So, what lever on earth do laypeople have to get bishops to do the right thing?  What could they possibly need or want from us that might induce them?  In what way are the princes of the Church dependent on their lowly flock?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

When prayers, pleadings, inspired rhetoric and philosophical argument fail, (as they have) this is the only thing left.  Are we willing to withhold it in the name of what is truly right and just, and force them to bow to their own doctrine and laws?

Starve the weak and unfaithful bishops.  Bestow your hard-earned money on the men worthy of the name Bishop.

I do not particularly disagree with you, but I do not believe it will be effective. Barring pro-abort or pro-SSM pols from the sacraments is a penalty that is long overdue, but its primary worth would be as an affirmation of the faithful that the church takes them and the sacraments seriously. I am unaware of a canonical penalty actually changing a pols behavior. For too many, power is their god and the church is just a club they sometimes find it useful to be a member of.

Amen.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym6Qgj55e3Y

Pat, I’m afraid that while I firmly agree with your suggestion for bishops to get serious, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.  They could hardly get serious when it came time to correct liturgical translations.

It takes years for the USCCB to come together as a whole to make firm decisions; politics won’t wait for bishops to get serious.  Preventing scandal from catholyc politicians will not change for several more generations.

Two New York state legislators—both Catholic and voting the right way on “gay” “marriage” told me in separate conversations last night that the Church’s lobbying efforts were a joke.  I already knew that from attempting to communicate with the bogus “Catholic Action Network” well prior to the vote.  The bishops let us down with their failed leadership.

I’ve always felt that Fr. Fessio pretty much ‘nailed’ it back in 2002 when it came to explaining why we had (and still have) such weak and ‘ineffective CEO-type’ bishops in the Church.  <b.Hopefully, that approach is now changing.</b>

Fessio explained, “Because Humanae Vitae was so counter to our culture, Pope Paul VI wanted Bishops who were reconcilers and for the Bishops to be healers. That’s a good thing. But the negative side was that he did not want Bishops who were controversial or divisive. In this period of the Church’s history where there was a crisis of Catholic truth, Bishops were appointed who had never really stood up to defend Catholic truth. These Bishops were good, friendly and perhaps even holy people. But it was a time when we needed prophets and we got managers. Unfortunately, that approach continues today.”

You can read the entire article here.

Confusion in the pews aided by the indifferent stance of Bishops - there is no teaching, if one is not willing to follow through and put action behind words. There is no value placed on the principal. The lesson is “there is no loss of ‘Catholic identity’ if you reject what the Church teaches, even publicly and with arrogant glee”.  Communion then has no value, as it requires nothing, not even being in a communion of belief.

Politicians are well schooled in bullying - and are using the timidity of the Bishops to buttress their own policies in opposition to the Church. They - the politicians - are the ones teaching the Catholics in the pews how to be a modern Catholic, how to do whatever you will with your life and politics, and keep faith in a box for Sunday.

Bullies aren’t changed with appeasement and more hugs. They steamroll right over it, and they’re taking folks in the pews with them.

Just two words: “Canon 915”

Alas, I must agree with David.  Any penalty imposed on a politician would be used as a badge of honor.

While I understand David concerns and I am sure he is correct that some will use it as a political opportunity (these are are spineless politicians after all) and it might be used to persecute the church.  So be it. We do not serve those who bring scandal and deceit.  We serve the one who is the truth, the life, and the way.  If we see the lie we must have the courage to say so and act accordingly.  We don’t belong to a country club or civic organization where getting along means playing politics with those in power.  We belong to the Catholic Church and it is not a political organization.  Our Lord never shrank from telling those who would listen that the Pharisees (their leaders) were leading their people to Hell.  I don’t see, even with our imperfect powers of perception, how we can do any less.  Being Catholic should mean something and that something can not be timid.

The next step should be to advise Mr. Cuomo that he has openly defied the teachings of the Church. Assuming he does not want to recant his decision to support and sign into law gay “marriage” rights, Mr. Cuomo should be told that he is not permitted to receive the Holy Eucharist. Does anyone have the guts to do this;his pastor, the Archbishop of New York?  Enough is enough.

I agree that the bishops need to show publicly that the Church’s teaching is taken seriously—by them if not by politicians.  We should also mention that Catholic voters themselves need to vote accordingly.  Many of the pols in states like New York are Catholic, but so are the voters, but it is the voters who have the final call.  The laity need to get serious, too.

That is, “and it is the voters who have the final call.”

Don’t rank and file Catholics who vote these politicians into office have any blame here? Why is it the Bishop’s responsibility to try and clean up the mess Catholic voters have made?

There are homosexuals within our priesthood who do not want homosexuality to be a sin any longer and they have convinced many other good priests that it would be compassionate to overlook it or loose the sin.  They appear to be blinded to the consequences and victims of the sin and the destruction of the sin and the bad fruit of the sin.  They seem to be seeing everything in such a temporal, short-sighted perspective. They are caught in sin or gravely tempted and are denying the power of grace or worse, not even seeking it.  Some Bishops are saying the right things according to Catholic teaching and then actively working to undermine them.  So are some pastors and priests.  The flesh and the spirit are in battle and I agree with Pat that the true teaching of the faith needs to be upheld.  Why is it so hard to remember how greatly God blesses us spiritually when we choose Him over the flesh?  How many times has He condemned Israel for mixing their beliefs with the beliefs of false gods and how many times has He blessed Israel for its leaders faithfulness?  Being faithful to the teaching of the Church, to the letters of Paul and Peter and James which condemn this sin in very clear and strong terms, is the right course of action, I believe. We have seen the destructive force of this sin over and over again in our lives.  I pray our Church takes the narrow road and upholds the true teaching.

Yeah, so why is Bishop Gracida retired while the current bishop of Corpus Christi is the one who just insisted Fr. Corapi be silenced?  Let’s hear some bishops wielding power in the church say anything to “Catholic” politicians.  They won’t because these same politicians are the ones running the democrat “social” welfare programs that fund Catholic (higher) education, Catholic hospitals and Catholic Charities. 

“About 75% of the Catholic Charities’ budget comes from the many contracts that they have with the city.”

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hommarrdc5.htm

I referred an unwed mother to St Anns Infant home in DC and was told they were filled up for the year and not to refer any more people directly to them.  Only people w/money from social services need come to the Catholic Church.  St Anns sends out fundraising letters thanking the state of Maryland for all the money the state (aka Gov ogay oaboration omalley has given them). 

A friend had a brother who was in trouble w/alcoholism and needed health care and was told to go to state social services, then come w/pay check to Catholic church, but only if social services approves you first. If you check out DC Catholic charities site, you will find everything except LEGAL services is means tested, i.e. predicated on federal or state government payment/reimbursement.

No-one can serve two masters, it’s either money or God.

The other problem is that these priests have talked to the politicians who ARE doing the will of the Catholic Church in passing gay marriage against the will of the people. All priests are now either homosexuals, tolerant of homosexuals or liars (to get ordained)—in a state of sin, tolerant (willing to ignore) of sin, or willing to sin to get what they want. It was the Catholic church that associated “dignity” and “courage” with homosexuality. I can’t tell you how many people have told me oh of course he’s gay but he’s a good priest—or I knew he was gay but I figured he was chaste.  I knew he was a drug addict, but I figured he wasn’t using.  I knew he was an alcoholic but I figured he wasn’t drinking. I knew he was a murderer, but I figured he wasn’t murdering. Unless that person told you, the only way you would know what they were is if there was evidence. These priests are openly gay, except for having their boyfriends in tow. This breeds tolerance of homosexuality because the laity’s role model for homosexuality becomes the priest and/or bishop whom they have been trained to think of as good. Meanwhile the statistics on priests infected and dead of AIDS/syphillis, who have abused seminarians, priests and children, arrested for prostitution/sodomy offenses and/or are addicted to pornography is hidden from everyone—as well as the amount of money that was to go to the poor which has been spent on blackmail, legal fees, court settlements, and paying for bishops’ and priests’ boyfriends (and these could be their favorite supposed “priest”).

We are reaping what has been going on since the 30s and 40s w/at least Spellman. In DC for instance in the seventies, Cardinal Baum was transferred to Rome after this sentence appeared in a gossip column:

“Cardinal Baum of Washington DC appeared today at such-and-such a poor black parish in his eight-foot train, accompanied by Monsignor so-and-so the perennial bridesmaid.”

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?mode=printpost&post=31815

While Baum was archbishop of DC his vocations director was Fr George Stallings:

“After his days sorting mail at a D.C. law firm, 22-year-old Derek Edwin Brown liked to go dancing in gay clubs. His favorite was Tracks DC, near the Washington Navy Yard. There, one night in April 1987, he met an older man.

“We talked for a while and exchanged numbers,” Brown said. “I didn’t know anything about him—just a guy named George.”

The guy named George was a Roman Catholic priest, the Rev. George Augustus Stallings Jr.

Brown, now 25, said he and Stallings, 42, were lovers for the next two years, during which time he lived in Augustus Manor, the priest’s house in Anacostia. For nine months of that time, Stallings employed Brown as a pastoral assistant at St. Teresa of Avila parish. Brown and other employees said that much of the time he was out of the parish on trips with Stallings.

Brown and Stallings were consenting adults, but Stallings was sworn to celibacy in a church that considers homosexual activity a sin. Brown said Stallings knew parishioners were whispering about their relationship. “It bothered him, but all people could do was insinuate,” Brown said. “He didn’t think it would catch up with him.”

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news3/1990_04_30_Stepp_ConcernsAbout_George_A_Stallings_4.htm

“In the mid-seventies, under Cardinal Baum, Stallings had been a vocational director, recruiting young men for the seminary.”

http://www.leepenn.org/FalseDawn_np.pdf
See note 4, page 122

Every age has its heresies.  In the C7th it was monophytism – that Christ had one nature – Divine . That denied the hypostatic union that Christ is both truly am and truly God.  Monophytism thus undermined the theology of redemption.  A pope at the time ( Honorius I)  although a good man did not face up to this heresy.  Forty years after his death monophytism was vanquished by Pope Saint Agatho (reigned 678-681). 

Today the heresies are a liberalism that in effect tries to define God in other than his own making and of his creation.  A corollary of that is gay “marriage”. 

Christ clearly stated in Matthew 19:4 what should be the obvious truth to all.

He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female”

Recently as some may have read (web site listed below), there was published the Papal oath written by Pope Saint Agatho in the C7th .  The words remind us of the responsibility of tradition.  The oath should be a daily reminder of the blessings that Christ and the Church has bestowed on us.

Papal Oath
I vow to change nothing of the received Tradition, and nothing thereof I have found before me guarded by my God-pleasing predecessors, to encroach upon, to alter, or to permit any innovation therein;

To the contrary: with glowing affection as her truly faithful student and successor, to safeguard reverently the passed-on good, with my whole strength and utmost effort;

To cleanse all that is in contradiction to the canonical order, should such appear;

To guard the Holy Canons and Decrees of our Popes as if they were the Divine ordinances of Heaven, because I am conscious of Thee, whose place I take through the Grace of God, whose Vicarship I possess with Thy support, being subject to the severest accounting before Thy Divine Tribunal over all that I shall confess;

I swear to God Almighty and the Saviour Jesus Christ that I will keep whatever has been revealed through Christ and His Successors and whatever the first councils and my predecessors have defined and declared.

I will keep without sacrifice to itself the discipline and the rite of the Church. I will put outside the Church whoever dares to go against this oath, may it be somebody else or I.

If I should undertake to act in anything of contrary sense, or should permit that it will be executed, Thou willst not be merciful to me on the dreadful Day of Divine Justice.

Accordingly, without exclusion, We subject to severest excommunication anyone—be it ourselves or be it another—who would dare to undertake anything new in contradiction to this constituted evangelic Tradition and the purity of the Orthodox Faith and the Christian Religion, or would seek to change anything by his opposing efforts, or would agree with those who undertake such a blasphemous venture.

Source: Liber Diurnus Romanorum Pontificum (Patrologia Latina 1005, S. 54)

http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2011/06/papal-oath-of-greek-pope-saint.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+taylormarshall+(Canterbury+Tales+by+Taylor+Marshall)

I would personally like to see Canons 915 and 916 enforced against “Catholic” politicians who only care for the name inasmuch as it helps them. I agree that it probably won’t get them to come back (which is incredibly sad, since these are not punishments, but cures), but Jesus Himself said that he would spit the lukewarm out of His mouth. I agree that the bishops need to get serious about this, but in the meantime we’re not powerless. We can vote against “Catholic” politicians and write to the bishops to let them know that we want to see them stand up and fight the pols’ abuse of the Eucharist. And, of course, we can pray for them all.

Not using God given authority is the abuse of authority.  As much as I admire the demand that Catholic politicians be disciplined, how well does it go when Catholic institutions remain without discipline.  It should not be the governments role to question whether this or that college, university, hospital is Catholic enough, it is the role of the Bishop.  Where were the Catholic politicians, media personalities and the rest educated at?  We are told by the Bishops that to educate children in the Catholic schools is a faithful endeavor, save one.  I recall hearing that Archbishop Sheen stated that he told family and friends that if you want your children to lose their faith, send them to Catholic school.  If you want your children to defend their faith, send them to public school.  Really, where were these politicians educated?

Completely agree that the Bishops need to do more.  The approach they take, however, ought to stress that by going against what the Church teaches on issues such as same-sex “marriage” and abortion, these politicians are going against the natural law (which of course Catholic teaching is in complete accord with).  We don’t want (or need) to bring the religious angle into these debates, since by doing so many will immediately tune us out.  In the case of abortion, for example, the pro-life side can appeal to the protection of the fundamental human right, the right to life.  As an aside, while it hasn’t entered into your discussion here or the discussion thread, I often hear people in favor of traditional marriage state that we should let the voters decide, because up until now they’ve always voted against same-sex “marriage.”  I’m afraid that won’t be the case for much longer.  In any event, the arguments against recognizing anything other than a one man-one woman marriage hold firm, particularly if they appeal to natural law.  While appealing to Church teachings should work with Catholic politicians, I’m afraid it runs the risk of losing the overall debate with the rest of the population.

The voting “Catholics” do not vote with the “mind of the Church”. Many of them are not practicing Catholics and have adopted a secular world view but they continue to identify themselves as Catholic. We can’t do much about people not voting properly if they don’t practice their faith and do not pay attention to the directives given to them by the Church and to vote with a correctly formed conscience. I am totally fed up with Andrew Cuomo. He also seems to have some sort of tv program where he dialogs with a priest. Either he’s receiving poor catechesis or just openly being defiant. He is making a mockery of the Catholic faith. The priests being ordained today are healthy heterosexuals and not part of the homosexual contingent of the past. Fr. Corapi’s situation is very different in terms of disciplinary action. His case does not fall under the rules of the Dallas Charter since there are no minors involved so we can’t blame any bishop for this. Many so called Catholic institutions of higher education are “run” by a liberal contingent so I would generally agree with the statement that you can lose your faith if you’re not careful where you or your children receive their education. There are only a handful of orthodox universities in the United States.

So this is what it’s coming to: Bishops imposing Catholic doctrine on the WHOLE population AND forcing politicians to support that. So the threat that one questioner was worried about with Pres. Kennedy is now real: the American people have to worry about a foreign power dictating to American politicans about their vote. This is a threat to our country since we now have politicians who have to be worried about either voting according to CONSTITUTIONAL principles OR those dictated by a foreign power. And, yes, the VATICAN is a foreign power when it TELLS politicians how to vote. Perhaps its time to remove the tax exempt status from the Catholic church

I agree with the article, but it does not go far enough.  Why limit the scope to those in support of gay marriage.  We need to impose canonical consequences to those in support of abortion; to those in support of divorce; and to those in support of contraception.  Anyone who publicly supports any of these positions MUST suffer the canonical consequences.  The more severe the consequence, the clearer the message will be.

@Bob - Bishops are not imposing Catholic doctrine on the WHOLE population. A religious leader has the duty to speak out against immoral legislation. Since the formation of this great Nation we have been a Christian Nation based upon Judeo Christian principles. Just because a contingent of gay activists decides to change the definition of marriage and the Governor of New York signs the legislation(who also happens to identify himself as Catholic) mean I need to sit down and die and accept this. Andrew Cuomo is welcome to vote as he pleases or sign into legislation anything he believes in but but he needs to stop calling himself Catholic and the Bishop needs to address this. By the way, the Vatican does not tell anyone who to vote for so please don’t make inflammatory statements that you know very well are untrue. The last time I looked I have the same constitutional rights as you do and I don’t want gay “marriage” in this country and I have every right to protest against that. This conversation is about politicians who identify themselves as Catholic but openly live their lives in direct opposition to the natural law.

According to canon law 915 and common sense,bishops and priests are not allowed to give Holy Communion to proabort and prosodomy politicians.If they do give Communion to well known dissenters from fundamental Catholic teachings,the bishops themselves become part of the scandal.They may talk about changing hearts[echoing Mario Coumo’s 1984 Notre Dame speech]but there is no evidence that hearts are being changed in the right direction.Polling data suggest the opposite

@ David et al: For those who think tough sanctions by the Bishops would not be productive or fruitful? I refer you to the good Bishop Tobin of Rhode Island who took the former representative to Congress, Patrick Kennedy, to the woodshed in no uncertain and very public terms. The dissenting Congressman did not run for re-election. Point here proven!The USCCB needs to get tough on these renegades! No less is expected from the faithful! Nor should it be! Until the USCCB develops some spine and forgets their concerns about being PC and PR they should not bother with their annual collections. Faithful Catholics be on notice! Bishops are all too human..and like us money talks! BS walks!

...just the opposite.  The bishops need to lighten up.  It is not that the ‘bishops need to get serious’, it is that enlightened Catholics are no longer listening to them. Go ahead and advocate ‘tightening the screw’, it is counter-productive. The eucharist never was meant to be a weapon to withhold it for political rationale, but is forever a nourishing spiritual food. May God help those who refuse to nourish according motivated by a self-indulged whim.

