May Cardinal Martini rest in peace. He has been a wonderful servant of God. He has obeyed his conscience and he has proved himself a loyal son of St Ignatius of Loyola by givng his whole hearted service to God and to Mother Church. I have heard of him as a person who was always cheerful and had always appreciated others. May he enjoy God’s loving Presence now.

The late Cardinal Archbishop of Milan was frequently referred to as the “Liberal Lion of Vatican II.” He was often at odds with the official teachings of the Church.

A wonderful priest I know studied in Rome and many of his classes were at the Pontifical Gregorian University, where the late Cardinal was rector for many years. This solidly orthodox priest told me that all the seminarians referred to the Jesuit university in Rome as “the Death Star” as it reminded them of the dark, gloomy, bare and artifical world shown in Star Wars. He said it was a hotbed of heterodoxy and the seminarians considered it “a miracle” if students “came out of it with their faith in tact.”

Such was the legacy of the Cardinal.

May God have mercy on his soul.

May God have mercy on his soul and on the souls of those who embraced the hermeneutic of rupture in the way they interpreted Vatican II. The damage that this interpretation of the Council has done to the Church is incalculable.

I cannot fathom how someone like this man with these strange and heretical views could make it all the way to the rank of a Cardinal and an Archbishop of one of the most noted diocese in the history of Christianity. May God have mercy on his soul indeed!

It always saddens me when an Ecclesiatic of the Church who was at odds with the very Church he served, leaves this world. I don’t pretend to judge his soul, only God will do that. I do hope that God judges him with his unfathomable mercy. The Holy Father and Cardinal Bertone spoke of good things about him. Such words for a deceased wayward Ecclesiastic are always carefully worded. One example was the words of Bl. John Paul ll upon the demise of Arhbishop Marcel Lebefvre, the Holy Father simply said, “We reccomend his soul to the Mercy of God.”. When will we men learn that as we roam this world, one day it will come to an end and then comes God’s Judgment. I hope that the Holy Father would write an Encyclical on the 4 last things, Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell. The importance of the 4 Last Things must be revived.

I think we have had too many Martini’s. Good bye and may God have mercy on you, you big mischief maker! There is no fool like an old fool. When young dissent is called independence. In middle age dated bad habit. When old, and out of date poor old man making a big fool of himself! Many vandal had zeal. Your zeal was for yourself and indeed being groovy! Good bye. Thank you God for death. It comes for all men. It comes for you!

John Fisher, Your post was one of evil. You do not know God’s Judgement. I agree that there have been too many in the Church who have caused great havoc in the Church. But we do not know their last thoughts. Perhaps on your own demise, you will be judged in the exact manner in which you youself judge. Lets instead pray and offer sacrifices for the conversion of poor sinners. BTW did you post this comment so as to stimulate this thread or was it truly a comment that offends God.

The Church is a big tent with room for a lot of opinion. Let’s all say a decade of the rosary for Cardinal Martini—to welcome him to the garden of perfect peace. And a decade for John Fisher—to gentle his judgment of the Cardinal’s soul.

Cardinal Martini would have made a great pope. I will pray to Jesus that one day he will send us a younger Martini to rule the Church after Benedict XVI.

  “Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today; and the same for ever.”
What was sin and wrong yesterday, can never be virtue and right today.

Catholics are not called to obey our conscience especially when our consciences are malformed.

Catholics are called to obey ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church on Faith and Morals.  We are not cafeteria Catholics.

Catholics are called to believe and profess our Catholic CREED.

Catholics are called to obey the teaching of our God and Saviour Who Is The Word made flesh. Who spoke through His prophets and through His Church.

Upon hearing of this death, I am relieved that a source of perverse doctrine, disruption and scandal is no more.  These words of scripture came rushing into my mind.

Jeremias (Jeremiah) 50:6 “My people have been a lost flock, their shepherds have caused them to go astray, and have made them wander in the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.”

[27] For I have not spared to declare unto you all the counsel of God. [28] Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[29] I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30] AND OF YOUR OWN SELVES SHALL ARISE MEN SPEAKING PERVERSE THINGS, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEM. [Acts 20:30]

41] And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea. [Mark 9:41] .

I hope he repented for his sins that have led many souls astray and from some these comments are still being led astray.

May God have mercy on us all.

Gerard, ‘The Church is a big tent with room for a lot of opinion’

The Church is not a tent.

The Church is the Bride of Christ… The Mystical body of Christ comprised of saints and sinners. 

The Church is also made up of the Church Militant, Church suffering and Church Triumphant. 

Here we are not speaking of “a lot of opinion”.  Here we are speaking of Doctrine.

Heaven is not a “garden of peace” Heaven is The Beatific Vision.

Matthew16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

Please, will someone kindly tell me who in the New Testament said:

“Woe to you, white-washed tombs!”
“Woe to you, hypocrites!”
“Better a millstone be hung around your neck, and you be tossed into the sea, instead of leading one of these little ones astray.”  And “On that day, they will come to me and say, ‘Lord, Lord, we preached in your name, we healed in your name’, and I will say to them, ‘Depart from me, you doers of iniquity, I never knew you.’”

White-washed tombs, hypocrites, tossed into the sea, doers of iniquity.  Who is that written about?  Me and you?  Church leaders?  No one?

If God Himself says, “I never knew you” and “Depart from me”, does that mean He has mercy on them, after their death, He’s just postponing it for a while, like a time-out?  Or will those people’s souls go where there is “wailing and gnashing of teeth” for ETERNITY?

What about the Rich Man and Lazarus - when Abraham said, “They have the law and the prophets” - meaning they should KNOW right from wrong, and what God wants.  They will get no other “messages”.  Isn’t that Bible account for our benefit?

Ought not our church leaders be aware of these teachings? Was God just kidding?  Was God just being dramatic?  Is everlasting life something about which we can all just take lightly?

Terah James, “Please, will someone kindly tell me who in the New Testament said…:”

It is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity Who is God Who said all that in the New Testament: [Mark 9:41] references are given.

Posted by Angelo on Sunday, Sep 2, 2012 2:19 AM (EST):
“The Holy Father… spoke of good things about him…words of Bl. John Paul ll upon the demise of Arhbishop Marcel Lebefvre, the Holy Father simply said, “We reccomend his soul to the Mercy of God.”

Angelo, you must know what the Holy Father said upon the demise in 2008, of the close and good friend of Blessed John Paul II, Fr. Marciel Maciel.  It was proven that Father Marciel abused boys and fathered at least one child himself. Maciel maintained relationships with at least two women and fathered up to six children, two of whom he allegedly abused as well.

I wonder if it might be possible for the news agency that conducted the Cardinal Martini interview to publish the transcript so that the context of the questions might be seen.  Also what was the context of an interview with a sick man on his death bed.

Blessed Pope John Paul II in 1993 in his encyclical Veritatis Splendor reaffirmed the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on the subject of truth and conscience that there can only be one truth. The Holy Father also pointed out in section 5

“If this Encyclical, so long awaited, is being published only now, one of the reasons is that it seemed fitting for it to be preceded by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which contains a complete and systematic exposition of Christian moral teaching…”

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

I don’t know what Pope Benedict XVl said upon the death of Fr. Maciel. One thing I’m sure of, the Holy Father did not canonize him. It has been proven that Maciel was a wolf in sheeps clothing. I myself once had a great admiration for him. When the allegations came out about his double life, I could not, would not believe it. But it turns out the allegations were true. I will not say he went to hell, his actions certainly deserved it as do our own, but many souls convert at their final breath of life. Years ago a priest said to me, “We can never judge the fate of anothers soul, because we do not know what his last thoughts were.” In approved apparitions of Our Lady, she has time and again called on us to pray for our Bishops and our priests, judging from the past 40 years we have not been doing a very good job of praying for them. Lets increase our prayers. Perhaps those who have in fact taken Our Lady seriously and prayed for Bishops and Priests, just may have caused the final repentance of Martini, Lefebvre and Maciel. I believe it was St. Alphonsus Liguori who said that when we die we will be surprised at who is in heaven and who is in hell. Those we thought would be in heaven will be in hell and those we thought went to hell will be in heaven.

One can hear the voices filled with self-righteous anger ; the thirst for punishment, blood and pain.  The uncompromising demand for God’s punishment.  The people are shouting . . . “heretic, heretic, crucify him, crucify him . . Those are the demands echoed through some of comments about the death in this article about one of their own members of the Roman Catholic Church.
Look up the word ‘judgment’ in your dictionary and you will not find a single reference to term ‘punishment’.  That latter has to do with the world.  Judgment when used by Jesus means ‘to restore’.  To restore the love that you never received or were not nourished with as you grew up.  Perhaps you did not experience God’s love at home, school or in your religious institution.  Salvation, or God’s healing touch has to do with the present.  It is not found in the past or the future and therefore is not about getting into heaven.  God desires to be with ALL his children (including Cardinal Mantini and you).  When we start thinking about who is right, who is wrong, who is in and who is out, we are closing the door on the Kingdom which begins right here on earth.  God’s unconditional love is just that UNCONDITIONAL.  God does not punish, reward or hand out favours.  He loves ALL of his creation equally.  He does not remember your sins – we do (at least as long as we haven’t forgiven yourself).
It is not about being Catholic, Muslim, or Jew.  It is not about this dogma or that doctrine, Vatican II, or obedience to a set of rules (especially when applied to others).  It is about taking responsibility for your own actions, deeds and thoughts.  It is about recognizing the Christ within and become a Kingdom person - free to Love God, your neighbor and yourself!

Posted by Angelo on Sunday, Sep 2, 2012 7:09 AM (EST):
“John Fisher, Your post was one of evil. You do not know God’s Judgement”

Angelo, are you aware that you have judged John Fisher calling his ‘post one of evil’ only because he points out to the truth of Martini’s scandalous words and actions in misleading the faithful?  John does ask God to have mercy on Martini’s soul..

“Martini was outspoken and often critical in his remarks and writings about the church. In his last interview, HE CONDEMNED THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AS “200 YEARS BEHIND” AND NEEDING RADICAL TRANSFORMATION.

In the interview, he also took a progressive stance on marriages after divorce…WAS FAMOUS FOR HIS COMMENTS about the use of contraception that it should be viewed as acceptable

Martini was… lauded as a man of dialogue and viewed with affection by reform-minded Catholics.”

Regarding Martini, these words of our Lord come to mind: “Woe to you when men shall bless you: for according to these things did their fathers to the false prophets. [Luke 6:26], Woe to you, because you are as sepulchres that appear not, and men that walk over are not aware. [Luke 11:44]”

As for Archbishop Lefebvre, he does not belong in the ranks of Marciel and Martini.

Bearing in mind that the Catholic Church did not start with Vatican II, Archbishop Lefebvre will in the not too distant future, be seen as the Athanasius of our time.

Trebert - “…‘judgment means restore’…it is not about being Catholic…It is not about this dogma or that doctrine…or obedience to a set of rules…Kingdom people.”

You are indeed an excellent student of Martini.  You have just made up your own religion and fabricated a Jesus to suit yourself. 

Catholics do not use the dictionary to understand Holy Scripture.

As Catholics we must believe in The CREED:  “He will come to judge the living and the dead.”  Catholics must believe in death, resurrection, purgatory, heaven and hell.

After death, only the Holy Souls in Purgatory after their purification will be restored and enter Heaven which is the Beatific Vision of God.

Catholics must believe in the unchanging Magisterium of the Catholic Church on Faith and Morals.

Our Lord Jesus Christ THE WORD MADE FLESH and dwelt amongst us is the final Authority.  His Mystical Body, His Bride THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH is the guardian and interpreter of Holy Scripture. 

Jesus said:
[36]…his disciples came to him, saying: Expound to us the parable of the cockle of the field.

[37] Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth the good seed, is the Son of man.

[38] And the field, is the world. And the good seed are the children of the kingdom. And the cockle, are the children of the wicked one.

[39] And the enemy that sowed them, is the devil. But the harvest is the end of the world. And the reapers are the angels.

[40] Even as cockle therefore is gathered up, and burnt with fire: so shall it be at the end of the world.

[41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity.

[42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Matthew 13:42

[10] For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil. [2 Corinthians 5:10]

[10] The proper things of the body: In the particular judgment, immediately after death, the soul is rewarded or punished according to what it has done in the body.

…[10] But into whatsoever city you enter, and they receive you not, going forth into the streets thereof, say:

[11] Even the very dust of your city that cleaveth to us, we wipe off against you. …[12] I say to you, it shall be more tolerable at that day for Sodom, than for that city….

[14] But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgement, than for you. [15] And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.

[16] He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

[17] And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying: Lord, the devils also are subject to us in thy name. [Luke 10:17]

As for God not punishing, this is one of the errors of this era. St. John the Evangelist says, “We all know this, God rewards every good and punishes every sin.”. This is the teaching of the Church, when we sin there are 2 consequences, guilt and satisfaction. Guilt is forgiven in the Confessional or with a good act of contrition. But because we offend the justice of God we are punished by him. If it were not so, then there would be no need for purgatory, Lent, Advent, Fridays as a day of penance, penance after confession, Indulgences, “Alms that cover a multitude of sins” ect…ect…ect… Celinedesilva, I did in fact make a judgement about John Fisher. It was a Fraternal correction that is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy. John Fisher did in fact call for God’s Mercy on the Soul of Cardinal Martini. But HOW did he ask it?! You may wish to reread his way of asking for it. Also I have heard a million times of how Lefebvre is compared to St. Athanasius. St. Athanasius did not commit a formal act of schism that caused a deep wound in Christ’s Church. Huge difference!

Here is the Pope’s beautiful tribute to Cardinal Martini:

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
At this time I would like to express my closeness in prayer and affection, to the entire Archdiocese of Milan, the Society of Jesus, relatives and all those who loved and esteemed Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini and have wanted to accompany him on this last journey.
“Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light for my path” (Ps 119: 105): the Psalmist’s words can sum up the entire existence of this generous and faithful pastor of the Church. He was a man of God, who not only studied the Bible, but loved it intensely, he made it the light of his life, so that everything was “ad maiorem Dei gloriam,” for the greater glory of God . And for this reason he was able to teach believers and those who were seeking the truth that the only word worthy of being listened to, accepted and followed is that of God, because it shows all the path of truth and love. He did so with a great openness of heart, never refusing to encounter and dialogue with anyone, responding concretely to the Apostle’s invitation to “always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope ” (1 Peter 3:15). He was, with a spirit of profound pastoral charity, according to his Episcopal motto, Pro veritate adversa diligere, attentive to all situations, especially the most difficult, lovingly close to those who were lost, the poor, the suffering.
In one of the homilies of his long ministry at the service of this Ambrosian Archdiocese he thus prayed: “We ask you, Lord, make us spring water for others, bread broken for others, light to those who walk in darkness, life for those who grope in the shadows of death. Lord, be the life of the world, Lord, guide us towards your Easter, and together we will walk towards you, carrying your cross, we will taste communion with your resurrection. Together with you we will walk towards the Heavenly Jerusalem, towards the Father “(Homily of March 29, 1980).
May the Lord, who guided Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini his whole life, receive this tireless servant of the Gospel and of the Church in the Heavenly Jerusalem. May my blessing comfort all those present and those who mourn his loss.
From Castel Gandolfo, September 3, 2012
BENEDICTUS PP. XVI

Theresa Maccarone, Thank you for posting the Holy Father’s tribute to Cardinal Martini. It gives me great hope that he left this world with the Mercy of God. It certainly lifts the burden of doubt with confidence. Cardinal Martini, Requiescat In Pace! Et Lux Perpetua Dona Eis!                                    !

Regardless of what our Holy Father says in Charity. 

God will judge this man who has proved to be “a hireling,...Not the shepherd, ...seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flieth: and the wolf catcheth, and scattereth the sheep: [John 10:12]

Below is his last interview given in 2011 to be published a day after his death.

“First, from Rorate comes this, which begins with the old …
De mortuis nihil nisi bonum [(Say) nothing but good about the dead.]  A good rule, certainly, a hallmark of civilization, and one we have always observed.

When the dead person himself chooses to cause uproar in a “posthumous” interview timed to be released immediately following his death and published in order to criticize the Church that gave him everything he had and that made him everything he was, then, our prayers having been said, we can only affirm, without referring to any specific person: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/09/two-notes-about-the-late-card-martini-r-i-p/”

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31404186/detail.html

Catholic Church ‘200 years behind,’ Cardinal says before death
From Livia Borghese, for CNN

ROME (CNN) - IN AN INTERVIEW PUBLISHED A DAY AFTER HIS DEATH, a prominent progressive Catholic cardinal left the best summary of his contribution to debates within the Church.

“THE CHURCH HAS REMAINED 200 YEARS BEHIND THE TIMES. Why has it not been shaken up?” Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said in an interview published in Saturday’s Corriere dell Sera newspaper. “Are we scared? Fear instead of courage? However, faith is the fundamental to the church.”

MARTINI WAS KNOWN FOR HIS PROGRESSIVE POSITION ON SOME OF THE CHURCH’S MOST CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES, INCLUDING PRIESTLY CELIBACY, THE USE OF CONDOMS, EUTHANASIA AND HOMOSEXUALITY.

Even after his retirement, MARTINI RAISED “SUBTLE THOUGH CRUCIAL OBJECTIONS” TO THE CHURCH’S OPPOSITION TO ALL CASES OF ASSISTED FERTILITY, DISTRIBUTION OF CONDOMS TO AIDS VICTIMS, AND SO-CALLED RIGHT-TO-DIE CASES, TIME MAGAZINE REPORTED IN 2007.

HE “POLITELY CHALLENGED” THE POPE’S STRONG CONDEMNATION OF AN ITALIAN GOVERNMENT PROPOSAL TO LEGALIZE CIVIL UNIONS FOR HOMOSEXUAL PARTNERS AND VOICED SUPPORT FOR THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS DEACONS, Time reported.

Italy’s ANSA news agency said Martini was considered one of the more liberal high-ranking representatives of the Catholic Church.

THANK GOD HE IS DEAD. MAY GOD CLEAR “THE SMOKE OF SATAN WHICH HAS CREPT INTO HIS HOLY CHURCH”

Celinedesilva, I understand where you are coming from. It always saddens me when an unfaithful Ecclesiastic dies. I speak out against modernists and ultra-traditionalists, but I don’t hope for their damnation. To do so would be a grevious offense against God. Let us not presume to know the fate of the deceased because we don’t know their last thoughts. Unless of course we are into the occult. I will say that I am a Novus Ordo Traditionalist. So I am against both Heresy and Schism. Things that Martini said certainly saddened me. But in Christ he is my Brother and I hope for his salvation. I don’t excuse his heresies, neither do I will his damnation.

Angelo, you do not know where I am coming from.

No one can hope for or will another’s damnation.  I certainly don’t.
.

Our salvation is entirely dependent on us that we freely and fully cooperate with the grace and mercy of God through the Sacraments in living out God’s will for us in the vocation we are called to:

IN NOT BEING AN OCCASION OF SIN AND LEADING OTHERS ASTRAY IN WORD, ACTION OR EXAMPLE;
In faithfully and intensely believing in our Catholic Creed and defending it;
IN OBEYING ALL GOD’S COMMANDMENTS INCLUDING THE ENTIRE MAGISTERIUM OF OUR HOLY MOTHER CHURCH.

I too go to the Novus Ordo Holy Mass and sing in a Traditional choir that obeys “Sacrosanctum Concilium” regarding Gregorian chant having primacy of place in the Liturgy (no guitars and drums here).

I also attend the most reverent and beautiful Traditional Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that produced Countless saints through the centuries. As a young person I have come to realize how much people who should know better, like Cardinal Martini has robbed us of our Catholic heritage and have led countless souls astray by their disobedience and heretical teaching.

As for Schism, Archbishop Lefebvre treasured and insisted that the Authentic Faith and Tradition handed down by all the popes be preserved intact.  They never left the Church. John Paul II excommunicated them. And in 2009, Pope Benedict XVI lifted their excommunications.  I await the day of their homecoming.

Cardinals Martini’s public last testament to the Church speaks for itself.
Each individual is the only one that can choose salvation or damnation by spurning God’s graces and the Magisterium of His Church.

It is significant that our Holy Father publicly spoke of Judas only 3 days before the timely demise of Cardinal Martini.

VATICAN CITY, August 28, 2012 - In his Angelus address Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI SPOKE OF JUDAS’ BETRAYAL OF CHRIST, SAYING THAT JUDAS’ PROBLEM WAS FAILING TO LEAVE CHRIST WHEN HE NO LONGER BELIEVED – A “FALSEHOOD,” SAID THE POPE, “WHICH IS A MARK OF THE DEVIL.”

“Judas,” said Pope Benedict, “could have left, as many of the disciples did; indeed, he would have left if he were honest. Instead he remained with Jesus. HE DID NOT REMAIN BECAUSE OF FAITH, OR BECAUSE OF LOVE, BUT WITH THE SECRET INTENTION OF TAKING VENGEANCE ON THE MASTER.”

… “for those Catholics who cannot bring themselves to believe the formal teachings of the Church on life and family matters it would be more honest to leave the Church rather than betraying Her.”

…“Intellectual difficulty is not disobedience.” He explained, “You might have teachings you find difficult to accept. However, (in those circumstances) it is virtuous to believe since you make a sacrifice of your own will, taking as your own the mind of the Church.”

To you, cardinals, bishops, priests, religious and lay Catholics who like Martini clamour for a futile and demonic change, LEAVE.  You will never be able to change the Magisterium and Tradition of the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.  Jesus said, [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18

[18] The gates of hell: That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured that, neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-suggests-its-best-to-be-honest-and-leave-the-church-if-you-dont-believ

IT would help readers considerably if some of the commentors to this article, including this website, if they would identify themselves from the start as closet members of the Society of St. Pius X or Opus Dei. It could save all of us a lot of time and prevent these issues from creating more division just within the Roman Catholic Church.  Be honest and truthful!

So how is it that so many of you posters judge the late Cardinal to be an unfaithful heretic when both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI always held him in high regard and never attempted to kick him out of the Curia?

Do you think those Popes were in some sort of collusion with the Cardinal?  or,

Do you think you are wiser and better informed than the Popes, therefore a better judge?

Do you think the Roman Hierarchy needs to be checking in with you before they make these decisions?

Trebert, I agree. It would likewise be helpful if one would indentify him/Herself as an anti-traditional, liberal ect… A title tells alot about the commentor. Some say we should’nt place labels, we both agree it could possibly be necessary. Trebert, I’m a Novus Ordo Traditionalist. Now tell us where you stand.

Joseph asked valid questions.  Is anyone going to answer him, regarding why popes honored Cardinal Martini, and gave him a world-wide platform in which to spread what he believed? 

He was made a “Prince of the Church” by JPII who gave him a distinction of “cardinal”, that doesn’t happen to just any cleric.  Am I correct?

It was also JPII that put into office ALL the bishops we have now, the vast majority of whom looked the other way, accommodating clergymen (priests and other bishops) that were having sex outside of marriage, with fellow Catholics of all ages: teenage boys, other men - happening even now, with homosexual priests - and with women, even fathering children by them, like Fr. Marcial Maciel (as pointed out by Celinedesilva) who it would appear, never met a person with whom he did not want to be intimate.  He has a grown daughter living in Spain, and a younger son, at last count.

There have been SEVERAL high-profile priests and Bishop Zavala, of Los Angeles, that have admitted to having fathered a child or two, by women, and to this day, are not taking responsibility for it.  Rather, they are protected, and shielded.  L of C priest, Fr. Thomas Williams is taking a “year off from public ministry”, and not only he knew he fathered a child before the year 2005, but his superior knew too, and everyone allowed him to remain a priest, and to travel the country, teaching ETHICS.

Last week, some big-name clergyman (Bishop Finn?) supposedly told his secretary, “Boys will be boys”.  That was about a cleric having been found with child pornography on his computer.  That’s their mentality. The clergy protects and coddles anyone with a Roman collar.  We got a candid summary of how they think, when Fr. Benedict G (in his own words - they were not misconstrued by the secular press) told the NC Register that everyone should go lightly on a clergyman that molests the “first time”, saying it’s teenage boys that seduce the older clergymen.

With JPII & Marcial, bottom line: it was a case of anything goes. Marical had a Roman collar.  He was ordained.  He made a lot of money and provided vocations for the Vaticn.  He was given a pass to do anything.  No one cared if it was his “first time”, or his not.  For the record, it is rare for priests to molest only once.  It is usually a pattern.

Further, it is impossible for so many people that knew Marcial well to be surprised.  If they were, then they had NO ABILITY TO DISCERN truth from error, and they ought not to have been in church leadership.

I can understand Angelo’s comment about Marcial, who wrote, “When the allegations came out about his double life, I could not, would not believe it. But it turns out the allegations were true.”

But JPII refusing to even INVESTITGATE his friend?  Credible allegations made by now retired priests that had accused Marcial of having molested them when they were seminarians was known more than 15 years ago.  JPII did nothing.  Why?  Marcial was his friend.

Disclosure: I am a convert that came to the Catholic Church PRIOR to knowing that church leadership was allowing clerical abuse to happen.  I prefer the Novos Ordo Mass because it’s the worship with which I am most familiar.  The new liturgy seems too stuffy to me, but I’m sure I’ll get used to it.  I know next to nothing about the ultra conservative Vat. 11 protesters or their leaders, and I don’t follow the ultra-modern clerics.
I just go to Mass on Sundays and keep up with the News, & read the Bible.

To answer Joseph’s question, “Do you think you are wiser and better informed than the Popes?”  - I say YES.  See my post above, for why.

About Joseph’s question regarding the Roman Hierarchy checking in with lay people, before making decisions? I say YES. 

Even Rome needs to be transparent, and accountable.  The place for lay people in the church is as a real world consultant to clergy.  We should be heard and heeded. I come from an Evangelical Christian background, and there is a good method of checks and balances, similar to that found in Acts of the Apostles, and the Council of Jerusalem.

The point where that stops is this: after we are consulted, our church heirarchy should go to God’s Word, and to the Holy Spirit, for the last word regarding direction and guidance about how to proceed. If that was their system, they would be teaching those of us in the pews how to also rely on God, and to commune with Him, being blessed with answers.

Neither lay people, nor some clergyman’s opinion is to be obeyed, placed on par with God Himself, who is still the “Head of the Church”.  Jesus has not been deposed, by anyone.  Not JPII, not Pope Benedict, not Cardinal Martini.

Until this article appeared I had absolutely no idea who Carlo Mantini was. Now that I have read about him,in various places, and how courageous he was to try and introduce change in our Church it reminded me, in the words of John XXIII, that Mantini too tried to “bring a fresh breeze into the broken/tired institutuon”. Change is the medium with which the Holy Spirit brings a conversion experience. Some comes in the form of pleasure (i.e., birth of a child)  but most of it unfortunately comes through trial and suffering.  As a cancer patient I think I have the right to say this.

As for my faith journey, I am a convert (1986) to Catholicism but have since left the institutional Church(2008) - but we have learned to carry God in our heart and soul every step of the way.  Still share God’s gifts with plenty of Catholic friends including several members of the Catholic clergy (most RC priests continue to suffer alienation even more under the present ultra conservative leadership). 

Where do I stand? If you really want know and to take the time you can read my blog ‘when http://whenreligionfails.blogspot.ca/  You can read my profile there which may help to understand my background.

Terah James, One as a Catholic must understand that the Church is not a democracy, She has what is called “Indefectability”. On matters of faith and morals the Church can never err in its teaching of God’s truth. Though the Church is indefectable, pure and spotless, its members are not impeccable. Which means the Church is Holy, even if its members are sinners. You say you are a convert, Welcome! I reccomend to you to look for some traditional catechisms that explain the truths we are to believe and follow. Some frown on the old catechisms, I don’t agree with their reasoning. These catechisms have the purity of truth as taught by Christ and Tradition through his Catholic Church, in an intact and not watered down manner. The Church has 2000 years of experience, sadly in the past 45 years men who were not holy took over the Church which caused indescribable damage to Her. As for Bl. John Paul ll and Marciel, the Holy Father knew first hand that Marciel was being investigated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed at that time by Card. Ratzinger now Benedict XVl. Bl. John Paul ll must have also been shocked. He could have stopped the investigation, but note he did not, because Justice had to prevail.

Angelo, I too, have done research regarding Marcial Maciel, etc., because when I converted, while my Evangelical family was okay with it, my mother was not.  So I watch the news constantly now, to keep up on issues.

I learned Pope JPII knew all about the allegations against Marcial Maciel.  He refused to allow his friend to be investigated.  When people were calling for JPII to be declared a saint, and “blessed”, numerous people brought up that JPII ignored the pleas to investigate Macial.  They were ignored.

It was Pope Benedict that insisted on investigating, when JPII was frail, towards the end of his life.  If JPII had found the Fountain of Youth, given Longetivity Pills, Marcial may never have been shown to be what he was: a molester.  JPII protected him from being made known for what he was.  Please, do not try to rewrite history.  There are enough people doing that, and I have to battle my mother over that, to this day.

@Terah James & @Trebert

To be clear, I tend to share your views.  I just think it’s hypocritical to see so many “Trads” insist that we must listen to the Magisterium as the absolute conveyers of Truth - that is until they don’t agree with the Magisterium.  You can’t have it both ways!

Terah James, How is it possible for Bl. John Paul ll to refuse to allow the invesitigation of Maciel. Someone else is rewriting the history. In the US a person is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but in reality in the US a person is guilty until proven innocent. Not so with the Church. A person is innocent until the evidence proves him guilty beyond a doubt. It is my understanding that before Bl. John Paul ll died the investigation was complete. You speak of the frailty of the Holy Father and that others complained that he did not allow the investigation. Before Rome announced the conclusion just about no one knew about the allegations against Maciel, it was not known to the public until after the death of Bl. John Paul ll.  Are you or someone else doing wishful guess work for history. The investegation could not have proceeded without the knowledge and approval of the Pope. Thats how the Magisterium of each Pope works. At this very moment many are under investigation, but we will not know they’re outcome until Rome announces it, thats if it even announces it. You see there are some things that are not any of our business. The complete report of Maciel, as is the custom is now in the Vatican archives. They cannot reveal its contents until 50 years after the last witness has died. So then upon the death of the Pope, people calling out “Santo Subito” and at the same time people complaning about the Pope refusing to allow the investigation when few even knew there was an investigation, and the public had zero knowledge of it. Makes the information you learned a total lie.

Joseph, The Traditionalist are being led by the Holy Ghost. It is no secret that Vatican Council ll was greviously misinterpred by liberals. Such that the Church in the past 45 years does not even resemble Vatican ll. Many, and I mean an enormous amount of people did many things in the name of the Council, that had nothing to do with the Council. Traditionalists are now discovering that the Council was misinterpreted by the liberals and thats why they were against it. They are now calling many individuals in the Church to accept the Council and to implement it. The Trads have been ordered to accept V2, now the Trads are ordering them! to accept the true Vatican ll. Thank God this is happening. The Trads are now calling on those so called great champions of the Council to reform and accept what the Council truly teaches.

Trebert, When Bl. John XXlll called for the windows of the Church to be opened to let the fresh air in. He was talking about the fresh air of Heaven, and not the stagnant errors of the world. The true Reforms called for by the Council were in fact a call on all Catholics to reform their lives and be better Christians, as holiness had taken a huge plunge. Pope Benedict XVl said, “I was at all the Council sessions as a Periti for my Bishop. What was said at the Council and what was done after the Council are two totaly different things.”. The reform of the reforms was called for by Bl. John Paul ll, Benedict XVl is continueing the reform of the reforms. He is restoring all that was falsley changed in the Church. Goodbye errors of the modernists and good riddens!

@Angelo,

OK, I hear this all the time that the council has been misinterpreted.  I would like you to give a specific example of something V2 ordered, but has been misinterpreted.

The New Springtime of the Church is finally at hand. New changes are being introduced, and almost all of them are eradicating the false changes and restoring the Catholic Church back to its holiness. The newest is the putting into practice by the Pope himself in an Papal official manner the revival of Latin, the official language of the Church. The Pope about 2 years ago gave the people of God the prayers that every Catholic must learn in Latin. Many are trying to block this, but Christ will prevail!

Joseph, Pope Benedict XVl said, “What happened at the Council and what happened after the Council are two totaly different things. I was at every Council session as a young priest as a Periti for my Bishop. Take the Communion Rail, at the Council it was never even as much as mentioned, after the Council priests throughout the world began to remove them in the name of the Council.” He has also spoken of a host of other things such as that the Altar was never supposed to be turned around, it started out as just another fad. He said the Altars will be turned back around gradually. He has given Papal order that no Bishop may stop a priest from saying Mass properly, that is both peopel and priest facing the same direction (Ad Orientem). Just last week it was reported by Rome that Pope Benedict XVl has officialy set up a commission for reviving Latin in the Church. He has ordered all banal music to end immediatly. Has prohibited the use of certain musical instruments (drums, guitars ect…) for the Holy Mass. There are many more things that cover every aspect of the Church.

Joseph, Now there is Cardinal Burke who spoke recently and is calling for the restoration of the Prayers at the foot at the Altar and restoring the secret prayers of the priest. On you tube you will find talks given by Cardinal Arinze concerning changes in the Church and undoing them and restoring the Traditional practices of the Church. Also the Pope said that if the new Mass were to be said properly one would not be able to distinguish between the Old Mass and the New Mass. On you tube look up “Novus Ordo Mass in Latin part 1” one will see Mass as Pope Paul Vl intended. Rome has become very critical of all the unapproved changes in the Church caused by liberals. Rome one by one very swiftly is undoing them. Also the Pope speaking on the Old Mass said that in order to see it restored to its proper place, we need a whole New generation of Bishops. He himself is choosing only priests who have no problem with the Old Mass to be Bishops. There is so much of the Church after 50 years that is being restored. We will not hear about it from our priests in their sermons so one has to clik into the web and see daily the words and actions of the Holy Father and his close collaborators.

Joseph, Also the Second Vatican Council being aware of the beggining of the fall of religious orders, called on Religious Orders to reform and return to the Spirit of their Founders. Nuns did the opposite and made a complete break with their founders. The Council gave permission under certain circumstances for allowing Communion standing, making it clear that the Norm remains receiving communion kneeling. The Council Fathers allowed for the possibility of some vernacular in the Mass. Both Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Cardinal Montini later Paul Vl championed this. Montini said these words at the Council, “Brother Bishops in this we must proceed with great caution and prudence.”. One Council Father jokingly said at the Council, “Brother Bishops at the rate were going were going to end up with the whole Mass in the vernacular.” All the Bishops roared with laughter, it was only a joke. By what I’ve posted suffices to show that the Council was completely misinterpreted by those who did things in the name of the Council without paying any attention to what the Council actually said. All this caused Pope Paul Vl to say those now famous words, “I detect the smoke of satan has entered into the very house of God.” Perhaps this will also give an idea where Traditionalists are coming from. It is now the Trads calling on Church officials to accept the whole of the Second Vatican Council. They accept the Council but only as Benedict XVl said, “In Tradition.” So it is a lie that Trads completely reject the Council, what they reject are its devastating misinterpretations.

This is wrong Angelo.  Nuns were already following the Rule and Constitution of their founders until Vatican II. They wore their habits and strictly kept their papal enclosures in cloistered monasteries.  Now they are semi-cloistered.

•Priests/nuns took off their religious habits and clerical collars. Soon they started behaving like lay men and women/social workers.

The greatest offence committed AFTER Vatican II was against the MOST HOLY EUCHARIST – TRUE PRESENCE OF OUR BLESSED:  SOURCE AND SUMMIT OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH.

•  In most churches, the tabernacle was ripped from the sanctuary and shoved into walls and side chapels.

•  Churches were desecrated and modern box style monstrosities were built.

•  Desecration of the Most Holy Eucharist takes place on a daily basis.  I have witnessed this.

•  Loss of priestly vocations with women prancing around the altar, distributing Holy Communion and people callously receiving Communion in the hand.

•  Even today, despite the Moto Proprio of 2011, Bishops harass priests who want to offer the most Holy Tridentine Mass.

•  God is taking care of this one because the young people starting in their teens want this Most beautiful Tridentine Holy Mass that produced thousands of saints through the centuries.

•  Clown masses, community masses where the congregation gather to socialize ignoring God’s presence in the Church and distracting thus who com in to pray.

•  The faithful falling away from the Sacraments…no catechesis…,poor catechesis…and heretical teaching…

•  Open disobedience to the Holy Father by Cardinals, Bishops, priests and religious.  E.g. Almost all Canadian and US Bishops openly rejected “Humane Vitae”  of Pope Paul VI who predicted the sins of today.  These heretical bishops and priests now tell the faithful to follow their malformed consciences…

•  This disobedience is seen even today.

•  Priests and religious stopped praying the Divine Office.  Most stopped praying period.  They tell their congregations that prayer is useless.  Work is all that matters. “SOCIAL JUSTICE”

•  A false Gospel was preached by priests:  “that there is no hell.  We fly up to God’s lap because he is so merciful regardless of what we do.”

•  “DO NOT JUDGE…ALL RELIGIONS ARE SAME…ALL PATHS LAD TO GOD…” This is what came out of Vatican II.

•  Casual and most immodest and disrespectful dressing to church especially at weddings.

•  Dismantling of the pipe organ the instrument used by the Church for centuries and replaced with guitars/drums/keyboards

•  Profane rock/pop and secular they call Christian music resulting in demonic mass hysteria especially among the young…

The list goes on and on and on….

Our HOLY FATHER IS TRYING TO CORRECT ALL THIS. LET’S OBEY HIM.  LET’S ASK GOD TO FORGIVE US ALL AND HELP US TO FOLLOW HIM FAITHFULLY AS THE SAINTS OF TRADITION OF THE CATHOLIC DID.

Please forgive the spelling and gramatical errors.  thanks

Celinedesilva, About 35 years ago a priest told me that problems began with Nuns before Vatican ll. He told me of Pope Pius Xll in the 1940’s having to order Nuns to re-lenghten their habits, as they were already modifying them. Dr. Alice Von Hilderbrand the wife of Dietrich Von Hilderbrand great friends of the Popes said that the loss of faith did not begin after V2. She said it began long before the Council. St. Pius X condemned Modernism as the “mother of all heresies”. That does’nt mean that the heresy came to a screeching halt. It got worse. At Vatican ll many of the Council Fathers were in fact Modernists despite their Oath against it. But their will did not prevail at the Holy Ghost protected Council. When the Council ended all modernist gehenna broke loose. Errors so infiltrated the Church that Bl. John Paul ll called for the reform of the reforms. Pope Benedict XVl is continueing those reforms. The errors you point out are the very ones that have been reformed. But most continue to defy the Holy Father. The fault is not that of the Council which was in line with Tradition. This whole mess was condemned from St. Pius X to Pope Benedict XVl. Ven. Pius Xll in the 40’s said, “The greatet sin of today is the loss of the sense of sin.”.

Following Vatican II, it was Pope John Paul II who set up prayer rooms inside the Vatican.  He allowed idols to be placed upon the Tabernacles and Altars on which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was offered.  All this in the name of Ecumenism a great outcome of Vatican II. 

Read what Saints: Francis of Assisi, John Damascus had to say about Islam.

The grace of faith opens the “eyes of the hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery.

“The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.” God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church

FURTHER FRUITS OF VATICAN II:  Defying the Teaching of the Apostles and his predecessors through the ages, to add insult to injury, Pope John Paul II inserted into the Catechism of the Catholic Church that “with Muslims we worship the one same God.”

THIS IS A LIE.  CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS DO NOT WORSHIP OR BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD.

Peter 2:1 the First Pope instructs us “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

[1 John 4:2-3] By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: [3] And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

MUSLIMS DENY THE BLESSED TRINITY: Koran; 4:171-172 “.....Say not “Trinity”: desist…..”

MUSLIMS DENY THE DIVINITY OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST: HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.

‘Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, and he was protected’ Islam’s Noble Quran’s 13:38,

MUSLIMS DENY EVERY ARTICLE OF THE CATHOLIC CREED.

For Catholics Paradise is: Isaias 64:4 From the beginning of the world they have not heard, nor perceived with the ears: the eye hath not seen, O God, besides thee, what things thou hast prepared for them that wait for thee.

Mirrored in the new Testament is St. Paul 1 Corinthians 2:9
But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

IN ISLAM, ALLAH PROMISES:  a sexual, sensuous and demonic afterlife: “God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness.

‘For those who keep from evil, with their Lord are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pure ‘azwaj’ and contentment from Allah.’ (Koran3:15).

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/worship.htm

Indeed the smoke of satan is inside the Vatican.
Having read Cardinal Martini’s vitriolic last testament against the Catholic Church, he probably is enjoying the Islamic paradise he lived to promote. 

True Ecumenism is to follow the teaching of our Lord:

Mark 16:[14] At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. [15] And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned

I read these posts and all I can think is that it must be very depressing for you to be a Catholic.  I find it to be joyous in every respect!

THROUGH THE MERCY OF GOD I HAVE BEEN WELL EDUCATED IN MY CATHOLIC FAITH THANKS TO MY PATENTS AND PRE-VATICAN CATHOLIC NUNS WHO DID NOT CHANGE AND ALSO TAUGHT THEOLOGY.

TO CONFRONT HERASY AND TO UPHOLD AND DEFEND ONE’S FAITH; ONE MUST FIRST KNOW THE GIFT OF THIS FAITH. 

I HAVE ALSO STUDIED HINDUISM, BUDDHISM AND SIKHISM.
 
HOWEVER, SEEING THE URGENT NEED, I HAVE EXTENSIVELY STUDIED ISLAM AND SHARIA LAW.
TO CONFRONT, REFUTE AND CRUSH FALSHOOD, ONE MUST FIRST KNOW WHAT THE FALSHOOD IS.

KNOW THYSELF KNOW THY ENEMY

Andrw,

Our Catholic Faith is a pearl of great price.  “Depressing” is not a word in the Catholic dictionary. To be depressed is to lose hope.
Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing; that you may abound in hope, and in the power of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ is our God and our Joy.  His word is our Hope.  Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

My joy in being a Catholic comes when I serve the needy.  It comes when I can comfort or be comforted by my community.  It comes when I see how our Church educates and heals in remote parts of the world where no one else will go.  I rejoice that we are the great champions of the Gospel call to seeking justice for all, I rejoice when I take part in the Eucharist along with my community.

I could not care less if there is some stupid rail, or if a priest mixes up his prayer, or how people dress, or where the tabernacle is placed, or what the organ looks like, or 1 Pope says this way or another says it another way, or blah, blah, blah.  And neither did/does Jesus.

Andrew, I am a Novus Ordo Traditionalist Catholic, I too found the pearl of a great price. What saddens me is that many do not know the beauty of the Catholic Church. All due to error, heresy, schism, modernism ect… The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, the jewels that adorn her are the great treasures of the Church. Which are the Sacraments, her perfect understanding of God and his will, sacramentals, great books that bring about freedom, the Papacy, Our Lady, Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament ect… And the greatest treasure is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is a Divine Act and not a human act. The only depressing thing is that many have been deprived of her beauty. This is what we Traditionalist are battling to retore.

Joseph - “
“My joy in being a Catholic comes when
I serve…
I can comfort…
I see…
I rejoice that…
I rejoice when …
I take…
I could not care less… stupid rail, priest mixes up his prayer…how people dress…where the tabernacle is placed….or 1 Pope says…blah, blah, blah. And neither did/does Jesus.”

Joseph, A pretty bold statement you have made.
YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE A CATHOLIC TO SERVE THE NEEDY. 
Any pagan can do that and they do.

You are indeed the poster child and glaring example of the fruit of Vatican II.
I have met many horizontal looking people including Judas priests and bishops with similar views as yours, who call themselves “social justice” Catholics.
Just like you they proclaim to be holier than Jesus Christ Himself. 

You have also shown your disdain and contempt for those who value the Catholic, Apostolic Tradition and Magisterium of over 2,000 years.

You claim to have known and to know the mind of God.
You are saying, “Jesus did not care/does not care” because “I could care less” 
Your comment smacks of self centered pride and an ignorance of the Catholic Faith which reeks with the smoke of satan. 

Your comment also proves that you have no clue as to what the Sacred Liturgy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or the Holy Eucharist IS. 

Reading your comment sadly convinces me even more, that Vatican II was a ruse to scatter the flock of Jesus Christ.  It was also the catalyst that will separated the wheat from the chaff. 

[22] For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets, and they shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce (if it were possible) even the elect. [Mark 13:22] Take you heed therefore; behold I have foretold you all things

I guess the gifts of comprehension, understanding and discernment is only granted to those who in profound humility knowing their nothingness without God, seek Him in spirit and truth.

Angelo, wrote: “On matters of faith and morals the Church can never err in its teaching of God’s truth.” But in the same post, also writes,
“Some frown on the old catechisms, I don’t agree with their reasoning. These catechisms have the purity of truth as taught by Christ and Tradition through his Catholic Church..”  Sounds to me on faith & morals, there ARE varying teachings, depending on which version one reads.

If the Church cannot err, & catechisms are meant to teach faith & morals to the faithful all approved of by bishops with imprimaturs, how can catechims differ?  Also, how can Vatican II, a major universal church gathering of leaders, be wrong about anything?  Everyone that was anyone in the church went to Vatican II.

Joseph asked what specifically came from Vatican II that is considered by traditionalists to be in error.  That’s a valid question.  Who will answer him?  I know next to nothing about Vatican II.  If Vatican II is indeed wrong, then what about Vatican I?  What about the Council of Trent? Just because they are older councils does not mean they couldn’t be as in err as Vatican II is, IF the traditonalists are correct about what they claim.

@Celinedesilva - your post to Joseph saddens me.  I believe you owe him an apology.  Joseph made excellent contributions to the conversation in this blog.  While I agree with you that pagans serve the needy too, most of what you wrote is an attack on Joseph, personally, showing none of the charity that Born Again Christians are called upon to have.  The Fruit of the Holy Spirit being: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and SELF-CONTROL.  Please will you consider re-reading his posts, with charity in your heart, then responsing again?  I have enjoyed reading what you wrote too, prior to that last comment. Thank you.

Angelo, “The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ… her perfect understanding of God”

Dear Angelo,

I feel heartened and in good company reading your comments.  At least we are on the same page. I see that you too have a tremendous love for our Holy Mother Church.

The Church, The Mystical Body of Christ is also a Mystery, this is why She is called the “Mystical Body of Christ”.

In charity and humility may I point out that our Trinitarian God is a Mystery. Jesus the Only Begotten Son of the Father is a Mystery. No one will “PERFECTLY understand or God”. 

One of the attributes of God is that He is Infinite.  We, His creation are finite.  If we knew and understood our God perfectly we would be as God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God

1 Corinthians 2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory.

Luke 10:22]All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

God bless

@Celinedesilva - we are called upon to love everyone, even our enemies.  Jesus raised the bar for Christians.

St. Paul wrote that he would rather be separated from God himself, forever, if only his fellow Jews would come to belief in Jesus Christ, as their Lord and their promised Messiah.

That’s love.  To want the best for those that are not now in the Church, for their own sake, to the glory of God, at our own personal sacrifice, and out of our love for Jesus, the Christ.

Terah James.  Thank you.  You would make a great inquisitor.

I am sorry my comment to Joseph saddens you.  Joseph’s comment was even sadder and disturbing.

Charity and Truth cannot be separated.
 
I commented on what Joseph wrote on this post in charity.  What I said is the truth.  I cannot take away anything.  It was not a personal attack but an answer to his disrespectful, I don’t care … to hell with you comment, especially regarding Holy Mass and the Holy Eucharist.
 
There is nothing to apologize for when the Truth is told.  I ask God to enlighten and have mercy on Joseph as I ask God for His mercy on myself.

The sickness of our age is a false, misguided and misplaced charity that denies or ignores the Truth. That defies and disobeys the Magisterium of the Church in the name of a pagan charity that is all inclusive even though sinful.

One of the spiritual works of mercy is to instruct the ignorant.

When Jesus spoke the Truth [54]...said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
[John 6:54] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?t day.
67] After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

Jesus never apologized or called them back.

@Celinedesilva

“Your comment also proves that you have no clue as to what the Sacred Liturgy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or the Holy Eucharist IS.”

I am quite well acquainted with the Sacrifice of the Mass, being a daily Communicant for over 30 years and also seminarian for 3 years prior to finding my vocation as a husband and a father.

You believe in the man-invented trappings of the Mass and the magisterium.  I happen to believe in the mystery of the Eucharist and the Gospel in action.  I don’t care about the rail or which way the Priest stands, etc., (if a church has a rail, fine - if the priest faces away from the congregation, fine) specifically because my passion for the Eucharist transcends those earthly items (not to mention the Bible never mentioned any of those).

I would tell you that your self-righteousness and pride saddens me, but I don’t have room in my heart to be sad for you when there is so much joy to be had in God’s great creation!

Good luck to you….

Terah James, When it comes to the Catechism, the Church in previous times was very strict that they should contain no errors that contradict the official teachings of Christ’s Church. The Nihil Obstat, Censor librorum, Imprimatur ect… were given as an assurance that the catechism or Catholic book had been vigorously looked at by Church officials and found to contain no errors against the Faith. In the last 45 years catechisms were written that contained many errors, Church officials became slothful, careless, unfaithful, negligent ect in their duties. So we got a whole bunch of catechisms filled with error, misleading the people of God. That is why I recommend the Old Cathechisms. As for Vatican ll there are two ways of looking at the Council today, In light of Tradition and a whatever, who cares attitude. The latter is what we Traditionalists are battling against, our sole intentions are love for the Church and the salvation of souls. When many Traditionalists speaks out against the Council, what they in fact are speaking out against are errors. As for Joseph, he is what the Church refers to as a Lukewarm Catholic. And as God does, we too spit him out.

Celinedesilva, It gladdens me that you consider you and I on the same page. Thank you. When it comes to what I commented about the Church, “her perfect understanding of God” you are correct that we will never perfectly understand God. What I meant to say was that the Church has a perfect understanding of all that is necessary for our salvation. She alone has all the answers about God that we seek for our salvation. She alone is the perfect guide for humanity for salvation, that is why Christ instituted the Holy Catholic Church.

Posted by Joseph on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2012 7:32 PM (EST):
“I am quite well acquainted with the Sacrifice of the Mass, being a daily Communicant for over 30 years and also seminarian for 3 years prior to finding my vocation as a husband and a father.

Joseph,
I can see where your bitterness is coming from.  From your disparaging comments, I gather you probably hoped for the married priesthood.
God spared His Church from yet another bad priest. Deo Gratias.

“…, being a daily Communicant for over 30 years and also seminarian for 3 years”,

Has not done you any good.  Your ego seems to have increased significantly. Your earlier comment mentions: I, MY, WE, almost ten times.  Yet St. Paul says: ‘He must increase…I must decrease.”

Joseph: “…specifically because my passion for the Eucharist transcends those earthly items “

First, we are earthly creatures with an immortal soul.  That’s why in time, The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, The Son of God condescend and dwelt among us.

Joseph: “…You believe in the man-invented trappings of the Mass and the magisterium …I don’t care….which way the Priest faces away …not to mention the Bible never mentioned any of those).”

God used “earthly items”, things, places, bread, wine, fish, fruit, grain… Jesus was meticulous.  “The master saith, Where is my refectory, where I may eat the Pasch with my disciples?...a large dining room furnished; and there prepare ye for us.” [Mark 14:15]

EARLIER, JESUS SPOKE OF THE “WEDDING GARMENT TO BE WORN FOR THE FEAST”. Jesus “cared” about the FORMAL PROCEDURE, “TRAPPINGS” IN SETTING AN EXAMPLE FOR THE FUTURE.

He asked His disciples, “TO PREPARE THE UPPER ROOM”  where He gave us the Greatest Gift of Himself when HE INSTITUTED THE PRIESTHOOD AND THE HOLY EUCHARIST. (Not the roadside or the river bank with the sick and poor)  They were invited later and had a choice to accept or reject that invitation.

Joseph, You did not learn too much in your 3 years in the seminary.  You were probably learning the Anti-Catholic new liberation theology of “social Justice” and Catholic bashing.

For your education and meditation: The Bible does say:

Exodus 25:6] 6] Oil to make lights: spices for ointment, and for SWEET SMELLING INCENSE: [7] ONYX STONES, AND PRECIOUS STONES TO ADORN…[8] AND THEY SHALL MAKE ME A SANCTUARY, AND I WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF THEM

[[Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 8:16] - …ALTAR, …were…twenty men having their backs towards the temple of the Lord, and THEIR FACES TO THE EAST: AND THEY ADORED TOWARDS THE RISING OF THE SUN

Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 43:26] …THE ALTAR, AND SHALL CLEANSE IT: AND THEY SHALL CONSECRATE IT. …thenceforward, THE PRIESTS SHALL OFFER YOUR HOLOCAUSTS UPON THE ALTAR…SAITH THE LORD GOD.

Psalms 109:4]…before the day star I begot thee. [4] The Lord hath sworn…THOU ART A PRIEST FOR EVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDECH.

