I agree - I hear far too many “hymns” that are about US, or that are just plain goofy (in my opinion, e.g. “Lord of the Dance”, or “Tis a Gift to be Simple”) But several parishes in our area seem to favor those types of songs, and, unfortunately, they seem to be very popular with the congregation.  I dislike them intently, and it does seem out of place to me with so many beautiful (and more “traditional”) hymns that people always seem to sing with great gusto, such as “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”, “Holy, Holy, Holy”, “Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow”, etc.  I think that I would have had a difficult time keeping a straight face if I was in church and the song that you gave the clip to was being “performed”. (Piano in church is also not one of my favorite instruments…)

Just my opinion, of course…  thanks for the column!

Wow. What an ugly piece of music. I would have gotten up from the pew to slap the music director (and I’m a “woman of the Church”...go figure).

Ugh.

That is painful. It makes me so sad to go to Mass and hear things like this. People just lack education…

My lengthy comment is not spam—please post it!

BOULETBOULET: The comments are posted automatically. You may have used a word that is blocked. Try re-posting but avoid potentially offensive terms.

Hopefully, bizarre is not an offensive word. That’s what this propaganda song (it’s not a hymn) is- bizarre.

I do like that the new translation of the instructions refer to the “Offertory Chant”, “Entrance Chant”, etc. a clear reference to the chants of the Graduale Romanum/Simplex as being the normative use for these occasions, with hymns being available as alternatives (cf. GIRM 74 re 48; Sacrosanctum Concillium 116, 117).  Yes, they are a valid alternative, but not an *equally* valid alternative.
I think the underlaying problem is that the enormous tradition behind the Graduale has been largely ignored.  This tradition provides the catechesis proper to each particular celebration, as well as the diversity of the “affective catechesis” that only chant can provide.  If we aimed to use this as the normative form (or a simplified version in either Latin or English, books for which do exist cf. Musica Sacram 50b., 51) we would’t arrive at such situations as you describe above.
Sure, contemporary original composition still has its place, but if such works are composed from a place of immersive familiarity with the tradition of the Graduale, instead of ignorance or rejection as is typically the case, I suspect that music lacking appropriateness would be a rare occurrence.

We also heard this hymn at the offertory last weekend.  I feel your pain!  We’ll pray for your choir leader, you pray for ours.

You hit on one of my biggest peeves, Jimmy. When the song is a distraction from what is happening at the altar, it really jars me out of the serene worship of God I enter into during Mass. I agree this one is very misplaced. Not appropriate for the Offeratory. Perhaps not appropriate for use at Mass, period. Another practice I have to suffer through at my parish is when a prayer is sung as a part of the Mass yet the lyrics change the words of the prayer. There’s one in particular that gets sung in place of the Agnus Dei that changes “Lamb of God” to “Prince of Peace” and changes the last verse to end with “grant us your peace” instead of just “grant us peace”. Both changes seem to change the fundamental focus of those parts of the prayer. Personally very irritating to me.

Horrid. Bad song. Bad singing. Inappropriate.

Heh, i elbowed my husband during the first reading and asked him afterwards why we had to hear boring songs and homily on sharing our talents with others—I wanted to hear a homily about great wives! ;) ... Guess that was a bad desire- our Mass experience was much better than all this!!  I will add, though, that I went to a niece’s first communion where, DURING the first communions, they sang a personalized song as each received communion as the professinal photographer snapped a keepsake: “(so and so), did you know, that you are very special? You’re so special to us all…” My sentiments were the same then as yours now. Jesus is special, too!

This is why I go to the local Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. The ancient Divine Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St. Basil, whether in chanted Ukrainian or chanted English, are transcendently beautiful, and there is no place in them for trite popular songs or any instrument but the human voice. People should check out the Eastern Catholic Churches in their areas.

I entered the Church in 1980, with no baggage nor attachment to the Tridentine Mass, but a pure love of the Church’s teachings. I eventually came to the conclusion that I could not understand why it was, that if English was wanted in the Mass, that we couldn’t have just moved to the “English side” of the Missal.

The new 2011 Missal is certainly an improvement over the banal translation that was my first exposure to the Church’s worship, but my question is still, why did we stop halfway? Why not go all the way back to the beauty that supported the truth for so long?

Made my skin crawl.  I’m so glad that I go to a traditional Mass where all chanting is done in Latin! :-)

Jimmy,

Regarding “Sing a New Church into Being”, I had a similar discussion a few years ago in our parish with the person in charge of arranging the music, but it was with “The Church of Christ in Every Age”, which was written by a Methodist roughly 40 years ago.  Here is the verse in question:

“The church of Christ in every age,
beset by change but Spirit-led,
must claim and test its heritage
and keep on rising from the dead.”

You can guess my reasons for not liking it.  I voiced my objections but was judged to be reading too much into it.  I am glad to know I am not alone on these kinds of issues.

Could we persuade the bishops to create an Index of Banned Hymns?  This one’s certainly a candidate, and the aforementioned “Sing a New Church.”  And “Ashes.”  Please please please relegate “Ashes” to the ash-bin of history…

Although you may have thoughts like these about the appropriateness of a certain piece of music during Mass at other times, this is a battle waged far and wide across the parishes of the country.  Parish musicians who desire to hold chant up to their congregations (as well as their priests) and say “here is the ideal; with proper catechesis and hard work, it can be achieved” continue to have a long, uphill battle.  While “chant” is now part of the revised GIRM, it will still take a back seat to music like you have posted.

Stephen Peterson is spot on.  I would even go one step farther.

No more Option Four.

Oh, and all hymns that deliberately repeatedly use the word “God” and “God’s” in an unnatural manner, all to avoid the use of the pronouns He, Him and His in reference to the Almighty.

@Margret
Here is Australia we have a list of “recommended” hymns: http://www.catholic.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1653&Itemid=385
—-
@Ronald
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “no more option four”.  There do exist contemporary original compositions that conform 100% to the sacred musical tradition of the Church.  The problem is that such music is very rare to hear and, as a result, people are not familiar with it.  Consequently, people tend to lump all contemporary compositions in the inappropriate category.  But this isn’t the case!  I recently sang in this contemporary version of the Anima Christi with my schola: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB5C6yMBumM

@Margret
Here is Australia the bishops have issued an index of “recommended” hymns.  Yeah, I know, it doesn’t go far enough to make much of a difference, but it’s a step in the right direction.
—-
@Ronald
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “no more option four”.  There do exist contemporary original compositions that conform 100% to the sacred musical tradition of the Church.  The problem is that such music is very rare to hear and, as a result, people are not familiar with it.  Consequently, people tend to lump all contemporary compositions in the inappropriate category.  But this isn’t the case!  I recently sang in Kevin Allen’s contemporary arrangement of the Anima Christi with my schola, which conforms entirely to the sacred tradition.

This kind of thing is what drove me (a brand new convert in 2006) to the Latin Mass. I hate to say it, but the worship of God seemed almost absent.

Thank God I go to the EF with the FSSP! Thank you Bishop Dewane, and God Bless you!

Gross.

I agree with Sarah. My heart aches every time we go to the church that is 5 mn from us, when we are not able to get to our new parish.  We tried to stay there, for our youngest daughter’s sake, but the music drove us away. It was not enhancing the Mass, but drowning it out. After over 40 years of living with abuses, great and small, I am tired, and long for the Mass to be celebrated with solemnity, and for reverence to return to those that attend Mass, and to the music.  Drums, bongos, xylophones,trombones,base guitars…you name it. When the music it done, you feel as if you should clap : ( The choir director says they try to have something for everyone…what in heavens name does that mean? Does she not see the futility in trying to have music for everyone, when what she is supposed to be doing is to be providing an atmosphere of vertical worship, to accompany the greatest prayer on earth, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?  I am constantly dumbfounded by the reasons for such music.

@Judy
Augh!  I’ve heard the “something for everyone” argument before.  The result is wall-to-wall hymns that overpowers the significance of what is happening and makes everything go on forever, while allowing no sacred silence!
I responded with the analogy of comparing the use hymns in the Mass to putting makeup on a woman: a little bit carefully applied highlights her beauty.  A lot turns her into a tart.