Mary M. says it well: “This conversation is about politicians who identify themselves as Catholic but openly live their lives in direct opposition to the natural law.”
The RCC absolutely must start withholding Communion from these hypocritical politicians, and ANYONE who publicly supports these evils.  Anyone publicly supporting homosexuality, contraception, divorce… the Bishops are obligated to step in.  Faithful Catholics will celebrate the day the Bishops grow a collective spine and weed out “Catholics” who practice or support these abominations.  These people have no business celebrating the Liturgy of the Eucharist anyway.  The Bishops would simply be enforcing something (canonical consequences such as withholding Communion) that is already an objective reality (these people are not in full communion with the RCC).

@Everybody
I’m pretty sure this Bob is the same troll we fed in the combox for The Sportswriter vs. The Archbishop. Let’s not repeat that mistake, and ignore his inflammatory comments, since he’s clearly demonstrated he doesn’t desire to know more about the Catholic perspective. Let’s save our attention for people who actually desire to know what we believe about this issue and why.

Bob, do you believe the authority of Christ resides within His Church?  It’s not about imposing Catholic doctrine on politicians, it’s about fidelity to Christ and His teachings.  The Church’s teaching is Christ’s teaching.  This is not an imposition- it should be fully embraced by a disciple of the Lord Jesus.  Any politician who claims to be a disciple of Christ should have no problem following His teachings.  It’s not about your secular view of power, but it is about the salvation of souls.  If a politician claims to be Catholic then they must BE CATHOLIC.  If they choose to follow pagan secular ideology, then they have freely chosen their master and should expect to reap what they have sown. They can’t have it both ways, that’s just not realistic.

Mary, there are several flaws in your post. First, bishops have the right to tell their flock about morality. They do NOT have the RIGHT to tell POLITICIANS how to vote. If they DO, they surrender their tax exempt status. Second, this is NOT a Judeo Christian country and you Christians had better understand that. THis is a SECULAR democracy. You want religion? Move to Saudi Arabia. A wonderfully, deeply religious country. But, then, you wouldn’t be permitted to vote!

Richard, there is a difference in forcing people to behave religiously and forcing POLITICIANS to vote a certain way. Certainly if someone is stupid enough to be Catholic and believe they can have freedom, they have that right. But CATHOLIC polticians do NOT have the RIGHT to tell ME how to run MY life. You Catholics go ahead and TRY to tell Baptists, Mormons, etc. that they CAN’T have contraception and divorce. I DARE you. You guys will lose your tax exempt status so fast you’ll wonder what hit you!

Wprjr, what is an “ENLIGHTENED” Catholic?  Surely you don’t refer to someone who is unfaithful to the Magisterium of the Church, but chooses instead to follow a secular view of the world?  That’s not enlightenment, that’s heresy.  Again its a matter of choosing which master one will serve.  The choice is clear.  There is no ambiguity.

Bob, Bob, Bob - Why don’t you move to Saudi Arabia? And while you are at it, why don’t you check out what’s happening over at the Huffington Post where you would feel more at home rather than wasting your bigoted responses on this orthodox blog. No one here really cares what you have to say.

the Church has lost the homosexual issue because it was too slow in responding to the in your face antics of the homosexual community…the Bishops were too cowardly to defend purity…just as they were cowardly to speak out against the feminist movement that has spread the death of abortion throughout the world. the moral voice of the Church is silenced by the HOMOSEXUAL priests that have no other agenda but to destroy the Church from the inside…the sins of the people in the Church, who continue to have abortions, use of condoms, cheating on our spouses, endosing of the homosexual lifestyle, its no wonder the Church is on its knees..the only way the Church and the world to get straightened out is going to be by the DIRECT INTERVENTION OF GOD ON THE WORLD…humanity has lost its sense of sin and a WORLD WIDE CHATISHMENT on the world is long overdue…......a punishment worse than the flood of noah is coming upon us all…....time to put the kneelers back in the Churches and USE THEM.

L.D., I surely refer to an enlightened Catholic as having a perspective which demonstrates the requisites of an educated mind. To differ from the present Catholic hierarchy is not ‘heresy’, although many would like to think so, and act in an arrogant righteous indignant manner about it. Magisterium of the Church today is nothing more than unthinking conservative propaganda, entirely political.  No cleric in today’s church gets anywhere through knowledge, learning or thinking but solely based on political considerations of conservatism. “authority of Christ resides in his Church”, as strange as the following might seem to you, Xt never founded a church, despite the gospel of Matthew; “though art Peter, and upon this rock….”  Christ taught the kingdom of God is at hand, before some of the disciples die the kingdom will come…Paul believed the kingdom would arrive before his death. So, what need would there be for a church, particularly since the Lord was obedient to the Law His entire life…born a Jew, educated as a Jew, lived and died a Jew…no rationale at all for establishing a church.  The early Xtians were a Christian Jewish sect led by James, who battled Paul, and Peter was but a go between. Peter whom Paul called the world’s biggest hypocrit….

@wpjar…Nor was the Eucharist meant for hyprocrites! Jesus spoke very
clearly and forcibly to those ” whitened sepulchres ” of His day…the Pharisees. The Bishops were ordained to lead and teach..not to tickle the ears of hearts too hardened to hear and respond to Truth! To deny the Eucharist is not using the Body of Christ as a weapon…rather it is protecting the Sacredness of the Host and at the same time preventing such sinners from condemning themselves through such blasphemy.
You can look to what Paul said about partaking of the Supper unworthily
in 1 Corinthians: 11:27-32 wherein you will find: “For anyone
who eats and drinks without discerning the body (UNWORTHY MANNER) eats
and drinks judgment upon himself.” A well informed Catholic, that is one who has formed a correct conscience, knows these things. Maybe Mario never helped his son in these matters to become well informed. The fruit does not fall far from the tree!

Wpjr, are you Christian?

Yes it is high time the hierarchy awake. If catholic politicians support morals not approved by the Church , they should be given in writing what the Church teaching is.  If they do not heed, it would mean that they are not interested to be catholic. Then institute canonical proceedings. Yes, let the authorities pick up courage to say the truth

WPRjr…sorry to have messed up your user-name! I stand corrected on that
but “enlightened Catholics”??? They used to be called heretics! Perhaps the reason that Jesus’Father in heaven revealed himself to the poor and the little ones and not the “enlightened ones” is He knew better than to cast pearls before swine! Are we to congratulate you on knowing more than two thousand plus years of Christian theology and philosophy? My quess is that too little humility and too much pride are more likely reasons for your dissent.

I’m with robert waligora.  Worldwide chastisement is the only answer.  If you’re homosexual, divorced, have used contraception, cheated on your spouse, had an abortion, or publicly supported any of the above, be prepared for your chastisement.  It’s clearly the only thing left to do.  The few faithful Catholics still around need to band together.  We need to gnash our teeth, rend our garments and wail.  We need to call the rest of the world to task.  We need to create a way to distinguish between true and faithful Catholics and other so-called “Catholics”; perhaps an identification card or something.  Anyone unable to produce an ID card is disallowed from Communion.  It sounds extreme, but the spineless Bishops have gotten us to this point, and there are simply no other options.

Agreed, Pat. Catholic politicians cannot expect to maintain the name of “Catholic” if they do not act accordingly. If the bishops pay more attention to where the politicians are being taught and how (right on, Mary M.!), then we would not be half in the mess we are now. Thank you for your article.

Bishops are not telling renegade Catholic politicians how to vote when
they correct them for their deceit. It’s their duty!  To claim to be Catholic while publically supporting non-Catholic positions on just about every social issue is hypocritical and misleading people not only about Catholicism ...but also about who you really claim to be. How can you claim to hold and believe in certain moral values and then act oppositely? A Catholic can not have his cake and eat it anymore than anyone else. If the voters don’t want to vote for a Catholic so be it! At least personal integrity ought to count for something. These renegade Catholic politicians who would deny their faith for votes are not worth that infamous “pitcher of spit”! Cowards all!! and not worthy of the public trust!

YES! YES! You speak the truth!

What ever happened to the practice of excommunication?

Sigh, when are the tumbrells getting their wheels greased? ... the scythes and pitchforks sharpened, and the bundles of sticks tied together for the auto da fes to come? Let me guess, the public BBQs (of our bishops, no less!) will probably begin August 3rd if the debt ceiling isn’t raised and the EPA can’t send any inspectors to enforce the Clean Air Safety Act.
  Am I the only Catholic who’s had enough of this anti-clerical neo-McCarthyism? Hope not.  I also hope I have more company when it comes to seeing the oddball nature of this situation when what we have here is a smallish group of very narrow-minded lay Catholics who in one side of their mouth(s) are saying, “Catholic Pol X, you know you must obey the Church on this and that issue,” while out of the other corner they can’t wait to trash the man for all the shortcomings they think they “have on him” or can’t wait to add, “just to be safe” in the building of “the case against Bishop Y.”
  Time to get a life folks. Finger-pointing, bloviations, threats of excommunications and cries for excommunications will render us looking like the Fundamentalists after the Scopes Trial.
  If this train (Register) is headed for the old “Catholic Ghetto,” I’m ready to jump before it crashes into the headhouse of the terminal called reality.

You guys want to push your church on America? The solution is simple: Americans will stop voting for Catholic politicians

By the way..a new poll shows Cuomo has a 62% approval rating among CATHOLICS. Oh, darn, the people are more faithful than the bishops

“I’m ready to jump…”

Okay… 1…2…3…. JUMP!!!

Bye!

HEY!!  It’s the Bob and Steve Show !! We recognize you for the Catholic website trollers you are…you are the ones that should get a life…and a better grip on all things Catholic! Your bias is (ahem!) showing! once more! What better way to trash all things and persons Catholic than by reverting to the ancient cries of inquisition, witch-burners, etc. etc. etc. Sighhhhh…nothing new with these folks!  Such a selective memory…but we have heard this kind of offensive blather since the Middle Ages…You need new and more persuasive arguments. You are putting us all asleep with your tedious contentions. As for jumping the train (Register)..you exited this train a long, long time ago!

@bob…as for your “poll” numbers? 62% of “catholics” approve of Cuomo?
Is that the same group that hasn’t been to Sunday mass in years..and still call themselves Catholic? The numbers seem familiar! As for suggesting that voters stop voting for Catholics? I would second that!
When the renegades realize that being “Catholic” won’t garner them votes maybe they will wake up…and voters will have an opportunity to vote for real Catholics! I quess if you can change the definition of marriage you
can change the definition of Catholic…nice try!!!

Thirst, you’re welcome to pass judgement on your fellow Catholics for not slavishly bending to making America a theocracy. Be my guest. Imagine! Catholics who believe in separation of Church and State…

separation of Church and State

You mean that concept from a private letter by Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church which was worried about the state interfering with the church?  Nothing in the Constitution about it, considering that the “establishment of religion”

Question for you, Bob:

The Catholic Church (among others) was involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the 50’s and 60’s.  Many Catholic segregationists (including politicians) were threatened with excommunication for their policies, and some were indeed excommunicated.  Was that meddling in politics?

@Thirst for Truth: Sometimes if you weren’t so busy playing Torquemada, you might just realize that you’ve already found the Truth in the Tabernacle, the Eucharist which you receive (may I, safely presume)you attend Mass. What more do you need to bring happiness and meaning into your life? Playing Inquisitor or like some of the Pharisees who dogged Jesus throughout his ministry won’t quench your thirst. Not at all. Fire & brimestone always have a way of drying things up. Don’t you think?
  Besides, if you’re the true blue Catholic I think you are (and you want the whole world to accept as gospel truth) you should know that you don’t have any clout or even a flimsy soap-box pulpit to stand on and tell me to leave the Church, much less any rights to demand the miters of any bishops. Who made YOU judge and fry-er?

No, Dave, I mean the 1st amendment. Theocrats should read it! America has no state church. And, no, depite your revisionist view of history, Dave, no church can be established in the US. HOWEVER, go ahead and push! I long for the day when you do and the RCC is destroyed by Protestant STATE churches. The 1st protects YOU. And NO POLITICIAN was threatened with excommunication during the Civil Rights movement.

Our Bishop’s getting serious about such matters?  What a joke.  They are merely caretakers.  Getting them to collectively move on anything is like try to herd cats.  The only time my Bishop gets serious is when Vera Wang calls with her new line of designer vestments or when the dessert cart is wheeled in at a Knights of Columbus spaghetti dinner (naturally) held in his honor.

@bob….My right to speak to Truth does not come from you! It comes from
God…and that right is guaranteed by the Constitution. No one including myself is “pushing theocracy” least of all the Catholic Church. However the trend of late is just the opposite…where the state is trying to interfere with the teachings of the Church and limit the freedoms to practice the tenets of Christianity upon which this country was founded.
An example of this kind of abuse just occured in NYstate where the SSM
bill passed in the legislature 33/20! In the 31 states where this most
basic right was voted upon by the populace it has been defeated. America has a state religion..It is called Secular humanism and is gaining momentum.
@Steven…No where did I state you should leave the Church…just made
the comment that you seem to have done that yourself…by distortion of basic teachings…and calling out those who have not denigrating names as
Torquemado…a nice “Christian” practice! I think I have as much right
to express myself here and to defend the real positions of the Church..as you do to denounce them. No one will accuse you of correctly stating the facts…just your usual blather against traditional Catholic
teachings! I quess those who are emboldened enough to redefine marriage have the same inclination to re-define Catholicism.

I think it’s the principle that those living in glass houses cannot throw stones.  As a group, our bishops have made too many poor decisons & over too many years.  So as a result, they cannot be taken seriously and especially not by Catholic politicians serving electorates that may not even be Christian.  Church leaders are to be men of morals, men having personal integrity, grounded in the Christian faith and unified, so they will command authority with those they shepherd.  How can we get that?

“The job of Catholic laypeople is to change the thinking of their political parties and leaders with the tools of their Catholic faith.? Laypeople should be the leaven of Jesus Christ in the public square.? And if we want to know the kind of commitment that will be demanded from us in the 21st century, we can simply reflect on the title of the Acts of the Apostles. [...]  Benedict reminded American Catholics that we need to use our numbers and influence to enter into the public square in an active way.? He called us to bring Christian hope to the public debate, to be clear and united in our Catholic presence in society, and to be a leaven in our nation’s public life.”—- Archbishop Chaput

@ ED.  I would prefer that Benedict first deal with Catholics in Italy and Germany before “reminding” United States Catholics of anything.  Many are tired of the United States being treated merely as a cash cow for yet another “Second Collection” by leaders who really know very little about our country and how our Constitution actually works.

There should be little, if any, separation of Church and state. If there is, however, separation of Church and state, the state is responsible for respecting the Church and the authority that She has. The behavior which the state is exhibiting towards the Church at this time is, for the most part, grossly rude and degrading. This nation was founded to rule out religious persecution and misunderstanding. Therefore, the state should uphold respect for the Church. Giving the “okay” to same-sex marriage is not what I call respect.
ThirstforTruth, you are right on.

N.O.— perhaps you should write or call our Holy Father?  I’m sure he would be very pleased to hear from you.

@ ED.  The problem is that we call these politicians Catholic—only because they identify themselves as Catholic.  In fact, lots of people call themselves Catholic and haven’t stepped inside a church in the last 20 years.  For Benedict to think he can influence a collective Catholic audience to include self-identified Catholic power brokers in Washington is ridiculous.  Witness Pelosi, Biden, Durbin, Dodd, Leahy, Daschle—all voting for abortion rights and don’t forget the dozens of Kennedys doing the same including the Kennedy by marriage—Arnold, failing to defend marriage in CA along with then AG (now Gov.) Jerry Brown of CA also Jesuit seminary trained who supports gay marriage.  Benedict doesn’t understand American culture nor how the system of government works in the United States.  If he did, Pelosi would not have had a seat of honor to receive communion when Benedict visited DC.

@Richard - “I’m with robert waligora.  Worldwide chastisement is the only answer.  If you’re homosexual, divorced, have used contraception, cheated on your spouse, had an abortion, or publicly supported any of the above, be prepared for your chastisement.  It’s clearly the only thing left to do. Richard, the only thing to do and the most important thing to do is repent and go to confession. Our Lord waits there for to absolve us of our sins. His mercy endures forever.

Bob-Troll:

I think you’ve proven with your reply to me that you’re just here to rant.  Partly my fault, since I left a sentence incomplete.  I know what the “establishment of religion” means in the Constitution.  It means the establishment of a specific religion or church, as was and is the custom in Europe.  Aside from a tiny minority,almost no Catholic in the US desires a state church of any sort.  And then there’s the second half of that phrase:  “or prohibit the free exercise thereof.”  Prayers before legislative sessions, “God save this honorable court”, proclamations of thanksgiving to Almighty God - lots of acknowledgement of the Deity in government.

The bishops did excommunicate segegationists in the 60’s.  Archbishops Rummel and Cody of New Orleans and Cardinal Ritter of St. Louis were very adamant about civil rights, and weren’t afraid to put down the hammer.

When will Bishops muster enough courage to excommunicate “catholic” politicians for their immoral political stands. Their silence in face of the legalization of gay marriage, as in the case of legalized abortion when they could possibly have prevented it’s implementation, was deafening.  It’s obvious that gonads aren’t a prerequisite for their confirmation. The cowards in their ranks should resign immediately if they’re not willing to act as protectors of the faith and make way for those that will.

Thirst, your Orwellian doubletalk can’t hide the facts. First, no one is denying you your right to ‘speak truth’, whatever that means. HOWEVER, we have SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE in this country. You do NOT have a RIGHT to force your beliefs on me, and that INCLUDES FORCING POLITICIANS to vote like your church wants them to. WHERE is anyone trying to force the Church to do ANYTHING? The latest bill PROTECTED the church and your bizarre view that you have a RIGHT to FORCE your views on me is WRONG. Christianity is NOT mentioned in our Constitution. Bepi…your view is common in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Not in the US. Christianity is just ONE religion.

