Say, just out of curiosity, what do you think of Garabandal? I’m kinda half-and-half on it, myself, since it seems to have decent evidence in its favor (and the kids + the apparition were obedient to the local clergyman, IIRC) but it’s got plenty of points against it, including some sketchy prophecies and (again, IIRC) the visionaries later disagreeing about certain points. Thoughts?

I take it that, when you say that Medjugorje is a fraud, you suggest the following: That the visionaries - all six of them - are lying through their teeth. That the scientific studies conducted on them while in the state of ecstasy are bogus.

I take it that you are in no measure impressed by the fact that none of them have, in thirty years, broken ranks and blown the whistle, unable to sustain what they know to be a lie. Nor by the fact that neither their spouses nor any of their children have noticed that something about the visionaries isn’t right.

Great post.  I honestly wonder/worry about what would happen if Rome denounced Medj.  A fear of mine is that the visionaries have enough followers that they could step up their own counter-church.  Wouldn’t that be a trap by Satan?

I take it that, when you say that Medjugorje is a fraud, you suggest the following: That the visionaries - all six of them - are lying through their teeth.

Yes.

That the scientific studies conducted on them while in the state of ecstasy are bogus.

Don’t know about “bogus” if you mean “dishonest”.  I’m willing to settle for “flawed”.

I take it that you are in no measure impressed by the fact that none of them have, in thirty years, broken ranks and blown the whistle, unable to sustain what they know to be a lie.

Yes. What reason have they to break ranks?  They are all doing quite well from the whole sham.  When they endure anything even remotely approaching Paul’s self-description:

“with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24* Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25* Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; 26* on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; 27* in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure upon me of my anxiety for all the churches.”

—rather than a cushy $800,000 house in the States paid off in a single year from fat profits off their “vision” I will take their claims seriously.

Rome is going to ratify the finding of the local ordinaries in this matter.  There’s no There there.

My mother, Lord rest her,was a member of the Third Order of St.Francis and a great ‘fan’ of Medjugorje. She cheerfully waved objections away with assertions of the great prayerful atmosphere to be experienced there. She went back many times, and loved it. However, I am a sceptic. I’ve never been deployed closer to Medjugorje than Belgrade; but, I do know something of the politics from briefings, from my own independent reading, and, but especially, from colleagues whose duties brought them to that general area when last the Serbs and Croats were at each others’ throats - about 20 years ago. One of my younger colleagues opined “The Croats won the Public Relations battle that the Serbs did not even contest” and another, older guy, on leaving the area, summed up his experience thus “Lofty, there are no ‘good guys’there!”. (BTW:During an earlier Serbo-Croatian conflict, during WWII, the Papal Nuncio - Montini - had to get on to the Vatican to get on to Mussolini to get on to Hitler to get the Croats to stop forcibly converting Serbs to Catholicism. Many, many, Croatian priests had refused to cooperate in the forced baptism of Serbs - and were accordingly slaughtered! The Vatican knows all about this, and about the other dreadful happenings in Croatia). I do not want to be racist and should explain that it was the Ustase - Croatian Fascists - and not the entire race of Croats who perpetrated the atrocities. But ... with a little help from their friends in and around Medjugorje, and elsewhere. I never told my mother that those friends included too many of her fellow Franciscans)

I think Medjugorje is a fraud too.  But from Lofty’s comments above, it seems to me that the Croats didn’t really win the public relations battle…

WELL SAID, MARK! Glad someone finally did.
We had one of the “visionaries” come to our area (to a Protestant church) a few months back. The gimmick? He wanted to have an audience while the Virgin Mary “visited him at her customary hour” so he could tell people what she said. Our time zone is certainly NOT Eastern Europeean… so I’m not sure how he worked that one out and conveniently booked a speaking gig around it. I read it and balked—just SMACKS of PT Barnum hucksterism.

The visionaries at Fatima and Lourdes were PERSECUTED for their claims and they never took a dime for what they proclaimed as truth. Two died young, the other two became preofessed religious—St Bernadette died in intense suffering not long after taking her vows. Only one lived into old age.

What evidence? Go to Medjugorje yourself and look at the true evidence. I have never been, but our Pastor has been there many times and he is not one to be taken and is very careful before he does anything. I guess that you believe that Our Blessed Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict must be wrong; both of whom are very Holy. How many of Our Ladies messages have you even bothered to read? None, I bet, which is sad just for the fact that she has never, ever said anything that goes against the Bible or the Church’s teachings. But for someone that wants to change the Bible and only believe what you want and how you want; this is not surprising and is why I try to avoid your nonsense.  Get the facts, not the fiction and ask your Mother to guide you out of your blindness and into the light. There is so much for you to learn.  +JMJ+

MP: “I take it that, when you say that Medjugorje is a fraud, you suggest the following: That the visionaries - all six of them - are lying through their teeth.”

MS: “Yes.”

MP: “That the scientific studies conducted on them while in the state of ecstasy are bogus.”

MS: “Don’t know about “bogus” if you mean “dishonest”.  I’m willing to settle for “flawed”.”

(1) Can you support with evidence your contention that one or more of the visionaries is lying?

(2) Can you name any peer review critical of the scientific studies?

If your answer to both of these questions is in the negative, then you may consider yourself accused by me of defamation.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/navigating-medjugorje#ixzz1vDyfkoQs

I take Mark’s attitude on Medj. in studying the “Shroud of Turin”.  The Vatican has said it is an object that can be venerated.  It is mysterious, and the final tests are not in.  I hope it is the linen in the tomb of Christ, but what is the headcover set aside for the shroud?  Would it have been imaged as well?  Would it have interfered with the image on the shroud?  Also (see book “Life at the time of Jesus”) men of Palestine were about 5’0” in height, but of strong build and powerful bodies.  The body in the shroud is about 5’9” tall.  Also, having read of the Roman scourging (as opposed to a much less gruesome Jewish scouring, which St. Paul experienced) I would expect a much more disfigured body (see Is 56- 57).  Also the nails in the wrists:  doesn’t agree with stigmatists’ wounds which show wounds in the pit of the hand, not in the wrist.  St. Gemma Galgani, who, as I remember experienced the fullness of the wounds of Christ, after her Thursday - Friday “Passion” wounds closed, there were white scars.  But when they studied the pit of her hands, there was a depression about the size of several quarters where the nail wounds had closed in her hands.  Could the Romans simply have embedded Christ’s hands to the Cross (no bones broken, just a nail to bone to wood) using nailheads in the fullnest of the finger bones, so that the shroud is wrong and the stigmatists are right?  Note: the stigmatists can be neither right nor wrong; this is forensic evidence - not mysticism.

I already linked the reasons why Medj is bunk in the article.  Since it’s obvious it’s bunk, the “scientific” stuff is flawed.  And I’d be extremely surprised if there are any peer-reviews of the “scientific” studies.  Care to point me to some?  The main peer review I’m aware of is the repeated rejections of the Medj phenom by the local ordinary.  I’ll stick with that.

I recommend Marco Corvaglia’s web site for further info on any scientific studies supposedly conducted on Medjugorje seers…

The late esteemed writer Michael Davies (2004) followed the Medjugorje phenomenon over 21 years. To this day, the church hasn’t found anything supernatural. If there is a commission now, I doubt they will find anything new that will convince them otherwise that Medjugorje is nothing more than a tourist attraction. Any preternatural activity that appears there is a demonic hoax, as Malachi Martin once called it. Devotees should go to Davies’ website: catholictraditionorg and see the extensive documentation concerning the fraudulent claims of Medjugorje. It is not necessary to visit; in fact, it is ill-advised not only because of money wasted on fraud, but evidence from others who have been there and actually lost their true faith, even suffered demonic attacks afterward.

Okay, Michael.  You wanted a serious review of the “science” experiments done at Medj.  Go and read this.  Then feel free to retract that charge of defamation.

“I already linked to the reasons why Medj is bunk in the article.”

Dear Mr. Shea,

As you have authored several books on Mariology, one would hope that you had conducted a balanced study and analysis of Medjugorje yourself - as have other credentialed theologians and Mariologists - Fr. Rene Laurentin, Fr. Michael O’Carroll, Dr. Mark Miravalle - to name a few who have. 

Your reliance upon the Te Deum blog to do the heavy lifting for you is, perhaps an improvement from some of the RadTrad and ghost-hunter sources previously mentioned on your blog - hello to all fans of Michael Davies, EM Jones and Louis Bellanger - however, to any objective reader, the Te Deum catalog on Medjugorje is hardly fair, balanced or reasoned.  Rather is simply a catalog of any negative story, innuendo and spin which has ever been hurled against Medjugorje.  When a story or headline is shown to be false, the author - the ever zealous Diane - simply moves on to the next calumny.  The material assembled there is a mile wide but an inch deep. No information (or commenter) which would shed a positive light on Medjugorje is allowed to coexist with other “reasons”. Nor is there any indication that the compiler of this material has any academic or formal theological trained by which to assess.

Let us be clear, if there were a single negative fact or story of any import against Medjugorje - a smoking gun - Diane has either not found it or it does not bear scrutiny.  The CDF could shut down Medjugorje at ANY TIME - faster than you could say “neocon fascist pig”.  However, for 30 years and counting, Medjugorje has been protected and millions of pilgrims - corporeal or otherwise - have discovered conversion, healing and faith at Medjugorje.

I’ve followed this phenomenon for nearly the full 30 years and I’ve never heard anyone - other than yourself - utter the repulsive words “apostate Rome”.  That is an unsubstantiated calumny upon Medjugorje devotees and I challenge you to prove it.  Show us you have done your own homework and are not using this phenomenon to cynically drive up your own visitors ..

When I was stationed in the diocese of Ft. Worth about a decade ago I went to St. Mary of the Assumption church downtown Ft. Worth to hear confessions prior to one of the visionaries (Ivan) speaking at the church.  We were there approximately 2-3 hours for confessions with a church that was overflowing. Many of the people had been away from the church for a significant amount of time if not a lifetime.  If this is as bogus as you say I would venture to say it is a case of a bad tree bearing good fruit.

  I agree with Mark on this issue as well as Patrick Madrid who also has doubts about this. What troubles me most is that many devotees of this are fanatical about it and place these “visions” instead of the Gospel. Also we are as Catholics NOT obligated to follow or even believe in any vision of Mary. I think it is a fraud and sadly many Charismatics have their whole Faith centered on all kinds of visions, etc. We walk by Faith and NOT by Signs and Wonders. I have a dim view of that whole Movement even though they are zealous and sincere. They need to have a stronger Catholic identity and stop being Protestants in their outlook on the Faith. Pope Paul mad a big mistake allowing them to be formed in the late 1960’s.

JMJ,

“[A]sk your Mother to guide you out of your blindness and into the light”? God brought Mark out of darkness into His marvelous light when Mark was sacramentally illuminated at his Baptism. As long as he continues to profess all that the Catholic Church teaches is revealed by God, I don’t see how he can be accused of blindness, whatever private revelations he does or doesn’t believe.

For what it’s worth, this is coming from someone who has no opinion on Medjugorje.

\\Many, many, Croatian priests had refused to cooperate in the forced baptism of Serbs\\

The vast majority of Serbs are baptized Orthodox. Not even the Pope will baptize someone already baptized.

Seraphic Father, how would you say should we handle a “bad tree”?  Shall we assume it will always yield good fruit?

seems to me, one bad fruit can be anger at fellow Catholics over this issue rather than allowing the Church to rule and accepting their ruling. Whether a Catholic believes it or not, isnt the measure of being Catholic, but obedience to the Church most certainly is. I have no opinion one way or another about the visions, but i certainly grieve at the current lack of unity in His Church these days. Please pray for love to abound thru her Immaculate Heart and the Sacrifice of Christ.

SeraphicFather’s experience isn’t surprising. Part of the history of false apparitions is that they inspire devout acts too. People can be motivated to make conversions and confessions and pray for healings by apparition stories whether true or false. This is why the Church uses “fruits” only as a criterion for excluding an apparition claim.  By themselves, they are not enough to prove a case authentic.

Could Medj be both fraud and true? Could the visionaries have had a real visit from the Blessed Mother all those years ago, and then felt the need for attention, embroidering new apparitions and emanations and sayings on top of the original true event?

I am on the fence.  I have been to Medjugorje and actually saw miracles there (as well as experiencing an almost otherworldly peace), but there are things that trouble me as well.  I think many people on both sides of the question are pretty fanatical and only accept the evidence that supports their point of view.

As far as the length of the apparitions (as one commenter mentioned), that is troubling.  To me, this either means that the apparitions are false or that we are in extremely serious and decisive times.  I lean towards the latter, but actually both statements could be true.

One thing which cannot be debated seriously in my opinion is that Medjugorje has been a great positive for the Church.  It has sparked uncountable conversions, including mine.  I don’t believe that, if the apparitions are condemned, it will cause many to lose their faith.  It certainly wouldn’t affect mine, or drive a wedge between me and Church authority.  Church rulings on apparitions/mystics/etc. are always subject to change, anyway.

If Medjugorje is a fraud it opens up much bigger questions for the Church.  Firstly,  why is it taking the Church over thirty years to issue its ruling on what is,  as you maintain,  such an obvious fraud?

Secondly,  if Card.  Schoenborn,  editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church,  has been duped by such an obvious fraud,  surely it calls into question the catechism itself as he had such a fundamental role in its compilation?

Thirdly,  how is it that such an eminent theologian as Hans Urs Von Balthasar was taken in by a group of teenagers as they were when he gave his positive appraisal of the Medjugorje event.

To say that you are morally certain that Medjugorje is a fraud is quite a significant statement on your part.

Maybe,  just maybe,  the judgement of Card. Schoenborn and Fr.  Von   Balthasar is correct   and you are wrong;  and maybe the cautious approach of Rome in passing judgement points to a less than obvious judgement than the one that you have passed.

Private revelation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_revelation

Fallacies used by fraudulent visionaries and their followers:

1 “If you don’t go to X, you can’t say it’s a fraud” - False criticism

2 “If you do go to X, you’ll find it’s true” - Appeal to experience

3 “X has good fruits, so it must be true” - Appeal to emotion

4 “X is true, otherwise this would happen” - Appeal to consequence

5 “So-and-so liked X, so X is true to me” - Genetic fallacy

Mark C:

How about this smoking gun…the official website of the Diocese of Mostar:

http://cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98

Medjugorje may be the greatest example of the power of Satan to draw the faithful into disobedience, and to upstage the important message of Fatima. Satan’s ultimate victory would be to get the Church to approve it. Don’t put this past him.