Where are our shepherds? Isn’t the Pastor and his Bishop of each parish responsible for all of the aspects in liturgical celebration? Who’s guiding the applications of liturgical music in our Mass? Should we have angst toward the music directors or the ones who should be guiding them? Do we even have the right to be appalled?

@Karen
Unfortunately, bishops and priests are under a lot of pressure not to change the status quo because of expectations that were set by a previous generation.  Being appalled doesn’t fix anything.  The best way to help is to give them as much support as you can.  My suggestions:

The New Translation of the Roman Missal, the one that’s currently getting rolled out, contains in it a suggested setting of the new English text based on a selection of easy traditional chants.  You can say, “hey, this is new.  And it’s easy.  Why don’t we give this a go?”  You can download all this music from the ICEL website.  For free.

If you can negotiate your way past that obstacle, you can then suggest the used of some simplified English renderings of the Graduale for other parts - should be relatively palatable.  There are published books that contain these.

If you can get that far, you can probably rest in comfort, or experiment with some more stuff, depending on how adventurous your choir and priest are.

Ah, yes, the proverbial “youth Mass”  - our “youth ‘Choir’” is just getting better and better - drums are the latest addition to the mix. I make every effort to avoid that. It is very jarring to the ears, and as someone mentioned, the concept of “sacred silence” is a foreign concept to most.  I guess that in these days, most people are accustomed to being constantly bombarded by sounds and noise of every sort at all times - maybe it is too frightening to consider setting that aside to experience some external (and I think it would lead to internal) quiet?

Ouch! It is little wonder that our youth are abandoning the Church.  Lady Gaga puts out better stuff than this, and that is saying something.

As an old Georgia farmer told me one time:  “That thar would gag a buzzard off a gut pile.”

Wow, this is a big “no-no” and I too am a very active “woman in the church.” Jimmy, this is a great start to exploring and explaining the abuses of the “spirit of VII”. Can we look forward to you helping us dispel some of these myths as the 50th anniversary of VII approaches?

I am now past my active days of making the case for appropriate “offertory” preparing of the Gifts music. Older years have their advantages. Reading these posts today brings a suggestion to mind. Since the Liturgy asks for silence at certain places, could we have well-chosen pieces played without voice more frequently. Not only does that induce silence in a noisy world. It also reduces the tension we find with bad theology, inappropriate songs and the rest. The Entrance/Gathering music should be a powerful invitation to pray as community. I also thannkfully no longre have to tolerate the two-verse entrance hymn

I don’t care for songs that worship the congregation instead of the Lord. I do, however, love “Lord of the Dance” (which IS about Christ).

right on, Jimmy!  The only thing that might be worse than the words is the actual music.  That piano is just awful - they really should banish the use of it from the liturgy.

That’s why we go to the early Mass—there is NO music. Uck. Narcissism at its best—celebrating ‘we the people’ at God’s expense.

Since when are we to be praising God & just who is He? The God of this world is: you can fill in the blanks; just don’t mention the True God as a certain “president” thinks that it is himself). How many people entering into the Church will say hello to Jesus & to thank Him for being in the tabernacle waiting for us? How many even know or believe that He is in there & how many even care? We have a pastor on Sundays that will have everybody greet each other at the beginning of the Mass (not the sign of peace) & of course, many have already done this as the volume of useless talk gets very high, BUT, he doesn’t tell us to greet Jesus, the One that we are suppose to be there for. I am grateful that we are not using the new version of the “New American Bible” as they (with the Bishop’s blessing” destroyed the true meaning of Proverbs 31 (maybe the “music” director was thinking about this when he came up with such a horrible ditty). This almost makes me want to go back to the funeral music of the Latin rite Mass. +JMJ+

Ugh. The only thing I would’ve taken away from that Mass was the hideousness of that song. I would remember it much longer than the readings or the homily. And that’s just not right.

CATHOLIC
WOMEN

I lost my dreams
I held them so long-
While singing my babies
A lullaby song

I lost my dreams
Each one I did pick-
Perhaps when all night
Up with children so sick

I lost my dreams
So articulated clear-
Making soups, homemade breads
For my family so dear

I lost my dreams
That would show off my charms-
Instead spent much time
In my husband’s strong arms

I lost my dreams
To seek fortune and fame-
Probably crushed
When I knelt in His Name

I lost my dreams
Giving blood tears and love-
But those are the dreams
Catholic women are of.

This kind of thing is paternalism at it’s worst. “Oh these poor women are hard at work supporting their (implied lazy) husbands and (hopefully very few) children. They can’t think for themselves at all and we have to make them feel ‘appreciated’ by putting stupid sounding jingles into the mass. That way they will continue being our good little slaves.”

It’s kind of funny actually, trying to be all “inclusive” is the best way to make someone feel excluded and used. How about instead focusing on worshiping God…that is, after all, what you are there fore.

Ironically, the point of all three readings and the Psalm is supposed to be that the wise Christian uses God’s gifts in a way that multiplies them and spreads them to others, not that women are cool. The good wife in this case becomes the hardworking Bride, and men’s situation is being shown through a woman.

To make it all about “women are cool” is to miss the point. To say the least.

I’d never heard this song.  And I hope I don’t hear it again!

People don’t distinguish between inspirational music and worship music.  We long for inspirational, we don’t hear it in our daily lives, so we play it at Mass.  Big mistake.  Lots of beautiful songs being played at my parish that do have their place in the life of a Christian. But at Mass, we sing to and about God.

You’re correct, Jennifer, at least in my way of thinking. There are many great “praise and worship” bands, and musicians, and their music is a staple of youth gatherings, youth Masses, etc.  I enjoy a lot of that music and like to listen to it - but much of it is probably categorized as inspirational music and good to listen to. And people don’t make time for it in their daily lives - I have a number of these artists on my ipod and do listen to it. I also have many sacred music recordings and chant recordings, and like to listen to those.  I would like to have fewer “us” oriented songs at Mass (like, “zero” of them) and the songs that I mentioned in my earlier comment set a much better tone for Mass (again, in my opinion.) Someone above (Monica) said that they like “Lord of the Dance” and it is about Christ.  That may be true - it is an example of a melody that just doesn’t do it for me, especially at Mass.

I do like the way you put it, Jennifer - these songs do have their place in the life of a Christian.  But the life of a Christian should not solely be the 45 to 60 minutes a week that I would say most people who attend Sunday Mass spend in church (and possibly the only time they would consider exposing themselves to music with other than secular themes, but I don’t want to be judgmental, just to say that it is probably more the case than not.)

And others mentioned that not all “modern” music fits that “happy, clappy” mold - this is true. Visit the website of the Corpus Christi Watershed - such beautiful and *sacred* music that is being composed in these times. Kudos to them for their efforts, I pray that it would take root and grow in more parishes!

Here’s a new “prayer of the faithful”:
“For the men of the Church: that we may be more welcoming to them, and not try to drive them out of the Church, let us pray to the LORD…”
But no doubt some “man” hater will insist that we change the term “men” in that prayer to “humans” or something.

Oh dear Lord - not another tepid, vapid, ridiculous ‘liturgical’ song. I ‘think’ I could have stood this if we were singing specifically about Mary - but even THAT would have been with my holding my nose. There are SOOOOO many beautiful hymns of the church WHY oh WHY do we Catholics settle for this stuff????? I spent 35 years in the Anglican Communion. Now, those people KNOW THIER MUSIC!  If there is one thing I hope can happen from all the Ordinariate seeding from that Communion - it’s that better church music gets into our Catholic Masses!!!

Amen, Diane P., AMEN!

I agree music and liturgy should be to praise the LORD not each other.  Isn’t it during the general intercessions/prayer of the faithful is where such special intentions should be?

Reminds me of those who say “Oh, I didn’t get anything out of Mass today”. I respond, “You’re not supposed to.  You were supposed to be giving something at Mass not receiving”.

I did not think it so bad.  I agree NOT at Mass but it would be appropriate at a Novena to Mary, Mother of Jesus who is an example to all women. Women are an important part of bring up children, besides birthing them.
As to the piano, some smaller churches cannot afford an organ. I have heard good organists and bad organists, good pianists and bad.

@Hermit-talker: I agree..with music without lyrics. In one church I attended the organist just played beautiful music while people received communion. It helped in meditating on the Eucharist instead of listening to shuffling feet.

