, constantly reminding the 5 year old that he is not allowed to yell out “Is church almost over?” and “I hate church!” and “I’m so bored!” during every Mass.  The fact that my wife only steps inside for Mass maybe, maybe, once per year and is otherwise never seen by anybody.  My daughter’s hair is brushed, technically, but still looks entirely neglected.  If people are comparing themselves to us and still think they’re failing, I’m praying for them harder than I’ve ever prayed for anybody.  :)

Grace builds on nature.

Simcha,
You make some great points.  I do cringe a bit nervously when someone attempts to take the “anti-perspective” on a subject so fraught with misunderstanding.  I don’t do well with this because somehow tone and other inflections go bad for me in type. 

My wife and I teach NFP.  We have 9 kids and we still struggle with sinful attitudes in many areas of our lives (esp. me). However, it is VERY useful to remember that NFP is a tool, a gift to assist us in our marriages in this day and time.  A tool, like a shovel can be quite effective in harm and good.  Currently, it usually takes some virtuous effort and desire to be obedient to God as a couple to actually learn and use NFP, because it remains so counter cultural even in the Church.  That is possibly why those astounding statistics about its benefits are true.

Yet, as more Bishops require NFP classes for marriage, the statistics may look worse, as those not really interested as a unified couple find it can be quite an effective weapon against their spouse when selfishness reigns.  Maybe that is another reason why I tend to cringe a bit when the wrong uses are so clearly articulated. 

BTW, I am NOT offended but the Amish schoolgirl analogy may not be the best.  Most of the Amish schoolgirls I have encountered are exactly the type of young girl that should be emulated; modest, feminine, hard- working and virtuous.  The “anti-perspective” thing makes that a bit convoluted.  Your point is good, though, about some differences between married chastity and unmarried chastity. It’s something to think more about.

Thanks for the post.  I will use this to talk to my husband tonight.

@ Deirdre:

My wife and I are using the “Lady Comp”. We’re both scatterbrained, so it’s a blessing. Very easy to follow: Red, yellow, and green lights. :) So far, so good, and we’ve been using it for 6 months.

Not the same as the Marquette monitor, but the same principle.

For those interested in Marquette, go to nfp.marquette.edu for all their info.  I agree with a previous post—there are many methods, and it’s okay to switch methods or mix-and-match when needed.  I am constantly amazed at how territorial some people can be about which method people use!

Open Minded: I don’t understand what you are saying. Divulge means to make known. How does one “divulge from NFP”? How does this make sex more “love giving”? Is it more love-giving because it’s more life-giving (as in: are you making love during her fertile period which would create life by conceiving)? I understand that the woman can be more “in the mood” when she’s fertile, making NFP more of a sacrifice for the woman, but so can menstrual cramps, morning sickness, and labor pains be an uneven sacrifice. If the man realizes the sacrifice is uneven, and he truly wants to lighten her burden, he could do so in other areas without negating NFP by taking charge of the charting, cleaning the house, cooking, doing laundry, etc.
By “unable to conceive”, do you mean seeking to avoid conception, or that the couple is infertile? If the reasons for avoiding pregnancy are financial (or even the other 2 you mentioned), then NFP is perfect, because pregnancy would not be life-threatening, and only God knows what our future holds financially (or emotionally or spiritually), so of course we can still be open to life. If the due date comes and you still cannot afford another child, you could give the generous blessing of new life to another family who actually *is* unable to conceive. (There are far more couples waiting to adopt infants than there are infants available for adoption.)

Open Minded: ok, I figured it out. You probably meant diverge. Ok, but what’s the point of NFP if you are going to diverge from it at the most important part of the cycle? If you are charting and deliberately make love during her fertile period, then that is called using NFP to achieve pregnancy. This would mean you are open to conceiving. If you do not want another child, then you are doing it backwards.
Burdens are not always bad. Jesus tells us to “pick up your cross”. There are blessings in the sacrifice. Please keep this in mind when you are considering what you think Jesus would want you to do. Also remember, like I mentioned in my previous comment, there are other ways to lighten her burden without negating the work she puts toward charting. It does require more self-sacrifice on your part, but personally I would consider that more love-giving.

@Carolyn: he probably means they use a condom, or have sexual relations besides intercourse.

“I think that’s what Hesus would want me to do.”
The mantra of the one who has made a god of himself.
Christ actually said he who loves me follows my commandments.
Open Minded, I will pray for you and your wife.

Men: Do not bother to take any time to learn the method. It is her body, not yours, and her fertility is something you are better off not knowing. Just beg her for sex and she’ll let you know exactly where she is in her cycle. (Unless she’s just trying to avoid you.) If you leave all the charting to her, then you will know exactly who to blame when things go wrong. Putting all the responsibility for charting on the woman is an excellent way to bring resentment, suspicion, recrimination, and blame into a marriage.

CAUTION: If the husband learns the method, he may gain a greater appreciation for his wife’s body and the couple’s fertility. If both partners are responsible for charting, then the couple is less likely to be sloppy at charting and more likely to be able to use the method as desired. The couple is more likely to communicate and make a mutual decision based on their shared fertility and their shared desires. DO NOT DO THIS!

Simcha,

Thank you for your article. I have never seen anything like it in print and I appreciate your thoughtful take on NFP and some of the pitfalls involved in following it. The way it was portrayed in our NFP classes before my husband and I were married was that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, that God would bless you because you were doing the RIGHT thing regarding your fertility, and that anyone who struggled with NFP for whatever reason wasn’t doing something right. What our classes didn’t do was prepare us for the reality of different sexual needs, the real fatigue involved in raising a family well while keeping your spouse “satisfied”, and that NFP could be used as a weapon as you so eloquently outlined.

I think you’ve done a great service for a lot of marriages today by talking about what happens in a lot of Catholic homes and the pain that many men and women suffer when they seek their own selfish desires rather than what best nurtures their marriages.

Jim, Yes!!! Spot on!  That’s the story at my house?  Sorry if tmi.  Nearly ready to give up, because I’m receiving zero support.  My husband said he wants to try NFP, but 3 months in and the burden is all mine.  I was hoping my marriage would improve, instead I want to cry.  :-(

Am I the only Catholic woman who enjoys sex?

I am tired of reading here and elsewhere article after article that assumes that a woman is doing her husband a favor by having sex with him. Even you, dear fabulous Simcha, write “...your husband that you’re very interested in finding as many available days as possible, because you desire him and his happiness.” This assumes that sex is NOT a part of the wife’s happiness?

Funny article (as always!) but disappointed that it upholds outdated stereotypes.

I don’t understand.  Are you saying that couples who practice natural family planning are, by definition, petty and manipulative?  What is your basis for asserting this?  The pure rage and hatred in the assumptions you make here about couple who use natural family planning seems to show that you have some personal issue with the method, and are seeking to discredit it without any factual basis.

I would also suggest that you (or the website, whichever is responsible for editing) get a better editor.  I noted several errors in the text, which, again, serve to make you appear angry and full of hatred.  I would be more interested in reading a rational, well-researched piece on the effects of natural family planning on the family unit, and its possible ramifications in Catholic philosophy.

@melarossa:  You’re right…you do not understand.

Brilliant, Simcha! “Screwtape” could not have put it better, and somewhere C. S. Lewis is smiling.

Simcha, God is using you to change lives and marriages for the better. You are amazing. Thank you.

To the community: If a couple is struggling with NFP, what they need more than anything is judgment. And “struggling” is anything less than Natural Family Perfection. If a couple isn’t into ecological breastfeeding, attachment parenting, homeschooling, only using NFP when they “have to”, and joyfully abstaining during the fertile period except for the fact that they cannot bring another new life into the world, then more judgment is exactly what they need to get back on track. Questioning their faith is a particularly effective tactic. If they do stumble, well, they were one step from the abortion clinic anyway and well on their way to hell. And struggles with abstinence are always the man’s fault. Always. Above all else, couples need to be reminded that you are better Catholics than they are. This little competition is exactly what Jesus wanted from his followers, right?
.
CAUTION: If you show compassion, kindness, and understanding, you may be able to help these couples through their struggles and improve their marriage and relationship with God. And then you would lose the competition, so DO NOT DO THIS.

@Lisa- praying for you and your husband!

Seconding Spoton. Yes Melarossa, you are seriously misreading Mrs. Fisher. What she is responding to is the tendency among NFP advocates to present only the upsides of it without really addressing potential pitfalls. They do mention the pitfalls occasionally, but in my experiece they are often casually dismissed and waved away.

Iam interested in this survey.

Just don’t fall the trap.  The trap is set by the false promise of consumerism when artifical birth control marketers make it appear that all is fine and dandy and with high success rates when used perfectly.  Life is not so perfect and the user effective rate is lower and with some there is a backup cocktail that acts as an abortafacient.  So the NFP couple tries to match the promise that NFP is also always jolly and without problems so as to compete with false marketing of artificial b/c.  Best thing is be honest with the reality, the struggles and joys, that NFP offers.

My husband and I do not use NFP at all, we don’t need to.  We don’t understand why there is the mentality that you HAVE to use it?  This is really a confusing message that we are receiving, I believe.  I wish someone would explain this better.  I understand the benefits of using NFP when needed, but I think that MOST Catholics really don’t need it.  I mean after all, doesn’t God know best for us anyway?  I say trust Him more and try to control less, no?  I understand those on extreme medications or living in the streets but really how many of those couples are in this situation?  Not very many I believe.  But what do I know?

To the community: That non/lax Catholic bride-to-be who is currently on the pill and currently living with her non/lax Catholic fiance is not worthy of this information. We need all-or-nothing commitment to Natural Family Perfection. If she can’t handle that right now, then she might as well head on over to the Episcopal Church now and not contaminate the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church with HER sinful ways. Never tailor your message to your audience and never stress the health benefits of NFP or its scientific basis. If she’s not convinced that Natural Family Perfection is God’s way and ready to sign up for RCIA/return to mass (preferably in Latin), then what’s the point? After all, we only do this because we love God and God never wants us to have any fun. Just babies. And suffering.
.
CAUTION: Women of all beliefs and no belief are unsatisfied with their birth control. Charting has physical and psychological health benefits that all women and all couples can appreciate. If secular couples learn to appreciate fertility awareness and the Catholic Church’s support of it, then perhaps they will be more open to other Catholic teachings. DO NOT DO THIS!

@Jim—hilarious. And right on.

@Jim: Chiding “the community” with condescending posts in an effort to stop them from treating others in a condescending manor….

Hello Mr. Kettle.  Meet Mr. Pot.

When I was a teen I thought the whole “no marriage or giving in marriage” in heaven thing was just mean of God. Now I see just how smart He is!(Christopher West’s canopy bed in the clouds notwithstanding).

@ Why not practice DP-NFP? : I’m not married, so I don’t really know what I’m talking about, but I *think* the idea is not so much that you HAVE to use NFP, but that a couple who takes the time to fully understand the woman’s cycle and how her sexuality expresses itself is a couple more attuned to each other, and that is always a good thing in marriage.  (Can someone with more experience jump in here?)

@Lisa: The best motivation for to get your husband to help is to tell him that two people are more likely to find infertile days than just one. That motivates most men. If avoiding pregnancy is a stronger motivator, then explain that two people are more likely to get it right than just one.
.
If this doesn’t work, then I suspect the real problem is that he really doesn’t want try NFP and is waiting for you to give up or fail. If this sort of passive aggressiveness is part of a larger pattern, you may want to consider marriage counseling.

@ Melarossa: Simcha is poking fun at the people who make the claim that NFP is contrary to marital love, that it ruins marriages, and is one of the more absurd things that the Church teaches.

It’s the fact that Active Roman Catholics have both a much higher rate of NFP use and lower divorce (23%), but that is a correlation, not causation.

It’s good to read that someone else doesn’t see NFP as the magical road to marital bliss. My wife and I use NFP, but I’ve never been able to bring myself to recommend it to anyone else, and the starry-eyed couple that always gives the NFP talk in our parish is either blessed with a low sex drive or just really blessed.

@Why not practice DP-NFP?
  What do you know? Apparently not much. NFP can be used for reasons other than life or death. My husband and I, for example, are postponing our next child due to the fact that I had to have a c-section with our last baby. I can’t wait to have another, but my body needs to heal so that I can be a good mother to my four children (7,5,3 and 15 months) I know if we continue to pray and discuss our fertility with God, we will not be using NFP as a catholic approved method of birth control. Don’t assume you know what is going on in most catholic families. We all have struggles, some are just more obvious than others.

@Catherine, then YOU have a good reason.  Hence my point.  I don’t assume, I see what others are doing.  Fraternal correction is not a sin.  Sorry!

  @ Melarossa - turn on your sarcasm/ irony detector… that should clear it up.

@Why Not Mind Your Own Business:

And ignorance is not a virtue. Just Say’n!

To Why not practice DP-NFP—my personal situation?  I just had a protracted miscarriage.  The OB would really like me to give it two cycles (min) before getting pregnant again.  I’m pretty fatigued and a tad anemic, so I think her recommendation makes sense.

Please don’t start projecting your own version of when it’s okay to use NFP on everybody else.

If you are having psychological or relational problems, including post-partum depression and parenting issues, do not seek professional help for these problems. Instead, be sure to blame NFP for all your problems and the Vatican for making you use it. And don’t forget to blame your partner while you are at it. You can even blame yourself, which should come naturally if you are already depressed. 
.
CAUTION: Getting professional help when you need it may make you happier, your marriage happier, and NFP easier to practice. It may even help your spiritual life. DO NOT DO THIS.

@ Me, then YOU have a reason.  I’m not projecting my own version of NFP on anyone, I sincerely asked a question.  Like usual, I’m probably seen as “judgmental” when someone questions a practice that is clearly being abused by many people, you know the ones that have two and are “done”...it’s okay I understand, I shouldn’t tell you something because I don’t know…and I probably am the sinner because I’m trying to point something out that might just be interpreted wrongly….again, this topic is being abused and NO ONE is speaking up about it.  No wonder people just use ABC…sad!  The three people that have responded, one isn’t married, the other two have medical reasons to use NFP…so your point is?  You have the real reasons to use NFP, I’m not speaking to or about you, it’s the ones that “think” you should use NFP no matter what!  I do know lots of people like this, unfortunately.  Anyway, I knew I would get crucified for pointing this out here…as usual!

This article actually makes me sad, and yes, I’m a man. My wife and I use NFP to either postpone, or achieve conception, and it’s worked very well as we stay within the rules and use it properly.

This is the problem: I’m a very physical person, albeit very respectful in that I never push, or pressure my wife into anything she doesn’t want to do.

By contast, my wife is very asexual, and has very low libido.  I love her and our kids dearly, but this has caused immense strain in our marriage.

We use NFP almost “robotically”. As a “tool” it works extremely well if postponing or trying to achieve pregnancy.

We are both involved in the charting…she doesn’t hide anything regarding where she is in her cycle.  We have discussed at length her needs/wants as well as mine.  It’s such a hard bridge to gap…someone has to give in terms of too much physical attention (for her), or too little (for me) to deal with.

I am an understanding man.  I don’t mope around feeling sorry for myself.  I don’t take my frustrations out on her or my children.  I work, run a business, and help out around the house.  I do most of the dishes, and actually most of the cooking.  I take kids to events and try to help out with daily stuff as much as I can to take the burden off of her.

At times, I feel like I am the least of importance in her life.  I can understand the children taking up most of the time and needed affection etc, but I’m human and need a bit of that myself.

It’s been a painful journey. I’m trying to take up my cross and not feel sorry for myself or get frustrated.  But lack of physical intimacy is really testing me…and I feel tempted at every step of the way to view imagines, or think thoughts that I know aren’t right.

We’ve been married over 10 years, and I’m currently on a one year hiatus from having any sexual/physical intimacy with my wife.  In the past it had gone as long as 15 months. 

We don’t suffer from financial troubles, nor health troubles.  We have happy, healthy kids who are excelling and thriving.  We probably LOOK like the “perfect” family at mass that you speak of…if only people knew of the pain we deal with within ourselves.

I really don’t know how to get through this. I need your prayer and support as I am really struggling.  Thanks in advance…

I don’t think women are useful, simply because if I get a woman, I might very well get a chart, but charts are really neat!  I ... like them better on computers, so, a woman that doesn’t mind the company of a computer is useful.  ... I don’t mind useless women, but I think, that they are better off with other men.  Sexual perversions are always second rate, clearly, something to chart in terms, of frequency, to gauge successes, and failures, in amending our wanton ways.  Somehow going to Hell as a matter of choice, it is a peculiarly unattractive deterrant.  Planning to sin is sin.  Unacceptable.  Thank you Holy Spirit for staying on the positive side of inspiration, so much talk of hell, and sin, is a drag.  Nice work, Simcha. I’ll share this one to save it.

@Why not practice DP-NFP:  Perhaps your point is being lost on others due to the way that you express it.  For example, characterizing others disagreeing with what you wrote as being “crucified” seems a bit much no?  You may want to put a little more thought into how you word your posts.

@Why not Practice—maybe people are upset because your original query implied that only the *most* dire situations could justify NFP—extreme medications and living on the streets.

Charting is good for a woman’s health. What the couple does with that information is their decision.
.
http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/safeguarding-reproductive-health/abnormal-patterns.html
.
“This chart, of a bizarre mucus pattern, enabled early detection of adenocarcinoma [cancer] of the cervix in a 33 year old woman.  A pan-hysterectomy was performed. No evidence of metastatic cancer was detected.  Her doctors commented that she would not have survived until her next scheduled Pap Smear if she had not identified the abnormality in her chart.”

Dave - I will pray for you and your family.  That sounds like a heavy burden.  You write “At times, I feel I am of the least importance in her life.”  This sounds to me like the crux of the matter, and the lack of sexual intimacy a side-effect (albeit a large, significant one that needs to be addressed).  Do you think your wife would be open to seeing a marriage counselor with you? Perhaps she doesn’t miss the physical side as much, but maybe she feels an emotional deficit for her part… It does sound like your marriage needs some outside support.  At any rate, prayers for you.

Uh…what is DP-NFP? (Just when I thought I was getting it all straight…)

Have practiced NFP.  I’m unsure how the husband can help with charting?  Navigating these issues.  Thanks.

@WF:  staying silent about NFP is the same as endorsing illicit alternatives.  ALL NFP couples struggle with it - even those who are “starry-eyed” at Mass - promise.  What they don’t do is give up - they know that there is no alternative and that their struggle is not in vain.

I’m guessing DP = Divine Providence

@Gina - Thank-you for your prayers and support, much appreciated.  We had discussed counselling, but we have five children and so it’s extremely difficult to figure out how we’d make it work. As well, if we went to a counsellor we’d have to humbly express our problems and issues which really bothers my wife.  I mean, to her it’s a very embarrasing personal problem…I can understand that.  I know it sounds like we are making excuses, but it’s hard to solve a problem if my wife doesn’t feel we have a real problem in the first place :(

Unsure, my understanding from what I have read:  one of the attractive characteristics of NFP, is it’s something couples can do together.  The man can chart.  Discussion is facilitated.  He can mark, and listen, and talk.  Probably better for me, who are involved, to share their positive stories, and limitations, on the matter.  Temperature is important.

To “Why Not Practice” - you write that NFP is “clearly being abused by many people.”  How would you know this so “clearly?” 

NFP is practiced by a very small fraction of Catholics; those who bother to follow Church teaching on the matter of contraception are not a demographic that can easily be accused of cutting corners or cherry-picking convenient doctrines over difficult ones.

Every single NFP couple I’ve ever met is hugely concerned with following Church teaching in its entirety.  Those who have discerned that God may be calling them to have a smaller family often accept to endure long and difficult periods of abstinence rather than contracept…it’s very hard for me to sqaure such radical dying to self with selfishness or “abuse” of NFP.  I supposed NFP can be practiced selfishly, but if selfishness were truly the modus operandi of a couple, they would be contracepting, no?