Um.  Satan’s ultimate victory was the crucifixion, in comparison with which Medjugorje is small beer indeed.  The universe is not all about events during the lifetime of Baby Boomers.  And, by the way, Satan’s greatest victory didn’t pan out so well for him.  Be not afraid.

Witnessing good fruits is not an appeal to emotion.  Emotions are transitory in nature.  Full-fledged and lasting conversions are an example of fruits, fruits which last.  I have seen them for myself connected to Medjugorje.  I have been to Medjurgore.  Do you know what the best part of Medjugorje is?  The sacraments.  Adoration, confession, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and all the accompanying prayers attached.  Those are all conduits of grace that we can benefit from wherever we may reside.  That’s the whole point.  Mary leads us to Jesus.

The crucifixion was a Pyrrhic victory for Satan, as we learned.  I’m talking about the victory over the Church at present, the onslaught that Pope Leo XIII had premonitions about.

If Medjugorje is a fraud it opens up much bigger questions for the Church. 

No.  It doesn’t.

Firstly,  why is it taking the Church over thirty years to issue its ruling on what is,  as you maintain,  such an obvious fraud?

Because the Church is slow about most everything and typically leaves such matters to the local ordinary.  The local ordinary has repeatedly said there nothing supernatural happening at Medj, but true believers, ginned up by the fraudulent Fr. Vlasic and the “visionaries” have ignored the local ordinary.  So, to really put this to bed, Rome is reviewing (and will, I promise you, ratify) the findings of the local ordinary.  In short, it is the obstinacy of the “visionaries” and the True Believers and their resistance to reality, not the findings of the local ordinaries, that have occasioned Rome’s move.

Secondly,  if Card.  Schoenborn,  editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church,  has been duped by such an obvious fraud,  surely it calls into question the catechism itself as he had such a fundamental role in its compilation?

No it doesn’t.  The catechism is a reiteration of the Church’s ordinary teaching and is the product of a huge number of people.  Cdl. Schoenborn’s private opinion about Medj is his alone.  He was never protected by infallibility in his person.  He’s not the Pope.  if he weren’t wrong about Medj, he’d still be wrong about something, as has been every person who ever wrote a Catechism.  And yet, we still have reliable Catechisms, including this one.

Thirdly,  how is it that such an eminent theologian as Hans Urs Von Balthasar was taken in by a group of teenagers as they were when he gave his positive appraisal of the Medjugorje event.

Beats me.  I don’t know the details of Von B’s views on Medj.  However, he too is not infallible.

To say that you are morally certain that Medjugorje is a fraud is quite a significant statement on your part.

Not really.  It’s an informed opinion.

Maybe,  just maybe,  the judgement of Card. Schoenborn and Fr.  Von   Balthasar is correct   and you are wrong;

I’ve already granted that.

Nonetheless, I’m not wrong. :)

and maybe the cautious approach of Rome in passing judgement points to a less than obvious judgement than the one that you have passed.

Nah.  It points to the fact that Rome means to ratify, once and for all, the finding of the local ordinary.

Two years ago I took a day excursion to Mostar while on a singles tour group of Croatia’s famed Dalmatian coast. There were road signs for Medjugorje but it was just another town name to me. I had already visited a few of the local catholic churches so those were enough for me. 

For those who aren’t as familiar, secular authorities at the time weren’t happy with what happened either. The central government closed the town proper off to outsiders and the parish priest was jailed for “anti-state activities” for 3 1/2 years.  After 3 years of this and a need for money, the town was reopened.

If I ever go back to the Balkan region, I’m sure I’ll find plenty else to discover and enjoy the local wine! Plus you shouldn’t have a problem finding a catholic church—they’re equally as beautiful and impressive in their own right.

Mark - just to clarify, you wrote:
“I have never been to Medj.  Nor have I been to Fatima or Lourdes.  I believe these latter private revelatons because I agree with the Church that the evidence for them is impressive.  I disbelieve the claims for Medj for similar reasons: the evidence strongly suggests “fraud”.  I don’t believe you have to visit a place to make an informed judgment.”

I would hope (and expect) that your reason for believing in Fatima or Lourdes would be because you accept the authority of the Church, not because you agree with her assessment of the evidence. If Holy Mother Church determines that Medj. is authentic, you may still be unconvinced by the evidence, but accept the teaching of the Church - because that’s what submission means. (And thanks be to God that we don’t each have to re-sift the evidence for everything from the Incarnation forward before we can believe it.) And, as you rightly point out, accepting the determination of the Church that a private revelation does not compel anyone except the visionary to participate in the devotion around it, but accepting the determination of the Church that a private revelation is false does compel the faithful to NOT participate in it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

I don’t think you fully understand what I’m saying about the ramifications for the Catechism if indeed Cardinal Schoenborn is wrong on Medjugorje.

If Medjugorje is quite manifestly a fraud,  as you maintain,  then surely the judgement of Schoenborn is serious in question.

And if the messages of Medjugorje are so obviously in conflict with the teaching of the Church,  as other Medj.  detractors claim,  then surely the theological literacy of Card.  Schoenborn is seriously in doubt.

Both or either of these scenarios should give serious concern as he is the editor of the catechism.

Also,  since Medjugorje has continued to grow and grow beyond any comparison with other alleged Marian apparition sites,  the failure of the authorities in the Vatican to close it down definitively before now to protect the faithful would point to a serious error of judgement.

Are you sure the errors and fraudulency of Medjugorje is as manifest as you claim with moral certainty.

By the way,  I’m an Irish man and we are never wrong.  And I say that with moral certainty!!! 

I would also hasten to point out that the Holy Spirit can certainly work in the hearts of people who turn to the Lord and Our Lady as a result of what they have been told/experienced at Medjugorge. “Never was it known that anyone who fled to [her] protection, implored [her] help, and sought [her] intercession was left unaided,” and “it is not His will that anyone should perish.” He used the pagan Cyrus to get the faithful remnant back to Israel and the Temple rebuilt. That didn’t make Cyrus a prophet.

I also think its a fraud.  Why?  For cne thing, I can’t see the “visionaries” getting messages almost every day. For another, none have embraced a life as a priest or nun.  Bernadette and Lucia in particular, chose to remain out of the spotlight.  As far as I know Lucia only reluctantly visited Fatima at the urge of the Pope.  St. Bernadette didn’t want to go back there either because of the tourist trade defaming the site, and she also wanted to remain cloistered although I understand she suffered a lot from her fellow nun’s disbelief and envy,

None of these seers as far as I know are going through anything like this.  And Garbandal has not be approved by the Church as far as visions are concerned.  The messages so far aren’t controversial though, and in charity maybe the seers do believe they are getting messages from Mary, but the angel of darkness Lucifer can also masquerade as Mary and delights in sowing discordance and disagreement in the Church. Your column is right on Mark, although I will confess I tend to be a skeptical person.  I do believe in Lourdes and Fatima though.
t

Ruairi,

Mark clearly explained how it’s possible for Card. Schoenborn to be right sometimes and wrong other times, if that be the case. This doesn’t make the things he’s right about wrong, nor does it make the things he’s wrong about right. Plus, even though Card. Schoenborn was the editor of the Catechism, ultimately the Editio Typica was ratified by then Card. Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II. Card. Ratzinger being the head of the CDF gave final approval to the text, making changes in doing so. The first edited edition of the Catechism was ‘corrected’ in many ways before the editio typica was promulgated. So no, Medj has NO bearing on the reliability of the Catechism.
As far as your other claims, Mark answered them as well. The Church moves slowly. End of story. It’s taken years for the Church to reign in the LC, LCWR, etc. The Church is does not have a theological 911 line, waiting for the faithful to call and have the heresy police dispatched at once. It doesn’t work that way. Things take time. PLUS, as I understand it, the Vatican does not rule on visions/apparitions until they are finished. And since the visionaries conveniently have daily visions, the Church will not rule definitively in them. It’s all very convenient.
But in one sense the Church HAS ruled on Medj. In the sense that the local bishops, the ordinaries of the region, have asked Catholics NOT TO LEAD PILGRIMAGES THERE. Did you need an infallible decree from the Holy Father himself before you listen to a hierarchical authority? Does it have to come from the highest source? And if/when it does, will you believe it? Or will you continue to claim the visionaries are victims of persecution? The bishops have asked you not to got there, not to encourage others to do so. This is the “fruit” of Medj, disobedience, and self-righteousness.

“Already, I see Medj devotees murmuring paranoid conspiracy theories being put forward by various True Believers in order to “explain” how “apostate Rome” is now the Seat of Antichrist”

Mr. Shea,

You crow quite boldly here; please demonstrate that this is more than careless slander and substantiate this claim.  Medjugorje devotees number in the millions; where is your proof that a significant number of them are planning schism in the event of a disfavorable outcome? Sounds like a paranoid fantasy of one of your rabid chroniclers.

Honestly, sometimes your thunderous schtick reminds me of the SNL gag about a cynical Picasso (Jon Lovitz) in a cafe - scribbling on napkins to pay his tab and fascinate passersby: “Here kid, go to College”.  “Fraud,” “Bunk,” “Dodgy stuff”. I know you are capable of thoughtful analysis and topflight prose but you have hardly demonstrated it here ..

Thanks, Mark, for answering my second question in the affirmative. Now for my first question. What evidence do you have that the visionaries - all six of them - affirm what they know to be false or do not believe to be true when they say that the Blessed Virgin Mary appears to them? You’re asking me to believe that some teenagers living in a Communist country in 1981, the oldest then aged seventeen, got together and said: “Hey, guys, I’ve got this great idea for the biggest scam in history! Let’s fake some apparitions of the Virgin Mary. We’ll get Jakov (aged 10) to go along with us, he’d fall for anything. This time in thirty tears we’ll be millionaires!” By the way, Mark, do you have a clue whose idea these apparitions were in the first place?

Hi John,

You must be mistaking me for someone else.  I never said that the visionaries are victims of persecution.  In fact I never mentioned the visionaries at all in any of my posts.

Nor have i said that I believe or disbelieve the Medjugorje phenomenon.

I am simply pointing out the fact that the case for or against Medjugorje is not as obvious as Mark is saying.

You are wrong to say that the Church doesn’t rule on apparitions/visions until they are finished.  The Church regularly gives a negative appraisal before events come to an end. However it wont give a positive appraisal until events come to a conclusion.

Finally,  The Church has not ruled definitively on Medjugorje.  Its a matter of fact that the Vatican has established a commission under Cardinal Ruini.  I will take my lead from there. 

Ruairi,

Am I mistaken? I agree that I insinuated that you would claim ‘persecution’ on their behalf. That may or may not be the case. But you are clearly in the visionaries’ corner contra the Church. You are objectively at odds with the local bishops. They have disapproved of the apparition, and you are claiming that the Church has not done so. That sounds like you have made up your mind here. You are appealing to a higher authority, when that higher authority established these bishops, and gave these bishops the ability to rule on these matters, and they have disapproved of the visions. So you’re right in the sense that the Church can disapprove of an apparition before it is completed. You are wrong in the sense that the apparition has not been disapproved. It clearly has by the local bishops. And being “open” to approval at this point, is manifest disobedience itself. You are either with the bishops, or you are not. Which is it?

John,

Thanks for responding to my post.  I meant to say in my last post that your point vis-a-vis the Catechism is well made and I concede that point.
However to suggest that being open to approval of the Medjugorje phenomenon is manifest disobedience is certainly stretching things.  I presume that the members of the Vatican appointed commission presently investigating Medjugorje are open to approval or disapproval.  Does this make each of them in manifest disobedience?

Ruairi,

No, of course not. Rome can disagree with the findings of the local bishops. You and I however do not have that luxury. You are bound by Lumen Gentium, 25, and you must adhere to the competent authorities in these matters. The competent authority for these “visions” are the local bishops and they disapprove, end of story. If a higher authority should disagree with them, so be it. But until that time we as the faithful are bound to their decision. So it’s not a stretch, its basic Catholic obedience. You either are with the bishops, or you are not. Which is it?

Ruairi, you wrote “You are wrong to say that the Church doesn’t rule on apparitions/visions until they are finished.”  The truth is it could be argued either way.
-
It is well known that the appartitions of three of the seers at Kibeho in Rwanda have been approved by the Vatican.  Another of the seers to this day reportedly has an annual apparition on May 15, but this seer is not approved.  So, here we have a case of an apparition with an approved component and an unapproved component that is unfinished.  Tough call.

John,

I think that you are stretching the meaning of LG a little too far.  Not even the bishops of Mostar would claim that believing in Medjugorje is putting a person in disobedience to their ecclesiastical authority. 

The bishops of my diocese have always been tolerant of the Medjugorje phenomenon and have allowed the various visionaries to speak in our churches. 

Incidentally I have heard Bishop Peric preach on a number of occasions and have been most impressed by his thought.

I not only respect him for the office he holds in the Church but I particularly respect him for the courage he demonstrated during the Bosnian war.

I just haven’t decided if I agree with his appraisal of medjugorje.  This doesn’t put me outside of obedience to his office.

Michael:

My evidence is that the bishop says nothing supernatural is occurring and the “visionaries” claim there is.  They are also living quite comfortably off the fame and riches that false claim has brought them.

I am under no obligation to prove anything.  They are.

While I lean to believing that Med. at least began as true, my faith will not be shaken if it isn’t.

All I can say is there are still folks out there who think Fr. Corapi should be canonized.  I’m wary of all things that come in shiny packages with bows. 

What the Bishop says is not evidence. It is a judgement of fact which is valid only if supported by sufficient evidence to enable a reasonable person acting reasonably to make it. The late Bishop Zanic never reached a judgement worthy of the name about Medjugorje. He ranted and raved against it after he had been compromised by the Communists. By the time he died, the Holy See had taken matters out of diocesan jurisdiction. As for proof, whatever the visionaries depose in witness statements confirmed with an oath or a Statement of Truth is evidence capable of proving a case in a court of law if unrefuted by other evidence. You, Mark, have asserted that they are lying and have been doing so continuously since 1981. What you assert, you must prove.

A lot of freaky stuff is going on there. But could it not still not be supernatural like from Satan?

re Bishop Pavao Zanic

His position with regard to the apparitions moved from vehement approval to vehement opposition. And so, his positions made a big contribution to the spreading of the knowledge of Our Lady’s apparitions throughout the world.