Leviticus 21:10] The high priest, that is to say, THE PRIEST, IS THE GREATEST AMONG HIS BRETHREN. UPON WHOSE HEAD THE OIL OF UNCTION HATH BEEN POURED, AND WHOSE HANDS HAVE BEEN CONSECRATED FOR THE PRIESTHOOD, AND WHO HATH BEEN VESTED WITH THE HOLY VESTMENTS…

[Ecclesiasticus 45:20[20] He chose him out of all men living, to offer sacrifice to God, incense, and a good savour, for a memorial to make reconciliation for his people

Joseph: “You believe in the man-invented…magisterium…(not to mention the Bible never mentioned any of those).”

Joseph,
JESUS DID NOT LEAVE US A BOOK.  HE LEFT US A CHURCH.
THE CHURCH GAVE US THE BOOK.  HERE IS THE PROOF:

Matthew 16:18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [[19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 28:16…Jesus had appointed them… spoke to them, saying:…[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [ [Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Matthew 10:14 [12] And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. [13] And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. [14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.

St. Paul tells us: 2 Thessalonians 2:14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle

And again, 2 Thessalonians 3:6] 6] And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. [14] And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed: [15] Yet do not esteem him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

[16] Now the Lord of peace himself give you everlasting peace in every place. The Lord be with you all. [17] The salutation of Paul with my own hand; which is the sign in every epistle. So I write. [18] The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Joseph: “I would tell you that your self-righteousness and pride…”
This is not the first time I have been “judged”  and accused of this. 

I count this as nothing when I see How our Holy Mother the Church and Jesus Christ Himself is scoffed at and mocked by His own in our Post Conciliar Vatican II age. 
Just look at Martini’s last testament to the Catholic church..

@Celinedesilva

Go in peace

Joseph: Jesus must be smiling & angels rejoicing, over your one sentence!
You did your best.  Like the wind that blows, where it will.

Terah James on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2012 5:27 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva ‘–your post to Joseph…showing none of the charity that Born Again Christians are called upon to have. ‘

ALL CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIAN.  NOT ALL CHRISTIAND ARE CATHOLIC.

Terah James,
This is not personal.  What you said is also a trend I find on many Catholic blogs, I am addressing it here.

I am not a Born Again Christian or an Evangelical Christian or member of one of the 38,000 Christian denominations and cults formed a little over 500 years ago.

I am a Roman Catholic with a 2,000 year history and an unchanging Tradition and Magisterium of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Biblical References are provided in my previous comments on this post.
I am a daughter of this Church and through the mercy of God have received the Sacrament of Baptism, when I was born again in Christ making me a child of God in the bosom of our Holy Mother Church, the Mystical Body of Christ.
As with every Catholic, this Baptismal Grace was perfected with the Gifts of The Holy Spirit when I received the Sacrament of Confirmation.

To those Bible thumping, selectively picking and choosing, new age, breed of Catholics, Mother Church is the only Authority that has the command of Jesus Christ, Himself to interpret the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible is it written of: “Jesus smiling” or God smiling or “angels rejoicing, over your one sentence!”

However, It is written Luke 15:10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

DID OUR LORD AND GOD, JESUS CHRIST, WHO DIED AND ROSE AGAIN FOR LOVE OF US, HAVE CHARITY IN HIS SACRED HEART WHEN HE EXPOUNDED HIS PARABLE TO HIS DISCIPLES?

Matthew 13:36-42 … his disciples came to him, saying: Expound to us the parable of the cockle of the field. [37] Who made answer and said to them: He that soweth the good seed, is the Son of man. [38] And the field, is the world. And the good seed are the children of the kingdom. And the cockle, are the children of the wicked one. [39] And the enemy that sowed them, is the devil. But the harvest is the end of the world. And the reapers are the angels. [40] Even as cockle therefore is gathered up, and burnt with fire: so shall it be at the end of the world.
[41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. [42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is what misled, so called modern Catholics deny and refuse to believe.  Not every one goes to heaven.

Hence the urgency to sacrifice and pray in union with our Holy Mother the Church for all souls reedeemed by the Blood of Christ.

@ Celinedesilva you wrote, “I am not a Born Again Christian”.
*Please rethink this.* Jesus, Himself, said to Nicodemus, “Unless you are born again” you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  He said, “No one comes to the Father, but by me.” = He didn’t say, “By the Church.”

@You wrote, “I am a daughter of this Church”
But Christians are children (daughters and sons) of God the Father, we not *daughters or sons* of the Church.  Christians ARE the Church.  The Church has no sons or daughters.  Only God the Father has children (by adoption and via Jesus.)

@You wrote, “through the mercy of God I have received the Sacrament of Baptism, when I was born again in Christ making me a child of God in the bosom of our Holy Mother Church, the Mystical Body of Christ…”
There is no “bosom of our Holy Mother Church”.  Why do Catholics insist on making everything so feminine?  One would think men would feel very uncomfortable with that.  The Mystical Body of Christ has no mother.  The Mystical Body of Christ has a HEAD, Jesus, our Groom.  A note: Jesus is not a personal Groom to any one person.  No one is “married” to Jesus. But Jesus is the Bridegroom to His Bride, the Church.  We are to keep our collective (and personal) selves pure for Him, ready for His coming again.

@You wrote, “As with every Catholic, this Baptismal Grace was perfected with the Gifts of The Holy Spirit when I received the Sacrament of Confirmation.”
God’s grace is God’s grace, which is unmerited favor on us, from Him. It is always perfect.

We can be filled more and more with the Holy Spirit. We can continually receive sanctifying Grace - like when we are in a trying time, and through patience, persistence and prayer, we turn to Him, & He gets us through an ordeal, making us more like Jesus’ behavior (remember Joseph when he was sold into slavery by his brothers, and King David, when he was running for his life from King Saul? Both acted like Jesus would act, and God gave each grace to get them through the ordeal, making them grow in character = sanctifying grace.  The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are so that we can be equipped to use them to build up the Body of Christ - fellow believers of all denominations.  Whomever is not against Jesus is for Him, when they speak and live in His Name. And while I agree that not all people are saved, God wants everyone to BE saved - and we are to be salt and light in a fallen world, to draw people to Jesus.

About Bible-thumping Catholics: I am one of them.  Please pray for me that I don’t hit people over the head with my Scriptures, and that I’ll use them wisely.  God’s word does not return to Him void.  But when I am delivering the Word, I want to be sure I, myself, am standing BEHIND Him, and not getting in the way.

After last night, when Caroline Kennedy got before the DNC and spoke for such an immoral platform, identifying herself as a Catholic woman, I think we all need to be equipped to show women (and men) like her where they are wrong, but in a winsome manner, to get their attention.  Even the Nuns on the Bus lady was way off track.

I think even our bishops need to turn to the Bible, and learn from the source because our country is at a crossroads, and digging our Catholic heels in the ground, excluding others of like mind (Evangelical Christians)will hinder our cause and dishonor God.

Jesus prayed for unity in His church - and not unity under Rome, or any one person, but unity under HIM.  We are given Gifts of the Holy Spirit to build up the Body, not to tear it down and shred it to pieces.

Even when the soul believes it has been freed from her erroneous grip, Protestantism dies hard if ever; in our post Vatican II Conciliar age of relativism.

If authentic and undiluted Catholic Doctrine and Tradition is not taught to those coming into the Catholic Church, sadly, neophytes will never speak or understand the language of souls, born, nurtured and nourished in the heart of Mother Church which was instituted by Christ Himself.

As a spiritual child of St. Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church, I am proud to say, I am a daughter of the Church.  I beg God to draw me and all souls deeper into her bosom where the Church Militant and the Church Suffering will finally be united to the Church Triumphant, to adore and praise our Triune God forever.

Terah James, Do you consider the Sacraments as not so important. If you do, it is called heresy. It is through the Sacraments instituted by Christ that is the font of life, the living water. To underscore their importance is a grave error. Baptism is in fact the Sacrament of rebirth. The Sacrament of Confirmation is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. You speak highly of Scipture and rightly so. But the heresy of “sola scriptura” has always been condemned by the Church. In Catholicism we have Scripture, Tradition and the successor of St. Peter to guide us. It seems you did not become Catholic, you speak as if you brought protestanism to the Catholic Church. Leave the protestant errors outside, don’t try to force their errors on other Catholics. In the Church we have the deposit of faith in which we must be faithful to, the Church is not a free for all believe what you want Church. Please understand this!

Posted by Angelo on Saturday, Sep 8, 2012 7:40 AM (EST):

“Terah James,  Leave the protestant errors outside, don’t try to force their errors on other Catholics. In the Church we have the deposit of faith in which we must be faithful to, the Church is not a free for all believe what you want Church.”

God bless you Angelo.  From the mouth of the Holy Spirit HIMSELF.

DEO GRATIAS! AMEN.

@Angelo, @Celinedesilva

I know who you are.  You are the ones that make your pastor cringe when he sees you coming.  He knows he’s in for a diatribe about how the people are dressed that day, he knows he’s gong to be quizzed on which EWTN programs he watched, you make a point of not singing any hymn that you decide isn’t liturgically correct, you complain that there is too much music at Mass, you can tell which Mass takes exactly how many minutes with whichever priest, or, “did you see that mother feeding her baby during your homily?”, or “Father, you really shouldn’t have girls serving on the altar - that’s where we get our future priests,” or “Father, when are you going to lecture these families who are coming in late and making a ruckus with their baby carriers and toys and dangling keys, or “Father, you should be telling people not to vote for Obama,” etc., etc., etc.

And you faithfully deposit your envelope with $2 while never failing to look around to see who isn’t putting anything in the basket so you can look down your nose and judge them as being less holy than you.

Your poor pastors….

Posted by Andrew on Saturday, Sep 8, 2012 10:40 AM (EST):
@Angelo, @Celinedesilva
I know who you are. You are the ones that make your pastor cringe when he sees you coming. …etc., etc., etc.

Andrew,

You are dead wrong.  My family and I are the ones who encouraged, supported and continue to support our young holy parish priest in a parish of over 4,000 families.

We have all day Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament every Wednesday, all day Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament every First Friday culminating with Holy Hour and Solemn Benediction as we did yesterday.  We now have Gregorian Chant at one of the Sunday Holy Masses in my Parish and also in another Parish in the City.

Our pastor brought our Lord out of the wall into the Tabernacle on the altar in the Chapel and will be doing the same in the Main Church in a few weeks.

Our young pastor has brought back the 6 candlesticks onto the altar, incense and Vestments worthy of the House of God.

Our very young pastor also have started offering up the Tridentine Mass on a weekly basis. And is the Celebrant for some of the Solemn High masses on major Feasts.  No guitar playing in my church.
 

Young people have joined our Gregorian Choirs.  I teach RCIA and Confirmation classes in my parish.  My pastor welcomes us and as we do, and looks forward to meeting with us on a regular basis.  My pastor is in his early 30’s.

My Pastor is not afraid to preach the unadulterated Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ as directed by the Tradition and Magisterium of the Catholic Church.  My pastor is a faithful and obedient son of the Holy Father.

I am certain that he would certainly cringe to meet you but would set you straight in his own priestly way.

  I have noticed many young priests being formed properly and following in this trend.  May God give every parish, Pastors like the holy Pastor He gave us. 

@Celinedesilva

“I am certain that he would certainly cringe to meet you but would set you straight in his own priestly way.”

Yes, you are right, that is most likely how your immature, clerical youngster would approach me.  In which case, I would generously hear him out, and then just as generously invite him to kiss my (fill in the blank).

And if these pompous young Trads manage to survive in the priesthood for 10-15 years, one of two things will happen.  First is he will have backed off his hard-line attitude and come to realize that the Church is about the laity, not the clerics.  Or secondly, he will find himself presiding MUCH smaller congregation (which I know is what you prefer).

Posted by Andrew on Saturday, Sep 8, 2012 1:11 PM (EST):
“… invite him to kiss my (fill in the blank).And if these pompous young Trads manage to survive in the priesthood for 10…Church is about the laity, not the clerics

Again you are not only wrong but have revealed yourself as an imposter.
The Priest I speak about is already a priest for over ten years.

The Catholic Church is not about the laity.

The Catholic Church IS ABOUT THE HOLY EUCHARIST, THE SOURCE ANF SUMMIT OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH.

NO PRIEST = NO HOLY MASS = NO HOLY EUCHARIST = NO SACRAMENTS.

Through his Sacramental ordination, it is the Priest “Alter Christus” who dispenses the Sacraments together with his calling to teach and preach to the faithful.

We the faithful will be lost without holy priests.

This is why fools and evil forces such as yourself, start at attacking with the hope of destroying the priesthood and the Liturgy.

You will never succeed.

I am sure you will be joining martini and the likes of him some day in the not too distant future. You are an imposter pretending to be Catholic.  A Catholic, no matter how bad will never say what you just said. 

Andrew, I make alot of priests cringe. And it makes me consider myself triumphant for Christ. When I make a priest cringe it is because my defense of the Church knaws his conscience. The way you paint us is totaly wrong, liberals have painted us that way. If you only understood where we are coming from and that we have no intention of dissapearing any time soon. An example that your wrong, is that I am not concerned with those who arrive late for Mass or leave early. As I wear ear plugs for Mass in order to worship God without all the distracting noise, when a Mass I know is going to be one of those happy clappy Mass’s I make it a point to arrive at the Credo, I read the readings of the day at home. Also in order to worship Christ within me in Holy Communion I leave right after Communion in order to entertain the Divine Guest in my Soul. Don’t presume to know us, but we Traditionalists know the minds of the liberals.

@Celinedesilva

“My pastor is in his early 30’s.”

“The Priest I speak about is already a priest for over ten years.”

Soooooo…..which part of that are you making up?

@Angelo

Thank you for writing that you make priests cringe, I appreciate your honesty.  But you simply haven’t gone to Mass if you skip the Introductory, Word, and Concluding Rites.  That’s not up for debate no matter how you try to justify it.  And you wear ear plugs at other times.  I do know you, and you are what is referred to as a fallen-away Catholic

Angelo wrote, “In Catholicism we have Scripture, Tradition and the successor of St. Peter to guide us.”

My question = what happens when successors of St. Peter differ, like Pope Paul VI, John XXIII and Vatican II, versus the teaching of the ‘Trads’?  Who is guiding the church then?  Does it not appear as if it’s going in two different directions, 180 degree polar opposites, at that?

Angelo asked me, “Do you consider the Sacraments as not so important. If you do, it is called heresy.” 

I do believe all the Sacraments are important, as Scripture indicates:

1- Understanding who Jesus is, and repenting for our sin - gives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, leading to a Baptism of Water, so that we can worship in Spirit and in Truth, as Jesus told the woman at the well.

2- Confession - “confess your sins, one to another”

3- Confirmation - See Sacrament No. 1 = it’s understanding what we believe

4- Communion - “Do not forsake the gathering of the assembly” and as in Acts of the Apostles, they met on the Lord’s Day, for the Lord’s Supper, to listen to readings, reflections, pray together & break Consecrated Bread.

5- Marriage - God created in Genesis

6- Holy Orders - “They laid hands on them”, ordaining them for special service for spreading of the Gospel = the Great Commission. Deacons, presbyters and bishops, all special roles in the church.

7- Anointing of the Sick - is in the book of James, “Are any of you sick?”
They are to go to the elders, that pray over them, and annoint them with oil.

Each Sacrament is of utmost importance, as is the Gathering of the Assembly, COMMUNAL PRAYER, which is why it’s troubling that Angelo wrote, “Also in order to worship Christ within me in Holy Communion I leave right after Communion in order to entertain the Divine Guest in my Soul.”

Angelo, in the Old Testament Holy Spirit came and went.  But in the New Testament, once a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit, He resides within us, and He never leaves us. It’s like a good faith deposit, and when we “work out our salvation”, it’s with His help. Another way to put it is that we work out our sanctification, after we have been justified, and declared not guilty before God the Father, as a result of Jesus’ sacrifice at Calvary, and His Resurrection, on our behalf.

If the Holy Spirit is only a guest that you go visit, and have with you only temporarily, you need to read Paul’s epistles more carefully, or even Peters—Peter and Paul were in agreement.  You need sound doctrine.
What we’re talking about here is God’s character.  Is God trustworthy, to do what He said He would do FOR us, and as a result of His Grace & Mercy.

Celinedesilva wrote: “The Catholic Church IS ABOUT THE HOLY EUCHARIST, THE SOURCE ANF SUMMIT OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH.  NO PRIEST = NO HOLY MASS = NO HOLY EUCHARIST = NO SACRAMENTS.” and “We the faithful will be lost without holy priests.”

My question: How do you explain Philip & the Ethiopian eunuch?

Celinedesilva wrote: “Our pastor brought our Lord out of the wall into the Tabernacle on the altar in the Chapel and will be doing the same in the Main Church in a few weeks.”

My question: How do you explain the fact that Jesus said He had no where to lay His head?

Celinedesilva wrote, “In the Church we have the deposit of faith in which we must be faithful to..”

My question: Specifically what is the ENTIRE Deposit of Faith that we are expected to believe?  I mean ALL of it.  It’s tiring to be told one isn’t correct in doctrine, and yet, the entirety of the doctrine is not spelled out.  Please, your thoughts?

Andrew, I back up what I do. I have no need to do this at a Tridentine Mass, as priests say it with reverance and according to the Rubrics. As for not hearing Mass if I miss certain parts, you are correct on one point, its not up for debate. The official teaching of the Church concerning ones participation at Holy Mass is this, From the Offeratory to the priests Communion one has fully participated in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I’ll give you a real life example. One day I attended a daily Mass, several of us arrived late. This time it wasn’t to avoid the liturgical abuses. At Communion, the priest stopped before descending the Altar and told us that we were not to approach for the reception of Communion. As we were not there to hear the word of God. Saying it was of no use to receive Communion, it would be for nothing if one did not hear the word of God first. 4 of us then genuflected in adoration and walked out. I called the Chancery office concerning this instance. I was requested to put it in writing and to put it in the Mail as soon as possible. The priest got a lashing from the Bishop. I was sent a letter from the Chancery stating the teaching of the Church, with the assurance that this priest would never do such a thing again, as we did no wrong. Now, you call me a fallen away Catholic, you said something grotesque to Celinedesilva. And you presume to judge who is a good or bad Catholic. Andrew, you are a liberal dissident who can’t get out of the 60’s and 70’s silly season of the Church. You aging hippies are from bygone days.  Wake up, the Church is making a comeback, all the liberal silliness has come to an end. Deo Gratias!

Terah James, I did not want to put it this way, but you are a bona fide Material Heretic (as opposed to formal heretic). You have no understanding of Sacred Scripture and the Church. One cannot divorce the Bible from the Church. When one does this, the evil one leads him/her to protestant errors. You are still a protestant, I do not lay the blame on you for this. I blame the company you keep. They have led you into modernist errors, and thats not at all good. I hope and will pray that you discover the truth about Christs Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Posted by Andrew on Saturday, Sep 8, 2012 2:11 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva
“My pastor is in his early 30’s.”  “The Priest I speak about is already a priest for over ten years.”… Soooooo…..which part of that are you making up?”

The heart of a fool is like a broken vessel, and no wisdom at all shall it hold. Ecclesiasticus 21:17]
The senseless man shall not know: nor will the fool understand these things. Psalms 91:7

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes:... Proverbs 12:15

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise. Proverbs 26:5

Andrew,
You imposter, you presume to know everyone but your bloated, pathetic self.

I don’t owe you any explanation.

However, for the edification of those who will be reading these comments:
A priest ordained at a bit under 26 years the age and is now not yet 36 years old, adds up to over 10 years of ordination.  To me that is a young priest in his early 30’s.

Andrew, “…your immature, clerical youngster…I would … invite him to kiss my (fill in the blank)…”

Are you saying this to our Lord Jesus Christ?

Andrew, I also address Terah James here,

As I said before, you are not Catholic but heretics, imposters who mock the Priesthood Instituted by Jesus Christ Himself in fulfilment of the Old Testament.

See my previous post on the importance of the Priesthood.

The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech. [Psalms 109:4]

For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. [Malachias 1:11]

I will let St. Jude speak here:
Stand to the faith first delivered to them and to beware of heretics.
[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ,

[3] Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

[4]For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[5] I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards destroy them that believed not:

[6] And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day.

[7] As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

*[8] In like manner these men also defile the flesh, and despise dominion, and blaspheme majesty.

[9] When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses,… said: The Lord command thee.

[10] But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted. [Jude 1:10]
*[8] Blaspheme majesty: Speak evil of them that are in dignity; and even utter blasphemies against the divine majesty. ..

**[11] Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core…. and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against God.

**[11] Gone in the way: Heretics follow the way of Cain, by murdering the souls of their brethren; the way of Balaam, by putting a scandal before the people of God, for their own private ends; and the way of Core or Korah, by their opposition to the church governors of divine appointment.

[16] These are murmurers, full of complaints, walking according to their own desires, and their mouth speaketh proud things, admiring persons for gain’s sake.

[17] But you, my dearly beloved, be mindful of the words which have been spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[18] Who told you, that in the last time there should come mockers, walking according to their own desires in ungodlinesses.

[19] These are they, who separate themselves, sensual men, having not the Spirit.

[20] But you, my beloved, building yourselves upon your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

[17] But you, my dearly beloved, be mindful: He now exhorts the faithful to remain steadfast in the belief and practice of what they had heard from the apostles, who had also foretold that in aftertimes (lit. in the last time) there should be false teachers, scoffing and ridiculing all revealed truths, abandoning themselves to their passions and lusts; who separate themselves from the Catholic communion by heresies and schisms. Sensual men, carried away and enslaved by the pleasures of the senses.

[20] Building yourselves upon your most holy faith: Raising by your actions, a spiritual building, founded, 1 st, upon faith; 2 d, on the love of God; 3 d, upon hope, whilst you are waiting for the mercies of God, and the reward of eternal life; 4 th, joined with the great duty of prayer.

[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto life everlasting.

[22] Reprove, being judged: He gives them another instruction to practice charity in endeavouring to convert their neighbour, where they will meet with three sorts of persons:

1 st, With persons obstinate in their errors and sins; these may be said to be already judged and condemned; they are to be sharply reprehended, reproved, and if possible convinced of their error.

2 d, As to others you must endeavour to save them, by pulling them, as it were, out of the fire, from the ruin they stand in great danger of.

3 d, You must have mercy on others in fear, when you see them through ignorance of frailty, in danger of being drawn into the snares of these heretics; with these you must deal more gently and mildly, with a charitable compassion, hating always, and teaching others to hate the carnal garment which is spotted, their sensual and corrupt manners, that defile both the soul and body.

[24] Now to him who is able to preserve you without sin, and to present you spotless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[25] To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power, before all ages, and now, and for all ages of ages. Amen.

[1] Then calling together the twelve apostles, he gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. [2] And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. [3] And he said to them: Take nothing for your journey; neither staff, nor scrip, nor bread, nor money; neither have two coats. [4] And whatsoever house you shall enter into, abide there, and depart not from thence.

[5] And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off even the dust of your feet, for a testimony against them. [Luke 9:5]

And again:

[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. [Matthew 10:14] Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city

At the ordination Mass of Fr Damien Lynch - The Apostolic Nuncio- Archbishop Charles J Brown said: ‘The Faith continues…with the ordination of a new priest, the Church continues to live.”

“…every priest, is ordained…in order to celebrate the Holy Eucharist; to feed the flock of Christ. To feed them by giving them Christ himself in the Holy Eucharist,”

Archbishop Brown underlined that knowing and loving God is an, “indispensable requirement for following the Lord as a priest,” and in order to respond to the mission Jesus gave his followers of feeding his sheep

“That is what a priest is sent to do: to feed, to nourish, to lead people to God. God, who is the source of all life, natural and supernatural.

The priest’s mission of feeding is most fully expressed in his celebration of Holy Mass,” the Nuncio stated.

THOU ART A PRIEST FOREVER

              To live in the midst of the world,
              Without wishing its pleasures;
              To be a member of each family,
              Yet belonging to none;
              To share all sufferings;
              To penetrate all secrets;
              To heal all wounds;
              To go from men to God
              And offer Him their Prayers;
              To return from God to men
              To bring pardon and hope;
              To have a heart of fire for charity
              And a heart of bronze for chastity;
              To teach and to pardon,
              Console and bless always—
              What a glorious life!
              And it is yours,
              O Priest of Jesus Christ!

Every Catholics, have a duty to pray and sacrifice for our Priests.

Celinedesilva, Never have I heard anyone speak with the fullness of Truth as you have done today. I was astonished and taken aback at the posts you wrote this great Sunday. I am going to copy what you said today and frame it so as to meditate on it daily. I’m numb with your posts, a numbness of joy and fear of the Lord, with a greater determination to serve God with an ever greater purity of Heart. Thank you Celinedesilva. My gratitude cannot be explained in words. May God reward you abundantly.

Celinedesilva = Angelo

@ Angelo: I am so sorry to hear you were treated so poorly at a morning Mass, and by a priest that should have known better.  It was cruel and ignorant of him.  I’m glad you wrote to your chancery, and am thrilled to know they addressed it as they should have.  Good for them!

No one should go through what happened to you.  It was uncharitable and the antithesis of the Christian way.  The only good thing is that the priest (hopefully) learned a lesson from it, and will be made a better priest as a result.

On behalf of every other Catholic: I thank you, Angelo, for your courage in addressing this event so well.

Celinedesilva - You quoted this verse: “The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech. [Psalms 109:4]”

That psalm refers to Jesus, our priest & Advocate to our Heavenly Father.  That psalm was referring to one person, only, a prophecy about Christ.  That’s why its in the singular tense, not in the plural tense.  It doesn’t say we will have “priests”.  It says Priest.

The only other place that speaks of the priesthood in the New Testament refers to the whole church, where we are called a “Priesthood of believers” and it’s because our collective instruction is to fulfill the Great Commission.

Secondly, Celinedesilva: while I admire your love of Scripture, you cut and paste so many unrelated verses that it’s often hard to follow your train of thought.  I know your intentions are well meaning, but please may I suggest to you that you just use the most pertinent verses, instead of so many?  Tons of verses come across like being hit over the head, and it reminds me of a man that stands on the streetcorner, with his open Bible and yells at people, telling them to repent or they’ll go to Hell. While the man is correct, his METHOD is wrong.  I once tried to engage him in conversation about that.  But he basically told me I too, would go to Hell, for not seeing that he was right.  (Sigh, I tried.)

Here is a little blessing that I thought everyone would like, on this Lord’s Day:

The Lord bless you
with the riches of His grace;
with the treasures of His love;
with the comfort of His mercies;
with the strength of His presence;
with the touch of His care.

I don’t know what a “Material Heretic” is.  A heretic is a heretic.
But I asked questions that went unanswered. So I’ll try again now: 

1) “What happens when successors of St. Peter differ, like Pope Paul VI, John XXIII & Vatican II, versus the teaching of the Trads? Who is guiding the church then?”

2) Regarding:
“NO PRIEST = NO HOLY MASS = NO HOLY EUCHARIST = NO SACRAMENTS” & “We the faithful will be lost without holy priests.”  How do you explain Philip & the Ethiopian eunuch?  Was the eunuch lost without Philip?  Was he not able to participate in the Lord’s Supper?  Where in Scripture does it say that the church is completely dependent for its existence, on a priest?

3) Celinedesilva wrote: “Our pastor brought our Lord out of the wall into the Tabernacle on the altar in the Chapel and will be doing the same in the Main Church in a few weeks.”  How do you explain the fact that Jesus said He had no where to lay His head?  I’ll add that God is everywhere, and perhaps someone else knows that in the Old Testament, but God Himself said He does not live in houses built by men.

4) Celinedesilva wrote, “In the Church we have the deposit of faith in which we must be faithful to..”

Specifically what is the ENTIRE Deposit of Faith that we are expected to believe?  I mean ALL of it.  It’s tiring to be told one isn’t correct in doctrine, and yet, the entirety of the doctrine is not spelled out.

Am I being labeled a “Material Heretic”, just because I asked questions?

Maxwell, “Celinedesilva=Angelo”, Thank you for this great honor you have given me. God grant you abundant Graces!

Terah James, There are two types of heretics as there are two types of schismatics. Namely Material and Formal. Material heresy is when one, not knowing, holds teachings contrary to what the Church officialy teaches. In this there is no sin or at the least venial sin, but can never be a mortal sin. Formal heresy is when one knowingly holds positions that he knows are contrary to the teachings of the Church, and has no intention of rectifying his error. That is why I recommend the older Cathecisms, as they contain the faith undiluted. Most of the newer cathecisms, teach all about nothing. Bl. John Paul ll had to order several Bishops to remove their Imprimaturs to some Cathechisms filled with errors. Both He and Pope Bendict XVl have called for an end to these severly difficient heretical Cathecisms. With the older Cathecisms, one is completely safe from error, as it should be.

Angelo, when you stand before God in judgment, will He question you about heresy and the Catechism or will He ask you what you did concerning His Son?

Dear Angelo,

Gratias! Deo Gratias!

We Catholics are all called to be as instruments of grace in humbly assisting one another in every way we can, to grow in our Faith, to love and obey our Holy Father, our Holy Mother the Church His Spotless Bride, and His holy and faithful Priests who give the Most Holy Eucharist daily, so that we can reach a deeper union with God.

As Catholics, by our prayer, works and actions, and with purity of intention and of heart, we are also called to help one another to become holy.  Jesus said: “Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus also said, “that we ought always to pray and not to faint”

As I said in my previous post our Blessed Lord tells us, “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.” 

God is constantly speaking to us through the Scriptures which was given to us by His Holy Church.  Listen to the words of God:

TALK NOT MUCH WITH A FOOL, AND GO NOT WITH HIM THAT HATH NO SENSE[15] KEEP THYSELF FROM HIM, THAT THOU MAYST NOT HAVE TROUBLE, AND THOU SHALT NOT BE DEFILED WITH HIS SIN.

[16] TURN AWAY FROM HIM, AND THOU SHALT FIND REST, AND SHALT NOT BE WEARIED OUT WITH HIS FOLLY.

You may be interested in the DOUAY-RHEIMS HOLY BIBLE ONLINE: http://www.drbo.org
This English translation is not a twisted, feminist, distorted, inclusive and politically correct Bible.

God bless you and yours

In union of prayer
Celine

Posted by Casting Crowns on Sunday, Sep 9, 2012 9:11 PM (EST):
“Angelo, when you stand before God in judgment, will He question you about heresy and the Catechism or will He ask you what you did concerning His Son?”

From his comments, I see Angelo trying very hard to dispel heresy, instruct the ignorant, arrogant and the foolish.

I see Angelo defending the Church Militant – The Spotless Bride of Christ, His Vicar on Earth, Catholic Doctrine and the Most Holy Eucharist.

That is what Angelo is doing “concerning His Son.” 

That is what all Catholics, members of the Church Militant are called to do. – FAITH AND WORKS -  Corporal Works of Mercy and Spiritual Works of Mercy.

Catholicism is not a saccharine concoction of new age nicey nice, anything goes …light a candle, place a flower, wave a flag, fly into the lap of Jesus drivel.

Being a Catholic is serious business.  Just look at the Apostles and the Saints.

CHURCH TEACHING ON THESE PASSAGES OF HOLY SCRIPTURE

26] Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying: Arise, go towards the south,… [27] And rising up, he went.. a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch,… had come to Jerusalem to adore. [28] And… and reading Isaias the prophet. [29] And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. [30] And Philip…, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?

[31] Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. [32] And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: ***He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. [33] In humility his judgment was taken away

***( 6] All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. [Isaias (Isaiah) 53:7])

[35] Then Philip, opening his mouth…preached unto him Jesus.
[36] And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized?

*****[37] And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
[38] And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him. [Acts Of Apostles 8:38] [39]…he went his way rejoicing.
*****[37] IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THY HEART: THE SCRIPTURE MANY TIMES MENTIONS ONLY ONE DISPOSITION, AS HERE BELIEF, WHEN OTHERS EQUALLY NECESSARY ARE NOT EXPRESSED, VIZ., A SORROW FOR SINS, A FIRM HOPE, AND THE LOVE OF GOD. MOREOVER, BELIEVING WITH THE WHOLE HEART SIGNIFIES A BELIEF OF EVERY THING NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

[James 1:16] Do not err, therefore, my dearest brethren. [17] Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, WITH WHOM THERE IS NO CHANGE, NOR SHADOW OF ALTERATION.

******Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

****** [18] The gates of hell: THAT IS, THE POWERS OF DARKNESS, AND WHATEVER SATAN CAN DO, EITHER BY HIMSELF, OR HIS AGENTS.
FOR AS THE CHURCH IS HERE LIKENED TO A HOUSE, OR FORTRESS, BUILT ON A ROCK; SO

THE ADVERSE POWERS ARE LIKENED TO A CONTRARY HOUSE OR FORTRESS, THE GATES OF WHICH, THAT IS, THE WHOLE STRENGTH, AND ALL THE EFFORTS IT CAN MAKE, WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PREVAIL OVER THE CITY OR CHURCH OF CHRIST.

BY THIS PROMISE WE ARE FULLY ASSURED, THAT NEITHER IDOLATRY, HERESY, NOR ANY PERNICIOUS ERROR WHATSOEVER SHALL AT ANY TIME PREVAIL OVER THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

@CelinedesilvaAngelo

ZZzzzzzzzzzz….....

“May prayer strengthen us for the spiritual battle we are told about in the Letter to the Ephesians: ‘Draw strength from the Lord and from His mighty power’ (Ephesians 6:10).

The Book of Revelation refers to this same battle, recalling before our eyes the image of St. Michael the Archangel (Revelation 12:7).

Pope Leo XIII certainly had a very vivid recollection of this scene when, at the end of the last century, he introduced a special prayer to St. Michael throughout the Church. Although this prayer is no longer recited at the end of Mass, I ask everyone not to forget it and to recite it to obtain help in the battle against forces of darkness and against the spirit of this world.”’

Saint Michael the Archangel,

defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Amen.

Pray to Our Lady of Good Counsel

Most Glorious Virgin, you were chosen by the eternal Counsel to be the Mother of the Eternal Word made flesh. You are the treasurer of divine graces and the advocate of sinners. We who are your most unworthy servants have recourse to thee. Graciously be our guide and counselor in this valley of tears.

Obtain for us, through the Precious Blood of your Divine Son, the forgiveness of our sins, the salvation of our souls, and the means necessary to obtain it. In like manner, obtain for the Holy Church victory over Her enemies and the spread of Jesus’ kingdom over the whole earth

Posted by Maxwell on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 8:25 AM (EST):
@CelinedesilvaAngelo

ZZzzzzzzzzzz….....

Posted by Maxwell on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 8:25 AM (EST):
@CelinedesilvaAngelo
ZZzzzzzzzzzz….....

[4] They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent: the venom of asps is under their lips. [Psalms 139:4

@Celinedesilva:  How nice that you area proficient in copy & paste of Scripture (and of prayers written by someone other than yourself).  You would have more credibility if you actually wrote something in your OWN words.  Is there some point you are hoping to make?  If yes, use your own words.

Catholics use the Prayers of the Catholic Church when they pray aloud.

Catholics recognize the prayers of the Catholic Church as Written by the Catholic Church.

The prayers of the Catholic Church belong to all Catholics.

I am not, clapping, swaying, fainting, speaking in tongues, Evangelical,  babbling “thank you Jesus… Thank you Jesus… praise the Lord…Protestant.

I AM A ROMAN CATHOLIC

@Celinedesilva:  [“I am not babbling “thank you Jesus… Thank you Jesus… praise the Lord.”] Oh really?  You’re sure about that ??  “It right to give Him THANKS and PRAISE” which is taken from the Offertory prayer before the Consecration.  Are Catholics also “babbling” this rote prayer?  As for swaying and clapping—when was the last time you visited mass at a predominantly Black Catholic parish?  Have you seen the film of John Paul II or Benedict visiting some third world countries?  I detest your clear bigotry and unChristian charity, Miss Celinedesilva.

Casting Crowns, In answer to your questions, I will give you a reason for my Faith. Celinedesilva put it like this, “Being a Catholic is serious business”. Believe it or not, there are those who actually love the Church, and seek to love God and Neighbor. There! you recieved the answer to all your questions! As for your comment to Celinedesilva Sept, 10, 10:20 AM. It immediatly reminded me of the enemies of Christ in scripture. Like those enemies, it sounds like you ask your questions with the sole intention of setting traps. Tell me, did you ask Celinedesilva those questions because you youself find yourself trapped at being confronted with Truth? Maxwell, “ZZZzzzzzzzz…” Are you covering your ears and faking sleep so as not to hear the truth that perhaps gnaws your conscience? Why not just love the Church and join those who are defending Her in these sad days. It is meritorious to give up the honors of the world for the treasure who is Jesus Christ our Lord. One cannot live life to the full as Christ promised without Christ and the Church he founded.

Casting Crowns, I believe Celinedesilva is talking about those who yell out “Thank you Jesus” and “Praise the Lord” repeatedly without meaning it. Its called useless repetitious prayer that displeases God. And I’m not talking about repetitious prayer that pleases God. As for Praising God the same holds true. An example of Praising God in a manner that pleases him can be found in Celinedesilva’s posts. She raises what God says to the heights, she presents it with love for Gods Word and Truth. With love for God and Neighbor, with gratitude to our Lord. This is the Praise that pleases God! You must be desperate, you are now accusing Celinedesilva of “bigotry and unChristian charity,”. Why did you invent that false accusation? Are you trying to distract from what is really being discussed? In Charity I say, you need to go to Confession!

@Angelo, you said —“I believe Celinedesilva is talking about those who yell out “Thank you Jesus” and “Praise the Lord” repeatedly without meaning it.”  And how do you know such Christian people do not “mean” it?  You seem certain that all Catholics “mean” it while Christians do not.  The statement expressed by Celinedesilva was one of ridicule to anyone non-Catholic.  THAT is bigotry.  Is this what you are defending?  Non Catholic Christians are less devoted to Christ?

@CelinedesilvaAngelo

“....Celinedesilva is talking about those who yell out “Thank you Jesus” and “Praise the Lord” repeatedly without meaning it.”

Yep, pretty sure that’s what Casting Crowns means by “bigotry”.

Casting Crowns, How do you fail to see that you completely changed the subject with Celinedesilva? Let me refresh your memory, you jumped out of nowhere with, “as for swaying and clapping-when was the last time you visited mass at…” You completely changed the subject we are on. Why? As for people not meaning it. I know firsthand, at the age of 17 I joined the Charismatic Renewal, and we were all faking it with the sin of emotionalism. Thank God I got out of it. Maxwell, why do you invent things by deliberatly distorting what someone else says. With that accusation of “Bigotry”, the Church calls it the sin of Calumny, God will judge the circumstance as to whether it was a mortal sin or a venial sin.

Casting Crowns, Another thing. Why do you say, “Catholics “mean” it while Christians do not”. Catholics are the true Christians. I see you are really a protestant infiltrating a Catholic site. You yourself gave yourself away. Why don’t you go comment on a site of your own religion?

@CelinedesilvaAngelo

To be clear so I don’t mistake you - you are saying that the only Christians are Catholics?  If so, I am curious how you feel about Fr. Feeney?

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 10:20 AM (EST):

“@Celinedesilva: How nice that you area proficient in copy & paste of Scripture (and of prayers written by someone other than yourself). You would have more credibility if you actually wrote something in your OWN words. Is there some point you are hoping to make? If yes, use your own words.”

MY OWN SCRIPT:

As a daughter of the Church, I am using the Holy Scripture given to me by my Holy Mother the Catholic Church.  I am using the interpretation of Holy Scripture given to me by the same Holy Mother Church.

It’s hard to refute the unadulterated verses of Holy Scripture and harder still to ignore the interpretation of the same unchanging word of God by the Holy Catholic Church.

Casting Crowns “You would have more credibility… in your OWN words.”

I am not seeking credibility.  I am seeking that the Truth of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church Instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ be told, known, loved and lived.

I AM A ROMAN CATHOLIC, AND AS ONE, WILL NEVER WRITE MY OWN SCRIPTURE, deleting and adding like someone called Mr. Martin Luther and his faithful followers the protest-ants who have led thousands astray.

NOT MY OWN SCRIPT

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.

Casting Crowns “…, use your own words…”

MY OWN SCRIPT

Again, I am not a Protestant. 

No wonder there are 38,000 so called Christian denominations, cults and assemblies and still growing exponentially - Each one writing 1 OF 38,000 OF THEIR OWN SCRIPT, THEIR OWN MORALITY; AND OWN RIGHT AND OWN WRONG; AND OWN PRAYER AND “OWN WORDS”

NOT MY OWN SCRIPT

[10] And when he was alone, the twelve that were with him asked him the parable.
[11] And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables:

****[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand: lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. [Mark 4:12]

[13] And he saith to them: Are you ignorant of this parable? and how shall you know all parables?

[14] He that soweth, soweth the word.

[15] And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown, and as soon as they have heard, immediately Satan cometh and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

INTERPRETATION OF HOLY MOTHER CHURCH

****[12] That seeing they may see: in punishment of their wilfully shutting their eyes, (St. Matt. 13. 15,) God justly withdrew those lights and graces, which otherwise he would have given them, for their effectual conversion.

13] And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

Posted by Maxwell on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 2:50 PM (EST):

@CelinedesilvaAngelo
To be clear so I don’t mistake you - you are saying that the only Christians are Catholics?  If so, I am curious how you feel about Fr. Feeney?

NO MAXWELL.

ALL CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIAN

NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE CATHOLIC.

@Angelo:  Why must you resort to the usual degeneration of discussion and call people Protestant (even Catholics who do not agree?).  What’s coming next?  “You hate the church”—“You are your own pope” and all that usual blather when Catholics get frustrated and are unable to talk about anything.  Are you unable to hold objective conversations of faith?  By the way, Christianity is not a “religion” . . . it is a relationship with Jesus (the Christ).

And I, too, have attended Catholic Charismatic conventions.  I can only report what I have seen, though.  Too many people at these rallies seem misguided with euphoria of the “experiential” having nothing to do with Jesus.  They are more interested in gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Too much focus and distraction away from Christ is purely Satanic deception.  This is not servanthood and obedience to Him (but all about one self).  Why the church endorses and allows this movement to continue calls into question the leadership of church fathers.  They, too, can be easily deceived.

@Celinedesilva:  You are a Catholic Bigot lost in legalism.  You are nothing but a modern day Pharisee.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 3:12 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva:  You are a Catholic Bigot lost in legalism.  You are nothing but a modern day Pharisee.

Thanks.  It’s a grace to follow even a little bit in the footsteps of the Master.

[20] And many of them said: He hath a devil, and is mad: why hear you him?...

[25] Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.
[26] But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

[John 10:26] [27] My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. [28] And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.

[29] That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. [30] I and the Father are one.

[30] I and the Father are one: That is, one divine nature, but two distinct persons.

[31] The Jews then took up stones to stone him.

@Celinedesilva—“It’s a grace to follow even a little bit in the footsteps of the Master.”  Excellent.  Little bit?  Quite true.  “You honor me with your lips but not your heart.”  Spoken as a true Pharisee which Jesus detailed in Matthew 23.

When I was first considering converting to Catholicism, I went with a friend to a Roman Catholic Charismatic Convention.  The people were really nice.  But when they began to speak in tongues, it made us feel left out.

My Catholic friend (from birth) and I didn’t understand a word that was being said.  Later, she one of them what it meant to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. The lady (a nice lady) asked her one question: “Do you speak in tongues?”  When she told the lady she did not, and added that she didn’t think it was necessary to speak in tongues, the lady told her she was “rebellious” and suggested she practice speaking in tongues, in the shower!  No kidding.  I’m serious.  My friend and I were shocked.

So when Casting Crowns mentioned that Catholic Charismatics can sometimes put more emphasis on “the gift” than the Giver of the gift, he/she is correct.  At least, that has been what I have witnessed.

This is all the more reason why we NEED sound doctrine taught - everywhere, by parents to children, at home, on Sundays at Mass, from the altar, and in our church bulletins and in our diocesan newspapers.  Our country is in dire straights now - and we NEED GOD in our lives, we need to have an accurate picture of Who the Holy Trinity is, and how we can relate to the three Divine Persons.  Are there any priests or bishops reading this blog?  If so: please educate us better, and about the important matters about our faith.

Again, Angelo, thank you for your contribution about your charismatic experience, on this blog.  It’s very helpful.  I appreciate your candor!
Practice in the shower!!  My friend disregarded that suggestion, and the lady was very sweet too, so this is not a cut against anyone that (perhaps) does have the gift of tongues.

Only, there should be an intepreter, so that there will not be confusion or anyone (like me and my friend) that felt alienated that day.  There were priests at that convention, and I’d like to think they could teach TRUTH better now?  But I don’t know.  I’ve not been back to conventions.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 3:12 PM (EST):
“You are a Catholic Bigot lost in legalism.”

  You call me a “Catholic Bigot” only because I tell the truth.

1.  Firstly, what on earth are you a Protestant doing on a Catholic website?  Infiltrating????

Casting Crowns on Monday, Sep 10, 2012 3:59 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva—“….” Excellent. Little bit? Quite true. “You honor me with your lips but not your heart.” Spoken as a true Pharisee which Jesus detailed in Matthew 23.”

2.  Casting Crowns: “which Jesus detailed in Matthew 23.”

Which Bible are you using?  Not the Catholic Bible that was given to the world by The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for sure.

 
Did you “WRITE YOUR OWN” bible and that quote?  The twisted passage you quoted IS NOT MATTHEW 23

The real Quote is in MATTHEW 15:18.

I WILL FORWARD RELEVANT VERSES SO THAT ALL CAN SEE WHO JESUS ADDRESSED THIS TO AND THE EXACT WORDING OF THE QUOTED VERSE.

MATTHEW 15:8 “…Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying: [8] THIS PEOPLE HONOURETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS: BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.

****[9] And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

[10] And having called together the multitudes unto him, he said to them: Hear ye and understand.

Mother interpreting:

****[9] Commandments of men: The doctrines and commandments here reprehended are such as are either contrary to the law of God, (as that of neglecting parents, under pretence of giving to God,) or at least are frivolous, unprofitable, and no ways conducing to true piety, as that of often washing hands, etc., without regard to the purity of the heart.

But as to the rules and ordinances of the holy church, touching fasts, festivals, etc., these are no ways repugnant to, but highly agreeable to God’s holy word, and all Christian piety: neither are they to be counted among the doctrines and commandments of men; because they proceed not from mere human authority; but from that which Christ has established in his church; whose pastors he has commanded us to hear and obey, even as himself. St. Luke 10. 16; St. Matt. 18. 17.

[12] Then came his disciples, and said to him:…

[13] But he answering them, said: Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

***[14] Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit. …

***[18] But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart, and those things defile a man. [Matthew 15:18]

[19] For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

***Go look in the mirror and see if this looks like you

Casting Crowns, Funny you should accuse me of using degenerative terms. Are you not the grand Master of this? You falsley accused Celinedesilva of being a Bigot. If I did not say it before I will say it now “You hate the Church”, Celinedesilva has spoken the truth as the Church teaches it, and it bothers you. Why? I’ll tell you why, its because you hate the Church and you make yourself your own Pope. Sorry! We already have a God chosen Pope, you need not apply. As for Christianity not being a religion. Explain why you have that false notion. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is the religion founded by Christ, for 2000 years we have called ourselves Christians to mark ourselves as followers of Jesus Christ. I do not believe you know what it is to have “a relationship with Jesus”. To give you a really good understanding of what it means to have a relationship with Jesus, I hold up to you Celinedesilva who holds to the truth Christ teaches through his Holy Roman Catholic Church. She does this because she is in union with Christ (personal relationship). If she were not in union with Christ, she would not be defending him and defending the truth Christ teaches us through Scripture and Tradition through his pure and spotless Bride the Catholic Church. If you are going to call yourself Catholic, then start thinking and acting like one!

I can’t believe on this sacred anniversary of 9/11 I still have these polarizing e-mails coming across from Catholic Christians.  Can’t you just cut it out for a day and contemplate the wonder of how God blessed us, undeserved as we are, to be living in this great country?

As I wrote days ago, please Go In Peace, at least for a day.

Joseph, Are we to remember 9/11 24 hours non stop. Of course we remember 9/11, but does that mean that we must become paralyzed in our daily lives? The comments we are posting are in fact contemplating the wonder of God’s blessings through his Holy Catholic Church. I see you could’nt keep yourself from posting a comment!

@Angelo

“I see you could’nt keep yourself from posting a comment!”  “...paralyzed in our daily lives?” ?
That is so immature (and poorly written) that it doesn’t warrant a rebuttal.

1 day…1 day.  Even our pitiful presidential candidates will spare 1 day.

Go In Peace

By the way All Catholics are Christian.  Real Catholics do not call themselves Catholic Christians.

Our Holy Mother the Church, prays daily for the dead at every single Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered throughout the World.

Only in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church do we remember, UNIVERSALLY, the dead on ALL SOULS DAY.  NOVEMBER 2ND.

Posted by Angelo on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 11:51 AM (EST):

“…The comments we are posting are in fact contemplating the wonder of God’s blessings through his Holy Catholic Church…” ”does that mean that we must become paralyzed in our daily lives?”

Angelo is right.

Our Lord Himself has inspired Angelo.

[59] But he said to another: Follow me. And he said: Lord, suffer me first to go, and to bury my father. [60] AND JESUS SAID TO HIM: LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD: BUT GO THOU, AND PREACH THE KINGDOM OF GOD. [Luke 9:60]

[61] And another said: I will follow thee, Lord; but let me first take my leave of them that are at my house. [62] JESUS SAID TO HIM: NO MAN PUTTING HIS HAND TO THE PLOUGH, AND LOOKING BACK, IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

You mean spirited anti-Catholic, bashers; take this up with our Blessed Lord.

@Angelo:  Celinedesilva’s comments are totally bigoted.  Where is her love for your “separated bretheren?”  And where is yours?  In typical form, you are unable to hold any semblance of objective conversation without resorting to “You hate the church,” “You are your own Pope,” and all your other blather of legalism.  Just what we need, Angelo, more people like you who can only play Catholic policeman and never question (nor examine) certain teachings.  Were you at Mass on Sunday?  I was.  What did you take away from the gosple reading of Mark 7?  Or are you like virtually every other Catholic I speak to after Mass and cannot even remember even one of the three readings nor the homily.  Two people thanked a priest on the outside steps for his homily and he wasn’t even the celebrant.

@Angelo:  “I do not believe you know what it is to have “a relationship with Jesus”.  And of course, you do?

@CelinedesilvaAngelo - “Real Catholics do not call themselves Catholic Christians.”

I remind you of the words of St. Padre Pio, “a man who boasts of being a real Catholic while judging others as not, will surely find himself burning in the fires of eternal damnation.”

You might wish to take Joseph’s advice and Go in Peace.

@Celinedesilva (the bigoted Catholic)  “By the way All Catholics are Christian.  Real Catholics do not call themselves Catholic Christians.”  Your statement would come as news to one local diocesan Pastor.  If the etymology of “Christos” is not to your liking, then why do you not call yourself a “Disciple of Jesus the Christ” instead of Catholic?  Likely you see yourself as more important than St. Paul.  Oh, but then there’s that problem again of legalism you cling so tightly to for justification in Christ.

Joseph, Your comment was not so good either. What stupidity to stop all that were doing because its September 11, 2012. Why don’t you get off your computer for just one day. Take your own advice. Practice what you preach.

Casting Crowns and Maxwell, Sounds like your both hotheaded at this time. I’ll answer you when you have calmed down from your desparation. You are both sore losers who want to impose your hatred for the Church, and when you fail miserably, you get all worked up over nothing.

Poor, poor Angelo - “Why don’t you get off your computer for just one day.”

I understand math is difficult for you and you shouldn’t be ashamed, so take it easy before you hurt yourself.  I haven’t posted or looked at this site for 5 days.

Be careful Angelo, I hear it’s difficult to walk with your tail between your legs….

Posted by Maxwell on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 1:24 PM (EST):
@CelinedesilvaAngelo - “Real Catholics do not call themselves Catholic Christians.”  I remind you of the words of St. Padre Pio, “a man who boasts of being a real Catholic while judging others as not, will surely find himself burning in the fires of eternal damnation.”

No results found for “a man who boasts of being a real Catholic while judging others as not, will surely find himself burning in the fires of eternal damnation.” Padre pio

So Maxwell, you not only conveniently lie, looks like you are in cahoots with the father of lies.  Saint Padre Pio was tormented by the devil.

TALK ABOUT THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.

You have not only judged you have also condemned using a lie attributed to St.  Padre Pio.

It is significant that comments such as these are on a post for a man who was supposed to be a priest.  Well….

This is to all of of you, Cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns and laity who call yourselves Catholic and who are in the camp of Carlo Maria Martini…

You guitar strumming, Kumbiya, social justice, for: women priests, married priests, contracepting, disobedient to Church teaching and the Pope, legalizing civil marriage for homosexuals, selective abortion,  distorted ecumenism, all religions are the same, follow your conscience, Church must change, “Church is 200 years behind”  “Catholic Christians.”

REAL CATHOLICS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE OF 38,000 SECTS.

If you continue in your erroneous path

Maxwell said:  “…will surely find himself burning in the fires of eternal damnation.”

@CelinedesilvaAngelo - “No results found for….”

Seriously?  The depth of your knowledge is a Google search?  For heaven’s sake, now I’m embarrassed to have even stooped so low as to respond to a poser like you.