Dave, I don’t know that I can help, but the “robotic” end of your problem, bothered me a bit.  I may be wrong, but I own a calculator.  It is has “statistical” button on it.  I get this selection for “random”.  I punch in a number, and it generates some number at or less than what I punch in.  Sometimes the number shows up randomly, repeatedly, ... one year, or more, that is 365 + 90.  Maybe if you, and your wife flip a coin on her number, and your number, it will certainly come up as less than what either of you punch in, and that might settle the matter.  Less robotic.  More random.  Then you have to go ahead and figure out the turn on for her.  You may fail.  You might succeed.  Possibly, the both of you will have fun trying?

@dave- Has your wife always had a low libido? If it is a change, hormones, depression and/or sleep deprivation might be causing this.

@Kristopher…please don’t take what I’ve written to the tee.  I used robotic to describe our NFP charting methods.  We do it precisely, exact, “robotic” if you will.  Our physical, intimate life is anything but.  I appreciate your effort to help, but my wife is not open to random coin flipping to determine if we are sexually active or not…in any case, thank-you for trying to help :)

Seriously, if I were 2 kids and done, I would not use NFP. Modern medicine has ways to ensure the permanence of the decision to limit offspring to two.

“Have practiced NFP.  I’m unsure how the husband can help with charting?  Navigating these issues.  Thanks.”
.
Keep the actual piece of paper/electronic file and ask your wife what she saw that day.
.
The nice thing about Billings (and Creighton) is that you have to make a “call” at the end of each day about what color stamp to put down. With both partners making the “call” together, discussion is facilitated and the method better understood. If you are temping, anyone can record a temperature and interpret a temperature graph. (And that isn’t always easy, which is why an extra set of eyes help—and why the Billings dropped it.)

@priestswife - Yes, she’s always had low libido and low self esteem :(

“Why not practice DP-NFP”:  I agree with you.

@Dave—your patience and understanding is commendable.  But perhaps it’s time to put your foot down just a bit—I don’t mean insist on sex, but insist that your wife **start getting to the bottom of this issue.**

First stop would be a thorough medical exam, with her explicitly explaining “the problem” to the doctor prior to starting the exam.  Medical issues can be embarrassing, but they have to be dealt with.  If nothing medical shows up, the harder part would be finding a suitable counselor who would be Catholic-friendly (i.e. not someone who would suggest porn as a good way to get her libido up, etc.)  But again—this is not a normal, healthy or sustainable way of living for EITHER of you. 

I’ll be praying for you both.

Dave,
We pray for those struggling in their marriages, mainly because it helps us to not focus on ourselves so much.  You have a marriage issue NOT an NFP issue.  Although, NFP could help.  First of all, you are not using the “tool” well if you are going 15 months without sexual relations.  As a couple you are not even using it robotically. That would mean having marital relations regularly. 

Your number one job is to lead your wife to Christ. You need to pray for her every single day and love her with a sacrificial love.  From what you wrote it sounds like you are doing this and leading as Christ does in serving.  I wish I had more info to encourage you better but this is a heavy cross to bear.  You have to know that as a Catholic you have ALL the tools of grace available.  Pray, pray, and pray.  Invoke the prayers of saints and do novenas.  Most importantly, become a saint for her and your children through this suffering and persevere.  Pray for all of us who couldn’t handle your cross.  By your offering (see CCC #901) consecrate your family to the LORD. 

Finally, get help.  Tell your priest, call your NFP teacher, and beg God for direction.  As JPII so often reminded us, God wants nothing more than your marriage to succeed.  Keep pressing on! Phil. 3:13-14

Dave, sounded like you will enjoy waiting.  Good luck.

@Me….thanks and yes she has seen the doctor.  We know what the issue is, but she’s reluctant to “fix” it :(  I’m definitely not the forceful one, so perhaps I’ve just allowed this to continue on…I guess I can take some of the blame :(

@David - Thank you so much for your encouragement.  Just some background. I didn’t divulge this initially, but We are NFP teachers.  We teach others the method and I can honestly say that I feel hypocritical each time we teach someone this method.  I do it with the knowledge that it IS a good method and will probably help them out.

My wife doesn’t need to be lead to Christ, she’s a staunch Catholic who is holy.

You are right about prayer…I need to do more of it…Much more of it…thank-you for that reminder.

This article is written in a great humorous way to show what not to do in a marriage. Frankly, you can apply these thoughts in other areas of a relationship.

I wonder how many overuse NFP? I wonder how many sought spiritual counsel to identify the possibility that NFP may not be appropriate? When we went to pre-Cana before we married, I remember the distinct impression that NFP was presented almost defensively. There were many attendees who angrily sat through the teachings on contraception and abortion [nobody’s gonna tell me I can’t use contraception!! grrrr]. I felt as if the concept was presented as if “well, no you can’t use artificial means, but hey you can still avoid children this way”, as if placating those who wanted to avoid children until they wanted them so that these couples would still be ‘Catholic’. To me, contraception is in the intent, no matter what the exact method. The message was very confused and mixed. Fortunately our kindly and orthodox priest marrying us made it clear that NFP can only be used under the gravest circumstances and under spiritual direction. He told us very plainly that we were not candidates for NFP.

I have always heard that an unhappy sex life is an indicator of other problems. For instance couples may fight over money, when in reality the real issues are other things such as control, laziness, man’s relinquishing of authority, selfish indulgence and disregard of the spouse, ha, name something LOL. Unhappiness of the spouse can be simple selfishness or it can be the result that their spouse isn’t working on the other’s happiness/comfort/satisfaction.

This article lightly presents the concept that marriage, just like everything we do, should be in terms of serving the other spouse, fulfilling duties with love. We must act as the servant of all in everything.

my 2 cents anyway…

There is a true language of love.  It will take all of us a lifetime to learn it in such a way that we are ready for our final end. Sarcastic words on such a profound topic resonate with pain.  It makes a powerful point, but this kind of honesty is biting.  I understand the approach, but it’s difficult to read.  If this is what it takes to penetrate selfishness, than the approach has merit.
.
Hopefully those that are domineering and petty, who might actually abuse the control of NFP, and those that flout it in the name of Godliness sit up and question their true motivations for why they behave the way that they do.  Nobody wants to feel used at either end of the scale.
.
My advice after 26 years of marriage?  Sustained eye contact. Honesty. ... Tenderness no matter what.
.
John Paul the Great was right when he said that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference.

Simcha, this is SO FREAKIN GREAT.  What a good essay.

Tina - you write “Fortunately our kindly and orthodox priest marrying us made it clear that NFP can only be used under the gravest circumstances and under spiritual direction.”  This is simply not the teaching of the Church. 

(Simcha has hosted several discussions on this point, with many theologians providing very clear documentation of the actual Church teaching.  The take-home points being:
1) the Church requires “just” reasons (not “the gravest circumstances”) for postponing a pregnancy,
2) what constitutes a “just reason” will look different in each family and circumstance (again, Simcha has a great thread on this)
3)the Church in her wisdom allows couples to prayerfully discern together when and how to use NFP.  Couples do not require special “permission” to use NFP - although spiritual direction can be invaluable for a couple who is seeking guidance in this regard.

@Gina N.: Exactly! I can’t imagine a couple abstaining month after month without serious reasons unless there is something else going on there. I don’t think too many couples who are “abusing NFP” exist.

Simcha, thanks especially for #3. What a break through it was for me to discover that intercourse is my husband’s way of getting close to me! As a woman, I get close to him through our sharing of feelings.  If I feel distant from him, then I don’t feel loved and don’t want to make love. But when I shut him out physically, I take away his means of getting close, so he gets more emotionally distant… and on and on.  This discovery has been HUGE, NFP or not (we are using it to postpone), to respecting the way God made us both and it has put us on the road to deeper intimacy.

@Gina, BINGO! Here is where you and I (or Tina) don’t see eye to eye, why NOT involve your spiritual director in this situation?  Makes no sense not to…what you and DH may think is a grave reason just might not be and through the beautiful use of Spiritual direction, you may realize this or see other options.  I don’t see why a couple would avoid going to see a priest about this?

Why not: I think you and I agree here—in my post to Tina I noted that “spiritual direction can be invaluable for a couple seeking guidance in this regard.”  I know my husband and I have benefited enormously from it, and would encourage others to do the same.  But it is not the same to say this and to say that NFP can only be used with the permission of a spiritual director…

There’s a really good post on this topic over at:

http://philotheaonphire.blogspot.com/2012/04/marital-chastity-fruitful.html

Lots of food for thought and discussion.

@ Gina- Seriously. I don’t need spiritual direction to decide whether or not avoiding pregnancy at 2 months postpartum is a good idea, LOL!

And unfortunately, spiritual direction by priests who even believe in humanae vitae is very sparse in some places, including where I live.

@Gina, right I understand BUT sadly, MOST of the time the spiritual direction is considered “unnecessary”.  It is my understanding that each time you want to use NFP (since each time in our lives are different circumstances) we should ask…buy why, I ask, is this suggestion missed?  Why would a couple NOT want to involve their spiritual director in this?  Honestly, this I am confused about…actually this whole NFP thing puzzles me because I honestly see the rewards and benefits of trusting in the Will of God.

Men and Women, remember to beat yourself up mercilessly if you have just started learning NFP after contracepting and you fall into former ways.  Use a cat of nine-tails if necessary. Be sure to blame each other’s sex drives and lack of self-control.  Be sure to blame God for making love-making so pleasurable and making your spouse so desirable.  Be sure not to partake in the Sacrament of Confession.
Caution:  Having a clear grasp of perfect contrition even in grave matters is essential to understanding God’s mercy for us and our falleness.  A couple’s mutual sorrow motivated by God’s personal goodness can only drive them closer to one another physically, emotionally and spiritually and assist them the when similar circumstances occur.  DO NOT DO THIS

Margaret: I think you misattributed my comment?  Perhaps you meant to address the poster “Why no practiceDP-NFP”  I would agree with you, since spiritual direction, while highly beneficial, is certainly not required by the Church…

Oh, sorry, I was agreeing with you. Tone is often lost in comboxes! I meant the seriously as “seriously, totally agree with you”. Hehe.

@ Margaret :) Seriously.

And I’ll put another plug on her for Living the Sacrament. I am part of a forum of Catholic women using NFP or using nothing. We seek to support each other to live out the Marital Sacrament and have ladies in all parts of fertility: engaged, postponing children, trying to conceive, pregnant, infertility, parenting, etc.

It’s a great place to get support which can be wonderful especially for those of us who feel we don’t know people in real life who are practicing similar lifestyles.

If anyone would like to come get some more support, we would love to have you. Visit www.livingthesacrament.com

@Dave, I have a few ideas.  I can only speak for myself, but in my experience sex is so, so, so much more than the actual act.  In order for a wife to be able to “switch gears” from dishes, diapers and kids who don’t want to brush their teeth, they need to decompress.  In order for her to decompress to *you*, she needs to feel *safe*, relaxed, and confident in your love for *whole her*, so you can help her switch gears. Read to the kids while she takes a warm shower.  Be charming early in the morning and throughout the day. She needs to know it is about way more than the carrot at the end of a stick.  Text her sweet messages.  Book mark some great passages from “Theology of the Body”, read them to her.  They show how sexy God really is.  Read her the “Song of Songs” with candle light.  If she has a puritanical background, you have to convince her of what a heresy this is. (Not a new one either)  Buy a great, tasteful, sex manual—one that alleviates her fears that practices that others have condemned in the past as immoral, actually make fantastic foreplay to the main event. Pleasure her entire body.  Make 10 of those minutes count like nobody’s business.  *Court her*.  buy her flowers.  Out of the blue, get her a beautiful blouse.  Wrap it in lovely wrapping.  Include a beautiful love note.  Tell her how beautiful she looks in it.  Hold her hand, *everyhere*.  Catch her eye, let her see your affection in your glance.  By all means ***Do not watch pornography***She will intuit it on a very deep level, and this will repel her.  Show her how you only have eyes for her.  In the language of love you need to celebrate the *woman*, who for the time you are loving each other, can forget that she’s also a mother, and household manager.  Give her time.  PRAY with her.  PRAY before sex, offering the author of love your bodies…In time, she will be able to do all of the same as you and more.  She might start looking at her watch impatiently, and say, “Honey!  It’s 7:45!  Let’s get those kids reading and to bed.  That’s code.  And she’ll smile brilliantly at you when she says it. (Her heart will skip a beat when she thinks of how you prepare her for love.)

@Married Modern Catholic, No, you are not the only Catholic woman who enjoys sex.  Far from it!  It’s just that it’s a common situation for the man to want sex more than the woman, even when they both want it (as I think is usually the case).  In my situation, my husband has a very low sex drive, and pretty much always has.  I felt heartbroken and ignored when we were newlyweds 25 years ago and he only wanted sex two or three times a month (whereas *I* wanted it every day!), and that desire has dwindled to his wanting it only once or twice a year now. I spent years praying for God to take my sex drive away from me, and He has finally answered my prayers.  I now know that my husband’s problem is medical in nature (in part, a side effect of necessary medicines he needs to take for other serious medical problems he has, and in part, a side effect of those other medical problems themselves).  I thank God for the three children we were able to conceive. (We did use NFP because my husband was scared to think of having any more children when he had such serious medical issues, but looking back on it, we probably could have just left it to Divine Providence and probably wouldn’t have had any more kids).  I’m also thankful that God has allowed me to grow spiritually and become much less selfish because of the unequal sex drives in our marraige.

“Honestly, this I am confused about…actually this whole NFP thing puzzles me because I honestly see the rewards and benefits of trusting in the Will of God.”
.
I am sure you do, but you are not OBLIGATED to do so.
.
Many people see the rewards of celibacy for the Kingdom, but nobody is OBLIGATED to so. Otherwise, we would have gone the way of the Shakers years ago. Same thing with Daily Mass, private devotions, Eucharistic adoration, and plenty of other practices in the Church.
.
If NFP can be sinful, then where is the sin? Knowledge of fertility isn’t a sin. Agreeing to not have relations isn’t a sin. Having relations when conception is naturally impossible isn’t a sin. Perhaps these decisions could come from a vague and general spirit of selfishness in the couple, but the individual acts cannot be sinful.
.
A couple of normal fertility who could actually manage to “use NFP selfishly” is going have all sorts of other problems in their relationship and spiritual life. A selfish lifestyle is a selfish lifestyle and not being open to life would only be one possible symptom of a much larger problem.
.
Some couples can easily handle twelve children. Others struggle with two. Still others wish they could have two or even one, but can’t. Couples may be called to have a large family or they may be called to have fewer children. Should they feel called to have fewer children, they are OBLIGED to limit their family size in a moral way.

@Jim, you aren’t obligated to trust the Will of God? 

I’m not talking about family size here, why?  Because assuming that you don’t use NFP to space children or NFP at all = having a large family is also erroneous.  That’s the thing about trusting God’s will, He knows best what we can handle. We have been married for 10 years and have exactly 5 children, my youngest is 2 and no pregnancy yet.

How does one feel obliged to have a smaller family exactly?

“I’m not talking about family size here, why?”
.
Oh, I thought you were. It looks like I read something that wasn’t there.
.
That being said, there is a fine line between “trusting God’s will” and failing to take responsibility to properly discern and execute said will. Noah trusted God’s will, but he still designed and built the Ark.

@Dave.  You’re not alone.  You could be describing myself and husband, except it sounds like you do more chores.    Working our way through this as well….    No advice just there too.

@why not practice DP… Has it not occurred to you that not every Catholic in the world HAS a spiritual director? Living in a parish, attending Mass, going to confession, and finding the priests of the parish vaguely suitable for these things, does not mean that the same priests would be suitable for lengthy discussions of matters like NFP. Not all priests are created equally, remember there are some out there who promote artificial birth control.

So are you saying that not using NFP is irresponsible, Jim?

@A:  I understand, that is a sad reality.  :(  I have thought about THAT situation.  I pray for these erroneous priests teaching something other than what Holy Mother Church teaches.  :(

@dave: this strikes close to home. I don’t know if it’s possible to discover if your wife suffered from sexual abuse as a child or other major dysfunction in her family. These things play out in odd ways (as well as the usual, straight-forward ways). Interestingly, when your own children reach the same age as when the problem began for the victim, it stirs the pot, so to speak. What may have been safely buried (but not properly dealt with) manifests itself and reopens the wound. You’ve been heroically kind, but eventually professional help may be required. Daunting, I know, but necessary.

[That said, please know that non-physical people can be entirely loving and appreciative of their spouse. It’s just not transmitted, as it should be. Love your children, and remind them gently/appropriately how to express their affection and the message might ripple through the family…]

I would say not having at least some vague idea of what is going on is irresponsible. See my earlier comment for why charting is always a good idea. The couple can do what they like with the information. They can try to conceive, try to avoid, or just see what happens, depending on their situation.
.
But any of the three options is a choice that is made with information. Just seeing what happens is still a choice and it may or may not be most virtuous one.

@ Why Not Practice DF-NFP - I think I get what you are saying, and I ask the same question myself. 

When a married couple has a serious reason for postponing pregnancy, their morally-licit options for doing so are either complete abstinence from relations, or the periodic abstinence of NFP.  Also, for a couple struggling to conceive, charting of cycles might be helpful.

But what about the couples who fit neither category, and which is possibly the largest percentage of Catholic couples?  I’m all for the “go about your business, and let God bless you with another child if/when He will” approach, myself.  I understand that continual charting of the woman’s cycle can have benefits (noticing health problems, properly dating conception, etc.).  But I feel like so many NFP-proponents believe that all married couples should be using NFP *AT ALL TIMES*. 

It’s ok to let go of the control, and let God surprise you sometimes.  NFP can be a useful tool when necessary, but by no means is it a necessary part of a healthy and holy Catholic marriage.

Why not practice DP-NFP: I agree with you as well. Thanks for speaking up.

@Christine: There is no rule that says you have to follow any of the “rules”.
.
But “going about your business” is as much of a choice as TTA or TTC.

@why not dp,

The way you feel obliged to have a smaller family is when you become absolutely certain that you cannot be a good parent to any more children.  Whether YOU think I could have handled more than five is completely irrelevant to me.  My husband and I knew we couldn’t.  I almost didn’t have number five, but God literally, forcefully inducated to me that I was not to stop at four.  Now that I have five, and we have decided on no more, I am very at peace.  We have all the children we are *supposed* to have.  God and I are at peace.  You have no business telling us we are not!

Thanks! We’ve learned a lot of this the hard way too, and it’s nice to hear someone articulate it well!

@Jim, just wondering why you are in sixteen-comment-hyper-drive.  Do you have control issues?  Either that, or maybe try decaf.

And yet, the person who COUNTED HIS POSTS somehow doesn’ t have control issues?

“NFP works well when you’re still open to conception.  When you’re unable to conceive due to financial, spiritual or emotional reasons it doesn’t work well.  The couple can’t consummate when the female’s body wants to.  This is very unfair for the female.  The abstinence burden isn’t shared equally.”

Wait, I don’t get it. It’s unfair when a woman’s body really wants it, but it’s fair when a man’s body really wants it? Aren’t men always ‘ovulating’? :) Surely a man also wants to have sex the most when his spouse is the most physically receptive to it as well. Why must men ‘buck it up’ but it’s a ‘theological attack on women’—to use the phrase from the author of ‘open embrace’ (now b.c. user)—to have to refrain during the fertile time?

I’m trying to understand this. Is it a double-standard or is there really something more sacred about when women are biologically primed for sex, such that it’s something verging on sacrilege not to have sex with her?