Yes, Rummel excommunicated a Catholic politician for interfering with the integration of CATHOLIC schools. You Catholics seem to think that one of your rights is to FORCE others to believe as you do! NO ONE is forcing you to be gay. NO ONE is forcing you to marry same sex couples. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!

Bob,

Being a Catholic is not an entitlement, if politicians would rather have power than be faithful to the teachings of the Church Christ found…then they already left.

@bob..Those who think circuitously are bound to go round in circles..I think this explains your discombobulation concerning all things Catholic.  “Orwellian double-talk”? Not sure
what you mean…Orwell was neither Christian nor Catholic. Also kindly explain to those who are willing to suffer through it where you get this idea of
separation of Church and State.Not in the Constitution, please.!! You seem like a Jeffersonian on crack!! Never said I could/would force you to believe ...you just won’t stop mis-stating what the Church teaches and
Catholics, meanng those who accept the Pope, the Magisterium and its teachings, are obligated to refute the heresy you so clumsily perpetuate. The Church has not forced a single vote from anyone, Catholic or otherwise. But it has the authority to enforce the Truth it was charged to defend. I hate to even ask this as I shutter at the kind of response that will follow but here goes for what it is worth:
...How did the SSM bill just passed in NYState benefit the Church as you bizarrely stated?? and protected it??  As for no Christianity in the minds of the Founding Fathers? Try reading the pre-amble to the Declaration of Independence ( which we celebrate this
weekend ) and continue to hold that thought. You cannot! You are a classic example of the “enlightened Catholic”! Spare us all and move
on over to the NCReporter where your venom is commonplace!

@ bob: “You Catholics seem to think…”.. Bob! You mean you are not one of us? And since when are Catholics excluded from the business of government? We don’t get to voice our opinion in your enlightened mind?
You are the bigot you show yourself to be…why are you so afraid of the Catholic Church…I am seeing FEAR in all your statments…where the bogeyman is always the Catholic Church. Interesting!  I think I am beginning to understand you…or what you really represent and it is not a pretty picture! Good night Bob..God bless you in your state of consternation ..but I doubt you and I have much more to say to each other so let’s give it a rest!

Thirst, you just don’t get it, do you? What if a Muslim said Sharia had to be implemented in the US because that’s what the Quran required? Would you support that? Why should anyone legitimize the rabid position of the USCCB about gays? You don’t want to marry a gay? DONT!!! It’s realy that simple. You mind YOUR business….everyone else does theirs. Your problem with that is what?

@True Blue. Our heartfelt and honest differences concerning how best our bishops should tackle the more contentious issues and deal with Catholic politicians, notwithstanding—regarding Bob—please refer to the story about Archbishop Dolan and the Sportwriter. Bob’s very involved towards the tail end of that thread. When you see it, you’ll understand, and save you both a lot of unnecesary aggravation.

@bob…what the government does IS my business and your business too…but what the Church does/teaches is NOT your business though you think you have that right. You are calling the position on homosexuality held by the Church as rabid? For 2000 years! this has been the position of every government on the planet!!In all of Christianity ( that is over a period of 2000 years)no nation has made homosexual marriage legal. In
31 states here where voters were given their constitutional right to vote it has been soundly rejected. Fact: George Washington sent home any and all homosexuals in his army and your pal, Thomas Jefferson, equated rape
with homosexuality! How can you argue that homosexuality is at all normal
or healthy or natural behavior among humans. Fact: In recent times it has been shown to be closely associated with high incidences of Aids world-wide as well as other insidious diseases, and early death is not at all
unusual among those who choose this lifestyle. Try to remember one single society where homosexual marriage was considered both normal and legal.
It takes some hubris indeed to declare that one is smarter and wiser than all of known history. No man is an island Bob…so to tell me it is none of my business when deviancy and moral depravity are being promoted and in danger of becoming de riguer among our mores is insane! You bet I will make it my business! I have an important stake in the future…my grandchildren..and the kind of world we are leaving them. Don’t you dare tell me my opinion does not count…it does! You can express yours also
but it takes a certain kind of intellectual dishonesty to come on a Catholic website, pretending you are an “enlightened Catholic” and take us all who live the faith to task for doing just that. Good night and good bye Bob…unfortunately, odd penny that you are, surely you
will turn up again on one of these Catholic websites. Someone else is welcomed to do battle with you but it is like shoveling sand against the
tides.

Not just Catholics, Bob-troll:  Lutherans,Eastern Orthodox, and Evangelicals oppose this.  So do Mormons, Sikhs and Orthodox Jews.  If all of us were to get together and try to impose a theocracy, it;d be very shaky at best.  But all of this is governed by what CS Lewis called the Tao, or, to put it more directly, the Natural Law.

Thirst, there is NO justification, as the founding fathers recognized, for having church doctrine as govt. policy. That’s why they wrote the 1st amendment. And slavery was an institution for 2000 years as well. The Church approved of THAT. Should we go back to that? And polygamy was part of civilization as well, just look at Muslim countries. The correct solution is to let religous groups do THEIR thing but to mind their own business. Again, WHAT do you have against having the govt. butt out of people’s PERSONAL lives? Jefferson and Washington were slave owners. Ready to bring that back? It takes hubris to go against logic. There are a number of countries where homosexual marriage has been legalized. Name ONE where your apocalyptic fears have come true. Unless you have EVIDENCE..EVIDENCE…EVIDENCE..then MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I consider Christianity to be deviant behavior. You ready to let me outlaw it? I’m not!

Everybody get back on topic and stop allowing “bob-troll” to take this into a discussion of the exstasies of the homosexual lifestyle. He did enough of that over at The Archbishop and the Sportwriter. The topic that Matthew Arnold is discussing is much more to the point of the actions and reactions of the members of the USCCB..should they get tougher? or are they doing an adequate job of shepharding the flock on all these issues. I personally think most are not performing their duties in an effective way with afew exceptions.e.g. Bishop Tobin of Rhode Island who took one of the most renegade “Catholic” politicians to the wood-shed and got one heck of a result…Patrick Kennedy did not present himself for re-election this past year. Too bad Law didn’t try that on Uncle Teddy! It
would have saved millions of lives (aborted babies) and lots of grief.
Stay on topic and ignore the trolls here ..and they will get bored and go elsewhere!

Thirst for Truth… I can’t believe I used the words “True Blue,” I was thinking of another forum. LOL, don’t write under the influence of ADHD! But my advice about Bob will still help ... both of you. Again, my apologies.

Years back, Andrew’s father Mario and the “esteemed” Geraldine Ferraro of Long Island (nominated to win the Catholic vote) pioneered the Catholic politician response concerning their pro-abortion positions with “I am personally opposed to abortion, but I cannot force my views upon others.”  Now we have the same Catholic politician response concerning gay marriage.  Notice that all the gay marriage states (except for one) are all in the elitist Northeast.  Gay marriage has never won at the ballot box.  Must be something in the water up there.  In the meantime, our bishops are pre-occupied with more important things like playing musical chairs with the liturgy.  Disagree if we must regarding matters of doctrine, but our guys were (and have been) content to allow media targets like Robertson, Graham and Falwell catch the heat either because our bishops have a yellow streak or worse yet, the Evangelical leaders are, well, .. ....... Protestant.  Seems Daniel above at 8:06pm hit the mark with his bishop’s have “no gonads” comment.

Read this statement by Bishop Tobin

@Bob - “I consider Christianity to be deviant behavior.” Your comment is disgusting. Put your cards on the table, Bob. You’re gay and you have an axe to grind with the Catholic Church. Understand something, Bob, the Catholic Church did not identify homosexual behavior as defiant - it was God. If you think that naked men celebrating in the sreets of San Francisco after the passage of the NY legistation is not defiant then God help you. If you think people of the same sex should marry then God help you. We are not a secular Nation. Look at our currency and recite the Pldege of Allegiance. We’re not secular. Bob we are, One Nation Under God. Why not go over to the National Catholic Reporter as someone mentioned earlier. You’re not getting any support from any one of us here. Your comment about Christianity speaks to the hatred you have in your heart.

Hi Mary, well if it makes you feel better to say I’m gay, then go for it. I’m not. Any more than someone who believes in civil rights has to be black. You say God defined it as deviant? Fine. Let God handle it. It’s none of YOUR business what OTHER people do in private, nor if they want to get married. I don’t spend my time worrying about other people’s sex lives. THAT is deviant! What is your obsession with sex? The Pledge, ORIGINALLY WRITTEN, did NOT contain ‘under God’, so if that’s your proof we’re under god, you’re wrong. We are NOT under god. If we WERE, the CONSTITUTION would say it. We’re SECULAR. I’m not looking for support. The deviant religious lifestyle is not subject to reason.

@Bob - I’m not obsessed with sex; I’m “obsessed” with what is good and right in the eyes of God. If we had no laws and society could do what they wanted we would have anarchy in the streets pretty much what happended with the disgusting defiant behavior of the naked men. I notice you didn’t mention that so I guess that’s o.k. with you. By virtue of of my bapism I am a disciple of Christ and I have been “sent” by Christ to carry His message. If you don’t want to hear then you don’t have to but no one, including you, will prevent me from being His disciple and speaking and condeming defiant behavior and excpecting me to accept it. Why is it o.k. for you to say to me I must accept this as law? Why do I need to accept your seclar world view? I don’t and that’s why we live in a democracy where we can speak our mind and fight for our beliefs. I also notice you didn’t mention our currency mention God; so I guess that’s a mistake also. I guess because we also follow the Christian calendar 2011 A.D. that is also a mistake. Those of you who want to destroy the fabric of our Nation being religous are poison to society. You expect everyone to be tolerant and yet you are the most intolerant of all saying that religion is defiant. How dare you!!! Excuse me but I’m going outside to hang the American flag to remember and rejoice that our Nation was founded on Christian principles despite your rants to the contrary, which thank God are in the minority. Lord Jesus Christ you are the Savior of the Word; Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Americas help us to stay focused on your Son now and forever. Amen.

Circular reasoning, Mary. Your God seems sex obsessed. As to naked men, who cares? Is that the sum of your life? Naked men and private sex obsessions? If that’s your God, he’s pretty weird! If you get to force YOUR beliefs on others, when why isn’t it fine for others to force their beliefs on you? You need to accept my secular world view because AMERICA is SECULAR, NOT religious. Read those words again. NO religios govt. in history was just. Not one. Ever. Not in ALL of history. Religion has a 100% FAILURE rate when applied to govt.  I don’t care about tolerance. I care about LAW and RIGHTS. You go ahead and keep bleating that America is a Christian nation. No Jew, Muslim, Atheist, etc. will agree with you, since you’re WRONG. You still have yet to show me where in the CONSTITUTION it says America is Christian. You can’t.

Comments from people like bob make me question the future of democratic pluralism in Western nations.  People like that portray freedom as a zero-sum game in which some people can have it only as a result of other people losing it, e.g. the sort of secularism in which Christians should be excluded from the public sphere.  And the issue of gay rights is where you see that sort of thinking expressed most often at the moment. 

This just reinforces my belief that gay rights are a proxy issue for a move away from universal rights and toward statism with government-enforced orthodoxies, where you are “free” to do and say anything the State approves of.  Tyrants all the way from Caesar to Ho Chi Mihn have regarded the Church as a singular threat, because if there is a transcendant God, then the State is not it.  Without doubt someone or something has to be top dog, the court of final appeal. If God is denied, then the State takes that role by default.  It’s likely that bob doesn’t even see this.

@ Ed…Thanks for the reference to Bishop Tobin’s statement…worthwhile
reading. I appreciate his statement reiterating to us the teachings of the Church and the will of God on these issues, More important is the fact that this is a Bishop who backs up these statements with action. He is a model of what a true Shepherd does and in my opinion under-rated and under-appreciated by most of the USCCB. God has blessed us with Bishop Tobin!

A gentle reminder people!!! This is not a blog about “bob-troll”! Stay on message and avoid the pitfall he wants you to fall into. Don’t go there ...ignore him…he will go away!

Now let’s see. Kevin wants to deny OTHERS the freedom to live as THEY want. He thinks HIS rights are infringed because he can’t infringe the rights of others. And the irony is lost on him! He wants a state orthodoxy where you have the rights the church gives you. Just like it was in the good old days. Very ironic indeed! And no, I don’t see God in the state. AGAIN and again you people ignore one salient fact: NO religious govt in history…NONE…was ever free. And NO religious govt TODAY is free. You all ignore this point. Why?

Mary and bob…Carl Sagan said it best that if it were not for religion we would have interstellar travel by now.  Tha ‘ancients’ had all the math available that they needed, but alas, religion interfered as a reactionary force resisting all change and unaccepting of new findings.
Mary if this country was founded ‘upon Christian principles’, please state what they possibly could be.  But, first in order to be a ‘Christian principle’ that principle must be exclusive to Christianity or else it is a universal principle.
Finally, it need be said that this nation is NOT a Christian nation;  not now, not ever, and hopefully will never be a Christian nation…but remain a nation of diversity. Although it is true many of our earliest citizens were evangelical Protestants, and Patrick Henry fought for a Theocracy, times were changing.  As the Renaissance brought an end to the Middle Ages, so the Enlightenment put an end to the age of Absolutism.  The world had been deemed static until such notables as Darwin et al enlightened us with the ebb and flow of a dynamic and changing world.  Our two notables, Franklin and Jefferson were enlightened as is our Constitution.  The end of the 18th century highlights the Enlightenment, which for once placed emphasis on science and reason replacing religious superstition, ending divine right monarchs, putting to rest the Reformation.  The rationale is not a numbers game of how many were evangelical Christians, but dynamic change of culture, philosophy, science and literature. These issues have persisted to the present in the form of counter enlightenment(which is rapid on this board); e.g. PiusX and sins of Modernism, Creationism, and teaching of intelligent design.

Is that the best you can do, bob?  Attributing to me a bunch of things I never said?  Are you here to get us to trust in the tolerance and enlightenment of a state run by people who think like you?  A swing and a miss.
bob and jesuitical are reinforcing my point: gay rights is a proxy for the imposition of statism, which intolerant, hate-filled atheistic fundamentalists mischaracterize as freedom.  They are flaming examples of why Christians should not be fooled by the rhetoric that tells us to shut up and retreat to within the church walls for the sake of diversity.

A state run by people like me who mind our own business, or run by you with cops in every bedroom? A state where sex i owned by the govt or is a private matter between adults? Me? I’ll go with small rather than BIG govt. Your Orwellian logic where the state runs everyone’s sex life and yet that’s ‘freedom’ is just bizarre. Christianist theocracies are fascist states. ALways have been. Look at Franco’s Spain. You ignore history

@bob…and how is going on Catholic websites titled Bishops Need to Get Serious any of your “business” when all you have to offer is a rather
off-beat brand of atheism? How is a state that is so in the bedroom that they have destroyed the thousands year old definition of marriage as being that between a man and woman fit your definition? And how do you look at Franco’s Spain and draw from that your screwed up notion of the Catholic Church as a universal? What about the truth bob-troll for a change…not just your selective version of history..church or otherwise?
Go mind your business bob-troll and let the rest of us maintain…the quality and integrity of a Catholic website. God bless you in your darkness and somehow Lord, let the light in…

If you’re going to propose bigotry then tell us why it’s right. Slavery was a social value for thousands of years as well. I notice you ignore that. There ARE societies where gay marriage has been the law for over a decade with NO problems at all. Other than your arbitrary religious values there’s NO reason to oppose gay marriage. Franco’s Spain had Catholic moral values in LAW. How’d that work? You are unable to understand history. Go mind your own business Thirst, and let America be FREE.

Blessed Pope John Paul told the bishops when they were at the Vatican, to get back to the poverty of the Church and to get away from the politics of the government. Well a few tried to be faithful and to forbid politicians from receiving Holy Communion, but guess what? “Pope” Kennedy of the American catholic church, along with a bunch of so-called Catholics, wrote and protested to the Bishops that they should mind to their own affairs, and not wanting to lose $$$$$$$, this is what most of them did, except Bishops like Bishop Burke and what did the “pope” of America do? Ted had Bishop Burke exiled to the Vatican!!!  Pat is right on and it is past the time for the Bishops to be MEN OF GOD and to do what it is that needs to be done or they will have to answer to God!!  +JMJ+

Right. The bishops can refuse the Eucharist to those who disagree with their political prognostications in the realm of public policy, but what about the clear majority of Catholics, by virtually every poll done, who support marriage equality in NYS? Are you going to do the same to them? Why not pick out a random 62% and just declare them ineligible? The truth is that the bishops have lost most of their credibility with the public, and with many lay Catholics. They rant about SSM and abortion, but still fail to deal effectively with their own historic cover-up of the sex abuse scandal. I can hear them conspiring among themselves: “This is a perfect way to get them to focus on the sliver in their eyes rather than the log in ours!” The “need to get serious?” Yes, but not about Catholic politicians who don’t toe their line.

OK you bigots who believe being GAY is ‘deviant’ behavior…read THIS story about an AMERICAN PATIORT…a soldier who DIED in defense of our country and see if you moral COWARDS have the GUTS to call this GAY soldier a degenerate. GO ahead!
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/02/gay.soldier.andrew.wilfahrt/index.html

@bob…Again, you come from a different “mind-set” from the majority of the people on this website…even the author, so it is hard to fathom what you are doing here..Since you are so strong on everybody minding their own business why are you commenting on blogs at all ( I notice you have a penchant for going on Catholic sites only to tell everybody how wrong they are)You want to use a different dictionary and history book from everyone else also…impossible to find any common ground. So go ahead and redefine the dictionary and revise history to support your atheistic view of the world. You never back up your wild statements with
anything as even remotely serious evidence and what you say ends up just one big rant on the same old theme…down with the Catholic Church…they are at the bottom of all the evil in the world…along with your preference for the gay lifestyle and anything should be legal…as long as YOU think it is right and proper! Should anyone be at odds with you they are told to mind their own business…especially if one happens to be Catholic in their thinking. Toleration? What is your definition of that? I’m sure only you are tolerant ..everyone else here is bigoted!
Just for a close…where is that society that only you claim to know about where homosexual marriage is legal and is doing just so fine?Hmmm?
Please don’t bring up some ancient civilization that no one has ever heard of…nor any other ficticious places that exist only in your mind!T

@bob…the point of the story is NOT that this brave man was gay…it is
that he was a BRAVE man…his sexual preference is not the point! And his bravery is commendable…his sexual lifestyle was not…but that does not prevent our honoring him for his bravery. As far as I know bob-troll there are no medals for sodomy!YET!!!

