Father Jay Finelli has started “Day of Evangelization”. Parishes create information packets and then go door to door inviting people to the Church.

http://www.dayofevangelization.com

To hear his podcast about the event visit: http://www.ipadre.net/2011/02/13/ipadre-217-one-door-at-a-time/

Start a Legion of Mary Praesidium: http://www.legionofmary.ie/

We should also stop practises which drive people away. We have a newly ordained associate who insists on singing the Holy, Holy, Holy and the Lamb of god in latin. That is a real turn off. We should focus on liturgies and practises which unite us instead of those which divide us!

Oh, I have to respectfully disagree with JEC about not singing some of the liturgy in Latin.  I think it’s so beautiful when we sing Agnus Dei instead of “Lamb of God”. It carries over a little of that beautiful tradition. All of the rest of Mass is in English. I also think a good homily and welcoming fellowship outside of Mass helps.

I like the idea of returning Catholics adult faith formation. 

The absent Catholics I know have separated over some issue with church teachings in their past or something harsh said to them by a priest. Then they have been gone so long they fear returning.  (example, one person was told by a priest that her infant daughter who died of SIDS before baptism would not be in heaven. This was 17 years ago, but what a terrible thing to say to a grieving mother. The church’s position on death without baptism and purgatory (which has a negative connotation) could have been omitted or expressed in more loving manner.)  This woman feels the call to return, but is so scarred by the memory I don’t know if she ever will.

@JEC What problems do you have with the Lamb of God and Holy, Holy, Holy in Latin? I find it more beautiful and relaxing than the English versions. I don’t see it as a “turn off”.

How about making Catholic education tuition free again?  Invest in the youth!

Yeah, use your Facebook page to attract’m.
I have had a lot of friends see my posts about the average daily devotional life of a Catholic, and they start to ask questions.
I find it a lot less in your face than going door to door. St Francis DeSales used to put little handwritten tracts under the doors of ex Catholics to win them back . Fb is a lot like that. They can choose to read it or not.

Most parishes do not empower their parishioners.  The lone parish priest still tries to do too much with the result that some obvious changes and improvements don’t get done.
Many people found the issue of clergy abuse to be embarrassing and a turn-off.  There is nothing wrong, and a lot right, with also having married clergy.  Acknowledging that the overall mission of Church is to save souls and bring Christ to people and vice versa, allowing for married clergy would be a positive step in that direction.

The door to door approach is a good idea. Here in the Bible belt lots of other churches do this. We also get flyers in the mail for various churches from time to time, especially around Christmas and Easter.

Adult catechism classes are an excellent idea. Many Catholics’ knowledge of Church teaching is sorely lacking. This makes them prime targets for well-meaning but misinformed Protestants who are out to “save” them. We need to evangelize our own, and teach them what the Eucharist is all about.

The ideas mentioned are good, but what about using modern media?  Television ads?  Why not?  One would think that we are smart enough to use the #1 means of cultural communication to our advantage.  A national compaign to not only invite fallen away Catholics home but an ongoing, never ending campaign to explain the basic teachings of the Church.  If done professionally using ordinary Catholics to “witness” in 30-60 sec spots, watch the pews fill.  To run w/ wolves and snakes, we have be as clever as they are.  The call to use such modern communication from the Second Vatican Council has never been fulfilled.  Instead, the Church relies on grass roots efforts to do this.  It’s time for the Bishops to lead rather than watch from the sidelines.

Allowing clergy to marry does not help reach inactive Catholics.  It changes the Church to suit inactive Catholics. 

I am a fairly recent convert, coming up 3 years, and I LOVE the Latin chants we rarely sing: Agnus Dei, Ubi Caritos!

“We need a new apologetic, geared to the needs of today, which keeps in mind that our task is not to win arguments but to win souls. Such an apologetic will need to breathe a spirit of humanity, that humility and compassion which understand the anxieties and questions of people.” - Pope John Paul II.

Yes! Sounds like a very good idea @ Steve.

A contribution may be more stories/witnesses in the Catholic Church of the modern times that have come to some kind of fruition/blessing ‘through’ Sacred Scripture.  Sadly, it seems that modern technology is reaching millions with programs, books, web sites, media, which point to the overcoming power in man ‘without’ the true giver of the word from the Gospel.  The Saints still walk among us with stories/witness that we can resonate in this modern time, as well, today.

Never shy away or abandon our Latin rubrics, hymns, etc. We’re Catholics, right? Not Roman Catholics because that’s a nickname given to us by the Anglicans, especially the more high-brow Anglicans here and in England so they could rather snootily “differentiate” between their more “propah” and American/English Catholics and those folks adhering that cranky old stuff coming out of Rome, etc. While it’s amusing for us to look back on the high-brows attempts to separate themselves even further from the ONLY Catholic Church, the One and Only founded by Christ, we have to remember how rapidly we allowed this distinction to take hold of American Catholic society (perhaps because a lot of us were more than happy to help us both make that distinction, albeit for obviously different reasons. LOL

And this explains in large part why we see so many parishes calling themselves St. Mary’s, St. Joseph’s, St. Augustine’s, etc. Roman Catholic Parish. (Boy, does it help to make sure the “RC” is put next to the last saint’s namesake parish because the Episcopalians will in good jest pounce at the first moment to harrumph a bit and ask, “WHICH St. Augustine” are you referring to? (We’d still win that joshing duel since the one they claim as the “founder of the Church of England” was appointed by no less than a pope, thus making that St. Augustine a what?

Why did I share this hypothetical back n’ forth “dialogue” or good natured joshing contest? To give any fallen away Catholics, some of whom may be attending Episcopal parishes, and even become Anglicans, a reminder of their history, their full history, and demonstrate how humor can do wonders to bridge gaps of misunderstandings and bring far more comfort into what could be very contentious and frutiless arguments. Pride is a bittersweet block of baking chocolate that can only be made to taste better by copious additions of sugar or artifical sweetners. It melts and this melting can only help make a one time bitter person soften up and become more ameliorative (spelling?) and willing to listen to a friendly invite home.

Relatives’ exhortations, lecturing, hectoring, going beyond leaving a very occasionally extended friendly inviting “hint” won’t do any good.

Cardinal Newman said the most loving Christian thing we can do for others is to lift many intercessory prayers to God, Mary, all the saints, your favorites, not-so-favorites, the venerables (Don’t forget Cardinal Newman!He only needs one more miracle!) awaiting their final canonization ... and your dearly departed loves ones, parents, grandparents, late-spouses, late-children—and they don’t have to be just Catholics, notwithstanding what Protestants teach, they’re still your loved ones and they can hear you and help you reach that special person in your life to help him or her come home.

If that special person, happens to be non-Catholic, yet possesses an honest, but not prejudiced, desire to remain Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, new ager, agnostic, atheist, whatever ... pray even harder for that person, respect his/her wishes and leave them alone once you’ve given your kindest invitation. Nobody likes being pressured.

Sadly, some of the most intransigent anti-Catholics in the world are fallen away Catholics and I’ve encountered more than a few in an Evangelical church my family and I belonged to (when I’d strayed for roughly 15 yrs.) Ironically, it was their embittered attitudes and willingness to accept whatever lines their new pals would use “Have you heard the gospel lately in your roman catholic church? Our brand new community church’s vibrant pastor really gets into it.” Maybe he does, and maybe he can talk circles around shy Fr. Milquetoast. Well, we know what “Pastor John” can’t do, but one thing we can’t do to bring the fallen away member home is to “go militant” in rapid response.

We have the Eucharist and a liturgy that literally is a Passoin Play, Gospel and OT Lesson all put together in one hour,  including both the homily and the sharing of the Real Presence of Christ at Communion time.

A simple, loving reminder to our fallen away members in this fashion will do much more to bring them home than hours spent chewing over the fat of which group of Christians did what to whom way back in (pick your date.)

The idea is to bring people home to their Catholic roots and home. Nobody argued me back into the faith. I simply realized that after listening to other arguments—especially some eye roller howlers in a Church history class taught in an evangelical congregation…which impressed me for their gutsiness to delve into the “missing 1,000 years between the reign of that Constantine who turned pure Christianity into ROMAN CATHOLICISM,” and learning more about the real differences between Protestantism (or worse the emotional desert of non-belief ... thank God I never hit that patch)... I simply decided it was time to come home for good. I was also greatly assisted by the Coming Home International apostolate of Marcus Grodi and watching his Journey Home show ... but when I watched all the events surrounding Pope John Paul II’s slow death, the funeral, and Benedict’s election, I knew it was time to knock on the Church’s perpetually lit back door, play the role of the prodigal son and ask forgiveness. My story’s a lot more complicated, but that’s for another forum and time. The point is, nobody worked me over and in fact, a now departed dear friend who was my past Grand Knight in our local KofC Council was beaming when he saw me at a funeral Mass of the priest who co-officiated my mixed wedding ceremony ... and what did my good friend tell me (?) ... something even my departed parents hadn’t bothered to “remind me” (because they knew I’d never DARE to leave and break their hearts while they were alive lol ... I laugh now, but causing the “big one” and saddling myself with that guilt wasn’t the way I wanted to see them pass on after a long fulfilled life of loving care and devotion to the Lord)—my good friend, who was also a convert from Protestantism, said out loud, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.”

Prayerfully, respectfully, and always lovingly, give our fallen away brothers and sisters in Christ the reminder I received. It was the relief before THE relief of realizing I was home again. The furniture still looks tattered, the old stains on the rugs were patched over by magazines left strategically placed on the floor and maybe the it needs a good coat of paint and new lighting ... but This Old Catholic House has stood for 2,000 years because her foundations have been set and maintained by the builder who gave His keys to St. Peter. Sometimes the house has been badly served by her occupants, but one fact remains; THERE SHE STANDS, PERMANENTLY, SECURELY AND LOVINGLY SO.

A condensed form of RCIA for inactive Catholics, especially for those who have made their sacraments, would be a wonderful idea. This would be an inviting atmosphere where one could learn the faith and be re-catechized. I wish we had something like that now because I would certainly attend the classes even with my already busy schedule because I consider learning my faith to important.

Thanks Jason for sharing my links.

On March 26, 2011, we will be sending people out in twos to visit every home in our parish territory.  They will have a packet that I have prepared with information about the Catholic Faith and our parish.  Please pray for our Day.  You can find a lot more info at http://www.DayOfEvangelization.com

BEFORE WE CAN REACH THE INACTIVE CATHOLICS, WE NEED TO REACH THE ACTIVE CATHOLICS.  One cannot love what one doesn’t know, nor successfully sing the praises thereof.  Of the 32%, how many really know the faith well enough to present it and defend it? 

Truth and orthodoxy are the keys.  We have seen the disaster of the past few decades during which way too many Catholics have been changed by the culture rather than changing it.  People naturally desire and search after truth, not a watered down version of it.  Kumbaya doesn’t cut it. 

Sound catechesis for children and adults is essential.  Good teaching sermons would be very helpful.  Which religious orders prosper and increase?  Clue:  the un-habited ones are uninhabited.  Reverent liturgies, Eucharistic adoration, Marian devotions, treating Confession seriously and scheduling it as if people are expected to be there.

Back to those sermons, more discussion of some of the most prevalent sins, even the third rail of artificial contraception and much less partisan political prosthelytizing from the parish pulpits and the diocesan newspapers.

Good idea, SJ, about making Catholic education free. But first we must be assured that the education is Catholic. From what I hear, not all of it is. I’d happily donate a scholarship in my parish but I am not sure it is worth it.

Why not start teaching things that have Eternal Value? Many Catholics, perhaps even most, are not in the Body of Christ, but they are indeed “members” of the Roman Catholic Church.

It’s time for priests, bishops, and the Magesterium to teach the Bible.  All of it.  Not take verses out of context, and read only chopped up verses, in segments.

Last Sunday, only one local parish read the whole Gospel = yes, it was long.  But the other parishes I know of, only read unbracketed parts, leaving out teaching on 1) how to handle conflicts among believers and 2) divorce and, if memory serves, lust.  That was fine for the magesterium, that put in the brackets.  But was it wise?  No.

If Catholics are just “Catholic”, and not “Christian”, it’s no wonder Christians have for years asked about us, “Are Catholics Christian?”  For too many Catholics, the answer is NO.  The devil believes Jesus is the Son of God.  That’s not all there is.

Many priests are poorly educated in the Bible.  They know how to fundraise.  For too many, they are just “Sacrament Dispensers”.  To get more people to come back to the church, TEACH the Bible.  If these people are already in Bible-honoring non-Catholic churches, it’s not likely they’ll ever return.

Fr. Jay - you sound special.  Perhaps none of what I wrote applies to you.  Good going!  I’ll check out your link.  Thank you -

It all starts at the pulpit with the parish priest. He must moviate the Catholics at each Mass with the topic of catechsis. Then tell them to go and invite their neighbor to attend Mass with them. The priest must go back to the basics of our Catholic faith. We Catholic adults lost forty years of instruction in our faith due to lack of catechetical teaching.

Maybe it’s time to FIRST focus on retaining the 32%.  PWROSEY above is correct.  A huge percentage of Christian Evangelicals are former Catholics.  I’ve had discussions with them.  Their churches have something going almost everyday and night plus teaching classes on Sunday apart from the main worship service.  Except for one night a week for RCIA, my parish center is like a ghost town.  We bring people into the church and then what?  You’re on their own. 

Catholic parishes largely ignore singles, single mothers, the divorced and especially seniors.  What is more attractive to inactive Catholics —Christian churches who welcome them?—or Catholic parishes who continually fail to minister to the needs of “all” the people?

I agree w/ CARROLL85541 and New Observer.  Other than the “Catholic Car Wash of Sacraments”, thought to impart grace because an ordained priest or bishop is presiding over them, the local churches around here are ghost towns too.

Not everyone is superstitious anymore, thinking a baby must be baptized, or in the case of early death, the child’s soul does not go with God.
Most bishops are now seen as incompetent - and they are.  JPII did a poor job of appointing bishops that tow the line, not wanting to rock the boat, not TEACHING AND PREACHING on their own, and demanding the clergymen in their diocese teach and preach, as CARROLL85541 points out, the “basics of our Catholic faith”.

Much of what is in the catechism, such as the DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, is accurate.  But seminarians are woefully ignorant of it.  They can’t teach it, as priests.  So what’s the draw?  Being Catholic is for too many, like membership in a local country club.  Yet, eternal life is at stake.  I sat down and read the Bible.

I compared what I read with Christian radio, conservative and orthodox preachers, like John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Chip Ingram, RC. Sproul, J. Vernon McGee, those that teach the Bible VERSE BY VERSE and in an expository manner - exposing the truth in it.

Best thing I ever did.  Catholics are guaranteed NOT to find that in the average Catholic church.  Though one Bible study that’s good, and I took the 24 week class and the 8 week class on Acts of the Apostles, is Jeff Cavin’s “A Jouorney Through the Bible”.  It’s 97% accurate.  As good as we can get, in a Catholic church.  Worth attending - it’s a DVD course at your local parish.

