It is so sad that God has been removed from the public sphere to the degree that these statements can be made and they raise very few eyebrows.

If I have no responsibility for how I dispose of that which belongs to me, the only possibility is that nothing belongs to me at all.

Thank you for writing this, Jen.  I have been coming to this question via a different avenue—namely the observation of so-called “helicopter parents,” over-scheduled children, and the nature of the vocations of every human person:  there seems to be this pervasive dual tendency to both over-indulge the child and treat the child as extensions of one’s self.  Ever since you’ve been writing about our culture of death, I have begun to wonder about what contraception and abortion have to do with it.

A facilitator in a men’s group once said:—— “We worry too much about our children.  We should not worry about them, God made them perfect: He made them *exactly* how He intended them.  But they are not ours, they are His.  They are in our stewardship for a while, on loan to us.  And one day, when He calls them back to Himself, He will expect us to have earned interest on them.”  Other than a miniscule quibble about not acknowledging the Fall in the second sentence, I could not agree more.

Why is birth the distinctive moment?  If you can determine not just the gender, but the mental status of a fetus, then isn’t it already a human being by all definitions, and thus aborting it would be murder?

If we “own” our children, and can thus make these sorts of decisions (not the decisions we are entrusted with a guardians of developing minds), then how are they any different than slaves, whose lives were subject to the “owners’” needs?

I just don’t understand the illogic paraded as sound reasoning.

It isn’t obvious, but this is intimately linked with contraception, the push for same sex marriage and the rest of the package. There are two fundamentally opposed ideas about what a marriage is: on the one hand, you have the traditional view- a marriage is a covenental exchange of persons into an indissoluble bond for the sake of forming and raising a family. On the other hand, you have the view that marriage is a contractual arrangement that exists solely to satisfy the desires of the adults who enter into it. No exchange of persons, no mention of children, no presumption of indissolubility. This understanding of marriage is only possible beause of contraception. Once you break the link between sex and children, relationships become nothing more than a means to personal fulfillment. Moreover, the only reason that so many people could think that same sex marriage is a “right” is because most of them have already bought into the contractualist understanding of marriage rather than the traditional understanding. If that really is all that a marriage is, a mutual satisfaction pact between adults, then of course it is going to seem like discrimination if you deny homosexuals should have access to it.

Right on the Head, Jennifer!  My own conversion away from this culture’s anti-life mentality came one Saturday while relaxing in front of the TV.  During a Discovery Channel documentary, a ‘fertility’ doctor and his patient negotiated the number of embryos to implant.  The doctor made glib remarks about how it was like shopping—they could get a few more off the shelf if she changed her mind!  What that implanted in me was the realization that child-bearing in our society is overwhelmingly viewed as a pursuit of commodities.  Praise God, it was a slap in the face for me, who had at the time a ‘who-can-it-hurt-if-they-really-want-babies’ attitude.

This blog goes perfectly into my rape-culture file.

Unfortunately, there seem to be more and more examples of this for the culture of death files.  And I agree with you,Marthos, this is all of a piece.  It’s frightening.

Jen, This was my thought exactly, only from the perspective that Catholic parents themselves sometimes have, when I wrote this:
http://www.zealforyourhouseconsumesme.com/2011/04/how-did-you-keep-your-kids-catholic.html

Courtesy of a good friend of mine, a conversation between herself and her son:  Mom—Who’s child are you?  Son—I’m God’s child Mommy!  Mom—Well, you tell Him, thanks for the loaner.

This article is great, thanks!!

I’ll respond to “This blog goes perfectly into my rape-culture file.”

Exactly how? Please expand.

We have heard many times over in defense of abortion, ‘what about rape?” How does abortion solve rape itself? Men must have respectful attitudes towards a woman’s body, including her ability to carry his child, to stop rape-culture from occurring.

Violence begets violence, rape creates a need for abortion. It’s an argument pro-choice relies on desperately. So I’m left to wonder, which side of the coin is in support the culture of rape?

The question is framed, should women be forced to give birth from rape?

We really should be asking should women be forced to have sex with men!

That’s what really great about what the Church teaches about sexuality. It really isn’t the oppressive tyranny I was lead to believe it to be. The Church’s teachings follow through what biologically we are and to respect our bodies and others. Both bride and groom must enter into marriage with consent and free will. And each time they may have sexual relations, it must be consenting and open to the possibility of a child. 

But for many, what I’m saying isn’t true. That somehow I’m making this all up. Somehow I must be completely delusional. I really have no other way of convincing anyone online, but for my testimony. I do have to say for those who know me off line, they know that my husband and I are doing something right.

