I’ve never seen a Catholic parish with 10 ministries (though I have seen far greater in Protestant groups). The most I’ve see can be counted on half a handful. It must be a regional thing.

What I have seen is that in Catholic parishes with ministries, the fact that they are available and especially that they are operated by the lay is largely unadvertised. It might appear in a bulletin as an “Out from the cold ministry for street people”, but there’s no indication that it’s run by the lay or that new members are allowed.” But there isn’t a point where announcements for such things happens (announcements seem to be related to dedications of the mass and announcements of marriages, funerals, and baptisms) or a common time of coming together outside of worship. It seems parishes don’t see such things as appropriate.

I agree with you, but for totally different reasons!

Before the 2nd Vatican Council, the Church in the US was wildly vibrant with “lay apostolates.” An large parish could have dozens of these lay-led groups. Groups like “Catholic Action,” “St. Vincent de Paul Societies,” “Holy Name Societies,” “Children of Mary” and plenty of other sodalities, confraternities, clubs, societies etc. These lay apostolates were run and funded by the laity. Most of them sought out the pastor’s advice, blessing and aide in their work, but they weren’t run by the Church… In fact, the US Bishops became minor celebrities at Vatican II because of this phenomenon. In many ways the Vatican II Document on the laity wanted to establish this as Standard Operating Procedure around the world. The strong Marxist tones of the 60s combined with the Protestant-ization of American Catholicism after the council actually reversed the process which the council advocated here at home. US Clerics mis-interpreted the Council to mean that the laity should be as busy as possible during Holy Mass and then walk out the back door and they were done for the week - an attitude which was not part of the American Catholic mind until the 70s.

The modern (Protestant) model of the Church as a central corporation which has to oversee the works of the faithful is really a detriment to us. A single parish may only be able to incorporate a few “ministries” under its roof because of staff and resources… But even a small parish could easily support a Knights of Columbus Council, an Altar Society, a Catholic Action group and a slew of other lay-led clubs over which the pastor need not exert direct managerial control.

Add to that an endless number of catechism study groups, bible study groups, book clubs, prayer groups, rosary cenacles, etc all founded and aided with the abundance of resources available to us online and the pastor’s ordinary spiritual oversight.

If American Parishes could abandon the Protestant mentality where the Pastor is responsable to hand me everything and return to the more Catholic model of lay apostolate - then I think the issue would dissolve right away - along with big parish staffs which waste big parish dollars!

Just wondering: what is the draw of the “mega” churches that seem to cover everything from day care to health club within their campuses?
Know a lot of Catholics who have joined them because they are offering things young, upward mobile people seem to want.

Ronald, that’s a great observation. I think that lack of advertising/promotion of the various ministries, as well as the lack of a clear, coherent presentation of what the parish has to offer stems from a lack of leadership as well. That’s what good leaders do well.

Fr. Humphries, I appreciate your thoughts a lot! You make some great points. I think it comes down to leadership and cohesion at the parish level. It is often absent. Those leaders can be parishioners. They can be the pastor. But it isn’t there. Your model that you describe (before Vatican II) I’m sure has a lot of great things about it. Perhaps it IS better overall. But I don’t see it being implemented very well anywhere. And admittedly, that was before my time. Perhaps we don’t have enough active Catholics for that model anymore. I don’t know. Maybe Americans expect something different(whether right or wrong) and we need to reach out to them in ways that they will respond to in order to get them back inspired about their faith and immersed in the sacraments.

But we shouldn’t forget that the “corporation”, while it does have drawbacks, actually has a lot of positives too. It’s one reason America has become so economically successful and is able to do so many wonderful things around the world and at home. It was that kind of industrious innovation that sparked productivity like never seen before in the history of the world. Certainly similar kinds of things happen throughout history in terms of how we run parishes. The model you are proposing was certainly entirely novel at one point in history as well.

And we can’t get caught up on whether or not it is “protestant” or not. If we are going to intentionally not do things simply because protestants do them, then we are missing the boat. I’m not saying this is what you are suggesting, but many in the Church do take this approach. Just as we have a lot to teach, there is a lot we can learn from other faiths, organizations and even corporations when it comes to being effective leaders.

It’s not my intention here to decide how much or little a pastor oversees a ministry, or whether the laity or the clergy run it, etc. I will leave that to those doing it. But what I do know is that many parishes lack serious leadership once they get outside of Mass. And they could do a whole lot more with the resources they have if they worked together more effectively. That’s the frustrating part for me and where I see a lot of potential if we could come together and start out by focusing on doing a few things really well. I think that would do a lot for our evangelization efforts.

