Yes! It’s true! A major supernatural event will be occurring *this* Saturday, May 21, 2011!
I’m *not* kidding!
Harold Camping—president of the Protestant radio outreach known as Family Radio—has been predicting for some time that the long-awaited Rapture will occur on May 21st of this year.
Of course, he’s made similar predictions before. He famously got his followers worked up back in 1994 about that being the year the world would end (or something) and, well ... y’know.
But this time is different!
There really *is* a major supernatural event occurring this Saturday!
That doesn’t necessarily mean that the reasoning Camping uses to arrive at his conclusion is sound. In fact, it’s not.
If you go to Family Radio’s page explaining why the Rapture is supposed to happen this Saturday, the reasoning used is astronishingly weak. Even incoherent. Dig it:
God declared in 2 Peter 3:8:
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
God had written in the Holy Bible in Genesis 7:4:For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
God added in Genesis 7:10-11:And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the Flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
The ark that Noah had built was the only place of safety from the destruction of the Flood. Likewise, God’s gracious mercy is the only place of safety from the destruction that is coming on the Day of Judgment.In 2 Peter 3:8, which is quoted above, Holy God reminds us that one day is as 1,000 years. Therefore, with the correct understanding that the seven days referred to in Genesis 7:4 can be understood as 7,000 years, we learn that when God told Noah there were seven days to escape worldwide destruction, He was also telling the world there would be exactly 7,000 years (one day is as 1,000 years) to escape the wrath of God that would come when He destroys the world on Judgment Day. Because Holy Infinite God is all-knowing, He knows the end from the beginning. He knew how sinful the world would become.
Seven thousand years after 4990 B.C. (the year of the Flood) is the year 2011 A.D. (our calendar).
4990 + 2011 – 1 = 7,000
[One year must be subtracted in going from an Old Testament B.C. calendar date to a New Testament A.D. calendar date because the calendar does not have a year zero.]Thus Holy God is showing us by the words of 2 Peter 3:8 that he wants us to know that exactly 7,000 years after he destroyed the world with water in Noah’s day, he plans to destroy the entire world forever. Because the year 2011 A.D. is exactly 7,000 years after 4990 B.C. when the flood began, the Bible has given us absolute proof that the year 2011 is the end of the world during the Day of Judgment, which will come on the last day of the Day of Judgment.
Got that?
Me neither.
So let’s employ a technique commonly used by philosophers when trying to analyze someone’s argument. Let’s try to put it in logical form. As near as I can tell, Camping’s argument has a form something like this:
1) Noah’s Flood occurred in 4990 B.C.
2) Noah was warned seven days before the Flood that it would occur, per Genesis 7.
3) A day with the Lord is like a thousand years, per 2 Peter 3.
4) Therefore, 7,000 years after Noah’s Flood some great, Flood-like judgment will occur.
5) 4990 B.C. + 7000 -1 = A.D. 2011.
6) Therefore, the end of the world will occur in 2011.
Camping has other arguments zeroing in on May 21st as the date for the Rapture and for October 21st for the final end of the world (if I understand correctly), but before messing with days, let’s first see if his argument concerning years holds water.
The first thing to be remarked about the argument as I’ve put it above is that it’s not in a logically valid form. The premises do not entail the conclusions. I could fix that by rephrasing and introducing some extra, hidden premises, but Camping’s logic is so obscure that I don’t want to go too far beyond what he explicitly says. So let’s simply look at the premises of the argument and see how likely they are to be true, remembering that if even one premise is false then the whole argument is unsound (and that’s if it had a valid form to begin).
Premise 1, that the Flood occurred in 4990 B.C. is an idiosyncratic claim on Camping’s part. You’ll note that this date is earlier than the conventional Protestant Ussher chronology, which had the world beginning in 4004 B.C. and had the Flood occurring around 2348 B.C. Camping rejects the Ussher dating, and I can’t fault him for that. I reject it myself, as do most Protestants these days, because it is based on unsound methodology and results in unlikely, unprovable, and over-precise dates.
Unfortunately, I have no more confidence in Camping’s dating, which also strikes me as unlikely, unprovable, and over-precise. I don’t know what house of cards he has supporting that date, but I view basing any argument regarding the end of the world on this date as extremely shaky.
Premise 2, that Genesis depicts Noah being told that the Flood was going to begin in seven days (this was after he’d been given an earlier warning and built the ark) is true.
Premise 3, that Peter states that a day with the Lord is like a thousand years is also true.
But can we infer from this that some Flood-like judgment would occur 7,000 years after the original Flood?
Not on your life.
For a start, why zero-in on the warning Noah got seven days before everything started happening? Why not focus instead on the earlier warning he got? Why not at some other time in this narrative? The proposed starting point is arbitrary.
For another thing, why suppose that there’s any kind of prophetic significance to this at all? There is nothing in the text telling us that these seven days, or any span of time mentioned in the narrative, is a scale-model prophecy of when the end of the world will take place relative to the Flood. This is sheer supposition.
What’s more, why should the scale be a thousand years to a day? This is a notorious bugaboo with predictions of the end of the world. Over and over different interpreters pick out some random mention of days in the Old Testament, multiply it by a thousand years, and then declare some prophesied even must occur on the corresponding date.
It’s true that 2 Peter says that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord, this doesn’t give us a license to take any mention of a day and interpret it as a thousand years. Quite the opposite! The exact same passage also says the reverse: That a thousand years is like a day with God (per Psalm 90:4). In other words, time is meaningless with God. He’s an eternal being who can find as much experience in a day as we would in a thousand years and who can encompass huge spans of time like a thousand years in what is only a moment for him. Rather than providing a license to multiply any reference to a day as code for a thousand year prophetic period, this verse is actually a warning against trying to determine God’s timetable for events. That timetable is unpredictable because we cannot know what temporal calculus God is applying to particular prophecies.
Camping’s use of this verse is thus not only over-precise but flatly contrary to the literal meaning of the verse!
And would be even if the seven days mentioned Genesis 7 were a prophetic scale model, which we have no reason to think.
And if those days were prophetic in some way, why treat them and only them in such a way? What God says is that in seven days he would start flooding for 40 days and 40 nights. Does that mean that once the judgment starts it will go on for 40,000 years?
Camping doesn’t think so. He’s got the final end coming in October. This only underscores the arbitrary nature of the figure he has picked out and multiplied. If the seven days mentioned must be literally multiplied by 1,000 years, why should the 40 days also mentioned in the same passage not be similarly multiplied?
Camping does, at least, avoid the trap of thinking that there’s a “year zero” on our timeline. There’s not. It jumps from 1 B.C. to A.D. 1, so he gets points for that. Not all end-time speculators have been so fortunate on that one.
But even if we were to grant all of the foregoing, even if there were some big Flood-like event scheduled to occur 7,000 years after a 4,990 B.C. Flood, why would it have to be the end of the world? Why not just Another Big Judgment?
Even that is giving him too much credit, however. The fact is that this whole prediction is a house of cards. It’s based on over-precise, unknowable dates, arbitrary starting points, arbitrary parallelisms, invalid logic, and a multiplication factor that is wrenched out of context and used in a way flatly contrary to the clear meaning of the text.
Given that his overall year calculation is so shot through with holes, we need not be detained by his more precise datings of the Rapture or the final end. (I should also note that Catholics do not typically use the term “Rapture,” though they do acknowledge the reality of the event St. Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, though it is seen as occurring at the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the world, not before an earthly millennium.)
The whole thing is comic—but it is also tragic, because many people have been misled by Camping, and some have been misled into spending vast sums of money in support of his advertising campaign, telling their friends and co-workers that the world is about to end, and generally bringing scorn on the cause of Christ.
As St. Paul wrote: “It is written, ‘The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you’” (Rom. 2:24).
You have to admire the courage of people like this gentleman who spent his life savings promoting these speculations, but not their wisdom.
God help everyone who bought into this come Sunday morning.
Of course, that’s not to say Christ couldn’t come back on Saturday. I don’t see the signs being right for that, but who am I to say it couldn’t happen?
Harold Camping is right, though, that a major supernatural event will be happening this Saturday.
One of my godsons is being confirmed!
Congratulations, James!
So ... what do you think?
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You have a godson named James? That’s so cool! Congratulations to him!
As for Camping, I wonder if he’d borrow me money? After all, he’s not going to need it after May 21, or so he claims…
Thanks for clearing that up, Jimmy…it’s a shame that people actually believe this end of the world stuff. We can use this subject matter as a means in which to minister, evangelize, inform, educate the ignorant and those looking for the TRUTH:) Home is where the heart is…in Jesus!
Jimmy is being modest—he’s directly involved in the coming supernatural event! He isn’t just James’s godfather—come next Saturday, he’ll be his confirmation sponsor too!
Why do people that employ Bible verses for advanced calculations fail to recall ‘you know not the day nor the hour.’?
Good analysis, Jimmy! I especially liked “a scale-model prophecy of when the end of the world will take place relative to the Flood.” What a lovely turn of phrase on your part; it just exactly describes what Camping is doing with his illogical speculations. And congratulations to your Godson; may God bless you both on the supernatural occasion of his confirmation.
Excellent work, Jimmy!
My own favorite prediction (favorite, that is, for a good laugh) for the General Resurrection is this one:
1. A day = 1,000 years;
2. Jesus predicted His body would lay in the tomb for 2 nights and then rise on the third day;
3. The General Resurrection is when the Church rises from the grave;
4. The Church is the Body of Christ;
5. Therefore, the Church will rise from (their collective) grave 3,000 years (3 days times 1,000 years) after the Crucifixion.
Therefore, Harold Camping is wrong; we’re only about 2/3rds of the way there.
Of course, the problem with this is that Jesus’ time in the tomb wasn’t three full 24 hour periods, but rather a time span somewhat less than that which involved parts of three different days.
So I wonder if we’re meant to multiply two-point-five days by 1,000, instead of a full three. Maybe He returns in the year 2,500?
-ish?
Come, Lord Jesus. (In Your OWN Good, Sweet Time!)
As for “You shall not know the day or the hour,” I think the answer is simple:
One is forbidden to predict a particular day, and definitely not a particular time-of-day or “hour.” (Harold Camping should pay attention!)
However, one may predict a particular week. Or even a weekend. You can say, “He’ll either return Saturday or Sunday. Not sure which, because I don’t know the day. But I’m confident it’s this weekend.”
THE PROBLEM WITH THIS ARGUMENT is, of course, that a “day” means…a thousand years!
So: You’re actually forbidden to guess in which millennium Christ will return.
Or, rather, you can guess, but you won’t be right, because Jesus already told us that “no man will know the day [1,000 year period] or the hour [41.67 year period, 1/24th of a 1,000-year “day”].”
He’ll return on whichever “day” is the one on which nobody ever guessed He’d return.
Is THAT the reason Jesus is taking so long to return?
Because He ruled out in advance anybody knowing the “day” or the “hour,” and all these jokers keep making predictions?
“Phooey,” saith the Lord, “I’d been hoping to make an appearance sometime around 2250. But then Harold made another prediction. Now I’ll have to put it off to at least 1,000 years after 2011. Otherwise, Harold will have correctly guessed the ‘day’, and I’ve already made it a rule that he can’t. BOTHER!”
(No offense, Lord.)
I believe the Bible is teaching that May 21, 2011 will be as it was in the days of Noah.
I am very sad for those who have been following this lie that the rapture will occur on May 21st. Even if they attempt to explain away “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father” (Mark 13:32), they cannot explain away that most every Christian, theologian, scholar, and prophet from the first Century until the Nineteenth Century all believed that the church would go through the Great Tribulation and not escape through some secret rapture that would leave the world paralyzed. I pray that they will take a moment and read my book, “Final Warning” because the hour of is His judgment has come. http://www.revelation-truth.org
Sure am glad I’m Catholic! (Wasn’t born/raised that way, but became one by His grace!! Thanks be to God!!)
Isn’t it funny that those that claim the most fidelity to Word of God are the ones that make these claims. Whether it be at Baptist Churches, Calvary Chapels, Assemblies of God; I have heard stuff like this, but just different dates. But let us remember brothers and sisters that these men are fools to claim to know what only God knows. Don’t listen to them, but listen to the words of your Master the Good Shepherd: “It is not for you to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own Authority.” Acts 1:7, “Take care that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, saying I Am He and The Time has drawn near. Therefore do not go after them.” Luke 21:8… My heart aches to know so many of our Catholic brethren have bought into this garbage or at least one form or another of this package. Even more sad is how easy it is to refute these claims.
One more thing…...Recently at an Assemblies of God retreat, I heard a famous pastor from Texas say that we don’t know the times, but we are to know the seasons….I’m just saying, not everybody that constantly has Jesus on their lips is someone to follow after. And just because they carry a Bible under their arm and close their eyes and raise their hands when praying, doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit is leading them. Correct me if I am wrong, but on this subject I think I disagree with the Pope, though I’m not one of those Catholics who is out to disagree with the Pope on purpose. I just don’t understand. How can they be our brethren if Christ so explicitly warns us about these types of teachers. What about what Paul says in his epistles and Jude. How about the Church Fathers? If someone can explain to me, why I am to consider them My Brethren, please, I am open to whatever you say.
No doubt he’ll come up with some fancy/ridiculous explanation as to why it did not end. What astonishes me is that he will still have followers. Quite bizarre.
Get ready for an excuse as to why it did not happen.
The scholars have always been wrong. That is one thing of which we are sure. Christ has always been right and even though some have been evil enough to accuse him of being ‘that deceiver’ he has never so far been proven incorrect.
With the use of money the Jewish leaders tried to prove that he would not, could not rise from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights, 72 hours and could not hinder him from being accurate.
The good Friday hoax, and the Sunday morning rising from the dead is another lie that has been swallowed by the ignorant.
Every Jew knows that Jesus died on the evening before passover John 19:14 the 13 day of abib and rose on the evening of the weekly sabbath 3 days & 3 nights exact 72 hours.
But as all Catholics should know lies are the foundation on their massive edifice is built. Seems to me that you resent any lie that you have not started.
“The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!”
We are witnessing people reading a bronze age mythological book written by camel farmers and behaving like this in the 21st Century…...simply astonishing…
I’ve also heard that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Anyone know which thousand? Just wanna make sure not to steal the wrong cow.
I do believe the rapture is close. One more disaster and I will think it is real close, but I don’t think man predict the day. Within a year or 2 maybe, but not the day. I am the author of The Unborn Guardian and The Unborn Sacrifice and in my story I use a Biblical calculation to come to a rapture year and begin the tribulation period. That calculation is based on scripture and does hit between now and the end of 2012, but there is no way I could find to hit the day, so I don’t believe the 21st will be the day. However, since God the Father knows, I’m okay with it…blessings…
We had the rapture here in Canada on May2…we elected a very fine majority Conservative government.
It’s true, a supernatural event is going to take place this Saturday, for in every Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church throughout the entire world that celebrates the Divine Liturgy, Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of Mary will turn common bread and wine into His very Self! At least Camping got the supernatural part right. Besides I have to perform a wedding on Saturday. I hope the Lord waits until at least Sunday to rapture us.
I also have a supernatural event occuring Saturday… my daughter is getting married! Praise God.
Congratulations on the wedding!! Praying many blessings for them.
Harold Camping’s prediction exhibits hubris—and I am being charitable, because it might be I called blasphemy. Our Lord said that not even the Son of Man knows the Dayton or hour. So, are we to believe that the Father has revealed to Camping what he concealed from Jesus?!
Another supernatural event this Saturday - 8 men will be ordained to the priesthood here in Denver. Seems there are supernatural events all over the place!
JESUS IS COMING SATURDAY!!!!
He is! He really is!! He’s coming to a Catholic Church near you, and will be in the Eucharist for you! He’s not going to sweep you off your feet, but will wait quietly and patiently for YOU!
I plan to attend said rapture. See you there? :)
I meet people who speak about end of the world.
I found answer which makes issue very simple.
For me end of the world is when I die. Every day there is end of the world for about 300.000 people. Until year 2111. end of the world will happen to about all people who live today (except those who willo live longer then 100 years). Even if many people die in same moment as during sunami or earthquake, in reality everyone dies alone.
What is point in thinking about end of the world ?
I nominate Camping to be the new GPS voice: “Recalculating…”
Let me see if I have this right: According to most evangelicals, a “Rapture” and a “Tribulation” and a “Second Coming” WILL eventually occur, it’s just that no one knows exactly when. In fact, a significant number of people actually believe that a “Rapture” will happen during their own lifetimes, and they will be beamed up to Heaven, leaving little more than their clothes and their dentures behind.
So far it sounds pretty nutty. So why is it that Harold Camping is somehow NUTTIER because he’s determined a DATE for all this mumbo-jumbo?
I find it extremely disturbing that so many people, even many elected officials, think in such Apocalyptic terms. How it must cloud their long-term view of the future! Imagine: All of our science and technology and exploration and investment in the Advancing Modern World is all for naught, because it will simply be swept away in some grand battle between the armies of Heaven and Hell! How utterly depressing and nihilistic!
Maybe it would be far better if people would just grow up, get over their fairytales and superstitions, and learn how to live in the REAL WORLD. Trust me, you can enjoy a perfectly happy, decent, and meaningful life without having to worry about “The Rapture.”
Of course if I’M wrong, and all the sanctimonious Bible-thumpers DO vanish into thin air on Saturday ... so much the better!
HAROLD CAMPING IS NOT A CHRISTIAN!
No True Christian would follow this man. He is an arrogant Old fool who believes his own Bible translations.
His followers are the worst, they trust “HAROLD CAMPING INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE…NOT THE BIBLE!
Harold Camping is a horrible Bible teacher. HERE IS HOW HE FOOLS YOU
SEE HERE
http://haroldcamping-21.blogspot.com/2011/05/exposing-harold-campings-fake-numbers.html
Wow. Judgment day is my wedding anniversary. Maybe we should rethink our plans? Post-rapture looting, perhaps?
Throughout history countless thousands of people have predicted the end of the world, and they all have one thing in common… they were all wrong.
If it doesn’t happen then the argument will most likely be that his prayers held back the wrath of God?
What a relief! Now I don’t have to cut the grass or shampoo the carpets this weekend. WHEW!
Thank you very much for this analysis. I’m a Christian myself, but I’m very wary of Camping’s claims. I think everyone needs to read this; some people just lack common sense.
Jimmy: Do you know when Christians (or Israelites/Jews for that matter) began making predications for the eschaton based on chronological references in the Bible? Is this an ancient practice or simply a relatively modern trend started primarily by fundamentalist interpreters of Sacred Scripture? (I understand, of course, that some Fathers held to chiliastic beliefs, but did they try to predict when that millennial reign would start?)
Doesn’t the flood fall apart as predicting the end of the world because God specifically says it WON’T happen again?
RC - I’ve often wondered the same thing, that all these predictions keep the Lord away. Then I wonder if we could predict by removing all the predictions and looking at what’s left….but then that’s a prediction. Ah well, back to doing the work given to me and trusting the Lord to come in His time.
JohnE - very funny :)
My nine year-old teases that she sure hopes this all goes down after her recital Saturday is over.
I’ve had people on Twitter send me messages. I simply point them at Matthew 24 & ask them to contact me in November. Not to be snarky, but because I’d sincerely like to have a serious discussion of the end of the world.
What I am teaching my children is that we don’t know when Jesus is coming again, but we are called to live as if we’ll be meeting Him for Judgement at any moment on any given day. Then I remind them to pray for the people being drawn away from real Christianity and into this cult.
I hope that there are many more like me that decided to read this out of couriosity only. We should not be so concerned about when the world will end but rather our sins and what we should be doing on a regular daily basis to follow in our Lord’s footsteps, not man’s.
Does it say what time He’s coming? I can’t get to confession until 3pm. I hope it’s after that!!
;)
No man can know the day, or the hour…..period.
Not to worry ! The savior sits in the oval office ! He is doing everything he can to insure your lives will be “CHANGED” forever & that his party of death will determine what you can do & when you can do it. He has an enemies list & will gladly terminate every freedom loving person on it if he gets the chance ! Watch him closely. Everything he does is calculated to cause internal turmoil & economic disaster which will certainlt END your WORLD as you know it !
The photo used in this article made me remember that news article that circulated via email about the woman who lept from her moving vehicle because she thought it was the rapture. I honestly thought it was real until I looked it up just now and saw that it was one of those internet hoax’s. It’s still a funny read.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blrapture.htm (SFW)
I’d like to point out that when discussing the End of The World, it would be important to note that Jesus did NOT respond the by saying, “don’t worry about when the world will end. I’ll take care of that. You just worry about your sins.” Fact is that Jesus took the time to give a series of signs and though each of most of the signs have been throughout time, almost all the signs are more prevalent, more numerous, and certain signs have appeared within the last 63 years that were not present before. So, we do need to watch and learn and apply what we see logically as we go about witnessing to unsaved people. To ignore the signs would be the ostrich way of sticking our head in the sand and not seeing. However, we would need to be very careful about trying to pinpoint the day, as there is no scripture that will support a day and an hour, other than it will happen.
