Why the weasel-word “perceived?”  It’s an indisputable fact that the USCCB is a partisan organization.  Is it really that difficult for a Bishop to be honest?

What a white middle class stance to take to believe the ills of debt supercede the angst with living in poverty in your everyday lives. Do you think the poor give two licks about their rich nation’s debt when they’re living without medical care and don’t know where their child’s next meal is going to come from?

I happen to agree with you about debt—it won’t help the poor if our country gets obliterated by it—but I am a little concerned about how flippantly this comes off.

Excellent job, Patrick.  You absolutely nailed this piece.

The meat of the story is correct.  Some of you might disagree with how it was presented, just as you will not like this reply.  But…  Pat makes a great point in a limited amount of space.  The real problem for the poor is the shrinking economy.  America is on the brink.  It shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out.  If more people join the “poor” class because of government policies, who will step?  We will be so busy trying to get on government programs, we can’t take care of others.  And if you think the “rich” are going to help, you’re wrong.  They will be busy buying islands to hide out.  Only a strong country can protect it’s citizens.

Thank you for having the courage and the humility to speak the truth.  One prays that the American Church will continue to be infused with the Light that guided Dorothy Day and that banishes the dark hopelessness of statist lies.

The bishops’ entire appeal is not just immoral, it is in fact a dereliction of their duty as Catholics and bishops to take care of the poor.  Christ did not teach them to use political demagoguery to advance social causes.  Jesus clearly taught that it is a personal responsibility to do these things and that charity is in the purview of the Church.  However, the USCCB has rendered the role of caring for the poor to Caesar so they can get on with the more important stuff like some other capital campaign for the building of empty, hollowed-out cathedrals from which to teach an empty, hollowed-out pseudo gospel.

In my more cynical moments I speculate that some of the bishops may be wondering if they will actually have to put more of their diocesan income to helping the poor, rather than relying on government programs to do it for them. In my own parish, our priest has just told us that any fundraising for a sonogram machine must take second-place to the Catholic Ministries Appeal. Who else is just about fed up with this stuff?

I have been wondering for a long time why the USCCB wants the government to be the one helping the poor.  Isn’t that their job?  Aren’t WE as Catholics supposed to be out on the street helping our fellow man?  Aren’t our hospitals supposed to treat those with no where else to go?  When the USCCB started pushing that onto the Government people lose their sense of individual helping.  And the hospitals we created, once mixed with the government, well there is nothing special about them.  The government seems to poison what it touches.  We as Catholics should be working to help all these people without government.

Just received news of VP pick Paul Ryan this morning with great hope that more of the American people believe in taking care of themselves versus government claims to take of you but in reality the governing body at hand wants to convert us into a Pagan society! I am genuine Catholic(not Pelosi style Catholic) and I pray that Rryan stand on his honesty and commitment to shrink government handouts with funds they don’t have! I believe there are more compassionate people in this United States and as soon as more of us take seriously our character of acting , voting & praying to our Divine Creator for the compassion He had placed in each of our souls the United States of America will return to status of a Blessed America!

Lizziebee: “In my own parish, our priest has just told us that any fundraising for a sonogram machine must take second-place to the Catholic Ministries Appeal. Who else is just about fed up with this stuff?
The virtue of charity is a voluntary, free will offering, made by the individual through his conscience. The priest may beg, but not command such virtue of charity.

I have to agree with Marvin. Trapping the poor into programs that
endorse entitlement is wrong. Faith based help like Focus Hope in
Michigan have taken people off the welfare rolls to productive
livings with a learned skill. Government hand outs are useless as
seen in the failed stimulus. Food shelter and clothing sets people
back on their feet. The banks got bailed out. They forclosed on
hundreds of thousands of homes.  Many homes sit vacant and are
getting delapedated. Why aren’t they being donated to Habitat for
Humanity so families can get their lives back. Faith based groups
will restore dignity to America.

When the communists took the farms in Russia, the people were starving. The communists gave the people 10% of the land back, usually the land that surrounded their homes. 70% of the produce was grown on that 10% of the land. If America is to prosper, the government must give back their sovereignty to spend their money the way in which they choose.

It will be interesting to see the hypocrisy of counterfeit Catholics such as Pelosi, Biden, Sebellius et al who will criticize the Ryan budget while continuing to support the murder of the unborn.

The only concern I have when wandering down the path of “the bishops are wrong on this” is that dissident Catholics will say “we believe the bishops are wrong on birth control and abortion”...so if Conservative Catholics think the bishops are wrong in criticizing the Ryan budget and dissident Catholics think the bishops are wrong on social issues, when do we decide to listen to our bishops and what authority do they really have?

I hope Rome is listening.

I think there are many that mistake fiscal conservatives as heartless when it comes to the poor. That is not the case at all. I would just rather the money that we are forced to give our fellow citizens not go through a ten step wringer of “administrative” cost, ie, not done so in the form of taxes. I am a strong believer that if the wealthy were not penalized for being wealthy, they would be much more likely to support the poor in this country.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Maybe its time all religious organizations stop gettinng tax breaks.

“. . . if Conservative Catholics think the bishops are wrong in criticizing the Ryan budget and dissident Catholics think the bishops are wrong on social issues, when do we decide to listen to our bishops and what authority do they really have?”

The answer is simple:  The US bishops, in teaching about contraception and abortion, are in union with the entire Church and clearly speaking on doctrine.  Even if we disagree with the Church, we are required to give assent of the will and intellect, but only on topics of faith and morals, which this clearly is not.  When the bishops decide to enter into partisan politics, faithful Catholics have no obligation to follow their lead.  Bishop Boyea and Archbishop Naumann certainly understand this.

Google “obsequium religiosum Lumens Gentium” for a more complete explanation.

“...why the USCCB wants the government to be the one helping the poor?  Isn’t that their job?” @ Marvin, this is the Question (a very good one) the Bishops need to ask themselves, once we give our duty over to government then we all may just become Scrooge:

First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?
First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I’m very glad to hear it.
First Collector: I don’t think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
Ebenezer: Why?
First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
[Notice the statement]
Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support(by paying his taxes) the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.

Is this what the USCCB want Catholics to become?

Thank you Pat. Am very happy about Paul Ryan and I agree with Carol Newton.

Being poor is not a disease. People are poor because they do not have a job or at the bottom of the economic ladder. If you are working and gaining skill, poverty is a temporary situation. A country that enacts welfare, rewards non-work and sucks the private sector dry creating unemployment. Welfare and unemployment create permanent poverty which does not increase people skills and destroys their confidence and dignity. If you do not understand this you should not be talking about budgets or economics.
To talk in terms of feelings, I want or I wish is to deny these realities.

Yes, Marvin. You are correct. There is something very wrong when Catholic Bishops are campaigning for the secular Government to take care of the poor.

To Marvin:  Social Security and Medicare are NOT ENTITLEMENTS!! I worked my butt off and paid into SS and Medicare since I was 17 years old and I’m now 65 years old and almost ready to retire. That money is mine, not the government’s. I paid into a 401 K to supplement my retirement and pension and thanks to George W. Bush, that’s gone.

Both Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are a couple of spoiled rich kids who probably have never worked a day in their lives, have excellent health insurance and pensions for life on the taxpayers’ dime. They don’t have a clue about poverty, hunger and homelessness and could care less,many members of the Catholic Hierarchy included.
As a life long Catholic who was educated in Catholic schools all my life it dawned on me at a young age how many of our priests and members of the hierarchy gravitated towards their wealthy parishioners and thanks to their more than generous donations, lived/live a life of luxury and very few of them are Christ-like.

In a perfect world we would not need Medicaid and Food Stamps, everyone would be working and living expenses wouldn’t be in the stratosphere. As Christ said, “The poor you will always have with you” and “If you did it for the least of my brethren, you did it for me.”

The bishops need to spend some more time in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  State based social programs fail both the principles of solidarity and subsidiarity and in the end produce results exactly the opposite of their stated purpose. 

The institutional church is like Esau in Genesis who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage.  It has been advocating to a greater or lesser degree for a national health program since the 20s.  Now it’s upset with the form it took.  At best they’ve displayed a naivete that approaches culpability.  Instead of asking for an exception with their “yes, but” advocacy they should have been opposing something that contained intrinsic evils.  If we think its evil for us it’s evil for everyone.  Do they want the US to become like Europe, bankrupt socialist welfare states with empty churches?

The men’s group at my parish has recently been discussing the need to evangelize nominal Catholics as a preliminary step to catechesis.  It appears that many in the church hierarchy in the US could use some catechesis themselves.

Paul Ryan is an inspired choice by Gov. Romney, who desperately needs the vigor, imagination and articulate intellect of this capable, Catholic man to fortify the GOP campaign.  The USCCB and the Catholic electorate would do well to listen to Pat Archbold’s wise counsel.

Who ever wrote this article is NOT a catholic, he may want to seek the favor of the Catholic bishops…but Not the teachings of Jesus..which today is a far cry from the sick message of the USCCB.

I’m going over the author’s writing but it strikes me…

Could the author have been more charitable and respect the Bishops’ office? “High horse”? Give me a break.

Thank you for tackling this issue in a timely manner.  I do object however to its tone.  Instead of boldly proclaiming the Bishops are wrong… why not present your argument in a positive manner?  You missed out on Cardinal Dolan’s excellent interview wherein he described receiving from Rep. Ryan a thoughtful letter in reply and that the contents of the letter caused the Cardinal to re-think the matter.  We do not serve the Catholic community nor our country when we give into the temptation to point fingers and complain against “the Bishops”. It is important to note- never before have our Bishops so boldly stood up as a body and as courageous individual bishops on the serious threatening issues of our day.  Please pray for our bishops and when you have something to say about a letter or statement, please exhibit courtesy and a tad of humility when doing so.

Did the bishops really write that letter?  Or was it written by the same people who work at the USCCB who invited Diana Hayes (Homosexuality activist, promoter of liberation theology, women in the priesthood, and same sex marriage) to speak at the 2010 Catholic Social Change conference.  Let’s remember that “a conference of bishops cannot make doctrinal declarations unless it receives two-thirds approval of the individual bishops of the conference and receives the subsequent recognitio, that is, recognition of approval, of the Holy See. Thus, while a conference of bishops can assist the individual bishops of the conference it cannot substitute for the authority which they individually possess.”  That is a quote from JP2’s Apostolic Letter, Apostolos Suos, in 1998.

I leave the judgment to whether or not someone is a bad Catholic to the Almighty.  If that is how the bishops framed their disagreement with Paul Ryan, then I agree it was wrong.  That does not mean I support pulling the rug out from under vulnerable people, particularly in this economy.  I submit that if enough of us were looking after the least of our brethren, there would have been less opportunity for those who would seek to turn the country into a welfare state.  And I hear no similar outcry about creating dependency when this country sends billions of dollars in aid to Israel each year.  The fact is that politicians in both parties have created the economic crisis by ingratiating themselves to the special interests whose greed is crushing the middle class.  I look for the day when ALL of the members of the USCCB set their partisan biases aside and advocate for EVERYONE, from the unborn child in the womb to the elderly woman who had to collect tin cans to eat at the end of her life because her pension had been raided.  I also look for the day when elected officials are forced to live by the same standards as the people they represent.  No member of Congress who accepts a salary or collects benefits has the right to talk about “government dependency”.

Since when is it considered uncharitable to say that someone or a group is wrong?  I didn’t say they are bad, I sad they are wrong.  Get a grip.

Dear CeCi,
I’m sorry that you do not understand Medicare or Social Security.  They are funded programs - it is not your money.  As an american you elected politicians who stole your money and squandered it - so it is NOT there.  That is in part your fault for electing them, so don’t whine about it being your money. Your money is gone.
Paul Ryan is working to save those programs by funding them again. You would be best to vote for Ryan, he WILL save your SS and Medi programs. Hand-out Obama will only bankrupt those programs and then you will learn what austerity means.
——-
George Bush did not destroy your 401k. Social Justice programs destroyed your 401K.  Social justice forced banks to make unsecured loans to bad credit risks to allow poor people to buy houses.  That reality promoted by Obama and other community organizers created the housing crash that destroyed your savings.  Period.
———
These are facts.  Despite what Obama and the media tell you, there is no such thing as a free lunch, you cannot endlessly give money to people who produce nothing. If you are a Christian and really want to help someone… start a business and give a poor person a job.  That is what they want and what they need.  And then they can support themselves and help others instead of being ashamed.

The Government shouldn’t be in the charity business. churches and philanthropic organizations should. Marvin you are right.

Pope Benedict said recently that governments should provide for the poor. I was very disappointed. He may have had only health care in mind. It isn’t up to any government. We are commanded to feed the poor.

Ceci Castillo - Social Security was NEVER EVER intended for you to retire on. NEVER. It is to keep you barely alive if all your other retirement preparations fail. Look it up if you don’t believe me.  It has been abused and misused into a welfare program (SUPPLEMENTAL Social Security for instance), and used to declare a “balanced” budget when it was illegal to use those funds in that way. But you go ahead and act like someone stole from you. What an excuse.

Oh and do you think for a minute the Medicare Tax you paid even begins to cover medicare costs? Geezz, c’mon. READ.

Several of the bishops were critical of the USCCB letter at their recent June meeting in Atlanta. The National Catholic Register reported that, “...some conference members are concerned that recent statements have been hijacked by partisan forces during an election year… They raised concerns about conference statements that attacked the budget proposals of Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., and warned that any new statement should not venture beyond their competence as teachers of faith and morals. -See: article at: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/bishops-critique-their-handling-of-ryan-budget-before -approving-new-stateme/.

Also, Bishop Earl Boyea of Lansing, Michigan said, “We need to learn far more than we need to teach in this area.” -See Carl Olson’s article at: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/1430/Bishop_Boyea_We_need_to_learn_far_more_than_w e_need_to_teach_in_this_area.aspx

Pat Archbold you are a cafeteria Catholic and should not be on the NCRegister.

Pat Archbold or the US Conference of Catholic Bishops?

From the “Georgetown Letter to Paul Ryan”

In short, your budget appears to reflect the values of your favorite philosopher, Ayn Rand, rather than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Her call to selfishness and her antagonism toward religion are antithetical to the Gospel values of compassion and love.

Joe,
That is the funniest comment of the day.  Thanks for that!!

“In the wake of the selection of Paul Ryan as the VP nominee, you will be hearing a lot about how Ryan is a bad Catholic because the Bishops criticized the Ryan budget plan.”

Pat, I never said you called anyone a bad Catholic, nor would I condone the Bishops or anyone else calling Paul Ryan a bad Catholic.  Sheesh!

Joyve,
My comment was not in response to you.

Response to M.Quintero…Dear Sir/Madam   I can only surmise from your statement that “never have the bishops stood together” that you were not around when it was the norm that the bishops stood together..
Case# 1 bishops, ALL over the world, USA, Europe, Canada, Australia,etc (Cardinal Carlo Martini, Cardinal Suenens,Cardinal Avery Dulles) stood together, with the prpondernce of the laity, as one in opposition to HUMANAE VITRE, the encylical issued by Pope PaulVI.
Case # 2 The bishops of the USA and the world united around Pope John XXII in support of Vatican II
Case # 3 US Catholic bishops stood together in support of the issuance of
“The Social Thoughts of John XXIII”
Today the USCCB stands together in trying to defeat a President who has done more for spreading the social teachings of the Church in the USA than the Catholic bishops have done in the past 30 years. Peace, Chuck Radloff

Pope Benedict XVI wrote this.  “Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.”

And St. John Chrysostom, once said “The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”

Pretty much.

1) Our problems stem from an overreaching gov’t.  We wouldn’t have so many people in poverty if it wasn’t for the government.  Social Security should have never been started.  It’s just another program that got people started looking to the gov’ to take care of them.
2) If we had stronger families which make stronger communities we would not look to gov’t to take care of us.
3) We do not have stronger families because “Christians” strayed from the truth that the Church teaches, the Truth that Jesus entrusted to it, when they began using contraception.  AND, the priests and bishops allowed the dissent and some participated in it…and now look where we are today.  All the single women trying to raise kids on their own, either from having children out of wedlock or divorce (the fruits of contraception). Catholics in public life who are totally pro-abortion.  Nobody wants to deal with the real issues.  If we had stronger families who lived by the teachings of the Church, we wouldn’t be in the shape we are in. 
3)  I think Paul Ryan does want to deal with the real issues (and Romney as well) and he knows what they are.  There just might be a light at the end of this tunnel.  Pray that Obama does not get re-elected.

Pardon my bluster and excuse me for demeaning the august body of the USCCB, but where, just where, do they get off preaching to anybody about fiscal responsibility to the poor or anyone else. They who have allowed our Church’s coffers to be handed over via the courts to the tune of billions of dollars because they failed to exercise authority given them
I am loyal to the Church of Jesus Christ, but to these hypocrits who are politicans first and shepherds last if it all, I have nothing but contempt! Paul Ryan, a bad Catholic?in their eyes? But Nancy Peolosi, Joe Biden, et al get a pass? No wonder the average guy in the pew’s head is spinning in confusion….as the rest of the pew empties out for more sane waters.  If I hear one more member of the hierarchy tell us peons WE need to be more holy I will join the mass exodus.  It has gone beyond the pale!with our newest Cardinal in the Archdiocese of New York preparing to meet greet, and dine with the biggest promoter of abortion up to and including infanticide in the history of the planet. How can he swallow that nice juicy steak knowing he has once again fallen for Obamaloney expecting the rest of us to once more turn the other cheek. We know that Christ ate with tax-collectors and other sinners in His time. But he did that without the fanfare of the media, in a quiet manner that did not draw attention to himself. I quess we can expect once again,  if we follow the mixed messages coming from the members of this august body, to be the feck
less bunch that puts this evil man on his throne again.
If the HHS mandate gets hung around the necks of the Bishops, as it surely looks as if it will, they can always claim fiscal bankruptcy
and apply for government dole. Why not? They are already spiritually bankrupt!

To Gina, I will pray for you…you and others that think and believe like you indicate in your blog need help…PLEASE read the social teachings of the Church, Have you read RERUM NOVARUM, Have you read Pacem en Terris, Have you read Mater et Magistra and later Vatican documents, Dignitatis Humanae?? I doubt it or you would not be spreading infomation contained in your blog…I will pray to God for you today.Peace, Chuck Radloff

Chuck Radloff…Everyone has a right to their opinion but facts are facts and your friend Gina is closer to the truth. Where do you get the idea that our own Bishops(USCCB)or for that matter throughout the world EVER lent their support 100% for ANY of those issues you suggest, i.e. Humanae Vitae ?(nope?;full support for VaticanII?( not even in your dreams!)The Social Thoughts of John XXIII? (most have not even read)Continue to pray Chuck but get informed!

@Joyce—I hate it when people provide rhetoric and no facts so I’m going to point out what I see in your post.

1) “pulling the rug out from under vulnerable people”
Paul Ryan did not even propose a decrease in spending, just a smaller increase.  Your implication is either misguided or dishonest.

2) “I hear no similar outcry ... billions to Israel”
This is a straw man and off topic. I for one am against foreign aid.

3) “greed is crushing the middle class”
Why are you talking about the middle class? All people are suffering especially the unemployed.  Don’t fall for “class” rhetoric.

4) “I look for the day when ALL of the members of the USCCB set their partisan biases aside and advocate for EVERYONE, from the unborn child in the womb to the elderly woman who had to collect tin cans to eat at the end of her life because her pension had been raided.”
- WHAT? Do you think the UCCB do not unanimously advocate for these things?  What evidence do you have? While they may be wrong on their opinions and approaches, I have never heard a bishop not advocate for the poor or for life.  Those two issues practically define the bishops.

5) “elderly woman who had to collect tin cans to eat at the end of her life because her pension had been raided”
- Please! Spare us the concocted rhetoric.  The govt insures pension plans so she is not poor from that. And people impacted by “raided” pensions are the rare exception.  If her pension went under it is more likely from bankruptcy of a company not “raiding”. Silly, false, anti-business rhetoric.

6) “No member of Congress [] has the right to talk about “government dependency”.
- Really?  Then we are doomed to collapse.

“Today the USCCB stands together in trying to defeat a President who has done more for spreading the social teachings of the Church in the USA than the Catholic bishops have done in the past 30 years. Peace, Chuck Radloff”

Chuck, are you speaking of Obama? Give us a break! That man is the most pro-abortion President we have ever had. When we can legally kill our children in the womb, any other ‘social justice’ issue is practically redundant. At least the poor have life. Aborted babies do not. Where there is life there is always hope. You seem to be confused about the Church’s ‘social justice’ policies.

I’m surprised anyone looked at the Georgetown letter as anything valid - Georgetown has long abdicated its right to be considered a Catholic university, what with honoring the most pro abortion president we’ve ever seen, supporting same sex marriage advocacy, etc.

The “social justice” only Catholics are really starting to get on my nerves.

Charles said “Who ever wrote this article is NOT a catholic, he may want to seek the favor of the Catholic bishops…but Not the teachings of Jesus..which today is a far cry from the sick message of the USCCB.”
——
Huh? Who are you to tell someone they are not Catholic? When did Jesus tell us to take money from others and give it away to the poor?
——
@Pat - great article.  This issue is central to the Catholic faith and clearly defines a divide within the church. To me “forced charity with other peoples money” is not charity - it defies “free will”. To others it clearly is or they believe that the ends justify the means.
——
Just a note to all Catholics - my last check of both Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief Services (CRS) showed that the majority of income comes not from Catholic individuals but from the US govt. IF we do not want to be beholden to a socialist govt, we must give more to charity and respectfully reject the govt handing us “other peoples money”.

@Rob
Barbara Joe Whitehouse is not concocted rhetoric, she was a real person.  You can read about her here.
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/inq_BarlettSteelePart1.html

If the Bishops were consistent, Nancy Pelosi would, at the least, have been told not to present herself for Holy Communion while she continues to support abortion, defying Church teaching. Actions speak louder than words. 

Maybe this doesn’t bother you and if not, so be it.  But I for one am sick and tired of elected politicians feeding on the tax-funded teat while they preach to others about government dependency.  First of all, what they do for a living is not even honest work compared to how many of us earn our living and second, why should they live a higher standard than the people they represent?  They will continue to be a clueless, out-of-touch self-serving group so long as we continue to elect them. And they will continue to serve the interests of the people who line their pockets, regardless of whether a D or an R follows their name. 

As if the poor were responsible for the enormous debt load of your country! And what about all those wars? Maybe the US should start looking after its population and its millions of poor, before spreading all over the world to spread its idea of “democracy” at the tip of its guns! That’s what is increasing the debt, not support to “the littlest among us”.

Rob….Silence is a form of advocacy. What I believe Joyce was in part attesting to is the fact that few Bishops openly support the Pro-Life
movement…individually. Most are mostly non-involved in the March for Life each year, for instance, and we have the classic example of non-involvment when many did not speak, some even refusing to speak out about the honorific given at Notre Dame to Obama. ( I don’t want to even HEAR you mention that Notre Dame is not directly under the Bishops authority!)
Actions speak louder than words and when even most will not utter more than the perfuctory concerning the social issues we get a picture of
less than leadership.

@Joyce

This article is the excerpts from a political book (concocted rhetoric), not fact. I would be happy if the bishops took action against Pelosi. I agree that washington is corrupt, but we have created that corruption by allowing the govt to control trillions of dollars and to pick winners and losers.
—-
I have come to the conclusion that the only way to stop corruption in washington is to deflate washington.  Stop them from playing global bully, telling businesses how to operate and telling people how to live. If you want insurance go by it, if you want charity start donating.  We have created a monster and we are losing our livelihood and our liberty.

So you are in disagreement with:

http://ncronline.org/blogs/distinctly-catholic/usccb-tackles-paul-ryan

???

@Thirst for Truth - well said.  I only hope that the Cardinal plans to rip the rug out from under Obama at the fundraiser and expose Obama for what he is.  Very doubtful though.  (Added a “K” to my name.  My previous post was 2:28 pm not the 8:03 am post from a different Gina)

On another note - very sad to see New York and the northeastern states and California, all predominately “Catholic” always go blue and vote for the pro-abortion, pro-gay “marriage” (we all know that is not a marriage), etc. politicians.  Which brings me back to my previous post. I could NEVER vote for a pro-abortion candidate.  Finally, Paul Ryan, a PRO-LIFE Catholic on the ticket, a real practicing Catholic, thank you Jesus!

