Isn’t this a sad case for freedom of speech and relgion in this country.  And another case of the continued bullying by the gay community and lack of a backbone by Apple. Add the element of an internet site like change.org—which gives an overly inflated voice to a few—and we have a truly poisonous potion. 
Read the declaration ... and enjoy the beauty and kindness it evokes.
http://www.manhattandeclaration.org/the-declaration/read.aspx
Then read the petion by GL group and witness the continued twisting and trashing by this ultra liberal entity.  Tragic. 
http://www.change.org/petitions/view/tell_the_apple_itunes_store_to_remove_anti-gay_anti-choice_iphone_application

I think that you don’t even need to bring Christianity into this subject. Apple is making a pathetic attempt to side with the “in crowd” which has only 7,000+. As the “very vocal protest by those who favor gay marriage and abortion” happens to be a group that uses cynicism. I have absolutely no sympathy for Apple, but the “in crowd,” in almost every situation will hold the First Amendment as their sword and as their shield, condemnation of their opposition as homophobes. I think, or at least wish to think that Apple had to have seen some degree of pressure from a minuscule group to override the 500,000 people who signed the Manhattan Declaration. It by no means justifies what they did, but for the “hipster/in look” that Apple so strongly desires, it undoubtedly had to have sided with the louder and newer crowd. I think Apple is self-damaging its reputation for the larger consumer body, I mean come on, 500,000 dwarfs the 7,000+ crowd. And there is obviously more at sake than just Christian consumers, Apple risks taking a stance against ancient morals that other world religions share with Christianity.

Perhaps Apple takes its name from Calotropis procera.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calotropis_procera

Honestly, I would like for someone to explain to me how gay marriage is going to threaten the traditional family any more than the divorce rate among Christians, including Catholics, threatens it. Christians of every denomination accept couples who are divorced and remarried, sometimes three or four times. It is tolerated without question. I know in this Declaration the writers say they repent of this, but they will continue to do it. Their repentance in this matter will have no practical meaning. What they should say, to be honest, is this: We know this is a double standard, but too bad. We will accept divorce & remarriage, but we will not accept gay couples. The End

I just don’t understand why those preaching “tolerance” are not more tolerant!  They want us to be tolerant of their lifestyle choices and beliefs, but they don’t want to return the favor.  What hypocrisy!

Wait a second. I thought a large group of people ment the majority not the minority. Should I recheck the definition in the dictionary? I initially liked Apple because they refused to put porn apps on there electronic devices but this I find very disappointing. They are, it seems, as spineless as most companies that give into these amoral small groups.

I am signing the Manhattan declaration right away!

Until we start having open and knowledgable discussions about homosexuality and it causes people like Janet will never understand why the Church opposes same sex marriage.  For starters please read “Beyond Gay”.  While there have been numerous research projects done to determine if a “gay gene” exists (Human Genome Project)none were found.  Therefore, you have to ask yourself how does one become gay?  By condoning a gay lifestyle are we not actually hurting the very people we profess to love.  Also, Janet as Catholics we take our vows very seriously, we cannot re-marry unless an annulment has been approved.  Not everyone who applies for an annulment qualifies for one.

Matthew,

I blog for the Manhattan Declaration. Thanks a ton for covering this story. We were discouraged when we realized that Apple pulled this application. What was equally frustrating was that they did this without telling us or giving reason—that is, until they said that it was removed for being offensive to 7500 pro-gay marriage folks.

Anyone who reads the Manhattan Declaration sees that we embrace the reality of each person, gay or not, having equal dignity and being worthy of love and respect. We hope that dialogue with those who disagree with us can take a civil and productive tone.

This story is not over, however.  Progress is definitely being made.  We are unveiling updates today on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/manhattandeclaration) and Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/manhattandec). 

Thanks again for covering this, and for all the other great work you do!

Billy
Blogger, Manhattan Declaration

To Janet Fernandez,  Homosexuality threatens and hurts the family so many ways.  And so does divorce.  First of all Homosexual relations are against the teachings of Christ.  To acknowledge them as “normal” or acceptable is to ignore St. Pauls words : “Do not be deceived. No adulterer or fornicator or sodomite will enter the gates of heaven.  When we choose Christ we die to the flesh and live in the spirit.  We aren’t owned by our sexuality but by our love of Christ. Disregarding God’s plan, our natural anatomical incompatibility, our call to holiness is not good for us or our children or our society.  Second of all proponents of homosexual marriage are redefining what marriage really is.  Marriage is a sacrament and a gift from God that lets us join Him in being “creators”. It involves a complete self-giving that can result in producing new life.  Homosexual relations are against nature.  Two vaginas were never meant to unite.  Two penises were never meant to unite.  Third homosexuality has a predatory aspect to it.  The natural boundaries of male and female relations don’t exist here, so people are lead into the lifestyle by many methods.  Many times these methods include stereotyping, coercion, preying on weaknesses, undermining Judeo- Christian teaching.  Fourth, homosexuality is a failure to properly identify with one’s own sex.  That is not a good.  That is a place that needs healing.  There are many other reasons.  Divorce happens between people who are united in the natural order of things. In our society there are people and political groups who actively seek to tear families apart. Sometimes couples just don’t have faith enough in God to persevere or love enough.  This is a lack of prayer. The destruction is just as real to children and families and our relationship with God.  Neither is a good but one at least does not include acts against nature.

Bigots mad when called out on bigotry, how is this news

I am glad I never bought any Apple device. That way, I will not have to waste money as I would be forced to deactivate such devices at the very least, or destroy them. I diligently shun companies which are anti-Christian or too PC. My Bible is my guide to life and God has said that homosexuality is “an abomination”. The Apostle Paul reiterates this condemnation, stating that fornicators, liars and homosexuals have no place in the Kingdom of God. May God show mercy to the misguided and mislead of our society.

Oh Dear, their loss!!!  (MAJOR LOSS)

My dear Cynthia: Are you aware that the Catholic Church grants annulments at the rate of 97% of first time applicants? (Fr. Leonard Kennedy, Catholic Insight, “The Annulment Crisis in the Catholic Church”, March 1999 issue)That in 1968, there were fewer that 400 annulments granted in the entire United States? That by 1980, that number had exploded to 63,962? That between 1980 and 1994, the Church in America annulled more marriages than did the entire Church throughout the world since its founding? (Robert Vasoli, What God Has Joined Together:The Annulment Crisis in American Catholicism, Oxford University Press 1998, page 4) Catholics take their vows seriously? Not everyone that applies for annulment qualifies? Give me a break. Annulments are just a loophole to allow defacto divorce and remarriage. By the way I am very eager for open and knowledgeable discussion. You can find me on facebook at janet.fernandez1@yahoo.com. Send me a friend request and we’ll start talking! Maybe you can straighten me out (no pun intended)

Well, I guess I won’t be buying anymore Apple products….so long!  and even if they changed their stance, I see that their hearts only lie with the profit margin and not with morality.  But, I really never expected any better of them.

thanks Janet, yes I am aware that in the past far too many annulments were given which is why Pope Benedict issued a warning to all bishops regarding that matter. Read Beyond Gay and let me know your thoughts.
Also, please re-read Pam’s comments on the natural law.  When natural laws have to be changed to accommodate individuals that should be alarming to everyone.

This Country was founded on Christian principles, One man One woman married, and I am saddened that Christianity is being pushed out of everything.  We are forced to go along with today’s thinking that relationships between men/men and women/women are normal, and they are not.  They will all find out too late that God does not change.  His commandments have not changed the teachings have not changed, and just because people think differently doesn’t mean that God has decided to change to that way of thinking.  We have to remember that God IS God and we are not!

Pam - Your concise writeup on the entirety of the gay trend and error is wonderful.  Thank you for your insights.  I had planned to buy an Apple laptop PC and possibly an iPad this Christmas season, but will not give Apple my business.  Does anyone know a computer company that is worthy of getting my business?  I am a signer of the Manhattan Declaration, and a conservative Catholic Christian.  I love all of God’s people, and we are all sinners.  However, none of us should revel in sin and identify ourselves by a particular sin.

Apple is a liberal organization, run by liberals who support the full range of left-wing causes like gay rights and abortion on demand. This censorship is no more of a surprise than the Obama Administration’s removal of the terms “jihad” or “Muslim” from its national security memos. This is how leftists act when they are in charge. Don’t buy their products and don’t vote for them.

@Janet and Cynthia and Cecilia
I can’t help but point out that yes, there is St. Paul’s quote and a statistic saying 97%, but there is more of a natural law that one can look at rather than faith (which doesn’t cut it for some, and a statistic certainly doesn’t do it for others.) I think that “this country was founded on Christian principles,” however, we have either strayed too far from them, ignored them, or mutilated them. And one doesn’t have to look much farther than the inability for two males or two females being incapable of reproducing a child. It is a matter of fact there is no natural way for gays to reproduce. St. Paul, along with many other Christian writers, do not necessarily write to always condemn and to kill the fun of the party. I think that especially in St. Paul’s context, Christian philosophy is an attempt to live life to the fullest. And one can view St. Paul’s writing as a restriction that bars homosexuality,but at the same time, he is stating a simple fact that God did not intend for two males to create a family. God, nature, genitalia-
whatever it is- does not work in favor of homosexuality. I think that because of this ultimatum, gay supporters in this instance are quick to lash out. There IS indeed a level of frustration that gays express which consequently points to the natural inability for two members of the same sex to have children. This is why the term marriage means one man, one woman. I think today, people tend to think that the buzzword(s) “definition of marriage” is deductive; that Christians or moralists believe that gays are wrong because Scripture says so-that argument doesn’t get very far when people don’t believe in it. However, being inductive with the concept of one man, one woman leads one to think of that marriage is just the word that gives a name to the reality of their union.
With that in mind, one should fully recognize the high wall of natural law (reality?) that homosexuals face. Condemning them is the last thing people should want to do, inherently we do though. Something innately different really freaks people out, and it does and it has shaken many peoples beliefs. But realizing what homosexuality does to heterosexuals, that is, discomforts them, one should always recognize the weight that gays carry in their inability to start a family through love, sex, and compassion for another.

Christianity IS offensive to many of us. The bible is a despicable book that preaches hatred. If you don’t think so, that’s because you aren’t reading it.

The protagonists of immorality like homosexual acts, gay marriage, infidelity etc favour or side with companies like Apple whopropagate these ideas.They take christians as a weak group and so indulge in slush throwing on them. They will learn a lesson from Muslims who will never tolerate such companies and Islam bashing

If this is setting a precident that all it takes to get an app removed from the itunes store is a signature list, then why aren’t Christians petitioning to have apps that we find offensive removed?  Or is there a double standard?

I was thinking of buying a I phone, the latest edition. I just has erase that from my shopping list. I just regret that I have a big apple computer and a I pad. For sure in the future, no more of apple product in my house. I’m christian and I feel offended by many of the music that is sold by I Tune. Yet, I don’t buy that music and I didn’t had a grudge again apple for that. It is a free choice that I have to buy there music or not. But when apple discriminate against me, I don’t accept it and will boycott their product until they accept me not just as their customer, but also as a Christian.

Is there a company that makes computers that doesn’t support “liberal causes, etc?”  Doesn’t the Gates foundation promote birth control, etc?

And please note that you can still access this information on your iphone, you just can’t buy/install the App.  There is a difference between blocking it, and not allowing the software.

I am an atheist. I also disagree with the premises described in this article.  However, I also hate apple, and this is why.  I don’t want to pay for a product in which apple gets to decide the content I read.  This isn’t really a free speech issue, though.  Apple is a private company making a product. Technically speaking I also support the companies right to make their products however they feel.  If I don’t like what they do I have to vote with my money and so I refuse to buy any apple product due to misbehavior like this.  I suggest you do the same.  If you simply must have an iphone, then there are programs that can open it up.  These programs void any warranties though.

“The issue of same-sex “marriage” is just a symptom of something much deeper in society. It is a monumental challenge to the fundamental understanding of the human person, and the meaning of marriage and family—the foundation of society and the future of our children.”

http://www.standwithchildren.org

SO if it only takes around 7500 people to make a “large group people” then surely we Christians can get enough votes and do the same thing that the minority has done. we can review apps and then sign petitions to have them removed as offensive from the app store! Christians are a large group of people right?

This is crap!!  Apple will promote apps that entice people to become promiscuous, but not one to promote righteousness?  Oh, I guess its ok to cheat on your spouse by creating apps like miumeet?  Spread diseases, destroy any since of security with loved ones, or break up a family for a fling.  !@#$% you Apple!!  Thats why I won’t buy from you.

I am for the Christians

I’m with Apple here. If you want to take away someone’s rights, then I am against you. Period.

P.S. For the record. Christianity is offensive.

It is time for all real Christians, Catholic, Evangelical and Orthodox stand up together and defend Christian values ! Together we can show what a majority wishes for its country, as per democratic will (isn’t a majority that decides the fate of a country? )

It is time that we leave our small differences and all Christian join hands to stand up for values that we value the most: marriage, life and the Bible !

Merry Christmas to all !

Freedom of speech includes the Manhattan Declaration.  It looks like Apple is NOT providing freedom of speech and therefore as a parent, educator, and citizen of a country that allows freedom of speech, I will do my part to let people know what Apple is not allowing on their media, A CHRISTIAN VOICE!

you christians don’t have the authority to define marriage for the rest of us. your homphobic bigots. wish you all would disappear and be like your sand god. invisible.

Let us campaign for the signing the Manhattan Declaration. It is a concise, thoughtful, respectful document that has not received the publicity it deserves.

Tom, no ones rights are being taken away.  If you understood Christianity you might see how poorly it is adhered to,  but you wouldn’t find it offensive.

Clearly our society is filled tantrum-throwing children, stamping their feet and shouting, “Gimme what I WANT or I HATE you!”  Parents love them unconditionally, but that doesn’t mean that the kids should get their way.  Christianity is based on complete love of God and neighbor — all neighbors. Those who find it offensive or bigoted either do not understand it or they choose to misinterpret it to further their personal desires.

Apple gets no $$$ from me. Not since 1996 and the whole Powerbook 190CS debacle.

BOYCOTT APPLE!...until they reinstate the application…hmmm they support the Grindr app. and it is nothing if not well you know.