Any set date will necessarily be wrong, because “of that day and hour no one knows.” (Mt 24:36)
The problem, of course, is that nonsense ends up ridiculing not only those who spread it, but the whole body of Christ.
Interestingly enough, when we are faced with End of Times discussions, I often see that we miss a few points that clear the whole thing up; 1. It is my understanding based on the Word of God, that the End of Times will not occur according to our understanding of “time”. In Revelations it clearly points out that it will occur “beyond time”. 2. Revelations states that we will know false claims when people put a “time-line” on the End of Times. 3. God’s first people, the Jews, will come back to the Church. 4. The Anti-Christ will use his misguided words to lure many from the Church (although we can see some of this happening, Apologists state that this has yet to come to fruition). 5. Revelations also speaks of One final challenge within the Church that will drive out many (again, nothing has been offered to fulfill this yet). If we keep some of these in mind, we will do a better job of not falling for false claims. Also, in Revelations, it speaks of Jesus giving all of us one final opportunity to reconcile for our sins and accept our Lord. If the end of times offers this, which people like our President desperately needs, I will express what my 8 year old just said to me after watching Narnia, “I can’t wait until Jesus comes again”!
This story makes me laugh so much! Imagine how about other countries that their 21st May date is not on this coming Saturday. It sounds to me that rapture, or I will put in another word, the end of the world will be occurred in countries by countries! But the book of Revelation 1:7 says that everyone will see Him. That means, for me, there won’t be any particular date and time but His coming will happen and “everyone” will see that.
I wonder what will be happen to Camping if this prophesy is failed. May be he has to refund money to those who had supported him. This is really a mistaken led. Anyway, thank you Akin for you analysis I like it.
RocknSwords
Amy-Lyn, how can you say Camping is not Christian just because you disagree with him? If you are protestant, everybody can interpret scripture for themselves, no? This is where your system falls apart, everybody judging who is and is not Christian. You all use the same Bible, yet you are always disagreeing with each other, like a Tower of Babel. Sorry, but it’s the truth.
A wise man once told me,“When you die, as far as you’re concerned, it’s the end of the world”.
It’s times like this that being a Catholic and therefore not a real Christian really pays off. I get to miss the Rapture and so it won’t screw up my vacation plans for Memorial Day! Also, I’m presuming Mr. Camping won’t mind if I go into his house and take whatever I find there on Sunday?
In response to Jim’s question, “everybody can interpret scripture for themselves, no?” The answer is yes people can, but they should not. Jesus was very clear that He was the Word of God! Jesus established the Universal Church, more commonly known as the Catholic Church. Ever since, the Apostles have done a very good job, with the help of the Holy Spirit to interpret, educate, and share the Word of God as Jesus intended. So, if you want to interpret scripture, you should not go off on your own, but come home to the Catholic Church and allow it to help you in the interpretation of scripture. Many have tried to do it on their own, eventually those seeking “Truth” come back home.
Yeah and let us nevermind that 1,000 is simply an excercise of the superlative, which the Semitic tongue otherwise lacks.
Holy x Holy x Holy
Aleleuia x Aleleuia x Aleleuia
Good x Good x Good
Some like it Hot
Some like it Hot, Hot
Some like it Hot, Hot, Hot
10 x 10 x 10
at least that’s what the Maronite tells me.
So Harold Camping is claiming to be smarter than Jesus? Any Christian that claims to know the day or the hour is basically doing this as not even the Son knows the day or the hour.
Good Grief! :-|
The supernatural is already happening.all of us have had the patience and time to not only read this Camping but also offer our comments,leaving all else.The height of Camping’s tomfoolery and stupidity is that this rubbish has penetrated into places like even India where I live.In my city of Chennai,there are fools with banners running in their vehicles pronouncing “Judgement Day-May 21.Repent”.Most of the 1.5 million Christians-including about.9 million Catholics may not have seen it;and those non Christians who saw it or see it have no idea what Judegement day means,and so it does not impact any one.So even if Camping has a sense of sadism to just frighten people,he is not getting it.Sad Camping.We are no fool like you.May you be saved!
@ Christina-the-soccer-mom: Christina, we can be sure the Good Lord will hold off on the Rapture until your child’s game is concluded. He’s far too merciful to leave her sulking about the loss of a game she was looking forward to all week, not to mention leaving you having to explain all the convoluted “theology” that Camping and his other Rapturists have no doubt cooked up to justify their belief in the Ultimo Event of All Ultimo Events they know for certain, will occur this Saturday.
Gotta tell ya, that Darby from the 19th century and his late 20th century followers/hucksters, authors LaHaye & Jenkins, (with their “Left Behind” series, the awful movies, and that abominable interactive game) are going to have a real interesting time when they get their Dies Irae and face Rex Tremendae. Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm. Now that’d be an “end-of-all-times” drama to watch.
In the meantime, you can count on attending your nine-year old’s game because that heretic preacher who’s coming up with this nonsense doesn’t have anywhere near the clout as the soccer-loving Holy Father who just happens to be in charge of leading the only church founded by God through His only Son Jesus ... and to make sure we humans don’t derail the train until HE (Pope Benedict’s “higher paygrade”) says the games over, it ain’t over. Uh oh, I just mixed up soccer with baseball using part of a Yogi Berra-ism. Come to think of it, if the Yanks don’t improve by the end of the week and Red Sox surpass them, even I might start getting worried. LOL
Brother Camping is very devout and well intentioned. Unfortunately, pride has blinded him, as it does most Protestants. They have only a Bible, in which to look for understanding of God’s plan of creation and salvation. I pray that Camping’s spiritual eyes will be opened through his humbling by his false prophecy, which will become apparent in the fullness of time. Thank-you, Jimmy.
We should treat EVERY day as though Christ is about to return. That is our calling…to stay right with Him and be prepared always. That’s what He wants.
so…
Did God warn Noah 7 days or 7000 years prior to the flood?
Did it rain for 40 days or 40000 years (we are at day 30193 of rain here I think. 40000 days or years would explain a world wide flood.
I shudder to think how long the Israelites wandered in the desert.
When do we apply the 1 day = 1000years multiplier and we do we not? all answers must be backed of only by scripture
I suppose that, because his arguments make little sense, a few people have concluded that they must be sophisticated, comprehensible only to the theologically elite. Either that or they just really, really trust Camping, or really, really want the world to end. I do feel sad for them, truly. Not only are they deluded by a charlatan, but they are unwittingly proving as a counter-witness to true Christianity (which they say is corrupt). The disappointment on Sunday morning will be bitter for those who truly believed. I fear suicides, possibly even Camping’s own suicide (though probably not, since he’s been through this before).
On a practical note, I’m very curious what will happen with their radio stations. I’ve been following the one where I live since 2009, when the predictions began (apparently).
—
Adam
http://chrysologus.blogspot.com
Jimmy, I really don’t know your intent of this article and whether this is to poke fun of Mr. Camping or Protestants in general. The fact is that even the great majority of Protestants have dismissed Camping many years ago (like over 25 years ago) and think this guy is three sheets to the wind. Camping’s following is more cultic like David Koresh or Jim Jones and the Guyana tragedy.
The only time in my life I heard my grandfather swear was when—over 20 years ago now—some group or another said the world was going to end on or around Halloween of that particular year. When I expressed my worry about it, he said, “Those people are full of….” well, you get the picture. I remember his words to this day, and apply them as needed.
Anyway, it’ll be interesting to see what they say come May 22.
edh, I totally agree.
I first found out about May 21, 2011 from a pamphlet I found on a rack at a Vietnamese restaurant in Santa Clara. Now the radio station has billboards up around the Bay Area with the silhouette of a man on his knees in prayer and a verse from Jonah: “Cry mightily unto God”. Given Judgment is NOT this Saturday, it will be interesting to look back on this as a cult phenomenon. I am please to get your take on this, Jimmy. Thanks.
@New Observer:
I cannot tell you Jimmy’s *intent*, but I can discern what it seems to be.
Many people are talking about this. Jimmy is providing a thoughtful critique of the claim. And he is doing so in the lighthearted manner so many have come to appreciate.
He is also pointing out that we don’t have to seek the extraordinary to have a true encounter with the living God. Elijah found Him in the still, small voice; he didn’t need the ‘mighty deeds.’
I have listened to Mr. Camping from time to time as I travel and come in range of one of his broadcast stations. He has a very interesting way of putting this “Rapture”
The Bible teaches that the Rapture is coming. Only “true believers” will be raptured, leaving the rest to suffer hell on earth. True believers are those who believe the Bible. If you don’t believe that the Rapture is coming on May 21st, then you don’t believe the Bible, hence, you will be “left behind” and since you are left behind, you are obviously not a true believer, therefore, your eternal destiny is hell.
See? He threatens those who don’t believe in this tommyrot with hell. I can’t tell you how many people have threatened me with hell because I don’t subscribe to their intepretation of the Sacred Scriptures. It is legion.
Jimmy, I’m with you on Sunday. You can have the computer. I want his plasma TV!!
Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!!
Any possibility Camping will take Glenn Beck, LaHaye & Jenkins, Pat Robertson and Franklin Graham with him? That’d make my day, except for the loss of the yuks those guys provide, especially Beck.
And then there’s the whole RAPTURE ridiculousness to begin with. It’s a non-Biblical concept that was started in the mid-1800s by a fellow named Darby. One example of screwy theology: ‘as in the days of Noah’...think about it. In the ‘days of Noah’, the BAD GUYS were taken (away in the flood) and the GOOD GUYS were LEFT BEHIND! Do I want to be taken away?? Heck no, I wanna be on the side of the GOOD GUYS, so if it’s ‘as in the days of Noah’ then i want to be left behind! Just one small example of the craziness. REad David Currie and/or Paul Thigpen’s book on the subject for great read, good arguments and sound theology! (BTW…I’m a convert who was raised on the rapture-theory, so know the ins and outs of it very well!)
Hey thanks for clearing this up Ian 13 and go to bible school and new he was a fake because no man can predict but you clearly made this obvious looking forward to my Sunday with my mom and sister thanks again
-Zachary m
Man plans, God laughs!
I hope I don’t get… LEFT BEHIND!!
It seems that there are some further inconsistencies to be found on the family radio website.
it states for example that
“What Qualifies Mr. Camping to make the pronouncement of May 21, 2011?
Mr. Camping has been a tireless student of the Bible for over five decades. The tens of thousands of hours he has spent analyzing the Bible has given him a unique perspective of the entirety of Scripture.”
then later
“Christ’s people can look with great confidence to this date because God promises His ‘beloved’ He will not come upon them as a thief in the night.”
Now i could be wrong but it seems that scripture says exactly the opposite
1 Thessalonians Chapter 5:2 “For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night”
well they are right about the unique perspective part at least.
Do those who say, “Lo here, or lo there, are the signs of His coming”, think to be too keen for Him, and spy His approach? When He tells them to watch lest He find them neglecting their work, they stare this way and that, and watch lest He should succeed in coming like a thief! George MacDonald
If a day is like a thousand years, then the “Rapture” wouldn’t occur on May 21 2011, but on May 21 2011 through May 21 3011. Thus, another flaw in his logic. If 7 days is 7,000 years, then the “Rapture” “day” would also be a thousand years.
You forgot to mention that after the flood God put a bow in the sky and said that the world would not be destroyed by another flood, this was his covenant with Noah. And our beloved Lord himself had said I come like a thief in the night, but be aware of the signs, so who can predict the end, if everyone focused on a good pray life and fasting, obeying Gods commandment, unconditional love and forgiveness (mercy) the world would be a better place for all because God would be in control.
Thank you so much for your wisdom, discernment, knowledge and common sense. Years ago when I first came to the Lord through the charismatic renewal I was introduced to a book entitled The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay. As a cradle Catholic I had never heard of the raputre or the second coming preached…I believe all of it and anxiously awaited the coming of the Lord any day…that was 34 years ago! I read a book “88 reasons why the rapture is in 1988”....and believed back then that the Lord would come and “take” all true believers out of the world before the great tribulation began….as I began to study my catholic faith, reading books by Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft and others I came to understand that a) the “theology” behind the rapture is very vague and the current belief was begun in the early 1900’s and b)that we should live everyday as if it were our last since none of us knows the day or hour when God will call us home….Also, there is alot of fear surrounding May 21st and we know that fear does NOT come from God but from the evil one…as I read about Harold Camping I see a man who is an egomanica, determined to “predict” the coming of the Lord; a man who says that in 1988 the Holy Spirit left the church and satan came in and set up shop…and all those who belong to organized churches will NOT be raptured because we are NOT “saved”....
this is satan speaking for sure…oddly enough Harold Camping was asked to leave his church in 1988 because of his teachings…it happened on May 21st…coincidence? I think not! Thanks again for clearing things up in a world with so much confusion - Jesus is Our Peace, Our Hope, Our Savior!
God Bless!
It could happen on May 21st. It could happen in 10,000 years. We should expect it to happen right after each next breath and prepare ourselves accordingly.
These dates that poeple try to calculate for the “end of the world”, though, does make you think. And I don’t think on days like this in My or Dec. 21, 2012 will be when the world expolodes, but be the end of the world as we know it.
To me, they are shifts in our community of poeple and events. Bin Laden was killed near this date in May, hoping that there will be a shift in peace. There has been uproars in countries like Eygpt.
But, then again, look at how technology has been a tool for evil—Excessive bullying, poeple getting killed meeting poeple through it for sex (craig’s list) (or lately, a man just trying to buy a computer), fights regarding morality (abortion and gay marriage, cloning) and rights (immigration).
There also has been a great increase in natural disasters all over the globe, with tornadoes, flooding and earthquakes just in the last 2 years alone.
Technology has also diminished many jobs in the last 20 years—It’s put video rental centers, photo shops, bookstores and music shops out of business, etc.
I love the web and use it as a tool for education. It has lead me to expand my education while attending college and to learn of my faith.
But, many have used it to exploit and hurt children (porn) and other degrading uses.
Poeple collectively need to be awakened to God. Poeple need to be educated on God and faith—For, as you see, with out it, the world does seem to be crumbling around us. Maybe,these disasters and seeing that manry or just going too far with wanting rights to live in demoralizing lifestyles will do it. In RI, They claim that there was an increase last year of 2,000 poeple returning to the Catholic Church.
Maybe it won’t be May 21st of this year. Maybe it won’t be Dec. 21, 2012—But from the look of things, “The End” may be coming sooner than you think.
@Orthodox: Actually, rapture is mentioned in the Bible. Look up 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Now, taking the concept literally is a whole other thing. It could very well refer to a spiritual rapture.
Tim, you are absolutely correct. The event itself of rapture is [documented] by St. Paul in Thessalonians 4 even if the word “rapture” per se is not used. For that matter, the word purgatory is not in the Bible either yet many believe it exists. The important issue in this Harold Camping matter is that we all should be *prepared* since Jesus said in Matthew 24: “Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Whether one is Catholic or Protestant, there is agreement on Matthew 24.
“The Bible clearly says that”...if someone claims to be a prophet and makes a flase prophesy, you should stone him to death.
Since Harold Camping is till alive, it’;s obvious that his employees don’t take him seriously.
But that poor MTA employee will be out of his life savings.
I do have a deep theological question for you Jimmy: If the rapture is this Saturday, and my brother’s birthday is this Saturday, and he get’s raptured, can I take back his birthday gift? Or should I just wait until Sunday to avoid the dilemma?
Because He ruled out in advance anybody knowing the “day” or the “hour,” and all these jokers keep making predictions?
Well, literally He said “know”, so I suppose someone could make a lucky guess.
@IrishEddieOHara: Camping doesn’t believe in an eternal hell. He teaches annihilationism—the souls of the damned will cease to exist. He also denies the Trinity.
I am certainly not a biblical scholar, but my understanding has always been that we can never know the time until it is time and that if someone comes to us to say that it is time we should not believe them.
I am certain that when the time comes we will know. Until then we must live our lives as best we can.
you do realize that this is all ridiculous and no “supernatural” being is ever going to come smite us all right?
Jimmy, I’m glad you addressed this, now I can share with the people who sadly believe this.
Really! My sister’s yard sale is a supernatural event. She picked a great Saturday to have a yard sale. *tee-hee* I got a good giggle from some of your comments.
edh states “Ever since, the Apostles have done a very good job, with the help of the Holy Spirit to interpret, educate, and share the Word of God as Jesus intended.” This only happens in the Catholic Church? Aren’t we all touched by the Holy Spirit?
Christ -will- return one day, but because Camping is saying it will positively be this Saturday, it will positively NOT be this Saturday.
Thanks for this! Just the right bit of snark and informed faith.
I’ve been having an ongoing battle with anxiety for a few months now. I’m sure many others have to, given events going on in the world—the death of Osama Bin Laden, concerns about terrorist retaliations, natural disasters, etc.
As a young mom of 2, sometimes it’s difficult not to be anxious about the world my kids are growing up in.
A few months ago, an acquaintance of mine (formerly Catholic) stopped my family and I on the street and gave us the “Judgement Day” pamphlet. Though I don’t hold to Camping’s “calculations”, it distressed me how much my acquaintance had aged in just a year and a half, as he’s been trying to reach out to everyone he knows about May 21st.
As the date has approached, I’ve found that it’s just added to my overall sense of anxiety. Like I’m picking up on what many of Camping’s followers must be feeling, and the anxiety they induce in their friends/family who are likely deeply concerned about them.
I’m just happy for the reminder of the flawed nature of this teaching, and that ultimately, God’s timing is God’s business, and believers need to focus on tapping into the Spirit’s love, peace and wisdom. And above all, pouring our energies into being Jesus in the world. That’s what He’s gonna want to know when our time does come, right? Thanks again!
HA! Put this right there with the Nostradamus quotes! When I start seeing floating people, I’ll start freaking.
Otherwise, a bunch of old guys sitting around writing the words down that are from the little voices in their head, ain’t doing it for me.
I work in a car dealership for a living. I live in Hell, so it would be a break from the routine if it did happen… But it won’t… Probably an eclipse somewhere….
Good posting. I’m depending upon what Our Lord said in the Gospel.
@ Tim: “@Orthodox: Actually, rapture is mentioned in the Bible. Look up 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Now, taking the concept literally is a whole other thing. It could very well refer to a spiritual rapture.”
Again, as a fundamentalist Protest-ant preacher’s kid, I was fully steeped in rapture doctrine and now am working on my masters in Catholic theology with an emphasis in Scripture study. The passage you refer to is NOT one that is used by ‘rapturists’ in supporting their doctrine at all. The ‘rapture’ does not refer to the Second Coming of Christ, it refers to a pre-Second Coming event in which all of the faithful Christians (and in their view that certainly does not include Catholics) suddenly disappear, thereby escaping the Great Tribulation, which will then follow led by the Beast. (There are three camps of believers here…pre-, post- and a-millenialists who disagree on exactly when the snatching occurs,,,before or after the Trib…?!!) The passage from 1 Thess 4 obviously refers to the Second Coming, but in the case of rapture-believers, that is actually the THIRD COMING, since Christ ‘came’ the second time when he snatched the believers away. Nowhere in Scripture is the ‘snatching/disappearance supported at all. The Scripture they use is the ‘so it shall be as in the days of Noah, one will be taken and the other left,” and that is all they have to support their idea (which they have made into a multi=billion dollar industry thanks to Tim LaHaye and Kirk Cameron!) Of course, we believe in the Second Coming as mentioned in the 1 Thess passage, but again that is NOT at ALL what rapture believers are talking about.
The thing is…WHEN EVER have Christians been TAKEN OUT of hard circumstances (as they would be if they escaped the ‘Great Tribulation’?) Didn’t Jesus explicitly say that as he suffered, so his followers SHOULD EXPECT to suffer? Church fathers and early Christian martyrs didn’t try to escape martyrdom, but in fact, LOOKED FORWARD to GETTING to suffer for Christ. True Rapture theology is weak, non-Biblical and basically is for a soft American Christian audience who most likely doesn’t like the thought of suffering for Christ, now or ever.
There are many other ‘arguments’ against Rapture theory. Paul Thigpen, David Currie, and John Martinogni (www.biblechristiansociety.com) are excellent resources that are completely true to Catholic doctrine and teaching. (John’s CD on the rapture is HYSTERICAL as well as informative!)
I’m afraid I’ve already got a booking for this Saturday, so I’ll have to pass on this event.
Harold Camping is plainly a liar and a scam artist.
@ Orthodox, your comments are somewhat off base even if you are a “preacher’s kid.” Believers are to expect trials, testing and difficulties in this life. These are things which the Lord uses to mold, shape and develop our faith. The Great Tribulation is entirely different and Jesus does not intend for His followers to experience the Great Tribulation. Christ specifically addresses His intention for us in Luke 21: 36 ......“But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Furthermore, whether one advocates for pre, post or millenial, there are still many things from Scripture which we will never know this side of Glory.
