My clarification (my opinion only) for Ratzinger’s comments, repeated as Pope Benedict, is not that the Church “needs” to get smaller, at least in a sense of requirement, but that it will get smaller if all the secular forces hitting it keep up their attack.  These force may be able to peel away the outer layers (social Catholics?) to a point (and maybe a great percentage of the faith will give up), but the inner circle of authentic Catholics will carry on the faith, and pass it down to their children, and eventually it will lead to a inter-generational purification process that will be hard to see at the everyday level. From this you will get the pure Church against which the gates of Hell will not prevail.  Thus, I see “need” equal mere predictive language from the Pope.  Any concurrences?

When I started my RCIA class, my Priest unexpectedly started off by throwing down a gauntlet. He said becoming Catholic was a serious choice to not be taken lightly and like the early martyrs would we be willing to stand up for our faith even if it meant suffering persecution or even death? Way more effective than the warm-fuzzy greeting I ‘assumed’ was coming. When the rubber meets the road, many people fall away. You see it in our faith as well as other denominations with those who only attend Christmas/Easter or say they are Christian but never attend church period. You see this with political groups (Republican/Democrat) and in secular organizations; how many are members but rarely participate, attend meetings or anything beyond being just a check on a box? Whether one is a paper tiger or not goes beyond numbers, are we effective? To be honest I think we are only holding the tide at best.

I agree FILIUSDEXTRIS. Much has been made of “smaller church” Ratziner/Benedict comment. It is often used to imply that Benedict would like to rid the church of all but those who are the most orthodox. However, those who follow Benedict, understand that the pope is firm in his teaching, yet gentle and understanding with those who are “on the way”. He doesn’t desire a “smaller church”, but he is realistic enough to understand that pruning can lead to stronger growth.

It is a huge encouragement to hear that the Pope is thinking about this.  I am not a Catholic, though I lean Catholic in many areas, and I find it a huge turn-off that when I meet someone who claims to be a Catholic, they are almost certainly not following the teachings of their Church.  I don’t know what should be done about this, but it does seem like that’s part of the point of having an hierarchy that wields authority.

The Holy Father said in his Homily on Holy Thursday:  “Jesus desires us, he awaits us. But what about ourselves? Do we really desire him? Are we anxious to meet him? Do we desire to encounter him, to become one with him, to receive the gifts he offers us in the Holy Eucharist? Or are we indifferent, distracted, busy about other things?”  St Thomas Aquinas wrote that the GREATEST gift Our Blessed Lord gave to us is Holy Eucharist.  As Catholics we are the ONLY people on the planet to HAVE this gift and it is sickening and shameful how disrespectful we are (present company included) to so great a gift…we can only pray “Come Holy Spirit and renew the face of the earth.  Regarding WYD it is really just “entertainment” for the youth a better and “real” WYD would be to pattern the event after the Children of Fatima…prayer, sacrifice and penance.  The stupid youth ministers, Eucharistic ministers, women in the sanctuary (except for their true role of Altar Guild), altar girls, disobedient priest and lay people and the stupid ecumenical nonsense has seriously harmed Our Most Holy Mother…at present we probably have exactly enough GOOD Priests for the number of true Catholics.  We keep getting messages like Lourdes and Fatima ...Penance, Penance, Penance but they are ignored Our Blessed Lord has said in Ezekiel 7:22 “I will turn away my face from them, and they shall violate my secret place: and robbers shall enter into it, and defile it.”  How sad but so true…May God have Mercy on us.

Let us be clear: When Benedict was asked what he perceived as the future of the Church he responded “...small, CONVINCED (my caps), communities..” When religion becomes merely helping the poor, there are Gov’t. agencies and “service clubs” (Rotary, Kiwanis, etc.) which very often perform the job more efficiently. FELIX CULPA above is pretty close. The Blessed Mother at Fatima and at Akita (1973) warned of a horrific chastisement “if mankind did not better itself.” We were warned to live simple lives and to pray every day (including the Rosary) for others as well as ourselves. In the absence of this broad resolve to correct ourselves, the Church is a “Paper Tiger” and will be doomed.