Awesome topic - and suggestions!  I did not have time yet to peruse all of the comments, but #1 - Latin is a beautiful language, and I could see inactives maybe finding a High Mass in Latin to be a turn off (in the beginning of their con/reversion anyway) but two songs really cannot be an excuse for being turned off to Truth, can it? Seems a little shallow.  Must be something deeper than that.  And, #2 - FREE CATHOLIC education would be spectacular!  Free being capitalized because I am homeschooling because I cannot afford a good Catholic education (and before anyone starts the ‘you’re not prioritizing or sacrificing’ rant, please consider that you do not know our situation).  Catholic being capitalized because there are so few Catholic schools (on the secondary and post-secondary levels especially) that are Catholic in name only.  I know of a fantasitc Catholic elementary school that every year, at the beginning of school, the teachers swear an oath of loyalty and fidelity to the Magesterium.  Unfortunately, that school is 45 minutes away, but it is beautifully, wonderfully and faithfully Catholic. 
OK, off the soapbox (sorry, I have 4 of 6 family members sick and my DH is one of them.  No one to talk to right now…)
Reaching inactive Catholics needs to be a twofold approach.  #1 is reaching out to them in some of the ways mentioned in the article, #2 proper catechesis and faith formation so that our youth (and semi-actives, i.e. the ones who attend Mass regularly but do the 50 yard dash for the car after Communion and are never seen at church or participating in anything that does not happen on Sundays) are much less likely to become inactive in the first place.  I think Father Corapi said “There is not one person on earth who hates the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they believe the Catholic Church is.”  With proper catechesis and faith formation, we could maybe change that…..

I am hoping no one will notice, but I need to correct a typo:  “Catholic being capitalized because there are so few Catholic schools (on the secondary and post-secondary levels especially) that are Catholic in name only.”  Should have said “Catholic being capitalized because there are so few Catholic schools (on the secondary and post-secondary levels especially) that are more than Catholic in name only.”  Sorry :)

Unfortunately for every Fr. Jay there are six Fr. Burnt-outs.  We need pastors - it should not make a difference whether they are single or married.
Until parish priests and the bishops give more control of the parish and Church to people sitting in the pews the exodus will only continue.  People have a need for community - the more the better.  Community only on Sunday is insufficient to feed “hungry souls.”  We should learn about building community from Christian Evangelicals.  Passing out literature or knocking on doors inviting people to come to a Church that is only open on Sunday will not work.

We had our wonderful parish Priest over for dinner last night, and discussed this very topic!

Our good Pastor’s idea…have a pig roast this summer! 

Our family lives on a farm, so we will donate the pig.  The rest will be pot-luck.

Since the cost is relatively low, there will be no charge, and EVERYONE will be welcome.  We will set up the roaster outside the parish hall, and also set up games, etc, for the kids.

We hope it will foster fellowship in our Parish, and perhaps draw some fallen away people back, and maybe even some new people to the parish.

This is the “first step,” with more activities, and faith formation to follow.

I am one of that large percentage of Catholics that rarely attend mass.  I didn’t start out that way, though.  My parents and in-laws are both rigorously religious, and until my mid-twenties, I regularly attended mass as well. I still identify myself as Catholic, for the most part, but for me mass attendance has become more and more sporadic for a couple of reasons.  1- the churches in my area are not family friendly.  Oh sure, they have a nursery where I can deposit my children during mass, but they don’t include them.
2-The music is awful.  Seriously.  I’ve been to wonderful churches where the music ministry was the thing that made mass truly inspiring. It forged a sense of community and truly lifted the praise and celebration to another level. Where I live now? not so much. More like a funeral dirge.
3-Judgemental priests. I’ve been to mass where priests tell me who I can and cannot vote for, I’ve been to mass where a priest basically told us all about one parishioner’s private business to make his point about birth control.  Honestly, I don’t want a homily that’s fire and brimstone and holier than thou. I’d go to an evangelical bible-based church if that’s how I wanted to practice my faith.  I want a homily that puts the readings in context and illuminates how they can be reflections of my daily life. I don’t want a priest to stand up there and tell me how much better he is than I am.  He’s human, same as me. I want a homily and mass that lets me leave feeling hopeful, more positive, and with a deeper understanding of my faith. Not one that makes my blood pressure spike.
4-More and more I disagree with some of the policies of the catholic church under Benedict.  I feel like the church has been moving backwards in terms of being more inclusive and understanding about today’s world and the complicated problems of that world.  The sex scandal was part of it, but there have been other policies that make me, as a human, cringe.  That’s my own issue, I know, but if affects my mass attendance.

This is a great subject, and one that is so much needed.  Pastors are supposed to be “fishers of men”, not “aquarium watchers” as many are.  They fail to recognize their duty as a pastor to get the Good News out to everyone that lives within their parish area, even non-believers, as stated in Canon Law 771.2.

The very best tool that we have to get fallen-away Catholics back to the practive of their faith is the “Feast of Mercy”/Sunday of Divine Mercy which offers the total forgiveness of all sins and punishment.  There is no greater feast or parish event that will fill them with so much grace.  We need to go door to door and put out the invitation in the newspapers.

To Shelly of Sound Mind and Spirit - I was re-reading the posts and just focused on your friend that lost her child to SIDS 18 years ago, and who was told by a priest the child was not in Heaven, because the infant was not yet baptized.  I am SO very sorry to hear that.  It is inaccurate.

You may want to share with your friend that a few years ago, there was a gathering of clergy from all over the world, that went to the Vatican to debunk the idea of Limbo- this happened because women in 3rd World countries were having many babies that died without yet being baptized, and they (unlike American and European women) simply did NOT ACCEPT that their precious little ones were not with God. 

Much of what happens in our Roman Catholic church is the result of public demand, and depends on how well accepted are their extra-biblical practices and teachings.

If only more of us pew people would read the Bible - and insist that our clergy read the Bible too- and teach it, verse by verse.  Of course the soul of her little child is in Heaven, with Our Father.

LD,if you could find a parish where the priest did concentrate his homily on the subjects contained in that day’s assigned readings, you’d find this happening in 99 percent of all parishes across the land. Priests have some latitude when structuring their homilies to the reading’s subject matter, but they avoid doing so for good reasons, some of which you mentioned above. As sinners like you and I, they, too understand how easy it is to get whipped up about a topic and go off on tangents and what trouble that’d bring in turn. Furthermore, because of the Mass’ liturgical order, they (and their liturgical separated brethern in Episcopal and Lutheran pulpits) have only so much time to stick to the readings and maybe put in a few words about recent events in their communities, their states or nation, etc. insofar as they connect to the Church’s Teachings. No oratorical fulminations of the likes many evangelical preachers have long been famous for. Surprisingly, for all that the anti-Catholics love to portray us as the monolithic busybody, and a foreign power-busy body (don’t ever believe that old canard’s been abandoned) our clerics are fastidious when it comes to obeying the letter of the IRS’ restrictions…something it doesn’t seem to bother applying with equal force on Protestant churches, especially in Bible Belt megachurches. At least Sen.Charles Grassley (R-IA)showed the guts to take on the most egregious moochers and law-scoffers who’ll blab on any top without respect for even the letter of the law against politicizing the pulpit. If a Catholic priest did that, his bishop and diocese would be hauled into the nearest IRS offices and on the Church’s dime, too.

Ask any bishop or priest what happens when he stands up for illegals, notwithstanding the Church’s long TRADITION of insisting that we be hospitable to strangers? The IRS won’t be a stranger in his office on Monday. And the same goes if Fr. or Bp. Jones speaks out against gay marriage or abortion. The visciously anti-Catholic Harry Knox of the White House and AG Eric Holder won’t cool their heels in Father or Bishop’s reception room. They’ll be in his office and asking him to sit in his guest’s seat while they lecture to him and threaten to cut off thousands of dollars that could be used to help the neediest people in their respective parish/diocese.

While belonging to an evangelical church for 15 yrs, I yearned for a barn-raiser, and occasionally the pastor gave some. But he is of the newer breed of pastors coming out of Prot. seminaries that are more interested “teaching” about this or that event in the Bible—only—to the point I darn near wanted to scream “Enough already” with his every so precisely detailed way of describing the way shepherds of Jesus’ time tended to their flocks. There’s a whole world out there to use and apply the Bible’s message to. Even here they come up short because when they promote “biblical application,” it just applies to how we live our individual lives. Is this emphasis on “biblical application” to be just limited to the individual’s daily actions or inactions? No wonder the rising numbers of socially conservative/fiscally conservative evangelicals sigh and roll their eyes at the mere whispering of Social Justice and Social Gospel. The latter is mere heresy to them; the former outright apostasy and unpatriotic when applied to economic and social issues.

Fifteen minutes in and my family would be looking for the exit signs, especially when we’d already been barraged by “contemporary Christian Music.” There’s the soft-guitar hymnody found in many Catholic Masses or liturgical Protestant services.  Then there’s the blaring rock music TRASH that has no place in any religious ceremony. There’s nothing like listening to a schmalzy gospel tune on a Christmas Eve and having good taste in real Christian music (and your ear drums) culturally-speaking and literally physically assaulted-respectively, of course(!), all the whilst having your fanny massaged because some 15 yr old thought it’d be neat to crank up his bass and the “Assistant Pastor for Performing Arts” didn’t want to bother him on Christmas Eve to tell him to lower the near double-decker Airbus jet decibel level racket. But the coup de grace came when the ever “seeker sensitive” lead pastor spoke of stained glass coming between the Lord and us as He’s trying to reach His children.

Let’s see, God is kept from tapping on our shoulders because He can’t penetrate a stained glass window? Well! Didn’t Protestants remove the glass barriers for God five centuries ago? You couldv’e heard a pin drop on a carpeted floor if you asked all the Bible ONLY folks why all the artwork in churches their semi-religio-cultural-Bolshevik ancestors in Northern Europe and the British Isles had to be trashed if their purpose was to artistically render the Bibles lessons in artforms that the faithful could easily understand, appreciate and identify with. I forgot, that idolatry stuff’s verboten then and now. So it is with Islam and we know what conservative Protestants think of that “violent” religion, notwithstanding what their ancestors did to Catholic churches, cathedrals, basilicas, abbeys and convents across northern Europe and re-imposed with stern vigor in Calvinistic New England.

Another big difference your getting into within many of today’s evangelical Christian churches are the slickly packaged “sermon series” which—with apologies to the Marx Brothers whose movie titles seldom matched their plots, many of these “series” ever so carefully hawked in advance, are often canned—and seldom bear resemblance to the actual local concerns and needs of the congregants. Hope I’m wrong, but canned serial sermons seem to be replacing the Church Calendar in many evangelical circles. So much for the big evangelical emphasis on the “invisible” ecclesial body of like-minded people gravitating to their equally “independent-minded” local churches. One time I even heard a man saying when he came to church, he “didn’t want to be bothered” with the realities of life. And he has plenty of company which can be found in megachurches or small congregations that use their “worship style.” How can people say they’ve never been “exposed” to the Bible and Gospel in particular during Catholic Masses when the Liturgy…to be blunt…is nothing but the OT/NT and “Passion Play” all in one very sacred ritual. It’s not a come as you are freewheeling sort of thing. Nor is it an opportunity for some local “praise n’ worship team” to discover newer ways week after week to stretch out the same old songs that when broken down, contain little more than a handful of notes and maybe, three verses.

Evangelical Bible classes can be testers of patience, too. If you attend one on Sundays (or Wednesdays) at your “worship facility” you can count on long “on-the-spot” prayers before and after the classes, which if conducted by a “facilitator” who’s deep into detailitis … will surely test anybody’s patience.

Forget all the slick packaging because that’s all the evangelicals have if their services are not like ours or at least the Episcopalians and Lutherans; many of who believe the Real Presence is in their Communion. I’m not going to debate that with anybody but to highlight what’s missing even within Protestant denominations. But be ready for when you bring this up to an evangelical pastor, class leader or deacon, and he refers to our teachings about the Real Presence in the Eucharist, as a “human construct.”

Here’s all you have to say…providing you’re willing to ponder over what I’ve shared first, because it has to be in your heart most of all to say this with CONVICTION and stop any objections, or put-downs like “human construct” dead cold:

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and is forever protected from religious error, notwithstanding the sins of its clerics and laity. Protestantism is a five-century-long human construction progress that’s forever trying to figure out why square millstones can’t roll – in any direction.

My apologies if I was rough n’ blunt. But c’mon home because I hate to see another person commit some of the same theological blunders and later find himself dealing with the horrible sadness of a “churchman’s buyer’s regret.” C’mon home. It’s a big house and we have plenty of room and desire to welcome everybody and make them feel spiritually whole again.

Steven, now that your “rant” is over, should we expect a sequel?  We see you have made your choice.  Since you are happy with (and inside) the Catholic church —fine for you.  That is your right.  Apparently, though, you think everything in the Catholic church is perfect.  Many of us do not.  That is the reason why we have so many inactive and fallen away Catholics.

Your pure hatred of Protestants —notably Evangelicals is most alarming.  Next Sunday, try sharing your views with the man or woman sitting next to you at mass.  That person might be interested in what you have to say since they may have a parent, sibling or even a spouse or child who happens to be a god awful Evangelical.  It is wrong to paint all Catholics and all Protestants with the same brush.

I used to run a website that is still registered to me, I think - twentyfortyvision dot org - that involved first of all me sending letters to every priest requesting anonymous self-enclosed envelopes be returned with their survey answers. My own conclusion was that the priests had an incredibly diverse opinion on the subject as well but they all generally agreed that being the light of the world much as in the way early Christians were in the Gentile and pagan communities was the true answer. It didn’t matter so much what we did inside the confined safety of Church walls, but who we were outside Mass that attracted others to want to know what made us someone worthy of envy and emulation. There are still internal politics going on at Mass when certain people with paid or unpaid positions covet ownership of a Parish to the exclusion of others sometimes perceived there to fill the collection plate, and all I have to suggest, beyond having a “sponsor” or guide to visiting Catholics at Mass to “show them the ropes” is that visitors take the opportunity to look around to find the right Parish for them. It’s true that if I were to walk into half of the Parishes right now even in my own Diocese without giving the other half a chance, I would have never come back. But for others, the opposite selection of parishes may suit them better.

WOW….

lot ta pray for here!

Let you talk, come from your walk, and folks will ask you about your faith.

Fr Jay Rocks

+++BroJer

Matthew,

Great question. Below is my perspective as a practical catholic male:

I don’t do a good job of it, but I believe the key is to tap into the men in your social sphere, find ways of talking about the meaningful things (everlasting life), participation in mass and the sacraments, and offer prayers during hardships with full belief and hope that those prayers will be answered in God’s will.

The other venue is to share and invite men to active participation in the Knights of Columbus. Recent initiatives like the “Fathers for Good” website are great for sharing and the Columbia magazine always contributes to my spiritual growth. I think a lot of men just don’t know what they are missing.

I think that sharing Fr. Jeremy Driscoll’s “What Happens at Mass” would also be helpful. If more people who identify as Catholic UNDERSTOOD the mass, I think it would change a lot.