Help me out!

lol, hit it on the money eh? (Was it actually 16? Lol)

Fertility is going to work with NFP, or without it.  ... duh.  I’m not the sort of child, that made life easy for anyone, but I was born.  NFP wasn’t a method at the time of, or prior to, my birth.  People intuited more or less that the woman was fertile because she was pretty much irresistable despite or in spite of her resistance.  ... some chase.  Mom was caught.  I was conceived.  I was born.  The story didn’t end with me, ... .

Are some people saying that NFP is being abused because it is being used like contraception?  That’s what I am picking up.  If you use NFP with a contraceptive mentality, then it probably is a sin.  If you approach it as an instrument of God’s will, then it probably isn’t…. Right?

... some of you sound spoiled.

....and some of you sound judgmental and utterly uncharitable.

Brian Killian,

  The time of abstaining would be very similar for males and females. When the female is fertile and receptive, it is difficult for her to abstain. It is a challenge for the male to abstain when he is ready but the female is unavailable. The big difference between the male and female is that the fertile window could be the only time that the female has desire and so if she is engaging during the non-fertile period, she may be doing so without desire or even possibly with aversion. This could not biologically occur in the male. That is the point at which the unevenness or unfairness enters.

Jennifer M, my comment was off the cuff, and not directed to anyone in particular ... were I to put it another way:  planned or unplanned, we’re not always going to get precisely what we want.  Whether we’re relying on Providence, or NFP, chance has it’s sway ... not altogether how either way it’s put forward, is uncharitable, or judgemental, but you are welcome to your own opinion.

Ida K, I’m not sure I followed your reasoning, that a man cannot possess any biological mechanism as regards sexual reproduction, that would cause him to be sexually involved with aversion, and a lack of desire ... fertility, alone, isn’t the driving factor toward sexual reproduction—same with a lack of it.  We act on our sexual drive in different ways, some more healthy than others—I guess, all you are saying, fertility being a difference between men, and women, biologically there is what may be an advantage, or a disadvantage, between men, and women, and when the advantage is settled to the favor of one, rather than two, then the unfairness creeps in to the matter ... did I understand, well enough?

NFP CAN IMPOSE INCREDIBLE STRAIN ON A MARRIAGE.ONE CAN BE EXTREMLY SELFISH USING THIS METHOD OF BIRTH CONTROL. IT IS NOT METHOD THAT MATTERS BUT ATTITUDE AND CHRIST ASKS US TO BE GENEROUS.

I didn’t want to get too explicit but I guess I need to be clearer. I was attempting to answer the question about why it is *more* unfair for women to abstain during their fertile time than for men to abstain (usually also during wife’s fertile time if the couple is TTA). As discussed above, a woman’s desire for relations is highest during her fertile time. Brian asked why it is more unfair to her to abstain at that time than for her husband to do so. I answered that it is not the abstaining that is unfair. It is the “green light” times that are unfair since her desire at that time is nil or even negative (i.e. she does not want to be intimate). In this example, the wife has to have relations when she does not care to, if relations are to be had with regularity. Usually, it does not matter to the husband what time of month they are intimate since his drive is much more even. My original point was that the man actually could not complete the marital act if he was not interested, unlike the wife, whose interest, biologically speaking, is immaterial.

“Jim”  I’m so thick, I finally figured it out.  Mea Culpa—I just pictured you as this 401k loving guy, pushing a chart on his wife month after month.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Sorry.

Brian Killian,
I totally agree with you and support your comment 100%. As a female with a female sex drive, I have explained to my other female friends that if they are struggling with a low libido during the infertile phases, then I will be happy to watch their kids while they get the hormonal or thyroid help they need to have a natural waxing and waning female sex drive. (Wow, that was one sentence, but I don’t know how to fix it!) Because of all the artificial progestin in our water supply, it is often thyroid issues. Sadly, it is a double standard, Brian. I am sorry for that. Mutual fertility is when both sex drives are at their highest. But if a female is bottoming out during *her* infertile phase, she often does need to chart to find the source. The man who is compassionate and understanding during that is performing an act of virtue. (My heart goes out to Dave and his wife in the previous posts.)

And before I forget, Simcha, you rocked it again. I agree, C.S. Lewis is smiling.

Ida K, men as Catholics are obligated to handle their sexuality in much the same was as priests do—a wife doesn’t exclude a man from chastity / celibacy, (Whatever difference between the words exist.), I’m not going to claim this is the norm, but it is the ideal:  as are sexual relations to create intimacy, rather than indifference.

@Dave:  Will definitely pray for you.  This topic has been heavy on my mind lately.  I’m the woman in this kind of situation, married less than a year, so I can only imagine the frustration and pain that can build up over the years even in the most loving of marriages.  I get depressed sometimes hearing about the beauty of NFP and the Theology of the Body - I’ve studied them a lot, I know it’s true, why is my body suffering such a road block?

Though I have yet to make time to follow it, I second the advice to seek Catholic/Christian counseling and medical advice.  It’s so painful for you, and it’s got to be a beating to your wife’s self esteem as well.  Maybe she feels guilty stirring up any enthusiasm for love-making because it’s “not genuine?”  I try to remind myself that my attraction and passion for my husband is real, even if my body refuses to respond a certain way, and so the expression doesn’t have to be empty.  But BOY is it tough not to become bitter or a sob-fest, and I’m afraid it will really hurt my husband in the long term if I’m unable to respond physically.

I’m almost certain that talking to a sensitive doctor or counselor who’s “heard it all before” would be a relief for your wife, especially if she’s embarrassed.  (I tried talking to a close friend… mistake.  It just made her super uncomfortable and very sad, and she couldn’t even begin to relate.  That hurt, too.)  It means a lot to me to know there are couples out there carrying the same cross; I think that knowledge, that not-being-alone, is important for whatever healing God will bring.  God be with you!  ...P.S. If anyone out there knows how to find good counseling or Catholic advice on this topic, please share!!

I agree, Kristopher Finstad, that chastity is required of both the husband and wife during her fertile time if NFP is being used to avoid pregnancy. During the other times, it would certainly be ideal if sexual relations led to intimacy but it does not always work out that way due to a plethora of factors.

Ida K, okay, great:  my brain must have been on overload.  Glad we agree.  Things don’t always work out so well ...

Marie, about finding good counseling, or Catholic advice:  I came across one fellow, and the details are a bit lost; still, a counselor—who will give you something to do, and keep giving you something to do—can be helpful.  Otherwise, allowing others to be teachers through their works, books, is good, and possibly less damaging.

Simcha, thank you for writing this article for NCR.  I am a single (never married) celibate woman who tries to read the NCR posts on Facebook as often as possible.  Even your commenters are educational to me.  God bless all of you for being here.

@DP-NFP: As a married couple and parents, we are called to responsible parenthood. This certainly does not mean that the gift of a new life is ALWAYS planned for, but what fun would life be without surprises? On the other hand, we live in a very unstable world, a couple may not always be financially prepared for another child, or in some cases there may be physical or emotional healing before welcoming a new life. These are reasons to practice NFP in order to postpone, but NFP is certainly also used to conceive! NFP has a manifold purpose, one that Blessed Pope John Paul II spoke about frequently. NFP is like the Bible, as a couple we may struggle through some parts and may let things get in the way of our ultimate marital unity, but we have to persevere and we will find a fullness of meaning and understanding eventually. Just so, the Old Testament would seem entirely pointless if Christ never appeared! We may not see the immediate benefits of using NFP, but that certainly does not mean they aren’t there. I have slowly witnessed my husband gaining more self-control as a result of NFP… granted, he still has a ways to go, but don’t we all? Sure it would be great if we couls all be making babies all the time, but we don’t all have unlimited amounts of money, health, and sanitt… and thar is where being a reaponsible parent comes into play.

@Dave: Sounds like you and your wife could use a Marriage Encounter. You may want to get a copy of “Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition.” It sounds like there could be some deficiency in her diet. You are definitely a godly man! Also, I highly recommend Gary Chapman’s books on the languages of love. There seems to be a little miscommunication, it happens to us all, but it is having a profound impact on your “love tank” not being full!  Which in turn causes your wife’s to run low, because you are ONE! Washing dishes and taking care of the kids sounds great and really helpful, but as a woman and mama, I would rather have my husband sit down on the couch with me and rub my feet and back… and don’t wait to get lovey-dovey until we are in bed and exhausted - those breastfeeding hormones knock me out at night! Lol. But really, I hope you and your wife can really focus on your love life and get those love tanks filled up again!

Marie, not to get too graphic, but most women can’t climax from intercourse alone.  I can think of maybe 2 or 3 times that’s happened in the 19 years I have been making love with my husband.  JP2 described making sure his wife climaxes as a duty for husbands.  Some people will try to tell you that certain kinds of foreplay are immoral, but they are wrong.

From the look of things this work is very nice and is for the wise onec the parable of Christ was hard to understand ,think of this from the writer holy and holy things are naver funny ,and men and women see life in the exacltly the same way (to God),laughter leads to closeness.and help.

@Marie,  Don’t get down on yourself or your body.  When it comes to sex, men and women function differently.  As for *love*, we are the same.  I like how Peter Kreeft puts it:  “It’s between the ears before it is between the legs.”  My guess is that on some level there has been a breakdown in communication.  We can deeply love our husband/wife and still suffer a “roadblock”.  It can seem so profound that it would appear to be a physical, organic problem.  My husband and I passed through a period of time like that.  I despaired of it getting better.  With brutal honesty, vulnerable communication, tears, and prayers, and trust in God, it got so much better, that I cry for the years that I had lost hope that it would, and I had functioned more on the “sacrificial” level, while still engaging in relations frequently.  Address your problems with vulnerability.  Without recrimination.  Educate yourselves to biological realities.  Say “no” to “gnostic” lies, because evil wants you either not to enjoy the gift, or to replace it with a counterfeit… and remember, if you are not giving yourself 100%, with abandon, the soul *knows*, but it takes “three” at 100% to become sublime.

@Marie: Check One More Soul for NFP doctors. If anything churchea normally have booklets with all the professionals in the parish. And check out “Fertility,  Cycles, and Nutrition.” Charting and using NFP can help expose underlying health issues. And as far as support, there are loads of sites online where women talk about such difficulties. But if you need something really fast, don’t hesitate to shoot me a message (although it may take a couple days to get a response): brinnanna7768@aol.com :)

Marie: I didn’t feel comfortable talking to a doctor, but I did a lot of research myself. You have to look upon this as a health issue: it’s not normal for a young, healthy woman to have no sex drive. It’s all about the hormones (I’m assuming, of course, that you don’t have any emotional or psychological hang-ups about sex). Your body is telling you something is wrong. I found help in a good multi-vitamin (and some extra single vitamins), regular moderate exercise, eating well, progesterone cream and believe it or not - dark chocolate. Just a word of caution about exercise: thin women, who exercise heavily often have hormonal imbalances. Also women who don’t have enough fat in their diet or are vegans often have hormonal imbalances. You should pursue every (moral) “cure” that you can. It really is very, very important.

To all: Love the discussion and the article was awe inspiring as well. One comment. Please go easy on the NFP teachers/instructors. After 37 years of being one and still instructing.. NFP is information. What a couple/person does with that information after they leave the room is their choice. I am not a marriage counselor/ spiritual director/physician/librarian/sex therapist. I can not save your marriage neither can NFP. Be grateful you learned NFP be grateful to the person, priest, bishop, who made it available. I would only change one thing if I had to walk the whole 37 yrs again That would be to STRESS that NFP is information only because it seems everyone whats more.
Go get the “more” you want,that is your job. Being a worker in Gods vineyard of NFP gave me many enemies,many many friends,and a thirst for more.. health information, ethics, morality and Church teaching. NfP really did save my life once and it gave me a wonderful life. It challenged my husband and I to stretch in our hospitality, our limited budget, our family members and our wonderful but human children. God has been gracious. May he also be gracious to all of you. Peace and every good thing!

Marie: I also want to second what Jennifer M wrote. Our sex life was kind of so-so in the first years of marriage (although nothing was wrong with my libido then), but as we became closer and knew each other better and became more comfortable with our bodies, we were able to sense what gave mutual pleasure. I can truly say that in middle-age our sex life is much better than when we were young and “hot.” And I feel closer to my husband through this satisfying physical expression of our love. Hope that wasn’t TMI!

Wow! I didn’t realize there were so many typos in my first post… hope it was decipherable.

@Jennifer M.: I find your comment to be HIGHLY disheartening. I climax in sync with my husband every time we become one in flesh. It is beyond obvious there is a problem and the most immediate question I have is this: “Is your husband circumcised?” Having a circumcision can have a profound impact on a man being able to pleasure his wife. Researchers in Europe have studied this extensively,  but the medical community in America has been very slow in admitting the damage circumcision creates. This was just my first thought to your comment.

How about this one.

Guilt your husband – who would never think of resorting to contraception – into NFP because you just couldn’t have another baby right now, even though you’re perfectly healthy and your husband makes a good income. (Doesn’t he realize how old you are and how many children you already have?) Then during your “fertile” times, which last at least two weeks although you are very regular, never tell your husband what a wonderful man he is to put aside his natural desires out of solicitousness for you, and never tell him you are so looking forward to Thursday night when there will be a green sticker on your chart. And when he becomes the slightest bit grumpy because of your nonchalant attitude to his sacrifice of principle and licit pleasure, tell him that he doesn’t love you and cares nothing about your physical and emotional well-being, that he just wants to use you since he otherwise ignores you when he’s not getting sex. If he says we should let God decide whether to bring a new soul into the world – a precious, unique, immortal soul destined for union with Him – laugh at him and call him a providentialist as if he’s some sort of heretic for wanting to do what married couples are supposed to do and have been doing for thousands of years. To top it off, maybe write a blog to chastise him and others like him for being such moral scoundrels.

CAUTION: Don’t consider that your husband’s objections to using NFP at this time are heart-felt and honorable, and that NFP is really permitted only when both spouses agree, and not just when you want to. And never, never read anything about the sacrament of matrimony written before Vatican II, because you might learn that your own self-fulfillment is not the primary end of marriage. DO NOT DO THIS.

Melarossa: so, a number of people have pointed out that the article is very tongue-in-cheek.  I want to say first, that if you see “rage and hatred” in Simcha’s writing, you probably have not been following her for very long.  Also, I have known to be extremely blunt with professional writers who make careless mistakes, but when I am aware that the author has nine children including an infant and once in a while makes reference to a state of near-delirious exhaustion with which I cannot claim to be remotely familiar, I guess I am inclined to pay less attention and be more forgiving.

This is fantastic. You have a gift. I’ll be coming back to this article again and again!

Yay, Christophe.  Very nicely put!

Marie said: “I get depressed sometimes hearing about the beauty of NFP and the Theology of the Body - I’ve studied them a lot, I know it’s true, why is my body suffering such a road block?” 

Because they AREN’T true.  I can’t speak anything helpful in regards to your difficulties, but PLEASE don’t look to the Christopher West Theology of the Body for answers.  His interpretations and presentations of what he thinks John Paul II said and what John Paul II meant are highly questionable.

Before you get too involved with using NFP or involved at all in TOB thought, I’d recommend reading an essay by Alice von Hildebrand:  http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=999

It’s really beautiful. Everyone could benefit. I’d also mention a book by her deceased husband, Dietrich von Hildebrand, “In Defense of Purity”.  John Paul II thought very highly of this man.  I think it is out of print, but used ones are out there.  It’s an absolute classic and pure, traditional, beautiful Catholic thought. 

God bless you.

Elizabeth

Cristophe, just make her your goddess.  Only a few degrees short of idol worship.  Maybe she has earned the right. Maybe she almost has, but your effusive, and humble admiration is all she lacks. Something tells me that a minor cosmic explosion might happen, she might treat you like a refection of God himself. (almost worship, quite stimulating) The way she shows her gratitude might take your breath away.  Pride isolates.  Humility warms the soul (and other parts).  All of the above is interchangeable for either sex.

@Why not, I get what you’re saying.  It’s not so much like your average couple is abusing NFP, but that the practice can be abusively pushed onto people.  The world is steeped in utilitarianism, it permeates most everything, to the point where one feels almost morally compelled to “control” every waking moment of life.  It’s stewardship gone wild (or willful). The reason I’m feeling this way right now is I’m a 46 year old woman preparing to marry a 59 year old man. Technically we are both still fertile so we are “required” to take an NFP class.  But…but… we’re both wide open to the slim possiblity of life! If God wants to perform an Abraham/Sarah/Boaz/Ruth/Elizabeth/Zechariah miracle then who’s to stop him!  And so, I guess because there seems to be such a zeal to offer people a holy alternative to contraceptives (which obviously is something good and necessary) it can sometimes feel like a person’s providential (some insist “reckless”)open-to-life faith is not supported.

Loved the article using NFP for 7 years 3 kids and 1 baking, lived thru working and mothering, pregnancy complications and one child having open heart at 4 months….one thing i’ve learned is that as healthy and happy as someone looks on the surface, everyone is going thru something NFP user or not, God finds ways to use health, finances, and family to teach us one simple truth ultimately He is in control.  We are all made differently and one person’s cross is another persons cakewalk, we are not called to judge, the potter is shaping us in His own good time and with His own tools.  I know couples who were blessed their entire marriage with 2 children and have always been open to life and others who contracept and have 4, I think some of the comments made by people that NFP can only be used for certain circumstances needs to think about what they are saying before they say…they dont know the intricacies of people’s lives furthermore the plans that God has for them…while not using NFP may have been a breeze for them…there may come a time in their life when they walk through something not so easy to let control of what that is, only they and God will know.

@Brianna: It is most certainly NOT the case that something is wrong with women who cannot climax from internal stimulation. MANY women only climax from external stimulation. What you say is a very, very common myth that causes a lot of women a lot of emotional pain. What pleasures a woman is primarily the result of genetic anatomical factors. Not to mention, not all men are equipped to provide enough internal stimulation to cause climax. So, Jennifer M., PLEASE DISREGARD that comment. You are very likely just one of the millions of perfectly normal, healthy women who require external stimulation for climax.

Brianna, what you say about European research is certainly true. But Israeli research would show a very different picture. See a pattern here? Europeans are staunchly anti-circumcision. Israelis, obviously, are not. Being Israeli myself (and also a researcher), I assure you that “objective,” “scientific” research is as subject to political agendas as everything else in this world, AND that circumcision does not “damage” anybody. God commanded circumcision, remember? He doesn’t demand anyone do anything that would “damage” them.

In regard to the rather heated exchange between Why Not DP and others: It took me a while to see what was going on there, but eventually it became very clear to me that Why Not DP’s comment was perceived by some of the others as a “more Catholic than thou” attack, and some of them responded defensively. I see this all the time between stay-at-home moms and working moms. Look back at those posts and you’ll see the rhetoric is very similar. My suggestion there would be: Everybody, chill out. It seemed clear enough to me (probably because I have nothing personally invested in this issue either way) that, even if what Why Not DP said might have implied the “more Catholic than thou” stance, she did not intend for that message to come across. I felt sorry for her for several scroll-downs, as she was mercilessly attacked by some people. I’m glad to see some people came to her defense after a while. But this is a Catholic site, and I was surprised to see so many people judging others so uninhibitedly…

On the other hand, I am also very proud to see so many of my fellow Catholics compassionately helping one another, praying for one another, debating with one another in civil fashion—and even reconciling after attacking one another! ;-)

Thank you @anonymous!  <3

I get that this article was meant to be sarcastic and tongue in cheek, but I really didn’t care for it. Sorry Simcha. I think non-NFP folks will use this as ammunition against NFP. In my experience, if you’ve only learned the “warm and fuzzy” aspects of NFP, you weren’t really paying attention during class. All the tongue in cheek scenarios listed above were discussed in the NFP manual, class, or both. As a matter of fact, the Creighton Method (the method I learned), has an entire chapter devoted to promoting all of the spiritual, physical, intellectual, communication, and emotional aspects of human sexuality—SPICE.