It always warms my heart to see Christians use misguided and decidedly one-sided logic in an attempt to prove a point.
No matter the tone used, the insult lies in the implied double negative. For example, if one were to describe someone as being “not-unattractive” you are technically not being insulting, yet the statement falls far short of being complimentary. So by publicly broadcasting adamant views on ‘moral’ issues that have long since been resolved and accepted by society, you are inherently insulting those who do not share your viewpoint, whom are clearly viewed as amoral. Plus, its insulting to think that we wouldn’t notice. Christianity has long since lost the battle against homosexuality and abortion. Deal with it.
Secondly, to say that by choosing to remove the app, Apple has insulted an even larger group by removing it is laughably hypocritical. If there were a very politely worded app supporting the view point of, say The Church of Satan, the Christian community would have a collective fit and demand it be removed. And I very much doubt that the author would be standing up for the rights of those who published said app.
The subtly chosen headline, is at best, biased and at worst, propaganda. By removing the app, Apple has not condemned Christianity, they’ve condemned prosletisation. However, Christianity and prosletisation go hand in glove and therefore its simple to see how the author got the ideas mixed up. We won’t hold it against him.
And then we get to the irony, my favorite part. Under Christian belief, god granted us free will. Therefore to attempt to remove people’s free will (i.e. abortions) is to go against god’s will. The second batch of irony lies in the Christian view on homosexuality. If god is omniscient and god created all of us, then god must have made people gay intentionally. It then follows that god made a mistake or a group of men made a mistake by putting homophobic literature in the bible. I’ll let you choose. 
The real tragedy in all this, and I don’t mean this utterly insignificant event described here, is the corruption of the modern concept of Christianity. Ever since the Council of Nicea the driving forces that shaped Christianity into what is become has not been the divine will of a god, but the will of men so self involved as think they were divine. 
As I type this, I realise its all in vain. Logic and rational thought has failed to sway any theist of any kind. But we will never stop trying

Pam - BEAUTIFULLY STATED.  Thank-you.

This app doesn’t promote Christianity, does it?  Based on the description, this writer thinks that Christianity is nothing more nor less than opposing the efforts of gay people to get legal recognition for their relationships.

Kyle, Naturally many of us disagree that abortion and homosexuality have won any war.  These issues are not resolved or accepted by society.  That is why this move by Apple is drawing such a response. We definitely disagree with those who do not share our viewpoint but is all disagreement insulting?  Since no apps have been petitioned to be removed by Christians as a group at this point I won’t speculate on motives.  But lets talk about abortion and free will.  Abortion is the killing of a child by it’s own mother.  Christians would love to see no abortion, but we DO realize free will exists and so what we ask is that OUR government not make US compicit in the abortion by asking us to pay for it. Individuals make mistakes and sin, but we as a nation shouldn’t be enabling or encouraging that.  No Christian will say you absolutely can’t have an abortion.  They will say, I love you and I can’t support this destructive decision you are making.  Now for the homosexuality issue.  God created you for Himself.  He gave you and gives you everything you need to be His.  He put you in a fallen world and people have temptations all around them and choices to make.  Do I embrace God.  Do I seek my own pleasure before God?  Do I spend time with Him and really seek to do His will?  Do I die to myself and take up my cross every day or do I say, forget it. This is too hard.  I’m going to do what I feel like.  People are born with all sorts of disabilities, differences, and crosses. Accept or reject. Free will. The Bible is the inspired Word of God.  It is your lifeline and road to salvation.  Lose the pride and open the book.  God bless.

Tom,

No study has proven that people are born homosexual, Studies have proven there is no such thing as a homsexual gene. It amazes me how athiests demand scientific proof of God, but don’t demand the same for the own beliefs. If it requires faith it without proof it is religion.

These so-called “issues that have long since been resolved and accepted by society” clearly aren’t accepted by all of society and haven’t been around all that long.  And what will happen to “society’s” accepting and tolerant nature when brothers and sisters start requesting the right to get married, or a father requests the right to marry his daughter and raise children?  Will you draw the line there?  And for how long? Or is there to be no line?  Just claiming that a behavior is based on love and tolerance doesn’t make it a behavior that is automatically good for society or good for individuals.  That is specious reasoning, my friends.  Very dangerous.

If people disagree with the Church so strongly, why do they continually post here? After all, they have plenty of outlets, since it is so fashionable to trash the Church and Her community in a society filled with loneliness, consumerism, individuality and “progress” that ends in darkness. I believe they feel in their heart of hearts Chesterton’s “twitch upon the string.”  And they know, no matter, what, that they can’t kill Her, just as they cannot kill Christ—despite the evil and moral decay our society increasingly embraces.

The so called Gay rights are built on opinion. Traditional values are based on the Natural Law.  Men and women are complimentary by the design of nature.  Gay rights seek to define relationships on grounds of the redefinition of the function of bodily parts. 

The Natural Law   was identified by the Ancient Greeks. From Sophocles around 500BC from Aristotle 350BC to Cicero 100BC. It was the premise of the Pilgrim Fathers in writing the Constitution of the United States. It is the premise of the UN Charter.

The premise of Christianity and Judaism is the Natural Law.  The Natural Law was not invented by Christianity or Judaism it is honoured by them because it is the design in nature.

The Natural Law is in honoured in both Genesis 1:26 “God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them” and in the New Testament in Mark 10:6 Jesus said “But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.”

Right and wrong are not relative or can be based on opinion.  The spectrometer of reason that is sought to determine right and wrong or how to decide what is true is the Natural Law that is written on the heart of man. It may however be masked as Paul outlines in Romans 1: 16-32. 

Aquinas deals with the same point in the Summa in 94:6 saying that “the Natural Law can be blotted out from the human heart, either by evil persuasions, just as in speculative matters errors occur in respect of necessary conclusions; or by vicious customs and corrupt habits,..”

Science is not subjective neither can be morals. We are not free to choose which side of the road we drive on as that would endanger others. Individual may blot out the Natural Law written on their hearts to commit a robbery but it does not change the fact that it is wrong.

Under the Natural Law men and women are complimentary.  Under the moral relativism of “equality” there is a redefinition of the function of bodily parts that are not consistent with nature. 

Marriage by definition was a promise between men and women to be husband and wife. The term marriage is being used by the moral relativism of “equality”in an attempt to validate their redefinition of the function of bodily parts that are not consistent with nature.

It might also be noted that there is an attempt by secularists to attempt moral inversion.

This is identified in Isaiah 5:20

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil, who change darkness into light, and light into darkness, who change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter!”

Shakespeare makes use of the same sentiment in Macbeth,  Act Scene 1 when the witches say “Fair is foul, and foul is fair:”

Jesus in Mark 12 was accused of doing good works by the power of Beelzebul ie the devil.
He replies
26 And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
31 Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33 “Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. ….”

Paul in Romans 13:12
….Let us then throw off the works of darkness (and) put on the armour of light;

Jesus as Logos is both reason and the light of the world.

I post here because I am a Catholic and I love my Church. This is the ONLY issue I can’t agree on. I’m sorry if some Catholics do not want to hear any opinions that differ from theirs. I actually WANT to discuss it with those who see it differently. If anyone is willing to do that, it might be easier on facebook. You can find me at janet.fernandez1@yahoo.com and send a friend request

NC Register comments seem to have a high troll quotient these days. Or maybe they think this might be National Catholic Reporter, the paper for leftist Catholics. But the vapidity of some of these remarks is truly remarkable.

If you don’t like gay marriage or abortions don’t have one.  Apple are standing up for an oppressed minority, something Catholics shouldn’t need reminding once included them.  “That which you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me”.

People who think that gay marriage (or whatever other issue that irks them) has to do with the “good of our country” need only to read the “5000 year leap” by Dr skousen.  It’s an easy read and will show you the relationship between religion/morals and our constitutional republic, though that is not its focus.  Every Catholic should be familiar with how our Founding Fathers came upon this form of government and what it stands for and how many of our “rights” are based on the Natural Law.  America is truly a unique country.  As for gay marriage, think about it.  If domestic partner or a similar named legislation which gives the homosexual couple the same “beneifts” as a married couple have doesn’t satisfy them, then what exactly is it that they want?  What is to be gained by destroying the definition of marriage?  If we then, come up with a different name to define the relationship between a man and a woman, then what?  This is simply a move to undermine the tenets of our society and destroy America as we know it.

I am an Apple fan and always have been.  Too bad that they bend to such complaints.  I wonder if Apple would allow an APP by a pro-homosexual group?  If so, I wonder if they would remove it if those of us who believe in traditional marriage and biblical sexual relations were to complain about their pro-homosexual APP?  Come on Apple, wake up!  You can allow us this APP and allow them their APP.

If the Catholic church believes that the family is so important, why do they continue to insist that priests have no traditional family? Did you know that the church allowed priests to marry for the first 1,000 years until ultra-conservatives pushed for the change? 1,000 years later and they’re still pandering.

There is no free speech issue. You have freedom of speech, right here on your website.  Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you get to say whatever you want where-ever you want, otherwise I would be able to force you to print whatever message *I* want. Apple’s App Store includes numerous religious apps for those who want to improve their Christian life and faith, so saying that they find Christianity offensive is a histrionic attempt to inflame those on the far right who have forgotten that Jesus’ harshest words were for the overly conservative Pharisees who cared more for ‘laws’ than they cared for people.

Stop equating Christianity with the political agenda of the extreme right wing of the GOP.

I am surprised that Apple would fold for a few comments from nonchristians. I will not ever buy anything that Apple produces or sells in the future.

Janet F
We are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  We are not a one, holy catholic and apostolic cafeteria.
We don’t get to pick and choose. My dear sister, we ain’t protestants.

This entire article makes me glad I’m no longer a catholic.  What bunch of tiny minded morons.

To: Posted by TJ Luoma on Wednesday, Dec 1, 2010 9:31 PM (EDT):
    Priest being married or not does not change the biblical view of marriage and sexuality any more than a box marked oranges but full of apples means that either are not fruit.  I am not Catholic.  I am a married clergy of another denomination.  I can tell you, with all the joys of marriage and children, including grandchildren, there have been times that having a family made ministry more difficult.  This is what the Apostle Paul must have meant when he encouraged Christians not to marry, if they could refrain, and be devoted to the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Now we know what side Apple is on.  Go Apple!

Instead of a petition requesting that Apple reinstate the app, why not a boycott of Apple products?  Surely all the iPhone, iPad, I-this and i-that owners could toss their gizmos, buy something else, and shun Apple in the name of Christianity.

Consider yourself blessed. ” Blessed are you when people insult you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice because great is your reward in heaven.” My understanding of the Manhattan Declaration is that we should expect that our ideas will not be well received by the world and therefore we declare to stand for righteousness even when there is a personal cost. So let the cost begin!

@William H. Thrasher: Actually, Paul said that no one should marry unless they couldn’t help themselves. 1 Corinthians 7 makes it very clear that Paul was against marriage entirely, and yet most Christians ignore this. They talk about the sanctity of marriage, despite the fact that Jesus and Paul were, at best, disinterested in marriage, and at worst opposed to it.

You know what Jesus *was* concerned with? Caring for the poor and telling the rich that if they exploited the poor they’d end up in hell. Funny that the GOP has pretty much ignored that clear and unambiguous message of Jesus — not to mention the Old Testament which some Christians seem to think exists only to condemn homosexuality.

Posted by TJ Luoma on Wednesday, Dec 1, 2010 10:44 PM (EDT):  No difference in what you and I said about Paul except you seem to think he was very anti-marriage and I think he recognized that when one does marry, her/his attention is split between family and Christian ministry.  It seems your axe is with the GOP and ‘right-wingers’. You are right about feeding the poor and caring for the sick and imprisoned.  Oh, did you see on the news today that Bono and Bush, the ‘W’, were complimented for their work in helping aids victims in Africa?  The news said that the ‘W’ did more than any other US president to help the cause of battling aids.  Reporters even gave statistics.  To me, this shows that a probably ultra-conservative was, and still is, directly involved in ministering to the poor and those with infirmities.  He and Bono are doing a joint fun-raising for these who so suffer.  Then there are the numerous times that the ‘W’ slipped onto military bases to encourage the wounded.  Perhaps take a step back.  It appears you are carrying a heavy chip.  A chip for a long time weighs one down.  and skews their walk.  Remember, “if the Son sets you free, you are freed indeed”.

TJ Luoma,  The Catholic priests of the Roman rite do not marry because their bride is the Church.  All their love and attention is invested in Her (us).  Other rites like the Maronite rite of the Catholic Church do allow married priests, but if they marry I believe they may not become Bishops.  It is as you said, that a family is a blessing but can be a hindrance to ministry.

I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Manhattan document is not all of Christianity…. and aps like the liturgy of the hours:
http://divineoffice.org/

are lovely.  Manhattan group just needs to make a better website for people on i pad, etc to navigate to…

‘The Catholic priests of the Roman rite do not marry because their bride is the Church.All their love and attention is invested in Her (us).‘you forgot all the young boys,at lot of attention is invested in them too,but that isn’t love is it,forgot about that,didn’t you.

“I diligently shun companies which are anti-Christian or too PC.”

If that’s the case, do you run Linux on your home computer? Microsoft isn’t any better than Apple in this regard. Microsoft’s yearly charitable giving includes gifts to Planned Parenthood.

“I am surprised that Apple would fold for a few comments from nonchristians. I will not ever buy anything that Apple produces or sells in the future.”

So you will boycott a company that actually has tried to establish some norms in what it will distribute on its smart phones (no porn for example), and what is your alternative? Google’s smart phone OS that takes an “anything goes” attitude? Microsoft?

Ah, the sound of stones being cast.  Careful, Paul.

I guess it will take a while for some people to face facts, but it will happen. Homosexuality is naturally occurring, both in humans and other animals. This is widely known, and cannot be denied. The very idea that people can “choose” who they are attracted to is laughable, if you actually think about it. People love who they love, and mistranslations of a 2000+ year old text will not change that. (Look up some of the other “abominations”, as well as what “abomination” meant in Hebrew 2000 years ago). All this hate and fear masquerading as love is just sad. In time, truth will win.