On the personal level, as old as I am, I still do not like chanting in any language and some contemporary music that I have heard is beautiful.

Good thought, the Anglicans can bring some great music to us. AS TO getting and giving at Mass it is both and. We surrender ourselves to the Trinity, commit to the Church as Christ’s Body and we grow in His likeness. “He must increase, I must decrease ” is a good motto from John the Baptist.

I fell in love with the Taize chants. They are so meditative, mantra-like and wonderful at communion to avoid carrying a book up to receive. I also took part in the Great War of getting the time for five minutes before MASS for silence, possible soft music but no practice, choir rehearsal. We used be afraid to cough, then we went wild with chattiness. Protestant congregations have five minutes of perfecnt silence except for soft music. I lost that battle, I did get my lsat pastor to make the announcements before Mass began, before the opening music. Sadly so many were leaving at or during communion. A horrible habit.

Content aside - the music is TERRIBLE.  Do you _see_ why the Church’s traditional (and never abandoned, save by liberals and hippy-revisionists) approach to music is not only better, but liturgically safer?

I think you’re right.

Here we go again. Who has the power to stop this? Yes, indeed the local bishop. Upon hearing this he should go directly to that parish and ask to meet the pastor and head of the liturgy committe. Then he should send a letter to the parish to be read at the following sunday masses, explaining his reasons to halt this ‘cheap imitation’ of sacred catholic hyms. Who approved this? It just goes to show you, some priest can care less about the proper form of the liturgy. Bishops, do your job!!!!!!

From another “woman of the Church”, I think it’s really inappropriate.  Just listening to it feels profane.

Now I have to ask:  Did you record this during mass?  Just kind of funny to think of somebody fiddling with their device during mass.  :-D

I think its weird. Seems out of place.

P.S. I think most music at mass is awful.  A lot of it sounds like banal hippie folk music.

I just placed burning hot embers on my ear drums to lessen the pain of listening to that song.

Our choir leader doen’t have a clue but, at least we didn’t get this responsorial last week.

In the ‘70s, the Boomers were handed a golden opportunity to “sing a new Church into being” by recreating it in the image and likeness of themselves. We won’t escape the Haugen/Haas/Schutte iron triangle they’ve imprisoned liturgical music in until the biological solution sweeps the last of them out of the chancery offices and off of the various parish committees where they hold sway.

Until then, I’m going to try to actually give thanks for Marty Haugen…because at least he didn’t produce *this* atrocity.

The celebration of Holy Mass is the offering of adoration, praise, and thanksgiving to God for the outpouring of His great Love (the Body and Blood of His only- begotten Son,Jesus the Christ) for the salvation of our souls and not the self- glorification of the Congregation. These “we and me” Hymns only point to bad Catechesis in understanding our relationship with,in,and through God who is first in all things. The Offertory is not the place for such, a processional or recessional for a feast of Holy Women, female Doctors of the Church, Virgins, maybe but hardly the Offertory.

Wow, how incredibly horrid, and theologically wrong.

Personally, I like the Adoramus site for music.  Not much hippy-dippy stuff there.

Jimmy, I think your best bet is to find the nearest Latin Mass and attend it. The nonsense that you have related (and much more like it) sprung up in full view of the overseers of the Vernacular mass. This suggests that their understanding of the mass is faulty. You’ve hear it before: We believe as we pray. Jimmy, get thee to a Latin Mass.

How about a good song about Mary?

Oh Mary, such a humble woman.
Oh Mary, she obeyed the Lord.
Oh Mary, we will make you into a goddess.
And though you called Christ, “My Lord, My SAVIOR”
We will say you never sinned.
And though the Bible says you remained a virgin UNTIL the birth of Jesus,
We will say you remained a virgin forever.
And by this way we can rob the Lord Jesus of his glory.
And Sweet Mary, we can worship you instead.

@Peter: “As an old Georgia farmer told me one time:  “That thar would gag a buzzard off a gut pile.”
  That old Cracker had a better sense of good taste and respect for the Holy and Divine in Church than most of the musical culture vultures who swooped down on the Church’s sad sacks who were calling the shots when it came to picking what kind of liturgical nonsense the faithful were supposed to engage in zombie-like regurgitation and just go along with it because they were ever so cleverly gulled into thinking that it “must’ve” been approved by Rome back in the late 60’s and 70’s.
  Who knows, maybe it was. After all, Pope Paul never recovered from the horrible blow-back he received in the wake of all the ever-so-sensitive souls’ sudden displays of “frank” albeit not so mutually exchanged “dialogue when “Humanae Vitae” was released. So when after the Pope who had lost his heart n’ step retreated into a long shell-like existence for the final decade of his sorry reign, the demons of gross mediocrity had a ball.
  The Episcopalians somewhat modernized their Book of Common Prayer, but what they wre left with, despite all the consternations of the conservatives, was still by far a superior product than what we were left with in the Novus ODOROUS “liturgy” foisted upon the sheeple in the pewples.
  Let’s not be overly surprised if the Anglicans who arrived here have second, third and as many doubts as they’re going to be force fed servings of as much Novus Odorous Liturgous by our own in-house liberal experimentorturers.
  I can just see it now, a whole flock of former Anglicans wanting to become former Catholics to become newly reverted Anglicans afflicted by buyers’ remorse fleeing out our doors no matter how often we remind them “WE HAVE THE REAL PRESENCE.” There’s sure’nuff gonna be a lot of Anglican Rite Catholic Churches, but not a whole lotta former Anglicans filling the pews of “regular rank n’ file” Catholic parishes.
  Mark Twain once joked, “First God made the idiot for practice. Then he really got serious and created school committees.” One can only imagine how really serious God got when he allowed the creation of lay-dominated parish liturgical committees. Naaaah, He probably stepped out to check on another human caused disaster and Satan filled in as the “substitute teacher.”

@Robert H.: What you express here is a fundamental (albeit common) misunderstanding of what Catholics believe about Mary.
***
Mary was a humble woman, obedient to God.  Catholics do NOT believe she is a goddess; we do NOT worship her.  We do, however, offer her appropriate reverence, because, you know, God did first.  And yes, she was kept free from the stain of original sin: don’t you think it would be kind of, um, impossible for God to dwell within a person who had the stain of *any* sin on her soul?

@RMMT….  I appreciate your response and that you were very polite, despite my sarcasm.

I was raised Catholic, but have been born again, saved, and rescued by the Lord Jesus Christ.  I am not making fun of the Mary of the Bible at all.  Only the over-honored, false Mary of Catholicism.

Mary in the Bible is only mentioned about 12 times.  She was a humble servant of God.  She said to Jesus, “my Lord, my Savior” indicating that she too needed a savior.  The bible says “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.” If Mary had to be sinless to give birth to Christ, then her mother, and grandmother, and so on all would have to have been sinless to give birth to each daughter.

The Magisterium has declared Mary to be Co-Redemptrix with Christ.  Even though she obeyed God and gave physical birth to the Son of God, she did not do any of the work Christ did to take upon himself our sin and take upon himself the punishment for our sin.

The old testament says “you shall not have any graven images nor bow down before them”.  So even though a Catholic may not be worshipping Mary, many still bow down before her graven image, which is a sin.
The Bible says God made us for his own glory.  And God said, “I am a jealous God, and will share my glory with no one.”

When we bow down at the foot of the cross and admit we are hopeless sinners, deserving hell, and there is nothing at all that we can do to earn our way into heaven, then we have taken the first step.  The Bible says, “there is none who is good, no, not one” and “all our righteousness is as filthy rags.”

Then we must ask the Lord Jesus to save us, based entirely upon HIS work.  We can take NO credit ourselves.  Instead of having any hope in ourselves to be good enough to enter heaven, we must put all our hope on Jesus, knowing that he paid our entire sin debt when he was beaten, whipped, and executed.  God designed the plan of salvation this way so that NO ONE could take any credit except for Him.  “For salvation is by GRACE (the undeserved kindness God offers us), through FAITH, and that (the faith) not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, lest any man should boast.

It is a surrender.  We admit that God is perfect and a perfect judge.  He must punish ALL sin.  (Jesus said, “all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.”)  We are deserving of punishment.  There is nothing good we can do to work off the punishment.  God put the punishment on His Son, so that justice could be done and that He would be glorified in this.  This gift, already paid for, is available free to you and me.  It is all of God’s doing and He will receive all the credit for it.  We must admit this and receive the free gift by putting our hope in the Lord Jesus Christ alone to “pay off” our sin.