THirst you’re dodging the issue. YOU say he’s a deviant. So tell me how a man who died in defense of his country is a deviant. So is he a pervert sodomite like you say this dead American solider is?

JMJ:

That was not an exile.  If Raymond Burke were exiled, he would have been made Assistant Undersecretary of some obscure congregation.  Instead, he is the ecclesial equivalent of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and has been created Cardinal.

@Jesuitical… Hate to ruin your Second of July (TODAY’S THE DAY, not the Fourth, that we told King George and Parliament that we’re on our own.) Well, I’m kinda partial anyway to it because it’s my wedding anniversary and the day the 20 th of Maine, saved the nation thanks to the brave leadership of Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain on Little Round Top at Gettysburg.)
  Here’s the “ruination part” … (LOL) … I couldn’t agree more with you regarding the nation’s official religious make up in the past, present and hopefully, future centuries to come. It’s through the bitter struggles of Jefferson and quiet diligence of many leaders, regardless whether they were Christian or not, or even believers, who helped to make this nation the freest land when it comes to one’s right to worship God in whatever way he or she chooses, or not believe in God. See, I’m not always writing “drivel,” though a few others might disagree with the rest of what I have to say and share.
  Maybe it’s because I’m very partial to the area where Daniel Shays, of “Shays’ Rebellion”  http://www.calliope.org/shays/shays2.html So when it comes to dealing with schlocky present-day attempts to re-write the history of the latter half of the eighteenth century   particularly the founding steps of our Republic, and the reasons it came about, I, have a hard time keeping a certain prickliness under wraps, so to speak … especially when the people re-writing the history are those associated with Wall-Builders and Beck University. (If anybody needs a solid example to back claims that history’s being “dumbed-down” more lately, let me just suggest the entire website for Beck’s history guru, David Barton’s “Wall-Builders” smorgasborg of whoppers as “Exhibit 1” for the prosecution. (This will prove even easier than the proverbial “indictment of a ham sandwich” joke associated with prosecutors seeking a grand jury indictment.)
  Shay’s Rebellion PUT THE FEAR OF GOD in our elite.  But I certainly won’t deny God’s invisible presence and flowing of graces that enabled the Framers to create the Constitution, given the fact they worked under great duress in stifling humid conditions and represented wildly differing states and considerable “key business interests.”  It had to be a miracle! (At least the Framers had enough integrity to refrain from calling the slave trade a “human being” or the various large fishing industries of New England for example, “human beings” also. It took the Supreme Court 223 years to come to that erroneous conclusion for all companies. As for the slave trade, the plantation system, it was already well represented in Philadelphia and sure as heck didn’t any Roberts Court to bend over backwards for it by handing it any “Citizens United” fraud for a decision.) Nevertheless, however flawed our first leaders were, somehow they, invisible guided by God…otherwise all would’ve gone to hell in a Nantucket whaler’s basket…came up with the greatest Constitution the world has ever seen since its ratification.  (Well, Bay State residents might argue that John Adams’ first Constitution, the one used by the Commonwealth today, the oldest one in the world, is superior. Well, separation of Church and State Purists could honestly put up a good case against Adams’ first mentions of the role of religion in the shaping of the earliest years of the Commonwealth it its present-day bi-cameral republican form, which … became, save for the religious parts, the model for the Framers when they met in Philadelphia. (Juicy ironies abound two centuries apart … “Romneycare” serves as the model for “Obamacare.”  Couldn’t resist. LOL)
  Yet, just when you’d think it was safe to believe the old canards used to justify chattel slavery, penal slavery, and yes, a return to the bad old days when there were no laws proscribing exploitation of minors on the workplace, our present day Congress appears hell bent on repealing child labor laws (in Maine of all places … they already have this Spring … so much for the “elitist Northeast.)  And who can forget Steven King (R) Iowa’s top Capo de Regime for La Famiglia Koch if he or she had ever witnessed his late night attempt to trash the Davis Bacon Act in phrases only a member of the slave state delegations to the Philadelphia could’ve found endearing. (Well, okay, let’s not forget their like-minded defenders of the “peculiar institution” who labored under similar delusions until 600,000 lives were lost during the Civil War.
Folks, do you realize that you’re contributions a work render you no more valuable to your employers than a sack of potatoes, boxes of blueberries, or anything else King cared to reduce the human race to in an official speech during a late night House session early last month?  http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/rep-steve-king-compares-workers-commodi
Sadly, the Civil War never fully ended slavery, just the plantation variety. It continued under other guises such as sharecropping and today, no thanks to greedy lawyers, lobbyists for privatized “corrections facilities”…which also will include debtors’ jails and who knows,  poor houses and farms, prisoners sentenced to such private pens could find themselves earning a buck a day making items for Victoria’s Secret and Starbucks, among other companies. (Think of that oh-so “upscale” coffee grinder company when you buy an overpriced cup o’lotta foamy cream on top o’ little joe at your local Barne’s n’ Noble and start reading the latest book about the coffee company’s ever so valiant efforts to bring it back to life without “losing its soul.”)
Perhaps what saddens me most about these “return to the good ol’ days” when there weren’t any leash laws for the dogs of capitalism … is that some of the biggest pushers of these retrograde “reforms” and “freeing up” the private sector … are Christians, including some vocal fiscally conservative Catholics in the Register’s website’s commentary threads.  The Church has, by and large, especially since the beginnings of John Paul II’s pontificate, worked hard to steer her faithful towards a middle appreciation of the potential complementary contributions of both private and government sectors. But there are times when I’ve found myself wondering if more of the Register’s readership and commentary (sections) participants are reading less John Paul II and more Milton Friedman, Ronald Reagan, Friedrich von Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, Ayn Rand, Rand & Ron Paul, Paul Ryan, Phil Gramm, Alan Greenspan, Rush Limbaugh and that ever prodigious champeen of social justice, Glenn Beck. (Hey, I’d LOVE to see some bishops do more “calling out” of Catholics promoting the works of that bunch and point out how much damage they’ve done to people already no thanks to the massive deregulation of the banking industry that’s caused such economic ruination and heartbreak to so many families who through no fault of their own lost not only their jobs, but their homes and barely kept their shirts on their backs.
God help not only this nation, but the rest of the world’s economy should we go into default because of selfish intransigence over taxes by politicians representing people who will still have more money left over to sustain their lifestyles, all the while everbody else will have to pay more. The so-called “wealth creators” will have gotten their filthy lucre to continue sending manufacturing jobs and future would-be opportunities for such jobs overseas, all so they can continue milking the cow dry.
As serious as we should take the institution of marriage seriously, we cannot, nor can our bishops, afford to be distracted by a looming financial crisis that if mishandled and allowed to result in a default-related financial melt-down … the gay marriage matter pales in comparison.
Yep, I know instinctively what I said above will lead the more fiscally conservative commentary contributors to go batcrap and start calling for readying my tumbrel and auto da fe.  So what. Bring it out, but don’t forget you might need a lot more of them to assuage your other anger that’ soon to follow if the Guardians of Plunder pull off this coup of bringing down the government and our economy from the Treasury Building to Wall Street to K-Street to Main Street and your street … to appease their wealthy pals n’ backers … just for the sake of making President Obama a one-term president, regardless of the wider cost to at least 300,000,000 Americans and billions of people abroad … those tumbrels will prove mighty popular.
Yes, there’s “thou shalt not kill” and clear instructions about homosexual conduct. There’s also a slew of other teachings concerning how we treat our fellow brothers and sisters when it comes to our finances. By the way, doesn’t Scripture tell us our views about money also give a clear(er) look inside concerning what we value most? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t value money over our Church’s teachings on matters of faith and morals. But doesn’t morality also include a whole set of do’s and don’ts beginning with Moses Ten Commandments. Massive theft and social injustice which produces smaller and smaller numbers of people amassing scandalous piles of personal wealth inevitably leads to massive reactions and over-reactions.
For all the right-wing romanticist’s efforts to re-write history in order to justify their Christian/capitalist system that was pre-ordained by God just for this country due to our Framers efforts in Philadelphia in 1787 … just remember what a bunch of BUNK that is and has been for narrow ideological purposes only. Because they really don’t want the people to even think of the first (and indeed, under-appreciated) “People’s Revolution” “ reform movement” whatever you wish to call it … prior to Roosevelt’s New Deal: Shay’s Rebellion.”  We and the original “originalists” were both blessed and lucky. The next time things might start looking more like what happened to the Bourbons and Romanovs.
I’m not excited about the idea of excommunicating Catholics John Boehner and Paul Ryan for their views and horrible political doings any more than I’m for excommunicating Gov. Cuomo over the gay marriage bill. It can sure as hell backfire in so many ways. On the other hand, if this budget and debt ceiling matter isn’t handled soon, I’d rather see the bishops “ get serious” with any Catholic politician on record as favoring the wealthy at the expense of the majority of the population, especially the “least of” His “brethren” and start issuing orders for denying Communion. This fight about gay marriage will seem like a minor tiff compared to what’ll happen in the wake of the United States of America violating its own Constitution (14 th Amendment: Article 4) for the first time in its history.
Again; in case anybody should misinterpret my warnings on the relative nature of these two crisis facing Catholics in the United States today, the ramifications, including some possible very violent ramifications, that could result from a Federal Default does not mean I value money over moral principles. As history has shown us time after time, the lack of any moral principles shown by the leading culprits of financial disasters and socially injust political/economic systems has always produced bloodshed. Ask the Russians, ask the Germans, ask the French, ask the Chinese, ask the Spaniards, ask the Mexicans, ask the Cubans, ask the Nicaraguans, ask the Argentinians and ask the Chileans.
Folks, stop wasting your time pointing fingers at this or that bishop you believe didn’t do enough to stop same sex marriage in New York, etc.  We need our bishops to be STRONG now in order to really put their prophetic powers to use in order to help bring about another constitutional and national miracle to save this nation. We need our bishops to be stronger now than ever before and trashing them over a lost cause in some states while a much bigger battle that will affect all of us would be one of the DUMBEST things possible we could do to them, the Church in the U.S. as a whole and our nation’s future.

@ bob…dodged the issue of “your” successful society where SSM is legal
didn’t cha??? bob-troll! Show me where I or anyone here called the brave soldier you referred to a pervert or a deviant..Only YOU did that bob-troll! Now to say I dodged the issue is lol…I said the man was brave and duly noted his award as praise-worthy. You are the one that put those words in my mouth ...like you do continuously though-out this thread to anyone who disagrees with you..as most do! SCORE! the comments here bob-troll and you will see your line of blather OUTSCORED! But you are a persistant little troll I must say. As for me…you wear me out! Good
bye for good! This is becoming a very boring bob/thirst show..not good.

@ Steven…I will address only the point that is pertinent to the above
article…the point being that our Bishops DO need to get more serious about their shepherding the flock..not just with eloquent speeches..but
forget the gov’t dole that pours into their coffers and ACT like Bishops who have AUTHORITY given to them centuries ago by God. That does not mean we expect them to try to turn this country into a Theocracy as some crazies here have suggested, but to do the job within the Church they were ordained to do..TEACH and LEAD and CORRECT renegade MEMBERS who
have the power to either do great good for this country..or great harm. Most of them have used their power entrusted by the electorate for their own selfish motives..and that DOES need to be pointed out in more ways than in-effective and fruitless speech-making to hardened hearts! Bishops
that become involved in secular politics have not appreciated the power that has been invested in them to do great things.

Hey Bob, if single people (straight or homosexual) are expected to keep their pants on, why can’t you?  It seems your defense rests with the fact that you are unable to control yourself.

Here’s another good article that reinforces the ‘mature’ and ‘sane’ comments on this thread.

New observer: if it makes you feel better to believe this, be my guest. Thats’ the best answer you have?

Thirst: you said gays are deviant. At least that’s the position of the USCCB. So you believe this hero was a deviant. You’re caught in a paradox, aren’t you? Successful societies where gay marriage is legal? Denmark. Sweden. Any number of European countries. SO Thirst you have no EVIDENCE that gay marriage HARMS society. Evidence. Evidence. None. None at all. So tell us again how this hero is a pervert, OK? Gays are normal people.

@Bob - “Thirst: you said gays are deviant” Get it straigt Bob, the Catholic Church is not into name calling. Homosexual activity is deviant; the person is not. And on the subject of naked men if you think it would be okay to walk with chidlren past this sick spectacle then I hope you are not a parent.

Instead of all this clamoring about the gay marriages about to happen (in addition to those already on the books) why aren’t people in this thread more worried about the sorry plight of heterosexual marriages? Instead of blaming the bishops, society, homosexuals, “elitist” states in the Northeast, and liberals in general ... isn’t it time we too greater stock in what we as heterosexuals have to do in order to get our own marriages put in better condition?

Mary M…yes, the church IS into ‘name calling’. “Objectively morally disordered”? That’s name callng. I’m not sure how you tell dead hero he’s objectively disordered, but the bishops seem to know how. And there were no ‘naked’ men. You folks who are homophobic seem to want to make things up. More evidence of your obsession, I suppose.

Steven, that is EMINENTLY practical and logical. We straights screwed up marriage. WE have to get OUR act together.

Bob,——Leave Catholicism out of it and tell us what God has to say concerning homosexual behavior?

Whose God? Zeus? And how do you know WHAT god has to say? You guys screwed up so many things in history, who knows WHAT ‘god says’. What does ‘god’ say about adulterers? Blasphemers? Chilcren who disobey their parents? Slaves? You ready to kill kids and bring back slavery because ‘god says’ those are good? Bet you don’t answer!

People p-l-e-a-s-e… get smart.

Engaging in conversation with anti-Catholics/gay activists (some obviously mentally challenged) in this ‘ineffective’ manner is simply foolhardy and totally fruitless. (Titus 3:9-11)

Please understand that they are VERY dedicated and have a very radical/militant agenda… so stop giving them a training forum to ‘pick-your-brains’ and spew all their venom and asinine nonsense.  These activist ‘trainees’ are just playing with you.

Ignore them… and move on!

Bob, there is only One True God. The One God known to Christians, Jews and Muslims. Try “meeting” God, Bob because He does love you and wants you to know Him. Pray that if He exisits that He would reveal Himself to you. Life is meaningless, Bob, without God and I frankly don’t know how you deal with it. The God that I know is Love Itself and calls me in right relationship with Him. Surrender and obedience brings nothing but pure joy into ones life. I’m sorry that you don’t understand that but it’s not too late if you seek Him out.
He knocks and waits for you to answer. You are His child.

Mary, tell you what. You go to any Muslim country (I’ve been to Malaysia) and tell the local Muslims believing in Jesus is the same as Allah. See what happens. In fact, Jerusalem is a center of conflict in the Middle East. If all relgions bring peace and are the same, why are Jews, Christians and Muslims killing each other? Your statement about meaningless lives shows how pathetic the mind of the believer is. Life is quite full for non believers. You’re too uneducated to understand that, living in your provincial theocentric world, but if you educate yourself, perhaps you’ll understand.

Ed, I wonder whether you have the capcity to apply to yourself the same standard you set for those of us who have contrary opinions. It is always a source of bemusement the rapidity of pejorative labels spewing from ‘orthodox Catholics’ on this site. That your opinion is disagreed with does not necessarily imply ‘anti-catholic’. That the church has been usurped by the Catholic hierarchy does not mean that we who dissent are not Catholic on your say so. It is all so easy for the lot of you to implore ‘mentally challenged’ on us, when any reading of these posts indicates otherwise…the most knowledged posts are not from the mindlessly obedient, who read only from nihil obstat, and thusly learn nothing.
Mary, you continually speak as if you know God, but that erroneous thought is determined by unGodlike intolerance coming from you.  Perhaps, a statement from Alexander Pope might help;  any God that I can understand is no God at all.  None of us know the mind of God, a few act as if they do…an indication identifying the few is the ‘self-righteous arrogance’ condemning those of us who do not fear to think, read and counsel ourselves.

@WPRjr….Alexander Pope whom you really misquote here suffered greatly for his Catholic faith. He lived at a time of extreme anti-Catholicism in England where no Catholics were allowed to live within 10 miles of London!His statement which you dis-abued here by implying he denied God’s existence was really intended to reflect the words of the psalmist who acknowledged the Greatness of God by declaring that the thoughts and ways of God were so far above man that He was unknowable to them. God is unknowable except through His Son, Jesus Christ and Scripture thru which He reveals Himself to us that we might know of His great love..and who we are in relationship to Him. Mary is speaking about her personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is what in all charity she is attempting to share with you…Please be not unmindful of the great gift she is offering you…and do not behave as “swine before pearls”...be at least a bit gracious for the offer. This is not arrogance on her part..but a bit of the Truth you refuse to recognize.

Only in this current century has the consideration of SSM laws occured and since 2001 10 countries and a handful of jurisdictions have started the legal proceedings for such…Sweden is among them, Denmark is not!
To understand what most of the commenters here have tried to express over this outrageous activity please read the following excerpt from today’s
blogspot “Beginning to Pray”: ( you can go to this blogspot to read the rest)  “..Marriage contains a spirituality primordially established by
God and redeemed by the blood of Christ..This sacred capacity cannot be
aped even if those who think we are but apes try to do so…such artifical attempts are merely different forms of fornication..and fornication always de-humaizes. It is a counterfeit of the real thing.”
To this I might add that the phrase PRIMORDIALLY ESTABLISHED means way before 2001 when men began to make themselves gods. It is not the Catholic hierarchy that has “usurped”....rather those who have taken it upon themselves to dissent from Truth ..and inserted their own form of it to advance justification for their lives of disorder.