Gary - I think that’s a great question, too. I know a lot of people (some of them former Catholics) who are drawn to those kinds of churches as well. Not just because they are “mega”, but because they offer a lot of other thriving programs. I’m not saying that’s what Catholic parishes need to mimic, but i think there is still something there to learn from.

I think people want community. It’s natural. They like doing things in a specific community. So it’s nice when worshiping, day care, schooling, counseling, recreation, can all happen around and in a community that shares your values. I know I want that for my family. It just makes life easier.

I think parishes USED to be more like that (at least in my mind) in the past. Life revolved around the parish. Everyone in the community was pretty much Catholic, you saw everyone at Mass on Sunday, all of your kids went to the Catholic school together, all other ministries and activities sprung from that.

Unfortunately, we don’t have that anymore. The school system is other. Child care is other. Our recreation is other. Many of our friends and even family are other. I’m not sure our parish model has adapted to that dramatic shift in culture as well as it could.

@Matthew
Well said. Leadership is absolutely the crucial need. I think, though, that it has to be cultivated more and more in the parish, especially as the demands on the priest continue to increase. I know that my altar society loves when I attend meetings and lead the rosary, but if they also wanted me to handle their books - I’d just come up short.

As to the question of protestant\catholic, I disagree. As a student of philosophy, one of the most overwhelming things I’ve learned is that the basic foundations upon which some practice are built often matter than they might seem.

There are plenty of similarities between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity which are all too often understood to be exact matches. These similarities come from radically different underlying philosophies - some of which were specifically condemned as heresies through the years. The danger with letting those poisons in - even little by little - is that you end up embracing some horrific error.

For example, the notion of Jesus as a “Personal Lord and Savior” seems innocuous enough, as does the idea of a “Personal Relationship” with Jesus. Many Catholics assume that both of these ideas fit into the Catholic Faith very comfortably. The problem is that they are both dangerous errors. They both create a sense that my perception of the Lord has anything at all to do with who He really is or the moral life I’m called to lead. They both effect the soul’s living out of the Christian life in surprisingly drastic ways.

And so the need to identify which leadership and ecclesial models are consistent with the Catholic Faith and which are actually opposed to it cannot be left up to a surface-level consideration. That would be like diagnosing car or health problems without opening the hood or performing medical tests.

Of course, this doesn’t serve as any kind of accusation against anyone - it’s just a general concern from a priest and philosophy student who has a unique perspective on the danger of drinking the kool-aid.

The modern experience of Catholicism is miles and miles away from what the Church’s documents or the Second Vatican Council called for and the process that got us here began and has been continued and strengthened by giving too much credit and not enough skepticism to wolves in sheep’s clothing. St. Paul demands that we test everything and St. John warns us to be always on guard again Anti-Christs in our midst…

There’s certainly truth to be found in lots of places! But half-truths are infinitely more dangerous. Half-truths are the domain of the father of lies who cannot create but can only twist and deform. And the only guarantor against half-truths is the Catholic Church and her magisterium.

Again, thanks for the article - really good reminders to me in the parish! God Bless.

I worked at a parish for 2 years and there were about 25 different ministries, none of which were done well, and all run by non-committed volunteers who thought it was the staff’s job to do all the footwork for them (as if the staff didn’t have enough to do!).

We definitely need parishes to do less but better.

I think it also depends on the size of the parish.  We have over 3,000 families and over 10,000 parishers.  Our school is full and the parish has many young families.  The CYO sports program is vibrant.  We have 24/7 perpetual adoration with two people covering most of the one-hour time slots, but always at least one person, in addition to many walk-in adorers. 

We can handle many organizations since we have so many people. There are organizations for the young and the old, but all groups fit into our parish mission of living the Gospel.  It is great to have organizations that allow parishoners to help others, such as a “meals on wheels” type of service, or driving a shut-in to a doctor’s appointment.

So,I just think this is not a one-size-fits-all situation.

The contrast between the oldtime parishes and the new parishes is that most people don’t live within walking distance of their parish anymore. Sometimes they’re even outside of convenient driving distance.

I bet Catholic parishes would have more participation if people in the immediate neighborhood of the church tried to ensure that active Catholics move in when old neighbors move out.