@Celinedesilva who says to Maxwell:  “REAL CATHOLICS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE OF 38,000 SECTS.”  I heard the # was 23,000 and then changed to 63,000.  Regardless, if you are an example of a REAL Catholic, I would prefer sitting at least 20 pews away from you at mass.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 3:10 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva who says to Maxwell:  “REAL CATHOLICS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE OF 38,000 SECTS.” 

The figure 39,000 represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. Unfortunately, we do not have a comprehensive list of all denominations by name. Such a list would be lengthy indeed!

I hope this informations helps.
Thank you,

Justin J. Evans
Research Assistant

Center for the Study of Global Christianity
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
130 Essex Street #228
South Hamilton, MA 01982 USA
E-mail:
World Christian Database
GCTS - Global Christianity - Center for the Study of Global Christianity
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
World Christian Encyclopedia

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 3:10 PM (EST):

@Celinedesilva who says to Maxwell:  “REAL CATHOLICS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE OF 38,000 SECTS.”  Regardless, if you are an example of a REAL Catholic, I would prefer sitting at least 20 pews away from you at mass.

The way you write “mass” tells me how much you know.

You would never be able to sit even 100 pews away from me because someone like you would not want to go to THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS, I GO TO, THOUGH IT WOULD DO YOU MUCH GOOD FOR YOUR SOUL, if you did go.

We don’t shake hands, meet and greet, hold hands and sway, we receive Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue as should be.

The Holy Mass I go to is what made thousands of Saints.

I am blessed to be able to sing His Praises through the beautiful Gregorian and other Traditional Chants of the Church.

All this is slowly but surely coming back.

@Celinedesilva

What is the problem with meeting and greeting your fellow parishioners?  I’ve never heard of that being a problem.

@Celinedesilva:  Now you are exposed.  There are Catholics and then there are the sect of Catholics who elevate themselves as “REAL” Catholics.

Am I just too sensitive today, or have the comments on this blog gotten off subject, crossed a line, and become way too personal?  There is no excuse for not remaining polite.  Instead of trying to out-Catholic each other, how about we all just speak like a “Christian”?

Folks: read what you’re writing, please?  Let’s all be civil.  Even pagans can be civil.

@Man Who Loved Cat Dancing:  No doubt you should expect a shameful tongue wagging from Celine for bringing your Burt Reynold movie title to this blog only for *REAL* Catholics.  The truth, though, is now exposed.  Celinedesilva and Angelo belong to the secret sect of Catholics who totally disavow the Novus Ordo Mass and count all Vatican II changes as shameful and illegitimate.  Every Pope forward from John XXII, Paul VI, JP2 and Benedict are false and illegitimate.  The only *REAL* Mass for *REAL* Catholics is the Tridentine Mass (Latin).  Only *REAL* Catholics receive the Eucharist on the tongue [and kneeling down].  Everyone else is false Catholic.  Never mind that Jesus passed out bread and wine for all to handle at the last supper.  Greetings at the start of Mass, the Sign of Peace, Eucharistic Ministers and the Altar facing the people is a farce worthy of Satan.  These *REAL* Catholics desire to separate themselves and have their own church, the ONE TRUE CHRUCH founded by Christ.  (They will repeat than drumbeat over and over).  They desire their own Pope and their own doctrine—exactly what they accuse their “separated bretheren” of doing.  They desire to only attend Mass in groups of those separatists (aka *REAL* Catholics) who think and believe as they do.  Duplicity abounds.  Celinedesilva and Angelo are both modern day Pharisees (trolls) worshipping not Jesus (the Christ) but worshipping a system of legalism.

Joseph, You have trouble comprehending, I meant get off the computer today! so that you can remember 9/11. Maxwell, thanks for the warning, I will learn from what I consider to be your personal experience. Funny what happens to men when confronted with the truth they deny. Real proof that we Catholics faithful to Holy Mother Church are doing what all Heaven wants. Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!

@Terrah:  No, we cannot speak as Christians because Celinedesilva says:  “*REAL* Catholics do not call themselves Catholic Christians.”  She and Angelo belong to a secret sect seeking to overthrow and replace Benedict VI and the Novus Ordo.

Casting Crowns, How did you discover us? But we are no longer in secret, we have come out of the underground Church. Only to do battle against the heretical liberals. Christ is being restored to Catholicism and Pope Benedict XVl is leading us. Are you going lunatic on us?

From Angelo:  “Real proof that we Catholics faithful to Holy Mother Church are doing what all Heaven wants. Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!”  The “we”—is REAL Catholics.  They all talk this way and use the same phrases.  Holy Mother Church for *REAL* Catholics is to remove all vestiges of Vatican II including music at Mass.  “Et cum spiritu tuo.”

Casting Crowns, Celinedesilva brought out many scriptual passages in which God tells us, not to keep company with fools. I will take God’s advice which she pointed out. Requiescant In Pace! to you and all the liberalism that is the smoke of satan entering into the very house of God. Its great to be a Catholic. Deo Gratias!

Posted by Maxwell on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 3:08 PM (EST):
@CelinedesilvaAngelo - “No results found for….”
Seriously? The depth of your knowledge is a Google search? For heaven’s sake, now I’m embarrassed to have even stooped so low as to respond to a poser like you.”

Is that all you could comment on? Side tracking the issues discussed?

Maxwell, you first have to learn the English Language.

“Poser” means:  Problem, question, puzzle, conundrum, challenge, riddle. 
Which one are you referring to?

Provide a factual reference as I did with “casting crowns”

In doing so I just found out that there are not 38,000 but 39,000 Christian sects.

Maxwell, You should be embarrassed that you got caught lying.

St. Paul tells us to be on our guard against people in high places “who have to stoop down like you”

[12] For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness IN THE HIGH PLACES. [Ephesians 6:12]

You had to look up poser on the “internets” - that is priceless!  I love it!  Hey, maybe you can list the extra 1,000 Christian sects that you discovered on Wikipedia?  Just way too funny!

Posted by Maxwell on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 8:28 PM (EST):
You had to look up poser on the “internets” - that is priceless!  I love it!  Hey, maybe you can list the extra 1,000 Christian sects that you discovered on Wikipedia?  Just way too funny!

YOU ARE INDEED A VERY IGNORANT FOOL

The figure 39,000 represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. Unfortunately, we do not have a comprehensive list of all denominations by name. Such a list would be lengthy indeed!

I hope this informations helps.
Thank you,

Justin J. Evans
Research Assistant

Center for the Study of Global Christianity
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
130 Essex Street #228
South Hamilton, MA 01982 USA
E-mail:

World Christian Database
GCTS - Global Christianity - Center for the Study of Global Christianity
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
World Christian Encyclopedia

Padre Pio’s experience like most of the comments on this post.

Satan went beyond all the limits of deception when he went to Father Pio pretending to be a penitent.

This is the Father Pio’s testimony: “One day, while I was hearing confessions, a man came to the confessional where I was. He was tall, handsome, dressed with some refinement and he was kind and polite.

He started to confess his sins, which were of every kind: against God, against man and against the morals. All the sins were obnoxious! I was disoriented, in fact for all the sins that he told me, but I responded to him with God’s Word, the example of the Church, and the morals of the Saints.

But the enigmatic penitent answered me word for word, justifying his sins, always with extreme ability and politeness. He excused all the sinful actions, making them sound quite normal and natural, even comprehensible on the human level.. He continued this way with the sins that were gruesome against God, Our Lady, the Saints, always using disrespectful round-about argumentation.

He kept this up even with with the foulest of sins that could be conjured in the mind of a most sinful man. The answers that he gave me with such skilled subtlety and malice surprised me. I wondered: who is he? What world does he come from? And I tried to look at him in order to read something on his face. At the same time I concentrated on every word he spoke, trying to discover any clue to his identity..

But suddenly; through a vivid, radiant and internal light I clearly recognized who he was.

With a sound and imperial tone I told him: “Say long live Jesus, long live Mary!” As soon as I pronounced these sweet and powerful names,

Satan instantly disappeared in a trickle of fire, leaving behind him an unbearable stench.” (Don Pierino is a priest and one of the father Pio’s spiritual sons who were present at the same time.)

@Angelo, you said “It’s great to be a Catholic.”  Yet, by your own admittance you are part of the underground church, a church sect long in rebellion against the church fathers.  You and Celinedesilva have been disobedient to the Vatican, the Papacy and the Magisterium.  Since you are disobedient, how can you call yourself a good Catholic?  Your parish is now taking registrations in September for RCIA.  There is still time for you to join the program of “Come Home” to the Catholic Church, repent of your disobedience and learn the fullness of the faith.

Casting Crowns, What part of “Requiescant In Pace” completely boggles your mind? Do you not understand when one does not wish to comment or recieve comments? Take it for what its worth! Go and sing 1000 versus of kumbaya and add, Angelo hates heresy, Kumbaya Lord.

@Angelo, I understand singing Kumbaya was performed often in the Catholic folk Mass during the late 60’s as a way to attract the youth away from the Jesus Movement of Chuck Smith.  You also sang “And They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love” with multiple acoustic guitars.  But then, again, there is your problem and Celinedesilva’s problem of using the word “Christian.”  You deny the Novus Ordo as a false Mass, guitars are Satanic and “Christos” should never pass your lips.  People of your Catholic underground sect are Pharisees trapped in legalism.  You still have time to join the RCIA this month and learn what the church really teaches.  I will pray for you, Angelo.

Go ahead and scoff at me all you want, but Kumbaya is a beautiful old spiritual that invites people in through song.  I wouldn’t hesitate to attend a Mass where it was sung.  And, “They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love,” had my brothers and I singing after Mass all the way home and while we were doing afternoon chores on the farm.

Maybe it was simple music and liturgically incorrect.  But, it was certainly not evil and it did what you say, New Observer, it helped to keep us in the Church in times that were very rough.  (and yes, I’m 50)

Man Who Loved Cat Dancing, When in Summer Camp I loved Kumbaya, In Cathecism I loved “They will know we are Christians by our love”. As a boy in the 60’ and 70’s I grew up with these hymns. And I loved them. Until my teenage years I heard from hardline Catholics that these were not appropiate for the Holy Mass. Because of the nature of the Mass itself. So I do not scoff at you, I’m 53, so we are in the same boat. What type of Catechism were you taught? My Catechism was a modernist montrosity. It was blatant heresy, according to Rome today.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2012 3:10 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva who says to Maxwell: “REAL CATHOLICS KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE OF 38,000 SECTS.” I heard the # was 23,000 and then changed to 63,000.

CASTING CROWNS YOU DISTORTED THE NUMBER TO “63,000” at the rate you are going soon it will be. 

You ignore and change the subject, invent lies, liberally use the word “Pharisee’ and throw up demonic tantrums when cornered.  Like satan himself, you attack full force under different guises.

 
PONDER ON THESE WORDS OF OUR lORD. [31] Wherefore you are witnesses against yourselves…[33] You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? [Matthew 23:33]

WHY DID YOU NOT COMMENT ON THE FACTS I GAVE YOU?

HERE IT IS AGAIN.

The figure 39,000 represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. Unfortunately, we do not have a comprehensive list of all denominations by name. Such a list would be lengthy indeed!

I hope this informations helps.
Thank you,
Justin J. Evans
Research Assistant

Center for the Study of Global Christianity
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
130 Essex Street #228
South Hamilton, MA 01982 USA
E-mail:
World Christian Database
GCTS - Global Christianity - Center for the Study of Global Christianity
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
World Christian Encyclopedia

WORDS OF INSTRUCTION, WISDOM AND TRUTH

FROM OUR HOLY FATHER POPE BENEDICT XV1

The Wrath of God:

“The wrath of God is a way of saying that I have been living in a way that is contrary to the love that is God. Anyone who begins to live and grow away from God, who lives away from what is good, is turning his life toward wrath.”

On True Love:

“Love, in the true sense, is not always a matter of giving way, being soft, and just acting nice. In that sense, a sugar-coated Jesus or a God who agrees to everything and is never anything but nice and friendly is no more than a caricature of real love. Because God loves us, because he wants us to grow into truth, he must necessarily make demands on us and must also correct us.”

The Feminine:

“It is theologically and anthropologically important for woman to be at the center of Christianity. Through Mary, and the other holy women, the feminine element stand at the heart of the Christian religion. And this is not in competition with Christ. To think of Christ and Mary as being in competition means ignoring the essential distinctions between these two figures. . . . That is not a competition, but a more profound kind of intimacy. The Mother and Virgin forms an essential part of the Christian picture of man.”

On Liturgy:

“We do at least need a new liturgical consciousness, to be rid of this spirit of arbitrary fabrication. Things have gone so far that Sunday liturgy groups are cobbling together the liturgy for themselves. . . . The most important thing today is that we should regain respect for the liturgy and for the fact that it is not to be manipulated.”

The Spirit of the Liturgy

The Christian faith can never be separated from the soil of sacred events, from the choice made by God, who wanted to speak to us, to become man, to die and rise again, in a particular place and at a particular time. . . .

The Church does not pray in some kind of mythical omni-temporality. She cannot forsake her roots. She recognizes the true utterance of God precisely in the concreteness of its history, in time and place: to these God ties us, and by these we are all tied together.

The diachronic aspect, praying with the Fathers and the apostles, is part of what we mean by rite, but it also includes a local aspect, extending from Jerusalem to Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople. Rites are not, therefore, just the products of inculturation, however much they may have incorporated elements from different cultures. They are forms of the apostolic Tradition and of its unfolding in the great places of the Tradition.

Unspontaneity is of their essence. In these rites I discover that something is approaching me here that I did not produce myself, that I am entering into something greater than myself, which ultimately derives from divine revelation. This is why the Christian East calls the liturgy the “Divine Liturgy”, expressing thereby the liturgy’s independence from human control.

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance.

The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes - incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy - none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy as the “reasonable sacrifice”.

It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause.

Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.

This action of God, which takes place through human speech, is the real “action” for which all creation is in expectation. The elements of the earth are transubstantiated, pulled, so to speak, from their creaturely anchorage, grasped at the deepest ground of their being, and changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord. The New Heaven and the New Earth are anticipated. The real “action” in the liturgy in which we are all supposed to participate is the action of God himself. This is what is new and distinctive about the Christian liturgy: God himself acts and does what is essential.

The Cross is the approbation of our existence, not in words, but in an act so completely radical that it caused God to become flesh and pierced this flesh to the quick; that, to God, it was worth the death of his incarnate Son. One who is so loved that the other identifies his life with this love and no longer desires to live if he is deprived of it; one who is loved even unto death – such a one knows that he is truly loved. But if God so loves us, then we are loved in truth.

Then love is truth, and truth is love. Then life is worth living. This is the evangelium. This is why, even as the message of the Cross, it is glad tidings for one who believes; the only glad tidings that destroy the ambiguity of all other joys and make them worthy to be joy. Christianity is, by its very nature, joy – the ability to be joyful.

Principles of Catholic Theology

Jesus dies because there are forces hostile to truth; his obedience is fidelity to truth in conflict with the tangled web of untruth. But it is precisely by obeying truth that he obeys both the Father and the Scripture that he interprets by virtue of his immediate relationship to God, that he thereby opens anew to his inmost foundation, filling it with a new reality by his living of its word. His relationship to the fundamental ground of being is a relationship of real union with the fundamental truth – that is, “Sonship”: in this relationship to God, the very letter becomes flesh.

Introduction to Christianity

In Jesus’ life from the Father, in the immediacy and closeness of his association with him in prayer and indeed face to face, he is God’s witness, through whom the intangible has become tangible, the distant has drawn near. And further: he is not simply the witness whose evidence we trust when he tells us what he had seen in an existence which had already made the about-turn from a false concentration on the foreground of life to the depths of the whole truth; he is the presence of the eternal itself in this world

God is Near Us: The Eucharist the Heart of Life

But that means that the Eucharist is far more than just a meal; it has cost a death to provide it, and the majesty of death is present in it. Whenever we hold it, we should be filled with reverence in the face of this mystery, with awe in the face of this mysterious death the becomes a present reality in our midst.

The Christian feast, the Eucharist, plumbs the very depths of death. It is not just a matter of pious discourse and entertainment, of some kind of religious beautification, spreading a pious gloss on the world; it plumbs the very depths of existence, which it call death . . . . what the tradition sums up in the sentence: The Eucharist is a sacrifice, the presentation of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

The Eucharist is not itself the sacrament of reconciliation, but in fact it presupposes that sacrament. It is the sacrament of the reconciled, to which the Lord invites all those who have become one with him; who certainly still remain weak sinners, but yet have give their hand to him and have become part of his family. That is why, from the beginning, the Eucharist has been preceded by a discernment.

Thus he makes his word come true: “I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (Jn 12:32). That is why we do not need to harbor the fear that motivated Luther to protest against the Catholic idea of Mass as sacrifice, that thereby the glory of Christ might be diminished, or that the “sacrifice was not enough and that we ought to, or could, add something to it.” Such mistaken ideas may well have been current, but they have nothing to do with the real meaning of the concept of the sacrificial character of the Mass.

The Church does not invent sins but recognizes the will of God and has to declare it. Of course, the great thing . . . is that upon the Church, which has to declare the will of God in its full magnitude, in its unconditional rigor, so that man should know his true measure, is bestowed as a gift, at the same time, the task of forgiving. “

[6] A tale out of time is like music in mourning: but the stripes and instruction of wisdom are never out of time.

[7] He that teacheth a fool, is like one that glueth a potsherd together. [8] He that telleth a word to him that heareth not, is like one that waketh a man out of a deep sleep.
[9] He speaketh with one that is asleep, who uttereth wisdom to a fool: and in the end of the discourse he saith: Who is this?

***[10] Weep for the dead, for his light hath failed: and weep for the fool, for his understanding faileth.

***[10] For the fool: In the language of the Holy Ghost, he is styled a fool, that turns away from God to follow vanity and sin. And what is said by the wise man against fools is meant of such fools as these.

[11] Weep but a little for the dead, for he is at rest. [12] For the wicked life of a wicked fool is worse than death.

[13] The mourning for the dead is seven days: but for a fool and an ungodly man all the days of their life.

[14] Talk not much with a fool, and go not with him that hath no sense. [Ecclesiasticus 22:14] [Latin]

[15] Keep thyself from him, that thou mayst not have trouble, and thou shalt not be defiled with his sin.

@Celinedesilva:  One poster in a past blog made reference to 63,000 sects.  Whether 38,000 (or your now amended 39,000) really matters very little in the end game.  Even you and Angelo belong to an underground Catholic “sect” which challenges everything post Vatican II including the Novus Ordo Mass.  You can do that, but it’s hypocritical of you also lay out above all the teachings of Benedict XVI and reject the Novus Ordo which he endoreses.  You would thus be a CINO Catholic.  Nancy Pelosi is the same since she also takes Eucharist but rejects many church teachings.  That would mean you are not in “full communion” with the Roman Catholic Church.  In the end, your approach (and Angelo’s) are both Pharisee in nature.  Toeing the mark in legalism is not what Christ taught.  The gospel is not based in legalism.  Moreover, the gospel is based on what is in your heart.

One of the most important passages in the gospel comes from Mark 12 when a Scribe (a legalist) approaches Jesus concerning all these things.  Refer to 12: 28-34—

And Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He.  And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, He said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that asked Jesus any further question.

Whether you remain in your underground Catholic “sect,” or are a Catholic modernist—or be you a member of one of the 39,000 Christian churches, a person is not saved by church *membership.*  There is no doubt many people who attend Christian churches are not committed to Christ.  They are not Christians.  Likewise many Catholics are not fully committed to Christ either.  They also are not Christians.  Sure, they show up for Mass and receive the Eucharist.  Big deal.  If He does not rest in your heart and your life is not committed to His Lordship over your life then all you are doing is the “lukewarm” business of keeping church laws.  Jesus is not impressed.

The end game is this.  He (the Lord) will not ask whether you were Catholic, Protestant (High Church or Low Church) or Christian Evangelical.  Hypocrites exist in all churches including Christian Pastors and Catholic clergy of all ranks who merely mark time.  Being able to recite verbatim all manner of Catholic theology and doctrine as a Final Exam will be as meaningless for the Catholic as will knowing Luther’s 95 Theses or the 5 Points of John Calvin will be for the Christian.  Such things will not matter.  However, He will ask you about His Son—and did you tell others about Him?  His final instructions were that we are to tell others about Himself.  Did Christ Jesus live inside your heart?

OCTOBER 23, 2010
CARDINAL ALFONS STICKLER ON THE CHANGES IN THE MASS AND VATICAN II…

http://missatridentinaemportugal.blogspot.ca/2010/10/cardinal-alfons-stickler-on-changes-in.html

‘I could therefore never understand how Archbishop Bugnini could write, regarding the radical and complete transition from the prescribed Latin to the exclusively vulgar language of worship, that the Council had practically said that the vernacular in the entire Mass was a pastoral necessity (op. cit., pp. 108-121;

I am quoting from the original Italian edition). To the contrary, I can attest to the fact that regarding the wording of the Council Constitution on this question, in the general part (art. 36) as well as in the special regulations for the Sacrifice of the Mass (art. 54) the Council fathers maintained a practically unanimous agreement—above all in the final vote: 2152 votes in favor and only four against.”

“Article 36 speaks about the liturgical language generally, and article 54 of the Mass in particular cases. After a discussion lasting several days, in which arguments for and against were discussed, the Council fathers came to the clear conclusion-wholly in agreement with the Council of Trent-that Latin must be retained as the language of cult in the Latin rite, although exceptional cases were possible and even welcome. We shall return to this point in detail.

Article 116 speaks extensively about Gregorian chant, noting that it has been the classical chant of the Roman Catholic liturgy since the time of Gregory the Great, and as such must be retained. Polyphonic music also deserves attention and cultivation.

The other articles of Chapter VI, on sacred music, speak about appropriate music and singing in the Church and the liturgy, and emphasize splendidly the important, indeed the fundamental role of the pipe organ in the Catholic liturgy.”

@celinedesilva:  All your quotations are nothing but legalism.  Does Jesus care if the Mass or (singing) is in Latin or the language of common men?  No, He does not.  Your hero, Archbishop Bugnini is chief among Pharisees leading you, Angelo and others away from Christ by way of this Satanic legalistic deception.  You have ritual without righteousness.  Satan loves that.  You pay Satan honor without realizing it.

So one more deviate is gone.  Why does Rome wait for them to die before correcting them ?  In the USA we had ‘bernardin’ & his homosexual-agenda, seamless garment garbage.  We have suffered because of him & his many cronies that still infest the USCCB.  Where do you think the pedophile plague originated ?  It will continue until all of his followers are likewise - GONE !  Heretics run Diocese & many Catholic Colleges & Rome is silent.  Finally they are addressing the pagan nuns in the LCWR, after over 4 decades is insolence !

@Grey Bear:  If Catholics could rid themselves of the Archbishop Bugnini’s, Cardinal Law’s, Cardinal Bernadin’s and the do-nothing posturing of the USCCB’s socialist/marxist gospel while Christians would also do away with the nonsense of Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen then we common folk might get somewhere.

CARDINAL ALFONS STICKLER ON THE CHANGES IN THE MASS AND VATICAN II…

Cardinal Stickler writes about deviant Archbishop Bugnini…

READ AGAIN you Ignoramus

Not only have you fools given up their Religion but also your language, resulting in poor or no understanding of what you read AND WRITE.  As for comprehension of what is written…..?????? Much to be desired.

[23] And avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes. [2 Timothy 2:23]

Casting Crowns: It is Cardinal Alfons Strickler, recently deceased if memory serves, who is among Celinedesilva’s heros.  When I first started asking questions of Catholics in church, a woman gave me one of his books - but wasn’t willing to discuss what he wrote, at least in her own words.  That’s one of the reasons why I began to seek out blogs.

On the other hand, Archbishop Bugnini is on the “Official Poop List” of everyone that believes Vatican II was in error, misinterpreted poorly, or straight from the devil, in an effort to destroy the Catholic church, on purpose, while the remnant of traditional PRE- Vat II Catholics fight on.

What amuses me is recently, it was reported that 40+ years after Vatican II, there are boxes and boxes of documents that were never read.  So who knows, the “Trads” may be correct after all; Celine & Cardinal Strickler can do a Happy Dance.

A lament: if only my fellow Christians in the Body of Christ, all of them, would believe so freely in the entirety of the New Testament, as they do the experiences of people such as Padre Pio.  The devil, dematerializing in front of him and a fellow priest?  Pul-eezze.

Are not confessions supposed to be private?  What are TWO priests doing in the confessional?

In advance, forgive me, if I have misinterpreted the story but it sounded to me as if Padre Pio had a difficult and UNrepentent man come to him for a confession.  When Fr. Pio asked him to glorify Jesus and honor Mary, he sort of vaporized.  The first red flag to me would be an UNrepentent person does not go to Confession.  Even I know that.

Prayer to the Sacred Heart for the Church

O most holy Heart of Jesus, shower Thy blessings in abundant measure upon Thy holy Church, upon the Supreme Pontiff, and upon all the clergy; to the just grant perseverance; convert sinners; enlighten unbelievers; bless our relations, friends, and benefactors; assist the dying; deliver the holy souls in purgatory; and extend over all hearts the everlasting empire of Thy love. Amen.

This prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel, originally composed in Latin, was written by Pope Leo XIII in 1886. Between then and 1965, it was recited after every Low Mass at Pope Leo’s order.

In recent years, a number of parishes have begun reciting the prayer once more, and many individual Catholics have kept the practice up. Both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have urged the faithful to pray it daily, and especially after Mass.

Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

This theologically rich prayer was written by Pope Pius XII in 1954 in honor of the 100th anniversary of Pope Pius IX’s promulgation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
Prayer of Pope Pius XII

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.

This litany, approved by Pope St. Pius X (1903-14), shows the growing devotion to Saint Joseph in the 20th century. (Pope John XXIII (1958-63) also had a deep devotion to Saint Joseph, and he composed A Prayer for Workers, which is addressed to Saint Joseph.)

The list of titles applied to Saint Joseph, followed by his saintly attributes, reminds us that the foster father of Jesus is a perfect example of the Christian life. Fathers and families, in particular, should cultivate a devotion to Saint Joseph.

Like all litanies, the Litany of Saint Joseph is designed to be recited communally, but it can be prayed alone. When recited in a group, one person should lead, and everyone else should make the italicized responses. Each response should be recited at the end of each line, until a new response is indicated.

Litany of St. Joseph

Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, have mercy on us. Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, hear us. Christ, graciously hear us.

God the Father of Heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
God, the Holy Ghost,
Holy Trinity, One God, have mercy on us.

Holy Mary, pray for us.
Saint Joseph,
Illustrious Scion of David,
Light of Patriarchs,
Spouse of the Mother of God,
Chaste guardian of the Virgin,
Foster-father of the Son of God,
Watchful defender of Christ,
Head of the Holy Family,
Joseph most just,
Joseph most chaste,
Joseph most prudent,
Joseph most valiant,
Joseph most obedient,
Joseph most faithful,
Mirror of patience,
Lover of poverty,
Model of workmen,
Glory of home life,
Guardian of virgins,
Pillar of families,
Solace of the afflicted,
Hope of the sick,
Patron of the dying,
Terror of demons,
Protector of Holy Church, pray for us.

Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.

V. He made him lord over his house,
R. And the ruler of all his possessions.

Let us pray.

O God, who in Thine ineffable providence didst vouchsafe to choose blessed Joseph to be the spouse of Thy most holy Mother: grant, we beseech Thee, that we may have him for an intercessor in heaven, whom we venerate as our protector on earth. Who livest and reignest world without end. Amen.

“IT IS THE MISSION FOR THE CONGREGATION OF DIVINE WORSHIP AND SACRAMENTS TO WORK TP PROMOTE POPE BENEDICT’S EMPHASIS ON THE TRADITIONAL PRACTICES OF LITURGY, SUCH AS RECEIVING COMMUNION ON THE TONGUE WHILE KNEELING”

Cardinal Llovera. Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments -2009

In 1969 Pope Paul VI, with serious misgivings, published Memoriale Domini and opened the fateful door to communion-in-the-hand. He stated that the traditional way of receiving on the tongue was preferable, and then spelled out the threat to Holy Communion with very specific warnings:

“A change in a matter of such moment, based on a most ancient and venerable tradition, does not merely affect discipline. It carries certain dangers with it which may arise from the new manner of administering Holy Communion: the danger of a loss of reverence for the august sacrament of the altar, of profanation, of adulterating the true doctrine.”

All of the pope’s misgivings have come true. The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Saviour is frequently being treated with disdain and irreverence; communion-in-the-hand has opened the door to trivialization, sacrilege, abuse and indifference. The vast majority of Roman Catholics no longer kneel to receive Him, and a significant percentage of Catholics no longer recognize the Holy Eucharist as the Real Presence.

As Memoriale Domini dictates, Rome firmly respects your right to receive on the tongue and encourages you to do so. No priest in the world has the right to refuse communion in the traditional manner.

www. Communion-In-The-Hand.org

Terah James, Cardinal Alfons Von Stickler by order of Bl. John Paul ll went throughout the world spreading devotion to the Tridentine Mass. He was a man of great holiness, so he is in fact a hero of us Traditionalists. As for Bugnini he was in fact a controversial figure. He was mainly responsible for the creation of the Novus Ordo Missae. To understand him one may wish to read “The Ottaviani Intervention”. It was Cardinal Ottaviani who brought to the attention of Pope Paul Vl the heresies being inserted into the New Missal by Bugnini. Pope Paul Vl intervened and put an end to what Bugnini was attempting to do. Bugnini went as far as calling on the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments to abrogate the Missal of St Pius V. His request was outright denied. Bugnini lost favor with Pope Paul Vl and was exiled to Terhan. So Traditionalists have good reason to have opposed him. Cardinal Burke recently asked that the Prayers at the foot of the Altar be restored, also the secret prayers of the priest to likewise be restored. Undoing what Bugnini done. This is a very important issue.

@Celenedesilva:  A more useful prayer, a more *effective* prayer is one in which you use words of your own heart lifted up to the Lord.  Repetitious prayer wears thinly and ultimately degenerates into a meritorious project of “works.”

@Angelo:  Is the Lord honored *less* by the Novos Ordo Mass and honored *more* by the Latin Mass?  Is He not present at both Masses?  You have forgotten the gospel “Whenever two or more are gathered in my name, I am with you.”  It may come as shock to you, but the Lord is also honored (and present) at the worship services of your “separated bretheren.”  If you reject this, you are calling Jesus a liar.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 13, 2012 10:57 AM (EST):
@Celenedesilva: “...  *effective* prayer…Repetitious prayer wears thinly and ultimately degenerates into a meritorious project of “works.”

As a Roman Catholic,I pray the prayers given by my Holy Mother The Church and in meditation make it my own.

REPETION IS THE MOTHER OF LEARNING.

[8] And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes.
AND THEY RESTED NOT DAY AND NIGHT, SAYING: HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS, AND WHO IS, AND WHO IS TO COME. [Apocalypse (Revelation) 4:8]

[9] And when those living creatures gave glory, and honour, and benediction to him that sitteth on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever; [10] The four and twenty ancients fell down before him that sitteth on the throne, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever, and “CAST THEIR CROWNS” before the throne, saying:

11] Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.

CATHOLIC PRAYER IS REPITITIOUS

LORD, TEACH US TO PRAY

1] And it came to pass, that as he was in a certain place praying, when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him: Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. [Luke 11:1]

[[2] And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
[3] Give us this day our daily bread.
[4] And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

[5] And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight, and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves,

[6] Because a friend of mine is come off his journey to me, and I have not what to set before him. [7] And he from within should answer, and say: Trouble me not, the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

[8] Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise, and give him as many as he needeth.

[9] And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. [10] For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Forgive the spelling error.  Repetitious

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 13, 2012 11:04 AM (EST):
“…You have forgotten the gospel …the Lord is also honored (and present) at the worship services of your “separated bretheren.” If you reject this, you are calling Jesus a liar.”

God is present among them as He is present in all of creation.

ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS CHRIST PRESENT BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY in the the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Most Holy Eucharist.

Casting Crowns, Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is contradicting Himself?

HERASY IS A MORTAL SIN – Heresy is:

•DENYING THE TRUE PRESENCE OF OUR BLESSED LORD IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST
•DENYING THE PRIMACY OF PETER
•DENYING THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON FAITH AND MORALS

Jusus said:

[21] NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH TO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: BUT HE THAT DOTH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN, HE SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

[39] NOW THIS IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHO SENT ME: THAT OF ALL THAT HE HATH GIVEN ME, I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING; BUT SHOULD RAISE IT UP AGAIN IN THE LAST DAY. [John 6:39]

[Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.]

[19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me: because they are thine:

[14] I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world…

[15] I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.

[17] Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. ..[20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [John 17:21]

[26] And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them.

[15] BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, WHO COME TO YOU IN THE CLOTHING OF SHEEP, BUT INWARDLY THEY ARE RAVENING WOLVES. [Matthew 7:15]

[16] By their fruits you shall know them. .. [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

[53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

[54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [John 6:54]

[55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it…67.  After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

THESE ARE THE SEPARATED BRETHEREN WHO WALKED AWAY - tHEY DENY THE TRUE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD = HERETICS WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR; THAT THEY SEE THE LIGHT

65.But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him

@Celendesilva:  I see.  He is MORE present at your church and less present everywhere else.  I was not aware “I am with you” is restricted to a limited basis.  But then (that’s your interpretation).  What percentile of Christ’s presence is left for your separated bretheren since you claim to have the “fullness”—100%.

@Celindesilva:  [”[53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [John 6:54][55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.”]

I am not a Jew, but your interpretation of the gospel is interesting.  How does a Catholic who receives Communion 2,000 times have more life than a Catholic receiving only 600 times or less?  Or do you only need to receive it 1x?

@Celinedesilva:  [“THESE ARE THE SEPARATED BRETHEREN WHO WALKED AWAY - tHEY DENY THE TRUE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD = THESE ARE THE SEPARATED BRETHEREN WHO WALKED AWAY - tHEY DENY THE TRUE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD = HERETICS WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR; THAT THEY SEE THE LIGHT65.But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.”] —Your definition of walking away necessitates being in one location first to move away from.  How can one be a heretic if not first Catholic?   

@Celinedesilva:  [“HERETICS WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR”].  When have you ever prayed for heretics?  Month?  Year?

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 13, 2012 1:43 PM (EST):
@Celinedesilva:  [“HERETICS WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR”].  When have you ever prayed for heretics?  Month?  Year?

[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: [Titus 3:10]

If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican. St. Matthew 18:17

…He who refuses to have the Church for his Mother will not have God for his Father.

When St. Augustine speaks of man’s last end, he hastens to add this counsel to any one who wishes to reach that end: “Their attempt will be useless if they do not submit to the Catholic Church, and humbly obey her, for she alone has been divinely instituted to give light and strength to souls, without which they will necessarily stray from the right path.” Would to God they had listened to the voice of Augustine in the past! And would to God that everyone might hear him today who rends the seamless robe of Christ. and casts himself miserably outside the path of salvation. Pope Pius XI

“She is a garden enclosed, My Sister, My Spouse, a garden enclosed: a fountain sealed up” (Canticles 4:12). These words of Holy Scripture are applied, according to the Fathers, to the Catholic Church, the immaculate spouse of Christ; they distinguish her from infidel or heretical sects, so that men will know whom to follow and whom to avoid in their search for eternal life. Pope Leo XIII

To know whom to avoid is a great means of saving our souls. [...] Thus, the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith by corrupting it, such as heretics, or by renouncing it, such as apostates. St. Thomas Aquinas

Thou shalt not sow thy vinyard with different seeds, lest both the seed that thou hast sown and the fruit of the vinyard be sanctified together. Deuteronomy 22:9

And the good seed are the children of the kingdom; and the cockle are the children of the wicked one. St. Matthew 13:38

With all our strength, therefore, let us guard against receiving Communion from heretics and from giving Communion to them. “Do not give that which is holy to dogs,” the Lord says, “nor cast your pearls before swine.”
St. John Chysostom

We have become cowardly, faint-hearted, and, so often, for some reason or other, we keep silence. We let ourselves be overcome by human respect, and cease to show ourselves as true followers of Our Lord before the world. [...] Why? Because we are cowards! Oh, how we need to renew our faith, to rekindle our hearts in the sublime principles of our holy religion!
St. Frances Xavier Cabrini

WE MUST FIGHT FOR THE FAITH

Give thanks to God that He has made you a child of His Church…
Hear and follow the Sovereign Pontiff who teaches infallibly through the Holy Ghost and the Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth.

Hold fast to Her doctrines, maintain Her cause, defend Her rights.

Live always as becomes a child of God and a member of the true Church of God, so that after this life you may receive Heaven as your inheritance. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost! Amen.

Pope St. Pius X

@Celinedesilvia:  You keep digging a bigger hole for yourself.  The art of copy & paste we know you can do with writings of popes long past.  You seem unable to speak in your own words.  Rather, you and your secret underground Catholic “sect” remain in rebellion against the church fathers and of Peter’s Chair.  If you are to pray for heretics, why do you not do so?  There is still time for you to repent, say the Divine Mercies and register for RCIA and come home to the Catholic church at next Easter Vigil.

Casting Crowns, “satanic legalistic deception”, If we Traditionalists have been deceived it was not by satan. It was by Jesus Christ who said, “I have not come to destroy the law, but to fufill it”, “Not one iota of the law shall be done away with.”, “As for the teachers of the law, obey them.”. As for the Mass of St. Pius V and the Novus Ordo Missae they are both the same Divine action of Jesus. But today the Mass of St. Pius V, God is much more pleased by those who attend. As they are there to worship God in his Divine act, of God offering himself to God, Calvary repeated at each Holy Mass. The insult to God in the Novus Ordo is not in the Mass itself it is in the peoples attitude of its all about us and has nothing to do with God. You have now entered into the horror of Blasphemy. You ask Celinedesilva about her prayers for you, you have overstepped the limits, when and how she prays for heretics is none of our business. Jesus says, “Go to your room, shut the door and pray to God in silence, so as only God can hear you.” The room and the door is within our souls.

Casting Crowns - if a person has the Holy Spirit ALIVE AND LIVING in ones heart, one is “sealed” by Him (as Cain was “sealed”, after he killed Abel)& protected by God Himself, as we walk through life.

Protected by God Himself, we grow in faith in Him, daily; we associate with each other (the Body of Christ, gathering on Sundays) to share the Lord’s Supper (the Mass).  When we receive Communion, we’re IN Communion with fellow believers in Jesus, others that have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and are led by Him.  We are “IN Communion” with the saints that have lived throughout the ages, and that have gone to Heaven (that too, is in our Catholic Mass).

If we are not “sealed” or “believers” in Jesus, no amount of receiving Holy Communion can cause us to have faith.  Like the phrase, “You are, what you eat”, sealed believers become more and more like Jesus in our actions and in our behaviors, because we are quickened to THINK about Jesus.  When we receive Communion (the precious Body and Blood of Jesus, per John Chapter 6) ... and when we associate and learn from one another (do not forsake the gathering of the assembly), our faith grows.

I don’t think “Trads” are outside of the Body of Christ.  I think the people that began that movement, and are held up as heros, may have placed too high a value on form rather than purpose.

Form is “liturgical” style.  Purpose is “Why do we worship God?”  To confuse form with purpose is why the Old Testament AND the New Testament points out, “These people honor me with their lips, but their HEARTS are far from me.”

It’s what the Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ day held so dear: FORM ONLY.  They didn’t even recognize Jesus.  Purpose was over-looked.  Works-based people, to this day, overlook Jesus.  It’s trying to achieve their own “righteousness”, instead of relying and trusting in God’s GRACE.

But reading the comments on THIS blog, the Trads and the non-Trads seem to have hearts that are on fire for Jesus.  Pleasing Jesus and getting to know Him more and more, understanding WHY we worship and give thanks, at Mass, is of utmost importance to everyone of us writing comments on this blog.  This has to be pleasing to God, even if we sometimes make a mess of it. Our hearts are in the right place. We’re anxious to know Him more. It’s written, “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God & His righteousness…” and “Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.”  It is knowledge of Him - it is understanding WHY we worship.

@Angleo:  What is this —a WWF tag team match with you and Celinedesilva?
You respond because she can only copy & paste from Internet sites?  Now you say: [“Calvary repeated at each Holy Mass.”]  Why does Calvary need to be repeated when Jesus (on Calvary) already said:  “It is finished.”

We are called upon to pray for everyone.  For believers that are undergoing testing, or trials.  For non-believers, because God wants everyone to be saved, and to come to the knowlege of Jesus and the Good News He came to spread.  For heretics, there were heretics mentioned by Paul, in his letters.  For apostates: those that knew the truth, and rejected it.

For our national leaders, so we can live in peace, under God’s Almighty Hand of Protection, able to live in obedience to His Sovereign and holy Will, enjoying the religious liberties that was the foundation of our country.

For our loved ones and for ourselves, so that we grow in faith and trust in Jesus, daily, more and more.

@Angelo:  If you are called to pray for heretics, why are they not included in the Prayers of the Faithful at Mass?

Casting Crowns: Calvary is not “repeated” at every Mass.  Angelo may have inadvertantly used a misleading word, perhaps being short on time.

In Catholic liturgies, during *each and every Eucharistic Prayer*, the priest specifically calls what is happening a “Memorial”.  This is based on Jesus’ own words, “Do this in memory of Me.”

Calvary is not repeated.  There was one sacrifice, that is now over, and the Father is satisfied with Jesus willingly giving His perfect Life on our behalf, giving us access to the Father.  But our Mass is a memorial OF Calvary, & we meet, gratefully worshipping Jesus, for what He did for us.

Casting Crowns: Get Real.  We often DO pray for heretics at Mass. At least in our church.  When Ted Kennedy died, from the altar, the lector asked us to pray for his soul.  Too bad no one approached Kennedy during his life, setting him straight before he met with Jesus, Person to person.

Casting Crowns, Celinedesilva does not just copy and paste. She reads, meditates, prays and then presents us with the truth as taught by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Unlike you, she does not invent her own doctrines as she goes along. The teaching of the Church is that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is calvary reenacted. Being at Mass or going back 2000 years and standing at the foot of the Cross with MARY the WOMAN, is the IDENTICAL same thing. Each Mass is a Divine Act, not a human act. Thats what makes the Mass so Holy. You have shown complete lack of knowing what the Church officialy teaches for our salvation. Learn this truth and you will have a better understanding of the minds of Traditionalists. As for praying for heretics in the prayers of the faithful, I have been at Mass’s where the priest does in fact pray for heretics. One of the best prayers for heretics is the prayer Our Lady of Fatima called on us to pray at the end of each Mystery of the Rosary. “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, and save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy Mercy.”

@Angelo, you and Terah James clearly have different views on the Catholic Mass.  You say Calvary is reenacted while Terah says it is only a memorial.  Which of you is correct?

Casting Crowns, Why don’t you do some research, not letting pride stand in the way, Let us know about the great treasure of the Mass you have discovered.

@Terah James:  [“When Ted Kennedy died, from the altar, the lector asked us to pray for his soul.”]  Why did you wait for him to die?  There’s still time to pray for Nancy Pelosi and Kathleen Sebelius while they are alive.

@Angelo, you didn’t answer who is correct re Catholic Mass, you or Terah James?

Casting Crowns, If I told you, would you actualy believe a Roman Catholic? Come now, lets get real. Thats why I put the burden on you to find out what the Catholic Church teaches on the nature of the Mass itself. I will be waiting for the results of your research.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 13, 2012 3:59 PM (EST):
“@Celinedesilvia: You keep digging a bigger hole for yourself. The art of copy & paste we know you can do with writings of popes long past. You seem unable to speak in your own words. Rather, you and your secret underground Catholic “sect” remain in rebellion against the church fathers and of Peter’s Chair. If you are to pray for heretics, why do you not do so? There is still time for you to repent, say the Divine Mercies and register for RCIA and come home to the Catholic church at next Easter Vigil.”

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID NOT BEGIN WITH VATICAN II.
All Catholics are called to love and obey ALL THE POPES FROM ST. PETER TO THE PRESENT POPE BENEDICT XVI

Dear Casting Crowns,

I pity your poor comprehension of the English language. It’s very much like your understanding of the Catholic Faith.

Through the great mercy of God, I have behind me, 7, yes, seven years of the study of Roman Catholic Theology from an authentic Catholic Institution. Deo Gratias. I teach Candidates preparing for the Sacrament of Confirmation.  Most of the parents sit in on my classes.  I see they know nothing about the Faith.  They are Catholic in name only.  They are now learning and they hunger for the truth. I also teach adults preparing to come into the Catholic Church.  That is RCIA.

God has given me many gifts and talents for which I am grateful and take no credit.  I am creative and more than capable of writing sense. Many a time has God used me as His little instrument (as we are all called to be) to teach, convert, and inspire both young and old with zeal and a love of Truth Who is God.

After all, I am a daughter of the Church I love with all my heart.  However, when it comes to things Catholic, I choose to use the Treasure of the Knowledge, Wisdom and Teaching of my Holy Mother the Catholic Church. 

I use the Tradition and Teaching Magisterium of the Church Instituted by our Saviour Jesus Christ.  The same Tradition and Magisterium passed down from the Apostles, including Peter our First Pope and ALL HIS SUCCESSORS, right up to our beloved Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.  Also included are the Church Fathers, Doctors and Saints, who I studied extensively through those seven years and still continue to study.

This hornet’s nest was stirred only because I quoted from Holy Scripture, the Popes and Church Fathers.  It’s sad you chose not to, or couldn’t recognize them. You accuse me of “…rebellion against the church fathers and of Peter’s Chair”

READ AGAIN, READ SLOWLY AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND.

Before spewing such venom, read slowly.  Read again.  Try to understand what you are reading and then try not to make a fool of yourself which you have been doing all along. 

I do pray daily for heretics, schismatics, infidels, atheists, agnostics and the enemies of the Catholic Church.  I also pray for all those in the embrace of Mother Church that God protect them from the evil heresies and influences of our modern age. Pray for priests as St. Teresa of Avila instructed her nuns to do.  I shall pray for you too and I hope you will pray for me.

PRAYER FOR THE CONVERSION OF HERETICS AND SCHISMATICS

Let us pray also, for heretics and schismatics, that our Lord and God may deliver them from all their errors, and vouchsafe to recall them to their holy Mother, the Catholic and Apostolic Church. Almighty, eternal God, Who dost save all, and willest not that any should perish, look upon the souls deceived by diabolical fraud, that, abandoning all heretical depravity, the hearts of the erring may regain sanity and return to the unity of truth. Through our Lord. R. Amen.

  PRAYER FOR THE CONVERSION OF INFIDELS

O eternal God, the Creator of all things, remember the infidel peoples whom Thou hast created in Thine own image and likeness. Lord, behold how, to Thy dishonour, hell is being filled with these souls. Bear in mind that Thy Son Jesus suffered a most cruel death for their salvation. Lord, do not permit that Thy Son be further despised by these infidels, but be appeased by the prayers of Thy saints and the Church, the Spouse of Thy most holy Son. Remember Thy mercy, and blot out their idolatries and infidelities. May these peoples be ignorant no longer of Him Who is our salvation, life, and resurrection, through whom we have been saved and liberated. To Him let there be glory throughout all ages. Amen
(Saint Francis Xavier)

ANGELO IS RIGHT

The Mass as a RE-PRESENTATION of the Crucifixion:

The Mass as the Central Act of Worship in the Catholic Church:

Catholics worship God in a variety of ways, but the chief act of corporate or communal worship is the Liturgy of the Eucharist. In the Eastern churches, Catholic and Orthodox, this is known as the Divine Liturgy; in the West, it is known as the Mass, an English word derived from the Latin text of the priest’s dismissal of the congregation at the end of the liturgy (“Ite, missa est.”). Throughout the centuries, the liturgy of the Church has taken a variety of regional and historical forms, but one thing has remained constant: The Mass has always been the central form of Catholic worship.

The Mass: An Ancient Practice:

As far back as the Acts of the Apostles and Saint Paul’s epistles, we find descriptions of the Christian community gathering to celebrate the Lord’s Supper, the Eucharist. In the catacombs in Rome, the tombs of martyrs were used as altars for the celebration of the earliest forms of the Mass, making the tie between the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, its re-presentation in the Mass, and the strengthening of the faith of Christians explicit.

The Mass as “Unbloody Sacrifice”:

Very early on, the Church saw the Mass as a mystical reality in which the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is renewed. Responding to Protestant sects who denied that the Eucharist is anything more than a memorial, the Council of Trent (1545-63) declared that “The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner” in the Mass.

This does not mean, as some critics of Catholicism claim, that the Church teaches that, in the Mass, we sacrifice Christ again. Rather, the original sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is presented to us once more.

The Mass as a RE-PRESENTATION of the Crucifixion:

This re-presentation, as Fr. John Hardon notes in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary, “means that because Christ is really present in his humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father.” This understanding of the Mass hinges on the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. When the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, Christ is truly present on the altar. If the bread and wine remained merely symbols, the Mass could still be a memorial of the Last Supper, but not a re-presentation of the Crucifixion

.
The Mass as Memorial and Sacred Banquet:

While the Mass is more than a memorial, it is still a memorial as well as a sacrifice. The Mass is the Church’s way of fulfilling Christ’s command, at the Last Supper, to “Do this in remembrance of Me.” As a memorial of the Last Supper, the Mass is also a sacred banquet, in which the faithful participate both through their presence and their role in the liturgy and through the reception of Holy Communion, the Body and Blood of Christ.
While it is not necessary to receive Communion in order to fulfill our Sunday obligation, the Church recommends frequent reception (along with sacramental Confession).

The Mass as an Application of the Merits of Christ:

“Christ,” Father Hardon writes, “won for the world all the graces it needs for salvation and sanctification.” In other words, in His Sacrifice on the Cross, Christ reversed Adam’s sin. In order for us to see the effects of that reversal, however, we must accept Christ’s offer of salvation and grow in sanctification. Our participation in the Mass, and our frequent reception of Holy Communion, brings us the grace that Christ merited for the world through His unselfish Sacrifice on the Cross.

The above is by
The Catholic Mass
By Scott P. Richert, About.com Guide
http://catholicism.about.com/od/worship/p/The_Mass.htm

Who ever said, “I am blessed to be able to sing His Praises through the beautiful Gregorian and other Traditional Chants of the Church.
All this is slowly but surely coming back.” 

The choirs of Holy Mother the Church have never stopped singing these traditional songs.  Also, the Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel has never been interrupted.  Respectfully, but with certainty, you’re in the wrong church if it has been deceitfully removed.  RUN to the nearest exit!

Hi Angelo!!  I got invited in.  Angelo and I are old pals from an SSPX column.

POPE SAINT PIUS V’s encyclical, QUO PRIMUM, was promulgated in 1570 on how the Mass is to be said in perpetuity.  Why does Scott P. Richert avoid this Pontiff’s pronounement about the Mass?

Joe, My good friend welcome to this thread. Everbody, Joe has a great deal to offer, he has a great love for Holy Mother the Church. Joe and I agreed and disagreed on many things, it was a true discussion on the Church today. As for “Quo Primum” I at one time dismissed it because liberals used the argument that one Pope cannot bind another. But that is exactly what the Popes since St. Peter have been doing for 2000 years. So their argument holds no water. “Quo Primum” is something the Holy Father must clarify for us, as it is part of the Tradition of the Church that cannot be ignored.

Casting Crowns, I think the best way I could think of describing the true nature of the Mass is this. The Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, it is not a human act but a Divine Act. Pope Paul Vl said, “The priest is not the proprietor of the Mass, The people are not the proprietors of the Mass, Jesus is the Proprietor of the Mass.” Many Saints had visions of what happens at Mass. One of these visions was given to a man who scoffed at the Mass and would laugh at how the priest would walk from one side of the Altar to the other, he found it rediculous. Until one day at Mass he was given a vision. He described it, “At a certain point at Mass the priest completely dissapeared, and there stood Jesus offering the Mass, exactly as the priest would do. There were many Angels who were in the Sanctuary and they all lay prostrate in adoration. The whole Santuary was illumined by a powerful light, a light so bright, but it did not hurt my eyes. When this vision ended I once again saw the priest at the “Ite Missa Est”. What he saw was the true nature of the Mass as the Church teaches it. A Divine act, God offering himself to God for our salvation. This man realized that at each Mass it is in fact Calvary repeated in a literal actual manner, but in an unbloody manner. There is a grand history in the Church of such Visions of the Mass. One of the most important was the vision of the Mass given to Sister Lucia in Tuy Spain.