@ New Observer…wow, that’s quite a take on that verse. Wonder if the early martyrs knew about that one. St. Lawrence who was seared, St. Bartholomew who was skinned, St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, etc, etc etc…the list is endless. What makes us any better than those holy men? Jesus suffered and a servant is not greater than his Master. Catholic teaching on the end times does NOT in any way, shape, or form advocate any rapture theology…do some homework!
Listen Up guys to the “GLORY BE” Prayer
Glory be to the Father and too the Son and to the
Holy spirit
AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINING IS KNOW AND EVER
A “WORLD WITHOUGHT END” Amen. See that guys
He predicted judgement day on 1994,Look what he’s doing again plus he’s 85 or older,And you think a Mortal would predict this?!?,Only God know’s not a scientist not a Witch But only GOD,,,,,
This guy dosnt probobly pray,Guys just Beleive in GOD And jesus and the communion of saints and all that,And just be good people and ready for anything..
But this Guys is a “FAAAAAAAIIIIIILLLLLLLL” Sorry for the beleivers!
-peace out
The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The guy Harold Camping may be wrong but the Catholics are also wrong and the good old book is still right.
Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God, no matter which lie he believes.
@ Orthodox, It might be beneficial for you to digest and comprehend statements fully prior to responding. The sufferings, difficulties and trials of this life are events every Believer should expect as testing of one’s faith. Statements Jesus spoke of regarding the end times are totally different. The end times are the period of Great Tribulation which He warns us to escape.
Alfred D. Smith,
Do you know that it’s we Catholics who determined which books go into the New Testament, which is why no part of it can contradict our church?
It amazes me that people are so dead set on this, taking things like “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” literally, but refuse to acknowledge the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ.
It amazes me how unbiblical the assumptions are, but the truth of the matter is that someone is bound to guess the date right eventually.
One way to guarantee that you will see Jesus on Saturday: Attend Mass.
@Alfred D Smith & Don Schenk
Schenk is right. And let’s not forget it is we Catholics that wrote the NT part of the “good old book”.
I always find it funny when Protestants think that they have to explain to the Catholic Church what her writings “really mean”...It’s like they think The Christian Canon preceded the Catholic Church.
To Commenter of the week: Factually, you are not correct. The great majority of the NT was written by St. Paul who identified himself as a Christian.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. You could keep saying, “the Second Coming will be TODAY…no wait, TODAY…no wait, hold on, TODAY…” This is what all the fundamentalists have done since the 19th Century, and all have come up short. Now, I don’t mean to be a doctrinal snob, but Catholicism has had so many miracles performed over the past 2,000 years, even ones that occurred in the last 100 years like Our Lady of Fatima and the healing stigmata of Padre Pio, which continue to baffle scientists to this day, which not only proves that there is a God, but that the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth. Now someone may object that Fatima and Padre Pio’s miracles were satanic because they were Catholic…well, the Pharisees accused Jesus of working miracles with the help of Satan, even though His miracles led people to glorify God, just as these ones do. “Test everything, so that we may know what is good”.
@ New Observer: But who decided that Paul’s letters were divinely inspired? Nowhere does Paul, or any book of the NT for that matter, make such a claim. When Paul tells Timothy that “all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” he is speaking of the Old Testament. The Christian Canon was not established until the 4th Century AD. Paul’s letters did not magically fly into place with the rest of the NT for Bibles to be mass-produced (they had to have a Magisterium- the Chair of Peter- to make sure what was good and what was heresy.
No honest catholic, can claim to have written any part of the bible because this is God’s word, written by Jews and Christians. You have always been wrong in all of your claims. You claim Christ died on good Friday and rose on Sunday morning. Lie, he died according to the scriptures, and as was prophesied on the evening of the preparation of the pass over sabbath john 19: 14, not a Friday but a Wednesday, and rose on the evening of the weekly sabbath 3 days and 3 nights exactly 72 hours later as he said. You just cannot get the book understood because it is spiritual book and you are carnal and of this world.
@New Observer.
Who stopped Saul on his way to Damascus? Jesus. Who founded the Catholic Church which was the ONLY CHURCH HE EVER INTENDED TO FOUND AND REMAIN IN EXISTENCE? Jesus. Must I go on from here? Or can you fill in the rest of the logical dots from there ... provided if you’re willing to follow them? If you are, I’ve got to advise you: you’re in for a big change in your life because there’ll be only logical step remaining for you to take.
Are YOU up for the challenge?
Jesus was a Jew not a catholic and the church was founded on this Rock, Jesus Christ who prevailed against death and the gates of hell and now he Jesus, not the catholic church has the keys of death an hell. Because he conquered sin for all sinners.
Steven, —-What challenge? Jesus was a Jew. A Jewish rabbi.
Here’s an article about this by a man who used to be in an apocalyptic cult—Jehovah’s Witnesses: http://catholiclane.com/a-few-thoughts-about-judgment-day-and-may-21-2011/
Alfred D Smith,
Wow. O.O Hear that everyone? Catholics aren’t Christians. It’s “Factually correct”
Peter = Petros = Rock, it’s in the name dude. LOL.
Catholics are Christians, and we are the only Christian church for 1000 years until a Schism with the Greek rites. 500 Years after that, Luther and Calvin started to make their move separating from the Catholic Church to preach their own heresies which is the base of your understanding of the Bible today.
You are right to insist that Christians wrote the Bible…it was indeed us.
Actually friend, Peter is just a stone and he too was a Jew not a catholic. Christ is and was the rock, the stone which was cut out of the mountain without hands, Daniel 2:45 on which the church is built. You have been tricked by the old serpent like Eve. Yes you Catholics have written many bibles but the one that you hate, the KJV, would like to replace, get rid of you did not write because it does not support your false teachings and ungodly Idol worship.
http://freddabbot.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/just-one-book/
My dear friend, Alfred D Smith,
I can’t help smile at the similarity of your name with a famous Catholic.
That aside, in Aramaic, the language that Christ and Peter would have been speaking, there is no destinction like in the Greek between Petros and Petra. There is one word, Kephas, for both. I invite you to continue to read the New Testament that we both esteem more closely. Search it prayerfully, asking the Lord for understanding, and you will discover many things. Here is another translation with which you can compare yours: http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/biblesearch.asp As a professional translator, I always recommend referencing different translations. Often neither is perfect.
Sincerely,
Peter, aspiring Saint
are you all a bunch of morons there is no reported earhtquake coming
Mr. Trenholm,
It happens that earthquakes are natural events. We speak of supernatural events: rapture, heaven, Eucharist, etc. In sum, of Godly things.
@Chris Trenholm ... My bookies tell me there’ll be one hell of an earthquake in media world along the northeastern shore if word gets out that Barack Obama and Ann Coulter both come into the Catholic Church together.
Hey DJP! You hit the nail right on the head and I will add that dictator Obama won’t be upset if their was a rapture as it would eliminate the very people that HE wants to get rid of; those of us who can see through his lies, hate and even his witchcraft (oops, top secret there). Come Lord Jesus, come. +JMJ+
i’m going home after work and giving my whole family a hug and tell them i love them and ask God to forgive me and bless me and my family. whos to say its not going to happen.
why not, what do i have to lose. and as for the rev. above that want people to read his ook-is it free? and if not where do all the proceeds go. are ya looking for a way to sell more copies? hmm.?!
It seem to me like every other month there is some new translation of the bible funded by some shadowy Vatican backed organization. Interestingly enough these always claims to be better than the 1611 KJV. How come they are never better than the NKJV the NIV or any of those other powerless imitations? I suppose only the best is worth comparing to.
Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away. It, the 1611 translation just cannot be replaced or be compared to. We have the power.
http://freddabbot.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/just-one-book/
Maybe one of the unmentioned reasons why the debt ceiling hasn’t been raised yet is because the far, far, far, far kook religious right (well, actually wrong)wing of the GOP are hoping for THE END to relieve them of any blame for what’ll happen if they bring the world’s economy tumbling around them this summer for all their foot-dragging just to wring more concessions out of President Obama, not to mention balancing the budgets on the backs of the poor, disabled and elderly. But if these knuckleheads think they’re getting off from Jesus test as highlighted in the Sheep n’ Goats parable, they’ll find themselves in for a lot of “‘splainin’ to do.”
Mr. Smith…
it is so funny to me that you claim a 1611 translation of the Holy Scripture as the basis for comparison of all other translations. 1611?? Hello?? That’s 16 centuries AFTER Christ? Don’t you think there could have been just as significant errors in that time as to those you claim of the ‘shadowy Vatican backed organization’? It also makes me chuckle that you know so little of history as to claim that “Christians’ wrote the Bible. As someone else has correctly pointed out…“Christians” were ONLY Catholics until the Reformation, since there was no other ‘brand’ to be! If you study history, you will see that there has been an unbroken line of faithful people carrying on the mission of Christ since he ascended to heaven until this very day, and until the late 1500s, the people COMPLETELY responsible for that transmission were Catholics. Of course, ‘catholic’ simply means ‘universal,’ so the “Catholic Church” was thought of as the “universal church,” full of what were then known simply as “Christians.” Only after Luther did any think to distinguish what ‘brand’ of follower of Christ they were.
In addition, I find it interesting that you and other non-Catholics (on this topic and those on other blogs) are the ones who are so hateful and nasty. Did it ever occur to you that Jesus was ALWAYS kind to JUDAS? Even tho’ he knew what Judas was going to do, he washed his feet and shared the bread and wine with him; and when Judas kissed him in the Garden, Jesus called him “friend.”
One of the reasons that Christianity looks so absurd to non-believers is because of the dis-unity of Christians. If we put our heads together and worked in unity, as Jesus prayed in John 17, then the devil would have something to worry about. As it is now, he just throws a bit of discord among Christians and then goes about his business, sure that they will destroy each other in the name of their beloved Savior.
Again, if you would simply read some historical documents, perhaps the fathers of the Church—Christian faithful in the few generations after the apostles—you would be amazed. Another interesting read is “How We Got our Bible,” by Howard Graham. Like you, he thought Catholics in error and set out to prove that the Catholic church was not responsible at all for Scripture. His research was incredibly thorough (in the late 19th century) and his findings I’m sure you would find enlightening.
You do not know who will be in the mansion next to yours in Heaven, so you might reconsider your vitriolic words to those of us who may be your future neighbors!
IN Christ,
Suzanne
First let me apologize if my defense of the of the 1611 translation of the bible seem offensive to you Suzanne. However the hate that I have encountered for this book by those, not only of your faith but numerous others has persuaded me that It must be defended with vigor. I love this book more than life itself because it has the words of eternal life for a poor sinner like me. Also because this book is the only one authorized by a king and not a church I hold it in highest esteem. Before this book all other bibles were hand written hence called manuscripts but this one was printed in the English language 400 years ago and every nation that has embraced it has been blessed by God and when they have rejected it they have been brought low. I love it because it is hated by the world, the devil, and the catholic Idolatrous church. Tell me do u love this book or the new copyrighted perversions?
Oh Mr. Smith…I do not need any other humor in my life since you are providing it all!!! What a CRACK=UP you are! The KJV has a notorious translation history that even the secular Wikipedia records:
‘Instructions were given to the translators that were intended to limit the Puritan influence on this new translation. The Bishop of London added a qualification that the translators would add no marginal notes (which had been an issue in the Geneva Bible). King James cited two passages in the Geneva translation where he found the marginal notes offensive. Exodus 1:17, where the Geneva Bible had commended the example of civil disobedience showed by the Hebrew midwives, and also II Chronicles 15:16, where the Geneva Bible had criticized King Asa for not having executed his idolatrous grandmother, Queen Maachah Further, the King gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology of the Church of England. Certain Greek and Hebrew words were to be translated in a manner that reflected the traditional usage of the church. For example, old ecclesiastical words such as the word “church” were to be retained and not to be translated as “congregation”. The new translation would reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and traditional beliefs about ordained clergy.”
And really? You would trust a KING with agendas galore to give you a properly inspired version? There WERE other printed copies before the KJV: The Douhy-Rheims was in 1582 (http://books.google.com/books?id=kofWAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f;=false); the ‘Bishops Bible’, the ‘Geneva Bible,’ and the ‘Great Bible,’ to name a few. King James had many agendas (see above quote) to make himself and his Church of England to appear ‘kosher,’ so he did what Luther did years later…he doctored the wording!
There is NO Scripture scholar of any repute, either Protestant or Catholic who would disagree with the above statements, so you defense is very humorous. You can love ANY translation of Scripture, but good sir, it is not the book you should love more than life itself, it is the SAVIOR who gave His life for you on Calvary’s tree, thereby washing away your sins. The BOOK RECORDS the event that forgave your sins and gives you direction from God’s very mind to guide your future life in Him! It is JESUS you should hold in highest esteem, because it is HE who gave you eternal life, NOT the book. [In addition, you might find it interesting to learn that both Martin Luther AND John Wycliffe believed whole-heartedly in the doctrine of the Real Presence (aka ‘transubstantiation’) and ‘mariology’ which protest-ants now so abhor.]
So please get thee hence to a reputable history book and do thee study some more about the true history of you faith, not some fictionalized “protest-ant” version of it! Prayers and blessings to you! :D
Still waiting to be ruptured!
I was expecting that sooner or later some one would have brought up the mystical topic of Mariology, Revelation 2: 20-23. Is She what your religion is really all about. Your deception is rather shallow because what ever name you call her your Queen of heaven, she is just another demon of hell masquerading as an angel of light hence the mass has but a short time. Christ is the central theme of our faith and the Holy Spirit is our indwelling comforter and teacher. Our faith is in the seed of the woman, not the woman for Mary, his mother was just a sinner like you and I in need of a Saviour. Her children his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas and his sisters which she subsequently bore unto her husband Joseph they too were born sinners in need of a Saviour. They needed Christ to save them for she had no power then and has no power now to save one soul from burning in an eternal burning hell.
Honestly, the idea that one minute I will be sitting her typing and then next I will raptured is ludic
Alfred D.
You’re funny. What you do is akin to rewriting The Lord of the Rings because Tolkien got it wrong. It’s like saying Frodo still has the ring and you know better than the author what really happened. lol. The world received the “Bible” from the Catholic Church. That is historical fact. The Church came first. The Bible came out of the Church. That too, is historical fact. Reality is awesome. You should try it.
You have been so misinformed. You tried to conceal the truth not reveal it
If the world depended upon the catholic church to get the bible we would still be living in the dark ages and bowing down to pictures painted by gay artist like you do. Had it not been for the faithful Greeks scribes that for centuries hand copied the scriptures the mass would still be read in Latin. What the Catholic church has tried to do is confuse the world with her colorful satanic rituals and traditions. That is why you resent the 1611 authorized version because is has exposed you as liars and idol worshipers instead of worshipers of the true God. God promised that he himself will preserve his word in psalm 12: 6 & 7.
Alfred,
Yeah. That’s it. How could I have been such a fool?
I mean Wow. Who knew? Thanks for clearing that up. I’ll switch over to your church first thing tomorrow.
Hilarious.
All the arguing saddens me. My church is better/more rightous/more saved than your church….this is a division I don’t think that our Master wants…it sounds like a bunch of children bickering in a playground about meaningless details to me, truthfully.
I believe that it isn’t a church (or membership in such) that saves you, but is dependant on your personal relationship with christ. I choose not to affiliate with any particular church due to what has turned out to be life long traumas recieved at the “sanctuary” of a church as a child over years of time (no, not catholic either in case you were wondering- and I am just one of many). Like I heard someone say, just because someone closes their eyes and takes their knee when praying (leaders included) doesn’t make them some spectacular christian that is better than someone else- their heart may not be in the right place at all.
I don’t think churches are evil…fellowship is a good thing when we’re talking about people whose hearts are in the right place and who are diligently working the right direction. I think that they are given too much power as an entity, a power that more properly belongs to christ. Churches were supposed to be collections of believers there to support and comfort one another- people meeting on common ground for the glory of their Master. I believe many modern churches have gone beyond this- I have witnessed pretty much church sanctioned cruelty and abuse from the top down (and again not Catholic in case you were wondering - though the faults of individuals associated with that church have been widely and broadly proclaimed).
I also don’t believe any one person ought to just take what someone else interprets the bible to say as the truth…each and every person ought to read the bible for themselves- even different versions, taking others opinions under advisement, and decide what they believe based on what they have found in the bible. We are all responsible for our own relationship with God and responsible to come to know him as best we can. If someone told you something about your best friend that surprised you…would you take that as the total truth or would you go directly to your best friend and ask/clarify. Our Master deserves no less and alot more. We need to be seeking to understand and know our Master and his wishes with all our hearts.
I have met members of the aforementioned church that so clearly are in the right place, and others that so clearly are missing the mark, I have met the similar in other churches and religions. It’s like some people seem to think if they are a member of the “right” church then somehow they have an edge on being right with christ. No matter who you are, or what church you attend or don’t attend, if in your heart you aren’t open to the Lord, seeking a personal relationship with him, direction, and doing your level best to comply with his wishes and understand what those might be then nothing else matters.
Think of this- do you really think your Lord and Master would approve of you going visciously after one of his other possibly very dedicated servants simply because they don’t belong to the same church. I don’t.
I believe he understands that we are just human and it is hard to know, and even those that are dedicated surely will make mistakes along the way. I believe what really matters to him is what is in the heart, the fervent desire to know him and do what he asks to the best of our ability, the willingness to go on any task or errand he asks of us, to believe with all our hearts in him and the suffering he went through for us….simply because he loves us so very much. I think THAT is what matters in the end.
Personally, my church is the open blue sky and the hawks circling lifted up by the gentle breezes, the deer serenely grazing under the trees and the way they in unison lift their heads and gaze at me with liquid eyes. My direction comes from his word and that still small voice. But hey, that is just me. I pray always for forgiveness for lack of understanding or correct action and that I will be granted the understanding and strength I need for what I am asked to do.
My children bounced in the house yesterday from getting off the bus and informed me that we were all going to be taken to heaven tomorrow with buzzing excitement. I laughed and what I told them was this….that the bible is the only information that can be counted on and it says that no one will know when this is going to happen…so that is the end of that. Then I reminded them that in all things the bible is the ultimate authority, so anything that goes against the bible is to be automatically dismissed as a bunch of crap.
Just so it is said, I am no one more special than anyone else, I am a HORRIBLE sinner, even at this very moment- I have been stained throughout with the filth of sin and corruption since the day I was born. I am nothing near what I should be, I am as unworthy as a person can be. I was like a leper on the side of the highway, severely wounded, starving, on the verge of death, in imminent danger and the Master found me, took me in his arms, and whispered to me that it would be ok. Through his word he said that I was with him now and he’d take care of me, I was not alone and I didn’t need to be afraid anymore.
And so he has…under impossible circumstances that would have taken His intevention, I may not have everything I want, but I do have everything I NEED, sometimes just at the last moment. I am just giving my thoughts and opinions for what they are worth.I have a very grateful heart and it bothers me to see what might be otherwise dedicated servants at each others throats - it reminds me of being in the church all over again.
And please, I know some of you are VERY into your churches, and find it to be absolutely neccesary in your lives with the Master - and that is great. We must all jealously guard our relationship with Him and the things that richen that relationship. I, however, have my own chosen church and my own relationship with Him that works for me that I guard with all my might. I am sure if He has a church that he’d like me in, he’ll make that clear to me and I will comply- he knows better than I do about all things.
Also because this book is the only one authorized by a king and not a church I hold it in highest esteem.
Put not your trust in princes, or in any child of man.
Churches were supposed to be collections of believers there to support and comfort one another- people meeting on common ground for the glory of their Master.
Sez who? there is nothing that Paul talks of more in his letters than the importance of discipline in the Church—which would be impossible if Christians were entitled to take themselves off if they didn’t like it, as you claim you had a right to.
I also don’t believe any one person ought to just take what someone else interprets the bible to say as the truth…each and every person ought to read the bible for themselves- even different versions, taking others opinions under advisement, and decide what they believe based on what they have found in the bible.
The Bible doesn’t agree with you. It explicitly says that no scripture is a matter of personal interpretation.
I admire any person that have such a strong faith that they would be willing to die for it. We saints have been dying for this faith that we hold dear for thousands of years and we will continue to die for it because of its eternal unmatched value. God in his word commands each saint as a soldier of the Lord to put on the whole Armour of God and earnestly contend for the faith in this hostile, ungodly, adulterous world that hates us and our Saviour. We are not here to make peace with with the enemy but to preach the gospel to the lost, the gospel which is able to save them that believe and damn them that rejects it. We do not delude ourselves that making a stand on the eternal word of God will make us popular for it did not make our Saviour popular among the leaders however the only way poor people will avoid burning in hell for all eternity is to allow our Saviour to save them by his grace. So to set the record straight there will be no peace treaty between this ungodly world and us.
“Sez who? there is nothing that Paul talks of more in his letters than the importance of discipline in the Church—which would be impossible if Christians were entitled to take themselves off if they didn’t like it, as you claim you had a right to.”