Fr. Humphries - I’m still not sure which “half-truths” are being promoted or embraced by a parish who simply wants to create effective, well-run parish ministries that strive for excellence by embracing the leadership and organizational lessons we’ve learned as a society over the past half century? This is a subject I’m trying to learn a lot more about…so your feedback and thoughts are much appreciated (as are everyone’s).

Very interested in this topic and if any parish has actually addressed it and how they have gone about it.  Thank you

@Matthew

The biggest of these half-truths is in the area of ecclesiology. (Which is the Theological and Philosophical understanding of who the Church is, in herself, and what is Her mission.)

I’ve been in a number of midsize (1000-2000 families) parishes that fully embraced the corporate model of well-run ministries. The fundamental purpose of the Church is the salvation of souls. And yet, at these parishes, and at plenty of other larger parishes in, say, New Orleans, when I was in Seminary, the programs that I found were generic Christian money management, “Christian yoga,” Cursillo groups, Little Rock Bible Study, etc… The problem is that none of those things has anything at all to do with salvation… They’re just social events. There is some vague Christian message, but it’s not a Catholic one. The most vile of the things that comes across is the idea of immanentism (that this world is more important than the world to come).

An additional problem with this model is that because all of these “ministries” are directly responsible to the pastor, when the pastor is moved after 6 or 10 years, the entire parish is upended… Chaos reigns until the new pastor comes in and reestablishes those ministries that he approves us. This creates the false belief that the Catholic Church is not really a universal Church but merely a set of recommendations to be implemented as each Pastor sees fit. Give a parish three very different pastors in ten years and they can very realistically believe that Catholicism is basically the same as Methodism.

Another majorly problematic half-truth with the corporate way of thinking, is that Christianity can be reduced to putting in my weekly dues (at Sunday Mass) and then buying the school band’s fundraiser candy (volunteering). It’s very possible - and I believe widespread - for people to believe that they just have to put in a few hours volunteering at the parish fair and go to Mass and they are all right by God. There are a lot of people who come into the confessional and say they missed Mass or they haven’t been to confession in 2 years but make the excuse ‘but I’m a lector or an Extraordinary Ministry of Holy Communion” as if that somehow alleviates the problem.

Now, all of these particular examples trace their roots to a variety of issues in the Church. But when the Church is seen as a community center with a spiritual component, things are bad.

Again Matthew, I’m not putting those words in your mouth - I still agree that whatever we do, we must do with excellence. I am still concerned though about the Catholic Church trying to imitate the Protestant MegaChurches… The Catholic Church must be a place dedicated to the salvation of souls first. We must not allow ourselves to get lost in a maze of worldly pursuits which we, frankly, aren’t any good at. If the faithful want to learn Christian finance, then let them meet at the KC hall and do it. Let the Catholic Daughters sponsor the bible studies. Let them find authentic community among one another and not contrived community among the same 5% of the parish that volunteers for everything. Mainstream Protestantism has had its hayday and its dying rapidly - it’s time for us as a Church to let go of using them as a model and return to what we do best.

Again, thanks for the insightful articles - I really love to read your stuff! FrR

Wow. 
I agree that we need clearer vision in our parishes.  What has been lacking for a very long time is any coherent approach to formation for adults - it’s a very potluck kind of place.  In my position in our parish as Director of formation and evangelization, one of my hopes is that I’m creating a kind of trajectory that people will follow - and if they go through several years of our programming, they’ll learn how to read the bible, how to pray, how to understand church history, how to do apologetics.  We’re running a cycle of these elements - but it will take several more years to be sure it’s working.

In response to Fr. Humphries, I agree with much of your concerns…we need more apostolates, more converted and committed laity directing them, building organizations, etc.  HOWEVER.  I’m on staff at a parish of 2500 families.  I run a Bible Study, a FInance course, a moms group, a married couples group.  And I manage to keep busy with a myriad of parent meetings for programs .  Everything I do is with an eye to conversion and discipleship.  I believe that we must provide age/stage programming that proposes Christ at the center of everything in our lives - and that certainly includes $$.  Now, if I can get the Knights to do that course for others - great.  Right now I have a man from our finance council running it and he is a great leader.  I have our moms group sponsor marriage workshops and women’s retreats.  I am trying to inculcate the notion of mission, of apostolate in the people who attend all these programs. 

I think our biggest challenge as a church is in homiletics.  All the programs in the parish reach a fraction of the numbers that father speaks to on a Sunday.  The pastor and associates need to propose a clear vision of the implications of the gospel in all our lives.  Conversion to Christ, a life of discipleship must be proposed every week - cuz too often the folks in the pew aren’t clear on why they’re supposed to be here. 