Thank, Angelo.  I thought the following was a good quote applicable for this time:

REMINDER OF CERTAIN TRUTHS

    “..... We are right in the middle of a neo-modernist
crisis.  By this I mean that we are living in an age when to quote the
words of St. Pius X, the number of those “men speaking perverse things”
(Acts XX, 30), “vain talkers and seducers” (Tit. I, 10) “erring and
driving into error” (2 Tim. III, 13)[3], has notably increased.  “By
arts entirely new and full of deceit, (they) are striving to destroy the
vital energy of the Church and as far as in them lies the possibility
utterly to subvert the Kingdom of Christ.”
http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/novalid.txt

Joe, Yes, modernism has taken it toll on the Church. And they are’nt finished yet. One thing though, they thought Traditional Catholics could be silenced forever, now they know different. I have seen that since October 1984 when Bl. John Paul ll first gave the Indult for the celebration of the Mass of St. Pius V, it was only the beggining of what we have today, namely “Summorum Pontificum”. The only problem is that the aging hippies are still blocking it, but they will not prevail. 1984 was when Bl. John Paul ll gladly saw the Traditionalist movement explode in the Church. A movement that has grown and continues to grow. Pope Benedict XVl likewise is much pleased at the revival of true Catholocism.

Celinedesilva/Angelo - I don’t understand why in each of the four (or five, I can’t remember) Eucharistic Prayers, right after the Mystery of Faith, the priest reads that we are celebrating a “memorial”.

Why does it not say we are celebrating a “re-presentation”?  There is a difference, and it’s an important point.  Do you see what I mean?

THE HIDDEN TREASURE OF THE MASS

by St. Leonard-Port Maurice
Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, 1890

In the world you will have affliction. But take courage,
I have overcome the world.—JOHN 16:33

THE THREE EXCELLENCIES OF MASS, PART 1

I. It requires great patience to endure the language of careless livers, breathing atheism itself, and ruinous to devotion; as for instance, “A Mass more or less counts for little.”…  ” He who talks in this way lets it be perceived that he has little or no esteem for the thrice-holy sacrifice af the Mass. That sacrifice is the sun of Christianity, the soul of faith, the centre of the Catholic religion, wherein are beheld all her rites, all her ceremonies, and all her Sacraments; in fine, it is the compendium of all the good and beautiful to be found in the Church of God. Wherefore, O ye who now read my words, ponder well how great are the matters to be spoken of in these instructions.

II.  ….The sole sacrifice which we have in our holy religion, that is to say, Holy Mass, is a sacrifice, holy, perfect, in every point complete, with which each one of the faithful nobly honors God, protesting at one and the same time his own nothingness and the supreme dominion which God hath over him; a sacrifice called, therefore, by David, sacrificium justitiae, “the sacrifice of justice” (Ps. iv. 5); both because it contains the Just One Himself, and the Saint of Saints, or rather justice and holiness themselves, and because it sanctifies souls by the infusion of grace and the affluence of gifts which it confers. Being, then, a sacrifice so holy -a sacrifice the most venerable and the most excellent of all—in order that you may form a due conception of so great a treasure, we shall here explain, in a manner quite succinct, some of its Divine excellencies. To express them all were not a work to which our poor faculties could attain.

III. The principal excellence of the most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass consists in being essentially, and in the very highest degree, identical with that which was offered on the Cross of Calvary: with this sole difference, that the Sacrifice on the Cross was bloody, and made once for all, and did on that one occasion satisfy fully for all the sins of the world; while the Sacrifice of the Altar is an unbloody sacrifice, which can be repeated an infinite number of times, and was instituted in order to apply in detail that universal ransom which Jesus paid for us on Calvary. So that the bloody Sacrifice was the instrument of redemption; the unbloody is that which puts us in possession: the one threw open the treasury of the merits of Christ Our Lord; the other affords the practical use of that treasury. And, therefore, observe that in Mass there is made not a mere representation, nor a simple commemoration of the Passion and Death of the Redeemer, but there is performed, in a certain true sense, the selfsame most holy act which was performed on Calvary. It may be said, with all truth, that in every Mass Our Redeemer returns mystically to die for us, without really dying, at one and the same time really alive and as it were slain——-vidi Agnum stantem tamquam occisum, “I saw a Lamb standing as it were slain” (Apoc. v. 6).

On the anniversary day of the holy Nativity there is represented by the
Church the birth of the Lord, but Our Lord is not then born. On the day of the Ascension and on the day of Pentecost, there are shadowed forth the ascent of the Lord to Heaven, and the coming of the Holy Spirit down to the earth; yet it is by no means true that, as each of these days comes round, the Lord again ascends to Heaven, or the Holy Spirit visibly descends to earth. But the same cannot be said of the mystery of Holy Mass, for in it there is made no simple representation of a bygone event, but the selfsame Sacrifice is unbloodily made which, with the shedding of Blood, was made upon the Cross. That same Body, that same Blood, that same Jesus Who then offered Himself upon Calvary, now offers Himself in the Holy Mass. Opus, says the Church, opus nostrae redemptionis exercetur (Orat. s. in Mis. Dom. 9, post Pent). Yes; exercetur; in Mass there is effected, there is continuously practised, that same Sacrifice which was made upon the Cross. Oh, awful, solemn, and stupendous work!

Now, tell me whether, when you enter church to hear Mass, you thoroughly well consider that you are going up as it were to Calvary, to be present at the death of the Redeemer. If so, would you go with behavior so unsubdued, with dress so flaunting? If the Magdalene had gone to Calvary, to the foot of the Cross, all dressed out, perfumed, and adorned, as when she associated with her lovers, what would have been said of her? What, then, shall be said of you who go to holy Mass as if you were going to a ball? But what shall be said if you profane those functions of most dread sanctity with nods and becks, with tattle, with laughter, with the petty attentions of courtship, or with graver sacrileges of thought, word, or deed? Wickedness is hideous at any time, and in any place; but sins committed during the time of Mass, and before the altar, draw down after them the curse of God. Maledictus homo qui tacit opus Domini fraudulenter (Jer. xlviii. 10). Think seriously upon this, while I proceed to disclose to you yet other marvels and glories of this all-precious treasure.

IV. It seems to me impossible for a religious function to possess a prerogative more excellent than this of the Holy Sacrifice of Mass, that it is no mere copy, but one original with the Sacrifice of the Cross. Still further is its eminence enhanced by having for its priest none else than God made man. In so great a sacrifice three things attract consideration: the priest who offers, the Victim offered, and the majesty of Him to Whom the offering is made. Now observe the marvellous grandeur of Holy Mass, in virtue of each of these three considerations. The Priest Who offers is the Man-God Christ Jesus; the Victim is the Life of God; nor is it offered to any other than unto God. Rekindle, then, your faith, and recognize the true celebrant to be not so much the human priest as the adorable person of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the primary offerer, not only because He has instituted this Holy Sacrifice, and has given to it all its efficacy through His merits, but also because in each Mass He Himself deigns for our good to, transubstantiate the bread and wine into His most Holy Body and into His most Precious Blood. Behold, then, the chiefest privilege of Holy Mass, to have for priest God made man; and when you see the celebrant at the altar, know that his highest dignity consists in being the minister of that invisible and eternal Priest, Our Redeemer Himself. Hence it results that the sacrifice itself does not cease to be agreeable to God, although the priest who celebrates may be wicked and sacrilegious, seeing that the principal offerer is Christ Our Lord, and the priest is His mere minister.

In the same way, anyone who gives alms by the hand of a servant is called in all truth the giver; and even though his servant may be wicked and infamous, yet if the master be good, the alms do not cease to be praiseworthy and holy. Blessed, then, be God, Who hath bestowed on us a holy, a most holy Priest, Who offers to the Eternal Father this Divine Sacrifice, not only in every place (the holy faith being now everywhere diffused), but every day, and even every hour; since the sun is rising to others, while to us it sets. At every hour, then, in various parts of the world, this most perfectly holy Priest offers to the Father His Blood, His Soul, and His whole self for us: and all this He does as many times as there are Masses celebrated in the whole world. O boundless treasure! O mine of inestimable stores thus possessed by us in the Church of God! O happy we if we could but assist at all these Masses! What a store of reward would be thus acquired! What a heaping up of graces in this life, what a fund of glory in the other, would be the fruit of so loving an attendance!

V. But what is implied in this word “attendance?” Those who hear Mass not only perform the office of attendants, but likewise of offerers, having themselves a right to the title of priests. Fecisti nos Deo nostro regnum et sacerdotes (Apoc. v. 10). The celebrating priest is, as it were, the public minister of the Church in general; he is the intermediary between all the faithful, particularly those who assist at Mass, and the invisible Priest, Who is Christ; and, together with Christ, he offers to the Eternal Father, both in behalf of all the rest and of himself, the great price of human redemption. But he is not alone in this so holy function, since all those who assist at Mass concur with him in offering the sacrifice; and, therefore, the priest turns round to the people and says, Orate fratres ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium acceptabile fiat——-“Pray, O my brethren, that mine and your sacrifice may be acceptable to God;” in order that the faithful may understand that, while he indeed acts the part of principal minister, all those who are present make the great offering together with him. So that when you assist at Holy Mass, you perform, after a certain manner, the office of priest. What say you, then? Will you ever dare, from this time forward, to be at Mass sitting, prating, looking here and there, perhaps even sleeping, or content yourselves with reciting some vocal prayers, without at all taking to heart the tremendous office of priest which you are exercising? Ah me! I cannot restrain myself from exclaiming, O dull and incapable world, that understandest nothing of mysteries so sublime! How is it possible that anyone should remain before the altar with a mind distracted and a heart dissipated at a time when the holy Angels stand there trembling and astonished at the contemplation of a work so stupendous?.....

http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/hidden-treasure1a.htm

THE HIDDEN TREASURE OF THE MASS

by St. Leonard-Port Maurice
Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, 1890

In the world you will have affliction. But take courage,
I have overcome the world.—JOHN 16:33

THE THREE EXCELLENCIES OF MASS, PART 1

I. It requires great patience to endure the language of careless livers, breathing atheism itself, and ruinous to devotion; as for instance, “A Mass more or less counts for little.”…  ” He who talks in this way lets it be perceived that he has little or no esteem for the thrice-holy sacrifice af the Mass. That sacrifice is the sun of Christianity, the soul of faith, the centre of the Catholic religion, wherein are beheld all her rites, all her ceremonies, and all her Sacraments; in fine, it is the compendium of all the good and beautiful to be found in the Church of God. Wherefore, O ye who now read my words, ponder well how great are the matters to be spoken of in these instructions.

….The sole sacrifice which we have in our holy religion, that is to say, Holy Mass, is a sacrifice, holy, perfect, in every point complete, with which each one of the faithful nobly honors God, protesting at one and the same time his own nothingness and the supreme dominion which God hath over him; a sacrifice called, therefore, by David, sacrificium justitiae, “the sacrifice of justice” (Ps. iv. 5); both because it contains the Just One Himself, and the Saint of Saints, or rather justice and holiness themselves, and because it sanctifies souls by the infusion of grace and the affluence of gifts which it confers. Being, then, a sacrifice so holy -a sacrifice the most venerable and the most excellent of all—in order that you may form a due conception of so great a treasure, we shall here explain, in a manner quite succinct, some of its Divine excellencies. To express them all were not a work to which our poor faculties could attain.

III. The principal excellence of the most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass consists in being essentially, and in the very highest degree, identical with that which was offered on the Cross of Calvary: with this sole difference, that the Sacrifice on the Cross was bloody, and made once for all, and did on that one occasion satisfy fully for all the sins of the world; while the Sacrifice of the Altar is an unbloody sacrifice, which can be repeated an infinite number of times, and was instituted in order to apply in detail that universal ransom which Jesus paid for us on Calvary. So that the bloody Sacrifice was the instrument of redemption; the unbloody is that which puts us in possession: the one threw open the treasury of the merits of Christ Our Lord; the other affords the practical use of that treasury. And, therefore, observe that in Mass there is made not a mere representation, nor a simple commemoration of the Passion and Death of the Redeemer, but there is performed, in a certain true sense, the selfsame most holy act which was performed on Calvary. It may be said, with all truth, that in every Mass Our Redeemer returns mystically to die for us, without really dying, at one and the same time really alive and as it were slain——-vidi Agnum stantem tamquam occisum, “I saw a Lamb standing as it were slain” (Apoc. v. 6).

On the anniversary day of the holy Nativity there is represented by the Church the birth of the Lord, but Our Lord is not then born. On the day of the Ascension and on the day of Pentecost, there are shadowed forth the ascent of the Lord to Heaven, and the coming of the Holy Spirit down to the earth; yet it is by no means true that, as each of these days comes round, the Lord again ascends to Heaven, or the Holy Spirit visibly descends to earth. But the same cannot be said of the mystery of Holy Mass, for in it there is made no simple representation of a bygone event, but the selfsame Sacrifice is unbloodily made which, with the shedding of Blood, was made upon the Cross. That same Body, that same Blood, that same Jesus Who then offered Himself upon Calvary, now offers Himself in the Holy Mass. Opus, says the Church, opus nostrae redemptionis exercetur (Orat. s. in Mis. Dom. 9, post Pent). Yes; exercetur; in Mass there is effected, there is continuously practised, that same Sacrifice which was made upon the Cross. Oh, awful, solemn, and stupendous work!

Now, tell me whether, when you enter church to hear Mass, you thoroughly well consider that you are going up as it were to Calvary, to be present at the death of the Redeemer. If so, would you go with behavior so unsubdued, with dress so flaunting? If the Magdalene had gone to Calvary, to the foot of the Cross, all dressed out, perfumed, and adorned, as when she associated with her lovers, what would have been said of her? What, then, shall be said of you who go to holy Mass as if you were going to a ball? But what shall be said if you profane those functions of most dread sanctity with nods and becks, with tattle, with laughter, with the petty attentions of courtship, or with graver sacrileges of thought, word, or deed? Wickedness is hideous at any time, and in any place; but sins committed during the time of Mass, and before the altar, draw down after them the curse of God. Maledictus homo qui tacit opus Domini fraudulenter (Jer. xlviii. 10). Think seriously upon this, while I proceed to disclose to you yet other marvels and glories of this all-precious treasure.

Contd…

Contd…

IV. It seems to me impossible for a religious function to possess a prerogative more excellent than this of the Holy Sacrifice of Mass, that it is no mere copy, but one original with the Sacrifice of the Cross.

Still further is its eminence enhanced by having for its priest none else than God made man. In so great a sacrifice three things attract consideration: the priest who offers, the Victim offered, and the majesty of Him to Whom the offering is made. Now observe the marvellous grandeur of Holy Mass, in virtue of each of these three considerations. The Priest Who offers is the Man-God Christ Jesus; the Victim is the Life of God; nor is it offered to any other than unto God.

Rekindle, then, your faith, and recognize the true celebrant to be not so much the human priest as the adorable person of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the primary offerer, not only because He has instituted this Holy Sacrifice, and has given to it all its efficacy through His merits, but also because in each Mass He Himself deigns for our good to, transubstantiate the bread and wine into His most Holy Body and into His most Precious Blood. Behold, then, the chiefest privilege of Holy Mass, to have for priest God made man; and when you see the celebrant at the altar, know that his highest dignity consists in being the minister of that invisible and eternal Priest, Our Redeemer Himself. Hence it results that the sacrifice itself does not cease to be agreeable to God, although the priest who celebrates may be wicked and sacrilegious, seeing that the principal offerer is Christ Our Lord, and the priest is His mere minister.

In the same way, anyone who gives alms by the hand of a servant is called in all truth the giver; and even though his servant may be wicked and infamous, yet if the master be good, the alms do not cease to be praiseworthy and holy. Blessed, then, be God, Who hath bestowed on us a holy, a most holy Priest, Who offers to the Eternal Father this Divine Sacrifice, not only in every place (the holy faith being now everywhere diffused), but every day, and even every hour; since the sun is rising to others, while to us it sets. At every hour, then, in various parts of the world, this most perfectly holy Priest offers to the Father His Blood, His Soul, and His whole self for us: and all this He does as many times as there are Masses celebrated in the whole world. O boundless treasure! O mine of inestimable stores thus possessed by us in the Church of God! O happy we if we could but assist at all these Masses! What a store of reward would be thus acquired! What a heaping up of graces in this life, what a fund of glory in the other, would be the fruit of so loving an attendance!

V. But what is implied in this word “attendance?” Those who hear Mass not only perform the office of attendants, but likewise of offerers, having themselves a right to the title of priests. Fecisti nos Deo nostro regnum et sacerdotes (Apoc. v. 10). The celebrating priest is, as it were, the public minister of the Church in general; he is the intermediary between all the faithful, particularly those who assist at Mass, and the invisible Priest, Who is Christ; and, together with Christ, he offers to the Eternal Father, both in behalf of all the rest and of himself, the great price of human redemption. But he is not alone in this so holy function, since all those who assist at Mass concur with him in offering the sacrifice; and, therefore, the priest turns round to the people and says, Orate fratres ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium acceptabile fiat——-“Pray, O my brethren, that mine and your sacrifice may be acceptable to God;” in order that the faithful may understand that, while he indeed acts the part of principal minister, all those who are present make the great offering together with him. So that when you assist at Holy Mass, you perform, after a certain manner, the office of priest. What say you, then? Will you ever dare, from this time forward, to be at Mass sitting, prating, looking here and there, perhaps even sleeping, or content yourselves with reciting some vocal prayers, without at all taking to heart the tremendous office of priest which you are exercising? Ah me! I cannot restrain myself from exclaiming, O dull and incapable world, that understandest nothing of mysteries so sublime! How is it possible that anyone should remain before the altar with a mind distracted and a heart dissipated at a time when the holy Angels stand there trembling and astonished at the contemplation of a work so stupendous?.....

http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/hidden-treasure1a.htm

contd…

VI. You are surprised, perhaps, to hear me speak of the Mass as a stupendous work. But what tongue, human or angelic, may ever describe a power so immeasurable as that exercised by the simplest priest in Mass?

And who could ever have imagined that the voice of man, which by nature hath not the power even to raise a straw from the ground, should obtain through grace a power so stupendous as to bring from Heaven to earth the Son of God? It is a greater power than that which would be required to change the place of mountains, to dry up seas, and to turn round the heavens; it even emulates, in a certain manner, that first fiat with which God brought all things out of nothing, and in some sort would seem to surpass that other fiat with which the sweet Virgin drew down into her bosom the Eternal Word. She did nothing else than supply matter for the body of Christ——-made indeed from her and her most pure blood, but not by her, in the sense of her own potential act. But altogether different, and most marvellous, is the sacramental manner in which the voice of the priest, operating as the instrument of Christ, reproduces Him, and does so as often as he consecrates. The Blessed Giovanni Buono made this truth (S. Ant. 3 p. hist. tit. 24, c. 13) in some sort comprehensible to a hermit, his companion, who was unable to imagine how the words of a priest could be allowed such power as to change the substance of bread into the Body of Jesus Christ, and the substance of wine into His Blood, and who, unhappily, had consented to the devilish suggestions of doubt.

The good servant of God, perceiving this man’s error, conducted him to a fountain, took thence a cup of water, and gave it him to drink. He, when he had drunk of it, declared that during his whole life he had never tasted a wine so pleasant. Then Giovanni Buono said, “Do not you now feel, my dear brother, the marvellous truth? If, through means of me, a miserable man, water is changed into wine by Divine power, how much more ought you to believe that, through means of the words of God——-for the priest only uses the words instituted for the purpose by God Himself——-the bread and wine are converted into the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ? Who shall dare to assign limits to the omnipotence of God?” This so effectually enlightened the hermit that, banishing every doubt from his mind, he did great penance for his sin.

Let us have but a little faith, a little living faith, and we shall confess that the mighty and admirable things contained in this adorable sacrifice are without number; nor will it then seem too strange to us to behold the marvel repeated continually——-the thrice-holy humanity of Jesus multiplying itself in thousands and thousands of places, enjoying, so to speak, a kind of infinity denied to every other body, and reserved to it alone through the merit of His life, sacrificed to the Most High. It is said to have been once granted to an unbelieving Jew to have the mystery of this multiplied existence illustrated by the mouth of a woman.

He was amusing himself in the public square, when there passed a priest who, accompanied by a crowd, carried the most holy Viaticum to a sick person. All the people, bending the knee, rendered due homage of adoration to the Most Holy Sacrament; the Jew alone made no movement, nor gave any token of reverence. This being seen by a poor woman, she exclaimed, “O miserable man, why do you not show reverence to the true God, present in this Divine Sacrament?” “What true God?” said the Jew, sharply. “If this were so, would not there be many Gods, since on each of your altars there is one during Mass?” The woman instantly took a sieve, and holding it up to the sun, told the Jew to look at the rays which passed through the chinks; and then added, “Tell me, Jew, are there many suns which pass through the openings of this sieve, or only one?” And the Jew answering that there was but one sun. “Then,” replied the woman, “why do you wonder that God incarnate, veiled in the Sacrament, though one, indivisible, and unchanged, should, through excess of love, place Himself in true and Real Presence on different altars?” Through this illustration, he was held on to confess the truth of the faith. O holy faith! A ray of thy light is needed in order to reply with energy of spirit to the captiousness of carnal minds. Yes, who shall ever dare to assign limits to the omnipotence of God?

Through the great conception which St. Teresa had of the omnipotence of God, she was wont to say that the more lofty, deep, and abstruse to our understandings are the mysteries of our holy faith, with so much the more firmness, and with so much the greater devotion, did she believe them; knowing full well that the Almighty God could work prodigies infinitely greater still. Revive, then, your faith with heavenly grace, and, acknowledging this divine sacrifice to be the miracle of miracles, feelingly confess that majesty so great must needs be incomprehensible to our poor minds, and is, therefore, the more sublime; then, full of astonishment, exclaim again and yet again, “O treasure, how great! treasure of O love, how

@Angelo - I understand you want to believe that the “trads” are growing leaps and bounds and will take the Church back from us “Aging Hippies.”  But all the data points tell us that just isn’t true.  The implementation of Latin Mass has been stagnant and in some diocese shrinking over the last few years.  It’s just a fact.  And it’s not because us “Aging Hippies” are blocking it.  It is because many post-VII Catholics have tried out that old Mass and they feel disconnected from it.  Surprisingly, the same reasons that we went away from the Latin in the first place!!

And I know you or Celinedesilva will respond with some diatribe about how people who feel disconnected by that Liturgy aren’t REAL Catholics, blah, blah, blah.  But it doesn’t matter.  If people don’t come, you are just tilting at windmills. 

God could work prodigies infinitely greater still. Revive, then, your faith with heavenly grace, and, acknowledging this divine sacrifice to be the miracle of miracles, feelingly confess that majesty so great must needs be incomprehensible to our poor minds, and is, therefore, the more sublime; then, full of astonishment, exclaim again and yet again, “O treasure, how great!  treasure of O love, how immense!”

Terah James, I don’t really understand where the Mass as a “Memorial” comes in. Christ at the first Mass, the Last Supper said to the Apostles “do this in Memory of me”. There is a heresy that has lingered for 45 years that the Mass is only a Memorial in the sense that it is merely symbolic. This of course is not so. The term used for the Mass was “The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”. The use of this ancient term was attempted to be abolished by liberals. Melchisadek in the Old Testament offered to God Bread and Wine as a sacrifice. Then he gave the prophecy, “From the rising of the sun to its setting a perfect and pure sacrifice will be offered to God.” He was prophecying the Mystery of the Mass. In the OT God demanded sacrifice to be offered to him, this the Hebrews did, and this was discontinued by the Jews. Namely because the sacrifices of the OT to God prefigured the perfect sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ through his Passion and Death. When our Lord said “Do this in Memory of me” the Church teaches that this was the establishment of the Sacerdotal Priesthood who would be the instuments who would represent Christ at the continuance of offering his sacrifice. After the Consecration of Mass the priest says “Mysterium Fidei” which means the Mystery of our Faith, we don’t understand why and how which is why it is called a Mystery. A great book that explains much about the Mass was written by St. Leonard called “Hidden Treasure” it is published by Tan Books. Read this and you will come to understand the greatness of the Mass, called the Most Perfect Prayer. Always remember that the Mass is a Divine act and not a human act.

Angelo - When you are at Mass this Sunday (or even weekday Masses, if you are fortunate enough to go to daily Mass) check out the missalette where the Eucharistic Prayers are.  Immediately after the “Mystery of Faith”, where we (used to say), “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again” - I forgot the newer wording in the new liturgy - look at what the priest calls what we are doing.  In every official Prayer, the priest calls what we are doing a “memorial”.  I’m serious.  I’m not sending you on goose chase.  It’s right there.  That is what I’ve been referring to.  Our own Roman Catholic Mass Missals, Eucharistic Prayers, new liturgy books (from Advent 2011).  Is your Mass entirely in Latin?  If so, you have to read an English version of the Mass, to see what I mean.  Thanks for getting back to me.

@Angelo, On Calvary, since Jesus is the final and perfect sacrifice, why do you need continuing sacrifices?  He said:  “It is finished.”

Maxwell, The Trad movement is growing and will continue to grow. Try attending a Tridentine Mass and you will not see a bunch of old people. You will see young people, married couples with large families, their children are being brought up with the Traditional Faith, they are the future of the Old Mass. Pope Benedict XVl as Card. Ratzinger speaking of the Mass of St. Pius V said in order for it to grow, “We need a whole new generation of Bishops”, he knows and has said that liberal Bishops are the ones holding the progress back. We must wait for their retirement or their demise. In the meantime Pope Benedict XVl is choosing men to be Bishops, who have no problem with the Old Mass. So in the future you or your children will see the great restoration of the Church.

Casting Crowns, Your argument is with the Church established by Jesus Christ. I did’nt establish the Church it was Christ, I am only a follower of my God and his Church.

Oh my, there she is again. Celinedesilva, the Catholic Queen of copy & paste.

@Angelo, No, my argument is with you.  Jesus established a memorial of the Last Supper.  Nowhere did Jesus tell us to re-sacrifice Himself in perpetuity.  And even AFTER He rose from the dead.

@Angelo - Ugghh.  “Bishops are the ones holding the progress back.”

What do you envision the Bishops doing to reinstate the Tridentine Mass?  Have you missed the whole last decade where the faithful have dumped the Bishops as their authority figures?

I know you go to a Tridentine Mass and it’s over-full with SOME families.  That’s a tiny percentage of the entire diocese.  And the data shows that year over year it’s flat.  That’s like gong to a packed Green Party rally and deducing that they are going to take over congress. 

Look, it’s from the Bishop’s meetings that the data comes.  Yes, they expected a great desire among the faithful to offer Latin Masses across their diocese.  But the fact is that they all were surprised that the demand just wasn’t there, and they didn’t need to offer any more.  That’s simply a fact.

As a Roman Catholic, I always utilize the words of Scripture and the interpretation of our Holy Mother Church in my discussions about the faith.

 
Flaunting my writing abilities is never on my agenda in this situation. Many Bishops, priests and even this man Martini who is supposed to be a priest, by their own erroneous writings have caused much confusion in the faithful as seen on this post and much damage to souls.

PROPHECY OF MALACHIAS - This is the continuous offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

[11] For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. [Malachias (Malachi) 1:11
[11] A clean oblation: Viz., the precious body and blood of Christ in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

FULFILMENT OF THE PROPHECY OF MALACHIAS

[Luke 22:16] …them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. [20] In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

HOLY MOTHER CHURCH EXPLAINS.

[19] Do this for a commemoration of me: This sacrifice and sacrament is to be continued in the church, to the end of the world, to shew forth the death of Christ, until he cometh. But this commemoration, or remembrance, is by no means inconsistent with the real presence of his body and blood, under these sacramental veils, which represent his death; on the contrary, it is the manner that he himself hath commanded, of commemorating and celebrating his death, by offering in sacrifice, and receiving in the sacrament, that body and blood by which we were redeemed.

[Ephesians 4:11] And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors,

[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[13] Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ;

[14] That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.

[15] But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:

[11] GAVE SOME APOSTLES: HERE IT IS PLAINLY EXPRESSED, THAT CHRIST HAS LEFT IN HIS CHURCH A PERPETUAL SUCCESSION OF ORTHODOX PASTORS AND TEACHERS, TO PRESERVE THE FAITHFUL IN UNITY AND TRUTH.

[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

AGAIN MOTHER CHURCH INSTRUCTS US: [18] All power: See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ’s church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations;

and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.

This is true Ecumenism - These are my own words.

[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. [Matthew 28:]

Jesus says : “I AM WITH YOU …”  He is with us in the Holy Eucharist. His True Presence..  We Have the Holy Eucharist in fulfilment of this prophecy, “For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation.  This is The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

[2] …But the word of hearing did not profit them, not being mixed with faith of those things they heard. [Hebrews 4:2]

@Angelo -“Bishops are the ones holding the progress back.”

You are right Angelo.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article. I.

Section. 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section. 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section. 3.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.

Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Section. 4.

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section. 5.

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

@Maxwell:  Amen.  I know where you’re going.  Celinedesilva does not.

@Casting Crowns - ha, ha - battle of the cut and pasters!

Celinedesilva writes:  “Jesus says : “I AM WITH YOU …”  He is with us in the Holy Eucharist. His True Presence. 

OK, now more restricted theology.  Jesus never said “I am with you, BUT only in the Holy Eucharist.”  In fact, He never spoke the word Eucharist.  At His ascension, He said “I am with you always even unto the end of the age.”  I thought He is with you (His presence) at Pentecost when His Spirit comes to live inside you?  He told Moses and the Hebrews “I am with you in your coming in and in your going out.”  He must not be true in these other passages. 

Joshua 1:9 “Do not be afraid or discouraged. For the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.”  Celinedesilva is now calling God a liar by rejecting the Lord’s very own words to Joshua and the Hebrews.

Maxwell, Talk about cut and pasters, I suppose your 4:02 PM post are in your very own words. With your “ha, ha”, whats the joke, I don’t get it. Perhaps it was out of desperation. As for the Bishops who have been sabotaging the use of the Ancient Missal, it is by no means a secret. In my own Diocese after Pope Benedict issued “Summorum Pontificum”, our Bishop broke all its rules, he retaliated against any priest who attempted to say the Old Mass. He prohibited that the Old Mass be said on weekdays. It was a case of say the Old Mass and you don’t have a future. Many liberals in my Diocese have desperatly made the faithful feel like it would be stupid to attend the Old Mass. You have lost the battle against Holy Mother the Church, and now your losing your level headedness. Try to be calm! This is a discussion!

@Angelo

The joke that Candy’s cut and pastes are incredibly annoying and read by no one (except you I suppose).  I write about the facts revealed in data regarding the uptake of the Latin Mass.  You tell a rumor about your diocese.  Yes, the Bishop has to approve which churches can offer the Latin Mass and when they can do it.  You see, this is called managing your resources.  And when there is not a sufficient call for those Masses, he is going to manage to that.  In the cocoon you live in it appears there is a huge demand for the Old Mass, and the creepy liberals are fighting it tooth and nail.  But you don’t see the big picture and you don’t have access to the actual data.  It’s as simple as that.  So you just don’t have a handle on reality.

Casting Crowns, You too sound like you are now in a state of desperation. It would be wise to learn the Cathecism, then you could learn to be in union with the Truth as taught by Christ’s Church. I advise in Charity to abandon the private interpretation of scripture, its obvious it has sent your mind into a frenzy. Casting Crowns, why are you so much against what the Roman Catholic Church teaches? Please answer this question, I would really like to know why You, Maxwell and Terah James have such a loathing for the truths of the faith. Is it because you don’t know what the Church teaches? Are you perhaps liberals? Or are you protestants infiltrating a Catholic site in order to attempt to confuse other Catholics?

@Angelo - “are you protestants infiltrating a Catholic site in order to attempt to confuse other Catholics?”

No, we are just smarter and more well informed that most.

“than”

Maxwell, I believe you also read Candicedesilvas posts, or they would’nt be driving you to have so much anger against her. Have you read “Summorum Pontificum”? Of course not, or you would know what it says. Here is something it does say, any priest can say the old Latin Mass, he does not need any type of approval from his Bishop. The people have the right to have the Tridentine Mass said in their parishes. They only need to request it from their Pastor. If their Pastor will not facilitate them, then they are to go to their Bishop. If their Bishop denies them then Summorum Pontificum makes it clear that the next step is to contact Rome and the Vatican will teach the Bishop how to say Yes. I have been battling for the Right to have the Tridentine Mass for all, so I actually know whats going on. I guess I do have a handle on reality after all. Maxwell why do you always have to be wrong? Is it deliberate or is it you who does not have a handle on reality?

@Angelo, It is more preferable for you to center upon obeying the Lord and leaving all the consequences to Him.  You and Candy (easier, thanks, Maxwell) are only focused upon keeping rules and citing regulations.  The Jews could not bear up under the weight of the Talmud (62,000 pages) following the Torah and neither are you able to center upon Christ if keeping Catholic rules remain your objective.  Where is the peace and joy and security in Christ in any of this?  Jesus admonished the Scribes and Pharisees for placing such burdens upon the people and you, Candy and others are under a similar weight of church laws.  No man can keep all your laws.  Not even Benedict XVI or Blessed John Paul II.

@Angelo:  Show us where Jesus cares two cents which Mass is being said.  Do you love Him?  Does your life honor Him?  Are you sold out to Him and in submission to Him?  Is Jesus Lord of your life,—or is the institutional church Lord of your life?  Have you denied your very self for His sake?  Do you share the gospel with people who do not know Jesus?

Angelo - “are you protestants infiltrating a Catholic site in order to attempt to confuse other Catholics?”

You are right Angelo. 

These are protest-ants who like satan himself have infiltrated not just the church but now have started infiltrating Catholic websites.  They show who they really are by their ignorant and contemptuous comments.  They try to mock and confuse Catholics who come in on these sites.  We must not let them over rule us.

Through necessity, I have studied their heresies and perversions,so as to refute them (know thy enemy).  I have no desire to dialogue with them on their protest-ant websites.

Satan only goes where there is a challenge.  He already have protest-ants like these, within his grasp and hooked on his claws.

By their ignorant and in cohesive comments, one can surmise that some of the above mentioned protest-ants can’t read the English language and comprehend what is written.

What I present now from Holy Scripture is only for Catholics and those who have some decency and are sincerely SEEKING THE TRUTH;

[46] I will yet pour out doctrine as prophecy…[47] See ye that I have not laboured for myself only, but for all that seek out the truth. [Ecclesiasticus 24:47]

I Corinthians 11:

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.

27 THEREFORE, WHOSOEVER SHALL EAT THIS BREAD, OR DRINK THE CHALICE OF THE LORD UNWORTHILY, SHALL BE GUILTY OF THE BODY AND OF THE BLOOD OF THE LORD.

28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.

29 FOR HE THAT EATS AND DRINKS UNWORTHILY EATS AND DRINKS JUDGMENT TO HIMSELF, NOT DISCERNING THE BODY OF THE LORD.

Angelo, you said, “Pope Benedict XVl as Card. Ratzinger speaking of the Mass of St. Pius V said in order for it to grow, “We need a whole new generation of Bishops”, he knows and has said that liberal Bishops are the ones holding the progress back.”
If you accept this, Angelo, I shudder to think of what else you accept while the conciliar church is falling down around your ears and is an object of continuous disappointment and frustration. Who‘s in charge of it, Angelo?  Who appoints these bishops?  Who are we kiddin’!!!!  If you understood the ‘spirit’ of Vatican 2 you would grasp why he said this.  It is contrary to Sacred Tradition.  This is a perfect example of the minimizing of the Vicar of Christ and his authority and the periti take over at Vat 2. 
The Pope does not need the bishops to lead, to guide and to direct Holy Mother Church!  Atila Sinke Guimarâes in “Desire to Destroy” explains in great detail how the pope’s authority is turning into an office of love.  Christ did not institute His Church upon shifting sand and bishops.

@Candy and Angelo, your underground Catholic sect is in rebellion against the Vatican and Magisterium.  Do you follow a certain wing of Tridentine Bishops or do you follow Peter’s Chair?  Why are some Bishops not standing with Benedict?  Your rebellion makes you Protestant.

Celinedesilva, Great words of wisdom that you speak. Its too bad that there are those who do not understand what it is we are talking about. What does the Church call their attitudes? I mean besides heresy. They call themselves Catholics but it is so obvious that they know next to nothing about the Catholic Faith. Much less do they know how to know, love and serve God. I have debated on several sites and I have to say that I have never met with so much insolence from the enemies of the Church such as these. They just constantly repeat their ignorance, asking the same questions over and over. I have tried to repeatedly answer them but no answer is ever to their satisfaction. So I believe when they ask questions they are only setting traps, they have no knowledge of what discussion means. Should they ever say that they understand the points we make concerning the Church, it would be a grand shock to me. But its been fun to be able to point out the truth to them, maybe on their deathbeds they will remember and then cry out to Our Lady for her assistance, and ask God for his Mercy. I will remember them always in the Rosary with the prayer requested from our Lady, “Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy Mercy.” Celinedesilva May God continue to bless you, may you continue on your same course. Lets pray for each other, that we may preservere till the end.

Joe, You are asking me many questions in one post. What Benedict XVl said as Cardinal Ratzinger about the Old Mass and the Bishops getting in the way, are words of great joy and hope for me and many others. Joe, we can’t hate everything positive that comes from the Holy Father.

Posted by Angelo on Friday, Sep 14, 2012 6:55 PM (EST):
Celinedesilva,…Its too bad that there are those who do not understand what it is we are talking about. … Celinedesilva May God continue to bless you,… Lets pray for each other, that we may persevere till the end.

Angelo, thank you.

 
It looks like all hell breaks loose when I submit a comment quoting Holy Scripture which is the word of God, the Magisterium of Mother Church or the admonition of Great Saints.

I almost see the evil one mocking and snarling at us in each and every one of these hostile and putrid comments.  It’s only satan that sow such chaos and confusion and turmoil in souls full of pride and unruliness.
What I write now is for you and Roman Catholics of like mind only.  These Doctors of the Church warn us.  Lets heed them.

In union of prayer.  Celine

To know whom to avoid is a great means of saving our souls. [...] Thus, the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith by corrupting it, such as heretics, or by renouncing it, such as apostates. St. Thomas Aquinas

Wherefore, since outside the Catholic Church there is nothing perfect, nothing undefiled, the Apostle declaring that “all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23), we are in no way likened with those who are divided from the unity of the Body of Christ; we are joined in no communion. Pope St. Leo the Great

Do not work together with unbelievers, for what does justice have in common with injustice? II Corinthians 6:14

Whoever is separated from the Church must be avoided and fled from; such a man is wrong-headed; he is a sinner and self-condemned. [...] But if some of the leaders of schism persist in their blind and obstinate foolishness, and if advice for their own good fails to bring them back to the way of salvation, let the rest of you [...] break away from their ensnaring falsehood. [...] One must withdraw from those who are engaged in sin; rather, one must fly from them, lest by joining in their evil course and thus taking the wrong road, one should [...] become involved in the same guilt oneself. St. Cyprian

For if they have doctrines opposed to ours, it is not fitting to be mixed up with them for this cause alone. [...] What do you say? “Their faith is the same; these men are orthodox”? Why, then, are they not with us? St. John Chrysostom

DO NOT CONVERSE WITH HERETICS EVEN FOR THE SAKE OF DEFENDING THE FAITH, FOR FEAR LEST THEIR WORDS INSTIL THEIR POISON IN YOUR MIND. Bl. Isaiah

Our Lord Jesus Christ not only cared but ordered His disciples to “PREPARE” the “LARGE DINING ROOM FURNISHED” “where I may eat the Pasch with my disciples”

“PREPARE A LARGE DINING ROOM.”  CLEARLY SHOWS US THAT THIS WAS A SOLEMN OCCASSION and that Jesus was meticulous and paid attention to detail.

As I posted earlier, Jesus did not sit at the sea shore or on the road side or with the poor and the sick when He Instituted the Priesthood and The Holy Eucharist.  He was with His twelve Apostles, Judas included.  All Men.

These heretics pretending to be Catholic who have invaded this post are like the spurious woman who asked king Solomon “…Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it”.
 

[14] And whithersoever he shall go in, say to the master of the house, The master saith, Where is my refectory, where I may eat the pasch with my disciples? [15] And he will shew you A LARGE DINING ROOM FURNISHED; AND THERE PREPARE YE FOR US. [Mark 14:15]

11] And you shall say to the goodman of the house: The master saith to thee, Where is the guest chamber, where I may eat the pasch with my disciples? [12] And he will shew you a large dining room, furnished; and there prepare. [Luke 22:12]

To those imposters on this post our Lord has this to say:

[10] Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve. [Matthew 4:10]

DO NOT CONVERSE WITH HERETICS EVEN FOR THE SAKE OF DEFENDING THE FAITH, FOR
FEAR LEST THEIR WORDS INSTIL THEIR POISON IN YOUR MIND. Bl. Isaiah
Whoever is separated from the Church must be avoided and fled from; such a man is wrong-headed; he is a sinner and self-condemned.

Based on the above, try to defend the “Prayer Meeting of Religions in 1986 Assisi and subsequent Assisi Meetings”.

Try to defend ‘religious liberty’.

Angelo, you said, “Joe, we can’t hate everything positive that comes from the Holy Father.

What are you talking about, Angelo?

Have you noticed, Traditional Catholics are not invited to ‘Assisi Meetings?’

Joe, You well know that at Assisi the Holy Father Bl. John Paul ll, one of the greatest of Traditionalists, ordered that each of the worlds religions pray in their own Tradition to God for peace. You know that it was symbolic of all humanity asking God for peace. The other great Traditionalist Pope Benedict XVl who as Cardinal Ratzinger questioned what Bl. John Paul ll was doing. He later understood and now follows that great event of 1986. We cannot go back and start practicing what Jesus condemned about loving only those who love you. When it comes to those in our own Catholic faith who are heretics, we rush into battle inflict the Holy Wounds of Faith then retreat Victoriously! With the hope that they all be healed of all satanic influence against the Faith. All done with Charity!

Posted by Joe on Friday, Sep 14, 2012 10:01 PM (EST):
Based on the above, try to defend the “Prayer Meeting of Religions in 1986 Assisi and subsequent Assisi Meetings”.  Try to defend ‘religious liberty’.

1.  The Catholic Church did not end with Vatican II.
    The Catholic Church did not begin with Vatican II

2. VATICAN II WAS NOT A DOGMATIC COUNCIL
The Dogmas of the Catholic Church have already been proclaimed.

    VATICAN II WAS A PASTORAL COUNCIL.

The Main and only duty, obligation of the Pope is to: UPHOLD, PROTECT AND DEFEND THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH AND TRADITION; TO TEACH; TO RULE; AND TO SANCTIFY THE FAITHFUL.

NO POPE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO REFORM OR CHANGE THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH ON FAITH AND MORALS, OR TO CONTRADICT THEIR PREDESESSORS THE POPES BEFORE THEM.

The Teaching on Faith and morals of one pope cannot nullify the teaching of his Predecessors

“. Since the Church can not err, it could never be reformed in its teaching on faith or morals.

Those who say the Church needed reformation in faith or morals or Tradition that has united as Christ’s faithful for nearly 2,000 years accuse Our Lord of falsehood and deception.”

“STAND FAST AND HOLD THE TRADITIONS WHICH YOU HAVE LEARNED, WHETHER BY WORD, OR BY OUR EPISTLE.” (II Thessalonians 2:14)

The Church uses the Latin language instead of the national language of its children:

1. To avoid the danger of changing any part of its teaching in using different languages;

2. That all its rulers may be perfectly united and understood in their communications;

To show that the Church is not an institute of any particular nation, but the guide of all nations

Joe:  “Prayer Meeting of Religions in 1986 Assisi and subsequent Assisi Meetings”.  Try to defend ‘religious liberty’

THERE IS NO DEFENCE.  See next comment… CONTD.

THERE IS NO DEFENCE.  See next comment… CONTD.

CONTD.

Joe:  “Prayer Meeting of Religions in 1986 Assisi and subsequent Assisi Meetings”.  Try to defend ‘religious liberty’

As Cardinal Ratzinger on one Good Friday, March 25 said:
“Christ suffers in his own church…The soiled garments and face of your Church throw us into confusion. Yet it is we ourselves who have soiled them! It is we who betray you time and time again…”

We must pray for our Holy Father..

J. Vennari writes this informative and profound explanation…

“
The very manner in which “Christianity” is portrayed runs counter to the words of Pope Pius XI, who warned in his 1928 Encylical Mortalium Animos that such pan-Christian activity “gives countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ.”

This “false Christianity” is on exhibit at Assisi, since the one true Church established by Christ is portrayed as simply one representative of “Christianity” along Protestants Anglicans and Schismatic Orthodox.

Then there is the problem of religious indifferentism.

Blessed Pius IX, in line with the popes that preceded and succeeded him, taught in his 1864 Syllabus of Errors that it is an error to believe “every man is free to embrace and profess that religions which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.”

Sadly, Pope Benedict XVI appeared to foster this very indifferentism condemned by Pius IX and other popes, when on January 1, 2011, he formally invited members of various religions to Assisi “to solemnly renew the commitment of the faithful of religions to live their own religious faith as a service for the cause of peace.” [emphasis added]

The details of their talks are not the focus here and may be spotlighted at a later date. Mostly, they spoke of the need for peace; the call for commitment to an undefined “justice”; and of course, lots of celebratory praise for John Paul II who gave us the first Assisi in 1986. A speech by Pope Benedict closed the session.

The “Lethal System of Religious Indifferentism”

A good pastor told me years ago that the priest has the duty to not only avoid scandal, but to avoid even the appearance of scandal.

This necessarily applies to Assisi. The error of religious indifferentism – the belief that any religion is good enough for salvation – which is the central error of our age, is of such magnitude that nothing should be done to foster it in any way whatsoever.

The Popes throughout the centuries, and especially since the time of the French Revolution, condemned any activity that places the Catholic Church on equal footing with false religions.

Religious indifferentism is one of the many reasons for the Papal condemnations of Freemasonry, since Masonry places all religions on the same plain. Pope Leo XII taught in his inaugural Encyclical, Ubi Primum:

Pope Pius VIII forcefully condemned this error in the encyclical Traditi humilati nostrae:

“And this is the lethal system of religious indifferentism, which is repudiated by the light of natural reason itself. In this light we are warned that, among many religions which disagree with one another, when one is true, that there can be no association with light and darkness.

Against these repeaters of ancient errors, the people must be assured, Venerable Brethren, that the profession of the Catholic Faith is alone the true one, since the Apostle tells us that there is one Lord and one baptism. As Jerome says, the man who eats the Lamb outside of this house is profane, and the man who is not in the ark of Noah is going to perish in the deluge. Neither is there any other name apart from the Name of Jesus given to men by which we must be saved. “

Yet due to the new pan-religious orientation from Vatican II, and now on display at Assisi III, Catholics never hear these crucial magisterial statements. As the eminent theologian Father Edward Hanahoe warned in 1962, the ecumenical approach blankets with “significance silence” any Catholic teaching that stands in the way of the new pan-religious orientation.

The end result is that most modern Catholics recoil in horror when any one of us reiterates the true papal doctrine against religions indifferentism. Thanks to the new orientation, the Catholic language of the centuries is now a foreign tongue to the average Catholic.

And the image broadcast the world over is that of the Christ’s one true Catholic Church placed on the same level as false creeds. No matter what verbal caveats may show up in one or two of the speeches, it is religious indifferentism on parade.

If the duty of the priest is to avoid not only scandal, but also the appearance of scandal, then Catholics have a right to insist that our highest Church leaders must avoid the appearance of scandal and religious indifferentism that the Assisi gatherings televise throughout the globe.

As noted earlier, the only way to avoid religious indifferentism in a pan-religious event is to not hold the event.

I hope to post more news from Assisi later, along with what other Popes solemnly taught against the “lethal system of religious indifferentism”; and how this indifferentism does not bring upon the blessings of God, but punishment.*

In meditations written for the Way of the Cross at the Rome Colosseum on Good Friday, March 25, he said too many Catholics continue to scorn and scourge Jesus in his church.

“Christ suffers in his own church,” he said. He described “the falling of many Christians away from Christ and into a godless secularism,” but also the fall of those Catholics who abuse the sacraments or their positions in the church.

“The soiled garments and face of your church throw us into confusion. Yet it is we ourselves who have soiled them! It is we who betray you time and time again,” he wrote.

“Have mercy on your church,” he prayed. “When we fall, we drag you down to earth, and Satan laughs, for he hopes that you will not be able to rise from that fall; he hopes that being dragged down in the fall of your church, you will remain prostrate and overpowered.”

Posted by J. Vennari – Catholic Family News-  http://www.cfnews.org/assisi-iii.htm

Casting Crowns, Read what Celinedesilva quotes from St. Leonard’s “Hidden Treasure”. You falsly accuse her of just “Copy and Paste”. She has done research, I like her style, she chooses to present to us the truth from the very sources of truth itself, namely Scripture and Tradition. She is allowing scripture and tradition to speak to us right to our face. She does this research and prays, meditates and then presents for us the very truth on what we are discussing. Try reading and meditating on what she presents to us. If you choose not to, then you can continue to make yourself look foolish. You believe what the Church teaches through your own wild guesswork. This is ludicrous!

Posted by Angelo on Saturday, Sep 15, 2012 9:25 AM (EST):
Joe, You well know that at Assisi the Holy Father Bl. John Paul ll, one of the…

Angelo, Don’t fall into the trap of the majority of those who have infiltrated this post.

Joe is right.

WE CATHOLICS HAVE A DUTY TO PRAY FOR OUR HOLY FATHER.

Jesus warned us: 

[15] Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [Matthew 7:15]

[13] For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. [2 Corinthians 11:14] [Latin] [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

[28] Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [Acts Of Apostles 20:28]
[29] I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30] And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

[23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [Matthew 24:24] [Latin] [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

Celinedesilva, As for Assisi I have read the official explanations of what took place, how it took place and why it took place. I myself find that Assisi 1986 was something most pleasing to God, as it was his Vicar who was of great wisdom who ordered it. What the Vicar of Christ binds on earth is bound in heaven. Many have distorted what happened at Assisi, misinterpreted it, slandered it, gave reasons for it with the direct intention of causing Catholics to blaspheme Holy Mother Church, one such person is John Vennari whom I consider a notorious enemy of the Church. He has cunningly led many Catholics astray. I personaly have friends who after reading what John Vennari has said, have all become sedevacantists. Those are his popular fruits. There are 2 Assisi’s 1986, The one called for by Bl. John Paul ll, and the one cunningly distorted with fabricated lies and deceits. How these men have no fear of hell fire is beyond me.

Angelo,

Jesus commanded Peter to: “…[Matthew 28:20] TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU….”

Jesus never commanded Peter to teach other religions or false religions” but Jesus said, “ [7] And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men. [Mark 7:7]”

I was surprised that no one jumped on this comment.

If tomorrow the pope told you the moon was made of green cheese, would you believe and obey him?

 
“The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.” God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church.

After you have read this we could discuss it.

Posted by Celinedesilva on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2012 10:36 AM (EST):

Following Vatican II, it was Pope John Paul II who set up prayer rooms inside the Vatican. He allowed idols to be placed upon the Tabernacles and Altars on which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was offered.
All this in the name of Ecumenism a great outcome of Vatican II.
Read what Saints: Francis of Assisi, John Damascus had to say about Islam.

The grace of faith opens the “eyes of the hearts” to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery.

“The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood.” In the words of St. Augustine, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe.” God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church

FURTHER FRUITS OF VATICAN II: Defying the Teaching of the Apostles and his predecessors through the ages, to add insult to injury, Pope John Paul II inserted into the Catechism of the Catholic Church that “with Muslims we worship the one same God.”

THIS IS A LIE. CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS DO NOT WORSHIP OR BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD.

Peter 2:1 the First Pope instructs us “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

[1 John 4:2-3] By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: [3] And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

MUSLIMS DENY THE BLESSED TRINITY: Koran; 4:171-172 “.....Say not “Trinity”: desist…..”

MUSLIMS DENY THE DIVINITY OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST: HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.

‘Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, and he was protected’ Islam’s Noble Quran’s 13:38,

MUSLIMS DENY EVERY ARTICLE OF THE CATHOLIC CREED.

For Catholics Paradise is: Isaias 64:4 From the beginning of the world they have not heard, nor perceived with the ears: the eye hath not seen, O God, besides thee, what things thou hast prepared for them that wait for thee.

Mirrored in the new Testament is St. Paul 1 Corinthians 2:9
But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

IN ISLAM, ALLAH PROMISES: a sexual, sensuous and demonic afterlife: “God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness.

‘For those who keep from evil, with their Lord are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pure ‘azwaj’ and contentment from Allah.’ (Koran3:15).

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/worship.htm

Indeed the smoke of satan is inside the Vatican.
Having read Cardinal Martini’s vitriolic last testament against the Catholic Church, he probably is enjoying the Islamic paradise he lived to promote.

True Ecumenism is to follow the teaching of our Lord:
Mark 16:[14] At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. [15] And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned

Jesus once said to Peter, “get behind me satan.  On this error of false ecumenism and relativism, I am not bound to believe.  About Assisi, Jesus would tell John Paul II the same thing.

Celinedesilva, What you said about prayer rooms in the Vatican with Idols. That I do not believe. What I do believe is that it is another one of John Vennari’s lies and tales, or Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s lies and myths. As for Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and others. They are our brothers in Christ, sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Our Lady in Egypt appeared to Catholics and Muslims alike. Every man/woman created by God is a son and daughter of Mary. The Pope is not just Pope of Roman Catholics, he is the Pope of all humanity, whether they accept him or not. As for Cardinal Martini, yes he was a known liberal with ideas incompatiable with the Faith. But not all he said and did was wrong. I read the interview with Cardinal Martini which was released one day before his death, it was an interview that took place 2 or 3 weeks before. What has been attributed to him in this interview has been taken out of context, the media just chose to cause a frenzy among people. The interview itself was the voice of a man who deeply loved souls, it was almost like he was despairing for all humanity, a vision with no hope, it all comes down to a big question mark, Where is humanity going? I wish NCRegister would print the whole interview.

