“Patrick, Saying God will provide is not denying responsibility. It isn’t even a little analogous.”
I apologize. I must have misunderstood what you were saying.
To me, it seemed that I was saying we need to take responsibility, and you replied by saying that God will provide, and I guess I took your comment to be meant in a way contradictory to my own.
I retract that criticism. I was being too adversarial.
While I understand now why you thought I was trolling, and thus hold no issue with your calling me that given the misunderstanding I was expressing, I still believe that “Patrick, You are obviously very in love with yourself. You are wonderful and no one else can be wonderful. Just you.” constitutes name calling of a sort, however.
“Saying you haven’t had a chance to be introduced to the priest who so offends you, now THAT is denying responsibility.”
I don’t know who he is. I have never been told his name and I respect the privacy of my friend.
How can I admonish him personally when I don’t know which person he is?
“And years of remaining unrepentant in sin and you are counseling the young man? No you are enabling years of homosexual activity and who knows how many other young men lead into sin by him.”
That’s quite the accusation.
And I apologise for saying I was “counseling” him. That was a misstatement. I am simply showing him respect, compassion, and sensitivity. I listen when he is willing to share his hurts, and I console him in ways that I ethically can in hopes he will eventually see the good of the Church through me enough to heal the wounds he suffered at the hands of others.
I am not enabling his activity. He fully understands that I do not approve of it. He also understands that I will show him love even if he is a sinner and that I will not abandon him like the Catholics he knew before.
Furthermore I demand you retract your utterly baseless accusation that he has been abusing young adults. How dare you make that sort of claim about someone you known next to nothing about? Would you like people spreading such rumours about you?
“How can I tell if the priest is helping or not? By his actions. He has reinforced a temptation to sin. Not hard at all to tell. Don’t need to meet him. His actions have lead to an article published in a national paper and is already creating division. The fruit is rotten.”
The fact remains we don’t know the full situation and I, for one, am not going to jump to condemnation until I KNOW rather than SPECULATE about the details of which I am unaware.
You may be right.
That’s right, you heard me.
You may be right about this situation.
But the account we have heard may also be incomplete or flawed.
Maybe those boys were receiving aid from that priest and their recovery was simply progressing slowly.
Wounds don’t always heal instantly, even spiritual ones.
Maybe the Father felt that making them feel like outcasts at a particularly vunlerable stage would undo the progress he had made with them or drive them away completely.
Maybe he was wrong but still wasn’t meaning to advocate sin. It’s possible he rationalized out of good intentions. That would not justify his actions, but it also would not justify accusing him of promoting sin.
We simply do not know enough about the situation to make the kinds of accusations that have been flying in this article and the comments to it.
“As to your challenge with definitions: self-pity is feeling sorry for oneself. Self-pity is particularly destructive when it keeps a person focused on a negative trait or sinful inclination instead of helping them out of it.”
It wasn’t a challenge. I just really wasn’t understanding what you were intending to say, so I asked for clarification.
And given that definition of self-pity, I have to say that you were utterly wrong in using it.
I do not support feeling sorry for oneself. I support HEALING emotional wounds so that people DO NOT feel sorry for themselves.
I support not reopening old wounds that may lead to self-pity, or worse, self-loathing.
I do NOT support actions that make people feel unwelcome in the church, because that ultimately will RESULT in self-pity.
I did not pity my uncle, and he did not pity himself. He suffered, yes. He wished he didn’t have to suffer, of course, everyone would. But he accepted that his life would contain suffering and offered it up as a sacrifice rather than dwell on it.
He was STRONG. He was COURAGEOUS. He was also vulnerable, as we all are. The reason he was able to be so strong and courageous was because he knew the Church would be there for him when he was weak, that they would give him their strength.
He learned that because people showed gentle kindness when he was hurting. He learned it because no one in the Church ever turned their back on him and said “Better hurt feelings than damnation.”
Helping people when they swallow their pride and earnestly beg for help is not indulging their self-pity, it is HELPING THOSE IN NEED.
When a young man desperately wants to become fit to enter the Seminary, to overcome his struggle with same-sex attraction and move past it so he can live a virtuous life of service, IT IS NOT INDULGING SELF PITY to help him with that.
In fact, it wasn’t until he was turned away, treated as if he were a leper who could never become more than a pervert and a sinner, that he learned self-pity.
“Grooming is accomplished by many techniques including undermining self-esteem as a young man or woman and creating doubts of worth or loveability, separating children from the love and values of parents or making them doubt it, deadening their consciences to the sin and consequences of homosexual acts, working to create an emotional vulnerability that craves acceptance, disparaging virtue, goodness and anything that would create prohibitions to homosexual acts, making a joke of what is not funny at all and what is sacred, encouraging young boys to go as a couple to a prom, setting kids up for failure with the opposite sex and on and on and on.”
Okay, you’ve told me techniques that are used for accomplishing “grooming,” but I’m still unclear on what “grooming” itself is.
At times you use the term as if it were a synonym for child molestation, and I just want to be clear on if that is what you mean by it or not.
No accusations, I’m just trying to make sure I correctly understand what you are saying so I don’t accidentally argue against a point that isn’t the one you were making.
“As to your total reliance on the Catechism, I would suggest you open your Bible from time to time.”
I am not “totally reliant” on the Catechism, I am simply criticizing your apparent desire to be completely independent of it.
“Compassion and sensitivity do not mean collaboration and cooperation with sinful behavior.”
It also does not mean abandoning someone in a time of spiritual crisis! It does not mean throwing accusations at someone who is begging for help. It does not mean ranting about “the homos” like certain commenters in this thread have.
It does not mean calling them a sinner and then refusing to help them overcome their sin, even when they came to you to ask for that very help.
