“If the Church is not on fire, you should not be talking.”  Amen.

AMEN is right.

Left a parish last year where the noise level was deafening.  Give me silence and the Blessed Sacrament front and center.

“Community” means “we are not really serious of this Real Prensence thing. This is all about feeling good about us”. A parish that stresses community is a parish that I run away from.

I would love to meet Apunzel. :)

agreed—one particular parish in my area—you’d think you’re in a casino prior to Mass.

This is what the fellowship hall and coffee hour is for AFTER liturgy.  Unfortunately, most churches do not use their fellowship halls on a regular basis (yes, there are regular events like the KoC pancake breakfast or the annual Lenten Fish Fry, etc) for one reason or another.  As a result, there is an artificial effort or at least a laxity that is permitted to make up for the lack of community that exists everywhere (not just at the parish level).  In a large parish it might be difficult, but this would be an excellent opportunity for someone to volunteer to make coffee and organize a pot luck effort.  Then the pastor, could magnanimously invite the chatterers to fellowship following liturgy and to silent revery before….

Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes.  What’s more I think the Novus Ordo perpetuates noise to some degree.  It’s as though we’re not allowed to have any silence at Mass.  The organist (or keyboardist or pianist) feels compelled to play music through every second of Mass.  There has to be a post-Communion hymn, or just some light music.  Never silence.  That does bug me.

For regular Sunday Masses, our parish does fairly well in keeping pre-Mass noise down. But this is largely in part to the fact that our pastor has taken several opportunities to remind people of the need for it.

However, sadly, there is a VAST difference in larger Masses, especially those with many non-regular Mass attenders. Before Christmas and Easter Masses, it is very loud.

Sadly, people don’t get it. Before a First Communion Mass (at a regularly scheduled Mass time), Father had to speak from the ambo to remind the large congregation to quiet down (essentially) to allow people the opportunity to pray and prepare for Mass. And far too many people actually thought he was being too stern or abrupt with them! They just didn’t get it.

I teach First Reconciliation and First Eucharist. My first year teaching sacraments, during individual confessions, Father had to get up FOUR times to remind the families to remain quiet in the Church! We didn’t have a Hall at the time, but have a large “Gathering Space” that they were invited to move to for conversations. I’d been so concerned about the children’s behavior that I hadn’t even thought that I’d have to give any guidance to the parents. You can be sure I stress this many, many times in every year since.

We do need to recapture the general sense of awe and reverence in our churches.

The starting point (but not the only resources, admittedly) on liturgical matters is the GIRM, which—believe it or not!—says something about the value and necessity of silence in the liturgy:

Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times. Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. [...] Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner. (GIRM 45)

There are many things the GIRM considers “commendable” and “praiseworthy” (chalice veils, anybody?), and I think celebrations of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite would be better if priests and liturgists took those parts to heart.

Under our former pastor, the noise was worse.  Much better now, and I admit, I’m sometimes a culprit. Once before the Mass started, our former pastor had his mic on and said, “Okay, let’s get this show on the road.”

Talk about noise.

My wife and I left our previous parish in part because of what we perceived as a lack of reverence prior to Mass.  During a time that could have been better spent prayerfully preparing for Mass, people were chatting, greeting each other, walking across the church to say hell, (if not even shouting hello across the church… or as it was known, “worship space”).  The pastor would occasionally request that people maintain a respectful quiet, or at the very least keep conversation to a “dull roar”, but his words were either unheeded or never heard above the din of activity.  The church had a large (and I mean VERY large) social hall right outside of the “worship space”, but no one congregated in there, prefering instead to do their greeting and chit-chatting inside the church. 
The kicker was when my wife commented to our pastor about the noise, and suggested that she could lead Rosary before Mass, in order to foster a prayerful and respectful environment prior to the celebration of the Mass.  She was told that it would be inappropriate, because not everyone would want to participate and we could not force that on other parishioners!  We were out of there within the month.
I think we need to start building churches with “cry rooms” for adults who can’t keep their traps shut before and during Mass.

What I meant above is “to say hello”, no to say “hell”... Big difference there… whoops.

How can I tactfully send this to my pastor?  I have spoken to him 4 times over the past 5 years he has been in our parish - no luck.  it is impossible to try and pray a rosary before mass because he is leading the conversations in a LOUD voice!  I feel very unwelcome in my parish.

i had to move churches as noise soooo bad , i like to go early and say prayers ,and the church i go to now is a very large church and no one talks , and if they do its very low i am shocked to see that its used as a social place (church that is) where i used to go , as a matter of fact alot of catholic churches are so noisey , GOD BLESS the catholic church AMEN

At my local parish, which I avoid whenever I can, this sort of banter is an essential part of the liturgy, thanks to the pastor. “Please greet those around you and welcome them!” is the command with which we begin each Mass, right after the entrance procession. On the bright side, at least one common Novus Ordo practice has been ended at that parish: Extraordinary Ministers are no longer pouring the consecrated wine from a large IHOP-style glass pitcher into crystal wine glasses. I don’t know how the pastor was persuaded to make that change—I’ve lost touch with the parish—but God bless the people behind it.

Fortunately, I have two EF’s within driving distance. I pity those Catholics who have no alternatives to the typical post-VII protestant-style nonsense—which, unfortunately, is still the rule rather than the exception.

Oh, and one of the groups that provides the music for many of the Masses at the parish in question is called “Joyful Noise.” The name says it all. The music is fine, but not at all appropriate for a Catholic liturgy. Only someone who has a completely protestant understanding of what we do in Church on Sundays can think that such “joyful noise” is appropriate.

Our local parish has three Priests in residence and one stands directly in front of the baptismal font, located at the back of the Church, shaking hands as people enter for Mass.  He will “goof off” with the kids by moving his hand in a circle so they can not grab it.  Most people think this is quite a hoot. 

We now go to a Church which celebrates the EF.

At my local parish church in Liberty, MO, (St. James), it is physically impossible to pray or prepare for Mass actually AT the church. The church itself is either awash in people guffawing and shooting the breeze “What’d I tell you about those Packers, Jim!?”, or it is being filled with the talentless racket of the ‘choir’ doing ‘30 minutes of pre-Mas worship’ in the form of off-key pop garbage tunes from a song book I’m sure they must have fished out of the dumpster behind the local Episcopalian church.