@ThirstforTruth

I understand, but that is not what she said.  I signed the petition against the Notre Dame speech and wrote my bishop as well. I am also frustrated at how far the bishops are willing to go.  I never heard mention of the fortnight for freedom in my church. 
You cannot take a disagreement about HOW the bishops “address” an issue and use that to claim they do not “advocate for” life or the poor.  This is just dishonest and illogical.
I would say ALL Catholics advocate for the poor.  The difference that this article has brought out is whether the bishops should advocate for the poor by mobilizing the faithful toward greater charity, job creation and a healthy economy or mobilizing for a socialist state (or some other method).

2 Thessalonians 3:10- “In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.”-Paul.

Government is bloated with employees, programs & taxpayer dollars, much of it misdirected, often used for pork & pet projects, payouts for political favors.

As a result of skewed reasoning, even cities in California are going bankrupt.  Payouts in “entitlements” promised to unions for retirements, and to charitable programs that often multiply, is *unsustainable*.

In Palo Alto, CA, a Stanford professor just estimated every citizen now owes over $9,500 each, specifically for retirement monies payable to employees that retired at age 50.  That is not for infrastructure funds or for city services received.  It is *only* for retirement payouts. 

There is a glut of misdirected monies with little accountability.  Two examples:
* While parks in California were closing, $54 million in hidden funds were just “found”.

* Transportation committees have been handing out grants to cities like candy (upward of $2 million a pop) for years, and to fix up their downtown areas, not their highways, but a few weeks ago, transportation leadership allotted $200K to study a $1. tax *per mile* for every car in the northern California region.  Cars will be equipped with meters to measure how far a person drives, to *tax* them.  It makes no sense.
 

Government MUST be reined in.  We are out of control.  Bishops (that do not have to work to support a wife, sending their children to college) insist on bringing more immigrants to the US (legal or illegal),
expecting John Q. Public to foot the bill for them & their large families,
are ADDING to our national problem, by wanting bigger government.

I object to bishops getting ANY money from the government for overseeing charity.  It makes the church beholden to government, and is a slippery slope.

Most importantly, the whole idea of relying on God to provide for our needs has gone out the window.  Bishops merely require government money and a wealthy patron or two in his diocese, to make the wishes on his lists of wants come true.  That is NOT the Christian way.

Below is a link to a diocese where Catholic Sugar Daddies are honored, for giving money & their ability to fundraise (for the bishop & B. Obama)
http://www.dsj.org/news-events/previous-posts/los-altos-couple-to-receive-st-elizabeth-ann-seton-award-from-national-ca
   

I applaud those bishops mentioned in this article that have the wisdom to see *we need change* in the US.  We cannot continue on the path we have been on.  Our country is headed for financial ruin.  I thank Pat Archbold, for writing this column and for broaching the subject.

We must see the need for MORALS and for a return to wisdom in leadership. I happily support the Romney/Ryan ticket. I pray our bishops will lead by example, and just teach the Gospel. We need to know how to rely on God.

Social Security and Medicare are NOT ENTITLEMENTS!!
—CeCi Castiilo (11:41 AM)

True. No one is entitled to them, despite the misleading term “entitlements” used by pols to characterize them to an often gullible public.

You paid taxes, you say?  And you say you were told those paycheck deductions were for your future Social Security and Medicare?  So sad.  (Refer to “gullible public” above.)

The next several months are not going to be good for the Catholic Church here in America. As is there isn’t enough petty bickering between democrats and republicans, we now get petty bickering of literally Biblical proportions. Catholic vs Catholic. Is my beloved Church going to become the next political battleground? So many of you, including the author of this article have allready casted your stones. I only pray that we are able to show more unity in Christ than we do as countrymen.

I would prefer the Bishops take up Reformed Theology.  How much money and time was totally wasted on changing some words in the Mass?  (Like Jesus really cares about that).  Ditch their myopia on the social gospel and simply preach —the gospel.  From that, everything else will flow.  They got off track when they started reinventing things because they have too much time on their hands.  They have made Catholicism into a corporation.

@ Bill Addams - AMEN!!!

Um… if you’re going to talk about debt and morality you’re going to have to not support capitalism while you’re at it. Christian teaching is against the basis of Capitalism. It is against capitalism so much that originally countries like Spain needed a Jewish population to lend money. Only with watered down Christianity has Capitalism been allowed to co-exist with Christianity as it does now.

I wasn’t shocked that this writer is from Long Island… I wouldn’t be surprised if he was from The Hamptons.

Another example of radical relativism in where people least expect it. This author clearly values money more than human life.

@Rob…With all due respect,to say I cannot disagree or argue about
HOW the Bishops advocate for or against something without being dishonest
and illogical makes no sense in this case. I repeat that silence is a form
of advocacy. To witness to a truth in silence is one thing. i.e. when Jesus refused to respond to Pilate’s provocation. To be silent when in the presence of grave sin is to give the impression at the very least of disinterest by non-involvment. Especially when all around you is crying out for justice as is the case of over 50 million aborted babies since Roe v Wade.
Maybe I just missed your point…as I think you have missed Joyce’s point here. To say that some or many bishops have missed the boat on important social issues for apparently strictly reasons of political bias is, in my opinion, is in part also at the crux of their objection to Paul Ryan’s budget plan. Either they have not understood him or they have misinterpreted the church’s teachings or in the worst possible scenario, placed politics above it all. It is apparent that the USCCB for the most part remains impotent and ineffective because they cannot seem to get their collective act together due to personal politics. To say this is neither illogical nor dishonest. I agree with Pat that while we cannot argue dogma we can argue and disagree with clerics who insist on putting the Church’s neck in the noose of politics.

Is there a public record of which Bishop voted for/against (171-26)?

Thank you—- keep up the good work.

Continued blessings.

When I first heard of Obamacare I was against it because there was no way that we could provide health care for an additional hundreds of thousands of people without increasing health care costs. But when I was at church the sermon was ” Lazarus and the Rich Man”. And I thought—Would Jesus want me to have health care just because I can afford it and some poor person not have health care? Of course not—this is the closest thing to “Lazarus and the Rich Man” that I can think of. Are you a Christian?

@Ben [“Only with watered down Christianity has Capitalism been allowed to co-exist with Christianity as it does now.”]    Excuse me?  How do you think parishes and diocesan Cathedrals are built?  And parish schools?  Who do you think is paying for building Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran and Presbyterian Hospitals and funding missionaries to spread the gospel?  It takes money and charitable givers knowing they have been blessed.  As we are blessed we desire that our giving also be a blessing to others.  Watered down Christianity?  The Good Samaritan in the parable of Jesus gave of his time, his mercy, his compassion and of his convenience to place the injured man on his animal.  He also gave of his money to the inn keeper and agreed to pay for any extra cost on his return trip.  Catholics like you, Pelosi and David Axelrod are idiots.  Let’s see their tax returns for how much they give to charity.

@dennis

Christ called us to take care of the poor.  Obamacare is not wrong because it is charity, it is wrong because it takes away people’s free will.  It forces people to buy insurance from one plan, it forces people to support a system that funds abortion, it forces them to partake in a system payed for with money stolen from unwilling participants.

We cannot follow our conscience without free will.  We cannot follow our faith without free will.
- If you are the rich man, create a business and hire the poor so they can buy healthcare.
- If you are the rich man, give to Catholic Relief Services and bring water and wells to the truly poor.
- If you are the rich man, visit with the poor and the widows and bring joy to them.
I do not believe that God calls us to create a coercive govt to do his will.  God did not punish the rich man for not creating a govt and passing off my His command to the govt.
Washington has been promising to solve poverty for 60 years and poverty has gotten worse. If our final judgement is based on what we voted for in washington we are in big trouble.

@ThirstforTruth
1) I did not miss Joyce’s point, I disagreed with her tactics - rhetoric, inflammatory language and class warfare.
2) I did not say it was illogical to disagree, I said it was illogical to assume that because a bishop does not “speak out” the way that you would like, that they are anti-life or anti-poor. How do you know that they are not in a dialog with the Vatican to address Nancy Pelosi, how do you know that they are not praying to God that she see the errors of her ways?
3) On charity, while I fervently disagree with the liberal bishops. I understand their desire (wrong as it is) to put their faith in the giant powerful govt.  They see so much money in washington and hope to divert it to the poor. “if we just force all Americans to pay more of their life to the govt, we can feed the poor”.  Misguided, but I cannot question their concern for the poor and accuse them of not “wanting” to help the poor, but I can accuse them of being wrong and ultimately hurting the poor.
4) On life, I am less tolerant of silence.  However, the church is the One institution in the world that unequivocally opposes abortion. The ONLY one. I would not have learned of the truth of abortive murder had I not been brought up Catholic, I would have been taught by the media and teachers unions that to even question abortion “rights” was pre-human.
—-
We cannot rely on the bishops (alone) to do God’s will wrt abortion, WE must do God’s will and build a coalition.  The bishops strength lies in the ability to lead Christ’s church and asking them to fight our battles is a little unreasonable given that WE have not convinced our own friends, family and church members of the importance of this issue. We cannot tell the bishops to go around with an iron fist and eject Nancy Pelosi while we have dinner with and play sports with abortion supporters. I believe that Satan is trying to divide us FROM the bishops and the Holy Spirit, and I for one will petition our bishops, but I will not condemn them. God bless you.

To Thirst for Truth…I have concluded the blogs on this article are based upon a National Catholic Register ..no wonder you are so far out in left (pardon me, right field) or on another planet…..If youn read the National Catholic Reporter you would be better informed…your invincible ignorance” is a by-prouduct of what your read..Instesd read the encylicals on Catholic social justice which I named…and maybe subscribing to the NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER would elevate your knowledge of the Catholic church and what it stands for…not the edics of Cardinal Dolan, the church comic. Peace, Chuck R

@Ben “This author clearly values money more than human life.”

Please. Is this how you show that you are a better Christian than Pat?

Maybe Pat believes that more people will suffer in a depression than in a stable economy. Maybe Pat sees that the poor and unemployed suffer the most when govts collapse from socialist policies.  Maybe Pat believes that it is inaccurate (wrong) to call an increase a cut.
—-
You seem to imply that capitalism requires borrowing or banks?  This is NOT true. Nor is it true that Christ was against capitalism.  Jesus father was a carpenter.  Joseph would have needed to work as an apprentice until he could afford his own tools and enough surplus to buy wood to craft and sell.  Jesus could not have eaten naturally without farmers who needed to buy blows and oxen. The apostles could not have cast nets from boats without boats and nets.  Boats, nets, plows, saws, hammers - these are capital.  These are the basis of capitalism.  I believe God has revealed the truth of labor, tools and capital to us through His creation - nature.

As Roman Catholics, we believe that our Church is the one, historically continuous, true orthodox Church. Here’s a danger that I see. That doing away with government funded safety nets will open the door to inter-faith charitable competition. Would we be in danger then of losing souls to Protestant churches, non-Christians, even atheists, who might offer more $, or better food, or better education, etc? Already Pentecostal churches are gaining massive converts in South America, a traditionally Catholic stronghold, because the Church there has failed to answer the needs of the people. And here in the US, to take a small example, some Catholic families send their children to private Episcopal schools rather than Roman Catholic ones because the education is better. Perhaps the US government actually saves Roman Catholicism by taking financial pressure off the Church and laity and allowing individual Catholics to do good without being overwhelmed by the massive demands for charity that would ensue if we did away with all government assistance. Just a thought.

Dear, dear Charles Radloff:  The National Catholic Reporter is the fishwrap rag for all the Catholic dissidents on the planet! It’s editor is the ex-priest exemplare,Tom Fox,who wouldn’t acknowledge a Catholic dogma in his paper if it rose if the Lord Himself were to offer it. If you read this tripe on a regular basis looking for truth no wonder your poor mind is warped! To enlighten yourself further read Father Z’x blog WHAT DOES THIS PRAYER REALLY SAY as to the validity of this newspaper calling itself Catholic.  The National Catholic Register is published and owned now by EWTN which should tell you all you need to know about its validity as a spokespaper for Catholicism. All that calls itself Catholic these days is often not even close! But thanks for thinking of me.

@michael pelletier

Wow, this is how you think? Do you think that God will be upset that protestants are more charitable than Catholics because he views them as his rival?  Is our mission of charity just to buy followers for Jesus?  Are Catholics to base their school choice on the best education vs raising them in the faith? Should we support an immoral govt program because it gives our team more members? Is pushing God’s commandments off onto the federal govt really going to save the church by letting us NOT do God’s will? I have to hope this is a really bad joke.
—-
God has asked us to do two things: 1) Spread God’s Word (even if we don’t sign up new members) and 2) Love our neighbor. I can’t see how wishing for someone else to take over our mission is going to save us?
BTW, if there are more people in poverty since the govt has been running welfare, how is that helping?

Pat,you do not seem to know what you are talking about. This goes back to the social teachings of the Catholic Church. You are talking like a conservative Republican. I think you should research about the common good that all Popes have spoken about. Do your homework before you criticize the USCCB.

I think it’s extremely important to evaluate all the issues in this election.

Paul Ryan is firmly on the Catholic side on most of the MOST IMPORTANT social issues: pro-life, pro-traditional marriage, against EMBRYONIC stem cell research, and against euthanasia.

We should all take a look at the abysmal records of both Obama and Biden on these issues.

The proper solutions to poverty are debatable.  The bishops may be right or wrong on this.  The Catholic positions on life and marriage are not debatable.

Our grandparents did not have womb to tomb government security nets. They did not even have credit cards or health insurance (formerly called medical insurance).  Families took care of each other, and helped their neighbor.  Seems to me that is more Catholic and Christian than being taxed to death ( currently anout the first 3 mnths of each year’s salary goes to the government in taxes…taxes that are used to set up huge bureaucracies such as Health and Human Services (HHS) and HUD and so forth.  But who do you think helps his neighbor more effectively—a bloated government agency or the Catholic or Christian or relative or friend down the street?!!  Give neighbors the same amount of taxpayer money that has been spent by government bureaucracies on the poor, and the neighbors would have shoved the problem.
. -Karen . 
www CatholicBusinessJournal, biz
Generating a return on principle

@Pelon:  [“Pat,you do not seem to know what you are talking about. This goes back to the social teachings of the Catholic Church.”]    I think you just made Pat’s case.  Thank you.

@Pelon:  [“Do your homework before you criticize the USCCB.”]  We did.  The last ten years prove the USCCB are not above criticism.

Pat is a Republican first and a Catholic second. He is as much of a “Cafeteria Catholic” as Joe Biden and others who are Democrats first and Catholic second.

Pat and those like him have just chosen different items from the menu.

Thanks Pat and WD, Marvin, Carol, Rob, etc.. I thought that I was the only one sitting out here on a branch, shaking my head at Bishop Blaire and the USCCB for their blindness about what Jesus wants from us, NOT THE GOVERNMENT! When the bishops were over with Pope John Paul II, he told them to get out of bed with the politicians and get back to the poverty of the Holy Church, of which, they have refused to do. Poor CeCi and others like her that refuse to open their eyes as they want the poor to be controlled by the government and to be it’s slave. By the way, CeCi, it WAS NOT BUSH that destroyed your 401, it was Barney Frank, Chris Dowd, John Kerry, and Obama, with that evil ACORN, which is now called SATAN, a name that truly shows what they are all about. Our Founding Fathers DID NOT give us these socialist programs (S.S., food stamps, health “insurance”, welfare, etc. as they knew that the people would not only take care of themselves, but, also their fellow man.  +JMJ+

  What the bishops do not understand is that the more the federal government takes over our lives with entitlement programs, the more the family is destroyed.  How?  Look at Europe.  They don’t need nor desire children.  Their governments give them all of the benefits that would come with strings attached if secured from family members.  They can avoid the noise and expense of children while relying on the government to protect them from financial ruin. 
  Additionally, where is the breakdown in morality in all of this?  How many poor families are made so by the choices of men and women to live together without marriage, divorce, sex outside of marriage, etc.  When was the last time that we heard the bishops condemn this source of poverty?

How dare you question the Bishosp!  Where is your humility and obedience? Patrick, you are a cafeteria Catholic!  Your Catholic education must be patheticlly lacking.

Or maybe your real Master is the GOP and you are a Catholic fraud.

So I suppose the Bishops I quote who say the same thing as I do are Cafeteria Catholics too?

Bishops come out against Obama Administration on HHS Mandate: Yay, Bishops!!!  Remember, you must listen to the Bishops!!!

Bishops criticise Paul Ryan Budget plan:  Boo, Bishops!!!  Who do you think you are, you high horse sitting sand faces?!?  Ignore the Bishops!

HEAR YE, HEAR YE All you rich, conservative so-called Catholics.
We need to go back to the “good old days” when Catholics were the poor working class and were dyed in the wool Democrats…and supported the Churches teachings, established Catholic Hospitals, Schools and helped people in need. Then the Great American Dream, these middle class Catholic Democrats were able to send their children to college…not because they made money from the “trickle Down Republican story” no, just good hard work, and the fact that they made a good living on union wages.
Then the kids that went to college and made a few bucks, thought they were rich and did not want to share anymore…forget Catholic Schools, shun the Catholic Hospitals…no, lets keep the money and all turned into conservative Republicans. That was not too bad when the Republican party was America first, Republican party second… then Grinrich came along with his “in your face politics” and the country has never been the same…we are more devided as a country then the pre Civil War days.
So, you bright young ex Democrats want to turn the country I dearly love,
(served 5 years in the USA Military) into a 3rd world with 2 classes, the very poor, and the very rich. Good Luck, but Remember God is watching…and for the first time in 30 years the USCCB got it right.so long Mr. Ryan

When I initially read the response to the Ryan budget I was struck by the incongruity of the statement… claiming that it would be immoral to attempt to live within our means while ignoring the fact that we are taking money from children, grandchildren and great grandchildren to pay for spending today… without their permission, which called stealing. Not only is this an offense against the Commandments of God it is an offense against the principles of a democratic society in that you have not given these future generations of tax payers a chance to vote away the proceeds of their hard work.

Nothing in the Ryan budget forbids any Christian institution or individual from selling what they have and giving it to the poor. Nothing in the Gospel compels the state to do the works of Christians.

Wouldn’t it be refreshing to see a statement from the USCCB on death, judgement, heaven and hell?

The welfare system has a twin: the warfare system.  The two go hand-in-hand.  Democrat governments have never dared to seriously reduce the military budget and our imperial adventures (and have in fact expanded them); republican governments have never dared to seriously reduce the entitlement programs (and have in fact expanded them). 

It is clear that the country in on the brink, but it seems more humane to first decrease the empire and bring the troops home (where they can more effectively defend us) before cutting in a major way the welfare system on whom many have grown woefully dependent.

Paul Ryan has no intention to trim the empire and has no credibility in regards to the entitlement system (he supported Medicare D and TARP, or welfare for the banks). 

The only candidate who had a serious plan to address the budget quickly and one that would not hurt the poor but offer a transition for the generation of those dependent on welfare was derided by both conservatives and liberals.  His name was Paul too…

Hi Pat,

Your points are well taken.  Unfortunately, many Catholics (including a large number in the clergy) confuse the DNC’s economic platform with defined, Catholic teaching.  And this confusion then effectively neutralizes the power of the “Catholic vote” on the most important moral issues of the day.  Essentially, the argument is made that the liberals (typically Democrats) are “with the Church” on economic matters and the conservatives (typically Republicans) are “with the Church” on social issues like abortion, euthanasia and “gay marriage” -  so both sides have something “right” and something “wrong”.  As such, the conclusion is reached that Catholics can understandably vote either way.  Aside from the fact that this argument completely ignores the principle of proportionality (being “right” on economic matters could never neutralize being wrong on directly and intentionally killing millions of innocent human being), it is also wrong on the facts.  The DNC does *not* faithfully reflect Catholic teaching on economic matters.

The Church rightly raises a prophetic voice to warn us when societal conditions are in violation of Catholic moral principles.  Yet, as in regard to the physical sciences, the Church has no particular competence in the area of macro-economic theory or practice (typically, state and federal government economic policy).  This is precisely what Archbishop Naumann and Bishop Boyea were speaking about.

I know many older Catholics (including those in the clergy) who still feel a loyalty (or at least a leaning) toward the Democrat party because that party was sympathetic to all the Catholic immigrants who came to this country and it tried to be the party “of the little guy.”  The problem is that the Democrat party has mutated into something quite different now -  especially when it comes to the very littlest guy -  the unborn child.  And its economic policies regularly trample over the Catholic principle of subsidiarity - jumping to favor federal programs to help the poor and perverting true charity in the process.

I once had an extended discussion with former Senator Paul Simon (D-Illinois) about this issue in the context of the welfare reform proposed by Republicans in Congress and signed into law by then-president Bill Clinton.  Simon was outraged that the reform was being passed near Christmas and even referred to Matthew 25 on the floor of the Senate.  I pointed out to him that Jesus pinned the responsibility for taking care of those in need on the shoulders of the individual and did not say to cede it to the government.  Why?  What is the purpose of charity?  Is it solely to take care of temporal needs?  Even primarily?  No.  It is to model the love of Christ, to draw others toward him like a moth to the light.  And there is the further hope that such love will produce other Christs who will in turn go out and do likewise.  It is a grace-filled plan of reproduction, if you will. 

Economic ideas/systems that try to undermine this dynamic miss a very important point.  Yes, we want to ease temporal suffering, but the *way* in which that is accomplished is crucial.  We must recognize human frailties - such as the fact that those who receive anonymously, automatically and at a distance (such as what happens when “government” gives), tend to miss the meaning in the charity and may even take a perverse, dangerous lesson from it:  I am *owed* this.  That is a very dangerous lesson to “learn” in the economy of salvation, or any economy, for that matter.

Conversely, when *individuals* reach out, there is a protective element in play:  seeing the giver eye to eye (or as close to this as possible) which tends to elicit a sense of responsibility on the part of the receiver and a sense of direct gratitude.  It’s important to be very careful not to create too much distance between giver and receiver -  hence the Catholic principle of subsidiarity.

Unlike moral issues such as abortion, euthanasia and “gay marriage”, conservatives and liberals (in general) don’t disagree on the ultimate goal of helping those in need.  They disagree about how that goal should be achieved.  And I would argue that, at least today in this area, conservatives are pushing the pendulum back in a Catholic direction after liberals have pushed it too far to the left in terms of government intervention (especially federal intervention).

Here are some articles that I think are worth reading on this topic, including a statement from Archbishop Naumann and other bishops from Kansas:  The Economy and the Election:

http://www.theleaven.com/v34/v34n2election.html

My friend, David Palm, on Marquette theologian Dan Maguire’s criticism of Paul Ryan:

http://thepalmhq.blogspot.com/2012/05/cant-public-radio-find-any-catholics.html

(Note:  David’s article also brings out some interesting quotes relating to how the government has taken over care for the poor)

Leon Suprenant:  His reaction to “The Economy and the Election”

http://archkckblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/the-economy-and-the-election/

[Note:  I’m neither a Republican, nor a Democrat]

Would somebody please point me to the Church document that establishes that it is within the competence of the Bishop to make ex Cathedra pronouncements on the funding levels of wasteful government programs even if we have no money to pay for it?

Cafeteria? Please.

“A house divided against itself cannot stand.” These posts are filled with so much venom! There was a a time when a family did not air its dirty laundry in public. Now look at us spewing judgement and hate and anger at our brothers’ sins. That’s God’s job! Bishops are men like us. Some are holy, some are flawed, sinful or just ignorant but none is worthy of the hatred and anger voiced here.
There is much wrong in our country but if individuals do not display the charity of Christ crucified then crucifying our appointed leaders is not the answer. Write you concerns in private to you bishop and do not let the world see the division and anger.
“If you have a grievance against your brother (bishop) go to him in private…..”