Just my two cents.
-Thadeus

Matthew, your suggestion to invite a fallen-away Catholic to Mass is hard for me to relate to, here in the Diocese of Rochester, NY, where we are so well known for inventiveness, not our Catholicity.  Holy priests here, as well as Catholic lay who desire reverence in the Mass, are marginalized and routinely demonized by Diocesan leadership (a dictatorial leadership, with an unwavering ideology of dissent, that has wrecked its ways here some decades now), so there are very few reverent Masses to choose to b found.  So, you can invite a non-practicing Catholic to a holy Mass, in its assigned remote or unsavory location, but how to explain to him why you are driving by so many other closer parishes?  Its a conundrum.

“Your pure hatred of Protestants —notably Evangelicals is most alarming.”

Really? If I had “pure hatred of Protestants,” would I have been able to stay married to my one and only (Protestant) wife, who isn’t interested in becoming a Catholic, for the past 27 years?

Since when has stating facts clearly from personal experience constitute “pure hatred”? I don’t hate anybody, you, or even the people who have mangled 2,000 years of Christian theology just to suit their present-day individualistic purposes. On the other hand, if I’m standing on a sidewalk and find somebody in danger of stepping into the street as a car is coming his or her way, don’t you think I should yell “Watch out!”?

Perhaps I was a little too blunt or too descriptive of the shallowness of much of what is accepted in contemporary evangelical worship, but my intentions were to wake LD and any others up to the the numbing-down of so many fallen Catholics’ intellectual understanding of their Faith and what this is doing to them in the long run.

Wasn’t I also voicing concern for the risks of what contemporary la-di-da evangelical worship is capable of similarly doing to other (more liturgical) Protestants?

Is Catholic theology perfect? Yes. Catholic theology is infallible. Catholic people are not. Pope Benedict has admitted this much over and over in the most contrite ways concerning the recent scandals and their cover-ups. That was one of the reasons I drifted away some twenty years ago when the first batch concerning the notorious Fr. James Porter was hushed up in the Fall River (MA)Diocese. This was and remains far worse than even Watergate or Clintongate on the national secular scene due to the participants involved. Okay, are you satisfied on that score? Or are you one of the people who’ll never be capable of separating the sins of individuals from the Deposit of Faith (Church’s Infallible Teachings) which it received from its founder, the only DIVINE FOUNDER of any church. Who founded the Protestant denominations? Any of them DIVINE?

Look, you have the Eucharist here, the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus in the Communion, not a symbolic communion offered once a month; BUT THE REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE BREAD AND WINE/BODY AND BLOOD.

Are you more willing to put your faith in a creation of man, a Bible, (and which of a wider number of Protestant “official, authorized versions”, than in the actual REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS during the Mass?

I know we Catholics can be arrogant, touchy, snide, cold (especially in the Northeast even in the dead of Summer!) ... but so long as the Body and Blood of Jesus is awaiting you in His house, your house as well, if you are indeed still a practicing Catholic, why trade the Creator in for a material creation of man?

Hey, it’s your soul and peace of mind.

Steven- You wrote, ” but so long as the Body and Blood of Jesus is awaiting you in His house, your house as well, if you are indeed still a practicing Catholic, why trade the Creator in for a material creation of man?”

Cradle’s Reply - if a person does not have the Holy Spirit living INSIDE of them when they arrive at Mass, no amount of eating the Body of Christ or drinking the cup of His Blood, will save them.  There is no salvation in church membership, be it Catholic or not.  We either have the Holy Spirit, and are saved, or we have the “spirit” of the world living inside of us, and we are not saved - or not yet saved….we have till our last breath, to decide to open the door to Jesus, when He knocks.

God knows the heart.  “Sacrifices and offerings I desire not, but a humble and contrite spirit.”  So that could be Catholic or Protestant, or non-denominational Christian.  There are no Roman Catholics in the Bible - and the first church was that in Jerusalem, Christians were first called “Christians” in Antioch.  Not Rome.

Our beliefs (the Deposit of Faith) all originate with Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, and our living out our beliefs, glorifies God.  So non-Catholics do not “trade the Creator in for a material creation of man”.  God is honored by anyone that goes to Jesus.  No one comes to the Father, but by me, Jesus said.

By putting so much emphasis on Rome, or the pope, etc. Catholics take a risk in losing sight of The Main Thing - being Born Again, in Jesus, and focusing on too many other trappings, that can lead us astray.

Since on this blog, there are only conservative Catholics, talking about music, other less controversial topics, I’ll share with all of you that I heard something recently that stunned me - and it was about Rome’s “other doctrine”, where they got carried away with Maryology about 150 years ago.

A pope wrote that Mary “Offered” her Son at Calvary, and that she became Queen of Heaven, the America’s etc.  While many Catholics may think that sounds good, who “OFFERS” Sacrifices?  Priests.

By getting carried away with Maryology, our own Vatican leaders may have jeopardized the Deposit of Faith, that would explicitly state that women are not to be ordained priests.  Scripture would prohibit women priests.  Tradition would NOT back up women priests (at least universal church tradition) - but…..

this pope of around 150 years ago, and his getting carried away with Mary, giving her more and more honors and clout, may have gone too far.  After all, if Rome wants to say Mary “Offered” her Son to God.  Then Mary was also the first ordained priest.  Can’t have it both ways.

This is why I follow Scripture - and if the Vatican agrees with Scripture, great.  I heed what they say.  If what they say differs with Scripture, I stick with His Holy Word.  Martin Luther had no choice but to not follow Rome in his day.  The good news now is that when we disagree with Rome, the clerics don’t kill you anymore.  Remember St. Joan of Arc?  Holy Spirit-filled men will take the Bible IN CONTEXT and not add to it, or subtract from it.

Steven writes:  “That was one of the reasons I drifted away some twenty years ago when the first batch concerning the notorious Fr. James Porter was hushed up in the Fall River (MA)Diocese.”

You had allowed men to harm and neutralize your relationship with Christ.  My brother-in-law in Pittsburgh, PA experienced the same.  When his mother died, he had to go “shopping” for another parish for her funeral because the pastor would not do the funeral for his mother.  Reason:  She did not contribute $$$ to the parish in the weekly collection.  After the funeral, he and my sister never stepped foot inside the church again.  He died last year —25 years later.  How dare that Pastor refuse to do the funeral for this woman in her 80’s?  How dare he !  And you want to know why we have inactive or fallen away Catholics?  There is one example for you.

All men are fallible and that includes Catholic Prests, Bishops, Cardinals and even the Pope.  We should not, however, allow their poor decisions, scandalous deeds or anything else distract us from our own relationship with Christ.  The same applies for Protestants who have been failed by some in their churches as well.

Cradle Catholic - why do you call yourself Catholic? It is quite clear that, while much of what you say is in agreement with being Catholic, you seem very clearly to be a protestant and adhering to some of your own traditions of men - such as private interpretation and perhaps sola scriptura.

I appreciate your contributions here to the discussion, but might I suggest a more accurate title since you are clearly not Catholic and don’t seem to understand a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches or what she is. I just don’t want other readers to get confused.

Thanks!

To Matthew- Please will you help me?  Frankly, I don’t know where I fit into the Roman Catholic church.  Here’s a bit about myself.  If you could PLEASE help me determine what I am, I’d really be grateful:

I was baptized Roman Catholic, as an infant.  My family on both sides has been Roman Catholic, for generations, coming from Spain and Italy.  Being Roman Catholis is so important to my family that my sister-in-law converted from Episcopalean to Catholic, in order to worship as a family, and my brother is Catholic to his core.

I went to Roman Catholic High School, taught by Holy Cross nuns, for 12 years.  Grammar School and High School. 

I never left the Roman Catholic church, going to Mass every Sunday, for all my life.  In fact, up until 5 years ago, I went to daily Mass.

All throughout school, and even into college and beyond, I believed 100% of what came down from the Magesterium, although SOME things I heard in high school sounded odd to me, like a nun in Religion class that told a classmate that had 5 kids in her family, “Unless your parents send ALL 5 children to a Catholic school, their souls are in jeopardy.” -

I thought that was odd, and helped soothe the crying girl, after class, telling her, “Catholic school wasn’t even IN the Bible.  How could anyone have to send ALL kids to Catholic school, or lose their salvation?”  By the way, the first 4 children were in Catholic school, but number 5, the baby, didn’t want to go and they didn’t force her.  She was in public school, and went to catechism.  Not good enough for this nun, a nice woman, but to this day, I believe this nun was misdirected.  The other 45 girls did not question the nun, and neither did the weeping classmate whose parents soul was supposedly in jeopardy.

The above recollection is the FIRST TIME I started to “sound Protestant”.
I did protest what the nun said.  But I did NOT do so in class, openly.  I just spoke later to my classmate, who was distraught, and who could not be consoled, even though 3 other girls were around me, with ALL of us trying to soothe her, and talk some sense into her.

The distraught classmate is probably one of the “inactive Catholics” you write about in this article, Matthew.  But before and after that, I accepted ALL the doctrine, dogma coming from the Vatican - and even writing “JMJ” for Jesus, Mary and Joseph, at the top of all my pages in school for the nuns.  The Holy Family did not seem odd to me.

Though I did begin to wonder why when Jesus grew up, so many of us still treated Him as a child or even “Baby Jesus.”  And Mary’s Month - October and May, singing how she was “Queen” of Heaven and Earth.  Still - no big deal.  I went with the flow.  No questions asked.  Am I still Catholic? 

I never left the Roman Catholic church to go to any other denomination.  I’ve always loved the Mass, and I do believe that the Roman Catholic church has it “right” on many counts - such as:

1- Being 100% Pro-Life (I’m even against the death penalty, and instead believe we need prison reform) against all forms of abortion.

2- Being pro=Traditional Marriage - one man and one woman

3- I do part with the Vatican on its support for ILLEGAL aliens.  Rather, I believe there needs to be LEGAL immigration.

4- Being against women priests - per Scripture and per universal Church Tradition, ordained clergy are to be MEN.

5- The Vatican is careful about ordination of homosexual clergy - and that’s good.  Homosexual inclinations will not automatically lead to the molestation of children.  But it CAN lead to the abuse of teenage boys, or even the abuse of other men, or the abuse of women, with deprived and confused clergymen not knowing “who” they are, and “experimenting” sexually.

6- I believe in the Real Presence - Body and Blood, because Jesus said, “Unless you eat my Body and drink my blood, you do not have life within you…” and “This is my Body, this is my Blood… Do this in memory of me.” - Jesus did not say the bread and wine “represented” His Body or was a “symbol” of His Blood.  If there is a way to interpret Scripture in a LITERAL sense, and IN CONTEXT, with the rest of the paragraph, chapter, I take it literally.

So far, Matthew, am I a Roman Catholic? If not, what am I?  I’d really like to know, and I ask you, respectfully.  Because you’re not the first person to tell me, “You sound Protestant.”  I would not know where to worship as a Protestant.  Because, well…. I’ve always been Roman Catholic. 

With that said, after having read the Bible, from cover to cover, and accepting it as written to ME, I did the following:

1) I accepted the fact that I am a sinner, and I was separated from a holy God, by my sin.

2) I repented of my sin, and I turned TO Jesus, accepting His perfect sacrifice at Calvary as payment for my personal sins.

Now - that was new to me.  Prior to reading the Bible, I went to Mass as a duty, and to obey the keep the Lord’s day holy command.  I did so to keep the Church “rule”, not out of love for God.  It was out of guilt.

3) But I began to notice matters of ETERNAL VALUE became very important to me, and I had a dread of offending a holy God.  Not due to fear, but, when I read the Old Testament, and saw how compassionate and patient He is, I did not want to grieve Him.  So I started to change my behavior, as a result.  I could NOT KEEP AWAY from the Bible - I began to love it.  I loved learning about what was important to my God, and my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. 

4) I began to hang around other Christians - many of them also Roman Catholic, and those that had read the Bible, and had the same experience as me.  I remember thinking, as I read the Bible, “WHY DIDN’T THEY TEACH ME THIS IN SCHOOL?” - I think to the nun that made my classmate cry, telling her parents that do not send their children to Catholic school lose salvation.  As an adult, I could SEE that was untrue, though the nun was not trying to be hurtful. 

Further, from reading the Bible, I do not believe the Holy Spirit or Jesus “obeys” the priest, or that the priest has “some special power” to “bring us Jesus”. Or that without a priest, all the Roman Catholic pew people would be up a creek without a paddle, because Jesus will only show up, with a priest there.

The ONLY thing that separates me (and the Catholic friends that are in a Bible Study with me) from other pew people is I read the Bible, and I STAYED!!!  Who knew!!!

So many Catholics either leave completely for other Bible-believing churches.  Or they go to Mass to worship, and right after, I know many that go to Protestant parishes to learn the Bible.

Several Catholics I know are in something called “Bible Study Fellowship” which is a 5 year program.  Catholic pew people are hungry for the Word of God - the Bible.  Not so much the extra=biblical teachings, or bits and pieces of the Bible, taken out of context. 

This article is about reaching inactive Catholics.  I thought about being “inactive” - or, as it’s described in France, a “Non-practicing Catholic”.  They stay home but there are not Protestant.

The odd thing is that many Christians ask us, “Are Catholics Christian?” I don’t know the answer to that either.  I suppose we’re partially Christian, and partially Vatican followers.  It’s like Jesus is supposed to obey the Pope, because when Jesus gave Peter the keys, it was as if Jesus took a “Hands-off” position, and He turned over the Church to the pope.  Then Mary started to take over, and the multitude of saints.  Outside of what I can SEE in Scripture, I just don’t buy it anymore.  If the Vatican teaches things that can be proven in Scripture = great.  If not, I go with the Bible.

We have so many OTHER extra-Biblical teachings.  How would you answer it?
Are Catholics Christian?  I’d rather be known as “Christian” than “Roman Catholic”.  When I face God the Father, and Jesus, they will not ask me “Are you Catholic?”  They will ask me, “What is Jesus to you?” - And He promised, “If you deny me, I will deny you.” - I am a CHRISTIAN.

But I’ve spent an entire lifetime being Roman Catholic, worshipping in Catholic Mass. If you can come up with another way to describe me, OTHER than Roman Catholic, now knowing my history, I’d sure like to know it!  Respecfully, I thank you.

New Observer replied to me regarding my leaving the Church earlier over the Fr. James Porter scandals in Fall River, MA: “You had allowed men to harm and neutralize your relationship with Christ.”

Interesting. You certainly have my empathy and while I couldn’t in a million years claim to know a pinch of the pain you’ve endured, there is still a vast difference between the theological foundations of the Church, all her teachings in Scripture, Tradition, etc., and what those sick Judases did.

As for no human being being infallible, you’re correct. But even here there’s a clear distinction that even some very astute evangelicals I know comprehend quite well. Only when a Pope, after extensive consultations with hundreds of theologians, his immediate Curia, et al, on a certain key fundamental basic understanding of Catholic theological teachings, will he declare it to be an infallible, i.e. free of error and perfect, teaching for all the loyal members to assent to.