I learned and practiced NFP prior to my marriage and then taught and practiced NFP with my non-Catholic (non-religious in fact) husband. Yes, there were some issues we had, but overall it was a good tool. My health improved significantly with the use of NFP and continued to be more easily evaluated throught our use of NFP.

I also dislike that some people have insinuated that NFP is just Catholic birth control and heavily abused. It is easy to judge other people’s “just reasons” or even their method/reason for being “2 and done”. However, it is much more difficult to find and be compassionate in the truth. My husband an I probably look like a couple who is “2 and done” for no obvious reason and must have “abused” NFP.

Anyone who came to that judgement would be very wrong! My last miscarriage almost killed me (it was my 4th miscarriage & 5th pregnancy in 2 years). Then while I was pregnant for the 6th time I was diagnosed with hereditary breast cancer (BRCA1) that also put me at a very high risk for ovarian cancer. During my pregnancy I received chemotherapy. After I delivered a healthy baby girl I continued with more chemotherapy and eventually had a bilateral mastectomy, an oophorectomy, and emergency hysterectomy. Therefore, the number of natural children we can be blessed with appears to be 2. However, instead of failing at NFP by having 6 pregnancies in 2 years, we were open to life and ambivalent. After our last child until my oophorectomy, we successfully used NFP to avoid pregnancy (another pregnancy at that point could have killed me and resulted in severe problems with the baby (if it survived past 12 weeks). BTW I’m also one of those “rare” women with a higher libido than my husband. So, contrary to what it looks like (I looked perfectly healthy for most of the above), even though we are technically 2 and done, it was not our intention. So while you may say, “well you had serious medical reasons for avoiding” you would NEVER know that by just looking!

I guess my point is that this article won’t do anything IMO to further understanding of NFP. The comments don’t really further the understanding of NFP either. Hopefully I’m wrong, but I’m not sure. God bless everyone!

Perhaps (rather than focusing on timing, or mechanics, or performance) it is ultimately the realization of husband and wife that their conjugal relations have the power to transmit human life that makes those relations fulfilling.  But this realization would seem to be nullified if the couple is using their relations in such a way as to guarantee their sterility (periodic continence).
I believe that the greatest happiness that spouses can procure for each other is to make each other father and mother for a multitude of children.  Such happiness has the promise of finding its fullest expression in eternity.  This is not meant to negate earthly pleasure, but to give it a broader horizon and scope.
In other words, the perfection of the primary end of marital relations will fittingly lend itself to the perfection of the secondary ends as well.
“It is so good to introduce a little infinity and eternity into a love such as I bear you.”  -Elisabeth Leseur to her husband, Felix.

@ Dave,  sorry if I repeat, I stopped reading comments after a bit. . . My husband and I struggle in the same way.  Most of our experiences are unpleasant for me at least.  I’m just not interested.  However, my husband’s soul is important to me, even if his body is not the object of my desire.  I therefore try to make it a priority to make sure his needs are met.  I am aware of the temptations he faces daily and see it as my duty.  Not romantic, I know, but there it is.  There is something called the ‘debt of marriage.’  This should be explained to your wife, who may be endangering her own soul by putting yours at risk. 

I will remember you both in my prayers.

I wish I could agree with you, WMG. I get where you are coming from in illustrating the ideal. “Why not DP-NFP” is showing a similar illustration. I have many friends who are able to live the ideal. They say that my life has served as an inspiration to live it. I am so happy for them and thankful they are living their sacramental lives so clearly to even the most cynical onlooker. But I ask you, WMG and Why not, to fine-tune your lens just a half a turn when you look at me and my 2 children… My children are a multitude! My 2 little miracles are the result of totally and completely placing my trust in God through His gift of periodic continence! NFP is *not* an alternative to contraception. Periodic continence is an alternative to total abstinence. My health problems are so severe, that 200 years ago I wouldn’t have been called to marriage, because my health could not afford babies by just winging it. God has made his plan for our marriage very clear. HE is the one who called us to a small family. It has taken so much for us to accept that plan. If it were up to me, I have no idea if I would even still be alive. I wanted LOTS of babies. Thankfully, God has made His will absolutely clear to us. He has blessed us by making abstinence during the fertile times a way that He draws us closer to Him and to each other. For us to have relations at all, it is by placing ourselves entirely in His hands according to His Divine Providence.

@ef:

I would respectfully disagree with your impression of the Theology of the Body.  That term is NOT copyrighted by Christopher West, and Mr. West isn’t the sole instructor or author regarding it…he is simply the most well-known.  In regards to your claim that Mr. West’s interpretations are highly questionable, that is an on-going debate, not settled matter.

Thank you, Simcha! I laughed the whole way through. I am one who has had to stifle gagging sounds at NFP seminars. I find the positives are always given pride of place and the negatives are ignored.

I’m gonna throw a grenade into this discussion: I think the reason for what I mentioned above is there is a curious combination of feminist thinking combined with a puritanical and/or utilitarian view of sex afoot amongst many Catholics.  In the NFP debate it’s all too often all about children and family size. It’s as though that’s all sex is about. The toll that periodic abstinence can take is more often than not minimized. Instead we hear all the great blessings that come from this sacrifice. I’ve heard teachers extoll it like it was the 8th sacrament.

Sex is a very large part of the business of marriage, to say the least.“Grave and sufficient reasons” is not just about not having kids. It’s also about refraining from the act which sustains and nurtures a marriage.If it’s all about family size isn’t that already against generosity?  Where feminism creeps in is the fact that a man’s primary expression of love is through sex is often denigrated. Men and women are wired differently, by and large. To not give proper credence to this masculine attribute is already so pervasive in our culture. And it’s it’s very often skimmed over or ignored altogether in NFP literature.
Don’t mistake me. I think NFP is just what the Church says it is: A licit means for spacing children WHEN serious reasons exist. And I have no interest in telling anyone if I think their situation warrants its use. I just think greater emphasis should be given in marriage prep classes to understanding men and women and exploring how generosity in the marriage bed leads to a greater generosity in every aspect of marriage.

@ Marie - I wish I could find wise counsel also.  All I can offer is my own experience.  Fourteen years of marriage, intense spiritual attacks, a very fallen man & wife, being carried by Jesus when we couldn’t walk, and clinging to our faith when we can’t cling to one another…

If the roadblock you’re experiencing is physical pain during love-making and intercourse, you and your husband need to STOP.  This is not a Nike moment.  Do not “Just Do It” for his satisfaction or in an attempt to help you get used to it.  You need to find a good, sympathetic doctor.  Not a doctor who will tell you to get some lubricant and get over it.  You need someone who can help you identify if this is a medical/mechanical problem, and work out a treatment plan for your body.  If you experience pain every time you are physically intimate with your husband, you will develop a fight-or-flight fear response to his touch.  Please, don’t let that happen. 

If there is no physical/mechanical explanation, then have you ever been sexually abused?  It does not have to be physical abuse to count.  Verbal & visual sexual harassment count.  Your father and/or husband using pornography count.  If this is the root (or one of them), you will need to actively seek out wise counsel.  It may not be easy to find.  Learning 15 new slang words for the female genitalia and watching some porn with your husband is not an acceptable treatment plan.  You need someone who understands your faith and is sympathetic to your situation.  My husband and I have had two Christian counselors (one specializing in sexual abuse cases) who were helpful with ‘getting to the bottom’ of our difficulties… identifying the root causes in our histories and our own sinfulness.  They couldn’t lead us out though.  We have had real revelations (one for me was while reading from JPII’s Love & Responsibility, another took the form of a Pharaoh moth), but we still struggle on. 

Marie, there is one thing that is so important… You both have to realize that this is not ‘your problem’.  It belongs to both of you, and to God.  You’ll need to pray together, a lot… a threefold cord is hard to break.  (May I also prescribe listening to Josh Garrels’ song Bread & Wine, since I’m quoting him?  It’s available free & legal at http://joshgarrels.bandcamp.com/). 

Keep in mind, this is a time when Shattered Expectations and Wounded Pride will prowl around a young marriage like hungry lions, waiting to devour it.  You and your husband have to be on your guard.  You have to protect and love each other.  Remember, you are on the same side.

@Dave, my heart goes out to you and your wife.  Counseling, Trauma, Hormonal Imbalances, Exhaustion - all these things have been suggested to you.  May I suggest a visit, by you, to the Divine Physician Himself?  Log on to therealpresence.org.  The site will give you a list of Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration chapels in your state, if not the days and times of those offering it less frequently.  The answers and peace you seek can be found there.  I do not know how or when, but an hour or two before the Lord, on as frequent a basis as possible, in solitude and trust, will bless you beyond your imaginings.  And I just sent up a prayer to St. Joseph for you : )  God bless you!

When married couples have mismatched libidos, contraception will only make the problem worse as the lower interest partner gets no break. Furthermore, if the woman is the one with lower libido, hormonal contraception lowers it even more. If the issue is truly mismatched libidos, odds are NFP is not the problem.
.
NFP is most difficult for couples where both have high libidos. Since everyone is sharing here, that has been our issue. Self-control and learning how to love with our clothes on has been our struggle. (Providentialism would not necessarily be virtuous for us and would indeed be irresponsible and selfish given our situation. Thus my irritation at those who think this is the most virtuous way to live.) We’ve never had problems in the bedroom, but when we used contraception we never had a reason or opportunity to properly develop our relationship outside the bedroom and that suffered. Practicing NFP forces a couple develop this area of their relationship. If successful, this brings a couple closer together and you will more than “make up for it” during the infertile period. ;-) If the couple fails to do this, then NFP can indeed ruin your marriage.
.
I think people need to stop worrying about couples “abusing NFP” and help couples get the most out of their situation, whether this is TTA, TTC, or something in-between. I think the Creighton Model’s SPICE is a great idea, but it can be expanded on and improved. Couples are going to need these skills no matter how often they use NFP to avoid.

@Margaret: “The toll that periodic abstinence can take”?! Let me explain where I’m coming from on this.

In Judaism, the laws of family purity require that a couple abstain for about two weeks out of four. But, they are required to ritually abstain for precisely the opposite times as most NFP families seeking to postpone pregnancy. That is, they abstain when the woman is NOT fertile (it’s a blood thing). So, when I hear NFP families talking about how difficult NFP is, I often think, “If they knew what Jewish families HAVE to do, they might feel better about what they CHOOSE to do!”

Because Jews HAVE to do this, they’ve written a lot of books about the BENEFITS of periodic abstinence. Like Shmuley Boteach’s “Kosher Sex” or Gila Manolson’s “Outside/Inside”. Just go to Amazon and search “Jewish laws family purity” or “Jewish laws taharat hamishpacha” to find more. As you read those books, you’ll see they often mention one and the same fact: When a couple is experiencing lack of sexual desire, the FIRST thing a marriage counselor (Jewish, Catholic, or secular) will always have them do is ABSTAIN. Knowing that you CAN’T makes you WANT TO.

So, when people in here talk about their lack of sexual desire, I think, “That’s not caused by NFP—that’s something else”. And surely, when both couples aren’t 100% psyched and on board with NFP, there’s going to be strife. (As I said, Jewish families HAVE to observe the laws of abstention, so there’s not likely to be argument about that.) There IS the one difference that, when a woman is abstaining during her fertile time (like an NFP-observer trying not to get pregnant), versus her infertile times (like Jews), she doesn’t get to have sex when her body most wants to. But even so, again, I can’t help but think: “What’s the alternative? Artificial birth control that will have no end of unpleasant side effects? Another baby? I mean, which do you want MORE?” To me, NFP isn’t about “obeying” Church law (or anything else for that matter). It’s about listening to nature and not feeling horrendous for whatever reason.

I don’t mean to offend anybody, so I’m sorry if someone thinks this post is insensitive. My point is merely that how you LOOK at NFP—including considering the much-harder/-worse alternatives—is probably the #1 framer of how you FEEL about NFP. If your spouse is not on board, I totally feel for you. But if that’s the case, I think you have a deeper problem.

Someone asked earlier how to find a Catholic counselor. There is a searchable (by zip code) database of them here: http://www.catholictherapists.com/find-a-therapist.html Many of these counselors will work with anyone in the world by Skype.

May we all soon be at peace with our choices!

Dave,
I just wanted to chime in and say that we will be holding you in our prayers. What a very painful cross for both you and your wife to bear.

I admit, I’m a bit perplexed by the suggestion that married couples take their NFP decision making to spiritual direction. I am totally in favor of pastoral counsel in times of trouble, but I can’t imagine asking a priest to help my husband and I decide when is the right time to have the next baby. It seems like putting the burden of discernment on a third party. My husband takes his role as priest of our family very, very seriously, and I think he would be quite hurt if I suggested we take our charts and our hearts over to the rectory.

I wanted to slip in at the end of the discussion here, for anyone who is still following or reading, to recommend the excellent Catholic therapists, articles, surveys and webinars at:
www.maritalhealing.com.
Clicking on the tab “Marriage and Family Conflicts” will provide many resources for future reading and discernment, and hopefully, solutions!
I ask the Holy Family to lovingly hold everyone struggling or in pain who has posted here.

Ok…so I am a guy and have been all of my life, anyway.  My wife is sometimes hostile to the faith and hisses (won’t listen to how bad PP or the pill is) when I say I don’t like the pill and I won’t use a “raincoat” myself and haven’t for a LONG WHILE.  So after my 3 year old son was conceived we have not been intimate due to this.  Yes we have marital issues, I know this.  How can I be the above, in your column?  How do I exude love?  How do I tell her that some touches ARE bad even in marriage?  I am not romantic in the least.  But she as a person as a child of THE ONE who created me deserves more.  My kids deserve more.  How do I stop taking everything so defensively?  I am not looking for an out, I want to make it better for her and my kids so that someday she says hey I swear I see God and he is calling out to me.  Sorry for being overly dramatic at the end but any prayers & suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Whoever said that the divorce rate with NFP use is a CORRELATION not a CAUSATION was absolutely right.  Could it be that they are CATHOLICS who also do not take divorce so lightly??  Catholics in general have half the divorce rate of the general population AND other Christians, whether they use NFP or not.

I personally have not found it effective, and I’ve read pretty much everything there is to read on it.  So in my particular case I’ll either have to convince my husband that we can only do it 1 week out of the month (which is a MIGHTY hard sell) or we will continue to have baby after baby until I’m too old to have any more, which is a lil scary but not all in all a terrible concept.

Some of the cases related here show the real need for more discernment in choosing a spouse.  Why would a Catholic ever marry someone who supports PP?

@Why not practice DP-NFP: I would argue that most people make the best decision they can when they choose to postpone or pursue pregnancy, regardless of whether they are using contraception or NFP. I suggest looking up JPII’s talk on “masters of suspicion” in his Theology of the Body. Moreover, because using NFP is a specifically virtuous act, it will naturally help people become more in tune with what God wants in their lives, making it unnecessary to judge their intentions. Try reading Janet Smith’s new translation of Humanae Vitae - apparently “grave” or “serious” reason is more accurately translated as “just cause”. Why should you use NFP? NFP isn’t just about avoiding or conceiving, it’s a path to appreciation of the incredible gift of our bodies that God gave us.

Jennifer M, that question may have crossed many minds, but to write it out and post it seems…just…callous, I guess?  What I mean is, you may have a point, but then what? for this man, this husband and father in pain?

Good piece, and a necessary antidote to the happy-clappy, “it’s a floor cleaner and a dessert topping!” claims for NFP’s benefits.

What’s disheartening about NFP discussions is that there’s always someone who feels the need to weigh in to “fraternally correct” perceived bad motives for use of it. Despite the fact Pius XII was pretty generous in avoiding presumption of bad motives himself.

When we’re at more than a microscopic fraction of *Mass-attending* Catholics who avoid ABC, then I’ll see the need for fraternal correction. How about, say, 10%?

Until then, stop swinging the oars at people trying to climb into the lifeboat.

@Deanna: Thanks but I’ve already read the encyclicals.  AND FYI, I already appreciate the incredible gift of our bodies that God gave us….minus NFP.  Thanks for your thoughtfulness though.

EVERYONE else:  I want to add one more thing, since everyone is missing my point here and being judgmental of me by my comments….all I wanted to say was that as Catholics WE DO NOT HAVE TO use NFP.  Period, the end.  I just wanted to point out that everyone automatically thinks that if you are Catholic you HAVE to use some sort of natural family planning.  You don’t.  That was my one and only point. 

I don’t judge others for having one, two, three or fifteen children.  At all.  Everyone’s assumption that that was what I was saying is not reading what I wrote above.  This is not about how many kids God has graced you with but instead I wanted to point out that you DO NOT have to use NFP at all.  There are MANY Catholic families that do rely on God’s divine will for family planning and NOT ALL of them have a 10 children.  That was the only point I was trying to make.

Thanks for all the concerns and suggestions though and all the nice comments of support.  For those that have been uncharitable towards me, God bless you!  Maybe you should re-read your comments and apply them to yourselves. 

Blessings to all.

@Erika:  I commend you for your love of life!  God bless you!

I realized that it would likely be seen that way, but i posted it for the unmarried reading this.  Many of the problems posted here by Dave, Michael,  and others, may very well be unsolvable because of the person they chose to marry.  That is a warning that needs to be put out there for those discerning marriage.  Love can’t conquer all, and in some cases, as we’ve seen here, these profound incompatibilities can turn into disdain, disrespect, even hatred.  Because honestly, that is how some of these suffering spouses are being treated.

Compare:

Posted by Why not practice DP-NFP? on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 9:31 AM (EST)...I don’t judge others for having one, two, three or fifteen children.  At all.

With:

Posted by Why not practice DP-NFP? on Tuesday, May 1, 2012 12:18 PM (EST):@ Me, then YOU have a reason.  I’m not projecting my own version of NFP on anyone, I sincerely asked a question.  Like usual, I’m probably seen as “judgmental” when someone questions a practice that is clearly being abused by many people, you know the ones that have two and are “done”...

Perhaps this is why people reacted badly to your fraternal correction.

@DP-NFP: Just want to let you know that there are people out there who agree with you ;). My parents had 8 children, never used or learned NFP, and looking back on the struggles in their life together I can certainly see what most would consider to be just reasons! But they had and have radical trust in God’s providence, and guess what? Against the odds, we always had a solid roof over our heads, good food, clothing, schooling, and loving, happy parents who never relied on government aid. My husband and I have followed their example, and with God’s grace will have the strength to continue following it. I look at it as what Josemaria Escriva talked about in life - a radical, seemingly foolish surrender. People always immediately assume, when we mention providentialism in this area of life, that they are being judged. Why? We’re not saying that we’re holier than they are. Far from it. Holiness isn’t based in one action, but in all actions and intentions taken together. There are always examples of couples who *need* to avoid pregnancy for health reasons, etc., that are brought up as objections - but every rule has exceptions! NFP use has become the rule, when it should be the exception. Has the sacrament of marriage really changed so radically in the last 60 years, that not using NFP is somehow suddenly sinfully irresponsible?

NFP use has become the rule, when it should be the exception. Has the sacrament of marriage really changed so radically in the last 60 years, that not using NFP is somehow suddenly sinfully irresponsible?

No, artificial birth control has become the rule. Providentialism and NFP are vanishingly small exceptions in modern Catholic life. Which is a shame, as both are commendable, depending on one’s station in life.

But, by all means, let’s have NFP users and providentialists engage in fratricidal conflict.

Nothing changes the culture quite like a circular firing squad and vying for victimhood status.

Jennifer M - Yes!  The longer version of your thought works better. You specify the audience: unmarried people reading along.  I agree. When it sounded like you were replying specifically to Michael’s post, I winced on his behalf.

To your point, and to the unmarried folks reading, I’ll add:  I was the most incredibly amazing theoretical spouse & the most knowledgeable “expert” with the theory of NFP…and then I got married!