Needless to say, I don’t go to that parish anymore.

@Mike,

I live in KC area and up North of the river.  Loud Masses must be some sort of epidemic in our area.  :) 

We switched to Old St. Patrick’s Oratory, (Latin Mass), at 8th and Cherry in downtown KC, MO.  It is much more reverent.  If you do not mind me asking where did you go now? 

KCHawk

Two words, Pat: Love it!

And, by the way, with five children of my own, I can entirely identify with the noise levels.

I first saw our then-new Bishop Cordileone at my eldest son’s confirmation at the new Cathedral in Oakland. I knew we were truly blest when he twice tried to get the crowd to take their loud discussions outside after Mass. Sadly, the crowd ignored him - ignored the express request of their bishop standing right there in the cathedral - and kept on yakking like it was baseball game.

My wife got a chance to meet the bishop recently, and relayed the story of how glad we were to see him at least try to get people to be quiet in church and show some reverence. He replied that perhaps the younger priests would help him restore some sense of the sacred to church.

We can pray.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, PATRICK!

Thank You - Our church is loud also - There is no quiet time to prepare for liturgy or time after to reflect on what took place on the altar.  People actually seem to gravitate toward the altar after liturgy and hold their conversations there.  But I blame that on the jokes that pop up from the priests before and during liturgy (while they are serving on the altar.  Reverance went out of the Church a long time ago. Now it seems to be more of a meeting area than a worship area.  We are too busy wanting to be a “community” and with that comes noise.  Bishop should write a letter on this and have it sent out to all diocese in the US along with a hint about appropriate attire for church not for the weather.

Yep. It’s all about us and our “community”. I can’t even find a corner in the church after Mass where I can quietly thank God for receiving Holy Communion. Or maybe think about how it was that Our Lady brought Our Savior to us.

What a racket! People at every weekend Mass feel the need to “be community” as soon as the priest has left the altar.

Kids running around up and down the aisles and chasing one another through the pews. Our Tabernacle isn’t even in the main section of the church. It’s over in separate little cove-type room down and away from the altar. And even after making your way over there to give thanks, the ha-ha-ha-ing and the on-going exchange of verbal bellowing from the “community” in front of the altar really makes you wonder. Not ponder. Wonder. Where exactly are we? The community rec center, perhaps. The show is over and now we laugh and talk about us. 

Yep, and if you’re not one to join in with all the jovial “community” activity, sorry to say you’re a bit of a freak. Just who do you think you are, anyway, acting all quiet and prayerful after Mass?

This is just standard “community” behavior in every diocese I’ve been to. Jesus and Mary. Do we really have any clue how self-absorbed and nauseating we have become?

It’s really much more important that people like you, and that you look well-dressed, etc. etc. and join in all the fun. That’s what makes us happy.
That’s why Jesus died on the cross. So we could have fun and be happy and well-off all the days of our lives.

Purgatory ought to be interesting.

Thanks - good point…

I hope to be received in the Church at the Easter Vigil, so please forgive what may be an naivee question. Is it customary for those who provide the music, vocalists and instrumentalists alike, to practice in the choir loft until moments before mass begins? Most unsettling…
I should have known what sort of reverence to expect. I visited this parish church a few years ago for the community Good Friday service. Among the musical offerings was “I Don’t Know How to Love Him,” from the musical Jesus Christ Superstar. <shudder>

“In my judgment, a major reason for this is the fact that the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in a separate chapel that is so removed from the main body of the church that no one knows where the Blessed Sacrament is.”

Where did the idea come from of moving the Blessed Sacrament to a place away from the center of the alter, and in many churchs, to a separate room?  All the newer, modern churchs have this arrangement designed into the church.  Why?

I definitely agree with the issue of noise. I know that at my parish back home, what substantially aids in maintaining silence is 24 hour perpetual adoration. There is always a parishioner or two there in the sanctuary giving an hour to Jesus, even the times before and after mass. If your parish can possibly do this, then the idea of taking away the silence would be an intrusion on someone’s time given to Jesus, and of course the rest of the people preparing for mass. A rosary before mass also is a great way to emphasize silence and a prayerful mode. Also, I think parish priests should speak about how sacred the sanctuary is, in their homilies, perhaps touching upon the Old Testament idea of the tent where the holies of holies lay. They should also speak about the importance to prepare for mass, entering into a prayerful and reverent manner. Jesus is with us, in the holy sacrament and people just do not reverence this fact. I am so blessed to be at a school and a parish church at home where silence before mass is constant and expected.

one question:
As one involved in music ministry, I was wondering about people’s comments about music being present throughout the entire mass. I know that I usually do not allow for breaks of silence, because when the piano or organ stops, the church seems to have many little distractions which add up. The music seems to have a focus of sound, and if played quietly and reverently, seems to help with the prayerful atmosphere. Any suggestions on if I should allow moments of silence, and if so, how long would be desirable and what parts of the mass? Thank you and God bless!

@Meghan4life,

I think allowing for silence throughout the Mass is necessary.  At first people may be uncomfortable and try to fill it up with talking and noise but they will eventually adapt.

If your choir has the ability to do Gregorian Chant that may be a good thing to implement. 

KCHawk

stilbelieve asked “Where did the idea come from of moving the Blessed Sacrament to a place away from the center of the alter, and in many churchs, to a separate room?” Why, have you not read in the scripture, “They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid Him?” :-) All kidding aside, there is an excellent article on this at http://www.adoremus.org/7-899Tabernacle.html
meghan4life asks, “Any suggestions on if I should allow moments of silence, and if so, how long would be desirable and what parts of the mass?” I regret if this gives offense. None is intended, nor any criticism of your keyboard skills. There should never be “noodling” or “vamping” at the keyboard. The appointed hymns and service music are what they are. If those appointed to serve, whether at the altar or the lectern or the keyboard, respect the need of the people for reverence, then reverence will result. Only you know if your pastor has enough spine to make your gift of reverent silence one which parishioners can employ.

@Robert and KC Hawk

Thank you for your insight. It is good to know what people think about this topic. I think I will start trying to add some silence and see what happens. :)

Pastors, Are you listening?  Or is it too noisy to hear us?

