A reader asks:
Before I re-read volume 1 of “Mary, Mother of the Son” I wanted to ask if you think it is worthwhile or advisable to try to address my friend’s claim that Catholics worship Mary. For brief background, he is a former Catholic who was poorly catechized and now belongs to a large non-denominational church.
I believe you’ve said that even after your conversion, you aren’t drawn to a strong devotion of Mary, even though you accept all the teachings of the Church (perhaps I am mixing you up with someone else; my apologies if I am). Since Marian devotion is such a contentious issue for so many Protestants, is my effort better directed at other areas of apologetics, like the Real Presence, authority of the Church, etc., and then working on the Mary angle?
I look forward to hearing your advice if you have any to offer.
Not knowing your friend, it’s hard to say where to start. I generally approach such conversations as a doctor would—by looking for presenting symptoms. What seems to be the big issue with your friend. It will be different things for different people. If “Mary worship” is the big bugaboo then start there. But if that’s just a toss-off complaint and the real energy is directed elsewhere, then start there.
However, as you do, be aware that there are other dynamics you must pay attention to. For people who have ditched the Faith for some form of non-denom Protestantism, there are usually two things to pay attention to: emotion and theological rationales for actions based on that emotion.
The emotional component typically comes first. And with great frequency it comes down to this: I was lonely as a Catholic because Catholics in my parish sucked at giving me love or mediating to me any sort of living experience of a God who love me. Evangelicals made me feel welcome and loved, so now I’m Evangelical. Piled on top of that fundamental dynamic is then a whole geological strata of after-the-fact theological rationales for a choice that was based, not on theology but on the fact that Evangelicals answered a deeply felt need. That’s where stuff like “I read my Bible and realized to my *horror* that Catholics were worshipping Mary and *that’s* why I left the Church!”
Bunk. All that after-the-fact rationalizing is just theological excuse-making for a choice made on completely different grounds.
My point is this: you can argue all day that Catholics don’t worship Mary (which is perfectly true, we don’t). But that won’t address the engine that is driving the ex-Catholic if his real reason for being ex-Catholic has nothing to do with the theological rationale he is offering. What also has to be addressed is “The love of God is present in the Catholic Church and there is a place there for you.”
This doesn’t mean that theology doesn’t matter. It does. In addition to addressing the emotional component of the person, you must also address the intellectual. This means, among other things, taking things in order. So while you might persuade your friend that, in justice, it is wrong to perpetuate the lie that Catholics regard Mary as a goddess, you will not get too far in discussing her place in the life of the Church till you have settled matters like the authority of Sacred Tradition and the *way* in which the Church reads its Bible. Folks in non-denom sects are instructed in a way of reading Scripture that seems sound, but is, in fact, a departure from the way in which the authors of the Bible themselves read it. If you are looking through a cracked lens of Evangelical tradition at the Bible, you will not see it as clearly as if you are looking at it through the lens of apostolic tradition.
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This post hits home with me. I often face the same question about Mary worship. I completely agree with your post in saying the answer in multi-faceted. As Catholics, we are responsible for our faith in how we grow, nuture, participate in, and protect it. Outside influences are continually pulling at us. We must remain fortified against this. We must ask ourselves, and our questioning friends, do you believe what you believe, or do you believe because you are told to believe? We must own our faith, and can only do so with knowledge of our faith. With acurate knowledge comes love of the Truth; you know, the Truth that sets you free!
Back to Mary worship, during Advent, I wrote a post on my blog dealing with it, by comparing it to the Creche, or Manger, that most people have as a focal point at Christmas. We don’t worship these figurines, but they serve to remind us of the greater truths of the Christmas Story. We pray to Jesus and worship Him. We pray to Mary, and other saints, for her help and intercesion in our faith life. I call our religious art, figurines, and holy cards, etc., earthly reminders of heavenly things.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
Getting to the heart of the matter is indeed important. Someone with an underlying animus toward the Church will not be satisfied by having one issue of concern addressed. More likely, as soon as one reply starts making sense, that person will shift to another issue (e.g., purgatory, praying to the saints, sola Scriptura, sola fide, etc.). Thus the responder spends a lot of time shifting gears while never addressing the core problem.
If you rise and heartily defend every anti-Catholic jibe your friend sends your way you fall prey to the ‘lame duck’ distraction. Not the political ‘lame duck’, I mean the way a Male Duck pretends to be lame and leads you away from its precious babies. People throw out these anti-Catholic one liners to distract you from the real issues which they are terrified of talking about.
I am an evangelical who admires and yet pities the RCC, the former out of jealousy for your unity and staying power, and the latter more out of ignorance and fear. Based on what I read and the shrines I see etc it “seems” like worship to me. I would like to be a catholic as I fear aim just a part of some big mess and end up wherever I deem best as though I were some final arbiter or magisterium unto myself. I have so many questions and so many fears. I have met Mark as I live near him. He is a very gracious man.
Michial, I will pray for you today.
The reader with the question says the following in his/her question: “...he is a former Catholic who was poorly catechized and now belongs to a large non-denominational church.”
I always find it ironic that a denomination calls itself non-denominational.
Ironically, but technically speaking, the Catholic Church is the only non-denominational church. which is also redundant because she is also the only church. all denominations are actually ecclesiastical communities.
Do not loose sight of the fact that there may be an underlying hurt that must be addressed. I believe that when an “ex Catholic” approaches you to discuss one of these areas of apparent contentions many times they are looking for you to give them an excuse to come back. While it may not always be the case, they may have seen something in you, and the way you live your faith, that they want.
Remember that Mary points to Jesus and that what we are called to do as well.