Heaven won’t be full of good people (there are no good people according to the bible), but rather sinners who knew they needed a Savior and who trusted Christ entirely to save them.

When you call on the Lord to be saved, then He will send the Holy Spirit who will then inhabit you, and your eyes will be opened to spiritual truth.  The Bible says nothing about a church having to interpret scripture for us.  Instead it says that the Holy Spirit removes the spiritual blinders from our eyes and lets us understand the Scriptures.  The Bible says that “satan blindeth the eyes of the whole world”, only the Holy Spirit can remove those blinders. 

Have you read the new testament?  You will be surprised at the power and simple truth of it.  The Book of Romans is incredible. 

You will also see that 95% of Catholicism is mentioned nowhere in the Bible.  This is all distraction sewn by the Enemy to keep people from realizing the simple Gospel truth and being saved.

Feminist coven in this church.

Hi Robert

Ummm.  You need to do more research.  The claims you make against Catholicism have been explained away about a gazillion times on blogs such as this.

Mary herself calls God her saviour.  The Church says nothing different.  What differentiates Mary from the rest of is is that in her case God’s grace is prevenient. She was saved from sin before it had been committed.

If ALL have sinned, then what about Jesus?  He was human too.

The Magisterium has not declared Mary to be co-redemptrix, although it has been discussed.  Even if it does declare her such, this does not mean she is divine, just that she cooperated in Christ’s saving mission.  She did, after all, agree to give birth to Him.

God, Himself, commands graven images to be made for the Ark of the Covenant.  The command against graven images is not absolute, apparently.  We are NOT, however, to worship such images as deities.  Catholics don’t.

Hope I’m not feeding a troll.

@Robert H
Actually, mate, I think you’ll find that the Magisterium *hasn’t* defined Mary as co-redemtrix with Christ.  And the reason it hasn’t been defined is because of the potential for the type of misunderstanding that you have demonstrated.
In any case, if your argument against Catholicism is purely based on the fact that certain things are not mentioned in the Bible, then you’re going to need to make a case defending sola scriptura mate. (cf. Jn 21:25).

Just lost an hour’s work replying.
1. The angel greeted MARY “hail” used three of four times in OT to refer to the coming MESSIAH. “Full of Grace” in Greek means what it says GOD filled her full of grace.Prepared for the Incarnation, no need to go back a bit more, JESUS came from DAVID’s line, an adulterous murderedr so HE would have been tainted with that and the other scoundrels in HIS Matthew genealogy. MARY rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOUR with Elizabeth saviour in Hebrew means HEALER, not necessarily needing JESUS to forgive in herr case despite the misuse of all are sinners.  That is clear from the “Full of grace” and common sense. The Church is guided by the HOLY SPIRIT, so meditation, reflection, sermons, discussion names of churches and the memory of the people led the POPE to decide with all that in 1856 to declare her the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION. We use all that process to decide and not rattle off like all protestants and evangelicals to pronounce imfallibly on false, fake, lying interpretation and skipped pages of the Bible. THE BIBLE does not say it has EVERYTHING - even John said the whole world cound not contain all that JESUS said and did. It was CATHOLIC bishops in COUNCIL who decided the 27 NT books of the NT. St Augustine said I believe in the BIBLE because of the Church, not the Church because of the Bible which was taught and preached and used in MASS, the breaking of the bread long before it was finished being written and then decided in Council.
CATHOLIC means UNIVERSAL, Jesus sent tne apostles to baptise the whole world. Catholic. As RH noted the Bible is full of refrences to all of our TEACHING, MAGISTERIUM in Latin. JOHN 20 shows Jesus breathing, SPIRIT is ruah in HEBREW, Breath - life-giving in English and told them to forgive and retain sins is one example that protestants seem to forget except for soeme High Church groups. Luther and company were not as loosened from the Mother Ship as their later followers and some reformers such as CALVIN and KNOX who followed him.  To add to RH again, the Church uses the word mediatress/rix by analogy, she said yes to the invitation so she was insturment to have Him come as MEDIATOR, the only one as HEBREWS tells us. SAME as Paul telling the Church at CORINTH that he was their father in Christ, “I begot you” and similarly JESUS is the shepherd but a man who cannot read the BIBLE properly as noted in my post above, calls himself pastor without being a heretic; so also a Doctor which is TEACHER and a man who is called Mr or LORD, latin Magister does not contradict JESUS who was stressing the UNLTIMATE GOODNESS, LORDSHIP AND TEACHING AUTHORITY and did not want those titles applied as Hitler, the old USSR and Gadaffi and other dictators applied that to their ultimate authority to suppress human dignity and destory churches the way your lot tries to do. “We know best so stop your beliefs which come from the Devil.” Arrogant ignorance. MARY also told in her MAGNIFICAT with Elizabeth that ALL GENERATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESSED” Do you and your ilk do that or do you just accuse CATHOLOICS and contradict the BIBLE and so undermine her SON’S SAVING WORK, her role and HIS HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH. We never claim to be sinless but we never act toward others as if they are headed for hell and we agree with them as far as we can. The POPE begins his MASS as all of us do with confession of his sins as we all do. AT CANA Mary told JESUS they were short of wine, HE objected at first my HOUR has not yet come. She said DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU. The HOUR was mentioned by JOHN again at the cross, she was offered as Mother to John and he as son to her. Very profound theology. MAKING 150 gallons of wine at the end of a small village wewdding feast made no sense but the ABUNDANCE of WINE being poured out from the OLD TESTAMENT prediction of the MESSIAH’s coming makes a lot of sense.
FINALLY THIS POST IS ABOUT LITURGICAL MUSIC. Unless you repent, confess and admit error the author of the article will kick you off for trying to hijack a CATHOLIC site and topic for your upchuch. PEACE and come on back home prodigal son who is sincerely astray but still loved.

ROBERT H THE author threatened another post-er for using another topic on this NCR space for anti-catholic bashing. i lost two replies to you already today, That song is sacriligious, sick, unworthy and is NOT catholic teaching. I will ask MR AKIN to keep you on here until you read all the posts, read and reflect on my longer one if I re[-write it a third time. MEANTIME behave, obey JESUS and LOVE your neighbour, do not lie, slander, twist or hijack this site.

I myself am contemplating leaving the parish I currently attend for an older original Latin Rite Mass being said not too far from me, but still located at an inconvenient distance away… New translation or not, I fear the Novus Ordo won’t change much in its reform, and the abuse that’s crept in will continue unabated. They abused the mass then, and they’ll likely continue to abuse the mass after Advent.

The problem has always been that people’s hearts and ideologies are at fault. Vatican II failed to address any of this, proposing a man-made solution to a spiritual problem, and only unwittingly served to give the problem room to expand, and for the past 50 years that’s precisely what happened. The Church needs to abandon false ecumenism, especially with the secular state, stop compromising her mission, take a step backwards and train all current seminarians in the old Latin Rite so that new priests can introduce new parishioners to the old rite and use it often and phase out the novus ordo, also the Church must consecrate Russia specifically to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by the Pope in union with all the world’s bishops under the Pope’s direct command (excommunicate those who do not obey, or rather they’d be automatically excommunicated), bring back the Inquisition and set them loose on the entire Church. Become intolerent of secularism and worldliness. Hate it, and purge it out!

End useless homilies and spend some time teaching practical apologetics to children and laity. Add another mandatory extra hour to Sunday/Saturday Mass beforehand or afterwards that parishioners MUST attend. Have the priest teach them, or play a DVD lecture. Anything. Just force them to learn!

End the practice of handing out confirmations to young people who do not accept the entire faith. Force them to attend apologetics and Church history courses. Give them an exam to see if they know the basics. If they fail the exam, they don’t get confirmed until they pass. If they pass the exam, ask them as to whether they truly believe these things or not. They can have knowledge, yet not believe. If not, bar them from confirmation. Tell them if they ever change their mind in the future they can always come back. End the stupid idea that confirming them to keep them in Church will somehow do them any good. It won’t, it’ll just be some old fashioned ritual. It’s time we started taking our sacraments seriously, espcially that of the Eucharist. If you’re going to continue throwing these precious and sacred things to the swine, don’t act surprised when the world assumes that the things we hold sacred are only fit for swine.