Meghan4Life, I agree with Robert.  I’m one of those weird people who need silence in order to really concentrate on my personal conversation with God.  Even background instrumental music is too distracting for me. My teenaged son is the same way and gets very frustrated at Mass when the music at Communion time keeps him from communing with our Savior, who is physically present within him for so short a time!  Just my two cents’ worth.  (I’m probably weird, though; unlike most of my contemporaries, I never could do my homework as a teen with music or TV on in the background.)

While doing research for my first book, “Raising a Large Family’, I interviewed the father of five small children. He commented about the noise level in his household: “By the time I am fifty I expect to be deaf”. I would love to revisit the many large families I interviewed some twenty five years ago, to see what happened to the parents.  Have they all gone deaf? Are they living in abject poverty? Have their large families brought them joy as older folk? Though many of these families were nonCatholic, all had some religious beliefs.  Noone it seems has a large family without a belief and faith in the Almighty!I imagine all would have concurred that quiet time in church, synigogue or temple would have been a much appreciated respite!

Once people cease talking when they shouldn’t, maybe they will have enough air and energy to sing when they should!

Katherine, that WOULD be interesting!  I was the 11th child in my family growing up, and my dad was always hard of hearing.  Was that because of the 10 kids who came before me (surely I didn’t contribute to it!), or was that because he was in WW2, and after the war, he worked in a noisy factory?  Enquiring minds want to know!  (My mom’s hearing was fine.) (And, getting back to the point of this article, they both made us be quiet before & during Mass.)

Thank you for this great article, and thank your wonderful Bishop for speaking firmly, but charitably, to your previous pastor, and a huge THANK YOU to your new pastor!  There is great hope in the young priests coming from seminaries these days, at least here in St. Louis, and it appears in your diocese also, especially with such a strong Bishop.

Thank you, dear God for this blog.  I thought I was alone in my suffering about the Theatrics of what used to be the holy mass. I was so helped by all the others who suffer from all the noise and after communion by competing with the “take me out to the ballgame” singers, all the while I’m trying to thank God for all his help! And while I can maybe understand some of that, I cannot understand why the congregation applauds anything of which they approve…including a rousing homily. Our parish is now a Catholic Community, perhaps it should be renamed again, only this time as Tne Catholic Sunday Theater…with tickets sold at the door!

Finally, someone else who thinks Mass is too noisy!!!! My husband and I want to find a parish where we can go to Mass without the talking, and music, all the time during Mass….! we can not even meditate after the Eucharist! There is loud singing all the time! And oh those announcements and clapping even before Mass has ended!!!!

Thank you! (I’ll be silent now, so as not to disturb others who may be in prayer.)

“If the Church is not on fire, you should not be talking.”

Wow, wish we had one of those guys in our diocese.

“Heaven is a place where everything that is not music is silence.” - George MacDonald

I don’t know if George MacDonald was Catholic or not, but the quotation is very appropriate.

The presence of the Blessed Sacrament in the church specially at the back of the altar will encourage silence. However these days the Euchrist is preserved in adjucent chapel or a side altar.  The authorities may kindly consider the need for placing the Eucharist in prominent place as before Vatican II

Our church building is rectangle shaped.  The altar is in the middle of one of the long ends, flanked by the “band” and the Tabernacle on the other.  Our new pastor has been known to turn his microphone on before Mass to remind people that we should be quiet as we wait for Mass to begin.  I am thankful for that.

I am sad to admit that I do get caught up with friends after Mass and start chatting before I get out of the church.  You may wonder why I don’t switch parishes.  I live in an area where there are not a lot of options and what options there are, they don’t offer much different.

@Nora, I was at the parish I grew up in over the weekend.  We had to greet our neighbors.  UGH!  Our choir warms us up as well.  Can you tell I am in CA?

alot of comments on this blog use pastor , i am irish but i live in uk and we have priest , also why do some of your churches clap i have never known anyone clap after priest homily , and church is place of worship to the LORD our GOD , hope i can get info back , and GOD BLESS YOU ALL

To Jacob, George Mac wasn’t Catholic, he was a Congregationalist, and was for at least part of his life one of their ministers. Brilliant writer, though.
To Nora, I’m coming from several years of high-church Anglicanism. Smells and bells and the Daily Office. Good stuff!! However, even with reservations about the level of reverence reflected in the people’s worship, I HAD to come to the place where God is made present in the most special way.
To Kathleen, a parish church might enjoy the services of several priests, but only one will be THE pastor, the priest deputized by the Bishop to care for the souls of the Parish.

@Meghan4life—I would prefer that the organist/pianist not fill every moment of silence with music.  While I love music and served as organist many, many years ago, there are times when even the nicest hymn being played is still distracting.  I’m specifically thinking in our parish of how the offertory hymn is sung during the time that the ushers are taking up the collection and a family brings the gifts to the altar—the organist continues to play, without any singing, right up to the point the congregation stands to say “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands. . . .”  How much better, in my opinion, it would be if there were silence in the church and if the congregation were focusing on what the priest was doing in preparing the altar and praying the initial prayers in the Liturgy of the Eucharist (with prayer responses we’re supposed to give, “Blessed be God forever” but that never happen because the congregation is focusing on watching the organist, forgetting that she’s not there to entertain us, but rather that we are there to worship God and participate in the sacrifice of the Mass).  It is not necessary to fill up every empty space with sound.  Often, the best words from God come as a whisper in the quiet.

@Mike and @KCHawk—we’re noisy down here in Wyandotte County, too.  I go to St. Patrick’s off of I-435 out by the Kansas Speedway and The Legends.  Our choir practices in the church for 30 - 45 minutes before the 9:30 Mass every Sunday. . . very hard to focus on prayer.  I don’t know why they can’t go to the middle school music room in the basement of the church.  That same Mass is “family” Mass—the pre-communion age children leave just before the first reading and head to the basement for their own “liturgy” and then come back any time between the Prayers of the Faithful and the start of the Eucharistic Prayer. . . again, very distracting.  We have no cry room, so that’s used as the excuse for not removing screaming/wailing babies/toddlers who won’t be calmed within a few seconds.  After Communion, the small children are invited forward to get their bulletin, which results in an amazing cacophony of sounds, between the children running and giggling and the adults exclaiming over how cute they are.  Well, they are adorable, but what lesson are they learning from this?  That it’s okay to run and giggle?  It’s such a jolt to go from the halfway calm moments of “silence” after Communion to that noise and then back again to a semblance of calm for the final blessing and sending forth.