As I said, logic and rational thought will never work on a community of people that have been blindly opposing it for thousands of years. To quote a text that is riddled with contradictions, not to mention written by people who did not have the vaguest understanding of the world in which they lived, is the height of folly. By the arguments listed here, god created homosexuals only to watch them burn. Somehow, this does not align with image of a loving compassionate god.
Homosexuality and abortion are issues that have been accepted by society at large save for the conservative right who insist on flogging a dead horse. Again, the self-serving hypocrisy which so infuriates those of us who choose not to believe.
Then there is the issue of the self-righteous zeal (which has nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity) which prompts the convenient picking and choosing of what tenets to follow. Does the line “judge not lest ye be judges” hold no sway over you? According to the doctrines of Christianity, its not humanity’s job to condemn.
Finally, I feel the need to quote Niels Bohr, who responded to Einstein’s famous statement concerning the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Einstein refused to accept the theory, claiming that “god does not play dice with the universe” To that Niels Bohr said:
“Stop telling god what to do”

Misleading headline… distortion of the truth is still a lie.

Reply to Kyle Fullerton.
Dear Kyle
Morality and social actions are not validated by a majority.  If a majority thought that homosexuals should be rounded up and executed would that make it right?

On the subject of abortion, pro abortionists do not have a definition of life but have a variable opinion as to when life starts.

Here is a link to a short video “Everyone Against Abortion, Please Raise Your Hand!”
http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.aspx

Take care

Mike

I know this for a fact ..I SHALL NEVER BUY ANOTHER PRODUCT made by Apple again, The company has an odorous smell emitting from it. I used to buy several of its products too. It is a gutless company not worthy of my patronage.

Kyle your postings come acrossed as someone who is very arrogrant.  Do you really believe you are the only intelligent person on this blog?  Is it that anyone who dares to disagree with you is intellectually inferior,uneducated and does not understand the world or history?  Everyone else is “insulting” abortionists and homosexuals but you would never see yourself as insulting those who have different beliefs.

So far there is no evidence that people are born gay.  Do people choose to be gay - not really, however they can be lead into that life style. A few years ago high school girls thought it was cool but that seems to have past, however their are those who prey on children knowing that the sooner they can get to them the better chance they will become homosexuals. I have copied a quote that you might find helpful “GLSEN is the chief national advocacy group promoting policies to force affirmation of homosexuality in schools, beginning in kindergarten. Jennings wrote the foreword for a book, “Queering Elementary Education,” which among other things praises teaching masturbation to a 7-year-old girl. He has spoken publicly about a high school student he once counseled who was in a sexual relationship with an older man—yet Jennings never reported this abuse to the authorities, the school, or the child’s parents.”

Reply to Kyle Fullerton.
Morality and social actions are not validated by a majority.  If a majority thought that homosexuals should be rounded up and executed would that make it right?

Don’t be fooled

http://www.culturewars.com/2010/Unity.htm

Things are getting even worse within the world of ‘gay’ activism.  We are now being introduced to ‘good news’ that young gay men may bea able to take a low dose of antiretrovirals to help avoid HIV, because of one study.  Why don’t they simply refrain from the type of promiscuous homosexual sex that leads to terrible deadly STDs?  Oh, and we may all have to pay medical insurance costs for this type of ‘preventative’ treatment, and there is the risk of promoting drug-resistant strains of HIV as well.  Heaven help us, but then again, I’m just a ‘hater’.

Let’s keep in mind that it’s two separate arguments 1) Whether gay marriage should be allowed, 2) Whether gay relationships are morally acceptable. Everyone is perfectly free to consider gay relationships immoral, but that does not give you the right to deny gays equal marriage rights under the law. Otherwise, we should also be trying to outlaw several other things we consider immoral, such as co-habitation, no-fault divorce, remarriage without an annulment.

@Cynthia

Firstly, I never assume anything about anyone. All I have done is point out logical flaws, present both in the article and in the replies posted here.
I do not assume that I am automatically superior to anyone, for any reason. However, the pursuit of willful ignorance sets my teeth on edge. The kindest way I can describe this article is propaganda. And I am assuming that if you can read, write and have access to the internet, you should have at least had the education to recognize that. Which means that you choose to ignore that fact because it helps inflate your sense of self-righteousness (I do not necessarily mean you per say, I am generalizing).
The difference between my views and that of the average right-wing conservative is that I do not feel a moral compulsion to attack and denigrate those whose beliefs oppose my own. However, the moral implication comes into play when I see people doing it and use their religious beliefs as a shield. No religion grants one moral superiority over anyone else. Particularly one that prides itself on being compassionate and understanding. Having been raised Christian, I am aware of the tenets of the faith, and as i mentioned before, it is not the duty of humanity to judge. Therefore, it is very hypocritical to do so. I fail to see the arrogance in pointing that out.
I would also love to know why you cited that example. Applying reductio et absurdum, your argument would indicate that all homosexuals were perversely led. However I know you do not mean this as statistically, one incident does not indicate a trend, so do me the courtesy of not assuming I implied anything of the sort. I have never and will never advocate the twisted manipulation of children, be the driving impulse heterosexual or homosexual. As I’m sure you are aware, there are far more children abused by heterosexual individuals than homosexual. And you know I could bring the Catholic priest argument into this, so please, don’t tempt me.
I also find it rather amusing that you cite a lack of evidence for genetic homosexuality considering that, by enlarge, Christians are famous for outright ignoring evidence about things such as evolution, the big bang etc etc. Yet you feel no qualms in using a scientific based argument when it suits your purposes. But for the sake of argument, I will let it slide. The reason no “proof” exists for homosexuality being present at birth is really rather simple. Sexuality is not a science. Its a state of being, not a chemical imbalance or nonsense which makes the close minded individuals out there feel better. Ask any homosexual person and they will tell you they were born that way. Or does being gay automatically make u a liar as well.
And finally, do not ever accuse me of arrogance. It takes far more arrogance than I posses automatically discredit the discoveries of people far more intelligent and educated than I can ever hope to be, to dismiss the views and beliefs of others as morally abhorrent when I lack any understanding of them. The simple fact of the matter is most people who hold that gay people and pro-choicers are somehow morally inferior is due to their fear of the unknown. And instead of attempting to learn more about them and empathise with their views, they hide behind dogma and brandish torches.

@Quo Vadis

You are more than just a hater. You’re an idiot.  “the type of promiscuous homosexual sex that leads to terrible deadly STDs?” because heterosexual sex doesn’t lead to the exact same STD’s?. And I hate to break it to you but the prophylactic treatment applies to either gender. Its not aimed only at men. Engage brain, then type.

@ Cynthia.

Yes, I do believe that I am intellectually superior to this twit.

We were going to buy our daughter an iPod for Christmas.  Not now.  If Apple wants to side with extremism and censorship while pretending to be above it all, we will spend our money elsewhere.

@Kyle Wow.  My caricature meter just exploded.

Kyle Fullerton writes

“Christians are famous for outright ignoring evidence about things such as evolution, the big bang etc etc.”
Reply
It might be pointed out the the big bang was a Christian discovery by Georges Lemaître and a Jesuit at that.  Georges Lemaître called his proposal the primaeval atom.  Fred Hoyle ridiculed the idea calling it the Big Bang as a term of derision.
The life and work of Mgr Lemaître can be found on the University of Louvain web site the link is given below.

http://www.uclouvain.be/en-204119.html

” favor gay marriage and abortion” ? enough said. this is not about live and let live, it’s about making life as difficult for others as possible.

I’m sure there’s a reason why someone would need to make a statement like this, but really, it should be limited to FOX News and similar venues. And lets not get started with the hypocrisy of people that hold high values they themselves are unable to live up to (how many closeted christian pastors did we count so far?)

BTW, There’s nothing sacred about marriage, which is really a fancy word for a business transaction. The variations across different cultures and it’s history, indicate that this is more of an “institution” of what was common, rather then a “spiritual” act.

@Pam You are taking away a person’s rights when you say they are not allowed to get married. I find Christianity to be offensive because it purposely brainwashes children with fearmongering and telling them to blindly obey anyone in authority.

@Alfred I never made mention of any such thing.  There are studies however, that show it is not a conscious choice.  They don’t control who gets them hot any more than I do.

But this really isn’t about homosexuality. It’s about the open forum of ideas. What I find most offensive is the willingness of any side (especially one that marches to the drum of “tolerance”) to use muscle to close the open forum to ideas they find offensive. When orthodox Christians talk about not wanting discussions or depictions of homosexuality in the media, the cry goes out “intolerance ! censorship !”. So what is this ? I am also aware of how many people were upset by Steve Jobs’ decision to NOT allow pornography access to the iPad and iPhone.

It isn’t about principle or justice. It’s about whose ox is being gored.

I will gladly take all Apple computers, iPads and iPhones off your hands. For a low price of course, now that they are “Tainted”.

How much will you give me for my Powerbook 190CS, Snarf?

Apple is not about open-source or free speech. The Apple App store is controlled. They seek to maximize shareholder value over time.

This sort of shunting is what wil happen to the internet in a few years has Net Neutrality gets wiped out.

Next up:
When the cable & telecoms lobby finally succeeds and gets congress to eliminate of “net neutraility” sites like this one will become second-class status relegated to the slow lanes. 
Winners: Telcoms, big corps, big dollar media.

Losers: non profits, small business, open free forums, individual citizens .............

I am actually glad that Apple removed the app.  I am so tired of reading Catholic and Christian bloggers applaud Apple for their strict censorship of their app store.

Why would we want to allow secular mainstream media to decide what we can read? 

The job of keeping porn and other offensive material away from our kids is up to us.  We should never try to pass this vital task off to people we don’t trust.

Now we have the worst of both worlds!  Our kids are still flooded with porn but we cannot express our religious beliefs.

Because our Catholic beliefs are true we have nothing to fear from an open exchange of ideas.  I recommend that we support the uncensored Adroid platform where we are free to speak openly about our faith.

@FFS wrote “BTW, There’s nothing sacred about marriage, which is really a fancy word for a business transaction. The variations across different cultures and it’s history, indicate that this is more of an “institution” of what was common, rather then a “spiritual” act.”
Tell that to the children of the “business” transaction.  Marriage is between one man and one woman to protect the children that they NATURALLY create.  Thus, these natural products of marriage (children) can have the privilege of being raised by their biological, married, working together, in-it-for-the-long-haul, love-those-kids-‘cuz-they’re-ours, parents. This alone is the purpose of the special status given to marriage.

Also, I realize that this should not be a discussion of the nature of same sex attraction but when I see nonsense about how “gays are born gay” it really irks me.

How can you ignore the fact that humans seem to be on a kind of gay-straight continuum?  Most people are deeply repulsed by gay sex.  Another very small group are so afflicted that they can only function sexually in a deviate relationship.  For these two groups, sexuality is not a choice and nothing can change it.  However there is a third group in the middle that can literally go either way.  These are the people who are put in harm’s way by society’s acceptance of the gay lifestyle.  In a society that rejects promiscuity and perversion these people find it easier to make good choices and lead decent lives.  In a society that celebrates deviance they are easily lured into degradation and anonymous sex. 

It is especially troubling the way that young people are being encouraged to self-identify as gay at an early age.  It is a fact that in the past most young people who experimented with gay sex grew up to be normal healthy adults.  What is going to happen now that troubled teens are being told that their feelings of adolescent uncertainly mean that they are gay and and that is perfectly OK?  Here is what is going to happen: People who would have bounced back and gone on to live happy healthy lives are instead led into a lifetime of perversion and sin.

So yes, it is probably true that there is a tiny minority of people who could never achieve a normal healthy sexuality.  But MOST people who live the gay lifestyle are capable of choosing how to express their sexuality.  We can help these people make the right choice by emphasizing the importance and the rewards of real marriage and family life.

MMOCONNOR

I think you VASTLY overestimate the number of people who could truly go either way. Most people, even those who are sexually confused, can identify which sex they feel they can love on a long-term basis. With the extreme bias against homosexuality, one must be *very* sure that it’s the only option in order to accept themselves and express their true desires to the world.

“These are the people who are put in harm’s way by society’s acceptance of the gay lifestyle”

I think you have it backward. By NOT accepting the gay *reality* (gay people have as varied “lifestyles” as straight people), you are harming people, both gay AND straight (see below).

For gay people, the harm is beyond obvious. I’m sure you’ve heard of the “It gets better” project, aimed at young gay people to discourage them from suicide. I highly recommend you take the time to watch this man speak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax96cghOnY4

Why would all of these young gay people commit suicide, if as you say, their “lifestyle” is accepted?

How does it harm straight people, you ask?

Isn’t is better for a gay man to marry another gay man, than to play pretend and potentially ruin the life of a woman by marrying her and yet not being capable of truly loving her? How in the world does that defend the SANCTITY of marriage?

Suppressing these desires and fooling themselves into believing they can just get married to the opposite sex and “everything will be fine” is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Assuming you have a daughter, would you want her to marry a sexually-confused man? is that BETTER somehow? No. “Bounced back”? highly dubious.

Tom; I’m not taking anyone’s rights away stating the truth of what marriage is.  Two homosexuals can not create life by having a sexual union.  They have a sexual relationship but not a marriage.  Kyle; It is not bigoted to say something is not moral.  Stealing is not moral. Adultery is not moral.  When you were raised in your Christian faith, part of the raising was forming your conscience correctly.  You were created by God for God.  You need to know Him and what He asks of you.  He asks you to live in the spirit, not the flesh.  If you or anyone is “owned” by their sexuality they are not yet God’s.  It is not judging to know what God asks and to state it.  God bless.

Marietta,  You are ignoring the attack on our adolescents making them doubt their heterosexuality.  Teenagers are going through so many changes and are eager to be accepted by anyone and rebelling can be cool at that age.  You are off base about this. There are many groups and individuals eager to help any depressed teenager.  Homosexual teens aren’t the only ones who consider suicide.

@Kyle - Since you believe that I have been have been blindly opposing logic and rational thought for thousands of years, I suppose my remarks will not enlighten you. I speak to those who read your comments, so that I might offer them a different “take” on your assumptions, which I find at odds with my understanding of my faith.