Robert H:
When you got down on your knees to pray to a televised image of your favorite televangelist, did the thought occur to you that he might be a sinner—or dead?  (The people who run the sermons of the late D. James Kennedy have left his church in protest to its current pastor.)
Catholics don’t worship Mary; I wonder about Protestants and their televangelists, though.

Robert H on Friday, Nov 18, 2011 2:14 AM (EDT)said:

“Only the over-honored, false Mary of Catholicism.”

“TO
MEN
OF
GOOD
WILL”

There can be no peace
If not of good will.
There can be no race
For those who stand still.

Only she -
Full of grace
Was the miracle
Set in place.

To magnify
Her soul prepared
By God, her spirit -
Never ensnared.

“Blessed art thou…”
Gabriel hailed,
And at that moment
The enemy railed.

For he remembered
In the garden free
Between him and a woman
Enmity.

But who the woman?
God did not tell,
Then Gabriel’s “Ave”
Shook the depths of Hell.

And Satan screamed,
Turned on a wing
To offer some peace
And will good to a King.

“Peace.” Herod said,
“And yes good will…
I’ve a right to my reign,
If some Innocents I kill!”

ROBERT H ###############The Bible does not say faith only scripture only, Luther and the reformers invented that and he tried to dump JAMES which says FAITH and GOOD works are needed- and HEBREWS because they contradicted his thesis. St Augustine said he believed in the Bible because of his Church and not vice versa.A Council of bishops decided what was BIBLE or not so can you really, really, really trust them? JOHN said the whole nworld could not contain all the books writtem about what JESUS did and said, the NT you know could fit into a Sunday newspaper ?? many timss over. WE trust the HOLY SPIRIT guided the Church as HE did the people who wrote it so it is free of theological error.
############ AS to an add to idolatry as answered above corectly. The 6th century CHURCH ddealt with this and settled it, dug up again at the REFORMATION and ISLAM still misses the point. They prayed and discussed and decided; JESUS WAS EIKON, IMAGE of the UNSEEN GOD was the GOD-MAN who said HE WHO SEES ME SEES THE FATHER and was so human looking and had to go potty and wipe every day, it was okay to make icons which were honoured but not adored. The Greek words for worship are three-fold latria for adoration of GOD, dulia for honouring, reverencing the saints and hyperdulia for MARY who agreed to bear JESUS and said YES all the way to the CROSS.

Has anyone ever noticed that most of the committees in our parishes are dominated by woman. Men seem seem to be left out of the decision making
of our parishes. I have nothing against woman but it would nice to admit
more males to the table

I think I’m a little disturbed that the overwhelming attitude seems to be:
1. Parish music is Bad
2. Therefore abandon parish

Sure, the extraordinary form has its place: somewhere to stop and revive when the hegemonous culture within the ordinary form seems overwhelming; a place to learn about the recent history of our liturgy and take note where the hermeneutic of discontinuity has taken precedence of that of continuity.  But it isn’t supposed to be an escape.  A place of refuge, yes, a place of abandonment, no.  God allowed the Jews to be taken to exile in Babylon as punishment for their sins.  He didn’t intend for them to settle down.

As much as I find consolation from sacred music composed within the tradition and desolation from music that springs from the hermeneutic of discontinuity, surely the better objective is to see Gregorian Chant, once more, as part of the ordinary experience of the Catholic faithful.  This an only come about if people start telling others about the good that it has to offer.

In my experience, most music “ministers” in a parish are well meaning people, just a little misled.  They’ve been told by people who have authority in the church that certain things have changed and we now do things better than we once did.  All they need is to be gently guided to rethink that position - a hint here, a suggestion there.  Maybe they just need to be asked to give something a go - after all, it doesn’t hurt to try something.  And if that something has been prepared *well* and goes down well, maybe it might reoccur more often.  And, then, maybe a few more things might change.

*** Local parish life is the basis of Christian community.  As much as we might not like it our parishes need us, even if they aren’t very good at making us feel that way.  Without strong parishes, the Church will struggle to weather the increasingly secular climate we are being forced to live in.

So, sure, take a breather at an extraordinary form Mass from time to time.  Soak it up.  Learn from it.  Then take it back to your parish and allow what you’ve soaked up to be squeezed out again into the local community.  Yes, it’s changing things slowly, one tiny little bit at a time, but we are doing God’s work, not our own.  If we pray and trust in Him we can expect a miracle.

I think I’m a little disturbed that the overwhelming attitude seems to be: Parish music is bad; therefore abandon parish. Sure, the extraordinary form has its place: somewhere to stop and revive when the hegemonous culture within the ordinary form seems overwhelming; a place to learn about the recent history of our liturgy and take note where the hermeneutic of discontinuity has taken precedence of that of continuity.  But it isn’t supposed to be an escape.  A place of refuge, yes, a place of abandonment, no.  God allowed the Jews to be taken to exile in Babylon as punishment for their sins.  He didn’t intend for them to settle down. As much as I find consolation from sacred music composed within the tradition and desolation from music that springs from the hermeneutic of discontinuity, surely the better objective is to see Gregorian Chant, once more, as part of the ordinary experience of the Catholic faithful.  This an only come about if people start telling others about the good that it has to offer. In my experience, most music “ministers” in a parish are well meaning people, just a little misled.  They’ve been told by people who have authority in the church that certain things have changed and we now do things better than we once did.  All they need is to be gently guided to rethink that position - a hint here, a suggestion there.  Maybe they just need to be asked to give something a go - after all, it doesn’t hurt to try something.  And if that something has been prepared *well* and goes down well, maybe it might reoccur more often.  And, then, maybe a few more things might change. *** Local parish life is the basis of Christian community.***  As much as we might not like it our parishes need us, even if they aren’t very good at making us feel that way.  Without strong parishes, the Church will struggle to weather the increasingly secular climate we are being forced to live in. So, sure, take a breather at an extraordinary form Mass from time to time.  Soak it up.  Learn from it.  Then take it back to your parish and allow what you’ve soaked up to be squeezed out again into the local community.  Yes, it’s changing things slowly, one tiny little bit at a time, but we are doing God’s work, not our own.  If we pray and trust in Him we can expect a miracle.

I totally agree, Jimmy. The focus should be on God and not the human community during Mass, especially the Offeratory Hymn right before the Eucharist. Also, this takes a step further by introducing gender political undertones. The Mass is not the place to be making social/political statements.

I can say the same thing about the exchange of peace. Mass should be 100% communing with God. We can exchange peace with each other before or after Mass.

Paul might need to write a new letter to the “Corinthians”.  :-)

Lack of understanding is a podium for Satan’s erosive ideas…

What do I think? I think this hymn was very beautiful and engaging. “Women of the Church . . . how rich is your legacy.
Women of the Church . . . how great is your faith.
Women of the Church . . . well-springs of integrity.
Lead us in the ways of peace.” As a woman this hymn was inspiring and reminded me of my spiritual gifts that the Lord has blessed me with and made me thankful to God for all that I have in my life. I think this hymn can inspire both genders to appreciate how God works through all of us. Maybe for some it is distracting and for others it draws them closer to God? I did not find the hymn to have any political undertones.

“Rita”,
you may enjoy singing about how wonderful you are, but the reason that Islam is gaining so many male converts in this country is that (whatever else you may say about Islam)  it doesn’t try to make men feel guilty about being men.

That comment is so unfair Don S: Islam is so male-dominated that they totally control women and see them as chattel as they were in the OLD TESTAMENT whose cultural roots for the HEBREW People are the exact same as where ISLAM was spawned and developed.

HermitTalker,
I didn’t say that I approved of Islam, just that the reason it attracts so many men is that it treats men the opposite way that feminist Catholicism treats men.

DanS; I did not intend to make a judgment about you, just commented on your suggesttion. The feminist Catholic women are torn between the ultural push for power for them so ordination is a common plea and some women were and still are treated disrespectfully by clergy.

And, “HermitTalker,” feminist Catholics constantly heap verbal abuse on men.