In the first two months of Our Lady’s apparitions, the Bishop was in Medjugorje five times. Afterwards he came only to confer the sacrament of Confirmations to the faithful.

He clearly said: “I am deeply convinced that no child who says that they have seen Our Lady, has been talked into doing so. If we were speaking about one child only, one might say he could be stubborn and that not even the police could make the child renounce what he said. But six innocent, simple children in the space of half an hour, would, if they were pushed, admit all. None of the priests, I guarantee, had any idea of putting the children up to something…. I am also convinced that the children are not lying. The children are only speaking out what’s in their hearts… It is certain: the children are not lying”. (From a sermon given on the feast of St. James, the patron saint of Medjugorje, on the 25th of July 1981).

In “Glas Koncila”, the Croatian national catholic newspaper, 16th of August 1981, he stated; “It is definite that the children were not incited by anyone, and especially not by the church, to lie.”

So here we have a situation where the local ordinary was convinced that the seers were not lying and publicly stated his opinion. I often wonder about those people who were obedient to the bishop in the first instance and then found themselves in a position of ‘disobedience’ because bishop Zanic had a change of mind.

A similar situation may arise if the Holy See rules in favour of the claims of apparitions. The current local bishop does not believe in the phenomenon and John H attempts to suggest that the people who do believe are in disobedience. Yet if Rome rules in favour will the people who choose to believe still be in disobedience simply because the local bishop expresses a personal opinion of disbelief?

“So what happens if I am wrong?  Well, nothing.”

If Medjugorje is true and the Queen of Peace is appearing with urgent messages for the conversion of humanity (that includes you), then I would say that your ignorance of her pleading is indeed a tragic loss for your soul and the souls of those you have discouraged from going. 

God bless.

I am with you on this one Mark. Without Vatican approval I have no interest in Medjugorje.  It would not surprise me, if it were intended a detraction to the message of Our Lady of Fatima that played a big role in the 30 very active years my wife Lori and I were involved in The Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima, now the World Apostolate of Fatima.  In my 63 years as a Catholic convert, devotion to Mary has greatly shaped and filled my life with favors I can never repay.  The two WAF International Pilgrim Virgin Statues and the National Pilgrim Virgin Statue have individually graced my life six times. I say apply the spirit directed toward Medjugorje to the message of Fatima that has strong Vatican approval.  The world desperately needs the Fatima message.

LOL, and I say this with all fondness and in good fun, at times, not only does Mark Shea seem to be an electro nut magnet, he now officially earns the title electro fanatic medj magnet! Keep ‘em comming Mark!

Sorry, Mike. But the vehement disapproval of two bishops *is* evidence.  That you don’t happen to like the evidence is not my problem.  Given the choice between bishops who have endured the brickbats and insults of True Believers (“he ranted and raved”) and the “visionaries” who have made a fat life for themselves off this fraud, I’ll go with the competent authority.  I’ve got nothing to prove.  The “visionaries” do.  And they have no proof, because they are frauds.

For Bob Rowland:
The world does indeed need the Fatima message, which is continued in Medjugorje.  The messages are the same, just with more emphasis.  If you love Fatima, you should love Medjugorje (it’s the same Mary).

For Mark Shea:
If the “vehement disapproval of two bishops *is* evidence”, then why is Medjugorje not officially condemned?  And why is the Vatican doing an investigation on it?  Answer: Normally the power to approve/condemn apparitions is for the local ordinary (local bishop) to decide.  However, for the first time in the history of the Church, this power has been removed from the local bishop and reserved to the Vatican only.  Therefore you might want to reconsider your “evidence”.
Peace in Christ.

Bernard,

My main beef with Medj. approval ppl, is not simply that they approve, but that they continue to preach Medj, lead pilgrimages, and say things like “it’s a just a continuation of Fatima with more emphasis… It’s the same Mary.” We, as laity, have absolutely NO authority in these matters. We have been explicitly told NOT to lead pilgrimages to this place. And yet many continue to make the claim that these are true (even though they have no competence in doing so) and they continue to lead pilgrimages. I love apparitions. I think they’re a beautiful part of our Faith, and they have their place. But they were never meant to sow discord among the faithful, and they certainly are not meant to sow disobedience to the explicit wishes of competent authorities. If the rulings of the local bishops aren’t enough for you, then will a Vatican Commission be enough? Will the Pope be enough? When does it end? If even the Pope himself disapproves, will you then wait and say, “well, we’ll find out the truth at the end of time.” Medj advocates have a competent authority now telling them to stay way, and yet they persist in going, and in spreading the “message.” There is one absolute inerrant and inspired message from God, and it’s not Fatima, it’s not Lourdes, it’s Divine Revelation, which ended with the death of the last Apostle. No new revelation is coming. What we have is a Church to guide us into all truth. And if a “visionary” is asking you to disobey the Church, we as Catholics should stay far, far away.

This past Sunday my wife and I went on pilgrimage to the Shrine of the Queen of Peace in Hrasno, Herzegovina; there were approximately 5,000 pilgrims gathered there on this occasion of the 35th anniversary of the shrine.  Bishop Peric was the main celebrant and homilist at the Mass concelebrated with a dozen priests of the diocese; before Mass a number of priests heard confessions.  Pope Benedict XVI marked the anniversary by attaching a plenary indulgence to pilgrimages to the shrine on that day.  The shrine in Hrasno is the legitimate, recognized Shrine of the Queen of Peace, about 25 miles distant from Medjugorje.  It was a blessed day.

I am a convert to the Faith.  Fatima was the first visitation of Mary that I read about.  When I read about Medjugorje, something just didn’t seem right.  I wanted to believe in all apparitions, but there are some that are troublesome.  Thereafter I always looked toward the Church and her judgment.  Without her approval, I will not follow.  After years of these visions at Medjugorje, I wondered why the apparition didn’t know what a simple convert knew.  A vision cannot be approved until it’s over.  If it’s truly Mary and she wants her message believed, why not stop and let the Church pass judgment.  The Lord is King and the Holy Spirit guides the Church in truth. If Medjugorje is from God and they end, then they will be approved. Why then repeat, and repeat, and repeat and not be obedient to what the Spirit ordains in the Church.  This is one, and only one reason, I do not think Medjugorje is from Heaven.  Fatima’s message is alive and still believed even though the Virgin no longer appears there.  Fatima is for our time.  If the messages are the same (?), why do we need a repeat?  Let’s promote the “APPROVED” message. I believe Medjugorje is a demonic (or maybe just human) distraction which we do not need.  And if Mary is not truly there, who is it that we are giving devotion to??  I will wait so that I can be sure that my devotion is given fully to God.

You don’t understand how law courts and public authorities work, do you Mark? Bishop Peric has never had jurisdiction in relation to the apparitions and has never formally examined the evidence. Bishop Zanic was biased and corrupt. He reached a judgement which was manifestly perverse on the evidence and would never have survived judicial review before a civil authority. A valid judgement by a public authority is merely a finding of secondary facts reasonably supported by primary facts contained in the evidence. If the visionaries have deposed witness statements reinforced by oath or a Statement of Truth, any judicial authority would find them probative even if there were no other evidence before it. You say the visionaries are frauds. I say you are a defamator.

Mr. Sam Wagner, you wrote to Mark Shea:
“If Medjugorje is true and the Queen of Peace is appearing with urgent messages for the conversion of humanity (that includes you), then I would say that your ignorance of her pleading is indeed a tragic loss for your soul and the souls of those you have discouraged from going.  God bless.”
-
How can you honestly write that?  If Mark Shea listens to the messsages of approved apparitions such as Fatima, Akita, and Kibeho, and more importantly listens to the messages in the Bible, then you can’t write that.  Each apparition should be seen as supplemental to the Church’s revelation in the Gospels.  If Medjugorje is true then yes it is a loss, but it is hardly a threat to his salvation.

Tom D - good advise!  If we all paid more attention to the Gospels instead of false and unnapproved apparitions this whole dialetic would be unnecessary.

Thanks for the link Mark.  I have to give credit to some people who have offered serious, critical analysis of things that have been swept under the rug.  I offer some very good resources for people wanting to balance out all those positive things, with some of the other things that the Holy See is likely including in it’s analysis.  The Vatican does not judge on fruits alone.  In fact, fruits weigh in after events themselves are validated.  If someone is claiming a heavenly vision says there are four persons in the Trinity, and there are conversions and vocations coming along with the ride, we could not say that this was an authentic event (and I’m only using this as an example since no one has claimed there are four persons in the Trinity).  There are some interesting twists regarding the events themselves that must be analyzed with regards to Medjugorje.  That is why the Papal Nuncio, in his announcement about the Commission in 2010 told the people of that nation, that the Holy Father felt Medjugorje was a question, and one that he felt responsible to judge.  Here is my post with some very good resources to click through. 

http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2012/05/resources-on-medjugorje.html

Mark, Excellent article and spot on accurate.  I have been to Medj twice. Once in Oct 1987 (week of Black Monday NYSE CRASH) and again during April 1989.  We went both times with our parish group led by our pastor ( a wonderful holy priest) and stayed in the homes of villagers. Although it was becoming commercialized at that time it was well before the institutional commercialization going on today.  Both trips were beautiful aided by the stark contrast of the South Florida Gold Coast vs the peaceful mountains,lovely people of Medj, and prayerful, holy and religious atmosphere. Yes we saw the disc over the sun, looked at it without harm to my eyes, witnessed some of our members have their rosaries turn to gold color etc…That’s why we went twice. Before going the first time, I read the book by Laurentin the imminent Marialogist and put a lot a stock in his opinion. At the time, Fr John Bertolucci OFM, was the Father Corapi of his day, and also a avid supporter (Fr JB later got caught up the the priests scandals). Upon returning in April 89, I started to really getting into Medj.  At that time E. Michael Jones/Fidelity Magazine/Press was doing extensive investigations about Medj. I started reading everything from the Bishops of Mostar etc, etc, etc. At the end the facts were overwhelmingly against Medj. What really convinced me was the life style/lack of humility of the seers versus say Lourdes, Fatima or other approved apparitions. In the end you can’t fake “Holiness”.  It comes from within and personal humility is the Key ingredient.  Then the Yugoslavian Bishops report of Nov 91? with a 19-0 vote against the apparitions being supernatural just sealed if for me. It is sad that subsequent reports and warnings from the successive Bishops continued to be ignored….DISOBEDIENCE ON STEROIDS! So much of the “knowing them by the fruits” so often quoted by the well meaning but misled. Satan is a supernatural spirit who is capable of performing all of the outward signs that dazzle people. They choose to believe signs rather than truth. Loss of faith is at risk.

If the Church were to put her teaching authority behind the endorsement of an apparition, we would be obliged to believe in it.  But the Church doesn’t invoke her authority that way.  So Mark was right to say, “all that means is that I may believe, not that I must believe.” And if the Church were to approve some private revelation that didn’t convince you or me, we’d only be obliged to recognize the fact that devotees would be permitted to believe in it and to carry out devotion in the forms approved.

then surely the judgement of Schoenborn is serious in question.

And if the messages of Medjugorje are so obviously in conflict with the teaching of the Church,  as other Medj.  detractors claim,  then surely the theological literacy of Card.  Schoenborn is seriously in doubt.

Recent actions by the Cardinal amply demonstrate that his pastoral judgment is open to serious question, indeed. Forcing a priest to accept a non-celibate gay man on to a pastoral council is but the most recent example.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/vienna-wien-austria-14073/

However, his role in the promulgation of the Catechism took place long before his recent erratic behavior. It is fallacious to suggest that his championing of Medj and the CCC are linked, especially since he was not the only person who shaped the CCC.

Frankly, I think it’s safer to say his erratic behavior has coincided with his lionization of Medj., which ought to be of some concern to apparition proponents.

Dale,

There has been an update to that story on Cardinal Schonborn.  Once again, he is being called on the CDF carpet.  See this: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/cdf-demands-explanation-from-cardinal.html

Cardinal Schonborn’s pastoral judgment is ... well…  never mind.

Sam:

I’m sure our Lady will be understanding if I’m mistaken.  Till then, I stick with the competent authority.

Michael:  Yes, yes.  The competent authorities are evil and corrupt.  Some sort of clever lawyerly rigamarole shows that the creepy defrocked priest and shady hucksters who have fattened themselves off their “visions” for 30 years are the only ones to be trusted and the bishops are to be shouted down.  Just some of that beautiful “Fruit” I’m supposed to accept as “proof”.  No thanks.

I don’t know how anyone can believe that Medj is authentic.  One clear point is that the “vision” instructed the seers to disobey their Bishop.  Our Lady would NEVER, EVER tell anyone to do that.  As one commentor mentioned, the children at Fatima and St. Bernadette suffered greatly—not just physically, but in many other ways.  The devil is perfectly capable of performing seemingly miraculous occurrencs just to sway Faithful Catholics from the Church.  This will be a test, for sure.

Michael writes: “Bishop Peric has never had jurisdiction in relation to the apparitions”. That is a puzzling statement. It seems to be contrary to the Church’s theology of private revelation, its history, and its established procedural norms. The renowned apparitions that have gained official approval from the Church were approved by the respective local bishops. The 1978 SCDF document “Normae Congregationis” says: “The office of supervising and intervening is, first of all, within the competence of the local Ordinary.”  The Yugoslav bishops’ Zadar declaration of 1991 acknowledges the local bishop as the primary pastoral authority in regulating events at Medjugorje: the influx of visitors requires “the pastoral attention and care, first of all, of the local Bishop”.

Surest sign it isn’t real? The way people get so upset when you say you don’t believe it. Every time I see a blogger post on this topic the comments are so negative. “have you ever BEEN there? Huh? HUH?!?”

Inspires such defensiveness and aggression. No good

And the comments are so much more lively. almost as bad as National Catholic Fishwrap when they post an article about how awful our “reactionary” pope is :)

it’s funny how upset people get when others don’t agree with them. I deal with that on my small family blog that I had to take a break from because of the cruel words people were saying about my pro-life stance.  I don’t pay much attention to Medjugorje, either, because the Church that I love and trust hasn’t given me any reason to and I understand that no apparition in history is essential to my salvation. Sorry people seem to lash out at you for having your opinion! I admire your courage in stating what you believe and hope I can do the same.