Let me make clear that what any given person claiming affiliation with a given religion actually says or does might not necessarily agree with what their religion actually teaches. I can, at one time, be a Catholic and still say things here that are at odds with what the Church teaches. That does not make the Church wrong, if there is any wrong to be doled out, it makes me wrong.

To make an argument with a statement on this board is not to argue with the Church, nor to prove nor even to assert her error. To argue with the Church, first learn what the Church teaches (read the Catechism), then argue with that.

Of course God did not make homosexuals to watch them burn. The Church doesn’t hate homosexuals. The Church doesn’t condone disordered acts. And that’s where the judging comes in. The Church judges homosexual acts as disordered acts, grave sins.

“Homosexuality and abortion are issues that have been accepted by society at large…”

One of my personal heroes Archbishop Fulton Sheen is quoted as saying “The truth is still the truth even if no one believes it; a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.”

It is not the position of the Church to follow society; rather it is her position to lead society. Some parts of society will forever be at odds with her. So, it is understandable that “large groups” of people would find Christianity offensive. It’s been like that since the beginning.

Pray for me. I’ll pray for you.
Ken

marietta:
One of the absurdities of the gay lifestyle movement is the notion that by asking people with same sex attraction to control themselves and not act on their desires, we are somehow singling them out for special hardship.  The fact is that we ALL feel the hardship of controlling our appetites.  All celibate people and even most married people experience long periods of frustration.  The deeper point you are missing about sexuality is that it will ALWAYS be disordered if it is made the highest priority in life.

As far as gay suicide…  It has been shown conclusively that profound same sex attraction is a mental disorder and is associated with all kinds of other mental disorders ranging from suicide to eating disorders to substance abuse etc etc.  And no, this is not because gay people are oppressed by society.  Gay people have a many many times higher than average rate of mental disorder in even the most permissive societies.

I have watched the “it gets better” videos and I was appalled by them.  I cannot think of anything more evil than to lead impressionable young people into a lifestyle of depravity, disease and sin.

@Pam

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you are implying. That a heterosexual teen would pretend to be gay to “rebel”? With regards to depression, I think that if a teen is gay and all they hear is words like “disorder”, “abomination”, “deviant”, etc. then it’s likely that they could become depressed and eventually commit suicide. However I don’t understand how a straight teen who is depressed for other reasons could be led to believe they are gay, as if that would “solve” their problems instead of create many more? I just don’t see it. And of course homosexual teens aren’t the only ones to commit suicide, but how does that preclude helping gay teens who commit suicide *because* of it? What I am trying to get at is that by insisting on labelling homosexuality (and homosexuals) with these terrible terms, this perpetuates the psychological damage they face. Homosexuality has been around as long as humans have, and we can’t wish it away or pretend it isn’t there, or that somehow these people are “wrong”.

@Ken I completely agree re: “the truth.” It’s just that I believe that the truth is that demonizing homosexuality causes immeasurably more damage than accepting it does. It’s not like all of a sudden more people will be gay, it’s just that those who are will not live a life of emotional torment. I can’t understand this irrational fear that by accepting homosexuality, people who would otherwise be straight will suddenly say, “you know what? I think I’ll like the same sex now”. It’s patently ridiculous.

MMOCONNOR

I COMPLETELY agree that “The deeper point you are missing about sexuality is that it will ALWAYS be disordered if it is made the highest priority in life.” And that we all must control our urges, and eventually see them for what they are, hormones. I think any man can understand the constant urges of other women but realize that ultimately that pleasure is fleeting, and damaging a loving relationship is just stupid. BUT this assumes that the person has an outlet. Telling a man “I have my wife, but you must spend your life alone and realize that you are an abomination, so sit in your room and don’t you DARE love another man, you sick creature” is PROFOUNDLY, PROFOUNDLY CRUEL. it can only lead to TERRIBLE things, that I need not bring up in this community. As for your second point, I can only ask “which came first?” If you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation, then I can spend no more time discussing anything with you.

MMOCONNOR:
“I cannot think of anything more evil than to lead impressionable young people into a lifestyle of depravity, disease and sin.”

No, these videos are trying to lead them AWAY from that. How can one not understand that?

Which is more evil, telling someone that they are an abomination and denying who they are, or ACCEPTING them?

@DW you’re clearly not aware of divorce rates, adoption (by gays, or not) and other mechanisms in exist that show that NATURAL parenting is a myth. People can be god PARENTS for an adopted child, and NATURAL parents can be horrible to their own flesh and blood. The NATURAL aspects of parenting is volatile, and depends on many factores that have nothing to do with the blood relationship, formal recognition or anything else other then the ability parents have to properly raise their children.

Marietta, Your logic is false.  Teenagers are a bundle of hormones.  They need clear guidance on overcoming all kinds of things, physical and spiritual. We won’t call sin a sin because it makes people feel bad? Or isn’t it better to say, this is a sin.  That means as good as it may appear to you at this time, it is NOT your friend. We know ways to overcome this temptation.  Let us help you.  Denying the reality of a condition perpetuates the condition.  The point is repentance.  No one here is pointing a finger and saying “You horrible human being.”  And if a child is feeling that or someone is saying that, then those close to him or her need to counsel them.  The Church is saying we all have crosses to overcome.  Self pity is destructive in any form.  Denial is destructive. And you are kidding yourself if you don’t think kids are bullied or coerced or seduced into the gay lifestyle.  Schools are messing with their natural inclinations and encouraging “experimentation”,  Coaches and role models are using their influence to attract kids.  Some people just stereotype based on appearances and wear a child down into believing something that isn’t even true.  I have seen it.  You have too if you are honest with yourself.  We need to always keep Jesus’ passion before our eyes.  Sin caused and causes Him incredible suffering.  He sweat blood, He was beaten and spit upon. He was whipped and punched and mocked and humiliated and half dead He was made to carry a wooden cross and throughout it all His Father asked Him to LOVE us.  With Him, any homosexual or any sinner of any kind can put up with counseling or celibacy or name calling or heartache and still LOVE.  HE is the answer.  Not denial.

As per the assertion that sexuality is something which is chosen, I think it would be helpful to consider the dynamics of “choice” of what is meant precisely by this term. For example, would it be accurate to propose that one chooses to become an addicted cigarette smoker? Is his addiction an object of choice? Choosing to remove a cigarette from its package and to smoke it might be thought of as a ‘particular’ instance of choice, while the choosing to be bereft of choice - to be addicted - is not a matter of a ‘particular’ instance and act of choice, but the consequence of the general accretion of any number of poorly chosen acts - in this scenario, perhaps a tendency to generally hold one’s health in poor regard, making choices which tend toward the decline of health rather than its edification. The addiction to cigarettes is then not something which is a particular instance of choice, but the consequence of a number of decisions throughout one’s life which disregard health, and which take the form of leading to the smoking ‘lifestyle’.

Correction: I meant to state that I challenge the assertion that sexuality is NOT something which is chosen . . .

@Pam “Schools are messing with their natural inclinations and encouraging “experimentation”,  Coaches and role models are using their influence to attract kids.” This is bogus. A teen will not suddenly become gay, unless they are already gay. Who would experiment with a sexuality they find repulsive? It makes absolutely no sense. Telling gay people they can be changed is CRUEL because it is false, and countless people who have gone through “Ex-Gay” programs have admitted this. Indeed, Denial is destructive.

@John - An interesting analogy, but ultimately it doesn’t hold true with the reality of homosexuality. Millions of ex-smokers have HONESTLY overcome an addiction to smoking. Convincing someone who is gay that it can be overcome, like smoking, may actually provide them with false comfort, but ultimately it will prove to be extremely damaging, as it is NOT POSSIBLE. “Expect a life of denial” - Alan Chambers, leader of Exodus, an “ex-gay” group. As seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5dMNdW5gLY Watch some videos of “Ex-gay” people. they are CLEARLY still gay.

Here is the leader of a major of a major ExGay organization, admitting “We can’t change people”. He took 9 months to consummate his marriage after “leaving” homosexuality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYsusY1ALQ

My argument boils down to this: Pretending that homosexuality can be overcome is extremely damaging both to gay and straight people who get caught up in this lie. And living a life of unchosen celibacy and denial is not an alternative.

Dr. Robert L. Spitzer - a psychiatrist who was a former champion of the notion that change is not possible for homosexuals, and who was actually instrumental in having homosexuality removed from the DSM - has now has changed his position, and knows that change is possible:

http://www.narth.com/docs/spitzer3.html

@John Dr. Spitzer has since gone on record to say that he had difficulty in even finding *100* people for the study, which has been widely criticized and not replicated. He also regrets that it has been used to convince gay people they can change, since it’s “rare”. One needs only to watch testimony of people who have “changed” (as well as the leaders of such organizations) to know what a lie it is. 

As for the site containing that article, this interview with the man behind it sort of destroys his credibility, and even his own intellectual honesty. Is that the reaction of a truthful, genuine person?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DOCeenjAio&feature=related

As an aside, I am very grateful for sites like youtube, since video is generally much better at exposing liars when one knows what to look for. Unlike text, with video you can see their eyes, and hear their tone of voice and other “tells” indicating when someone is not speaking the truth.

Further to Marietta’s comments - I’m not sure what exactly you mean when you wrote “Millions of ex-smokers have HONESTLY overcome an addiction to smoking”; are you suggesting that it is somehow possible to dishonestly quit smoking? Do you mean to suggest that it is possible to quit smoking without craving the activity again? Has one only “honestly” quit if one is free from cravings? My mother was a heavy 30 year smoker, and gave it up after cancer killed her 33 year old daughter, my sister. Though she now suffers from both emphysema and COPD, she still craves smoking from time to time. Does this make her quitting “dishonest” or somehow less real?

Yet further to Marietta’s comments - I don’t feel the argument from difficulty or rarity justifies any stasis. Many alcoholics have found it impossible to give up drinking; does this make the activity licit - does it thereby justify his continuing to drink?

@John I’m very sorry about your sister. I was staying with my grandparents the night my grandfather died of emphysema. I’ll never forget waking up in the middle of the night to the sound of my grandmother crying and knowing exactly why. I have since avoided smoking, out of respect. With my comment I was trying to contrast the number of people who have quit smoking with those who have been able to HONESTLY “quit” homosexuality, which is, I argue, basically impossible. Every single person who I have watched who claims to have changed from gay to straight is clearly still gay. Equating addiction, be it to sex, cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, etc. to homosexuality is a lie, and harmful to all involved.

@John Alcoholism is proven to cause damage, it will kill you. Homosexuality on the other hand, will not. The damage comes from not accepting it, and being told that you are inferior. That’s the terrible irony of this whole situation. When you systematically subject homosexuals to psychological abuse, they end up screwed up and in unhealthy relationships. Then you use them as an example of why homosexuality is wrong. Now that gay people have had the courage to live their lives openly and in healthy relationships, this will be harder to do.

@FFS wrote ” People can be god PARENTS for an adopted child, and NATURAL parents can be horrible to their own flesh and blood. The NATURAL aspects of parenting is volatile, and depends on many factores that have nothing to do with the blood relationship, formal recognition or anything else other then the ability parents have to properly raise their children.”
I do not disagree that adoptive parents can be good parents.  I also don’t disagree that some biological parents can be bad parents.  From here on out I will be speaking only of biological parents:  It is a known fact that far less abuse of children occurs when the children are living with biological, married parents (notice I didn’t day 100%). As soon as a “live-in” partner comes into a child’s life, the incidence of abuse increases (notice again I didn’t say 100% of “live-in” partners abuse) .  This is why marriage exists: to unite the mother to the father of their mutual children for the raising of said children. 
If you are going to throw out marriage because of the exceptions or because it is not 100% perfect, than you will be “throwing the baby out with the bath water.”

“Every single person who I have watched who claims to have changed from gay to straight is clearly still gay.”

Quite a hilarious statement!  Don’t you know that a person is whatever they self-identify as?  If they say they are ex-gay then they are ex-gay; your opinion has no bearing on their sexual identity just as my saying “you’re an idiot” has no bearing on your intelligence.

@marietta wrote “And living a life of unchosen celibacy and denial is not an alternative.”
Why not remain celibate?  All single heterosexuals are asked to do the same.  With God, all things are possible.
I think our culture has lost sight of the fact that, with God, all things are possible because we instead have adopted the “with contraceptives, all sex is good.”

@SteveP. yeah that statement does come across as stupid. I can’t prove that a person hasn’t “changed” merely by observation. (Though I stand by that observation.) That said, I think people should be called out on hypocrisy when their lies are used to hurt others. If a man feels he is no longer gay and chooses to marry a woman, that’s his (and the woman’s!) business. If he publicly states that he has changed his sexuality, and can help others do the same (for a small fee of course) then he opens himself up to scrutiny. I also respect Barney Frank’s rule about not outing a closeted politician unless they are actively using their power to oppress gay people, when they themselves are gay. See Ted Haggard + countless others, as examined in the documentary “Outrage”.

@DW Telling someone they must be celibate is not the same as someone choosing to be celibate, or simply not having the urge to love other human beings.

To judge means to have an opinion.

@marietta: If he says “It hurts me that you do not accept my assertion of sexual identity” would you still stand by your observation?

Marietta - I’m sorry to hear about your Grandfather’s illness and passing; I’m sure he took comfort from your presence throughout this time. As to your stating that “Equating addiction, be it to sex, cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, etc. to homosexuality is a lie” - I think that if you read my comments again, you will see that I did not equate the two, but simply used the former by way of analogy to illustrate my understanding of choice. Additionally, as per the claim that “The damage comes from not accepting it, and being told that you are inferior”, or that it is by means of repression or psychological abuse that the damage occurs, consider the following findings from a study conducted in the radically liberal Netherlands: “It is claimed, that the high rates of mental illness among homosexuals are the result of ‘homophobia’. However, even in the Netherlands, which has been far more tolerant to same-sex relationships and which has recently legalised same-sex marriages, high levels of psychiatric illness, including major depression, bipolar disorder (‘manic depression’), agoraphobia, obsessive compulsive disorder and drug addiction are found. (Sandfort TG, et al. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders: findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS). Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001; 58 :85-91.) “

@SteveP If they are taking money and perpetuating hogwash and causing harm to people, then yes I would do all I can to expose their fraud. If not, it’s their own business. I can’t tell someone to stop lying to themselves, only to others. That’s all I can hope to do, to call BS when I see it. And this ex-gay stuff is 100% BS.