Count how many times the popes in the past three centuries have invoked Papal Infallibility and compare those numbers, (hint, fewer than you have fingers in a single hand) to how many evangelical preachers expound on the infallibility of their Bibles, which may or not contain beaucoup errors of translation, or even deliberate editorial alterations to “boost” the Protestant war cry of By faith and scripture alone. In some evangelical churches, where the chief pastor is given a wide sway and lots of clout when it comes to enforcing what he wants his congregants to hear and take in as infallible based on the version he’s using, not to mention the very force of his “dynamic personality, and preaching gifts” ... on any given Sundays and Wednesdays.

If you or anybody were to look for a church that was unblemished by sexual misconduct by the clergy and/or laity, you might as well stop wasting your time and start your own. Oh, but then you’ll have the fun of policing yourself while trying to also help people you’d like to have join you about the difference between your theological teachings and the misdeeds of your wayward members and God please forbid more of this, your clergy.

How do those shoes feel?

@ Cradle Catholic,

With all due respect, you and I have had many conversations, and I can’t help but like you!  You always come across as sincere.

With that said, when I read Matthews post to you, I thought to myself “That is exactly what I have been thinking.”

The name “Cradle Catholic,” implies (to me, anyway,) a person rock solid in their Roman Catholic faith.  However, you seem to want to show how the Roman Catholic Church “has it all wrong,” more often than not.

Remember our lengthy discussion on celibacy?

What would you think about a name like “Questioning Catholic?”

Kathy16670: Sometimes I can be really dense.  Please forgive me.  I just understood it was only my BLOG name in question, not my denomination.  I thought Matthew was questioning my being Roman Catholic, as if I were really a Protestant posing as a Roman Catholic.  If it’s just my blog name, I could call myself anything - like “Pat”.

To me, the most important point is what am I theologically?  Am I Roman Catholic, or am I not?  That’s what I was asking in my last long post, even though Matthew was apparently going someplace else with his comment to me- referring to my blog name.  I missed that.  Sorry. 

To me, what has eternal value comes down to what Jesus asked His apostles, “Who do you say that I am?” -  My answer to Jesus is the same as Peter’s was.  So does that make me a Cradle Catholic or not?  Who knows.

Does it make me 1/3 Catholic, or 1/2 Catholic, or 1/4 Catholic, or 100% Protestant?  What label can I wear?  I’m glad you like me - you too, come across as sincere.  Right now, I’m sincerely confused as to what denomination I belong to.

I’m not as fortunate as the Nancy Pelosi’s and the Ted Kennedys’, the Joe Biden’s and the John Kerry’s of the world that are proud to call themselves, Roman Catholic, and for whom church leaders bend over backwards to accommodate, as Roman Catholic “faithful”.  Like when Congressmen Joe Kennedy was able to annul his marriage to a Protestant woman (Christian mother of his two sons) that did not want the divorce.

He was able to dump her for another woman, getting his anulment.  Now, I would think that was wrong.  Again - it would make me a “Protestant”.  Protesting that move.

But our esteemed Church leaders thought it was fine, agreeing with him to end the marriage, because he is such a fine Roman Catholic, and he wanted to marry another woman.

There is NO question all the supporters of abortion, even late term (what I would call infanticide), and same-sex marriage (what I would call an affront to God) are excellent Catholics, and in good standing with the Church.  Again, I would be “Protestant” - protesting the church leaders’ decision.

But these tow-the-line Catholics, so accepted by the institutional Church are not considered “Protestant” for their pro-abortion, pro-same-sex marriage views.  I find that odd.

Frankly, if these Roman Catholic politicians WERE non-Catholic, and they belonged to a Bible-believing Church, there would be a way for their church elders to reel them in, and either correct their behavior or they’d be publically removed from Church membership, until they recanted their position.

But not in the Roman Catholic church.  No - they are tolerated, loved, accommodated, and told they are wonderful examples of Catholicism.  I must protest.  So it looks like they are Catholic.  But, I’m not?

While I’ve drawn a distinct, and admittedly sometimes “hardline” definition of the gap between the Church’s theological and historicial foundation, Divine through Jesus, no less; far be it from me to classify somebody as a half, quarter, third level Catholic. My mother, God rest her soul, never departed from the Church and made no bones about her displeasure with anybody who did in our immediate and close extended family. But she was also pro-choice. Would anybody in this forum dare to call my mother, who after giving birth to two boys, battled a near fatal bout with malaria and at least three miscarriages before I came along five years after my middle brother ... less than a full Catholic. If so and this accusation stands within this forum and the paper, I’m outta here; and damn gladly, too.

My views about abortion are much more conservative than hers which she shared with me about a year before she died from a painful long death due to liver cancer. She was concerned about me becoming stiff-necked in my views and rightly so because I can be. I’ll admit it with some apologies to folks in this thread and others in NCRegister. I was a younger reporter who was working for a diocesan paper and my wife and I just had our first of four children way back in the mid 80s. This was her loving request for me to lighten up a bit on others; not principles, but the way we judge those who’ve sinned. After all, we’re all sinners and be thankful that as Catholics we also have the Sacrament of Confession before receiving Him in Mass.

The Church and her most loyal members, however strongly they disagree with her on abortion or other issues, has always held her arms open, the porch light on and doors unlocked. Can’t we do just as much? It’s one thing to shake our heads at Min. Ldr. Pelosi, VP Biden and Sen. Kerry, it’s another thing to play God and judge them. That’s God’s job, not ours. If we want to “excommunicate” them from Capitol Hill, we have the voting privilege to use. But we don’t have any right to assume mantles of pride-filled self-righteousness and stand on soapbox pulpits playing Torquemada. For inasmuch as we may detest their political views on abortion, and that of President Obama, they are still our constitutionally elected leaders, deserving of our [yes, some modicum of patriotically inspired civic respect, however odious that no doubt will strike many Register readers.]

This catagorization of fellow Catholics, or even Christians by mathematical degrees or portions is out of place in this or any responsible website/publication; especially one now owned by EWTN. Yet, inasmuch as I respect the network and love watching it, if I thought for a moment it veered into the business of calling people out and shaming them for not measuring up to either the network’s or NC Register’s standards for what meets the minimal qualifications for being a Catholic; farewell.

If my word of my Baptism, Confirmation (and reacceptance into the Church by a priest some 5.5 years ago) isn’t convincing enough, I’ll take the hint and case to Rome like somebody else did 2,000 years ago. I say this hoping that others who’ve had their Catholicity questioned will stand up and say likewise.

@ Cradle Catholic ~ Pat!

A couple of thoughts:

1) “Right now, I’m sincerely confused as to what denomination I belong to.”
Believe it or not, I think that is a good thing!  I had a “crisis of faith” some 20 years ago.  I decided I needed to find out what the TRUTH was, and spent long hours reading anything I could get my hands on, protestant and Catholic.  The most compelling reading for me, first Scott Hahn, which lead me to the early church fathers.  I realized that the deposit of faith really and truly was the Catholic Church.  My faith deepened more in that year and a half, than the whole previous 20 years put together. 

I do not say that in any way to disrespect my protestant brothers and sisters in faith.  I know many faith filled Protestants whose witness is much better than many of the Catholic’s I know. 

2) “I’m not as fortunate as the Nancy Pelosi’s and the Ted Kennedys’, the Joe Biden’s and the John Kerry’s of the world that are proud to call themselves, Roman Catholic, and for whom church leaders bend over backwards to accommodate, as Roman Catholic “faithful”.

I wouldn’t be quick to call these CINO’s fortunate.  I certainly wouldn’t want to be in their shoes on judgment day. 
I know that several of them were told they could not receive communion should they present themselves to receive.
http://www.tldm.org/News12/ScrantonBishopWillRefuseHolyCommunionToBiden.htm
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-burke-its-very-clear-pro-abort-politicians-should-be-refused-commu/
And even Pope Benedict himself tried to “rein in the heresy” of Nancy Pelosi (to no avail)
http://www.ktvu.com/news/18739519/detail.html

3) “There is NO question all the supporters of abortion, even late term (what I would call infanticide), and same-sex marriage (what I would call an affront to God) are excellent Catholics, and in good standing with the Church.  Again, I would be “Protestant” - protesting the church leaders’ decision.”
No by definition, you cannot be pro-abortion and Catholic.  Anything you want to know about the Catholic Church, just pick up your Catechism, and read!  Abortion, and same-sex “marriage” are intrinsically evil.  There are not circumstances that can make them anything other than evil.  (Are there dissenters, who call themselves Catholic, but embrace evil?  Of course.  But that doesn’t mean the Church condones them.)

First of all, there are not 67 million catholics. Many of the 45 million that you describe as “at least mildly inactive” are long gone. They may have been catholic at one point, but have left and are never coming back.
They have left because:
1) They will not tolerate an organization which does support the right of women to have full participation
2) Even if they are against legalized abortion (no one is actually in favor of abortion) they do not want it to be a core belief and discuss it endlessly
3) They are bored by gay rights and homosexuals. They can care less what people do on their own, and they are smart enough to know that their marriage is not diminished by someone else’s.
4) They are looking for genuine communities that nourish them and help them take care of themselves and each other.  They are not looking for the GOP in disguise.

In short, most of the folks who left want real answers and dialog, not dogma and homage to ancient traditions that mean little in the modern world.

I think we might be getting a bit off track. So I’m sorry if I was the cause of that at all. I was not (and I don’t think anyone else was either) trying to make a determination of “how catholic” somebody is or to judge them in this respect. I was simply questioning how somebody identified THEMSELVES when their language did not seem to match it. That’s all.

As far as I can tell, somebody is Catholic in as much as their beliefs are in line with that of the teachings of the Catholic Church. That’s fairly straightforward. I’ve no desire to personally judge the extent that anybody here is doing that. And that’s not the point of this post.

@Cradle Catholic - I can’t answer if you’re a Catholic or not. But I would encourage you to learn what the Catholic Church teaches, as it appears by some of your comments that you don’t fully understand what she teaches about the priesthood, the magisterium or even the Bible. And I don’t say that condescendingly - many people, including Catholics, understand very little about those things.

And I assumed you may be protestant because your points carry certain implications that are specifically protestant…while misapplying them to Church teaching. This is not the place to go point to point on your long history and thought process, but I would encourage you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a start. I think you will be delightfully surprised at what the Church actually teaches on these things.

And as for whether or not Catholics are Christians - I wrote a post on that here awhile back that you may find helpful. And another one here on why Catholics Believe things not explicitly in the Bible.

God bless you and thanks to everyone for your feedback and thoughts here. This is an important topic for the Church to address in a serious way.

@Steve:
I loved your posts and would like to hear more of your story. Please contact me offline at
www.crossedthetiber.com

Matthew- You wrote, “..it appears by some of your comments that you don’t fully understand what she teaches about the priesthood, the magisterium or even the Bible.”

Will you please tell me what the church DOES teach about those three items?  I ask, because my impression, as a life-long church-going, Catholic is that:

On the priesthood, the Roman Catholic church has one foot in the Old Testament, and one foot in the New Testament.  It insists that mere men, albeit ordained men, act IN THE PLACE of Jesus, and that we NEED these men in order to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.  Bottom line: no priest, no Sunday Eucharist.  It’s like the Old Testament priestood, where the people depended on a priest to intercede for them to God. 

The church claims we need those same priests in order to remain in good relationship with Jesus, needing them to absolve our sins.  If the priest does not like us: we are up a creek, without a paddle, by the way.  Remember, the rally cry with priests that behave badly, “They’re only human.” 

The church claims that priests must be SINGLE and never have a wife, but it’s okay for the priest to adopt one or more children.  A wife would however, be too much of a drain on his time and on a priest’s life, and will cost him too much money.  Infants are fine for him to raise, however.

Regarding the Magesterium - my belief is that these men have been playing the longest game of “Pass it On”, in that for at least 800 years, they’ve been not wanting to make ANY other “administration” look bad.  Thanks to them, I grew up believing Mary Magdalene was prostitute.  It was only a few years ago, when I learned FROM A PRIEST who was teaching a class, “Debunking the Da Vinci Code”, that it was Pope Gregory the Great that MADE A MISTAKE in a sermon he gave, attributing Mary Magdalene to the woman of ill repute that washed Jesus’ feet and dried them with her hair.

Another thing I heard recently is that Mary Magdalene is Mary of Bethany (sister of Martha) so Mary of Bethany was the prostitute.  Huh?  Poor Mary Magdalene has had a bad rap in her reputation for a thousand years, all thanks to POPE GREGORY THE GREAT.  I call that slander.  Our esteemed Magesterium just goes with the flow.  See what I mean?  The longest game of “Pass it On” in history.  Never admit a clergyman is wrong.

The dogmas about Mary are mind-boggling.  There is just too many extra-biblical, and extra universal church tradition involving Mary, I won’t even touch this topic, in detail.

It’s like Maryology folks work themselves into a frenzy about her memory, and the speculation about what she has her hands in keeps growing, based on how wild is their imagination.  There’s no end to how BIG Mary can be, and to the no longer earthbound saints and their intercessions.  It’s like Jesus is sitting in a corner, twiddling His Thumbs, powerless because He’s depending on His Mama for help.  God the Father?  The Holy Spirit?  Who needs them, when Catholics have their Mama.

What I think about the Bible - it is the Word of God, and EVERY verse in it is for our benefit, to teach us, to reprove us and to correct us.  While each verse is not written TO us, it is written FOR us.  God protects His Word.  Even the books left out of Protestant Bibles have excellent information in them, and as St. Jerome wrote, they are good for examples of living, but NOT TO BE USED FOR DOCTRINE. 

The Magesterium just distorts Bible verses to fit whatever agenda they have, and we are the losers, as a result, when these men are WRONG.

For instance - celibacy.  Our esteemed Magesterium REFUSES to teach the specific verses from the Bible that apply to qualifications for MEN in ordained ministry.  It’s right there - clear as a bell.  An ordained presbyter (priest - preacher and teacher), and an ordained bishop (an overseer), is to be a married man, with children.  Single men are NOT the ideal.  Married men are the ideal.

So Matthew - with those three topics you mentioned, the priesthood, the Magesterium and the Bible, how do YOU respond to how I described each above? 

Lastly,
Rick - the inactive Catholics you mention that want “equal rights” for women, do not read Scripture.  If they did, and if they had a smidgen of a brain to process what they were reading, they’d see that women are NOT to be ordained to the priesthood.  It could not be more clear.  Further, there has NEVER been ordained female priests anywhere in universal church Tradition.  About that issue, the Vatican has it 100% right.

Pat - I also said that this isn’t the appropriate place to necessarily go into the details of those things point by point. However, if you take my suggestion and read the catechism it will clear up some of your misunderstandings there. Another great resource for you may be to check out www.Catholic.com. Check out the library there. You sound like you would really enjoy it! I know I do! Lots of great stuff.

God bless!

Matthew- I understand your reluctance to get into nuances of the Catholic religion.  But how can any of us woo back inactive Catholics, or even better reach them, as you suggest in your article, if we are not equipped to know what the Magesterium teaches, in a nutshell?