My daughter in law was baptized this Easter.  I got a lot of people asking me how I “did it”.  How did I talk her into it.  I didn’t.  I had a few conversations with her over the last 5 years and that was it.  But one of the things I said to her when she expressed a desire to be Catholic was “Don’t you dare do this for me!  We have enough Catholics in name only.  You do this because YOU want to or don’t do it at all.  We need strong, committed Catholics and I’d rather see you remain Jewish than be another body in a pew”.  All I can tell you is that she’s now a Catholic.  I think she’ll be a “good” one.

    On the other hand, I have a gay friend that loves his faith yet can’t quite give up the lifestyle.  He continues to go to mass and we don’t talk much about whether or not he is in a state of grace.  We had “that” conversation once, and that was enough.  By any standards, he would be considered a nominal Catholic at best, yet in his heart I know that he is as “Catholic” as I am.  His struggles are just different.

  I guess my point is that being Catholic means being on a journey.  There are Catholics that are there as a benefit to the whole body, and then there are Catholics who are there to benefit from the whole body…we should welcome them all.  This is a tough question.  Pruning is good, yes, but I’d rather use some miracle grow and see if we can’t jump start a fading garden.  A little fertilizer would go a long way.  A little sunlight shed on what it means to be Catholic wouldn’t hurt either.  Fellow Catholics need to get out their watering cans and get to work!

If one would listen to what our beloved Pope as said about the Church being smaller, you will find that he is talking about a Church that will be true to the faith and not about useless numbers. St. Augustine wondered about how many of the faithful that were filling the pews were “faithful” and I believe that it was Pope Benedict (maybe Pope John Paul) that wondered if the Church was full of “baptized pagans”? I can only guess what kind of comment will be posted, by “catholics”, real Catholics and non-catholic Christians. The Holy Bible tells us what to expect in these last days and how many times has our Blessed Mary warned us about not being right with Her Son? More than once has Jesus warned us about facing Him and telling us to depart from Him because He doesn’t know us?  Let us all pray for ourselves, out families, our neighbors, our enemies to be right with God. Have mercy on us all. +JMJ+

In Croatia about 90 % of people declare themselves as Catholics. All of them are as we say “culturaly Catholics”. They baptise children, they sign their children for Carholic Cathesis in government schools, so about 85 % of elementary and high school pupils attend catholic cathesis tought by CC delegated teachers paid by government, they marry in Church, they display catholic pictures and simbols at homes and working places etc.
Out of 4.500.000 people each sunday about a million attend Holy Mass.
  Some do not show to have personal faith, are not convinced that they are personally immortal, do not pray when are alone and consequently do not have sconscious personal contact with God etc.

  How it come. Personal faith is result of series of serious demanding decisiona and choosing which make such person a sincere followers of Christ who speaks through Catholic Church.
  Howewer some of people who as children psychologicaly dependant on parents and other adults accept cultural aspects of Catholic faith, but do not develope serious demanding decisions and positions to follow Jesus Christ.
  My wife and myself who started to lecture to groups of young peoploe planning to marry in Church in late sixties when we were 28 and 24, noticed that. We noticed that when we say to young couples that it is against Gods will or contraty to church teaching to do abortion or use contraception or divorce, they listen with respect, do not oppose our statements, but are not touched by our words.
  To remedy that we started to develope so called common sense arguments of justice, honesty, kindness, true love, constructivness, joy in life, quality of life, and paralelly promote true prayer, consciousness of personal immortality and active presence of God in life of each of us.
  That way we were getting results, so today Croatia is only european country in which number of families with three or more childen is growing, only about 12 % of woman use contraception, abortion is rare, low divorce rate etc.
  In one word cultural Catholicism is good. It give us good starting point for serious promotion of better life through application of Jesus Christ teaching passed through CC.
  One illustrative anegdot. During our defence war from 1991. to 1998. allmost all croatian soldiers were carriing Rosary around neck or at uniform. Once a priest commented to me that it would be better to not carry Rosary and swear or to get drunk. My answer and conviction was: “It is better to have Rosary around neck then some devil simbol. Rosary around a neck gives us oppoortunity and starting point to adress his behaviour.
  Final word. Catholic Church is today only Christian denomination which consequently apply justice, honesty, kindness, constructivity and love in allareas of human life. Has detailed, clear and unequivocal positions, publicly declare them and does not change for 2000 years. It is sad fact that all other christian denominations in bigger or smaller measure abandoned original christian ethical positions specially in area of family. All in some circumstances agree with abortion, contraception and sterilisation. Alloow second marriage despite first was valid etc.