Agree iT cuts both ways. FEMINISM is a precious Gift from GOD, and as with all His gifts we can abuse or destroy or misnterpret it. The original feminist leaders in the culture there were “un-redeemed”  like most male leaders- no grace, concern for the community and the sacred dignity of each person. Bush and his neocon handlers with Iraq and Obama with his war on the unborn and marriage.  Cutting social services for the children and elderly to balance the budget while the real crooks keep their jobs and bonuses. Mary’s Magnificat is a warning to them all- the mighty will be put down and the little ones lifted up. IF it does not happen now, it will be in the final Judgment- it has happened now but borrowing from China and paying off the scammers and taking from the middle and little people is postponing the final day of reckoning

To Robert H:
If you want to know what role Mary plays in the Catholic Church do a Google search for the word Gebirah.  In the Davidic kingdoms the king could have many wives and concubines, but he had only one mother.  One of the duties of the Gebirah, the Queen Mother, was as an intercessor between the king and the people.
Christ is a King in the line of David, and Mary is His Queen Mother, His Gebirah.

GREGb Great point developed by Dr Scott Hahn, perhaps the first to do so.
Sadly, the Enemy is so deeply intertwined with the divided Church he still does what he does in Revelation 11;19, the last verse through the end of 12. The Ark of the Covenant appears in heaven, Mary was the ark, see in LUKE the angels said the Holy Spirit will overshadow you, the shekinah the cloud over the ark in the desert. Chapter 12 shows the Dragon chasing Mary and her Boy Child and then the Church, those who believe in the Christ. Attack the Queen Mother and one also attachks and undermines the Saving Work of The King.  To quote Pogo as far as the Church is concerned “We have met the enemy and he is us.” The evangelicals are so ignlorantly vicious in their misinterpretation of the Bible they think they are honouring Jesus by drone-bombing HIS Church. Mainline Protestant leaders have voted themselves so far left they have voted themselves “off the island”. Not all ordinary Protestants have gone along, witness the dissenting Anglican/Episcopalians. and not all evangelicals use selective Bible verses and fake interpretations to act and speak uncharitably toward Catholics and their Church.  Until it stops and we are fully ONE as Jesus prayed in JOHN 17, the crafty Satan-Devil-Dragon laughs all the way to his BANK of sickness, evil and divisiveness in His Enemy JESUS’ CHURCH.

GregB: Great point developed originally I think by Dr Scott Hahn. Sadly as Pogo said back in the 60s “We have met the Enemy and he is us.” The Dragon-Satan-Devil has a great party everytime Evangelicals and others attack the Catholic Church. To refer to Scott Hahn again Revelation 11:19, last verse through the end of 12 we see Mary honoured. She is the Ark of the Covenant- not Scott’s original idea, the Angel Gabriel said to explain her invitation and her question; the Most High will overshadow you. Reference back to the cloud that overshadowed, shekinah, the Ark in the desert which contained God as it were and later placed in the Temple, seated between the two angels on the seat of reconciliation where the Commandments were kept. Verse 19 says the Ark of the Covenant, why this verse was not the beginning of 12 beats me, those are artificially divided by translators back therhie’  chap 12 shows the Dragon chasing the Pregnant Woman and her Boy Child and when born He and his Church, that is those who accepted Him as the Christ were pursued, the d
Devil SPEWS out water to try to have her carried away.
The mainline Churches today have voted themselves “off the island” with their Leftist social sexual agenda not all their regular their members agree and not evangelicals spend their thme trying to “convert” Catholics with false and selective use of the Bible. They all rattle off their little list of objections and do not realise how wrong they are about what we teach or what the Bible actually says if it is read.

Excellent food for thought. You don’t hear music with those words at the Latin Mass.  However, the Holy Father’s wish is for the two Masses to become one.  The New Mass must try harder to please God and less effort on pleasing ourselves.  The Latin Mass must realise God loves all of us.

GregB Good point, developed originally by Dr Scott Hahn I presume he is the one from whom I first heard it. He also was the first for me to show a marvelous truth from Revelation 11;19 which logically belongs to all of 12. Background: an old point. The Angel Gabriel explained to Mary in her questioning about the Incarnation that the Holy Spirit would overshadow her- same word used for the cloud over the Ark going from Sinai to the Temple eventually, shekinah to indicate God’s presence. Scott points out in verse 19 The \Ark of the Covenant appeared in heaven, Mary obviously, and in ch 12 the Dragon, who is Satan/Devil tries to drown her with water “spewing” from his mouth, chases her and her Boy Child and Him when He was born and those who believed in the Christ.
Mainline Protestant leaders, not all their members, have voted themselves off the island with their Leftist agenda(unless the Holy Spirit is in favour of same-gender acting people as lay and clergy and abortion as a God-given right). Evangelicals, again not all of them spend their time and cash and energy attacking the Mother Church with mkisunderstandings of our teachings and refusing to believe obvious Bible Truth; this is my body/blood, John 20 whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven and Peter getting a new name, biblical idea for a new role ROCK on whose faith in Christ’s divinity was the basis for that title and so on. The Dragon laughs all the way to his Bank of Hatred, Divisiveness and Evil to see the ONENESS which Christ prayed for in JOHN 17 being undermined by people who think they are doing Jesus’ work a big favour.

I think if we’re going to sing songs that remind me of a sad knock-off of a Danny Elfman tune, I’d much rather we cough up the bucks for Danny to write the real thing. At least he has real musicality and witty writing.  (/sarcasm)

That song you posted. . .it’s the liberal, modernist heretics (LMH’s) fighting back from the piano-trenches. We will outlive them and that is how we will win.

I am the choir and I want you to look at me
My own heart’s desire and you are my company.
Hear me I sing beautifully, just look at my guitar
Answer me dutifully, you know who you are.

The altar’s but an image, yet I am really here.
The mass is but a vestige, I want you to hear
my voice that is so pleasing, my words are none but mine.
The choice that is so easing to the herd that I define.

Of course this is for God, whoever He may be.
I am but his servant, if you focus on just me.

Failed to answer twice today. Dr S Hahn was first to make that point GregB, He also showed that in REV. 11:19 and to the end of 12, MARY is shown as Ark of the Covenant - why verse 19 was not included in cha 12 beats me. The Dragon chases her while pregnant, tries to drown her “spewing” water from his mouth then chases her Boy-Child and His followers, ending chap 12. Earlier scholars pointed out that a cloud overshadowed the Ark, shekinah, in the desert is the word used by Gabriel to Mary explaining her worry that the Holy Spirit will overshadow you, same word she is THE ARK of the COVENANT JESUS becoming the place where GOD rested in the Aark, replacing the Old Covenant with its 10 Commandments with Jesus’ NEW COVENANT and His new commandment of LOVE and the BEATITUDES.

Sadlt those evangelicals who attack us viciously, not all do and not all viciously, are doing the Dragon’s work by attacking JESUS’ PEOPLE HIS CHURCH with false, twisted quotes and skipped pages of the NT. Mainline Protestant leaders, not all their people, have long since voted themselves off the island with their LEFTIST social agenda. The Dragon laughs all the way to his BANK OF HATE/DIVISIVENESS as the TRUE to the fullness of Faith is growled and nibbled at by the Evangelicals and the others are way off- unless the Holy Spirit favours same gender unions, abortion, and active homosexuals - M and F-  as ordained clergy

Every time I hear the general intersession in the modern format, I wonder why the author thinks an omniscient Holy Spirit needs detailed instructions.