The Church’s social teaching is very clear on the role of the state in promoting the common good of civil society. In fact, the very legitimacy of public authority rests on this. The Church’s social teaching does not presuppose liberalism’s antipathy to government or government spending. The Compendium and the Catechism are pretty clear on this. Aquinas informs Catholic social thought not James Madison or Thomas Jefferson. No thomist could ever say, “the government that governs the least governs the best.”
The Church calls for all sectors of society to contribute to the common good but it is the public authority which is primarily entrusted with this role. The Church’s teaching is clear that poor and vulnerable people must be prioritized as a matter of justice and human dignity. Social service programs are not intended to be a long term solution to poverty but rather intended to ameliorate poverty. Cutting programs that help people in need while there is still three people for every one job available and when poverty continues to rise, would be a dereliction of duty by the public authority entrusted with securing the common good.

Pat,

A) David Palm noted the following point that I think deserves some consideration in regard to what “the bishops” wrote or did not write in regard to the Ryan budget:

“As far as I can determine, Paul Ryan has taken positions contrary to letters from a committee of the USCCB.  In terms of Catholic doctrine, the binding nature of such letters on the conscience of a Catholic is exactly zero. As Pope John Paul II said in his Apostolic Letter Apostolos Suos, issued motu proprio:

In order that the doctrinal declarations of the Conference of Bishops referred to in No. 22 of the present Letter may constitute authentic magisterium and be published in the name of the Conference itself, they must be unanimously approved by the Bishops who are members, or receive the recognitio of the Apostolic See if approved in plenary assembly by at least two thirds of the Bishops belonging to the Conference and having a deliberative vote.

and

No body of the Episcopal Conference, outside of the plenary assembly, has the power to carry out acts of authentic magisterium. The Episcopal Conference cannot grant such power to its Commissions or other bodies set up by it.”

http://thepalmhq.blogspot.com/2012/05/cant-public-radio-find-any-catholics.html

B) As the Catechism (no. 2431), quoting Pope Pius XI, teaches:

“Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. **However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.**”

The liberal model of government regularly runs rough-shod over the Catholic principle of subsidiarity – rushing to trust the federal government to essentially take over charitable matters. 

C As Robert Royal wrote in Philanthropy Magazine:

It is ironic, then, that the greatest challenge to Catholic philanthropies only began much later, during the New Deal. Aloisius Muench, bishop of Fargo, North Dakota, famously remarked at the time, “The poor belong to us. . . . We will not let them be taken away,” meaning that growing secular programs threatened the old institutional mission. A few years later, another Catholic leader warned that trends towards taking charitable efforts out of the parishes and centralizing them in diocesan offices might lead to a loss of “both the interest and the support of the clergy and the laity.” Even worse, he feared a future “when parish priests and their people cease to say ‘our poor’ and speak rather of ‘your cases.’”  (“Conversion Story: What happens when big charity meets big government”)

http://thepalmhq.blogspot.com/2012/05/cant-public-radio-find-any-catholics.html

Is there an important role for the federal government in protecting the vulnerable?  Of course.  But it’s a question of balance and means.  The DNC is not the economic wing of the Catholic Church. 

@Rick (9:34am)  [“How dare you question the Bishop!”]  Really?  Your problem is an example of adult Catholics still stuck in what the nuns taught us in Catholic grammar school.  You have never graduated into adult thinking in the faith.  Our Bishops are not beyond reproach.  A sign of Christian maturity (and one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit) is that of discernment —knowing truth from error.  The Bishops (and all your bow down supporters) have totally ignored sound financial principles concerning debt and borrowing outlined in the Bible.  Even Peter disagrees with you about not questioning the church leaders of his day when he was brought before the religious court:  “We must obey God rather than men.”  The USCCB are not God.

Again, I think we need to be careful before blaming “the bishops” here.  Again, as David Palm put it in regard to the USCCB’s criticism of the Ryan budget:

“As far as I can determine, Paul Ryan has taken positions contrary to letters from **a committee of the USCCB**.  In terms of Catholic doctrine, the binding nature of such letters on the conscience of a Catholic is exactly zero. As Pope John Paul II said in his Apostolic Letter Apostolos Suos, issued motu proprio:

In order that the doctrinal declarations of the Conference of Bishops referred to in No. 22 of the present Letter may constitute authentic magisterium and be published in the name of the Conference itself, they must be unanimously approved by the Bishops who are members, or receive the recognitio of the Apostolic See if approved in plenary assembly by at least two thirds of the Bishops belonging to the Conference and having a deliberative vote.

and

No body of the Episcopal Conference, outside of the plenary assembly, has the power to carry out acts of authentic magisterium. The Episcopal Conference cannot grant such power to its Commissions or other bodies set up by it.”

http://thepalmhq.blogspot.com/2012/05/cant-public-radio-find-any-catholics.html

Just because something comes out of the USCCB, that does *not* mean that the American Catholic Bishops agree with it.  A recent case in point:  The U.S. Bishops issued a document criticizing another document issued by a different committee of the USCCB some time ago.  That previous document was even *withdrawn* by the U.S. bishops because it was problematic:

http://old.usccb.org/doctrine/covenant09.pdf

Also interesting -  Cardinal Dolan’s letter to Paul Ryan:

(Excerpt)

It is clear that all of this correspondence reflects recognition of the foundational principles at work. Within the given parameters of such principles, people of good will might offer and emphasize various policy proposals that reflect their experience and expertise. The principles of Catholic social teaching contain truths that need to be applied. Thus, one must always exercise prudential judgment in applying these principles while never contradicting the intrinsic values that they protect.

A singularly significant part of our duty as pastors is to insist that the cries of the poor are heard, and that the much needed reform leading to financial discipline that is recognized by all never adds further burdens upon those who are poor and most vulnerable, nor distracts us from our country’s historic consideration of the needs of the world’s suffering people. The late Blessed Pope John Paul II was clear about this when he said: “When there is question of defending the rights of individuals, the defenseless and the poor have a claim to special consideration” (Centesimus Annus, 10, citing Rerum Novarum, 37). In any transition that seeks to bring new proposals to current problems in order to build a better future, care must be taken that those currently in need not be left to suffer. I appreciate your assurance that your budget would be attentive to such considerations and would protect those at risk in the processes and programs of such a transition. While appreciating these assurances, our duty as pastors will motivate our close attention to the manner in which they become a reality.

The principles of subsidiarity and solidarity are interrelated to one another. The late Pope reminded us that, “... the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good. (Centesimus Annus, 48).” Thus you rightly pointed out Pope John Paul’s comments on the limits of what he termed the “Social Assistance State.”

Your letter is correct in observing that the Church makes an essential contribution to society when she raises up moral principles to help guide and inform decisions about public policy in a compelling way. We bishops are very conscious that we are pastors, never politicians. As the Second Vatican Council reminds us, it is the lay faithful who have the specific charism of political leadership and decision (Lumen Gentium, 31; Apostolicam Actuositatem 13). The high call to public service which you have nobly answered entitles you and all our elected officials to our respect and constant prayer. Thanks to you and your colleagues for accepting that call.

(End of excerpt)

http://budget.house.gov/uploadedfiles/dolanresponsetoryan5_18.pdf

Michael Forrest….You offer some very interesting quotes. The last comment you make is that “the DNC is not the economic wing of the Catholic Church”! I agree but the problem seems to lie closer to the idea some members have within the USCCB that the Democratic Party be the *political* preference of the Bishops, thus the Church at large. Odd when you think of the Dems as the chief proponents of the culture of death and social abberations, such as the move to include in their current platform, same sex marriage! What have the Bishops said regarding this move? Nothing that I have heard..no noise there is deafening.

In truth, the USCCB should be disbanded. It is because of them the idea of an American Catholic Church as separate from Rome is often perceived
and enabled. Not that they come right out and say this but whle the principle of collegiality has been strengthened allegience to Rome has been softened if not challenged by the very presence of this organization. They have become a dangerously devisive element in our church largely because of the many political stances they take, often disregarding church teaching. Laymen have become confused rather than enlightened by this organization as comments here prove. The Ryan budget problem is a case in point. Christ in his church makes it quite clear that charity towards one neighbor is a matter of the individual heart and disposition of the soul, not a main responsibility of government. This is clearly what the church is saying through the principle of subsidiarity which would seem to be putting those bishops objecting to the Ryan plan on quite the opposite side of what the Church actually teaches. Confused are we?

Christ did not come to save governments but fallen human souls. In fact he made it quite clear, in the Gospels, that we are to render to Caesar only what belongs to Caesar, and to God the things that belong to God. Our bishops were commissioned to act as teachers and shepherd to the flock, mainly by caring for their souls. When considering this in light of the very purpose of our journey here on earth it would seem the USCCB has a far different agenda,a more political agenda, in most instances.

Finally I would like to say that Pat Archbold has done a brave, courageous and I might add, perfectly just thing, in raising this issue in these critical times. Hardly the act of a cafeteria Catholic as some accuse here nor outside the bounds of what is proper for laymen to consider. In fact, one could go as far as to say it is a moral responsibility to speak out on civil matters concerning the Nation in the tradition of all good patriots. To suggest that it is hubris to do so is an act of false humility. Again, silence in the face of evil, especially when perpetrated by the ordained, is sinful. Have we not just come through the worst instance of such moral turpitude where silence led
innocent souls to the slaughter? Lay persons with moral consciences cannot just simply stand aside in such instances in the name of fear of offfending the hierarchy who job it is to serve, not act as Lords to the manner born.

Hello “thirstfortruth”.  If you look at one of my previous comments, you’ll see that I addressed the misplaced loyalty or “leaning” that some Catholics (even clergy) have for the Democrat party and gave my opinion as to why it still persists.  It’s unfortunate and it undermines the prophetic voice and power of the Catholic Church in America.

Regarding the USCCB, I would certainly be relieved if the U.S. Bishops decided to stop various committees from issuing documents and letters to the Catholic public.  Too many Catholics come away believing that these documents have real weight, as if they were approved by the body of the U.S. bishops, when then simply weren’t.  And, too often, these documents emanating from these committees of the USCCB have a liberal slant.

@Michael Forrest

Your points are valid when you say that many in the Church and at the USCCB confuse DNC economic policy with Catholic social teaching.  Indeed, the liberal government (and it has been so since the 1910’s) runs rough-shod over the principle of subsidiarity as you put it.

However, it is going to be hard to convince those on the fence or those economically confused that the correct manner to reduce the deficit is primarily to reduce welfare programs, when there is a huge amount of ill-spent money (not to say criminally-spent) in our military adventures.

Besides, I can’t muster any excitement over Ryan’s credibility as a spending slasher if his record is any indication.

The Bishops were wrong. Thank you, my sentiments exactly.

If Ryan’s views on economic issues don’t excite and motivate a faithful Catholic, then (assuming one is a faithful Catholic), perhaps his pro-life views might.

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Paul_Ryan.htm/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frenchrevolution/2012/08/11/paul-ryans-glittering-pro-life-credentials/

Vance -  just fyi:  that letter about the Ryan budget was only issued by a committee of the USCCB.  It was not approved by the body of the U.S. Bishops.  As such, it’s not quite fair to say that “the bishops were wrong” on this.

You might appreciate the following article about this issue:

http://thepalmhq.blogspot.com/2012/05/cant-public-radio-find-any-catholics.html

I want to thank the National Catholic Register for allowing us to have this dialogue.  Over at the other “catholic” publication with the same initials, my comment critical of the LCWR has yet to be acknowledged.  Little wonder it’s referred to as the “fishwrap.”

MAccad said:

“However, it is going to be hard to convince those on the fence or those economically confused that the correct manner to reduce the deficit is primarily to reduce welfare programs, when there is a huge amount of ill-spent money (not to say criminally-spent) in our military adventures.”

Precisely, not to mention the amount of foreign aid we pump into other countries. 

I know we have a civic duty to vote but I just wish we had a choice better than the lesser of two evils.  It doesn’t help that the USCCB suffers from the same political schism as the rest of the country.  Anyone who doesn’t believe they’re politically divided should ask themselves why Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are still permitted to present themselves for Holy Communion.  One has only to look at what happened to Father Guarnizo when he quietly declined to profanate the Eucharist at a funeral Mass.  When the lesbian daughter of the deceased took the opportunity before Mass to introduce Father to her lesbian partner, he rightly decided he could not give her Holy Communion.  He got the smack-down that should have been administered long ago to pro-abortion, pro-sodomy politicians who attend Mass in that same diocese.

I find nothing compelling in Archbold’s argument and find many of his statements baseless, callous and offensive. There is no magic debt number upon which the sky falls. There has been a national debt the entire span of my 50+ years. Basic economics (other than the “Me first!” teachings of Rand and Ryan) prescribe borrowing during a recession, and paying off debt during good times.  Archbold wants to massively shrink the economy in order to avoid “massively shrinking the economy”? Ryan Medicare and Social Security put under the control of the money lenders.  The richest in our nation have experienced an income growth of over 250% in the last 30 years while for the rest it has remained flat.  The rich pay the lowest effective taxes since the 1920’s.  A huge part of our budget is spent on arms and the military, more than the next 11 highest-spending countries combined! Yet, there are people that support additional breaks for the rich, increased military spending, and want to make up the entire difference by taking from the poor and the sick.  I hope Mr. Archbold eventually sees the error of his ways, or maybe he ought to consider one of the 20,000 Protestant sects available. I’m sure there is a cafeteria plan somewhere that will allow him to live comfortably with his wish to abandon the poor.

To all commenting here pro or con the Bishops:
FYI!! You will hear all through-out this campaign,the falsity that Ryan wants to cut drastically the welfare state, when in reality his plan does not do that. At the moment, his plan just removes the wild, unsustainable plans moving forward by Obama! You will be told otherwise. Get informed and refute those who are promoting the lies being told out there.The truly homeless and poor, sick and needy, will not be coldly tossed aside.
Those on or about to go on Social Security will not be affected. Get informed and cease soaking up the lies being promulgated by those who in truth want to continue down the current road to diasaster. Know that the way things stand now with this administration, 700 BILLION dollars will be
stolen from Social Security to pay for Obamacare. Even if nothing is done to any of these programs. all will go down the sewer regardless of Obama.
We are broke and ready to go over the financial cliff. Romney and Ryan tell the truth of the matter in staight talk. By taking tough measures now we can come back from the brink that Obamacare, et al has the country poised to fail. Get informed and vote with intelligence and fortitude. We must bite the bullet now or suffer the consequences of unbridled spending. Do not fall for the class warfare this Administration is planning on winning with.

I would be interested in knowing if liberal Catholics who criticize Paul Ryan also feel compelled to comment of on the tax burden placed upon us by liberal Catholics—Pelosi, Durbin, Cuomo, Leahy, Daschle, Kerry and the holy grail of every Kennedy who has ever served in office?  We are in debt because of over spending and for the hordes of wasteful liberal programs which produced little benefit of which we can no longer afford.  The reality is the budget needs severe cuts.  Saying the poor must now starve as a result of Paul Ryan’s ideas is insanity.  As was mentioned by someone earlier, there are consequences for failing to follow biblical principles of sound financial management.  The United States is the most generous nation on earth, but the USCCB needs to rethink it’s position on open borders, the Dream Act and illegal aliens.  They and liberal Catholic DC politicians have no Vatican ordained right to impose an increasing tax burden upon American citizens.  Let us also not forget Sen Christopher Dodd (D-CT)—and Catholic—Chairman of the Banking Committee who should have seen all this debt coming.  Instead, now, with his lifetime taxpayer pension, he is busy fronting for all the big shots in Hollywood as chairman and lobbyist for the Motion Picture Association.

@Paul Francis who writes—“I hope Mr. Archbold eventually sees the error of his ways, or maybe he ought to consider one of the 20,000 Protestant sects available.”  I have been waiting for this comment.  When liberal Catholics on steroids have no defense, they always play the “Protestant” card. 

You’ve touched on nearly a dozen GOP talking points, ThirstForTruth.
Your post is full of emotion and fear (and lots of exclamation points!). Obama has “wild plans!”, “all will go down!”, “over the cliff!”.  Your post of promises, deceptions and threats could have been written by Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh.

This is the first day I’ve ever posted here (two posts now).  I will say that over the last 20 years, I have become ashamed to call myself “Christian”, due to the actions of those in politics who claim that mantle. I’ve become careful to only refer to myself as “Catholic”. It appears those with the loudest voices (i.e. m. forrest) are also forcefully influencing our community. Maybe, I soon won’t pass the political purity test of a “Neo” Catholic Church?
I won’t be posting here again. God bless.

Thirst for Truth (please pick a more appropriate title, you would not know the truth if it hit you over the head, try using Rip Van Winkle as a title, it is more fitting for someone who has been sleeping under a rock for the past 20 years)  Where were you when Bush & company and a Republican Congress and Greenspan of the Federal Reserve and Republican Congressmen from Texas removed all controls of Wall Street and many of us lost the bulk of our savings..and Bush and Cheney took us to war which cost USA taxpayers over one trillion dollors…where were you when Bush and c ompany were throwing away lives of our young military and billions of debt….You must of been asleep like Rip Van Winkle.I believe you are just plain invincible ignorant. Chuck R

I’ll take the bait once, before I forget that this website exists.
Liberal Catholics have “no defense”?
Your argument weighs a number, and it’s future ramifications, against real human pain and suffering. 

There’s in no need to debate the nuances of good and evil or right and wrong with me.  It comes from the heart.  The Ayn Rand (and NeoCon) philosophy is one of greed, one centered on self. It is neither good nor right. Toodles.

“There is no magic debt number upon which the sky falls.”

Tell that to Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy…...

The political right asks us to abandon the poor and suffering, now, today, to look the other way, for fear of some intangible future evil.  So much for the “birds of the air” I guess?  Be afraid, take now or you may not be able to later. We must take control of our destiny or all will be lost. I really am tired of arguments that come across as solely based upon greed and use fear as their only method of delivery. Our collective excuse will be that we let the poor starve because we were afraid.

@Paul Francis

1) “I find nothing compelling in Archbold’s argument”
- you are lying. Pat pointed out that an increase is not a cut and to call it a cut is wrong.  You are either lying or blinded by your obvious party affiliation.

2) “find many of his statements baseless, callous and offensive. There is no magic debt number upon which the sky falls.”
- It is IMMORAL to pass debt on to your children and the following generations.  That was stated by the pope.

@Paul Francis
“The political right asks us to abandon the poor and suffering, now, today, to look the other way, for fear of some intangible future evil.”

Another LIE.

Ryan has submitted a budget that MAINTAINED the spending for the poor.

Your repeated LIES do not change that fact.  What you are doing is bearing false witness and you need to examine your behavior.

Debt restricts the government from using its abilities to help anyone. What we pay in interest way exceeds the so called “cuts” in the Ryan budget. For Catholic Christians social justice shoud not equal socialism. I think the bishops have missed that distinction.

@Charles Radloff

“Where were you when Bush [] removed all controls of Wall Street and many of us lost the bulk of our savings”

Do you mean when Barny Frank and Chris Dodd forced banks to make unsecured loans in the name of “social justice”? Or do you mean when Bill Clinton took over Freddie and Fannie and allowed them to use taxpayer money to insure loans?  Maybe you mean when Reagan deregulated banks and allowed them to run banks and investment companies.  Regardless, you need to be more specific, because Bush did nothing of consequence in banking or wall street regulation.

Comparison of the largest, richest nation int he world to Greece or Portugal is comparing apples to orangles. But, much of the crisis in Europe is due to the severe austerity measures enacted.  Contraction reduces revenue, requiring additional contraction; a vicious circle. “Cut, Baby, Cut!” is what took Spain to 24% unemployment.

There is a lot of hate here (it permeates the far right). I’ve said there was no base for the bloggers argument, that he offended me, I accused another of posting deceptive right-wing talking points. I’ve called no one a liar or ignorant at a personal level.  This seems much less a “Catholic” website, than it seems a NeoCon site attempting to recruit Catholics.

@Paul Francis
“But, much of the crisis in Europe is due to the severe austerity measures enacted.”
- Hahahaha, you should study economics.  Austerity was put in place after debt exceeded 100% of GDP.  In Greece the people did not want to cut any benefits. They rioted to demand no cuts to their free cell phones and govt subsidized coffee.  Some austerity.

There is not hate here, there is love of the truth. If you cannot use the truth in your arguments then do not whine when that is pointed out.

BTW, the comparison to other smaller countries is normalized based on % of GNP.  Do you not understand that? Also with the USA govt as the lender of last resort, it actually is more important for us to be solvent than Greece or Spain.

@ThirstForTruth
Thank you for your post. “You will hear all through-out this campaign,the falsity that Ryan wants to cut drastically the welfare state, when in reality his plan does not do that.”
This is the Truth - whether you use exclamation points or call the Obama increases wild.
—-
Pat’s original point was that there is no CUT, no abandoning the poor.
When someone says cut or abandoning the poor - They are wrong.
I’m sorry if the word lie is offensive to people but facts are facts and I’ve read several posts where people lied calling the spending levels “cuts” when in fact there are no “cuts”.
People who do this are either mindlessly regurgitating propaganda put out by liars or are willfully lying themselves. No level of outrage at being called a liar will change the fact.  If you were mistaken, then admit it, but do not claim false outrage.

@ Charles Radloff….Where was I? Well, I wasn’t being hood-winked by the National Catholic Reporter nor media pundits on MSNBC…an experience that seems to have left you totally bloated with the lies of the left!
It is amazing that you think that old worn out shibboleth “It’s Bush’s fault” is still catching fire! Keep that one up and see where this election ends up! The power of darkness is never going to overtake the
goodness of light…that is why I will still continue to be thirsty for truth while those of you on the progressive liberal left will still be in knots in an effort to thwart and hide it. Good luck! I think it is well past time here to say good-night! Pat’s point has been received well and debated fairly by those who are open to honest enlightenment. The others? Well, as I said, good luck.. and don’t trip and hurt yourself trying to find the exit.

I quote from Paul Ryan “We can’t help the poor if we are poor.”

We are all poor!!!! There are no jobs!!!! We must find jobs… We must get America back on its feet…. We must have jobs for our men and women.  We must have focus on jobs and career education in our schools- helping our students to develop skills and training them in careers according to their God given talents… not just hand outs….  This is not happening.

I am delighted that we have Paul Ryan….. He is certainly in my prayers.  The nation needs Paul Ryan as a VP for Mitt Romney…
God bless.

And God bless America…. as we can begin to smile again…..as the clouds are being lifted….

@Paul Francis who writes—“The Ayn Rand (and NeoCon) philosophy is one of greed, one centered on self.”  Sorry Charlie.  Taxes aside, the first 10% of one’s provision already belongs to God.  It’s only considered “giving” when the bar reaches 11%.  I have no problem sleeping at night. 

Pat Archbold on Sunday, Aug 12, 2012 10:45 AM (EST) asked: “Would somebody please point me to the Church document that establishes that it is within the competence of the Bishop to make ex Cathedra pronouncements on the funding levels of wasteful government programs even if we have no money to pay for it?”**********************************

First, I write as a convert.  So I can only share what I have witnessed: I believe the special deference a Roman Catholic gives to any member of the clergy, be he deacon, priest, bishop, cardinal or pope, comes from a NEED to see these men as better, wiser and holier than we are.

We live vicariously THROUGH these men, that we have placed on pedestals.  We want to believe they know everything in a supernatural way, much more than we do. It is an across the board kind of knowledge about everything: war, finances, marriage advice, politics, what’s good & bad in life.

It’s why Catholics accept the “alter Cristi” teaching so readily about their priests.  They ARE Christ, to Catholics. We NEED them, or there is no church, remember?

There is a danger in taking that belief to the extreme, putting our clergy on pedestals (that we created).  We give deference.  They come to enjoy & expect it.  Many of them come to think they ARE better than the average person. So they will not admit to ever being wrong.  Therein lies the “ex cathedra” falacy about EVERYTHING.  It also gives these clergy a big head. It leads to pride, which can be fatal to the soul.

Men and women go to a priest for advice on marriage and family life, when they have *never experienced* that life for themselves, and all they know about it comes from either classes or from hearing confessions, where married couples come to them with problems, so rarely do they see the good and healthy side of familial relationships in confession.

When clergy need money, they go to the richest people in their parish, and they get what they need.  Sure, it may take them a few months of appealing - sometimes groveling, but they eventually get it.