Mark, I believe there is something supernatural about Medj. all right—those are Satanic apparitions, they always were, and they always have been.  Look at the “fruits”—a “faithful and devout” priest fathering a child with a nun; apparitions urging the “visionaries” to obey their local ordinary (and since private apparitions are NOT a matter covered by infallibility, the laity are required to obey the local ordinary unless he is virtually commanding them to commit serious sin, which never was the case here).  Also, another of these bogus visionaries came through the U.S. on their annual dog-and-pony show a few years back, scheduled for, amongh other places, Washington DC and Minneapolis-St. Paul.  It came out that the “faithful and devout” priest had recently been expelled from the Franciscan order, and laicized by the bishop in Mostar diocese, because he was in the habit of providing one-on-one spiritual direction and hearing confessions while he was on tour.  Somehow, when he was giving “spiritual direction” to the teenaged girls and young women, they found themselves providing oral sex (at his holy spiritual direction). 

Some of the “signs” such as rosaries changing color are, in long Church experience in discerning these things, signs of Satanic activity and not of the Holy Spirit.  All of this charging after signs and wonders, and the vicious ad hominem attacks on anyone who dares suggest that things are not what they appear, is highly suspicious to me.  I believe that all of the time and money spent on unauthorized trips to Medj would be far better spent on charitable activities and Eucharistic adoration.

Finally, one of the poisonous fruits of Medj and the whole lucrative private apparition racket is the serious disruption of Christian unity.  We have zealots who “believe” in a matter not bound up with faith & morals viciously attacking “non-believers” and skeptics.  I would suggest that those on both sides who are biting and devouring each other re-read St. Paul’s writings on Christian unity, doing everything in accord with the bishops, etc., and then ask themselves seriously whether the game is worth the candle.

Correction:  I should have said “to disobey their local ordinary.”

The blithering banality and mediocrity of the alleged “messages” is yet another factor which militates strongly against the authenticity of Medj.  If you read the messages given by the Blessed Mother at Guadalupe, LaSalette, rue de Bac, Fatima, Akita, and other approved apparitions, the Blessed Mother’s messages are all highly intelligent, succinct, and to the point.  The “messages” of Medj sound like the bogus visionaries themselves talking; the voice is simply not at all similar to those of the approved apparitions.

Also, it has been well said that in the last days, God will make use of even Satan to work out the salvation of the elect.  Due to gross dereliction of duty with respect to religious education and spiritual formation at all levels (family, parish, diocesan, and yes, even at the level of one’s taking personal responsibility for one’s own salvation), most Catholics here in the USA are woefully ignorant of even the most basic truths of the faith.  If they go to Medj for some spiritual experience, they find that the Franciscans in that area, acting true to their Franciscan charism, are well aware that the local ordinary has discouraged pilgrimages, and yet the pilgrims are still coming in droves.  They made a conscious decision many, many years ago to provide basic spiritual services (spiritual education, confessions in a variety of languages, reverently-offered Masses, Eucharistic adoration, etc.) which has proven to be helpful to the seekers coming to Medj. 

Funny thing is, if you think about it, these basic spiritual services are what Americans should have been receiving all along, here in the USA.  Americans should not have to travel to the other side of the planet to experience basic spiritual education, reverently-offered Masses, the opportunity to do the Eucharistic adoration, etc.  This should have been freely available to all, all along.

From viewing the videos of Mirjana’s apparitions I am continually convinced that Our Lady is truly appearing there.

“Dear children! Also today I rejoice with you and I call you to the good. I desire that each of you reflect and carry peace in your heart and say: I want to put God in the first place in my life. In this way, little children, each of you will become holy. Little children, tell everyone, I want the good for you and he will respond with the good and, little children, good will come to dwell in the heart of each man. Little children, tonight I bring to you the good of my Son who gave his life to save you. That is why, little children, rejoice and extend your hands to Jesus who is only good. Thank you for having responded to my call.” Medjugorje message, December 25, 1997

Say what you want about Medjugorje.  Until the Church officially condemns it I will continue to follow these beautiful messages of prayer and peace, God-willing, until the day I die.  Praised be Jesus Christ.

Sam: Is it a beautiful message from Mary which darkly warns that those who trust the ordinaries of Medjugorje are in danger of “tragic loss” for themselves and others?  Or do you come up with that manipulative rubbish yourself?  More of that beautiful “fruit” of Medjugorje!

Mark, your position is truly one of the classic cases of ignorance- the meaning of which is *judgement before kmoledge*
I have been there 8 times, took about 200 people with me over the course of those 8 trips,and witnessed things that continue to impress me.
From the people I took there have been 8 conversions to the Catholic Faith, several healings, not of a dramatic nature, but healings none the less.
I took 4 Priests there, and one later told me he had been very close to leaving the Priesthood until he went, but changed as a result of hearing hundreds of Confessions in Medjugorje.
I have NEVER, in my 77 years, heard of Satan being involved in someone being converted to Catholicism !  Maybe you have and would share that with us.
There are non so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE !  Tim Dooling

The sign of obedience.  That is all I need.  I remember the shock I felt when Teresa of Avila’s confessor told her to give the visits of Jesus “the fig”, which was some kind of Spanish hand gesture of disrespect (lol, hard to picture)  It was Jesus himself who smiled, and was delighted with her obedience, praising her for it though it was dreadful to follow through on.  The Divine Mercy devotions were condemned for some time.  Why?  Who knows, but they couldn’t have been highlighted at a better time by a better apostle!  whatever is “handed down”, on Medj. shouldn’t make us skip a beat.  All good things come to those who wait.  All generations will call her blessed.  Regardless.

Mark, if you have any knowledge or information of your own that one or more of the visionaries are lying, or are such inveterate bad characters as to be unworthy of belief on their oath, then I urge you to set it down in a witness statement and send it to the Commission at the Holy See which received testimony from the visionaries themselves in February. Since fraud is a civil crime in most countries, you might also consider making a complaint to the Bosnian police.

The Commission doesn’t need my help.  They will review the finding of the bishops, ratify them, and say—yet again—that Mary is not appearing at Medj.  That’s all the evidence I need that this is a fraud.  The burden of proof is not on me.  It’s on the “visionaries”. They got nothing.  Because they are frauds.

I tell you again, Mark Shea, that you are guilty of the sin of defamation. You have no knowledge or information of your own that the visionaries are lying. If you did, you would have a moral duty to send it to the Commission. The burden to prove that they are seeiong Our Lady is initially upon the visionaries, and their own witness statements are sufficient evidence to discharge it at least on a balance of probabilities. If they are frauds, then they are also criminals and Bosnian police should be notified. A reason I do not accept the decision of Bishop Zanic is that he refused to consider the scientific report of Dr Henri Joyeux. The reason he gave was that the experts who tested the visinaries did not speak Serbo-Croat and relied on interpreters. If judicial review were available in the Church, the decision of the Bishop would have been quashed on the grounds that he failed to take into account relevant evidence. There are several other scientific studies which observe that, among other things, the eye movements of the visionaries cease within one fifth of a second of each other and focus on an external object visible only to themselves. They do not blink at all during 3-45 minutes (the eye must blink up to 20 times a minute to lubricate the surface of the eyeball). Their voices fall silent, though all the muscles of speech other than the larynx are active. This is physically impossible - you can’t isolate the activity of your own voice box from the other speech muscles. If the Commission does not admit and consider this evidence, then it could not validly make any determination.

The arguments against the Medjugorje phenomenon are redolent of “book-larnin catholicism” arguments against protestant feel-good, snake handlin’, believin’ on the promise fundamentalism.  Medjugorge is all about a 30+ year tent revival, with the eucharistic Jesus as the main event.  People “feel” at Medjugorje events; they don’t just opine.  They are inspired in such a way that they come to “know” the presence of the Holy Spririt there, which is anathema to all those who need a logical syllogism to come to belief.  Jesus was a hill-billy, and all true believers have to reject the magenta linen in a certain sense.  Even those who wear it.  Especially those who wear it.  Peace!

I have to disagree with Matt B:

It is claimed that Mary has appeared and is appearing to these seers.  That is either true or it isn’t, regardless that people are inspired by the story.

And to Michael:

That the seers say Mary appeared doesn’t make it true that she did; the bishops, looking for other substantiating evidence of a true Marian appearance, have judged that it cannot be said that Mary appears or has appeared.

Mark,

I’ve asked you this before after reading another of your articles on Medjugorje. The youngest of the visionaries was 10 years old at the time of the first apparition. Can you present us with some kind of credible picture for the motivation of this “fraud” as you have called it, in what was then communist Yugoslavia, by young immature children, and show us how they were able to collectively maintain this story over the years?

Until you can present people with a detailed realistic idea of the how and why, you will continue to come across as merely trollish on this subject.

Mark,
There is too much protestantism left in you.  Lower case is intentional because I’m applying a slightly different meaning to the word. I tend to agree with you and I have been to Medjugorje 2x.  It is beautiful but some of the more recent fruits especially concern me. It is your approach that irritates me. You are divisive and nasty and accomplish no good in your articles.  You are seeking and stoking a hot debate to get more hits at your blogsite.  This approach to disagreements leads to 200,000 different churches in the Protestant world.  We certainly do not need to have those divisive, argumentative, nasty, name-calling, grenade-launching tactics brought back into the Catholic world.  Why not just gently repeat or describe the fruits of Medjugorje that concern you without all the rest of the confrontational crap you throw at the “devotees”.  Let’s all just remain “devotees” of the Lord alone and His Body which, of course, most wholly includes His mother.  We can wait patiently and with docility for the direction of the Apostle’s successor.

I’ll try to answer Adrian (at 6:55 AM), but briefly:

The Herzegovina Province of the O.F.M. had enjoyed complete hegemony over the Catholic Croatian population of Herzegovina for quite a long time.  There was scarcely a family who had not given a son or cousin to the ranks of the Franciscans, and politically, religiously, and culturally, there were strong ties between the people and the friars.  For a great number of years there was no Catholic hierarchy, and the people looked to the friars in the absence of church governance; through Turkish subjugation and later under communist authority, the people looked to the friars.

Pope Leo XIII re-established the Catholic hierarchy in Herzegovina; in the 20th century, Bishop Cule and Bishop Zanic, both of them non-Franciscans, were rebuffed by the Herzegovina Province in their efforts properly to regulate the diocese in accordance with the wishes of the Vatican and even at the direction of the Franciscan Father General.

I suggest that the Medjugorje seers fabricate their visions in a strange kind of loyalty to the homegrown friars of the Herzegovina Province, against intrusion by bishops and communists and anyone else who would change the relationship that has long existed between the local people and the local Franciscans, and eclipsing the power of the local O.F.M. province over the people.

This is my opinion…

I don’t get it.  If apparitions are important to you there are lots of approved ones, like Lourdes, Fatima and Guadalupe.  Why get all excited about something that is not approved and has caused such dissension?  The main thing is to love and follow Christ.  The Church was given to us by Christ to help guide us in our journey to Him.  The Church has not approved it and has doubts. Why ever would I bother with it?  Do people just want to go there to see a spectacle?

I’m a pretty neutral party who doesn’t get excited over apparitions in general.  They are interesting, but not necessary to the faith.  My opinion is that if satan wanted to cause confusion and make an “apparition” this would be the way to do it.  Distract the faithful.  Appeal to those who need to “see” something interesting or be part of something important happening.  Of course there will be people coming to the faith.  Of course there would be an increase in whatever (vocations, prayer, miracles, etc.) because it wouldn’t appear legitimate otherwise.  Satan is the author of lies.  We wouldn’t go anywhere near it if it appeared to be evil.  That is why the Church needs to investigate and approve it or not.  That is its job. 

In the meantime, I won’t waste my time on something not approved when we’ve got great approved apparitions, and we already know what they teach: humility, obedience, deep prayer, the rosary, repentance.  I don’t need another apparition to tell me what I have already heard.

Years ago I knew squat about Medjugorje, but I had heard about it. Then in my business I met a man born and raised there and asked him about the “visions” and the “seers.” He told me that the “seers” were teenagers who got caught smoking and the story they came up with was that they had a vision of the BVM. And….as they say…..the rest in hsitory…. and follow the money.

Poor blind Mr. Shea; the one that refuses to listen to his Mother. Well, yesterday after I got off of your poor excuse of another attack against Our Lady, I went to do my prayers for the day, of which I have a wonderful book, that YOU NEED called “Medjugorje Day by Day” by Father Richard J. Beyer (1993ad) and the reading for the day was addressed to YOU AND YOUR UNBELIEVING FAN CLUB: “I want to teach you and help you walk in the way of holiness. There are many people who do not want to understand my messages nor to seriously accept what I am saying.—If you pray, God will help you discern the true reason for my coming. And so, little children, pray and read the Sacred Scriptures so that through the graces that have accompanied my coming, you can discern the messages in Sacred Scripture for you.”  Yes, this is so much AGAINST Holy Scripture and the Teachings of the Church (and of one, Mark Shea).  A few of your posts that I read, you mentioned about your ego, for instance, you think that just because Pope Benedict ‘reads’ your nonsense that he is agreeing with you or whatever; the truth is completely different. You remind me of the Wizard from MGM’s version of “Wizard of OZ” with that huge head and I keep having the vision of you trying to fit through that very narrow opening into the Gate of Heaven that Jesus told us about. I hope that you are the very last one to enter Heaven (shut off all lights before you leave the planet) and enter in feet first, otherwise your ego will block the gate for everybody else and they won’t be able to enter.  +JMJ+     

With every new approved apparition there are false accusations hurled at the children, many detractors and persecutors of the children and the words of the Mother through her little ones.  At the time the Fatima and Lourdes apparitions were happening they had not been approved yet many people of good-will reasoned that if the Blessed Mother had something to say that was important enough that the Lord willed her to appear in the present world, it was worth traveling to honor her and listen to her words.  They did this prior to Church approval and answered her pleas for repentance, regular rosary prayer, daily Mass, etc.  It is not unreasonable for people of this generation to respond in exactly the same way to the possibility that the Lord has willed that His mother once again call us all to repentance and the Sacraments.  When the Blessed Mother does appear is it for some superfluous reason that can just be dismissed by those who think they are honoring her Son? Let’s please stop dismissing and judging the faith of those who do nothing different than Catholics in 1917 Fatima.

Belief in visions, approved or not, are not necessary for salvation.  I love our Blessed Mother and I have a special devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. But, my faith in her Son is where I will find my salvation. Those who place apparitions and visions above Our Lady’s Son, are as misguided as those adherents to Bayside and other satanic visions.  Our Lady would never encourage that. Like Mark Shea, I wait for the Church to render a decision. Whether the Church claims the visions to be false or true, it matters not to me for belief in Her Son and obedience to His Church is what keeps me anchored.