@John Gibson. Thanks. The conclusions of that study in no way contradict my statement. From the abstract of the study itself: “Conclusion: The findings support the assumption that people with same-sex sexual behavior are at greater risk for psychiatric disorders.” And while the Netherlands may be more open to gay people, I think it’s a fair assumption that even in a tolerant society, realizing that one is gay and different from the vast majority of people in a profound way is very difficult to accept and leads to feelings of isolation and alienation. In an intolerant society, it’s that much worse.

Marietta - as per your assertion that “The conclusions of that study in no way contradict my statement”; well, if we look at your statement - that psychological damage occurs via one’s being told one is inferior and other such unfortunate psychological abuse - and if we look also to the findings in the Netherlands, where homosexuality has long been accepted - how could your statement not be contradicted? I.e., in a nation where homosexuality is accepted quite utterly a homosexual person is unlikely to be qualified as inferior, given the mood of acceptance there. The realization, as you put it, that one is “different from the vast majority of people” (who among us is otherwise?) cannot be equated with that vast majority telling you that you are in some way inferior, if, as in the Netherlands, such is not the case; the burdon of responsibility in that context cannot be shifted from the subjective feelings of the individual to the collective; this would in some ways be setting up the collective as a virtual scapegoat.

@marietta wrote “Telling someone they must be celibate is not the same as someone choosing to be celibate, or simply not having the urge to love other human beings.”
You are equating sex with love.

@John -  I simply mean that the conclusions stated by the study: “gay people at higher risk for psychiatric disorders” does not contradict my general repeated statement that “telling gay people that they are deviants/abominations is psychologically harmful”. Beyond that, I don’t quite understand what you are implying by “this would in some ways be setting up the collective as a virtual scapegoat.” Not being gay nor having grown up in the Netherlands, I don’t care to speculate.

@DW No, I’m not. Though to be fair, they often come together. Do you not believe that homosexuals are capable of love?

Marietta - with all due respect, telling anybody - gay or straight - that they are deviant is indeed difficult for that person to hear - whether or not it is psychologically harmful is not so certain; what if awareness of one’s deviance leads to a healthier life? But regardless, what the research in the Netherlands seems to be suggesting, is that there are higher incidences of psychiatric disorders in the homosexual population in that nation - and this apart from their being oppressed or told they are deviant in that accepting society. The mental anguish that is felt in this scenario must necessarily have its origin elsewhere than psychological abuse. Could it be that there is an inherent awareness in those individuals, that their lifestyle is problematic in some form - i.e., that it itself is that very thing which gives rise to the mental anguish? In the absence of any societal oppression - what otherwise could it be?

@marietta Yes, because they are human beings, homosexuals are capable of love.  Human beings are capable of loving many other different people and things.  That doesn’t mean that they should have sex with them. Sexual intercourse is therefore reserved for one man and one woman in marriage and should be always open to the procreation of children.  Having sex in any other situation is a misuse of sexual intercourse regardless of the love felt between the people (or things as it may be).

@John: What do you mean by this: “what if awareness of one’s deviance leads to a healthier life?”

@DW If a man loves with another man and would like to have sex with him, then you or I have no business telling him what to do. I reiterate: homosexuality is natural, both in humans in animals, and will continue to exist as long as humans exist.

Marietta - if one’s form of deviance is, say, selfishness (note that I am not equating this with homosexuality, but merely using it as an example) - and say this selfishness is brought to one’s attention, and one thereafter becomes unselfish - then that awareness of deviance has led to a healthier life. And in your response to DW you make a case for the acceptance or ‘naturality’ of homosexuality on the merits of such occurring also in animals; are you saying that any behaviour that occurs in the animal world is therefore natural also for humans?  How about coprophagy (eating of feces) or incest, polygamy, infanticide, matricide, patricide - are these too therefore natural and licit for humans? And please note again that I am equating none of these activities with homosexuality, but only trying to refute your claim extending the behaviour of animals to that of people

@John: I’m not sure I understand the relation between a habit such as selfishness, which one can change, and homosexuality, which one cannot. If you are not equating them, then why even bring it up? Analogies can be useful, but they can also be used to imply things without outright saying anything. So what are you saying?  Are you saying that homosexuals who are made aware of it can somehow change it? or that they should suppress their feelings? As for the animal behaviours listed, and I’m not sure why you chose the ones you did, but no, of course I don’t think that we should engage in them. How do those relate to homosexuality?

Marietta - I brought up selfishness (as an example) simply to explain what you had asked me to explain, namely, how an awareness of one’s deviance can lead one to a healthier life. As per implying things as a way to express oneself - well, I think you know where I stand on homosexuality, so I cannot see any reason why I should require recourse to implication as a means to assert myself. Sometimes one simply must provide examples from outside the context of a given discourse, that’s all. And yes, as the study I’ve referred to has indicated, I do believe that homosexuals can change. However, I do not mean to suggest that this is fail safe, that it is all-inclusive; there are many grey areas involved - for instance, trans-gendered individuals - I wouldn’t propose that any of this issue is so simple as to be subject to a “yes/no” solution. For me, what I most definitely would propose as a “yes/no” issue, is violence or any form of hatred toward homosexuals; and I do not believe that being opposed to one constitutes hatred of that person - just to be clear. And as per behaviour in the animal kingdom, I brought this up simply to follow up on your first bringing such up; forgive me if I am wrong, but I took your words “homosexuality is natural, both in humans in animals” to mean that since the behaviour occurs in animals, it is thereby justified in humans.

Thank you, marietta, for an honest answer.  May God bless you and keep you.

@John - As I previously mentioned, I can’t put much stock in the Spitzer study, when the results have never been replicated, and the author has gone on record saying it’s “rare”. I do know that I’ve seen testimony of several leaders of ex-gay organizations DIRECTLY SAYING that they can’t change gay people’s sexuality. I can provide clips if you like. I did not mean to imply that if something occurs in the animal kingdom, therefore it’s acceptable for humans. I simply wanted to counter the argument that homosexuality is a “choice”, or that it’s caused by “predators convincing confused teens” or some such hogwash. I have no idea why homosexuality exists, but I accept that it does, and that telling someone that their genuine feelings of love are somehow wrong is profoundly arrogant, and cruel.

Marietta - unfortunately I have now to be away from my computer for several days, so cannot continue our discussion. But let me say that I really quite deeply appreciate the honesty, respect, and civility that you’ve shown in debating this sensitive issue. Though it seems we cannot agree, I certainly appreciate (and admire) your decency and courtesy - things which are so frightfully rare in comments sections of late.

Marietta you are unwilling to accept that many factors influence a persons choice of sexual expression. Relationships with parents or peers, and predatory people.  Your reasoning is all emotional.  How it “feels”.  Unfortunately for society, you are only looking at how it feels for one group, not the whole.  And quite frankly the gay lobby is quite powerful and financially flush so yes, some would join the homosexual community despite the stigma.  Also, the human body responds to touch.  When children who are vulnerable are introduced to things they shouldn’t be or are psychologically driven to believe they are homosexual or are fragile and vulnerable, the fact that their body responds is enough to convince some kids it must be so.  They are innocents and they are victims.  This is sin and society is being hurt.

@marietta This isn’t about “telling people what to do.”  This is about the purpose of sexual intercourse.  Biology doesn’t lie here.  Sexual intercourse is for the creation of new life. 
As John Gibson aptly pointed out, just because something happens in nature doesn’t mean it should happen.  Furthermore, we are not animals, we are human beings with the ability to reason.

Marietta (and all) - How somebody becomes or comes to be a homosexual and what that means is surely a complex matter. How they come to stop being one is surely just as complex.

The problem is what do we do about it. Even if it were impossible to change somebody’s sexual orientation, that doesn’t determine the morality of it. We all have our own disorders or things we struggle with. Having a disorder is not a sin. It’s the free choices we make from there that matters. The choices we may be called to make may be very, very difficult.

Absolute morality is not defined by the difficulty of a situation, how many people are doing it, or by how accepted it is. Further, the assumption that by treating homosexual relationships as “morally acceptable” that it will make the cross carried by homosexuals any lighter is unfounded. I would argue, as would Christian teaching and the Catholic Church, that it ultimately makes their burden much heavier. We don’t do anyone any favors by encouraging them to do something that is not good for them (even if it does seem like the easier road).

The idea that if we would just “accept” homosexuality as “good” then homosexuals could lead much healthier lives is not a sound one.  It may seem like an easy fix is to simply remove the social stigma against homosexuality, but it doesn’t get to the root of what is really causing the struggle in their life…which is their homosexuality and most likely the conditions or events in their lives that have either led them to it or enabled/encouraged them to pursue it. That is what we should focus on. Of course, we do need to work to remove any unjust prejudice against somebody who may be struggling with homosexuality. They must be loved. But part of loving them is to be truthful about their disorder with them. Here is an article I read recently that talks to this point a little bit if anyone is interested: http://nomblog.com/2105/

God bless you all.

@M who posted Saturday, Dec. 4 at 3:39 pm EDT—

Bravo!  Well said.

@John Thanks for the kind words, and right back at you. Indeed this is an emotional issue, and it is hard to discuss calmly and with respect.

@M “How somebody becomes or comes to be a homosexual and what that means is surely a complex matter.” Agreed. “How they come to stop being one is surely just as complex.” Here is where I disagree. I have yet to see any evidence of someone “stopping” to be gay. Those who have claimed this in the past have almost always recanted. Leaders of the “ex-gay” movement, and the people unfortunate enough to have gone through the process have said publicly and repeatedly that they can not change peoples sexual orientation. Those who claim to have actually changed are almost always deluded, and sometimes downright crackpots. (watch some footage of Richard Cohen on youtube). “The idea that if we would just “accept” homosexuality as “good”” No, I don’t mean to imply that it is “good”, just that it is “not inherently bad”, and that it is known to occur across all human societies, and some animal species. Finally, could you explain how accepting homosexuality makes a gay person’s burden “much heavier” than telling them that they “are disordered/an abomination/should change/should stay alone for their whole life”?

Kyle Fullerton, it irks me when people pretend to think logically and to have basic knowledge but fail in the regard. Anal receptive intercourse is linked to a higher degree of HIV and Hepatitis B acquisition. This is a known scientific fact and is also a reason why gay men are the chief group of HIV sufferers in the USA. Many Gay men also have a tendency to be very promiscuous and so transmit HIV easier, due to having numerous sexual partners concurrently, this leads to HIV transmission in periods of higher viral load than most heterosexuals who are more inclined to follow serial monogamous relationships and not relationships involving multiple concurrent partners. Facts are that anal receptive sex is dangerous, more dangerous than heterosexual sex, when before looking at partner number. In addition circumcision is protective regarding HIV in heterosexual relationships but not in homosexual ones. Gay activists, instead of blasting others, should work on their own to cut down on the high degree of risk taking behaviours in their community among MSM (men who have sex with men). Money spend on HIV research could have been spent on cancer research if only people (not just gays) learned to love before they lust. Yeah I know it’s irrational to expect people to have a shred of responsibility in their lives.

@marietta,
Whether you like it or not, gay sex is sinful according to genuine Christian teaching. Lying to gay people and saying that it is ok is anti-Christian. Legalising gay marriage is an OK for this activity as not being sinful, in many peoples’ minds at least.  I agree that it is hard for anyone to abstain for their whole life, but perhaps this is the cross these people need to bear. Perhaps some gay people can form loving relationships with women and start families and not base everything on lust. Our secular culture however teaches us that gay and straight have to be led by lust and greed. The Church teaches the opposite and it is ridiculed but remember that because this teaching is so counter-culture that the Church is ‘out of this world’ so to say. God is not a pop psychologist who says everything is OK. If you want an after life with God, you have to work for it. If you don’t believe in God but the idol of easy sex instead, the point is moot.

@Jeff I will never agree that homosexuality is sinful, so I suppose the effort is wasted on me.  I can only take comfort in the fact that more and more gay people are living honest, healthy and loving lives so the terrible myths and stereotypes painted by hateful people will be increasingly shown for what they are. In the past, since homosexuality was so hidden, these lies and stereotypes could take hold, since there were no real-life counterexamples. Thankfully, this will happen less and less, as more and more people realize that someone in their lives is gay. “Perhaps some gay people can form loving relationships with women and start families and not base everything on lust.” If I can’t convince you of nothing else, please reconsider this view. I think this is absolutely TERRIBLE advice. Here is a woman from wisconsin, who for YEARS thought there was something wrong with HER because her husband physically rejected her repeatedly, and as such was extremely lonely. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIbnCFVuWIA There are countless other such cases.

@Jeff - BRAVO!  Two more well-stated comments.
@Marietta - Regardless of whether you agree, sex outside of marriage (between one man and one woman as God created it) is a sin.  We humans do not define what is an is not a sin.  When we say, “I don’t believe such-and-such a behavior is a sin,” that does not make it so.  It simply means that we are ignoring God and His plan for us.  Therefore, to engage in the behavior and then to excuse it based upon our own definition of sin (relativism) merely compounds the sin.

@Marietta. I repeat, whether you like it or not, ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN TEACHING, homosexual acts of sex are sinful. Now, unless you have proof that St Paul and the Old Testament say something else about homosexual sex, you have to agree with me. Please note that I said CHRISTIAN TEACHING, I did not say Marietta’s Teaching or Jeff’s Teaching. Unless you are the returned Christ or have some archaelogical proof which shows that the teaching we’ve been following is inaccurate please don’t redefine Christian teaching. As much as we’d like it to happen, we can’t pick and choose what we want. Life is tough. The teaching is there. If one believes in the Christian God and bases this belief rationally on the Bible and the teachings of the Church one has to realise what the specifications for a Christian are, amongst other things, that he does not practice sexual intercourse with other men.

Secondly, I realise that it is a terrible burden on a person to not have sex or have sex with a gender opposite to his or her preference, but that while it it sad, does not excuse us to dilute and distort the Christian teaching.