A bishop in Silicon Valley raised $100 million dollars a few years ago.  He said one day that he said to himself in the mirror, “I want to raise $100 million.”  And he did.  Just like that. If he were an average layman, would he have been able to raise $100 million as easily?

Further, he said it was to build new parishes.  Yet, when a new parish was built, they took up second collections from all the diocese parishes for weeks, AND they got 3 wealthy parishes to “adopt” the new parish’s expenses for the next 3 years.  So what happened with the $100 million?

It serves as an example of how far bishops have strayed from what we know to be Scripture instructives.  So it is often the clergy that are the Cafeteria Christians, choosing to begin and end at helping the needy (with your money).

If Rome wants to help the needy, how about selling Castle Gandolfo, the pope’s summer castle, and opening up part of the Vatican to help working parents for daycare, and using a section of it for homeless, for the aged, how about caring for ELDERLY nuns that taught our clergymen? How many fine paintings are needed in Rome?

How about getting our priorities in order.  When our bishops go to Rome for their ad limina visits, they bring tons of cash with them, funding the Vatican and its wealth.  Maybe the US bishops can ask for some of it back, to help the US economy?

@Paul Francis:  [“Our collective excuse will be that we let the poor starve because we were afraid.”]  I see you are reduced to dragging up quips of burned out 1980’s rhetoric used by the (Rev?) Jesse Jackson.  Clearly, you and Obama’s Catholic Rasputin (David Axelrod) are financially immune to the enormous burden on taxpaying Catholic families trying educate their children in Catholic schools and plan for tuition costs even at the state college level.  You guys just kill me running around trying to play Catholic “thought” police.

@Terah James
A few thoughts:
1) The head of the church is Jesus Christ who leads his church though the Holy Spirit.
2) I respect the bishop on two grounds. One it is his job as the leader of the diocese to manage the churches and priests.  This is a big job. The second is that as bishop as part of the Magisterium is to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit when making decisions. This does not mean that they can not be wrong or hasty in their comments. But they have hefty tasks.
3) We the people of the church are also part of the universal Magisterium as well, so we need to speak up when inspired by the Holy Spirit or when our God given reason allows us to see something the bishops may have missed.
4) The entire Vatican and properties could be sold off and would not raise even one Sunday’s collection of the churches in the US. So let’s stop this “the Vatican is rich fantasy”.  Also the Vatican on a weekly basis supports the poor and unemployed in Italy.
5) Priest are people. There are some good ones and some bad ones, some entirely selfless and some arrogant.  But I think your characterization of the priests thinking they are better than us (in my experience) is unfounded.
6) wrt the silicon valley priest are you saying he stole money? Please report this if it is true, but I think you are stating innuendos (gossip) that are dangerous for you and damaging to the church if not.
—-
Finally let me state again - the wealth of the US churches is overwhelming compared to the Vatican. You are just wrong here. Also we Catholics in the USA are NOT so generous. The majority of OUR catholic charities money and the majority of Catholic Relief Services funds are hand outs from the US govt, not generous Catholics. My suggesting is look into what I’ve said and verify it is true. If so, you need to start influencing the PEOPLE of Christ’s church to be more generous.

It is so disturbing that the Bishops correctness now falls to party lines.  If you’re a Democrat, the bishops are wrong about fighting with the government over birth control and marriage equality.  If you’re a Republican, the bishops are wrong about critiquing Paul Ryan’s budget and the Iraq war.  There are so many examples of this.  Sure, layout the reasons, layout the arguments, but its just excuses.  That Catholicism in the US is unquestionably tied to the two American political parties is so sad to me.

@John:  Agreed.  Good comment.  Thank you.  One writer suggested the Bishops focus more on preaching the gospel—not inventing the “social” gospel.  People who follow Christ are not stupid.  When a man “hears” and “reads” the gospel,—he knows in his heart what that means and how to live.

1) No one ‘stole’ anything that I know of, but there is a lack of accountability regarding where the funds were spent, or where the money is now.  There is just no transparency at all. No outside parties are brought in, so a person can KNOW where their money went.  The state wouldn’t get involved in that.  Church goers give their money, and trust that it will be handled properly.  But there is no guarantee.

I find it odd that few question where the $100 million dollars went, and why there was a need to ask for MORE money, for a project that was to have come under the purview of the money that was raised.

But there is a “no questions asked” policy from Catholics I know.  In fact, even questioning the bishop/bishops will bring a look that implies these people never considered the idea of questioning the clergy.  It’s just not done.  You said it best: it’s like questioning the Holy Spirit.

2) Regarding the Vatican: it has been in the news that the United States and Germany are the two biggest contributors to the Vatican.  I couldn’t figure out where Germany got its money.  But it was in the news last year that the German bishops have a publishing company that lay people have been complaining about for years, because they publish pornography.  It was only when the lay people brought their story to the secular press, that the bishops said they would try to do something about it.  A lot of money is made from porn.  They may still be publishing it, now that the story is no longer in the news.  Even the National Catholic Register reported on this, I think.

@Terah James (Satan)
I meet people like you an a rare basis.  People who pretend to be Catholic and spread lies among the faithful.
1) Every parish I have ever been in has a lay person do the books so I now doubt the voracity of your first “story”.
2) With all the German cars on the road and knowing they have bailed out most of Europe yet you “wondered” where they got the money?  Please, that is so incredible on it’s face that the rest of what you said had to be a lie.
3) German dioceses invest their retirement etc. in stock.  One of the funds they had money in was a multi-billion dollar publisher and media group.  When the Vatican found out that this group also published pornographic material, he asked the German bishops to divest - which they have all done.
——
You are clearly reading anti-Catholics web sites and trying to spread lies among the faithful, please stop and go back into your hole.

Pat, I agree with your article.  I can’t believe people think this government can just keep spending and spending.  If it continues, no one will have anything.  The loyalty with the Democratic party also baffles me.  This party is no longer the party of the past that supposedly cared for the poor.  It just wants to entrap the poor to get their votes.  How can a Catholic support a party or a president that supports abortion, even partial birth abortion, so called same sex marriage, and other evils that are against Church teaching? If you care about the poor, give to all the thousands of charities out there.  I probably should not say this but I notice so many Catholics in church that never give anything in the collection box.  A priest I know once said in a homily that Catholics were very stingy as compared to Protestants. Recent studies also have shown that conservatives are more generous than liberals.  That’s because liberals want the government to take care of the poor.  I’m all for the really poor that can’t work but I think if you can work you just get a job.  However, that’s hard to do with an administration that’s hurting small business with their policies.  I support Paul Ryan and I hope he will be our Vice President one day.  We need someone that can be a realist and tell people the truth about what’s happening in this country.

Terah James….Do you by any chance belong to the LCWR? You reflect about as much Catholic teaching as most of them! If you are a Catholic (convert)
how did you pass your RCIA program with both feet still firmly planted in the Protestant Church. Just for kicks, tell us what DID attract you to Catholicsm? If anything at all.
Just FYI…the Pope can no more sell Castel Gandolfo or the treasures of the Catholic Church than Obama can sell the White House, the National Art Museum, etc. even though it might seem a good way to pay off the colossal debt he is managing to run up. Many Protestants seem to writhe in envy over the so called treasures of the Church.
Your suggestion that the Bishop’s Ad limina visits are for the purpose of bringing cash from the USA to Rome is
simply a clever invention long peddled by Chick Pulications and other ilk like yourself. Shame on you for coming on this website to spread your venomous lies in the name of truth and innuendo of such.  There are special places reserved in the hereafter for people like you and I will give you a hint: you won’t need your snowboots!

Rob-
Just ignore Tara - she’s one of those trolls who show up on a regular basis. You can count on her coming out of her lair to sow seeds of discord - always hit & run. It’s impossible to engage her in intelligent discourse. But you can count on one thing, she’ll have to answer to God one day for all of the trash and lies she spews around.

As Jimmy Aiken alway says, “Don’t feed the trolls”.

“Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.”
Matthew 7:6

HEAR YE, HEAR YE..For the information for subscribers of National Catholic Register!!
By a stroke of misfortune I happened to see on the internet the Catholic Register article above and observed the very unchristian like controversy about the article…AND YOU CALL YOURSELFS CATHOLIC??
Were you at Mass today??? if so please recall the second reading…for those of you who skipped Mass or have poor recall(or were not paying attention) here is the message:
“ANY BITTERNESS, BAD TEMPER, SHOUTING OR ABUSE MUST BE REMOVED FROM YOU..AND EVERY KIND OF MALICE.

BE GENEROUS TO ONE ANOTHER, SYMPATHETIC, FORGIVING EACH OTHER AS READILY AS GOD HAS READILY FORGAVE YOU

AS GOD’S DEAR CHILDREN THEN TAKE HIM AS YOUR PATTERN AND FOLLOW CHRIST BY CARING FOR OTHERS AS HE CARES AND LOVES YOU”
Today while reading the caustic and unchristian exchange between readers of the Register I am happy I stopped reading the Register many years ago when I realized the Register was not interested in informing Catholics, rather serve as the House Media agent..keep the laity in the dark.
Please do your self a favor and review the comments and accusations you have made about one another…shame on you and you call yourself Catholics???
Do your self another favor…learn from a qualified and trutful source what is going on in the Church…subscribe to the NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER, and become an informed Christian…not a babling, uniformed sorehead.
Peace, Chuck Radloff

@Charles Radloff

I forgive you troll - now get back under the bridge.

Thirst For Truth; WOW! Did you hit the ball straight over the deepest centerfield wall in all of Major League Baseball with your post above. I especially loved your point about the converts coming into the Church holding on to many of their old (hell, I’ll just call them what they are, cheap Damn Republican Yankee prejudices and excuses for justifying their “I’ve got mine, see ya latter” attitude. Add to that, the rising number of conservative Catholics who are becoming much like the Kansans written about in “What’s Wrong With Kansas” who pull the lever by the same old jerks who’ll do them in every time. All they have to hear is “Well, one day you might become wealthy, and do you want your money to support [those people] on disability, welfare, kids, even American-born children of illegal aliens, those “anchor-babies” getting this or that benefit and free rides in college?”
  I wonder how the Native Americans feel when they hear the term “anchor babies” tossed around in Tea Party conversations like manhole covers. When I came back into the Catholic Church, out of an evangelical milieu I felt was too conservative and oppressive in many respects, notwithstanding Protestantism’s “big selling point” of respecting individuals’ rights to exercise their own judgment on matters outside of the basic tenants of the faith commonly agreed to in the Apostles Creed. (Can’t find any “safer” Creed for Catholics, and Protestants and Protestants and ... so forth to “agree on.” LOL)
  What a naif I must’ve been. It’s not enough to loyally attend Mass, believe in the tenants of the Catholic faith and practice them daily. Oh not, not with the rising number of neo-ultra-montanes who are starting to flex their muscles in greater numbers and places of influence. Hey, if Newt becomes Catholic, put on your CDs of Handel’s “Thine be the victory” and his “Halleluliah” chorus. (What’ll they do if Ann Coulter comes in? I really don’t want to know, nor do I think most sensibly moderate to conservative Catholics as well. Liberal Catholics will probably be rushing to the first red door Episcopal parishes they can find. And I can hear the same ilk singing similar Te Deums, etc. for Newt, Laura Ingraham, et al practically bellowing if Leggy Ann gets a walk in. BELIEVE ME, if Newt’s entrance serves as precedent, hell, Coulter will get a coronation of sorts. And most undeservedly so!
  This is what’s happening within the supposedly “traditional” or more conservative wing of the Church Catholic over here. If Rome’s not happy with this development within the lay ranks of the Church here, it knows the laity are being misled by too damn many ideogues they’ve been listening to, especially on that idiotic Faux “News” racket.
  I never thought the day would come when I’d actually consider joining the Episcopalians, notwithstanding some of their stands on very hot-button issue. Given what I’m watching occur within the Church Catholic in the United States, with so many of the most arrogant, self-serving and down-right ideologically and socioeconomically selfish lot of converts coming into the Church. Like their hero Mittens, they won’t divulge much about their real agendas ... that stuff’s for private discussions only, tsk tsk, any more than Mitt will tell the truth about his taxes and how he got Bain Capital up n’ running with funding he received from some “whoms” we should all be wary about. BUT, like the Saloon Madame who “got religion” one day, brought her newly converted gals with her and didn’t just ask to joing the choir the following week. Oh no, they came in, demanded to run the damn choir and got their way.
  While watching “conservative” Catholic Americans fawning over the choice of Paul Ryan, long a devotee of one of Catholicism’s most bitter enemies, Ayn Rand, all I could say to my self is, “Suckers.”

I have a good idea.  Let’s squeeze every piece of information we get, including official USCCB statements and opinions, into the prexisting prism of our rigid belief.  That way, we never have to take into account, you know, actual realities such as that there are actual, useful government programs that use tax dollars for good things.  Anytime anyone, including the leaders of our Church, say anything that does NOT fit with our prexisting prism of rigid belief, we will rationalize and dismiss to the best of our ability.  Because certainly it could NOT be that WE may need reconsider any of OUR beliefs or opinions.  And please, pay no attention when we accuse those other guys of doing the same thing.  It’s just that they don’t have the Truth as we have it.  We’ll pray for them that someday they get the Truth as we have it, then we can all be happy Republ… er, Catholics.

@richard

Gosh if I switch the words “reality” for “Truth/belief” in your sarcastic paragraph I can see that you are just a hypocrite.

What you claim to be reality (truth beyond discussion) is really just your belief isn’t it.  But others people view is distorted, rationalized “rigid belief”.

@Steven Barrett:  I think you went way over the edge with my comment and
totally missed my point which was basically directed towards Terah James who appears to have been one of those “trolls” who come on Catholic websites with the sole purpose of trashing our beliefs and traditions.
Nowhere could it be contrued to be an attack on either Conservatives or Republicans.
It is obvious from your lengthy discourse you used my comment as a spring-board to spew your hatred for all things Conservative and in particular Paul Ryan. I did decry the fact that in far too many instances RCIA programs have not effectively instructed the catechumens nor adequately prepared them to become fully Catholic. Some have actually been misinformed and misled during preparation by people without adequate credentials for undertaking this important mission.
What you have done here is both disingenuous and un-Christian and gives credence to the feeling that many comments on Catholic websites are lacking in both charity and Christian import.

Steven Barrett

“While watching “conservative” Catholic Americans fawning over the choice of Paul Ryan, long a devotee of one of Catholicism’s most bitter enemies, Ayn Rand, all I could say to my self is, “Suckers.” “
*****************
Is he actually a fan?

@ Kathleen…A re-sounding NO! This is just one of the lies being
put forth from the prevaricating machine known as the DNC. There
will be many, many more as this is their modus of operation. Throw
a boatload of mud, and some of it will stick! Don’t be a stooge! Get
informed! i suggest going to Breitbart.com and seeing the full story there on the history of Ryan and Rand…it is one more instance of the Left taking something out of context. Also see the National Review on same subject. While like many educated people growing up Ryan read Rand and while not a devotee of her philosophy (she was an aetheist)he found some of her ideas attractve. But he firmly denies being an objectivist and claims rather the philosophy of Aquinas for his epistological views. Again, this is an issue meant to distract from the miserable Obama record.
Again, get informed. Try ‘googling’ the subject on the Ryan/Rand topic
and you will see both Breitbart and National Review websites(as well as
some strictly devoted to promoting the Left slant)and find out the facts.

ThirstforTruth ,
Thanks for the explanation. I like Paul Ryan a lot but hadn’t heard of the Ayn Rand thing before.

I was really taken aback by this article.  I’ve been a fiscal conservative my whole adult life, but last I checked, oppression of the poor is one of the sins that cries out to heaven for vengeance.  Not saying this amounts to “oppression”, but the facile way in which Mr. Archbold dismisses the Bishops’ concerns stank of elitism. Additionally, such a stance lends indirect power to those who advocate population control as a means of putting our financial house in order.  See, if we just had less people to feed… etc

The public debt bomb, was in a large way created by those of us in the middle class during the housing melt-up, not to mention the follow-on actions by the Federal Reserve. If debt is the problem, the moral high road is to cut funding for the poor?  Are we that faithless a society, that we perceive God will punish us for tending to the weakest instead of cutting the national debt—which, by the way, is beyond repair? Are we that hypocritical that we’ll pontificate on the evil of debt while we’re communicating on our debt-funded smartphones and tablets?

I fundamentally agree that it’s better for faith-based organizations to handle these things, but the fact is, we’re not—at least not on the scale that the gov’t has gotten involved.  So I think castigating the USCCB here is imprudent.  First and foremost, because reducing funding will do almost nothing to cure the ever-expanding national debt, while at the same time, violating our societal obligation to provide necessities to the poor. Secondly, we have to decide if we’re serving mammon or serving God. The immorality of debt is FAR outweighed by the immorality of cutting funding to the poor when there are umpteen other ways to reduce spending in areas that don’t harm the weak among us. For example—paring back the monstrous bureaucracy in Washington (DHS, Energy, Labor,IRS). As for the fiscal cliff, it would probably be wise to remember that the poor are already living at the bottom of that chasm. 

I’ll stick with the authentic magisterium—the bishops—here, and not this parallel, self-appointed magisterium of EWTN, The National Catholic Register, and Mr. Archbold, whose credentials in theology are…?

@David…the dichotomy is NOT between the authentic Magisterium and the other elements you mention i.e. EWTN, THE NCRegister,nor Mr Archbold.
All these are staunch supporters of the Magisterium. There is not even a whisper of this anywhere in Mr Archbold’s blog.
The dichotomy seems to lie within some of the comments being made about
what sort of allegience an authentic Catholic owes to his Church and the hierarchy in order not to step over the line between faithfulness and simple blind obedience where none is required. Mr Archbold does not step over this line when he objects to the political stance *some* bishops have taken against the Ryan Plan, which is not the last I knew part of the dogma of the Church. It is a matter of prudential judgment being discussed here, not eternal truth. Get informed about matters of faith and stop being so judgmental.

In the 60’s, the Bishops aligned themselves with the liberal social Democrats and activism of the Kennedys.  The Kennedy guilt was driven by their enormous ill gotten wealth made by Joe Sr. in illegal boot-legging and then exiting the market just in time before the Wall Street crash of 1929.  It’s interesting what’s happened to all of them since —“the sins of the father will be visited upon the sons down to the third and fourth generation.”  All the liberal social programs coming from Kennedy and Johnson’s “Great Society” have produced little compared to the billions spent including the rise of encouraging poor women to have children out of wedlock.  We could afford that kind of spending then.  This is no longer possible.  Let’s cut the Obama-Axelrod demonizing of Ryan.  No poor person seeking food is going to starve and no one incapable of helping themselves will be tossed out in the streets.  The segment of Bishops who have socialism as their priority would be wiser to re-examine their calling.  Jesus was compassionate, but He assuredly was not a socialist.  Prior to starting His ministry, He worked to earn His way and support His mom.  He lived by Old Testament principles since He authored them.

The Pope, himself, is infallible only when speaking ex-cathedra on matters of faith and morals.  I never learned anything about the bishops being infallible on economics.  Their positions, which have gotten them in difficult positions now, are the result of becoming entwined with government subsidies.  We aren’t required to consult the bishop prior to entering the voting booth, but we are required to become very well informed on the realities of both sides of the argument.  In some cases that now requires a shovel.

“Hatred”? Excuse me if in my desire to make a point or two, I offended you. But my remarks were hardly motivated by hatred of any person or persons; just a disgustingly snotty bunch of people who think they know it all and presume they have the rights to come in and tell the old timers what a bunch of retrograde thinkers they’ve been all the years they’ve been in the Church for not coming up to speed with the new neo-catholic movement. Call me disgusted, and dismayed, but lay off the “hatred stuff,” unless you want to start resembling the ilk working within the bowels of Madison Avenue on behalf of their new Madmen masters who are busily nodding to their masters cutting checks as fast as their hands can do the job to keep up with the new demands brought forth by the Supreme Court, including one Justice who had the gall to pull a (more polite) version of Joe Wilson’s “You Lie” line against President Obama the year before.
I hate bad ideas, bad politics and bad governance. I don’t hate people.

Questions on the table in this blog are two-fold.
1) Is it alright to question our bishops and are Catholic bishops ever wrong, collectively, about anything?  To both, I say: yes.
2) Will Paul Ryan be a good VP for Mitt Romney?  I say: yes!

Ryan is 100% Pro-Life, with 78 votes out of 78 votes, for putting his Pro-Life votes where convictions he shares in speeches are.  He is a fiscal conservative, with the experience President Obama never had.

Ryan has a good plan for financial stewardship, and a vision to implement the plan.  He is a man with integrity.  If Ryan wasn’t running for VP, he’d make a great and trustworthy bishop.

I hope Catholics, other Christians, and all God-fearing Americans will listen to him.  This election is a cross-roads for our country.  Romney made an excellent choice.  He’s the best (Catholic) politician that’s been in leadership, since Rick Santorum (another man I respect).

[“He’s the best (Catholic) politician that’s been in leadership, since Rick Santorum”]  On Catholicity alone, any Catholic politician Nancy Pelosi is against deserves our support.  As Obama keeps saying:  “We tried their policies before and they didn’t work.”  Of course, he is referring to Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House.  How many times was she taken to the woodshed by the USCCB?  One time only—by the Archbishop of Denver, CO.  And not by her Archbishop in the City of St. Francis.

ALL that above said, I don’t recall that Jesus told Peter to go get a lip-lock on Caesar’s posterior so that Caesar would feed Jesus’ sheep!  Subsidiarity is not honored by ignoring it.

I’m curious, when did Christians become compelled to support charity through taxation?

Thirst for Truth wrote: “I did decry the fact that in far too many instances RCIA programs have not effectively instructed the catechumens nor adequately prepared them to become fully Catholic.”
************************************************************
TfT and others that have questioned my veracity as a convert:

What do you mean by “fully Catholic”?  Does that mean we must look the other way, and not speak up, when we know something is wrong?  We are not to have an opinion about anything at all?  That is “Fully Catholic”?

I converted to Roman Catholicism prior to the worldwide revelations that show our Catholic bishop’s policies and procedures for handling clerical sexual abuse under their purview so closely resembled that of Penn State officials.

Does any die hard Catholic on this blog not see a similarity between Penn State and how our institutional church handled the same problem?  If so, please explain to the rest of us, in a charitable and adult fashion, one in which you use words and reasoning.Please do not resort to name-calling and labels that are not befitting of a Christian. I am not a troll.

My family of origin is non-Catholic Christian.  My mother was not happy, when I became Catholic.  As a result, I am painfully aware of news throughout the world, that reports on what ails our church, and I mean news printed in diocesean newspapers, and from other Catholic media sources.

I am surprised by how many Catholics I know that disregard their own diocesan newspapers.  I also read Our Sunday Visitor, along with the NC Register (it’s the NC Reporter that can be liberal). The Register is balanced.

Not recognizing these issues is like ignoring cancer, pretending it does not exist.  I am grateful for this forum, for being able to address how much allegience bishops are given, just because of their position, in a candid and adult fashion.  Bishops can be wrong - and we need to be able to speak up to the institutional church, freely, and without fear.

Regarding what I remembered about Germany & the porn publishing company:
Thank you, Rob, for writing, “When the Vatican found out that this group also published pornographic material, he asked the German bishops to divest - which they have all done.”  I did not remember the outcome, and I am grateful that the bishops heeded the Vatican’s request.

Jimmy Aiken wrote a story about it last November 2011, www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/german-bishops-publish-porn

Kathleen:  Now you and Dave Gilmer are getting to the heart of all this.  The trend I see in my parish is that Catholic giving is so little because they view the taxes they pay as their “giving” since the government takes care of the needy.  I have considered the USCCB does not like the Ryan plan due the a potential threat to the bureaucracy of Catholic Charities being cut and loss of Catholic jobs.  This whole idea of the “socialist” gospel is unbiblical and unapostolic.  The Bishop’s role is to preach the unadulterated and uncompromised gospel not fuse it with Marxism.  That might work for Benedict in Europe, but this does not wash with the American ethos.  We’ve already seen how much the church is in rapid decline in Europe.  It’s time for Catholics to step up themselves with Christian charity.  Defunding of Catholic Charities and all manner of other giveaways should lighten the taxpayer burden enabling greater giving at the local parish and diocesan level.  I’d hate to see the USCCB become liken to the SEIU riots in Madison fighting against Gov. Walker.