JMJ - thanks for proving my point

For those who wish to get a clear and objective picture of the Medjugorje phenomenon, I recommend Medjugorje Revisited: 30 Years of Visions or Religious Fraud? by Donal Anthony Foley.

I have been to Medjugorje four times.  Each time was faith-filled in what I felt there and brought home.  If you read what is being asked of us, you would find no fault - prayer, fasting, conversion.  Nothing is being asked of us that we shouldn’t already be doing.  You see so many people going to Confession, Mass, praying. Think about Padre Pio and what he went through.  He wasn’t believed either.

Roger,
Your comment smacks of superstition, bigotry and lacks logic. Would you consider yourself tolerant and open-minded?

Dear MarkC,
You wrote:
“Show us you have done your own homework and are not using this phenomenon to cynically drive up your own visitors ..”

That is my thought…because, last summer Mr. Shea posted a sensational headline claiming to have proof that the messages of “Anne, a lay apostle” were false. I followed his blog for months, and he never backed up his claim.
Provocation may be his goal.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/navigating-medjugorje#ixzz1vLQaprxg

It’s funny that “believing the competent apostolic authority over the word of somebody who has gotten rich and famous off their ‘visions’” is now referred to as “protestant”.  It’s also funny that, while I tell nobody what they can and can’t believe on this matter (since I’m, you know, not a bishop), I have plenty of people darkly warning my of my Eternal Doom, if I don’t sign off on what the frauds in Medjugorje claim.  In short, being a believing Catholic is not enough for some people.  Something extra is required to be saved and that is Medjugorje.

Me: I don’t care if people want to waste their time on this.  No skin off my nose.  I even acknowledge that most of the people who believe it do so in good faith, being ignorant of the evidence against it.  I freely acknowledge that such people are fine, honest Catholics and that I think God honors good hearts.  But for some True Believers here, anything less than unquestioning belief is a sin against God Almighty.  Their motto is “Liberty for me, but not for thee.”  Sorry.  No thanks.  I am perfectly within my rights to agree with the bishops of Medj and regard the claims of an apparition as bunk.  In fact, I’m more within my rights to agree with the bishops then True Believers are to allege that a 19-0 finding again Medj. is an Eeeeevil Conspiracy.  Who gets rich and famous and popular?  Who gets reviled?  Not hard to figure out.  The bishops stand to lose by opposing the fraud.  The “visionaries” stand to gain.  Occam’s Razor says the bishops are telling the truth and the rich and famous “visionaries” are not.

Speaking of which, it’s also funny that instead of exercsing common sense, the tried and true conspiracy strategy is trotted out to explain that my views on Medj are due, not to the fact that I think the bishops right, but because of some nefarious scheme to drive up traffic on my blog.  FWIW, I have no idea what the the traffic on my blog is.  But judging from the over 600 comments I got the other day for discussing a Protestant reader’s difficulties, it would appear that if I was a click hound I’d stick that topic.

No.  Sadly, the explanation is much more mundane: I wrote what I wrote because it’s what I think.  It would be good if My Way or the Highway Medj zealots could cope with difference of opinion.  I’m not telling anybody they are going to hell for buying Medj.  But I hear from Medj zealots all the time that if I don’t buy the lies the “visionaries” are selling at a tidy profit, God is going to damn me.  More of that beautiful “fruit” I hear so much about.  No thanks.  I’ll stick with Holy Church.  And she will, never fear, ratify the finding of the local ordinaries which state unequivocally that Mary is *not* appearing at Medjugorje.  When she does, I pray with utmost sincerity that the cocky Inquisitors damning brother and sister Catholics to hell over this rubbish will grow some humility and stop sitting in judgment of their brothers and sisters who are, after all, simply submitting to the rightful authority of the local bishops.

A bit vexed, Mark?  I’ve seen the other side: clergy cocktail parties where “men of the cloth” snicker superciliously about ignorant plebians gushing over “rosaries turning gold.”  The point about Mary at Medjugorje is that grace don’t all flow down the chain of command.  The visionaries main faux pas has been to aver that bishops can be fallible and corrupt.  Coincidentally, we learned that here in the US, no?  Another big lesson is that God raises up, who he raises up!  Most times Mary appears to children, who astonish and confound grown up churchmen.  How dare the Mother of God accuse the stewards of her Son’s Church with being officious, careerist, worldly cowards!  Good things the Popes listened and acted on her advice, regardless of how things are falling out on the endorsement side.  Also, you’re putting way too much emphasis on the filthy lucre involved in Mary’s service.  You might as well accuse the Pope.

Doubt Medjugorje, Be Accused of Being an Officious Careerist Worldly Coward Who Is Supporting Child Abuse.  More of that beautiful “fruit” that pours forth from Medjugorje.

Also, the logic “Sometimes people doubt real apparations, therefore these ‘apparitions’ are real and you are sinning against God if you question that logic” is somewhat wanting.  Equally amusing is the defender of the rich and famous “visionaries” complaining about “too much emphasis on the filthy lucre involved”.

As the the Pope involved, his name is Benedict and when the commission reaches its conclusions, the local ordinaries whom you have gratuitously slandered as cowardly, worldly, official careerists (ah!  *smell* the beautiful *fruit* of Medjugorje!) will be vindicated.  Hope you can grow some humility and repent what you wrote here on that day.

Mark,
Your anger and defensiveness is clouding your ability to read what is written with charity and give the writer the benefit of the doubt. You like to lump every person who joins the debate into one group of “medj zealots”.  All those here who take a little more neutral position do not belong in that group.  It seems to me, you are more uncharitable than some of those you rail against. I don’t believe Matt was labeling you or the local ordinaries as “cowardly, worldly, official careerists”.  He’s simply pointing out that there are and have been such people in the Church who over the 2000 year history have caused confusion and created scandal.  There are misinformed bishops, maybe not in this situation but they do exist.  There are wolves in sheep’s clothing in both the clergy and the laity.  It is good to reserve judgement.  And, by the way, you like to judge the fruit of others, where is your good fruit?  Are you pleased with the way you engage the people who disagree with you here?

I don’t know much about all this, but what Mark is saying jives with me. I’m a skeptic for now. Do we really need miracles to tell us to pray and stay faithful to God?

Dear Mark…  We will attest to the miracles that have occurred, and are occurring, in Medugorje to you, and to the highest authorities of the Church—any time and any where.  Remember, if it brings you closer to God or others closer to God, it is from God.  Too many people have had intimate and personal experiences with the living God and his Blessed Mother in Medugorje to say anything different.

I’ve been struck by the fact that a woman who was mostly silent in the gospels has evidently spent the last three decades talking, and talking, and talking, and talking.

Mary’s final words recorded in scripture are worth remembering:

“Do whatever He tells you.” 

That is the one “message” from Mary we can all listen to and heed.  And that should be enough. 

What was it that Christ said when the apostles were upset about people outside their circle doing things in the name of Jesus…something to the effect of “leave them alone, if they are not against us they are with/for us?”  Should we consider our Lord’s words in light of what Brother Robert Anthony and Fr. Z and 42 million others have pointed out (many conversions, & confessions)...at least until the Vatican gives a final declaration.  It is not uncommon to have the local ordinaries and the Vatican see things differently while the events are still allegedly occurring.

I’m confused, (another medj fruit?) I thought this discussion was about medj not Mark Shea?  The tone of some medj supporters responses here certainly need to be called into question. 

I guess we should expect these kinds of protests from those who rely more on the volume of their rhetoric and less on divine providence?  I also suppose as medj becomes more and more forgotten and the pilgrimage season less and less lucrative each year, this kind of rhetoric can be expected to increase?

It may be years before the Church or Pope affirms the visions or not.  Mark was not being personal, he was stating facts as they are.  Miracles can also happen if you have faith.  That can happen anywhere at any time.  Many people claim miracles from saints relics who died many years ago.  “By their fruits you shall know then” spoken about false prophets.  We have seen many in the last few years.  If the visionaries claim to be having visions each day, if they are traveling around telling about their experiences and getting fees from them something is amiss.  Sister Lucia died a few years ago, yet she remained in the convent.  She never went on the internet or guested on tv.  Instead she only wrote down what had happened by the orders of the bishop or her confessor.  I for one smell a rat, and will be really surprised if the Church approves these.

You are a pain in the censored.

If God appeared to you right now,  you would ask for His TRiune NAME RANK AND American Social Security number. 

You stifle the Spirit. What a shame. 

I am praying for you to be open.

This is what happens when pride enters the scene. Of course, we all know that pride creates the scene…but, we invite it in.  Medj is false. Get over it. Obedience is better than sacrifice.  It is sad because once the Holy Father makes his declaration, if it is what many believe it will be, all of you Medj followers will be crushed. That, in and of itself, is proof that you place your hope in a falsehood.  If the verdict is positive, it is no skin off my nose. I have invested nothing into Medj and everything into obedience to the Church.

Mark, when you talk about the “fruit of Medjugorje,” do you mean like the weakland kumquat, which costs $400,000 - just to squeeze?  Or mahoney melons, which have the potential to feed 2.5 million people, but when they wake up after eating it, half their real property is gone.  Or the hubbard big apple, a favorite of the Kennedy-Cuomo’s for two generations now.  Or how about the rare bernardine, which is very sweet, but takes 40 years to ripen.  Or deacon dingleberries?  They’re well-suited for mass production, substitute for passion fruit where the latter is unavailable due to blight, and require very little preparation.  In fact, if you’re talking about our Church here in America, it’s been among the fruitiest!  I’m sure you’ll agree.

Deacon Greg, if we hear scant few of the Blessed Mother’s words recorded in scripture, I guess that puts her in a league with such nabobs as the Apostles Philip, Bartholemew, Nathaniel, James, Simon and Thomas, who also are relegated to scriptural obscurity.  I sense a veiled misogyny in your comment, which is in any event impertinent.  I wonder if, lacking the ecclesiatical appelation affixed to your name, it would deserve any consideration at all?  I guess when the clergy was opened to the ranks of married men, it conferred on them nevertheless all the officious bombast of seasoned, ossified windbags already cluttering up the clerical ranks.  But more to the point, if all you’re getting out of your Marian reflections is 5 words of scripture, you should return in earnest to your beads.  A man in the pews.

Sister Terese, and that precisely is the problem.  You have no skin in the game.  Medjugorje, and more precisely the intervention of God in people’s everyday life, is very real indeed to those who believe.  That’s what pontificators like Shea are missing totally.  To them it’s some academic exercise in church decorum like whether communion should be taken on the tongue.  They see Medjugorje believers as dupes.  They don’t see into the conversion stories are changed lives.  They can’t.  They’re too invested in form, and not enough in substance.  I can understand MS, though.  He’s got to peddle his controversialism 7 days a week in an unforgiving medium.  But you, Sister, are called to really care.  It’s a pity.  I guess that’s why religious sisters in America today are little more than clergy in waiting for some phantom feminist anti-pope of the longed for dystopian future.

Why science demonstrates nothing: http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/medjugorje-science-demonstrates-nothing-part-1.html

Mr. Shea: if it is “no skin off of your nose”, then why do you keep bringing up your hate and unfounded lies about Mary, Medjugorje and the Seers? How do you know that they are rich and not humble? What do you know about their personal lives? Catholics are poor in supporting God’s Church and why would they be so rich in helping these visionaries to live such a life-style that you seem to believe that they are doing? It sounds to me that there is a hint of jealousy just because Our Lady hasn’t appeared to you.  +JMJ+

Matt B: Sad, indeed. Rash judgement? You don’t know me…you have no idea what kind of religious I am nor to the state of my immortal soul. You have no idea what my beliefs are regarding our Blessed Mother, my devotion to or lack thereof. You don’t know what I’ve had to go through in trying to live out my vows and Traditions as a sister. You have no idea what persecutions I’ve had to endure—even from my own community—to remain faithful to my vows and the Traditions of my Founder. How dare you!!!  You just proved to me what Mark Shea stated: That anyone who even hints at disagreeing with Medj (like Bayside et al) is immediately routed as a “less-than-believing” Catholic.  Wow… Like charismatics, many vision-followers, esp. Medj, are blinded by emotions and “feel-good” experiences. When our Lady was told that she was to be the mother of God, her words were: “Let it be done to me according to your words.”  Her response was pure trust and obedience. PERFECT OBEDIENCE. St. Therese said once, “To ecstasy, I prefer the monotony of sacrifice.”  Nuff said…

Sister Theresa, you are perfectly correct that I have not the least knowledge of the state of your soul or your practice of religion.  I yield such marvelous knowledge to your Master and mine.  However, how do you know that my comments are not motivated by obedience?  Also, if St. Theresa can compare the advantages of ecstacy and obedience, it follows she must have known both.  No?

Matt B, just listen to yourself! Your tone here is breathtakingly unpleasant. Do yourself a favour: examine your conscience, apologise to Mark, Deacon Greg and Sr Terese and start truly modelling yourself on our most gentle Queen and Mother, Mary. You have my prayers…

Maria, I step back from my tone.  It’s half put on anyway.  There’s nothing really at stake except for all that snowfall into hell.  I also acknowledge that Mary seems pretty pacific in those nice statues and pictures.  I wonder how she really feels about receiving all those dead souls aborted by materialism, bad catechesis and the lukewarm indifference of clergymen.  I hear these are more effective at killing unborn souls than saline solution and suction techniques are at killing unborn bodies.  I thank you for your prayers.

I agree, Mark, 100 %.  I have read some things that Mary was supposed to have said, and they were against the teachings of the Church, read about the disobedience of the priests there, and that ALL bishops so far agree there is nothing from heaven going on.  I also know people that have gone there, felt great spiritual strengths, and two young men that heard their call to the priesthood, BUT the same types of things have happened at Bayside, NY, and at Naceda, WI, and both of those have been declared not true, and both have people that refuse to listen to the Church.  If someone has a strong belief in Mary’s intercessory graces, they can be helped ANYWHERE, and it does not take a visit to the true apparitions for that to occur, and can occur somewhere where it is NOT a true apparition, also.
Although it is most likely I will never get to Fatima or Lourdes, or Japan, or any of the other approved visions took place, I have read much and watched much about them, and my belief is strong.I pray all here will adhere to the Church’s decision.