Well you see I take that to mean personal discipline in thought and action, not carte blanche permission for churches to try to run roughshod over people. If I, or anyone else is wrong, discipline and rebuke belongs to the Master, or do you suppose to be of such stature that you can just decide to take that over from Him. I do not answer to you, I answer to Him. I see it irritates you for a person to remove themselves from the hands (and control) of the church and place themselves in the hands of the Lord. That’s a bit sad.
“The Bible doesn’t agree with you. It explicitly says that no scripture is a matter of personal interpretation.”
No, it’s not…but it is also most unwise to take what someone else says that it contains at face value and not look into it yourself as many tend to do. If you tell me that the flood lasted for 41 days and 41 nights…I’m going to go to the bible and based on what it says I am going to make the decision that you are WRONG and I am going to believe it was 40 days and nights.
I am sorry that my decision to not just blindly follow any church offends you. But like I said I am well aware of who I answer to in the end.
Well you see I take that to mean personal discipline in thought and action.
It is not. Paul clearly and openly calls for some people in the church to discipline others.
And you are insisting on your personal interpretation on the Bible, in defiance of the Bible.
Every saint according to the word of God is a priest of God with the great privilege of walking into the throne room of God at any time and as often as he like and talking to the father for himself and for others also. This authority has been purchased for us with the blood of Christ God’s only begotten son. Therefore the power of the man made organization that men refer to as the church has no power over the saint who is part of the church, the bride of Christ. freddabbot@yahoo.com
Someone? Yes. The Teaching Authority of the Church given to the Apostles and their successors are not just “someone”. They are the God appointed guardians of said Scripture. Precisely to avoid the kind of stuff you guys are spouting here. He’s a smart guy. He saw this comin’ even before he counted the hairs on your head.
He also saw the evil that the church organization would be involved in throughout the world, gay priest, Idolatry, unscriptural rituals the setting up of the ungodly papacy the whole 9 yards. So he made each of us saints priest and kings to avoid that cesspool of sin called the Vatican.
“It is not. Paul clearly and openly calls for some people in the church to discipline others.
And you are insisting on your personal interpretation on the Bible, in defiance of the Bible. “
I don’t believe I ever insisted anything….I said I take that to mean…if you are saying that I am wrong I have to take that under advisement and read the applicable matter carefully from the bible and see the particulars of who, where and when.
I do know the bible said
(Acts 5:29 KJV)
(29) Then Peter and the {other} apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
and
(1 Peter 2:13-20 KJV)
(13) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; (14) Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. (15) For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: (16) As free, and not using {your} liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. (17) Honour all {men}. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. (18) Servants, {be} subject to {your} masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. (19) For this {is} thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. (20) For what glory {is it}, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer {for it}, ye take it patiently, this {is} acceptable with God.
I find it astonishing,however, that you seemingly fail to grasp that I am already in the body of christs congregation by my call out to Him for his grace and to be saved, whether or not I choose to attend any one church of any particular denomination.
(1 Corinthians 12:12-28 KJV)
(12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also {is} Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether {we be} Jews or Gentiles, whether {we be} bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many.
I am already under His discipline and I well know it. I also find it astonishing that you seem not to trust in the Master to guide me to where I need to be according to Him (I’m sorry he isn’t taking into account what you or another might want for me - we’ll have to trust in Him to know best…know what I mean? - if you have complaints, please take it up with Him)
Rom 14:10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
and
Rom 14:1-4
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (KJV)
Mary, you seem to be on the verge of confrontational. You don’t simply point out that the bible says this about that subject….you might want to go look it up at xxx.xxx.xxx, in a kind manner. You use words like insist when no one has insisted.
You are apparently big on control and discipline, fair enough. I AM on a catholic chat board and for centuries the catholic church has been into control and discipline of its members- it seems like it must be a cornerstone of their beliefs…I shouldn’t be surprised.
If you were hoping to browbeat me to a church, you failed. Some would turn away from the Lord as well based on your words and approach and that is a horrible thing. Shades of the past all over again.
I just praise the lord over and over again that he has found me where a peoples church left me broken,alone and cast aside like a leper and made me understand that I already belong to the congregation that really matters. Not you nor anyone else can get between me and my Master. I trust that he has a plan for me and even a gathering of believers that he has chosen for me to fellowship with when he has gotten me to where he needs me to be…will it be in a formal building named a church with a formal denomination? Maybe, maybe not. Back in the old days there were no churches, it was people who believed gathering wherever they could gather to share and support (yes with fit leaders to guide and counsel them and when neccesary show them the error of their ways). In fact the term church is a term that King James insisted be used instead of the word gathering or congregation to support his own agenda. Any gathering, any place two or more come together in his name is pleasing to him- and THAT, I do.
I just understand that members of the congregation I belong to exist in all christian denominations. None of us is better than the other or more saved and if we believe someone else to be wrong, we can lovingly suggest so but in the end they answer to the Master just like we do and they alone are responsible for that.
I don’t claim to be a saint, priest or anything of the like, I am not worthy of such titles. But I will fiercely defend to my last breath my direct connection to and responsibility to my Lord.
With all due respect, I refuse to get into further debate with you about where you are right and I am wrong or where you are wrong and I am right. It’s pointless and I think possibly destructive. Thank you for the tip on Peter’s letters, I’ll be looking into that. And Alfred, precisely, thanks….
You’ll have to take it up with Him if you ever get to meet Him. We didn’t set the system up. He did. If He saw the flaws (and there are many…I didn’t realize that Protestant Churches didn’t have gay members)He also saw to it that the Church that HE INSTITUTED, would self correct. We may have our problems, but at least we are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, per Jesus’ instructions. You, sadly, ignored that edict, and became your own authority. How do I know? By the way you just spoke of His Mother, His Church, Her members and His visible Authority on earth. Lucy, you’re gonna have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do…
“But Lord, I didn’t liiiiiiiiike the Church that you instituted. I called your Mother a follower of Satan and I hated all those creeps who honored her. I hated the guys you left in charge and that whole business about eating your flesh??? Ewwwwwww…oh, wait a minute….where have I heard that before? Oh yes…John 6:52. But Goooooood, you were wrong! You should have listened to me!!! My way was so much better….”
Yeah, that’ll fly.
when u show me from the scriptures where he said to follow any mother, father, organization made by man or devil then i will entertain you. Right now you have no feet to stand on. The scriptures do not support your claim. The church is his bride. his body, us…not the ungodly organization that you promote.
Alfred:
1 Timothy 3:15
Matthew 18:17
Matthew 16:18
...just for starters.
Heck Joanne (good work btw) ALL of 1 Timothy 3!
But I fear you’re going to get the tired old…He was talking about Himself. As if that made any sense! for Matthew 16. Funny how they’ll accept Bishops and Deacons, authors of protestant books with no authority, the milkman and Paul, let’s not forget Paul (I wonder if they realize that they worship Paul???), before they will accept priests or the Authority of the Pope. Did you know that the Bread of Life discourse was a metaphor??? lol.
They also make no distinction between the WORD and the Words of God. I can’t believe that they aren’t all thin as rails what with all of the exercise they get jumping through those hoops…enter Cradle Catholic and TwelveOaks…
Seriously, Alfred, I wouldn’t be so sarcastic to a Protestant who honestly wanted to discuss Scripture, but I’ve been here and done that, and people like you have no desire to learn, listen or discourse. You lost me when you dissed Jesus’ Mother. Whether you think we give her too much credit or not, she is STILL HIS MOTHER. How would you like it if someone talked about your mother that way? This is the Mother of Jesus, your saviour. You’d think you’d show at least a modicum of respect!
Hi everybody!
I like most of the writings because they help me a lot. But I feel that we are a little bit out of track. Let us now focus on what the issue has been meant to be. Maybe someone had raised it, if not can I asked (or once again) those who had claimed that the world will be end on the 21 of May? According to the day and the date of the country I am now is 2:38am, 22/05/2011 (Sunday), and I’m still waiting for the end of the world! Come-on guys, maybe God is forget His promise or His prophecy, why not wake Him up or remind Him!
And that what was make me really sick about those who have read the bible outside what it is meant to be. No matter how smart we can figure out numbers, words, etc but we still cannot read the mind of God when He has inspired OT/NT writers.
For those who read the bible outside the real meaning of it, they need a lot of study on the bible to figure it out. I’m not a bible student, but I know that misinterpreting of the bible causes a lot of misunderstanding. This is not the first time that the bible is misinterpreted, many many and many men and women had tried to say the world will be ended by reading and interpreting the bible outside what the bible is meant to be, but what happened!
Faulty interpreters, stop playing around with the bible unless you know about it well. What a real big mistake interpreting the message of God for the self-sake!
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. The church is the local body to which one is affiliated in this instance but the church the bride of Christ is the collection of all saints Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
1Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the foundation on which the church is built not Peter and it is Jesus not the Church that prevailed against the gates of hell in 3 days and 3 nights when he went there and conquered death and hell and now has the keys of both.
Mary considered herself a sinner like you and I are. Jesus considered her a sinner also. What made Mary special is not that she brought Christ into the world but that she trusted and accepted Christ as her Lord and Saviour…just like I did.
I hope this helps someone who has been misled into believing that she has some powers to save sinners. Only Christ does.
To say the truth about someone is not disrespectful…it is honest…Jesus told Nicodemus unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God…this is the truth it is not disrespectful…disrespectful is when you deceive people…sometimes the truth can be painful
Lol Alfred,
You demand the passage that tells us that Mary is our Mother, and then turn around and claim that Jesus thought His mother was a sinner…yer killin’ me here. And that particular passage would be where?
As for the Truth…there is a world of difference between sharing your opinion and being downright rude. Let’s just say that I now know your opinion and you put the “R” in rude.
Again, I’m sure Jesus will appreciate your take on His mother. There are theological reasons for believing in Mary’s sinless nature. From your comments however, I fear those reasons are over your head. Let’s just say that when it comes down to a choice between the interpretation of Scripture according to the God appointed Holy Mother Church and say…oh I don’t know…The Gospel according to Alfred…it’s a no brainer.
Luke 1:46- 50 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOUR.
For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Mary was wise and humble enough to know that she was God’s Hand maid and that she was also a sinner in need of a saviour. That teaching that a woman that had four sons and a number of daughters for her husband Joseph did this while maintaining her virginity as so ridiculous and unscriptal that it could only come through the lunacy of the Vatican from the pit of hell. Yes Jesus is virgin born but none of Mary’s other children were. Joseph her husband, was the father of all the others. Truth is often shocking, frightening, disarming but never rude.
Yes Alfred, Mary was saved by her Son. She was not BORN with Sin however, as she was uniquely saved before she was conceived. As for her other “children”...this is what comes from interpreting the bible on your own, and pulling passages out of context. You’re confusion comes from a misunderstanding of Original Sin and what it was that Jesus saved us FROM. You believe, erroneously, that we are “stamped” worthy to be looked at by God, by virtue of an intellectual assent to His reality. We believe we are actually CHANGED, and no longer have the stain of Original Sin after baptism. Mary was “baptized” before she was conceived. Hence she was conceived stainless, and sinless. Just as Abraham, Moses and others were saved post death.
No, the Truth is never rude. But people are. As you have so aptly proved.
It is written in the scriptures; There is none righteous, no not one for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. None of Adam’s race is excluded from this indictment, Mary, Abraham, Jacob no one is excluded. That is scripture, that is true.
I say (tongue in cheek), the Rapture is STILL coming—in 7 or 8 days!
You see, this Camping chap calculated it from the Julian calendar, but we’re on the Gregorian calendar, which has 10 days difference from the Julian. (I haven’t thought hard enough to figure out if we may have collected an extra day or so since the conversion to the Gregorian.)
Alfred,
Yes. All have sinned. Meaning all have the stain of original sin which we inherited from Adam. But Baptism removes that stain. Mary had that stain removed before she was conceived and was FULL of Grace which enabled her to remain sinless after birth. She didn’t do it on her own. It was her Son that made it possible. You see, Catholics don’t read Scripture the way you do. We don’t take it one line at a time, pulling it out of context. ALL of scripture must be read with the rest of scripture in mind. No passage stands alone. And none of it is to be read “literally” although we do read it with what is called a literal sense. But that means that we take into account the time period, the message, the writer, the place…You guys just take it word for word and miss the meanings.
For instance Roman 3:11 also states that there is no one who seeks God. Do you take that literally also?
What Paul is saying is that everyone has a tendency towards sin because everyone bears the stain of Adam and Eve. Mary had that stain removed BEFORE she was conceived, but like the rest of us, she had to have it removed. She too was saved. Just a little earlier than the rest of us.
Clarification: I wrote that Mary was “baptized” before she was conceived but it occurs to me that not everyone will catch the nuance indicated by the quotes…Mary was not baptized. Ever. She was saved from the stain of original sin (tho not the temporal consequences ie: pain, suffering, sorrow)not from baptism, but by the same Grace that saves those of us who are baptized. The Grace that only comes through Jesus. She was not baptized. We are baptized. It is the same Grace conferred in different ways. She was also full of grace (the greek word for this particular grace used only twice in Scripture) and this Grace kept her from sinning post conception. She was not divine. But she was divinely graced, in a singular way.
Alfred….
Ditto what MK says! Here’s an example: There are two ways you could save someone’s life. You could rescue them from the deep hole they fell into OR you could cover the hole so that they never fell in in the first place. WE have fallen in the hole, so to speak, with our sin and were in need of a savior. Mary, of course, no Catholic would argue, also needed a savior, but in her case God essentially ‘covered the hole,’ ie saved her PRIOR to the crucifixion,,,prior to her birth, even. [Since God isn’t bound by time, he could do that; since he is not bound by time, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, et al, were saved by the cross, even tho it happened AFTER they lived!]
How do we know this (about Mary)? A couple of ways: 1) The word used in Luke 1 for Gabriel’s greeting to Mary “Hail, full of grace” in Greek is ‘keharitomene’ and there is no exact translation into English because it’s a tense that we don’t have. It means that the action was done prior to the event, is continuing during the event, and will continue after the event—in other words, the action being done was/is always being done. So Mary was ‘full of grace’ prior to Gabriel’s announcement, during his announcement, and continuing after his announcement.
2) The word “overshadow” that Gabriel uses in his pronouncement (“the power of the most High will overshadow you…”) is only used in ONE OTHER PLACE and that is in Ex 40 the Ark of the Covenant is described as having the “Shekinah/glory’. That’s why it’s important to know the actual words, how they are used in the original Greek/Hebrew. That tells us a ton!
There are SO many other example of this but I seriously doubt that you are paying much attention. Every time someone here has made a (very charitable) point, you completely ignore it and go right on in your own little way of thinking without evening considering what’s being said (very similar to making up an argument in your head while the other person is talking, thereby not even hearing their point.) There is no way that dialogue and learning from each other can happen with that kind of attitude. In addition, every time you make a ‘point’ by quoting some passage, you show your complete and utter ignorance of Scripture. Not to mention you are rude and confrontational in the process. That in and of itself negates any point you might ever make. Jesus calls us to love each other, even our enemies. Obviously, you think that we are your enemies here since you so vehemently disagree with us and have said such nasty things about our beliefs. Hence, since we are your enemies, it seems if you were obeying Scripture, you should be loving us!
Since becoming Catholic (from a fundamentalist upbringing,,,so I know where you are coming from), I have learned SO much about Scripture, reading it in context, in the fullness of the entire Scripture, ie the Old and New Testaments work together beautifully and seamlessly. I am completely confident that God works in and thru the sinful, yet redeemed, humans who make up the Catholic church. It would behoove you to just tone it down a bit and think—really think about, not just spout your interpretation—‘think on these things’, since you may end up having to eat some of your words when you stand before the judgment seat of Christ (and tell him his mother is a piece of nothing?!)
If Jesus tarries: Follow-up on the actual supernatural event predicted by Jimmy, which occurred as scheduled—and the apocalyptic sign in the sky that accompanied it!
If ALL have sinned, why do we call Jesus Christ the Sinless One? And if the qualifier “all” doesn’t include Christ, because as God he was conceived free from sin, couldn’t we also say that he also preserved his Mother free from sin from the moment of her conception?
By the way, Harold Camping figured that last Saturday, May 21, was exactly 7,000 years after Noah’s flood. And yet his followers spent their life savings to warn the rest of us; pray for them.
And Alfred,
You want to know were the Bible says to obey the Church, because it speaks for Christ?
Matthew 16:18-19
Matthew 18:17-18
Matthew 28:18-20
Mark 16:15-16
Luke 10:16
John14:16,26
John 16:13
John 20:23
1 Timothy 3:15
Go thou and do likewise.
Oh, and after Thomas Nelson released a reprinting of the 1611 King James, Jack Chick went from claiming that it was the ONLY Word of God to claiming that it was a Jesuit fraud: after all, it included a lectionary which includied feast days and readings from “the Apocrypha.” (Which King James Bibles had until Puritans had them removed—in the early 20th century the Archbishop of Canterbury refused to accept a King James Bible because it was “mutilated” with the removal of the Apocrypha.)
Modern-day Puritans use, not he 1611 King James, but a 18th century revision.
@ the mk post addressed to Alfred Smith:
“There are theological reasons for believing in Mary’s sinless nature. From your comments however, I fear those reasons are over your head.” AND
“She was also full of grace (the greek word for this particular grace used only twice in Scripture) and this Grace kept her from sinning post conception.”
There are church “opinions” concerning what you believe to be Mary’s sinless nature, yet there are far greater and biblical reasons to not believe in Mary’s sinless nature one being by virtue of her own Magnificat. Do not confuse opinion which runs contrary to Scripture. Her (Mary’s) need to be saved is verified by her own declaration stated in “God my (her) Savior” to Gabriel. Furthermore, we (all Christians) have been saved by grace yet even we also continue to sin while in the flesh. To understand this in no way diminishes nor is disrespectful to Mary’s role as the earthly mother of the incarnate Son of God. There is no need to embellish her role beyond what we know has been authenticated. To do so is only speculative and opinion.
New Life,
The Church doesn’t have “opinions”. That’s the point. You have opinions. You answer to no authority but yourself. God appointed the Church as the Guardian of Truth. I’m pretty sure there is no Scriptural reference to you being said Guardian. When you answer to the authority that God has put forth, you are answering to God. You answer to yourself. THAT’S called opinion.
Honestly, do you people even bother to read what we write? 3 times now, we have said that YES, Mary needed to be saved. And she was SAVED BEFORE SHE WAS CONCEIVED. Argue with that if you must, but at least read our answers before you go on about what has already be addressed.
Thanks to Don and Orthodox. Excellent comments.
a)It would be really nice though if when you make statements like ‘Mary was saved before she was she was conceived’ that you put the chapter and the verse from the scripture alongside this statement as support. It would help us that depend only upon the Bible to read it for ourselves and then compare it with the rest of the scriptures.b) The idea that I hate you because I disagree with your belief is so far from the truth. It is just that I love Christ and his truth that he have given to us in his word, his word that will remain long after heaven and earth is passed away; that I judge every thing in light of this eternal word. I however hold you in the highest esteem and admire the way that you stand for what you believe. I think that needed to be said. I will continue to fight with you using every verse of scripture that God bring to my heart. please do not see this as disrespect for you but love for the God that saved me from hell and told me to earnestly contend for the faith that was handed down us by the fathers; for many deceivers have gone out into the world.
Saint of God attired in the whole Armour I am here to fight. freddabbot@yahoo.com
Fred, I’m assuming you don’t believe in the Trinity, then? After all, the word “Trinity” never appears in Scripture; therefore it must be false.
Right?
Playing with words like Trinity, Rapture and such like is the pastime of the intellectuals…I am by no stretch of the imagination an intellectual. I seek sound bible verses to support what I believe, not the whimsical words of men 1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Like my commander and chief Jesus Christ always said ‘It is written’. It need to be written in order for anyone to pin their faith to it.
@ mk who wrote:
“The Church doesn’t have “opinions”. That’s the point. You have opinions. You answer to no authority but yourself. God appointed the Church as the Guardian of Truth.”
The church has no opinions? Your idea that Mary was saved prior to conception is opinion. That Mary was a perpetual virgin all her life is opinion. The Magisterium report issued last week placing blame for the clergy scandal on the 60’s and 70’s sexual revolution is opinion. Right, the church has no opinions. (You people) are your own authority and accept such declarations as truth without foundational support.
Well, Alfred, we do the same… and all Catholic doctrines, including ones about Mary, are found in Scripture. Some are explicit, and some are implicit (just like the Trinity). See here for the Scriptures that support Catholic doctrine about Mary:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
New Life,
On matters of morals and doctrine? No. The Catholic Church does not have opinions. What they have is objective Truth. I can’t imagine how the Catholic Church got along for 1500 years with Luther, but somehow she did.
Jesus instituted a Church. He handed the authority to lead that Church over to an apostle who continued to hand in down for the last 2,000 years. That’s history. That’s fact. That is objective Truth and that is NOT opinion.