New Observer ,
If all Catholics tithed ten percent imagine what we could do.

Right on!!!! both New Observer and Eileen regarding the propriety of Mr Archbold’s blog! You both have clearly stated the case for his right and duty to speak up in these matters entered into by the USCCB.

It will be very interesting to see how supportive the more politically minded Bishops now become toward our one and only truly practicing Catholic on the ticket, Paul Ryan! Already some have expressed disdain for real Catholic social policy by denigrating the Ryan plan. Individually they do have the right to disagree, but collectively they cannot support the Catholic social principle of subsidiarity and at the same time criticize the Ryan plan. Jut not possible to do both!

Time will tell but I think we will find, as a group, the Bishops treating Paul Ryan, our truly Catholic candidate, with far less support than they did the “fake” Catholic Kennedys’ or even the neo-catholic Pelosi, Biden et al if they follow the history of their political past. Definitely they swing toward the Dems every time. And why not? Many of our Catholic Institutions (like Catholic Charities and many Catholic universities and colleges)have now become an arm of the currently Democratic controlled government since taking millions of government dollars. Politically the Catholic Church has been bought and sold to the government thanks to the acquiesence and support of the USCCB for lots more than 30 pieces of silver. However the effect is the same! They’ve killed the Christ again! The government dictates now just how far religion may enter into the market place in general..and just how the Catholic Church now will practice the tenets of faith outside the Church walls. Shame on the USCCB for encouraging and supporting the party that led to this outrage. It will be interesting to see how Cardinal Dolan squirms through the up-coming Al Smith Dinner which has always been just another prop by some prominent Catholic-hierarchy-for the Dems. Obama will use this to support his *Catholics for Barack*  movement as he did in ‘08!and we will have the spectacle again of the good Cardinal pleading betrayal.
Through the Bishops’handling of the clergy sex scandal our Church has become spiritually bankrupt! Now through the Bishops political involvment with the Democratic party they will finish the Church off financially with the HHS mandate tax.  And then truly, who will help the poor in both senses, spiritually and financially? Obama and friends?

Kathleen:  Indeed!  Tithing is not just some Old Testament protocol.  The only time in the Bible where God asks man to “test” Him is in Malachi 3: 7-10.  Genesis speaks of “Seed time and harvest.”  Luke 6:38 says “Give and it shall be given unto you. . . ”  Where did we get the idea that somehow God cannot be taken at His word?  When you give God the tithe, that 10% already belongs to Him.  It’s not giving until you exceed 10%.  If the full tithe was good enough for Abraham it should be good enough for us.  (Unless you really don’t trust what He says). I spoke to one man 3 years ago on this after Mass.  He told me “But Abraham wasn’t Catholic.”

No…but Abraham didn’t have to worry about the USCCB giving the funds to political organizations that support abortion like Acorn. The USCCB have shot themselves in the foot with all their political statements and misplaced compassionate alliances. I carefully pick and choose the Bishops I contribute to and no longer just write a check to just any organization calling themselves Catholic and never again to that thing called Bishops Relief or whatever. Too ambiguous! When we tithe it does not mean we have to send the $$ to just one place! Remember, give to what belongs to Caesar to Caesar and to God what is His is a good mantra to go by but one still has to use discernment and prudence. It all technically belongs to God is confusing though realistically speaking is true!

@ThristforTruth:  Correct.  Everything does not need to all go to one place.  We use discernment.

I forgot about ACORN - good point.  Further it will be interesting to see what Cardinal Dolan does when he breaks bread with Barack. I hope he has a plan, and his invitation is not just compromising or backing down.

I pray all bishops will get together, being on the same page & creating a dynamic leadership platform for Catholics to follow. The only way more priests will preach & teach courageously from the pulpit(issues only), is when Bishops (or more lay people) begin to politely demand it.

The past does not have to equal the future.  People in the pews, when equipped to know truth from error regarding what is God-honoring, will be an unstoppable force for healthy change in our country.

We now have a clear difference between Republicans & Democrats, with Democrats having officially made it known they support homosexual marriage, and ending the Defense of Marriage Act. (DOMA) If that doesn’t get a conservative Christian’s attention, I don’t know what will.

I applaud New Observer for engaging in dialog with friends after Mass - it gives everyone something to think about, instead of it being a Sunday obligation, something to check off of a list of things to do. We should all be able to speak about all aspects of our faith.

Tithing is foreign to many.  Yet, even Paul collected funds for believers in Jerusalem, picking it up & distributing to those in need, himself. So it’s most definitely in our church tradition - as is knowing exactly where the money is going!

Yes, ACORN.  The USCCB gave ACORN big time Catholic $ for voter registration initiatives in inner cities.  You can be sure they were not registering as Republicans.

Ok ThirstforTruth. I realize that you and many others on these boards have an intense hatred for the Kennedys. Please remember while you’re busy bashing the them, that in spite of their less than perfect lives ALL of them have dedicated their lives to public service for our country in one capacity or another.Joseph,Jr was a war hero who gave his life for his country during a bombing raid over Germany during WWII,John F. Kennedy was a decorated WWII Naval hero who saved his comrades from the Japanese in the Solomon Islands, and Robert fought hard against organized crime.  He and Robert both took a bullet in the head because they believed with all their hearts what was good and just about America. Whatever wrongs they did or scandals they were involved in, they have been judged accordingly

CeCi:  It’s not hatred.  It’s a reality that the familiy not be canonized by the church.  You conveniently failed to mention Teddy and all the Kennedys in office in the last generation.  Ted was there for 40 years.  He and the others in office did nothing to help end abortion and Ted continually voted to confirm abortion rights justices for the Supreme Court.  Ted also threw Joan under the bus turning her into an alcoholic and then divorced her to marry Victoria all the while currying favor with Catholic leaders especially in the Boston Archdiocese.

Much of this discussion of tithing and having money misdirected by the USCCB and Catholic Charities, not to mention the government,  misses a vital point.  Tithing need / should not be only money given to the Church.  Personally, I give only to my parish to cover expenses plus the diocesan “tax”.  Anything beyond that I give directly to the charities.  Most goes to an evangelical K-12 school, a Catholic high school, a private college (Hillsdale) which eschews all government funding, Children International, Salvation Army for specific disasters, a couple of monasteries, and (this year) a couple of Coptic parishes in the NYC area for their efforts with recent refugees from the Moslem persecution of Christians in Egypt.  We are called to feed HIS sheep, not some (un)holy bureaucracy claiming to do so on our behalf.  We WILL be called to account for knowingly letting others squander our gifts.  Doing so is an insult to the Father and the free will He gave us.

CECI….I was not expressing hatred…just the record that is public for all to see now we know the real story hidden so long by those that wanted to “protect” the Kennedys including some of our prelates. It will be interesting to see if this sense of “loyalty” to our own will be extended to our Republican Vice Presidential candidate or if he will be held to a different standard.From what I have seen coming from the report put out
by the USCCB on the Ryan plan I doubt Ryan will get the same kind of backing even thought from all reports he is an exemplary Catholic.  Even though the Ryan plan fairly oozes with Catholic prinicple of subsidiarity it seems he will not be given
any special consideration within the Catholic realm which is not notably either Republican ( though they alone fight against Roe v Wade) or conservative. Just wondering…..

This piece is typical ReichsChurch screed, the kind one sees at this site with more than a little frequency. National Catholic Register embarrasses itself with trash like this and the torture supporting blog of Jimmy Akin. You may appear credible to those that hold themselves out as “orthodox” but who are actually Republicans first and Catholics as an after thought, but you don’t con me. Yours is a contaminated faux-Catholicism, one comfortable with aggressive war and the mind pollutants that accompany it. You ought to fold your tent.

It’s amusing to see many people who would accuse those Catholics who question Humanae Vitae as being “cafeteria Catholics” hunker up to the cafeteria line themselves when confronted with the Catholic church’s rich social justice teachings.

Every budget is a moral statement.  While admittedly a budget that awards massive tax breaks to billionares while gutting programs that serve the “least of our brothers and sisters” is certainly a type of moral statement, I seriously doubt that it ist one that Jesus would endorse.

Kathleen, I can’t thank you any more if I wanted to for your one sentence wrap up definition of the most all emcompassing excuse used by the cheapest of all the worst-cases of cheapskates who dare to call themselves Christians.
“I’m curious, when did Christians become compelled to support charity through taxation?”
Let’s all remember this sentence the next time a multimillionaire gets to write his or her horse on the income tax form. Maybe more of these kinds of write offs are why Romney refuses to divulge the rest: Even he’s too embarrassed. Hmmm, I wonder who keeps thinking we’re no longer living in the age of miracles.

@Colleen:  You’ve taken up drinking the Jim Jones (excuse me) “Axelrod” SEIU Kool Aid.  Ryan has not proposed “gutting” programs that serve the “least of our brothers.”  Have you heard that from his Pastor in Janesville?  I don’t see Eric Holder going after dead beat fathers who have mothers on welfare with 4 kids by 3 different men?  How about going after the men?  Reform of the Food Stamp Program is not immoral by eliminating beer, pet supplies and greeting cards at the Super Market.  But in your world, reform equals “gutting.”

Let’s not forget the darker periods in the history of the Catholic Church.  Could be we’re in one now where “social justice” translates into one bureaucracy (Church) getting another (increasingly tyrannical government) to tax (steal from) from individuals for the support of both bureaucracies resulting in often incidental and frequently incompetent help for the ostensible recipients!  It is time to get some control back at the local level and reduce the overall tax burdens on our people so we can give more to the poor, more directly.

@Steven Barrett:  Then, in fairness, you would not have a problem supporting a Consumption Tax and eliminate the Income Tax.  The rich spend more so they would be taxed more.  People who are disabled for life or incapable of helping themselves should always be cared for fully.  For others, however, are there no limits you place on government to do for and provide things for people?

Who is really attacking the poor. The party of abortion, sterilization, prayerless society, no more defense of marriage, right to die, unchecked immigration so low income jobs are taken. What party truly wants to lift up the poor with a healthy economy and not a small handout. Ask women if they would want a working husband or a check from Obama. Ask families if they would want a school voucher or tired tenured teachers caught up in union politics. Ask young people if they want free sterilization and condoms or the option to buy health insurance when they want to.  Ask seniors if they will be willing to forgo treatments because their quality of life expectancy is low. What party is attacking the poor?

Steven Barrett ,
Sorry, I’m kind of missing the point of your post.Maybe I’m just feeling the effects of the heat today & not processing well.
I don’t see any connection between voluntary Christian charity & involuntary taxation.Paying taxes is a a legal duty but not a virtue in itself.Considering how our tax dollars have been wasted in the past, I have no wish to pay any more than absolutely necessary.
I’ve read that something like 80 percent of funds designated for welfare are used up by bureaucracy & only 20 percent remains for the welfare recipients.Almost any church or private charity does better than that.
I don’t believe paying taxes is a corporal work of mercy, just a civil duty.We all use some type of tax write-off or deduction.It’s a legitimate option & part of the tax law, thankfully.

I am tired of being accused of not caring for the poor because I will not support the Marxist, Socialist “social doctrine” being touted by so many who consider themselves faithful Catholics. And that may include some of our Bishops who are really wolves in sheep clothing. We are NOT cafeteria Catholics. The “social justice” of the Gospels is anything but Socialist. We are not to leave the care of the poor to government bureaucracies and their “programs”. The care of the poor is the duty of individuals, families, churches, and other religious and private groups. If these works of mercy are turned over to the government, they ruin it, and take away our opportunities to give of ourselves to others as the Gospel asks of us.

Am I saying that all government programs should be abolished? NO! But they need reform, and we should not be taxed for these programs to the point that we are unable to give our money to those charities and persons that we see fit. When Jesus spoke of feeding and clothing the poor, etc., he was speaking to the people and to leaders of the synagogue, not to Caesar or Pilate.

Is it better to steal from a child to help the poor or work to eliminate poverty?

Now we are burdening present and future generations in unpayable debt.  That is theft.  (See 10 Commandments) 

Paul Ryan’s plan will reduce poverty itself, and improve the economy for EVERYONE so that we may be even more charitable to those in need.

So let’s see: Paul Ryan = fewer poor people.  Obama = more theft from our children and more poor.  As one of those “working poor” myself, I know which is morally correct.

All other arguments are off-point, and based on emotion.

The problem with the liberal mind is that is does not think beyond the next emotional step.  No thoughts of consequences or impacts.  Very knee jerk, “We MUST help THIS GUY, RIGHT NOW!” regardless of whether or not that will hurt many others.

Oh… to Ci Ci or whoever it was who claimed that Social Security is “Mine” (ranting a bit like Daffy Duck):  The fact is that most people will end up getting back TWO TO THREE TIMES what the pay into Social Security. 

How is that “yours”?

We are now seeing the emergence of “adults”—*maturing* in the faith and growing beyond childhood Catholicism which demands we bow down to anything promulgated or declared as a mandate by church leaders in the name of *the gospel.*  Such Catholics may be thought of as rebellious against our leaders.  For others, however, Spirit-filled with the gift of discernment are able to measure what the gospel says versus what “men” say.  Peter and Paul are great examples of this.  Lest we be accused of being Protestant in thought, discernment is not (sigh) private interpretation for the gift of the Holy Spirit is neither Catholic nor Protestant.  One person on this blog has already played the Protestant card when he had no defense of his position that the mind of Catholics must all turn to mush and follow some Bishops right off the economic cliff.  The Magisterium are human men all subject to failures and have flaws just like the rest of us.  Some have great leadership and wisdom while others are incompetent and have been appointed without any leadership skills at all.  The idea that one may possess expertise in Canon Law and the Liturgy does not translate to acumen attained at the Wharton or Stanford School of Business.  To those of you who attended Catholic grammar school (as did I for eight years) you may remember when the Bishop was coming to visit or Mother Superior from the “Provincial” or Mother house.  Lord in Heaven !!  The entire school was put on alert to have floors cleaned, windows washed and boys spit-shining their shoes after recess on the Ball field and to comb your hair. (Not sure what the girls were told).  It’s time we adults had *adult* relationships with our church leaders and not remain children.  They are only men.  The last ten years should have taught us that much.  Some are wise while others have adopted Marxist viewpoints which are contrary to the American ethos.  88% of the worlds missionaries come from the United States—both Catholic and Protestant.  As more taxation places an increasing burden upon us and our families the less charitable giving there will be for missions to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.  If you desire to yield so much money to government, I have not seen anything from Obama-Axelrod which budgets funding for foreign missions and the Obama people who will be trained to go and preach it “to all nations” as Jesus commissioned us to do.  It’s time some members of the USCCB re-thought their job description.

Help the poor in a bankrupt nation? Just look over to Haiti.

To Charles Radloff: Yikes! your anger and disgust for anyone not agreeing with you drips off your comments. You say to read THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REGISTER, Oh please. That is such a hate filled publication. I can see where you get your vehement anger. I don’t care to waste my time reading articles which have no basis in fact (Obama is the Pro-life candidate). The publication is garbage by ex-Catholics with many axes to grind. You get so angry you appear to be like a child. In my opinion, men that are conservative come across as stronger. They make their points clearly.  Learn from the posts by Rob and Bill Addams.

‘...beneath the dignity of the USCCB and was widely considered merely a product of that body’s reflexive leftist tilt.’ Where was their leftist tilt when the vatican went after the organization representing 80% of US nuns who serve the poor? Where was their dignity when they needed to clean up after the pedifile scandals? If the USCCB stands for anything what is it? The unborn, not living children who have been sodomized or live in poverty, or both. Good work, Bishops. Keep playing politics while Rome burns.

Is this the same group of bishops from the Cathoic Church, who supported ObamaCare? Even after given warning that there were contents in the legislation that would hurt people? And the same group that is now sueing the federal government for the same? And the same group that was warned of the inclusion of sterilization of young girls.       

Can anyone guess why I left the Catholic Church—- they sided and supported Pres. Obama in 2008, and encouraged every Catholic to vote for Pres. Obama. Every young girl who is convinced or forced to be sterilized and every baby that is murdered under Obama Care was a sin that was suppored by these bishops. This horrible president is destroying America and the bishops jumped on the train in 2008.

No more of my money will find its way into Catholic Church hands to be used to pay legal fees or restitution to families for the horrible sins/crimes of priests to little children.

Covetousness disguised as public policy is something the bishops shouldnt support.

Real Simple said: “The fact is that most people will end up getting back TWO TO THREE TIMES what the pay into Social Security”

That may have been true 30-40 years ago, but its far from true today. Thanks to Congress which has spent every dime and saved/invested none of your SS taxes, the younger you are, the more likely that you wont even get your principal back.

Do the math.

Real Simple: You just described the hypocrisy of the GOP in one very short passage above when you asked: “Is it better to steal from a child to help the poor or work to eliminate poverty? Now we are burdening present and future generations in unpayable debt.  That is theft.”

Well, you don’t have to take it from me, but would you consider what one man who was in Washington during all the time the GOP blew all the money Bill Clinton left behind ... right up to the present day: Bernie Sanders, Vermont’s Independent Senator. (Oh, yeah, I know some of you will snort n’ sniff, the “old socialist from the hippie state up north.” Well, it turns out that this “old socialist” happens to hold the record for being the longest serving independent Congressman/now Senator in the nation’s history. He didn’t last that long by turning Vermont from the Green Mountain State to the Red Republic of New England. Quite the opposite: He’s done far more to SAVE small businesses in his state than one of his fellow New England politicians who acted as governor in the state directly south of Vermont. Here’s what Sen. Sanders had to say about that former “governor’s” new best friend, Paul Ryan and his ilk for the lasting damage they did to our economy and the legacy of megadebt they fobbed off on our children’s generation and those to come after them.

““Our Republican friends are deeply, deeply concerned, as you know, about the deficit,” Sen. Bernie Sanders said, with a hint of sarcasm, during an interview Wednesday with radio host Ed Schultz. “If that’s the case, you might want to ask them why it was that when Clinton left office in January 2001, before Bush took office, we had a $236 billion surplus. And what was Paul Ryan’s concern about the deficit when he voted for the war in Iraq, and the war in Afghanistan? He forgot to pay for it. I didn’t hear any concerns about the deficit. Did you? And then he gave a trillion dollars in tax breaks to the top 2 percent over 10 years - didn’t worry about the deficit there.  He voted for the Medicare Part D prescription drug program written by the insurance companies and the drug companies - not paid for. So I find it somewhat hypocritical that these guys like Ryan, who are so worried about the deficit now that you’ve got to cut Medicare… destroy Medicare, make massive cuts in Medicaid, in education, force elderly people to pay more for prescription drugs because they are so worried about the deficit. But when it came to voting for tax breaks for the rich and wars, they weren’t worried about the deficit. ... I think you’ve got just an enormous level of hypocrisy there,” Sanders said.”

Bernie Sanders, who’s not Catholic is more in tune with our shepherds than so many of our ever stalwart self-styled “tradition-respecting” Catholics.

@Steven Barrett:  Please post your version of an IRS Tax Bracket % by Income level so we know what the hell you’re talking about.  Please define:  “Fairness.”

The greedy always have the advantage over the needy prior to the last judgment. The fact is that the Ryan budget and similar proposals prefer to cut back on programs for the poor (whether it’s a matter of cutting the programs or cutting back on increases) so as to provide tax cuts for the wealthy. Some bishops see that. Others prefer to do as European and South American bishops did: side with the aristocracy and lose the working class.

The rich get the break, the poor get the shaft in the Ryan budget.  Our national debt is not the cause of feeding and housing the poor.  Our national debt is not caused by educating and enabling people to improve their lives and find productive employment and thereby contribute toward the growth of our economy.  Our national debt is the result of our over spending in the wars we are fighting.  Our debt is the result of an unfair distribution of wealth giving unfair tax advantages to wealthy individuals and corporate interests which, in-turn are killing the middle class.  The Catholic Church needs to continue lobbying for social policies that will bring the poor out of their poverty and support economic policies to strengthen middle class families.  And, regarding the pro-life issues the Church would do better to stay out of legislation which is a black hole.  Instead time and resources would be better spent toward developing strong moral consciousness and educating families against abortion as an option. To educate families and promote natural birth control, and support community efforts to sustain and care for children and families when un-planned pregnancies occur.

Bravo Patrick Hutchings!!!

Patrick Hutchings,
It’s those same social policies that can keep folks impoverished & weaken the family structure.Welfare is good for a short term safety net,(my family benefitted from food stamps & Medicaid during a rough period),after that it might not have a positive effect on society.The 1965 Moynihan Report is worth reading.

New Observer: Just repeat over and over what Mitt Romney said about his 13 pct rate on all the millions of dollars he rakes in and YOU tell the rest of us what’s fair. Consumption taxes or similarly structured sales taxes always fall the hardest on the less well off, never mind the poor who really get socked when consider what ... let ‘s say dime extra sales tax on everything does to them. The wealthy would never feel the pinch. In fact, they’d be riding even further on the backs of those less well off an you damn well know it.
Don’t you or anybody who thinks like you, find it very fishy for a man who’s wanted to be president for the longest time (perhaps going all the way back to his father’s withdrawal in the ‘68 race) . . . would put a good amount of his money in oveseas tax shelters? Where do we draw the line on disloyalty to one’s country here? Or, psssst, is this one of those subjects we best not talk about according to the man who’s idea of the presidency seems to be reduced to yet another notch on his resume . . . as if it mattered?
I could go on and on . . . and you know it as well as anybody else who’s been watching this key issue in this race, economic fairness. Mitt Romney is nothing but a loyal tool of the propertied interests just as much as one of his predecessors, Gov. Bowdoin was when Shay’s Rebellion broke out in protest to the tactics used by the one percenter Mitt Romneys of his time.
Nice going GOP, you’re about to nominate a five-time draft dodger and God knows how many times tax dodger for president. And if your schemes to suppress the votes of minorities, the disabled, the elderly, voters in predominately liberal academic precincts and counties, succeeds to the point of helping you put your guy in the White House, what Mitch McConnell and his little clique of stuffed shirts did to Obama for the past 3 years is nothing like what the Democrats and for that matter, any decent patriotic citizen in or out of politics (save for the military) should do in return. JAM THE DAMN GOP RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS.

@Patrick H:  [“The Catholic Church needs to continue lobbying for social policies that will bring the poor out of their poverty and support economic policies to strengthen middle class families.”]  We’ve been doing this for the last 45 years of Kennedy’s legacy > Johnson’s “Great Society.”  Keeping poor people totally dependent upon the government —is this your wish?  The blind, disabled, injured and children of same parents are deserving of help and assistance.  No argument.  In your world you want everyone cared for by government from cradle to grave.

@Steven Barrett:  Supressing votes of minorities?  Do you support illegal or unregistered people voting?  Isn’t Chicago famous for dead people voting under the (Catholic) Daly Machine going back decades?  Obama’s team refuses to allow US Military sent overseas an extra 3 days when their deployment was unplanned.  49% of Americans do not pay any IRS tax, so what’s your beef?  Give us a #.  All Americans with income below “X” should be exempt from Income Tax.  I might surprise you and agree.  Just provide a # since no one knows what your baseline is.