Nora and Renee:

I used to work as a crisis counselor at a center for sexual assault victims.  I worked with women who were rape survivors.  In one of our support groups, we had a young woman who had become pregnant as a result from an acquaintance rape.  (The director of the center, who had been working there for 20 years, said it was the first time she’d ever seen that happen, by the way—pregnancy via rape is not as common as one would think.)

This beautiful young lady chose to keep the baby.  And raise the baby herself, with the support of her mother, who came to the group with her.

One of the other survivors in the group was angry with her for choosing this: “HOW can you possibly do this? How can you look at that baby, having it around as a reminder of the horrible thing that happened to you?”

And this brave young woman said, “Well, I guess I’m choosing to see it as God taking something horrible and giving me something wonderful out of it.”

I have never forgotten that young woman.  Nobody forced her to have the baby, she CHOSE to.  She chose not to punish the baby for the crimes of the father.  I thought that was amazing.

Maybe if we tried to teach people that babies are true innocents, that abortion carries with it a degree of trauma that, while not the same as rape, should not be dismissed, more women, if they found themselves in that situation (again, it’s very rare—Guttmacher put the percentage of abortions as a result of rape at about .5% in one of their studies), might choose life.  Even if it means choosing adoption.

fix the enhane please

Nora, I don’t know what else you would call it when a baby is killed simply because of how it happened to be created.  I used the word “punish” because that was the word this young woman chose to use when talking about it more; she said she didn’t see why the baby deserved to be punished for something it had no control over.  I apologize for not clarifying why I used that word.  Is that manipulative, to repeat what a woman who was actually in that situation said?

The funny thing is…this woman told us that she had always been “pro-choice.”  That she thought abortion was okay in the case of rape. But when it came down to her child, a complete and total innocent, she realized how wrong it was.  That’s what I pray for every woman who finds herself in the middle of that decision making process.

@ Nora,
I’m just trying to understand your position, so feel free to correct me if I’m misinterpreting what you said.

Sometimes, a baby has to die because a woman was violated. 
The baby is innocent, but innocent people die in war, too.
Therefore, just as we should be okay with a baby dieing because a woman was violated, we should be okay with innocents dieing in war.

To think otherwise is to be a rapist.

Is that what you meant?

@Nora:

Another way to look at it is that women who choose to abort babies conceived in rape are taking out their pain on the baby, taking another human being’s body from them, abusing it, and brutalizing it—to the point of death.

Murder does not solve rape.

I live in the real world, too.  I actually know two mothers who had their rapist’s babies.  How many of those women do you actually know?  The ones I know would be horrified that their situations were being used to rationalize what they see as murder.  And, if you google Rebecca Kiessling, you will find lots of information about victims of rape and the stories of the children they allowed to live.

You said in your response to samcarter: “I’m not denying that abortion is killing a human life” and then said that innnocents die in war, too, as if that somehow makes both situations okay. 

I’m not okay with innocents dying in war, but there is nothing that I can think of that I can do about that.  I’m not okay with innocents being killed at all.  So, in this particular arena, there are concrete things I can do.

Also, as far as I can tell from the soldiers I’ve read about, the death of innocent human beings is not, and never should be, the primary objective of war when our country is involved.  However, if abortion is killing a human life, the primary objective of that medical procedure is killing a human being.  So, there is a huge degree of difference in the objective of both those situations.

NO God, No Scruples.

And as far as these “Pro-Choice” (to KILL unwanted babies), should realize that their own bodies are not their own either—They are God’s.

Telling that to a feminist that thinks its OK for women to rip babies out of themselves should shut them up if they actually say they believe in GOD! (Same goes for guys, too, who may actually try to talk women into aborting their own children!)

So, as long as someone gets to choose to kill someone else, that makes it okay?

Or, as long as we describe pregnancy as violation, it’s okay?  Incidentally, that could be used also by women who consented to the sex, but “didn’t want the baby, but the sex was good.”

If you really believe, as you stated, that abortion is killing an innocent human being, I really don’t understand the mindset that the deliberate destruction of an innocent life is ever okay.

It is my will that an innocent human being should not die.  And that, apparently, makes me a rapist. 

I’m very confused.

I really don’t understand the argument that death is less destructive than pregnancy.  Or that pregnancy is more traumatic than death.  Or that a pregnant woman or a doctor should be given a license to kill.  Or that abortion “solves” rape.  Can you explain these arguments?  Because I just don’t get it.

And, apparently, God thinks it’s okay for a woman to have an abortion, but thinks that I’m a rapist to think killing an innocent is wrong.

Still not getting it.