@ JenniferM—I agree about discernment, and it is a good warning. But also remember that what you think when you get married is not always what you will think later.  Your spouse (like mine) might agree to get on board with NFP, and raising the kids Catholic, but then change his mind 6 years and three kids in.

Discernment, yes.  But people can take on all manner of illness and evils at any time, even the kindest ones, even the ones going to Church and the Sacraments.

We have to pray very hard for each other!

“Fratricidal conflict”? do you also use this term to refer to those who encourage their fellow Catholics to attend daily Mass if possible, and frequent confession, when there are many Catholics who don’t go at all and we should be focusing our efforts on them? Should we not be focusing on both? I would have you know that I have several married Catholic friends who use BC, and I often talk about the benefits of NFP and answer their questions about it, even though I do not use it myself. I would regard it as a great victory for Christ if these couples switched to NFP. I freely admit that NFP can certainly be a life-changer and has myriad benefits for couples, but it seems to me that its “life-changing” status is derived mainly from the fact that most who begin using it had previously been using some illicit method of birth control. Of course NFP will be a life changer for them - but not simply because they’re using the method, but because their attitude has changed to the point where they find NFP acceptable! On the other hand, I have had “providentialist” (although I do not like this practice of putting faithful Catholics into “camps”) friends who needed to begin using NFP to postpone, and it was very little more than a hardship. They were faithful and devoted Catholics already, using NFP methods was not necessary to their salvation or happiness as a couple. I resent being called irresponsible for not charting, as Jim suggested. If NFP is neutral, why is not using it wrong?

Thank you, anonymous, for your reply re: female sexual response.  This is something rarely spoken about in Catholic conversations about sexuality.  You will almost always hear something like “…as long as climax happens with the penis in the vagina…”  And it’s never explained that this is the POV of the MALE orgasm.  There is a piece of physiological information that is rarely discussed:  If form and function matter, if there is a natural meaning behind the existence of a thing, then it matters that the clitoris can do one thing and one thing only, and that is to allow a female sexual pleasure.  It was not designed to be internal; as a result, most women do not climax every time she has intercourse.  So when topics like Catholic sexuality are discussed, esp. regarding manual and oral sex, please revise the standard line.  Manual and/or oral stimulation are perfectly allowable in Catholic marriages, during and within lovemaking.  Not to completion for a male but yes, to completion for a female.  For most women i know, this is a game-changer, for the better.

@Deanna:
“Moreover, because using NFP is a specifically virtuous act, it will naturally help people become more in tune with what God wants in their lives, making it unnecessary to judge their intentions.”

That’s not correct. NFP is not a virtuous act in and of itself. It is morally neutral. It may be virtuous and it may be selfish. Completely depends on the reasons.

“NFP isn’t just about avoiding or conceiving, it’s a path to appreciation of the incredible gift of our bodies that God gave us.”
It can be but that is NOT a reason to practice it. Sex is a path to appreciation of the incredible gift of our bodies that God gave us. It’s also necessary for marriage. NFP is not. Let’s not elevate it to something it isn’t.

@DP-NFP: “as Catholics WE DO NOT HAVE TO use NFP.” Each person must decide, given their circumstances and listening to their heart, whether to use NFP or not. Only you can know what you should be doing - I would not presume to question your decision. “you know the ones that have two and are “done”...” I would be very hesitant to make that statement. The emotions around having children are very strong and people rarely tell their real reasons, sometimes it seems they might not even know them. I have frequently found that the flippant “I’m done at two” attitude hides deep and difficult problems - in relationships, in their financial situations, in pain over miscarriages or infertility - and that it can take years of listening before people want to share. @MC - Certainly there are couples who have no need of help in planning or spacing their children. Drs. John and Evelyn Billings themselves did not use NFP to have their nine children. I must point out though, that NFP is a part of God’s providence, and it for the couples who practice NFP it’s use is “radical surrender” to the will of God. @Dale Price - Good point about contraception - I would argue that it suggests that the majority of couples need NFP.

Thank you, MC.  I’ve been very blessed in knowing many families like the one you grew up with.  AND I thank God everyday for my blind Faith…Jesus, I trust in you wholeheartedly.  That doesn’t make me sinless, btw, I am a sinner which is why I need Jesus!  and His Holy Catholic Church in my life!

@ Jennifer M:  Dave strikes me as equally yoked in faith with his wife, and if Michael isn’t at this time, it doesn’t mean they weren’t when they married.  My husband and I are equally yoked.  We (and our premarital counselors and friends) saw none of this coming.  We had no “profound incompatibilities” when we married, and from what’s been shared here, I see no evidence of them in any of the other Strugglers’ testimonies.  People fall away from faith; people return to faith.  Who are you to heap coals on our heads, to tell us we chose the wrong spouse, and if we’d only used better judgement before we went to the altar, we would all have strife-free marriages? 
-
You say:  “Love can’t conquer all.”  I say:  “Is that what you see on the Cross?”
-
May I refer your Present- and Future-Self to this lovely little article by our gracious and articulate hostess?  http://www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/nfp-providentialism-and-future-you/

The most important thing to remember is that your marriage is about your vows, not about the marital act. Better or worse, folks, and the worse can get pretty bad. If a couple can’t handle a few days of abstaining by choice, I feel sorry for you when things get really bad—cancer, for instance—and you’re facing one, two years of abstaining, maybe more and you have no choice. NFP is far less about child spacing and far, far more about what love and honor are really about.

@Margaret: I would like to direct you to the following article on NFP and its effect on virtue: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/nfp_serious_motives.htm. I must respectfully disagree with you. NFP is not morally neutral, it is morally good and this does not depend on the motivations of the person using it. This assertion is supported both by Church teaching, by the anecdotal experience of NFP users, by the divorce statistics of NFP couples, and by research by NFP experts. “With the increased use of NFP in recent decades the Church has discovered that the informed practice of NFP actually builds virtue. In other words, couples who have used NFP become unselfish by using NFP properly. Thus, the Church has learned that if authentic virtue is weak or absent at the beginning, using NFP properly instills it!”

@Deanna:
“I must point out though, that NFP is a part of God’s providence, and it for the couples who practice NFP it’s use is “radical surrender” to the will of God.”

The first part of your statement is true. As for the second half, how can you possibly say that all those who use it are radically surrendering to God? That means there can never be abuse of NFP and it can never be done for selfish reasons. Simply untrue.

You are my favorite…love your writing.

No @Deanna, the ones I was commenting on in that sentence do not have more than two because they want to go to Disney every year, have the latests model cars and SUVs, live in MacMansions they can’t afford and do not want more children because they would burden their lifestyle.  I lived in Miami once…knew TONS of people like that…then again they are probably sterile by now :(

AGAIN, you missed my point.  You DO NOT HAVE TO use NFP to be a good Catholic.  Period.

@Deanna:
Can NFP ever be used for selfish and immoral reasons?

“Fratricidal conflict”? do you also use this term to refer to those who encourage their fellow Catholics to attend daily Mass if possible, and frequent confession

Besides this topic and the one you describe, that’s the only time I ever use that phrase. I don’t even use it when describing the Civil War.

/eyeroll off

I’m sure you weren’t trying to prove my point, but I’ve never had someone I agree with so determined to not be on the same page.

No, I don’t believe the two problems (ABC v. NFP misuse) are of the same gravity. Not. Even. Close. For starters, many popular forms of ABC are abortifacient. Additionally, I think the war over the HHS Mandate demonstrates the difference between the comparative gravity as well as anything I can say.

So I don’t agree that both should be focused on to the same degree. And I really, really think approaches like DP-NFP’s, which go over the line and presume abuse (despite his/her desperate backpedalling at the end) are fratricidal—wounding one’s brother and sister for the sake of…I have no idea. It certainly doesn’t advance one’s cause very well, that is for certain.

NFPers and providentialists need to give each other space, assume the best in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and witness to the graces that flow from openness to life to a world—and too many Church members—who are actively hostile to it.

@Margaret: Our intentions come from our heart and are not the same thing as our actions. The NFP couple is as capable of being selfish as the “providence” couple.

@Deanna:
That doesn’t quite answer the question. In NFP intentions matter. One’s reasons for practicing it matter. Period.

Everyone is capable of being selfish for a host of reasons. Your claim is that NFP is an intrinsically virtuous act. I’m saying that is theologically incorrect. An act which can be used for good or ill is can not be said to be intrinsically virtuous.

And that is a big problem with how many teach it. I understand the necessity for highlighting its many benefits to a culture steeped in the contraceptive mentality. There’s no question that from that standpoint NFP brings couples closer to the truth of Natural Law and God’s plan for each of us. It leads those who have embraced artificial contraception closer to God. But in and of itself, it is not automatically a virtuous act. The same contraceptive mentality can be employed when using it as when one uses ABC. When that’s true it’s a less serious sin because one is still respecting God’s order of things by not separating the unitive and creative aspects of conjugal love. But it in those instances, it is still a sin.

@Dale Price “desperate backpedalling” ?? Sounds to me like you don’t take your own lofty advice.  Sort of funny.

@Deanna: when we talk about NFP, the “act” we are talking about is basically abstinence, which is the same thing whether periodic or prolonged. It can be virtuous if you are unmarried, and sinful if you are using it as a weapon against your spouse (I picked two examples on clear ends of the scale - obviously there are in-betweens, hence NFP). Abstinence itself is morally neutral.

@Dale Price: I’m really not sure what to say. You say we should assume the best intentions of others and not attack people on the same side, and then you fail to do both with either me or DP-NFP. I assume the best intentions of others when I encourage Mass attendance, too - never assume that other people are being sinful unless their act is open and scandalous, and even then never assume them to be in mortal sin. I assumed this was a given for faithful Catholics.

@Margaret: NFP cannot be used to cause evil. It respects the fertility of the couple, and the laws of God. Its components are: knowledge (morally good) and continence (also morally good). Even if the couple is selfish, the end result of NFP is still good because it respects the unitively procreative meaning of the marital act. Our intentions for using NFP matter in the same way that our intentions matter when ‘use providence’. For example, a couple may choose to ‘use providence’ when they find continence too difficult. I’m dubious that this is likely, just as I am dubious that a couple will go to the trouble of abstaining if they don’t have a good reason.

Did you see the quotes in question, Anna Lisa?

@Dale:  the only person that should be wounded are those that ARE abusing NFP.  And if you are wounded by my words when called on because of abuse, so be it.  We must be wounded and broken to find truth and heal.  Abuse is abuse no matter what mr. and mrs. joe schmo thinks.  Period.  Oh and I didn’t pedal back I was correcting everyone’s assumption of me.  But you go right ahead and keep on keeping.

@Deanna: Actually, there are many non-religious couples who use NFP for “green” reasons, or for health reasons. These couples may abort if NFP “fails”. In this case, they are using NFP as a tool to control and plan their lives, with no trust in any kind of higher power. The “sex-without-consequences” mentality can prevail even when the means used are “natural”. It can also be used as a weapon (i.e. the wife knows her husband wants a baby, but she doesn’t, so she uses her knowledge to prevent conception). Knowledge isn’t good for its own sake (there are many things we prevent our children from knowing, because the knowledge would be detrimental), and continence isn’t the same as abstinence.

@Jennifer M: I see you point about discernment before marriage, but I don’t think we should protect singles from seeing how very, very difficult married life can be. You and your spouse may be stellar Catholics at the start of your marriage, and as such, will be perfect targets for the devil. All of us are weak, all of us fall. It is only the love of God which can overcome and transform our brokenness.

@Hope,
I am so sorry for your pain and will be praying hard for you and your husband.

Fratricidal?  Really?
.
Maybe I haven’t read the thread thoroughly enough, which I will go back and do despite the laundry and dishes—
.
If some guy out there has the Teutonic urge to utterly dominate his wife, and makes NFP a science to get his way so that A. B. and C. line up with his plans in life, in perhaps a truly pharisaical manner and never even discusses the needs of his wife as he expounds on this, calls others “incompetent” and “irresponsible” for their choices to bring children into this world, HE is going to be suspect in my book…FRATRICIDAL?  Why even use that word.  That’s petty drama.

You say we should assume the best intentions of others and not attack people on the same side, and then you fail to do both with either me or DP-NFP. I assume the best intentions of others when I encourage Mass attendance, too - never assume that other people are being sinful unless their act is open and scandalous, and even then never assume them to be in mortal sin. I assumed this was a given for faithful Catholics.

Time to add Motrin to the grocery list.

Where did I attack you? No, really? Calling providentialism “commendable” is an attack these days? My initial response was directed to your claim that NFP is the presumed default position amongst Catholics these days. Manifestly, it is not. From that, you derive an attack?

Make that extra-strength Motrin.

And I only “attacked” DF-NFP if by “attack” you mean “quoted.” He/she now claims not to judge the number of kids one has—but yesterday, was judging the number of kids one has—and did so again at 10:56am today. Some might see those claims as incompatible, but you regard that as an “attack.” I’m sorry you feel that way.

Back to main point, which is that ABC is a much more serious problem in the Church than anecdotal experiences of NFP couples with two kids who go to Disneyland. The latter, even if correctly perceived and with the viewer in possession of all of the relevant evidence from the couple in question, is a much lesser problem than, say, widespread use of abortifacient birth control methods by Catholics. I’d hoped that that would be an uncontroversial point of agreement, but it appears, very tragically, that it is not.

By all means, let’s keep fighting each other.

@MC: It’s my understanding that when the Rhythm method was first discovered there was a great concern that is would be used as a sort of ‘natural contraception’ in much the way that you have described. However, the evidence and research does not bear out these fears. Kevin Hume has found that the use of NFP ‘stabilizes genitally unstable relationships’. By that he means that unmarried couples either marry (about 80% I believe) or break up very quickly after starting NFP. There is also an excellent article on EWTN that summarizes the experience within the church with NFP over the last 50 years. In the case of the woman who doesn’t want to have a child, I think it is very important that the woman be the primary voice in when to seek conception. (Eg. God asked Mary, he announced to Joseph) It would be far worse for the husband to force her to become pregnant, and so I think your example is a red herring.  Here is the link to the EWTN article: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/nfp_serious_motives.htm.

@Dale Okay, I really need to read the thread better.  I think there has been some confusion and misunderstanding since the last thread on NFP.  Name calling should have no place here regardless.

Posted by Why not practice DP-NFP? on Wednesday, May 2, 2012 11:22 AM (EST):@Dale:  the only person that should be wounded are those that ARE abusing NFP.  And if you are wounded by my words when called on because of abuse, so be it.  We must be wounded and broken to find truth and heal.  Abuse is abuse no matter what mr. and mrs. joe schmo thinks.  Period.  Oh and I didn’t pedal back I was correcting everyone’s assumption of me.  But you go right ahead and keep on keeping.

I know it stinks when you contradict yourself and get called on it (“I don’t judge your motives or the number of kids you have—unless I choose to”).

The judgment of anonymous censorial types doesn’t wound me. If your opinion mattered, I’d tell you how many kids we have, how many miscarriages we’d suffered, our living condition and financial status, like some others have. But, I’m not, because I don’t need your “Hey, your reasons are OK” benediction. It’s sad that others do, but people struggling to live according to the Church’s teaching often feel the need to justify themselves to those who should be more supportive, which tells you a lot about the state of the Church today.

You might want to reconsider your actions on this thread yourself, but you seem pretty sure of yourself, so I’ll leave it at that.

@Dale Okay, I really need to read the thread better.  I think there has been some confusion and misunderstanding since the last thread on NFP.  Name calling should have no place here regardless.

I say this with the utmost sincerity: Please do. And please call me on it if I’m wrong. It happens a lot, as my confessor would tell you but for the Seal. All I ask is that you quote me accurately in the process. This gets more and more depressing as it goes, so I’ll leave it at that. But will be happy to respond to quotes.

@Deanna: thanks for reposting that EWTN link; it wasn’t working earlier. I tried the link b/c I wanted to see what had been said that could have given you this misinformation.  Please understand, I’m not bickering with you; it’s just that what I’ve read from your posts (“NFP is morally good”) is like reading, “The grass is paisley colored” to me.

I looked and looked, but nowhere does the good priest say that “NFP is morally good.” Here’s some of what he does say:

“...NFP is the study and knowledge of the bodily powers through which we bodily express conjugal love. NFP, therefore, reveals the dignity of both spouses to one another. In revealing this awesome dignity, it fosters love as well as a deep and abiding respect in each spouse for himself or herself and for the other. It also builds an unbelievable longing to share the infinite goods of human life with others, i.e., with children. NFP then builds a respect for human life. With this respect in place through the use of NFP, any decision by a couple to try to achieve a pregnancy or to avoid will be made for a good reason. It is not that serious reasons are not necessary—they are. But, a couple practicing NFP after taking the classes and knowing the method, practicing their faith attending Church and receiving the sacraments, with an active prayer life, and conscientious about the religious education of their children, will, if they decide to avoid a pregnancy, have serious reasons. This is what was meant by saying that virtue results from using NFP. It should also be noted that NFP couples generally discuss whether or not to try to achieve a pregnancy every single month. This re-examination also builds a respect for life…”

NFP is information. When that information is applied to actions, it is a technique. Totally morally neutral. 

Contraception (other than use of the pill for medical conditions) *is* morally, inherently, intrisically evil.
IVF *is* morally, inherently, intrinsically evil. One is used to prevent pregnancy, one to acheive.

Try this: Hysterectomy?  Morally neutral procedure. 
Hysterectomy in order to remove cancer-ridden uterus? Morally good use of procedure. 
Hysterectomy so that you don’t get pregnant? Morally bad use of procedure.

I know we’re splitting hairs, here & we’re on the same team, but like I said, your statement just did not compute.

I take it there must be some animosity and defensiveness left from a previous thread that I wasn’t a part of, so I’m going to back away slowly with my hands in the air now…

@StephC: You are correct that Fr. Hogan does not specifically say “NFP is morally good”. I would like to pull out a few quotes that support the innate and natural goodness of NFP to illustrate what I mean: “Since true, authentic love is THE most God-like act possible for human beings (because it is the most God-like act), and since the body has the possibility of expressing this love, the study of those powers of the body through which we can express an intimate self-giving love will reveal more about the person and even about God than the study of other aspects of the human body.” NFP is a on a different order than a medical procedure. “NFP, therefore, reveals the dignity of both spouses to one another…anything which leads to a greater appreciation of the dignity and value of human beings fosters love.” NFP fosters love only because it is good itself. Like sex, and the human body, and not like an tonsilectomy. “What happens is that the general attitude of these couples to avoid a pregnancy is contradicted by the specific attitude of each marital act which is open to life. Eventually the specific attitude changes the general attitude and couples often surprise themselves by giving life to more children than they ever thought possible.” This one is perhaps the most specific. In each and every marital act done with NFP, the ‘specific attitude of each marital act’ is open to life. This attitude or orientation will change the person’s overall attitude to children, often increasing the number of children they are willing to have. This is what I mean when I say that NFP tends to ‘cure’ the problem of selfish attitudes. Morally neutral acts don’t bring good on their own. Your hysterectomy example - yes, they will not bring about good by imposing them willy nilly. As a counter example, children are good, and they bring about good just by existing. NFP brings good to the people who learn it or use it, evidencing that NFP is good. Morally good too. A ‘specifically virtuous act’ in the words of Fr. Hogan.

@Dale:  No sir, you are incorrect.  I don’t use NFP so I have five kids to worry about now…enjoy your argument with whatever it is that you think I said…I’m unsubscribing to this thread as it is a dog chasing it’s own tail.  The reason the Church is in the mess it is….people who don’t like to be corrected.  Please by all means point fingers at me for calling out the truth of the ABUSE in NFP.  Anyway…have a good one and God bless you.