Our calmest Mass is the 7:30 a.m.—all the “cranky old people who don’t like children” go to this one.  It’s quiet, people are there to worship and pray, a Rosary is prayed at 7:00 a.m.  Our 5:00 pm Saturday is second-quietest, and the 11:30 am Sunday is a close second in noise to the 9:30, but lacking the “children’s liturgy” and that accompanying noise of moving in and out of the church.

As others have commented here, our pastor attempts to restore order, but too many people, I guess, think it’s all about them, not about God.

@kathleen tierney—I’m one of the people who hate clapping in church.  I won’t do it.  I’ve probably been labeled a grouch.  Oh, well.  I don’t care what people call me as long as God calls me home to Him.  We have two priests—they are designated “pastor” and “associate pastor.”  In the business of running a large parish, the pastor shoulders the responsibility.  So they are still priests, but the “pastor” term designates who’s ultimately in charge of parish decisions.

Our pastor leads the applause.  He’s a good man, and he’s genuinely showing appreciation or support for whatever he’s applauding.  For example—a visiting pro-life youth group makes a presentation with request for financial contributions—our pastor will applaud at the end of the presentation, not so much as to say “job well done,” but more to show his support for their request.  On the other hand, he’ll also lead the applause for the choir if they “perform” a hymn in addition to the regular hymns.  That drives me insane.  In my understanding of liturgical music, the choir is there to inspire the rest of us to sing, not to entertain us.

We had an associate pastor for a couple years who’d studied at seminary in Rome.  He noted that the Italians applaud a lot during Masses, not as Americans applaud in appreciation of fine entertainment but as a means of showing they enthusiasm for God.  Has anyone else heard this?

My apologies for writing so many comments. . . but sometimes, I just have to let it out!

I posted the link to this blog on my Facebook page the other day.  I’ve had none of my FB friends write anything that they agree with this article.  Several of them wrote to tell me that I’m just too cranky—not quite the term they used, but I know them well enough to know that’s what they mean! 

Now, given that I’m in my 50s and they’re in their 30s, I’m wondering if there’s a generational difference at play here.  These “kids” are devout Catholics, with well-behaved children of their own.  But they weren’t even born by the time the Second Vatican Council changes finally got implemented here in Kansas.  So maybe because all they’ve ever seen are guitar Masses, joyful noise worship, and community, they don’t really understand the absolute beauty of praying in a quiet church.  I don’t know. . . .

I also wish someone would present some ideas on how to kindly and tactfully present this blog to our pastors.  I really respect our pastor, but I’m just not envisioning any way of handing this to him and asking him to turn down the congregation’s volume, send the choir to the basement to practice, and eliminate the children’s liturgy and children’s bulletin.

i have just wrote comment (a very long one) and its on something else oh well GOD will know prayers i ask you all please light candles and pray for our catholic church becomes holy place of worship all the time like it used to be when at mass before he was elected pope he asked all cardinals to vote not about change to suit modern time so i live and pray for QUITENESS amen

@Kim in KC, I think you’re right: I think that it is in part a generational thing because the younger people haven’t ever seen anything different. The ones who have had a Catholic education have usually been programmed to believe that the Real Presence of Christ at the Mass is in the People of God, who are the Body of Christ.  The Eucharist hasn’t been stressed as the Source & Summit of Christian Life in a lot of post-V2 Catholic education programs.  And frankly, I think that many young people don’t know what to do with silence during the Mass. It’s a sound-byte and talking-points generation in which the media have programmed young people to move their attention on to something else every 10 seconds or so.  I’m in my 40s, so even I don’t know pre-Vatican II Masses, but unlike many in my generation or younger, I’ve studied liturgy on my own and realize some of the theology behind what we do (and don’t do) at Mass; proper education is the key, I believe, to getting people to appreciate and fully participate in the Mass—which will result in appropriate behavior, including appropriate periods of silence.

On the topic of clapping, the only time (in my opinion) that it MIGHT be appropriate to clap at Mass is in order to show welcome, such as in welcoming a newly baptized child of God into the community.  I’m not even sure that it’s appropriate then, but it’s a human desire to show them welcome, and clapping seems to be the most appropriate way to show welcome within the context of a sacred liturgy.  I think it’s NEVER appropriate to clap for musicians, because they SHOULD be LEADING us in praise & worship of God, and the focus should always be on God and not on the musicians, who are music MINISTERS and not PERFORMERS.

I’m sorry to have to disagree with many (if not all) of you. I disagree with Pat and I’m noticing a lack of diversity in the comments: so I’d like to say that my family and I very much enjoy the sincere community we find after Mass. Yes, it is God’s house - God who loves you and sent His only Son to die on the cross and rise from the dead so that you can live forever with Him in heaven.

He welcomed the (noisy) children with open arms when the disciples tried to send them away.

There is a lot of accusing and division on these comments. Let’s be careful not to judge one another too harshly.

Thank you, thank you.  Bring our Lord and King out of exile and place His Throne in the center of the nave and He will heal us.

@David—I love babies and children and I certainly do not fault THEM for being noisy—they are just being children.  But it is their parents’ obligation to rein them in, quiet them down, and teach them reverence in God’s house and respect for the rights of others.  Of course Jesus welcomed the children!  They have such innocence and ability to accept His teachings without question—that’s faith!  But notice the many times in the Bible that Jesus did correct adults’ poor behavior.  Our expecting parents to teach their children good manners and respect for others during Mass is not contrary to loving and welcoming children.

Why do we expect a better standard of behavior out of people in a movie theater than we do out of the congregation at Mass?  I can guarantee that if the audience were as loud during a movie as the congregation is during Mass, the theater ushers would be asking people to be quiet and/or leave.

I note that you say you enjoy the “sincere community we find after Mass.”  May I point out that a key word in what you’ve stated is “after”?  I don’t think anyone here with whom you claim to disagree contests that there is genuine community among members of our parishes, but the time and place for sharing the love and friendship with fellow parishioners is outside the Mass—and, because many people want to spend quiet time with the Lord before and/or after Mass, it’s only common courtesy to take that fellowship of community apart from those who are praying. 

Pointing out problems in behavior is not judging.  Jesus instructed us to correct our brothers and sisters, and even gave the procedure for doing so.  Matthew 18:15-17 (NAB)

I do appreciate that you posted an opposing point of view.  I wish you’d explained, though, why you think we’re off-track to expect people (adults) to be quiet during Mass except when they’re praying or singing.