Bob - Perhaps you are over overeducated. You leave no room for God to get into your heart. Maybe you are better educated than I am but I tell you what, I’ll take where I am as opposed to where you are any day of the weej. Your rants on this thread are pathetic and you really are to be pitied. You and those who think like you are self absorbed and shallow and I’m totally not impressed with your flawed education. What good is it if you don’t get the Truth. Sit in your ivory tower, Bob, and leave the rest of us alone. You have nothing in common with us and your only motivation is to challenge our beliefs and belittle us. This thread is not about you, Bob and going forward I refuse to repond to anyone who seems to get pleasure from mocking and degrading others. You call that being educated, Bob? I call it pompous and ill mannered. Good luck to you Bob and by the name I did pray for you at Mass today.

So long as the Federal Government is the single largest funding source for Catholic institutions in every diocese (ie hospitals, universities and colleges, charities of every sort, including those run regionally or nationally) the bishops will do nothing to jeapardize their cozy relationship with Catholic politicians whom they rely upon for so much operating revenue. Catholic politicians know this, of course, which is why they have such bold demeanors on the subject.

Mary, your provincialism is quite touching. It’s almost quaint to see someone with the view that they, and they alone, know all there is to know. They and they alone know God’s views. I hope you derive great pleasure in your delusions. You’re no different than any believer in a tribal religion who sits in a mud hut muttering incantations to appease imaginary gods. Good luck

Thirst, first, thanks for acknowledging the FACT that Sweden has had gay marriage for over a decade and NONE of your apocalyptic visions has coome true. Second you keep coming back to the argument that your RELIGION has the RIGHT to FORCE OTHERS to believe as you do. You can’t get over that. And it’s quite wrong. This is America, not Saudi Arabie. We don’t have a state religion here. If you go with the EVIDENCE, the FACT is gay marriage does NOT harm society. That is a LIE. Glad to see you admit it.

Marriage is unitive as well as proceative. Two homosexuals do not have the ability to procreate. The latest trend seems to be raising children as gender “neutral”. What the heck does that mean? Congratulations, now you as a parent will not only cofuse your child but do harm to society as well. Just another example of the breakdown of morality. More Bishops need to speak up.

The Catholic Church does not IMPOSE Truth on anyone…when it is PROPOSED
it is up to each individual to either accept or reject Truth. While the Church maintains and protects the Truth entrusted to it by Jesus Christ
it has also been instructed to do so in all charity and to leave the rest of it up to God. Where in the long ago past this was not done and errors were made in the name of the Lord those errors have been addressed and apologized for..something some here seem to have missed in their educational pursuits. Even a reading of the daily news during the time of Pope John Paul II would give one this information. The few people here on this post denigrating God and the Church He built carefully by preparing His people thru the ages are doing so from ignorance…what they erroneously have been told or taught is the Church.  It is obvious from their comments here these are people who continue to see history only through their own myopic and distorted sense of the real. Some people have learned to love to hate and vilify. God blesses them with graces they are too blind to grasp and too arrogant to acknowledge. It is far easier to cast aspersions and call the lie, truth, and those who preach truth, backward imbeciles. They only are the “enlightened”. Their wisdom coming from their own reflection which refuses to acknowledge the presence of their Creator. They have been taken captive by the Prince of this World who is also known as the Father of Lies. We must remember in all charity it is our duty to pray for them…and refute their evil spout wherever we find it. If one can only see gay marriage ( what an oxymoron that is) as not having made any impression or admit to the
tragic effects on the societies where it has been perpetuated they are apparently not tuned into reality. It is difficult to see in darkness the light.  And it shows when the only thing they have to offer are such idiocies as “We are not in Saudia Arabia” as if that explains anything. Or the one ” we don’t have a state religion”  which is totally debatable considering the fact that we are becoming more and more a nation where the mantra of the secular humanists gathers momentum and threatens to destroy the very fabric of this nation and society.
How about “the FACT that Sweden has had gay marriage for ten years and they are doing just fine ” shows total ignorance ( intentionally ) about what the lives of Christians is like there ...and the inroads of enforced socialism producing a national nightmare no American would want to live under. One does not need a road-map to show where SSM leads…just read the history of any past civilizations that ignored the God Who created the Universe and all that is in it leads…and you will get a clear picture of where WE may be headed. Twisting the truth and the words of
those trying to proclaim and protect it…bully tactics!

Mary…You are far, far from being provincial in your thinking. You are not only surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses from time past, many of whom gave their lives to protect the Truth of which you speak, but also those in the world today, the billions across the planet who form the “connective tissue uniting all of creation” in the one truth. To name afew of your fellows-in- thinking, past and present: William Shakespeare, Helaire Belloc, G.K. Chesterton, Billy Graham, CS Lewis, Dorothy Day, Placio Domingo, John F. Kennedy, Ricardo Montalban, Norma McCorvey, Malcom Muggeridge, HW Crocker III, JRR Tolkien, Blessed Mother Teresa, Christopher Dawson, Alec Guiness, Flannery O’Connor, Geoffrey Chaucer, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Graham Greene, Ernest Hemmingway, Joyce Kilmer, Jack Kerouac, Marshall McLuhan, Thomas Moore, Walker Percy, Katherine Anne Porter, Oscar Wilde,,Jules Verne, Dante Alighieri, Sigrid Undset, and one of my favorites,Honore de Balzac, notorious though he was who wrote,  “...Christianity and ESPECIALLY( my emphasis)Catholicism, being a complete repression of man’s depraved tendencies, is the GREATEST (again my emphasis)element in Social Order.”!  The list of names present and past grows too long for here..but you get the idea that you stand among the giants in human thought about the Real. This list is just a grain of sand on the enormous beach of those who accepted Christian thinking over the past 2000 years plus. Never let the tiny minds here that can only express the narrow mindedness of bigotry and add nothing of importance to truth allow you to forget who you are in the sight of the God of the Universe and all that is in it. We must feel only compassion and pity for those who fail to see themselves for who they really are…the greatest among God’s creations…who deny the rights as children of God to not only us but themselves as well, preferring only those feeble rights bestowed by men…disordered men.

Mary M —you surprise me since you are a leader of RCIA groups.  Allah, the (god of Islam) is not also the same God of Christians and Jews.  Allah is not the God of the Bible,—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Allah’s minions who follow the Koran think of you, Mary, as an infidel.  You must renounce Christ or be killed.  As for BOB who writes:  .......... “We don’t have a state religion here.  If you go with the EVIDENCE, the FACT is gay marriage does NOT harm society. That is a LIE.”  Yes, we do not have a state religion.  Christians do, however, have a right and an urgency to protect our nation, culture and society for us now and for generations to come.  BOB’s position that gay marriage does not harm society demonstrates both his poor education and ignores historical, biblical and archeological factual evidence.  As the plains of the Dead Sea waters have receded in the last 40 years, remains of firey sulfuric ash have exposed the civilization and region known as Sodom and Gomorrah.  The Bible states the evil of homosexual behavior was so great that sex was even demanded from the angels sent by the Lord to destroy the two cities.  The Bible says the homosexuals were so aggressive the angels had to blind all of them before raining destruction upon both cities.  BOB, if you think the Bible is a fairy tale, I refer you to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947.  The Scriptures written in the Torah then matches verse by verse of what the Bible reads today.  Frankly, I don’t care if you accept this information because Paul says in Romans “you have already been given over to a depraved mind.”  But know this.  Christianity and Judaism will never accept gay marriage.  Not now.  Not ever.  You hate the Bible and wish it driven totally out of society.  Why? —because it convicts you—and convicts all men of their sin.  You are too blind to see it also provides a way of salvation as well.

The rants of the secular humanists are being treated in this government as if it were a state religion while not declaring it as such…just as insidious as if it were in effect however!

ThirstforTruth, some of us like to chomp on steak, not marshmallow fluff.
If you had any respect for your ‘username’, you might realize that a ‘thirst for truth’ is entails seeking the truth where it ‘lies’ not where you et al wish to put it.

@jesuitcal…...do you mean I am not allowed to choose my own user name? For what it is worth “jesuitcal” can have a plethora of meanings also…shall I list them all? As for the “steak/marshmallow fluff” crack… rather off base! Of course I am sure you mean that “jesuitcal” refers to the “solidly enlightened” as in steak and “thirst” is about “weak and shallow thinking” as in the marshmallow fluff proclaimed by most here.  Well, I can only refer you back two posts ago where some of those “fluffers”, who would agree with me where real truth is found, are listed. Not that I put myself in their august company other than we belong to the same body of truth. By your definition and their example I would rather be a “fluffer” than a “nutter”! Enough of this low-level guerilla warfare…I thirst for the Lord..and His truth…not the opinions of a secularist like you seem to be. I know Whom I seek ..and where to find Him…in the fold of Catholic teachings. You are welcome
to accept those teachings…or reject them as apparently you do. The believers on this blog are not imposing on you this faith. No one can impose it on you even if one wished. This IS a Catholic website where the truth of faith is proclaimed. If you can’t accept that go elsewhere.

Mary, it’s irrelevant that gays can’t procreate. ALOT of people can’t. So what? Again, that is YOUR definition and you’re welcome to it. No one is forcing you to marry anyone you don’t want to. YOU are forcing OTHERS to live as YOU want merely because an ‘authority’ told you to do so. Ultimately it comes down to the fact you want the right to restrict others’ rights merely because of YOUR religion. FIne. Let’s have Shari’a and be done with it, OK? Why not? What’s the difference?

Thirst, you can’t have it both ways. FIRST you say politicians MUST impose the Church’s view on marriage on EVERYONE, THEN you say EVERYONE has the right to live their lives as they wish. Sorry, those 2 statements are in opposition to each other. Which is it? You say you have PROOF that gay marriage destroys society. That is a TESTABLE statement. Where is your proof? Because if you have none, that’s a LIE. Are you LYING? Are you a LIAR? Go ahead, post the proof, otherwise, stand accused of being a LIAR. Thirst, you call Sweden ‘socialist’? ANOTHER LIE Their economy is MORE COMPETITIVE than OURS is. So you’re just a liar who makes up stuff when his fanaticism is seen to be a LIE. Sorry, THirst. You destroyed your credibility with these LIES.

New Observer: You Catholics used to ‘defend society’ from Jews. How’d that work out? Gays are just your latest enemies. Once it was the Jews. Then it was slavery for blacks. Then it was denying women the right to vote. Now it’s Gays. Any chance you guys will learn from your mistakes and stop couching bigotry in the putrid language of ‘defending society’ since THAT view has ALWAYS failed?

Bob, all men are fallible.  All men are sinners.  And that includes every pope and Catholic clergy down through the centuries.  All men will ultimately answer to an authority for their lives.  Which authority will you be accountable to?

Me? I’m accountable to the law, to my friends, family, coworkers and those on whom I depend and who depend on me. I have no need of god to be my judge. Gays have their own judges. The Church is not entitled to be one of them UNLESS it is chosen by the people being judged. The Church has NO right to be an involuntary, unchosen judge for those who haven’t given it that authority

Mary..now you have seen it all here..revisionist history in black and white!!!! from the trolls that just cannot stay on message! Accordingly
in one fall swoop the RCC single-handedly created: slavery;  anti-Semitism (never mind that our Founder was Jewish); denial of women’s right to vote; homophobia etc. etc. etc. Most of them not only need a
cleansing course in history..but a remedial lesson in reading!
Talk about a pack of lies!!!  “It’s irrelevant that gays can’t reproduce”! NO, it is not!! Only for those who cannot understand the definition of marriage.. or biology. Married couples ( that is one man and one woman) who are biologically unable to reproduce have sadly some serious “plumbing” issues while gay couples can NEVER have children because they do not HAVE the necessary plumbing to begin with.  As for where this god-playing leads? Societies plagued by it? Evidence? Just look at the news once in awhile. Take Japan..where children as young as 1 yr of age are being forced to undergo sex change operations…to satisfiy parents who are not please with the gender of the child they produced! The evidence is all around us for eyes that are open. All part and parcel of the same ugly package of god-playing by those who no longer feel bound by the natural law or any other. I have never said that Catholic politicians must impose Catholic values on our government but they do have the same right to vote for laws that support Catholic values that secularists have that support humanist values. It is called integrity! when you behave according to your convictions. I have more respect for an atheist who votes his values than a Catholic who denies his. Catholic pols that call themselves Catholic cannot in good moral conscience promote measures that go against the natural law..and still call themselves Catholic. They can vote anyway they want..free will…but to continue to be a Catholic they must exhibit publically what the Church recognizes as moral law. That is what a true Catholic does!! He/she ACTS as one publically as well as privately. When they don’t the Bishops have the authority as well as moral mandate to call them out.. publically. This is not talking out of both sides of the mouth.It should be up to the electorate what kinds of basic laws are passed. All public employees are just that…persons employed by the public to do THEIR will…the will of those they perportedly represent.
Where that basic right is honored ( by referendum) SSM bills fail! the vast majority of people do not want this to become law of the land anymore than they wanted the disaster known as Roe v Wade.Aware of this, politicians favoring SSM,abortion, euthanasia etc abused this power given to them by the voters when they disenfranchise them.. as they did in
NYState when behind closed doors monetary deals were made where billionaire Bloomberg bucks were handed out to ensure the skullduggery that happened last week. I do not take being called a liar lightly.  My views are continuing to be distorted by those trolls who come on here only to purposely pervert the truth about the RCC! We know who you are by your bigotry and false and off the wall statements. Now for the finale ...
Sweden has the same type of government that England has..a constitutional monarchy…wherein socialist programs are ruining their society..read the newspapers to learn more about the disarray through-out Europe and the world. Don’t just take my word for it..and above all…Don’t rely on the trolls spouting their brand of lies here creating confusion and division.
Now we are realllly far off topic ...led by trolls once more! I for one will stop feeding them…it will be a relief to cease and disist the
urge. By now no one is really here but them anyway. Let them fight among themselves…the bob-troll, jesuitical, new observer et al Show!
They are too inept to figure out how to get their own blog-spot!As if anyone with half a brain would go there.  I quess we should be grateful for that! I apologize to all the good Christians here for my lack of charity and display of anger…but sometimes it becomes necessary to speak out forcibly. I am sorry if I have embarrassed or offended any of
you.

Bob, do you believe that God will ultimately be your judge for where you spend eternity?

Thirst, what a blatant LIAR you are! Shameful! Read the Edgar Mortara story to see how this child was STOLEN from his Jewish parents by police of the Papal States, authorized by Pope Pius IX. This was defended as necessary because the Jews were, according to “Il Cattolica”, Christ Killers. Catholic history is replete with slaughter after slaughter of Jews authorized by Popes. Have you NO shame? NO sense of DECENCY? YOU may think it relevant that married couples need to reproduce but that is YOUR BUSINESS unless you want ME to take over YOUR life! And Sweden? You’re a LIAR! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/09/worlds-most-competitive-e_n_710962.html#s137026&title=Canada

Sweden’s economy is MORE competive than OURS! LEARN, my good friend; don’t LIE.

New Observer, no, I do not.

Thirst,—- the record is clear that it is you who are among the chief responders to the challenges put forth by “bob.”  Now that you are frustrated, (which is probably bob’s goal anyway), you want to criticize others who have engaged him.  So be it.  Let’s ignore “bob” and concentrate again on why our bishops are never serious.

One long helluva thread, indeed. Time for all of to re-read the Sermon on the Mount. Seriously, folks.

@New Observer - “Mary M —you surprise me since you are a leader of RCIA groups.  Allah, the (god of Islam) is not also the same God of Christians and Jews.  Allah is not the God of the Bible,—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Allah’s minions who follow the Koran think of you, Mary, as an infidel.  You must renounce Christ or be killed.” Since I didn’t mention I was a parish leader of RCIA New Observer you obviously remember me from a prior subject. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are monothestic religions. We believe in One God. I draw your attention to the following from the Catechsim of the Catholic Church (841) The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

@Thirst - Thank you for your very kind words. Bob knows nothing about me and his deperate patronizing comments don’t bother me. I know who I am, thank God.
I guess Bob doesn’t think he will ever answer to God. I always like to tell people who think like this that if I’m wrong at least I know I have tried to live a decent life but if he’s wrong, it could have eternal consequences that we don’t even want to think about. It’s very sad to see anyone so angry. I seem to remember “aruguing” with Bob once before on the same topic. Intereting!

Mary, you, of course, with your arrogant, patronizing comments have the beam in your own eye, to coin a phrase. You’re using Pascal’s wager…a dishonest position since it eliminates integrity. I think you honestly believe the stuff you say, but you’re still uneducated if you think that only theists can have meaningful lives. That leads to denigration of human dignity. It’s a shameful position to have.

Mary, you want to draw my attention to the Catechism (841).  Islam rejects the idea of Jesus, the Christ, as the Son of God.  Satan also believes in one God.  We know where he and his legions are going.  May I draw your attention, Mary, to the gospel of Jesus who said “No man comes to the Father but by me.”  We do not worship the same God.  Jesus said only He is the the door, the Way.  There is no other way to the the Father but through Him alone.  To think accepting Islam and Allah is a pathway to heaven, then you are living under deception and in violation of the first Commandment given to Moses.

Damnant quod non intellegunt

@New Observer - I’m not going to argue with you about Islam. The Catechsim clearly states the Catholic position on Islam and it’s relationship to Christianity. I am Catholic and so that is my position as well.

I agree. They need spine implants. Healthy doses of gumption/hudspa. They need to wake up to the fact that standing firm is being loving and caring. Being wishy washy only jeporadizes souls.

Mary M. —In your final hour, will you hold fast to the gospel,—the direct words of Christ, or will you reach for your copy of the Catechism?

New Observer - In my hour of death I pray that I will be in a state of grace fully prepared to meet Jesus face to face.