In my opinion the matter is that we have to encourage participation during mass and forming groups (of work, charithy, formation and spirituality) in our parishes during the week.

I see (here in Spain) that most people go to the church as a theatre. The priest does “his show” and that’s it until next week!

The problem: INACTIVE CATHOLICISM.

So! Form groups! Study bible! Pray Vispers together! Help the Priest preparing the Mass and Help Him doing a “good job” during it! Etc etc… SING! PRAY! EVANGELIZISE!

IF we manage to make active half the assembly (or even a third!)... Parishes will revitalize on their own!

Greetings and Blessings to you all :)

It’s in the hearts of alot of Catholics that the Church has to get smaller before it will get bigger.  Letting anyone call themselves Catholic no matter whether they believe Church teaching or not has left us with bodies but not necessarily souls. In the Vatican II missal the “homily” after the gospel spoke about the early Catechumens wearing white robes for these eight days and how it impressed on them the need to keep the whiteness of their souls by fidelity to grace.  What a beautiful image and how foreign to twentyfirst century America.

I am one of those who go to Mass every week.  Usually the 4:00 on Saturday or 11:00 on Sunday…maybe the 6:00 pm Sunday night if I’m real busy with a project. But 9:00 and especially 7:00 am is way too early.
Besides, some converts are more religious because we CHOSE to be Catholic.

Likewise, it’s been often repeated that the 2nd largest denomination (not my choice of words) in the US is non-practising catholics :(

CC is gentrle mother. Loves everyone, respects everyone, hopes the best from everyone, does not excluse anyone.
  For catholics who attend Mass but do not behave as they should, intelligent analisis asks how they would behave if they do not attend Mass and abandon other contacts with CC.
  Every Catholic who has personal faith, personal contact with God through prayer, is convinced that he or she is personally immortal has CHOSEN to be such. Person from Catholic family in certain momentor monents during teenage or later has to make personal and free decision or decisions to accepting seriously Catholic faith and join seriously CC.
  Each human person is ethically free. Any influence positive or negative a person can accept or refuse.A person is author of his or her ethical positions and behaviour. A person can have any sort of inclination - positive or negative, but he or she decides which inclination to folloow and act upon and which to refuse.
  Out of love for everyone a Church tries any action to help Catholics and non Catholics to behave mor justly, honestly, lovingly, kindly and constructively, but is aware that joining CC is free and voluntary decision, and accepting Christ position as expressed through CC is free and personal decision.

Marijo, Perhaps we agree, but just to clarify, while the Church does not exclude anyone from attending, the Church does exclude some from reception of the sacrament of the Eucharist. And while the Church does love everyone and respect the human dignity of everyone, it does not accept every way of life. And while the Church does not exclude anyone, people do exclude themselves by rejecting the teaching.  And the Church has a responsibility not to allow or condone practices that will lead others astray or give false perceptions of the true teaching even if it means the person may no longer attend Mass.  Do you agree?

No, the Church is not a “paper tiger.” This has nothing to do with whether or not Catholics attend Mass, practice their faith, etc. Many Catholics behave shamefully. But the Church is not a paper tiger because, as then-Cardinal Ratzinger so beautifully put it in his book *Called to Communion,* the Church consists of the faithful gathered around the Eucharist. Hence, the Church is not about us—it’s about Jesus present in the Eucharist. That reality will conquer, no matter what. As I once heard Charles Rice say, “God isn’t sick. He’s not even tired.” He will triumph, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

It is a mistake to measure the potency of the Catholic Church in terms of quantitative criteria. The entire Church started as one man dying alone on a cross.