@ Nora, also, the actual women cited (and there’s lots more if you look up that name I gave) would oppose keeping abortion legal for the reasons you cite.  And they were in those situations.  It was their situation.  Yet, when I pass on that you do not speak for them, I am called a rapist.  They would take issue with that as well. 
How many woman have you known who were pregnant from rape?  Who made you their voice?  How many times have you been pregnant?  Because you don’t sound from your comments like you actually understand what pregnancy is or feels like. 
So, you are somehow qualified to speak to the situation, but no one else is, and, if they dare disagree with you, they must be rapists. 
You need to not use that word so much.  It begins to lose its meaning, which is a slap in the face to the women you claim to be helping.

@ Nora,

You described pregnancy as a violation when you said this:
“Also, the objective in seeking an abortion after rape is to preserve one’s own body from further violation, from further unwanted, unsolicited intrusion by another human being. The objective isn’t to kill a baby for killing a baby’s sake”

Oh no, missy—we’re done when I say we’re done.

Now we’re done.

When my son was a little boy I was kneeling in front of the tabernacle and I consecrated him to our Lord. I knew that he would be with me only for a brief period of time and I know that when he will leave home to enter the seminary my grief will be overwhelming. I just know that since the moment he was conceived he did not belong to me but it was just a temporary gift to better myself.

My mother always made it clear that she did not want to have children and she even tried to abort me. She told me that more than once. Now she is upset that my family is really devoted to God. Guess who always wanted me and never stopped to seek me? I just hope not to be too disappointing to my Father in Heaven.

@ Nora,
Actually, you have continously misrepresented what I’ve said.  I’ve been directly quoting you when I was attributing something to you.

If abortion is the the death of an innocent human being, then it is always the death of an innocent human being, whether the pregnancy came about consentually or otherwise.

And I have heard pro-choicers describe every unwanted pregnancy in the language you’re using—whether rape was a factor or not.  So, since you all use the same terms, you are more closely aligned with them than with someone who believes that abortion is wrong because an innocent being dies. 

I’m sorry that’s hard for you to deal with.

The death of a human being is the death of a human being.  If you can look into the face of a newborn child and think that if the circumstances surrounding their conception had been different, it would be okay to terminate them, that is disturbing.
So, you’re right, we probably will never agree, but calling me a rapist and saying I’m “freaking out” doesn’t change the fact that the death of an innocent is the death of an innocent.  Nothing can change that.

@ a father and son,
What a beautiful sentiment.

Mouse—you’re right.  I read the conversation above, and you did, indeed, quote Nora exactly.  Nor did I get the sense that you were the one freaking out here.  This statement of yours is precisely right:  “The death of a human being is the death of a human being.  If you can look into the face of a newborn child and think that if the circumstances surrounding their conception had been different, it would be okay to terminate them, that is disturbing.”  We simply cannot continue to define people based on the circumstances of their conception—it is the definition of unjust.  The hard cold fact is, many people are victims of terrible crimes, of terrible evil.  Many of them must endure the physical and psychic consequences of that evil for much longer than nine months, and many would be glad if, at the very least, some good could tangibly come from their circumstances.  That we have allowed ourselves to be blinded to what is truly good, and that we allowed patriarchal thinking to infect us with the notion that a baby is some kind of parasite planted by a man is a terrible tragedy.

@Nora: I think that it is important to ask yourself this one simple question. Does the nature of a baby’s conception change the baby into a non-baby? Of course not. A baby is still a baby regardless of how the baby was conceived. Aborting it, therefore, is killing a baby. What you are saying is that it is okay for a woman to kill a baby if the baby was conceived by a rapist. This is not a pro-life position. A pro-life position is that all life, regardless of the circumstances of conception, has the right to life.

Basically—If you don’t want a child, keep your pants on then!  This should be what is to be taught to kids—not that you should wear a condom and hope for the best or rip a kid out the womb just becuase “you don’t wnat it”—Humans have free will—Poeple are not animals—So stop acting irresponsible with your actions.

We all know that there are MANY poeple out there that drink, do drugs and leads to regretful behavior…BUT, a child shouldn’t have to pay for poeple’s stupidity!

@Nora: You are angry and defensive. No one has attacked you, but you clearly feel attacked to the point where you are name calling and lashing out at others. This is not the behavior of someone who is feeling peace, or who carries love in their heart for all of God’s people. It is the behavior of someone who is in pain but is not ready to confront that pain and seek healing for it. I’m praying for you, Nora. I don’t know what you’ve gone through but I know that whatever it is, there is peace to be had in forgiveness and God intends good for you out of what has happened if you will only give to Him your pain.