Angelo, you said, “As for Cardinal Martini, yes he was a known liberal with ideas incompatiable with the Faith. But not all he said and did was wrong.” 
Angelo, think man!!! —-  all it takes in ONE disobedience and the man should have been replaced.  He proved he was not a faithful son.  Where do YOU draw the line, Angelo?  You must have some limits to disobedience all though I can’t say that I’ve found it.  You are defending those who war against Christ’s Church.

Angelo, you said to Celinedesilva, that you do not believe what was done at Assisi but you proof nothing once again.  Facts surely are inconvenient to your reasoning, Angelo.
As for Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and others, Angelo, they are heretics.  They’ve chosen disobedience rather than to be baptized.  No one is saying we are to slay them, or even to hate them.  We are to love them, but we are not to join them in prayer services.  Pontiffs have warned against such activities.

Angelo, Conciliarists were at the Assisi Meeting along with about 149 other quasi belief systems.  Catholics were not at the Assisi Meeting.  I have in the past said, Traditional Catholics, but I’ve change that to “Catholics” for there is only ONE Catholic Church – there is not a pre and a post Vat 2 Catholic Church.  Catholics were not invited to the Assisi Meeting!
You keep referring to John Vernari.  I’ve never read his investigations.  The Assisi Meeting is not rooted in Sacred Scripture, is not rooted in Sacred Tradition nor the Magisterial Teachings of Holy Mother the Church.  In fact it is not even rooted in Vatican 2, however,——  the ‘spirit’ of such a meeting’s foundation is in the documents of Vatican II.
See Fr. Johannes Dörmann = “ Pope John Paul II’s Theological Journey to the Prayer Meeting of Religions In Assisi”.  I can provide more evidence of the “universal salvation” concept that was the basis of the meeting. 

Joe, I do not deny that much of what Cardinal Martini said in the past was at odds with the Church. But when it comes to that certain interview which comments have been widely publized. Because I read the whole interview I can say his words were much taken out of context. Joe, one of the things that I have learned is to take seriously what Our Lord said, “Judge what is in no mans heart, for only God knows what is in his heart.”. So far many of the judgments against Martini have been judgments of what was in his heart. We can rightfuly challenge with the Truth of the Faith what he said or did not say. I am trying at this time to piece all of this together, for a greater understanding. As for Assisi we can rant and rave all we want, but let us not miss the most important fact about Assisi. And that is that the Vicar of Christ Bl. John Paul ll called for it, and in obedience we cannot go against him. The main problem with Assisi, was created by others who made no attempt to try to understand what was happening. They jumped to their own conclusions and planted the seed of dissent against the Roman Pontiff. If God does not hate his creation, neither will I.

Joe, You have asked me many times to explain things in a form of challenging the Church. I wish to ask you 2 questions in the same manner. Our Lady appeared in Egypt on top of a certain Church. It is a Church approved apparition. Our Lady was even able to be photographed. Now Our Lady showed herself to Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims and pagans. This apparition could be rightfully called the Assisi 1986 of Egypt. You can find it on you tube. Now tell me why Our Lady would appear to Orthodox, Muslims and pagans. Another approved apparition took place in the 50’s. Our Lady appeared to a Protestant who was on his way to assasinate Ven. Pius Xll, Our Lady appeared with a Bible in her hand. After this the Protestant canceled his plans. He was granted an audience with Ven. Pius Xll, in which he gave the gun he intended to assasinate him with. Ven. Pius Xll asked him, “Did you not know that had you succeded, another Pope would have been chosen?” Joe now tell me why would our Lady appear to a Protestant? This again can be called another Assisi event.

Posted by Angelo on Saturday, Sep 15, 2012 5:26 PM (EST):
“Celinedesilva, What you said about prayer rooms in the Vatican with Idols. That I do not believe….”

• “What has been attributed to him in this interview has been taken out of context,…”

‘Taken out of context” is the biggest joke/tragedy and lie of our time when Catholics want to pull the wool over their own eyes and the eyes of others.

• “…Our Lady in Egypt appeared to Catholics and Muslims alike…”
Apparitions are not articles of faith which Catholics must believe. The Catholic Faith is not founded on apparitions.

• …I wish NCRegister would print the whole interview…”
In one of my previous comments on this post, I believe I posted the whole article.
• “What you said about prayer rooms in the Vatican with Idols. That I do not believe….”

Angelo,

Just because you do not believe does not mean it did not happen.  As always, I do my research from primary sources. The TRUTH told by anyone should not be dismissed BUT INVESTIGATED WITH A SINCERE DESIRE FOR THE TRUTH ONLY.

The devil knew Jesus is God all along.  [3] And the devil said to him: If thou be the Son of God, say to this stone that it be made bread. [Luke 4:3]

Does it mean the evil satan, “the father of lies” was lying when for once, he called Jesus “Son of God”?

The office of the Supreme Pontiff is not to be all inclusive Mr. Congeniality, nice man, popular, admired, applauded, praised and loved by the whole world like John Paul II is.

A few months ago, at a parish I visited for Holy Mass, the priest preached in the homily, that “John Paul II is the second Christ.” I was there.

[11] Woe to you, ungodly men, who have forsaken the law of the Most High Lord. [Ecclesiasticus 41:11]

26] Woe to you when men shall bless you: for according to these things did their fathers to the false prophets. [Luke 6:26]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

“I For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion…” 
Given at Rome, at Saint Peter’s, on the 6th day of January, on the Feast of the Epiphany of Jesus Christ, our Lord, in the year 1928, and the sixth year of Our Pontificate. PIUS XI

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. I-II, Q. 103, A. 4: “All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists. Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declaration, he sins mortally.”21

With St. Peter the First Pope, there were some 263 Popes before John Paul II.  We have had some very bad popes throughout our history.  Yet none of these popes not even the very bad popes contradicted their predecessors on doctrinal truths as John Paul II has done.  None of them went around kissing Korans.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Thelogica, Pt. II-II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “...if anyone were to… worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.“22

. Invitation to prayer
- The Holy Father invites all present to proceed to their respective places for prayer

2. Places set aside for prayer
- Lower Basilica: Christians
- Sacred Convent:
• Room A Islam
• Room B Buddhism
• Room C Sikhism
• Room D African Traditional Religions
• Room E Hinduism
• Room F Tenrikyo
• Room G Shintoism
• Room H Judaism
• Room I Zoroastrianism, Janinism and Confucianism

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20020124_assisi-giornata_en.html#II.

   
MAY SAINT JOHN BAPTIST PROTECT ISLAM

and all the people of Jordan, and all who participated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you.
Thank you very much.

© Copyright 2000 - Libreria Editrice Vaticana
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20020124_assisi-giornata_en.html#II.

[13] No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. [Luke 16:13]

[9] And I say to you: Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity; that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings. [Luke 16:9]

[9] And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men. [Matthew 15:9]

[21] You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord, and of the table of devils. [1 Corinthians 10:21] [22] …All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. [23] All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify.

[6] JESUS SAITH TO HIM: I AM THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME. [John 14:6]

24] AMEN, AMEN I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT HE WHO HEARETH MY WORD, AND BELIEVETH HIM THAT SENT ME, HATH LIFE EVERLASTING; AND COMETH NOT INTO JUDGMENT, BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE. [John 5:24]

11] Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. [Ephesians 6:11] [Latin] [12] For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. [13]

Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:

Celinedesilva, After all you have said, we then have no choice but to declare Catholism dead. All are not perfect so all are eternaly lost. No more hope for those not in union with the Church. No more hope for liberals, no more hope for traditionalists. All is wasted, all is gone. With Bl. John Paul ll erring, the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong, no one is wrong and no one is right. Scrap V2, scrap V1, srap Trent, srap all the 21 Councils. There is error everywhere. Shut down the Church, sell everthing as the Church with all the errors is no more. Goodbye, As God no longer is with his Church as is evident that every thing is wrong and nothing is right.

Calm down Angelo,

These are not my words.  I gave you what you asked for. FACTS.

As I said before.  VATICAN II was not a dogmatic council.

You don’t have to be so desperate.  Calm down and read carefully what I have written.  Also go to the Vatican links I have provided and read prayerfully and carefully for your self.

Your Faith should be built on solid ground of unshaken obedience to the Tradition, Doctrine, Dogma, and Magisterium of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

We have had bad popes in the past.  However, it was only John Paul II who for the first time in 1,950 odd year history of the Church, contradicted all the previous Councils, the teaching of his predecessors, Saints and doctors of the church and Jesus Christ Himself.  HOWEVER, NOT EVERYTHING HE DID WAS WRONG.

All is not lost.  That is why we need to go back to our roots.  Our Holy Father has to deal with Catholics like you so he is treading slowly in admitting what was wrong in Pastoral Council (not Dogmatic) and restoring The Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.  We cannot be more compassionate and caring than our Lord Who said:

  [15] AND HE SAID TO THEM: GO YE INTO THE WHOLE WORLD, AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE. [MARK 16:15]

[16] HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED, SHALL BE SAVED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE CONDEMNED

Angelo, you said, “Joe, I do not deny that much of what Cardinal Martini said in the past was at odds with the Church. “

Has he repented?!  If not he is to be denied his place as Cardinal.  As a Catholic I have no problem expecting TOTAL devotion to Holy Mother the Church.  That’s what Saints, confessors, Virgins, and Martyrs are made of = totally dovoted servants.

I suggest studying the Baltimore Catechism.

Angelo, the gates of hell prevailed over Vatican 2 council.  The Catholic Church is alive and well but will not be found in the Catholic Churches owned by the conciliar heirarchy.

Even a “pasotal council” cannot teach error.  One drop of poison makes the whole council bogus.  It is being proven with its destruction and amazing losses.

BTW,  Of the 16 Documents of Vat 2, Lumen Gentium is a Dogmatic Decree and Dei Verbum is a Dogmatic Decree.

Regarding John Paul II, “HOWEVER, NOT EVERYTHING HE DID WAS WRONG.”  Did he err on Faith and Morals?  We have some very serious problems when, for one instance, a Buddha Statue gets placed over the Tabernacle, gets incensed and Mass is said in John Paull II’s presence.

What is a martyr?

Angelo,

11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.

[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. [1 Corinthians 3:13] [Latin] [14] If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

[12] Upon this foundation: The foundation is Christ and his doctrine: or the true faith in him, working through charity. The building upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones, signifies the more perfect preaching and practice of the gospel; the wood, hay, and stubble, such preaching as that of the Corinthian teachers (who affected the pomp of words and human eloquence) and such practice as is mixed with much imperfection, and many lesser sins. Now the day of the Lord, and his fiery trial, (in the particular judgment immediately after death,) shall make manifest of what sort every man’s work has been: of which, during this life, it is hard to make a judgment. For then the fire of God’s judgment shall try every man’s work. And they, whose works, like wood, hay, and stubble, cannot abide the fire, shall suffer loss; these works being found to be of no value; yet they themselves, having built upon the right foundation, (by living and dying in the true faith and in the state of grace, though with some imperfection,) shall be saved yet so as by fire; being liable to this punishment, by reason of the wood, hay, and stubble, which was mixed with their building.

Angleo in your own words you say, “There is error everywhere. Shut down the Church, sell everthing as the Church with all the errors is no more. Goodbye, As God no longer is with his Church as is evident that every thing is wrong and nothing is right.

These things are happening as planned, Angelo.  There is a purposed destructive agenda and they are pleased with it progress. Have you read:  “Desire to Destroy” by Atila Sinke Guimaraes; or “What Has Happened to the Catholic Church?” by Fathers Francisco and Dominic Radecki; or “No Crisis in the Church?” by Simon Galloway??????
The gates of hell will not prevail over the Catholic Church, Angelo.  Don’t get this confused with the ‘conciliarist new religion and new church fabricated by men.

Per Celinedesilva———————————
As Cardinal Ratzinger on one Good Friday, March 25 said:
“Christ suffers in his own church…The soiled garments and face of your Church throw us into confusion. Yet it is we ourselves who have soiled them! It is we who betray you time and time again…”

Was he sitting in a synagogue when he made this disgusting statement?!  Christ’s Church is without error.  Yes, the people within have tried since the beginning to destroy Christ’s Church.  The Roman Catholic Church instituted by Christ is free of error.  The above statement gives a strong indication Christ has spoken in error and Christ teaches error.  Now he’s right about ‘we’ (the conciliar heirarchy) who betray the Church.  But then he never speaks clearly.

Did you attend Mass this morning and listen closely to the Gospel?  Or were you busy judging & fretting over how people were dressed, who kneeled, who didn’t stick their tongue out, did the priest skip a line somewhere, who was holding hands, were there girl altar servers, was there too much music, did the music meet your approval, who arrived late and who left early, who didn’t show up today, who didn’t conduct themselves as reverently as you, etc., etc., etc.?

Or did you take to heart the part that mentioned - works?

Just curious

Angelo, your post of Sunday, Sep 16, 2012 12:45 PM (EST):  To whom are you addressing?  If it’s me be very specific what you are asking.

I address no one in particular. Pope John Paul ll has erred! Thats the end. The Church is no more. As the gates of hell prevailed. Its all over folks! What we do now? I don’t know. Please address me no more. I need to find something.

@Angelo

I believe you are supposed to capitalize “Hell”.  And you need the apostrophe to complete the contraction, “that’s”.  The same goes true for “It’s”.  And, not to be picky, but you probably shouldn’t use “John Paul II has erred!”  Given that JP II passed away, it would be more appropriate to leave out the “has”, and leave it as “John Paul II erred”.

Angelo, you’ve got to face facts and move on.  These are not easy times for any of us.

Dear Angelo,

Right now, you are feel hurt, let down and confused.  One cannot blame you. 

Unknowingly, your admiration for JPII alone, and your LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of Scripture, the Magisterium of Mother Church and Her History were the reasons that you are Catholic.

John Paul II was a bad pope like some popes before him.  However the Church still stands and will stand despite them.  Its of them that the Apostle writes:

26 Wherefore I take you to witness this day, that I am clear from the blood of all men; 27 For I have not spared to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20”28 29 know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Remember, Judas was one of His Apostles, made a priest at the Last supper.  He betrayed our Lord to death with a kiss.  Our Lord Rose again from the dead.

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.  The outward sign and inward Graces of the Sacraments are seared onto our souls for all eternity; in heaven or hell.

“The gates of hell will never prevail against the Church” Jesus Christ Instituted His Church.

In the Catholic Church only is the TRUE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST.

Contd…

Contd…

Right now this book by Archbishop Lefebvre will be of immense help as it has helped me.

An Open Letter to Confused Catholics is online.

www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToconfusedCatholics/index.htm

As I said earlier, I do not belong to SSPX.

In my parish church the Novus Ordo Mass is offered most reverently as is the Tridentine Holy Mass by our holy Priest.  I sing Gregorian Chants at this Mass.– Fons Bonitatis ordinaries as I do at the Traditional Mass that made countless saints.

Very soon we will be having a Novus Ordo Latin Mass as intended and instructed by Pope Paul VI.

Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

6 My people have been a lost flock, their shepherds have caused them to go astray, and have made them wander in the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place. Jer 50:6

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: AND BEHOLD I AM WITH YOU ALL DAYS, EVEN TO THE CONSUMMATION OF THE WORLD. Mat 28:20

  8] All power: See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ’s church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.

ONLY IN THE Catholic Church is the REAL PRESENCE of our Blessed Lord in the Holy Eucharist.

54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been proved, he shall receive a crown of life, which God hath promised to them that love him. James 1:12,13 Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.

In union of prayer
Celine

What I wrote on Sept, 16, 2012 10:31 AM, I wrote in order to show many of you that your judgements against the Church founded on the Rock St. Peter, cause devasting damage to the Church. By your knit picking you kill God in the souls of many. There are two satanic inspired errors in the Church today, Namely Heresy and Schism. You make yourselves the grand teachers of the faith, when in fact you err. The ancient teaching held by many Catholics has been forgotten or rejected, “Where Peter is, there is the Church”. Bl. John Paul ll did not err! The ones who are erring are those who prumptuously condemn this great Saint. Yes! I accuse you of both heresy and schism. Andrew, I have never been good at grammar, I wish I was. But as far as getting my meesage across, my grammer has not stood too much in the way. Feel free to dot my i’s and cross my t’s its of little importance to me in attempting to write what my points are. As for hell, I deliberatly never capitalize it, for obvious reasons.

Ahhh, but you miss the point Angelo.  A well made point using poor grammar is many times disregarded by people who see the author as intellectually lazy and not worth one’s attention.  If you can’t get the easy stuff right, how are you to be trusted with the complex?

Andrew, Let me put it another way. I really don’t care! Why bring up a topic that has nothing to do with this discussion?

Angelo, Ask yourself why there were no Catholics at the Assisi Meeting of 1986 and subsequent meetings?  Dignitatis Humane, Lumen Gentium and Gaudium et spes points to these facts:  God is emptied out, and man is dignified.  Original sin is denied;  religious liberty is a right making the Catholic Church irrelevant; sentiment and love, love, love has over taken reason;  non-negotiables have replaced the Ten Commandments; whatever is Traditional is despised; what has been Supremely condemned is now acceptable. 
Angelo, get acquainted with the “Syllabus of Errors”.  No wonder Pope Pius XII had such difficulty getting Pope Saint Pius X canonized.  He was hated by those impatient to “destroy from within”.

Joe, It is so hard for me to believe there were no Catholics in Assisi in 1986. Think about this, it took place at a great Catholic site, The Vicar of Christ was there and I’m sure he did not go alone. And you state “there were no Catholics at the Assisi meeting..” There were some serious abuses by some Catholics in Assisi but its best for now not to fuel the fire. If Bl. John Paul ll was wrong, then would you say that Our Lady in her apparitions in Egypt was wrong also? After all she allowed herself to be seen by the Orthodox, Muslims and Pagans. Word spread, about Our Lady’s apparition and Our Lady gave plenty of time for all to arrive and see. I wonder if this is not where Bl. John Paul ll got the idea for Assisi. Tell me Joe, did Our Lady err? According to Celinedesilva this was only a private revelation so the question need not be answered, and it could all be dismissed. But I say because it was approved by the Church, then dismissing it is not so easy. The fact remains, the Vicar of Christ and Our Lady did the same thing. Joe, Please explain. As for your other opinions, I find them to be a distorted view of the truth.

Celinedesilva, You say my “LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of scripture”. It is not as limited as you think. I may not tote and quote the scriptures, but by following the Missal at daily Mass I have come to appreciate God’s word. God has given me enough understanding to apply it to my spiritual and physical life. I am not a Biblical Scholar nor do I wish to be. Of what use would it be if I could tote and quote scripture and it turn me to be an enemy of Christ’s Church. As for the open letter written by Archbishop Marcel Lebevre, I read a good part of it and found it to be excellant in my own view. But as for the Archbishop he was sort of a schizophrenic when it came to his views of the Church. He was a Council Father, signed in aggreement all 16 Documents of Vatican Council ll. Then turned on the Council with a furry. He sighned an aggreement with Rome, along with Bl. John Paul ll and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. The Holy Father was more than Generous. Then Lebevre turns around and consecrates 4 Priests as Bishops against the express will of the Holy Father. After looking at all this, I then decided not to finish reading his open letter. He by his own doing lost all credibility with many of his followers of which I was one.

INTERVIEW WITH ARCHBISHOP MARCEL LeFEBVRE

Editor’s Note:

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre of France made headlines when he was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church by Pope John Paul II for consecrating bishops in contravention of orders from Rome. While much has been written about the controversial churchman, very little has been heard directly from him. As a consequence, many people are confused about what is involved in his so-called rebellion and what motivates him.

The following interview with the archbishop was to have been published in 1978 by a leading American Catholic publication. However, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops threatened the publication’s publisher with excommunication and decreed virtual extinction for the publication itself if the interview were run. In fact, the bishops ordered that no Catholic publication could run this interview with Archbishop Lefebvre.

An edited version of the interview was finally published in The Spotlight, a weekly newspaper in Washington, D.C., in its issue of July 18, 1988. The complete and unedited interview is transcribed below.
The Spotlight makes no case for or against the doctrinal positions of Archbishop Lefebvre. We printed the interview for we find his statements of 14 years ago, if read in the light of current events, to be extremely timely.

The world itself we find to be in a state of near collapse and the Catholic Church an institution that was once regarded by friend and foe alike to be changeless, now to be riddled with elements of moral relativism, communism, homosexuality and gross uncertainty. Archbishop Lefebvre speaks out in opposition to these trends. The questions asked of the archbishop are in dark type; his responses in light type.

You have debated and taken part in the deliberations of the second council of the Vatican, have you not?

Yes.

Did you not sign and agree to the resolutions of this council?
No. First of all, I have not signed all the documents of Vatican II because of the last two acts. The first, concerned with “Religion and Freedom,” I have not signed. The other one, that of “The Church in the Modern World”, I also have not signed. This latter is in my opinion the most oriented toward modernism and liberalism.

Are you on record for not only not signing the documents but also on record to publicly oppose them?

Yes. In a book, which I have published in France, I accuse the council of error on these resolutions, and I have given all the documents by which I attack the position of the council - principally, the two resolutions concerning the issues of religion and freedom and “The Church in the Modern World.”

Why were you against these decrees?

Because these two resolutions are inspired by liberal ideology which former popes described to us-that is to say, a religious license as understood and promoted by the Freemasons, the humanists, the modernists and the liberals.

Why do you object to them?

This ideology says that all the cultures are equal; all the religions are equal, that there is not a one and only true faith. All this leads to the abuse and perversion of freedom of thought. All these perversions of freedom, which were condemned throughout the centuries by all the popes, have now been accepted by the council of Vatican II.

Who placed these particular resolutions on the agenda?

I believe there were a number of cardinals assisted by theological experts who were in agreement with liberal ideas.

Who, for example?

Cardinal (Augustine) Bea (a German Jesuit), Cardinal (Leo) Suenens (from Belgium), Cardinal (Joseph) Frings (from Germany), Cardinal (Franz) Koenig (from Austria). These personalities had already gathered and discussed these resolutions before the council and it was their precise aim to make a compromise with the secular world, to introduce Illuminist and modernist ideas in the church doctrines.

Were there any American cardinals supporting these ideas and resolutions?
I do not recall their names at present, but there were some. However, a leading force in favor of these resolutions was Father Murray.
Are you referring to Father John Courtney Murray (an American Jesuit)?

Yes.

What part has he played?

He has played a very active part during all the deliberations and drafting of these documents.

Did you let the pope (Paul VI) know of your concern and disquiet regarding these resolutions?

I have talked to the pope. I have talked to the council. I have made three public interventions, two of which I have filed with the secretariat. Therefore, there were five interventions against these resolutions of Vatican II.

In fact, the opposition led against these resolutions was such that the pope attempted to establish a commission with the aim of reconciling the opposing parties within the council. There were to be three members, of which I was one.

When the liberal cardinals learned that my name was on this commission, they went to see the holy father (the pope) and told him bluntly that they would not accept this commission and that they would not accept my presence on this com- mission. The pressure on the pope was such that he gave up the idea.

I have done everything I could to stop these resolutions which I judge contrary and destructive to the Catholic faith. The council was convened legitimately, but it was for the purpose of putting all these ideas through.

Were there other cardinals supporting you?

Yes. There was Cardinal (Ernesto) Ruffini (of Palermo), Cardinal (Giuseppe) Siri (of Genoa) and Cardinal (Antonio) Caggiano (of Buenos Aires).

Were there any bishops supporting you?

Yes. Many bishops supported my stand.

How many bishops?

There were in excess of 250 bishops. They had even formed themselves into a group for the purpose of defending the true Catholic faith.

What happened to all of these supporters?

Some are dead; some are dispersed throughout the world; many still support me in their hearts but are frightened to lose the position, which they feel may be useful at a later time.

Is anybody supporting you today (1978)?

Yes. For instance, Bishop Pintinello from Italy; Bishop Castro de Mayer from Brazil. Many other bishops and cardinals often contact me to express their support but wish at this date to remain anonymous.

What about those bishops who are not liberals but still oppose and criticize you?

Their opposition is based on an inaccurate understanding of obedience to the pope. It is, perhaps, a well-meant obedience, which could be traced to the ultramontane obedience of the last century, which in those days was good because the popes were good. However, today, it is a blind obedience, which has little to do with a practice and acceptance of true Catholic faith.

At this stage it is relevant to remind Catholics allover the world that obedience to the pope is not a primary virtue.

The hierarchy of virtues starts with the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity followed by the four cardinal virtues of justice, temperance, prudence and fortitude. Obedience is a derivative of the cardinal virtue of justice. Therefore it is far from ranking first in the hierarchy of virtues.

Certain bishops do not wish to give the slightest impression that they are opposed to the holy father. I understand how they feel. It is evidently very unpleasant, if not very painful.

I certainly do not like to be in opposition to the holy father, but I have no choice considering what is coming to us from Rome at present, which is in opposition to the Catholic doctrine and is unacceptable to Catholics.

Do you suggest that the holy father accepts these particular ideas?

Yes. He does. But it is not only the holy father. It is a whole trend. I have mentioned to you some of the cardinals involved in these ideas. More than a century ago, secret societies, Illuminati, humanist, modernist and others, of which we have now all the texts and proofs, were preparing for a Vatican council in which they would infiltrate their own ideas for a humanist church.

Do you suggest that some cardinals could have been members of such secret societies?

This is not a very important matter at this stage whether they are or not. What is very important and grave is that they, for all intents and purposes, act just as if they were agents or servants of humanist secret societies.

Do you suggest that these cardinals could have taken up such ideas deliberately or were they given the wrong information or were they duped or a combination of all?

I think that humanist and liberal ideas spread throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. These secular ideas were spread everywhere, in government and churches alike.

These ideas have penetrated into the seminaries and throughout the church. And today the church wakes up finding itself in a liberal straitjacket.

This is why one meets liberal influence that has penetrated all strata of secular life during the last two centuries, right inside the church. Vatican Council II was engineered by liberals; it was a liberal council; the pope is a liberal and those who surround him are liberals.

Are you suggesting that the pope is a liberal even if he has never declared himself to be a liberal?

The pope has never denied that he was (a liberal).

When did the pope indicate that he was a liberal?

The pope stated on many occasions that he was in favor of modernist ideas, in favor of a compromise with the world. In his own words, it was necessary.’to throw a bridge between the church and the secular world.’
The pope said that it was necessary to accept humanist ideas, that is was necessary to discuss such ideas; that it was necessary to have dialogs.

At this stage, it is important to state that dialogs are contrary to the doctrines of the Catholic faith. Dialogs presuppose the coming together of two equal and opposing sides; therefore, in no way could (dialog) have anything to do with the Catholic faith.

We believe and accept our faith as the only true faith in the world. All this confusion ends up in compromises, which destroy the church’s doctrines, for the misfortune of mankind and the church alike.

You have stated that you know the reason for the decline in church attendance and lack of interest in the church today, which you reportedly attributed to the resolutions of Vatican II. Is that correct?

I would not say that Vatican II would have prevented what is happening in the church today. Modernist ideas have penetrated everywhere for a long time and that has not been good for the church. But the fact that some members of the clergy have professed such ideas, that is to say the ideas of perverted freedom, in that case-license.

The idea that all truths are equal, all religions are the same, consequently, all the moralities are the same, that everybody’s conscience is equal, that everybody can judge theologically what he can do - these are really humanist ideas – (the idea) of total license with no discipline of thought whatever which leads to the position that anybody can do whatever he likes. All of this is absolutely contrary to our Catholic faith.

You have said that most of these theological counselors and experts only pretend that they are representing the majority of the people, that in fact the people are really not represented by these liberal theologians. Could you explain?

By ‘majority of the people,’ I mean all the people who honestly work for a living. I mean the people on the land, people of common sense in contact with the real world, the lasting world. These people are the majority of the people, who prefer traditions and order to chaos.

There is a movement of all these people throughout the world, who are slowly coalescing in total opposition to all the changes that were made in their name, of their religion.

These people of good will and good sense have been so traumatized by these dramatic changes that they are now reluctant to attend church. When they go into a modernist church, they do not meet what is sacred-the mystical character of the church, all that which is really divine.
What leads to God is divine and they no longer meet God in these churches. Why should they come to a place where God is absent?

People perceive this very well and the liberal cardinals and their advisers have seriously underestimated the loyalty of the majority to their true faith. How (else) can you explain that as soon as we open a traditional chapel or church, every-body rushes in from everywhere? We have standing room only. The Masses go on all day to accommodate the faithful.

Why? Because they find once again what they need: the sacred, the mystical, the respect for the sacred.

For instance, you would see at the airport different people coming to the priests who were there to meet me, shaking their hands - total strangers. Why? Because where people find a priest, a real priest, a priest that behaves like a priest, who dresses like a priest, they are attracted to him immediately and follow him.

This happens here in the United States, it happens in Europe and everywhere in the world. People in the street coming to greet a priest; they come to congratulate him out of the blue and tell him how glad they are to see a real priest, to tell him how glad they are that there are still some priests.

Do you suggest that clothes and habit make a difference in the quality of the priest?

Habits and clothing are, of course, only a symbol, but it is to what this symbol represents that people are attracted, not, of course, the symbol itself.

Why do you appear to attach such importance to the rituals of the Tridentine Mass?1

We certainly do not insist on rituals just for the sake of rituals but merely as symbol of our faith. In that context, we do believe they are important. However, it is the substance and not the rituals of the Tridentine Mass that has been removed.

Could you be more specific?

The new Offertory prayers do not express the Catholic notion of the sacrifice. They simply express the concept of a mere partaking of bread and wine. For instance, this Tridentine Mass addressed to God the prayer: “Accept O Holy Father, heavenly and eternal God, this immaculate victim which your unworthy servant offers to you, my living and true God to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligences.” The New Mass says: ‘We offer this bread as the bread of life.’ There is no mention of sacrifice or victim. This text is vague and imprecise, lends itself to ambiguity and was meant to be acceptable to Protestants. It is, however, unacceptable to the true Catholic faith and doctrine. The substance has been changed in favor of accommodation and compromise.

Why do you appear to attach such importance to the Latin Mass rather than the vernacular Mass approved by Vatican Council II?

First the question of the Latin Mass is a secondary question under certain circumstances. But under another aspect it is a very important question. It is important because it is a way to fix the word of our faith, the Catholic dogma and doctrines. It is a way of not changing our faith because in translations affecting these Latin words, one does not render exactly the truth of our faith as it is expressed and embodied in Latin.

It is indeed very dangerous because little by little one can lose faith itself. These translations do not reflect the exact words of the Consecration. These words are changed in the vernacular.

Could you give me an example?

Yes. For instance, in the vernacular, it is said that “the Precious Blood is for all.” When in the Latin text (even the latest, revised Latin text), the text says, “the Precious Blood is for many” and not for all. All is certainly different from many. This is only a minor example that illustrates the inaccuracies of current translations.

Could you quote a translation, which would actually contradict Catholic dogma?

Yes. For example, in the Latin text, the Virgin Mary is referred to as “Semper Virgo,” “always virgin.” In all the modern translations, the word “always” has been deleted. This is very serious because there is a great difference between “virgin” and “always virgin.” It is most dangerous to tamper with translations of this kind.

Latin is also important to keep the unity of the Church because when one travels - and people travel more and more in foreign countries these days - it is important for them to find the same echoes that they have heard from a priest at home, whether in the United States, South America, Europe or any other part of the world. They are at home in any church. It is their Catholic Mass, which is being celebrated. They have always heard the Latin words since childhood, their parents before them, and their grandparents before them. It is an identifying mark of their faith.
Now, when they go into a foreign church, they don’t understand a word. Foreigners who come here don’t understand a word. What is the good of going to a Mass in English, Italian or Spanish when no one can understand a word?

But wouldn’t most of these people understand Latin even less? What is the difference?

The difference is that the Latin of the Catholic Mass has always been taught through religious instruction since childhood. There have been numerous books on the matter. It has been taught throughout the, ages - it is not that difficult to remember.

Latin is an exact expression, which has been familiar to generations of Catholics. Whenever Latin is found in another Church, it immediately creates the proper atmosphere for the worship of God. It is the distinctive tongue of the Catholic faith, which unites all the Catholics throughout the world regardless of their national tongue.

They are not disoriented or baffled. They say: This is my Mass, it is the Mass of my parents, it is the Mass to follow, it is the Mass of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is the eternal and unchanging Mass. Therefore from the point of view of unity, it is a very important symbolic link; it is a mark of identity for all Catholics.

But it is far more serious than simply a change of tongue. Under the spirit of Ecumenism, it is an attempt to create a rapprochement with the Protestants.

What proof do you have of this?

It is quite evident because there were five Protestants who assisted in the reform of our Liturgy. The archbishop of Cincinnati, who was present during these deliberations, said that not only these five Protestants were present but also they took a very active part in the debates and participated directly in the reform of our Liturgy.  CONTD…

CONTD…

Who were these Protestants?

They were Protestant ministers representing different Protestant denominations who were called by Rome to participate in the reform of our Liturgy which shows clearly that there was a purpose to all this. They were Dr. George, Canon Jasper, Dr. Sheperd, Dr. Smith, Dr. Koneth and Dr. Thurian. Msgr. Bugnini did not hide this purpose. He spelled it out very clearly. He said, “We are going to make an Ecumenical Mass as we have made an Ecumenical Bible.”

All this is very dangerous because it is our faith that is attacked. When a Protestant celebrates the same Mass as we do, he interprets the text in a different way because his faith is different. Therefore, it is an ambiguous Mass. It is an equivocal Mass. It is no longer a Catholic Mass.

What Ecumenical Bible are you referring to?

There is an Ecumenical Bible made two or three years ago, which was recognized by many bishops. I do not know whether the Vatican publicly endorsed it, but it certainly did not suppress it because it is used in many dioceses. For instance, two weeks ago, the Bishop of Fribourg in Switzerland had Protestant pastors explaining this Ecumenical Bible to all the children of Catholic schools. These lessons were the same for Catholics and Protestants. And what has this Ecumenical Bible to do with the Word of God?

Since the Word of God cannot be changed, all this leads to more and more confusion. When I think that the archbishop of Houston, Texas will not allow Catholic children to be confirmed unless they go with their parents to follow a 15-day instruction course from the local rabbi and the local Protestant minister.

If the parents refuse to send their children to such instructions, they (the children) cannot get confirmed. They have to produce a signed certificate from the rabbi and the Protestant minister that both the parents and the children have duly attended the instruction and only then can they (the children) be confirmed by the bishop.

These are the absurdities with which we end up when we follow the liberal road. Not only this, but now we are even reaching the Buddhists and the Moslems. Many bishops were embarrassed when the representative of the pope was received in a shameful manner by the Moslems recently.
What happened?

I do not recall all the specific details, but this incident happened in Tripoli, Libya, where the representative of the pope wanted to pray with the Moslems. These Moslems refused and went about their separate ways and prayed in their fashion, leaving the representative high and dry, not knowing what to do. This illustrates the naiveté of these liberal Catholics who feel that it is enough to go and talk with these Moslems and for them to accept immediately a compromise of their own religion.

The mere fact of wanting to have a close relationship with the Moslems for that purpose only attracts the contempt of the Moslems toward us. It is a well-known fact that Moslems will never change anything of their religion; it is absolutely out of the question.

If the Catholics come to equate our religion with theirs, it only leads to confusion and contempt, which they take as an attempt to discredit their religion and not caring about our religion. They are far more respectful of anyone who says that, “I am a Catholic; I cannot pray with you because we do not have the same convictions.” This person is more respected by the Moslems than the one who says that all the religions are the same; that we all believe the same things; we all have the same faith. They feel this person is insulting them.

But doesn’t the Koran display moving verses of praise toward Mary and Jesus?

Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet and has great respect for Mary, and this certainly places Islam nearer to our religion than say, for instance, Judaism, which is far more distant from us. Islam was born in the 7th century and it has benefited to some degree from the Christian teachings of those days.

Judaism, on the other hand, is the heir to the system, which crucified our Lord. And the members of this religion, who have not converted to Christ, are those who are radically opposed to our Lord Jesus Christ. For them, there is no question whatever of recognizing our Lord.

They are in opposition to the very foundation and existence of the Catholic faith on this subject. However, we cannot both be right. Either Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Lord and Savior or He is not. This is one case where there cannot be the slightest compromise without destroying the very foundation of Catholic faith. This does not only apply to religions, which are directly opposed to the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God but also to religions, which, without opposing Him, do not recognize Him, as such.

Therefore you are very sure and dogmatic on this point?

Completely dogmatic. For example, the Moslems have a very different way to conceive God than we have. Their conception of God is very materialistic. It is not possible to say that their God is the same as our God.

But isn’t God the same God for all the people of the world?

Yes. I believe that God is the same God for the whole universe according to the faith of the Catholic Church. But the conception of God differs greatly from religion to religion. Our Catholic faith is the one and only true faith. If one does not believe in it absolutely, one cannot claim to be a Catholic. Our faith is the one that in the world we cannot compromise in any way. God as conceived by the Moslems says: “When God says to His believers, ‘When you go to paradise, you will be a hundred times richer than you are now on earth. This also applies to the number of wives that you have here on earth’.” This conception of God is hardly what our Lord and Savior is about.

Why do you attach more importance to Pope St. Pius V than to Pope Paul VI? After all, both are equally pope. Do you not accept the doctrine of papal infallibility? Do you feel that this doctrine applies more to one than the other?

I feel that on the side that Pope St. Pius V wanted to engage his infallibility because he used all the terms that all the popes traditionally and generally used when they want(ed) to manifest their infallibility. On the other hand, Pope Paul VI said himself that he didn’t want to use his infallibility.

When did he indicate that?

He indicated this by not pronouncing his infallibility on any matter of faith as other popes have done throughout history. None of the decrees of Vatican II were issued with the weight of infallibility. Further, he has never engaged his infallibility on the subject of the Mass. He has never employed terms that have been employed by Pope St. Pius V when he (Paul VI) decided to allow this new Mass to be foisted on the faithful. I cannot compare the two acts of promulgation because they are completely different.

Has Pope Paul VI ever said that he did not believe in papal infallibility?

No. He never actually said this categorically. But Pope Paul VI is a liberal and he does not believe in the fixity of dogmas. He does not believe that a dogma must remain unchanged forever. He is for some evolution according to the wishes of men. He is for changes that are originated by humanist and modernist sources. And this is why he has so much trouble in fixing a truth forever. In fact, he is loathe to do so personally and he is very ill at ease whenever such cases have arisen.

This attitude reflects the spirit of modernism. The pope has never employed his infallibility in the matter of faith and morals to date.

Has the pope stated himself that he was a liberal or modernist?

Yes. The pope has manifested this in the council, which is not a pastoral council. He has also clearly stated so in his encyclical called Ecclesiam Suam. He has stated that his encyclicals would not define matters but he wished that they would be accepted as advice and lead to a dialogue. In his Credo, he said that he did not wish to employ his infallibility, which clearly shows where his leanings are.

Do you feel that his evolution toward dialogue is what allows you not to be in disagreement with the pope?

Yes. From the liberal standpoint they should allow this dialogue. When the pope does not use his infallibility on the subject of faith and morals, one is very much freer to discuss his words and his acts. From my point of view, I am bound to oppose what has taken place because it subverts the infallible teachings of the popes over 2,000 years. I am, however, not in favor of such dialogues because one cannot seriously dialogue about the truth of the Catholic faith. So really this is an inverted dialogue, which is forced upon me.

What would happen if the pope suddenly utilized his infallibility to order you to obey him? What would you do?

In the measure where the pope would employ his infallibility as the successor of St. Peter in a solemn manner, I believe that the Holy Ghost would not allow the pope to be in error at this very moment. Of course, I would heed the pope then.

But if the pope invoked his infallibility to back the changes you so strongly object to now, what would your attitude be then?

The question does not even arise, because, fortunately, the Holy Ghost is always there and the Holy Ghost would make sure that the pope would not use his infallibility for something that would be contrary to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. It is for this very reason that the pope does not employ his infallibility because the Holy Ghost would not allow such changes to take place under the imprimatur of infallibility.
But if this should come to pass?

It is inconceivable, but if it did, the church would cease to exist. That would mean there would be no God, because God would be contradicting Himself, which is impossible.

But isn’t the fact that Pope Paul VI occupies the seat of St. Peter enough for you to heed whatever the pontiff as the vicar of Christ on earth asks you to do, just as other Catholics do?

Unfortunately, this is an error. It is a misconception of papal infallibility because since the Council of Vatican I, when the dogma of infallibility was proclaimed, the pope was already infallible. This was not a sudden invention. Infallibility was then far better understood than it is now because it was well known then that the pope was not infallible on everything under the sun.

He was only infallible in very specific matters of faith and morals. At that time, many enemies of the church did all they could to ridicule this dogma and propagate misconceptions. For example, the enemies of the church often said to the unknowing and naive that if the pope said a dog was a cat, it was the duty of Catholics blindly to accept this position without any question.

Of course this was an absurd interpretation and the Catholics knew that. This time the same enemies of the church, now that it serves their purpose, are working very hard to have whatever the pope says accepted, without question, as infallible, almost as if his words were uttered by our Lord Jesus Christ himself.

This impression, although widely promoted, is nevertheless utterly false.
Infallibility is extremely limited, only bearing on very specific cases which Vatican I has very well defined and detailed. It is not possible to say that whenever the pope speaks he is infallible. The fact is that the pope is a liberal, that all this liberal trend has taken place at the Council of Vatican II, and created a direction for the destruction of the church - a destruction which one expects to happen any day.

After all of these liberal ideas have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the church, I am now being asked to align myself with these liberal ideas. Because I have not aligned myself with these liberal ideas that would destroy the church, there are attempts to suppress my seminaries. And it is for this reason that I am asked to stop ordaining priests.

Enormous pressure is being exerted on me to align myself and to accept this orientation of destruction of the church, a path which I cannot follow. I do not accept to be in contradiction with what the popes have asserted for 20 centuries. Both myself and those who support me obey all the popes who have preceded us, or we obey the present pope. If we do (obey the present pope, i.e. Paul VI), we then disobey all the popes that have preceded us. Finally we end up disobeying the Catholic faith and God.
But as the bishops (of old) obeyed the popes of their days, shouldn’t you obey the pope of your day?

The bishops do not have to obey the humanist orders that contradict Catholic faith and doctrine as established by Jesus Christ and all the various popes throughout the centuries.

So then are you deliberately choosing to disobey the present pope?
It has been a soul-searching and painful choice because events have really made it a choice of whom you disobey rather than whom you obey. I am making this choice without doubt or hesitation. I have chosen to disobey the present pope so that I could be in communion with 262 (former) popes.

Your independence has been attributed by several observers to a tradition of Gallicanism.2

On the contrary, I’m completely Roman and not at all Gallican. I’m for the pope as successor of St. Peter in Rome. All we ask is that the pope be, in fact, St. Peter’s successor, not the successor of J.J. Rousseau, the Freemasons, the humanists, the modernists and (the) liberals.

Since you have said that these ideas have been widely spread and accepted throughout the world, including within the church, do you not consider you are taking on too much? How do you expect the Society of St. Pius X to counteract such a trend against what would appear overwhelming odds?
I trust our Lord the Saviour. The priests of the Society of St. Pius X trust our Lord and I have no doubt that God is inspiring us all. All those who fight for the true faith have God’s full support. Of course, compared to the liberal machine, we are very small. I could die tomorrow.

But God is allowing me to live a little longer so that I can help others in fighting for the true faith. It has happened before in the church. True Catholics had to work for the survival of the faith under general opprobrium and persecution from those who pretended to be Catholics. It is a small price to pay for being on the side of Jesus Christ.
When did this happen?

It happened with the very first pope. St. Peter was leading the faithful in error by his bad example of following Mosaic Laws. St. Paul refused to obey this order and led the opposition to it. Paul won out and St. Peter rescinded his error.

In the fourth century. St. Athanasius refused to obey Pope Liberius’s orders. At that time, the church had been infiltrated by the ideas of the Arian heresy and the pope had been pressured to go along- with them. St. Athanasius led the opposition against this departure from church doctrine.
He was attacked mercilessly by the hierarchy. He was suspended. When he refused to submit, he was excommunicated. The opposition to the heresy finally built up momentum and at the death of Pope Liberius, a new pope occupied St. Peter’s seat and recognized the church’s indebtedness to St. Athanasius. The excommunication was lifted. He was recognized as a savior of the church and canonized.

In the seventh century, Pope Honorius I favored the Monotheletism heresy - the proposition that Jesus Christ did not possess a human will and hence was not a true man. Many Catholics who knew the church doctrines refused to accept this and did everything they could to stop the spread of this heresy.

The Council of Constantinople condemned Honorius I in 681 and anathematized him. There are many more examples of this nature when true Catholics stood up against apparent great odds, not to destroy or change the church but to keep the true faith.

I do not consider the odds overwhelming. One of the major aims of our society is to ordain priests - real priests - so that the Sacrifice of the Mass will continue; so that catechisms will continue; so that the Catholic faith will continue. Of course some bishops attack and criticize us. Some try to thwart our mission. But this is only temporary because when all the seminaries will be empty – they are almost empty now - what will the bishops do? Then there will be no more priests.

Why do you think there will be no more priests?

Because the seminaries of today are not teaching anything about the making of a priest; they teach liberal psychology, sociology, humanism, modernism and many other sciences and semi sciences that are either contrary to Catholic doctrine or have nothing whatever to do with church teachings or with what a priest should know. As for Catholic teachings, they are hardly being taught in today’s seminaries.

What is being taught in the seminaries today?

For instance, in a New York seminary, theology professors are teaching seminarians that, “Jesus did not necessarily see what the result of His death on the Cross would be;” that: “No one is so thoroughly consistent that he does not say something that disagrees with what he said in the past. This even applies to Jesus;” that, “Joseph may have been the natural father of Christ;” and another professor teaches that: “One psychiatrist recommends extramarital sexual relations as a cure for impotence - I am open in this area and not closed to possibilities.”
Are these statements documented and on record?

Yes.

Have they been brought to the attention of the hierarchy?

On numerous occasions,

Has the hierarchy made any attempt to stop such similar teachings?

Not to my knowledge.

Do you ever feel alone and isolated?

How can I feel alone when I am in communion with 262 popes and the whole of the Catholic faith? If you mean alone among other bishops, the answer is no. Hardly a day goes by that I (do not) receive some communication from some bishops, some priests, some laymen from different parts of the world expressing support and encouragement.

Why do they not come out publicly and support you?

As I have mentioned previously, many feel that they want to keep their positions in order to be in a position to do something about it should the occasion arise.

Does your stand separate you further from other Christian denominations?

Not at all. Only five days ago, some Orthodox heads came to see me to express their support for our stand.

Why should they express support when in fact you say that you are right and they are in error?

It is precisely because my stand is unequivocal that they support me.

Many other Christian denominations have always looked at Rome as something of a stabilizing anchor in a tumultuous world. Whatever happened, they felt, Rome was always there, eternal, unchanging.
This presence gave them comfort and confidence.

Even more surprising are the Islamic leaders who have warmly congratulated me on my stand even though they fully know that I do not accept their religion.

Would not Christian charity try to avoid solidifying differences and divisions that could be healed?

Differences and divisions are part of this world. The unity of the church can only be gained by example and unswerving commitment to our Catholic faith. Charity starts with loyalty to one’s faith.

What makes you believe that significant numbers of Orthodox, Protestants or Moslems support you?

Apart from direct, frequent contact these people have made with me, there was, for example, an extensive survey conducted by a reputable newspaper in Paris and they have surveyed members of these various denominations. The result was that far from finding our faith offensive or threatening to them, they admired the unequivocal stand, which we are taking.

On the other hand, they show utter contempt for all those liberal Catholics who were trying to make a mishmash of our Catholic faith as well as their religion.

Has not the pope invited you to be reconciled? Have you accepted this invitation?

I requested to see the pope last August. The pope refused unless I signed a statement accepting unconditionally all the resolutions of Vatican II. I would very much like to see the pope, but I cannot sign resolutions paving the way for the destruction of the church.

How can you be loyal to the church and disobedient to the pope?

One must understand the meaning of obedience and must distinguish between blind obedience and the virtue of obedience. Indiscriminate obedience is actually a sin against the virtue of obedience.

So if we disobey in order to practice the virtue of obedience rather than submit to unlawful commands contrary to Catholic moral teachings, all one has to do is to consult any Catholic theology books to realize we are not sinning against the virtue of obedience.

________________________________________
1 The followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre insist on preserving the so-called Tridentine Mass. This was the Mass (and attendant ritual) that followed upon the Council of Trent (Trento, Italy) and that was pronounced as permanent and irrevocable by Pope St. Pius V in 1570. This is the Mass that Latin Rite Roman Catholics knew for 400 years until the service was rewritten after Vatican Council II (1962-1965).

2 Gallicanism, associated with French Roman Catholicism, was a tradition of resistance to papal authority. There were two aspects of Gallicanism, royal and ecclesiastical. The first asserted the rights of French monarchs over the French Roman Catholic Church; the second asserted the rights of general councils over the pope. Both were condemned as heresies at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

Courtesy of the Angelus Press, Regina Coeli House
2918 Tracy Avenue, Kansas City, MO 64109
Vol. V, No. 6, June 1982

Why are you posting this?

Angelo, You say it is hard for you to believe there were no Catholics at Assisi.  What is a martyr, Angelo?  A martyr defends the faith with his life and will not participate in mockeries.  The universal salvation new theology portrayed in the Assisi’s is dangerous and has formulated a one world religion and church.
You say don’t fuel the fire!!  That’s absurd, Angelo. Catholics do not support these shenanigans that war against God and His Church.  You cannot connect the dots to pre and post Vatican II church and religion.  You cannot list the similarities because it is not possible.
You may find my positions distorted because your positions are founded upon a new church and a new religion fabricated by human hands that began with the Council of Vatican II.
As for the appearance you claim by Our Blessed Mother, it is bogus considering who decided its credibility.

A question:  “Why do you attach more importance to Pope St. Pius V than to Pope Paul VI? After all, both are equally pope.”

Paul VI contradicted his predecessor.  Popes do not correct nor contradict their predecessors but safeguard what has been handed on.  If a pope is to contradict, it is to say the Holy Spirit can teach error and that’s the position you’ve accepted? 
What a horror!!  Run to the nearest exit of the church you attend.

@Candy:  How about framing your thoughts in 100 words (or less?).

@Candy:  [“Has not the pope invited you to be reconciled?  Have you accepted this invitation?”]  We do not need any invitation other than by Christ alone to be reconciled.  His death on Calvary has already reconciled our sins for all who believe.  The pope will not be standing with you at the judgment. 

Angelo,

More than anything else, by your own admission, your pride has been hurt grievously.

Angelo, I have an uncle, a Benedictine monk, a doctor of theology, a bishop who was also a council father.

He was a liberal and a heretic who led countless souls astray.  Even today there are remnants of his heretical works and the destructive aftermath of his teaching and actions.  He too must be in the company of JPII, Martini doing the fox trot in a very hot place…some of the gang who have tried and are trying to destroy the church.

I only teach what the Church has passed down, upheld, taught and defended for over one thousand nine hundred and fifty odd years. I teach the Creed of the Catholic Church.  I do not teach the contradictions of past doctrine, that Vatican II promulgated.  I am more than certain that 267 odd popes, starting with Peter can never be wrong. I am solidly behind them. What was heresy, idolatry and sin yesterday can NEVER be TRUTH TODAY.

“By their fruits you shall know them” Jesus said.

Today we are seeing and experiencing the fruits of Vatican II.

• Bishops, priests and nuns openly disobedient to the True teachings of the church as passed down through the Apostles,

• In Canada all, and the US almost all the bishops openly rejected Pope Paul VI’s Encyclical “Humane Vitae” that foretold the crisis we are experiencing today.  Go read it.
 
• Breakdown in Marriage and Family Life,

• Divorce

• Open adultery is now fashionable even among Catholics

• abortion

• Catholics against abortion but don’t want health care for people once born

• contraception

• immorality

• homosexual marriage;

• homosexual lifestyle is now normalized and people are forced to accept it

• decline in vocations to the priesthood and religious life;

• malformed priestly and nuns – departing from their founders Rule and Constitution

• desecration of churches

• desecration of the Most Holy Eucharist

• clown masses

• Closing of churches and religious institutions, i.e. hospitals…

• Catholic educational institutions poisoned with secularism, paganism in the name of inclusiveness,

• syncreticism - all religions are the same;

• “We worship the same god as muslims” in direct contradiction to what Jesus Himself said and what peter and the Apostles said and what all Popes, Doctors of the Church and Saints upheld up to the time of JPII.

• Faithful gone astray, confused and lost to islam and other religions

• atheism,

• secularism

• And the list goes on and on and on…..