Inactive Catholics are unlikely to delve into catechism.  If they’re not in other Bible-believing churches by now, they may not be churched at all.  The catechism would be way over their heads, outside of what would draw them back.  It’s like throwing the Encyclopedia Britannica at them, and saying, “Here, learn this.”

Catholic.com is a place that is so filled with opinion and data, that while a scholar may find it wonderful, I find it overwhelming.  I never cease to log on there, staying for 5 minutes, trying to make heads or tails out of what I’m reading, and then logging off.  I find that true for most all other Catholic sites too.

And “The Church Fathers” wrote it does not cut it for me.  I stop with the Deposit of Faith - that’s the Last Word.  The Gold Standard of Measure, & it’s found in the Bible.  The church Fathers are in their graves, and their opinions (some good, some not good) need to be shelved with them.  What did St. Peter say?  What did St. Paul say?  How about St. James?  Now that’s what we need to know.  Keep it short and simple.

When I go to reputable Christian sites (like David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley, John McArthur, Chip Ingram), I never ever fail to get exactly what I’m looking for, it’s simple, and the BEST part is they get their thoughts directly from the Bible.  I can even PROVE what they say because the verses are accurate, and taken in context.  I can say, “Oh, I see how they came to this conclusion.”

The Bible is not unclear.  The problem with so many Catholics is that the Bible is unread.  For many, the Bible is unbelieved.

One could assume that inactive Catholics looking to educate themselves about the Christian faith would just go to a non-Catholic Christian site too, and get accurate information, and simply.  Or they could just go straight to the Bible.  I often go to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops online Bible.  It’s easy - it’s a reputable version.

Going straight to the Bible is how I educated myself about the Christian faith.  The Roman Catholic faith is padded with tons of other doctrines that have no Eternal Value.  I’m into matters of ETERNAL VALUE, because that’s all that really counts, in the long run.  With all the news we’re getting these days, like Obama not defending DOMA, and the other God-dishonoring decisions that come from our national leaders (abortion among them), I want to be apprised of matters of Eternal Value.  I want my life to honor God. 

There is no way I would re-read the entire Catechism again, frankly, it’s boring.  They SAY it’s based on Scripture, but while Bible verses are used, and even doctrines (such as Justification) are completely accurate, over the years, our esteemed leaders added to, subtracted from, and tweaked verses out of context, and to the point where much has become “some OTHER doctrine”.

That’s what we are warned against, per Scripture.  How come the Catholic church NEVER teaches the writings of Paul?  Now, inactive Catholics WOULD be drawn back by the writings of Paul.  I love St. Paul.

Write a book about EVERYTHING Paul wrote & teach that.  Now that would be a page-turner.  That would draw back not only Catholics to the church, but it would invigorate pew people that come to Mass on Sundays, some almost comatose.  Preaching what Paul wrote (in context) would put a spark into our priests, into our bishops and, dare I say: living what Paul wrote WOULD give the men in the Vatican what they so desperately want and yet, they do not have: RESPECT.  Teach Paul!!!!!!!

Pat - So “shelve” the Church Fathers, the early bishops of the Church and those who sat at the feet of the apostles as they taught and built the early Church?  And instead let’s follow contemporary anti-Catholics like John McArthur who contradict themselves left and right? I’m sorry if I don’t find your approach compelling.

You asked for answers. They are very easy to find. The Library section on Catholic.com (what I referred you to) is not just a bunch of opinions and data. You can also search their site and you’ll get article after article explaining very simply the Catholic issues you’ve brought up here. There are tons of other resources also online. It’s one thing if you want to continue in your ignorance about them and in your ambivalence toward your cradle Catholicism, but it seems silly to then go around asking other people if you are Catholic or not.

The “Deposit of Faith” is not solely the Bible. That’s one of your fundamental flaws in your thinking here. Jesus gave us a Church - the Catholic Church. He didn’t give us a Bible. The Church gave us the Bible and assured us of the canon. It is a special and unique part of the deposit of Faith - but it is not all of it. Even the Bible admits that not everything Jesus taught and did was written down. The Bible also informs us that Jesus’ teachings were passed down by both written and oral tradition. This is the Church. And that Church was given specific teaching authority (also biblical). All of these together constitute the deposit of faith. (check out http://scripturecatholic.com/ for more stuff you may find helpful)

And the way you speak about the Vatican is like you have learned nothing of Pope Benedict or what he teaches. And the Mass is FULL of scripture. In fact, you hear more scripture in the Mass than at any protestant service I’ve ever been to.

Teach Paul? I’m very confused at your implications here. The Catholic Church teaches Paul AND the ENTIRE bible, in context and properly interpreted. Here’s a great resource on Paul being Catholic if you’re interested: http://pauliscatholic.com/

I can’t help but fairly easily conclude that everything you seem to know about the Catholic Church you’ve learned from non-Catholic (some anti-Catholic) sources who don’t seem to actually know what they are talking about. You seem passionate about learning your faith. I suggest trying some good Catholic sources if you want to learn your Catholic faith. Try reading some Scott Hahn, or Peter Kreeft or Jimmy Akin - anybody who can explain it from a perspective you can relate to.

And I was suggesting to YOU to read the Catechism…not to throw it at the average inactive Catholic.

There are plenty of “nutshell” answers out there about Catholicism. If you don’t think so, you haven’t looked very hard or don’t want to find them. But we also have to reject the pressures of the over-simplified, watered-down and/or fundamentalist kind of Christianity that is endemic to protestantism and demands “nutshell” answers to complex situations in a very mysterious world.

The Catholic Faith has the advantage of having been around long enough to know that such over-simplifications don’t work in the long run and won’t last. That’s why protestantism is constantly in flux, constantly failing and re-inventing itself. New ideas every generation. New divisions in the body of Christ, etc. None of them fully agreeing but all of them claiming to base their beliefs on the supposedly clearly understandable, timeless, personally fallible interpretation of a 16th century English translation of the same 2000 year old Catholic book - the Bible.

But this conversation is a perfect example of the challenges we face in trying to help inactive (and all) Catholics remember what an amazing treasure we’ve been given in a very short-sighted, sound-bite driven, nutshell demanding quasi-protestant/secular/relativistic culture we live in here in America.

But we’ve got to do much better. There is blame to go around on all sides.

Matthew, thanks for your post.  I really enjoy reading your blog!

Our Young Adult group is exploring the Catechism, more specifically the USCCB recommended one for Adults in the US. 

The book itself is much easier to read and understand than the regular Catechism (to me that’s more like reference material).  I have both, but this version is great at taking a topic or section at a time and exploring the central theme.  This book refers you to Scripture and Catechism sections by number. 
http://www.usccbpublishing.org/productdetails.cfm?sku=5-450

It’s also more more like a chapter book and thus easier to read or discuss as a group.  This is helping our group greatly understand so much of the Catholic teaching that we didn’t fully receive when we made our Sacraments of Initiation.

Hope this helps those of you that are yearning to learn more about our Catholic faith and share it with those that have fallen away. :)

LETS NOT KID OURSELVES WITH SILLY PRACTICES WHEN TRUTH IS PRACTICED AND TAUGHT, THEN GOD WHO IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT WILL TOUCH THEIR HEARTS TO RETURN. IN THE MEANTIME WE CONTINUE TO BE MEDIOCRE PROTESTANTS.

Wow, this article got quite a lot of traction in terms of comments.

So how do we evangelize not only ex-Catholics, but also other spiritual seekers and the unchurched. “Go and preach the Gospel to all…”

So it seems we need to create spaces for the unchurched and spiritual seekers to be welcomed and come closer to Jesus – since the mass was never meant to be the front door for outsiders. And most often many people aren’t ready to commit to RCIA… So where do we take people if we evangelize them?

So, ChristLife, that apostolate I work for, has done this type of faith series, seeker oriented, called Discovering Christ – and I’m trying to get the word out to parishes and minstries in numbers of ways.

http://www.christlife.org/discover

A recent participant was completely unchurched, no religious background, and her friend who works with her in a hair salon kept invited her to Discovering Christ. She finally decided to check it out. 7 weeks later share told us:

“I am not a Catholic, not baptized and never had any religion in my life. Discovering Christ helped me to open my heart to Jesus and ask him for forgiveness, strength and courage… I truly know that he is there for us and all we have to do is ask.”

That’s the new evangelization moving from theory to practice. That is good news!

We have a conference in a month on this:

http://christlife.org/conference

I am very discouraged by SOME of what I am reading here.  I was a person who left the Church for the evangelical church… but found their theology does not stand UP!  Returning to the Catholic Church, I now have a calling to EVANGELIZE the BAPTIZED in my own corner of my dioceses and Parish.  PEOPLE who complain about the bishops and the priest they think are not doing a job need to be proactive and show them.  GET together with like-minded people and address it with him as a group.  FOLKS, I see a turn… the Evangelicals that left the church are turning back because they see the error in Protestantism. ESPECIALLY if they will look at world and church history… the early years and documents like the “Didache”.  FOLKS WE ARE the BODY of CHRIST!  WE are His EYES, His EARS, His VOICE, His FEET, His Hands, and HIS LOVE!  ONLY THE BODY can make a difference.  Those people like me that left for the evangelical churches were looking for TRUTH, for Moral Teachings, etc. they will return.  WE as the BODY need to HELP our brother and sister Catholics to get EXCITED about their FAITH.  WE NO LONGER can leave it up to the Priest, and deacons and religious, because WE THE CHRUCH are not fostering the home environment that produces them.  The problem with the Catholic Church is NOT found in the Rectory, or Chancery, or the Vatican… IT IS FOUND IN OUR HOMES!  WAKE UP my FRIENDS… PRAY for RENEWAL… Catholic orthodoxy and allegiance to the faith is the only way the church will survive in America and Europe.  IT is THRIVING elsewhere… in case you haven’t noticed.

Bill - there is only ONE “Body of Christ”.  It has no denomination.  And everyone is on the same page - the Sacred Scriptures.  Old and New Testament.  I like your enthusiasm.  Let’s see if we can get our church leaders to keep their noses in the Bible, preach and teach it, in context.

Wow! So many comments! I just want to say that I love you all and hope each and everyone continue in the quest to follow Christ more closely and faithfully. I think we can appreciate how much ignorance is the cause of the lack of splendor of our unanimous or concerted Christian Catholic witness in the world! The know-love-live dynamic comes into play. You cannot live a dynamic evangelizing Christian Catholic life, if you lack a love for Christ and the Catholic Faith, but you cannot love Christ and the Catholic Faith unless you know this Christ and the Catholic Faith. Hence, the ignorance/knowledge of Christ, His teaching (Tradition and Bible) and His Church (the “make-disciples” Magisterium and living Tradition) is quite proportionate to a faith-life that is more or less stagnant inactive/non-practicing, or more or less vibrant active/practicing.
One more idea or point to the article are the semi-“inactive” or semi non-practicing Catholics that for some reason do send their kids to prepare for their sacraments. I have started a General Adult Catechesis geared especially towards “CCD parents” at my parish as pilot project that has given good fruit and has increased retention of these families, and has countered somewhat effectively the PROBLEM and typical vicious cycle with CCD programs: after they receive their sacraments they are gone! Why do they leave? Maybe because they were never “there” or there “to stay” in the first part! These, in great part, are practical non-practicing Catholics that at least felt the obligation to get their kids “sacramentalized” but with the intent of avoiding any practical, deep or further commitment with the Church. So, the General Catechesis for Adults tries cut in to evangelize and catechize these adults who are required to go to a minimum number of these year-round classes held simultaneously with their kids CCD classes on Sundays between Masses to learn the basics of the faith and morals. This is a somewhat captive audience that needs reaching out! It seems that in most parishes we could be doing a better job in retaining these Catholics already at the doors of the Church.

Sighhhhhh, why do I keep hearing the words “Acts Church,” “Bible Christianity,” “Home Church,” and “Just Give Me Jesus” whispering through my head? Now there’s this new kid on the block. “Simple Churches.” (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/25/simple-churches-find-a-fo_n_852653.html) BTW, the Catholic Church is the original Acts Church, the very same Bible Church that survived the rough years chronicled in Acts, the very same “Rome Sweet Home” Church of Scott/Kimberly Hahn and many other recent notable converts, and even Jesus never said to “just take” Him when He was offering EVERYBODY who comes to His Table so much more than those who prefer their blander fares in much blander settings, even if they happen to be in “home” settings.

Steven - if what you wrote is true, why do so many fellow Catholics tell me, “You sound Protestant”, when I describe what’s in Acts of the Apostles?  Why is it so foreign to them?

To:  Cradle Catholic on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 7:54 PM (EDT):

You wrote to Matt, hoping he would help you identify what you are.  You seem confused and not to be little or look down on you in ANY WAY, you are a little mixed up.
First, I must say that I can relate to all that you say.  I too had a very similar upbringing… except my parents were not religious or consistent churchgoers.  I am now 54.  That nun you speak of … at first, you quoted her as saying: “Unless your parents send ALL 5 children to a Catholic school, their souls are in jeopardy.”  I must comment.  I think as strong as she might feel… she thought that if you don’t go to a Catholic School, you are in jeopardy of falling away from the faith or in general you would not get a good faith based background… therefore putting yourself in jeopardy.  ALTHOUGH… I think some nuns were often OVERZEALOUS and demeaning.  That is catholic culture… more than Sacred Tradition.  There is a big difference between Tradition with a Capital T and tradition with a small t.  One CANNOT be altered, the other (small t) can.  Sacred Tradition is the teaching of the Twelve Apostles who received their instruction from Christ HIMSELF…. They would be the ‘formers of the Church”.  As you know… Peter … the first Pope was the leader… and so were his successors.  In Matthew’s Gospel Jesus gives him the Keys… if you look at Joseph in the Book of Genesis… you will see what that means.  Joseph…an Israelite, was given the Keys of the entire kingdom of Egypt.  Throughout ancient Israel, you see the Keys being hand to People.  It was a High OFFICE and had successors… Isaiah 22.  Read it.
No one in the world had the bible in hand until the invention of the printing press.  That was near 1500.  FOR 1500 years… the APOSTOLIC tradition… and after 400 AD when the cannon of scripture was determined by the Catholic Church, that is all people had.  AMAZINGLY and ONLY by the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT was the Church able to keep the SAME teachings even to this day.  Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture NEVER contradicts itself.  IF you think, it does… YOU (WE) are missing something!  THE Catholic Church GAVE us the Scriptures.  THE PORTESTANTS did NOT.  WE cannot look at Scripture ALONE.  IT MUST be Scripture and Tradition.  ANY PORTESTANT Church out there… I USED TO BE AN EVANGELICAL… HAS a type of ‘magisterium’… they just aren’t big enough to recognize it.  In a single Christian independent church… if you do not follow what the PASTOR believes… you are OUT!  The BAPTISTS and the WESLIANS, and the EVANGELICALS all have their doctrines.  THEY all have GUIDELINES based on THEIR INTERPETATION of the BIBLE…, which contains the CANNON of SCRIPTURE the CATHOLIC CHURCH GAVE US.  Personally… I have discovered after a 25-year stint away from the CHURCH… that SOLO SCIRPTURE don’t hold water!  ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED… in UN-BIBLICAL.  The Protestant THEOLOGY looks at only what THEY WANT to in order to justify their stand on a given issue.  NOWHERE more is this evident where in John Chapter 6 Jesus tells the people EIGHT times they must eat his body and drink his blood… and then many leave because of it… THEN JESUS asks the apostles if they want to leave to… HE WAS NOT SPEAKING FIGURATIVE.  IT IS BLACK AND WHITE… PROTESTANTS REFUSE TO TAKE THE LITERAL MEANING WHEN IT IS MEANT TO BE LITTERAL!
Unfortunately, throughout history, the Church has had its difficulties.  In today’s society where they feel hatred towards the Church… they focus on the negative and never reveal the good.  The Catholic Church was and is the building blocks of Western Civilization.  THE CHRUCH did more for SCIENCE, Education, Hospitals, Poverty, and humanity in general… more than any NATION in the world has… including the USA.  THEY have been the biggest ‘cheerleader’ for the UNDERDOGS.  Additionally, God always uses the sinners to achieve his goals.  Look at Peter… the Rock… he wasn’t much of a ROCK was he.  He Stumbled and fell, sinned and even denied Christ 3 times after vowing to die with him.  The men of the Church’s Magisterium are imperfect vessels… just like that nun in school that you had.  HOWEVER, through it all GOD’s CHRUCH still stands and will stand until Jesus returns.  Don’t lose heart my dear ‘cradle catholic’.  Keep the Faith… keep running the Race.  God and Christ put the Pope, the Bishops, and Priest there to guide us and provide the graces of the Sacraments.  They are given that power of the Holy Spirit by the ‘laying on of hands’ and it can only be traced back in the line of the CATHOLIC CHRUCH all the way back to Peter.  The Priests act “Persona Christi” in the Power of Christ because of the ‘laying on of hands’ at their ordination.
I could go on forever addressing items you bring up… and I wish I could help you more to discover what I and so many other Catholics have.  It is in the HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHRUCH where you find the FULLNESS of FAITH.  You must have the SCRIPTURE and you must have the MAGISTERIAL TEACHING 0 THE APOSTOLIC TRADTION.  Together they are the FULL DEPOSIT Of Faith.  By the way.  VATICAN II gave us a great GIFT…. It is called the CCC (The Catechism of the Catholic Church).  THAT is the Sacred TRADITION.  IF you don’t own one… it is the best guide for troubling questions found in Scripture.  EVERY Catholic should own one!  PLEASE READ IT!