@Deanna: actually, it is literally impossible for an act to be deemed “virtuous” unless it is backed by virtuous intent. So no, NFP is not intrinsically virtuous. The best we can say is that it brings us into serious contact with true “natural order”, and order is good. Thus, learning “how things truly work” is beneficial in many ways, just as learning how to nourish ourselves properly can lead to many good effects beyond the simple intention of bodily health. Perhaps the use of NFP tends naturally to *become* virtuous, but an act cannot be virtuous without intent.

@MC: I’ll try to find that quote from Fr. Hogan saying NFP is specifically virtuous. For now I’d like to ask you a question. If an act can be intrinsically evil (like contraception, the act, not the method), regardless of intention, then can there not be acts that are intrinsically good, regardless of intention? And would it not make logical sense that the opposite of an intrinsic evil (like contraception) would be an intrinsic good?

I’m arguing with what you actually said. You know, the quoted sections of your comments you never disputed.

If you don’t want to own your words—your contradictions—so be it.

“The reason the Church is in the mess it is….people who don’t like to be corrected.”

Truer, and more ironic, words were never spoken on this thread.

Unbelieveable!  Would you please leave me alone.  I shall summarize what I have said and to be clear I will pose it in Q & A format:

1.  NFP has been abused by many.  True or false?  My answer:  TRUE0
2.  The number of children doesn’t dictate the use or abuse of NFP.  True or False?  My answer: FALSE
3.  All Catholics that do not use NFP and instead rely on God have tons of kids (more than 5).  True or False?  My answer:  FALSE
4.  Do I think that Dale Price needs to go to Confession for False Fraternal Correction?  True or False?  My answer: True (you have worked completely on ASSumptions of me which I attempted to clarify but was called a liar!)

God help you!

@Deanna, I think that his whole discussion hinges on this key sentence, though:
“...With this respect in place through the use of NFP, any decision by a couple to try to achieve a pregnancy or to avoid will be made for a good reason…”
And that’s where perhaps an overenthusiastic reading of his discussion would lead to your conclusion?  I get it, I’m on board with what *he* is saying, but I do not come away thinking that Fr.Hogan would call NFP “morally good.” (Why not ask him, btw?)

It’s dawning on me that maybe we are getting tangled up in terminology: moral, amoral, moral value, a moral good, morally good, etc. I gotta pick up kids soon, so I can’t start down that road! :)
Perhaps this article would help, though.  There’s specific use of the NFP/contraception example about halfway down:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=996

Gotta go. God bless!  Thanks, this has been kinda fun, dusting the cobwebs from this ole mommy brain!

Why Not, in case you are still reading this thread: your comment about those people who have only two children did wound me, and not because I am misusing NFP. I’m human, and so of course my feelings get hurt when people think something bad about me, even if it is not true.  I have very serious reasons for only having two children, and it bothers me greatly to think that there are people who look at the size of my family and think I am being selfish. 

As for the people who only have two kids so they can live lavishly—how do you know this is true?  Is that what they said?  Has it occurred to you that they gave you this reason because they are too ashamed or sad or private to tell you about their marital, health, or fertility struggles?

Calling me a liar is a bad, bad way to get me to leave you alone.

You don’t own your statements. The “two kids and done” NFP Disneylanders is a judgment on the number of kids. Period. Because I doubt you are privy to the innermost thoughts of the couple you are judging, much less to their trips to the confessional, nor their medical records.

So, you do judge by the number of kids. If they had five and did the same thing, would you really be as exercised? Sorry you don’t like being called on it.

I don’t care about the number of kids you have, as I said providentialism is commendable. But being an anonymous judgmental censor who feels the need to hit us with “fraternal correction” is not. Drop that shtick and we’ll probably get along fine.

Tired of User Names:

You have my deepest sympathies and prayers. It was because of people like you and your spouse that I felt the need to swat down the glib “fraternal correction.” May God bless you and carry you through your struggles.

@Deanna: good question. You will notice that when you said “contraception”, you specified “the act, not the method”. I believe this is exactly the crux of the matter: sinful contraception lies in intent. A woman can arguably be on hormonal therapies which render her sterile, and it is in fact a good thing if they are treating a medical issue that cannot otherwise be addressed. The hormonal therapy itself is “morally neutral”. Let’s take eating as another example (because I’m hungry, lol). Eating is naturally good. It is the way in which we nourish our bodies, and it promotes life. Eating, simply speaking, is not virtuous - I can eat and then throw up (like contraception, thwarting its purpose), or more benignly, take childish disobedience: I am a teenager, I’m legitimately hungry, there are two equally healthy options in the fridge. I deliberately take the one my mom told me specifically not to touch, just because I’m angry with her. Eating in this case is sinful, even though I’m doing everything “right” regarding the act.
Eating becomes virtuous when we learn about nutrition, buy and prepare the healthiest foods we can afford, all for the good of our families and for the glory of God. The virtue lies in intent. I do believe that growing closer to nature (in the case of sex to a greater extent than in the case of food) can draw us to virtue. In this way, I would call NFP a good thing for couples who use it rather than contraception for “green” reasons. It’s a step in the right direction, and NFP has the potential to become virtuous whereas contraception does not.

@StephC: Lol, I feel the same way about the brain, and thanks for your input! I would love to ask Fr. Hogan, but he passed away some time ago. As for terminology, that may be the case. I don’t suggest that all couples always have good reasons for using NFP, although I do suggest that the use of NFP encourages good reasons. Objects are universally good (though not necessarily possessing a moral character) because God made them. On the question of virtue: A person probably cannot be virtuous without good intent, however an act can be good or bad (or maybe neutral, though I have a hard time thinking of an example).  An example would be someone who gives to charity for public recognition. His intention is selfish, the act is good, and it’s reasonably likely that if he continues to give to charity he will become a better person. Probably wouldn’t work for everyone - eg. the person who leaves their estate to a cat charity instead of their destitute children, though who knows?. My point is that acts have a nature (evil or good) and NFP is good by nature (ie. intrinsically good). Additionally using NFP will usually change people for the good. Perhaps I should add that I mean NFP in a broad sense, as the study and understanding of human fertility as applied to whatever end the person chooses for it in the context of the natural marital act.

@MC: I will quibble with one point: that the act can be virtuous (good) on its own, by its nature. The person becomes virtuous by performing an act with a good intent, or not virtuous by performing with a evil intent. If the nature of the act contradicts the intent, then the person will change. Ie. A good act with a bad intent will improve the attitude, or the person will give up the good act. A bad act with a good intent will push the person to have worse intentions, or the person will eventually realize that they need to change the action.

@StephC:  Thank you for the maritalhealing.com link.  What an excellent resource. 
-
@Elizabeth:  Thank you for the gift of prayer.

Good Lord,it’s not even noon and I’m exhausted from reading so many emotionally charged posts.  MC and Deanna (heh, thank you for not using a male user name), I have also benefited from your discussion.  @Dale, yeah,whether it matters to you or not I *do* agree that we are all on the same lifeboat and I think you could have been kinder.  I think we all have an “inner jerk”, but it’s better when we don’t swat (speaking as one who is known to call her own kids some colorful things when they are jerks or slobs) Maybe I’m blind, but I didn’t think “Why not use DpNFP” should have been attacked—And hey, no significant trolls out there, making us even more upset.  Yay.

Having these discussions come into my living room is still relatively new to me—I don’t always get whom is quoting whom.  I guess people like Chesterton and Lewis got to hash these things out at the pub.  Must be better with beer.

All right, anna lisa. I don’t see where I attacked DF-NFP, though I was certainly called a liar for my trouble, which itself doesn’t strike me as…helpful. Again, a quote would help me see where I went astray.

It’s just as important to note that Tired of User Names was genuinely hurt by DF-NFP (as is usually the case when someone starts weighing in on having too few children), which, frankly, merits a rebuke. Swat, whatever. Anonymous people are on a shorter tether with me, especially when they start flinging the judgments around.

@Hey Lady, I think that “topic” :0 needs to be trumpeted from a mountain top.  (Or a blog post all it’s own ;)

“quit swinging the oars when people are trying to get in the lifeboat”

Perfect!

I have never understood why the small percent of Catholics who take church teaching on sexuality seriously bicker with each other!  Living out our vocations faithfully is radical in today’s culture, and requires great courage.  Rather than being scattered by discord (sowed by the scatterer himself, no doubt), lets encourage each other!  Courage!

Dale, Many of these discussions have been enlightening to me, they have helped me to empathize a lot.  I used to stand in my pew with my big family somewhat self consciously, and wonder “How on earth, am I the only family here with more than three kids??”  I never assumed the worst (ABC) of any of them, but if you sat me down and actually made me analyze the actual “Why”, I probably would have wagered a guess based on PP’s statistic that 98% of Catholics contracept.  So it has been really great (especially since the whole HHS uproar) that this statistic has been dismantled. Reading these threads gives a real “face” to ALL the couples who not only *don’t* contracept, but the sometimes agonizing struggles that they can have.  I feel instructed and enlightened. I am sincerely grateful because it not only makes me more human, but I feel honored to pray for these—my brothers and sisters. What doesn’t instruct or edify is *vitriol*.  Ever.  Or people being bullheaded with an assertion that a simple google search will prove erroneous.  “Why not DPNFP” brought up some valid points that are very worthy of examination.  Don’t you meet people who put material things before people? I don’t think she was being judgmental by asking the question.  She didn’t point a finger at anyone as far as I read (lol, or remember,as I deal with needy kids between reading) Yes, people can put *things* before people, so the “just cause” is something to be considered, as is marital harmony.  Dale, I think your tone became unnecessarily defensive—and then “Why Not” also, in turn became exasperated.

Renee,

Because it strikes a chord, and it is an important topic.  Besides, it is also easier to bicker on a blog than in real life and face to face. 

These discussions are less for the arguerers and more for anyone reading the argument.  Someone in a community might feel alone, “I’m using NFP and being judged, and am I really wrong to use NFP because the Dr. says that if I don’t for 9 months after my c-section, I could die?”  This back and forth lets them know they aren’t crazy.  Or someone might be on the fence, “Can I have relations with my spouse even if there is absolutely zero chance of getting pregnant due to the natural cycle of things?”  The answer is of course, but these debates help move people one way or the other.

Oh, and for all those critical of families with two kids (who probably have two because of medical reasons for all you know); Mary only had one kid, AND abstained from any relations for the entirety of her life.  Isn’t she the perfect example? But seriously people, if it is just about making babies, and loving life, where are my concubines?

I just want to put this “out there” for all of those who are suffering from failure of communication in your marriage.  My husband and I suffered from some of the problems some of you described in varying degrees.  We thought we were overall, a reasonably happy couple despite these problems.  Honestly?  I WISH we had focused on ourselves and our relationship *sooner*.  We were too proud to even admit there was a true problem at ALL, though the symptoms were there.  I had resigned myself to the fact that marriages can just get somewhat mediocre over the years, and had even hard this from a priest once.  How WRONG he was! With the help of prayer, complete *exposure* to the other, and counseling, (miracle of God?)we are so madly in love, it trumps all stages of honeymoon love we ever had, including when we were love smitten college students sneaking around.  We make love to each other every single day, sometimes twice, except for three days of the month.  That’s our version of abstaining.  In the beginning I thought it was just a phase.  It’s been years now.  I’m writing this to encourage others that through the HOLY SPIRIT, it can get SO MUCH BETTER.

I have read a lot of the comments, but not all (there are MANY)so forgive me if I am repeating anything!  I am reading a book called Holy Sex…. by Gregory Popcak.  At first the title threw me, and I wasn’t sure if it was something that I should be reading.  Total suggestion from the adversary, because this book is incredible.  Among so many other things it talks about sex between husband and wife as a prayer.  Through the sacrament of marriage, God gave us this gift to show in a sensual way (through our senses)the way the He intended for us to love each other and Him (may be lost in translation).  It talks about lovemaking as being something that we do all day.  NFP questions and answers are also addressed.  It covers so many things that there isn’t even room to mention here..I recommend this book to everybody in every situation.
Also, for those couples whom the woman seems to get the brunt of the fertility cross…I just met with my NFP teacher this week and she was saying that if a man charted he would have white baby stickers on every day of his chart..just a reminder.

Ah, the materialistic Catholic, so convinced that they provide for their children that they abstain because of financial hardship. Last I checked, God made children, and that He is all-knowing and perfect. So if someone all knowing and perfect decides to create life in the midst of every stupid thing we do, why do we limit him?

As a father of five children, I much better provide for them when I don’t have money then when I do. Why? Because it is in poverty that I completely empty myself and trust in the Lord. What greater gift could I give my children than that? It’s interesting that even with all their supposed faith, there are some among us that are convinced that it is their hard work or cunning that provides materially for their children. But even the dumb beasts and bugs of the world eat daily.

Fools. NFP is for arrogant cowards.

@jack (if you exist)- please read this post

http://remnantofremnant.blogspot.com/2012/03/family-size-does-not-equal-birth.html

It is about ABC but can also apply to NFP versus supposed’providentilaism’

I always worry that saying “couples may limit children for financial reasons” becomes “couples must limit children because their poverty is such a nasty nasty burden for the rest of us.” It’s been helpful for me to think of couples who have many children in spite of extreme financial need as providing a very special witness to the goodness of life and children, and to the dignity of poverty and vulnerability—a beautiful witness we should treat with the ustmost respect and support, at peril of our soul, but probably not one most people called to or capable of.

And Jack, speaking of arrogant cowards—people who tie up heavy burdens of poverty for others to carry are those, usually, who have never experienced it. Well, I have. Not being able to eat, afford electricity and water, still gives me nightmares kind of poverty. And it wasn’t a beautiful spiritual gift, it was the darkest time in my and my familiy’s life. The gift was that God in his mercy pulled us through it.
To chastise parents for seeking to take reasonable and completley licit steps to gaurd against the kind of despair and degradation (not to mention more material concerns, like malnutrition)real poverty often engenders is presumption, pride, and complacent wickedness.

Huh? What does that have to do with my post?

(‘if you exist’. What? A computer wrote what I wrote? Silliness.)

Real poverty is believing that missing a meal for a day is much worse than missing prayer for a day.

@ Jack

Father of five? Amateur.

@Mr. Simcha

Truly. I’m only 28.

Like I said Jack.

And like I agreed, Mr.Simcha. I am an amateur as compared to my Father in heaven who created the world.  So when will you be humble enough to admit you’re an amateur, too?

Hey, everybody, Jack’s MLM work from home scam doesn’t seem to be paying off, so I guess that’s why he’s touchy about money.  No excuse for being such an a-hole, Jack/Ivan, but sorry you can’t find a real job.  St. Joseph, pray for us, and for everyone who’s trying to provide for a family.

I remember when I only had 5 children.  I held somewhat similar opinions as Jack.  I ate those words, and many other such words, as God humbled me to the point of not taking it upon myself to elevate my actions above those of my neighbor.

Jack, have you ever had to pay for your child’s heart surgeon because insurance wouldn’t cover it?  Have you ever had to change the diaper of an 8 year old who really really doesn’t want his diaper changed?  Do you have a child who, at age 12, still can’t talk?  Have you ever been homeless?  Have you had a child with Tay Sach’s disease? Have you ever suffered from a major mental illness?  Have you ever made a mistake?

Perhaps instead of calling your fellow Catholics arrogant cowards, you could 1) give everyone the benefit of the doubt and 2) thank God for the blessings you have, whatever they may be.  What does it profit you to assume the worst of other people, particularly people you do not know?

I didn’t know I was supposed to make a public confession to you, Jack. Go be a creep on the Internet somewhere else. Why not try starting a multilevel marketing business?

Oh what fun! What all of your attacks on me have to do with the fact that NFP is for arrogant cowards escapes me. If you don’t believe you’re an arrogant coward, then there are better things to do than NFP.  If you think I called you an arrogant coward because said that is what NFP is for, then apparently I’m not the only amateur in the room.

So . . . you DO want me to share your website where you offer people the chance to get streams of money flowing directly to them, if they buy step two and three?  Because you’re not a materialistic American?

Not attacking you Jack.  Warning you.  Parasitical pride can not stand, and God loves you, so it will fall.  May the fall cause as little pain as is needed.  God love you.

LOL.  That should be Pharisitical.  And that is my warning to back off.  The lessons never cease.

Engaging in the mockery you’re criticizing me for. Interesting tactic.

I’ll back off. But from what? Please be clear so I don’t repeat it. Also, is the warning a harbinger of a threat? I’m sorry. I came here to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of NFP.

No, I’m not mocking you.  I’m saying that people who use NFP are in obedience to the Church.  People who cheat other out of their money are committing a serious sin.  People who let their children go hungry are committing a serious sin.  It’s very, very terrible when we realize that we’re not doing a good job of caring for our families; but the right response is to change our behavior, and to become more humble and responsible, not to accuse the rest of the world of not being holy enough.  I’m sincerely hoping that you’re actually just grandstanding when you say that you’re okay with letting your family suffer poverty, and that you’re actually working on getting a real job.

.

Sheesh, I can’t believe I managed to stay out of this whole thread, only to get sucked in at this point.  Well, just go back and read what Clare said—she did a good job.

Jack, you’re a troll.  Don’t even pretend to be here for any reason other than getting everyone up in arms.

Jack, based on your logic, why do any of us have jobs?  Shouldn’t we just sit back and wait for God to provide everything?  Oh wait, I’m pretty sure the Apostles condemned that ....

Who attacked anyone? Who cheated anyone out of money? Who let anyone’s children go hungry? I came here expecting a solid defense of NFP. What I got was personal attacks based on a misguided reading of my post. I’d definitely love to just walk away from this one considering how many threats have been levied at me. Apparently, its mired important for this group to be offended instead of objective.

Take care.

Okay, bye, Ivan.

Forgive me Jack.  I didn’t realize someone who doesn’t know the difference between then and than could be so holy and innocent.  Hey, next time you troll, avoid the term “fool.”. It is a dead giveaway and so very 2011.

Just curious about kids going hungry—Can’t poor families get food stamps?

Jack - As Catholics, we are not Providentialists.  We believe that we cooperate with God in bringing His plans to fruition.  By judging a couples’ decision to use NFP for reasons they, along with God, have deemed serious enough to warrant undertaking the trials and tribulations (as well, as joys and understandings) of the practice, then you are, in effect, failing to trust God and His ability to provide for those families. 

@anna….oh yeah, cuz the government should keep mortgaging the country to the Chinese to pay for more welfare programs.  I think it is immoral to purposely have children you know you can’t feed.

Anyhow, maybe Clare is talking about another era.  As for arrogant 20 somethings I have two of those.  They aren’t like that all the time, but they occasionally shock me with their new wine ideas. They’re pretty good kids most of the time.  When they call people fools, I always shudder because of the bible quote my Mother would menacingly deliver when people dare to use that word.  My husband calls 20-something “wisdom” brain f—ts.

OMgosh Jennifer, I’m talking about desperate cases not the welfare state…

Lol, but my mother just can’t cure my father of calling Democrats “A$$ES and fools.  He’s a libertarian Jennifer, so I was brainwashed as a child to believe there was no greater sin than welfare.

No, I’m talking about my own era.
Also, the people on welfare usually are desperate. Do you have any idea how humiliating taking charity is?
Or, they’re usually so cut off from a decent education, stable social structures, etc., that they can’t even begin to start making a new life for themselves from scratch. In neither case are we excused from responsibility for them.

The cry of the widow, orphan, and foreigner is one of the four things that cry out to heaven for vengeance. You’ll notice welfare doesn’t make it in there.

@JenniferM, you wrote that you “think it is immoral to purposely have children that you know you can’t feed”, but I can’t see what that situation (including whatever “purposely” means to you) has to do with a discussion of NFP—especially since you were responding to a question about food stamps.
.
I think it was unnecessary.  It might also give people the wrong ideas about how judgemental *you* are about having to use government assistance to feed their children.