New Observer; Do yourself an enormous favor: look at the actual number of voter fraud cases, then compare that number to every single effort taken by the governors of Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania. Then, ask yourself if you could cast aside all the stuff from long past, all the drivel spewn out by Fox News and its sources of talking points which it mistakes for actual news to report, and then start studying the behaviors of each governor in the three key states mentioned above. To be fair to Kasich, he’s not…to my knowledge…been as directly implicated in the suppression drives as the governors of FL and PA have been. They’ve made no bones about their desires to keep the numbers of Blacks, Hispanics, the disabled, the elderly (some of whom are even decorated veterans or housewives honored for their unbroken voting records for the past 50 years. And let’s not forget students. It’s as if the GOP gov’s decided to play the role of Louis Reynauld in Casablanca, and you know he was a cynic’s cynic ... so this falls right into their politcal m.o. Even PA’s House Speaker said in a self-congratulatory way, “Done” about his party’s efforts to not only round up the names of all those “usual suspects” ... these conservative (er, make it reactionary) WHITE boyos in Harrisburg are openly bragging that their sole purpose was to cleanse or suppress the numbers of people they thought would most likely be voting Democrat.Like Joseph Stalin, who said he didn’t mind elections, so long as he knew in advance who was going to do the counting, these Americanized righty Stalinists in the Keystone State are taking steps in advance of the election to make sure the counting procedure will go as planned, according to their plans. Sounds and looks pretty un-American to me; how about yourself? Okay, if that doesn’t jar your inner and hopefully more genuinely patrtiotic sensibilities, how ‘bout this little test? Would you like to be the local precinct voting station official who had to tell the father of a Black American soldier who lost his life in Afganistan or Iraq that his son or daughter died in vain while in the process of following these newly contrived diabolical rules? Personally, I’d stop what I was doing and tell the whole damn state to shove it before I’d participate another second in this disgusting charade every real red-blooded Patriotic voter should be ashamed of if it goes through as planned.
You know damned well this has nothing to do with fraud; it’s racial profiling, suppression and even adding a touch of Hitler’s Nuremberg Laws to boot, all so it can be “Done” on Mitt Romney’s behalf. I’d expect this crap from a two-bit redneck governor of Florida who looks more like a real Gov Moonbeam than Jerry Brown ever did in his youth. And this clown is going all out to prove he can pull the biggest redneck turnout for Romney as well. In Ohio, GOP party bosses are all falling over each other to justify their selective application of voting hours that favor ... what a coincidence ... longer voting hours in predomiinately GOP precincts than in urban Democratic precincts which happen to also predominately ... at the risk of appearing politically incorrect to disclose the real politically incorrect and amorally so politically incorrect party hacks, bosses and other assorted civics intelligence challenged gauleiters.
You’re probably thinking Barrett’s going over the top: Maybe to you and your fellow travellers who can defend this complete fraudulent tactic, but I’m not going nearly as far as I and any other self-respecting white man or woman, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Shintoist, Atheist or Agnostic should be going ... especially if they can bring to memory the visages of those marchers who had their heads cracked open in Selma, Alabama. Go ahead New Observer and share your thoughts to Congressman John Lewis of Georgia.
Go ahead and defend this kind of blatant racist conduct in this day and age so long after the day LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act, knowing full well he signed the Deep South over to the increasingly rednecky GOP (they were mining it for future (WHITE) voters during the mid-60s); and go ahead to continue defending every other legal and not-so legal means used by the bullies of this world to keep minorities “down and their place” and see how far you get, especially in parts of Boston like Roxbury who bravely put their kids on buses that went to Charleston and South Boston, aka “Southie” and now to fear that all their sacrifices will soon be in vain because just enough of this rising bunch of low-information (I love that PC way of putting it, LOL)whites watching and sucking in every word spoken on Fox or worse, the blubbering neo-fascistic Rushbo could be all it takes to turn the election in favor of Mitt Romney. I lived in Boston and worked for the Federal District Court in Boston during those busing crisis years and I also remember well the guy who worked for a far more decent man, the late Gov. Ed King (D-MA) and when asked how his candidate won the Democratic primary against incumbent Mike Dukakis…the wiseguy who dishonored King ... said in so many words, “We pulled all the angry hot heads together and we won.”
Let’s say Romney does win, but it’s another Bush-Gore nail-biter numerically speaking ... but worse, the decision hung on the decisions by three Republican governors who did what they could to suppress the votes of people they “knew in advance would likely vote Democratic” based on racial, gender and other equally odious reasons ... hell’s bells, what happened 12 years ago will look like a Sunday Fellowship picnic; and for many damn good reasons. If you really care for Romney’s ability to pull the nation together after what’s already the hastiest summer portion of any campaign in my 60 years ... now’s the time to take stock and get on the damn phone and/or email and start giving the PA officials the hell they need to feel now.
I pray this is NOT what you want to saddle any president with. It’s bad enough that the so-called (but once actually loyal opposition party) has behaved as deliberately petulant as they have at the behest of Sen. McConnell. But it’s one thing to thrash things out in an orderly way on Capitol Hill using parliamentary rules, etc. It’s another thing to take this petulance and deliberate dipping of sand in the then-new administration’s crankcase to an even lower level. Think of your country if your preferred politicans won’t.
Oh, Patrick Hutchins…love your posts. Keep ‘em coming Brother. Keep ‘em coming.

@ Steven Barrett: You can’t possibly believe that the Democratic party is not interested in voter fraud. That’s the Chicago way where dead people vote repeatedly.  The Republican party does not to suppress legitimate votes. A picture ID would eliminate some voter fraud and that would be good. A picture ID is needed to:  cash a check, apply for most jobs, get married, get on Amtrack, apply for social security, apply for Medicare,rent an apartment, apply for a passport, get on an airplane, buy alcohol at a restaurant or a store etc. There are many more instances that a person needs a picture ID. It’s racist in itself that you think minorities cannot possibly obtain or do not own a picture ID.

Let’s remember that it was the Democrats who opposed the Civil Rights bills in Congress.  Al Gore’s dad was especially against rights for blacks. It was the Rebublicans that put forth these bills and the Democrats in the South that opposed them.

I don’t know any Democrat who thinks that Romney and Ryan aren’t brilliant in their fields. Do you really think that a man who thought that he might run for the Presidency would not pay his income taxes? If you are one who is clamoring for Romney to release his tax returns, do you also fairly ask Obama to release his along with all the records that he has spent millions on to keep private?  Did the “brilliant” Obama get poor grades? Why not release them like Bush, Kerrey, and Gore did? What else is he hiding?

I, like many other Catholics, were raised in a Democratic household but realized that I could no longer vote for their abortion policies. I am proud to say that I also have 4 kids (between 18 and 23 yrs.)who also will vote for the RomneyRyan ticket because they are most importantly pro-life. My kids also see that the best way to help everyone have a better life is to get the unemployment rate down.  Obama hasn’t (couln’t or wouldn’t?). They also see the massive spending of this administration (5 TRILLION! It’s hard to fathom) as immoral. We are paying billions per year in interest alone. Wouldn’t this be better spent on programs to help the poor?

You seem to have such a disdain for the wealthy.  Who do you think can afford to be big donors to the thousands of charities that help the poor, elderly, and the disabled? I live near a young guy who has an annual salary of almost a million dollars a year. I don’t know why someone like him is hated by the Left. He and his family like many like them, keep restaurants, clothing stores, lawn care companies, people who work on their homes, car dealers etc. etc. etc. employed.  Is it envy?  We all have to account to God for all we are given.  I see many wealthy people who are very generous.

I pray daily that Romney wins and we can turn around this economy for everyone.

Okay. If it makes you and New Observer feel better, I’ll just surrender to the preponderance of manure you’ve allowed Fox, Rush, and all the rightist “think tank” talking points factories within and around Washington’s Beltway, to pollute otherwise good brain matter the Almighty gave you at birth and leave you both to your fondest desires on Nov. 6th.
But I can’t help but being amused at how you brought up Al Gore, Sr. to prove your points against my arguments against the sleaze party today’s GOP has become in the age of the younger Romney. Vice President Gore’s record in public service was a vast improvement on his father’s record. Unfortunately for George Romney, who must be spinning in his grave at the doofish son now claiming the nomination he sought against Richard Nixon, the same cannot be said for Willard “Mitt” Romney; who’ll make Nixon (in his darkest moments)look like a choirboy.
Yeah, why bother trying to point out the obvious. There’s no purpose in trying to make sense with invincibly ignorant people who want to stay that way and bring everybody down to their sadsack ways of thinking, too.

@ Steven Barrett: I couldn’t find the word “doofish” in my dictionary but if you mean to imply that Mitt Romney is unintelligent I don’t think many people would agree with you.  He got his MBA and his law degree from Harvard simultaneously.  You don’t agree with his politics. He is a very bright man and it drives liberals CRAZY.  Let’s be honest, the Democratic party wrote the book on sleaze.  Obama’s administration will go down as one of the sleaziest.

@Steven Barrett:  Sorry to disappoint you, but I am among the 10% of Americans who do not get cable TV.  Thus, I am unable to watch FOX News.  I have never seen it once.  As for Rush, I am at work during the day when he is on the air.  Even then, there is little Rush has to say that I am interested in.  How is it that you have so much time on your hands to listen to programs you don’t like?

The bishops are NOT against Paul Ryan as a candidate.  Bishops have spoken strongly many more times against the many anti-Catholic policies of the current President. Ryan is the clear Catholic choice. Ryan’s pro-life, pro-traditional marriage, and anti-embryonic stem-cell research positions are the most important.

I’m tired of politics, but am also weary of seeing rural Southerners disrespected & name called in some of the above comments.Please stop demeaning folk this way.It’s no more appropriate than using disrespectful terms for other groups of people.We’re all Americans.You don’t need to use stereotypes to make a point.Maybe everyone should turn off the TV for a few days & form some independent thoughts.Thanks.

MWS: It’s not the amount of degrees or where the candidate earned them that matters. In this instance, it’s Romney’s record as governor, his career of flip-flopping in order to rise yet one more rung up on the ladder to the Oval Office, principles be damned, I find upsetting. BTW, that’s one of the biggest complaints arising from within his own party. What does this man stand for other than viewing core philosophical principles and people as interchangeable units to get what he wants, no matter how dire the circumstances will be for those unfortunates whose lives will be turned upside down?  Yes, he’s really smart, but in the same way a wolf is smarter than most creatures, including humans, who happen to be in the same forest. 
Although I’ve been very blessed to have worked 15 years for two excellent academic institutions, one public, the other private, and gotten to know some of the brightest people who’ve walked the planet, their brightness didn’t shine because of what college they graduated from or where they earned their post graduate degrees and/or doctorates from. It was how they carried themselves, how they treated people who were not their peers in the realm of who had what degree from where that mattered.
And I’ve also known the Mitt Romney’s of the world, professional users. If you’ve ever read “The Last Hurrah,” you’ll find the kinds of cold-blooded ilk Romney would fit right at home with: Norman Cass, Sr. and Amos Force. Or as some people have been known to say up here, “Colder than a Yankee banker’s office in the dead of January.” All the degrees from all the best schools in the world go out the window when you run into the Romneys of the world. And to think this five-time draft dodger who thought nothing of protesting draft dodgers, and hid out in France using his continued strings of deferments, wants the parents, spouses, children and siblings of our Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, and Sailors to trust him and the same neo-cons who advised George W. Bush during his administration, and are now advising him (Mitt Romney) . . . like hell. Take a look at this linked story about Romney and see for yourself what kind of cold person he is; notwithstanding all his degrees. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/02/mitt-romney-201202
The man’s hollowness and cold detachment from the very nation he wants to be entrusted with leading is what drives not only liberals, but moderates and even many conservatives “crazy.”
New Observer, glad to see you’re not inflicted with the b.s. machine of Fox and El Rushbo, as you’ve indicated. I do have cable and at nights, I’ll occasionally flip back and forth among the “talking heads” shows, but mostly to find travel, woodworking DIY and real history shows, not “reality television” shows fobbed off as “history.” Yes, in a technical sense, they might contain some history for a researcher in decades to come; but they’re of no interest to me.  I visit both “righty and lefty” websites, etc. I do this because when I’m not in my shop, or doing things around the house, it’s my way of keeping on top of events. I’m semi-retired, but far from the stage where like a growing number of retiring empty-nester baby-boomers, who feel they own nothing more to the very society that helped them in far more ways than they’ve bothered to count as they worked to reach their present state(s) in life. There are fewer things I detest more than the whine of my generation when it comes to paying taxes for all we’ve been blessed to receive, but have been too damn lazy to count, or been lulled into forgetting by intellectually-sharp, but ever so cleverly sleazy politicians who’ll stop at nothing when it comes to playing the old divide n’ conquer game and use of political wedgies to get their way.
As for my use of admittedly self-invented words terminology or words, hey, it’s just my way of having some fun. Anybody have a problem with that? (At least I don’t write like so many young folks who’ve been lulled into accepting today’s cyberized form of !@#$% English all because it’s quick, simple and “easy” to read.
Kathleen, my apologies for offending you with words you feel I’ve used to disparage the South.  Why would I do that since I graduated from St. Thomas University in Miami, have relatives and close friends living in Dixie and worked in Central Florida? It’s the politics of the area I find most offensive; with its anti-public education, hypocritical megachurch piety, anti-labor, anti-environmental and still to this date, anti-Civil Rights, (voter suppression come to mind???) Plantation Mentality. But, if it makes you feel any better, we’ve got our share of “rednecky” pols, most of them happening to be New Hampshire-ites, especially the GOP kind. They’re called “Swamp Yankees,” or if in the larger cities in the Northeast, the “Archie Bunkers.”

@Steven Barrett:  Thanks for ratcheting down the demonization of Republicans.  So you know, Romney is not my choice.  I don’t particulary care for him nor his approach.  With Romney, everything is sterile economics.  I would have preferred Santorum.  There is a spiritual dimension lacking with Romney that both Catholics and Christians will never connect with.  The economy of a nation and the prosperity and blessings which flow are tied to biblical principles which God has ordained in the OT.  Mormonism is not Christian and does not speak to all which was promised for those who walk in obedience to Yahweh.  Conversely, we are now reaping the fruit of disobedience in so many aveunes in which we have violated God’s laws concerning finance and social behavior.  The Lord always blesses obedience and disciplines the opposite.  You can mark that down just as with the Genesis principle of seed time & harvest.  It is a biblical principle that consequences always come from disobedience.  The waving of “Red, White and Blue” flags and bunting ring rather shallow to me whether it’s the DNC or the RNC.  I was also unhappy with McCain as a choice last time.  He and Romney are decent men although neither (IMO) speak to the soul of which this great nation was founded.  I see no humility before the Lord either in faithfulness nor gratitude as our founders did and in the words of Lincoln.  It has become quite unpopular for any politician to speak of faith in Lord for fear of ridicule.  That is one endearing quality I did admire about Bush.  I am waiting for Romney to address the convention to see if he can change my current view of him from that of economics driving everything.  While people may disagree with Ryan’s policies, I prefer his sincerity to not glorify “self” as does Obama and his band of insiders.  My view is that a nation which forgets God does so at it’s own peril.  This is now unfolding before us but we still have time to turn back.  That even our bishops and priests fail to address these issues tells me something has gone astray with them as well.

Steven Barrett ,
We disagree politically I think, but thank you for your comments & apology.

Kathleen, political differences aside, I thank you for your kind reply. What a helluva boring world it’d be if we all agreed. That we can surely agree on. LOL. Likewise New Observer. Now, if I wanted to demonize the GOP, I’d go into full Carville Mode. (Added with a touch of Bill O’Reilly seeing that he and I share the same ethnic background, but beleive it or not, there’s no way I could go as ballistic as O’Reilly ... not if I didn’t want to return to a thoroughly red-faced family! Or the locks on the door changed! You’re description of both Romney and Santorum was very accurate. The problem with Santorum, as it tends to be with a lot of social conservatives is that no matter how they explain their views ... and I can’t put a finger on it ... but they just come across as the proverbial dancer with two left feet. Joe Scarborough hammered on this point this morning when he repeated Bill Buckley’s maxim about making sure the conservatives nominated by the GOP would be electable. Otherwise a lot of money, time and effort will be spent in setting up a lot of people for their cause’s unique bloodless replay of Culloden. Santorum, had Romney’s weaknesses down pat, but Romney was able to play him like a violin towards the end just on Santorum’s fatigue-induced implosion on the third rail emotional social issues. It works all the time especially when the candidate goes a little “Cromwellian” (i.e. taking on the holier than thou approach) and all it takes is for one cuss word, one little story from the past ... and the more social conservative candidate’s finished.
Santorum, I believe, was spot on   with his assertion that Romney was the worst candidate the GOP could’ve picked for all the old skeletons related to Bain, and now his much longer than previously known, link with Ryan and some of Ryan’s business shennanigans, etc. If people thought Hillary was a tough cookie in Little Rock, wait’ll they get more info on Mrs. Ryan and the wheelin’ n dealing she pulled, especially regarding UPS in that legislation that practically left the USPS like those COPD ad actors huffin’ underneath their respective elephants. And of course, there’s the question of how much yank she and/or her law firm pulled on behalf of Vermont Yankee, the nation’s oldest nuke hard by the Connecticut River. That place has a lot of wary neighbors and should only be left as a museum piece. It’s also the same kind of nuke that blew sky high last year in Japan.
If I was President, I’d treat K-Street much the same way General Sherman both regarded and treated the press on his march through Georgia! And y’all have a good night on that thought.

If anybody got the impression I was offering up an “explanation” for Todd Akin’s horrible remarks about rape and abortion, my sincerest apologies. But I can’t entirely blame them because in reviewing the post, I realize that in my attempts to describe the age-old problems social conservatives have when it comes to defending their views—and let’s face it—some of these views had best be kept private, I should’ve been harsher on Akin than I appeared to be.
What that man said, and to his credit, he realized he was incredibly wrong in his choice of words, was a product of many years of a willing acceptance of old shibboleths held by many people, both male and female, about rape. There’s never been a scrap of truth to the notion that during a rape, the trauma is such that the victim’s body goes into such a state of shock that it produces a certain kind of hormonal reaction so as to prevent conception. This myth, and I’ll confess to buying into it years ago, is pure junk science that’s been cleverly packaged as truth and peddled by some heavy hitters within the prolife movement, notably Dr. Wilkie, formerly the lay Godfather/guru of the national prolife movement. In fact, for years he was the head of the National Right to Life Movement. I sincerely hope, he, too, was innocently conned into buying this dangerous myth.
Unfortunately, and I say this out of sadness rather than any desire to stir things up (because this thread deals with Ryan and his economic policies)...the ultimate payees of this junk science aren’t the political opposites of the prolife movement. Far from it. Because when the voters catch on that they’ve “been had” in any way shape or form, in the end, this will result in an understandable drop in morale on the prolife side and who’ll pay the ultimately much higher prices in terms of violence to their bodies, their dignity and self-respect, not to mention even the lives of the women and their unborn children? Need I elaborate?
Perhaps so, should there be anybody willing to take Akins’ side in this matter. First the women, then the unborn, (should the rape victims become pregnant by their rapists.)
Since Ryan’s the principle figure in this post, it’s also fitting that his role in not only shaping the GOP’s budget be scrutinized and fairly critized for its draconian cuts in services so desperately needed by poorer and single mothers of young children; it’s interesting to note how quickly he and his new (unofficially political boss, i.e., Romney…his actual “bosses” are his Wisconsin District constituents) came together to say they would not prevent rape victims from obtaining abortions.
Notice they purposely left out any mention concerning who’d pay for them, or, and this is crucial to remember when considering where the Missourian fits into this story as it unfolds, any mention of HR 3, or for that matter, a previous statement made by Romney indicating a full enthusiastic response to a proposed bill outlawing abortion for any reason. (Should we be surprised given Romney’s habitual flip-flopping? It’s one thing for people to change their minds, but how they change them and how often they do so with such rapidity so as to suggest they’re more concerned about keeping their poll ratings high, thus their “viability factor” high enough to be considered “serious enough” to merit large campaign donations…well, that’s a problem the Romneys of the world will have to sort out for themselves.)
Ryan’s situation is more complicated. To be fair, when he agreed to work with Akin on HR 3, it was probably seen as a practical piece of legislation leading to the end of government-supported abortion. It certainly didn’t meet the long-established guidelines long known to every Catholic. Ryan, being the devout Catholic he’s reputed to be (and it’s not anybody’s but his pastor’s/shepherd’s initial calls and God’s ultimate judgment if he fits this description ... has to tread a fine line. If he wasn’t “on the same page” with the top of his ticket on this, especially given the explosively sensitive nature of the issue, and Romney’s deservedly low poll ratings with likely women voters, he’s finished as a VP candidate. And, by going along with Romney in his unusually firm (for Romney anyway) denunciation of Akin and public cutting off of support from the top of the party’s ticket), Ryan’s also contradicting his previous work with Akin and his Church.
The ticket was wise not to tell Akin to drop out. That’s the Missouri state GOP’s role; a point even the Democratic incumbent Claire McCaskill sensibly raised yesterday morning on MSNBC. That hasn’t stopped the usual gang of pols calling for the usual penalty, even though the carrying out of the penalty for embarrssing one’s party on extremely sensitive personal issues, invariably results in the firing squad, which 9 out of 10 times has a circular shape when it’s carried out.
Let’s face it, though, Akin’s a strange duck, and he’s got a lot of other very weird ideas I’d be delighted to see him trounced on for, not the least his “aw shucks I’m sorry” attitude for offending women in perhaps one of the most insensitive ways possible. But, I also respect the commonly established rules of civil politics as to how they’re (hopefully) best played out during a very emotional campaign season. We’ll all know by tonight if Akin’s “not a quitter” as he said yesterday, or whether he’ll stick it out. That call belongs, in the end, to Missourians only. Party heads have the right to their say and exercise in judgment insofar as how much $upport they’ll give, but it all rests on Akins’ head n’ heart to make.
What Ryan has to do now is decide what’s really important for him as a Catholic, husband, father, citizen, elected (and party) official, and in that order. To settle the first matter, he’ll have to do some serious “‘splainin’” to do with his pastor and bishop. That won’t be pleasant because he’s already compromised himself regarding the Church’s teachings on the economy and social justice. That’s act one. The next act, his willingness to give Romney, the most flip-floppingnest ticket-topper for both parties, (in my lifetime, at least) such a wide swath of say in such a very delicate subject of moral teaching, won’t help him in the least, especially Romney’s reputation for economc buccaneering.
Personally, I’d rather this be left out of the political arena, and where it belongs, in the heart and soul of every American, regardless of where or how they pray, or if they pray at all. Abortion and how we deal with it requires a much greater understanding and appreciation of not only God’s word, but also His eternal mercy.
Why is it that we hear so much about God’s eternal judgments comi ng from the so-called political prolife moment, couched in terms more suitable to a dreamy-eyed Hollywood scriptwriter seeking to come up with the next blockbuster Biblical film only with special effects to dwarf all previously used means to razzle, dazzle and frazzle any would-be doubter of Hollywood, if not the Almighty’s power? Is this necessary? Doesn’t it strike any of us that the movement seems to rely more upon manipulated fears rather than appeals to God’s mercy, guidance and unconditional love for everybody involved in this issue? If we truly believe God’s love is unconditional, shouldn’t we just leave what’s already published in Scripture to stand and let God decide for Himself whether or not He deems it necessary to inflict the ultimate punishment on anybody’s soul?
Maybe if we tried this more often than allowing a few (already well-placed in advance, as usual) politicos with a yen and knack of exploiting very touching and extremely sensitive personal issues, perhaps many of the millions of aborted children might have lived if only the efforts put into all the political machinations to stop abortions, sans any correspondingly concurrent efforts to provide necessary support systems for these mothers and their families—had been put into praying for His intervention first, foremost and lastmost throughout the nearly forty fruitless years spent trying to overturn the Court’s ruling. Ever notice how the same folks show up, write the same kinds of heart-wrenching, dollar sucking, forumlaic fundraising letters? They make a good living at it. It costs a lot of money to live in or around Washington, not to mention the costs of churning out tons of research papers (often containing expedient junk science to meet the urgencies of the moments at hand, renting all the office space, hiring all the “best available” advocates, and hold all those expensive gatherings. That’s nice for the folks living there. Isn’t it about time the same people who love to watch public officials squirm in their seats while facing a House/Senate hearing start putting the same kind of pressure on the supposedly prolife political movement that’s become a mirror of the permanent bureaucracy fiscal/social conservatives love pointing to for living off the “backs of the taxpayers”? Who’s been living off the backs of the parishioners and why have we tolerated this for so long while seeing so little in return for all the money sent to this relatively small, but very vocal and no doubt, well-oiled “advocacy” groups said to be acting on behalf of the unborn are doing well when they’re just supposed to be doing good? Perhaps if questions like this could be answered first, we wouldn’t be facing more wrenching dilemmas like the one facing Missouri…and the rest of the nation should he or others like him win. Trust me, any man who’d come out in favor of massive cuts in programs designed to help the poor, is no friend of the unborn, regardless of how they were conceived; and darn sure, by his lack of discernment and circumspection with regard to rape, no friend of women.
The solutions to the moral dilemma caused by abortion lies not in politics, but in our hearts. This isn’t like slavery, however cleverly it’s been packaged to resemble. This is far too individual a matter for that.
Come to think about it; how expensive is a set of Rosary Beads, maybe knee pads and little extra time set aside a day compared to all the millions sent to the black hole of the prolife movement?