What you believe IS opinion. Your opinion. Luthers opinion. Calvins opinion. You use Scripture as your only source of Truth when Scripture itself forbids this and says nothing to back it up. Do you honestly believe that for 1500 years the Church, the ONLY CHURCH, was getting it all wrong and if not for Luther, what? We’d still be getting it wrong.
Take the time to look at the links that everyone here has so generously provided. Then get back to us.
The Catholics has no scripture to support their doctrine on Maryology or they would have brought them forward a long long time ago. Your teaching is actually based in Baal worship and the attempt to marry this ungodly practice with Christianity. That is why you are unable after all these years to present scripture to support your flimsy claims. The woman with the sun around he head that is sometimes refereed to as a halo is not even Mary but Ishtar from whom we get the name Easter which has nothing what so ever to do with Christianity and was around thousands of years before Christ was born and the baby is not Jesus but Tomas that rises from the dead. Jeremiah 7: 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Alfred,
Try to follow this. We aren’t giving you the Scripture passages because we don’t need them. We do not believe in Sola Scriptura. We believe that the Truth stands on three legs. 1. Scripture 2.Sacred Tradition 3. the Teaching authority of the Church.
This means that each thing that comes up gets looked at through ALL THREE of those lenses. Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, here on Earth, and named Him Cephas…the Rock, and upon that human rock, the kingdom of heaven here on earth would be built. The kingdom IN heaven is a different story. Peter was made royal steward, keeper of the keys, the guy in charge while the king is away. When the King returns, Peter will give back the keys. Those keys signified AUTHORITY. Given to Peter alone, and subsequently to every Pope that came after Him. To the other apostles He gave the gift of the Priesthood. What Peter binds here on earth, will also be bound in heaven. Authority. This means that when we come upon a phrase or passage in Scripture that we don’t understand or only THINK that we DO understand, we look to see what the Church has said…what the TEACHING AUTHORITY, appointed by Jesus, says.
ONLY then do we say that we understand a Scripture Passage. We also have Sacred Tradition. Tradition with a capital “T”. This is not like customs. This means, as John says, that there was TOO MUCH to write down, and some of it has been passed down through the ages orally, or in the writings of the Church Fathers (which are not considered canonical…they are not Scripture). The Teaching Authority of the Church, looks at what the Early Fathers taught us, look at what was done from the beginning, put it together with Scripture and TEACH US.
The doctrines on Mary come from some Scripture COMBINED with Sacred Tradition and the Teaching Authority of the Church. How do we know the Teaching Authority can be trusted? Because it is the Holy Spirit Himself, acting and speaking through the Pope. To disobey the Pope on matters of morals and doctrines is to disobey the Holy Spirit…
So, no, my friend, we cannot give Scripture Passages that explicitly state that Mary was conceived without Original Sin or that she was Assumed into heaven, body and soul. But we CAN show you passages that allow us to REASON that this must be so. If this, then that.
AND we can show you that from the earliest days of the Church, these things have been believed (Sacred Tradition). We are only continuing to do what the FIRST Christians did. And those first Christians are known as CATHOLICS.
Here, you might find this interesting….
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/history.html
Now looking at that list, you tell me which Church I should belong to.
The names have been changed to confused the ignorant but Baal worship is against God and God is against Baal worship. Fodder for the fire that’s what you are making of yourselves.
I love you none the less and if you would call upon Christ he is faithful and just to forgive you of all sin and to clense you from all unrighteousness.
Alfred,
HOLY MOLY! I’ve been trying to get one of you to admit to that for years.
Do you honestly not see what is wrong with that???? We do not believe something and THEN look for Scripture Passages to back us up. Good Heavens, I could believe ANYTHING if I did that. We READ the Scriptures and let them tell US what to believe. We don’t seek sound bible verses to support what we believe…We believe what the Bible verses tell us. No wonder you guys are so confused.
Name me any other book in the world, where you go in telling the book what you want it to say! I can see it now…think I’ll call the Bronte sisters and tell them they got it wrong. After all. It doesn’t jive with what I beleive…Unbelievable. It’s not about you and what you believe. Do you get that??? It’s about the Truth! God grant me patience…Atheists are SO much easier! ;)
The names have been changed to confused the ignorant but
WHAT NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED????
mk, you do not know what I believe so you presume too much. I must say your style and attitude does not come across as a welcoming Catholic Christian but rather hostile and insulting to people.
It is so sad how you misrepresent the scripture just like Satan did in the garden of Eden when he tricked Eve and when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. The church was not could not be built upon Peter but Jesus Christ the solid rock according to the scriptures, tradition we that are wise reject outright. Peter was never a pope…that is a lie from the pit of hell…Judas Iscariot the son of perdition perhaps but never peter and Judas the son of perdition will be your last pope when he is released from the bottomless pit for a short time. That will be your moment in the sun. I doubt that you will enjoy it because you will experience the wrath of God pored out without mixture on the seat of the beast.
The scripture stands alone and unshakable on the promise of God. No tradition, no authority of the Vatican is needed to support it. It is written.
New Life,
Yeah, well, I tend to get that way when The Mother of God is referred to as the spawn of Satan, my Church is called the pit of hell and Jesus’ teachings are referred to as opinion. If that’s your idea of Christian Charity then you should think about how you sound to us. I don’t visit people in their homes and start tellin’ ‘em I think they have terrible taste, their kids are brats and their husband is a devil worshiper. This is a Catholic Website…you are guests here. Simple, common courtesy is the least you could show. I realize that you were not nearly as confrontational as Alfred, but you walked into a heated conversation. If some of my anger spilled over to you inadvertently, I apologize. Trouble is, no matter how patiently we try to explain our side, it seems that you guys never actually listen. There is never any real conversation. There is just “prove it to me with Scripture” over and over and over. We explain, and explain and explain…but you aren’t really interested in hearing what we have to say. It’s frustrating in the least, fightin’ words at worst. What would you have us do? How would you like us to answer you? Tell me. For years I have been trying to figure out how to get you guys to actually talk…I wasn’t always so snippy with you…but it didn’t matter how nice I was. I finally realized that all my research, all my looking up Scripture passages, all the gentle explanations, don’t matter. It’s like debating with a robot. So help me. What would make this go better?
It is written.
And who collected those books? And what did Peter and Paul and John read? Was there a New Testament that I don’t know about? Where did the first Christians get their info? There WAS NO BIBLE until 300 years after Jesus died. So what did those poor saps do?
You never told me, Alfred, which of those Churches should I belong to? The one that has been around for 2,000 years? Or one of the new ones? Which new one? Why?
It is so sad how you misrepresent the scripture just like Satan did in the garden of Eden when he tricked Eve and when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness.
Okay. I just spit my tea everywhere! What Scripture was that, that our serpent was reading and misrepresenting? Good Gravy, even the OLD TESTAMENT wasn’t around then! Oh Alfred, give it up. You might think you have Scripture on your side, but logic left the building years ago! THINK. THINK. THINK. Satan misrepresented Scripture….that’s a good one.
The Catholics has no scripture to support their doctrine on Maryology or they would have brought them forward a long long time ago.
What? Alfred, I provided you with an extensive list:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
Also, can you tell me where the doctrine of sola scriptura is found in Scripture? I can’t seem to find it.
Revelation 22:18-20 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Some one asked about the teaching of scripture only.
God was constantly in conversation with Adam in the garden of Eden. God’s word to Adam was the scripture that Satan attacked when he spoke to his bride.
God has always been against the worship of Baal, the Queen of heaven or what ever name what ever name your religion chooses to call itself.
Alfred, any comments on the Scripture passages that support Catholic Mariology?
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
Also, I don’t understand why you think “Queen of Heaven” is another name for “Baal.” Where is that found in Catholic teaching? Or in Scripture, for that matter?
I would read the story of King Solomon and pay especial attention to Bathsheba’s role as the Queen Mother. Her role in that capacity prefigures Mary. Also look for the similarities between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary, who is the Ark of the New Covenant. You can read more about that here:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp
Alfred,
Here’s how it usually works in a conversation. I say something, then you answer me. You say something then I answer you. See? We LISTEN to each other and acknowledge what the other has said. So when you ask for Scripture passages and we give them to you, you might say, oh, that’s interesting, but how about this one. Then we’d say something like, well, we read that passage to mean…
As you have decided to have a conversation with yourself and no one else, I think it might be time to bow out. I can’t help but wonder if you actually believe that you will reach anybody with your particular style of evangelizing. Cuz ain’t no one here listening to a word your sayin’. Not because we don’t want to, but because obviously you aren’t interested in actually exchanging ideas. Perhaps you need a new hobby?
For your own benefit, it helps in these debates to actually know what the other side believes before you go ripping it to shreds. Take some time to get to understand what it is you’re disagreeing with. THEN try to debate it. As it is, you sound like a petulant 4th grader. Stamping your foot and typing “Baal” over and over is not what adults do when conversing. Saavy?
So that you do not assume that you have not been successful in informing me of your belief I assure that you have. If you are assuming that I am open to persuasion then I assure you that like Christ my face is set toward the Cross. That I am not side tracked by your asking me to go and study your tradition on the link that you sent me is because I have thoroughly studied yours and many other man made religions and have learned after many years how to cut to the chase. You believe that the Scriptures are the word of God as long as they do not conflict with your tradition and your tradition is the edits of God as long as they do not conflict with any new church edit. Your beliefs are not new so be not frustrated because I appear not to be listening to you. It just happen that I hear what you say because it is nothing new and I know what you mean because that too is nothing new. I am a very simple person. I believe in black and white, right and wrong, left and right and that God is not the author of confusion. Neither of us can be persuaded that the other is right…that I also know.
Oh Alfred,
It is not possible that you have studied the Faith when you make statements like Satan misinterpreted Scripture in the Garden of Eden, or that Mary, the Mother of Our Lord is the God Baal in disguise. What you have done is gone to anti Catholic websites and bought into their hatred and lies. You are not interested in the Truth. You think you are, but you are deluded. People who are interested in the Truth do not make statements like yours. You are part of a Cult and perhaps in innocence, but surely in ignorance, have bought into all of the lies. I have asked you dozens of questions which you have ignored. There is only one that I really want to hear your answer to…which of those Churches should I belong to. You claim to know. You claim that you have discovered the Truth. You claim that I am misguided. So enlighten me oh wise one…which of those Churches encompasses your version of the Truth, and why? On whose authority? When you answer that question, we can continue to talk…
Alfred, my man!
I dislike nothing more than when people tell other people what they believe. You think you’ve understood the other arguments, and you’re cutting to the chase. But it makes it very frustrating for the others to try to converse with you when you already know their arguments. at least you think you do. I am sure that if you listen carefully, you don’t already know there arguments. Just your exposition a little less than 30 minutes ago purports to list “Catholic” beliefs that I as a Catholic disagree with: Scripture is not belittled or neglected. I do not accept scripture only as long as it does not conflict with my tradition. But if you want to read a beautiful treatise on the Scripture, take a look at this recent writing on the divine Inspiration and Truth in Scripture: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html
As to your quote from Revelation 22, I ask, what book is it talking about? The Bible was not yet formed… I submit that it referred to the Book of Revelation. The Bible is a collection of many books, all of them Divinely inspired and all of them Holy and True. At the time the Book of Revelation was written though, the Bible was not yet defined as such.
Alfred, I’m confused. You claim to follow Jesus but you insult and abuse the Church that He established, and you insult and abuse His Mother.
Jesus certainly honored His Mother as it would have been against the Commandments to do otherwise (“Honor thy father and mother.”) Mary even said “all generations shall call me blessed” and Elizabeth told her she was “blessed among women.” This is straight from Scripture.
Given all this Scriptural evidence, why do you insult and abuse Mary?
Alfred,
When are you going to get around to noticing that in Revelation 22:18 john writes, “If anyone ADDS to [the words of this book], God will add to him the plagues that are written.”?
Don’t add to the words of Revelation, just go with what it says: That “the rest of [Mary’s] offspring [are] tose who keep the comandments of God and have the testimony about Jesus [the Church]” (Rev. 12:18)
By the way, Baal means “my master” or “my husband,” not a word that anyone applied to a woman.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Except, of course, that’s the Book of Revelation it’s referring to, so if it means what you say it means, it means more: namely, that Revelation is the sole scripture.
The Bible was never bound into one book until they had codices, which was early in the Christian era, but later than that.
Alfred,
Have you ever considered that your Christian sect has branched off from the teachings of the Only One Church 500 years ago? Have you ever considered that Protestantism was founded on the basis of Catholicism? That Protestantism took some of the traditions and the Bible from the Catholic Church, changed the Canon of the OT to the ones the Jews are using presently?
If you think you truly think the Catholic Church is Apostate, and that your religion is the “right one”, then I have to say, that it is impossible for one to salvage something from an Apostate and make it fully true again. You have taken with you some of the Traditions of the Catholic Church, spun it off, and remixed it into your own.
There is no reason to quote from our Book the Bible. Because quite frankly, anyone can take any passage from the Bible and twist its original meaning to satisfy what they want to believe.
Look at the Jehovah’s Witness. I have to commend them, they can make some really compelling arguments that Jesus is not God through the very Bible we wrote.
What makes your sect right from the 33,000+++ Protestant sects of Christianity? Why don’t you go after them instead of us? Are the numbers daunting to you? Wanna go after the Original I see…
Catholics aren’t trained to Cite Bible Verses to Battle out Protestants because in our Sermons, our priests never have to CONSTANTLY JUSTIFY OUR CATHOLICISM ON THE BASIS OF PROTESTANTISM.
It is Protestantism that must be justified against Catholicism to hold its members.
Every, any tiny gathering can claim to be the church which Jesus established. You can claim to be the mother of Harlots and every protestant church you can claim as your daughters and I will not argue with you. Many of you joins with the rulers of the Pharisees and call My Lord Jesus Christ “that deceiver” claiming that his 3 day and 3 night sojourn into the heart of the earth was a blatant miscalculation. They too say good Friday to Sunday morning 2 nights and 1 day? A million different liars cannot make a lie the truth. It has always been this way Elijah verses the establishment, Jeremiah,Moses, John the baptist, we have always stood alone against the established church that numbers, wealth and Satan on their side and so far we have never lost even though you thought we did when you killed us. Jesus himself stood and stands like a colossus against the wealthy, worldly, establishment the church. The book the bible is established in eternity, before even the foundation of the world was laid it was written. Lay no claim to that master piece, you hate it because it contradicts everything that you stand for, every God and Goddess that you worship. you must tremble at the pending wrath of God against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men that hold the truth in unrighteousness, and well you may. I do not attack you I attack him that stands behind you for you are but straw for the fire. Why do the heathen rage and set themselves against the Lord and against his anointed saying lat us break their bands asunder and cast away their cords from us. My kingdom is not of this world so unless a man is born again he cannot see it. Stop looking to the corrupt man made organization called the ‘church’ If the Holy Spirit is speaking to you he will guide you into all truth. The Church will seek to guide you away from the word of God which is the truth.
Alfred,
What Jesus said was that he would rise on the third day, not 36 hours later. You should read your Bible more carefully.
And the Bible may have been established from all eternity, but the New Testament was written by human beings in the first century A.D., and the Church argued over which books belong in the New Testament into the 4th century—into the 16th century, if you count Martin Luther’s rejection of books like James (because it said “faith without works is dead,” James 2:26) and Revelation. And the original 1611 King James Bible included the Apocrypha, and the American Bible Society originally printed the King James with those books until Puritans complained about that.
And yes, the Church accepted only those books which taught what the Church taught, so to claim that those books actually contradict what the Church teaches is silly.
To Don Schenk who quotes the Book of James: “faith without works is dead,” James 2:26. In Acts of the Apostles, Peter says salvation is based on belief (on the Lord Jesus Christ). James was never a pope, but you follow Peter as the first pope. Why are you so accepting of James instead of Peter? Which statement is correct? Since you accept James over Peter, please explain how many works must I do in order to be saved? Also, what kind of works are required?
New Observer,
Belief IS a work. It is an act of the will. It is something you must DO.
Jesus said to be saved we must follow the Commandments. Those are also works.
See here for more information:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
New Observer, please supply a reference for your Peter reference. Paul also mentions salvation is based on belief, but the two are not mutually exclusive. You could need faith and works. The long and the short of the new position (i.e. common Protestant misreading) is that Luther wasn’t exactly the best Latin scholar, and misconstrues a passage to read “Faith alone is necessary for salvation” instead of “Only by faith can we be saved”.
To Don Schenk who writes: “And yes, the Church accepted only those books which taught what the Church taught.” This agenda is commonly referred to as a stacked deck.
Even Christ, when asked, what must we do to be saved, responded Believe, but he didn’t tell us to say we believe. Belief means more than words.
To Peter, My position is not that a believer will perform no works, only that works will follow belief. Even non-believers perform charitable works. However, how many works are necessary to be saved?
The Catholic Church does not teach and never has taught that we “earn” our salvation by our works. Yet this misconception persists. You can really see how the devil wants to divide us and puts such misconceptions in our midst. See this joint Catholic-Lutheran declaration, replete with Biblical reference: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
New Observer,
First, our definition of Faith is different than yours. Ours is not simply an intellectual assent to the fact that Jesus existed. It’s not even an intellectual assent to our trust that He died and rose for our sins. It encompasses as whole lot more.
Baptism, reception of the Eucharist, Following the 10 commandments…these are ALL works, and they are all required. Not because Peter said so. Not because James said so. But because JESUS said so.
People have explained to you that works (especially when spoken of by Paul) means WORKS OF THE LAW, which is very different than the works of which James and Jesus speak. No. You cannot earn or work you way into heaven. Heaven is not something you get paid for…you don’t work hard enough and then “deserve” it. BUT, part of believing, in a Catholic eyes and in Jesus eyes, is doing the works that were commanded us. IE getting baptized, spreading the Gospel, loving our neighbor, receiving the Eucharist…
Why do you guys read Scripture apart from the rest of Scripture? Why do you isolate verses and ignore everything else that is written? I suspect it is as Alfred D. Smith said…you search Scripture to find passages to back up your beliefs. This is totally backwards, but I’ve given up thinking you’ll ever see that. You are supposed to read Scripture and believe what it says…You DO NOT use Scripture to bolster your preconceived beliefs. Sheesh!
We don’t add up our works (and neither does God) as if we are punching a time clock. Believing/FAITH includes WORKS. When you say Faith you mean you agree with the IDEA that Jesus died and rose for our sins. When we say Faith we mean a WHOLE LOT more. We are saved through GRACE alone, not FAITH alone. Unless by Faith, you mean all that that entails. Baptism, Eucharist, following the Commandments, etc. That is OUR FAITH. As James points out, if one believes as you do, then Satan is a Christian in good standing. He “believes” in Jesus.
“And yes, the Church accepted only those books which taught what the Church taught.”
No new observer, that is YOUR modus operandi. We believe what we believe because of what the books say. We didn’t pick the books to back up what we believe. That’s your game.
Baptism, going to mass, reception of the Eucharist are works? They seem more an exercise of Catholic ritual. You call them “works” but how are these works demonstrated to those outside of church and in particular to someone unchurched? how are you saved by these works?
“Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.” John 6:53
JoAnna quotes: “
“Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.” John 6:53. And this means only Catholic communion? So this is all what a Catholic must do? You can receive communion and still live a life of sin. It happens all the time. To be Catholic and not Christian entitles you to eternal life? Salvation is only found in the Catholic church? I don’t understand this post. Posting a passage ........... and not saying anything else is what other writers accuse Protestants of doing.
And this means only Catholic communion? So this is all what a Catholic must do?
All Catholics must do for salvation is written here, with complete Scriptural support:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
For a much longer treatise on the subject, I recommend the most excellent “The Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin.
Joanna,
That’s a pretty big leap don’t you think? Who said ANY of that. The assertion was that we do not need works to enter heaven. We need only Faith. My rebuttal is that Jesus, not Paul, or James or Peter, but Jesus makes it clear that Faith ENTAILS works and that works are most definitely needed to enter heaven. We are saved as I said, by GRACE alone. Faith means more than just an intellectual assent. I could say the same things about Protestants…so what? All you have to do is believe? You can be a mass murderer and a rapist but if you believe it’s all cool?
Reception of the Holy Eucharist, validly consecrated Bread and Wine, is but ONE OF MANY commands that Jesus gave us.
That’s a pretty big leap don’t you think?
Wha…? I think you’re responding to the wrong person. I’m a faithful Catholic.
New Observer,
“And yes, the Church accepted only those books which taught what the Church taught.” This agenda is commonly referred to as a stacked deck.
LOL, and yet you follow and constantly quote these books…*shakes head in wonder*....If you really believed that, you’d run screaming from those books…they are after all, stacked to favor our side, right? How do you know what’s in them is true? I mean if every word was hand picked to back up our beliefs, then why would you believe any of it?
JoAnna,
Sorry about the above comment, it was directed to New Observer not you…oops.