“Jack”, calling people “arrogant cowards” and then saying you are just looking for a solid discussion and were misread is a total crock of non-integrity. To use that favored insult in blogosphere comments, it is totally disingenuous. 
.
But you already know that, don’t you?  One might even say that your superior attitude, coupled with misrepresenting yourself smacks of a kind of….arrogant cowardice?

“I resent being called irresponsible for not charting, as Jim suggested. If NFP is neutral, why is not using it wrong?”
.
There is nothing morally wrong with it and I never said there was. But it is good for your health to chart. Nevertheless, once you understand what is going on, you can’t exactly “unlearn” it, even if you aren’t actually charting. As a result, I don’t think many providentialists are quite as providential as they claim to be. They, like couples who are charting, are making choices based on information, whether they acknowledge this or not.
.
I am not about controlling or domineering anyone. (I am actually the much more laid back spouse, believe it or not.) Do what you feel you are called to do. I never said that anyone had to perfectly plan all their children. I have been fairly consistent on that point in all my posts.
.
But what I take issue with is the idea that ignorance is somehow “holier” than knowledge. And that prudence and self-control cannot be virtues. If I have misunderstood anyone on this, then I apologize.

Clare, yes, I agree with you.  It is a complicated subject though,and a problematic one, when one considers how it sometimes hurts families as well—Penalizing people for getting married…I hope that kids don’t *really* go to bed hungry anymore.

Conversely, those who chart do not necessarily perfectly plan everything. Charting couples knowingly and willingly “cheat”. A lot. And sooner or later that will lead to babies. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and that is a way couples can use NFP if they aren’t actively trying to conceive, but aren’t terribly committed to avoiding either.
.
In practice, there is little difference between a couple who “charts and cheats” and a couple who is “providentialist”, but has a reasonable idea of fertility.

(sigh)@ “Jim” Please don’t use the word “ignorance”.  Many humans have never charted a day in their life.  This doesn’t make them ignorant!  I think I charted once.  It wasn’t my thing and I don’t regret it. Learning the science behind it was good. Let many flowers bloom!  Holy is as holy does, and I’ll leave that analysis to God. I think NFP is great for those who need to use it.  It’s actually quite simple for me thanks be to God.  Sorry I misread you also.  Peace to you and yours.

lol which leads me to believe that this is a false dichotomy. :)

Hey, it got awfully quiet in here. Is everyone off having sex?

@Margaret, hilarious.  My husband is being a designated driver for our two oldest kids who are supposedly “networking” for their tech businesses at a mixer (sigh) Like babies are what *I* worry about.  Good thing sex makes everything better!

@anna lisa: Perhaps I mistook “I don’t want to go to all the trouble of charting” for “I don’t want to know what is going on with our fertility”. The first is understandable, the second inexcusable.

You know what I *love*?  Looking at the altar at mass this evening, and offering Him his Son for everyone who was hurting on this thread…Mary, Connie, Dave, Marie, Anita, Michael…all of us in our own way…

@Margaret, would that it were…. I’m at work.  As to my comment about welfare, I have no problem at all with temporary safety-net usage.  I had to use WIC for two six-month periods, and I was never more ashamed and humiliated in my life.  But I think it is wrong to have children knowing you have to depend on government,  i.e. other people’s paychecks, to feed and support them.

Don’t beat yourselves up about the infighting. Try googling “militant atheist accommodationist atheist”. You will find members of the same, rather small, proportion of the population (atheists), attacking each other in the name of sending a purer message to non-atheists.

Meanwhile all the folks who don’t think much about religion are dealing with “spiritual” problems as they arise. “Should we baptize Ethan/Olivia?” “Yes, otherwise Grandpa will have a stroke.” “I was raised Catholic, and you were raised Presbyterian. But our friends go to the Lutheran church.” “Hot damn, the Lutherans are cool with infant baptism!”

Or “I’m spiritual. I don’t need organized religion. We are free to raise our children according to our own spiritual feelings.”

Those of us who tussle on the internet are those who like to argue, hoping to influence someone who is following the thread. C’mon, let’s admit it, we are a self-selected group of people who are very intense about our beliefs who like to argue about it!

Finally, it is about being open to the will of God. We did the periodic abstinence, but my wife did conceive and we had a beautiful baby 1 month ago. So yes, the baby was a surprise, but never unwanted, as the mindset always needs to be one of openness to the will of God, who tends to use humans to work his miracles (read scientifically impossible conception), including creation of human life. And I would know, I am a physician.

If the practice of NFP is done without at least mentally being open to God’s will just in case he has something else planned, then one needs to revisit.

Here’s what I don’t get: there is always this *fear* that people who use NFP will “abuse it” or use it with a “contraceptive mentatity.”  Okay, right, I get that either of those scenarios are bad.  But honestly, do you all actually *know* couples (and I mean, really KNOW them and have discussed their intentions and points of view) who both use NFP AND do so with the supposed “contraceptive mentality?”  Because, I gotta tell ya, I don’t.  I’m a medical provider and an NFP instructor and have a lot of friends who use NFP and I have NEVER known anyone to “abuse NFP.”  I’m not saying they don’t exist or that it can’t happen.  I’ve just not seen it, personally.
—-
Couples who struggle with NFP, definitely.
Couples who struggle with church teaching, absolutely.
Couples who contracept and consider themselves “fully” Catholic, all the time.
But honestly, I’ve never known anyone who has practiced NFP with the sole purpose of avoiding more children just so that they can continue to use their timeshare every other month and always drive new cars.
The people I *have* known that consider children a burden and McMansions essential contracept and/or sterilize.
—
Could it be that we, as ardent supports of the Church’s teaching on the blessings of children, marriage, and sexuality are so *afraid* that we’re doing it “wrong” that we therefore project that insecurity onto others?
(**Disclaimer: again, please understand that I am not, for a single minute, suggesting that those who practice NFP automatically are free from manipulations and selfishness within marriage.  I’m merely trying to point out that so many people are so simultaneously defensive and judgmental in how they personally use NFP that it ends up isolating others.)

@Dave (if you’re still reading):
At one point my excellent husband—who sounds much like you—gave me a copy of Dr. Laura Schlessinger’s _The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands_ when I had been in a challenging place for a long time.  It helped me a great deal, and I still refer to it occasionally, and I think he’s glad.  :)  It may not work for you and your wife, but it might, so I pass on the info.  Her advice is sound—and a practicing Jew’s POV is closer to a practicing Catholic’s than most would think!
I too really dislike the abstaining during the only time of actual libido, but like Simcha’s posted before, it’s still the best of the bad options.

ANOTHER stellar post, Simcha!!  Thank you ;)  I can think of ‘several people’ that I would love to forward this to personally, but alas, charity rules ;)

As always, blessings to you,
shalimamma at lifevictorious dot com

lol cowalker, maybe I’m just in deep denial, but for me it has more to do with the fact that the jogathon is next week, I should be helping my kids harass people for donations, two of my kids need ortho appointments and I forgot to make them, a giant mob of kids just cleared out, I had a mild text war with my sister starting at 7am because her prepubescent testosterone laden 14-hear-old smashed an apple with a tennis racket at my eight-year-old, who cried like he got murdered, I over cooked the eggs, and my daughter got left behind because she cares more about her appearance than being early to school, and is standing here watching “The cat in the Hat Knows a lot” with her little sister, while eating cereal and madly texting her whipped boyfriend to come get her before her Dad yells at her…ug…the seething mess in the kitchen, first load of laundry, bed making—OR—lol, I can get into a zen moment, thank God Charlotte is no longer harassing me for her own cup of coffee, DAG NAB it!  She’s psychic—I’m not kidding you.  The second I typed it she came over and demanded *mine*...Ok—so I was saying…I’d rather read what adults have to say, and hang out a bit at the cyber watering hole, to stimulate other areas of my brain…Oh, and I also like to fool myself that maybe just maybe I’m being a little bit *good* instead of a voyeur, in sharing my war stories—and what makes better war stories than NFP and the war of the sexes!!! (sigh) The socks hardly ever get matched anymore. Happy Thursday :)  p.s. but you could actually be right a little bit right, NOT when it comes to being atheist, but the arguing part.

I think I may be guilty of a sin of ommission by letting my kids watch tv all morning so I could read all the comments. Sigh.

Is Brian Killian still reading? There’s no way to say this without sounding gossipy, but the marriage of the Open Embrace authors did not survive long after their publicly advocating a switch to barrier methods of BC during fertile times. This takes some authority away from their assertions and reasoning, I think. (They are also non-Catholic Christians) I am not exulting in their split at all, but caution against citing them as source of a successful family planning method. I also imagine that problems preexisted and extended beyond their family planning ideas.

Oh, and one last little thing—as for people who have been not “open to life” because of “selfisheness”?  Me.  My family.  All of my children.  No finger pointing.  Just inward looking.  The human condition.  We fight it and each other in little ways, (sometimes bigger)everyday. I know God forgives me for my more flawed choices, big and little. I leave it to God to sift through this.
“I came to bring a sword.” —Jesus

“I leave it to God to sift through this.”  I think that’s ultimately what each couple, individually, has to do.
@RMMT:  Agreed.  We all of us need to share the good news of openness to life, in whatever manner (providentialism or NFP) that means for each individual couple at each moment throughout their marriage.  While it might be challenging, it’s also a joyful and fruitful thing, and absolutely a more healthy (both physical and spiritual) choice than artificial birth control.

Why is there an assumption with the “DP” couples commenting here that their way is the only way to trust in God?  I seriously don’t see why they DON’T chart, charting doesn’t dictate your decisions, your will, which is hopefully in tune with God’s will, does.  Charting doesn’t DO anything to contradict God’s will.  What separates the people who claim to not chart from the animals?  Do not the animals also trust in DP, as they put it? God gave us the intellect and the will to practice self-control.  Most couples who practice DP haven’t had circumstances that have called them to abstain for REGULAR long periods of abstinence.  And if they do, they tend to be excruciatingly bitter, how is this the better example?

Before Adam and Eve’s fall, I am quite convinced, DP would have flown in regards to family planning.  But, we’re not in the Garden of Eden anymore, and our hearts and minds have to be constantly forged and reminded to be focused on God, something that staring at a fertility chart once or twice a day will do.

Do you know what a nurse said to me when I told her I use NFP?  “You’re brave.”  Because I trust in God.  All NFP users, regardless of the method, have to trust in God.  Ask any die-hard NFP user, do you trust in God?  They’ll say yes.  And most people who DON’T use NFP?  It’s because they CAN’T trust in God, or are seriously faltering, and feel they need to put matters into their own hands.

By the nature of NFP charting, if anyone wants to be selfish in their marriage, they stop using NFP, or, in addition to NFP, they also contracept during the fertile time.  NFP is great for separating the sheep from the goats in this respect.  Couples who stick it out and use NFP are generally happier because they’ve accepted the challenge to grow in virtue together.  It’s not easy, and we’re all supposed to be challenged in this way.  Those couples you see blissfully happy after using NFP?  Ask them their strategies for fortifying themselves in virtue.

Can cars be used selfishly?  Sure, but a lot are used to get us from point A to point B necessarily.  Can food be used selfishly?  Sure, but a lot of us use it to nourish our bodies.  Can education of ANYTHING be used selfishly, sure, but it can also be used SELFLESSLY.  Knowledge and practice of NFP, can it be used selfishly?  Why not?  Can it be used selflessly, in order for a couple to grow in virtue?  Absolutely—the reasons for abstaining or achieving don’t matter here, especially since NO ONE on the outside of the marriage can judge that the reasons and motivations for that.  NO ONE.  That responsibility lies solely on the couple.

The question that hasn’t been asked, then, is, can Divine Providence method of NFP be used selfishly?  YES.  What separates those couples who chalk up their family planning to chance, I mean, “trust in God”?  Is it really trust in God, or is it really trust in chance?  Are you still challenging each other to grow in virtue, if so, what virtue?  If you’ve already proven you’re well-versed in the virtue of generosity in the calling of your marriage, what about all the other wonderful virtues God wants you to be strengthened in?  How does “DP” method help you grow in the other virtues?  How does it guard against usery (using spouses for sex and as baby incubators)?  Even if you and your spouse can handle your decisions, what about your children?  It’s more than providing a roof under their heads and food on the table.  Can you ensure that every soul you brought to earth will join you in Heaven? 

Having a hard fast rule of just sex whenever you want it isn’t much different than the contraceptive mentality of sex whenever you want it.  The means are different but the usery is the same.  Using prayer and discernment on a month to month basis provides that structure that makes it VERY difficult to be selfish and to continue using NFP.  Most NFP couples who want to be selfish either become “DP” promoters, or just go to contraception.  Because trusting in Divine Providence means maintaining an incredibly holy and virtuous marriage, centered on God, not themselves, and calling into question on a regular basis, how we will best use the gift of self in our marriage, for the children we already have now in our care, and those we may have in the future.  This is exactly what NFP does—so it seems contradictory to say DP does this better, when NFP charting is in and of itself, a way of trusting in Divine Providence.

Not charting, on the other hand?  Not only is that dangerous to the children you are pregnant with, but can also be seen as just as selfish.  How can you make an informed decision when you don’t have all the information?  Charting helps a couple see the slightest health signs pointing to a larger problem.  How can you make a decision to have more kids, when, say, your luteal phase is too short to maintain a pregnancy, which will either result in miscarriage or premature birth?  (Both easily remedied as long as you know this is a problem).  How would you know this luteal phase deficiency exists when your cycle stays a consistent 28 days, but instead of ovulating around day 14, you really ovulate around day 21, signaling serious hormonal irregularities which put your unborn children at risk?  Children deserve better than that.  The knowledge is out there, so just like knowledge of using nutrition to care for the bodies God gave us, so we should use charting to care for the bodies God gave us.  I remember remarking once, “Too bad that men don’t have the equivalent of fertility charting that could help them point out early health complications so they can be remedied or healed sooner.”  Women are so blessed with this gift! And good luck relying on God when you don’t chart when it comes to estimating due date.  Does God tell you your due date in a dream?  Or do you just rely on the doctor’s say-so and ultrasound?  So many doctors are so inducement happy, NFP knowledge really helps, for both the baby and the mom’s sake to have the most accurate due date—something you can’t have if you don’t chart.  And “viability”?  What if you give birth at 24 weeks gestation, when the baby should receive care, only, according to the date of your last period, your baby is only “22 weeks”, therefore, the doctors leave your baby to die, instead of giving him/her medical attention.  These are serious issues that can’t be ignored, and for those circumstance, it is worth EVERYONE charting.  It is our responsiblity—God has allowed the technology and the information to come up.  Should we ignore all the research and not educate ourselves on nutrition?  Should we ignore all the research that comes up on any other facet of our lives because, we, as fallen human beings, might be selfish in our use of it? 

The problem of selfishness isn’t in the externals, but in the heart.  The people who describe DP here, it seems, lack a ton of trust, trust in divine mercy.

PS.  All DP-ers.  It has come to my attention that MONEY can be used selfishly, and earning an income and educating yourself to further your profession is a mistrust in God to provide for you, and instead trusting only in yourself.  Quick, to remedy this, please sign over all paychecks to—-

@Jennifer M.  :(  That is so mean, and makes me so sad.  I can’t quite get the words.  I can’t imagine anyone purposely having hoards of kids for the food stamps.  Because here we are with 5 kids and on food stamps and it is not easy.  I’ve had to learn to hold my head high at the grocery store.  We certainly didn’t mean for it to be this way.  Turning this back to discussion, our family is this way from leaving it to God and some bad NFP….  I don’t know.  Low blow.  One I live with daily as I struggle with how to proceed.  We can’t afford more kids, but we do love the ones we have.  God bless.

@Betty, I am with you….It is hard to know what it would mean to deliberately have your children “knowing you couldn’t feed them.”  Nobody sets out to create children if they genuinely *can’t* feed them, most people try not to, in their own way, whatever it is, but then sometimes children come along anyway.
People have to use food stamps for so many reasons…some of them weren’t true when the kids were all born but they are true now (lost job, for example.)

@ Betty, solidarity.  Thank you for putting a face on it.  Your children are unrepeatable treasures.  God Bless all of you.

So, “DP or Chance”, all I really got from your rant - which appears to be based on a willful and total misread of almost everything said on here about Divine Providence - is that you assume (scratch that, you KNOW, dangnabbit) that couples who don’t take on the extra and unnecessary (for them) struggle of charting are lazy and selfish, don’t really love their children, and use each other for sex. And that long periods of abstinence necessarily make them hateful and bitter. Oh, and they’re irresponsible because people can’t know anything about their fertility or health without charting. Man, I have no idea how marriages and families ever survived until 40 years ago!

And you call them judgmental.

Did you all miss the part of my post where I said I have no problem with temporary safety-net usage of government aid?  Losing a job falls under that.  But tons of people have kids knowing they will rely on government to feed them from the beginning, and always.  What rock do you live under that you don’t know that?  Inner cities are full of multigenerational welfare families.  Getting help short term when you’re down is fine.  Expecting other people’s paychecks to support your family from the beginning and long term is not.  That’s not mean, it’s just.  The Church says I, as the worker who earns the money, have the right to determine how it’s used.  If I choose to help others with it, that’s virtuous.  Forced confiscation by government and reallocation to someone else is not.  It might be necessary at some level, but the recipients should never make the mistake of thinking they have a right to it.

DP or Chance?: Excellent points.
.
MC: Charting shouldn’t be a “struggle”. Some methods of NFP make charting a lot more complicated and a lot more work than it has to be.

And Peter said to the Lord, “It is MY paycheck, why should I be forced to share it?”

And the Lord said,.“Amen, Amen, indeed I say to you welfare is for losers are parasites who have read neither Ayn Rand, nor Googled Church teachings on the dignity of labor. It is fine for a little while, say, six weeks, but after that I say blessed is he who never needs help, for truly he has his act together unlike those pumping out babies and using other people’s money.”

And Peter said, “I need to get to my shift at Arby’s now.”

Ok, I made my response short and sarcastic because I assumed “DP or Chance”‘s rant was too offensive and illogical to be taken seriously. I see I was mistaken, so I have a couple of serious questions. NFP has a failure rate, higher for some couples than for others (irregular cycles etc. - which by the way, Jim, means charting is by no means a walk in the park for many people regardless of method), so it is obvious to me that couples using NFP must also have great trust in Divine Providence. In your view, doesn’t this mean that anything other than abstinence when you feel unready for a baby is putting faith in this new god you named - Chance? At what point exactly does the God of Abraham quit ruling a couple’s world and hand it over to Chance? Doesn’t the couple themselves have to start worshiping that other god before this can happen? And if so, how can you dare to question a non-charting couple’s faith in the One True God and His rulership - let alone accusing all non-charting couples of this? You don’t know me. You don’t know what types of research I’ve done or classes I’ve taken on nutrition, fertility, sex, and pregnancy. Just because a couple doesn’t find charting necessary doesn’t mean they are throwing health concerns to the wind and asking God to catch them if they jump off a cliff.
Don’t compare this to earning a paycheck. They are such apples-and-oranges situations that the comparison is silly and insulting.

Some people just refuse to get it.  OK, I am greedy and evil.  Whatever.  Believe what you want, I give up.

The tone of this article is rubbish because it assumes all grown men are like adolescents. We’ve been married over 25 years, and nothing like this happened on NFP. We’re too old to conceive now. But every one of you must realize when you grow old, your sexual capabilities may be limited or curtailed by health problems. So what will you do if your spouse gets cancer, diabetes, Chron’s, or heart disease? Divorce because you can’t have sex? Remember, you married for better or worse, sickness and health, til death do you part. If you’re struggling, it’s not NFP’s fault. Examine your marriage and your attitudes: are you objectifying your partner? Are you selfish? A contraceptive won’t solve that problem.