Michael,
Thank you for your openness and your upfront honesty about us Catholics. I’d like to humbly address your statement:
Who can deny our extremely strong devotion to the Mother of God? But I would propose to you, why would one want to deny it? She is the Mother of God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is our brother by grace. That makes Mary our mother as well. Isn’t it fitting that we honor and lovingly devote ourselves to the Mother of God? The point is, all devotion and honor granted to Mary is ultimately directed at her Son, Jesus Christ. And as St. Louis says, by going to Mary, we allow her to perfect our devotion to her Son.
I can tell you are a man of good will, and I pray that your desire to be closer to God will draw us closer to each other in the One Holy Faith.
Sincerely in Christ,
John
I too was touched by Michial’s comment.
Michial I can see why from your perspective it looks like “worship”. In the last year, I have grown closer to Mary as I read more about her apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe and to St. Catherine Laboure and as I pray the Rosary. Yet, it never seems like worship. I approach her as a mother and friend and as an intercessor with her Son. It not at all similar to praying the “Our Father”.
There is no doubt, Michial that you will find a close, satisfying relationship with God. You ar too concerned, open and questioning not to be successful in your search. Currently, I am reading one of Mark’s books which you might find extremely helpful, “By What Authority”. Great stuff, it describes Mark’s questioning journey to Catholicism. Well worth the read.
God bless you.
Living in the South, when confronted “aggressively” with this and other age old anti-catholic canards, I usually reply, ” Is that old Ku Klux Klan teaching about Catholics still being repeated? Wow! Amazing !”
This usually sets the attacker/accuser/questioner back on their heels in stunned silence. Most people these days would never acknowledge that they (or their family) have(had) “sheets in their closet” (Klan regalia). Then I quietly and patiently proceed into the apologetics of their statement. I always ask them, “Can I use your bible?” meaning the KJV, which further confounds them. (If they are not aggressive but kindly inquisitive, I don’t use this approach!!)
In truth, it is not the most charitable of approaches, but to have been a Catholic in especially the old rural south, was nearly a path to sainthood. The Klan funded so much anti-catholicism, especially in Mexico.
Mother Thresa once answered a sincere question from a non catholic. He asked her something about Mary. She answered, “No Mary, No Jesus. Know Mary, Know Jesus.” A year or so later she recieved a letter from him excitedly telling her that he “got it.”
Some of the Church is intellectual, and can be understood, to your benefit in that regard. Some of it is faith and trust. The kind that your mother can show you. When it is all said and done, God put Mary in the roll that she plays in our salvation, her roll is in the bible that the “nondenomiationalist” uses, and her adoration is clearly manifest in revelations. Christ Himself held her in high regard, she is His mother. If we are to imitate Christ it is only right that we do as He does. We can’t be like christ and disregard Mary.
Mother Teresa was approached by a protestant couple in Amsterdam who asked: “Why are you Catholics so mad (adoring) about Mary, Mother Teresa looked him directly in the eyes and said, “Without Mary, there is no Jesus”. Two weeks late she recieved a postcard and written in large letters was, WITHOUT MARY, NO JESUS.
I can’t think of a better answer.
“I call our religious art, figurines, and holy cards, etc., earthly reminders of heavenly things.”
Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above.
How do you know what these people look like?
I don’t have to know what they look like, just be reminded of their heavenly qualities. However, some do have acurate representations depending on when they lived. Not all saints are from Biblical times. Art, figurines, etc. that turn my thoughts to holy things are helpful reminders to me. When I look at a family photo album I am reminded of the love and warmth of family. When I look at religious art I am reminded of the love and forgiveness of Jesus. I am inspired to be a better person. I hope I have explained myself, CeeCee. God Bless.
People who think we’re idolaters are obsessed with images and art; however, an idol is anything you love more than God—any area of your life you do not yield to the lordship of Christ. Idols today are not typically Golden Calves, but the enticements the Egyptian bull god represented: money, sex, and power. There’s definitely a lot of mammon-love; even refusing to give God lordship of your body including fertility shows sex is an idol for many, even those who consider themselves Christian.
In Exodus, God goes on to give very specific directions how to build and decorate the ark, the tent of meeting, the vestments. There are representations of almond branches, serpents, birds, horns, pomegranates—things under heaven!
I love the photos of some of my favorite 20th century saints and beati—Pier Giorgio Frassati, the young and sporty JP2, St Edith Stein, St Maximilian Kolbe, St Gianna Molla, St Padre Pio, St Faustina Kowalska. The beauty God worked in these people shines forth even in photos—no gold iconography and plaster statue sentimentality needed. These are our brothers and sisters in the Lord and we are going to spend eternity with them, too! We are admiring what God worked in these holy heroes…and that is worshipping GOD!
To Michial, and CeeCee, The discussion on Mary and Saint worship has conitnued to be in my thoughts. I would like to share the blog post I used to explain my feelings on this. It is a simplification of the overall topic, but sometimes simple is best: http://marthasorbit.com/dailyblog/2010/12/14/earthly-reminders-of-heavenly-things/ Especially see the line, “It serves as a reminder of who we were, who we are, and who we are to become!”
Martha/Kentuckyliz,
I don’t see Catholics as idol worshippers, I just don’t see the point in all the statues, necklaces, cards, art, etc. You can look out the window and see G~d’s glory everyday by looking at the birds in the sky or flowers in the ground. A smile on someone’s face reminds us of the love and forgiveness of Jesus. I pray that you will look to G~d made reminders rather than man made reminders for his love and faithfulness.
ceecee, I see the glory of God upon each face, each leaf, each sunrise, sunset, etc. I also believe in the Communion of Saints and the ressurection of the dead, hence, pictures of saints etc. are ‘earthly reminders of heavenly things’. I guess we have come full circle. I pray that you continue to see God’s Glory in all, but also come to realize that a saint is not manmade, but instead a true reflection of God’s Glory back to us. God Bless.
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