In my adult confirmation classes, I no longer make any assumptions about the level of faith in my attendees.  I begin by examining the question of God, move to how we know Jesus is a historical person, why we can have confidence in his gospel story, and where the Church came from.  I propose faith as the most important question any adult will answer - and I make a case for Catholic faith.  The response has been pretty surprising.  I see conversion happening right before my eyes.

FInally, and BTW - Mainline Protestantism is indeed dying - but evangelicalism is thriving.  And it is thriving with former Catholics who find a proposal of Christ more dynamic and clearly articulated at the mega church than in their parish.  THat ought to concern us.  It’s not that we should adopt a foreign theology.  But WE NEED to be clear that we are indeed proposing salvation - not touchy feely, social action, whatever.  But Christ - and if you really want to have a RELATIONSHIP with Christ you need the Eucharist - AND Christ’s Church (that would be the Catholic Church).

As is often the case, the original article was insightful and provocative, and the comments are even more powerful.  Thanks for stimulating this, Matthew.

This topic/challenge obviously resonates with many.  It is quite relevant for my parish and reminds me of a related challenge our pastor has been sharing - how do parishes work more effectively together to offer complimentary ministries?

In our Midwest city, we have many mid-sized parishes in close proximity.  While this prompts rather frequent “church hopping” by some, it could enable shared ministries and activities.  This has happened with some trivial but necessary services (like fingerprinting for volunteers); but will we see more significant cooperation with ministerial efforts between neighboring parishes?  If so, this could fundamentally change the identity of a parish and its vision.

Fr. Humphries - a few comments…

You say “And yet, at these parishes, and at plenty of other larger parishes in, say, New Orleans, when I was in Seminary, the programs that I found were generic Christian money management, “Christian yoga,” Cursillo groups, Little Rock Bible Study, etc… The problem is that none of those things has anything at all to do with salvation… They’re just social events. “

While I agree that some of the focuses in these ministries are misplaced, that’s a problem with the chosen ministry, not the problem with having a well-run ministry in the first place. And if many of those ministries don’t have anything to do with “saving souls”, as you suggest, then neither does feeding the poor or clothing the naked…which we know isn’t true. They are all spiritual and corporal works of mercy in their own ways. And they are opportunities to build relationships and share the gospel and point people back to the sacraments.

You also say…“An additional problem with this model is that because all of these “ministries” are directly responsible to the pastor, when the pastor is moved after 6 or 10 years, the entire parish is upended.”

This is a perfect example of BAD organizational leadership. A great leader will create ministries that are not dependent upon themselves to be sustained. You are making my point. Excellent pastoral leadership builds unity, creates opportunities and guidelines to share resources efficiently and empowers other people to go and make it all happen.

Your next point - “Another majorly problematic half-truth with the corporate way of thinking, is that Christianity can be reduced to putting in my weekly dues (at Sunday Mass) and then buying the school band’s fundraiser candy (volunteering). “

This point is moot to this topic. It’s a danger in any parish model. Having well run ministries and effective leadership certainly doesn’t increase this danger. If they are run right, they would decrease this danger.

Your final point - “We must not allow ourselves to get lost in a maze of worldly pursuits which we, frankly, aren’t any good at. If the faithful want to learn Christian finance, then let them meet at the KC hall and do it. Let the Catholic Daughters sponsor the bible studies. Let them find authentic community among one another and not contrived community among the same 5% of the parish that volunteers for everything.”

You’re continuing to make my point. The KC hall should most certainly be a place to do that. And the Catholics daughters can do the bible studies, great. The trouble is that parishes are in the place to facilitate, promote and feed those ministries and turn them into flourishing successes that help more people…and they are not doing that well.

I don’t understand what you’re saying about the “contrived community among the same 5% of the parish”...that’s what we have NOW! Because only the 5% of the community that will participate in the parish community no matter what we do are the ones showing up! Having well-run ministries and excellent parish leadership is what is going to pull in more of the parish to participate.

Thanks, father!