Bill, you wrote, “AMAZINGLY and ONLY by the Power of the HOLY SPIRIT was the Church able to keep the SAME teachings even to this day.  Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture NEVER contradicts itself.  IF you think, it does… YOU (WE) are missing something!”

Cradle’s reply regarding, Sacred Tradition versus Sacred Scripture:
1) What verses in the Bible outline the SPECIFIC qualifications for those in ordained ministry?  I’m not talking about the qualifications to be a “lay person”.  I mean what are the ideal and specific qualifications in the New Testament for men we know as “priests”.

Can a well-known town alcoholic, who is also well-known as a thief, with anger issues, be ordained to church ministry, as he is?  The last time he was drunk was last night.  The last time he was arrested for road rage was last weekend.  The last time he stole money from his brother was two weeks ago.  He wants to be a seminarian.  Can he?  Per the Bible.
How about his marital state.  What does the Bible say (specific to priests) about that?

2) Comparing your above findings to Sacred Tradition:
What is the practice in the Roman Catholic church, since the year 1139, as to the *marital state* of ordained men?  Do the verses in Scripture, SPECIFIC to those in ordained ministry, square with the Roman Catholic church *practice*?  Yes or no.

3) Once saved, always saved: Bill, have you read Romans?  How can anyone read (and understand) Romans and think he/she can lose salvation?

Regarding John 6 - I agree with you, 100%.  John 6 is the Rolls Royce of explanations.  The same reasoning is in Matthew, Mark and Luke, in the Reader’s Digest version.  But it’s from Jesus’ own lips.  Powerful.

4) Regarding your comment, “The Priests act “Persona Christi” in the Power of Christ”—where is that in the Bible?  You are claiming priests act IN THE PERSON OF JESUS.  How is it different from we pew people, and our role in the Body of Christ?

Do you understand that by claiming priests act IN THE PERSON OF JESUS, you are saying Jesus must OBEY the priest?  Where is that in Acts of the Apostles, or anywhere in the Bible (please do not use the “the sins you forgive will be forgiven” because that is NOT “in persona Cristi”.)  Someone acting IN THE PERSON OF JESUS is powerful.  Powerful. And not Jesus’s power.  But the man’s power that is the key.

When it is abused, does it honor God?  Just like our saints (JPII the most recent).  It is HIS power that is healing people - as if he has an “in” with God, and it’s JPII who is really the wonder-worker.  Trinkets are being sold all over the world - of JPII, not of Jesus.  Jesus OBEYS JPII, and every priest in the world.  It’s downright silly, but serious, because it is an affront to God.

Speaking of that, where in Acts of the Apostles is there the practice of getting the no longer earthbound souls to answer prayers for you, and heal two people, so they can be declared saints by the Vatican?  With what JPII did to prevent Marcial Maciel from being investigated, it’s a miracle if his soul is even in Heaven.  When JPII was preventing Marcial Maciel from being investigated, was he acting “en persona Cristi”?  Not.

I have a catechism and I heed it, only when the source is the Bible (in context).  Before every word was written, it was first an idea, and voiced.  Just like the Creation of the World.  God had the idea.  Jesus, the Word, said it, then the Holy Spirit gave it life.

To say the Bible was not WRITTEN down until later, so it is worth less than Tradition is not a valid argument.  That is like saying the world doesn’t really matter much, because it did not come BEFORE God thought of it, and Jesus’ delay in voicing it.  Thanks for your thoughtful reply above.

To Born again cradle catholic:
Second Response:
Let me say this. The Catholic Church has 2000 years of experience.  The Protestants only have what… 500?  Additionally, before the reformation you could count all the Christian sects on your two hands.  AFTER the reformation and even today there are, about 37,000 different Christian Sects registered in the US alone…  Isaiah 53:6 “all of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way…”  I think it is rather telling. I call Protestantism… the Church of diversity.  IF I don’t like what they teach, I can go on to the next one or start my own.  IT is all on HOW I, ME…ME…ME…I interrupt Scripture.  THAT IS ALL WRONG.  Christ established a line of authority in the Church when he made Peter… the Rock… the first POPE.  HE GAVE Peter and his successors the Authority to guide the church and form its governing body.  What we call the Magisterium.  UNDERSTAND… that although some of those men throughout history are imperfect… GOD uses them as he does all imperfect men to guide his church.  HE gave the Priests… who were the APOSTLES special “Powers” to act on his behalf.  Example.  ONLY GOD can forgive SINS… NO ONE ELSE… HOWEVER, Christ gave PETER the KEYS and said whatever he bound or loosed on Earth… it would be so in Heaven.  On the EVENING of His RESURECTION.  Jesus appeared to the apostles in John’s Gospel… and SAID PEACE BE WITH YOU! that is the Peace of Christ. Jesus went on to say “RECIVE the Holy Spirit” and he breathed on them.  He went on… “IF YOU forgive the sins of ANY they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”.  CHRIST is giving them the authority that only GOD has…. That is to forgive sins.  IT is Christ saying to the Apostles… the Priests… you are to act in my place and forgive sins.”  In addition, He gave them that power by the Holy Spirit…. Breathing it on them.  They are to ACT IN “Persona Christi”… Latin… for the “person of Christ.”  THERE are several instances where Christ gives them this authority and NO ONE ELSE.  Enough on that.  JESUS is the head of the Church.  A PRIEST must OBEY CHRIST… NEVER the other way around.  THEY MUST follow Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which is the FULL deposit of the Faith.  Keep in mind… like you and me… they fail sometimes.
Once saved always saved… one of my Favorites!  FAITH Without WORKS IS DEAD!  Cradle Catholic if Christ meant us to be… SAVED by professing him ONLY… then there would be NO NEED of Him to give the Apostles the AUTHORITY to FORGIVE SINS.  That is just my first observation.  Paul in his epistle tells us to “keep working out our salvation with fear and trembling.”  In the book of Revelation St. John tells us of the 7 Churches and says things like… “YOU are LUKEWARM… be careful that I do not SPEW you out of my mouth”.  And be careful… or “I will STRIKE your name from the “Lamb’s Book of LIFE”… the book that contains the names of those saved.  Also, I think it is in Mathew, the final Judgment will be based on WORKS… DID you feed the least of my brother; give them when they thirst, shelter, clothes…ECT.  IF you did for the least of my brother … you did it for me.  He separates the sheep from the goats; and then the sheep enter the gates of heaven and the goats are cast into hell.  BASED on WORKS NOT FAITH ALONE.  I have paraphrased these verses because I don’t want to look up the actual chapter and verse.  One other thing… IF we were to receive salvation upon Confessing Christ as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need for Christ to give us his Body and Blood as GRACE to help transfigure, and nourish us on our Journey.  IT would be a given… no need, wouldn’t you say?  That is why Protestants DON’T believe in the REAL PRESNECE… they BELIEVE their Profession of Christ as Lord and Savior Completed it… once and for all.  WRONG!  I could go on… but will stop there.

1Timothy will give you an idea of what deacons and priest should be.  The man who is a “serious” sinner that you say wants to enter the seminary will have to go through a BARRAGE of Physiological testing and scrutiny before he can become a deacon, much less a priest.  I KNOW of the demands and scrutiny they must go through.  IF he GENUINLYT REPENTS and turns his life around he could become a priest.  DO NOT underestimate the POWER of the SPIRIT to change LIVES.  NOR, should you underestimate GOD’s DIVINE MERCY!  EVEN Priests… do not JUDGE… they can retain a sin or forgive it.  WE should leave all “JUDGEMENT” of a man or women to GOD ALONE.
I am sure there are SSA Priests… The Catholic Church does not call them Homosexual; we call them people with a ‘disordered thinking’ a ‘pshyc disorder’.  Same Sex Attraction. (SSA)  Although media and activists state otherwise… Homosexuality is not innate.  SCIENCE tells us this without a doubt.  JUST don’t look in the US for evidence.  IT IS HUSHED UP!  HOWEVER, I digress.  Your comment was that Homosexual or SSA as I prefer to call them are going to attack our children.  THEY are not ‘Pedophiles’ that is a separate disorder.  Homosexual tendencies are not always welcome to those who suffer from it.  They know it is wrong and struggle their whole lives with it.  They live chaste lives… MANY of them…. ONLY by the GRACE of God.  JUST as a heterosexual LUSTs after a person of the opposite sex.  Men or Women with same sex attraction may LUST after a person of the same sex.  THEY BOTH have self-control, but don’t always master it.  They both fall short and may give into temptation, some do and some never do.  Some people who are heterosexual life lives being SINGLE and have never had sex with anyone… although I bet every one with any kind of sexual tendency has had fantasies or masturbated about sex whether it has been male or female or homosexual in nature.  They are all… a kind of sexual tendency.  IF a priest chooses the priesthood, he must be celibate.  NO matter if heterosexual or homosexual, they are both a form of sexuality.  THEY BOTH take vows of Celibacy.  I PERSONALLY think it really shouldn’t matter if they are homosexual or heterosexual.  We find hetero priest that fall short and have affairs with women.  Just as I am sure we will hear of male priest with SSA may do the same with other males.  IT IS SEX.  I do not know the church’s true standing on this… but until I hear otherwise… this is how I feel.
In the Creed, we say… we believe… in the Communion of Saints.  I suggest that you look this up in the CCC it gives a long and very good description of it, and scripture references of support.  Basically, when a person Dies… physical death… His spirit lives on and goes to Purgatory or straight to heaven.  (Jesus said if you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall NEVER die…. Remember?)  WELL, I hope I can do this doctrine some justice… as it is difficult to explain in great detail.  IF we never die and we are still alive…even if just spiritually until our bodies are reunited with our soul and spirit at the final judgment, we are part of the body of Christ.  That never changes either.  IF we are one in the Body, we are One in Christ, One with the FATHER… one with the Trinity.  AS such, everything we do has an effect on the rest of the body.  IF we sin… sin is not personal… we sin against God, ourselves, and the Body of Christ.  IF we do something good, it affects the body as a whole in the same way.  To illustrate… look at Adam and Eve.  They ate the apple… we all as a result experience DEATH.  Everything we do has an effect on the rest of the body of Christ.  CHRIST the NEW Adam on the other had…, MARY the NEW EVE… both SAID YES to GOD’s will, and because of them cooperating with God, we have salvation through Christ…ETERNAL LIFE.  With that said.  The communion of saints can cooperate with God’s Grace for us and we for them.  Those who have died, we ask them to pray for them.  JUST as we did and do with PEOPLE who are hear… HOW many times have you asked someone to pray for you or have you prayed for someone else.  WE ARE ALL ONE BODY… and Pray for one another.  OUR Prayers assist the souls that are being purged in purgatory and they can pray for us… so that we don’t have to purge long ourselves.  Make sense?  I hope… I think it does.  SO does the Church and its 2000 years of saints… that is in addition to the OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS.
I did not say that Sacred Tradition was more important than Scripture or the other way around.  THEY BOTH MAKE up the FULL deposit of our Faith and will NEVER contradict one another.  THEY DON’T.  To clarify what I meant…. Scripture did NOT get complied until the year 400.  WE had all the Gospels and Epistles and the Old Testament and they were circulated prior to the.  IN addition, there were other documents… example… “The Didache”… “The teaching of the Twelve Apostles” written while Apostles still walked the earth.  They recorded our SACRED tradition in documents like this. The church decided they needed to decide what documents, what gospels were INSPIRED BY GOD and what were not.  MANY did not make the final cannon of Scripture.  IT was a long process.  MUCH examination, prayer, discussion etc.  The Catholic CHURCH gave us the bible… not the Protestants.  FROM the year 400, the bible was written down by hand and passed down and re-copied generation after generation.  IT was very intense and expensive process.  IT was not until the invention of the printing press that bibles became more readily available, but only the VERY rich owned them.
I want to point out that throughout the New Testament the Apostles said… LISTEN to what I have told you… KEEP what you have received by my word…. Hold fast to the teachings I have given you… this was all sacred Tradition.  Go look up JOHN 21: 24-25.  ALL that JESUS taught could not be contained in a thousand books! so … what makes you think that was important was ALL contained in SCRIPTURE?  2Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for training in righteousness…. So everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, for every good work.”  WHAT is does NOT say is that SCIPTURE IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF TEACHING… it says it is USEFUL for it…. NOT SUFFICENT FOR ALL. Furthermore, the epistle speaks more about the teachings that YOU HEARD, that were HANDED ON TO YOU… etc.  INDICATING BOTH are essential parts of the FAITH NOT ONE or the OTHER… but BOTH>

I have had enough for one night.

cradle catholic:  I appologize for some of my ‘wording’ and grammar.  I was tired when i wrote these and did not pay close attention to it like i should have.  Example… i said “hear’ instead of ‘here”.  you get my point.  Good Day to all.