Marietta, there are many people who are closet pedophiles too, and there are probable great numbers of people who have no sexual attraction to anyone at all, as well as many people who are sexually attracted to the same sex who are married with opposite gendered persons. They choose to stay in their marriages. These people bear a great burden and God will probably reward them more than heterosexuals with good temperament who have no problem following this teaching themselves.

I realise your points that you think people need to be honest, but above all Christ asks us to be obedient, even when that obedience is not pleasurable. I realise your pain since we all have our own sins and vices but if we want to call ourselves Christians we have to follow what Christ teaches. We should also not undermine this teaching by on the one hand not being involved in homosexual relationships (especially when we’re not gay ourselves) but on the other supporting civil and ultimately church marriage between men and men. I’m sorry that things are not easier.

Thank you.

@Jeff - Thank you for your clarification of HIV risks in gay men vs. straights.  Kyle called me an idiot for questioning why we would continue to worry about HIV transmission in gays while denying the truth about sodomy and its harm to humans.  A virgin man and a virgin woman can marry and have sexual relations in a healthy, unitive and potentially procreative way, as God built us for.  If they have no other sexual partners, they will avoid STD’s.  Gay men can never have ‘safe’ sex -the pieces don’t fit, and never will.  Human love and dignity demand that we tell the Truth, in Love.  As my parents always said when we suffered, ‘offer it up.’

(I usually comment on NCR blogs with just my name, but it looks like an anti-Christian bigot named Tom beat me to the punch on this thread).
***
A few scattered thoughts:
***
On Apple:
The Manhattan Declaration is a deeply thoughtful, scrupulously polite document.  It’s typical of Apple’s heavy-handed foolishness that they would pull it.  Apple has done a brilliant marketing job of convincing hipsters that they’re hippie rebels for using a Mac or a Droid phone, where for all the virus-prone inelegance of Windows, I can at least get under the hood and make things work like I want them to, rather than how Steve Jobs thinks they should.  And when I really have a choice, I’ll just stick to Linux. On that sentiment, a special Catholic Apple-phobe shout-out to Willy, who was nice enough to post here that, though an atheist, he shares this article’s wise disdain for Apple’s walled garden software ecologies, which are so antithetical to everything the Net stands for.
***
On statements that “Christianity is offensive”:
This kind of trolling is pretty breathtaking. Opponents of legal recognition of same-sex relationships as marriages are often tarred as paranoid for stating that gay marriage laws are the thin end of a wedge that will broaden out into generalized secular intolerance of Christianity.  Gay marriage proponents who say that Christianity itself, merely by existing, is somehow offensive, do the gay marriage movement no favors.  I imagine that if I were a proponent of gay marriage, people like Kyle Fullerton and the other Tom posting hereabouts would be pretty face-palm inducing.  Seriously, guys, you’re not doing your cause any favors by trolling.
***
On inherent homosexuality and HIV:
Then again, some of the statement floating around here about homosexuality
and HIV aren’t helping our Catholic cause either. 
First off, I think the data, while inconclusive, tend to lean toward homosexuality being an inborn trait for at least some people.  This is important.  It doesn’t mean homosexual behavior isn’t sinful.  For instance, a recent Swedish study, “Genetic variation in the vasopressin receptor 1a gene (AVPR1A) associates with pair-bonding behavior in humans,” indicated that there is an allele 334 variant that seems to make heterosexual men much more likely to cheat on their partners.  This doesn’t make cheating moral.  But it does mean that those men are wrestling with something that makes it harder for them to be moral.  Similarly, but more seriously, while homosexual sex isn’t moral, many people seem to find that they really are homosexually inclined, and that “ex-gay” therapies and whatnot not only don’t work for them, but just fill them with unhelpful self-hate.  While we Christians can’t pretend that homosexual intercourse isn’t sinful, we need to do a much, much better pastoral job of making it clear that even if someone is going to have be a homosexually oriented person their whole life, that doesn’t make them any less a precious, dignified, magnificent child of God.  It just means that they are going to need a LOT more help and compassion from the wider community with their chastity.
As for HIV, while HIV-infection rates are higher per-capita among gays than straights, I don’t think this has any especial relevance to the gay marriage debate.  Even if AIDS were cured tomorrow, homosexual sex (but not homosexual orientation!) would still be sinful, and so gay “marriage” would still be a bad idea.
**
On straight marriage:
As has been pointed out, the far bigger dangers to a chaste marriage culture in the modern West are the sins of heterosexuals:  pre-marital sex, marital infidelity, rampant divorce, pornography/masturbation addictions, and the ubiquitous media tendency to turn every actress into an unrealistically-photoshopped, misogynistically demeaned sex object.  Besides these cataclysmic sins, the gay marriage debate is a distraction, and a sideshow.  We Christians too often distract ourselves with the splinters in gays’ eyes, while ignoring the beams in our own. This is the Devil at work.
**
On gay “marriage.”
As a theological matter, gay “marriage” is an obvious oxymoron:  however unitive gay sex may be between loving partners, it is an act that can never be procreative *in kind*, as even sex between infertile married couples can be.  And marital sex must be both unitive and procreative in kind, or it isn’t marital.  This much is obvious to anyone who knows natural law, or has perused John Paul the Great’s “Theology of the Body.”
However, as a prudential matter, I wonder if the gay marriage battle is such a wise one for us.  If gays refuse to listen to the Church’s teaching on sexuality, I don’t think a government with a Constitutional barrier on an establishment of religion has great ground for denying them some kind of civil union, so they can share health insurance, have hospital visitations, and have enough federal recognition of their relationship that, if they happen to be “married” to a foreign national, they can have as much right to keep that person in the country as a straight person married to a foreign national would.  Frankly, I think that our bishops’ battle against these legal privileges for gays—however conducive to sin they may be—just lets bigots like Kyle Fullerton and the other Tom paint the Church as cruel in the wider culture.  I think we’d be better off focusing on trying to pair civil union laws for gays, if they insist on them, with covenant marriage laws for the rest of us, so we can focus on the far more important, and far less divisive, task of rebuilding actual heterosexual, one-flesh, one man-one woman marriage.  Indeed, considering the ongoing slaughter of millions of the unborn in this country, I question whether this is the most important issue to be fighting about right now at all, although I realize it’s not an either/or.
***
Sorry for the length of the post, btw.

correction:  “an iPhone INSTEAD of a Droid phone”

annoying second correction (sorry):
“allele 334 variant that makes SOME heterosexual men more likely to cheat”

Tom, Civil unions already exist in our state, (Mass.) and now it isn’t enough.  This is a slippery slope issue.  We are fighting to remain a nation UNDER GOD.

@Pam:
Fair point:  If people are never satisfied until they have more than you can possibly give, it’s pretty tough to find common ground.  (Actually, in MA, I thought it was already pretty much just full “marriage,” there.  No?)

@Tom: Yes, by judicial decree, not by a vote.  And this is what makes this all so spiritually dangerous.  Compassion that makes room for “a little sin(?)”  opens the door for greater sin.  True compassion comforts those caught in the web of sin and leads them out.  It does not make them comfortable in their sin.

@Pam, et al—I hope you are fighting also to make the following illegal, since you obviously believe that whatever you consider sexual sin should be against the law: pre-marital sex, common-law marriage, adultery, no-fault divorce, remarriage (Yes, remarriage is adultery according to Christ), and if you are Catholic, the following should also be illegal, even between married couples: anal sex, oral sex, manual stimulation. You are perfectly free to preach against all these things, but when you want to make it a matter of law, you are a hypocrite of the highest order unless you include ALL these things, not just homosexuality

I’ve intentionally held back on doctrine-specific arguments, but it’s very hard to ignore people decrying “pick-and-choose” interpretations of the bible and then turning around and ignoring the Leviticus-mentioned “abominations” of eating shellfish, wearing mixed cloth, etc. Not trying to be inflammatory, it’s just something to think about. Unless you’ve spoken directly to God, you are relying on thousands of years of interpretation, re-interpretation and changes to an often self-contradicting collection of texts. And so I won’t argue about what is a sin and what isn’t, my concerns are strictly ethical. And believing firmly (based on scientific evidence and personal observation) that homosexuality is innate and unchangeable, I think demonizing gay people is strongly unethical, and cruel.

Marietta and Janet,  As to Janet’s list of sins, yes they are all sins but no one is trying to pass laws to say they are not.  The Church does allow annulments in some cases and yes I know that has gotten out of hand.  Jesus meant what He said.  He knows NOTHING is impossible with God.  He knows we’d rather quit than sacrifice and love.  Marietta, I have seen heterosexuals choose homosexuality because of coercion, rejection, manipulation etc. and I know it is not innate for most if not all.  And since nothing is impossible with God, then it is not unchangeable either.  If you had the faith the size of a mustard seed… Christianity isn’t demonizing you, it is warning you and calling you to a greater love of Christ and neighbor.

janet fernandez: You may misunderstand the definition of hypocrite.  A hypocrite is one who says one thing but does the opposite.  For example, a mother who says spanking a child is immoral but spanks her own child is being a hypocrite.  A man who says he love another man but then treats him as a woman by trying to inseminate him is being a hypocrite.  A person who demands their self-identification be honored but does not honor the self-identification asserted by others is being a hypocrite.

See how that works?  Apple, in this case, gives a fine example of a hypocrite.

Satanism:344
United States Catholic Catechism for Adults

GENESIS 3:1-24
The New American Bible

Sin:528
United States Catholic Catechism for Adults

Psalm 69
The New American Bible

Abortion:391-92
United States Catholic Catechism for Adults

1 TIMOTHY 6:1-10
The New American Bible

steveP I never once said I agreed with the actions of Apple, and for the record, I do not.  And a hypocrite is someone who says gay marriage should not be allowed because it somehow threatens traditional marriage, yet turns around and accepts divorce and remarriage as if it does not threaten the traditional family. If you’re not lobbying to outlaw no-fault divorce, then stop trying to sound so sanctimonious about family and marriage being sacred. You can’t have it both ways.

This is a big mistake on Apple’s part. Every true follower of Jesus should seriously consider boycotting Apple. Why put your money into a company that fights against your cherished values?

Yet again religion is thrown under the bus by mainstream America.  Seriously, how many more hits does Christianity have to take before people realize we have become the minority in this country’s recent trend?  Gay activists seem to find every little niche in our church and attempt to exploit it.  This time they have persuaded one of the best companies this country has to side against us.  As a Catholic, I cannot turn on the news or surf the web without finding some story saying how “outdated” or “hypocritical” our church is.  The sex abuse scandal has set the church back enough, why do other communities feel the need to latch on?  What is most upsetting is the stance Apple has taken.  Yes, I sit here writing this comment on my Apple laptop, checking Twitter on my iPhone, while plugged into the music on my iTunes.  I love Apple and everything that it has stood for, personal expression and freedom from the ordinary.  Now, they are caving in to a “large” number of people who don’t like an app that Apple didn’t make, but simply approved?? Come on Apple, I don’t agree with many views of the Democratic Party, but I’m not sitting here outraged, collecting signatures to petition for the removal of their party’s app.  I respect freedom of expression and believe everybody deserves a medium to communicate their ideas, unfortunately, mine are being taken away.  As Christians/Catholics we are being stripped of our voice and community, how much longer do we have to suffer?

Dan: “As Christians/Catholics we are being stripped of our voice and community, how much longer do we have to suffer?” LOL. the old switcheroo. Yes, you are such a victim. Telling people that they are abominations and getting angry when they refuse to listen to it. The difference here is that YOU are trying to take away THEIR rights. “personal expression and freedom from the ordinary.” Yeah, this sounds like the Catholic Church’s stance too… BTW, you may want to get rid of all that Apple gear:
““Apple was among the first California companies to offer equal rights and benefits to our employees’ same-sex partners, and we strongly believe that a person’s fundamental rights—including the right to marry—should not be affected by their sexual orientation. Apple views this as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue, and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8.”“
http://gizmodo.com/5068441/apple-giving-100000-to-oppose-anti+gay-marriage-proposition-in-ca

Yes we need to keep porn away from our kids, it is our job! Apple still has porno apps?? Bad. Thank God they are doing something about pornogrpahy though. I guess no company is 100% perfect so it doesn’t suprise me that they are not for the Manhattan Delclaration. I am 100% for it.

My parents did not do their job as they actually own pornogrpahy shops. I have started a blog about it from a Catholic perspective. Please pray for us.

In Christ.

http://porn-problem.blogspot.com/

Jones, You have no idea who you are if you don’t know yourself as a child of God.  It is obvious to any mechanic, any builder, anyone, that two male parts and two female parts were not created to work correctly together.  The Bible refers to homosexual relations and other sins as abominations because of the disregard for the will of God and presumption in putting oneself above God.  If you knew how much He loved you and who He is, your sex life would be much less important to you.  Since the sexual revolution of the sixties people have distanced themselves from God.  This hurts us all whether you like to hear it or not.  You are the victim of corrupt times.  We are the victims of your blindness and immoral behavior. God is real. He can be found through His creation even if no one ever taught you about Him.

Pam: “your sex life would be much less important to you”. Why do you presume my sex life is important to me?More importantly, the point I’m trying to make is that other people’s sex lives is of NO importance to me.  By the way, people have been moving away from God since long before the sixties, and will continue to do so. Incidentally, this is one of those issues that will further drive people away from the Church. I’d say in 10-20 years we’ll look back on gay rights as we now look back on women’s rights and civil rights. It’s just not an issue for the younger generation, because we’ve known openly gay people our whole lives, and we know that all of the fear and lies spread about them is rubbish.

Jones, When someone compares the gay rights movement to the women’s movement or the civil rights movement, they are comparing apples and oranges.  Being a woman is not unnatural or sinful. So being discriminated against for that reason alone is wrong.  Being black is not unnatural or sinful. So being discriminated against for that reason alone is sinful. Living a homosexual lifestyle is unnatural and a sin. It has been recognized as immoral and disordered for centuries.  Children are lured into the lifestyle, not born into it.  Not relating normally to the opposite sex is not a good.  It’s like rebelling against calling diabetes an illness. Something is out of order and denial doesn’t help anyone.  The fear you should feel is a fear of offending God, not a fear of a human being.  You were created for eternal life by a God who has overcome all sin. He asks us all to give Him our sins and seek His grace.  He does not want us to love our sins more than Him. No one has taken away anyone’s rights away either.  Apple is taking rights away from Christian’s by removing the Manhattan Declaration app.  You sound like you are speaking for Apple.  If Apple truly believes a persons sexual orientation should not be limited by society then they support pedophilia, incest etc?  They think they can single-handedly redefine the institution of marriage?  Sounds like anarchy to me.