I was once in a Catholic church where the priests openly said, “we don’t have to obey the pope, we must follow our conscience.”  Those priests are still there. This is in keeping with Martini on whose post we are discussing…

As I said in my previous posts, the young priests I have been fortunate to meet with and work with are the hope of the Catholic church.  It is in them that the words of our Lord is fulfilled, 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt.16:18

19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: AND BEHOLD I AM WITH YOU ALL DAYS, EVEN TO THE CONSUMMATION OF THE WORLD. Matt. 28:20

JESUS NEVER COMMANDED POPES TO PREACH FALSE RELIGIONS.  IN FACT HE WARNED US.
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; lo, he is here: do not believe. For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets, and they shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce (if it were possible) even the elect.Mark 13:21, 22-23

Take you heed therefore; behold I have foretold you all things But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven shall be falling down, and the powers that are in heaven, shall be moved.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away

@Candy:  [“I requested to see the pope last August. The pope refused unless I signed a statement accepting unconditionally all the resolutions of Vatican II.”]  Candy, that’s hilarious.  You Traditionalists at one end of the spectrum and the pope forcing you to sign documents at the extreme other end.  Both of you are practicing what Jesus never taught—legalism.  You confuse a relationship with Christ *personally* with that of keeping rules and regulations of an institutional church.

@Candy:  Show us where salvation is condtional upon your keeping all the resolutions of Vatican II?  You cannot.  You are living under deception just like the Jew —weighted down by 62,000 pages of the Talmud.  So much for a “joyous” and abundant life in Christ Jesus !!!  Good Grief, Charlie Brown !!!  (Or in your case, Candy Brown).  LOL.

Castin Crowns I think I agree with your rebuttals to Candy, but I don’t understand “what and who are YOU?”  If you are embarrassed to be a Traditional Catholic, than you are your own pope, practicing your own religion or a ‘home aloner’?  Can you explain, please.

The posts are sooo long, I’ve lost track of who or never understood ‘what’ you really believe.

It is a consequence of the Church’s infallibility that the doctrine contained in any new teaching must not contradict doctrine that had previously been taught “always and everywhere” in the Church. If a new “teaching” does contradict what was taught before, then the new teaching is obviously not infallible. This is confirmed by the infallible proclamation of Vatican Council I on July 18, 1870:

“For the Holy Ghost WAS NOT PROMISED to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of Faith [Tradition], and might faithfully set it forth.”
THE CONTRADICTIONS OF VATICAN II. 

ECUMENISM

1.“IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO HAPPEN THAT CATHOLICS WHO MIX THEMSELVES WITH HERETICS OR SCHISMATICS IN ANY ACT OF WORSHIP MIGHT BE WORTHY TO BE EXCUSED FROM THIS SHAMEFUL CRIME.”
- POPE BENEDICT XIV, De Synodo Bk. VI, Chap. 5, Art. 2, 1748.

1.  “It is allowable, indeed desirable, that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren.”
- Decree on Ecumenism, #8.

2.  [IT IS AN ERROR TO SAY THAT] “IN THE WORSHIP OF ANY RELIGION WHATEVER, MEN CAN FIND THE WAY TO ETERNAL SALVATION, AND CAN ATTAIN ETERNAL SALVATION.”
- POPE PIUS IX, SYLLABUS OF ERRORS, ERROR #16, DEC. 8, 1864.

2.“The brethren divided from us also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion… these actions… can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation.”
- Decree on Ecumenism, #3.

MODERN WORLD

3.“IT IS NOT FITTING THAT THE CHURCH OF GOD BE CHANGED ACCORDING TO THE FLUCTUATIONS OF WORLDLY NECESSITY.”
- POPE PIUS VI, QUOD ALIQUANTUM, MAR. 10, 1791.

3.“the Church… can and ought to be enriched by the development of human social life… so that she may… adjust it [the Constitution of the Church] more successfully to our times.”
- Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, #44.

4.“NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS, FOR TO PLEASE ONE AMOUNTS TO CONTEMNING THE OTHER…IT IS A HIGH CRIME INDEED TO WITHDRAW ALLEGIANCE FROM GOD IN ORDER TO PLEASE MEN.” - POPE LEO XIII, SAPPIENTIÆ CHRISTIANÆ, #6&7, JAN. 10, 1890

4.“Christians cannot yearn for anything more ardently than to serve the men of the modern world.”
- Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, #93.

RELIGIOUS LIBERTY

5.“THEY DO NOT FEAR TO FOSTER THAT ERRONEOUS OPINION, ESPECIALLY FATAL TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND TO THE SALVATION OF SOULS…NAMELY THAT ?LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE AND OF WORSHIP IS A RIGHT PROPER TO EVERY MAN, AND SHOULD BE PROCLAIMED AND ASSERTED BY LAW IN EVERY CORRECTLY ESTABLISHED SOCIETY.? ”
- POPE PIUS IX, QUANTA CURA, #3, DEC. 8, 1864

5.“The human person has the right to religious freedom…this right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed. Thus it is to become a civil right.”
- Declaration on Religious Freedom, #2.

6. [IT IS AN ERROR TO SAY THAT] “IN THIS AGE OF OURS IT IS NO LONGER EXPEDIENT THAT THE CATHOLIC RELIGION SHOULD BE THE ONLY RELIGION OF THE STATE, TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER CULTS WHATSOEVER.”
- POPE PIUS IX, SYLLABUS OF MODERN ERRORS, ERROR #77, DEC. 8, 1864.

6. “a wrong is done when government imposes upon its people…the profession or repudiation of any religion…government is not to act…in an unfair spirit of partisanship.”
- Declaration on Religious Freedom, #6&7.

7. “MEN WHO REALLY BELIEVE IN GOD MUST… UNDERSTAND THAT DIFFERING MODES OF WORSHIP… CANNOT ALL BE EQUALLY PROBABLE, EQUALLY GOOD, AND EQUALLY ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.”
- POPE LEO XIII, IMMORTALE DEI, #31, NOV. 1, 1885.

7. “The right of all… religious bodies to religious freedom should be recognized and made effective in practice.”
- Declaration on Religious Freedom, #4&6.

COLLEGIALITY

8.“THE AUTHORITY OF PETER AND HIS SUCCESSORS IS PLENARY AND SUPREME ...THE BISHOPS… DO NOT RECEIVE PLENARY, OR UNIVERSAL, OR SUPREME AUTHORITY.”
- POPE LEO XIII, SATIS COGNITUM, #14, JUNE 29, 1896

8.“Together with its head, the Roman Pontiff… the episcopal order is the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church.”
- Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, #22.

TRUTH

9.“CHRIST HAS ENTRUSTED HIS CHURCH WITH ALL TRUTH.”
- POPE PIUS XII, MAR. 9, 1956.

9. .(11) In fidelity to “Christians are joined with the rest of men in the search for truth.”
- Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, #16.

The subject discussed here simply cannot be explained in a few words. Especially when dealing with imposters, heretics and as St. Paul calls some ignoramuses.

Those who don’t want the Truth, the sources of what is discussed, can’t read or comprehend, should not be in the fray.

Vatican II had thousands upon thousands of erroneous mixed with truth documents….

as someone said.  one drop of poison mixed with purity, poisons the whole.  Here we had a lot of poison and ambiguity mixed in with truth which is even more dangerous.

Thanks to the Wolves posing as angels of light like Cardinal Martini.  Thank God he is dead.

It’s hot down there Candy - don’t overdress.

Celinedesilva, I found the interview with Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre quite interesting. He says that Pope Paul Vl refused to use infallibility, then changes that it is merely his opinion. When Paul Vl died, the commentators in the news were correct, “Pope Paul Vl will go down in history as the Pope who was never listened to.” When Paul Vl spoke about the Charismatic Movement he had this to say, “There are those in the Church today who say that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them. If this spirit says anything contrary to the teachings of the Church, I DECLARE it is not the Holy Spirit.” Note the words “I DECLARE” those are the words of Papal Infallibility. Pope Paul Vl contrary to what Lefebvre says, stated, “At the Council when we spoke of freedom it was not the freedom to do as one wishes, but freedom from sin.” Lefebvre states that the Pope did not want him to ordain real priests. The fact is that Pope Paul Vl ordered him not to ordain anymore priests because his faculties were suspended and by Canon Law he could not even say Mass. All of the problems that Lefebvre describes have all been addressed by Pope Paul Vl, Bl. John Paul ll, and now Pope Benedict XVl. But like Pope Paul Vl ultra-traditionalist and liberals refuse to listen. Then they turn and blame Vatican ll for what is their own wrong doing. I assre you every problem Lefebvre points to and much more problems have been addressed. Lefebvre says he signed all the V2 Documents except 2. 3 Years ago the Vatican put on display all the original Documents of V2, pointing that each of the 16 Documents were sighned by Lefebvre. Lefevre as I said before had some form of Catholic schizophrenic understanding, contradicting himself many times over. This in my observation is only the tip of the iceberg. As I said before Lefebvre lost credibility with many of his followers, I being one of them.

The day of the Lord is not to come till the man of sin be revealed. The apostle’s traditions are to be observed.

[1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him:

[2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

[4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.

[5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[3] A revolt: This revolt, or falling off, is generally understood, by the ancient fathers, of a revolt from the Roman empire, which was first to be destroyed, before the coming of Antichrist. It may, perhaps, be understood also of a revolt of many nations from the Catholic Church; which has, in part, happened already, by means of Mahomet, Luther, &c., and it may be supposed, will be more general in the days of the Antichrist.

[3] The man of sin: Here must be meant some particular man, as is evident from the frequent repetition of the Greek article: ‘the man of sin, ‘the son of perdition, ‘the adversary or opposer. It agrees to the wicked and great Antichrist, who will come before the end of the world.

[4] In the temple: Either that of Jerusalem which some think he will rebuild; or in some Christian church, which he will pervert to his own worship: as Mahomet has done by the churches of the east.

[6] And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time.

[7] For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.

[8] And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, [9] Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, [2 Thessalonians 2:9]

[Latin] [10] And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

[10] God shall send: That is God shall suffer them to be deceived by lying wonders, and false miracles, in punishment of their not entertaining the love of truth.

[11] That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.

[12] But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth:

[13] Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

[15] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,

[14] Traditions: See here that the unwritten traditions are no less to be received than their epistles.

[16] Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word.

Great discussion.  I haven’t read this blog in a few days, & am now just catching up.  Some very pertinent information is here.  While it’s hard to read everything, “Cut and Paste Candy” did a good job of providing resources for her conclusions for us.  So for that - thank you, Candy! (aka: Celinedesilva).

One reference is this about Paul VI and his comment about something not being from the Holy Spirit:
“It is a consequence of the Church’s infallibility that the doctrine contained in any new teaching must not contradict doctrine that had previously been taught “always and everywhere” in the Church. If a new “teaching” does contradict what was taught before, then the new teaching is obviously not infallible. This is confirmed by the infallible proclamation of Vatican Council I on July 18, 1870: ‘For the Holy Ghost WAS NOT PROMISED to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine…’”

Seems to me the above is precisely what St. Paul wrote in his epistles to churches in his day, WARNING them against “some new doctrine”, even saying if *angels* preached a different gospel to the people, they need to disregard it.  “Always and everywhere” is, in my understanding, a reference to the “Universal Church”, the Body of Christ.

I believe the universal church is alive and well, it is REFORMED, and in alignment with what Paul wrote in his letters that were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  So my mother, father & brother, still Evangelical Christians, and I, a Catholic convert, are ALL members of the Body of Christ, and of the “universal church” against which we are assured that Satan will never prevail.

As for Paul VI being wrong: he’s in good company.  If he was wrong, St. Peter was wrong too & corrected at the Council of Jerusalem. That was after Pentecost too, and during the days of church growth.

@Angelo - have you been able to hear what is in each Eucharistic Prayer, about what we are doing at Mass is a “Memorial” of Christ’s Passion, Death and Resurrection?  It’s very clear, in English language missals.
I write from the USA. 

“.....Vatican II had thousands upon thousands of erroneous mixed with truth documents….”

Yes, purposely contrived to deceive.  Paul VI promulgated these errors along with Eucharist Prayers in the protestanized version of a Mass replacing the Canon of the Mass.  As people pray, so they believe.  Legitimate bishops and priests will not participate in the mass, “Designed By Human Hands”.

There is not a “truth document” in Vatican II.  Each one of the 16 documents has concepts of a modernized “evolving of truth” theology to refute Tradition.  The council turned its back on its own history and produced a shockingly new religion intended to ‘blend in’ with the world.  The council minimized Christ and His Church and deified man.

@Joe - Will you provide the top 3 errors for us?

I always loved the Novos Ordo Mass, and felt it was the perfect prayer.  It would engage me.  Now, the Mass is stiffer, more formal.  Instead of communing with a family, at home, it’s more like being out at an opera, and feeling uncomfortable.

I’m not cutting our worship - so if you like it, or Angelo likes it, that’s okay.  I’m just sharing that of the two versions of liturgies, I preferred the previous Novo Ordo, that encouraged participation, at every level.

What does “protestantized” mean?  My family of origin remains Evangelical Christian.  They worship - and the ultimate worship of God is to get to know Him better, to love Him & to serve Him, by loving & serving others.  Wouldn’t you agree?

This comment board is so entertaining!  Some of you are sooooo far off the deep end!

Terah James on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2012 6:06 PM (EST):@Joe - Will you provide the top 3 errors for us?

Religious Liberty, ecumenism and ‘subsists in’ are 3 of the 100 plus errors.

@  Celine Dion:  [“The apostle’s traditions are to be observed.”]  Absolutely, and you do know that an apostle is one who has seen Christ (which includes Paul).  A disciple is one who follows Christ.  Thus, in response to all your legalism which distracts your mind away from Christ, I will refer you to Romans 8:1 —“Therefore, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.”  Paul’s “Therefore” means based upon what you have now learned in Chapters 1 thru 7.

Casting Crown, by your analysis, there are no guidelines or restraints. There are commandments handed on beginning with “thou shalt Not”....and he who is not obedient to these Commandments is an enemy of God and has violated the natural rights of others.  BTW, there are anathemas pronounced by Pontiffs to be handed on and safeguarded by subsequent Vicars of Christ and which binds all Catholics.

@Joe:  We do not have open freedom to sin.  Of course we are to obey God in His commands and precepts.  If the Lord is first in your life, centering your existence in primacy upon keeping rules and laws is the wrong approach to honoring the Father.

@ Celine Dion:  Your intense focus and preoccupation with the ills of Vatican II remind me of the Catholic Charismatic convention I attended a few months back in May.  The majority of the people were not centered upon Jesus (the Christ).  Moreover, they were preoccupied with how to attain Spiritual gifts.  They were more concerned with gifts than the “gift giver.”  It’s like the environmental movement —they worship the created rather than the “creator.”  Imagine such a sight —Catholic women more desirous to speak in tongues of gibberish instead of humbling themselves before the Lord and walking in His presence.  The priests, Bishop and guest speakers failed to even broach the topic of humility and right standing before the Father.  All these concerns take your mind away from total trust and obedience in Christ.  Jesus is not concerned regarding Vatican I, II or VII.  He is concerned that you obey Him and share His gospel with a lost generation.  He is not concerned with legalism.  He is more concerned with conforming your life into the image and likeness of His Son (Jesus).

[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. [Apocalypse (Revelation) 1:8

***[8] As it is written: God hath given them the spirit of insensibility; eyes that they should not see; and ears that they should not hear, until this present day. [Romans 11:8] [9] And David saith: Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them. [10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see:

*** [8] God hath given them: Not by his working or acting in them; but by his permission, and by withdrawing his grace in punishment of their obstinacy.

[16] Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves [Matthew 10:14]

[5] And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off even the dust of your feet, for a testimony against them. [Luke 9:5]

1] There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

[2] FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE, IN CHRIST JESUS, HATH DELIVERED ME FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND OF DEATH

[4] THAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.

[5] For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit.

[6] For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.

[7] BECAUSE THE WISDOM OF THE FLESH IS AN ENEMY TO GOD; FOR IT IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD, neither can it be. [8] And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God

Casting Crown, St. Cyprian said, “He who does not have Church as Mother cannot have God as Father”.  It is easy for any of us to misunderstand specifics of what God said and none of us have the ability to totally conceive the meaning of Sacred Scripture.  We need the guidance of the Church Christ established.  I once believed in reincarnation because it like so many modernist / new age practices appear to be supported in scripture.  We are fallible beings who need the Magisterium to assist in the forming of our conscience.

Celinedesilva - You’ve posted contradictions of the Second Vatican II Council to the principles and precepts of the Roman Catholic Church.  Thank you for pointing out the council’s many errors which indicates that it contrived a new theology in order to refute the past teachings of the R C C.  Unprecedented, to say the least, yet counciliarists still maintain they are Catholics, as do you, it appears.  Am I wrong?

Martini: Raffi Says Farewell to a Man of Dialogue,
a Grand Expression of the Church-Word

“A man of dialogue and profound culture, who knew how to speak to the youth and was always open to facing change. He had a strong spirituality; he was a grand expression of the Church-Word, that is, of that ‘kerigma’ which goes beyond all structure and convention.” These are the words of Gustavo Raffi, Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Italy, commemorating Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, who passed away today at the age of 85.

“He believed in ecumenism and dialogue with civil society and other religions, starting with Judaism,” Raffi continues: “His great humanity and the example of his reflections addressing the great themes of human life will be missed by believers and non-believers.” The Grand Master concludes: “On every occasion he always knew how to look into the eyes of others, searching together for the truth…...”
http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_153_Martini.html

QUO GRAVIORA (on secret societies)

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF POPE LEO XII
March 13, 1826

@Joe:  How is an understanding or interpretation of a “saint” more valuabale than yours?  Christ promised the Holy Spirit would come to live inside the lives of all who would follow Him and not just a select “few.”  Brother Cyprian is offering his viewpoint.  He is not the author of the gospel nor is he a biblical author of any Scripture.

@Candy:  [“There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.”]  And —what does this mean to you?  Please, no more Copy & Paste responses.  In your own words, this time.

Casting Crown,  we would all be better people if we read the lives of the Saints daily to grasp the significance of their lives.  Now I don’t know all the necessary steps required to certify Sainthood, but it is in depth years of investigations and not like the factory of saints of post Vatican 2.  We’ve all been called to sainthood.  Most will not win the prize of Sainthood because we are not willing to be diligent, persevere, be faithful and obedient.  We would rather do it our way, so the song goes.  The Roman Catholic Church is the foundation to build our lives upon.  We will not accomplish the reason for our existence separated from the R C C.(and only God knows the heart).
  The sanctifying graces from the Sacraments are necessary for us to withstand the sufferings here on earth.  These graces are to complete the journey of Church Militant so that we spend as little time as possible in Church Suffering before entering Church Triumphant.  Likewise, as we pray for those now in Church Suffering they will in turn pray for our safe journey Home when they have arrived safely with Our Father in Heaven.

Can anyone deny conciliarists are hell bent on building a ‘one world order church and religion’ that denies Christ Crucified for His Church?
“We stand with Mormons as Christ’s witnesses, says Utah’s Catholic bishop…..”
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54921756-78/wester-catholic-bishop-christ.html.csp

@Joe: Church triumphant is that His kingdom is already at hand so I do not view attacks upon the church as sufferings.  The victory has already been won.  Calvary has already decided that battle.  Militancy and refusal to accept cultural wickedness and all manner of evil and ungodliness—yes, we must stand against.  I do not view these attacks as “sufferings.”  In fact, the gospel says/Jesus says:  “Rejoice and be glad.”  Paul says to “Count it all joy.”  If we see ourselves (or the church) as a victim—then you ARE a victim.  I see us as already victorious.  The Lord goes before us in EVERY battle as champion.

@Joe:  Mormons are not witnesses for Christ.  They use many terms and words consistent with Christianity.  They are fine and decent people.  However, their beliefs are not consistent with the gospel nor the Scriptures.  I am quite troubled if the Bishop of Utah actually made the statement you reference.  If true, He understands very, very little of what the LDS believes.  To me, that is extremely shocking for the Bishop to make such a statement.  Because someone has a title or wears a collar does not grant them sacred immunity from questioning what they say.

Casting Crowns,  Did you check out the source I referenced?  Truth is stranger and stronger and more provoking than fiction.  The U S Bishops are Assisi Meeting(s) men - they believe in the heresies of indifferentism and universal salvation.  These men in black do not proclaim the principles and precepts of Holy Mother the Church, yet conciliarists still claim the Vatican 2 new religion is Catholic.  Go FIGURE!

Casting Crown,  You do not have sufferings in your life?  C C – we ALL need a plumb line for truth which is only in the Roman Catholic Church.  We cannot decide on our own what is morally correct.  We are too fragile and have the weight of original sin influencing us until the day we die.  Submission and obedience to all the teachings of the R C C is a sure protection.  Christ gave us the perfect example of how to conduct our lives.  Was His without suffering???  What about the martyrs, C C?  Did they suffer and die for naught?
What do you mean, the Church as victim?  We cannot claim triumphant and glorious until we are seated in Heaven.  A mature Catholic will count sufferings as joy.  I’m not there yet.  You claim you are, but as a lone ranger, I don’t think so, C C!!

@Joe:  Agreed.  Heresy.  Universal salvation is false gospel promoted by “feel good” Catholics and some bogus Christians as well.  They bask in their deception that “God loves you” and dismiss He also a God of justice to hold you to account.  “Everyone is going to Heaven” —yeah, we have one of those New Age nuns running the RCIA and is also the Pastoral Associate in a local parish.  She’s been promoting this nonsense for almost 15 years.

@Joe:  I prefer Kingdom living, thus what the world may view as my sufferings, I do not.  I merely offer them up as nothing compared to the glory to come.  Given Paul’s experience of being shipwrecked, beaten, whipped, ridiculed, thrown into prison and laughed at, He never saw Himself as a victim.  When you surrender your will to Christ, THIS is what Jesus meant by the “denial of self.”  Your victory has already been decided.

@Joe:  [“These men in black do not proclaim the principles and precepts of Holy Mother the Church, yet conciliarists still claim the Vatican 2 new religion is Catholic.  Go FIGURE!”]  Who is responsible for promoting these men to Bishop?  That falls mostly to John Paul II.  Now they want to canonize him as a “saint.”  Why?

@Joe:  I prefer Kingdom living as opposed to a mindset of suffering.  It’s all in one’s perspective for how you think.  Despite being shipwrecked, beaten, ridiculed, thrown into prison and scoffed at, Paul did not consider these things “sufferings”—as the world does.  His cause was that of everything FOR Christ and advancing the Kingdom.  When you are able to surrender your life, (your will) totally for Christ, that is what the denial of self is about.  The victory is yours in Jesus’ name.

Terah James, As for the debate between St. Paul and St. Peter. When the matter came up St. Paul said, “Let us go to Peter”. It was St. Peter who as Pope made the final decision. This the Potestants have always pointed out as an example against the Pope. But the Catholic Church has always pointed this out as an example that St. Paul went to Peter and Peter made the final decision. As for the Novus Ordo Mass, today it is filled with the experimentations of the liberals. Bl. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict have been and continue to restore the Novus Ordo as it was meant by Pope Paul Vl. As for “Active Participation” this was completely distorted by the abuses and errors of the liberals. Many Trads accepted their errors as being V2. Pope Benedict XVl has spoken about what The Council Fathers actually meant, “Active Participation is done mainly in silence, we cannot fully participate without the necessary silence.”. Before V2, active participation was a priority for a long time, St. Pius X said, “Don’t pray at Mass, Pray the Mass.” Pope Benedict has made it clear many times that this is done in silence. The Second Vatican Council did not err, it could not err. The ones who have erred are the modernists and the ultra-traditionalist who have interpreted the Council in an complete irresponsible, inexcusable, rediculous, heretical and schismatic attitude. During the year of Faith starting in October to commemorate the beggining of V2, one thing I am confident about is that the correct understanding and interpretaion of the Council will finally be done. Not that very many will accept the truth, as this is the age when Leberals and Trads can no longer endure sound doctrine. And prefer to hold fast to their fables of misinterpretations.

“Who is responsible for promoting these men to Bishop?”
 

The claimed ones seated on the Chair of Peter; the claimed ones who appear to be Christ’s representative on earth as Teacher of teachers, Doctor of doctors, Theologian of theologians, who is not to be taught by anyone on earth in matters of faith and morals, that’s who.  The more outrageous the clergy in the conciliar church become, the higher the reward.  And conciliarists just keep putting money into the collection plate!??!

Joe, “Who is responsible for promoting these men to Bishop?” The answer is simple. But the why, is complex. Whats important is that we live our Catholic Faith with complete conformity to God’s will. God’s will according to the teachings of the Church of course. All you attempt to point out as error is either not error or if it is, it has been addressed over and over. The problem is that no one is listening to the Holy Father. Too many people are playing Pope’s and Popesses. That is holding the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary back. Too many of us are just in the way. Perhaps God needs to cleanse the world from the likes of us.

Angelo, the novus ordo protestanized Bugnini and his 6 henchmen mass AND the Tridentine Mass are being blended into one false mass to be said by men.  Now you might think these men are priests or bishops because they are on the payroll (as careerists only); but you are merely fooling your senses and not coming to terms with the fact that ALL the Sacraments were tampered with since the Council of Vat 2.  These men are merely tools for the One World Order Church and have no significant indelible mark on their souls. I understand the beginning of the combination of masses into one is in December.
BTW, there are over 100 errors in the 16 V-documents.  You OK with that?!  No they are not misunderstandings, they are very specific contaminations=====

casting crown, “Who is responsible for promoting these men to Bishop?  That falls mostly to John Paul II.  Now they want to canonize him as a “saint.”  Why?

I’m striving to stay on issues and not individuals.  If there was a place to discuss your question without being booted out, I would gladly do it.

Has it ever occurred to you that these Bishops, who have lived for decades the most intimate relationship with the the
Church, just might know a little better than you?  You seem to think Bishops are only correct when they agree with you.  When they don’t, you condemn them as scandalous.  You really think highly of yourselves and that is a dangerous thing

Angelo, Another contamination in the 16 V-II documents:    Consider that when the term “in the light of tradition” is used, it should mean that references can be found in the Church’s tradition to the particular doctrines in question.

      To interpret a doctrine “in the light of tradition” should mean that the doctrine has been previously taught by past Popes and Ecumenical Councils.  Vat II’s “Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions”  states: “…In Hinduism men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible fruitfulness of myths and a searching philosophical inquiry. They seek release from the anguish of our condition through ascetical practices or deep meditation or a loving, trusting flight toward God.” 

      Consider, Angelo:  Hinduism is a pantheistic as well as a polytheistic religion. It recognizes various gods in the created world. The world and everything in it.  According to this ‘religion’ even Man is God!  Hindus worship many animals as god.  The cow is the most sacred animal.  This Declaration of Vat II uses the terminology that Hindus make “a loving, trusting flight toward God”? — Which god is referred to, Angelo - the cow, man, snakes, monkeys or the endless evolution of births called reincarnation???

Did the authors of this Declaration ever hear of the First Commandment of God:
“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before Me”?

@Joe:  [“Angelo, the novus ordo protestanized Bugnini and his 6 henchmen mass AND the Tridentine Mass are being blended into one false mass to be said by men.”]  Let’s stop and look at this in light of what the gospel says rather than your take or that of others.  In the gospel of Mark, Jesus told the Samaritan woman “We—(the Jews) worship what we know.”  How can you be sure that Bugnini is not honoring the Lord in his heart with the Novos Ordo?  Cannot the Lord be honored with both the Novus Ordo and Tridentine?  What makes you so certain the Novus Ordo is false worship and the people there are heretics?  How do you know these people do not carry Christ in their hearts?  Carried futher, how do you know Protestants do not equally carry Christ in their hearts?

Posted by Andrew on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 4:56 PM (EST):

Are you talking about the claimed to be bishops ordained since 1969? 

Are you talking about the bishops who took an “Oath Against the Errors of Modernism”?

They are not one and the same because of the form and matter changed in their ordinations, or in their consecrations.

Angelo - if it was St. Peter that was responsible for making the decision at the Council of Jerusalem, then why was it St. James that made the pronouncement, and why, in the epistle Peter wrote (I think it was the second one) did he refer to himself as another church elder?

Note: I am not trying to say that there was no leadership in place or to downplay Peter’s role in the church.  But the facts are the facts.

In answering the question, “Who is responsible for promoting these men to Bishop?” —It’s my understanding that Rome makes the ultimate decision, based on individual bishops recommending specific clergymen for the role.

It was JPII that appointed bishops for the past 30+ years, and those appointments gave us men that were more interested in rituals and making sure the “Catholic image” remained intact, rather than those shepherds that were interested in the souls of the flock under their care.

After 30+ years of JPII appointees, our church had to spend $1 billion in settlements for clergy sexual abuse, and estimates are that the figure will pale, by comparison, should the data be released about sexual abuse of lay people by religious men and women in the mission field.  JPII knew about the problems nuns were having with priests in parts of Africa, and he did nothing about it. That is likely still going on.

It has little to do with God’s will.  It’s common sense.  Guidelines for the qualifications best possessed by bishops from Scripture are overlooked in the quest to just get vocations. Further, it’s self-serving. Catholics fear not having a priest on the altar for THEMSELVES. 

Angelo, you wrote:
“Too many people are playing Pope’s and Popesses. That is holding the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary back.”

Please, will you tell me where (anywhere) in Scripture, or in APOSTOLIC tradition, is the “Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary” mentioned as “coming back”?  I declare it is NOT in Scripture or in Apostolic Tradition, and if I am correct, then this is no different than the news that came out today, indicating a parchment from the 4th century states Jesus was married.  It’s drivel.  Pure and simple: garbage.

Angelo- you have a sweet family. Sit down tonight, please, read the Bible to them. Begin with Genesis, and read to Revelation, it will take you about 4 months.  It’s great family time.  By Revelation, you & your precious family will see it is Jesus that comes again.  He will triumph.  King Jesus.  Lord & Savior.  Every knee will bend.  Every head will bow.  Alleluia, and Amen. 

@Andrew:  [“Has it ever occurred to you that these Bishops, who have lived for decades the most intimate relationship with the the
Church, just might know a little better than you?”]  That might be Joe’s point exactly.  A relationship with the institutional church does not always mean one has a relationship with Christ.  This can apply to both clergy and laity.

“... how do you know Protestants do not equally carry Christ in their hearts?” 

Any outside Holy Mother the Church are in disobedience and are heretics.

Casting Crown, don’t be so naive about Bugnini and the 6 protestants who contrived the new mass.  Protestants hated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  They developed a celebration service that is every thing Martin Luther desired.  I’m soon to get the book, “Work of Human Hands” by Fr. Cekada.  Look it up if you dare, that is.  There has been a lot of work done to explain why the People of God attending these gatherings to receive a meal off a wooden table put into hands by female distributors, are offending God.  Don’t be so naive that you have not run into the balloon masses, the circus masses, the cheese head, the dancers, the clowns, the basket ball masses, the half dressed women masses….......!

Terah James,  The Blessed Trinity is not mentioned in Sacred Scripture, but all Catholics are bound to acknowlege Three distinct Persons in One God.  Also, Our Blessed Mother’s perpetual Virginity before, during and after the birth of Jesus is not mentioned in S S, but all Catholics are bound to this Sacred Docrine. 

Only Holy Mother the Church can interpret Genesis to Revelation correctly.  Fallible Humans have not been given the capacity.  Now, I’m not saying don’t read the bible.  We have been admonished to do so.  I’m saying, we must look to the Infallible Interpretation of Holy Mother Church who safeguards the Total Deposit of Faith.

@Joe, now that you mention it, there was a video on YouTube I saw last year where a Catholic mass on video tape looked like a circus.  If I can still find it I will post the link.

@Joe-“Don’t be so naive that you have not run into the balloon masses, the circus masses, the cheese head, the dancers, the clowns, the basket ball masses, the half dressed women masses….......!”

Nope, daily Mass since I was 18 and never heard of them.

@Casting Crowns - “That might be Joe’s point exactly.  A relationship with the institutional church does not always mean one has a relationship with Christ.  This can apply to both clergy and laity.”

I’m actually calling them out for their duplicity.  I see all of these posts about obedience to the Pope, Hierarchy, blah. blah, blah.  But that only seems to count when they agree.  You can’t have it both ways.

Casting Crown you said, “A relationship with the institutional church does not always mean one has a relationship with Christ.  This can apply to both clergy and laity”.

Can you be more specific.  Vat 2 refers to Church and not the Roman Catholic Church.  Conciliarists are fooled into believing Church means ‘Catholic’.

@Joe:  [“Also, Our Blessed Mother’s perpetual Virginity before, during and after the birth of Jesus is not mentioned in S S, but all Catholics are bound to this Sacred Docrine.”]  You mean Joseph and Mary did not have sex AFTER Jesus was born?  Never?  That’s totally without proof and without any biblical foundation.  Joseph never signed up for that.

Regarding the Top 3 alleged mistakes to come from Vatican II:

1) I don’t understand “Religious Liberty” being a problem w/ Vatican II - it means the right to worship God, correct?  As in our US Constitution?  If it means we have the right by God to NOT worship Jesus, or that believing anything will do, then it is a problem.  Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, and NO ONE comes to the Father, but by me.”

2) “Ecumenism” - I also do not see as a problem, if it is among Christians that profess the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed to be true.  If it’s worshipping at Assisi with Buddhists, then: Houston, we have a problem.

But defining terms is very important.  Even Jesus ate with sinners, and other non-believers.  He just taught them, and then it was up to them to accept what He taught or to reject it.  Some people that rejected it were the Scribes and most of the Pharisees, the “rich young ruler”, and others.
But many people believed, after they heard the Gospel.  “Let them that have ears to hear..” hear!

3) I have no idea what “subsists in” means.  Could you use it in context?
I’ve not followed Vatican II as much as others on this blog.  When I converted, I figured church leaders knew what they were doing.  Was I ever wrong.

Joe, I am fooling no one, much less myself. The Novus Ordo Missae was approved by the Servant of God Pope Paul Vl The Vicar of Christ. You only fool youself and others in attempting to Judge the Holy Father. If there were no Pope then you could probably make sense. The Tradition of the Church is to obey the Holy Father, it is you my friend who has broken the infallible tradition of Christ’s Church concerning the Supreme Pontiff. The greatest error’s of the Church today are those yelling out that Vatican ll erred. It did not err!

Joe - the word “Trinity” is not mentioned in Scripture, you are correct.  However, the concept most certainly is all over the Bible, Old and New Testament.

In Genesis, the Spirit of God hovered over the waters of the formless earth.  The Trinity (Father’s voice, Son’s body & Holy Spirit in the FORM of a dove) was at Jesus’ baptism, and if memory serves, also at the Transfiguration.

We are told to baptize disciples, in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  Triune Godhead: co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent, revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Terah James, You are in grave error, an error that the Church has said is “Anathema”. The error of which I speak is called “Sola Scriptura”. The Church follows Sripture and Tradition. To reject one or the other is called “Grave Error.” This is the reason why protestants convert to the Catholic faith, to escape error.Paul says, “Follow all the Traditions we have taught you”, Christ promised the Paraclete to teach us All truth. We Catholics call it Tradition. When you came into the Church, you probably were not told to leave protestanism at the door. Most likely you were taught by Modernists. Modernists have been officialy condemned by the Church. You need to go back and study the faith as the Church teaches it, not by the schismatics not by the Liberals.

Celinedesilva, You have pointed out many important facts. At the same time you have made error truth. Why won’t you tell us more of what you really think.

“......You mean Joseph and Mary did not have sex AFTER Jesus was born?  Never?  That’s totally without proof and without any biblical foundation.  Joseph never signed up for that.”

Joseph knew exactly what he ‘signed on’ for.  It is scriptural that not all Christ revealed to the first bishops was written for the world could not hold all the books.  Catholics acknowledge good and Holy St. Joseph to be a most honorable man who protected the Holy Family.  There was no intimacy between him and the Mother of Our Saviour.  I wish I could provide proof of this, but I know the Catholic Church has stated this to be true.

@Joe: Where in church tradition does it say Joseph and Mary never had sex?  There is zero evidence for them not having sex afte the birth of Christ.  Why would the Lord prevent the most holy benevolence of the marriage union?  He created men and women to share this intimacy.  Your statement is invented theology.

@Angelo, [“Paul says, “Follow all the Traditions we have taught you”]  We are very aware of this teaching in 1 Corinthians 11:2. However, what Paul actually says is:  “Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.”  Paul is referring to what he has delivered and taught—not others.

RE:  RCIA
As a former conservative conciliarist I had experience with the RCIA program and I advised against it.  Priests and nuns formerly taught according to the precepts of the Roman Catholic Church were scandalous in what they were teaching the potential candidates.  The priests obviously had turned against their Oath Against Modernism (they were old enough for it to have been a requirement).  The nuns prided themselves of the new theology of Vatican II.  How perfectly disastrous are these people with power.

Casting Crowns, That St. Joseph was pure and Our Lady Ever Virgin is Dogmatic Teaching of the Church. To reject these truths binds under pain of mortal Sin. This teaching is 1000% taught by the Church. And the Church declares that he who denies this is eternaly damned to hell. As for what St. Paul says about following the Traditions they have taught us, this is in fact the teaching of the Church. “Scripture and Tradition”. There are many translations of the Bible today, most are bad some are good. If I were you, I’d look for a translation more accurate than the one your reading. Have you ever prayed the ancient prayer of the “Divine Praises” “BLESSED BE SAINT JOSEPH, HER MOST CHASTE SPOUSE” Either you are listenening to Protestants or Modernists. But not ultra-traditionalists, because this is one teaching they have yet to deny, but don’t put it past them.

@Angelo

Come on, you’ve got to be kidding.  No way old Joe wasn’t laying down some wood on his honey - get real.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 6:25 PM (EST):
“@Joe: Where in church tradition does it say Joseph and Mary never had sex? Your statement is invented theology.”

Casting Crowns,

You are indeed an imposter and a heretic.  You pretend to know and defend the Dogmas of the Church.  You have betrayed yourself here.

When you are confronted with Holy Scripture and the interpretation of that Scripture by Mother Church you throw a tantrum and in desperation stoop to name calling.

Go back and read my numerous comments in my own words.  On this post,  I have written much of my Catholic belief founded on the teachings of All the Popes who did not deviate from the teaching of our Lord: Matthew 28:20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

This is true Ecumenism. OUR BLESSED LORD DID NOT COMMAND Peter or the other Apostles to go teach false religions and cults.  Go search scripture for this one.

THE POPE IS NOT THE SPOKESMAN NOR IS HE THE AUTHORITY ON HERETICAL SECTS,  FALSE RELIGIONS, AND PAGAN CULTS.

UNDER OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE POPE IS THE HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, HIS VICAR ON EARTH.

I have no better words than the words of Holy Scripture and the interpretation of Mother Church.

Whether you heretics and imposters like it or not here it is again:

16] And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. [17]

[18] Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost. [19] Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately.

[20] But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

INTERPRETATION OF MOTHER CHURCH:

[16] The husband of Mary: The Evangelist gives us rather the pedigree of St. Joseph, than that of the blessed Virgin, to conform to the custom of the Hebrews, who in their genealogies took no notice of women; but as they were near akin, the pedigree of the one sheweth that of the other.

[21] And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.

[22] Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying:

[23] Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[24] And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.

[25] And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. [Matthew 1:25] [Latin]

INTERPRETATION OF MOTHER CHURCH:

[25] Till she brought forth her firstborn son: From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more.

Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity.

St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

Posted by Angelo on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 9:23 PM (EST):

Casting Crowns, That St. Joseph was pure and Our Lady Ever Virgin is Dogmatic Teaching of the Church. Praises” “BLESSED BE SAINT JOSEPH, HER MOST CHASTE SPOUSE”

Angelo,

You are most correct.  However,

“BLESSED BE SAINT JOSEPH, HER MOST CHASTE SPOUSE” – This is a bad translation.  It looks like our Blessed Mother had many spouses and St. Joseph was the most chaste out of all of them.

“BLESSED BE SAINT JOSEPH, HER SPOUSE MOST CHASTE” is the invocation at Benediction.

Posted by Angelo on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 5:50 PM (EST):
Celinedesilva, You have pointed out many important facts. At the same time you have made error truth. Why won’t you tell us more of what you really think.

Angelo,

Sorry.  I have been extremely busy on the weekend:  Holy Masses, Choirs, choir practices, teaching Catechesis and family duties etc. etc. etc.

“you have made error truth.”

Error and truth are opposites and have no place together.  The facts I pointed out is the Truth that our Lord has taught and passed down through the ages by 267? odd popes. Please read my previous post.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 6:33 PM (EST):
@Angelo, [“Paul says, “Follow all the Traditions we have taught you”] …Paul is referring to what he has delivered and taught—not others.”

Casting Crowns.  Do you understand what you read?

 
You together with other imposters on this post, come down like a swarm of hornets on those true Catholics who want the truth.  Did Beelzebub command you to do this?

This is why you get frazzled when Holy Scripture and the interpretation of that Scripture by Mother Church is presented.

Matthew 28:20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU:
and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Our Lord commands His Apostles TO TEACH, TO BAPTIZE…

Paul wanted nothing more than that Christ be preached.
Go read my previous comments.

You are indeed a protest-ant, a heretic.  “Sola Scriptura”
You betray yourself in every one of your comments.

@Candy (Queen of Copy & Paste):  You betray yourself as a legalist and a modern day Pharisee entrenched in rules, regulations and invented theologies.  Paul describes you in 2 Timothy 3:7 “always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.”  You seem devoid in ability to separate truth from teaching.  If tradition (teaching) is based upon Scripture, you have no foundation which suggests Joseph and Mary led a life without intimacy.  God created such intimacy for marriage.  So why in the holiest of earthly marriage would the Lord deny this couple due benevolence?  Spouting some teaching, doctrine or canon does not make something true especially when the teaching runs contrary to the nature and character of God Himself as He has revealed Himself to us in His word. 

@Candy:  [“Our Lord commands His Apostles TO TEACH”]  Yes,—the gospel, the “Good News.”  Not to invent new teachings on the fly.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 10:47 AM (EST):
“…Yes,—the gospel, the “Good News.” Not to invent new teachings on the fly.”

You heretic, you imposter, here you go again.  You show forth your true colours.

Did you not know that, frequently, Jesus took his 12 Apostles aside and expounded further His teaching to them.  The Apostles faithfully passed down these teachings of Jesus by word of mouth.  THIS IS CALLED THE ORAL TRADITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Read for yourself. That is if you can comprehend what you read.  Go back and read your own comments, you will see what I mean.

[14] And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive. [Matthew 13:14] 

15 For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[9] Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son. [2 John 1:9] [10] If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.

[10] NOR SAY TO HIM, GOD SPEED YOU: THIS ADMONITION IS IN GENERAL, TO FOREWARN THE FAITHFUL OF THE DANGERS WHICH MAY ARISE FROM A FAMILIARITY WITH THOSE WHO HAVE PREVARICATED AND GONE FROM THE TRUE FAITH, AND WITH SUCH AS TEACH FALSE DOCTRINE. BUT THIS IS NOT FORBIDDING A CHARITY FOR ALL MEN, BY WHICH WE OUGHT TO WISH AND PRAY FOR THE ETERNAL SALVATION OF EVERY ONE, EVEN OF OUR ENEMIES.

***[17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. ..

***[17] FEED MY SHEEP: OUR LORD HAD PROMISED THE SPIRITUAL SUPREMACY TO ST. PETER; ST. MATT. 16. 19; AND HERE HE FULFILS THAT PROMISE, BY CHARGING HIM WITH THE SUPERINTENDENCY OF ALL HIS SHEEP, WITHOUT EXCEPTION; AND CONSEQUENTLY OF HIS WHOLE FLOCK, THAT IS, OF HIS OWN CHURCH.

[24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

[25] BUT THERE ARE ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH JESUS DID; WHICH, IF THEY WERE WRITTEN EVERY ONE, THE WORLD ITSELF, I THINK, WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT SHOULD BE WRITTEN. [John 21:25

REMEMBER, JESUS DID NOT COMMAND PETER TO PREACH OR TEACH FALSE RELIGIONS.

@Celine Dion:  [“Did you not know that, frequently, Jesus took his 12 Apostles aside and expounded further His teaching to them.”]  And you were there?  Please itemize in detail what all these further teachings were.  For instance, waiting 12 centuries to say tradition teaches that a priest cannot marry is invented theology.  Waiting until 1952 to decide Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven is invented theology,—not tradition.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 6:25 PM (EST):
@Joe: WHERE IN CHURCH TRADITION DOES IT SAY JOSEPH AND MARY NEVER HAD SEX? THERE IS ZERO EVIDENCE FOR THEM NOT HAVING SEX AFTE THE BIRTH OF CHRIST…. YOUR STATEMENT IS INVENTED THEOLOGY.

Looks like all you heretics and imposters, agents of satan are sex obsessed.

Let me explain:

Adam and Eve through their disobedience and pride lost Original Grace and committed Original Sin bringing destruction and death to mankind – created with an immortal soul.

In His goodness and mercy God curses the serpent and promises the Redeemer our High Priest.

[3]” …the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star I begot thee. [Psalms 109:3] [4] The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.”

God goes on to bring about His Plan of Redemption by choosing another woman, The new Eve, The Mother of God to be.

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. [Genesis 3:15] 

THIS WOMAN IS OUR BLESSED MOTHER, THE IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD, BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN.  THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

[7] Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee. [Canticles) 4:7

The Mystery of the Incarnation:

OUR BLESSED MOTHER IS:
• THE DAUGHTER OF THE FATHER

“[30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

• THE MOTHER OF HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

• THE SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [Luke 1:35]

[14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. [Isaias 7:14]

[Canticles) 4:12] My sister, my spouse, is a garden enclosed, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up.

46] And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

***[48] Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

[49] Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

[50] And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

***[48] Shall call me blessed: These words are a prediction of that honour which the church in all ages should pay to the Blessed Virgin.
LET PROTESTANTS EXAMINE WHETHER THEY ARE ANY WAY CONCERNED IN THIS PROPHECY.

AND TO SAINT JOSEPH:

“…behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. [Matthew 1:20]
[21] And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.

Our Blessed Mother, the Mother of God is indeed the pure and chaste Tabernacle of the Most High.  She always was and always will be the Immaculate Conception.

That is why Mary most Pure was assumed into heaven, body and soul to be with her Most Beloved Son, The Only Begotten Son of the Father.

ONLY PROTEATANTS SPEAK AS CASTING CROWNS WHO HAS CONTEMPT FOR ALL THAT IS CHASTE AND PURE.  IT IS TRULY PAGAN, PROTEATANT AND DEMONIC.

OUR BLESSED MOTHER IS THE MOTHER OF GOD

To those who claim that Chastity, Celibacy is not scriptural Read again:
Contd…

Contd…

To those who criticize Priestly celibacy, and claim that Chastity and Celibacy is not scriptural; Read again:

‘Lessons relating to marriage and celibacy. Virginity is preferable to a married state.

[1 Corinthians 7: 7 - 35] [7] For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that.

[8] But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, EVEN AS I.

[31] And they that use this world, as if they used it not: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

[32] But I would have you to be without solicitude. HE THAT IS WITHOUT A WIFE, IS SOLICITOUS FOR THE THINGS THAT BELONG TO THE LORD, HOW HE MAY PLEASE GOD.

[33] But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided.

[34] AND THE UNMARRIED WOMAN AND THE VIRGIN THINKETH ON THE THINGS OF THE LORD, THAT SHE MAY BE HOLY BOTH IN BODY AND IN SPIRIT.

But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

[35] And this I speak for your profit: not to cast a snare upon you; but for that which is decent, and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 10:43 AM (EST):

“…” You seem devoid in ability to separate truth from teaching…”
“especially when the teaching runs contrary to the nature…”

Casting Crowns,

You pay me a great compliment, tribute in accusing me of being “devoid in (of) the ability to separate truth from teaching”

•  I teach the Truth of Holy Scripture as interpreted by The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  That is why I cut and paste.

•  My God given ability is to NEVER SEPARATE TRUTH IN MY TEACHING. No matter what the cost.

•  Because of original sin the lure of the world, the flesh and devil is attractive to our fallen nature and what is right and good and virtuous is contrary to nature.,

[11] Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires which war against the soul, [1 Peter 2:11]

[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride. [Matthew 25:1]

@CandyO:  You intentionally left out “contrary to the nature ***and character of God ***as revealed in His word.

@Candy

Casting Crowns has been hinting to you about using your own words.  Let me be a little clearer to you on that - when people read your posts, they stop reading once your cut-n-pastes start.  Really, stop wasting your time, nobody reads it.

And, “Sorry.  I have been extremely busy on the weekend:  Holy Masses, Choirs, choir practices, teaching Catechesis and family duties etc. etc. etc.”

A little proud of yourself?

Posted by Andrew on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 4:24 PM (EST):
“...cut-n-pastes start.  Really, stop wasting your time, nobody reads it….A little proud of yourself?”

Are you the mouth piece of all who come on to this post?  If you or they lose interest, so be it. 

Humility is truth.

Weren’t you one of those who said we should not be judging?

@Candy:  I agree with Andrew.

@Candy:  [“Looks like all you heretics and imposters, agents of satan are sex obsessed.”]  This comment alone tells everyone where you’re coming from.  You believe the marriage of Joseph and Mary was never consummated.
Because someone teaches this as doctrine does not make it true.  Doctrinal teachings require they stand the scrutiny of examination for support and legitimacy.  It is outside the character and nature of the Lord to deny Joseph and Mary physical union as “one flesh.”  Your belief is not only unnatural humanly speaking but unspiritual as the Lord ordains for marriage in His word.

Jason, I don’t appreciate your blasphemy againts Our Lady and St. Joseph. The Church teaches the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Our Lady of Fatima told Sr. Lucia Dos Santos that God willed the practice of the 5 first saturdays. 5 for the 5 sins commited against the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for which God damns souls to hell. One of those sins is denying the Perpetual Virginity of Mary Most Holy. Watch you tongue, with such Ideas as yours you could only receive eternal damnation.

Casting Crown = I will find the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church that Our Blessed Mother was perpetual Virgin - before , during , and after.  It will be in Sacred Tradition promulgated by Christ’s personal representative on earth.  Will you believe it when I find it?

Casting Crowns, Celinedesilva and I disagreed on a couple of points. But she is the one who has been making true sense. You constantly accuse her of “copy and paste”, have you paid any attention to what she so called copies and pastes? She speaks the truth using sources that no one can refute. She uses Scripture and Tradition. This “Scripture and Tradition” is one of the most important Dogmatic Teachings of the Church. You have fallen into the grand heresy condemned by the Church called “Sola Scriptura”. By your denial of Tradition, your whole view of scripture is flawed and distorted. Remember what St. Peter the first Pope said, “There is no private interpretation of scripture. Many wrest it to their own damnation”. Your errors do not belong on this Catholic site, they belong to hell, leave them or one day you will receive a terrible recompense. I’m not damning you to hell, you have done that on your very own.

Joe, You are going to find the Dogma of Our Lady’s Perpetual Virginity for Casting Crowns. Joe, your wasting your time, as this guy is a heretic who not even if an Angel came to him and told him this truth, he still will not accept it. Casting Crowns, is a Formal Heretic. He is outside the Church having excommunicated himself “Latae Sententiea for formal heresy. The best you could do is pray for his conversion, so as to snatch his soul from what he has chosen for his own destiny, which is hell.

This is in response to Angelo on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2012 5:47PM, that wrote:
“Terah James, You are in grave error, an error that the Church has said is “Anathema”. The error of which I speak is called “Sola Scriptura”.

Angelo - what happens when a clear passage of Scripture conflicts with a Tradition?  Which is correct?

For instance, Casting Crowns asked a good question about the teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin.  He/she asked where it was in Scripture.
But I do not believe it is anywhere in Scripture.  In fact, people identified as Jesus’ “brothers and sisters” are taught to be “cousins” by the Church, and yet, John the Baptist, is, I think, identified in the Bible as His “cousin”, or the son of his mother’s sister.  I can’t remember.

But frankly, I can’t see that it’s all that important to insist on Mary’s perpetual virginity, as long as Mary WAS a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, her “firstborn”.  It always seemed to me that it is Catholics that are obsessed with sex, and not those of us that question the importance of Mary and Joseph having to lead a life that is well, abnormal, for a married couple, and even abnormal for couples in those days, as children were always considered by the Jewish culture as a gift from God.

Questioning is good, by the way- please, let’s dialog in a manner that encourages it, and as a result, all of us will grow deeper in knowledge of Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit.  Casting Crowns is making us all think, and for that, I’m grateful!

He/she has always been respectful towards the other posters, and (this is very important) Casting Crowns has never written anything that is in the least improper about the Blessed Mother.  Mary herself said “All generations will call me blessed!” in her Magnificat prayer to God.

I think it’s very important to keep it in mind that we ARE all speaking of the earthy mother of Jesus, and show her the respect she deserves, by our words.  Joseph too, deserves the utmost of our respect, as Jesus’ step father, & the man that taught Jesus how to be a carpenter, & about life in general.   

@Angelo

Regarding your reliance on the Fatima story.  As Catholics we are not bound to believe in private revelations, Vatican approved or not, they are not part of the Deposit of Faith.  So…holds no water with me.