Steven Barrett ,
As a woman I’m more offended by the “legitimate” rape remark than Mr. Akins’ poor grasp of biology.Few men have much understanding re reproduction & women aren’t far behind.

@ Steven Barrett: Why does Ryan have some “splaining to do”? Obama has recklessly spent us into oblivion and been the most pro-abortion president ever. As a Catholic, how could you have voted for a man who sponsored a bill in Illinois that would have prosecuted me as a pediatric nurse for giving ANY comfort to a baby not killed by the abortionist? Shouldn’t you have questioned how as a Catholic you thought it was fine to vote for a man who supports partial birth abortion? And for your information, it is never done in an emergency to save the mother. It takes at least 2 days.

Ryan is trying to cut from a budget that never should have gotten so out of control. Obama already cut 77 billion from Medicare. Why aren’t you objecting to that? Ryan wants to cut waste and programs in duplicate and triplicate will need cutting. The left always screams about programs that are considered for cutting like Planned Parenthood funding. You know they have been found to be scamming the federal govt. out of billions again in Medicaid fraud. How about PP and public television.?

I happen to think those in the prolife movement do amazing things with the money I send them. They usually work on small budgets so I don’t know what you are talking about.  If Catholics like you, voted for prolife candidtes, maybe there would be less need for some of the organizations who advocate against abortion and euthanasia. Prolife people already get on their knees with their rosaries and pray a lot. You should already know this.

I’d like to hear from you how you think this massive spending can go on with no way of paying back our debt. We couldn’t repay it if everyone gave their whole paycheck to the government. How are we going to pay for this massive debt if huge cuts are not made?

President Obama cut $716 BILLION from Medicare.  That’s seven hundred and sixteen billion, to pay for his health program.  I agree w/ MWS.

Thank you Terah. I meant to type 700 billion. Thank you for being more accurate (much more!)

You are welcome, MWS. Setting the record straight, re: Sunday, Aug. 12th, I wrote: “Regarding the Vatican: it has been in the news that the United States and Germany are the two biggest contributors to the Vatican.”

I couldn’t figure out *where* Germany got its money and was taken to task for the comment.  While this no longer being discussed, for anyone still interested, I found two articles shedding light on the subject.

First, allow me to point out that in the USA, we have an Annual Diocesan Appeal (ADA) that MUST be paid *by* each parish *to* the diocese, or the money comes out of the Parish General Fund, so it is: a Church TAX.

John Allen (NC Reporter) in All Things Catholic gave a detailed report:
http://ncronline.org/print/blogs/all-things-catholic/churchs-deep-pockets-butler-did-it-and-myths-about-atheism  

Most enlightening about what Allen wrote is, “In Germany, the Catholic church netted $8.8 billion in 2010 from the national ‘church tax,’ allowing it to remain the country’s largest private employer after Volkswagen.”

Voila!  Why the USA & Germany are the biggest contributors to the Vatican.

Secondly, The Economist has an article about the US Catholic Church & its finances here:
http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

I offer this information, because I think it is healthy to question bishops, and clergy.  We must simply be respectful, and be prepared with FACTS, and good data, when we dialog with them.

As with the German bishops and their publishing company, why wait until lay people get so frustrated from being ignored, they go to the secular press?  It does not have to be like that.  We are all adults now, not children.  We should be able to communicate with all clergy, as adults.

Kathleen: One of those afternoons! Explorer pulled an etch-a-sketch on my first attempt to reply to your last post. Your perspective is spot on. My remarks were written in a way to explain just how ridiculous Akins’ stand is and has been throughout. This guy’s been a strange duck all along, and one can only imagine what else is flapping in his head or has been all these years. And what’s with his constituents that they couldn’t have sniffed him out long before? Goes to show how lax some districts are when it comes to setting even commonly acceptable minimal standards for political and basic IQ levels before any candidate can get his or her name on any ballot. Delaware sure got bewitched! (Okay,bad pun. LOL)
We don’t need walking geniuses that are too smart for their own and their constituents’ own good. While Missouri’s Democratic Party has done a much better job when it comes to mastering this basic electoral task, lately the Republicans, who’ve allowed themselves to be taken over by the Tea Party and a host of other rightist folks, well ... they’ve got a lot, and I mean a lot of rebuilding to do. And it wouldn’t hurt itself in the least by telling all the anti-critical choice folks to take a long hike. When people eschew critical thinking skills and instruct their public school systems, Sunday Schools, and every other aspect of a nation’s vital intellectual infrastructure, there’s danger ahead.  Go ask anybody who’s studied and/or even witnessed in person the fall of the Weimar Republic and witnessed what the Nazis did to critical thinking skills at every level of Germany’s once second-to-none educational system back in 1933-34 when they started taking over every facet of life in the Republic. Kathleen, I’m positive you recognize the danger here, so my remarks regarding the results of what happens when critical skills are deliberately neglected, especially for an unrevealed ideological agenda, are shared for other readers who see no problem when it comes to the risks of eschewing of teaching critical thinking skills.
What on earth are people afraid of? What kind of “disrespect” do these small-minded parents and school officials fear so much that they can’t seem to come up with creative counter arguments to answer their children’s and their pupils’ questions in a way that doesn’t actually induce real disrespect because they showed the kids none in the first place? My parents were both educated by the Sisters of St. Joseph who knew how to instill discipline. So when I’d hear people say, well, you grew up this way because your father was a military guy. Nope, because by the time he joined the Army Air Corps in ‘42, the military had very little training to do with him. He was ripe n’ ready for it! Still, despite our early years living on bases or nearby before our dad retired, not once were we forbidden to openly question the government’s policies. Using profanity, name calling at the dinner table and esp especially the “n-word” got us if a world of trouble and rightfully so. But not once were we told we had to be liberal or conservative. There was one firm line drawn on theological matters. Nobody dared to say he was going to leave the Church, lest he get our mom’s stare and icy question, “Who founded the Church.” Anybody think she lost that one?
So long as there are firm ground rules established and parents or teachers take the time to explain the “why” behind them, nobody should have the slightest reason to fear a sudden rise of disrespect. It’s when the reins are kept too tight and in an unreasoning, uncaring way, that’s when trouble starts.
MWS,would you kindly bone up on the Medicare issue a little more. Indeed, the Obama Administration cut $716B from Medicare over the next 9 years, but if you care to read this Washington Post article I’m sharing, you’ll see how this works to everybody’s advantage. It’s taking the money out of what I like to call, “Rich Folks Medicare” so everybody will be able to receive equally excellent health coverage when the Affordable Health Care Act becomes more fully operational over the following nine years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/14/romneys-right-obamacare-cuts-medicare-by-716-billion-heres-how/ Our respective levels of government have been performing tasks like this for decades. Don’t tell me you’ve fallen for the handy mythology used by the GOP and fiscal conservatives that government budget setting should be done like Ma and Pa do at their kitchen tables every year. Really? And do Ma and Pa have to provide for all the obligations set forth in the Constition’s Preamble? (Same example can be used for our respective state’s and municipal budgets as to how they compare with Ma and Pa’s.)
BTW, I couldn’t help noticing how you hitched “public television” with Planned Parenthood. That’s an interesting one. I wonder how many parents ever thought about any linkage between Big Bird, This Old House, Masterpiece Theater, the Metropolitan Opera, Nova (both of which are underwritten by David Koch ... is he on your list of suspicious liberal-leaning people to watch out for?) and so forth. David Koch also happens to be a Catholic convert. However much I disagree with the man’s political leanings,it’ll be a cold day in hell before I refuse to give him credit for the good he does for the public’s behalf. Yes, sponsoring cultural events, even high brow culture won’t hurt anybody, even if he, with all his billions gets a tax break for doing so. Would you prefer the Kochs and other wealthy benefactors dump more money into negative campaign ads to run on your television? It’s going to happen anyway, but, so will the better quality shows, etc., you’ve married at the hip to Planned Parenthood. And why do you suppose men like him feel obligated to write the heavy checks to keep quality public programming available for everybody? Even he realizes that the rest of the cesspool, to borrow from Newton Minow’s famous findings and phrase, would rather run re-runs of shows like ABC’s “Wipeout,” one “talent show” after another featuring some of the worst “talent” to come across any stage, and a pittance’s worth of quality historical or civic-oriented shows designed to make people THINK. Maybe PBS’ funding is what threatens you more than any funding for PP.
Lord God, is it really too much to expect Americans to use their thinking caps more often? Maybe so when the gurus of narrow-mindedness have deemed critical thinking a threat so the social order from Ma and Pa’s kitchen to Capitol Hill.

Lest anybody think I (REALLY) lost all my thinking skills, never mind the critical variety, in my last sentence above, I inadvertently typed “...have deemed critical thinking a threat so the social order…” should’ve read “to the social order.”

Akin’s staying in. Is Mike Huckabee his new campaign director along with pushing the GOP line on Faux “news” too?  Methinks Akin, if he’s looking for campaign advice from a man of the cloth, he could do FAR worse than Fr. John, now retired Senator, Danforth, R-MO. Father/Senator Danforth told him to get out of the race. Excellent advice, even though he missed the cut off point a couple of hours ago. Now he’s placed himself at Clair McCaskill’s mercy. To borrow from one of my former “governors,” heh heh heh heh.

@Steven Barrett: You make my case perfectly.  You go on (and on) about shows on TV and a wealthy patron funding PBS. He has the money and wants to do this. We as taxpayers should not be funding this. We should not be funding Planned Parenthood. Did you see that another young woman died at their hands getting “health care”. Most of the media ignore cases that cast a bad light on PP. The young woman was also African American. This is what Margaret Sanger wanted. She called the poor the undesirables.

My 2 biggest questions you failed to answer. 1)How are we going to pay for this massive debt if huge cuts are not made?
2)As a Catholic how can you justify voting for the most pro-abortion president in our history?

Sigh, I’ll admit it MWS, I went too long, but you gave me an itch I’ve been longing to scratch; a part of that being the desire of a growing number of mediocrities who’ve been satisfied with the pablum of mental mush they’ve received all their lives, or elected to receive instead of the better and more informing shows on the tube or in theaters where they live.
Sadly, these people and there are legions of them throughout the nation, seem to be the driving force behind Madison Avenue and Hollywood’s drive to keep pulling us downward season by season, day by day, etc. More sadly to the point, one of the worst examples of “American exceptionalism” besides some of our most tawdry displays of jingoistic hoorah childishness(whilst we encourage our kids to wave little American flags ALL MADE IN CHINA) is bolstered by the mediocre mindset you’d prefer than any dime spent by the governmnent to help our neediest. Sorry if some of that goes to Planned Parenthood, but I’ve got a laundry list of other things I’d prefer my money not to go to. How many damned planes, ships and tanks we don’t need to fight yesterday’s wars do we need to keep on paying for? Oh, I guess it’s as many as K-Street, the Pentagon and their pals like the neocons and the present Republican “leadership” team dragging the House further down in the eyes of the nation.
Hey, kids going hungry; young parents and adults not being able to attend college,old folks freezing and starving to death due to cut offs in fuel assistance and meals on wheels programs? What’s it to you MWS?
We don’t need to cut any programs. Not a one. All we need to do is get the very wealthy to contribute more than they have. Why can’t we raise the threshold cap for Social Security taxes from $110K to $250K; a move that wouldn’t take a bite out of millions of Americans who don’t make even $100k a year? It would extend SS’s solvency for at least another 75 years. Bear in mind, no other program in our nation’s history has ever been as popular or successful as SS. It hasn’t missed a payment in its entire 77 year history. It damn near did last year, and we know who to blame the most for that; the same people who initiated the showdown over the budget ceiling and dared to insult the public’s intelligence by calling it a “leveraging moment.”
How much money was wasted then, especially when it led to the devaluing of our credit standing? If we’re going to gamble, why not gamble it on something that’ll produce tangible results such as improved highways, rapid rail systems, improved airports, update our infrastructure all around. That’ll produce jobs which will ripple over and over, thus enabling the nation to return more to the treasury for other things that need taking care of.
What did we get from throwing more money in tax breaks to one of the wealthiest families since the dawn of time, the Waltons of Arkansas? And how did they make their money? Oh, that’s worth a book full of posts and replies. No thanks. How many people will gain from Alice Walton being able to buy more paintings for her museum in the boonies and more pricey horses for her stables? Guess who pays for them? You do, I do, and everybody in the nation will for decades to come because even tax breaks for the undeserving have to be made up. The GOP with help from Obama forgot this in December 2010, but they made sure to be ever so prudent as to allow a filibuster to stand blocking a chump change bill of $14B that would’ve provided a one time $250.00 check for every SS, SSDI, Disabled Veteran to make up for the loss of a COLA for the previous two years. Do you have any idea how many more bucks in taxes that would’ve returned, especially since the COLA would’ve been issued in December?
As it turns out, Obama’s not the “most pro-abortion president in history” ... the fact abortion rates have declined since he took office bears this out. Bear in mind that it could’ve been lower had it not been for the Tea Party (er Kool Aid) Congress that took over in 2011 and ever assidiously worked to dismantle the social safety net.
What’s in it for you to play the role of Victor Hugo’s Inspector Javert with such enthusiasm. Talk about miserables, you’re going to make a hell of a lot more than any Margaret Sanger ever imagined, and not all of them will be poor children. Get a life: I’m done with you.

Again Steven Barrett could not cohesively state how we are to pay for the massive debt without huge cuts to the budget and why he could justify voting for the most pro-abortion president in our history.
I think that he is not Catholic and I think he is a troll. I checked around to other blogs on NCR and saw that he writes EXTENSIVELY about ultra liberal Democratic themes (he thinks Bernie Sanders the avowed socialist is wonderful).  Just a guess as he can’t answer 2 simple questions.  Romney/Ryan really do drive you nuts! I can see it.

@mws:  You may be correct.  @Steven Barrett:  [“As it turns out, Obama’s not the “most pro-abortion president in history” ... the fact abortion rates have declined since he took office bears this out.”]  This statement is quite possibly the most idiotic ever posted in the history of the National Catholic Register.

No U.S. Catholic owes allegiance to the USCCB but only to the Pope, his diocesan Bishop, and to the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church) which is comprised of the Pope and those Bishops in union with the Pope.  The USCCB has no canonical authority, especially no such authority when it comes to teaching.  The USCCB has for decades demonstrated its liberal Democrat bias by issuing equivocal, ambiguous Faithful Citizenship documents which provide loopholes, ala Cardinal Bernardin’s seamless garment laundry list of “Catholic issues.”  Archbishop Lori expressed in a short paragraph what the USCCB, were it honest and non-partisan, would adopt and publish as the guide which trumps their trumped up Faithful Citizenship loophole-laden permission to vote for the abortionist-in-chief and his henchmen/henchwomen who favor, promote and legislate intrinsic evils.  They are morally disqualified from receiving any faithful Catholic’s vote.

The longer I remain Roman Catholic, I see my allegience belongs only to my Lord, Jesus, our living God, not to any live man, pope or otherwise. 

We need some kind of church leadership, for structure.  But the more I see of our church, and how it has strayed off track, leading others to go off tract, the more I believe the tenets of the New Testament *must* be ALL we believe.  It is the ONLY truths that contain eternal value.  Everything else is fluff and peripheral, at best.

Like today is the Feast Day of Mary, Queen of Heaven.  Pope Pius XII came up with that title for her, in the 1950’s.  Not to diminish Mary’s role in the church, but all the “new and improved” dogmas have only served to water down our Christian faith, taking the focus away from Jesus, from Calvary and the Resurrection & HIS Ascension & coming again.  Jesus is still a little baby, in Joseph and Mary’s arms, for many Catholic friends.
 

It’s why hardly anyone is on the same page in the Catholic church, not even knowing right from wrong.  If the pope and the USCCB just stuck with what we know to be True in the Bible, it will be easier for everyone to follow their lead. 

By the way, my non-Catholic Christian friends say they do *not* worship the Bible.  But they *do* worship its Author, the Holy Spirit = God.

To be loyal to Jesus requires being loyal to the divine institution he founded, the Catholic Church.  Not the USCCB, but to the Magisterium.  Appointing yourself Pope isn’t being true to Jesus.

The Church has an unbroken line of Popes from Peter to the present day.  Some of them were rotters, but even they were protected from teaching error in matters of faith and morals by Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit and his promise to be with them to the end of time.  It is in that sense we believe in Papal infallibility in matters of faith and morals.  When we hear or read in the media that the “Vatican” says this or that, do not translate that into “The Church teaches this or that.”

HERE ARE THE BIBLICAL REFERENCES:

Jesus made Peter the first Pope and gave him the keys to the kingdom (Matthew 16:13-19). As for authority and the promise of the Holy Spirit and guarantee of all truth, see:
Luke 10:16
John 16:12-13
John 21:17
Matthew 18:17
Matthew 28:18-20
John 14:26

Jesus makes it quite clear that the authority and the Holy Spirit’s guidance are in the Catholic Church and its proper authorities, not in each member’s interpretation of scripture.  I will continue to obey Jesus’ words and therefore the words of the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church).  I believe in the inerrancy of Holy Scripture but not in the inerrancy of multiple authorities’ interpretations when they are at odds with the Magisterium.  Going down the multiple authorities path leads to rampant error.

@Impossible:  [“To be loyal to Jesus requires being loyal to the divine institution he founded, the Catholic Church.’]  To be loyal to Jesus requires being loyal to His gospel “first”—above any institution.  He said “All things of Heaven and Earth will pass away—His words will not.”  The idea that men of the church are somehow immunized by the Holy Spirit against sin, deception and all manner of evil, well, you’ve not been watching the news the last 10 years.

With apologies to the Kingfish, “Everyman’s his own magisterium” in this string of amusing replies.
Trollfully yours y’all, S.

Observer, Jesus founded the Church via his words in the Gospels.  You might actually read the verses I cited instead of presuming to know the depths of my inquires into the news, both Church and secular. Nothing in my posts would lead a reasonably observant person to throw this at me:  ”  The idea that men of the church are somehow immunized by the Holy Spirit . . .”  I was in fact saying quite the opposite.  Stick to your opinions rather than spinning mine to make whatever your point was.

@IMPOSSIBLE:  “Ye shall know them by their fruit.”  Watch the news and stay informed.

new observer not very observant.  You’re in a loop and I will waste no more time with you.

The USCCB was molded by the infamous ‘bernardin’.  He insured it was stocked with his hand-picked cronies that backed his homosexual-agenda & ‘social justice’, ‘common good’, Communism.  He befriended the jew-atheist & communist, Saul Alinsky, who dedicated his one book, rules for radicals, to ‘Satan”.  Alinsky started a school, Industrial Areas Foundation, which ‘bernardin’ funded since 1969 with 15% of the annual CCHD collection that the USCCB tells the Catholics in the pews is for the POOR.  The CCHD also funded ACORN with over 7 million & in effect insured the election of the Pro-Abortionist in the oval office.  Rome needs to disband the LCWR & also the still corrupt USCCB.  We are only answerable to the Bishop in our Diocese & not the dictates of the ‘bernardin’ cronies still in control of many departments inside the USCCB.  Until they are replaced, the internal conflict & turmoil will continue as will the pedophilia !

Grey Bear: your post explains a lot.  There is a liberal man that’s almost a columnist for our diocesean newspaper, he gets so much space every single month in Letters to the Editor, month after month, year after year.  Our bishop teaches nothing, but this man never shuts up.

In the man’s last letter, he praised Cardinal Bernardin, asking where he was when the world needs him, lauded the outspoken nuns, and hoped for Vatican III.

What is the CCHD collection?  Is it different than the ADA (Annual Diocesan Appeal)?

You guys want to mess with nuns on a matter that requires some thinking? You might want to rethink that. This columnist sounds like my kind of writer. I used to be a conservative writer for my local diocesan paper, and I even wrote about social justice from The Church’s perspective back in the mid 80s. It was possible then. Today’s conservative wing of the Church over here seems more interested in aping their rightist pals in the leaning hard to starboard bunch.
Watch out…the Nuns, compared to their nit-picking rightist nay-sayers here and over in Rome, are on a “Mission from God.” Too bad they don’t use the same ruler like the one in The Blues Brothers.

@ Steven Barrett: Do you mind telling us what Diocesan newspaper you wrote for “in the mid 80’s” on social justice issues. I’d love to look up the articles. Just be honest, there is no way you were a writer for the paper,much less a conservative writer.  I don’t know what you are writing about half the time.  I believe that you are a troll and thus lying about being a Catholic.  You know so little about the Church. Issue after issue you know nothing about, such as what drives the pro-life movement and why people are upset with the nuns in the LCWR. I think that you are a crazed liberal who loves to attack all things Republican. You also attack the Catholic Church because they are the one institution that consistently calls out the Democrats on their stands on abortion and gay marriage. The Democrats are so out of touch. Romney/Ryan are focusing in the horrible economy. Obama is focusing on a War Against Women.  I wish the Democrats would stop their War Against Women on so many levels.

mws: I’m sure Mr. Barrett was a writer for a newspaper.  A lot of newspaper columnists appear to have a an over-inflated view of themselves, as Mr. Barrett has. Conservative? Not sure, but it is obvious that Mr. Barrett is enthralled by his own perceived wit and intelligence.

Out of safety concerns for others, particularly my family and my past employers, I refuse to list divulge the information you’re demanding. I’m far from a coward, and if I was a single man living by myself, I might be more forthcoming. I have bigger moral considerations than meeting ego-centrical concerns, notwithstanding your opinions. The “might” centers on how much grief I (rightfully) fear some people might enjoy heaping on that former employer, even if it is a Catholic paper. There sure as hell doesn’t seem to be a lot of respect left for the Hierarchy in this paper’s lay catcallers in the bleachers.
I’ve seen more disrespect shown for the Hierarchy in this paper than in anywhere else within the Church’s realm here in the U.S.
Small wonder the sheep stealers are enjoying higher poaching stats. They have lots of helpers in the so-called “conservative” and “loyalist” wings. I really do not wish to leave the Church again, but I think since returning to it in 04, it’s become a safe haven for nearly every reactionary self-styled loyalist Pharisee imaginable in this land of the free.
This growing shame of rank meanspiritedness lies on what’s become of the once proud Conservative Movement started by real conservative thinkers, not to mention, genuine Christian gentlemen of honor: Bill Buckley, Russell Kirk, Fr. Neuhaus and M. Stanton Evans, the director of the National Journalism Center in Washington DC, under whom I interned for in Spring ‘83.
And I’ll confess I’ve written some pretty though things and for that, when I went overboard, my apologies. Pitifully, today’s more strident “conservative” movement writers and columnist big shot wannabes are too busy sharpening their knives. Well, remember one thing kiddos, the blades cut both ways and they kill if you want to fall on them. Is it worth it? Really? Look at your loved ones, your friends, your families ... for once will you even look at your Church and country to see where all this is leading to? Think!
That’s as much as you deserve to learn about me and as much as I’ll bother letting you see. My formerly more conservative bona fides are genuine. I’m older, perhaps too mellowed over the years, nearly three decades of marriage and raising four adult children will do that. So will watching a movement turn into a meanspirited societal sneer.
It’s all yours, if you can (shamelessly) live with it.

Paul Ryan touts himself as a faithful Catholic. What kind of a Catholic would say, I care for the poor, but… This guy is hypocrasy personified. This Country always took care of its own and God greatly blessed it. Notice how since 1996 when war was declared on the poor in the USA, that is when this Country began to fall. St. John the Evangelist says, “We all know this, God rewards every good and punishes every sin.” God blessed this Nation when it was taking care of its own unfortunate citizens. Since the ugly head of greed popped out its head in 1996, this Country began its own downfall. We are only getting our recompense for our hatred for the poor now.