You also seem to have forgotten that the Catechism also mandates RESPECT toward them.
Respect like not making hyperbolic accusations of child molestation that you do not have facts to support. Respect like not denying the physical violence they suffer at the hands of others.
“And your responses have bashed the priest who was straightforward with the young man. He has become THE reason the man is away from the Church when really it is the man’s own psychological and spiritual defects hiding behind the slight from the priest that are the cause and you enable it with your outlook.”
I was simply showing two situations and JUDGING THEM BY THEIR FRUITS.
Or are you the only one qualified to do that?
THE BOY WANTED TO OVERCOME HIS INCLINATION! He was not only ready but TRYING to repent and rid himself of further temptation!
He wanted to become WORTHY of God’s grace and love. He wanted to be free of his temptation, or at least to be taught how to reliably resist it!
Is that not EXACTLY what you would want of that boy?
“And I am beginning to see one source of the problem. You rely heavily on “counseling”. You have replaced God with psychology I think.”
Psychology is simply medicine for the mind and emotions. Nothing more. It is a science dedicated to healing and easing pain just like the practice of physical medicine. In fact, the two fields overlap to a surprising degree.
It is a tool, nothing more. You imagine it as some malicious belief system, but it is nothing more than something people use. Like other tools we can misuse it, and like other types of medicine we can sometimes not fully understand parts of it, but it no more corrupt or corrupting than surgery or physical therapy.
It is fallible, as it is made of human knowledge, which is also fallible, but that doesn’t mean it should be thrown out any more than the science of medicine should be thrown out just because it is also infallible for the very same reason.
“Jesus never needed psychology and never taught it to his disciples.”
He never performed or taught neurosurgery or blood transfusions either. Very bad example.
“You lack faith and I don’t.”
How dare you?
You seriously claim you aren’t namecalling and then you say THAT?
I never once questioned your faith, yet YOU CALL ME A TROLL?
“You are going to have everything your manmade way and fixed your manmade way and I am going to love and pray and do works of charity and trust in God’s providence.”
See, there? That’s where I got the impression you were saying God will take care of it as an excuse for your inaction.
I recommend we serve as God’s tool, and you condemn me as faithless for trying to provide direct aid.
“Men can never know enough to get it right. We are dependent on our Creator whether or not we admit it.”
So… what? We can’t get it right so we shouldn’t try to help? We are flawed, therefore we should not lend a hand in what limited way we can?
That sounds like SELF-PITY talking.
“When your friends fall into Christ’s arms instead of yours, they will be healed. He is alive and waiting.”
I’m not asking them to fall into my arms. I’m simply trying to help them walk in the right direction, to slightly mitigate the pain of betrayal they suffered at the hands of other Catholics who acted rashly and scared them away from the Church.
I’m trying to lead them to Christ. Your advise seems to consist of “Forget them! Leave them to fend for themselves even though you know that won’t save them!”
“I have experienced it in my own life and know how real grace is.”
And I have seen hundreds, if not thousands of Miracles happen when God calls a fallible human to come to the aid of another.
Do you know how many converts I have seen who came to the Church because they saw how willing we are to provide aid to those in pain?
Do you know how many people I have seen make real sacrifices to help those in need? How much suffering I have seen alleviated by the Church? How much kindness and generosity and love?
Trusting in Providence does not mean inaction or passivity. God does good works constantly by putting us, the Church, in positions to do help and calling us to act on it.
“As to your desire for statistics, you are old enough to know that they can be manipulated to say anything and are fairly worthless because of how often they are abused.”
If you had simply said you couldn’t find the statistics, I would have trusted that you had seen something somewhere and just couldn’t find it.
However now you’re offering rationalizations instead of evidence for a claim that I suspect you know you can’t back up.
Where did you even HEAR that Catholic students are more bullied than gay students? DID you even hear it anywhere? Or did you just hyphothesize it and then present it as fact?
“And Christians aren’t as prone to count offenses as other groups so reporting would always be an issue.”
Maybe so, but that doesn’t justify inventing what you think the numbers actually are and claiming them as fact.
If finding accurate numbers is a challenge, just say so, don’t invent a conclusion you suspect is true when you don’t have the facts.
“Suffice it to say that I know many Christians battered every single day whether it is in schools or workplaces or other venues.”
And suffice it to say that I know many gay people battered every single day whether it is in schools or workplaces or other venues!
You are not justified in making up claims that you have no reliable evidence to support!
The best numbers available show that nearly 9 out of 10 gay students report being bullied in the past year.
Those numbers have come up about the same each year, even between multiple different groups doing the research.
It might not be perfect, but it’s the best data we can find, unless you know of some that I don’t, in which case, again, feel free to show me.
“And there is more you can say than people with same sex attraction are sinning. You can say that sin harms many people. It causes a rippling affect that tears up families, harms children, undermines marriage and you hate that. Because you should.”
Sure, I can also say that mothers kicking their children out of the home in less than 24 hours after that child admitted to experiencing same-sex attraction harms people. It tears up families, harms children, undermines marriage, and I HATE THAT.
I can say that when a priest in charge of a school has one of his students ask for help overcoming same-sex attraction and that priest looks at him like he’s a monster and turns away, refusing to provide any aid in a moment of dire need and desperate struggle to achieve real lasting repentance and righteousness, that destroys SOULS. AND I HATE THAT.
When people talk about “the homos” and engages in other invective, and rationalizes it with FAITH, that destroys the faith of others, it harms people, it harms children, it undermines those seeking salvation. AND I HATE THAT.
I’m not bashing anyone, though. I’m criticizing the ACTIONS. I wish the people were more open to God’s will so they would not engage in such harmful, hurt inflicting action.