Celinedesilva - you sound busy, and that’s understandable.  Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on this blog.  Angelo seems to be enjoying the data you supply, having said how grateful he is to you for it.  So it’s a bit harsh to say “no one” is reading it.  As for myself, I scan your posts, looking for what you have to share, in your own words.  But thank you, for sharing what you have with us.  It’s well thought out.

You mentioned Paul’s idea about celibacy.  I wanted to point out that Paul specifically wrote he was speaking for himself there, and not under the direction of the Holy Spirit, when he wrote that.  Paul spent 3 years being tutored directly by the Holy Spirit in the Arabian desert (he wrote that to the Galatians) and he wrote that he only spent 2 weeks with Peter, James and John, before he left o his missionary journies, and they were all in agreement about the faith they taught.  So much so that Peter, in his letter, called Paul’s writings “Scripture”.

Even Rome and all of the institutional Roman Catholic Church will agree that mandated celibacy for priests and bishops is merely a “practice”, that CAN be changed.  Mandated celibacy for ordained men is *not* in the Deposit of Faith, and it was *not in the universal church* from the beginning.  If it were, St. Peter would never have been an apostle.

Paul would never have made mention of it in 1Corinthians 9:5. Single women were not taken along to do the cooking & cleaning & other chores for single apostles.  Married couples lived as Paul described married couples should be - the Jews had no adversion to conjugal relations, as did the Gnostics and other pagan converts to Christianity. 

I mention this because with so many conservative Anglican Christians (most married, priests and bishops) joining Rome, and being widely accepted by Catholic lay people, we ought not dig in our heels over a mere “practice” that can be changed, if need be.

Married priests are not as likely to be practicing homosexuals or even homosexually inclined.  We need to bring health to our church, and reading Paul’s writings in context, is the first step.  JPII made a good move, by opening the doors to conservative Anglicans, displaced by their leaders that went apostate.  What he paved the way for is the real answer to Jesus’ prayer, for unity in His Church - unity among Christians that abide in the Body of Christ, and that are led by the *Holy Spirit*.

JPII also said we worship the same god as muslims, as he did contradict all his predecessors on matters of faith and doctrine.

Casting Crown,  I know there is more, but I’ll start with this Pontiff’s pronouncement:
SACRA VIRGINITAS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON CONSECRATED VIRGINITY

........
65. That virginity owes its origin to Mary is the testimony of Athanasius,[114] and Augustine clearly teaches that “The dignity of virginity began with the Mother of the Lord.”[115] Pursuing the ideas of Athanasius,[116] Ambrose holds up the life of the Virgin Mary as the model of virgins. “Imitate her, my daughters. . . ![117] Let Mary’s life be for you like the portrayal of virginity, for from her, as though from a mirror, is reflected the beauty of chastity and the ideal of virtue. See in her the pattern of your life, for in her, as though in a model, manifest teachings of goodness show what you should correct, what you should copy and what preserve. . . She is the image of virginity. For such was Mary that her life alone suffices for the instruction of all. . .[118] Therefore let holy Mary guide your way of life.”[119] “Her grace was so great that it not only preserved in her the grace of virginity, but bestowed the grace of chastity upon those on whom she gazed.”[120] How true is the saying of Ambrose, “Oh the richness of the virginity of Mary!’[121] Because of this richness it will be very useful for religious men and women and for priests of our day to contemplate the virginity of Mary, in order that they may more faithfully and perfectly practice the chastity of their calling. .....

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRA.HTM

Posted by Celinedesilva on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 8:29 PM (EST):JPII also said we worship the same god as muslims, as he did contradict all his predecessors on matters of faith and doctrine.

Yet you remain a conciliarist????

@Candy:  Followers of Christ Jesus absolutely do NOT worship the same God as Muslims.  I do not follow Allah nor his prophet Mohammed.  If you really believe you do, you follow a church leader who has led you astray.  It is you who follow false teachers.

@Jason:  [“As Catholics we are not bound to believe in private revelations, Vatican approved or not, they are not part of the Deposit of Faith.  So…holds no water with me.”]  Thank you for exposing truth.  These kinds of revelations are not a condition of salvation.  The gospel shared by Jesus is means for people to know truth and understand salvation.  Contrary to Candy, at the hour of death, there will be no oral or written final exam regarding the Catechism nor will you have to name at least 70% of the popes.  Candy is a modern day Pharisee steeped in legalism.

@Candy:  Re Islamics and John Paul II— The Pope claims to be the vicar of Christ, and has worked all his life to bring peace on earth. But the One he claims to represent had another purpose. Jesus said: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus preached one God, one way of salvation - the Pope gives false hopes to those who worship other gods and seek salvation apart from Jesus Christ, to Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists. Thus he is loved by all, but Christ was hated by all, and crucified.

@Candy:  Re John Paul II.  He claims to be the successor of St Peter, but unlike Peter, Pope John Paul II taught others to trust in Mary and to surrender the hour of death wholly to her care. The apostle Peter taught people to call on the only name given by God for our salvation, the blessed name of Jesus the Messiah. “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).  You thus have both Popes —Peter and John Paul II in disagreement.  Whom are you to believe—the one would walked with the incarnate Jesus or the one living 2,000 years later?

@Candy:  Excuse me regarding making private interpretation?  Here is an example of changing the Scripture to fit the personal theology of John Paul II.  He claims to be the infallible teacher of all Christians, but he distorts the clear meaning of Scripture to uphold traditional Catholic dogma.  For example to defend the Mass (which is said to be a re-enactment and a carrying on of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross), Pope John Paul wrote: “Through the shedding of His own blood, Jesus Christ constantly ‘enters into God’s sanctuary thus obtaining eternal redemption’ (ref Heb 9:12)” (Crossing the Threshold of Hope).

Compare the Pope’s words with what the Bible actually says: “Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption” (Hebrews 9:12).

Notice how the word ‘entered’ is changed to ‘enters’ - giving the impression that this action is continuous rather than a simple action completed in the past. Moreover, the word ‘once’ is omitted, and the quotation is preceded by the word ‘constantly.’ Also, instead of ‘having obtained’ he writes ‘obtaining’, as if redemption is in the process of being accomplished.  The meaning of this Scripture is reversed!  If Jesus ‘constantly enters’ the holy place, Christ is no better than the Levitical priests and if He has not obtained redemption, His blood is as powerless as that of goats and calves.  But thanks be to God, His Word teaches the very opposite: “By His own blood he entered in once (not constantly enters) into the holy place, having obtained (not obtaining) eternal redemption for us.”

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 10:00 PM (EST):@Candy:  Followers of Christ Jesus absolutely do NOT worship the same God as Muslims.

Casting Crowns, It is in the Vatican II documents that the Islamic God is the same and the Christian God.  That’s new theology contrived to bring about one world order.  It’s one of the 100 plus errors in the documents——And the conciliarists stubornly will not renounce this bogus council.

@Joe:  OK.  Now I see why the trads reject all this nonsense.  Even Catholics can reject false teachings coming from inside the church.  Candy has a dilemma because she wants to be loyal to popes even though she knows they are teaching a false gospel.  How is the “Good News?”  Where is her security in Christ?

Terah James, The recent Popes have stated with firmness, “One cannot divorce the Church from scripture”. Tradition and Scripture go hand in hand. A Priest told me, “If ever you hold an opinion and the Church teaches differently, always know that it is you who needs to change and not the Church”. Scripture and the Church have never contradicted each other and never will. Any contradiction comes from the minds of individuals, and not from the factual truth. There was an African American Protestant congregation that decided that they would prove the Catholic Church wrong. They began reading the Fathers of the Church, comparing what they said to sacred scripture. That whole congregation converted to Catholicism. All because they allowed the Catholic Church to speak and they listened. I believe the book they wrote is call “Surprised by Truth”. They now go and teach other Protestants of the Protestant errors, and condemning with the Church “Sola Scriptura”. It is an error, one must see God through Scripture and Tradition. Besides reading the Bible one needs to read the Cathechism in order to arrive at Truth, as the catechism is the interpretaion of scripture (and I mean the Old Cathechisms). If this must be repeated constantly to you, then perhaps its not worth reapeating.

Jason, True, we are not bound to believe in private revelation, but when the Church approves a private revelation, we are bound not to dissaprove of it as well. You won’t accept private revelation only when it contradicts your heresies. Ven. Pope Pius Xll said of Fatima, “Fatima is the reaffirmation of the Gospels”. I see when the teaching of the Church concerning private revelation suits your fancy, that is the only time you accept a Church teaching. Why not look at all the Church Teachings?

The Society of St. Pius X, wants to put an end to modernism in the Church. There are those who desire modernism to prevail. As we can see by many posts here, modernism has desecrated the minds of many. You can’t make up your own Church, If you claim to be Catholic then follow Catholic teaching and put your errors aside. When it comes to private revelation, the Church teaches that we have no obligation to believe in it. Likewise the Church teaches that if it has approved of a private revelation, neither can we dissaprove of it, as we have no authority over the Church’s decisions. Wow! modernism has caused more destruction than I previously thought!

@Angelo:  [“If you claim to be Catholic then follow Catholic teaching and put your errors aside. When it comes to private revelation, the Church teaches that we have no obligation to believe in it”]  We are NOT to put THEIR errors aside.  I am not required to accept false teaching nor when John Paul II changes Scripture.  What is wrong with you, Angelo?  Do you not think there are people in the clergy posing as “Angels of Light” down through history?  We are required to be vigilant and examine what they teach.

IN DEFENCE OF THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF OUR BLESSED MOTHER - CONTINUATION of:

Posted by Celinedesilva on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 2:15 PM (EST):
in response to “Casting Crowns …sex…” the confused heretic and ignoramus (as St. Paul says)

•  THE OLD TESTAMENT IS THE WAITING FOR AND FORETELLING OF SALVATION HISTORY.

Luke 2:25-30 “… man in Jerusalem named Simeon,… waiting…[28] He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: [29] Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, …[30] Because my eyes have seen thy salvation..,

•  THE NEW TESTAMENT IS THE FULFILMENT OF SALVATION HISTORY.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [John 1:14]

True God and True Man, Begotten, not made.

***[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins. [Matthew 26:28]

•  INTERPRETATION OF MOTHER CHURCH:

***[28] Blood of the new testament: As the old testament was dedicated with the blood of victims, by Moses, in these words: This is the blood of the testament, etc., Heb. 9. 20; so here is the dedication and institution of the new testament, in the blood of Christ, here mystically shed by these words: This is the blood of the new testament, etc.

•  OUR BLESSED MOTHER IS PREFIGURED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:

3 Kings (1 Kings) 2:16 16] Now therefore I ask one petition of thee: turn not away my face. And she said to him: Say on.

[17] And he said: I pray thee speak to king Solomon (FOR HE CANNOT DENY THEE ANY THING)…

[18] And Bethsabee said: Well, I will speak for thee to the king.

[19] Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him…

THE KING AROSE TO MEET HER, AND BOWED TO HER, AND SAT DOWN UPON HIS THRONE: AND A THRONE WAS SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER, AND SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.

[3 Kings (1 Kings) 2:19] [20] And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion.

AND THE KING SAID TO HER: MY MOTHER, ASK: FOR I MUST NOT TURN AWAY THY FACE

•  OUR BLESSED MOTHER OF GOD - IN THE NEW TEATAMENT:

. [1] And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and THE MOTHER OF JESUS WAS THERE.
[2] And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage.
[3] And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. [John 2:3]
***[4] And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.
[5] His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

LIKE BETHSABEE, [20]” … MY MOTHER, ASK: FOR I MUST NOT TURN AWAY THY FACE”

• INTERPRETATION OF MOTHER CHURCH:

***[4] What is that to me: These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shews that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shewn at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another.

•  AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS, JESUS GIVES US HIS MOST HOLY MOTHER.

[26] When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. [John 19:26]

[27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

•  Our Blessed Mother from then on is always mentioned to be with the Apostles. She is Queen of Apostles, one of her many titles.

•  This is why The Mother of God is the Mother of Christ’s Mystical Body, The One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Luke 1:48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

1] And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: [Apocalypse (Revelation) 12:1] …[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

•  INTERPRETATION OF MOTHER CHURCH:

[1] A woman: The church of God.

It may also, BY ALLUSION, BE APPLIED TO OUR BLESSED LADY.

The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.

THE OLD TESTAMENT FULFILLED IN THE NEW:

“THE KING AROSE TO MEET HER, AND BOWED TO HER, AND SAT DOWN UPON HIS THRONE: AND A THRONE WAS SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER, AND SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.”

AD CAELI REGINAM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY

•  Venerable Brethren, Health and Apostolic Blessing.

FROM THE EARLIEST AGES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH A CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother’s solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen.

3. It is gratifying to recall that We ourselves, on the first day of November of the Holy Year 1950, before a huge multitude of Cardinals, Bishops, priests, and of the faithful who had assembled from every part of the world, defined the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven[1] where she is present in soul and body reigning, together with her only[1a] Son, amid the heavenly choirs of angels and Saints. Moreover, since almost a century has passed since Our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, proclaimed and defined the dogma that the great Mother of God had been conceived without any stain of original sin,
23. The Supreme Shepherds of the Church have considered it their duty to promote by eulogy and exhortation the devotion of the Christian people to the heavenly Mother and Queen. Simply passing over the documents of more recent Pontiffs, it is helpful to recall that as early as the seventh century Our predecessor

St. Martin I called Mary “OUR GLORIOUS LADY, EVER VIRGIN.”[27]

St. Agatho, in the synodal letter sent to the fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical Council called her “Our Lady, truly and in a proper sense the Mother of God.”

“…She is a Queen, since she bore a son who, at the very moment of His conception, because of the hypostatic union of the human nature with the Word, was also as man King and Lord of all things…”

Given at Rome, from St. Peter’s, on the feast of the Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the eleventh day of October, 1954, in the sixteenth year of our Pontificate. PIUS XII

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html

“OUR GLORIOUS LADY, EVER VIRGIN”  MEANS A VIRGIN FOREVEVER.  A DOGMA OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH WE MUST BELIEVE.

OUR BLESSED MOTHER, QUEEN OF HEAVEN AND EARTH IS EVER VIRGIN FOREVER AND EVER

@Candy:  Copy & Paste away, but you have laid no foundation for any doctrine of “perpetual” virginity.  None whatsoever.  Mary’s role is no less diminished by having intimate relations with Joseph following the birth of the Christ-child.  Of what damage is done to Mary by her having sexual relations with Joseph, her husband?  None—perhaps, except in the minds of Vatican men who wish to elevate her to co-redemtrix status.  The correct view is that Mary does NOT seek honor for herself.  It is in the minds of people like you, Candy, and the Vatican, which dishonor Christ by transferring glory to Mary and away from Christ Jesus.

@Angelo

“You won’t accept private revelation only when it contradicts your heresies.”

What kind of weird tangent is that?  You don’t even know anything about me other than I choose not to have my faith secured by apparitions.  And of course the one joke I made about Joseph laying the wood to Mary after Jesus’ birth - which, by the way, I do believe is an idiotic thing to even concern oneself with.

I believe apparitions are needed by persons of weak faith who need something recently earthly to cling to because their faith in the Death and Resurrection is too much for them to handle.  You quote Pius XII as your back-up, which has an opposite effect on me.  You know Angelo, there is a reason Hitler’s Pope has never made it past Venerable - and that his cause has been permanently shelved.

@Candy:  [”[26] When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son.” [John 19:26].  More creative theology which isn’t there.  At the cross, Jesus is entrusting the care of Mary to apostle John.  You have interpreted that Mary is thus YOUR mother and my mother, which she is not.
Her role in salvation history is to be honored and respected, but stop believing invented theology which church leaders conjure up.  There is a psychological disorder in which celibate men idolize only virginal women as “special” because they know such women will always be unattainabale in the flesh.  Thus, they have built such a belief around marian doctrine.

Celinedesilva, Your posting are much, much too long.  I only skim them over.  You have a knowledges of many things, but I fear you lack the grace of wisdom (not that I claim to have an abundance of it).

I still don’t understand why are you defending the conciliar mess by staying within it all the while exposing its atrocities?

Posted by Casting Crowns on Thursday, Sep 20, 2012 12:18 PM (EST):

*“@Celine Dion: “…And you were there?...waiting 12 centuries to say tradition teaches that a priest cannot marry is invented theology. Waiting until 1952 to decide Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven is invented theology,—not tradition.”

Mingled here with the good grain is the chaff.

Scoffers, Bible thumping heretical gangs, imposters, ignoramuses and malformed converts not properly catechised in the Catholic Faith coming in with their heretical garbage have invaded this post.

Mark 4:15 applies to all of you; but more especially to “Casting Crowns” the heretical ignoramus whose comments you see above.

These heretics constantly resort to:

1. name calling
2. asking very stupid and irrelevant questions
3. tend to contradict themselves, pretending to be Catholic.
4. constantly ask, “where is it in Scripture?”
5. ignore or jump to a totally different subject when Scriptural proof and interpretation by Mother Church is given
6. accuse Mother Church of “…invented theology,—not tradition.”
7. ridicule those who provide proof - “cut and paste”

Jesus took his Apostles apart from the crowd.

• Matthew 20:16,…[17] And Jesus going up to Jerusalem, TOOK THE TWELVE DISCIPLES APART, AND SAID TO THEM:

• Mark 4:34 And without parable he did not speak unto them; BUT APART, HE EXPLAINED ALL THINGS TO HIS DISCIPLES.
[
• [24] When therefore the multitude saw THAT JESUS WAS NOT THERE, NOR HIS DISCIPLES,… seeking for Jesus. [John 6:24]

• AND WHEN HE WAS ALONE, THE TWELVE THAT WERE WITH HIM ASKED HIM THE PARABLE. …he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom
…
**[15]…and as soon as they have heard, immediately SATAN COMETH AND TAKETH AWAY THE WORD THAT WAS SOWN IN THEIR HEARTS. [Mark 4:10-15

**These words of our Lord apply to all of you imposters and heretics on this post.

**“… And he saith to them: If I shall tell you, you will not believe me. [Luke 22:67]

CONTD…

CONTD…

ON PRIESTLY CELEBACY IN THE CHURCH.

1. THE CATHOLIC DID NOT INVENT PRIESTLY AND RELIGIOUS CELIBACY.
2. PRIESTLY CELIBACY IS TRADITIONAL
3. IS SCRIPTURAL
4. AND PREACHED BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. 

•  18. ..Andrew his brother…[19] And he saith to them: Come ye after me, and I will make you to be fishers of men. [20] AND THEY IMMEDIATELY LEAVING THEIR NETS, FOLLOWED HIM.

• [21]…James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother,. Zebedee their father, and he called them. [22] AND THEY FORTHWITH LEFT THEIR NETS AND FATHER, AND FOLLOWED HIM. [Matthew 4:22]

•  [28] Then Peter said: BEHOLD, WE HAVE LEFT ALL THINGS, AND HAVE FOLLOWED THEE. [Luke 18:28]

• [29] Who said to them: Amen, I say to you, THERE IS NO MAN THAT HATH LEFT HOUSE, OR PARENTS, OR BRETHREN, OR WIFE, OR CHILDREN, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD’S SAKE, [30] Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

31] THEN JESUS TOOK UNTO HIM THE TWELVE, and said to them: Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,

***[11] Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given.

[12]…and there are eunuchs , who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. [Matthew 19:12]

INTERPRETATION OF HOLY MOTHER CHURCH

***[11] All men take not this word: That is, all receive not the gift of living singly and chastely, unless they pray for the grace of God to enable them to live so, and for some it may be necessary to that end to fast as well as pray: and to those it is given from above.

[12] There are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs, for the kingdom of heaven: This text is not to be taken in the literal sense; but means, that there are such, who have taken a firm and commendable resolution of leading a single and chaste life, in order to serve God in a more perfect state than those who marry: as St. Paul clearly shews. 1 Cor. 7. 37, 38.

St. Paul tells us:

• 1 Cor.7:34] HE THAT IS WITHOUT A WIFE, IS SOLICITOUS FOR THE THINGS THAT BELONG TO THE LORD, HOW HE MAY PLEASE GOD.

[33] But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided.

• [34] AND THE UNMARRIED WOMAN AND THE VIRGIN THINKETH ON THE THINGS OF THE LORD, THAT SHE MAY BE HOLY BOTH IN BODY AND IN SPIRIT.

But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

• [[35] AND THIS I SPEAK FOR YOUR PROFIT: NOT TO CAST A SNARE UPON YOU; BUT FOR THAT WHICH IS DECENT, AND WHICH MAY GIVE YOU POWER TO ATTEND UPON THE LORD, WITHOUT IMPEDIMENT

You who have come on this post not seeking the Truth but to blaspheme and ridicule:

The Ever Virgin Mother of God.  The Mother of our Redeemer Jesus Christ;
His Church; And Her Priesthood;

Our Blessed Lord would have this to say to you,

“a ‘generation of vipers,. an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.”

[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. [Matthew 3:12]

No son will stand by and watch his mother mocked, insulted and her pure character blemished.

Here we are speaking of the Only Begotten Son of God and His Mother.  She who is also His Mother the Queen in Heaven.  I have explained this in my previous post.

@Candy:  Is that the best you can really do?  “Jesus took his apostles aside and explained all things to them.”  Is this how you defend every doctrine which no one can explain?  Your basis is that Jesus told them “privately?”  Is this what you are defending?

@Candy:  Since several of the apostles were married, why was the requirement of celibacy implemented 12 centuries later?  What took so long?  Furthermore, since priestly celibacy is Scriptual—then why why were not ALL the apostles from the Levitical tribe?  Only Levites could become priests.

@Candy:  Jesus is the GREAT High Priest—thus the consummation of the priesthood.  No more “priests” are required as mediators.  Apostles, Ministers, Deacons—all yes.  Presiders to teach and instruct but the priesthood ended with Jesus (the GREAT High Priest).  The Levitical priesthood was needed in the Old Testament since he would offer sacrifice on behalf of the people.  He was the mediator between God and man.  Calvary completed the supreme and perfect sacrifice.

Apostle Paul says this eloquently in 1 Timothy 2:5:  “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”  There is no longer any need for a priest to offer sacrifice nor be a mediatory between God and man.  That is why the curtain was torn from TOP DOWN in the Temple upon the death of Christ at Calvary.  Believers NOW have direct access to the sanctuary of God.  The OT priesthood has been eliminated.  We (all believers)—Paul calls us a “Royal Priesthood.”

Candy—Can we count on you to inform your RCIA team?

Novus Ordo High School
Opens Prayer Room…for Muslims

Not really surprising, considering that the Novus Ordo religion admits to worshipping the same god as the Muslims: “...together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day” (Novus Ordo 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 841).

Reality Check:

“Be Thou King of all those who are still involved in the darkness of idolatry or of Islamism, and refuse not to draw them into the light and kingdom of God.”—Act of Consecration to the Sacred Heart of Jesus

http://www.novusordowatch.org/archive.htm

Our Blessed Mother’s perpetual virginity and St. Joseph:

When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, and asked her to be the Mother of the Redeemer, her response was “how is it possible, since I do not know man.”  Since at that time she was already betrothed to St. Joseph, if she had intended ever to give up her virginity, there would have been no problem with becoming a mother and she would not have asked that question.  Tradition in the Catholic Church has always been that both Joseph and Mary had each made a vow of perpetual virginity.  The Mother of God nor St. Joseph would break a vow.
          This is what the gospel commentaries all say.  The accounts in Anne Catherine Emmerich’s books also report on these vows that both Mary and Joseph had made early in life.  Conciliarists and protestants do not know that vows of perpetual virginity have always been very common among fervent Christians.  Also, thousands of virgin martyrs were tortured and killed (like St. Philomena & St. Lucy).

@Joe:  [“Tradition in the Catholic Church has always been that both Joseph and Mary had each made a vow of perpetual virginity.”]  Joseph was also a “perpetual” virgin?  What purpose of the Lord is served by establishing this idea as doctrinal teaching?

Posted by Joe on Friday, Sep 21, 2012 4:36 PM (EST):
“Novus Ordo High School Opens Prayer Room…for Muslims”

Posted by Joe on Friday, Sep 21, 2012 11:32 AM (EST):
“Celinedesilva, Your posting..much too long…. I still don’t understand…by staying within it…?”

Joe,

The subjects discussed here cannot be explained in a few words especially when heretics demand proof which I now see is still insufficient.  Re these heretics, I “shake the dust off my feet”.

My Correspondence with a Catholic Priest which is self explanatory is the reason I stay.

Re islam. His questions are in caps

Dear Father,

Thank you so very much for your e-mail. Let me most humbly explain my Catholic belief by answering each one of your questions separately.

DO JEWS WORSHIP THE SAME GOD AS CHRISTIANS? (NEITHER JEWS NOR MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THE HOLY TRINITY.)

•  Catholics worship the same God as the Jews of the Old Testament. The modern day Jews have rejected not only the Messiah but also the God they once worshiped. So Catholics do not worship the same god as the Jews of today.

•  I say Catholics, because unlike us, over 30,000 Christian denominations adamantly deny that they worship the same god as muslims.

• (The Catholic Church is not one of these denominations as some priests now say. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE CHURCH FOUNDED BY JESUS CHRIST. Aren’t we the Church Militant on earth?)

•  Muslim Leaders deny worshiping the same god as Christians. The Ayatollah is the spokesperson for muslims, not the Pope.

• In Iran before his death, Khomeini wrote, “Any man or woman who denies the existence of God, or believes in his partners (Trinity), or else does not believe in his prophet mohammed, is impure in the same way as are excrement, urine, dog, and wine.” (Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini p.51) (quoted from Reach Out to the Muslim World April 1992 p.21) muslims heed the call of their ayatollahs and imams.

http://www.muslimhope.com/islamreligionofpeace.htm

I AGREE THAT THERE ARE LOTS MORE PROBLEMS WITH MUSLIMS THAN WITH JEWS, BUT CLAIMING THAT BLESSED JOHN PAUL AND BENEDICT XVI ARE BLATANT LIARS (THAT’S WHAT YOU SEEM TO BE DOING)….

Saying that Catholics worship the same god as Muslims is a blatant lie regardless of who says it.

The Pope’s words carry weight even on trivial matters. These present day popes refer to and acknowledge mohammad as a prophet.

IS NOT EXACTLY A CATHOLIC ATTITUDE.

Today, Catholic attitude is seen as accepting everything, being nice, politically correct and blinding ourselves to the truth.

True Catholic attitude is to stand up for the TRUTH regardless of the consequences.

The Catholic Creed is the Foundation, Life and Hope of my eternal salvation and the salvation of all those who die in the embrace of our Holy Mother Church. It is offered to everyone and only those who accept it will be saved. Martyrs have been killed and even today are killed, to defend this only true faith.

If muslims say they worship one True God the Creator of heaven and earth without adding anything else, I can accept that.

But mohammad gave his followers a book called the koran, dictated by a so called angel. In that book, with the help of a dissident ex Catholic monk/priest, mohammad went so far as to diabolically refute without success, every article of our Catholic Creed.

muslims:
• DENY THAT GOD IS FATHER

• deny that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father

• deny the Blessed Indivisible Trinity

• deny the divinity of Christ

• say, Christians believe god had sex with Mary and Jesus was conceived…..

• deny the crucifixion – “they crucified his shadow…”

• deny death of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

• deny the Resurrection of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ

• muslims call Our Lord Jesus Christ a LIAR – On the day of judgement “

20. God asked him saying (Koran: 5:116)

21. “O Jesus, did you say, ‘I am Son of God, and God?’” (cf 5:116)

22. And Jesus answered (5:116)

23. “Be merciful to me Lord. Thou knowest that I did not say it, nor do I count myself above being Thy servant, but erring men wrote that I said this word, and spoke falsely against me, and they have been deceived.” (cf. 5:116-118).

PERHAPS YOU SHOULD LIMIT YOURSELF TO SAYING, IN A MORE HUMBLE AND MODERATE WAY?

Dear Father, Humility is Truth. Truth is Absolute. In Catholicism there is no room to sugar coat truth for the sake of political correctness or a semblance of false humility, piety or charity. However this is done in the church at this time. Also, there is no way to moderately refute a lie. A lie is a lie. JESUS SAID, Satan is the Father of lies

Jesus also said’ “You are with Me or against Me”. This is not my truth.

This is the Truth passed down from the Apostles to the Church throughout these 1950 odd years. Please see attached, what the Saints of the Catholic Church have said about this demonic cult and allah who is satan.

Jesus said: John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

Doesn’t this sound like islam? Murdering from its very inception in the year 650 A.D.??

THAT YOU (RESPECTFULLY) DISAGREE WITH THE POPES ON THAT POINT

This is more than respectful disagreement. That point is about our Trinitarian God; our Catholic Creed, our Catholic Faith.

THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO DO, SINCE IT IS NOT AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT MUSLIMS WORSHIP THE SAME GOD AS CHRISTIANS,

Yes, it is now an article of faith since John Paul II put it in the Catechism. It is causing great confusion among Catholics, scorn for us in non Catholics and glee in mohammadans.

Jesus said: …But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

In the koran…islam DENIES THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, SECOND PERSON OF THE BLESSED TRINITY. Our God is not a creating force; our God is Indivisible Trinity, Three Divine Persons in ONE GOD. The only reality.

ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU SINCERELY (AND HUMBLY, I’M SURE) THINK YOU ARE THEOLOGICALLY, PHILOSOPHICALLY, AND SPIRITUALLY MORE THAN A MATCH FOR THE POPES, CONTRADICTING THEM WITH SUCH CONFIDENCE.

Yes Father, When it comes to islam, I sincerely, humbly, theologically, philosophically, spiritually, unapologetically and knowledgeably am more than a match for these popes who know nothing about islam and the koran which denies the Blessed Trinity, calls for the murder of Christians and is a pernicious cult of the devil. (I have studied the quran and sharia law extensively)

I am confidently contradicting a lie that is slowly poisoning Catholics and all mankind.

If these Popes read half of what I have read and know a quarter of what is in that cursed book they would not touch it with a ten foot pole let alone kiss it and ask St. John the Baptist to protect islam.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html St john the Baptist protect islam

Jesus never told Peter to teach other cults and false religions to His flock. Jesus said: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

ONE THING FOR SURE - I WOULDN’T WANT TO MEET YOU IN A DARK ALLEY IF I WERE A MUSLIM. (I MEAN THAT AS A SORT OF COMPLIMENT TO YOUR ZEAL.)

I thank God on my bended knees, that through His great mercy, my family and I are not muslims.

There is a hole in the wall mosque close to——————.Address deleted for blog
Try meeting a muslim in your clerical collar not just in a dark alley but in broad daylight around their mosques on a Friday where they call on muslims to kill Christians in—-

We will only wake up when moderate muslim mobs answer the call of their mullahs from the minarets to kill us. It will then be too late. Hopefully our knight in shining armour, the lover of muslims Pope John Paul II will be our defender and protector against the mohammadans.

Finally, the Popes are not the experts on other false religions and cults especially islam. No one knows islam better than the Ayatollahs, mullahs and the likes of Osama bin laden. They believe and will kill Christian Infidels including bishops, priests, nuns and the pope. Yes, they will kill for allah who is none other than lucifer.

You should read a Koran. Watch these links: Ex-Muslims reveal Islam and Islamic threat | FaithFreedom.org http://www.faithfreedom.org/ and http://www.persecution.com/

Please don’t get me wrong, I have and will always love Our Holy Mother the Church, the Holy Father and obey the Truth of all Her Catholic teaching on Faith and morals as handed down from Jesus to Peter and all the popes through the ages.

However, I can never obey new teachings that go against the Catholic Creed. 

As all Catholics should, I can never ignore the graces of the Holy Spirit given to us at Confirmation and in the reception of The Holy Eucharist in discerning Truth from falsehood and standing up for that Truth.

God bless
In Christ Jesus.

Using the Jew hating crackpot Anne Catherine Emmerich as a source for your argument?  Oh please don’t bring us down to that unseemly   level.

Angelo, you wrote, “Scripture and the Church have never contradicted each other and never will.”

Yet, you mention Fatima is Vatican-approved and as members of the Catholic Church, we MUST accept it.  How would you respond to my query that Jesus said to the people in His day, “There will be no more signs other than the sign of Jonah” - meaning His resurrection from death, after 3 days.  It was the Jews in those days that wanted more and more signs.  Further, Jesus told the story about Lazarus and the Rich Man, who asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers, so they’d not end up where he was - isolated from God.

Abraham said the Rich Man’s brothers had Moses and the Prophets, and they KNEW all they needed to know, and that even someone coming to them FROM THE DEAD would not change their minds or warm their hearts.  It was a reference to the fact that the same kind of people were to crucify Jesus, and when He rose from the dead, they still didn’t accept it, as they plotted a conspiracy theory about why His body wasn’t in the tomb, and the apostles wouldn’t go along with it - but rather, they spoke out with the truth of His Resurrection, instead.

There are NO MORE SIGNS from God.  We too, have the Bible - all of Scripture, the Old Testament (Jewish law/prophets) and in these last days, God the Father sent His Son, Jesus, to us, and we have the New Testament account of His life.  All we need to do is to believe - and to believe the Deposit of Faith, in Scripture.

If “Tradition” squares with Scripture, great.  If Tradition is against Scripture, we must go with Scripture.  What it teaches is not hard to understand and interpret. Scripture is very consistent.  We just need to blow the dust off of our Bibles, & READ what it says.  (No cut and paste verses, by the dozens and taken out of context.  Even Jesus kept it simple, to the point.  Jesus is effective.  So is Paul.) 

[30] MANY OTHER SIGNS ALSO DID JESUS IN THE SIGHT OF HIS DISCIPLES, WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. [John 20:30] [Latin]

[12] And by the hands of the apostles WERE MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS WROUGHT among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. [Acts Of Apostles 5:12]

41] They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. [42] And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. [43] And fear came upon every soul: MANY WONDERS ALSO AND SIGNS WERE DONE BY THE APOSTLES IN JERUSALEM, and there was great fear in all. [Acts Of Apostles 2:43]

. [8] And Stephen, full of grace and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people. [Acts Of Apostles 6:8]

JESUS ALSO WARNS ABOUT FALSE PROPHETS LIKE IN ISLAM

[24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [Matthew 24:24

[25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand

[18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? [James 2:20]

26] FOR EVEN AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD; SO ALSO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. [James 2:26]

[24] DO YOU SEE THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED; AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY? [James 2:24]

Matthew 7:21 NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH TO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: BUT HE THAT DOTH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN, HE SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Celinedesilva-
*** I agree w/ the others (and you) that Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the same God.  JPII misled people about that, as far as I can see.
Muslims do not accept Jesus as the “Son” of God, they worship only Alla (I think they believe it is the same diety as Jews, because Jews too, do not believe the Father has a Son, or in the existence of the Holy Spirit, a Trinity.)

*** About mandated celibacy for priests- you said Jesus called for it, because His apostles left their families to follow Him.  Over the years, have you ever known anyone in the US military service, that went overseas for 1-5 years?  Did they abandon their families, and never come back?  Or did they go on a journey (missionary journey) and then come home.  No military man I know abandoned his family.  Each came home.

If you read 1Corinthians 9:5, you can see the apostles TOOK their wives along with them on their journeys too.  So they either left them and came back, or they moved as a family and relocated.

With the way God the Father has always revealed Himself, & how He values families, and of the role of husbands/wives/fathers/mothers in a family, it makes no sense for Jesus to rip families apart, and to be in a Male=Only environment, insisting that even married couples be separated, and if together, they can’t enjoy sexual intimacy.  It’s silly.  It’s not healthy, and frankly, it’s what got the Roman Catholic church into such a mess over the years, that is as recent as today’s news.  Look at the number of priests that fathered children, and never were a part of their lives(even bishops, 1) Bishop Zavala of Los Angeles fathered 2 teenage children, and 2) Father Thomas Williams L of C priest admitted to fathering a child prior to 2005, and he was JUST removed a few weeks ago, for ONE YEAR to “think about what he did”.) For these men, abandoning children and their mothers is fine.  But NOT FOR GOD.

Further, US Bishop Finn was convicted of child-endangering, for keeping his head in the sand about what he knew.  US Monsignor Lynn was convicted (and I think he’s in prison, as we speak) for following the orders of Cardinal Bevalaqua, resulting in children being at risk by predators.

Candy and Angelo, I ask you: how long will the US Catholic church look the other way, insisting that it was Jesus that put a BAD system into place?

Lay people MUST speak up about what the Bible REALLY SAYS about the qualifications for ordained MEN in the clergy, and then, what it says must be heeded.  Scripture must be interpreted & followed with accuracy.  There is a blessing for obedience, and a consequence, for rebellion.  The consequence in the USA has cost our church over $1 billion, and counting.
Candy and Angelo - did you know that last year, a jury in Wilmington Delaware ordered St. Elizabeth’s parish to pay $3 million of a $30 million settlement, and the jury insisted the PARISH pay because they knew their pastor was molesting kids and they looked the other way. 

How much real hard cash would YOU be willing to pay, for the privilege of blind obedience? (Monsignor Lynn is now in jail, for his blind obedience to Cardinal Bevelaqua) How much will it cost each parish family to pay $3 million?

The Annual Diocesan Appeals at even wealthy parishes is about $235K a year. Most are about $35K a year.  But $3 million?  And for what?
(A note: From what I’ve read and heard, the conservative Anglican priests and their wives that have become Catholic, are very well received.  Catholics love them. I know of no case where there’s been a problem. God is blessing that effort.)

Many other signs were *DONE*.  It does not say, “Expect other signs to come because Jesus is still trying to get your attention.”  Like the Crucifixion, Jesus said: “It is finished.” Jesus is victorious. It is DONE. Finished.

When the apostles were alive, they did more signs, and those were recorded for the universal church, in the Bible-see Acts of the Apostles. But no more signs to come for the *universal church*. 

Faith in Christ comes by hearing about Jesus, of what He did for our sake. “Hearing” comes by the “word” of God.

Read the Pastoral Letters that Paul wrote to Timothy & to Titus.  We are commanded to spread the Good News - fulfill the Great Commission. With this new “Catholic Year of Faith” & the New Evangelization, we Catholics need to know what we believe.  We have to be on the same page (as God).  That’s reading the Bible.

It would be good for even priests & bishops to have Bible studies too, because of the poor decisions of clergymen like: Cardinal Bevalaqua, Bishop Finn, Monsignor Lynn, Fr. Thomas Williams (and his superior that KNEW he fathered a child in 2005, and yet he admitted that he allowed him to remain in the priesthood, as a media celebrity, & a teacher of Ethics.)

Imagine what it would be like if all these people spent LESS time scrutinizing Fatima, Medjeogougie, Lourdes, and the newest saints that are on the roster (like in small towns across the USA), and just became savvy about Scripture.  Really folks, we Catholics can change the world: God’s word will NOT return to Him void.  That’s a promise He made. Only we have to Know the Word, to be able to share it with others.

@Candy

In your earlier post you boast about being so busy teach catechesis - presumably at your Church.  Then in your imaginary correspondence with a priest you say, “However, I can never obey new teachings that go against the Catholic Creed.”

Your cover is blown!  Either you are not allowed to teach catechesis because you refuse to accept current teaching, or, you’re just randomly making stuff up.

If in fact you really did have this correspondence (highly unlikely), then I have to ask what did your priest do to tick off his Bishop so severely that he deserved the punishment of being assigned to your parish?

@Terah James on Friday, Sep 21, 2012 7:04 PM

Nice Post!

Some one asked. “how long will the US Catholic church look the
other way, insisting that it was Jesus that put a BAD system into place?”

  The U S Catholic church is not a legitimate church. Christ did not institute a U S Catholic Church. Now if you said, “U S conciliar church” none could quarrel with that fact. The conciliar church in any country is merely another denomination built upon sand and not upon Peter.

Terah James – have you read the testimony of Bella Dodd?  These ‘priests’ in the conciliar church were purposely placed within to destroy.  Don’t take my word for it.  The predator bishops and priests as we’ve noticed are never excommunicated and we’ve also noticed that the hierarchy covered over their misdeeds for years claiming they never knew.  They were in a position to know more than we’ll ever comprehend.  Fr. Groeschal recently blamed youth for causing the sexual escapades against them.  Has he been excommunicated?  Has anyone heard of his promotion yet?  These tirades are purposely planned to wear down resistance.

Candy, if you are in the RCIA program and if the ‘priest’ you had this conversation with is real, he would tell you to cease and desist any connection with the RCIA program and run to the nearest exit or he is no priest at all.  I’m very suspect of a priest that can explain the errors yet continues in association with those who teach it.  What a spineless man he is.

          I’ve had personal experience with the RCIA program as a conservative conciliarist.  Yes, I was once one so I’ve been there and experienced the atrocities.  I witnessed legitimate priests who practiced what they took an oath not to do.  One ‘priest’ told me he just never thinks about the Oath Against Modernism he was required to take when he became a priest.  The conciliar church has eliminated that oath plus some other essentials of the Sacrament of Holy Orders making the revised form null and void of any authority.  What will he say on that fateful judgment day?  How will he explain he gave up being a priest and preferred to be a presider putting the host into hands and   ………………..  I was shocked at what formerly traditionally trained priests and nuns were teaching to the RCIA candidates.  God granted me the grace to leave.  I had spoken out enough at meetings and none questioned why I left. 

Joe,
My experience is not the same as yours.

I overestimated your intelligence.  I did not realize you read backward.

The priest mentioned here is not my parish priest.  In this case, it is not the priest who is explaining the errors.  It is I, with the grace of God who is explaining the errors to the priest.  He is a very humble and holy priest who has seen the light.

I know many priests and work with many priests.

The priests in my parish are never seen without their clerical collars and cassocks.

These priests have the humility to see these errors because they pray, sacrifice and appreciate the gift of their priesthood.  They are devoted sons of the Mother of God – Christ our High Pries.  They are examples to other young priests and seminarians thinking of the priesthood.
 

The younger priests who are being ordained are enlightened to the sacredness, beauty and reverence of the Tridentine Mass; the Gregorian chant and the devotions that made so many saints.  The same reverence is observed at the Novus Ordo Mass where we have sing Gregorian Chants in Latin.  The Organ is the only musical instrument used.

The Gregorian choirs consist of mainly teenagers and those in their 20’s and 30’s with a few older singers.

On major feasts we have Tridentine Solemn High Masses.

The Priest in my church brought the Blessed Sacrament out of the wall and placed the Tabernacle at the center of Altar in the main church and chapel.

.
We have kneelers and people are beginning to receive our Blessed Lord kneeling and on the tongue. With proper catechesis, all these souls will soon be receiving our Lord kneeling and on the tongue.

We have Confession before every Holy Mass.  In our church, the priest is not the presider.  He is the “Alter Christus” priest who offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Before every Holy Mass. Confessions are heard, and the Holy Rosary is recited.

The priests wear proper Catholic vestments.  The ciboria, chalice, monstrance and everything that touches the precious Body and Blood of our Lord are made of the finest and most beautiful materials.  Beautiful Altar linen, incense, 6 candlesticks and crucifix on the altar has transformed my church into a true Catholic Church.

Applause and talking is prohibited in my church.

We Holy Hours before the exposed Blessed Sacrament and Benediction through the week.

Yes, I am very active and there are others I train, who work with me under the direction of the priest to provide proper catechesis in the schools.

We use the Baltimore Catechism which has undiluted teaching of the Catholic Faith; The Douay Rheims Bible with the Catena Aurea to explain.  The same applies to RCIA.

Humane Vitae is explained to couples getting married and married couples.  We have started hearing babies and children which is a blessing.  Young couples are having more children in this parish.

Added to this, I also work with real nuns.  Not those protesting feminists in secular garb.

Why would I leave when through the great mercy of God, He would use me as His little instrument to effect positive change that will bring the faithful back to the true teaching and tradition of the Church in my parish.

The clock is slowly but surely turning back to where it should be.

The modernists, feminists, heretics and imposters on this post, will be sooooooooooo upset.  I am not addressing any of them. 

@Candy.  OK, now we know you are perhaps the most messed up Catholic on the face of the earth.  Your assessment is thus:  (1)  The people are wrong on this blog.  (2)  Your Priest friend is wrong.  (3)  Pope John Paul II, John XXIII, Paul VI, and dear Benedict XVI are as well.  Still, you feel you must obey the church while calling your Popes all heretics.  How can you teach RCIA if you are not in full agreement with everything the RCC teaches?  Time for you find a Bible only based church rather than relying upon invented theologies and apparitions of Mary appearing in Chocolate Chip Cookies.

@Candy - Well, you’ve broken a record for pomposity, self-indulgence and mendacity.  Exactly what is your role/job description/position at your make-believe parish?  ...never mind, you’ll fantasize some grand role for yourself that far, far from reality.

@Candy:  Still waiting on your response of John Paul II changing the words of Hebrews 9:12 to fit his interpretation.  I thought he is not allowed to have his own interpretation (according to Catholic “sacred tradition”).

Ready for a new round of Copy & Paste.

Jason, What I should have written is, Your likes will not accept private revelation unless something in it, is there to defend you heresies. You say “I believe apparitions are needed by persons of weak faith…” You are right, that is one, and I say only one of the many reasons why God grants them. My faith was and still is weak. Private revelations caused me to become stronger in my Catholic Faith, they have caused in me to love Truth and Truth alone. One thing that amazes me is that in most private revelations, God send his Mother, to tell us once again, “Do all that he tells you.” As for Ven. Pius Xll, you may be correct that his enemies and the enemies of the Church have held back his Beatification and Canonization. There are those who demand that the Vatican Archives be opened on the war time Pope. The Vatican has made it clear, that the rules of the Church do not allow for the opening up of the Archives on anyone until 50 years after the death of the last witness. This in order to protect those still living and to protect the relatives of the deceased. Some have speculated that the Archives contain the names of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis in the extermination of their own people. If this is true, then here the Church continues to save and protect the Jewish people.

@Angelo - “Some have speculated that the Archives contain the names of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis in the extermination of their own people.”

Why would you possibly want to associate yourself with such a vile, despicable and ridiculous conspiracy?  As Joe Welch said to Sen. McCarthy, “Have you no sense of decency?”

@Angelo:  [“I say only one of the many reasons why God grants them.”]  Angelo, that’s interesting, but cannot the Lord reveal His presence in your life without an apparition of Mary?  Is He not a mighty God capable?  Is not the author of salvation mighty to save?  When you require a miracle, does He not show up Himself as with Hebrews in Egyptian bondage 420 years?  Did He not show up for Daniel in the lions den?  Was He not the 4th face in fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?

Celinedesilva, Your posts of sept, 21, 2012-10:57 AM 2:21 PM and 2:26 PM. Were a slap in the face to the Bible thumpers. They speak so much about scripture and here you present them with scripture in a most perfect manner, and they still reject it. They have proven their hypocrasy. They have proven themselves to be below heretics. Why do they post? I cannot figure this one out. satan sure is doing an obvious bad job in attacking the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Jesus Christ. They comment on your posts and I believe they don’t even read them. This must be where the expression of “Howling Heretics” comes from. Casting Crowns asks you, “Is this the best you can really do?” What stupidity! Clearly shows he has no real appreciation for scripture. Thanks for exposing them! Joe, before you critisize Celinedesilva, maybe you should first read her posts. I guess the reason I like her posts so much, is because I love sacred scripture, and don’t just claim to.

Terah James, Let me show you one example of where private interpretation of scripture is destructive. You cite Christ’s words, “No sign will be given you except the sign of Jonah”. Scripture speaks in another passage that the people marveled at the signs and wonders being performed by Christ. Our Lord said to them, “You will see much greater signs and wonders than these.”. Did Our Lord contradict himself, or did you err in your private interpretation of scripture? Casting Crowns, You question the Chastity of St. Joseph, I have tried to point out to you the teaching of the Church. Through the Ancient Liturgical prayers of the Church there is what is called the “The Divine Praises”, one of the liturgical praises is this, “Blessed be St. Joseph the Most Chaste Spouse of the Blessed Virgin Mary.” It being a Liturgical Prayer makes it Infallible Dogma. As for your question as to whether I believe that certain clergy are as “Angels of Light.” my answer is yes. Just lok at the list of Saints that were clergyman, and give attention to the “Angelic Doctor of the Church St. Thomas Aquinas”, just one out of thousands. You also say, “We are required to be vigilant and examine what they say”, this is exactly what we Traditionalists are doing and its bearing much good fruit.

Posted by Angelo on Saturday, Sep 22, 2012 12:23 AM (EST):

Celinedesilva, Your posts of sept, 21, 2012-10:57 AM 2:21 PM and 2:26 PM. Were a slap in the face to the Bible thumpers. They speak so much about scripture and here you present them with scripture in a most perfect manner, and they still reject it. They comment on your posts and I believe they don’t even read them. This must be where the expression of “Howling Heretics” comes from. Casting Crowns asks you, “Is this the best you can really do?” What stupidity! Clearly shows HE HAS NO REAL APPRECIATION FOR SCRIPTURE”

Angelo, Thanks.

Casting Crowns is not a “HE”

From the mannerless, petty, contradictory, repetitious, illiterate, ignorant, incohesive, feminist rant, displayed by the comments posted by this heretic and imposter, she/he has displayed her twisted psychology as one of a lunatic.

Go read her comments throughout this post and you will see.

Angelo,

Casting Crowns is also the type of feminist who is obsessed with sex and cannot and refuse to even entertain the reality of the Perpetual Virginity of Our Blessed Mother of God or the perpetual virginity of St. Joseph, her Spouse most chaste.

These are the lunatics who call for married priests, women priests, women popes and bishops, same sex marriage and the whole gamut of evil…

Lots of praying to be done To St. Michael the Arch Angel, defend us in the day of battle…

Celinedesilva, When I posted that comment, I had Casting Crowns especially in mind. SHE writes comments responding to your posts, that she herself has admitted not reading. That of course makes no sense! I was also thinking of Jason, Andrew and Terah James. How could these people claim to be Catholic and yet are very anti-catholic. They claim to believe so much in the scriptures and when you present them with scriptural passages that proves the Church right. They suddenly become anti-scriptual. They also seem to hate apparitions of our Lady, so I have this for them from St. John Bosco on the apparitions of Our Lady of LaSalette. I hope they read it as it speaks loudly to them;

“Prodigious facts have come to confirm this apparition, found in public records or attested by people whose sincerity and faith rule out any doubt. These facts are precious to confirm the good in their attachment to religion and to refute those who, perhaps out of ignorance, wish to set a limit to the power and mercy of God by saying that the time of miracles is over.”        St. John Bosco, Turin, 1875

Angelo,

This is also for Jason, Andrew and Terah James and the sex deviant Casting Crowns.

All these demonic heretics and imposters come quoting scripture like the devil who quoted scripture to our Blessed Lord.

When we answer back with Scripture and the infallible interpretation of the unchangeable Magisterium, of the Church they scoff like satan.

This Scriptural passage explains all.  I will let our Blessed Lord and Redeemer, Jesus Christ speak here.

[Matthew 4:5- 11 THEN THE DEVIL TOOK HIM UP INTO THE HOLY CITY, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,

[6] And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, FOR IT IS WRITTEN:
That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone.

[7] JESUS SAID TO HIM: IT IS WRITTEN AGAIN:

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

[8] Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,

[9] And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.

[10] THEN JESUS SAITH TO HIM: BEGONE, SATAN: FOR IT IS WRITTEN,

The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.
[11] Then the devil left him; and behold angels came and ministered to him

Candy, I claim no special intelligence.  Only by the grace of God go I and God granted me the grace to leave the conciliar church 5 years ago.  I most assuredly give you credit for your wealth of information, but I don’t understand how you remain in the church that abhors tradition and still must allow Liturgical abuses.  You claim things are changing but these are only tokens and false hopes because of the dying conciliar religion and the heirarchy’s very desperate need for money.  Even Benedict XVI bases your sentiments for bringing back some traditional practices   TOTALLY upon feelings, choices, enjoyment, diversity, affection, variety and just another option such as anyone of the 150 religions and practices at the ASSISI Meetings (that have not been condemned, have you noticed)?  There were no Catholics at these Meetings.  Indifferentism Supremely condemned is now acceptable within the conciliar environment.  Vatican 2 states that concilarists are to find truth with heretics because no one church has the fullness of the truth.  That has not been corrected nor 99 plus other errors of the council.
You sound like a Michael Voorist (spelling??) fan who believes that it is the laity who will correct the modernist hierarchy.  I dare say that your church, and I was once within it,  still says the novus ordo missae, prepares a meal for the assembly on a wooden table, puts communion in the hand handled by laypeople, has female servers and speakers,  and has music with loud hype and beat.  Have you seen the mass where the youth write their sins on a piece of paper, than these youth dressed in tight jeans and t-strapped garments, bring it to the presbyter who reads the paper, pats them on the head, and places the paper in a shredder that is on the wooden table set up for the novus ordo mess?
You paint a ROSY picture of the changes in your church, but what are the presbyters and bishops doing about these traditional practices?  When a female must aggressively lead these men in black, there is a major problem and as I’ve said before, run for the nearest exit. No lasting changes will take effect led by the laity.  It is the laity who must be taught by (true) bishops.  BTW, if these men in your church were ordained or consecrated in the NEWRITE they HAVE NO priestly authority.  They are mockers and are leading people into an abyss of woe.  These “men” are not allowed to say the traditional form of mass without committing to saying the NOVUS ORDO buginini/protestantized/one world order mess, plus other commitments such as to never speak against the Vatican 2 Council.  These men after all are only careerists and do not have a Catholic bone in their body. 
You asked why would you leave when you are so busy doing good things in your church.  You would leave because you are defending conciliarism/modernism in spite of the claimed changes that IS NOT the promulgations coming from current Rome.  Rome does not adhere to Traditional Catholic doctrine!  Who are you kiddin’?  Yourself!! And misleading many, Candy.  I believe you have a good heart; God knows your heart, but you cannot expect a final good lasting result to obtain a True Catholic Church when the building is owned by the conciliarists.  Get a GRIP!  RUN to get counseling from a true priest or bishop.  And   Candy, get the book “Work of Human Hands” by Rev. Anthony Cekada. 