Pam I cannot believe anyone is still so ignorant to think a person can be lured into being gay, as they are lured into using drugs or alcohol. How ludicrous! And who would lure them? And why? Same-sex attraction does, however, have one thing in common with diabetes: it is not a choice, and it is not anyone’s fault.

janetfernandez: pretty much exactly what I mean by “fear and lies”. I can only take comfort in the fact that the tide is turning, and that more and more people are not falling for that garbage.

Janet and Jones: Seen it first hand.  Can’t believe you are so unaware of the manipulation and emotional battering all around you.  Denial doesn’t make it less real.  God bless.

So what do you call a situation in which a man spends months dating a “woman” and falls in love with her than come to find out “she” is really a he.  Happens on both sides.  I just don’t understand the “I’m gay” yet I dress up like a woman and try to attract heterosexual men.  Or they start acting like women; does that mean there is a hormone issue?

So if diabetes is not a choice and homosexuality is not a choice does that mean it’s a disease that needs to be cured?  Is it a biological brain defect? 

This isn’t the only Christian App on I-tunes, so I don’t understand why this blog is titled “Apple Finds Christianity Offensive”, if they did they would remove EVERY Christian App.

Ceecee are you talking about cross-dressers or someone who has had a sex change operation?  Either way I would call it deceit and messed up, totally lacking in a good moral compass to lead someone on holding on to a secret like that.  For a minute group of homosexuals there may be a chemical or hormonal or other medical issue.  For most it is psychological. Who said homosexuality is not a choice?  Traumas enter everyone’s lives.  Our values and our support systems and our environment and our basic self knowledge and self esteem among other factors determine how we handle them. Keeping God in our nation’s and children’s lives will help them handle it better because they know they are loved and not alone among other reasons.  I have seen young children made to doubt they are loved or made to question their feelings about the opposite sex and steered toward hostility or fear rather than love.  They are defenseless and don’t even understand where this is leading.  It’s moral decadence or incredible ignorance on the part of the perpatrator and a question of whose looking out for the child and how strong the child’s self-esteem and self-confidence is that determines what happens in these scenarios. But definitely psychological damage happens if parents aren’t vigilant and even sometimes when they are.  The blog is titled “Apple Finds Christianity Offensive” I think because it is a teaser to draw in readers and because it is the Judeo-Christian understanding of marriage our country has always held that is under attack.  Imagine going to India or Saudi Arabia and trying to undermine their society’s definition of marriage.  I can’t imagine it would go over well at all.

My dear sweet ceecee, if you recall I said diabetes and homosexuality have ONE thing in common, that neither is a choice. I do not think homosexuality needs to be cured, but I do wish there were a cure for bigotry and arrogance.

Pam, you are equating child predators with homosexuality? Really? And claiming that being molested actually makes a person gay? Wow, we sure would have a lot more gay people in the world. You should move to India where you would be thrilled with their definition of marriage. Let me know how you like their definition of freedom, civil rights, women’s rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and all the social services available to the poor.

Let’s get all Catholics and other Christians to send a nice message to Apple Inc by boycotting their products to show them that they offend *us* - hit ‘em where they live.  Ironic that the fall of mankind was linked to the apple…

Janet, No, that is not what I am saying. By far, most children and adults are lured into the lifestyle. For instance, the child of a devout family who is targeted because of his parents belief.  Or the young man who has a troubled family situation and instead of helping the child choose love and heal the family, the young man’s anger toward his mother or women is reinforced and he blames women for his problems and doesn’t relate to them in a healthy way, or the young women who were dating and hoping to marry and were rejected and started to doubt if they would find love or if there was something wrong with them or started to hate men for how they were treated and instead of finding healthy support found groups that used those problems to bring them into the homosexual community.  Or the Ann Heche’s of the world who were married and tried homosexuality and ran from it.  You talk tough but you don’t talk the truth.  And I am aware of the atrocities in India and other nations. That wasn’t the point.  We are Americans.  One nation under God.  Those who would destroy that are not on the side of the nation it would seem.  They want a different nation.

Pam: A serious question: How many gay people do you know? How old are they? How long have you known them? Are they in long-term relationships?

Jones, God has put this issue in my life for most of my life.  I am a tall, athletic woman who played sports throughout school and became a tennis teacher, a wife and a mother and was blessed with a conversion experience. In all these roles sexual sin (not just homosexual sin) has shown me how dear true holiness is to God and why He loves it so much. He has shown me many aspects to this and why it is most definetly sinful.  I have seen people in the process of being what I call “groomed”, people who have fallen into the sin and people who are in the sin.  Some have had long term relationships. Sexual sins get in the way of a proper relationship between people and between us and God.  We no longer see brothers and sisters or souls or relate from the perspective of children of God called to a greater love and holiness. Spouses relate in a different way. Women and men are categorized and stereotyped, love is confused with feeling and passion, relationships are disposable, peer influence replaces God’s influence.  So many aspects to this.  In the work place relations are changed for the worse.

I grew up with a lesbian sister who came out in 1979, so I have known many many gay people, and not one of them was ‘groomed’. Of course some were molested or had other horrible experiences as children. Isn’t that true of straight people as well? If a crappy childhood makes people gay, then gays would sure be the majority. I hope you people who ostracize gays don’t turn around and hang out with people who are divorced and remarried. Jesus said that was adultery. Or are there degrees of mortal sin? Is it somehow not as sinful to you if they are straight? Oh I know you’ll deny it, but I know that you do not exclude these people from your life, as you do gay couples. You have them over for dinner, you go to their house, they might even be leading the Bible Study group at your church!

janetfernandez, some people certainly are “groomed” to put down the opposite sex, to see themselves as different, to doubt and lose hope, set up for failure intentionally with members of the opposite sex, demeaned to the point they are grateful to be accepted by someone, fattened to be unattractive, seduced or coerced etc., etc.  Everyone does have difficult experiences in life and everyone is unique, coming at those experiences from a different perspective but some have better support and love to watch over and protect them and some fall into it despite all efforts to make them aware what is going on.  My daughter was being attacked because I am a devout Catholic and know this is sin.  I had to be very open and take alot of anger from her because I pointed out what was happening and how people were trying to undermine her and undermine our relationship.  She, on her own, would never have recognized what was happening.  And by the way, with the loosening morals in our country, the number of homsexuals is increasing. I am sorry your sister has chosen the homosexual lifestyle and I am glad you love her so much.  God works in his own time and nothing is impossible to him.  Catholics and Christians who speak the truth about God’s love and sin don’t reject homosexual couples, they are rejected by them because if the topic came up, the truth would be stated.

And you better believe, the topic would come up. Tell me, does the topic of adultery ever come up with your divorced and remarried friends? Or how about your fat friends, do you confront them about gluttony? You know, that’s a pretty serious sin according to Philippians 3:17-20. Wow, did he say gluttons are enemies of the cross of Christ? He sure did. Does that topic ever come up among your friends? It seems like sins that are COMMON among the established Christian community, sins like divorce, remarriage, gluttony, gossip, envy, slander, avarice, pride, all of which actually HARM other people, are overlooked, because if your pastor talked about these things he would have no congregation

@janetfernandez—actually, yes, the subjects about which you inquire are topics discussed and preached about by our pastor.  We still have a devout congregation, because we recognize that we are all sinners, in need of continuous guidance and correction, support and encouragement to live the lives of goodness God intends for us.  Certainly, there are those who pout and posture and throw out “what if"s and “do you"s, and we pray for everyone that they will mature into the people God wants them to be, not the selfish, egocentric children they might prefer to remain as they grasp for what they want because it makes them feel good, and because following God’s will is just too hard.  Amen.

janetfernandez and everyone, Merry Christmas!  He is born,the Savior of the World! And He is with us to this day, truly present in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity! And in the Confessional, standing there with every priest listening and reading our heart and forgiving our sin! Let’s run to Him!  Let’s let nothing keep us from Him!  Janet you ask if the question of other sins is ever discussed.  Yes it is.  When you find out a friend is separated or divorcing or having an affair or see they are very overweight those subjects come up between friends.  You hear what they have to say, you listen and hopefully encourage them in a direction that is toward Christ. If they won’t hear it, you pray for them. Alot. Do you see that your sister’s situation has made you question Church teaching?  Recognizing that something has happened to turn your sister to this lifestyle isn’t condemning her. Loving your faith despite her decision isn’t disloyal or hurting her.  It is helping her see she has changed and making her look at the consequences of her choice to see if it keeps her close to God.  Realizing you love God helps her stay closer to Him or walk away like the prodigal son. But like the prodigal son’s father your prayers and love will have an effect and at the right time she will turn back.  Losing your faith over her actions shows the fruit of the action aren’t good. Love her with all your heart every time you see her.  And love God with all your heart mind soul and strength and trust Him to bring you both to Him in His time. That’s God’s way.

Do you realize there are several marriage laws the Church simply ignores (laws concerning the impediment of affinity), or always gives a dispensation for (laws concerning consanguinity, or marriage with a non-Christian)or has created a sweet little loophole for, called an annulment (laws concerning indissolubility, divorce/remarriage)And yet if a man is impotent, he cannot be married in the Church. If you doubt what I’m saying here, google the Code of Canon Law. Why are some laws ignored, some dispensed of, some skirted with loopholes, and others vigorously enforced? Read the marriage laws in the Canon. And it’s ok to have questions. Even St. Thomas Aquinas said, a million questions do not equal one doubt. And what are the rules for a child born with ambiguous genitalia? These children used to be left to die of exposure because they didn’t fit the “schema”. Maybe the schema is a bit off?

It’s ok to have questions as long as you are truly looking for the answers and aren’t trying to remake the faith to fit your circumstances.  The Church has never waivered on homosexual relations. You mention exceptions in the cannon law that you don’t think are followed and generalize about how often the laws aren’t followed.  And you don’t really quote correctly. Who says they are ignored.  More likely they are dealt with and excepted and those dealing with the issue will answer to God for HOW they answer.  The inability to have children is grounds for an annulment but it doesn’t mean the infertile can’t be married in the Catholic church. What I see is you looking at particular situations and judging.  Most people believe the Church especially in the United States has granted annulments when it shouldn’t have, but none of us know all the details that were before the Church.  These are very private human and spiritual matters and much more complicated than the superficial opinions- based -on -appearances that many people are quick to make.  They are certainly not a basis for an argument that the faith should allow MORE sin and error! Again, those who are making the decisions will answer to God.  Jesus was clear about marriage and divorce and it was our HARDNESS of HEART that lead to Moses permitting divorce.  That shouldn’t lead us to say, “Well, I have hardness of heart on this issue, so make another exception!”  That’s not loving Christ. That isn’t carrying the cross.  That isn’t dying to ourselves.  That isn’t the faith Christ founded.

As to children with ambiguous genitalia, in our country parents and the medical profession consult in these cases and the child is given the medical care they choose to become the sex the parents choose, but I think you know that. In some nations, they do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ regarding alot of things. God bless

Wow you are amazing, you read my mind, I don’t really want answers! I just want to make the Church fit my selfish desires! I hope you can also recognize sarcasm, my friend. Problem: I’m a convert and about as hard-core as it gets. You’re certainly skilled at completely missing the point. Regarding annulments: The Catholic Church in America has annulled more marriages in the last 30 years than did the entire Church all over the world in its first 1,980 years. No one who is honest needs to see all the “details” to understand that the Church has simply refused to hold the line on divorce and remarriage. God has always recognized and sympathized with human weakness, especially in the area of sexuality. Regarding impotence, you really should study the meaning of the word. It’s not the same as infertility. Infertility is not an impediment to marriage, nor is it grounds for annulment, unless one partner was aware of their infertility and failed to reveal it to the other partner. Impotence—sorry I have to be so blunt—is the inability to have intercourse. For example, because of erectile dysfunction. Or if the man’s genitals were crushed in an accident or in war, etc, he cannot get married in the Church. And please, I beg you, don’t tell me I’m misquoting the Canon, when it is painfully obvious that you did not even look at it, cannot spell it, and apparently never heard of it before today. And yes I do know that parents and doctors choose the sex of babies born with ambiguous genitalia, usually opting for female. That was not the question. What if the parents choose female, and the child is later attracted to females?

Thanks for revealing that you are a convert.  That explains all the picking apart. Sounds like you’re still seeking. Your last response is uncalled for. Sorry, but you are the one missing the point.  Who accused you of anything? I was speaking in general and not to you specifically saying that Why one is questionning, matters. And as a convert, I would hope you would be less combative. Some things have to be taken on FAITH. God was always sympathetic that we fell, but He always called it SIN.  David fell in marrying the wife of Uriah and had to choose between three punishments, all of them horrible and all the people of Israel suffered for his personal sin. Sodom and Gemmorha fell and we know how that ended. The woman caught in adultery was told, “Go and SIN no more!” God is merciful but His truth remains CONSTANT. You are right that I didn’t go look up the Cannons and didn’t catch the impotence line. But that just affirms Church teaching on marriage! If the union is not open to the possibility of life as in a homosexual union or in a man incapable of an erection, it is not a “marriage” as God intended. And as to the annulments of the last thirty years, I will refer you to the dream of Pope Leo XIII.  Because of the horror he felt after this vision, Pope LeoXIII composed the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel.  The vision was of a conversation between Satan and God in which Satan said he could destroy the Church if he was given one hundred years.  He asked for the twentieth century and God said He would give Satan those one hundred years.  In the twentieth century we had many major attacks on morality including two world wars and the Holocaust, the industrial revolution with its attacks on human dignity and money over man, the sexual revolution and the drug culture, aids and homosexual unions, divorces, affairs, pornography, increased materialism etc.,etc.  Satan’s hundred years are over. The Lord is calling us all back. What the Church allowed then was renounced by JPII and by Benedict.  The Church is demanding more from her followers in terms of adhering to authentic teaching, but it is a process.  At Fatima the Blessed Mother promised the triumph of her Immaculate Heart. I believe we are at the beginning of that triumph over years of error and sometimes even apostasy.  So let’s pray and pray some more.  Don’t go looking for reasons to hold on to sin. Looking through Canon Law to justify sin or to condemn past actions is dragging you down.  God’s truth is homosexual relations are sinful. Paul states it clearly. If you are going to argue with St. Paul,then I can’t help you. You don’t really have faith yet. We love our sisters and brothers who commit this sin, but we can’t deny the action’s sinful nature.  We can keep calling our brothers and sisters to God and His healing power or to sacrificial love and we can keep supporting and loving them and praying for them. It doesn’t make them evil. It makes them lost. Perhaps you were converted to bring her to Christ. But we don’t change God. God changes us.  God bless. And happy feast of the Holy Family.