Brandy, you’re a kind person, and a good example for us.  Me, I’m kind of hoping Nora’s really gone, and am happy to say good riddance.  Unfortunately, she keeps threatening to leave and then never doing it, proving Sartre right, I suppose.  Anyway, in spite of myself, I join you in prayer for her, and for a few other people (and for myself, because I obviously need it too!)

(And yeah, Nora, you sound an awful lot like someone else here.  Troll much?  I dare you not to respond.)

I have always looked at the birth of a baby as the co-creation of another soul to give glory to God.  Every child we refuse, by contraception or abortion, is denying God another soul to live happily with Him in eternity.
God does not give the gift of life and then abandon the parents and child.

Therese60640,
I agree with you about pre-born babies having souls.
I have to say, though, that I’ve always believed that the soul occurs at the moment that life does: at conception.
That being said, wouldn’t aborted and miscarried children already have souls and thus the capacity to be with God? 
I’m not saying that this means abortion should be okay at all.  Rather, that every child aborted could still have the ability to see God.

Elizabeth K.,
Thanks for your kind post earlier.
I’m not sure I agree that Nora is a troll.  I get the feeling she fervently believes that what she’s saying is true.  That’s why she got so very upset to hear her own words quoted back at her. 
I’m pretty sure no one else on the thread was name-calling, and yet she seems to think we’re the immature ones. 
I think it can be very disconcerting to have a mirror held up to one’s world view to show it in a different light than we’re used to seeing.

That was a sad exchange.  There was an article somewhere a little while back discussing how the differences between people fighting for the same cause hampers real progress towards that goal.  Here’s an unfortunate example.  I got the impression that Nora is sympathetic to the pro-life movement, except in cases of rape.  While that doesn’t jive with those of us who cannot support any abortion, she still seems to be one next to whom we could fight for major pro-life issues.  But I don’t see how we can reconcile those differences, either.  Her stance to us seems to ignore the basic foundation of life issues, that we are absolutely never allowed to take the life of an innocent intentionally.  If anyone can discern a way to reconcile those differences so that we can move forward in the march for life, please suggest them.  Here, sure, but especially to those leaders who need all the support and help they can get.

Conor, This same discussion/argument has taken place in countless threads on this site over the yrs. It seems like the prolife-proabort are getting more entrenched, sad to say.
  I can only marvel at the muddled thinking that can live with “against abortion except for rape etc” or “it’s a woman’s thing,I can’t tell her what to do” etc. I marvel bc I used to think the same way then i began substituting the word “slavery’ for the word “abortion”...and it was easy to see how silly those arguments become. E.g., “I’m against slavery except blah blah” or “I can’t tell slaveowners what to do..”  So, when you suggest we move forward, I am with you but i’m afraid that, as the highschoolers I work with say, Abortion is the Slavery issue of their generation &, in the end, there’s too much money at stake for the Ab Industry to foster much mutuality.

@Elizabeth K: People who are rude or unkind are always in some kind of pain. It is something I try to keep in mind when dealing with them. I do myself and my argument no benefit at all if I respond in kind.

@Brandy:  I’ll keep your words in mind.:)
@mouse:perhaps not a troll.  But often trolls do deliberately misread posts on these kinds of comboxes and then sow dissension by insisting on their incorrect readings.  But you’re right, I don’t know that that is the case here.

The “implicit hierarchy of value” is not that the unborn baby is more valuable than the mother; it’s that - in an abortion - the unborn baby’s *death* is more significant than nine months (less, actually, since one generally doesn’t know immediately) of pregnancy for the mother.

The pro-choice idea that pro-lifers value unborn children over women is a complete misunderstanding: it’s actually that we consider death worse than pregnancy, which is something everyone rational should agree on.

Also, one should not lose sight of the fact that less than one percent of abortions are due to rape.

Nora subscribes to moral relativism. A few comments on this post will not change that into realization of the existence of absolute right and wrong and the need to avoid consenting to evil.

Cannot enter a meaningful discussion if intentional consentof the will to an absolute wrong seems OK.

Mouse,
THank-you for pointing that out so quickly about when the soul is infused into the body.  I realized what I had written about two minutes after I hit send, and couldn’t get back to it until now.  I COMPLETELY agree with you!!

” I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.” .
Written to Jeremiah by God

I know this post is old; I’m new to the NCR.  I approach the ‘His or ours’ topic from a different standpoint: My 11 year old son is fighting leukemia now.  One of the hardest realizations I’ve come to is that ultimately, my son is just a gift to me, not someone I own or possess.  Were he mine, I wouldn’t have allowed him to get cancer, or would have at least cured him, lickety-split.  I pray that God will cure him, but in the end, that’s God’s decision, not mine.  Because ultimately, he is God’s, not mine.