NEW OBSERVER,
That’s a pretty big leap don’t you think? Who said ANY of that. The assertion was that we do not need works to enter heaven. We need only Faith. My rebuttal is that Jesus, not Paul, or James or Peter, but Jesus makes it clear that Faith ENTAILS works and that works are most definitely needed to enter heaven. We are saved as I said, by GRACE alone. Faith means more than just an intellectual assent. I could say the same things about Protestants…so what? All you have to do is believe? You can be a mass murderer and a rapist but if you believe it’s all cool?
Reception of the Holy Eucharist, validly consecrated Bread and Wine, is but ONE OF MANY commands that Jesus gave us.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/major-supernatural-event-this-saturday/#ixzz1NOcRytlz
Forget it Alfred. You’re blind to history.
I bet you can make an argument that Obama is not the president of the USA right now and could make a counter argument using a peanut butter nutrition label. Your assumptions of the Doctrines taught in the Catholic Church is all false.
You can usually make a good argument pointing out something that is true, and then disagreeing with it. But all your points are made up. Read the CCC and then come back with your questions because all of them right now is just rubbish.
I wish I could wipe Protestantism off the face of the Earth…
Every, any tiny gathering can claim to be the church which Jesus established.
And the devil can claim to be an angel of light.
We didn’t pick the books to back up what we believe.
Yet you credulously accept the books you claim we picked out to back up what we believe. . . you must believe that the Holy Spirit guided and protected us in making this choice, and so that the Holy Spirit guides and protects us.
If you could wipe Protestantism of the face of the earth without ridding the world of the Authorize version God will still raise seed again unto himself because you can never win this war. You have murdered all our apostles with the exception of John and he wrote revelation while exiled on the isle of Patmos to rub salt into your rotten soul. why would you want to kill your children any way it is Christ that you hate and his word. Perhaps you could go to the pope and ask him to let you do another inquisition like you did in the pass. You sound like a little serpent.
Alfred,
Who are these Apostles that you are speaking of?
What happened to Christianity while the New Testament was being written?
Through what body was the Christian Canon chosen?
What happened in the early days of Christianity?
You need to take a history class.
“I came from an apostate religion. Salvaged what I could. Made it my own. I call it…Alfred’s First Church of Christ”
Dear Commentator of the weak
The only Apostle of Christ that died from old age, this being documented in the history books, is John: all the others were murdered by the established religion of the day. When Steven was murdered he used the scripture, beginning from Genesis to pierce the rotten souls of his opponents. Our book has transcended time, and the control of the evil one. He can control the counterfeits from the Vatican but not the authorized version. God himself shall preserve his word through every generation psalm 12 KJV. In the early days of Christianity we were persecuted from city to city, village to village, town to town, nation to nation and we spread the gospel of Christ as were being killed by the established church. We could not be gotten rid of although we were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. In our apparent defeat we became more than conquerors through him that loved us, our Lord and risen Saviour Jesus Christ. Psalm 12:5-8 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Alfred,
When Steven was murdered he used the scripture, beginning from Genesis to pierce the rotten souls of his opponents
Man, I knew Steven was filled with the Holy Spirit, but really??? He read to them out of the King James Bible 1500 years before it was written???? Wow. To think, King James wasn’t even born yet, but Stephen somehow managed to get ahold of his version of Scripture. And Satan read it in the Garden of Eden? Only he misinterpreted it? Amazing! If stuff like this goes on in your church all the time, I really must join. I mean these are bonafide MIRACLES! There is only one thing I’m unclear on…where did King James get HIS bible? I mean, it looks uncannily like ours. If I were an English teacher, I might even think he plagiarized our Bible. It’s just crazy how similar it is to the Canon of the Catholic Church…I guess it’s a mystery…
If nothing else Alfred, you have made me laugh these last few weeks. Are you a kid? Because I could almost forgive you your irrational claims if you were, say, 14. I might even commend you on your zeal and passion.
Have you figured out which Church I should belong to yet? Sunday is coming and I want to be sure to attend the correct service.
You seem hung out on joining a church. You might join them all if you think that church membership could solve your problem and still be left out to sea. Perhaps you could look to Jesus. He was righteous everyday not just religious on Sunday or the sabbath. Unless your righteousness exceed that of the scribes, the Pharisees, the protestants and the Catholics thou shall not by any means enter the into the kingdom. Perhaps it is the other way around though, except for a few subtle changes your bible does read a bit like the real thing. When God wrote genesis, that masterpiece about the creation, do you think he need any so called scholars? yet the story was told perfectly. Making claim to the bible that God wrote before the foundation of the world is the most absurd thing I have herd for the day. How ever Satan felt he could lay claim to glory and majesty of God so why should you surprise me with your claims.
You seem hung out on joining a church.
Well, Alred, it’s just that Jesus, in the KJV tells us that we should keep His day Holy, and that He established a Church here on earth…I’m just wondering what He meant.
<blockquote>and upon this rock I will build my church Matthew 16:18
There is a dictionary entry for: church
Gal 1:22 But I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is great – but I am actually speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
Act 15:41 He passed through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
Act 20:17 From Miletus he sent a message to Ephesus, telling the elders of the church to come to him.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector.
1Co 16:19 The churches in the province of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.
1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
Act 5:11 Great fear gripped the whole church and all who heard about these things.
Act 11:22 A report about them came to the attention of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
Act 12:5 So Peter was kept in prison, but those in the church were earnestly praying to God for him.
Rom 16:1 Now I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,
Rom 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
1Co 16:1 With regard to the collection for the saints, please follow the directions that I gave to the churches of Galatia:
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so that I could serve you!
2Co 11:28 Apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxious concern for all the churches.
Eph 3:21 to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Eph 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body.
Eph 5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her
2Th 1:1 From Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 3:5 But if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for the church of God?
Phm 1:2 to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church that meets in your house.
3Jo 1:9 I wrote something to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not acknowledge us.
Rev 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the one who is the first and the last, the one who was dead, but came to life:
I guess that since Scripture is replete with reference to these “Churches”, and we are called to unity, I am wondering which “Church” I should follow. Are you saying that it is enough to read the bible? Because I don’t see unity in that. Or are yous saying that there is no one True Church, which is in contradiction to what Jesus said? I don’t see a way around it. Jesus said He was building His Church on a rock, and then Paul says we must remain unified. For 1500 years we did just that. Now you are telling me that we no longer need to remain unified? We are no longer a “Church”...How does that work?
And Alfred, you never answered me about the KJV. How did Stephen quote from it when it wasn’t written until 1500 years later? Where did the KJV come from? How is it that it is almost word for word the same as the one that the early Christians used? Why is the KJV better? I don’t get it. In the year 1500 or so, God wrote the real Scripture? And up until then we had no Scripture? I am just so dang confused…help?
If you could wipe Protestantism of the face of the earth without ridding the world of the Authorize version God will still raise seed again unto himself.
Well, of course. He was raising up seed unto himself for centuries before the Authorized Version, since He promised that he would not go away and leave us orphans.
because you can never win this war.
Fortunately, we don’t have to. Jesus has overcome the universe!
Truth is the bonding element that holds the church. Have you been walking in truth? No. God’s word alone is truth and you oppose it in favor of your devilish traditions and the corrupt pontiff’s edits. Your claim to be the ones that wrote the scriptures is no more truth than if you had claimed to have creating the heavens and the earth. I expect sooner or later you might want to make that claim too. You should read the account of when the big shots came after Steven he spat scripture at them like a sharp sword till they were cut tom the heart. Steven did not speak Latin in his discourse but Greek. So the scriptures were written in Greek from which those scholars commissioned by the king in 1604 translated it into english. Your corrupt Latin version was never used until 1881 and the translation is still corrupt because it came from Egyptian scholars.
The church is still built on the solid Rock the Lord Jesus Christ but in order to be a member you must be born again because the first time you were born you were born wrong, filthy and sinful.
In that state you could join every church on the planet and still end up burning in hell for all eternity. If you were born again you would not need to worry about church because Christ know those that are his and he would know you.
Alfred, Alfred, Alfred,
You’ve got tenacity anyway. I’ll give you that. First, his name is spelled with a “ph” not a “v”. Second the Scriptures he was spouting offer were THE OLD TESTAMENT, NOT, NOT, NOT the King James version…silly boy. Third, after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD the Jews went through ALL of the Scripture that they had (AND THEY ONLY HAD THE OLD TESTAMENT). If they could NOT find a Hebrew copy (Focuuuuuus….if they could not find a HEBREW copy) of the Scriptures, then they THREW THOSE BOOKS OUT. If they ONLY had GREEK copies of a book, they THREW THEM OUT. Do you get it?
You say that only the Greek counts, and YET, the only reason your bible is different from ours is because YOU and the Jews REJECTED the GREEK!
So the scriptures were written in Greek from which those scholars commissioned by the king in 1604 translated it into english.
That Satanic Catholic Bible you are always on about??? The only difference between it and yours? WE KEPT THE GREEK BOOKS. YOU DIDN’T.
Do you even know that? Do you even know what makes our Bible different than yours? So IF Stephen was quoting Scripture, it was from the OLD TESTAMENT. THERE WAS NO NEW TESTAMENT. And even if there were, which there WAS NOT, he WOULD NOT, COULD NOT have been quoting the KJV.
Not in a car, not in a tree, not in a park…NO KJV!
Try, Alfred, Please, just try, to explain to me WHERE the KJV came from. Can you do that for me? For instance, who was King James and why is the Bible named after him, instead of God? Will you do that for me? Look it up and find out where the KJV came from and when?
Did we not reject the minority Latin text in favor of the majority Greek text. You ask who was King James? He was the man that signed into law in 1611 the edit put the bible into the hands of the ordinary man. Poor people were given the privilege to walk pass the church made priest and go straight into the throne room of God at will. We still can because each one of us is a priest before God which is a blood brought privilege. Stephen sure knew how to use the scriptures to do maximum damage. Don’t you admire him. Act 7:48-54 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
The same applies today as the hate for the word of God and his saints is prevalent. Where did the KLV that is so hated by the serpent come from? In eternity God when he was inventing languages, and by the way he made every language that has ever been spoken, and in English was the 7 world language he ordained he wrote his word and one jot or one title shall pass away from it. Is he not all wise?
and in English was the 7 world language he ordained he wrote his word and one jot or one title shall pass away from it.
And this is in Scripture, where????
Okay. Let’s start at the very, very beginning. Where in Scripture does it tell you that the ONLY source of Truth is Scripture? I think that’s a fair question, since you claim it to be true and everything else that you believe is based on this. So, three questions.
1. Where in Scripture does it say that ONLY, ONLY, ONLY Scripture is the source of Truth?
2. Who took the various books that were scattered and compiled them into what we now call the Bible?
3. What were people using as Scripture BEFORE 1604?
I wonder if this works…
Okay okay okay! You got me. I’m a heretic. Imma go read the Catechism now and go take a history class…and maybe check out the Early Church Fathers. I heard those guys were the bomb diggity.
Yes.
“You have to admire the courage of people like this gentleman who spent his life savings promoting these speculations, but not their wisdom.”
Sorry, I don’t admire liars & fantasists who take advantage of people’s gullibility. They should be very soundly flogged - not admired. Such people are pond-life. The US seems to be teeming with them :( No wonder atheism is thriving.
Alfred,
I already used that sarcastic comeback. It won’t play twice. Now answer the questions is you can. Please.
From what you appear to be asking you seem to be seeking alternative sources of truth apart from the bible. If that is what you desire I assure you that the serpent has them waiting around every corner. You only need to chose your poison. I am narrow minded and I walk a very straight and simple road turning neither to the left nor to the right. I understand that this is frowned upon by the modern scholar but I am not called to be doubled minded. Truth be told I suspect that you too have set your mind to be single minded just that we have chosen to seek anything that oppose God’s word. I accept the authorized version by faith and you accept church tradition by faith. I believe that we should let God be true and every man a liar and that the bible is the eternal word of God. The scriptures have always been around powered by the power of the Holy spirit even from Eden. That is why we can read that the word of God came unto Noah, Abraham,David, Isaiah etc. God has always preserved his word and always will and Satan has always opposed this for Satan was a liar from the beginning. With King James came printing and printing brought freedom, freedom from the prison of the Vatican’s deceit. Now we are priest unto God with blood bought freedom.
Alfred,
No Alfred. I am asking you to show me where the bible says that it IS the only source of Truth. You say it is the only source of Eternal Truth. That assertion would BE an Eternal Truth. Where in the SOURCE OF ETERNAL TRUTHS does it state that IT IS the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY source of Eternal Truths? This isn’t a hard question. You claim Sola Scriptura, I am asking you to PROVE it using Scripture. If you cannot, the you have just refuted your own assertion. You’ve done the work for me. If you CAN prove THROUGH Scripture, that Scripture is the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY source of Eternal Truth, then do so!
Ha ha…You can say that again….
WHO authorized it????? AND where does it say in Scripture that King James version would BE the authorized version. You said Scripture is the ONLY source of ETERNAL TRUTH. So where in Scripture does it say that the King James Version of Scripture will be the ‘AUTHORIZED” version?
You still have not answered a single one of my questions.
Let’s try again. Take them one at a time…THINK…and answer what I’m asking. The questions are relatively straight forward. They shouldn’t be giving you this much trouble. If you want me to understand your point of view, then you’ll have to explain it. Not go on an on about satan and deception. I have three legitimate questions given the accusations you have put forth. Please. Just answer them….
1. Where in Scripture does it say that ONLY, ONLY, ONLY Scripture is the source of Truth?
2. Who took the various books that were scattered and compiled them into what we now call the Bible?
3. What were people using as Scripture BEFORE 1604?
Alfred,
I hate to tax your brain, but here is another question…
You say “Now we are priest unto God with blood bought freedom.”
Can you please tell me what the jobs of a priest ARE? You use the term, and I’m not quite sure what it means. What is a “PRIEST” and what are his duties. Surely, if you believe that YOU are a priest, then you know what that entails, right?
1)psalm chapter 119 try reading it sometime, It claim that the scripture is the only eternal truth.
2) Revelation chapter 5: The books were never scattered but sealed with seven seals that only the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world could loose. Do some home work, prove otherwise. They are still sealed even now that even the modern scholars think that God’s plan of salvation and the preaching of the cross is foolishness. 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
3) Adam talked with God in the cool of the evening in the garden, Even Cain talked with God and God talked with him 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. after the fall of man when he had killed his brother Abel, so did Noah when God told him to build the ark. Abram dialogued with God on a number of occasions , and the prophets. God has never forgotten how to talk with his people in ways that he can be clearly understood with both the verbal and written word.
4) We priest, blood washed saints of God, Hebrews 4: 16 go to God boldly and we call him father and we talk with him about any and everything. That is our duty and our privilege authorized by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the only potentate. That has always been the duty of a priest.
Oh for Heavens sake…first nowhere in that Psalm does it say that Scripture is the ONLY source of Eternal Truth. Second, if your going to give me something to read then narrow it down. What “line” are you talking about.
So, question number one…strike.
Question 2…if they are STILL sealed, then how can the King James Version BE them? Make some sense man! Paul wrote letters to the Romans, the Galatians, the Ephesians…those letters were COLLECTED and translated and declared Sacred…by WHOM? The four Gospels were written and scattered, then collected and put into the Canon…BY WHOM? Don’t give me this “There still bound in heaven” in one breath, and then in the next tell me that they came into being in 1604. SOMEONE collected all of the books that are in YOUR KJV and declared them Sacred and bound them into what we call the Bible. WHO DID THAT????
Question 2? Strike
Let’s review, shall we? WRITTEN…Scripture. VERBAL…SACRED TRADITION…lol. You are so funny. You tell me Scripture alone, then say that things that are handed down verbally also count. What the heck do you think Sacred Tradition IS???
Question 2/part 2…Strike.
Question Three…The duty of a priest has not always, has NEVER been to go and talk to God about his personal problems…the duty of the priest, the very duty that MAKES him a priest…is that he performs SACRIFICES…
3 questions…not one of them answered. But at least we are making headway…you attempted to stick to the topic at hand. Good for you. I mean that. Now let’s try again, this time, look at the actual question and try to answer it.
1. Where in Scripture does it say that ONLY, ONLY, ONLY Scripture is the source of Truth? (Not where does it say that Scripture IS A source of Eternal Truth, but where does it say that it is the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY source of Eternal Truth? See, that word ONLY makes ALL the difference)
2. Who took the various books that were scattered and compiled them into what we now call the Bible? (We have a bible, KJV or otherwise, right? SOMEONE collected those writings BEFORE 1604 and put them all together, calling them Sacred Scripture. King James used the same collection of books, albeit he went to the Greek to translate from, to compile HIS bible. Is it coincidence that he used the EXACT same set of Books? Not one book was added or subtracted from the books used BEFORE 1604. So apparently, King James thought that whoever had COLLECTED those books, declaring them SACRED before him, had done a pretty good job, or else he wouldn’t have accepted them. The question is WHO TOOK THE VARIOUS BOOKS THAT WERE SCATTERED AND COMPILED THEM INTO WHAT WE NOW CALL THE BIBLE? Obviously, the sealed book of revelation doesn’t count as it is SEALED!)
3. What were people using as Scripture BEFORE 1604? (If Sola Scriptura is correct, then how could there have been Christians, ANY Christians prior to 1604 when the only true version of Scripture came into being? What the heck were people doing for the 1600 BEFORE the KJV. Was King James the first and only TRUE CHRISTIAN? What did Paul do? What did Barnabas do? How could they be Christians when there was no Scripture to USE in Sola Scriptura????)
Please. Try again. We might actually be getting somewhere. If what you say is true, then you should be able to show me. How can I accept what you are claiming if you won’t give me some evidence that it is true?
When God’s truth is rejected the penalty is always his severe wrath. we see this principle throughout the history of Israel. It is not my desire or responsibility to prove my faith just to show it. God looks at our hearts. If you were not a religious person and an ordinary man in the street I would perhaps make further effort to convince you but I am persuaded that you are sold already know that it would be time well wasted. As you would know Christ spent very little time on the religious people that he encountered but took his teaching to the ordinary people that needed his salvation. That also is my intention. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
I didn’t ask you to “prove” it. I asked you to show me the Scriptural Evidence. Yes, I am religious, but whether you want to acknowledge it or not, we are both of the SAME religion. CHRISTIAN. AS a Christian, I would think that you would want the Truth to be known. If you believe you know something that I do not, and refuse to share it….well, that’s very unChristlike. You came onto a Catholic site, KNOWING (unless you are completely bereft of intelligence) that you would be addressing a MULTITUDE of what you refer to as RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. Now, either you are a trouble maker, you have a sincere desire to enlighten us, or you can’t back up what you say so you’re copping out.
You’ve already admitted you have no desire to “prove” what you claim, so that’s out. So far, you have not addressed the questions I have asked so it would appear you did not come here to enlighten us, which sadly, leaves us with “you are a troublemaker”...also very unChristlike. I have not asked you anything that you yourself have not brought up. It is not unreasonable to ask you to clarify and back up your assertions.
So why would a Christian, claiming to LOVE God and follow Jesus, continue to peruse and comment on Catholic blogs knowing that he has no intention of entering into a real dialogue and with the intention of causing trouble. This whole thing disturbs me. You need to really look at your motives. Here is some advice…When you see the word CATHOLIC in the title of a website, chances are you will NOT be dealing with the regular joe on the street, and chances are that you WILL be dealing with religious people.
Now, if you are able and/or willing, would you please, to the best of your abiity, try to answer my questions?
I know I have been hard on you, but that is because I see you as a troublemaker. Prove me wrong. I apologize for my rudeness and that is a sincere apology. Please forgive me. I’m starting to sense that you speak from emotion instead of your brain, and that is a very dangerous thing to do. Emotions cannot be trusted. But calm, well thought out reasoning will never let you down. So forgive me, and please, try to answer the questions.
I believe that there can be only one truth and that truth is the eternal word of God as preserved in the authorized version of the bible. Any theory, philosophy, tradition or translation of the bible that conflicts with what this book teaches is by me discarded. According to my belief salvation is by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast. I believe that joining a church, any church is of no eternal worth if one is not first joined to the church the body, the bride of Christ. I believe that God only wrote one book and he will go by this book whether we like it or not. I believe that Jesus Christ is the virgin born son of God, the seed of the woman that we read about in the book of Genesis that that God promised would bruise the head of the serpent. I believe that the whole bible from genesis to revelation is about him and his redemptive work. These things that I believe can all be proven by faith but were we to engulf ourselves in an intellectual debate it becomes pointless. I am sure there are many far more qualified than myself would be able to take that path. In other words I cannot prove to you that there’s no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. I cannot prove to you that that God has preserved every jot and every tittle of his word i just believe it. That Jesus saved me from going to hell when I was still a sinner an gave me everlasting life. why I cannot even prove that there is a real heaven and a real hell but because my bible say so I just believe. Because his holy spirit lives within me and my body is his temple he convinces me everyday. Perhaps that makes me a trouble maker, I have actually been accused of worst. Emotional is not one of the thing that i am often accused of but I would not mind wearing that garment if love for Christ and his word and hat for sin and the Devil is considered so.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD is truth. That verse tells me that God’s word alone is truth add any thing to it and it becomes corrupt. I believe that and live by and am prepared to die for it. Are you prepared to die for your traditions?