Yeah, I was scratching my head too when I heard that the Bishops criticized Ryan’s plan. The Obama plan: here, we’ll help, you we will give you a fish. The Ryan plan: here, we’ll help you, we will show you how to fish. They both accomplish the same thing, feeding, but with totally opposite consequences and results. Ryan’s plan does a great deal more for the human person than the Obama plan. And I can’t understand why people are so obtusely blind to not recognize that.

Mother Teresa of Calcutta topped that. It was asked of her in criticism, “have you ever heard, give a man a fish feed him for a day, teach a man to fish feed him for a lifetime”. She said, “Yes, God gives you the responsibility to teach him how to fish. God has given me the responsibility to feed him right now.” The obtusely blind are those who cannot see that Obama plans to give no one a fish. And Ryan has no plans to teach anyone how to fish. His plan is evil, He is like the rich man in scripture to all the lazarus of the world. Fend for yourselves, I have lots of money and I live comfortably. No free lunches for you, Lazarus!

@Southern:  You are correct.  The people who are blinded are those who have been dumbed down and conditioned to accept entitlements for life.  This is how Democrats in general get re-elected.  The offer giveaways to people by increasingly taxing other people.  The lifetime entitlement crowd remain indentured servants and slaves to the Democratic plantation.  That’s very destructive to the human psyche of a person becoming the best he/she can be in God’s eyes.

@Angelo:  [“God has given me the responsibility to feed him right now.”]  If you really believed this statement from Mother Teresa, there does come a point when a man needs to get off his rear end and make something of himself.  A minimum wage is that for someone starting off,—you are expected to progress and improve yourself through experience, schooling or more training.  Your idea that Ryan cares less about people is bogus Axelrod-Obama clap trap.  Angelo, how long is “right now.”  No self respecting man wants to be fed by other men all their life.  There is a difference between caring for those incapable of caring for themselves, the medically sick and destitute versus those who continually “take” from the largess from others.  Maybe you know Mother Teresa, but even she knows the gospel a whole lot better than you do.

Angelo, I am afraid you have been brain washed, as have many Americans have, unfortunately. Caring for the poor by keeping them dependant on the government is as irresponsible as parents keeping their grown children at home and never allowing them to learn a skill, grow up, and be productive members of society. Ryan is not saying his plan does not take care of the poor or needy. He has made it quite clear that his program keeps the safety nets there for those that need them and for whem they are needed. But ideally those people, through education and job opportunity, should get off of dependency and into self-fulfillment. That is what his plan proposes. For the life of me, I cannot understand why people see this idea as wrong.

@ Southern and @ New Observer: Great thoughts written well. .

I agree with mws.  Ideally made comments by Southern & New Observer.  I pray all our bishops are reading this blog.

Congratulations and many thanks to Pat Archbold, for starting this much-needed conversation.

@mws:  Thanks.  I think Angelo forgot that even Jesus knew the value of hard work for a day’s pay.  Working for a living is part of the Genesis curse.  He was a Construction worker *before* going into ministry.

@Angelo: Excellent question, my friend! “Paul Ryan touts himself as a faithful Catholic. What kind of a Catholic would say, I care for the poor, but . . . ” He’s Mittens’ kind of Catholic, and of course, being that kind of Catholic, too, it automatically makes him a corporation Catholic, i.e., management, and we both know about serving two masters. The Romney’s..Ryans..and the rest of that bunch wouldn’t mind if all of us served two, three or more masters a week, if not in a day so long as we had enough coffee keeping us pumped up and gas $$s in our wallets and subway tokens in our pockets.
Whadda country, whadda (Ryanesque) version of the Church. Let’s be thankful it’s not ours!

How can a man be the best he can be, when his situation deprives him of this right. I know for a fact that Mother Teresa knows the Gospel better than us but that does’nt make you and I totaly stupid. To be able to live on Minimum wage, is a rediculous fantasy. A man on minimum wage brings home 1,200 a month, the rent is 1000 a month. Do the math (Holding the Gospel in your hands). The Idea that one get an education and work hard, is an ideal. But it isn’t possible for many. My highschool daughters are University material, they have dreams, not of making lots of money but of being who they want. What will they say when I tell them I cannot afford to send them to a University? If there are free handouts out there, thank you I’ll take them. Jesus Our Lord truly knew the value of a hards day work, to think it was he who spoke about feeding the poor, giving drink to the thirsty…Heaven or hell your choice! According to the Mystics of the Church, The Holy Family lived in dire poverty. On the flight to Egypt with the infant Jesus they had few provisions and no money, thank God Ryan was not there. But others were there, who in Charity helped them.

But those others who helped the Holy Family were not the government organizations of Herod (who tried to kill Jesus), Caesar (who did kill Jesus), or Egypt (who probably still wished their ancestors hadn’t been forced to let the Jews loose in the first place).  That government which you trust to take care of everyone can (probably will) change into that government which wants to control everyone (see the Obamacare legal issues regarding contraception) or even kill them if they are even inconvenient (e.g. abortion “rights”).

Free handouts. Lets talk freehandouts. I as an American have seen enough to realize that this is a free handout Nation. Where do I begin? Well, there is welfare, welfare, and more welfare, for rich and poor alike. I guess everyone knows about those lazy bums who just sit on their rear end, and live like the rich. Do the rich receive welfare? Yes! They call it words like, taxbreaks, working for more than one is worth, free public schools, government funded private schools (tax breaks), free highways, freeways public roads, health insurance, paid holidays, paid vacation, sick pay, pensions, cheap food prices on the back of the poor, of course I can go on and on. But the bottom line is, this is a free handout Nation. Even Ryan is receiving welfare, in the form of tax deductible donations for his campaign, he does’nt pay a single penny out of his own pocket. And thats the way he likes and prefers it.

Dave Gilmer, Those who helped the Holy Family, helped them from their surplus and their need. Giving us the example how we should treat others. Those who helped the Holy Family did not do it grudgingly, and of course they paid taxes. Has there been anytime when people have not been taxed? Everyone is forced to feed the poor through taxes, the government has to do what we ourselves will not do, will not do even gudgingly. Poor sad Nation of ours. Mother Teresa was asked which was the poorest nation in the world. She answered, “The United States of America, because its people no longer know how to love.” If that was true 20 years ago, it is much truer now.

Nice try, Angelo, but the governments of Herod and Caesar were not known for feeding the hungry (except for bread and circuses in Rome, not the Holy Land).  Ptolemaic Egypt was not a shining light of government provision of social justice either.  What these governments had in common with our present US government was the stench of corruption.  Maybe most of our officials aren’t taking bribes, but there is the serious corruption of poor (or no) performance at all levels shielded by unions, Snivel Service regulations, and political correctness.

The solution is subsidiarity.  If I’m going to pay taxes to feed the hungry, I want to be able to reach out, raise issues, and cure problems at no higher than the state level.  Even the state level is a dubious proposition if you look at California.

Does it really make you feel good to pay $1.00 in taxes with much less than that coming back in real services that do measurable good?  By the way, I agree with your latest Mother Teresa quote.  We no longer know how to love, but we do know how to dip into our neighbors’ pockets to fund our feel-good government.

Recent studies show that conservatives give much more of a percentage of income to charity than rich progressives who vote for all these programs.  Read a book, Who Really Cares by Arthur Brooks and James Wilson, for convincing details.

@Angelo:  [“The Holy Family lived in dire poverty.”]  Your ignorance and self pity has become annoying.  FYI, Joseph was a not just a Carpenter (roughhouse construction) but was skilled in “fine” Carpentry who could also craft interior furniture.  He was among the elite of skilled Jewish tradesman as are Carpenters and Electricians of today.  Joseph was more than able to provide well for Mary and Jesus.  You must have some liberal parish priest teaching this rot.  Romney nor Obama are responsible for the high cost of a college education.  Have your parish priest write a letter of recommendation for your daughter to all of Notre Dame, Gonzago, Loyola, Fordham, Boston College or Santa Clara.  Let’s see how generous these Catholic Fathers are abouting help your “poor” daughters.  Let’s see how well they apply “helping the poor.”  The Holy Family lived in “dire poverty” indeed!  In your dreams, Angelo —just like the dreams of Obama’s father.  Total rot.

@Angelo:  [“The United States of America, because its people no longer know how to love.”]  As any newly married young couple knows, love doesn’t pay the rent or put food on the table.  School of hard knocks, Angie, baby.  I thought all you Roadies for the Grateful Dead had burned out by now.  That is, except for Mr. Barrett (above) who trolls from blog to blog only to get attention and stir up trouble.

@Angelo:  Catholics helping the poor?  Joe Biden’s tax return for last year:  Charitable Giving = less than 2/10’s of 1%.  Pelosi’s net worth is almost 200m.  Wonder how much she helps “the poor?”  You never see her scooping up mashed potatoes at St. Anthony’s Dining Room in San Francisco (her District) on Thanksgiving or Christmas Day.  Haven’t the Bishop doing that either.

@New Observer: Where the hell are you coming up with this Jesus as a “master carpenter,” whatever BS. He was just a carpenter. Geesh, well, perhaps I could’ve come with saying he was not only a carpenter, but he was also a union organizer amongst the carpenters of his area. (At least unlike GOP congressmen, they weren’t getting crocked and skinny dipping into it when they could’ve been actually working and not embarrassing their profession not to mention families, e/a.) C’mon, you talk about “trolling,” hell ... this trolling for make believe BS at its lowest level to prove a point…and that being? Oh, he worked for a living. So did Fr. Jim Martin, SJ who blogs for Huffington Post. Ohhhh, welllll, but he’s not YOUR kind of priest, no doubt. Hey, let’s see if you have the stuff to bother reading his take on the Gospels written just for our times (in hopes to get someody’s attention to all the greedy nonsense guys like you constantly peddle.
I’ve worked all my life and I’m positive Angelo has and so have others who are sick of your bogus “working man’s pontifications.” That’s fine for the Joe the Plumbers of this world. Talk about trolls. He trolls in legitimate political circles and people are dumb enough to take him seriously. Birds of a feather, both of you.
Just from reading what you said in closing to Angelo about colleges, I’ll bet you either never set foot on a college campus (save for a ball game or trolling for babes at some beer party, or you bombed out after the first semester. Hey, I graduated from a Catholic college and I saw plenty of guys like you. Washouts with big mouths and little else. Always had the biggest mouths in the dorms, too. Pathetic, pitiable.

Hey Barrett, now I know where we first saw you.  It was earlier this year in Madison when you, the SEIU and Axelrod’s anarchists were bussed up from Chicago to protest Gov. Walker and vandalize the state capital.  You’ve worked all your life?  On another blog you said you were long since retired and a cranky old man.

Yeah whatever! Heres’s something, Pope Benedict XVl is very much concerned with whats happened and is happening to the US. According to the Diologue of St. Catherine of Sienna. She asks God why there are rich men and poor men. God answers that such is his will, that the rich cannot live without the poor and the poor cannot live without the rich. Without the poor the rich could not be rich and without the rich the poor would not be able to earn a living. So in God’s plan there is a balance. When the rich strike the poor and the poor cannot buy the products and services of the rich, then we in our haughtiness cause an imbalance in God’s plan. Today we call it “The stock market taking a plunge”. Card. Ratzinger spoke of this in the 80’s. He is now concerned about “Greed” and “The growing rift between rich and poor in the US”. When those who have, struck those who did not have, starting in 1996, it became the end of the US as we once knew it. So lets be careful because we just may lose the little we have now, sooner than we don’t want to think about it. If we wish to really stimulate the economy lets stop being idiots and bring God’s balance back without complaint for the pennies we pay in taxes. God’s way works, our sinful ways do not!

Steven Barrett, Its guys like you who can still save our Nation. Its great to read the comments of someone who see’s the world through his eyes and not his wallet.

@Angelo:  [“Yeah whatever”] is not an intelligent response.  So here’s your chance to describe for us Angelo’s balanced and fair tax bracket system.  What % is (“fair” and just) based upon income?  Barrett was asked the same question on another blog but seemed to be caught with his pants down.  Barrett wants ALL your money —yours too, Angelo.  Keep in mind that some states also have State income tax on top of Federal.

Yeah whatever, was my response to some things that were said, of course I could have responded in like manner. As for Taxes, I’m no expert but lets say a Flat Tax for every individual and Company with no deductions allowed. Deductions only for those who really make jobs available, depending on how much they pay the employee. That will end your brainwashed idea that poor people just want to live free.

@Angelo:  No one has said “that poor people just want to live free.”  A professional aristocracy of lifetime government bureaucrats whose jobs depend upon “managing” poor people rather than lifting them out creates a victimization mentality.  Many government policies have created an underclass which promotes suppression and deincentives personal initiative against people to do their best.  Scare tactics like Biden’s “Ya’ll be back in chains” is a perfect example of keeping people in emotional poverty.  There are members of the USCCB who unwittingly are guilty of this along with people like Jesse Jackson and other limousine liberal politicians who go into cardiac arrest when any proposal is made to change and improve the value equation for end users.  Why?  Because their base of support is likely to shrink as more poor people begin to have improved lives for themselves and their families.  At least your Flat Tax with -0- deductions except for those employers adding jobs is a baseline for reasonable discussion.  People like Barrett still are caught with their pants down and refuse to pull them up and participate in how to make things better for everyone.

Sorry Angelo.  When you blindly praise Barrett perhaps you lose sight of the overriding myopia that seems to limit his sight and insights to his own navel.  If only ego would feed the poor, he could save the third world all by himself.

Angelo, Barrett and others who feel rather than think might take the time to read Star Parker’s book and columns about how to really help the poor.  The Angelo, Barrett etc’s heroes still believe in slavery albeit it in a different locale and mode.  They love losing the war on poverty so they can keep the poor, especially the blacks who survive the efforts of their hero Margaret Sanger’s “ovens,” on the government plantation casting their obligatory votes, fraudulent and otherwise, to keep their liberal slavemasters in power.  Liberals want to keep Blacks in their place with poor educations engineered by the teachers’ unions, with constant reminders falsely convincing them that they are inherently inferior and with the constant lies of a media slavishly and shamelessly touting the liars like Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reid, et al.  Somehow liberals have a different view of which “fundamental options” really help and how they should be implemented.  Ryan and Romney are the best hope for America and all of its citizens, regardless of their color, age, location, gender or degree of disability. 

I would like to see an ad showing Obama holding or plunging the scissors into the skull of a baby who survived an abortion.  The caption could be “legitimate murder.”

@Angelo: Thank you for your comments above. Visiting this thread is a real “learning experience.” From most of the repliers, I get the impression they probably have flattering portraits of St. Ayn right (of course) next to any they have of the Blessed Mother. And from New Observer, I just came to learn of new special powers to be in two places at one time.
Sure wish I had them. I’d be in perhaps Florida, or Ohio or PA working hard to get the targeted folks on the GOP’s list of usual suspects for their voter suppression drives all carded up and ready to vote in for Obama in November. Alas, I’ll just have to be old, cranky and satisfied with feeding the poor with my ego.
Sorry kids, young moms and old folks, my ego won’t be of any more help to you than a GOP budget. As for saving the world, well, that’d really be pushing it.
Your boyos gave all the money we’d need to do the job over to the billionaires after they promised you they’d create job, jobs, jobs! Nice try. (We definitely need emoticons!)

@Barrett:  Nice to see you are now in the final throes of your defenseless and bankrupt liberalism.  Another one of your heroes (David Chalian) of Yahoo and PBS also got the boot.  Happy Days !!

Hey Angelo, on the presumption that you are an intelligent person, rather than hang onto the empty, though fancy, words of Barrett, step out and read to arrive at logical conclusions about human dignity and how to honor and preserve it.  A good start would be to read ALL of the sections of the Church’s social justice teachings, starting with Leo XIII to the present.  Socialism and Marxism have never been approved of by the Church but condemned.  Capitalism has been given a thumbs up with some cautions, right along with the ongoing defense of private property and no backing offf from the 5th commandment.  Think!!!!

@ Angelo and @ Barrett:  I hope you watched Paul Ryan at the Republican Convention last night and will watch Mitt Romney give his nomination acceptance speech tonight. If you really want to help the poor, vote for them and get the economy moving again with new businesses which will create most of the new jobs. Most people want to work to support their families and have a better life. Romney/Ryan are our best chance to accomplish this. Watch the movie done by CNN about Romney’s life. He is exceptionally accomplished. He has worked hard his whole life with amazing results. His love for his wife and family and Church are admirable.

Ryan is equally impressive. These guys are qualified to run the country. Who could have ever thought Obama was?  Joe Biden next in line is scarey, to say the least.  He is one of the least intelligent men in Congress.

The speakers at the convention have been wonderful.  Condoleeza Rice’s parents should write a book on how they raised such an accomplished daughter.  Her job as Secretary of State was phenomenal.  Three other speakers that are improving the country by doing a great job are: Mia Love, a mayor in Utah, Nicki Haley, Gov. in South Carolina and Martinez, Gov. in New Mexico.

Better days are ahead for all of us if we vote Obama out.

I commend you on your fine article.

In fact, your thoughts very much reflect my own on the issue.  Yes, the bishops should in all humility recognize the limits of their competency.  At the very least, they could have—as self-respecting liberals would—entered into dialogue with Rep. Paul Ryan.  It would have spared them the egg on their faces. 

No wonder Catholics, both lay and clergy, lack the moral courage to leaven the world with Gospel Truth and Gospel Love as called for by Jesus.  No wonder secular activists and media treat Christ’s faithful as dim wits instead of as “Lumen Gentium”—the Light of all People.  It would sure be nice to know that the bishop’s “got your back.”

It saddens me that the bishop’s issued their letter just when it seemed they were getting their act together to fight the HHS mandate.

Would it not be great if the bishops lived up to their office as “overseers” and stopped being “over-lookers?” 

For example, might they not deal with those dissenting Nuns on the Bus (i.e. nuns off their rockers)?

Just a thought!

God bless,

Fr. Chris

Well said Father Mann.  If the USCCB will not limit itself to its canonical parameters, its high time for our priests and especially our bishops to remind them of the limitations on their teaching authority.

They are more partisan political activists than the good shepherds they are supposed to be. 

Here are some references relative to their attack on Ryan and truth - i.e. Catholic Social Justice Teaching.  Can anyone cite for me any justice issue that is not “social?”  If so, I look forward to it.

Bishop criticizes USCCB committee’s reaction to Ryan budget
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14639
A bishop’s unjust attack on Paul Ryan
By Marc A. Thiessen, Published: April 23
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-bishops-unjust-attack-on-paul-ryan/2012/04/23/gIQAPZGCcT_print.html

The Church: Lobbyist for the Welfare State

0
http://www.acton.org/public-policy/effective-compassion/god/church-lobbyist-welfare-state

Subsidiarity, Solidarity, and the Lay Mission

by PAUL RYAN’S BISHOP:  Bishop Robert C. Morlino

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=10026

The Bishops Were Wrong On The Ryan Budget
Share

by Pat Archbold Saturday, August 11, 2012 7:18 AM Comments (262)

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/the-bishops-were-wrong-on-the-ryan-budget#ixzz25bzGDoQy

i agree you absolutely nailed it

Now I see why blogs are not credible sources of information.

You don’t make a tree bigger by withholding food, and you aren’t going to make this economy, which is just a living extension of people’s effort,  better by withholding investment that creates opportunity for it to grow. That’s what the plan you write of so approvingly does. 

People like R&R take far more, not just mere money, but from our short supply of human spirit, than they will ever give back, and their minions protect and serve them to perpetuate their greed and avarice.

The bishops, though wrong in many other respects, were right, just as La Boetie was 400ish years ago when he wrote about serving politicians and people such as these: http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/laboetie.html.

Though I do understand. It gets easier to live that way when one’s work is moved from the field into the house. Especially the house with the car elevator.

The USCCB were Preciselly Correct with Our Lord’s and Vatican Teachings.  Principally,  totally ignored by the above obviously political agenda,  pro-GOP/TEA article by Pat Archbold ignores key Inherent Evils of the alleged ‘pro-life’ group named above:  (1) Cutting taxes,  especially on The Richest few   who have vast exemptions/credits uniquelly theirs; (2)  which would Increase the infamous National Debt,  as unbiased studies all show;  (3) The Principal Focus on totally unnecessary Military Spending (The USA spends more on our military than the rest of the world combined); (4) although we have no inherent Need for same; (5) Primary USA focus is Threatening and using our Military Power against other Nations, based on false reasons we state (ie:  Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan,  etc., etc.; (6) Without Negotiations to solve the problems without military use,  as Blessed John Paul II The   Great observed on his death bed,  fully knowledgeably; (7) Those unjustifiable proposals paid for by drastic,  unjustifiable actual cuts in   basic Human Services like (a) Food Stamps,  especially for children (Mine were cut drastic $40 monthly recently by TEA/GOP pressure on Obama/Democrats;  mine are Essential Need for Medically required Type Insulin dependant Diabetes 55 years complex 2500 calorie Diet); (b)  Essential basic aids to the large elderly population;  (7c) literal   govt welfare to The wealthiest/most profitable 2% in the USA: (7c1) $35 million federal grants annually to our greatest profit corps in world History:  Exxon-Mobil and GE,  which have paid zero taxes to the USA only in untold years, (7c2) Massive subsidies to Mega-Farm mega corporations for   a decade,  as   USCCB cited,  etc.,  etc.; (8) Tiny or no Profit   Legally   required Tax Payments by the Most Profitable; (9) not even Contractually required Royalty/fees by (9a) Oil drilling, (9b) Mining, (9c) Timber cutting on federal lands,  Etc.,  Etc., Etc. (10)    The USCCB are not any more “leftist”  than Our Lord and Our Faith are:  misnomered “social concerns for the Needy” are our centerpiece, (11) (a) SSA and Medicare are Self-Supporting/self-funded by paycheck minor deductions, (11b) have actual 1%  total overhead costs, (11c) are,  in fact,  ideal Insurance programs,  totally   non-profit, (11d) vs the 8-21%  overhead of insurance business companies, (11e) are 2 examples of the ideal nature of one-payer/lowest cost/most productive (11f) National systems done in far higher standard of living   European Union Nations, (11g) much lower par-capita costs.

hi men, my spouse and i finially determined ways to get my ex-mate rear. .. significantly was your most memorable person on the planet. take a look if you’d like advice.  http://www.squidoo.com/fixing-a-relationship-with-your-ex.

Gaza: Clinton works for truce ‘in the days ahead’
Israeli air strikes shook the Gaza Strip and Palestinian rockets struck across the border as U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton held talks in Jerusalem in the early hours of Wednesday, seeking a truce that can hold back Israel’s ground troops.
Hamas, the Islamist movement controlling Gaza, and Egypt, whose new, Islamist government is trying to broker a truce, had floated hopes for a ceasefire by late Tuesday; but by the time Clinton met Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu it was clear there would be more argument, and more violence, first.

Hamas leaders in Cairo accused the Jewish state of failing to respond to proposals and said an announcement on holding fire would not come before daylight on Wednesday. Israel Radio quoted an Israeli official saying a truce was held up due to “a last-minute delay in the understandings between Hamas and Israel”.

Who is Hamas? 5 questions about the Palestinian militant group.

An initial halt to attacks may, however, not see the sides stand their forces down from battle stations immediately; Clinton, who flies to Cairo to see Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi later on Wednesday, spoke of a deal “in the days ahead”.

As she arrived in Israel after nightfall, Israel was stepping up its bombardment. Artillery shells and missiles fired from naval gunboats offshore slammed into the territory and air strikes came at a frequency of about one every 10 minutes.

Much as I thought the Catholic Church is in a mess on economics. It’s failure to understand how modern money works in a sovereign economy leads to articles like this one of Pat Archbolds that lazily accepts Neo-Liberal dogma in regard to the US money system that has horrendous consequences for many citizens:-

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/02/real-dollars-and-funny-money.html

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/03/the-i-o-u-in-the-u-s-dollar.html#more-5001

http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/06/mmp-blog-2-basics-of-macro-accounting.html