I couldn’t help but think of this article and subsequent comments this morning at church.  I went to a different Mass than our “family” Mass, although it was late enough in the morning that there were many families with children there.  Ironically, throughout the Mass, the children were much quieter than several sets of adults around me.  I wonder what ever became of “church voices”?  Does anyone remember his/her mother or grandmother saying, “Use your church voice,” which was supposed to be a whisper? (I’m grinning as I write this.)

That’s all I’m asking for—respect for the rights of those of us who’d like to be able to concentrate on praying for at least 15 minutes before Mass, during Mass, and a couple to 5 minutes after Mass.  If that’s an unreasonable request, then I am extremely saddened by how far manners have disintegrated.

@Nora—oh you brought up another thing—cameras in Mass.  Yupp!  One more action that shows the “it’s about me” mentality.  Personally, I think it severely takes away from the sanctity of the Mass and of the sacrament being celebrated, whether it’s Baptism, First Communion or Confirmation.  I have no photographs of myself receiving those sacraments but I remember the latter two as if they took place yesterday instead of 45 years ago.  I refused to allow a photographer to take photos during my wedding, but I understand that some people might want one photographer—a professional photographer can be discreet and not need to use flash—but a hundred flashes of light throughout the ceremony is distracting.

Back to “community,” though.  I was discussing this with a member of our parish who feels as I do about the noise and how to train children to be valuable members of the Church.  She noted that we should not downplay the importance of community, however, because that is part of why we worship together; otherwise, why not just stay home and pray to God alone.  Of course, part of the answer to that is that we don’t get Holy Eucharist alone at home.  But that is part of community, too—we come together as the Body of Christ to worship God and receive Holy Eucharist at the sacrifice of the Mass.

I agreed with her, but noted that there are various modes of proper behavior for the community depending upon how we’re coming together.  We can be loud and enthusiastic at the summer ice cream social and at CYO ballgames.  We can enjoy each other’s company and converse at a volume to be heard by everyone at our pancake breakfast and fish fry dinners.  But at the Mass, including the time preceding and time few minutes immediately following, we should be quiet and respectful, not only of it being God’s house, but also of our fellow parishioners desiring to pray.  She agreed.

This topic has been generating a lively debate on my facebook wall.  One mother, who has 5 children, 3 still in diapers, and a 6th due soon, suggested that all of us who dislike noise go to the very early Mass where it’s quiet.  Of course, that may be an option, but I think it begs the true question.  I know she has trouble getting all of her children to remain still and quiet for an hour, and my husband & I have often sat with her family to help by passing babies and toddlers back and forth.

It’s truly not a matter that will be solved overnight, but perhaps loving conversation with our priests and fellow parishioners can help strike a balance.

Sometimes the worst offenders are the lay ministers.  At our church, we sit in the back, because we have small children and you never know when you’ll need to slip out to the bathroom, or to take a crying baby out.  The ushers seem to think that pre-Mass time is their chance to chat—loudly—right behind the back pews, never mind if there are parishioners in those pews attempting to pray silently before Mass.  I really don’t need to hear people catch up and chat about friends’ surgeries or vacations while waiting for Mass to begin.  And this is usually just five minutes before Mass begins—again, we have small children and are blessed to get there that early.

Memo to all ushers and lay ministers—please set an example to the parishioners and everyone else, be reverent in the sanctuary.

@ Mike in KC:  I’m a former Episcopalian, and I can tell you that I was raised to be absolutely reverent in church.  I can also tell you that the hymnal that I grew up with had beautiful, traditional, and eloquent music that I miss greatly, even today!  I am tired of singing a song out of the Catholic psalter whose lyrics have been altered to be politically correct!!  I am tired of singing hymns formulated in the ‘70’s that talk more about social justice and less of sin, sacrifice, and redemption!!

Last Sunday a large baptismal party arrived at about 1:30 for the 1 PM Mass, the toddler to be baptized glittered up like a Disney princess.  The men wore many large tattoos, long greasy pony-tails, and t-shirts.  They lounged in poses, arms over the back of the pew, except when snickering over cell phone messages or games.  One woman walked out to the toilet at the Consecration.  All but one ignored the collection basket too; he went to the toilet!

The 15 or so people were ALL sitting in front of me, and very noisy, so I couldn’t shut them out as I usually do.  And I really don’t want to always shut out other people in order to just focus on Mass.  It takes away from the communal prayer.

It’s impossible to establish a church community when many people in the church behave as if they are in a local bar, talking LOUDLY to each other and on cell phones, “hanging out.”  I don’t expect complete silence or perfect manners, but the 60s idiocy of “the church is your living room” is too much!  Do children always fight, scream, kick, and eat non-stop in the home?  Do adults always answer phones, grope each other (the Sign of Peace is beautiful, but not as foreplay!), dance around, and drop their trash on the floor at home?  Not in my home!

Silence is given and desired by those who truly believe that Jesus Christ is present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist…whichever form.  I have often wondered that when each of us arrives in heaven (assuming…hoping…we all will), and we happen to arrive chatting with a friend…would we continue to chat in the Presence of Christ or would we bow in reverence and awe and be silent waiting for Him to speak…or would we continue chatting with our friend or neighbor?  When the congregation arrives for Mass, reverence is missing because faith…belief is missing…  Oh Lord, I believe please help my unbelief.

“My house is a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves.”  We attend a Catholic Student Chapel at a large university—over 2000 students attend Mass there every Sunday—and it is respectfully quiet before Mass.  If college students can do it, everyone can do it.

One thing we did at my former parish-which I plan on doing when I become a pastor-is 15 minuets before Mass the Rosary is prayed.  This doesn’t hush people up but it does stop the frivilous talking and gets them focused before Mass. Just an option.

Last night Dr. Scott Hahn was on EWTN talking about how the Mass we witness is merely a through-the-veil, dumbed-down, mundane, simultaneous, co-enactment with the real Mass being held in the throne room above as amazingly described in Revelation.

People forget what we are witnessing and where we are when we enter into a church for a Mass.  We chatter like foolish monkeys and totally shame ourselves.

Mankind, wake up!  WAKE UP!