<a >Hank’s Eclectic Meanderings</a>

The woman singing the ‘Women of the Church’ song has a very deep voice :)

It’s also comforting to know that ‘the great and the good’ have to put up with as much liturgical nonsense as us…

Hank: No one who attends Mass or prays regularly thinks that we just admit that HE knows everything and we just punch in our coded card to remind Him we are here. HE knows that before we punch in. HE has given us the power and privilege and Jesus told us with down-home examples to knock and it shall be opened and the story of the Judge who was pestered by the widow as examples of how we humans must intercede. WE are not changing God’s mind as such, HE knows ahead of time which healing will be granted and whose baby will live or die or which house will be destroyed by fire and who will escape and who will make it out of the hospital alive. Our prayers are mysteriously ingtertwined with that, which is why we also pray and say YOUR WILL BE DONE.
AS to the GENERAL INTERCESSIONS- the prayers we offer for Government to care for all human life, for the end of war and the end of famine, we are caught up in HUMAN MINDS to be turned by the prompting of Grace, that insane decisions not be made to hurt the human community by war, terror, condoms and abortion to solve problems but more secure and fair uses of God’s earth and His gifts to solve the problems of famine, poverty, hunger and medical facilities so BIG UGLY BROTHER GOVERNMENTS like the USA at the moment will not “solve” the imaginary “over-population problem. THEN we are invited to expand our private navel gazing where we look beyond our own narrow needs. Someone recently repeated the point that if the whole world population could fit comfortable into some US State with so many feet in between. The point is greed, selfishness, lack of charity and hope have the naysayers worrying that 7 billion humans are too many - Malthus said that in the 19th century and we beat that dire predicition. We ought be more worried that most children ddie before they are two in some nations, and you Americans spent trillions over the decades since Vietnam through the whole Middle East, the Cold War with the former USSR, thousands killed. To what end? Those are JESUS’ questions, repeated by the Vicar of Christ, and those who share Gospel values.

Why does this surprise anyone, that we are celebrating women (man) at Mass instead of God.  Look at the Mass since Vatican II, it has become entirely man centered; the priest faces the people during the Liturgy of the Eurcharist; we hold hands during the Our Father; we do not genuflect in and out of the pews, we take Our Lord in the hand instead of on the tounge and do not kneel; no communion rail - I can go on.  The way the Mass has developed since Vatican II, this type on nonsense should really surprise no one.  It is really a shame what we have allowed to happen to Mass.

I am beginning to believe that the only people who read the “Register” are die-hard, conservative,Latin Catholics who just cannot accept change. Not all change is wrong. I do not like Latin, I understand English and feel more a part of the Mass when I hear and respond in English. I don’t like Communion on the tongue, because the priest fingers in most cases touch the tongue of someone else and then mine, just as drinking wine out of the same chalice. As to Communion in the hand, it can and has been done respectfully and if it is not, it is up to the Pastor to correct his congregation.  I like the Altar turned around to face the congregation, because Jesus faced His people when He instituted the Eucharist. Remember they were all around the table and in church it seems the same way with the Celebrant at the head of the table.  There is nothing wrong with modern hymns if they are beautifully done. I have heard people say “this is not a voice contest”. If God gives you a good voice, then give it back to Him in song. The same for any talent you may have, it all comes from God.  I have read enough of this change in the Mass to know this “what is the difference between saying “The Lord Be With You” or “The Lord Is With You”.  They are quibbling over semantics.  I am 84 yrs. old and I have learned to accept change. I like the Mass in English and I do not like chanting, especially in English [I admit it sounds better in Latin] but why do we need it. Most priest have terrible singing voices.
As to genuflecting, you have to take into account the large churches we have and sometimes we can stumble over one another, BUT YES, we should always genuflect when passing the tabernacle. My humble opinion only.

Sue (old),
If you’re 84 that means that you were about 40 when the silliness of the 1970s was introduced; you’re the one who has to accept change, for the young people prefer a church that worships God instead of (wo)man.

The Vatican just announced a new document on Liturgical music and architecture. Give the system the usual ten years or so to get written and passed back and forth to the bishops conferences.  Hope it beats the so called re-translation which was regurgitated Latin for the most part.

HermitTalker,
Boy, are you out of it.  It was the Vatican—first John Paul II, then Benedict XVI—who demanded the new translation.  Yes, it’s “regurgitated Latin,” a real translation inastead of a revision of the Latin “typical edition” of the Missal, but that’s the whole point.  As the Vatican said, “English is the new Latin,” and people who knew English better than Latin and then tried to translate the Latin into their own language were confused by the “revions” that the old ICEL produced.

Non idiootus sum. Scio ut Pontifices Romani GP11 et Benedetto XV1 roguent novus traducio Missale Ecclesia Catholica. Senex traducio non erat perfecta opera,  sed novus non est etiam. Sub tectum meum est pro multos fideliorum non casus sed tectum super labia et dentes in capite fidelus vir aut femina qui recipit sacramentum.  Requirit TRADUCTIO non transliteratio. AMEN. Finis. Dominus Vobiscum ET CUM TUO, non et cum spirito tuo.  PERSONA est corpus et spirtus non SOLUS SPIRITUS.

Mea culpa, non erat perfectus opus (supra0 et fideli vir. Senex sum !

@Don Schenk: Yes, I remember when Good Pope John XXIII made the changes. What you don’t understand is I went to Catholic School. We had Latin Mass and on one side of the prayer book was English and the other side Latin. The way we kids kept up with Mass was to look at the little picture to see just where the Priest was standing at the Altar. [and we read the English side, not the Latin side] Also, the 6-7-&8th; grades sang in the choir [they did not check our voices] and I could sing the Kyrie and Gloria as well as anyone and I specifically remember thinking “I wonder what I am singing” I know at that age we were naive and not like the kids today. I was in all the processions, etc., put my pennies in the Mite Box during Lent, you have it. I remember the processions in Honor Of Mary and sang “Oh Mary We Crown Thee With Blossoms Today” When the Altar was turned around and we started Mass in English I was so pleased and happy with it.  So I don’t have to make changes, I experienced the Latin and you are the one who won’t accept English.  Also I know for a fact from being around other ethnics, that sometimes they try to explain a meaning and they will say “there is no exact meaning in English”
You seem to have trouble with women in the church. God gave Our Blessed Mary the honor of giving birth to Jesus, His Son…what higher honor can any woman have. Also the song above, which I never heard and could not decipher the rest of it, is fine for a Novena to Mary and on Her feast days at Mass.  I am sure Jesus would not mind sharing His Mass with His Mother. I don’t know your age, & I don’t know if you are Catholic or not, but in the Catholic Church, our kids know exactly who Mary is and we all love and honor Her.

“What do you think of this liturgical song?”

It ain’t liturgical.

I should not have listened to that song, after having eaten so much pie. eep!

Definitetly not appropriate during mass.  I agree wholeheartedly.  God calls us to humilty before Him and most especially before His altar of sacrifice.  Hello!

Sue (old),
I not only went to Catholic school, I was an altar boy from 1959 to 1965.  And back then the “traditionalists complained about the Ester Vigil having been moved from Saturday morning to the evening.
And maybe in your school everybody was fluent in Latin, in my parish the old women prayed the rosary—in Hungarian.

Don Schenk: I did not say we were fluent in Latin, I said we could say the words but did not understand what we were saying and that is why I like the English, because I KNOW what I am saying {and don’t tell me Jesus knows, whether I do or not, because how can you pray from the heart if you do not know what you are saying, they are just words} Also, I think that if the elder people of your Church said the Rosary in Hungarian, I am sure they got a great deal more from it, than if they said it in English.  In my Parish, there were always Irish Priests and I assure you they, [the Irish] were catered too and not the Hungarians, Italians, Poles, etc. In the old days, all of the people could not be pleased, though there was less controversy but it is much worse today, everyone is a ‘theologian’. ;o) We live in the U.S., we speak English, I don’t care what language they use in Italy, Germany or France, they can use what they want. If I went to Germany and heard their Mass in German, it would be the same as me hearing it in Latin. [don’t understand]  Anyway Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Latin. 

The Italians say that opera is more beautiful in Italian than in German….Now the Catholics are saying the Mass is more beautiful in Latin than in English. ;o) Supposedly because it flows better. Whatever.

Yes, I remember the Holy Saturday Processions I was in, but then Processions went out of style by the time my children started Catholic Grade School. After the Altar was turned around in W.Va, long before NY (I think they “tried it out” in small Parishes)...they then started the Folk Group in about the 70’s and they were really good with the music and voices and I loved the congregation singing along with them. Hymns like “the Our Father”, “The Lord is My Shepherd”, etc.  Like I said, not everyone can be pleased and I will go along as usual.  I do think, whoever is changing the wording of the prayers are being a bit picayune.