As a Medjugorje devotee myself, I have no problem with anyone who chooses to disregard or reject the apparitions at Medjugorje. The public deposit of faith is more than sufficient for conversion and full Easter faith.  Private revelation can be a spur to conversion for many - as, for example, Our Lady’s apparition to Juan Diego at Guadalupe let to the conversion of millions of indigenous peoples in Mexico - but private revelation is not required for anyone to embrace.

When someone utilizes a platform such as the National Catholic Register to opine on an event such as Medjugorje and render a verdict such as “fruad”, “hucksters”, and accuse devotees of planning ecclesiastical schism, it seems that some standard of evidence, argumentation and reason ought to be met.  Just as it would be weak and unprofessional for a political commentator such as George Will to use his forum at the Washington Post to announce “Barack Obama is a traitor and not a citizen of the United States” but fail to present his evidence and reasoning behind such conclusions, so it is unprofessional of Mark Shea to pronounce Medjugorje a fraud and Medjugorje devotees of planning to secede from the Church if/when a negative decision were to be passed down by the CDF.

While thoughtfully choosing not to believe private revelation is not a sin, unreasonable incredulity is a vice; to pronounce Medjugorje a “fraud” without presenting any facts or argumentation is both unprofessional and viscous. In the past, Mark has pointed to the phony scholarship of Michael Davies and EM Jones to support his thunderous dismissal of Medjugorje; now he points, not to any body of scholarship but to a very zealous woman with a blog, a lot of time on her hands, and a very large axe to grind against Medjugorje (and, by extension, any person supportive of Medjugorje - witness her snide dismissal of the pastoral sensibilities of a Cardinal of the Church on this very thread).

One would hope they could turn to the National Catholic Register and find a balance discussion of any given issue - facts, arguments, conclusions. One would expect a discussion of Medjugorje at this site would mirror the discernment process being undertaken right now at the CDF. Mark Shea has shown - one again - he is the true phony; a lot of bluster and a casual footnote to an ocean of unspecified sources.  However, this time he has chosen to slander real people - without any apparent discernment - the visionaries and the devotees of Medjugorje. Belief is not required, but a reasonable discussion of the facts should be. Incredulity is a sin and so is slander.

Why should I subscribe to the NCR to read the juvenile rantings of Mark Shea?  I can read graffiti for free in any public restroom ..

@ Sister Terese Peter, Sister, I want to commend you for your faithfulness to our holy Catholic faith and to your vocation.  We need more people like you.  I especially appreciate your emphasizing the need for obedience to the competent spiritual authority, who are, after all, the successors to the apostles.
In general:
“Thoughout the ages, there have been so-call “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church.  They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith.”  CCC, 67. 
The total lack of charity, and the spirit of Satanic pride that has infected this entire discussion is getting pretty repellent to me. 
For those who are interested in a very well-written article by Father Peter Joseph treating of the discernment of true (as opposed to false) apparitions, please see christanorder-Oct. 2004 “Apparitions True and False.”
Also, please bear in mind the teaching of Saint Vincent Ferrer about those who go chasing after private apparitions and private revelations-that “these are spiritual temptations which are very common and whi God permits for the purpose of purifying and testing His elect.”...“Although they do not appear to attack faith directly, yet they who carefully examine them cannot fail to see that they destroy the chief dogmas of religion, and set up the thronw of Antichrist.” 
The saint counsels that “the first remedy against the spiritual temptations which the devil plants in the hearts of many persons in these unhappy times is to have no desire to procure by prayer, meditation or any good work, what are called revelations, or spiritual experiences, beyond that which happens in the ordinary course of things.  Such a desire of things which surpass the common order can have no other root or foundation but pride, presumption, a vain curiosity in what regards the things of Good, and, in short, an exceedingly weak faith.”
Finally, “[t]the majority of raptures and ecstasies, or, to call them by their proper name, the frenzies of these forerunners of the Antichrist spring from this cause.” 
Remember, lying signs and wonders so as to deceive if possible even some of the elect?  Where did that come from? 
The adherents of private revelation who claim that the magisterium of the Catholic church is somehow in error when it forbids public pilgrimages to as-yet unapproved apparition sites are not only guilty of disobedience to that local bishop, but they are also pitting Jesus Christ against his Church.  Are you claiming that you have the authority to make definitive judgments as to the validity of these matters, over and above that of the local bishop or of a committee appointed to deal with the matter?  Or, are you somehow saying that Jesus Christ is a liar, and that he did leave us orphans, and that the Holy Spirit is not directing the magisterium of the Catholic church? 
Since private revelations are not, I repeat, ARE NOT, matters of faith & morals, no one should use them to set up divisions and cause dissension in the Church.  As Father Peter Joseph so ably pointed out in his article, it is most definitely a sin to promote unapproved private apparitions or revelations or prophecies when the local bishop has given this instruction, but one can never sin in obeying the competent authority, in this case, the local bishop in the Diocese of Mostar.

Also, since the alleged Medj apparitions are still ongoing, how can any Catholic in good standing suggest that the Church can deviate from its s.o.p. and give a favorable opinion as to as-yet unknown, and future, events and revelations?  What is wrong with this picture?! 
The only possible thing the good bishops in Mostar could do is precisely what they have done:  urge caution, discourage pilgrimages to an as-yet unapproved apparition site, and then, when the “fruits” became manifest, i.e., disobedience, sins against Christian unity, and then the money-making machine moved in and took over, to give a negative opinion. 
I still hold to my longstanding opinion that there is indeed something supernatural going on at Medj and that it is Satanic in nature.  Previous bogus apparitions have a demonstrated history of leading their adherents straight out of the Church altogether, and that is what appears to be shaping up here.

A problem for Medjugorje is that investigations to date have not produced evidence sufficient to indicate that Mary appears or has appeared in Medjugorje; and so the bishops have judged.  And absent any new evidence the current commission will also rule negatively.

Tom, the Bishops haven’t judged a thing. Bishop Zanic refused to consider the scientific examinations of the visionaries. This connoted failure to take relevant evidence into account. The decision is not reasonably supportable on the facts. If it were a decision of a public authority in England, the High Court would quash it in judicial review and tell the authority to think again.

Pride reigns on both sides of this discussion.

How easily some dismiss the decades-long, lasting conversions of millions of pilgrims who gratefully embrace the Blessed Mother’s call to increased commitment to Christ and His Church, to daily Mass, Scripture study, rosary, and weekly confession.  A large majority of these souls gladly embrace the word of Mary in Scripture and in Fatima, Lourdes and Guadalupe.  They are living out this call to daily Mass, rosary, scripture study and weekly confession. Last count was estimated at 42 million pilgrims. Thankfully the CDF and Vatican will take a much more measured look at these good fruits than those of you who reject the whole thing out of hand.

Granted some may go looking for sensational signs and wonders, chasing after experiences rather than the Lord. This is nothing new. In every situation there are such folks.  Christ Himself encountered some in the crowd bumping up against Him with no real desire for His transforming grace. 

I pray for the wise and careful discern of the CDF.  Millions of people are living, faithfully, the Sacramental life as a result of profound religious experiences resulting from going out in search of the Lord via pilgrimage.  The Lord promises that those who seek, find.  A negative pronouncement will contradict direct experiences of many pilgrims.  However, I suspect that the daily rosary, Mass, scripture study and weekly confession of such souls will draw the necessary closeness to Christ and His Mother to guide them through any resulting confusion.
Pax Christi.

Thank you, Catharine. It has been a long road for me and one other sister in trying to remain faithful to our vows. Please keep us in your prayers as we are trying to start a new foundation of Traditional sisters loyal to the Church and obedient to her rightful authorities. Neither one of us are “spring chickens” but God has provided us the way and means to tackle this venture. But, the devil is never satisfied—he attacks at our most vulnerable areas relentlessly. We must always have our Blessed Mother’s faith and trust that her Son will guide us on the right path.  As for Medj, this discussion has caused me great sorrow. I am not going to participate any longer because it will do nothing but continue the division further. That is what the devil wants—divide and conquer. May our Holy and Blessed Mother continually etch in all of your hearts, the Image of Her Divine Son.

please see this information:
http://www.medjugorje-apologia.com/position_of_the_church.html

@Maureen,

I’m afraid a plane ride to Bosnia Herzegovina isn’t a fruit.  Where do you get your facts and figures from, divine revelation?  Where are all these “lasting conversions of millions of pilgrims?”  Ireland?  Western Europe? America? 

42 million pilgrims?  How many of these were already practicing Catholics?  How many were there just out of vain curiosity?  Are you sure it wasn’t 420000 pilgrims returned 100 times because the ‘fruits’ are temporary?

I find your assertions baseless, unknowable and unsupportable.  Furthermore, they may even be evidence of cult like thinking in their sweeping, unwarranted claims.

@Sr. Terese Peter - I’d love to learn more about the new foundation and possibly help if I can.  Is there anyway I can find out more?

Dismas,
Is that really what you got out of my post?  Did I assert that a plane ride is a fruit?  Can 420000 people really afford 100 trips to any one place?  Your portrayal of sincere people seeking God is condescending and uncharitable.

My assertions are far more supportable than your post.  Do a little research for yourself.  Tourism data for Medjugorje is accessible to all with computers and a little curiosity.

Yes, I believe many were already baptized Catholics and many had grown very worldly and cynical in the 20th c., a century that brought more Christian martyrs and deaths of innocents than the previous 19 centuries combined. Many lost a sense of their Catholic identity in our post Vatican II world where, for a couple of decades, it became avant-garde to consider Christ just another great man among many and the Christian faith just one path to God no better than any other.  Reductionism, low-christology, and the abuse of the historical method caused many to drop ancient devotions.
Theologians and clergy truly let down the faithful in their open rejection of Humane Vitae.  Many were led into sin because clergy stopped speaking about it from the pulpit.  Many were led to believe that sin, miracles, sacred scripture, angels, demons, heaven and hell are all myth.

Pilgrimage to holy sites can re-invigorate lagging faith.  The Blessed Mother has had an important role in this last century reminding us all to “do whatever He tells you”. Christ has not left us orphaned in this horrendous century.  St. Faustina and Fatima point to that fact, too.  People trusted in those supernatural experiences of the Risen Lord, the angel of Fatima, and Mary’s admonitions even before the Church gave formal approval. It’s no surprise! People are hungry for God.

I don’t really care if people reject or accept Medjugorje but I am very tired of the elitism, holier-than-thou, hostile attitudes of some people toward those who go out in search of the Lord via pilgrimage. Going out in search of the Lord began with the apostles when Mary Magdalene reported seeing Him alive.  It’s been going on since the very beginning of Christianity.  Not all paths we take in life are straight but all people who sincerely seek God, find Him.  Christ promises this and He can be trusted.

I am content to let the events of Medjugorje unfold until the CDF discerns.  My faith does not depend on it one way or another.  God has a plan even for this event in history.

@Maureen -

In addition to not answering my questions you gave me more rationalization.  In addition to my previous ‘evidence of cult like thinking’ assertion, in light of your most recent post allow me a couple of additional questions.

Why would I seek guidance from the travel industry?  Do you work for or are you associated with the travel industry in any way?  Regarding your statement about ‘sincere people seeking God,’ do you think that Rev. Jim Jones and his followers were sincerely seeking God when they took their pilgrimage to Jonestown or would that assertion be condescending and uncharitable in your view as well?

Dismas:  I love your name. Did you know that St. Dismas is the patron saint of those in prison/prison ministry?  I used to work in prison ministry many moons ago.  Your prayers would be much appreciated.  If you like, you can email me at: srterese@hotmail.com.  We can communicate further, if you want.  God bless you!

Oh Dismas!
That post is pathetic.  It does not even warrant a response.  I have no intention of going into the gutter with you. If you will not give my posts a fair reading you are not worth my time posting.  My career choice is none of your business but I am willing to share these things with you:  I am a faith-filled obedient Catholic who has accepted everything the Church teaches, thanks be to God.  I am a daughter of the Most High in a deep personal relationship with Father-Son-Holy Spirit.  I pray daily with joy, study Sacred Scripture regularly, attend daily Mass, love the ordinary form and extraordinary form of the Mass, I make a good Confession monthly and make a holy hour in Adoration before the Eucharistic Lord twice weekly at least.  And I am a Catholic theologian.  I have no tendency toward cult-like behavior.  I hold no hostility toward you or anyone. Would you still like to continue insulting me?

Maureen -

I’m just sorry you find faith seeking reason pathetic and worthy of the gutter.  Furthermore, as a theologian, in the future, I hope you will refrain from arriving at your theological conclusions based on internet google searches of the travel industry, it’s embarrassing.

Medjugorje is divisive. Q.E.D.

All is well.  This division has nothing to do with Medjugorje.  It has to do with bad behavior.  Disagreements have been part of Christianity from the beginning.  They are the impetus for the councils.  People of good-will can disagree without being disrespectful toward each other. They can even find common ground.  Not Dismas though, he feels he has the right to judge and insult people he’s never met and knows nothing about.  I count these insults as a gift and offer them up.  Dismas, what theological conclusion to you think I’ve drawn from internet google searches of the travel industry? It’s a silly accusation.  Remember Dismas, “what you do to the least of my brothers…”  Peace to you my friend and good night.

Mark, I find your blog interesting but sadly ill informed.  Back in 1995, what I knew about Medjugorje was based on a 60 Minutes Report and a book written by Wayne Weible. I went there because I was curious, and I was an educated journalist.  I knew about the apparitions in Fatima and Lourdes, so I felt if this was indeed happening in my lifetime, what an incredible opportunity.  Unlike you, I was open minded and also felt that if it was a fraud I have lost nothing. My opinion on Medujorge, at the time was completely neutral but open.  My faith was already formed and I did not care one way or the other what my reaction would be. When I arrived I was simply interested in checking it out and seeing a foreign land.  What I experienced while I was there (and it had nothing to do with visionaries) was incredible.  As Wayne Weible had written in his book, “Medjugorje, The Message”, it was the closest place to heaven on earth.  (Keep in mind a war was taking place all around us at that time.) After that trip I visited Lourdes, The Holy Land, Fatima and Knock but I never again experienced what was happening in Medjugorje.  Instead of being so negative and criticizing something you have never lived perhaps you should live the experience yourself.  Anyone can read about something and make a judgement call but only those who act and do something can speak intelligently about the experience.  Whatever Rome decides about Medjugorje will be accepted by me, but that will not alter what I experienced and how it has drawn me closer to God.