God is mystery. God transcends an intellecutal understanding. Faith is a gift. Until we open ourselves up to receive God’s invitation we remain “locked” in our own limited understanding of who God is. God will not force Himself on anyone. Through our free will be make the choice to let Him in or not. If we let Him in He can and He will do things in our life that we could never have imagined. My husband was at one time Jewish. This month he was ordained a Deacon. Through absolutely no pressure from me, he chose to let God in and today he is a man who loves Jesus with his entire heart. This is why I am so passionate about this subject, I want everyone to know God.

Yes indeed, God is a ‘mystery’ and all those who think otherwise are hoodwinked.  Today we all give credence to our nation’s blessings. Our nation was founded upon a rite of rebelliousness against totalitarianism and all who wish to subjugate us to its authority.  Today that spirit continues to live on, spirited once again against harshness of hierarchs and its parrots. The fight is against those who do not believe in ‘liberty for all’, and suppressed by a group acting out in accordance with an unloving determined will. We give thanks to Mass., N.Y. et al, who refuse to cave and cower before the self-proclaimed righteousness of the Roman church and others like it. Liberty must prevail so that all its citizens bask in the same God endowed inalienable rights and may no religious superstitions prevail against it.

http://www.speroforum.com/a/56468/Homosexual-Ideology-Satanic-Pride

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Chastity/Chastity_014.htm

@WPRjr: What exactly do you mean by a “rite of rebelliousness against totalitarianism…” when in fact Great Britain was then a constitutional monarchy, with Parliament as the supreme power for the Empire? However flawed our legal/political relationship and ties were with the home country, British American colonists were hardly subjected to the kinds of government we see today and have witnessed in the 20th century (in particular, beginning with the Soviet Union.)
  Parliament and the home office, plus the King, who was terribly ill-served by haughty bumbling advisors, never pulled on the colonists what real totalitarians have pulled since the fall of Russia’s Kerensky interregnum government during WWI.
  In fact, though the King dismissed the colonists attempts to rectify the ill effects the various schemes Parliament and George III employed to raise taxes to pay for the debts resulting from the military successes of the British Army during the French & Indian Wars, upon submitting the “Olive Branch Petition” ... none of our delegates were clamped in irons and hauled off to the Tower.
  Britain had legitimate reasons for raising taxes. After all, the majority of soldiers fighting the war, started by no less than a relatively inexperienced colonial militia officer from Virginia, George Washington, were British Army regulars. Britain had also just fought an expensive civil religious war against the Scottish Pretender “Bonnie Prince Charles” Stuart during the 1740s, while also fighting one of the earlier (series of several “French & Indian Wars”.)
  Not only did Great Britain gain an enormous empire at France’s great loss of Quebec and Maritime provinces, but the Empire also created a huge buffer of security for the colonists whose lives were constantly in risk of French instigated Indian raids. (Outsourcing has a much longer history than what we’re complaining about today.)
  I’m by no means an apologist for the British Empire, given my Irish Catholic ancestry and knowledge of what the Brits no doubt did to some of my ancestors in County Mayo during the Great Hunger. Forced starvation is a very effective equal opportunity killer. That shared, however, we have to be fair when we look back at the circumstances which led to the break. Not all Jefferson’s list “. . . of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States” were based on purely objective grounds; most notably of interest to Catholic readers of this thread, his attack on French-Speaking Canadian Catholics in PQ.
  Jefferson, possessing a gifted mind, had to be aware that the arrangement made by London which allowed the Quebecois Catholics to continue practicing their Catholic faith was a wise strategic move to accommodate the newly conquered French-speaking and predominately Catholic Quebecois population, thus preventing any future uprising necessitating the sending of troops back to North America.
  Notwithstanding the patriotic contributions of the Carrolls, never forget that anti-Catholicism was a strong motivating reason for the English colonists of Britain’s colonies from New England southwards ... and it certainly provided a great deal of motivation for the soldiers who took part in Benedict Arnold’s ill-fated invasion of Quebec in one of the most disengenously contrived invasions we’ve undertaken ... well short of that recent one in Iraq. It took the wiser of the two Adamses, John, who had by then come to a much more open appreciation and friendship with Catholics, than his more bombastic and virulently anti-Catholic cousin Sam, to make sure Charles Carroll went along the expedition.
  Jefferson, on the whole, as were the vast majority of the delegates who participated in the vote for Independence, certainly had the best intentions and was working on a tight schedule (i.e. fears of a British landing in Philadelphia any day) and no doubt did what most of us would’ve done in similar straits. Being the lawyer he was, he “beefed up” the case. Well, regardless whether or not all the facts were correct, it worked. But I felt compelled to straighten this misconception out. National pride must never give way to accepting as gospel in the convenient myths as talking points no matter when they were written.
  The biggest and most legitimate objection to the way Parliament and King George III treated the colonies was our lack of any representation in Parliament, not to mention any willingness by London, to give the objection serious consideration, notwithstanding the sympathies of Edmund Burke and eventually William Wilberforce on behalf of our cause. And, when British regulars went on the attack against their own citizens, as they say ... all bets were off.
  As for your comments about liberty insofar as they pertain to the gay marriage issue of our time is concerned; you’re coming up short again. Sadly your unmitigated anti-Catholicism screams through the holes in your arguments, however. After all, how much consideration of “religious liberty” was accorded to any Catholics in New England during the Revolution? Officers and seamen of the French Navy which helped seal Lord Cornwallis’ fate at Yorktown received an addiional layer of frost from Boston’s Yankee Puritans when it docked in the harbor during Christmas one year. Going to Mass on shore! Mon Dieu, what a crazy notion given the Puritan Yankees’ selective concept of protecting religious liberties. Hmmm, come to think of it, they bear a strong resemblance to, to, to ... Mon Dieu! again ... yours!
  Please remember: the same “inalienable rights” you claim for yourself and your fellow anti-Catholics to hold a beef or two against the Catholic Church and its members’ “religious superstitions” can be applied just as well in defense of our rights to worship God as we see fit and our Lord instructed us 2,000 years ago, and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and our Magisterium, this very Independence Day as well.
  We’re aware of our standing as the largest religious body in the land. But we’re also keenly aware of how many non-Catholics we share this wonderful nation with. C’mon, you really don’t think it’s too much to ask if you—and some of the (thankfully very small. but all too loudly over-represented and more obnoxious portion)of the more virulent anti-Catholics among our population of 300,000,000+plus Americans—would kindly learn to accept that the term you endearingly referred to (“inalienable rights”) applies to us as well? Even for just this one day, for which millions and millions of Catholic men and women freely gave their all so all men and women could enjoy “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”?
  As a child, I’d been to Dachau, went behind the Iron Curtain/Berlin Wall twice in the early Sixties, visited battlelfields and monuments throughout our nation and in Europe. I’ve seen what prejudice did to a whole race of people in the South and in Boston when I worked for the very same Federal District Court in Boston during the Busing Crisis and saw what happened to a black lawyer, Ted Landsman, whose face was bashed in by a bigot using an American flag mounted on a flagpole with a brass globe at the top ... which the attacker used as a weapon against Landsman, who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
  When I read your attacks on the Catholic Church and your disgraceful use of old lies (“religious superstitions”)in such manner only Cromwell, Sam Adams and Josef Stalin would smilingly approve of ... and especially your not so sly attempt to link our Church with our previous British colonial government, with the gratituitous use of Jefferson’s deliberately and politically/tactfully overblown rhetoric for use in a document to build a case for severing ties, (an act of treason then) from most powerful governmental body in the world, the British Empire ... I simply could not let your bigoted comments go unchallenged.
  Good Lord, have the most radical feminists teaching history in our Seven Sisters Colleges teamed up with Jack Chick lately and failed to announce this momentous, albeit of dubious motives, linkage?

Steven, you certainly are a self-inflated Grand Panjandrum.  Not once in your long winded diatribe even attempt to stay on topic addressing the issue of the Roman church’s war on American citizens attempting to use its right to marry. Nay you choose to run off on a word “totalitarianism” by finding worse regimes and examples in history. Poor soul that you are, conjuring other abuses suffered by Catholics making its present bigotry against gays justified. Perhaps, if the word “subjugation” were entered instead; you still would not have been deterred in your monstrous effort to circumnavigate the present dismay of the church and its mindlessly obedient defenders here in its attempts to subjugate an entire population. A population whose only desire is to partake of its rights to express love in marriage and reap its benefits and rewards.  If I wanted to take a journey through history I would be doing it elsewhere. Here the main thrust is the church’s attempt, contrary to most Americans beliefs, to prohibit gays from marrying and vilifying the lot of them. Now if your lonliness of desire mandates you to continue to address grievances orchestrated to Catholics it belongs under another thread. Many have suffered, and none of those sufferings is germane to the present unGodlike retrubution of the likes of Archbishop Dolan et al.

To anyone who has eyes to read and ears to hear the entire population of this country does NOT want legalized sodomy…otherwise known as SameSex Marriage! ( gotta love oxymorons!!) In the 31 states where the population
was allowed to vote their opinion those measures were TROUNCED meaning they overwhelmingly failed! The few places where sodomy has been given the status of marriage is where the law only passed through bribery of legislatures…as in NYState where billionaire Bloomberg bucks worked. A
legislator from Monroe Co., who continues to call himself Catholic was the necessary 32nd vote needed. Afew others also crossed when bribed also behind closed doors. It was hardly a rout though: 32/29 ! So to comment here that the VAST majority of the population is in favor of SSM is just more of the same under-handedness they use to vilify the Church. The point of this article is: should his bishop as well as all bishops use more stringent means when addressing renegade CATHOLICS! who use their political power to go against the natural law as promoted by the Church
(which they can do..NO ONE, not even God, removes the pols free will)Can the pol continue to be in communion with the Body of Christ, the Church, since he/she has broken Church law PUBLICALLY? Those here who do not understand Church law and its limits are insisting the Church is
trying to IMPOSE laws on the nation showing they know even less how laws are passed in this country. It is never a good idea to argue from the point of ignorance! ( as anyone in law school quickly learns and never forgets)Today would be a good day for some here to review that information. The RCC is not the only body fighting the destruction of traditional marrage but it seems to be the favorite whipping boy of the trolls commenting here who just will not give up trashing the Church… it being their raison d’etre! It is their right but they should know they are not convincing changing any minds with the vitriole and venomous lies.  Archbishop Dolan, et al, has no power of retribution outside the church. Nor does he seek it! What he does have is the right(no matter how many old lies are raised here) to exercise his God given authority within the confines of his diocese.
He has no power outside the church to impose anything on anyone. By the way, The Holy Roman Empire is long gone (just to catch
afew of you up to speed historically speaking). And so is the Inquisition,
the Crusade era, Torquemada, etc. which of course are continuously brought up by the trolls who really have nothing else to defend their position. They don’t want to get involved in the real history of marriage and its over 200 yrs of tradition because it does not aide and abet their agenda. It is easier to keep spreading the lies about the Church hoping that if they say it often enough on enough Catholic websites people will start to believe it! How droll, troll! Truth always outs in the end even
if it takes awhile!

Thirst is correct.  Civil unions are already allowed legally.  Marriage (by definition) is a religious bond between a man and a woman which cannot be co-opted.  Christians will never accept same sex marriage.  Not now. Not ever.  It is unbiblical.

New Observer you are incorrect. If marriage was RELIGIOUS ONLY then you wouldn’t need a marriage license. You don’t need a license to take the Eucharist. You don’t speak for all Christians, so perhaps should re-examine your assumptions. And the appeal to the bible is moot. The bible approves of slavery, mass murder (the book of Joshua), killing of blasphemers, etc. Your view is a cafeteria view of the bible

Thirst, you are incorrect. Polls show that for the first time in history, a majority approves of SSM. Sodomy is already legal, and it’s practiced by about 40% of MARRIED couples. You going to regulate THEIR sex lives as well? Your obsession with the sex lives of people, which are none of your business, is notable for its neuroticism. We need LESS govt, not MORE. Govt intrusion into private sex lives is ridiculous.

@WRPjr: Sorry that you see me as a “self-inflated Grand Panjandrum.” Oh well and a few sighs to boot. Perhaps I just take history too seriously to let it be manipulated and mangled by ideologues for their selfish pleasures, especially when they’re clueless about the subjects they so dearly love to pontificate on.
  Admittedly, I can be tedious, pompous, etc. (I’ll let you fill in the rest to suit your pleasure concerning the “etcs”. How’s that? Fair enough?)
  In the meantime, in my defense, allow me to say that I only take so long at times because some replies and posts contain some real whoppers, such as yours concerning the Declaration of Independence. I take my time and might appear to be overly plodding and slow to get my point across.
  For some folks, it’s the only way to untangle a lot of mistakes. You certainly fit into that crowd, along with Sara Palin and Marilyn Bachmann. Some distinct company you keep. Happy Independence Day!

God’s law supercedes all law made by any government or peoples. Whether anyone chooses to believe that or not does not change that it is the Truth. Truth is NOT SUBJECTIVE - IT IS OBJECTIVE. THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH IS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY ACTIVITY IS SINFUL BEFORE THE EYES OF GOD. If you don’t believe in God or “my God” doesn’t change the Truth. The United States is still One Nation Under God. We are a Nation formed in Judeo-Christian moral principles despite the homosexual activitsts who want more than anything to change that. We are not one Nation under “anything goes”. Thank God most Americans believe that and the majority of Americans identify themselves as Christian. Christmas is a Federal holiday which speaks to our Christian identity.

bob,  You have already said you are not accountable to the Lord.  That is a serious sin of pride which God Himself says he hates.  Romans tells us you have already been given over to a depraved mind and that things of the Spirit are not discernible to a perishing man.  That’s you, bob.  You hate God’s word, the Bible —because when you read it your sins are exposed and revealed back to you.  However, there is still time to repent and come to Lord and be saved —unless you run out of time.  I pray you will reconsider because at the end of your life you will not be able to plead ignorance and that no one ever told you the truth of the gospel.  This message may be the only warning you will ever receive.  Think about it.

@ ED: Thanks for the web-site references given above…to Spero Forum and the Real Presence. Both excellent! Commenters here would do well to take the time to read both articles…on Homosexual Ideology as well as the reasons for why the Catholic Church as well as other Christian and Judaic denominations take the position they do on marriage and this abomination called Same Sex Marriage. Thanks for bringing light into what is getting to be a very dark place here. I might think the Administrator of this website might at this time get involved and shut this down…for all the obvious reasons. Again, thanks!

Mary M…you have this delusion we’re a nation under God. You’re wrong. There is not a single mention of God in the text of the Constitution. I’m not sure how much more delusional you have to be to think we’re a nation ‘under God’ and that somehow you have the right to interfere with others sex lives but, you’re wrong.

New Observer. I am not accountable to the ‘Lord’ any more than I’m ‘accountable’ to Santy Claus. You have your God and you’re welcome to it. American law doesn’t mention god so your view of god is totally irrelevant. I know the bible. You don’t so I suggest you READ it before you try and cherrypick what you THINK it says

The institution of marriage is older than any formal government..but the government’s actual involvment legitimizes the union and its offspring, protecting and preserving the integrity of family. The family as an institution gets its authority from God and it is to the benefit of all members of society to acknowledge this whether believers or otherwise. Psychology ( if not common sense )tells us that for chldren who live in this environment with their mom (female) and their dad(male) who love and respect each other and honor their committment is the healthiest and safest way for offspring to grow and thrive. It is also mostly true that people who remain committed to one another in marriage are on the balance happier ...and healthier..especially married men. Those who wish to change the centuries old laws and definitions of traditional marriage might make note of this proven fact for their own benefit as well as the rest of society if they care at all for society. SSM, based upon denial upon denial, is an un-natural and most debased attempt to defy nature’s laws.
It is a counterfeit arrangement that attempts to legalize what all civilized societies in past times called sinful and criminal because they recognized good and evil exists and has consequences. Nature abhors not only vaccums but ignorance and will demand when defied, retribution of a most exacting kind. We see it happening already in the growing epidemics of aids, STD’s among all populations, especially the young, millions upon millions of abortions and world-wide nations with zero population growth resulting in fewer workers, less government revenue and enormous growth in instability among a less secure peoples than at any other time in history. More anti-depressants are consumed by greater numbers as rates of alcoholism increase steadily. High rates of divorce further contribute to destabilize our family life making it very un-likely that today’s youth will grown up in a home where their parents’ marriage will remain intact! And to this morass we want to add another nail in the coffin of the family by legalizing SSM? Just look at the gay parades being held around the world this last month, especially that which took place last week in Rome, Italy, purposely organized to flaunt such deviency near the Holy City. Are these the crazies that we want to give parental authority and entrust the raising of the coming generations by legitimizing SSM? Civil unions already exist protecting those gay couples who live quietly and respect their private lives as private. In the way of normalcy with the protection all citizens have a right to expect from government. Surely these monsters parading around half-naked performing unspeakable acts of depravity on public streets in the name of pride must make them also shiver in shame for what is happening to the concept of acceptable moral and decent behaviour. Passage of SSM laws must be stopped. Not only by the Bishops of the Church from the pulpit to their voting congregations but by all people of decency everywhere and of all sexual stripes who want to take back from these usurpers all that is good and decent in our lives before the human race perishes from wanton excesses
and the depravities of evil minds.