Alfred, if the Bible is the truth, what about 1 Timothy 3:15?
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”
It says the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the Bible.
How do you resolve this contradiction?
Also, you’ve never answered—where does it say in the Bible that the KJV is the only authorized version of the Bible? I can’t seem to find that verse.
Mr. Smith raises a valid question. The Catholic Church has declared several truths which cannot be supported by Scripture. This does not mean what has been declared as truth found outside the Word is untrue, it only raises the question of whether a Catholic is willing to stand and die by a church declared truth. For example, the church teaches as true Mary’s appearance at Fatima or that Padre Pio levitated when saying mass. Since we have not seen such things does not make these declarations untrue. On the other hand, whether or not one believes such events to be true (or false) has no bearing in our lives as a condition of salvation. We are not saved by church “tradition” but only by the shed blood of Christ at Calvary.
I would not agree that myself and a catholic is of the same faith or as you refer to it religion. I am a Christian because Christ saved me, when I was lost in sin, from the wages of sin. You love the institution of the church and the blessed mother and who know what else? That makes you a Roman Catholic. Does that not make us totally different? I believe it does.
As a Christian I do not try to hide the truth from anyone that is interested in him. Are you interested in knowing Jesus Christ the way the truth and the life?
I believe that there can be only one truth and that truth is the eternal word of God as preserved in the authorized version of the bible; there can be of course any amount of imitations that look like a lamb and speak like a serpent.
Any theory, philosophy, tradition or translation of the bible that conflicts with what this book teaches is by me discarded, thrown in the garbage.
According to my belief salvation is by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast. I believe that joining a church, any church is of no eternal worth if one is not first joined to the church the body, the bride of Christ. I believe that God only wrote one book and he will go by this book whether we like it or not. I believe that Jesus Christ is the virgin born son of God; the seed of the woman that we read about in the book of Genesis that God promised would bruise the head of the serpent. I believe that the whole bible from genesis to revelation is about him and his redemptive work. These things that I believe can all be proven by faith but were we to engulf ourselves in an intellectual debate it becomes pointless exercise in claims and counter claims. I am sure there are many far more qualified than myself who would be able to pursue that path with you. In other words I cannot prove to you that there’s no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved yet I believe this with all my heart. I cannot prove to you that that God has preserved every jot and every tittle of his word I just believe it. That Jesus saved me from going to hell when I was still a sinner and gave me everlasting life. Why I cannot even prove that there is a real heaven and a real hell but because my bible says so I just believe. Because his Holy Spirit lives within me and my body is his temple he convinces me every day that what I believe is 100% true. Perhaps that makes me a trouble maker; I have actually been accused of worst things. Emotional is not one of the things that I am often accused of thought but I would not mind wearing that garment if love for Christ and his word and hate for sin and the Devil is considered emotional.
John 17 vs17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD is truth. That verse tells me that God’s word alone is truth; add anything to it and it becomes corrupt take away any thing and it becomes toxic. I believe that and live by and am prepared to die for it. Are you prepared to die for your traditions?
You accuse me of being Un-Christ like did not Christ also refuse to discuss with those confrontational religious people topics that they refused to believe, he answered them not a word so much so that they marvelled. I am doing the same with you.
New Observer,
The Church has declared no truth that is contrary to Scripture.
Moreover, the Church does not require belief in Fatima or Padre Pio’s alleged levitation. Unless you can find official Church documents that state the prior two private devotions are required belief for salvation, your entire paragraph is a non sequitur (and let’s not get into the various Fundamentalist beliefs that are contrary to Scripture, such as the belief that the KJV Bible is the only “authorized” version out there).
Alfred, if the Bible is the truth, what about 1 Timothy 3:15?
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”
It says the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the Bible.
How do you resolve this contradiction?
Also, you’ve never answered—where does it say in the Bible that the KJV is the only authorized version of the Bible? I can’t seem to find that verse.
“Posted by New Observer on Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:33 PM (EDT):
Mr. Smith raises a valid question. The Catholic Church has declared several truths which cannot be supported by Scripture. This does not mean what has been declared as truth found outside the Word is untrue, it only raises the question of whether a Catholic is willing to stand and die by a church declared truth. For example, the church teaches as true Mary’s appearance at Fatima or that Padre Pio levitated when saying mass.”
Those are not doctrines - & they do not oblige in conscience. A Catholic is not a “bad Catholic” for doubting, denying or questioning whether an allegedly apparition has really occured - all that is needed is that the doubt should be free of moral fault when expressed. No Marian apparition enjoys or can enjoy the authority proper to doctrines, because no Marian apparition is part of the Deposit of Faith (which dogmas are). No apparition or post-Biblical miracle is revealed by God, so it cannot be dogmatised, or even taught as unquestionable. People can believe in the assumption of St.Joseph, if they wish, & many have - but they cannot with any show of right question the faith of those who do not. The same holds here. There is no *doctrinal* objection to questioning the reality of the alleged events at Guadalupe in 1531 - there might be such an objection to questioning whether or not the alleged seer actually existed, since he has been canonised; & it’s not clear what the Church makes of the cultus of Saints whose existence is questionable.
Hello JoAnne you say that the Bible states that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the Bible. And then you hammers this point home with how do you resolve this contradiction?
I will not address any of your perceived contradictions because were I to do that it would be like what is referred to in the scriptures as answering a fool according to his folly. When I encounter anything that faintly appears to be a contradiction I just take it into God throne room and let him take care of it, it always works for me. If he knew you, you could try the same; he is really wise beyond words. I, however, like to deal with what I am sure of. The Church is the bride of Christ just like Eve was the bride of Adam. Adam was not deceived by the serpent but Eve was. Christ cannot be deceived by the deceiver but his bride the church can. That is why he has preserved his is word psalm 12 KJV the others do not say the same thing. Read john 17 verses 17 that might help you to understand about truth.
About the KGV being the only authorized version of the bible it is actually found in history. It was signed into law in 1611 by King James the first of England. In 1881 the Church of England tried to get the revised version authorized but no king or Queen would authorize it even till now but all of the new translations of the bible are taken from that translation which was translated from the minority text.
The KJV is translated from the majority Greek text. I do trust that I was able to help in some way.
So, Alfred, if you see a contradiction within Scripture you ignore it? That’s not what Scripture says to do.
Where in the Bible does it say that the KJV is the only authorized version? By your standards, I can’t trust historical proof, as you maintain that truth is ONLY found in Scripture, not in history.
Manticore, thank you. I have often wondered why Catholicism places so much importance on these other areas. That you say belief is not required does help. It is troubling, though, that they only serve to divide Catholics and Christians. Catholics should do their best to ensure Christians are aware these are not required beliefs taught by the Vatican. Not everyone is aware of this.
And yet he answers none of them.
New Observer, (or should I call you Twelve?)
Ahhhhhh…first that is not true, but more importantly the one TRUTH that she does not claim is the Scripture is the ONLY source of Truth. Every Truth we claim, CAN be supported by Scripture, and yet the GREATEST Truth that Alfred claims…THAT SCRIPTURE IS THE ONLY, ONLY, ONLY source of Eternal Truth…CANNOT be found in that same Scripture.
Such a simple thing I have asked him to do. Perhaps you would like to take up the cause?
Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is the ONLY,ONLY,ONLY source of Truth?
No it does not.
And you know this, how? Where does it say in Scripture or anywhere else, that miracles from God ended after the bible? And would that be the Bible that was compiled in the year 400? Or the one compiled in 1604? Or as Alfred claims, the Eternal Word, meaning there is no post biblical era since the bible has existed always?
Alfred,
We call that denial.
When there are two Scripture passages that SEEM to contradict each other, there can only be one of two explanations. Scripture is false, or you are interpreting it wrong. Since you and I agree, on this at least, that Scripture is not false, then that leaves us with a faulty intepretation.
I admire you naivete. It’s actually kind of sweet. But I don’t understand why you come to Catholic Blogs to peddle it. As I’m sure you’ve noticed, we are all well equipped to defend our Faith, through Scripture and Reason. You are not equipped to defend yours through Scripture OR Reason. What do you hope to accomplish here?
When we ask you legitimate questions, you respond that we are fools and could not possible understand your great wisdom. Wouldn’t it be better to share your profound wisdom and hope for the best? Aren’t we supposed to plant seeds and let God nurture them?
I haven’t asked you deep theological questions. I haven’t asked you to expound and elaborate on intricate, nuanced doctrines. I have asked you three very simple, very basic questions, all based on things that YOU have claimed.
When you call us fools, imply we are too stupid to “get it”, or say that you don’t question what you believe but accept it blindly, you do yourself AND God a disservice. Either you are working for Him or you are not. If you are, then you should be able to defend your position. God doesn’t need silent soldiers in His army. He needs men and women who can defend His Church and defend their Faith boldly and honestly.
So I am asking you again…please…answer these three questions:
1. Where in Scripture does it say that ONLY, ONLY, ONLY Scripture is the source of Truth?
2. Who took the various books that were scattered and compiled them into what we now call the Bible?
3. What were people using as Scripture BEFORE 1604?
Manitore,
No apparition or post-Biblical miracle is revealed by God
And you know this, how? Where does it say in Scripture or anywhere else, that miracles from God ended after the bible? And would that be the Bible that was compiled in the year 400? Or the one compiled in 1604? Or as Alfred claims, the Eternal Word, meaning there is no post biblical era since the bible has existed always?
LOL…sorry about that…I just did what I accuse Alfred of doing…pulled that line out of context.
It is true that no new TRUTH has been revealed by God, but I would have worded that differently. There have been miracles, allowed by God, since the conclusion of Scripture. There have NOT been any new TRUTHS revealed through these miracles or apparitions. That’s an important distinction. One is not required to believe in these miracles, but that does not mean they did not take place. One MAY believe in approved miracles. One may NOT believe in any miracle that claims to reveal a new TRUTH, however.
1. John 17 verse 17 …thy word is truth. 2. God himself through his Holy Spirit preserved his word. 3. The gospel has never been lost for us saints were scattered throughout the world it was preached, it was hand copied and in 1611 it was printed. And you could do nothing about it…but kill us. Why do you rage, are you claiming that you did something special because you were able to manipulate the history accounts?
You call it denial we call it PRAYING, it works marvellously. What do you do? O yes do you count beads? That to my mind is denial.
Joanna if you know of any other authorize version of the bible you could state its name, I know of a number of copy-writed perversions but they do not count. However, because this bible that I believe is authorized by King James is not why I believe and treasure its content, by the way but because of the intense hate that is focused in its direction and the lame, concentrated attacks from the enemies of God who seek to promote uncertainty and in-cooperation. I just love to see how it makes them rage, rant and squirm and imagine all types of vain things. Contradictions come into your tiny mind because of your ignorance of the complete picture. God have no contradictions in his word or kingdom.
Alfred,
HOORAY…you answered the question…BUT, no one is disputing that Scripture contains the Truth, and nothing BUT the Truth. The dispute is that it is the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY source of Truth. I agree that “His Word is Truth”...so does every single Catholic in the world. The question is, can there be other sources of Eternal Truth. You say no. ONLY,ONLY,ONLY Scripture. I’m asking you for a passage that backs that up. Can you give me one?
You mentioned that you have no desire to put forth these testimonies. Let’s look at what Scripture says:
See? You must always be willing and ready to defend Christ and your Hope.
I really am sorry that I have been less than patient with you. No matter what you have called my Church, The Mother of God, the Saints that have gone before you or those who believe in the Catholic Church, I should not have answered you with sarcasm. That was very unChristian of me. I admit it. I tend to get my own emotions in an uproar when the Church is attacked. But I realize you attack Her because you don’t know who or what She is. It is a lack of understanding on your part and not ill will. Even given your choice of words, I believe you really are sincere in what you are trying to do. That was a good try. But it didn’t really answer my question. You have shown, and done it well, that Scripture contains Truth and Only Truth. But I am asking you to show me that Scripture ALONE, contains Eternal Truth. Do you understand the difference in the questions? Where does it say that there are NO OTHER SOURCES of Eternal Truth? Kay?
Alfred,
O yes do you count beads? That to my mind is denial.
What do you think we are doing when we “count those beads”? What are we saying? What are we thinking about? You are making assumptions. If you KNOW what we are thinking about, if you understand the Rosary and what it is, and still believe it is satanic, that is one thing. But if you are condemning based on a lack of knowledge, then that is a serious accusation.
When we pray the Rosary, we are meditating, thinking about, the different parts of Jesus’ life. We break His whole life into 6 different sets. We first think about all the Joyful things that led up to His ministry. We think about the announcement of Gabriel to Mary, then we think about her visit to Elizabeth, then we think about His birth. Then we think about His presentation in the Temple and finally we think about when He preached in the Temple at 12 years of age. We call these “Mysteries”. A mystery is a Divine Secret. You can “enter” into a Mystery and go deeper and deeper…this is a form of prayer. We call this first set of Mysteries, the Joyful Mysteries, because they call to mind how happy we are that Jesus has come into the world.
Then we think about the sad things that happened in Jesus life. We think about His agony in the garden of Gethsemane. We think about how He was beaten at the pillar. We think about how He was crowned with thorns and mocked. We think about how He carried that heavy, heavy cross. We think about how He died a horrible death, so that we could live forever. We call these the Sorrowful mysteries.
On each of those beads we recite a passage from Scripture. First we say the Apostles Creed. You say that too, don’t you? Then we say The Lord’s Prayer. Jesus told us to pray that way, so you shouldn’t have a problem with us using the very words that Jesus gave us. Lastly, we pray from Luke…
You see, we pray those words because we are asking Our Lady to pray with us and for us. Surely, Jesus loves His mother, just as you love yours. Is there any reason that they should not speak to one another in Heaven? Is it wrong to ask each other to pray for us?
But we also say those words to be reminded of the miracle of the Incarnation…the Word becoming Flesh. What a wonderful thing to focus on…don’t you agree? Especially in our day and age where unborn life is considered so much garbage?
That is the Rosary. That is “counting beads” as you say. How can reciting Scripture and thinking about Jesus’ life be a bad thing?
Alfred,
You could say the same thing about the Koran. People hate it and revile it. Is that a reason to believe it? Where was King James given the Authority to authorize this version?
And quite honestly, there isn’t much difference between our Bible and yours. I could be perfectly content if the only version available was the KJV. The books are the same. Only some translations are different. The question is, who gave King James or anyone, for that matter, the right to interpret Scripture? Where in Scripture does it “Name” someone as authorized to do so? Do you see? You accept King James authority over Jesus’. That’s dangerous. Jesus does give someone authority in Scripture. But it isn’t King James. I can show you the passages where that authority is handed over. Can you show me in Scripture where King James got his authority? Before I change my version of the Bible, I need to know on whose Authority King James rests, and I need to see in Scripture, where it was given to him. Can you do that for me?
I have given you what you asked for a verse that says that God’s word is truth. This verse does not state that thy word and church tradition is truth. It does not state that thy word and the church organisation’s word is truth. It simply says thy word is truth. The book has skilfully defended itself without any help from me. Accept or reject it but that is what it says.
Your claim that you are not disputing the scriptures is expected and understood because you dare not dispute it openly. Your dilemma, nonetheless is while the scripture stands like a enormous self-supporting entity on its own; your flimsy traditions lack credibility and substance if left to stand by themselves that is why you are seeking marriage.
Thank you for explaining the rosary to me because I must admit that I was totally ignorant of the details. It does sound like a really beautiful concept and process. Does it get the results required?
We Saints, on the other hand depend on the foolishness of preaching the cross to save them that believe and that works for us. Once they are saved the Holy Spirit make their body his temple…we refer to that as being sealed with the holy spirit which is a mark of God’s ownership of a saint…only God can see this mark. This we call being born again incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
You could say the same thing about the Koran. People hate it and revile it. A very interesting observation, I did not know that. Do you know of anyone that hate and revile the Koran or even read it? I don’t. I do know of some that resent the Muslims but their book has never been sought after…least not in my neck of the woods and definitely they are very few counterfeits of the Koran that I have heard about. We have over 120 counterfeits and counting of the bible on the market to date. Has anyone counterfeited any of your traditions, your rosary?
And quite honestly, there isn’t much difference between our Bible and yours. What!!! There’s enough difference to make them different. Enough difference is found to make one potent and the other inconsequential. There is enough difference to make one stand solo and the other lay on a book shelf gathering dust. The real one is hated the other is disregarded how much more difference do we need.
No, Alfred, he asked for a Bible verse that stated Scripture was the ONLY truth. Catholics agree that Scripture contains truth. We disagree that it is the ONLY source of Scripture.
Can you provide a Bible verse that says that Scripture is the ONLY source of Truth for Christians? Or that the KJV is the ONLY authorized version?
the above should say, “We disagree that it is the ONLY source of truth.”
Hi Joanna, I hope you are having a really nice day.
That verse in John 17 verse 17 is so simple, complete and authorative that to seriously attempt to mounted an offensive against it suggest some sinister malicious motive ...Thy word is truth… this is a perfect and complete statement that cannot be gainsayed against. It would be equivalent to this equally profound statement …God is love. Who would contest this statement. We are speaking about source. Where do we fallen creatures source love? God. Where do we wandering beings source truth? Thy word and thy word alone….I rest my case.
You gave me a quote, but it didn’t answer my question. Perhaps you are missunderstanding what I am asking.
ALL Catholics believe that God’s Word is Truth. Down to a man, every one. So we agree there. But you claim that Scripture is the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY source for eternal Truth. Sola Scriptura. You believe in Sola Scriptura, right? So I am asking you to show me where IN SCRIPTURE, it teaches Sola Scriptura. Scripture ALONE.
But I commend you for finding that passage. Yes, I agree with you God’s Word is a Sacred Source of Truth.
Who told you that Alfred? Because they are wrong. Both of our Bibles come from the Greek, while ours also used Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts.
Let’s take this slowly okay.
There is the Old Testament. The Jewish Books. All of those were in Greek and Hebrew up until the time that the Temple fell in 70AD. The compilation which was in Greek, was called the Septuagint. This is the Scripture that Jesus and the Apostles always quoted.
After the Temple fell, Jewish Rabbis got all the manuscripts together and made sure that there was a HEBREW manuscript for EVERY GREEK manuscript. If there wasn’t, then they did not keep those books. Now remember, they had those books in their Scriptures for many years, but they were trying to preserve the Old Testament, now that the Temple was gone, so IF they could NOT find a HEBREW copy of a manuscript, and ONLY had the Greek one, they did NOT keep the Greek one. With me so far?
Then they recompiled the Old Testament, WITHOUT those Greek books. The Catholic Church kept the books that got thrown out, because these books were referred to by Jesus and the Apostles. When the Protestants put together their bible, they left those books out. The only REAL difference between our bible and yours, is that we have those books and they are ONLY in the Old Testament. The New Testament is exactly the same.
St. Jerome took ALL of the books that were in the FIRST Old Testament and translated them into Latin, because Latin was the language that everyone was speaking at the time. Remember that Rome had taken over? Greeks were gone, and Romans were in? Meanwhile, Pauls letters, and the Gospels and Peter’s letters and Judes letters and all of what we call the New Testament, was collected and put into one book, called the New Testament. These books were in Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic. Jerome translated them into Latin, again, because that was the language that everyone was speaking. Just like you and I speak English today. The first complete set of Scriptures, now known as the New Testament was compiled somewhere around 400AD. That’s a long time after Jesus’ death, right?
The Protestant bibles were taken straight from the Greek, and so were ours. The difference is ours were translated into Latin, and yours were translated into German or English, depending on who was doing the translating.
But they come from the same original sources. So they are just the same. Except for those few books in the Old Testament.
Catholics do not HATE the KJV because to hate the KJV would be to hate the Words of God. You should not hate our Translation for the same reasson.
Here is an example:
Your Version of John 6:32-38
Our Version of John 6:32-38
Now that is a very, very simple explanation. I am NOT a bible scholar and could have gotten some minor details wrong. If I have, I encourage others who know more than I to correct me.
What I do know, is that there was no real New Testament, in a single compiled form, for hundreds of years after Jesus died. And when it was compiled, it was compiled by what we now call the “Catholic Church”. It is called Catholic for one reason and one reason only. Because the WORD CATHOLIC means UNIVERSAL. And we, all of us Christians agree, that Jesus brought this Good News to EVERYONE. To the entire UNIVERSE.
The very first Christians are called Catholic for that reason. We were ONE, UNITED Church. ALL of us. For 1600 years we all belonged to ONE CHURCH. Then in 1600 or so, people started thinking they knew better and breaking off one by one and we were no longer one church, but thousands. But ALL of those Churches, including the Original known as the Catholic Church are CHRISTIAN. Catholics are Christian, Baptists are Christian, Lutherans are Christian. ALL of them. As a matter of fact ALL Christian Churches are actually CATHOLIC. Including the Church that you belong to, because there is only ONE Church…the Church that Jesus instituted. You and others are not in total communion//unity with the Catholic Church, but you are still part of it. We we are ALL Christians, and the bottom line is that we are ALL Catholics. Including you.