Rule #9 for any combox discussion of Medjugorje is that anything negative in the world -  ethnic dissention, clergy misconduct (so rare these days), combox misbehavior (present company excluded) - is a “fruit” of Medjugorje. The corollary to this rule is that any positive outcomes from devotion to Our Lady of Peace at Medjugorje - conversions, vocations, healings - are due to the Sacraments only.  Any dissenters will be banned and mocked ..

Rule #9 for any combox discussion of Medjugorje is that anything negative in the world -  ethnic dissention, clergy misconduct (so rare these days), combox misbehavior (present company excluded) - is a “fruit” of Medjugorje. The corollary to this rule is that any positive outcomes from devotion to Our Lady of Peace at Medjugorje - conversions, vocations, healings - are due to the Sacraments only.  Any dissenters will be banned and mocked ..

It’s not often you read something in which every single statement is false.

Nobody says all evils in the world are due to Medj.  Just the evils being perpetrated by Medj zealots on behalf of Medj.  These include false witness, rash judgment, contempt for the bishops, and disobedience, among others.

Um, any good fruits *are* due to the sacraments, even with real apparitions like at Fatima.  The grace of God is what bring about fruit and that grace is mediated through the sacraments.  Pitting Mary against the sacrament is, well, just another one of those beautiful “Fruits” of Medj. that does so much to persuade me to stay away.

Finally, nobody’s been banned.  However, the guys like you have certainly been mocking of anybody who dares to doubt.

So, well done.  A completely false defense of a completely false claim of private revelation.

Wow, Mr. Shea, I can honestly say I had no idea that this was such a controversy.  I guess, thanks?, for letting me in on this bizarre corner of Catholic-on-Catholic rhetorical shame-wrestling.

@Mark Shea.  Nice rejoinder.  Now are you ready to document your assertion that Medjugorje devotees are planning schism in the event of a negative decision? 

Obviously you don’t have the keys to the NCR Blog, otherwise I’m sure anyone who dared to question your “research” would be banned; at least, that is how you run your personal blog.

Um. Re: Fruits of Medjugorje.  Are you stuck in eithor/or thinking? Is it not possible that the special graces of Medjugorje are due both to the efficacy of the Sacraments AND to the special intercession of Our Lady of Peace?

Seriously dude - you have shed any appearance of objectivity on this matter…

Wow…I’m done for sure.

MarkC:

God bless you.  The bitterness suffusing your remarks makes clearer than anything I can can say why I see no reason to reject the findings of the local ordinaries at Medj.  I have never made a pretence of being “objective”.  Asked to choose between the judgment of the local bishops and somebody who has gotten rich and famous off their fraudulent “visions” I think common sense clearly goes withe bishops.  Given this, and given the claims of “good fruit” from Medj (your poisonous malice being redolent of the bad fruit from Medj), I assume the good fruit is due to the sacraments.

So: I credit that most devotees of Medj are good people and that the bear good fruit.  Meanwhile, my skepticism about the claims of apparitions there are met with, well, your sort of rhetoric—which pretty much demonstrates why I am and will remain a skeptic who credits the local ordinaries over the word of the “visionaries” and apologist like you who do more than anything I ever could to engender grave doubts that what is happening there is from God.

Check out this website: thesensiblebond.com.  Try googling if it doesn’t work.  It will open your eyes.

Oops..that is a website for a different blog.  Sorry! :(

Dear Mark Shea,

Thank you for your prayer and your kind words about Medjugorje devotees. I have never been to Medjugorje and have no plans to go, although I understand Dubrovnik is stunning this time of year. 

I have no problem with your skepticism - in fact skepticism is probably the wisest course.  I do have a problem with a knee-jerk negativism and an exclusive reliance on amateur, hater sites - many of which have as much problem with Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, Ecumenism, etc. as they do with Medjugorje.

If you are going to use the platform of the National Catholic Register to opine, is it to much to ask that you do more than mock and insult?  Could you let us in on a little of your thought process and cite the facts and arguments you find most persuasive?  Instead you direct your readers to a site which has all of the objectivity - on this topic at least - as moveon.org does on Bristol Palin.

I know, I know, it’s your blog you can run it as you see fit. I just thought perhaps the NCR crowd deserves a bit more effort from you. I expect the “professional” Medjugorje folk can take the rough treatment, but the folks, the pilgrims - many of whom occupy the front pews in our Churches and even Seminaries - deserve a little more objectivity. 

PS. Perhaps I was wrong and you DO hold the keys to the blog.  Was that a scrub job of our little exchange on grace and the Sacraments? Oh well, its all good ..

MarkC:

I’ve mentioned, if memory serves, the Te Deum blog (which has no issues with V2, the Paul VI rite, or any other trad bugbears).  I also linked (since somebody demmanded it) a critique of the “Science” behind the tests done on the “visionaries”.  No idea what the theological views of that site are.  Not relevant.  You’ve got an uphill battle to make the case that the author of Te Deum Laudamus is a “hater” of anything.  You don’t have to work very hard, at the rate you are going, to convince me that you are a hater of anybody who questions Medj.

It’s a bit rich for you to wring your hands about mockery and insults while making Chesterton sneers at me, particularly since I don’t compare myself to him (except that we’re both fat).  Since that post had basically nothing of worth to say and was, in fact, a worthless sneer at my supposed self-identification with Chesterton, I thought I would delete it to make clear that, as a matter of fact, you are here on my sufferance and I do value polite readers.  Be nice, and I will let you keep posting.  Ignore that request and I will see to it that you are gone.  Comprende?

I know someone first hand who experienced great and amazing things at this place. He even wrote a book about it. What is the test for this place? God is honored and people come to faith via Jesus and His Mother.
“I will be with you until the end of time.”
To make this claim and not visited the site gives me pause.

Hhmm…I started my journey back- due to a book on Med. I read that Mary said, “Jesus is already so offened..” I felt a feeling of belief that has never been shaken in the least from that day.  So, if the devil is behind Med., he either can’t see the future, or knows he can get more souls turn toward him, away from God, than if he didn’t do this.  I know that we need to concentrate on loving God, plain and simple. Don’t worry about these details. Mary points to Jesus, her redeemer, always. She feels sad when someone will not accept Him. She will pray or speak kindly, but she won’t say to us what we’ve said to each other. Keep both sides in the back of your mind for a healthy skepticism, but unless it’s your job to decide for the church if it’s real or not, don’t worry about it.  If we do, and argue, satan wins. and laughs.

30 years ago the alleged visions created an uproar; it appears it has not died down much since then. 

Perhaps, Mark, you know something I have not heard (as I don’t follow this issue); but I seem to recall that there has never been a vision approved while in progress.  Is there something new indicating that Rome is moving on this, as opposed to sitting on it as it has been doing?

Vatican publishes rules on how to prove if apparitions are legitimate
2012-05-23 11:52:14

http://www.romereports.com/palio/vatican-publishes-rules-on-how-to-prove-if-apparitions-are-legitimate-english-6864.html

May 23, 2012. (Romereports.com) When it comes to apparitions, how does the Church determine if they are in fact genuine? The process is quite complex, so now, the Vatican’s website lists the norms for understanding the alleged apparitions and revelations.

The norms are in a 1978 document that shows ways to prove if an apparition is legitimate, or not. The document divides, both the positive and negative points.

Among the positive is the honesty of the person who allegedly saw the apparition. Also, living an upright life, mental sanity and the spiritual fruits of the apparition.

Under a false category, the document includes doctrinal errors in the message of the alleged apparition. Also listed are false apparitions that are used for monetary gain or those that lead the alleged visionary and his followers to commit immoral acts.

Found it:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19780225_norme-apparizioni_en.html

For Cathal Loftus:
Well, it’s obvious that you are thoroughly brainwashed by your Serbian collegues. If you wanna stay like that, and even proudly pretend you know something about Balkan’s history, go ahead.
Maybe they even convinced you that bl.Stepinac was moral monster and war criminal.

Had the pleasure of going to medjugorje twice, once when it was a part of the iron curtain and was communist back in 1988.  It was difficult to get there but was worth the experience. Very undeveloped at the time.  I must tell you, the experience changed my life.  Going to mass every day and hearing all the different languages, seeing hundreds of peopled in line for confession.  Patting on the mountain. Learning about the history if the people and their perseverance of maintaining their faith in Jesus and the church through it all. the enormous faith if this simple people who obviously had nothing to gain by all of it.  And even seeing a Tony miracle.  A boy on the trip had bought a silver necklace and cross, and during the rosary, half of the chain turned to gold while the other half remained silver.

But beyond all of it, the miracle was in my heart.  Being strengthened in my faith, and falling in love with the rosary. 

The second time I went was i’m 1998 and I was blessed to stay in one of the visionaries house named ivanka.  The entire time I was there she and her family waited on their guests and I hand and foot.  Not a bone of pretension in them.  At the same time humble knowing that they are sinners just like everyone else. 

I just want to say, I didn’t have to go to medjugorje to find Jesus.  He lives right here at home where I live in the USA.  However God wanted me to have a special holy experience, a retreat to rediscover my catholicism, and to renew and invigorate a love for his son and His mother. 

I just don’t want you to be frightened by the nay Sayers.  I’m not the official spokesman of the church and I to will humbly follow their proclamation on this issue.  Meanwhile, while i’m certain they will find it to be true in the future, you can take heart in the fact that even our late pope John Paul II said it was a holy place that he wish he could visit someday.

Mike B

PS the chaplet of divine mercy is a relatively brief prayer that can totally change you and your heart.  I highly recommend it!

Mr. Shea, After reading your commentary on Medjugorje My first thought was that your article was an editorial. In this case your opinion is by all means yours. So what? Others can agree to disagree.
If this article is not an editorial then why am I bothering to even read this publication. The secular press is full of opinion and very little legitimate observation, the kind which allows the reader to make a choice of sides or follow an impulse to research the information given. I personally don’t like mindless bias shoved in my face. I don’t like anyone implying a lack of intellligence or goodness on my part if I choose to believe a certain way. Just give the facts and let the reader feret out as much truth as possible. We don’t need anyones editorializing to “help” us make up our minds. Just the facts please, we aren’t all as stupid as you apparently think.

Ann:  Seems to me that this is exactly what Mark Shea has given us: the facts.  If others choose to not want to hear them or recognize the facts of this situation, well, that is their choice.  It seems to me, from what I’ve read, that it is NOT Mr. Shea who is flinging the insults and name-calling, but those who cannot fathom that they might be wrong about the legitimacy of the “visions” and “visionaries”.  It seems too great a price to pay for the emotional cost they’ve chosen to spend on this vision. Mr. Shea is merely responding to the name-calling and refusal for those Medj followers who refuse to even consider that they might be wrong and the Church might be right.  Believe what you want to believe—but don’t slam someone else for not getting on the same bandwagon.

Hi!  Interesting article and discussion.  Sorry, I was unable to read all the posts so that i don’t know if this was covered but if Medj is not of God then it definitely has to be diabolical.  I don’t think its simply about kids lying about what they saw and the like because too many supernatural events have happened there to simply call it a hoax or a fraud.  I know people who have had their rosaries turned to gold.  One local and esteemed Mariologist, Professor Courtenay Bartolomew, recorded the phenomenon of the sun spinning and changing colours in front of him.  So that if Medj is not of God it has to be powerfully of the devil, but I doubt that that is so since so many people have reported change of hearts and conversions as a result of Medj.  Many have returned to Confession, Mass etc.  Is that the fruit of the Evil One?

“But a significant number are and I do not underestimate the power of the human mind to resist reality it dislikes.” - Mark Shea

Nor do I. A little bit funny - you provide your own proof - one empirical data point of the truth of your statement!  :-)

To not accept Medj, fine. But I cringe when I read your calling the visionaries frauds, meaning they are out and out liars.

And while you worry about those who have bet the farm on Medj, and say they won’t back down even if the Church condemns it, you already state you will act to a degree like them when you say if the Church says it is is worthy of belief, you don’t have to believe it anyway.

One should remember that this Pope, at Fatima on May 13, 2010, prayed that Our Lady’s triumph come before the centenary of Fatima in 2017. This means then, that Fatima is not ‘over’ and the triumph spoken of there is yet to come, so Our Lady still has some ‘unfinished’ business as relates Fatima. So it is interesting that reportedly Blessed Mary has said, “what I have started at Fatima I will finish at Medjugorje.”

God bless you

Sister Therese says: “Seems to me that this is exactly what Mark Shea has given us: the facts.”

Then Mark should hurry and go tell his facts to the Vaticans’s Medjugorje Commission so they stop wasting their time.

Bob:  The Vatican already knows the truth about Medj.  No need for Mark to do that.  Let’s see how well the Medj folks respond if the decision is not good for Medj.  There is a Latin phrase that says, “The Church has spoken—the matter is over.”

“Occam’s Razor says the bishops are telling the truth and the rich and famous “visionaries” are not.”
Occam’s Razor implies that all of these anecdotal stories are false.  And that would include Fatima and Lourdes.  Why do the bishops get to overrule “reality”?

I just stumbled across this and have read all the comments…
Just would like to add my own humble 2 cents.

I grew up in a very devout, Marian household. My father, in particular, was very devoted to Our Lady and the rosary. When these apparitions began, I was 5 years old. My father immediately believed and followed Medjugorje with a fervor. In the early days, our home was cluttered with books, newsletters, and cassette tapes all about Medjugorje. We listened to an AM radio show every Sunday on the way to Mass called “The Medjugorje Message”.  Every time a book came out, we had it. I consequently read them all. We also received the monthly newsletter called “The Spirit of Medjugorje” put out by June Klins.
I never questioned the apparition growing up. It was part of our household. I never knew that it wasnt approved by the local ordinaries (I have no idea if my dad did either). My father fasted, prayed, all the “stones” of Medjugorje.
We had (which is now in my home) a prayer area which consisted of a 3 foot statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, a 3 foolt statue of The Immaculate Conception, a beautiful stone carved Station of the Cross depicting Jesus meeting His mothet, and a beautiful stone wall rosary, as well as a frankincense burner and perpetually full Holy Water font.
My family did not reap fruit from this devotion that I could ascertain. Out of seven children, I am the only practicing Catholic in adulthood. My father worked 60 hour weeks and my mother worked on and off between babies. Their marriage was the second for both, and subsequently they were not married in the Church. They didn’t receive the Sacraments or have their marriage blessed in the Church until 2001, after almost 30 years of procrastination in getting their annulments, and I believe this sudden zeal in being received was due to my father, at that time, being terminally ill with ALS.