Reminded me of a link provided by Fr. Powell in a recent coffee cup browsing, mainly an Old Wise Saying that went something like this:

“Never miss a good chance to shut up.”

I can be very tolerant of trends, etc. However, I have actually been tapped on the shoulder while I’m kneeling in the pew after Mass, by someone who just had to talk to me for a second or just had to ask me something ‘real quick’. Really? It couldn’t wait A MINUTE OR TWO? And then there are the ones who stand at the end of the pew ‘waiting patiently’. Geez!

The gathering space is for visiting, not the Sanctuary. I am regularly challenged by all of the folks who feel that the Sanctuary is the appropriate place to visit (even with their own family members). It is disrespectful to those of us who are trying to prepare for Mass and disrespectful to the sacredness of the space.

I wonder if wearing noise cancelling headphones would send a message to those around.

My husband and I appreciate our quiet parish. Music is sometimes played a few minutes before Mass but it’s always soft and pleasant, no singing, just the piano. Now and then someone will be noisy and if it continues, it doesn’t continue for long. We have an adorable priest that deals with Church issues so well. He’ll walk straight over and say something quietly to them in his sweet voice, no one else can hear what he’s saying, and then later, you could hear a pin drop! He corrects so lovingly and can talk just about anyone into anything. We have visited other Churches with noise levels that ...well, there’s just no way you can focus by trying to ignore it. I’ve often wondered, if I were wearing headphones to drown it all out, what effect it would have. Would it make a point and speak to someone or encourage people to just yack even more?

We left a parish 14 years ago where “community” gathering in the body of the church was a greet and meet and catch up on “life”.Forget about praying.Now we drive 5 miles to go to “our” church where we respect the Holy Eucharist present in the tabernacle and conversations are only in the nartex of the church or outside. “Be still and know that I am God”.I am so grateful to belong to this parish, may others respect where we are and who we have come to adore.

The farm parish where I am from had no “gathering space”.  You went straight in from outside. The priest stood outside except in a blizzard to greet everybody at the door.  Yet everybody gathered outside to do all their chatting, or hailed somebody to meet at one or the other of the local restaurants.

I’m in a big parish now and our music director practices with the choir prior to Mass, and quietly “tickles the ivories” a little during reception of the Holy Eucharist to cover up the tromp shuffle tromp, and clippity clop of high heels on the stone floors.

We also send the littlest children to “children’s readings” in the “gathering hall” behind the “gathering space” during the Readings and the sermon. But just before Communion during the passing of the basket,  the children all come running into church to throw their pennies in the Kid’s Well in front of the altar, and the poor Ushers have to watch out because the kids duck n dodge and trip them up. BUT this is a whole lot better than the theatre in the round church 2 blocks from us.  It has a full rock band down on the stage jsut behind the altar area.  The tiered seating makes it impossible for handicapped folks to go to get Holy Eucharist directly form the priest.  my first time there the teenagers pulled the chairs ( no kneelers)  into semi-circles and one mother had stopped at McDonalds to get her child a Happy Meal which the child happily and noisily chopped away on during Mass. 

And one girl was dressed so immodestly that I and every male, including my husband,  around me could see down the back of her pants. With every breath she took her dimples-n-more played peekaboo. I heard people 2 tiers above gossiping about somebody across the circular “worship space”  and discussing where they were gong for breakfast after church.  The girl-half-in-pants had also been chewing her cud, she took a big wad of gum out of her mouth before heading up to receive the Holy Eucharist and gulp the Blood of Christ, and then afterwards, put another 2 sticks into her mouth. And the peep show continued.  My brand new husband was spending a lot of time staring at the ceiling that looked like the inside of a barn with its exposed beams and metal plates.
 
I spent most of the Mass asking God to let me think charitably of these people but what did me in was the open lust on one young man’s face next to me as he watched the girl’s backside.  I was in tears by the end of Mass and asked my husband if there was another church where I could go.  A mile away is another church, and so now we go there. 

I once attended a religious speech to be given at that first church and a man was wandering around in sandals and a long linen robe like we typically see Jesus portrayed wearing.  I thought maybe was going to be a miniplay or enactment or something, but , they said that was the pastor and he always wanders around like that.  I guess I am used to priests in black clothing or robe wearing a roman collar.

I am TIRED of having to shop around for a parish where the priests behave like priests instead of hippies lost from the 60’s, self-expressing.

This is encouraging. I am 18, I was raised Anglican, and the whole talking thing does not make sense in church. The mindset that seeing your friends once per week is why you go to mass confuses me. I am encouraged that we have a Traditional Latin Mass parish within driving distance (30 miles), but my family rarely goes, as mom is not fond of cars anymore.
I will say something about music vs. silence, as growing up Anglican (Traditional Anglican-Catholic, think Oxford Movement) has lent me a love for music in the liturgy. I (personally) find anything besides organ music suspect, and I haven’t found music written after the turn of the century to be very suitable under any circumstance. As for noise, the organists at the parishes I served at (a common practice) would play music quietly and reverently at any time there was something happening. For instance, after Communion, the organist will play something (written specifically for this time, by the way) until the altar has been cleaned, and the priest and acolytes are still. once that happens, there was usually anywhere from 5-15 minutes of silence, before the Post-Communion prayer, which also I find lacking in the Catholic Church I now attend. The offertory as well, traditionally has a censing of the Altar, Gifts and people. This is not a quiet task. There is also a censing at the Gospel Procession (also lacking here). There are five places for hymns (There is also a difference between “hymns” and “songs”) in the liturgy, and if used properly, there is a delicate and powerful balance between Music, Prayer, and Silence.
And I have been in Anglican churches where you would be escorted out of the nave for talking. Even the Prayers of the People have only half their forms organized into a verse/response pattern.
I hope for a return to Tradition, but I see nothing that would lead me to believe such a thing is forthcoming.
Peace be with this gathering.

We are fortunate that, in our current parish, our pastor understands the necessity of sacred silence.  That doesn’t mean that we can’t acknowledge people around us.  It is to be expected that if you are there at the same Mass every week, you will get to know others, at least by sight.  There’s nothing wrong with saying, “Hi,” or giving a nod of acknowlegement.  People are generally quiet, and it is very easy to pray silently or pray a rosary before Mass.  After Mass, people are a bit loud, but we do have fellowship in the hall afterwards, and if the talking persists in the Church for more than 5 min, our pastor will usher you out.