As to the child who has an operation, they are given hormone treatments, but if there are issues the family should consult their Bishop or priest.

I had to learn to pick things apart in order to become Catholic. I had no Catholic friends, and the Protestant Christians in my life were very anti-Catholic (as I had been myself, which of course was why they were my friends) I lived across the street from the Seminary in Cincinnati and spent many hours there studying Church fathers, and many more hours watching EWTN when there was Father John Bertollucci and Father Ken Roberts (this was in the 80s) In the end I found it worked best to present my friends with the arguments for apostolic succession (going at it from a historical perspective), and the Real Presence (because there’s so much Scripture to back that up). Saying “The Holy Spirit called me to be Catholic.”, while absolutely true, did not go very far in the way of convincing my friends that I was doing the right thing. I guess I learned then that if I am convinced of something that most people disagree with, I had better do my homework and be able to present good reasons for what I believe. I do get carried away with the sarcasm, and I apologize to you for that. I also get frustrated when a person accuses me of not really caring what the Church teaches. Believe me when I say, if that were the case, I would just say it straight out, and stop going to Mass and saying the Rosary, etc. And it is very confusing to be told when I study the Canon, and the Catechism, and the Scripture, that I should stop quoting these things, and just accept what the Church says, when the people saying this to me are not reading what the Church says. I began about two years ago to have questions about this issue, and when I have questions, I hit the books. As I said that is how I became Catholic, and at the time that was NOT the answer I was hoping to find. That was the answer that lost me all my friends and showed me how wrong I had been. So I guess I’ll make you a deal: I won’t accuse you of not wanting to leave your comfort zone, and I will respect the fact that your beliefs are sincere. Perhaps you can give me the same benefit of the doubt

Absolutely! Did you know about the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults? Every parish should have a class that runs about a year and is just for answering questions and teaching the faith. But be careful.  There are some who are more political than Catholic. And grab someone from that seminary for a spiritual director! You pray for me and I’ll pray for you.  Where two or more are gathered….

I don’t live near the seminary anymore, that was 1984. I went through RCIA that year as well

Some great saints only read the Bible or relied on the Our Father and Hail Mary or the rosary.  We’ll never know all 2000 years of the Church’s tradition, but we CAN have a relationship with Jesus Christ.  The Code of Canon Law is an administrative tool, but it’s not Christianity.  Christ is Christianity.  Studying scripture and the Catechism is great!  People who don’t want them quoted are hiding from the Truth whether they realize it or not. You have been in the Church long enough to see that some priests are blessed with a special holiness.  Anyone as serious as you are about their faith should find a good spiritual director like that.  NOT one who is trying to please the crowd.  You may ask and not succeed, then just keep studying (especially the Bible and lives of the great Saints of the Church) and praying.  The Holy Spirit will lead you, Jesus told us.  He will remind us of everything Jesus taught. It’s lonely out there, I know.  But we should never feel alone.  We have the greatest friends in the Lord and Blessed Mother and all the saints!  I hope you talk to them in your prayer.  God bless.

Wait. One underlying point: By Apple removing such an application that touts to be civil in language, all this says is that the First Amendment right to free speech and free expression is not safe and where will it end? Are the Bible apps and other apps also at risk? And why? For one group that is NOT the majority? How about considering that EVERY group is protected by the First Amendment and the only reason that should prompt any removal of any application or any document or any comment or any statement is when said item clearly invokes violence or hysteria. Like yelling fire in a theater when there is no fire. Unless these criteria exist, Apple is in the wrong by removing such application. It is ridiculous when the minority starts to cause infringement of First Amendment rights of the majority. No offense. But it’s the reality of the situation.

SS - Apple is not the government, and they do not have to allow freedom of speech. They can remove any app for any reason, or for no reason. Just like you can make someone leave your home or your property if you don’t like what they are saying or doing, or you just don’t like them. What that does for their PR is a whole different matter, but that is their decision. And for the record, I totally disagree with their decision. But if you want to legally force a private company to accept all apps, then YOU are violating THEIR freedom of speech.

janetfernandez That’s not quite true.  They can’t discriminate. If it can be proved that they are, then they are liable

That’s a dangerous premise, my friend. By that principle your church or ministry will have to hire practicing homosexuals. I’m sure you don’t want that

You are oversimplifying laws that are already in place. That wouldn’t make sense would it?  Neither would discriminating against religious apps because they recognize homosexuality as sin.

No it would not make sense. But when a practicing homosexual, who has graduated from seminary and is otherwise completely qualified, applies for the position of youth minister in your church, and then sues your church for discrimination when a less-qualified, straight person is hired instead, you will have yourself to thank. Personally I would not give a flying crap what his/her orientation is, but many churches would, and I do not believe they should be forced by any law, to hire a person who does not represent and/or promote what they teach. As I said, that is a very dangerous road. But what with everyone, including Christians, running around whining ‘freedom of speech!’ and ‘discrimination!’, that is where we are headed

Janetfernandez, Your logic fails me. The position calls for holiness. The person is so attached to the flesh as to be involved in sexual acts strictly forbidden by 2000 years of Church teaching.  The needs of the flesh have been chosen over the needs of the spirit.  In what way can this person be “otherwise qualified?”  They are totally unqualified in every way which is further demonstrated by them filing a lawsuit, using man and legal systems to solve their spiritual dilemmas!

What is truly amusing here is that I am AGREEING with you - to a degree - and you’re still yelling at me. The government does not care about the flesh and the spirit etc etc, and since we were actually discussing it from a legal perspective (I thought), I was simply pointing out that you cannot force a private company to allow speech it does not agree with, and not expect Christian organizations to be likewise forced.

No, what is really amusing is that you consider that response, “yelling”! lol!  We are discussing from a legal and a Christian perspective since the one suing is supposedly Christian.  But you still don’t seem to accept that legitimate religions are not treated like every other business.  Are you hoping to change that? Because that will be one heck of a cosmic battle.  We better all be ready for the second coming when that happens.

I don’t know how many times I have to say it, if you look at all the posts here, no I most adamantly DO NOT want anyone to be forced by law to hire anyone that does not represent their organization’s message or goals. That is exactly why I’m saying to stop whining about discrimination, because it will come back to bite you in the butt. There have already been Catholic schools sued for firing homosexual teachers, pregnant-out-of-wedlock teachers, etc. Those schools should have the right to do that. I may not agree with their decisions/practices/philosophy, and I would pull my kids from those schools and make it very clear why, but they certainly have the right to make those decisions, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. Yes I’m yelling because I am so tired of repeating this over and over again. (Caps and exclamation points indicate yelling to me) And here is this AGAIN: I do NOT agree with Apple’s decision in this matter.

One more point: You need to make a decision about the root of sexual orientation. You say people are led into a homosexual lifestyle (though you still have not explained who would lead them, or why, or how)But on the other hand, you say homosexuals are attached to the flesh, and giving in to the needs of the flesh, which certainly sounds as though their orientation is inborn.

OK one more point—I would have thought that if sin would bring on the Second Coming, 40 years of slaughtering innocent children in the womb would do it. You really think a man loving a man, or a woman loving a woman, is more infuriating to God, than murdering unborn babies?

As a gay person, I think it is disgusting and immoral to try and protect laws marginalising gay people, and then complain that you are being marginalised yourselves when not everyone agrees with you. It is not a question of free speech, it is a question of apple deciding what to publish, in such a way that is reflective of its views. I can also clarify that I have always been gay, which seems to be supportive of the inborn theory. I agree with Janet on this one, as it seems to me, to be a case whereby some people feel that a lack of universal support amounts to discrimination. You complain that Catholicism is being marginalised? Gay people have been marginalised for much longer. We know how you feel. Everyone has a right to their views, but the role of government is to ensure that equal rights are attributed to all groups.

Jake, As a gay person, I pray you come to know Jesus Christ. Then you will find a God to whom nothing is impossible.  At the least,your love for Him will overcome your need for sex.  The fact that you are attracted to the same sex is a natural disorder. You were made to lave the opposite sex.  It is a moral disorder, a natural disorder and a spiritual disorder.  Discriminating against that is a GOOD thing.  There are lots of things that are not good for us that we discriminate against. It doesn’t mean people with the disorder should be disliked or hated, but they should not be allowed to spread the disorder.  You say you were homosexual from birth.  That is arguable.  It is possible that some are born with genetic abnormalities and some are definitely born with ambiguous genitalia, but most are stereotyped in homosexuality or groomed into it or traumatized into it.  It is like saying a diabetic is discriminated against because they can’t eat whatever they want.  It is ridiculous.  It is like we are living the fairy tale the Emperor’s New Clothes.  If the lie is told convincingly enough we are all supposed to go along with it.  You are in a difficult state right now.  You don’t have to remain that way.  Nothing is impossible with God and His Grace can heal you many ways.  So sorry you are not open to it and so sorry Apple is using its clout for misguided compassion.

JanetFernandes: When a person chooses the flesh over the spirit it isn’t the same as saying they were born homosexual.  Choosing the flesh can be putting sexual desire above spiritual desire. It can be putting material goods above spiritual goods. It means we are putting the world and ourselves before God.  That most people are “made” homosexual is a completely different thing.  At some point they do choose the flesh, homosexual relations, over God, but it isn’t a conscious choice at first.  I have given numerous examples but I will give you another.  A younger sibling in a family is insecure because big brother or sis is a great kid and young sib can see that mom and dad love big sib alot. Young sib is insecure.  Mom and Dad do treat young sib differently because young sib is not like big sib and responds better to some forms of parenting than others. Nasty relative or ignorant teacher or jealous friend or all of above feed the insecurity by making negative comparisons to older sib or raising doubts about parents love or making fun of younger sibs quirks.  Love is lacking.  Younger sib starts to feel like an outsider. Younger sib may or may not have had a faith upbringing, but he has not worked his utmost at getting close to God because he is after all, a kid and the world is so much more real to him. Big mouth jerk labels young sib a “fag” or wus or whatever.  Young sib starts to doubt himself and his manhood.  Nasty girl thinks its funny to jerk his chain and invites him to a dance and dumps him the day before. Nasty girl thinks its a big joke and tells everyone how stupid he was to think she would go with HIM to a dance and on and on.  Young sib is approached by a homosexual who sees the vulnerability and “befriends” him and treats him like he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread while putting down parental authority, the opposite sex and anyone who finds homosexuality offensive. Young sib thinks, “This must be what I am. This is the kind of person that treats me right.”  nd falls for the line of “logic” hook, line and sinker. Young sib becomes convinced he is homosexual and believes he must have been all along because nothing ever worked out in life til he became homosexual.  He was never homosexual. He was insecure and teased and neglected and harassed and seduced, but he was always a heterosexual boy that never received the love in this world Jesus Christ demands we all give to every soul.

If you disagree with what Apple did, then LET’S BOYCOTT APPLE!! Don’t support them by buying their products.  I remember reading a story about a company, I think it was Target and if I’m wrong I appoligise. But, anyway this company donated some money to an organization that the gay people disagreed with. 

The gay people immediately called for a boycott, as they always do if you disagree with them, against this store.  Let’s turn the table on them and boycott someone supportive of them.  Let’s show Apple and their ilk that the majority actually does rule.  Let;s stop being pushed around by “a handful” as it always is.

You’re signing the wrong petition:

http://www.change.org/petitions/truth-wins-out-stop-with-the-reverse-suppression-from-gays-4

Ask the Uncle if you can you see Jesus’ divinity at a molecular level?  How can a glorified risen body change form on the road to emmaus as Jesus did, if he can change form their is it plausable for him to present himself in another form today in the Eucharist? This risen body could suddenly appear in the upper room yet as doubting thomas found out the glorfied body of jesus had wounds of actual flesh.  I guess its ok to believe in all the foundational miracles in the past for Christians without an explanation but us as Catholics the “eucharsist” is a present day miracle that simply saying “we dont understand its a Miracle” will never suffice to many people because it demands what Christ wants most of us. True Faith like a Child, not Faith with Facts. A glorified body sounds pretty awesome!! I cant wait to get mine.

Culture war? How about the war of Gog and magog? Satan is loosed and he has gathered his godless army from the four corners of the earth and he is daily surrounding the Holy City. The magnitude of wickedness which we see every day is getting worse exponentially because Satan is the direct cause of it. Believers of every sect of Christianity are being persecuted worldwide. Filth has been let go planet-wide, from homosexuality to human trafficking to child porn. The Church as a whole (Catholic and Protestant alike has become a land of unwalled villages, allowing every theological twist to defile it. The godless demand that we stop declaring the truth, and we knuckle under like obedient sheep. It’s time WE declare that we will brook no more of their godlessness in our society.

I shall never purchase another Apple product whilst it maintains an anti Christian stance. And I would stress to all Christians to do the same ... desist from making Apple any more richer at the expense of the Truth. I am appalled at the arrogance of the Company.

I can’t believe how many proponents of this app are calling apple “intolerant”. Pot calling the Kettle black, if you ask me. I say “Live and let live.” Let gay and lesbian couples get married, and get the !@#$% over it. Go about your life, and stop worrying about others’.

Tony actions have consequences.  Freedom of speech is already affected and freedom of religion.  And who is REALLY being decisive?  For two thousand years homosexual relationships were recognized by everyone as taboo.  Apple has no problem keeping hateful gay apps.  You are being dishonest.

Devisive not decisive. Sorry