Paper tigers? Try all of Jesus’ disciples. Peter “the rock” denied him three times like a paper tiger. Judas in the end was more paper than tiger. And so on…

It is very ideologically democratic and of a mass society to continually consider the Church in terms of numbers (the most votes wins!). That is not the logic of the body of Christ.

Of course, there is another sense in which I agree with your concern. Namely, we could always stand (from the beginning) to have more true Catholics. I don’t usually quote Emerson but here it is quite to the point: “All of Christendom and not a single Christian.” Or rather, all the history of Christianity and only one true tiger—- Christ.

“I love thinking of Catholicism as being “mainstream” Christianity. After all, it has—by far—the most nominal adherents when compared to any other denomination of any other sect of an organized, unified religion. It would seem to reflect the whole, hey God founded our Church thing. But is that a paper tiger argument?”

## When I see that argument, I want to top myself - it is so bad, and utterly negated by the Bible. It is a form of “prosperity theology”, and faith in Christ is founded not on prosperity, numbers, fame, power, strength, power, force, but on faith in a bleeding, stinking, brutalised, flogged, naked, humiliated, vilified, rejected, dying, crucified Jew. That is how God is most fully and authentically revealed - on the Cross. That is God’s idea of a Messiah - the prosperity argument was rejected by Jesus as a temptation of the devil, which is why He rebuked Peter so terribly. America the Prosperous does not like the Cross - therefore the Cross must be preached.

So if the Church founds itself on prosperity, numbers, fame, power, strength, power, force, it is falling for a temptation of Satan. Satan offered Jesus Universal Kingship - at the price of recognising Satan as his overlord. Since the Kingship of God brought in by Jesus has for its purpose the establishment of the Righeous Kingship of God and the destruction of the tyranny of satan, Jesus would have been betraying the Will of His Father by recognising the one He came to overthrow.

God does not need our numbers, might or skill, but is their Source - so what if the Church has these things ? So did Assyria, Babylon, Rome, and other cultures. For Catholicism to have the most members who don’t practice, means only that it is more sick than other religions or churches. Numbers are absolutely no measure of grace - but people are take in by the outward impressiveness of gigantic numbers. Were the Apostles wrong, because they were as nothing compared to the heathen adorers of other gods ? Were they wrong because no Jews believed in Jesus, but them alone ? This number-worship is ridiculous - God is on the side of the poor, the humble and meek (Luke 1:46-55), not of the mighty, the strong, and the countless. And the God Who gives the Church evcery blessing, can with equal ease bring it down to the dust. It was very proud of itself in 1950s, & very fond of putting others down.

If Catholicism is not about Christ, it is worth nothing, no matter what other goods it may have. Take Him away, and it becomes totally meaningless. Cultural arguments are worthless, because a high culture is no proof of true faith. Otherwise the culture of Babylonia would be proof of the emptiness of faith in the God of Israel - it was the great king Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon who destroyed Jerusalem, not his vassal Zedekiah of Judah who destroyed Babylon. It is superficial to take external beauty & splendour as a sure proof of interior spiritual beauty & splendour.

Regarding manticore text I have following comment.
  Poverty in spirit I explain to myself means that a person shell do no injustice, dishonesty, even smallest, anything against true love and kindness in efforts to get money and other material goods, and same in spending and/or using money and other material good.
Person can live affluently and in that sense be poor in spirit. To be poor in spirit includes not to offend, humiliate or damage in any way other person or people in a way spending money or using material goods.
  Less injustice, stealing, corruption, bribe, refusing to pay decent salary, gambling, alchocholism, drug addiction, promiscuity, divorce,
laziness, reckless spending, more affluent people and more affluent society.Great part of any suffering is result of bad behaviour of people.
Traffic accidents,crimes etc. More goodness, justice atc more beautuful, joyful and succesful personal, family and social life.
  Regarding great number of so called non practicing catholics, in my opinion it is because a carholic faith is much more demanding, specialloy in area of family, then any other religion or christian denomination.
It is much more easier to give 10 % or more of earnings to church or needy then be honest, caring, tender, just, honest to spouses, all children, parents and other relatives. To live without marital infidelity, abortion, contraception, neglecting true needs of members of family is very demanding, but possible top everyone who uses methods offered by cath.church.
  All other christian denomination allow in some circumstances termination of life of unborn, inflicting serious illness of infertility by contraception, marrying second or third time despite firts marriage was valid.
  Many people like to be counted as catholics because true catholics are esteemed by all.