@Matthew
I’m concerned that the ancillary is obfuscating the central.
Can a Catholic Church with a well centered and oriented clergy and faithful conduct efficient programs? Of course!
Can those programs be oriented only indirectly toward the salvation of souls and still be beneficial? Of course!
Can a well-oiled leadership paradigm create high efficiency and still highly Catholic ideals? Of course!
But what comes first… As I noted in my first comment, I agree with you. In fact, I’ve agreed in large part with most of your articles. And so we mustn’t get into any kind of antagonistic mode of thinking.
That being said, I agree with you for different reasons than you cite. I believe that parishes are trying too hard to do everything and need to back off of doing everything and do what they need to do (and do that well). I believe that, though, because the Catholic Church was not created to be a community center or a social work center. What we do should come neither from bureaucracy, nor from corporate efficiency principles, nor from error-rich Protestant theology, but from the nature of the Church herself.
In direct response to my previous comments about philosophical errors creating problems:
The foundation effects the house… Corporate & bureaucratic models work perfectly when you have an ideal bureaucrat or an ideal manager. They collapse when you have a bad one. If we are content to establish our parish structures or our parish programming on these models (or other models foreign to the mission of the salvation of souls) then those structures and programs will be prone to collapse when an un-ideal leader or program surfaces (as it will inevitably do). This can only lead to the detriment of souls.
It’s like basing basketball plays on football rules - eventually, things are going to collapse.
Again, that’s not to say that there aren’t excellent administrators and excellent programs out there… It’s also not to say that a particular parish can’t work in these ways.
I agree with you that we need to redevelop our parish structures and do what do with excellence - but I think that’s true not for excellence’s own sake, but for the sake of building our house on the rock and not on the sand.
Thanks again for the articles. FrR

Lately we have seen the centralization of the parish under a ‘parish manager,’ who is often glorified pastor’s secretary, in our region at least. They have no real financial background or true management education or knowledge and have no understanding of the life of a parish. Unfortunately this is gradually robbing the life of the parish. The central person has created a position for themself where they need to be the one handing St. Vincent their collection buckets, they need to actually head up some of the organizations, or determine the membership of the groups, etc. The parish functioned very well before this centralization, but it is obviously based on the need to ‘look busy’ and centralize their ‘authority’ in the priest’s name (ensuring they maintain their high ‘manager’s’ salary 60,000 + job.) The priests in our region, on the other hand, are only to happy to pay this exhorbitant salary while the parish is slowly dying financially, and let the person look like a ‘manager’ so that they can go off and not be bothered (our priest is not present almost all day. I’m sorry but they are not visiting the sick all day - i’ve known priests.)

Fr. Humphries - I really do appreciate your thoughts and I hope you don’t think me antagonistic. I certainly didn’t mean to be.

I agree that none of these “programs” should come before the primary role and purpose of the parish. That said, in a lot of ways they are all caught up together. And that “well-oiled leadership paradigm” can be a very powerful friend to the primary purpose of the parish in the salvation of souls. We must have both.

Yes, bad leaders will come and go and they will affect how well things are run. Just as they will affect how well parishioners are catechized, how faithful the liturgy is, etc. Which is, of course, detrimental to the salvation of souls. So for the same reason, we need pastors dedicated to leadership excellence. First, as we both agree, to the primary need/function of the parish and secondarily to the programs/vision that magnify and funnel the effects from the former.

It’s not a matter of how corporate or bureaucratic a parish is. Hands-off vs hands-on. In the loop or just oversees the loop. Etc. Different things work in different cultures with different people in different sizes and types of parishes that do different things with different resources with different leaders under a wide-range of circumstances. But a good leader will make it work. And do it well. With a kind of deliberateness and vision that is absent from far too many parishes.

The point I raise in this post is simply a practical truth: We can accomplish more and be more effective when we work together, share resources, share a common goal and are all working in harmony towards a unified vision…as opposed to everyone doing their own thing.

It’s that old adage that says the “whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”

Right now too many parishes are simply the sum of their parts. We need effective local leaders/pastors who can bring the parts together into a “whole” that could be so much more.

The “Foundation” you are talking about is a given. I agree 100%. It’s gotta be first. I’m really talking about what we do once we have our foundation in order to multiply our effectiveness.

Thank you so much for your insights, thoughts and challenges to mine. I really appreciate it. God bless you.

If a priest/pastor is a prayerful and attentive shepherd, nourishing his people with authentic and inspired teaching - and gives support to all his ministries with the love of a father and gentle guidance - without micromanaging - that is all the centralization you need, without killing the dynamic life of the parish organism. The unified vision is Christ, deliberately in love with Christ. All flows from that.
Yes, you need to have plans, yes you need a finance committee and parish council - but every single thing should not be centralized to be a flourishing parish. Grateful for our parishes and our priests, deacons and nuns - and our dedicated lay people who care so much.