As for this Nation and God? Those who insist this is not a Nation placed under the protection of His Authority would do well this day we celebrate our independence, not from God, but from those who would oppress us, to read the Declaration of Independence, most especially its Preamble. This document as well as our Constitution form the foundation of all our laws.
That the mention of God does not actually appear in the words of the Constitution does not change that as the undelying theme is there and was understood by all who drew it up..As a nation we have always recognized that principle on which all decent societies have thrived while those who did not succumbed eventually to its own ignorance of these basic truths.

bob:  I refer you to the Declaration of Independence issued July 4, 1776.  The signatories wrote and signed:  “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator . . . ”  Creator is aka ... God.  You, bob, are accountable unto the Lord for your life.  Now that you have heard the truth —the truth of God’s eternal word,  Paul warns in Romans:  “You (bob) are without excuse.”  I cherry pick nothing, bob, I have referenced passages of warning which apply to people of your pride.  Is it not ironic that homosexuals call their parades “PRIDE” —the sin which God testifies He hates.  “They have been given over to their lust and are of a depraved mind.”  Supporters of homosexual marriage are like Pharaoh —prideful.  Both he and Egypt were destroyed on that day and never again has Egypt,—once the most powerful nation on earth, ever regained any prominence upon the earth.  Christians will not accept same sex marriage regardless of magistrates or courts.  When Peter was brought before the Temple leaders and ordered not to preach the gospel of Jesus, the Christ, he responded:  “We must obey God rather than men.”  So, bob, you will not influence our children and future generations.  Not now.  Not ever.  Sodomy is an abomination before the eyes of the Lord.  You say you know the Bible, but you have rejected the truth.  You have rejected Christ who reveals Himself as Truth.  You have rejected Him in His eternal Word.  Sadly, you have rejected Jesus as your only means of salvation.  You are inviting His judgment upon you which Revelation says will be in the Lake of Fire from which there is no escape.  Repent now and come to the Lord, bob,—while you still have time.

New Observer: I refer you to the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES which is LAW. See that word? LAW. LAW. Learn it, study it. I don’t care what you believe about God. The Founding Fathers knew about theocrats like you which is why GOD IS NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION. Spin it any way you want. Gyrate. Whirl. Dance and jump. GOD IS NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION. Supporters of theocracy like you are like whitewashed tombs. Beautiful on the outside but inside filled with corruption and dead men’s bones.

Despite Bob’s denial of our Nation being under God, throughout the formation of this great Nation God was ever present in the minds and hearts of our founding fathers and mothers. Here’s a link showing one of our first coins - Bob should note - “E Pluribus Unum”
http://www.coinlink.com/News/images/usmint_braille_prototype.jpg

John and Abigail Adams wrote many letters to each other since he was away traveling. On June 18, 1775, in the midst of the conflict with Britain, Abigail Adams writes to her husband John:

“The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people.  Trust in Him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us.  Abigail Adams.”

John Adams was eloquent on his deep belief that our relationship with God was of utmost importance if we were to keep this Constitutional Republic.“Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God… What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be.” John Adams

Bob can pontificate all he wants. He knows he’s wrong, he’s just interested in pushing his own agenda.

Mary, I suggest that, instead of reading coins, tea leaves or anything else, you read the LAW. Our LAW is that we are NOT a nation ‘under god’. Abigail Adams is not the Constitution. Adams was in Europe when the Constitution was drafted. You need to learn more LAW, more HISTORY and less FICTION. When Mary can show me WHERE in the CONSTITUTION it says we’re under god THEN she’ll have an argument. Until then she can fiddle with all the coins she wants. Gays have rights including the right to MARRY and NO imagined theocratic argument can take that away.

Bob - I don’t read tea leaves - they are against the Third Commandment.

I notice you didn’t comment on what John Adams had to say about the Bible and the Constitutional Republic. I guess you missed that,huh.

Marriage is a privilege and not a right. I repeat, marriage is procreative as well as unitive. Homosexuals do not meet this criteria.

Since you are such a history buff, do you really, really believe the founding fathers would have supported same sex “marriage”? Bob, you know as well as I do that is preposterous.

Stop already with the gay rights activism. Why don’t you take it somewhere where your distored views will be welcomed. What are you doing here anyway? Do you just like blowing off steam? Does it make you feel better to pontificate? It’s just a waste of your time and everyone else’s time. You’re not going to get anywhere with “us”, Bob. We don’t support your views and we never will.

Mary, read my response above, since I did, indeed, address your issue. You’re wrong. Adams was in Europe when the Constitution was written. He had no role in its creation so your work of fiction continues to unravel. As to ‘same sex’ marriage and the founders, they approved of slavery, so their morals were not perfect (unless, of course, you approve of slavery!) And stop with the gay oppression activism. It’s a disgrace. I don’t support your bigoted views and never will.

Mary M., I recall a conversation I once had with a ‘fundamentalist Christian’, fully knowing that he believed in the ‘inerrancy’ of the Bible from the very first word to the last. I asked him what it would take, what manner of proof would you need to realize that evolution is a fact, that the world is not six thousand years old, or that Adam and Eve did not exist. His answer was nothing whatsoever.  So, it is with you Mary, and the dwindling numbers of orthodox Catholics, who bury their head in the sand, blind to the scientific world.
Often Mary you speak of ‘scripture’.  Do you know anything about its assembly. That when Paul addresses the ‘breath of God’ into scripture that it is divinely inspired, he speaks only of the Hebrew Bible since there was no New Testament written then.  Four centuries passed and XTians had no Bible.  Athanasius in 367 determined the 27 books which are now Canon. The Pope Damusus commissioned Jerome to translate the Bible, and Jerome died in 420, the fifth century, Jerome’s Bible, the Vulgate, in Latin…it was
twenty inches high and nearly as wide.  The oldest copy dates to around the 8th century.  Those early volumes of Jerome varied one from another.  At the end of the second century there were nearly fifty gospels floating arout.  Who was to decided which were canon;  men did.  The Bible is totally a human instrument, filled with contradictions;  yet many here like to address the gospel as gospel, when it manifests all the imperfections that we as people do.
Finally Mary, marriage is indeed a right and not a privilege. Secondly, E Pluribus Unum is ‘from many one’...that statement gives recognition to this great land of diversity, that we do indeed except our differences, and despite them are one.  You Mary are in defiance of the very platitude you cite. You refuse to acknowledge the right of gay/lesbian to conduct their affairs as they see fit. Stay forever within the confines of your religion, as you stray from it, you tread on the rights of others.

Looks like we’re finally advancing from the days of knickers n’ tricornered hats, wigs up to the Cold War when “under God” seemed to have been retroactively scribbled on to the original Constitution’s vellum, or whatever they used. Mmmm, mmmmm, mmmm, I’ll bet those guys working in the Interior Department must’ve been mighty upset and said a few things that ... OMG ... might not have been only offensive to God, but perhaps
“unconstitutional” as well. And boy, have I uttered many of those words while reading some of these posts and working in my woodshop.

Jesutical - I’m not a fundamentalist Christian, I’m Catholic and our take on Scripture is a bit different. First of all, Catholicism is a faith of Scripture, Tradition and Magisterial teaching (the Pope in unison with the Bishops). Catholicism is not opposed to evolution per se so long as we acknowledge that God is the Creator of life.

Catholicsm is also not opposed to science. Scripture is not a history book and it should not be read as one. One needs to have an understanding of who wrote a particular book and to whom it was written. Scripture also needs to be read in its entirety. Bible passages should not be quoted independently which distorts the message. The Bible is a “story” of God’s love and mercy for His people. Paul (once Saul - a Jew) took his message to the Gentiles after his conversion on the road to Damascus when he heard the voice of Jesus ask him why he was persecuting him. The Catholic Church began on Pentecost Sunday when the disciples received the Holy Spirit.

Actually, orthodox Catholics are growing and the Catholic Church is growing in leaps and bounds especially in Africa. Men entering the seminary these days tend to be very orthodox in their faith as opposed to men who entered the seminary decades ago. Traditioanl religious orders for women are also flourishing.

You’re right about not having the written form of the New Testament during the first few centuries of Christianity. That’s where Catholicism’s tradition comes in. It was the Catholic Church who decided which books were the inspired word of God and discarded the “Gospels” that were heretical.

Gays and lesbians can do whatever they wish; just don’t change the definition of marriage and don’t tell me it is acceptable because it is not! If you don’t want to believe in God or God’s laws that is your business but don’t stop me or anyone else who believes that your views are fundamenttaly wrong and a detriment to society. Diversity used to mean at one time individuals who come from different ethnicities but the gay activists have now adopted it as their own slogan.

We live in a democracy and you have a right to fight for what you believe in and so do I. You my friend, are posting on an orthodox Catholic blog pontificating about gay rights.  Why here?  What do you hope to prove? You are not going to ever convince any of us that the homosexual lifestyle is acceptable. We follow God’s law and we answer to God and we want to preserve this Nation as a Nation under God not godlessness. I am not treading on your rights; I am defending the rights of people who do not agree with your philosophy and those like you who are attemtping to force same sex “marriage” on the masses. Don’t tread on my rights to disagree! 

In the end, I know who wins whether it is tomorrow, next week, next year or in the next century. It is God who wins and I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who is so self absorbed that they make no place for God. This decision to abandon God has eternal consequences and this is not God’s choice but your own.

bob:  You can scream the word “law” as much as you want.  God’s law supersedes any man-made law.  Followers of Christ will not accept homosexual marriage even if the Supreme Court rules it legal.  Not now.  Not ever.  I am satisfied you have been told the Truth —the truth of the gospel and that you and those who advocate your wishes have been given over to the lust of your flesh.  You think you are battling simply the Pope and orthodox Catholics and Chrisitans?  You are mocking God as well.  You have proven Paul correct that your conscience is seared.  His judgment has already been visited upon Sodomites.  You have failed to learn from history.  It is interesting that you say you know the Bible along with your friend Jesuitical.  If both of you do, then you also know (1 Corinthians 18:)  “For the word of God is foolishness to a perishing man.”  It appears God has already placed you on the shelf.  Christians and Catholics alike are under no biblical requirement to further persuade you otherwise after testifying truth to you.  Jesus Himself stated we are not to cast our pearls before swine (Jesus was referring to you, bob, as swine) —and that we should “shake the dust from our feet” and move on.  “You are of your father, the devil who was a liar from the beginning.”  I won’t bother noting the passage references since you already know the Bible . . . but have rejected the eternal Word of God in favor of your own sensual lust of the flesh.

Mary, I love the contradictions and paradoxes in your post. You don’t want to be told what to believe but you want the right to tell others EXACTLY THAT. The irony is unbelieveable! I believe YOUR values are fundamentally wrong and a detriment to society. Do I have the right to stop you from marrying? Should I? Why not? America is not ‘under god’ regardles of your fictionaly mythology. No one is forcing same sex marriage on anyone. What planet do you live on? Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to marry another woman? THAT would be forcing you to accept gay marriage. Your bizarre, warped use of language merely shows how empty your argument is.

New Observer: You can scream GOD all you want but Constitutional law supercedes your god law. There is no ‘god’ in American law. None. He’s never mentioned. If you live in Saudi Arabia, then you DO have god in the law. Not in THIS country! Blather on all you want about how freedom means hating god. Andrew Wilfahrt DIED defending this country and he was GAY. Your cafeteria view of the bible is laughable! You know NOTHING of the bible at all. You cherry pick then pretend you know what it says. Amazingly ignorant.

Mary M. —You are too kind to these interlopers.  St. Paul has already identified both of them in Romans as having a depraved mind (or seared conscience).  They have been warned it is a dangerous thing for an unrepentent man to fall into the hands of a Holy God.

bob:  Everyone will have eternal life.  The question is where will you spend it?  You have made your choice.

Bob,  Time and time again, I have told you that you are free to believe what you wish; just don’t force me to accept homosexual “marriage” as the equivalent of heterosexual marriage. By insisting that it become law since you claim it is a right, you are forcing me to accept it. Please let’s not kid ourselves. The gay activist agenda is not just about law but acceptance! I resent that and I will never ever accept it regardless of any law that is passed and there are enough people who think as I do.

Your rants about me and the Catholic Church being bigots is really falling on deaf ears. Why don’t you leave the Catholic Church alone? The Catholic Church follows the law of God. She is not changing, ever (thank God!). If you want to live in a godless world that’s your choice but don’t attack me or “my church” and accuse us of bigotry.

Mary there was no Catholic church at Pentecost.  In fact the church as we now know it was not truly representative until Pope Leo.  The early Xtians following Pentecost were a Jewish sect of Xtians.  When these Xtians were unable to convert the Jews the church became increasingly gentile into the second century.  The Essenes, greatly similar to the early Jewish Xtian sect differed only by not allowing gentile converts…that refusal probably led to its disappearance.  This might surprise you and overwhelm you if you quested for the truth;  Peter was never pope. The early church was led by James, the just, or righteous. He contrary to your indoctrination was Jesus’s brother. James and Paul feuded, continually, and there were as many factions of Xtianity then as there are now. It is imperative to know the socio-cultural-economic flow of the times.  Most were illiterate, only the highest of upper classes could read and some of their slaves. What also is important that many of the books of the Bible are in dispute as pseudepigrapha or false writings from forgery.  Five or six of Paul’s thirteen letters of the Bible are considered by scholars as written by another. We do not know for sure who wrote any book of the Bible.  We do know that the apostles did not;  they were illiterate and spoke only Aramaic.  The New Testament was written in fluent Greek. The same is true of the Hebrew Bible.  Moses did not write the Pentateuch.

Jesustical - I am really trying to be Christian about this - but you are so out of your mind that I will not even respond.

I do notice though that you have a problem with spelling out Christian. Does it offend your senses so much? Yes I do know what “X” stands for; its the same as those who insist on wishing others a Merry Xmas.

The Catholic Church is the True Church of Jesus Christ. May He be praised now and forever and may He be with the Church until the end of time just as he promised!

Mary M.  You can rest having done your best.  Employ Proverbs 26:4 “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.” —which means, . . . don’t persist in arguing with an idiot.

Mary…the term “Xtian” was invented by 4th century Greek Christians. No one is forcing you to accept anything. You’re free to be as bigoted, meanspirited and hateful as you wish. But, as someone once said, your right to swing your arm stops at my nose. Your bizarre beliefs about gays have no place in a modern democracy. Perhaps if this were 14th century Spain where being gay or being Jewish were equally reprehensible, your position would make sense. But you have no inherent right to deny others their rights. Why don’t I leave the ‘church alone’? Why doesn’t the church leave gays alone? Are you really that dense you can’t see the symmetry?

Have any of you noticed that these cretans trolling here are almost always on the same websites? If they were to go to a truly Catholic website such as First Things and others (sorry Pat, but you should have stepped in here long ago and shut this down)they would be made toast quickly. These blasphemers have become truly out-rageous and not interested ever in a well-reasoned and respectfully expressed debate. They have taught me one lesson…bigotry is alive and well in this world ..and speaking to the truth is more important than ever. But there are truly some whose hearts are so hard only God can change them. The rest of us should shake the dust from our feet and begone…lifting these recalcitrants up to the Lord!

Jesuitical, Jesus Christ founded only one, just one and one church only. Whatver name it took the moment he handed the keys to Peter, it matter little, except to the die-hards within Protestant ranks who always have this knack of finding whatever little “discrepancy” (so they believe) within Catholic teachings, etc. that’ll serve as their silver bullet argument in their efforts to undermine the credibility of Catholic claims. BTW, so long as we belive, and can prove quite easily, that Jesus, the Second Person in the Trinity, founded the Catholic Church, we don’t have to say another word after uttering this one clear sentence: “Catholicism traces its roots directly back to its original Divine Founder: Jesus Christ.”
  Try getting around that.
  Geeesh, things are really getting kind of crazy in this thread.

Actually, Thirst, I HAVE been on the FT website, when Richard John Neuhaus was editor, especially when he published discussions between creationists (he was one) and scientists (notable Edmund Oakes, SJ). so your hysteria is unfounded. As to ‘blasphemers’, that term isn’t found in the American Constitution, so it’s irrelevant to the gay marriage debate.  And you seem to think it’s bigotry not to call out bigots on their hatred. You keep falling into the same trap.

Bob - The church is not demonstrating at gay pride parades or any other place for that matter that gays gather but you and your fellow gay friends, protest and desecrate churches - I’m sure that you are the same person a while back who denied that gays were responsible for desecration of the Eucharist in St. Patrick’s Cathedral. Please don’t bring up your denials again. Have a good life, Bob - but understand one thing, you’re only here for a short time but eternity is a very long time.

Mary, your lies show how frustrated you are at falling into your self created paradoxes. No one desecrates churches, but Churches are all too willing to deny equal rights to some arbitrary group…be it Jews, Blacks, Gays, women, etc. It’s a roll of the dice to see which group is going to be hated on ‘biblical’ principles this week. Please don’t bring up your denials again. It’s tiresome to remind you of a history so well known.

Steven, you must return to some venue of learning.  The Xt never founded a church, never intended to so. What He did preach was the imminence of the second coming…as in now.  By the way there is no reference to any second coming of the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Xt presched that before some of the disciples experenced death, the kingdom would come…before you visit all of Judah…on earth that is.  Paul believed it would come in his lifetime, also, until his later years. The ‘casting of pearls before swine’ ofter referenced on this site addresses whether the words of Xt ought to be taught to gentiles…the quote is Jesus response to the inquiry.
As some have tried and failed to get Mary to understand is that there is no attempt at all to interfere with her brand of worship. What is addressed, however, is for Mary to get out of the way. Think what you will Mary, if you think at all, and do nothing to others which puts a stop on their decision regarding whom to marry. It matters not what you think, just get out of others way.
The early Xtians were ‘ecclesia’ a gathering of Xtians.  We can thank the Romans and Constantine for what the church has become.  The Roman church modeled itself after the Romans, hence the hierarchy and feudal sytem now prevailing over it. Mary no one expects you to indulge in life-long learning, but kindly get out of the way…of straights and gays.