Sue, we were NOT STUPID when the Latin Mass (Tridentine) only was offered, and suddenly became enlightened when English became the language of the liturgy. We all had Latin/English BOUND missals and used them weekly, if not daily. We knew we were in Church to worship God, and not ourselves. And some people did say the Rosary, and you know what, those SAME people are still saying the rosary during the English Mass. We were never properly catechised when Latin was jettisoned; like good obedient Catholics we just went along with whatever was in vogue. Some of us were fortunate enough to belong to churches where music was carefully chosen. We have watched it deteriorate to the point where the organs are falling apart and everything is guitar, or piano (I want to throw the match to light the bonfire of pianos someday, or see that they are donated to some nursing home or school-pianos are forbidden by Rome, but the American bishops and the “liturgists” were glad to get them installed in virtually every Church)
Thank the Lord that we are now being catechised on what we lost in translation 45 years ago. Just attend a Tridentine Mass, and pay attention to not only what the Latin words mean, but the gestures, the bows, the significance of the chalice, etc. etc.  God has had mercy on us in giving us this faithful translation.

Excellent, Annie. No, there was no instruction, no long wait, but BAM,  the new Mass came. It was a real shock, and the after shocks kept coming, and many were worse than the first.  I too thank God that things are FINALLY being done in the TRUE Spirit of VII, and with the way things are done these days, it will be slow slow slow, as they do not want to alienate anyone. They sure did not think of that when the rug was pulled out from under us. the only ones happy were those that either did not know what the true faith was truly about or people that wanted an “easy” modern faith, not caring what the truth was.

I, too, do not like the piano, drums, bongo drums, trumpets, trombones guitars and so on, and I REALLY do not like them in front of the church, distracting us from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, both by their presence next to the altar and the “music” that is played in so many churches.  Thank you, God, for hearing our prayers. The Truth will set us free. Christ’s peace!!

Just read a long article about music in the Catholic Church and this music squabble has been going on for centuries.  So what else is new?  Yes, they did use all sorts lyres, bugles other stringed instruments [whatever was in use at the time] and the organ was a much later instrument used. It was considered a very crude instrument. I’d take a good pianist over a loud ugly organ any time as well as stringed instruments.  Some people just don’t take change very well. The BIG BAM that you all talk about was a wonderful experience for me. I really liked it, especially the priest facing us rather than seeing his back all the time. It was the priest praising God, while we in the pews looked on.

I lived in W.Va. when all the changes started and we all knew about it beforehand, Parish Council, Altar turned around, etc. 

I am beginning to compare the Catholic Church to our government, too big, too many hands in the pot and no one knows what the other hand is doing. If there was any communications between the Pope and the Bishops, that pedaphelia would not have gone on. [I hope] Also if there were any communications between parents and kids, it would not have gone on.

Comparing the pedophilia scandal of 2-3 percent of clerics is so different from the communications over liturgy. The Pope is TEACHER and he is also CHIEF LEGISLATOR- his Church courts deal with disputes within the Church over property, finances and the sins/crimes of clergy. The bishops fifty years ago had no understanding of the disease and addiciton of pedophilia and now they are being aware, true and fiercely transparent about it. “Cover up” is a fake catchword that is so misused it has lost its meaning. The POPE got involved as BISHOP, PRIEST and TEACHER when the scandal went viral. Then he worked to set guidelines. He just spoke with the New York area bishops and said that the CATHOLIC CHURCH is not giving a MODEl to the rest of society which is riddled with sexual abuse of males, females, of all ages by single, married men and women. Public school kids are 100 times more vulnerable to their staff than Catholic clergy a female professor at Hofstra told the US Dept. of Education in a study she did for them.
LITURGY is about humans, our culture and our different uses of language and musical instruments. Getting that all right from a central authority that speaks Italian, mother of LATIN is akin to getting 3000 cats to sing in tune. Takes a lot of time and patience and some will always spit rather than sing the notes correctly!

Concerning the so-called “pedophile scandal”:
First of all, as HermitTalker noted, there is just as much sexual abuse with other clergy as with Catholic priests.  The true “cover-up” is the way the media ignores the problem with ministers, rabbis, and therapists.  And in 2004 the US Department of Education estimated that the problem is at least 100 times worse in the public schools, but all those people who want to get rid of the statute of limitations when suing a Catholic diocese also want to continue to protect public schools from any lawsuits at any time.
Secondly, it’s 2-3% of the priests who are accused, about 4% of priests, who are accused of pedophilia; 4/5ths of the priests who are accused are accused of seducing a teenage boy.  (The rest are teenage girls.)  The fact that this is a problem with homosexuals is also covered up, especially by the people who promote TV shows like “Glee.”

I read the Hofstra Study by Dr. Shakeshaft and it is true that pedophelia is a world problem [in many organizations/homes].  It is wrong and organizations, churches and universities etc, [any org. where children are involved] should not take matters into their own hands because it is a civil crime as well as a crime again God. I will not accept excuses from any one. 50 yrs. ago people knew about it and if the Bishops did not, then they were living in an entirely different world. I don’t believe that either because they are very worldly. [and what does the Bible say about it]. In the end, the Pope is at fault also because he is the Head of the Church. I am glad he is doing something about it and maybe then other organizations will follow suit.  A priest officiated in my daughter’s wedding in 1971 [Catholic Church/school] He was found to be a pedophile and transferred to another Catholic Church/school. This time these parents did not talk with anyone in the Church but went straight to the police and that priest was imprisoned. [that was 40 yrs ago] Mostly, I feel sorry for the good priests who have to suffer because of this mess.

This past Sunday, “Here at This Table” was the Offertory hymn at the Mass I attended.  Here is verse 4:

You, the aged among us,
holy, faithful and wise,
may the wisdom you share
form our lives and our world!

I had almost the exact same reaction:  “Aren’t we supposed to be getting ready to receive the Eucharist?  So wouldn’t it be better to sing about… God?”

The Mass, o tim has the famous mnemonic ACTS; Adoration, Contrition - GOD and neighbour who is JESUS among us, Thangsgiving and Supplication. The Sacred Action is both horizontal. That verse is a prayer and call to awareness of the elderly at Mass or home-bound.
SUE The Pope is as unaware of any specific sin of a bishop or priest in the Church unless he is told of instances just the your POTUS is not aware of every rape or murder bi his forces as C in Chief in Afghanistan. There is a Church Court/Tribunal for Church and prallel for Federal/State which takes time, both sides argue and decisions are made. There is no guarantee that Truth, Justice are the order of the day in either scenario.

Oh Blech! Really when are the women in our society going to realize that this self absorbed, self grandizing nonsense is simply vomit from the Feminazi faction.  That this attitude can become a self imposed prison and that true freedom comes in having a servants heart. The me me me, and I deserve and I have the right is truly a sinful attitude. Look to our Blessed Mother as an example. She always focuses on her Son as should we.

Hermit Talker, two thoughts: (1)  “That verse is a prayer.”  This proposition is extremely problematic to me, since the pronouns in the verse are directed to “the aged among us” rather than to God.  If the verse is truly meant to be intercession on behalf of the elderly, it is in dire need of a re-write.  (2)  I acknowledge the horizontal element of the Mass.  I just think the horizontal element is more appropriately emphasized in the Liturgy of The Word.  For instance, the Church recently proposed for our consideration the figure of Eleazar.  That would have been a GREAT time to talk about the elderly.  Note that I am of the same mind as Jimmy seems to be—I don’t object to discussion of the elderly per se, and would have had a similar reaction had another group been substituted for the elderly.  Indeed, we got a strong reminder of the need to visit the ill and homebound two weeks ago, in the gospel for the Feast of Christ The King.  As the Offertory is the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, I think it is time to start shifting to a predominantly vertical emphasis.  “Here at This Table” is (almost) all about us.

ANTHONY Thank you. Just answered Rick. Glad to chat with you also hfbhermitage@hotmail.com. Use ANTHONY FROM NCR as subject, they are still treating me as a Spammer here. I am in IRELAND and it is bedtime on my wheel-chair after a long day writing my own material.  Back at EST USA 6 AM here.

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As a song to use during Holy Mass or any other liturgy, that is ridiculous. Makes no sense as an offertory song. I don’t see a problem with singing it in some other context, for instance at some kind of women’s event.

This topic is so old by now. ANYWAY, that song can be part of our own offering of our gift of self, WE intentionally accept the vulnerable and the noisy, untidy of our lives and of others’ lives to be given over to JESUS so we get our attitude, and biases adjusted.  TRANSFORMED as the bread and wine are. Is not that part of what we are about, to be changed by Grace and accept the messiness of all of us around this altar and outside the walls of this building on through the week ahead?