Our local parish (that we could walk to) has been a different story for many years.  A few months ago, they got a new pastor.  The first thing he did was put the tabernacle back in the main sanctuary.  He also lectured the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion that the sanctuary is sacred space.  He belongs there; they do not.  No one but he may open the tabernacle.  They are to receive communion from him, not take it themselves.  It was quite refreshing to go there recently for a daily Mass.  What a difference!

And thus far above is only one dissenter….David our brother, how can we change your mind?      How about with the word INDIFFERENCE?
INDIFFERENCE is what we give to Jesus in the tabernacle upon arrival to church. He waited to see us all week,with open arms on the cross He welcomes us, and we ignore Him, and His look of love for us.
As Baba posted above, His house is a house of prayer. Why else do we go there?
We know that our minds guard our hearts, and if we turn our minds to Jesus, our hearts soon follow.
  To be silent because others are praying is a 2nd reason. The 1st is to be in silent prayer to Jesus in His own house and His holy physical presence, and not be guilty of giving Him INDIFFERENCE!

While I am not one to visit before the mass I do visit with those around me after the mass especially if I do not know them.  I really couldn’t say if there is much noise before the mass as I don’t pay that much attention to it as I know why I am there.  To worship the God who is so good to me.  I try to set the good example by acting in a proper manner and being involved with His community.  I do come in at times and there is a rosary being said before mass, is that to considered noise as it is louder than any talking that may be taking place?  I look at quiet parishes as ones that are not interested in people especially strangers.  While traveling I have visited churches and no one even took the time to acknowledge my visit.  I think that is a greater shame.

Amen! there is a time and place for everything. Please be reverent in the church, the house of refuge for so many who want to escape the noisy world. Respect God and be considerate of those who are trying to quiet their minds and prepare for the greatest banquet this side of heaven.

Meet and greet before and after mass in the appropriate place reserved for that.

This stuff really bugs me.  After daily mass the older people start acting like its time to ask whats for breakfast it gets really loud. & people are kneeling yet it doesn’t matter.  I had one lady interupt the priest while he was blessing water for me. She didn’t say sorry nor cared but was upset father didn’t notice her. After mass on Sundays its worse.  Father did mention it & it was less of a roar but when the organ is going they must talk over the organ & again people knelt in prayer.  I’ve felt it is tougher to pray in Church anymore than anywhere else I can think of. Kinda reminds me that stat of how many Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence anymore.  Its sad.  I remember it used to be frowned on to talk before, during or after.  Now its done daily & in line for communion.

yes…silence and noise has its proper place…the main focus of the liturgy is the Lord so it requires full attention… in our church we even turn off the lights during the second part which is the Lords table and theres only one light lit focus mainly on the table or the altar to emphasize its importance

In case I wasn’t clear enough above, we should be aware of Jesus’ presence the moment we enter His house. These posts above refer to His house being a house of prayer, not a meeting hall. This is why Jesus is removed from the tabernacle and the sacristy lamp is extinguished if the church is to be used for a purpose such as a children’s play, and Jesus would not be the central focus of events.
  And yes, I know all about treating Jesus with INDIFFERENCE, having been guilty of that shameful crime myself.

To avoid the problem as much as possible, the choir I’m in sings a warm-up before Mass, as people are beginning to, uh, “gather”; it’s usually something like “Dona Nobis Pacem” or some other short round. THen, most Sundays, we sing an anthem. This last Sunday it was “We Will Praise the Lord.” We’re pretty good, and the people calm down to listen. The procession immediately follows, so it works quite well. Our parish has two beautiful churches, one pastor, and the choir takes turns between churches. Both have a wonderful pipe organ, and a locally famous organist, so he plays a great, loud anthem after Mass. The second church in our parish also recites the rosary right before our warm-up round. Altogether, it’s okay, although a little silence would be so, so nice.

I have to say I always go to Mass on Sundays early so I can talk to the Lord in his house and say my rosary before Mass. It is hard to keep focused on my prayers when you have people sitting in Church having their morning social meeting. I realize I am older but I was always taught that you showed respect and love to the Lord in his house.  God Bless

megan4life, yes, please, add some silence back into the mass.  My six children, now almost grown, all complained they couldn’t concentrate on praying after communion, because of the music.  Sometimes it was only instrumental music, quiet - but usually sung.  I can’t concentrate on my prayers either, if there is music at the same time.  I CRAVE silence during the mass.

Now that my kids are in their late teens and twenties, they don’t tell me if they are praying or not, and by and large are used to the liturgies they get, which includes music during every single moment of the mass.  We are not TLM but wish for silence.

This is largely ignored, even by so-called “Traditionalists”.  In fact, after the Tridentine Mass in St. Paul, MN it is often seen that the family members who publish “the Remnant” newspaper just blab and flap their gums loudly before and after the Mass.  They just can’t seem to shut their pieholes.

Pat..Thanks be to God! We have six children and they know once they step infront of the church..they are to be silence and be reverence when they entered. I have always noticed the disrespectful in some of the Catholic churches when people enters. We started praying the Rosary before Mass for the deploying soldiers and their families and for Peace in the world. We felt like it will also help keeps the people quiet but instead of talking & chatting with each other, they can join in praying our Mother’s prayer. It helped so much and every new priests that comes to this place continue on with Mother Mary’s Rosary before Mass. The good thing about it too, we had younger priests serving different years and they were always on top of everything in Mass…the noise, the prayers,the dress code, the respectful, reverence.. you’ll name it. they’ll tell you as it is! Its God’s house not a chatroom, not a bar and definitely not a beach, where some comes in like they are going for a swim, and this happens a lot during spring/summer.
  We moved a year ago and our chpael is a little-bit smaller compare to where we use to go in another state. I don’t see that here. Maybe I don’t see it b/c my family sits up-front where the kids can focus, reflects & pray and not to worry whats happening behind us. We taught our kids not to worry alot about what the other is doing in church, but to completely focus on yourself and the reason why you are here. Once you enter the church..this is your time ‘individually’ with Him. But when the noise is out of control, we can’t stay focus, we can’t concentrate enough, not even meditating to the Most Blessed Sacrament. It hasn’t happen yet in my little Parish here..only babies cries every once in a while, but they are not the problem. The problem is..adults..children with no respect and no disciplinary at all. But how are the kids going to STOP when the Parents are doing it too?
  Just this past Sunday, I was at the door with other Eucharistic Minister praying and a couple walked in with coffee in their hands. I didn’t stop the prayer but I stop the couple and told them.. they are not allow to bring food/drinks in Church. He look upset and ask me ‘where should I put them?’ I found a place for it, which it was the Parish co-ordinator’s office. Okay, the thing is.. I don’t care what rank you are but in ANY-CHURCH, we are not allow to carry drinks or food in it. I could just tell from then on, these people probably has NEVER been in a Church. Lets keep praying about this and hope we can always have a Peaceful moment with our Lord in our churhces.