My father lived and deeply suffered with ALS for almost seven years, unheard of. Most people die within 18 months of Dx.
I say that fruit of Medjugorje was absent. I believe that any good brought out of the fanatical devotion was due to the rosaries said and my Dad’s love for Our Lady. He offered his suffering for his soul and others. He never wavered in his faith for a moment throughout the illness. My mother became very upset with Our Lady and was almost offended that my father’s zeal and devout prayers, as well as ours, for her intercession were left unheeded (apparently).  They suffered huge financially in additions to the physical and spiritual toll. My father died firmly believing in Medjugorje.

(Just an aside, I do not and did not have any negative feelings to Our Lady regarding all this and subsequent events, as I try to see divine direction in all things)
After his death, my 15 year old baby brother was killed in a car accident ten months later, and my mother followed 18 months later.
I continued in my grief to pray and also kept following Medjugorje. I grew up with it and never thought to question its veracity. To do so would have seemed to me a slap in my Father’s face.
A few years ago, around the sixth anniversary of my Dad’s passing, I began to feel uneasy about the apparition. I don’t know what exactly sparked it. I go to daily Mass, also a daily holy hour beforehand. I go to confession no less than every two weeks.  I can only say that the daily holy hours were instituted at my church a couple months before this uneasiness began. Our Lord is so kind to those who sincerely seek.
I struggled for a while with a sense of confusion and almost betrayal for a while and then I decided to try and research all the facts in regards to the apparition.  I begged my holy guardian Angel for his light and firm direction.
In regards to researching truly about Medjugorje, I can attest that it is very difficult to find straight factual sites.  There is so much smoke and mirrors out there, so many misinformed websites, and so many people out there flatly posting biased reports and some flat out lies that it took a bit of time to find any place that was factual, pragmatic, completely obedient and faithful to the Church and that had official documents- not opinion and rumor.

I found official Vatican documents that Cardinal Ratzinger signed, flatly stated that “any and all comments attributed to himself or Pope John Paul II regarding positive exhortations about Medjugorje were fabrications”. This was not what I had always been led to believe- indeed many pro-Medjugorje sites insisted that both men favored the place.

I found straight translations of “Gospa’s” messages encouraging disobedience to the local bishops and that “they would be punished” for their lack of belief. This is not Our Lady. I had never seen these ones.

I found the “scientific” test reports. These are incredibly damning to the seers, as well as the documented behavior of the seers regarding submitting to the testing at all.  This is in direct contrast to all the books I had read growing up, and what is promoted on the sites.

I saw the reports from the Diocese of Mostar’s two consecutive bishops and what the commission said in 1991. I felt deep shame at being disobedient to these bishops. In fact, I found out the making of medals and statues of “Gospa” is not licit, so I got rid of the various paraphernalia I had collected and wondered in amazement why people were being so blatantly disobedient.

I read our Holy Father’s censure and laicization order of Fr. Vlasic and was astounded. He was the seers’ spiritual director for many years! In my Father’s early books on the place, the seers and “Gospa” were very laudatory of him!

I read the history of the Franciscans there and was deeply sorrowful about all the illicit sacraments being ongoing. What a offense to Our Lord.
I saw that the seers were very well off in a place not known for affluence. Indeed, the seer Ivan tours America, even in Protestant Churches (which is in violation of the doctrine of faith- Council of Trent, Vatican I) and the seer Marija is a supporter and patron of the Caritas of Birmingham group which is a very,very suspect Marian commune. She visits them and performs apparitions on demand for those people.
Not one vocation, in fact, this was attributed in Marija’s case to the fact that she would be ordered not to talk of the visions anymore if she became a religious and she chose the visions over obedience.
And on and so forth…
My eyes were truly opened and the scales were removed. This was hurtful and distressing. I did penance and asked forgiveness to Our Lord for following this blindly.
I am now at total peace. I have shared my factual story with believers, and without exception have been insulted, caluminated, detracted, condemned to Hell, accused of heresy, accused of hating Jesus and Mary, cursed, accused of being a sedavanticist… Not once have I been given the courtesy of having an opinion and waiting for the Holy See’s decision. 
I pray for all who are deeply devoted to this. I fear that this is part of the great apostacy, that many souls will not accept a negative ruling and will fall away into further disobedience. It takes a lot of bravery to admit publicly that one does not buy into Medjugorje without question.
Bless you all.

Wowie, Heather! So you’re asking us to believe that the visionaries - all six of them - have been lying through their pearly-white teeth for thirty years without anyone breaking ranks. That their spouses knowingly walked into the conspiracy and have kept perfect omerta ever since. That their adolescent or adult children haven’t found their consciences yet. What a wicked group of families if you’re right! Of course, the absence of good fruit in your family has nothing to do with the fact that, on your own admission, your parents lived in adultery until 2001.

Michael, I agree that my parents lived in sin for 30 years. My point being that for 20 of those thirty years my father was a devout Medjugorje follower. Why didn’t he repent after being so devoted? Why didn’t he feel urgency to receive Our Lord and take care of the situation? If conversion and a return to the sacraments are such a common occurance with people who follow this apparition, then why didn’t that happen? He went to Mass and just didn’t receive. He fasted and prayed to “Gospa”? This seems bizarre to me.
I did not call the seers liars. Please do not put words in my mouth. They may very well be oppressed by demonic influence and truly think they are receiving visions. I pray sincerely for them as well.
I do know that despite the outrage and attacks flung at me for my disbelief in these apparitions, I feel no discomfort in facing Our Lord at my judgement and stating I did not follow this apparition. He knows how much I love and treasure His mother and the depth of my devotion to her.
God Bless you~

Heather, I can neither explain nor account for your parents’ sins. For all that you have told us they might have contracepted as well. We might also observe that the seers of Medjugorje are married having never lived in sin, and that they show every indication of being faithful to their spouses in marriage. The reason I put words into your mouth about the seers being liars is that, in the nature of the case, either they are seeing Our Lady or they are affirming something they know to be false. If they were under demonic inflience, then ‘oppression’ isn’t the word. This would be a case of mediums trafficking with an evil spirit. Daily exposure of this kind for a period of thirty years would be, by many orders of magnitude, more than enough to do such spiritual damage to them that they would have left the Catholic Church many years ago. They would have ceased to be Christians of any description and would almost certainly be living lives of helpless promiscuity.

Michael, I only further addressed the perplexing nature of parents’ union because you so charitably pointed it out.
They were faithful to the Church in its teaching on married love.

I disagree that in regards to the effects of demonic influence would have made them fall away long ago. There is a case link to follow, that is very interesting to read about (in light of Medjugorje) with a nun who was under demonic influence for decades.
http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/sister-magdalena-of-cross-nun-who-made.html?m=1

My personal family testimony aside, what about the points I gave in my searching for the truth?
I will gladly provide links to these points and many more disturbing aspects. Is there a plausible, official explanation for these things?
I am sincere in asking, and genuinely do not wish any discord with you. I am at peace with my feelings regarding Medjugorje and to be frank, the divisiveness and discord over this apparition just deeply saddens me.

Heather, your points are entirely irrelevant. You show no sign of having applied the Norms Regarding the Manner of Proceeding in the Discernment of Presumed Apparitions or Revelations published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on 14 December 2011.

How can they be dismissed as irrelevant? Please explain to me.

As established in the Council of Trent (1512-17), the local bishop is the first and main authority in apparition cases, which can be defined as instances of private revelation.

Bishops evaluate evidence of an apparition according to these guidelines:

The facts in the case are free of error.

The person(s) receiving the messages is/are psychologically balanced, honest, moral, sincere and respectful of church authority.

Doctrinal errors are not attributed to God, Our Lady or to a saint.

Theological and spiritual doctrines presented are free of error.

Moneymaking is not a motive involved in the events.

Healthy religious devotion and spiritual fruits result, with no evidence of collective hysteria.
Very important are the fruits of the events, in which the goodness of their origin unfolds (cf. Mt. 7: 15-20). Genuine apparitions strengthen the seer in virtue, above all in humility and patience, while false revelations produce pride and disobedience.

The decisive criterion is the miracle, which must have an unequivocal connection with the apparition.

At present the verdict of the Yugoslav bishops’ conference from 1991 is still valid, according to which a supernatural origin is not established (non constat de supernaturalitate). This means that the “proofs” advanced by many devotees of Medjugorje for its credibility (light phenomena, healings, conversions) were not considered convincing. Despite the investigation by the Vatican, this is what is to be followed until the Vatican provides their report.

How are the things I pointed out irrelevant in light of these criteria?

You seem to have relied on matters relating to your father and to the vices of a priest who was once spiritual director to the visionaries. You haven’t seriously engaged with the criteria. The most important of these is the first: moral certainty or strong probability vs manifest error concerning the facts. This depends on whether the visionaries are reliable witnesses or not. Are they unworthy of belief on their oath or on their judicial Statement of Truth?

When I went on my search, I did not fixate on my family, I went to the official documents regarding the apparition.  The background of my family has nothing to do with what the Church says, and I set it aside in my search.  I just wanted your take on these official points- one of which you dismiss. What about the others I pointed out?  These are a few of many problematic things.
I understand that you believe it is real. However, are you unable to honestly look at these points objectively? Can you at least concede that these points are troubling?
I don’t understand why it is hard to be at least objective in addressing these matters head on in truth and charity. I spent years myself believing in this apparition wholeheartedly, but I could not explain away these things. It was hard to accept but it brought true understanding and peace.

The only official documents you mention are those in which Cardinal Ratzinger (as he then was) stated that “any and all comments attributed to himself or Pope John Paul II regarding positive exhortations about Medjugorje were fabrications” and those issued by the Bishop in 1991. The first set of documents are irrelevant and demonstrate only no comment on the part of Cardunal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II. As for the second set, The Holy See removed the matter from the jurisdiction of the local Bishop in 1987 as Bishop Zanic’s adjudication of the matter had been unsatisfactory. In point of fact, his procedure was blatantly perverse and his conduct in the matter disgraceful and unbecoming a Bishop. If there were such a thing as judicial review in the Church, his decision would have been strick down.

Michael, I am unsure and confused as to what you are stating happened in 1987. On January 18, 1987, a press release dated January 9, signed by Cardinal Franjo Kuharic, president of the Yugoslavian Conference of Bishops and by Bishop Zanic of Mostar, made the front page of “Glas Koncila” with the announcement of the formation of a new Commission of inquiry on Medjugorje - the text:

“In accordance with the canonical regulations which treat the matters of discernment of alleged apparitions and private revelations, the Diocesan Commission formed for that purpose by the Bishop of Mostar, the local Ordinary, investigated the events of Medjugorje.

During the inquiry these events under investigation have appeared to go much beyond the limits of the diocese. Therefore, on the basis of the said regulations, it became fitting to continue the work at the level of the Bishops’ Conference, and thus to form a new Commission for that purpose.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been informed about it. It has expressed its recognition of the Diocesan Commission’s work done under the responsibility of the local Ordinary, and it urged that that work be continued at the level of the National Conference of Bishops.

Thus the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia will form a Commission to continue the investigation of Medjugorje’s events. While waiting for the results of the Commission’s work and the Church’s verdict, let the Pastors and the faithful honor the practice of the usual prudence in such circumstances. For that reason, it is not permitted to organize either pilgrimages or other religious manifestations based on an alleged supernatural character attributed to Medjugorje’s events. Marian devotion, legitimate and recommended by the Church, must be in accordance with the directives of the Magisterium, and especially the apostolic encyclical Marialis Cultus February 2, 1974 (cf. AAS, 66, 1974, p. 113-168).

Zagreb, January 9, 1987

+ Franjo Card. Kuharic

President of the B.C.Y.

+ Pavao Zanic Bishop of Mostar

Bishop Zanic was part of this decision and encouraged the commission of 1991. Where did you find the position you are asserting?

The declaration made in 1991 stands as of now. I offered to provide links to what I found.

In regards to Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter, I bring it up because almost every popular site has aggressively claimed that Blessed John Paul II and now Pope Benedict XVI have made favorable comments regarding Medjugorje. Why is that?

The transcriptions of the messages and interviews with the seers in the beginning years are very relevant, and they provide overwhelming evidence of the “Gospa” inciting disobedience, taking sides against Bishops, as well as lies told and recorded by the seers themselves. The translators have even included copies of the original papers which were written by the seers themselves, to protect themselves (translators)  from accusations of fraud.  Those statements and messages considered on their own even are very troubling, as Our Lady simply would never do that. She certainly did not act in that manner in her appearance at Fatima.
In addition, it was related by the seers that the “Gospa” stated people are body and soul in Heaven, which is a heresy. I can post the exact words and dates of these troubling messages, if you are interested.

How could an authentic appearance of Our Lady be real when she is quoted stating heresy, encouraging disobedience to Bishops, and lauding priests who are in a state of grave sin?

The effect of the statement of the Bishops’ Conference was to substitute a judgement of “non constat de supernaturalitate” (pending further investigation) for the diocesan Bishop’s perverse finding of “constat de non supernaturalitate”. That means that the jury is still out. Because of the very large number of alleged messages, a finding of error or heresy in only one or a few messages is not sufficient to establish “constat de non supernaturalitate”. The CDF Norms explicitly provide that allowance has to be made for merely human error in reporting what was said by an alleged apparition. In an episode such as this, a negative judgement could not be entered unless there were a clear pattern of deviation from Catholic truth running through the messages as a whole, taking into account what is reported by several visionaries, and not by one of them alone.

Ihave been to Medugorje 30 times and honestly say over the past 5 years havent been there and have no intention to go back . Been looking into other aspects of it and find most priests very disobidiant to Bishop Laos the visionaries
and rally when you ask or get int dedate the supporters get really angry and annoyed. one preist explained why the Holy sea hasnt or vatican approved and the reasons make alot of sense. have different view now satan will tell u 10 truths to convince you of the biggest lie of all and yes I do love Mary and Fatima big differnce the 3 seers where not disobienant yo the church

regarding the words of the virgin that all religions are equal or all people of all religions are equal or that God rules over all religions..these are false utterances which contradict the syllabus of errors of POPE PIUS IX…all people have the potential for equality but they are not ipso facto equal…this destroys the notion of merit for good works..or the doctrine of mortal sin or being in a state of sanctified grace…

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.—Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.—Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.—Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.—Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849

the virgin has made statements which coincide with these errors…