To Born Again Cradle Catholic: I honestly don’t know. It could depend on where you live, or were brought up, how you were taught the Faith…a lot of variables. And when I say “you” I’m not referring to you directly. By its very nature, Catholicism is universally standard when it comes to the “bare bone basics.” On the other hand, it’s also a lot more flexible than most people have been led to believe. There’s plenty of room for both arch-traditionalist and kumbaya wings, respectively. Unfortunately, my diocese is still mired in the late 60s when a lot of the kumbayers took over the rectories and you have to look far and wide for a consistently more “traditinal” parish that’s less into kumbaya and contemporary hymns and stripped down “worship facilities.” Hmmmm, that’d be the nave and altar sections, right? On the other hand, I’m not so enamored with such arch traditionalism that it becomes just as rigidly ideologically imposed (that fair to say?) as kumbaya. Why bring attention to relatively minor regional and/or “style” variations in the way locals are used to attending Mass and their diocesan cathedral or local parish’s structure/architectural features? Well, we’re members of a visual, sensory and participatory Church, a liturgical and traditionally/historically enriched Church. We’re not this “invisible” but spiritual entitity (which is generally favored by Evangelical Protestants in particular), and we’re thus by far less likely to be reinventing the wheel at every turn of the road. Variations yes, but so far we haven’t found much wisdom in exchanging the round wheels of the Church’s car for square ones. That’s been a regular habit of some Protestants for five centuries every time they squabble over some new version of the Bible. We grumble about our bland, (blecccchly bland) American version for Catholics, but we can always, like St. Paul, appeal to Rome and find comfort knowing the Magisterium still looks very fondly on the faithful’s fondness for its far more respectfully traditional Roman version, plus the New Jerusalem and Rheims versions, etc., to boot. So long as they’re approved by Rome.
  It’s not how we sound to others that’s important; it’s only that we’re saying the same message that’s been said and shared by the same Universal Church, the font and Deposit of Truth for the past 2,000 years.

@Bill who responds to Born Again Cradle Catholic:  ““IF YOU forgive the sins of ANY they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”.  CHRIST is giving them the authority that only GOD has…. That is to forgive sins.  IT is Christ saying to the Apostles… the Priests… you are to act in my place and forgive sins.”

And if a priest decides to “retain” sins (and bind the sinner), then what?

New observer…
If you are asking me a question as to whether the priest retains them… then the person is NOT forgiven them.  Obviously if the Priest is acting “persona Christi” then he better be carrying out God’s mercy responsibly.  He cannot arbitrarilly say… “I don’t want to forgive you so i tell you that your sins are retained”  That would be abuse of his power… he will answer to God if he did.  On the other hand… lets say that someone comes into the confessional and confesses that he made his girlfreind get an abortion… or a woman comes in and says she had an abortion. (EVEN if the outrightly killed an adult).  IF he comes into the confessional and says, Gee father I am so glad she did as i told her, cause it sure would have been a bummer if i had to marry that girl, cause I’m in love with someone else.”  The Priest would counsel that person to see the error of his ways.  IF he still did not repent, and trun away from that line of thinking a priest is within his power to NOT give that person absolution.  The man’s sin would be retained.  HE is in danger of mortal peril and just might be spending eternity in Hell.  UNDERSTAND that a priest is under great scrutiney by God, Christ and His Bishop should he abuse his power to forgive or retain sins.  IT is not a matter taken lighly.

I hope that answers your question.

Bill - You wrote, “I call Protestantism… the Church of diversity.  IF I don’t like what they teach, I can go on to the next one or start my own.”

Cradle’s reply-
How is what you wrote different from a Catholic diocese in Anytown, USA, that’s liberal, with a liberal bishop, and pew people are at the mercy of pastors in individual parishes, who may be liberal or conservative in teaching?  I am in a liberal diocese.  Our bishop does not give a hoot, even about same-sex marriage, in fact, his diocesan newspaper gives a lot of publicity FOR same sex marriage!  I complain about that.  I am ignored.

One pastor in our diocese has spoken out FOR same-sex marriage in secular newspapers.  Because that pastor also promotes (illegal) immigration, the bishop lauds the man, giving him publicity and a platform with which to speak and to be seen as credible.

Is that not the same as what you described above, if I don’t like my diocese teaching and I complain about it?  Liberal-leaning pew people in the parish with the Pro-same sex marriage pastor LOVE him, by the way. But I know a man in a conservative parish that had been childhood friends with a man in the same-sex marriage supporting parish, and this topic ruined their 40 year old friendship.  But both are in Catholic parishes in the same diocese.

I know a parish that had a good and conservative pastor for 20 years in a nearby diocese.  The man retired and a homosexual priest was made pastor.  The new pastor literally tore that conservative parish in 1/2, insulting everyone, not caring a hoot even if he insulted a group of long-time female parishioners that were in their 80’s.  So half the parish stayed, the other half went to another Catholic parish 3 miles away.

How are those two examples different from: “I call Protestantism… the Church of diversity.”?

As for ALL clergymen being ‘en persona Cristi’, please answer this:
If I went to confession to the Pro-same sex marriage pastor (it would NEVER happen) and he did not like me, because he read all the letters to the editor I’ve written in the diocesan newspaper, trying to preserve the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman - as a sacred covenant - and he did *not* want to give me absolution for losing my temper at a family member, and confessing it to him, what happens?  I’m not forgiven?  So he is holding a grudge, and since he’s “en persona Cristi”, I am NOT forgiven?

Trust me, the Pro-same sex marriage pastor & the homosexual pastor that tore his parish in 1/2 do not become overtaken by holiness and sanctity and turn into Jesus, in the confessional.  Molestations have taken place in the confessional.  Just read the newspapers.

I know a woman who as a young teen, was raped on the altar by her pastor, and because she never reported it, the pastor went on to attack another teenage girl, about 15 years later.  This “en persona Cristi” image is a big problem, and when we read the Bible, we see it is not true.  Read Romans - “There are saints and there are ‘aints.” - There are only two kinds of people in this world: the saved and the lost.

My dear Cradle Catholic.

I do not feel like repeating myself.  LOOK at the CCC and the Bible.  DO NOT be JUDGE and JURRY over priests and bishops who have a liberal stance.  Write them and ask them to explain their stand on an issue so that you can understand better their position.  Tell them you have a hard time with supporting same sex marriage, as that is NOT what Rome says.  Ask him to explain so that when you WRITE ROME, you have your details right.

You are bringing up old, second and possible third hand information specific to someone else.  YOU do not have all sides of the story and therefore should take the stand of giving people the benifit of doubt.  YOU seem quite angry about what is happening in your dicoese.  You will get more with HONEY than you do with VINEGAR.  WHEN writing or addrssing someone who is out of touch with Chruch Teaching… be kind, be gentle, and state the facts of what the Catholic Faith Teaches… if you don’t know the facts… then you don’t have a leg to stand on.  BUT, the CCC, THE BIBLE and there are PLENTY of websites with ‘orthodox teaching of the Church of Rome.  I KNOW there are LIBERAL Priests, bishops, and deacons.  THEY still ought to receive the respect of their office.  EVEN if he is an idiot!  YOU on the other hand must NOT BE JUDGEMENTAL, and bitter.  For if you do… you become like them…. if in fact what you are telling me is true.  DON:T be so defesive… calm down… treat them with the LOVE of JESUS CHRIST…. IT may not work… but yelling and screaming and walking out, or splitting the church is not the way to go.

As far as the Homosexual Priest is concerned, HOW do you know if he is a homosexual.  Hasn’t he taken Vows of Chastity?  I do know a couple SSA priests and they are WONDERFUL MEN!  THE may have disorderd thinking about sex… but being priest… and celebate… it isn’t an issue.  IT should be no more of an issue to ANY PARISH MEMBER either.  Sexuality is not a reason for eliminating PRIEST from the priesthood…. Phedophiles… maybe… homosexuals no.  THEY are less apt to have sexual relations than a Heterorsexual male who has affairs with women.  THINK about it… they are both just one form of sexuality… but agreed… one is disorderd thinking the other is socially acceptable… because it is natrual for a man and woman to be attracted to one another.  BUT, both are supposed to be celebate.  SO it should not matter.  I know priest with a Same Sex Attraction DISorder——what society brands homosexual.  THEY are wonderful GOD fearing men who REJECT that life style and wish they didn’t have that problem.  THEY know it’s wrong and STRUGGLED with the issue their entire lives.  They are actually very good with people and compassionate men.  WE should not look down on a priest who is HOMOsexual or heterosexual… we should Pray for ANY priest… that has ANY sex as a result of being temptation.  JESUS siad, “HATE the sin, LOVE the SINNER!  REMEMBER??  STOP JUDGING PEOPLE… IF you can’t say something good about someone… don’t say anything at all… unless you are talking to them in a compasionate way face to face.

Cradle Catholic… you have asked a lot of questions on this bloog alone.  Forget getting my opinon and the opinion of others.  Spend more time researching CHRUCH TEACHING on the USCCB, VATICAN,VA., NEW ADVENT.org, Catholic Answers.  Take one of your ‘issues’ at a time and find out rather than going off on everyone in your diocese.  Then i might encourage you to find a priest and make an appointment with him and talk.  Maybe you should find a spiritual director?  Spend less time spouting off and try spending more time reading the CCC.  NOT just bits and peices… but the whole thing.  OVER AND OVER, LOOKING at whole sections… read them… review them… then put what you learned down on paper and get your thoughts organized.  THEN, if you think your priest and bishop is in error, well share that with them… with LOVE, COMPASSION, seek to UNDERSTAND their side, and share your side.  YOU will be surprised what can happen. THIS IS A NOT a war among us… we need to seek understanding…then take the good and dump the bad.  CHANGE on a dicocesisan scale will not happen overnight… but nothing worth while is easy.  KEEP the FAITH… IF you don’t like the Catholic CHRUCH… then get out of it, and move on.  My personal expericne is that only in the C

Bill - about my mention of the priest in our diocese that supports same sex marriage, you wrote, “Tell them you have a hard time with supporting same sex marriage, as that is NOT what Rome says.”

Cradle’s reply-
I don’t support same sex marriage because homosexual behavior is against *God’s Word*.  Just read *Romans Chapter One*.  My belief that same-sex behavior is an affront to God has nothing to do with what Rome teaches.  It has everything to do with what the Bible so clearly says about it.
I obey God.  “As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.”

Bill you wrote, “Sexuality is not a reason for eliminating PRIEST from the priesthood…. Phedophiles… maybe… homosexuals no.” 

Cradle’s reply-
“Pedophiles… MAYBE?”  Bill - surely you are aware a pedophile MUST never be ordained to the priesthood.  Even bishops claim they were misled by Catholic psychologists that told them, years ago, pedophiles could be rehabilitated.  They now admit they were wrong.  A pedophile must be kept away from children.  TOTALLY.  If you were a bishop, Bill, you’d say
“maybe”?

And Bill, you appear to be in disagreement with the official Vatican opinion that known homosexuals ought *not* be ordained to the priesthood, because that condition is a DISORDER.

Celibacy means they do not marry. Celibacy is not a VOW of chastity.  It means they don’t marry a woman.  I hate liver, and if I never ate liver in my life, it would be no sacrifice.  How is it admirable, for a man not attracted to a woman, promise never to marry one.  It’s silly.

God help us, Bill.  No wonder our church is in such a sad state.  A man need not know any of the Bible to be ordained - he can be sexually disordered, even a pedophile, and he’d be A-okay material for you to ordain, and entrust to a parish, if you were in church leadership.

None of that would be priest-material for St. Paul.  Paul told Timothy and Titus what to look for in a man wanting to be in ordained church ministry.  Our church, pew people and the Vatican, ignores it.  That’s my gripe, if I have one.  I dislike seeing God’s so clearly stated Word ignored.

The irony of it is that if St. Peter wanted to enter a seminary today, he would be refused because he was married.  He could go to the Orthodox Catholic churches.  But he could not be a bishop in their rite.  His wife would be a deal-killer.  So what Paul (and God’s Word) calls good.  The Vatican and their compadres, call: bad.

Instead of a man like St. Peter, they’d rather ordain pedophiles, and known homosexuals, and heterosexuals that have “lapses” every once in a while.  So much for the wisdom found in Scripture.

Cradle Catholic… You are to argumentative.  when I said maybe… i was not speaking litterally.  I do not beleive that a pedohile should be ordained.  I KNOW there are GOOD CATHOLIC PRIESTS who are ORDAINED and have SSA.  IT is not something publicly known and i would never ‘out them’ IF that priest is SSA and for his entire life he has fought it… i don’t think it would be wrong to ordaine him.  EACH case is individual… but YOU should not be the one to JUDGE whether he can be or not.  I WILL LEAVE THAT TO THE BISHOP.  A SEX ADICT MALE HETEROSEXUAL is JUST AS DANGEROUS as a HOMOSEXUAL, if NOT MORE in certain CASES!  GET off your high horse and stop making those judgements!  YOU are so argumentative… take a ‘chill pill’ or something and calm down. I also recall saying that I may think this way, but will support what men who are MUCH more better informed than YOUR or MY SPECULATION to decide.  THERE are SSA PRIEST in the Chruch this very day… and the ones I kNOW of are NOT MONSTERS, they are NOT PRO-GAY AGENDA and are VERY S|PIRITUAL and of SOUND MIND AND THEOLOGY!  THEY ARE NOT ANIMALS.  THEY HATE THE SIN AS much as you and I do…. they LOVE the CHURCH as CRHIST DOES.  I will not judge them… NOR SHOULD YOU.

YOU obviously don’t know what CELEBACY means.  Let me show you what the dictionary says:

celibate (?s?l?b?t) 

— n  
1.  a person who is unmarried, esp one who has taken a religious vow of chastity

— adj  
2.  unmarried, esp by vow
3.  abstaining from sexual intercourse

YOU seem to think you know everything; and you need to be careful of what you say.  I am trying to be careful myself… but i am begining to fail at that this very moment!  You are putting words in my mouth, and making assumptions you should not make.  AGAIN, i say, be careful. 

I will end my conversations with you, by saying i will be praying for you my dear Cradle Catholic… because it appears you have a lot of maturing in the faith yet.  By the nature of your questions you are quite confused.

Bill, you wrote, “I also recall saying that I may think this way, but will support what men who are MUCH more better informed than YOUR or MY SPECULATION to decide.”

Cradle’s reply-
Are you willing to pay out money, and even to lose your parish, based on the decisions made by men that are better informed than you are?

I ask, because in Delaware last Fall 2010, a jury awarded a survivor $33 million.  They ordered A PARISH to pay $3.3 million of the award out themselves, because the pew people were negligent too, by looking the other way, they allowed molestation to occur.

Are you really willing to put your own good judgment aside, Bill, and allow men that made error after error in discerning good men from ... not so trustworthy men?  Think about it:  St. Peter would be rejected in our seminaries today, considered NOT a good candidate to be a parish priest.