One church I went to had their social room next to the chapel. When we entered the noise was like a very large party. We went through this to the chapel doors and they had a very large sign on the doors “Quiet, People Praying”. Went inside and it was more quiet but the noise from the social room was really coming through.

Someone was trying to change things with the sign.

oh my goodness , our catholic church should be a place to give GOD our thanks and praise and not a community hall its time to shut up and be QUITE in your church , enough with the greetings you go and have coffee in another building , ask someone how they are at another time and place PLEASE PLEASE i hope the LORD is not upset with us all , i am so upset with noise , after mass the the rosary was been said and a group of ladies loudly were haveing a chat , this was a weekday mass and honestly it upset me come on pastors stop the noise GOD BLESS you all

i hope we have a big change to come and noise is no more in our church , you see i was in a very dark place for a long time and GOD saved me so when i am in church i give HIM thanks and praise for my life today , i dont have worldly stuff just pease and from what it was like that is enough thanks be to GOD

@Fr. JP - We pray the Rosary before each Mass the first Sunday every month.  But our pastor has asked that we begin it 30 minutes before Mass starts.  I didn’t question his authority, but the problem I saw with that is that the majority of our congregation walks in 3 minutes before Mass begins.  At 30 minutes before the start of Mass, almost no one is present and our praying the Rosary hasn’t drawn in large crowds earlier, either.  So, okay. . . I tend to delay the start of the Rosary by 5 minutes, I pray it slowly (I don’t think I’m ‘passive-aggressive’!), and I use some very beautiful mystery meditations.  I can make that Rosary last right up until the 5-before bells ring.

My point?  Praying the Rosary before Mass does keep the congregation quieter!  Now, if we could just find enough people to lead so that we could have a Rosary before every Mass every weekend.  ;-)

It is not the young people in our parishes, it’s the OLD people who come in talking, talk during Mass, stop each other in the aisle on the way back from Communion, wait for the priest to genuflect after Mass and then immediately start up again.
  I’m not making this up. Our associate pastor left his seat on the altar after Communion, walked back over to the podium & said to some older women who always sit in front: “When i make my meditation after Communion, I don’t expect to hear your voices!” That’s how bad it is.
  Don’t tell me to write our bishop. He’s not going to be bothered.

Kim in KC, while I pray the rosary myself, when I come to church for Mass, I’d like to be able to focus on my own prayers.  If the rosary is being prayed out loud, I am not able to do so.

Quiet is hard to do!

It grieves me how we treat the Sacred Presence.Sadly, we have lost all respect. It’s like a cinema before & after Mass.I do blame the Priest in charge.In one church I visit, occassionally, if someone is talking the Priest will approach the culprit & put his finger to his lips…Good Leadership & he is a role model.I try to ignore the noise & sit quietly in God’s Presence & ask the Lord to touch them….even if they do think I’m just ‘odd.

@Amy R—Interesting comment.  I understand that you would have trouble praying something of your own if the congregation is praying the Rosary.  On the other hand, I can’t help but wonder why you don’t just join in with the Rosary, adding your own prayer intentions.

Wow, great article that “hits the nail on the head”!  Just experienced the noise this morning because of Ash Wednesday and a big crowd at Mass.  The comments cover it all, such as the one that bemoans our being told to introduce ourselves before Mass. Yuk!  That must have started at some diocesan “liturgical instruction”.

@Kim - If I wanted and planned to pray the rosary, I would be glad to join in.  If I want some quiet to gather my thoughts before Mass begins, well then, I just want it quiet.  I have trouble concentrating I guess.  Like, at another church I attend sometimes - people will be praying a group rosary pretty loudly while I’m in line for confession.  There’s no way I can concentrate on my coming confession or prayers afterwards.

@Sandy - The talented voice of the music director sang and sang through Ash Wednesday’s noon Mass, including during and after communion.  I absolutely could not think what to pray.  One of her song choices was even about Silence….sung when there really should have BEEN silence!

And to top it all off, there was vigorous clapping by some, after Mass was over.  Yes.  On Ash Wednesday.

I was thrilled to read this article and to know that there is at least one bishop that cares enough about our Lord to do his job and teach his priests and his people about how we must act in church and before our Lord’s Eucharistic Presence!  I wish more would have the guts to do so!  I am currently looking for a catholic church that has quiet and reverent Masses on Sunday.  I would love to know the name of your church!  Thank you!

In a public message in the 90’s from Medjugorje Our Lady said that the Church is God’s palace, the place where he dwells day and night!

Early on in Medjugorje (1986) she had said that if the average Catholic would take a little longer before receiving Holy Communion preparing their hearts….and then spend a little longer afterwards thanking Jesus, talking to him (instead of just receiving out of habit – and Our Lady would prefer us on our knees) “they would experience many more miracles in their lives and there would be less sickness among them!”

In the Church where I attend daily Mass, there is Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament after the noon Mass…yet people gather in groups to chat loudly, some even standing near the altar with their backs to the Blessed Eucharist.  Some of these are ushers or those who serve on the altar.  This is really sad because some people come to noon Mass and only have a few minutes after Mass for silent prayer before returning to work. I think a good solution to all this is for the Priest celebrating Mass to just speak a few words about the fact that people are there to commune with Christ, living and present in the Eucharist and to ask those who wish to chat to leave the Church and go outside.  A lot of people don’t seem to understand the significance or sacredness of the Presence on our altars of the living God…they just need to be taught, or reminded if they already know.  Same thing with scanty dress in the warm months…women even on the altar with mini skirts and tank tops and bulging naked breasts…a simple talk before the warm months begin to remind people to dress respectfully, as they would if they had an appointment/meeting with a King or President…if this is done well, firmly but respectfully, I believe people would respond well.