Alfred,
Thank you for explaining the rosary to me because I must admit that I was totally ignorant of the details. It does sound like a really beautiful concept and process. Does it get the results required?
Thank you. Yes, it is beautiful. I’m sad to see that you have gotten so much of your information from bad sources. I don’t expect you become a Catholic, but it would be nice if you took the time to understand what we really believe. First, you will be surprised that it is very, very similar to what you believe. And second, you will find that it is very much in keeping with Scripture. I love Jesus with all my heart and soul. I know you do too. I am so sorry that I didn’t give you the benefit of the doubt earlier. I really was hard on you. That was not very nice of me. I didn’t understand that you were a good person who was confused about what we believe. I thought you were a mean person just trying to hurt us. I should have known better. I really do hope you forgive me. Sometimes it’s hard on the internet because you can’t see the “person” and all you see are a bunch of words. I have to remind myself that a real live person is behind those words, and that I am capable of hurting their feelings.
Can I ask you something? When you pray, what do you say? Can you give me an example of the type of prayer you would say when you “go to the Throne and speak directly to Him”?
Know that we don’t ONLY say the Rosary. We have lots of types of prayers. Even singing is a prayer. Sometimes we just sit quietly with Him in our chapels and “be with Him” without talking at all. Sometimes we talk to Him just like we’d talk to each other. What do you do?
Your diplomacy is extremely charming and I suppose potentially disarming as that of the serpent in his encounter with Eve in the Garden of Eden. That ‘we be brethren’ speech I have heard on numerous occasions is usually used to conceal a hidden dagger so I will not lay down my two edged sword for it is the only Offensive weapon that I have.
Textus Vaticanus and the Alexandrian Texts came to prominence when the 1881 revised version of the bible was being made but don’t you find it strange that when the 1604 scholars were putting together the version under the authorization of King James the first that these were not considered. Could it be because they both came from Egypt and was replete with errors and omissions? That is what I am told. You claim that ‘all Catholics believe that God’s word is true’. As well-meaning as you are you cannot speak for all Catholics only for yourself. I know many Catholics that do not know what they believe or why and do not care to find out.
But I commend you for finding that passage. Yes, I agree with you God’s
Word is a Sacred Source of Truth. God’s word is not ‘a’ sacred source of truth my dear man: God’s word is ‘the’ only source of truth you need to get that sorted out in your mind. If I did not get led to that verse I am sure that God has hundreds of just as potent verse that I could have used …he just chose to show me that one.
Yes the temple and those religious Jewish rabbis do you think it was them that turned the world upside down with the preaching of Christ and his gospel of the death burial and resurrection. Not at all. It was some of the most unlikely people, fishermen, farmers, tentmakers, salesmen that moved from place to place spreading this mighty unstoppable gospel. We are looking at the miracle of the preservation of the hated gospel in the midst of the cruelty of roman domination. We are looking at staring death in the face and standing with Jesus. That is how our gospel was preserved with the blood of millions of saints. In homes of ordinary people who knew that it was a crime to speak his name and a sin not to. Take none of our glory for we will not share it with you any more than we will allow God’s word to be married to your flimsy traditions. We too have a tradition of dying with and for him because he died for us.
I understand and commend your attempt at diplomacy but we soldiers are here to fight and to die not to make peace with the enemy of truth and to marry your tradition with God’s word would be worse than eating of the forbidden fruit.
Dear MK, I have been fighting for so long time and against such an awful foe that I cannot put away my sword because it Cleveth to my hand. I never have to make an appointment to see my father. He has never been busy when I wanted to talk with him and I am always welcome. Most time I don’t know the right way to say what I want to say as you would have noticed but his Spirit living in me says it perfectly. I can stay with him as long as I want to because He treats me like I am the most important person in the universe and the only person on his schedule. When I go back to the battle
Alfred,
That ‘we be brethren’ speech I have heard on numerous occasions is usually used to conceal a hidden dagger so I will not lay down my two edged sword for it is the only Offensive weapon that I have.
All I can tell you is that I am sincere. I started feeling really badly the last couple of days. I’ve been praying very hard. I know you won’t understand what I’m going to say but here goes. I often place those that I converse with on the altar at Mass. I offer your souls up and pray that if God wants you to understand what I am trying to tell you, that He will open your heart to hear my words. Today at Mass, I placed myself there with you and asked that if there was something He wanted ME to hear, He would open MY heart so that I could hear it. What I heard was that I have done you an injustice. I am supposed to be representing HIM, not myself, and in being mean to you, I was NOT representing HIM. Sometimes I forget that He is one tough guy and He doesn’t NEED me to fight His battles. Then the reading today at Mass was very hard to hear. I showed it to you earlier, remember? From Peter?
Except it wasn’t the part about defending my “hope” that got to me. It was the part about doing it with gentleness and reverence. I have been woefully lacking in that. I understand why you wouldn’t believe me. But it is true nonetheless.
If I cannot carry on these conversations with love, then I have no business carrying them on at all. I know that, but sometimes I forget.
Alfred,
You claim that ‘all Catholics believe that God’s word is true’.<>
To BE a Catholic you must believe this. If you don’t, then you are a Catholic in name only. This is part of our “deposit of faith”...that Scripture is the Word of God.
<i>God’s word is not ‘a’ sacred source of truth my dear man: God’s word is ‘the’ only source of truth you need to get that sorted out in your mind.
But there is a difference between His “WORD”, which is Jesus, and His “WORDS” which are Scripture. The Words in Scripture are indeed Truth. BUT, Jesus Himself is also Truth. And the Apostles passed along the Truth by word of mouth, also, didn’t they? Didn’t Paul “PREACH” the Words? Didn’t He tell, with his mouth, all about Jesus? You see, in the Catholic Church, we believe that all of Scripture is True, but that some of the things Jesus wanted us to know are not in Scripture. Those things were left with the Apostles. And the apostles handed them down to us…by word of mouth, not writing. This is what we call the Apostolic succession. Didn’t John write in His Gospel that there are too many things to write down…it would fill more books than we could ever read?
We believe that Jesus wanted to protect His Words, and His Church. We believe that He knew people would try to twist His words, and add words and make up words. So we believe that He appointed a man to lead the Church. To protect Her. Just like you do. With his own two edged sword. Someone who was wise, and good, and obedient. We believe that man was Peter. And we believe that Peter did a good job, but he grew old. When it came time for Peter to die, he passed on his job to another faithful, good follower of Jesus. And we also believe that Jesus didn’t leave it up to men to protect the Church. Those men, we are told, would be guided by the Holy Spirit Himself. So that even if the men made mistakes, the Holy Spirit would keep them from harming the Church. This is why sometimes, a Pope has been a bad man, but still a good Pope. Because it isn’t really the Pope that guides and protects Jesus’ Church, but the Holy Spirit USING that man’s body and voice.
We believe that if Jesus had NOT done this, the Church would have fallen apart, because it would have been left in the hands of men, unprotected.
Even now, when you see all the thousands and thousands of different Churches, you know that divisions have crept in and we are no longer ONE Church, but many. Didn’t St Paul tell us NOT to let that happen?
Remember how you said that we are the Body Of Jesus? Doesn’t every Body have a Head? And arms and legs? Some members of the Body do the walking, some do the healing, some feed the poor? But there is a head, right? Now I know that Jesus is the Head of the EVERYTHING, but here on earth, while He is in heaven sitting next to His Father, wouldn’t He leave a Head here on earth? Didn’t He tell Peter to Feed His Sheep? Aren’t we the sheep? Who feeds the sheep? It’s the shepherd, right? Wouldn’t Jesus who loves us, leave us a shepherd, a head for His Body?
Remember when Paul talks about marriage? About the husband and wife? What does he say? He says that the Husband is the Head right? That wives should be subordinate to their husbands? We are to be subordinate to Jesus, because He is the head right? The Church is the bride, Jesus is the groom? But Jesus can’t be here with us now? So He sent the Holy Spirit, right? We believe that the Holy Spirit speaks THROUGH the other person that Jesus asked to be the Shepherd/Head of the Church. That was Peter and whoever Peter passed those keys to. All the way down to Pope Benedict. These Popes make sure that nobody messes with God’s Church. No one can harm His Bride. No one can change His words, or tell lies about what Jesus told us. If there are any questions, or confusions, we can look to the Pope and he will always tell us the Truth in matters of the Church. See? The Pope is not replacing Jesus. He is just representing Him until Jesus comes back. I know you don’t agree with all of that, but I hope you now understand who the Pope is and why we believe that He is our Shepherd until Jesus comes.
Oh and Alfred, both you and JoAnna have referred to me as a “he”. I am a “she”. I am the mother of 6 children. For a long time I didn’t love Jesus as I should. He was very wonderful to me, and brought me home again. No matter what differences you feel you have with Catholics, know that many of us love Jesus with our whole hearts and our whole minds and our whole souls. He is my best friend, and my brother, and my teacher, and my love. I love Him more than my husband, or my children or my grandchildren. He holds me when I am sad, and comforts me when I am afraid and teaches me to be kinder to others when they are sad and afraid. That’s why I felt so bad when I realized that you are not a mean person. I was the mean person. I wasn’t really listening to what you were saying. I was only hearing you call Mary names and saying bad things about the Church. But I wasn’t listening carefully and hearing that you were saying these things because you love Jesus and don’t want anyone to ever hurt Him. But I promise, the Catholic Church loves Him very much also. We would never hurt Him on purpose. But sometimes, we do hurt Him, when we aren’t kind to each other. I hear you now. I hear how much you love Christ, and I understand that you are protecting Him. That you are defending Him. I am telling you tho, that the Catholic Church is not the enemy. Abortion, and hatred, and the attacks on marriage…these are the enemies. We need to stand together to fight THEM, not each other. We really are both on the same side.
Alfred,
One last thing…here is an article that will explain what the word Catholic means, and that it was used to describe Christians since the year 106AD. That’s not very long after Jesus’ death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
“
All I can tell you is that I am sincere.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/major-supernatural-event-this-saturday/#ixzz1No7Koy6o”
MK (mostly you but to others on this board as well)- I have stayed out of this like I said I wasx going to, though the updates have gone to my email. I hope I express myself clearly and appropriately and with caring…if I don’t I beg my sisters and brothers forgiveness, I am trying.
I know nobody is perfect, me least of all- know that I know this, but I sat and watched people be horrible to each other day after day (some more than others)all in the name of our Lord. I watched his children go at each other with verbal knives and whips - in HIS name no less. Not just a simple lively discussion. I found the catholic members to be particularly abusive in my opinion. It just all boggled my mind. I expect that kind of thing out in the secular world, but I like to hope for better at least most of the time from those who know our Master. I was just saddened and horrified at what I saw.
Part of me had pretty much decided that catholics as a general group might very well be NOT nice people at all from the cross section I was seeing here. I have been trying to remind myself that nobody is perfect but that is hard when there is not one word without a sharp edge to it and thrown out to cut and wound. And a discussion about the Lord looks more like a battleground with wounded and dead more than anything else. I had decided I wanted nothing to do with catholics. I told Him about it and what it made me think and how it made me feel and asked for guidance.
Then you spoke your heart with kindness and I saw glimmers of our Lord showing through and was comforted. Suddenly my heart was touched, I felt the sincerity in your words and I was reminded that His children are in the catholic church too. You asked for forgiveness…you have mine for what that is worth. Too, too often I am sharp and abrasive and caught up in the moment I get almost mean. I often forget others in my own zeal to make my point. I cannot throw stones when I am every bit as guilty.
What particularly made a difference to me is that you said (most beautifully I might add) you understood that people that may not believe everything you believe. They are fighting just as hard as you, back at you, because they love our Lord so much. They may or may not be wrong in their particular beliefs but there at least should be rejoicing that the most essential element is there and shared- the very real and strong love for our Lord and the reaching for the truth. Once you have that, He will lead you where you need to be and go.
I wonder when and if we can come together as a family and not fight bitterly. Are they any less your brother or sister because they believe a little differently than someone else does? Ok, a brother or sister thinks they are wrong in their beliefs, fair enough, but there are kind ways to say such things and share information to try to help them see things a little differently. When you think family is going off a wrong direction, you do your level best to lovingly counsel them and if they don’t take your advice, you have to stand back, keep loving them and be there for them and hope for the best. That is what family does.
I have just wondered many times in the last week or so if the people on this board have any idea how they are affecting others who might read the board with their daggers and arrows and their attempts to hurt and make others feel and appear small. I was all but driven away and sour on catholics in general and more strongly convinced than ever that I wanted nothing to do with a particular church because of what I saw. Go to some church to be treated like THIS? After knowing the loving kindness of my Lord? I don’t think so. Even IF your beliefs are the correct way to believe, it is tragically lost amongst the anger and unkindness.
Also for what it is worth you have served as an important example for me you should know…when I am cranky and not so nice, I should own up to it, explain I know what I did, that it was wrong and ask for forgiveness. For that I thank you as I am always learning and needing reminding on what I should be doing.
I hope for blessings for you and your family sister.
Windchyme,
The last words in my mind before I fell asleep were “Lord forgive me, and help Alfred to do the same”...Your kind words…all I can say is you’ve made me cry.
I often debate with atheists and their style is very, very different than other Christians. Sometimes sarcasm actually helps, as it shows them that you aren’t some wimpy cult member. They respect you more when you can one up them. I am sincere in my arguments with them, but the style is waaaaay different. Much of the sarcasm is seen for what it is…banter. But poor Alfred. I went at him with no mercy. Sarcasm was lost on him, but the meanness came through loud and clear.
I didn’t deserve your kind words. I deserved a punch in the nose. Thank God He teaches Mercy instead of Justice or I’d in a lot of trouble.
The more I read Alfreds comments, the more I began to love him. His whole heart and soul are bared with every word he writes. His love for Jesus is palpable. He is one of the innocents of the world. What a lesson he taught me. Who would have thought. When I was praying for his heart and mind to be open, I just had the sickest feeling and I heard Our Lord say “Daughter, it’s not HIS heart that I’m worried about….” That brought me to my knees. God is so good to us. I must really try His patience sometimes. You’re probably not the only one that was reading these comments. I can only hope that all of those people accept my apology and know that I was the only one wrong here…Alfred is not the problem. Every nasty remark was like a new nail in Jesus’ hands and feet, a new thorn piercing his precious head. We think the only time He was crucified was on Good Friday, but we re-crucify Him daily with our cruelty. Lol…I might tell Alfred that Sola Scriptura is wrong….that Scripture is A source of Divine Truth but it is not the only, only, only source of Divine Truth…what I need to remember is that yes, Jesus died for me. But He didn’t die for only, only, only me. He died for Alfred too. And you. And everyone.
Your forgiveness means the world to me. If we cannot stand as one against the true enemies of Christ, I fear for our world and our children’s future. I set out to “teach” Alfred a lesson and ended up being the one who was schooled.
Peace be with you and your family also. May God continue to have Mercy on us all, and may we continue to have Mercy on one another.
Dear catholic friends and I do mean it when I call you friends.
One brother killed the other because God accepted his brother’s smelly, bloody sacrifice and rejected his beautiful aromatic, well decorated fruit basket. This is the story of Cain and Abel. The idea that being nice and proper and having everything in the right place is a wonderful concept from man’s way of thinking however God’s ways are not our ways neither his thoughts our thoughts as has history shown continuously. When we as the offspring of Adam were born, contrary to popular belief it was not in God’s perfect beautiful image but in Adams corrupt hell bound appearance. That is why it is not difficult to understand why over the past few day that battle between has been so intense. The battle between us blood washed saints and you nice, organized and proper folk of various religious persuasion has and always will be intense. We all without admitting it most time have one common principal which is, he that is not with us is against us. History as we in the third world well know is written by the wealthy and the Catholic Church has been the wealthiest organization for a while now. Truth is known by the victims so when we read the book of acts our history, the history of the church begins at Pentecost and the Holy Spirit filled saints has always been the outcast and rejected of this present world. We were warned about the deceivers of this world and are therefore not going to be drawn into any all-inclusive group calling themselves Christians or Catholics under any pope. Yes, I know that it has to happen and soon and that all the churches will come together under one leader and that the leader will be a mighty man of miracles that ‘looks like a lamb and speak like a serpent’ but we saints will not be a part of it. That is why saints that reject his mark will be killed because the illusion of freedom of religion is just that, an illusion.
Finally, while from your account of it Catholism is attempting to be all embracing. Christianity, true bible Christianity is very exclusive for unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Your faithfully Alfred D Smith
freddabbot@yahoo.com
Dear windchyme, Joanna, mk and all you other beautiful persons that I have been conversing with these last few days. I would like to thank you for the many thing that you have taught me. Loving you although we are not in agreement is easy for me because I see your sincerity and I do believe and pray that the grace of God that offers salvation to all men has shone into your hearts. As a saint and soldier of Jesus I must continue to fight this battle for many deceivers have gone out into the world that deny our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the only potentate. You are in my prayers.
Love Alfred D Smith
freddabbot@yahoo.com
Alfred,
God Bless You. Remember who your real enemies are. We are on the same side. You, Joanna, Me…we ALL walk with Christ. Forget about translations and interpretations. Just focus on the fact that all of us Love God above all else. We cannot battle against the Evil One if we are battling against each other. If we stand together, with God behind us, Jesus beside us and the Holy Spirit within us, we can do anything. With God all things are possible. So clean your sword, stand tall and fight the real bad guy. Peace my friend. I’m sure we will run into each other again, and when that happens, let’s “talk” and “listen” and fortify each other. God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
mk:
Rarely have I seen the combination of such ‘powerful’ and ‘effective’ Christian traits as you have exhibited over the last few days on this particular thread.
1) You have demonstrated a ‘strong’ desire to defend your faith.
2) You have demonstrated an above average ‘understanding’ of your faith.
3) You have demonstrated a willingness to persevere and engage in conversation with ‘unfriendly’ participants to ‘hopefully’ lead them to the Truth.
4) You have demonstrated the difficult ability to be able to teach in a simple but effective way… but still be able to ‘sincerely’ correct yourself when necessary.
5) You have demonstrated how to truly and humbly ‘speak from the heart’ which greatly affects others in a very deep way.
6) You… mk… have very simply demonstrated how to be a good and loving Christian.
Congratulations mk… the angels are smiling at you.
Keep up the good work!
ED,
Believe it or not, I am finally at a loss for words. That’s two days in a row I’ve found myself crying over my first cup of coffee. What kind and thoughtful things you’ve said. All I can say, oh my gosh, thank you! I feel as if I’ve just had a “hug” from God. It’s incredible the effects we can have on one another. God Bless You.
By the way, all of you people who claim that the 1611 King James is the best Bible might be confused if you ever get ahold of a copy—the 1611 King James, as opposed to later revisions of the King James, lists a reading from 1 Esdras—a book even Catholics consider Apocryphal—in the lectionary for today (and yes, the 1611 King James includes the Apocrypha.)
While, Mr Schenk, the King James authorized version of the bible has been edited 4 times to correct typing errors and to standardize the spelling, the final of the 4 editions coming in I769 It would amaze many of you to know that It has never been revised from the original translation.
Alfred D Smith,
When Thomas Nelson released the New King James Bible it also released a printing of the original 1611 King James Bible; get shold of a cocpy and you will see that all the changes that I pointed out are in the original 1611 King James Bible; what amases me is how you cling to your illusion of an unchanged King James Bible.
Here’s another change—while the main translation in the original 1611 King James for Luke 1:28 is “Haile [thou that art] highly-favoured,” an alternate translation offered is “much graced.”
Don’t confuse the editions of the King James that were censored and bowdlerized by puritans with the 1611 original.
...And the fact that it was the bishops of the Catholic Church who decided which books went into the New Testament, and part of their criteria was what the books taught, may be a “stacked deck” to Protestants, but that’s why the Bible could never oppose what the Catholic Church teaches.
It’s the Protewtants who tried to attack the teaching of the Church by citing a collection of books that the Church put together who stacked the deck against themselves.
If you have the time go to the website for author Ester Lighthorse. She discusses some interesting opinions on faith, God, and the Bible to include a sample reading of her re-write of the New Testament called The Tenement Gospel. Her link is: https://sites.google.com/site/esterlighthorse/
lmao. did it happen? NOT. keep acting like sheeple and the truth will always be kept out of view. haha
I’d wager to say that intolerance and ridicule for others views is also very limiting Jack. How can one really make a judgement about what the truth is when one is too busy or self important or critical to even bother to listen to others views and opinions.
Ridicule and intolerance to me speaks of a feeling of defensiveness because one feels threatened somehow and reacting aggressively to that feeling in order to ease it and prove their superiority over what threatens them. I’m just saying..
So what is threatening to you about others believing different or even being different than you?
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