Lastly, it’s good to know you didn’t actually mean a known pedophile would possibly be acceptable as a priest.  But one never knows with my fellow Catholics.  I do not assume anything, anymore.  Thanks for stating implicitly you would NOT want a known pedophile to be ordained.

As for the SSA men: Bill, it is considered a disorder.  The Vatican has called for NO men with overt SSA to be ordained.  I didn’t say it - Rome did.  Frankly, I don’t understand why we pew people would “settle” for a man with SSA as a priest or a bishop, and REFUSE a sexually healthy, heterosexual man with a wife and family, that wanted to be ordained, especially in light of Paul’s letters to Timothy and Titus, stating the qualifications, AND in light of universal Church Tradition.  Why settle?
Priests can easily adopt a child, or even children, with the simple approval of his bishop.  Yet, a wife is “too much trouble.”

Regarding celibacy - I knew what it meant. Ask you parish priest this, Bill:  I maintain diocesan priests make only a PROMISE to their BISHOP to remain celibate (not married) - and while brides are removing the word “obedience” from their marriage vows to their husbands, priests PROMISE obedience to their bishop, and to his successors.

There are no “vows” of celibacy or obedience made to God.  It is only a promise of celibacy and obedience to the bisho.  Now ordered priests make a VOW of celibacy, obedience, chastity & I think poverty too.  But not diocesan priests.

Check out the abuse pages and see how many ORDERS have had to pay $$$ for the priests they have that have had “lapses” with women and other men.  Bill, it will curl your hair.  Check out www.bishopaccountability.org for starters.

@Bill who wrote:  “On the other hand… lets say that someone comes into the confessional and confesses that he made his girlfreind get an abortion… or a woman comes in and says she had an abortion. (EVEN if the outrightly killed an adult).  IF he comes into the confessional and says, Gee father I am so glad she did as i told her, cause it sure would have been a bummer if i had to marry that girl, cause I’m in love with someone else.”  The Priest would counsel that person to see the error of his ways.  IF he still did not repent, and trun away from that line of thinking a priest is within his power to NOT give that person absolution.  The man’s sin would be retained.”

Bill, your explanation is ridiculous.  The purpose of going to Confession is to: (1) Confess one’s sins by agreeing with God that one has sinned (2) Seek absolution (forgiveness) and then (3) Repent by changing one’s sinful behavior.  Why would a Catholic even bother to enter a Confessional and say “I am so glad my sin worked out so well for me” in the example you put forward?  Anyone with this attitude wouldn’t even bother seeking forgiveness——unless he/she is only interested in church legalism.  Keeping church law does not always rest well with the heart of God.  Jesus made that very clear to the Scribes and Pharisees.

Bill, the Catholic man or woman you describe above, is this behavior and attitude representative of anyone who follows Christ?  Then again, there are probably many in church who do think keeping all the rules and regulations are what it’s all about.

New Observer…OF COURSE IT’s REDICULOUS!  I was using an extreme situation to make my point.  AND… as stupid as my case may sound… I DO believe that PRIESTs HAVE people come into the confessional thinking they are right and the Church is wrong.  Your question to me was… IF the priest retains the sins… then what?  WELL I exaggerated the point so it would be clear that someone with DISORDERED thinking would receive correction and counsel by a priest and IF he did not turn from his sin he would NOT get absolution, NO MATTER if it was abortion, killing, stealing, LUST, sex outside of marriage, etc etc.  THE POINT was that if they did not REPENT they would be endangering their soul to an eternity of hell.  RIGHT?
I was only using this “dramatic” sin as an example.  ANY serious sin would be treated the same way.  IF there were no repentance, the sin would be retained and suffer the consequences… BESIDES, anyone who commits abortion is AUTOMATICALLY EXCOMMUNICATED upon receiving an abortion!  THEY would have to make an appointment with a priest to come back into the church.

Bill, you wrote to New Observer: “BESIDES, anyone who commits abortion is AUTOMATICALLY EXCOMMUNICATED upon receiving an abortion!  THEY would have to make an appointment with a priest to come back into the church.”

Cradle’s reply-
Bill, you are making up your own rules.  But let’s say you are right.  How would you respond to what is going on in parts of Africa, where priests demand sex from nuns, because they are considered “safe” sex partners, and when the nuns get pregnant, the priests FORCE them to have an abortion?

It is very easy to validate what I wrote above, because that news came out in secular newspapers all over the world, when JPII was still alive and a Mother Superior of her order went to the Vatican and complained about it to him personally.  She said her nuns ought NOT to be used for sex and she tried to get the future saint to help her.  He did not.  He did nothing.  In fact, a few years ago, a nun from an African mission came to my own parish, fundraising, and I asked her if the area she came from had that “problem”.  She said it DID go on in parts of Africa, but not where she was from.

The most egregious issue told to JPII by that Mother Superior was a priest that demanded sex from a nun, causing her to become pregnant, he forced her to have an abortion, and during the botched procedure, she died.  And the priest that got her pregnant presided at her funeral.
So is the priest excommunicated?  Who would he make an appointment with?

At what point was he NOT in persona Cristi?  Since JPII never did anything to stop what was happening, it must still be happening, it just doesn’t have as much press now.

Some of this conversation is getting silly guys. Just saying. New Observer, Cradle - I really think many of your questions would be easily answered by simply learning what the Catholic Church actually teaches on many of these subjects. Just trying to help.

Matthew- You suggest to New Observer & me, that we learn what the Catholic church teaches.  By omitting Bill’s name, are you saying Bill is correct, by writing, “..anyone who commits abortion is AUTOMATICALLY EXCOMMUNICATED upon receiving an abortion!  THEY would have to make an appointment with a priest to come back into the church.”

Bill’s point is crystal clear.  So are you saying Bill correctly states the official Catholic Church policy? If so, how would this be handled by the Catholics in Africa?

DEAR OBSERVER… I DO NOT KNOW WHAT AUTHORITY YOU HAVE FOR SPEAKING FOR ALL of THE HOLIEST OF ROLLERS in the Catholic CHRUCH!  ACTUALLY I’m BEGING TO WONDER …. ARE YOU CATHOLIC?  OR ARE YOU A PROTESTANT WHO HATES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?  I DON’t MAKE UP ANYTHING!  I AM NOT always right… but I do my best to INVESTIGATE before I open my big mouth.
READ CANNON LAW!

Can. 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Should you not really understand what that mean… try donig soem research.  NOW, YOU NEED TO GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE and STOP BEING THE POLICEWOMAN!  WHEN you are dealing with a Culture like that in AFRICA where sex abuse is RAMPANT and commonplace, and where NO WOMAN has any rights or ANY HUMAN RIGHTS… IT IS DIFFICULT for the church to CHANGE an ENTIRE CULTURE.  IT TAKES TIME and THEY ARE MAKING A LARGE IMPACT. BUT, people like you don’t read the good stuff… JUST THE BAD!  I am aware of the case you speak of and it is awful.  HOWEVER, WHAT DO YOU WANT THE VATICAN TO DO!  RAISE up an ARMY and run in there and tell them to al “be good or DIE!”  YOU are right that it is awful… that part of your thinking is sound ... but you are in great need of a reality check.  I AM VERY CONFIDENT THAT ROME is DOING ALL THEY CAN TO IMPACT THERE.  WHOM DO YOU CLAIM TO BE, WHAT QUALIFIES YOU TO BE ABLE TO CRITIQUE about WHAT is going on in AFRICA!?  Church teaching is UNIVERAL and NEEDs TO BE the UNIVERSAL STANDARD.  WHEN YOU are dealing with IMPERFECT HUMAN BEINGS WHO’s NATURE is to SIN, it is very hard to begin with… when those MEN and WOMEN are BROUGHT UP in a culture SO FOREIGN to the WESTERN way of THINKING… YOU have to APPROACH it differently.  LEAVE THE JUDGING TO GOD!  HE is sending the right MEN AND WOMEN THERE to MAKE AS MUCH AN IMPACT AS they CAN! —IN AND OUTSIDE of the CHRUCH. WE should leave it to those who are better informed and just PRAY FOR THEIR EFFORTS.
YOU… who are lucky enough to be born in a country where human rights are abounding… should thank your lucky stars and QUIT JUDGING situations that YOU are NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE…. INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING, TRY PRAYING FOR THAT PERSON and STOP BLAMING THE VATICAN OR A BISHOP.  REMEMBER each Christian is an individual and SINS.  NO POPE, NO BISHOP, NO PRIEST, is going to be able to STOP someone from acting on his or her own accord. THE CHRUCH realizes that INDIVIDUALS need to take responsiblility for their actions and not blame someone else.  WE in the US need to take that same responsiblility and stop accusing the vatican for something happening in the US or the VATICAN.  THE INDIVIDUALS NEED TO BE PROSECUTED in the country they live in. I thank God for HIS DIVINE MERCY and allowing me to be born here in the US.  I know there are people who never see any justice, because of the lives THEY are born in to. PRAY FOR THEM.
THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN SIN IN AND OUTSIDE THE CHRUCH. THERE ALWAYS WILL BE!  LIKE THE POPE, THE BISHOPS, THE PREIETS, and the LAYITY who hope to be MEN and WOMEN OF GOOD WILL continue to do OUR part in our OWN corner of the WORLD… I SUGGEST YOU DO THE SAME.  I WILL NOT POINT THE FINGER ELSEWHERE. I WILL NOT POINT OUT THE SPEC IN MY BROTHERS EYE WHEN I HAVE A LOG IN MY OWN!  NOR SHOULD YOU!
I am sorry, but you are just to negative for my liking… and this will be my last response to any of your posts.  FINALLY, I am beginning to think you HATE the CATHOLIC CHURCH and have NO love for it. How is that for an assumption?  IF I continue with that assumption, I might want to add something further. IF YOU CANNOT stand the heat ... get out of the Kitchen.  If you don’t LIKE the Catholic Church and you think it is so BAD, LIBERAL, Corrupt, Uncaring, HYPOCRYTICAL, LYING, SELFISH, GREEDY, RICH, and just downright AWFUL… JUST LEAVE!  Don’t be afraid to take like minded people with you. Have a good day, I will pray for you, and I ask the same of you, I KNOW I NEED IT!!!

CRADLE CATHOLIC… read my last post and take it to heart.  I will pray for you and i ask the same.  I KNOW I NEED IT!

Matthew,  Thank you, I know what the church teaches.  Your topic offers excellent and helpful suggestions for welcoming back and reaching out to inactive Catholics.  Your article fails, however, to address how they became inactive or perhaps have fallen away.  With only 1/3 of Catholics attending Sunday mass on a regular basis, this would obviously be the more serious issue.  Why are 66% inactive?  What studies show the patterns or trends for why Catholics are so huge in this category?  Do you have some material data?

Bill, you have addressed your anger to me in error.  I have never mentioned Africa, the Vatican, Pope, Bishops or abortion or any of the other issues you state.  You have the wrong person.

Bill - it was I that mentioned clergy abuses going on in Africa.  I am so glad you were already aware of this sad situation.

With JPII being put on the fast track to sainthood, needing one more post-death miracle checked off to his name, perhaps we can all pray what he could not do during his life (stop priests from sexually abusing nuns in Africa), JPII could do after death.

From what you described in your post to New Observer (meant for me)it sounds like stopping clergy abuse in Africa would take a miracle.

Matt,
I am rather new to the ‘Blog-reading-world’.  You must have the patience of a saint.  I wonder if it is possible for you to read all the comments, on ALL of the posts you make in a given week ... even when the comments keep coming for days afterward.

I want to apologize to you and your readers as I have let my emotions get the better of me and responded in a manner that was not Christ-like. I even directed that “anger” at the wrong person.  I am ashamed and deeply sorry to those I may have offended. 

IF you were to tell anyone who knows me well, and told him or her that my writing expressed any anger, they would be surprised. IT is just that I truly love the Church and people who are so quick to criticize Her without really trying to UNDERSTAND the REASONS why She does what She does, truly annoy me. HERE, I myself… have acted similarly.  The Church, The POPE and the Magisterium, DO NOT get up every morning to see how they can hurt, who they can sin against, who they can make suffer, etc.  I am 100% Sure it is the opposite.  THE whole world takes advantage of HER EVERY day as she and her Body, take care of Sick, helpless, dying, defenseless people around the Globe.  YET… NEVER has she asked for Praise for her HERCULEAN EFFORTS and the ENORMOUS GOOD SHE DOES for MILLIONS OF PEOPLE around the Globe.  But, I digress.

This is an apology about my actions.  Again, Matt, to you and your readers and especially ‘New Observer’ and “born again cradle Catholic’, I am sorry.  I pledge that I will not do it again and will not get involved in such unprofitable dialogue.

Bill - no worries! Happens to the best!  Since you’re new to the blog arena, you (and some others here) may be interested in one of my recent posts on blog commenting: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/14-dos-and-donts-for-blog-commenting/

Welcome, though!  And I hope you’ll continue to participate!

Bill, no offense taken on my part.

Matthew, if some data is available regarding why Catholics become inactive this might be useful as a tie-in with your article.  Thanks.

No problem, Bill.  I congratulate you for addressing what ails our church.  Many fellow Catholics refuse to admit there are problems & even refuse to recognize problems brought to their attention, whitewashing it.  That you knew about Africa caused me to have respect for you!!!!

Most of us that write on blogs do so because we care about our church; we just come from different levels of awareness and different methods to remedy it.  If we did not care at all about the church, we would be apathetic, not spending any time trying to make it better.

I’ve been blogging for 10 years (since Boston news was released) so it’s easier for me to stay calm, focused, and on message about making the church healthier.  This is my motivation for blogging: to do what is God-honoring, speaking of matters that have Eternal Value, drawing attention to the need for respecting Biblical wisdom in context.  That’s why I blog.

New Observer wrote, “Matthew, if some data is available regarding why Catholics become inactive this might be useful as a tie-in with your article.  Thanks.”  ...  I too, would be interested in that.  It would be God-honoring to have that data, reaching those souls would have Eternal Value, and the information would help us fulfill our call of The Great Commission, resulting in building the Kingdom of God, which is our job as Christians.

Nice job on the bogging tips article, Matthew.  I liked that you mentioned limiting the cut and paste articles.  And I have to point out that the other thing I admired about Bill’s posts was that he wrote IN HIS OWN WORDS for the most part, and he only used cut and paste in areas that were really quite helpful.

Bill - had you not mentioned it, I would not have known you were a newer blogger.  Good work!  You seem seasoned to me.  And I’ve read a LOT of posts.  Matthew - I don’t know how you do it.  Kudos to you!

Dear Bloggers…. all of you…. I THINK I’m GONNNNNAAAA Like it here.  Thank you for your encouragement and acceptance.  God be with you all… MATTHEW… THANK YOU for all you do!

MAY GOD BE PRAISED!

Why don’t we just stop not teaching that it is a precept of the church to go to mass on Sundays/Holy Days of Obligation? And that it is a grave sin to deliberately skip mass then?

Or do we still want to hide the truth because it’s not hip?