We Catholics are growing at a 14 million people yearly rate. If only 1 percent is pious and only 1 percent of pious are genious (a founder, a great preacher, a saintly influent woman, etc…) we gain 1.400 pious and genious people every year. Because of technology, these people will tend to be in contact, learn from each other and look for a work-team. Because of technology, a few people (The Ignatius and Teresas of our times) can reach millions. Never in history were there so many inteligent, creative, pious Catholics so able to work in teams and in nets, all around the world, in all languages and cultures. A real “glocal” group: the Catholic Church. I think in about 25 years we will be in a Catholic Golden Age if we evangelize and protect pro-life, pro-family and judeochristian ethics.

I know I am a johnny come lately to this thread, indeed this site.  But I have to comment on what Lroy wrote:  “Besides, some converts are more religious because we CHOSE to be Catholic.”

Maybe it is time for those who are cradle Catholics or culturally Catholic to choose to be spiritually and morally Catholic. 

Maybe this is what the pope is talking about.  Get rid of the riffraff.  Get rid of those who say “I am a Catholic,” but don’t live it. 

I am not talking about going to Mass every day or adoration or how you receive communion.  I am talking about knowing your faith and living it. 

Most cradle Catholics had at least 8 years of religious instruction either in a school or in a CCD program.

We Catholics must treat everyone as brothers and sisters regardless.

Remember the “pedophile pimp” leveled at Bishop McCormack recently. The comment was:
1. Not in keeping with the dignity of the office of the person who said it.
2. Essentially true.

The overwhelming majority of those who knowingly protected child rapists, even to the point of exposing more innocent children to attacks, are either still in positions of authority, or served out their normal time in their assigned position.

McCormack did in fact protect known child molesters and rapists. I think one news periodical had it right when it wrote that for an entire generation, the Church will alway be associated with this sick joke that the Bishops themselves wrote by their own hand for late night hosts and comedians. 

With it credibility still in tatters, and it’s moral currency now considered worthless, one understand why people like Bishop Dolan simply have not any stamina for a fight, and thus put up just enough of a struggle so as to be able to claim they tried.

Regarding note in a Max comment of one news periodicals, I think that we should remember that some priests, bishops or cardinals or pope if and when they do some wrong, unjust, dishonest against love or kindness, they do not represent the Catholic Church. One can not represent Catholic Church when he is doing something against Catholic faith and Cath.Church and consequently against Jesus Christ.Church is saint. I am Catholic as much as much I follow authentic ethical position of Church.Any informed person should have these facts in mind.Catholic Church is saint. Head of Catholic Church is Jesus Christ, not Pope, bishops and priests.Pope, bishops and priests when they speak truth about God, human person and relatuionship between human persons and God, and between human persons and human persons, they speak in name of Jesus.
Jesus, true God and true Man promised me and all other people that in Church we can find truth about Him and about us.At each Mass we confess our faith to God and Holy Catholic Church, not in anything any bishop or priest says or even Pope when he does not speak as Pope.

We will know the real answer to your question very, very soon. Just watch your local Diocesan Papers as well as the NY Times et alia especially after the upcoming “Al Smith” shebang. If Cuomo & Company can get their pictures taken “glad handing” and “back slapping”  all the clerical folks wearing red and sporting white collars while at the same time maintaining their support of Gay Marriage and Abortion then you will know that the “fix is in” and the American Catholic Church is a “Paper Tiger” ... and more importantly you will know one of the biggest reasons why it is a “Paper Tiger”. I wish and pray I am wrong but am not going to hold my breath ... the empirical data points since JFK all plot the same message: The Democrat Party “owns” the Catholic Church in America.