Interesting article and interesting comments. A lot of truth in both.
After thinking a lot about this, I decided to read both Humanae Vitae and Casti Connubii.  Then I came up with some more advice to men and women based on these encyclicals.

10. Women, not much experience is needed in order to know human
weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are
so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be
faithful to the moral law. So be sure to offer them some easy means of
eluding its observance.

11. Men, grow used to enjoying the marital act without fear of your
wife becoming pregnant. This way you will lose respect for her and, no
longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, will
come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish
enjoyment, and no longer as your respected and beloved companion.

12. Women, have intercourse only when the conception of offspring is
prevented, or use matrimony in such a way that the act is deliberately
frustrated in its natural power to generate life.

13. Men, have the boldness to call children the disagreeable burden of
matrimony. Carefully avoid having them not through virtuous continence
but by frustrating the marriage act.

14. Women, God alone, all bountiful and all merciful as He is, can
reward you for the fulfillment of the office allotted to you by
nature, and will assuredly repay you in a measure full to overflowing.
So, if you don’t want your reward, just don’t fulfill the office
allotted to you.

A month ago, I had never heard of the term DP NFP, I just lived my life, trying to love God and my family in the best way I know how,following the inspired teachings of the church.  It never even *dawned* on me that there could be such thing as militant, in-your-face, chart-or-you’re-as-dumb-as a-rock-NFPers out there. Weird! Interesting though.

15. Deny the marital debt to your spouse for whatever reason. Reject the
notion that both of you enjoy marital rights in the bedroom and that
you are not bound by any marital obligations which are demanded by the
good of the family and the right ordering and unity and stability of
home life.

Oh, brother.  It is about obedience, what all the great saints lived.  Using NFP: obedient.  Not using NFP and taking what the Lord gives you: obedient.  Again, what is the common thread of the saints? Obedience.  Can we stop the DP/NFP argument now?  Oh, and the great saints didn’t usually try to call attention to their own holiness, instead they drew attention toward Our Lord.  Can we do the same, please?

@Deb- great idea !

DP advocate: “Children are wonderful and we should take them as God gives them instead of charting and planning them.”
.
NFP advocate: “What do you mean you don’t want to know about your body and your health???”
.
There is no real “debate”, just two sides talking about completely different things.
.
“Natural Family Planning” has a terrible name. It isn’t natural and it isn’t family planning. All it is education so that the couple can know about their fertility and act based on this information. Avoiding pregnancy through periodic abstinence is morally licit, but, like anything, it may be done for improper or selfish reasons. It is certainly not required.

@Jim- all of your “rules” were so funny. Thanks for the laugh!

That’s why I read Casti Connubii and Humanae Vitae. They are very clear.
As I read the article, the thought that came to me most was:
what about 1cor7? No, I’m not a Protestant, but the Church has always taught the same thing about this.

Part of the irony stated: “Saturate yourself with the idea that sex is a right”...which seems to imply that it isn’t.  Bu tit is a right for both spouses, as 1COR7, Aquinas, CC, and HV all say.

And I make the 300th comment! I hope we have all learned something from this conversation. I know I have. Great article, lots of good comments, and food for thought. Everyone take care and God bless!

I hang around Catholic blogs and all I ever see is that NFP is hard. I never have occassion to talk about it in daily life but it sounds like it basically sucks.

@Dan- it seems that lately that Catholic blogs are trying to ‘keep it real’ about NFP

Here’s a very short list how NFP is NOT hard or impossible
1. it requires a monogamous couple (I think that is cool) who are on speaking terms
2. it does not harm the woman’s body (heart attack, stroke, possible death) or require surgery for the man or woman
3. it does not harm the environment with hormones
4. It aids in diagnosis of possible health problems, fertility awareness, conception, hormonal supplementation of pregnancy after conception
5. It does not have a 100% ‘success’ rate of postponing a pregnancy- but neither does any artificial means of birth ‘control’- users of NFP to postpone a pregnancy are normally predisposed to accept happily a baby who came earlier than expected

I can’t find the statistic…but I remember reading that users of NFP (both for basis fertility awareness and to postpone pregnancy)have more sex than users of ABC and other BC methods. So that makes NFP not such a bad thing (of course one reason for the ‘more sex’ would be #1 from my list)

My opinion is that most Catholic using NFP do not have sufficiently grave reasons to do so. That is the 8,000 pound gorilla that undergirds this article. I think to most of them it is simply catholic birth-control. Call me “judgemental”, but would you be judgemental to do so?

If I might add, there seems to be those who say they have the proper understanding of a just reason to use NFP who may not in the eyes of some have just reason.  However, I would propose that there are many just reasons, not only the food aspect to consider.  I can look back on my life and realize that there were times I felt particularly fragile and was grateful I never had that “last straw” which could have been my undoing.  I pray for all of you couples that struggle with fertility issues, that you experience abundant grace to (yes, at times) “cope” with God’s abundant blessings in this area.  If you get a second to pray for me too, since my husband and I always wanted more children and it’s getting too late to have more, that I can be resigned as well.

Guillermo- good thing your opinion is just that. Amazing that you know the hearts and souls and circumstances of so many couples. What a gift of discernment. But in seriousness, there is no need to imagine giant gorillas.

That is certainly true, nobody knows other people’s situation and circumstances. That’s why I stick with general comments about it…not this person should or that person should not. Let them ask their priest.

The fact that the Church insists that serious reasons exist to NOT have marital relations during the wife’s fertile time implies that without serious reasons they have no right NOT to.

Where is the word serious from Andrew? The word is just.

Actually it’s “iustae causae”, which has several English translations but which conveys a degree of gravity or seriousness. I see no problem with asking why it seems that the majority of faithful Catholic couples regularly use periodic abstinence to plan their families, or why asking such a question is judgmental. To compare, the Church allows use of hormonal treatments for serious medical reasons, even if the side effect is sterility on the part of the woman. We look generally at the number of Catholics using hormonal contraceptives, and we make the fair assumption that they cannot all be using them for medical, justifiable reasons. Of course, we would never drill an individual couple about their medical history, we leave their conscience to them and their spiritual advisor. In a similar way [NB: I am not drawing comparisons between the morality of artificial contraceptives and periodic abstinence, per se], it seems strange that the majority of faithful Catholic couples legitimately have just/serious/grave reasons for postponing children (which are the primary end of marriage; see Casti Connubii). We know that it is probable that most couples will have such reasons at some point in their marriage, but all of them, all at once, all the time? That doesn’t mean we would go quiz an individual couple about their reasons, we leave it to them and their spiritual advisor if they have one.
If a Catholic couple tells me that they are using hormonal contraceptives because they only want two children, because that seems to be a “nice, manageable number”, I will pray for that couple and probably gently talk to them about Catholic teaching. I don’t know if they have other, medical reasons for using contraceptives, but I go on what they have told me, and that doesn’t make me judgmental. If another couple tells me they are using NFP for exactly the same reason (which friends of mine have), I will do the same. That doesn’t make me judgmental either. In neither case do I make assumptions about what exactly is the state of their souls. I make judgments on the information presented.

I haven’t checked the Latin, but at least in English HV reads:
HV 10: …or by the decision, made for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law, to avoid for the time being…

HV 16: If, then, there are serious motives to space out births…

I don’t think it’s morally right to give couples something to enable them to do something immoral. We shouldn’t give murderers more ammunition. Somehow I think that is condoning and even participating in the bad action.

HV 10:
seriis causis moralibusque praeceptis observatis, animum inducunt ut…
(for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law)

HV 16:
Si igitur iustae adsint causae…
(If, then, there are serious motives…)

@Dan: Hard, yes. Impossible, no.
.
And, like @priest’s wife (?) said, it is not hard on anyone’s body.
.
If the charting is hard, learning a simpler method may clear things up. (You do NOT need to memorize the original “Art of Natural Family Planning” to figure out fertility.) If a couple is having unusually long periods of abstinence, sometimes learning a different method might help. Or there may be a medical issue that needs to be treated.  If there is a relational or psychological issue, then these need to be dealt with. Contraception will not solve them.

You forgot one; abstain when there really is no serious reason to avoid pregnancy

Thank you, this is wonderful advice.  I’ll remember this advice, so NFP doesn’t ruin my life ;)

What is NFP? You might try using the actual words at least once in the first paragraph so people will know what it is.

This seems to be rubbish. Is it supposed to be FUNNY? Is it perhaps just another “Catholic’ attack on knowing more about your own body and how it works? There was never any requirement for people to be so foolish that they could not (for example) monitor their own blood pressure, blood sugar etc. when such devices become available. Or should we be romantic and ‘faith-filled’ and just let ourselves have high BP episodes, insulin hikes etc, and never use any testing devices at all? No more chest X-rays or CT scans? No blood tests for cancer marker cells? Just ‘trusting in providence’ perhaps? How, HONESTLY, is it a sin to know your ovulation date correctly?

But this does NOT mean we should be cutting out live hearts to ‘transplant’ them. Or using fetal cells for ‘sweetener’ experiments. (NO law anywhere in USA against this??? Unbelievable!!)

The encyclical “Castii Connubi” (Pope Pius XI) is subtle but pure advice on how spouses should honor each other with sensitivity and understanding. It should be carefully studied by literate people, even from around ages 17-19. (NFP was not known at that time, around a century ago.)

Castii Connubi is truly great!!

There is nothing wrong with knowing, checking, scanning, etc.
The problem is when a spouse denies another spouse his/her marital right or when the couple together refuse to have sex during the fertile days simply to avoid pregnancy.

So Andrew, there is NEVER any valid reason to avoid pregnancy?!  Please show me where Church teaching says THAT!  You use the word “simply” as if it’s ever simple.

I think you know what I meant.

For example, if the husband makes the reasonable request the wife is under pain of mortal sin to comply, and an unwillingness to get pregnant by itself is not a valid excuse.

Spoken like the one who doesn’t have to be pregnant for 9 months.

I’m sure some people are selfish, but I think most women have at least marginally valid reasons when they avoid pregnancy.

And a man who demands his marital debt on pain of mortal sin is likely in for a LOOOOONG sexual drought!

How about this one.——-quote by Christophe?
“Guilt your husband – who would never think of resorting to contraception – into NFP because you just couldn’t have another baby right now, even though you’re perfectly healthy and your husband makes a good income. (Doesn’t he realize how old you are and how many children you already have?) Then during your “fertile” times, which last at least two weeks although you are very regular, never tell your husband what a wonderful man he is to put aside his natural desires out of solicitousness for you, and never tell him you are so looking forward to Thursday night when there will be a green sticker on your chart.”
Comment - So you are the proverbial “catch”?  Every woman’s dream?  A Saint because you would never resort to contraception! And you manage to slip in there that you make plenty of money. You elude to multiple children already.  And she doesn’t look forward to “green sticker night”? I hope you are not half as egotistical as you sound.  Tell me, is she allowed to wear shoes? Or do you live in a warm climate where “Barefoot and Pregnant” is all the rage? You’re annoyed because she wants a little more space among the small army you’re creating?  Well, good luck tomorrow - its Thursday.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/how-to-ruin-your-marriage-with-nfp/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz1v5wThOUZ

That’s the beauty of being Catholic. It’s a free choice.
Nobody is forcing anybody to be Catholic. Apostacy is always an option.

But the Catholic Church says it’s a mortal sin to refuse a spouse the marital debt whenever reasonably requested.

Take it or leave it. Take it and you’ll have a happier husband and more kids to love. Leave it and you risk your eternal salvation.  You can’t claim ignorance as an excuse because now you know.

If a husband is forced into celibacy, that’s a cross he has to carry, and God will bless him.  I’d hate to be in the wife’s shoes at the moment of her death.

@Andrew:  I don’t think anyone disputes that a husband and wife owe it to each other to try to keep each other happy, sexually and otherwise.  What’s in dispute is the phrase “whenever reasonably requested.”  It’s not reasonable for a woman to repeatedly say no for frivolous reasons, but it’s also not reasonable for a man to consider all of his wife’s objections to be frivolous.  Some women really are being frigid and awful and inconsiderate of their husband’s legitimate desires; but some men really are being selfish and overbearing by demanding things of their wives. 

.

It’s also a mortal sin to physically or emotionally force your wife to do something that she doesn’t want to do.  A man who still feels aroused when he knows his wife is miserable is a man with deep problems.

@Andrew: I agree that a man would indeed find himself in an awkward situation wearing women’s footwear at the time of his wife’s death.  I’m curious, do you ever flirt with your wife, or simply present her with a “bill” when it’s time to “pay the marital debt”?  Do you stamp it afterward, “paid in full”, or “pain of mortal sin alert - out of compliance”?  A happier husband and more kids to love, huh?  That sounds like heaven! Oops, guess that was your point.  Wow, those of us who are “ignorant” have no excuse now.  You’ve made marriage so much simpler.

Mrs. Fisher, that may be true but attraction, lust and passion (or opposite sentiments: disdain, anger, hatred) aside, the constant teaching of the Church is fully consistent with 1 COR 7 http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co007.htm
and St. T. Aquinas’ Summa:  http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5064.htm
as well as St. John Chrysostom and so many others.

It goes both ways and is explained as being rooted in justice and charity.
Justice because of the nature of the marriage contract and its obligations and Charity because of our fallen and imperfect human nature, I think.

I’m only stressing this because it is so often neglected in NFP discussions, and the way today’s anti-Christian culture is, many people are tempted to think “normal” is what they see on TV, rather than what they see in the lives of the saints.

It is what it is. Personally, I’m living celibate here in Afghanistan.

Awwww, how cute that you think that’s some kind of trump card.  My husband did that for a year too.  And for another year in Korea.  He is as serious a Catholic as you will find, but has never and would never “demand his marital debt on pain of sin.”  He’s never had to, really, but there have been times, especially several months after the birth of our first child, when I was just physically uncomfortable and had no desire.  He loved me anyway and was patient with my struggles.  As we had four more, clearly I got over them.  But I wouldn’t have had he ever approached me with language like you use.  I wouldn’t have wanted to.  If God would damn me for not sexually submitting to an overbearing cad, well…..sizzle and pop, I guess.

Just to clarify, you’re saying St. Paul and St. Thomas Aquinas are wrong then?  Did you read 1 Corinthians 7? I don’t see how you can believe both to be right, what you say and what they said. You seem to think just because I happen to quote what the Church teaches that makes me a heartless maniac.  Why believe anything the Church teaches then…or can we pick and choose whatever flavor of morality we choose?

@Andrew:  I don’t think anyone thinks you’re a heartless maniac.  Arrogant, patronizing toward women, and full of yourself because you think your fancy words make you sound intelligent.  You often say “spouse”, trying to make yourself sound as if you believe it goes both ways…but when it comes to someone, somehow, refusing sex, you automatically place that refusal on the wife. Obviously you’ve been turned down a few times. 
@Jennifer:  I think you are fairly safe - Our Lord obviously has a sense of humor, after all, he gave us Andrew, and we’ve all been entertained for days now.  And if you’re not safe, I look forward to meeting you and Andrew both when the time comes.  Yes, Andrew, with all of your piety and zeal, because PRIDE is also a sin, and you love to boast.

OK, you seem to want it dumbed down a bit. Alright…suppose there’s this wife see, and she wants to have sex with her hubby because it’s her fertile time but he wants to watch TV with his friends instead. He also doesn’t want another kid right now just because. Not only that but he just doesn’t find his wife too attractive.

I’m saying if he practices NFP right then he is bad.
If he has sex with her he is doing what he is supposed to do as a faithful and loving husband.

Somehow this Catholic teaching made me arrogant, patronizing toward women, and full of myself.

Andrew, just wanted to say I’m impressed with how well you’ve kept your cool until now. A lesser man would never have bothered to attempt to keep the conversation at a higher level under such nasty, unfounded ad hominem attacks. Some women apparently think you have no say in this because you’re male and “don’t have to be pregnant for nine months.” I’d say those women need to take a hard look at their ridiculous emotional reactions and try to discuss this like adults. I’m a woman, I’ve been pregnant and given birth, and I think you have some legitimate points of discussion. I may not agree with you 100%, but I’d like to think I would take you seriously before opening up with a round of anonymous Internet bullying. Ladies, if you wouldn’t say it to his face, don’t say it at all. Don’t abandon all pretense of Christian charity and then call HIM proud and patronizing. This is a comment thread, things can be written in one “tone” and read in another.

@ Andrew: You are right, I wanted it dumbed down, and you are just the man for that - who better than an expert in the art?  So in your little scenario, he wants to watch TV with friends (perhaps he’ll just excuse himself during the commercial break), and his unattractive wife wants sex because it’s her fertile time (like watering a plant).  And, he just doesn’t want another kid right now “just because”....But as a “good” Catholic he takes 5 minutes to “pay his debt” to his ugly wife, so that he doesn’t spent eternity in Hell, even though he felt like watching TV.  Does your entire view on Catholicism revolve around “the marital debt’?  But your last sentence is true.

@MC:  Hard to say it to his face if he is oversees.  What leads you to believe that anyone wouldn’t make these comments to his face?  I’m certainly not afraid of him (I think HIM is supposed to be reserved for “HIM”).  He has given no indication that he is a threat to others.  It’s quite possible that Andrew has very legitimate points of discussion, maybe if he didn’t write as if we lived in the 18th century, “ridiculous women” would be more likely to take him seriously.
MC: Congratulations on being a woman, getting pregnant, and giving birth.  I find it odd that you think some of us are “anonymous” internet bullies…..and then suggest that we not give up the PRETENSE of Christian Charity.  If it’s only a pretense, shouldn’t it be given up so as not to compound it with hypocrisy?
Would you want your husband to “pay the marital debt” if he would rather be watching TV (and he finds you unattractive).....just so that he doesn’t go to Hell?  That was Andrew’s “dumbed down” story for those of us who resent him because he can’t get pregnant.  I think you are a little silly, MC, and I really don’t know what you having kids has anything to do with Andrew’s comments, or subsequent responses.  I have kids as well.  My choice (and my husband’s) to stop at 2.  Rare brain cancer in a 2 year old….24 hour a day care.  A 4 year old who would like to occasionally see Mom.  Who would raise more, “a villiage”?  I personally don’t even wonder/care about the size of other people’s families.  I simply find Andrew’s language archaic and an odd choice.  You have every right to admire him.  But don’t presume to know me….I would say all of this to you, or Andrew, as I assume you would both speak to me.  And my tone was intentional, as was his, and yours.

enough said.

...wow. Kellyann, you told me (and I’m sure, Andrew) so many things about our lives and our intentions that I’m sure neither of us ever knew existed! You must be psychic - or God! I’m not even going to try responding to this nonsense, because it’s clear that you only read what you want to.

This post is so depressing! :|

I really liked #9 at the end.  The caution notes really state something I think people easily forget, but is SO true!

NFP is very difficult, especially when one spouse is not Catholic.  I just wish the Church would give more information to couples about marital relations because half the time I’m not sure how responsible I am when try to abstain but fail (only part way).

The Hat Lady’s remarks are true, however, I think the article appeals to younger couples who might still have raging hormones to battle.  At least I’ve noticed in my own life that desire changes a lot depending on age and life situation. And yes, couples do need to consider that at some point marital relations may not be possible.  My husband and I have been through long periods of abstaining due to medical situation and I can imagine those with military spouses who are overseas (my husband is now retired from military) for months or even a year must endure great periods of separation from each other.  That can be a huge cross to bear.

I love this! I am not Catholic, I do not use NFP, and I am not capable of becoming pregnant. Despite all of that, I found this article funny and insightful, and it makes a lot of points that are applicable in general to situations when sex is not an option. It is spot on in how it addresses the complicated feelings that men and women have about sex and intimacy and love, and about feeling loved by one’s partner.