Homosexuality is a troubling moral and social phenomenon, even in those countries where it does not present significant legal issues. It gives rise to greater concern in those countries that have granted or intend to grant ? legal recognition to homosexual unions, which may include the possibility of adopting children. [...]  The present Considerations are also intended to give direction to Catholic politicians by indicating the approaches to proposed legislation in this area which would be consistent with Christian conscience.  Since this question relates to the natural moral law, the arguments that follow are addressed not only to those who believe in Christ, but to all persons committed to promoting and defending the common good of society. [...]  If it is true that all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are obliged to do so in a particular way, in keeping with their responsibility as politicians. Faced with legislative proposals in favour of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are to take account of the following ethical indications.  When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic law-maker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.  When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is already in force, the Catholic politician must oppose it in the ways that are possible for him and make his opposition known; it is his duty to witness to the truth…

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

Since homosexuality is not a troubling moral concern except to bluenoses who think the govt should interfere in private sex lives, the Bishops are well advised to keep their noses OUT of American’s PRIVATE LIVES. America is not a Christian theocracy and the Bishops have NO RIGHT to tell politicians how to vote, let alone to force their hatred on all America. The bishops, with their perverted, purient interest in America’s bedrooms, should mind their own business. Harmful to the common good? Let’s see….number of homosexual wars in history? Zero. Number of RELIGIOUS wars? Gee. It seems RELIGION is harmful to the common good. The weird, twisted, Orwellian language of the Bishops is almost psychopathic in its hatred of gays.

ED, I appreciate your comments and from a practical application what you say is true.  The more damning effect and of greater consequence is that we are bewildered why Catholic politicians (who should know better) fail to see that it is their decisions which invite God’s judgment upon our nation and those nations which sanction homosexual marriage.  As Mary has pointed out, we do not and cannot control the behavior of such people. However, to officially pass state and federal law which violates what God Himself says is an affront to Him and is an abomination takes it to another level.  How long will the Lord stand idly by and not issue judgment upon any nation which mocks Him?  For God to not issue judgment upon any nation which legalizes homosexual marriage—then He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gormorrah —(which He will not do).  It is perplexing that Catholic politicians such as Andrew Cuomo, Gavin Newsome Jerry Brown, and Arnold do not see this.  The reality is that people of this stripe only identify themselves as Catholic but are not even Christian at the core.  Catholics have a duty to not vote for such people merely because they are Catholic.  These are same people who advocate passing out condoms to middle school and high school students.  The message being sent to young people by the state is “You can violate God’s law—and get away with it.”  No, there is a price to pay.  Politicians and bureaucrats become very self-serving to stay in office or power.  They, too, will be accountable unto the Lord for their unwise, prideful and sinful decisions which violate the laws of God.

@Jesuitical: You’re certainly right about finding a new “venue of learning” if I was in some “venue” where the likes of you and more of you are doing the teaching. Apparently you can’t tell a plain Biblical fact, much less historical or theological fact from the long side of a tobacco barn, especially when it comes to the origins of Christianity. And what’s with this ridiculous “Xt” designation for Jesus C H R I S T. See, that wasn’t so hard to type. Didn’t even take much longer.
  You’re in way over your head….WAAAAAAAAY OVER if that’s the best explanation you have for your take on the Church’s beginnings.
  Please don’t also tell me your favorite “venue of learning” American History is Beck University, especially David Barton’s odd “curriculum.”
  Again…you’re in waaaaaay over your head.

“Catholics have a duty to not vote for such people merely because they are Catholic.”

Actually… good, devout, and well catechized Catholics know how to discern properly and DON’T vote for them.

Unfortunately, Cafeteria Catholics, Catholics in name only, and poorly catechized Catholics DO.

Our “Bishops Need to Get Serious” in many different areas.  If they don’t… then God help us all.

Some may ask… what is a Cafeteria Catholic?

http://www.rosary-center.org/ll46n4.htm

Steve you need not be in any venue of learning with me;  some venue where you don’t choke on spoon fed ultra conservative Catholicism would suffice. I did not stop after six years of theology under the aegis of the Jesuits. But, from that education I do know quite well the present thinking of anal retentive Catholics, who spew venom in God’s name.  That is a shame. If any allow themselves to read an objective study of early Xtian history, the making and assembly of the Bible, you’d advance quickly to another position. There is no getting around that none of the author’s, whoever they were, sat down and stated that s/he was writing a Bible. Then all was written on parchment in scrolls, later codices.  Few were able to read. As Tertullian often stated; that it is best not to read and learn, so that no questions are asked. It seems from your sophomoric forays into the ancient arena that you have read nothing on the middle ages, but insist on getting angry and vile with anything which does not affirm a position you already hold. But, you do not sit alone in your lack of endeavor to read and learn aside from Catholic indoctrination.

ED, in Christian and Evangelical churches they have much the same.  They are referred to as cavalier Christians.  They believe in God, but are not fully yielded.  They are Christians who have fully never surrendered their lives to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

cafeteria Catholics are those who insist that being gay is immoral but ignore the fact the bible approves of slavery; that it approves of mass murder; that it requires death for blasphemers. You can’t have it both ways…saying being gay is unbiblical while ignoring the bible’s approval of slavery. THAT is a cafeteria Catholic

N.O.—-  We must pray for them all.  Just like we must pray for all the anti-Catholics, atheists, agnostics, gay activists, abortionists, etc…etc.

We may not be able to have a ‘meaningful’ dialog with many of the rabid, narrow-minded, mentally-challenged, arrogant, self-absorbed, pompous, and hard-hearted ones… but we MUST pray for them!  No matter how difficult that may be at times.  LOL

bob,  with every post you are making your position less relevant.  It is the “acting upon” homosexual behavior which is unbiblical.  Since you have previously stated you are not accountable to the Lord, why does anything biblical or unbiblical matter?  Perhaps you really do have a desire to come to Christ after all these posts but are unsure of His acceptance of you?  I assure you that His arms are open and He will not turn you away.  He died that you may have life abundantly with Him.  John 6:37 states:  “He who so ever would come to me I will in no wise cast out.”

N.O.— It would be MUCH better to just leave bob up to ‘The Big Guy’ at this time.

He is not done with ‘little’ bob yet… LOL

Bob - “No one desecrates churches, but Churches are all too willing to deny equal rights to some arbitrary group…be it Jews, Blacks, Gays, women, etc. It’s a roll of the dice to see which group is going to be hated on ‘biblical’ principles this week.”

1.  I don’t lie.
2.  Everyone is welcome in the Catholic Church. My husband attended mass with me as a Jew and no one prevented him from being there.
3. There are black people in my parish, I don’t see anyone telling them to get out.
4. I’m female and have an important role in parish ministry with my husband.
5. Christians don’t hate.

Understand something though, the Catholic Church is not a democracy and we don’t get to decide what is right or wrong. We leave that to God and to God alone.

Lastly, let me understand you, I need to get out of the way of straights and gays but you don’t have to get out of my way or the Church’s way? Hmmm, something seems really mixed up. I don’t hate anyone, but I do have a right to defend the teachings of “my church” when she is being attacked by someone who does hate - yes, Bob you hate the Catholic Church. Why would you spend so much time here? You have nothing better to do? You like arguing with orthodox Catholics? You like belittling people because it makes you feel important? You hate the Catholic Church and you just want to zing it to “her” and its members? I’m not going away and give up fighting for what I believe is immoral. Like it or not I’m here to stay (and I’m not referring to this blog). You and your friends are not getting my acceptance. Why do you need it, Bob? If you are strong in your convictions why do you need anyone’s acceptance? I don’t need yours.

Mary M. -  why MUST you continue to engage?  It’s over…  Time to end this.  Stop motivating them to continue their nonsense.

Don’t let your spiritual pride get in the way Mary.

Peace…

@bob:
I’m sure someone has already addressed this, but in excommunicating someone like Cuomo, bishops WOULD NOT BE CONTROLLING HIS VOTE. Their actions would totally respect the separation of Church and state provided for by the constitution. What they would be doing, however, is saying, “Your vote is proof that you believe things that are not in the Catholic tradition, therefore, you are not Catholic.” That’s it - there would be no coercion, no arms, or threats, against the man. He would simply be non-Catholic, which is exactly what YOU want. You would not longer have a religious Catholic promoting legislation.

Now, if you’re point is that Catholic politicians, who decide to vote their Catholic conscience, should be prohibited from holding office, I’m certain the Constitution refutes that argument.

@ED - I can appreciate your concerns about not encouraging further discussion with Bob and others, with the exception of you accusing me of spiritual pride which I found totally inappropriate. Actually I have been thinking what a total waste of time all this posting we all do on these blogs truly is. Don’t all of us have anything better to do with our time except respond to angry people with an agenda whose only motivation is to bash the Church?

“Don’t all of us have anything better to do with our time except respond to angry people with an agenda whose only motivation is to bash the Church?”

That was exactly my point Mary.  Don’t feed the trolls… especially the rabid anti-Catholic/gay activist types.  It’s a silly and fruitless endeavor.

As to the spiritual pride comment… don’t be too offended.  Because of our fallen nature, we ‘all’ have to fight a little pride now and again.  Unfortunately, it’s just not always that noticeable to us.

In any case… I’m certain you are a very wonderful lady and mean well.  Here’s hoping that you and your newly ordained husband continue to humbly do God’s work at your parish.

And please remember Mary, comboxes can unfortunately become very ugly places even at Catholic sites.  Try your best not to become engulfed in rabid and fruitless arguments.  You certainly have better things to do!

God Bless…

Ed and Mary:  In addition to those individuals who purposely spew forth hateful remarks designed to antagonize you, consider also there are people posting this type of remark who have never heard “truth” —the gospel of Jesus Christ.  You may be presenting information they are hearing for the very first time in their lives.  You do not really know.  Consider also people who read your comments in the wider audience who never post anything.  We are only called to witness for Christ and to proclaim His gospel.  We are not responsible for the results.  We leave that up to the Lord.  As for wasting time, there are certainly enough other blog topics on NCR for Catholics to fight over which are silly, totally unproductive and have no eternal value.  “If they have hated you, know that they have me before you.”  John 15: 18.

N.O. -  with all due respect… IMO you need to go talk to our Holy Father about all your Vatican concerns (note your above comments) instead of wasting your precious time here attempting to go head-to-head with irrational and rabid anti-Catholic/gay activists.

It might prove much more ‘enlightening’ to you and then you can come back here and let us know exactly what you learned… or what you taught B16.

ED, were I fortunate to obtain an audience I would (respectfully) share my concerns and graciously listen as well.

Hi ED - despite my telling you that I didn’t appreciate your comment about “my spiritual pride” you responded and once again succeeded in talking to me in a very patronizing way. What’s up, ED? Are you married, ED?

Mary, I agree with ED regarding his comment to you.  Spiritual pride.  ED is right that you just don’t notice it.  You have about a dozen or so “I this” or “I that” in your rant to bob.  You are too emotional and need to chill out.

”..despite my telling you that I didn’t appreciate your comment about “my spiritual pride” you responded and once again succeeded in talking to me in a very patronizing way.”

Sorry you feel that way Mary.

Perhaps (?) you just have a little bit of a difficult time accepting any criticism/suggestion from others even when it is intended to help you.

In any case… I stand by my comment.

Have a nice day Mary.

ED - I didn’t ask for your help. Me thinks you might be the one “suffering” from spiritual pride since you are determined to “correct me”. Anyone else might have just apologized and let it go. All the more reason for me to stay off these blogs when you receive patronizing comments from total strangers. Yes, ED I am a nice lady as you put it; but I’m also not a shrinking violet and I really can take care of myself and if I do need correcting that’s what my husband is there for.

@Jesuitical: Why don’t you inquire of some other Register readers/commentary participants if they believe all that “spoon fed conservative Catholicism” had any effect on my educational formation, training, whatever you or they wish to call it. I’ll bet they’re even more surprised, (if not rolling on their floors laughing) as I was when I first started to hack my way through your this reply?
  With apologies to Walt Disney, the next time you feel the urge to gaze into your mirror and commence loudly exhorting to yourself, “Mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the most erudite Register commentator of them all,”  maybe you ought to examine where the people you can’t wait to compare yourself against are really coming from. Good Heavens, you might actually discover that these folks you love to look down certainly don’t suffer for any “lack of endeavor to read and learn aside from Catholic indoctrination.”
  Indeed we don’t. Many of us are quite desirous to find out what their Church’s doctrines, dogma and contemporary pastoral letters have to say insofar about the tough issues that have faced us for 2,000 years, today and those we’re likely to face for many tomorrows ahead. Likewise, most Catholics who love their Faith, also do more than just give what the Church’s harshest critics have said about her for centuries; never mind today. I can read writers on all sides of all issues and know full well, where my head and heart “will be” when I hit the sack late at night.
  You, Jesuitical, seem more afraid of your own intellectual shadow (and what it might reveal, a dearth of a truly rounded liberal arts formation, never mind “venue”), and such a shame. Step away from the   mirror and you’ll be stepping away from that shadow you fear most.
  BTW, what’s your real, personal and deeply motivating force that’s pushing so much anti-Catholcism that’s stuck inside you like magma below a volcano? If you don’t wish to share because it’s so deeply personal, I can fully understand, and empathize with you. Most importantly, you have my prayers because I sense a very troubled spirit. And I’m writing this in all sincerity.
  However, if your beef is just philosophically based, well ... perhaps it’s time for YOU to consider hitting the books again. It won’t hurt you in the least to select from a wider array of writers; meaning both pro-as-well-as-anti-Catholic-writers-and-sources. Nothing beats variety for learning while reading. Next to traveling abroad and visiting those places where we’d last want to visit for one reason or another, making “intellectual visits” so to speak in our readings does wonders not only for the mind, but also for one’s inner peace of mind and soul as well. What have you got to fear losing: your strong anti-Catholicism?
  If that’s the case, try this: Think of losing that “intellectual” albatross and see what happens next. You won’t regret it, and you’ll earn far more respect for what you shed this time, save for the price of the pseudo intellectual pride that’s fueling your abilities to keep some age old grudge alive.
  If what I’ve written here can’t sway you, perhaps you should read what Sts. Paul, Augustine and Cardinal Newman all had to say about the price they paid for holding on too long and hard to old shibboleths and outright lies. Read Newman’s famous poem “Pillar of the Cloud” (Lead kindly Light) and pay close attention to what he had to say about pride and what it cost him.

Hey Steven -  I thought you jumped???

What in the world is your purpose in still ‘baiting’ this late in the thread?

What exactly are you trying to prove (or do) anyway?

BTW… If you are so bored and just want something special to do then let me suggest this:

Shhh-h… don’t tell anybody, but there might (?) be a “wolves in sheep’s clothing” group that has been posting in the comboxes of NCRegister lately playing a loose version of the “good cop - bad cop” routine in an attempt to get their slanted viewpoints across to a large Catholic audience.

Be a good boy and spend a few days reviewing all the threads/posts for the last few weeks at NCRegister and see if you can verify if it’s really true or not.  If so, try to come up with a good listing of who’s who and let us know. 

I would suggest you spend much of your time reviewing threads related to Catholic hierarchy, fallen priests, pro-life, gay marriage, etc…etc.

Let’s see how good you are.

Look forward to hearing from you whenever you finish.

Go get ‘em young man.

@Ed, I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at. But if it’s about my reply to Jesuitical, it’s because I sense there’s something behind some of his most virulent and off the wall anti-Catholic posts; not to mention some of of his misreadings of my views. Just for the record, I happen to be a social conservative, fiscal liberal, and when it comes to foreign policy/defense matters, as I age, I find the Teddy Roosevelt, “Big Stick” outlook the best approach for the long haul.
  If that makes not an easy guy to peg, that’s perfectly fine by me. In fact, it’d be best all around if all of us could avoid falling into the traps of ideological predictability or lockstep thinking; even in matters of Church teachings, etc. That doesn’t mean I support rival magisteriums, open defiance of the Church, esp. on the key core matters, marriage, abortion, euthanasia, etc.
  However, in years past, I used to be a very hardliner sometimes I simply went over the line and while I can’t exactly say what the issue was or what exactly got me to say “Whoa, I’ve gone too far and left this person feeling so beaten up,” but one day came and when coupled with hearing in the back of my head my wife’s pleas for me to stop insisting on having the final word all the time ... I knew I had to pull back.
  There’s a difference between knowing what we have and how blessed we as Catholics are to have it. There’s that dangerous point of no return we don’t want to cross ... where charity ... isn’t just put beyond the back seat or even the trunk, but simply tossed out ... again, for the sake of getting that last definitive word in. Gotta be the “winner.”
  Geesh, I’ve lost track of how many “wins” I actually lost during the first decade or so of my recently celebrated 28 years of marriage to my one and only bride.
  I’m guilty of pulling some tough lines in this and other threads, and going too long. But I’ve also noticed (and it’s not just specific to this thread or even just the Register) but there seems to be this rawness in public discussiona and a desire to trash the other person in addition to ideas we might honestly disagree with on valid philosophical and moral grounds.
  I haven’t jumped, Ed. Nor am I playing “good cop/bad cop” ... good one, LOL, and it was fair ... but perhaps suffice to say, given all the tensions of the world, perhaps THE one place where we need to air our disagreements out honestly, without resorting to ad hominems and over the top “bombs” directed at somebody else in a style similar to a talking head, is a place aligning itself very closely with the Catholic Church, in fact this website and other (more or less “official”) Catholic sites.
  And please understand, I don’t want to point any fingers at anybody…after all, there’s only one place and person left for us to point fingers at when we have to think about what each of us can do to become better Catholics, spouses, parents, siblings, children and fellow citizens; and that’s ourselves, especially as individuals.
  Hope that explains things, Ed.

Steven - I know you feel it’s important to make sure others understand what you mean ‘exactly’... but sometimes (like on this rock-throwing long-winded thread) it’s much better to just let that personal urge/need go and just let ‘sleeping dogs’ lie. There will always be another day young man.

As that old song goes:

“You’ve got to know when to hold them,
know when to fold them…”

Things have finally quieted down Steven… don’t stir things up again.  It’s not necessary.

@Ed: This dawg’s taken up your advice quite seriously zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, but Ed, I’ve gotta thank you for this ... “... There will always be another day young man.” When you’re 59 and almost knockin’ on the big Six OH, those two words “young man” are day makers! Thank you!

“When you’re 59 and almost knockin’ on the big Six OH, those two words “young man” are day makers! Thank you!”

You’re certainly welcome young man!!!

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