@Angelo & Candy,

To cut through all the pompous diatribes.  You both think the Popes since Paul VI are not legitimate and you are passing that judgement, correct?  You both think the documents of Vatican II have ruined the Church and you think they are evil, correct?

@Joe - You make a good point regarding the Pope’s trivial concessions to the traditionalists.  You’re correct it’s not a “movement”, rather just some scraps thrown to make sure the collection plates don’t come back completely empty.

I believe you say you have left what you call the “Conciliar” Church?  I am curious as to what Church you have joined.  Is it something like one of those breaks-offs sponsored by Mel Gibson?  Or are you able to find what you need in a SPXS parish?

I’m interested to know.  Thanks

Andrew, I wish I good trust and be very specific.  I will share the following however.  When I saw the offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass 5 years ago, I never turned back to the conciliar (of course I did not know then that term) new religion.  Since studying the True Catholic Faith, I firmly believe that everything can be defended in the Missal and in the Mass promulgated by Pope St. Pius V.  Holy Mother the Church is alive, but in the catacombs.  I have no problem demanding an apology for the buildings,—- and the many Churches that the Roman hierarchy have stolen and do deny the True Mass to be said in them with the proper priesthood.  Most Catholic Churches now have been so ravaged to accommodate the changes that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass could not be offered in them as is.
I am not in communion with the”recognize and resist SSPX”  nor Mel Gibson’s group.  I’ve formed no opinion on the later.  I do have daily access to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the unchanged Sacraments.  Very often I ask what did I do to deserve this?  I have good friends still stuck in the conciliar church who just can’t manage to get out.  They do not think highly of my renouncement of the new religion and new mass fabricated by men.  My conciliar friends are like Candy who believe that the occasional ‘tokens’ handed out means that things will resume to Traditional Catholicism some day.  If one checks out the traditional Catholic sites, they will see that DAILY the People of God are being smacked in the face with hierarchal abuses and mockeries towards Catholicism.  It’s truly overwhelming.  I’ve witnessed every family I know being torn apart because of the explosion created in the 1962-1965 hijacked council.  I’ve recognized a major exodus out of the Catholic Church and many within have capitulated on truth.  So many now have altered their beliefs because of the changed way of praying at the “mess” called Mass and do not live as Catholics.  The’ve also stripped their homes of Catholic identities.
In these past 5 years I’ve gotten to know people who recognized the errors of V2 as soon as in the late 60’s and early 70’s and left then.  I am truly grateful and I have holy fear to lose the grace given to me to leave.  It’s not easy leaving family and friends, but that is just what happens.  Most cannot bear the loss in spite of this most magnificent gain. 
    Now, you probably wonder why I make comments in the NCR?  I’m baffled by the stubbornness of concilarists and I’m trying to understand why they stay even when they recognize some of the errors.  Just how many errors must they witness before they are sufficiently horrified and move out?  I know they hate the many irreverences, YET they still financially support it.  I can’t figure it out.  Can you?

@Poor Angelo [“I believe that certain clergy are as “Angels of Light.”]  I asked you that question to see what you believe.  I gave you too much credit for knowing Scripture.  Satan can appear as an angel of light, —even in the clergy.  But then, in your view of Catholicism, you cannot even imagine any of the clergy could actually be evil and leading you astray.  You and Candy are part of the problem.  Both of you are so Catholic myopic you cannot recognize Satanic deception in your own church.

Jason, Just goes to show you comment on posts, you have not read. If you read my comments you would know that I defend the Servant of God Pope Paul Vl, I pray to him daily. I do not reject any of the Church’s Popes. I uphold Vatican Council ll as a Traditional Council in line with Tradition. It seems your pompous diatribes are just tinsel. What happened, did you finally read Celinedesilvas posts? Seems like your coming from the hurt feelings department. Did something she say accuse your conscience? Next time read the posts, then comment on them. Don’t attempt to comment on posts you have not read, it makes you and others look silly.

  Angelo, Can you list at least 5 ways the conciliar church is similar to the Traditional Catholic Church?

It certainly is not in the liturgical practices; it certainly is not in the way the assembled People of God pray.  It certainly is not in the Sacraments. It certainly is not in the furnishings, the /priestly/ vestments; it certainly is not in the new values and the NEW theology; it certainly is not in the n. o. mass spoken in the vernacular nor Latin - presbyters do not know the Latin language; it certainly is not in the Eucharistic ministers putting communion in hands and handling the ‘sacred vessels’; it certainly is not in the new breakable vessels used on the wooden table without sacred relics, a Crucifix and Tabernacle;  it certainly is not in the bows of the presbyter (I believe there are only 3 in the new mass); it certainly is not in the posture of humility by those assembled to receive the meal in hand; nor is it in the reverence and awe of the supernatural; and it most certainly is not in the Roman Canon where the Liturgical Movement headed by Josef Jungmann, Louis Bouyer, Giovanni Montini, Annibale Bugnini began knifing it in the ‘40’s……….etc.  Just though I’d eliminate some you might think are similarities.  Now it’s your turn!

Joe, I have answered you that question on this thread and on another. Why do you keep asking me to answer the same questions over and over. Where will it get us. It is clear my friend, that we have in the past only gone around in circles like a dog chasing his tail. You are sticking to your guns, so understand that I am doing likewise. I will not compromise my Catholic faith. Some rightly consider me a Traditionalist, but no one has ever accused me of modernism or liberalism. My faith is in the 2000 year Church founded by Christ. You well know that I battle against both heresy and schism. I would gladly give my life for my faith and my faith is all that the Catholic Church teaches. If I thought answering you again would make a difference, I would answer again. But it got us nowhere before, so what would be the difference now. Please tell me if I am wrong. Should you say that I am wrong then I will answer again.

Angelo, I’ve never seen your answer.

Joe, I got down to 12 similarities, but since this is a trick question I will not name them after all. I could have with my limited knowledge, listed several tens of thousands. I don’t like trick questions, especially when I have given the answer many times to the same questions, to the same person. Why do you ask such questions? When you well know modernism is the problem and not Vatican Council ll. You want to convince that V2 is the problem. Why? You said something today to the effect that V2 taught that all religions are as good as another, you cited this as one of the errors of V2. Joe, you know the Council never taught such a lie. Joe, you need to read the Council Documents themselves before making up things like this. You need to stop following false prophets, it is urgent, as you are becoming one of them. I would hate to think that God in his justice, would name my friend among the false prophets.

Celinedesilva, I have a holy envy for the parish you belong to. When you described it, it was the parish I could only imagine belonging to. You must be very happy. If God would only grant me the grace to find a parish like yours in my area. But for now I accept being nailed to the Cross with Our Lord. Like Our Lord, being nailed to the Cross I cannot move. But if it is his will that I suffer this, then his will be done and not my own. I feel saddened for the others on this thread, as they know nothing about loving Holy Mother Church. You and I have been blessed by God. How I wish everyone were blessed the same way. But we all have a free will. And we cannot force anyone to accept this pearl of a great price. God Bless you! Please continue your prayers for me, as I will continue my prayers for you. Blessed be the Great Mother of God Mary Most Holy. And let us thank Edward Pentin for the opportunity to speak our minds.

@Angelo:  [“Celinedesilva, I have a holy envy for the parish you belong to.”]  I do not.  Seems like a parish to avoid if people like Candy are there promoting legalism.

@Angelo:  [“If you read my comments you would know that I defend the Servant of God Pope Paul Vl, I pray to him daily.”]  That’s interesting.  What purpose is served by praying “to” a dead person?  We are to pray to the Father (as did Jesus).  Why go roundabout when you have direct access to the Lord?  Oh, must be more sacred tradition, (when examined fully) praying to dead people is contrary to the gospel.

Casting Crowns, The parish of Celinedesilva is all about what you call a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Only we call it being in union with Christ. In her parish its all about God. It is not about me me me, as the parish you probably attend. Try it one day, I assure you, you will in fact encounter God. Thats the way it should be!

Posted by Angelo on Saturday, Sep 22, 2012 10:40 PM (EST):
“Celinedesilva, I have a holy envy for the parish you belong to…force anyone to accept this pearl of a great price. God Bless you! Please continue your prayers for me,.. my prayers for you.”

Dear Angelo, Thank you.

The parish I am speaking of was not always like what it is now.  We prayed for years that God send us priests who were true Shepherds of souls and lived their Priesthood as “Alter Christus”

GOD NOT ONLY ANSWERED OUR PRAYER BUT SURPRISED US WITH 2 YOUNG BEAUTIFUL PRIESTS who are on fire with love for God, His Blessed Mother-Mother of Priests, for souls and love for His Church.  We support, encourage, help, defend and pray for our holy priests daily.

The two liberal priests we had for many years cared more about being liked than being Shepherds.  They initiated and allowed desecration and irreverence especially at Holy Mass.  They never preached the truth of the Gospel or taught the Magisterium of the Church as it was required by God and the Church. 

Together with all the priests, bishops, cardinals and popes, they will all have to answer God one day.  As for Cardinal Martini who was given so much yet did so much damage and have led so many souls astray, he has already faced the Judge and must reap his just reward,

Though I belong to this parish for 20 years, we rarely went until two years ago.  We found a parish that offered the Most Sacred and Reverent Tridentine Holy Mass and travelled a distance for Sunday Mass.  It was at this Holy Mass that my sons, now young men, got their thirst for learning about our precious Faith and great love for Mother Church.  They too are now very active in many aspects of parish life: Sacred Music; training…, catechesis, serving at the Tridentine Holy Mass and much more.

My teenage nephew turned his life around after coming to his First Solemn High Mass offered up by our new young priest.  He too now serves at these Holy Masses.

I am grateful to God for His great goodness and mercy shown to us. “His goodness and mercy has followed me all the days of my life”

Contd…

Contd…

Angelo,

Get together with people of like mind as St. Paul tells us, and pray that God give you priests as we have in our parish.

I have written much on this post.  What I have written is not my teaching but what Our Lord Himself taught and is interpreted by our Holy Mother the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

These words of our Blessed Lord is fulfilled, even on this blog by some of the comments here:

“GIVE NOT THAT WHICH IS HOLY TO DOGS;

NEITHER CAST YE YOUR PEARLS BEFORE SWINE,

LEST PERHAPS THEY TRAMPLE THEM UNDER THEIR FEET,

AND TURNING UPON YOU, THEY TEAR YOU.” MATTHEW 7:6

Thank you to The National Catholic Register and “Edward Pentin for the opportunity to speak our minds.”

Angelo, I shall always remember you and yours in my prayers as I know you will too.

I am sure we will meet on another post at another time.  Until then, I sign off.

With St. Teresa of Avila I can truly say,

 
I am and will always be a daughter of the Church.

God bless.
Celine

I would be willing to bet that Angelo and Candy are the same person.  Any takers?

@Angelo:  [“It is not about me me me.”]  Keep on fooling yourself with deception, Angelo.  Christ did not die for the sins of the church.  His cross paid for your sins and mine.  That’s personal.  As for “me, me, me,”  your parish priest will not be standing with you at the judgment nor will JP2 or Benedict or anyone else.  It will be you (personally) before Christ alone.

Jason, I don’t think they are the same people.

I detect a strong man pleasing spirit.  We should all fear it of ourselves.

Angelo,  The Mystical Body of Christ was changed at Vatican 2.  Now The People of God new church, the Vat 2 Declaration “Nostra Aetate”, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islamism, and Judaism are given explicit recognition despite the fact that Hinduism and Buddhism worship false gods, Moslems deny the Trinity/ the divinity of Christ, and the Jews reject Jesus Christ as the Messias.  The modern hierarchy bends over backwards to seek a false unity amongst all religions, Christian and non-Christian but most assuredly has an amazing intolerance towards and awards NO RECOGNITION to TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICISM.

Angelo, Communion can be given to schismatics and heretics without their return to the Catholic Church according to the New Canon Law.  B’nai B’rith are now called brothers.  Supreme Buddhist patriarch in 1984 received John Paul II seated on his throne; 1984 Rome supported the foundation of the biggest mosque in Europe;==== the decree on Dignitatis Humanae is on religious liberty.  Relious Liberty has been explicitly condemned by Pontiffs.  It is the most destructive and the most controversial document of that council.  Since the V2 council there is no role for missionaries to convert to Catholicism.  Their role is merely TO PROMOTE THE GOOD IN THEM!

Angelo, Christ founded His Church to teach all nations not to recognize the good in them and dialogue!  Where would the Catholic Church be today if it merely ‘promoted the good’ in the false religions!?  The public gatherings to worship with animists, voodooists, shintoites . . . . . cannot be interpreted ‘in light of Sacred Tradition’.  To maintain that ALL religions are acceptable is to imply that Jesus Christ wasted his sufferings to reveal the true Faith.  Why should He have accomplished His dying on the Cross if in the final analysis manmade religions would be acceptable?  What a betrayal, a SHAM and a MOCKERY of Jesus Christ V-2 is!.  It abandoned the religion revealed by God as so stated in “Mortalium Animos”.  The well studied methods of subversion have even baffled Celine who has a grasp of truth but is willing to overlook the shenanigans of the renegades at V 2 council.  Her conservative/traditionally minded priests are merely victims of the newrite of ordination.  They are laity dressed up in fancy garb leading a mass called Traditional and tainted with modernism. The presbyters cannot disassociate ecumenism from the liturgy.  See “A Pioneer of the Liturgical Movement” by Dom Lambert Beaudoin:  Liturgy and the Unity of Christians.  The liturgical changes emerged into false ecumenism.  Pope Pius XII condemned its deviations.  I’m spoon feeding you, Angelo.  You’re a smart man and should be discovering these things for yourself.

Jason, I’ll take you on! I am not Celinedesilva. We are of the same Catholic Faith whom God the Holy Ghost inspires us. If Celinedesilva and I are the same person, then millions of us Catholics are the same person. I have always been mystified how we Traditionalists all have the identical same love for God, Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, Our Most Holy Lady, The Church and all her Holy Teachings. We have a unique courage to stand up against error and this courage comes from God. We are much despised but we count this as a blessing from God. We have no intention of being in a popularity contest. When it comes to popularity, it is something that we can easily cast aside out of love for Christ Jesus. Try meeting other Traditionalists and you would think they were all Celinedesilva and Angelo. Because we have unity in our Faith, the same unity as all Catholics who have loved Christ and his Church for 2000 years. If you wish to still believe that Miss Silva and I are the same person, go for it!

Joe, I do agree that it looks like the Mystical Body of Christ seems like it was changed. But it was not changed by Vatican ll. All the problems in the Church in the last 45 years have come about by the resurgence of modernism. Bl. John Paul ll condemned this as the mentality of, “The spirit of Vatican ll”, The Holy Father condemned moderism in many ways. for example, in the beggining of his Papacy, the retoration of the Tridentine Mass was his first priority, He ordered all priests to return to the use of the Cassock, ordered all Religious to wear a clearly identifiable Habit, ordered the restoration of Latin in the Liturgy, excommunicated modernists, reproved many modernists with the threat of excommunication, He had Cardinal Ratzinger defend the purity of the faith, as Ratzinger and he were of like mind, he strongly encouraged devotion to our Lady, Adoration of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, the restoration of reverence and the sense of mystery in the Holy Mass, encouraged Communion kneeling, blasted Communion in the Hand, he forbade it in the whole City of Rome, he forbade priests to enter Rome without Cassock, He drew the ire of modernists who acussed him of turning back the clock, he restored Traditional devotions ect…ect…ect… Bl. John Paul ll loved Vatican Council ll, because he understood it correctly. He deplored the modernist distortion of the Council. Many Traditionalists will not recognize these things, they condemn many of the actions of Bl. John Paul ll, the only thing is that the Holy Father was a grand theologian who knew right from wrong, his wisdom was that of the great Fathers of the Church. This problem among the faithful is not new. When Bl. Pius lX declared as a Dogma the Immacualte Conception, there were many who knew more than him and spread condemnation of Bl. Pius lX. After Vatican one, again many knew more than the Pope and caused a schism, today they are called the Old Catholics. The name sounds great, but they are now ordaining woman priests and even woman bishops. Such happens when one breaks union with the Supreme Pontiff.

Celinedesilva, It saddens me that you are sighning off. But I understand, as we are dealing with those who caused and are causing damage to the Church. You done a great job of defending the Faith. You used Sacred Scripture and Tradition to defend the Truth, and you were critized as a “Copy and Paste” Catholic. Its too bad they did not read what you so called copied and pasted, they did not recognize that you were letting the Church speak for herself. You done a marvelous job and I greatly admire your style. When at times I critized you myself, know that It was the pride of satan that I may have fallen into. And I apoligize for this. Keep up the good work! We have assured each other of our prayers for one another, and I’m confident neither of us will fail in this. God Bless.

Angelo, Even Celine understood the atrocities of Assisi Meetings.  That established a major part of who JPII was.  JPII portrayed over and over the man he was; none other has done it to him or for him.  Traditional Catholics are not OLD Catholics.  Once again, you make comments without proof.  The only excommunications were Traditional Catholics.  If JPII forbade “it” and it still continued that should explain to you the lack of true intention but foistered a false premise of changing back to Sacred Tradition.  JPII opposed and contradicted his predecessors and Magisterial Teachings handed on by Holy Mother the Church.  No pope contradicts former popes and their teachings on Faith and Morals.  Yes, a major expression of rebellion was the Assisi Meetings.

Chew on this news item, Angelo:
However, despite Gates’ very public and aggressive international effort to distribute unhealthy drugs that violate Catholic sexual morality and even kill the unborn, Catholic Church officials have been virtually silent on the matter with not a public word coming from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) or even Gates’ own bishop.

What can the men in black say to defend themselves when theY corrupt our youth with pornographic materials in their schools.  See “Growing In Love” curriculum at motherswatch.net I know I’m a broken record.  These men are using our youth to destroy the Catholic Faith and the world is shattered with their loud SILENCE!

Joe, As for the Assisi meeting of 1986, I was on a pilgrimage in Rome. I was handed a flyer in front of the Basilica of St. John Lateran. The flyer condemned the planned Assisi meeting by the SSPX. This caused me to look into it when I returned home. I found the Assisi meeting very interesting, with much admiration. The world at that time was on the verge of Nuclear War, it could have started at any moment as Countries were making serious threats against one another, and they were not empty threats. The world was just waiting to be evaporated, death and destruction was imminent. Bl. John Paul ll called on religious leaders of all the religions in the world to come together in one place to pray to God in their own tradition for peace. Each different religion was to represent all their people created by God’s love. No religion was allowed to pray together, each was to gather and beseech God for peace in their own tradition. Catholics were not allowed to pray together with any other religion. After Assisi the immediate threat of nuclear war was lifted. How could God have ignored all humanity, his creation begging for peace. Many fail to understand what Assisi was all about, they argued that the Tradition of the Church was that no Catholic could pray with a non-catholic. They claimed this was done at Assisi by orders of Bl. John Paul ll. It was not! Modernists of course had to get in on this moment. Mainly modernist Franciscans, who invited pagans into the Basilica to pray to their false God’s. They were harshly disciplined for doing what was expressly forbidden by Bl. John Paul ll. As for the Old Catholics, I said the name sounds good, but I tried to point out that their schism, or breaking union with the Supreme Pontiff has led them into much error. The Old Catholics are not to be confused with Traditional Catholics today, as they both are totaly different. Old Catholics is just the name these schismatics chose for themselves after they broke from the Church after Vatican Council One. One point you miss is that the Church came down much harder on heretics than Traditionalists, Ever heard of Fr. Charles Curren, Fr. Hans Kueng ect…

@Angleo, you and Candy are the same person ( even if only in general thought process).  We do need the church, however, your preoccupation with all things institutional and obeying dead popes divert your mind away from being in the center of God’s will for your life.  At the end of one’s life you will not be judged by the adornment, pagentry, fancy vestments and catechism coming from the Vatican.  Indeed, whom did you share the gospel of Jesus Christ with?  We are disciples of Jesus because He has forgiven us for our sins.  He paid a price we could not pay ourselves.  For this we are eternally grateful.  The intensity by which you and Candy remain so focused upon keeping church rules and reguations misses the whole point.  You may have life in church but you do not have life in Christ.  You are not saved by church membership (as you and Candy seem to believe).  You are only saved by the shed blood of Christ on Calvary.  For someone to tell you otherwise is total deception —no matter how many fancy vestments they wear on Sunday. 

Joe, On the Gates, Melinda Gates actions have been harshly condemned by those in Rome, by the American Bishops and by Catholic leaders around the world, as well as Religious leaders of other religions. How could you say that the Gates actions have not been condemned? Joe, you have got to read other publications to know exactly whats happening in the Catholic world today. Give yourself that freedom, I fear from where you get your information. Mainly because it is so innacurate. There are those who claim to be Traditionalist, but in fact are lieing devil incarnates. When they are shown their lies and innacurate information, they do not correct it but instead stay clear of correcting their misleading information. Their aim is not love for the Church, their aim is in misleading the innocent and making money while their at it. Please read other publications.

Angelo, the man in the moon knows more about the dogmas and doctrines of Holy Mother the Church then you advocate.  Assisi gatherings have been formerly condemned.  If you think God allowed a condemned action to bring about a good end, you are delirious.  You must go back to Catechism 101 = the Baltimore Catechism and run from the church you are attending.  Find ASAP a legitimate bishop or priest to assist you into forming a Catholic conscience.  I’m not up to date on “Old Catholics” but I am quite certain, they existed before Vatican II.  I’m a traditional Catholic but you and I have nothing in common.  We did when I was in the ‘conciliar establishment’.  I considered myself conservative in it and lamenting the disgusting displays of irreverence time and time again by the priests, by the bishops, and their acceptance of it by the laity.  Well no wonder, they had lost their Catholic conscience and could no longer teach the faith.  There is no one remembering the Assisi Meetings as you do.  BTW, heretical actions are dealt with by excommunications, not merely harsh disciplines.  Which ones of those disobedient at Assisi wer removed from their position, Angelo for committing such grievous errors?

Angelo, the silence of the U S Bishops on the contraception/Gates issue is interesting.  What can the U S men in black say after all when they receive funds from the Gates foundation that is known to be anti life.  I got the article from New Oxford Review, a conciliar publication.  Check it out:
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/

Angelo, you asked if “Ever heard of Fr. Charles Curren, Fr. Hans Kueng ect…”  This is interesting.  Where are you going with this?

That’s a good question, Joe.  I know Frs Hans Kung and Charles Curran.  But I don’t know who these chaps are that Angelo brings up.

Casting Crowns, You certainly are not a Catholic, nor are you in the conciliar church in spite of the many accomodations it has made for protestants.  So you must be in a remarriage and now you have to justify your lack of faith in the Catholic Church “as a former Catholic”.  The conciliar church is making strides to accomodate remarried couples since they hand out annulments like candy.  Of course you can’t comment on this, but that is my take on your comments.

@Joe,  You have determined that I as a Catholic cannot reject all the legalism Angelo and Candy focus on.  I find your comments fascinating in that Jesus did not create a bureacracy to which His church has evolved.  He preached the gospel without the need for all the red tape you ascribe to.  All your attention to Popes X,Y and Z, various writings by saints, Bishops and others, it’s a wonder you have time for Jesus.  Where does Jesus fit into your schedule?  Paul was never distracted in the way you are, thus Paul would likely not be allowed today as an RCIA candidate.  Is that a concern?  How far have YOU (Joe) strayed from the original teachings of Jesus?

Casting Crowns, One of the main tenets of organization are rules. Without rules their is no organization, only mass confusion. The institutions of the Church are all God oriented, they all have to do with the Divine worship of God and mans eternal salvation. It is not so much the rules that we follow, it is the spirit of the rules. Such as the Holy Mass for example, the Mass and the following of the rubrics has to do with one being able to worship God in spirit and in truth, this is done perfectly at a Tridentine Mass. While the Novus Ordo is tainted with many Liturgical abuses which cause only distraction and is far from being organized. The Mass is the reenactment of the Crucifixtion. It is a Divine and not a human act. God offering himself to God in atonement for our sins. Why would St. Paul say that he who eats the Flesh and drinks the Blood of Christ unworthily does it to his own damnation. The Last Supper was the start of Christ’s Passion and Death, and he ordered that the Mass be said continuously until the end of the world. He chose men to stand in his place visibly in offering His Sacrifice. If you deny this, you deny the whole of salvation history. As for the Vestments at Mass, in my opinion today they are ugly and not worthy of God. In the OT it was God himself who demanded that priests wear rich Vestments in offering sacrifice. The Catholic Church is the OT in its fullfilment. The early Catholics kept all that was good, that God previously commanded. Is God not worthy of it? God told St. Catherine of Sienna concerning priests who were in charge of the Sacred Vestments and the adornment of His House, “My house they humble, but their own dwelling places they lavishly furnish.” God was condemning their actions. God alone is worthy, and it is up to men to see that His worthiness be upheld.

@Angelo:  I prefer to view the tenets not as rules, but as proper reverence, protocol and church discipline.  We agree that acceptable and appropriate behavior is needed along with a mindset seeking to honor the Lord through the ritual of worship.  Despite it’s casual form (and less than reverent format) I believe the Novus Ordo still honors the Lord but the real damage is that people become too cavalier and less serious regarding Christ in their lives.  The effect is that church is presented so casually that serious devotion to Christ (and the importance) escapes most people.  I will comment more on your other points later today.  The Novus Ordo is very weak structurally and the homiles offer no teacahing at all.  All priests are trained to do is give a “nice” message which does not offend anyone.  Is is not ironic this “nice” message is given just ahead of the Sunday collection?

Joe, You say, “I’m a Traditional Catholic but you and I have nothing in common.” Perhaps you are right for once. I am a Traditional Catholic in union with the Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am obedient to the Vicar of Christ. I believe in all the Church teaches. I believe that Christ the Invisible Head of His Church, chose a representative to be his voice on earth, he is Traditionaly referred to as the Pope, the Visible Head of the Church. Today Christ has chosen Pope Benedict XVl to lead us. Christ never had the intention that people should lead the Pope. When I mentioned Fr. Charles Curran and Fr. Hans Kueng ect… It was to counter your idea that the Church comes down harder on Traditionalists than on modernists. Next time go back to what you wrote, then read the whole sentence or sentences I write in response. As for Andrew, there he goes again, not reading the comments then commenting on what he did’nt read. Andrew if my grammar bothers you, then don’t read (read???) or comment on them. So Joe I see we have nothing in common as we belong to different religions. I to the Roman Catholic Church founded by Christ whose Visible Head is Peter. As for the New Oxford they once defended the Catholic Church but have since changed religions. They discovered that there is more money in attacking the Church than in defending it.

Casting Crowns, Blessed be God! For the first time we actualy agree.

angelo, I’ve proven to you some contradictions of Vatican II to the Teachings of Holy Mother the Church.  All it takes is one drop of poison and the whole council must be dismissed.  It is impossible to connect the dots to Sacred Tradition.  I keep reiterating this like a broken record and you keep defending the errors.
As for the GATES issue, if you read what youth read in the U S bishops’ schools you might understand why they are silent?  The sexualized catechetics IS destroying Catholicism.  Sex ed in schools has been condemned and you still give the hierarchy a pass while our youth’s minds are being bombarded with trash.  Shame on you, Angelo defending the raising of barbarians. 
When I was a conciliarist I read the New Oxford Review and my friends hated it also.  If they are wrong in their positions, Angelo, prove it!

Angelo, I don’t know about Curran but “Fr.” Kung was very influential in developing the novus ordo/protestant/lutherized mess called Mass and he was also very influential at the Vatican 2 Council.  Kung considered the Roman Canon that saved souls for 1400 plus years deficient.

Joe, You have failed in trying to convince me that Vatican Council ll was in any type of error. Your latest example of your so called errors of the Council, is that you said V2 claims that one religion is as good as another. The Council never said this! You have been led astray and you want to lead others astray. As for Fr. Charles Curran and Fr. Hans Kueng they were just examples of those modernists disciplined by the Church. You claimed that only Traditionalists were treated this way by the Church. When I gave these 2 examples I added ect… as in there are many modernists disciplined by the Church, much more than Traditionalists. Such as the excommunication of Archbishop Milingo only a couple of years ago. Yes you keep reiterating things like a broken record. Now you can see what I meant when I said about answering the same questions over and over, questions reapeatedly asked by the same person. I’m signing off on this thread. God Bless!

Hard facts (copied text):
1. The new religion (of Vatican II) is not catholic, or universal, since without unity of doctrine, without consistency with the past, catholicity is impossible.
2. the four marks of the Catholic Church cannot be found in the new religion of Vatican II.
3. there is no apostolicity. The Vatican II religion has dissolved the bonds of unity with the apostles in doctrine, worship and discipline. It has broken the line of apostolic succession by the invalid consecration of bishops. It has altered the Apostolic constitution of the Catholic Church by altering the notion and role of the Roman Pontiff.
4. the new religion is nothing but a non-Catholic sect, just one of so many which have risen up in the past two thousand years in an attempt to alter the Church of Christ.
5. There are four principal heresies contained in this Council.
6. The first is that of ecumenism, found in the document Redintegratio Unitatis, which teaches that non-Catholic religions are means of salvation. This heretical doctrine——. This assertion is directly contrary to the doctrine that outside the Church there is no salvation, which Pope Pius IX called “a most well-known Catholic dogma.” Both the notion and the practices of ecumenism were condemned by Pope Pius XI in the encyclical Mortalium Animos of 1928.
7. The second heresy is that concerning the unity of the Church, namely that the Church of Christ is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church, but merely subsists in it. This heretical doctrine is contained principally in Lumen Gentium, and its heretical meaning is confirmed ……particularly in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, in the 1992 Statement concerning Church and Communion, and in the Ecumenical Directory. It is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, contained principally in Satis Cognitum of Pope Leo XIII, Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI, Mystici Corporis of Pope Pius XII, and in the condemnations of the “Branch Theory” made by the Holy Office under Pope Pius IX.
8. The third heresy is that of religious liberty, in Dignitatis Humanæ, which nearly word for word asserts the very doctrine which was condemned by Pope Pius VII in Post Tam Diuturnas, by Pope Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos, by Pope Pius IX in Quanta Cura, and by Pope Leo XIII in Libertas Præstantissimum. The teaching of Vatican II on religious liberty also contradicts the royalty of Jesus Christ in society as expressed in Quas Primas of Pope Pius XI, and the constant attitude and practice of the Church with regard to civil society.
9. The fourth heresy is that of collegiality which alters the monarchical constitution of the Catholic Church, with which she was endowed by the Divine Savior. The doctrine of Vatican II, confirmed by the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which states that the subject (the possessor) of the supreme authority of the Church is the college of bishops together with the pope, is contrary to the defined doctrine of the Council of Florence and of Vatican I.

Angelo posted:  “As for the Vestments at Mass, in my opinion today they are ugly and not worthy of God. In the OT it was God himself who demanded that priests wear rich Vestments in offering sacrifice.”

That’s is because they are not true priests who are dressed in hideous vesments - they do not follow the rubrics of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  These presbyters are all that Martin Luther desired of them and the mass to be and much much more.

Not for the feint hearted.  This is the conciliar church today:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A487-BsAs-Homo.htm

Joe:  What should be of more concern is the value and importance that clergy place in fancy vestments.  Episcopalian and Anglican priests wear vestments as well.  No wonder their transition and conversion to Catholicism make their transition quite seamless.  Priests could wear a suit and tie IMO.  I am more concerned with their devotion to Christ over the routine of ritual exercise.  I am more annoyed with unprepared and “winging it” homilies which say and teach nothing.  Clergy which have nothing to say regarding the gospel should resign their ordination.  The last command from Jesus was that his apostles TEACH—and not parade around in the finery of fancy vestments.

Casting Crowns, The transition of the Episcopalians and Anglicans are according to the conciliar rites and not according to Holy Mother the Church.  They brought into the new religion of Vat 2 a lot of acceptable baggage.  You can find on line “Fathers” Ratzinger and Rahner at Vatican 2 council with suit and tie.  It’s a well known fact, but not with conciliarists who prefer to forget it.  The homilies in the conciliar church are meant to be love, love love and more love and a socialized gospel.  I once sat on edge hoping for a proper homily and was so often let down.  The proper term is ‘sermon’ in the Catholic Church by the Holy Priesthood.  Hell exists and it is good to have holy fear of it.
The presbyters are not after all legitimate clergy since the NEWRite of Ordinations changed the essentials of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
    The Command of Jesus was to teach and baptize into His church and not have tea and crumpets seeking unity and truth with heretics who reject the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  The vestments have major significance, Casting Crown.  Each one is significant for the Mass, most suitable and respectful.  Presbyters have been stripped of the proper garments for they do not offer a true Mass.

It is according to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition to pray for the dead, C C.  We are to pray for Church Suffering (those in Purgatory) and when they have entered into Church Triumphant, they will pray for our good and Final End into eternity with Our Father, Our Blessed Mother and all the Saints.

Finaly a new subject. In the OT God not only commanded the rich vestments for the offering of sacrifice by the priests of the old law. God gave the measurements and what they were to be made of, mainly gold, silver and precious gems. The early Christians did not do away with this tradition, they adapted them to the New Testament. All the vestments are rich in meaning. Take the Chasuble, by Tradition we know that when Jesus as a child began to walk, Our lady wove a garment of one perfect piece without any seams of any kind. The Seamless Garment grew with Christ. The Chasuble represents the seamless garment as it is cut out of one piece of cloth. All the other vestments are rich in salvation history symbolism. A priest told me that the Square Chasubles and the Fiddleback Chasubles are making a comeback, especialy among young priests. The first time I seen a Fiddleback Chasuble was when my wife and I attended Holy morning Mass at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome. It was awesome, they were of brocade, silk, precious stones ect…In one hour we heard 3 Masses. 2 priest wore Fiddleback and one wore the square chasuble. These Sacred Vestments are worn for the greater glory and honor of God and not that of the priest. 45 years ago priests began changing to the ugliest vestments possible, all in the name of personal humility. Oh! what false humility. The vestments are meant to glorify God, not the priest. Thus the words of God to St. Catherine of Sienna, “My house they humble, but their own dwelling places they lavishly furnish.”

About those of us with non-Catholic Christian backgrounds, and that like the Vatican II reforms, and the Novos Ordos liturgy, it was written in a previous post by someone:
“These are the lunatics who call for married priests, women priests, women
popes and bishops, same sex marriage and the whole gamut of evil…”

Speaking for myself, I am opposed to women priests, women popes and bishops, and I am an avid supporter of traditional marriage between one man and one woman (no same sex anything, when it comes to unions), and further, I am 100% Pro-Life, from the womb to the tomb.

However, I am in support of married priests, bishops and popes.  It is our institutional church that became obsessed with sexual matters, making the flesh: bad, and the spirit: good, and it was a carry-over from PAGAN converts, to Christianity, in the early days of the church, as early as the Year 200, if my memory serves.

At the Council of (some city in Spain) long before celibacy was embraced by the universal church in Rome in the year 1139, to combat abuses of priests leaving church property to their children (legal children and out of wedlock offspring).  Prior to that, most ALL ordained men were married.
The role for women in the institutional church is as the wife of a priest, and the mother to his children.

Even the Orthodox have it wrong, to allow priests to be married, and to not allow married bishops.  Was St. Peter not a bishop?  He called himself “another elder”, but surely, he had more authority than an average elder.  To be a Pharisee, they HAD to be married, to give them credibility and clout.  Thus, a request for a married priesthood is not to be considered as a request for “the whole gamut of evil.”

Why doesn’t anyone just stick to the FACTS in the Bible about the qualifications of ordained men?  It’s very important that His Church is obedient to His word.  The kinds of clothes clergy wears is not important.  It has no eternal value.  The Great Commission: sharing the Good News of the Gospel, is what matters.  It is the condition of our hearts.  God the Father wants our obedience, to Him (through our belief in Jesus), not our obedience to men that can’t even agree with each other.

If they only stuck to Scripture, and taught it IN CONTEXT, and paid less attention to what early fathers wrote, our church would be healthier, growing in numbers, and growing in love of Christ & what He did for us sinners.

I apologize - my thought did not come out correctly about the Council that was held in Spain.  What I meant to get across is that the gathering was local, and it was not a gathering of the universal church.  So it took hundreds of years for that early gathering (in the 400’s?) to become the norm for Rome, that adopted it in the year 1139, forcing women and children of priests, bishops (and at least one pope) into poverty, and abandonment.  Not a “What would Jesus do?” moment in our church.  It’s just history.  Look it up for yourself - get an authorized version, not whitewashed.

Speaking of the V2 abuses.  This week those of us who are extraordinary ministers of Communion at my parish received an e-mail from our ‘Pastoral Associate” telling us that we were not to minister to anyone who presents themselves to receive on the tongue.  The only exceptions are for people holding babies or on walkers or otherwise disabled.  Have any of you ever heard of this?

Keith T.  How many abuses will it take before you realize that you are not in the Catholic Church but the new religion fabricated by modernists who hi jacked the Vatican 2 council?

Keith T., What your ‘Pastoral Associate’ is calling you to do is called a liturgical abuse. It is considered by Rome as one of the worst abuses second to being forbidden to kneel for communion. Some years back Bl. John Paul ll issued a statement condemning such actions, calling it “A grave violation of ones Christian rights”. Many say report it to the Bishop, the only problem is that such people who commit these grave violations have the backing of their Bishop. If the Pastoral Associate is a liberal woman, then be careful they are known to be dangerous. Complain and she will see to it that you live to regret it. I know we have one of those in our parish, she’s destroyed 2 priests and is starting on her third. You should report it to the Papal Nuncio. But do know something, it is not a V2 abuse, rather it is a grave abuse against V2.

@Angelo, what you describe is happening in many parishes.  Feminist nuns placed into the role of Pastoral Associate are actually approved of by many Pastors.  So many of these men are weak leaders and enjoy having a dominant woman running various pastoral ministries.  These priests are using such female dominant nuns to replace their mothers psychologically and they rather enjoy having these women serve as replacement mothers in their lives.

Well, this Pastoral Associate is a male and he’s fairly new to the position.  I should say that he sent the e-mail, but I have no intention of withholding the Eucharist from anyone who presents on the tongue.  Personally I prefer to receive in the hand, but I have no issue with those who wish to receive either way.  I’m sure I’ll get taken off of the Ministry schedule for good once he sees me minister on the tongue.  And unfortunately if the Pastor doesn’t want to do anything about it, I’ll have to just find another Parish.  I hate the idea of leaving my Parish of many decades, but I’m too old and don’t have the interest in fighting it up the diocesan chain.

Fascinating conclusions you draw Casting Crowns, I never thought of that psychology.  Do you think that will be true with the newer priests and nuns?  I wonder how that all will shake out.

OFFICE FOR THE LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20100526_communion_en.html

Communion received on the tongue and while kneeling

The most ancient practice of distributing Holy Communion was, with all probability, to give Communion to the faithful in the palm of the hand. The history of the liturgy, however, makes clear that rather early on a process took place to change this practice.

From the time of the Fathers of the Church, a tendency was born and consolidated whereby distribution of Holy Communion in the hand became more and more restricted in favor of distributing Holy Communion on the tongue. The motivation for this practice is two-fold: a) first, to avoid, as much as possible, the dropping of Eucharistic particles; b) second, to increase among the faithful devotion to the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

Saint Thomas Aquinas also refers to the practice of receiving Holy Communion only on the tongue. He affirms that touching the Body of the Lord is proper only to the ordained priest.

Therefore, for various reasons, among which the Angelic Doctor cites respect for the Sacrament, he writes: “. . . out of reverence towards this Sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this Sacrament. Hence, it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency” (Summa Theologiae, III, 82, 3).

Over the centuries the Church has always characterized the moment of Holy Communion with sacredness and the greatest respect, forcing herself constantly to develop to the best of her ability external signs that would promote understanding of this great sacramental mystery. In her loving and pastoral solicitude the Church has made sure that the faithful receive Holy Communion having the right interior dispositions, among which dispositions stands out the need for the Faithful to comprehend and consider interiorly the Real Presence of Him Whom they are to receive.

(See The Catechism of Pope Pius X, nn. 628 & 636). The Western Church has established kneeling as one of the signs of devotion appropriate to communicants. A celebrated saying of Saint Augustine, cited by Pope Benedict XVI in n. 66 of his Encyclical Sacramentum Caritatis, (“Sacrament of Love”), teaches: “No one eats that flesh without first adoring it; we should sin were we not to adore it” (Enarrationes in Psalmos 98, 9). Kneeling indicates and promotes the adoration necessary before receiving the Eucharistic Christ.

From this perspective, the then-Cardinal Ratzinger assured that: “Communion only reaches its true depth when it is supported and surrounded by adoration” [The Spirit of the Liturgy (Ignatius Press, 2000), p. 90]. For this reason, Cardinal Ratzinger maintained that “the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species” [cited in the Letter “This Congregation” of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, 1 July 1, 2002].

John Paul II, in his last Encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia (“The Church comes from the Eucharist”), wrote in n. 61: “By giving the Eucharist the prominence it deserves, and by being careful not to diminish any of its dimensions or demands, we show that we are truly conscious of the greatness of this gift. We are urged to do so by an uninterrupted tradition, which from the first centuries on has found the Christian community ever vigilant in guarding this ‘treasure.’ Inspired by love, the Church is anxious to hand on to future generations of Christians, without loss, her faith and teaching with regard to the mystery of the Eucharist. There can be no danger of excess in our care for this mystery, for ‘in this sacrament is recapitulated the whole mystery of our salvation.’”

In continuity with the teaching of his Predecessor, starting with the Solemnity of Corpus Christi in the year 2008, the Holy Father, Benedict XVI, began to distribute to the faithful the Body of the Lord, by placing it directly on the tongue of the faithful as they remain kneeling.

Fr. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, in hisThe Catholic Answer Book (Huntington, IN: Our Sunday Visitor, 1990, pp. 92-99), informs us of the following:

1. Communion in the hand, standing, was the norm for the first few centuries.

2. As eucharistic doctrine developed and abuses increased, the Church mandated that communion was to be on the tongue only (by the early Middle Ages).

3. Communion on the tongue is still the universal practice for the churches of the East, both Catholic and Orthodox.

4. During the Protestant Revolt, communion in the hand became a way of asserting the priesthood of the laity and a symbol of the denial of the Real Presence; therefore the Catholic Church held firm.

5. Liberal Catholic countries such as Holland, France, and Canada began experimenting with communion in the hand in the late 60s.

6. Pope Paul VI, in the 1969 document Memoriale Domini, outlined all the reasons why communion in the hand was inadvisable and why the traditional method was to be preferred and maintained. But he allowed a “loophole” for countries which had begun the practice illicitly to petition the Holy See for permission.

7. In 1977 a bare majority of bishops in the United States - going against the local tradition - voted for communion in the hand and received permission to introduce the practice.

8. Most countries in the world do not permit communion in the hand.

9. Liturgical law permits standing or kneeling, but the General Instruction of the Missal indicates that if the faithful stand to communicate, they must genuflect before receiving.

10. No one can be forced to stand to receive communion.

11. No one can be denied the right to receive on the tongue.

12. For the above reasons, Pope John Paul II frowns upon the practice of communion in the hand. It is against universal liturgical law.

13. John Paul II has specifically addressed these matters in Inaestimabile Donum, in which he spoke forcefully against several eucharistic abuses.

14. John Paul II has repeatedly spoken out strongly against lay people distributing Holy Communion unnecessarily. He has said that priests who fail to minister the Eucharist themselves exhibit a “reprehensible attitude.”

15. The Pontifical Commission for the Authentic Interpretation of the Code of Canon Law stated that lay people are never to serve as extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist when sufficient priests and deacons are available (not just ones who are celebrants of the Mass).

16. Liturgical books are quite clear about the importance of genuflecting as a way of expressing adoration of the eucharistic Christ; a bow doesn’t fulfill the requirements of adoration, no matter how devout.

17. Lay Eucharistic ministers, according to Immensae Caritatis (Pope Paul VI’s decree permitting this practice) and the revised Code of Canon Law, are only supposed to be used in these circumstances:

a) Lack of a priest, deacon, or acolyte;

b) Inability of the priest to function due to health or advanced age;

c) A very large number of communicants.

Fr. Stravinskas writes (pp. 92-95): “The lived reality in the United States has had negative consequences. This is one of the most serious problems to emerge in the postconciliar Church in America, since it touches on the very heart of the Catholic Faith and practice . . . in a most visible way, affecting every Catholic . . .

“By permitting nearly anyone at all to distribute the Eucharist, we are communicating a message at the symbolic level that this action is really not all that special. What is anyone’s responsibility is no one’s responsibility . . .

“[This] fosters the American ‘in and out’ mentality of Sunday Mass . . . This approach, though almost always innocent, nonetheless culminates in a desacralization of the Church, the Eucharist, and the priesthood . . .

“The whole point of the [Second Vatican] council’s theology of the laity was that the laity had their own unique role to play in bringing the Gospel to contemporary humanity - in the world, not in the sanctuary . . .

“The role of the priest is to preach and administer the sacraments, so that the laity can be faithful witnesses in the world, thus inviting people there to follow Christ . . .

“Please note that we are not concerned with heresy here but with an imprudent, unwise liturgical practice, reflective of bad sociology. Like other Americanisms in the Church, this one fails to take a holistic view of reality, neglects long-range implications, and does not take seriously the nonverbal, symbolic power of liturgical communication . . .

“The Church refers to [eucharistic servers] as extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. They are so called because they are to function only in extraordinary circumstances . . .

“And we wonder why people lose their Faith in the Real Presence [some 70% of Catholics in America deny transubstantiation] and even leave the Church!”

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 2010

Cardinal Arinze: Communion on the Tongue and Kneeling is the Church Norm
[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.[176]

[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.[177] Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

[92.] Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,[178] if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to the faithful.[179]

~ Excerpt from: Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist ~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXzsyuytMlQ

CARDINAL BURK ON HOLY COMMUNION ON THE TONGUE

For those who want to hear: “The Holy Father is giving a very clear lesson by his own insistence that the faithful receive Communion kneeling and on the Tongue. He’s teaching us something. This is a decision which he obviously made with much thought and for good reasons, and so to me it’s the case to Teach the faithful once Again about DUE REVERENCE ON RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION and to Encourage them to consider a return to that traditional form of Communion KNEELING and Receiving Holy Communion on the TONGUE.” -Cardinal Burke

Keith T.    Only consecrated hands can touch the Host and the sacred vessels.  Allowing lay people to touch the Host (which of course is not legitimately consecrated – the form and matter have been changed) is to attack the Catholic dogma on the Real Presence and the priesthood that communion on the tongue symbolizes.
It is a fact:  Holy Mother the Church has never changed the proper method of communicants kneeling and receiving communion on the tongue.  You are experiencing issues because you are in the ‘conciliar church’ and NOT the Catholic Church.  Holy Mother the Church does not allow laity nor altar servers to touch the Sacred Host nor the Sacred Vessels.  Keith T. you don’t have to ‘fight’ for corrections.  You need to find a true priest or bishop to assist you to the church instituted by Christ.
        I have no problem expecting an apology for the churches confiscated by Rome (of course I’ll never get it.)  not allowing true priests and bishops who say the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Holy Mother the Church is alive and is well but you will not find Her in the buildings owned by Rome.  I can’t be more specific.  There are hundreds of errors practiced in the novus ordo missae and you are assisting merely by attending.  How grievous you allow yourself to assist as a lay minister.
Communion in the Hand has been condemned no less than 5 times by Pontiffs and councils.

Keith T. - Rome is desperate and is giving a strong pretense of returning to Traditional ways after 50 plus years of abuses in the Mass.  The periti/modernists/and other unkind references to these men who hated Catholicism were given the green light at Vatican II Council.  Annibale Bugnini and the 6 protestant ministers who contrived the new mass to be ecumenical – to not be ‘offensive’ for protestants were finally able to complete their deed after the V – 2 council.    Now ‘communion’ is given to any who ask for it without conversion.  Actually, what would they be converting to but to another denomination amongst the thousands of protestors against Catholicism.  Keith T. I’ve been in the Vatican II new religion.  I personally experienced and witnessed many abuses and heard the promises to correct abuses.  How can they be corrected if the interior of these churches confiscated have been so badly ruined to look like tombs and no legitimate priests are being ordained?!  It is only by the grace of God I was able to leave and find priests who have left the Vatican 2 new religion or have never participated in it.  Read the book, “Work of Human Hands” by Rev. Anthony Cekada.

@Candy:  [“4. During the Protestant Revolt, communion in the hand became a way of asserting the priesthood of the laity and a symbol of the denial of the Real Presence; therefore the Catholic Church held firm.”]  Your source, please, re which Protestant document(s) assert that Communion received in “the hand” was strategized to refute the Real Presence?  Research will show Luther (as a Catholic priest) made no such argument.

@Candy:  [“a way of asserting the priesthood of the laity”]  Sorry, Candy, Pope Peter has ALREADY refuted your postion by his teaching principle in 1 Peter 2:9 that all believers are Priests:  “But you are a chosen race, a Royal Priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”  In fact, you must be dozing during Mass since the celebrant declares us as a Royal Priesthood.  Furthermore, This access is secured by Christ’s work on the cross. We have boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus as written in(Hebrews 10:19). The Holy Spirit enables our access,—as we “have access by one Spirit to the Father stated in (Ephesians 2:18).  We may go further and state that this access to God is direct access. Direct, that is, through Christ,—and without the intervention of any other human.  You have thus ignored 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

@Candy:  The true need for a mediator (Priest) as required by OT Law ended at Calvary with Jesus—the Great High Priest.  If this were not true, please explain the reason for the Temple veil of the curtain being torn NOT from the bottom up but from the top down.

Oh jeepers!!  I was just asking if anyone had ever experienced an Associate saying that receiving on the tongue was not to be allowed.  Actually, I’m not sure I got the answer in all of the lecturing replies.  I certainly didn’ t expect to be to I was grievous in allowing myself to server as an extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist!!! 

Thanks anyway.

Keith T, are you giving up on righteousness and truth with this reply?  Keith T. on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 11:26 AM (EST):

Communion in the hand effected all Catholics.  The shift from kneeling to standing and having lay people and not the priest only touch the supposedly Sacred Host personally affected every Cathlic.  Abolishing powerful symbolic gestures of reverence to the Body and Blood of Christ   sent the message to Catholics that your faith in the Eucharist must no longer be as before. 
      Another tragerdy after Vat 2 is that all in the assembly should receive communion.  Confession is no longer a requirement.  Presbyters do not give homilies on mortal and venial sin?  Confession is almost abandoned since man meets man at the time of his birth according to “universal salvation” and the inflation of human dignity and priestly people.  No longer do communicants consider “they are not worthy”.  The assembly of people have surpassed the importance of the priesthood and the Holy Orders.  For both practical and new theological motives, Eucharistic ministers serve the meal and clean up the vessels while the presbyter sits.

I use to switch lines to avoid Eucharistic ministers, especially the improperly glad females.  No wonder once those assembled had received the meal, they got busy putting on their coats, gathering up their things, talking with their neighbor and the presbyter soon gave the final blessing and a joke.  Presbyters became entertainers as part of the new mass hoping those attending would come back real soon.

The Sacrament of Baptism makes us part of the Priestly people of God. Rome issued a statement not too long ago warning that we as a priestly people is not to be confused with the Sacerdotal Priesthood. They are totaly different. Many have gone into error thinking that we as a priestly people gives us the right to give orders to and overule the Church Hierarchy. This is an error fabricated by modernists. As for Communion in the hand, it is true that at one time that was the norm. It was changed for obvious reasons pointed out. One of the things about Communion in the hand in the past history of the Church, is that it was done with great solemnity. Each had his own Communion cloth, the sacred Host was placed in the hand over the communion cloth, so no lay person ever actualy touch the Host.

Angelo, the Sacrament of Baptism is to remove original sin and for the Godparents to renounce satan.  Adults receiving the Sacrament of Baptism also receive the Brown Scapular Other notable changes of the Sacrament of Baptism was the prayer of exorcism and the anointing with oil of catechumens are omitted.  There are other changes but I’ll mention one other and that is the role of the RCIA program replaced the proper role of the parish priest to instruct converts to Catholicism.  If any one has had experience with RCIA, they will know what a disaster that program is.  There is a very high drop out rate of those initiated into the new religion with RCIA.

Joe, I before did’nt like the idea of receiving Communion from an Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister myself. But then I realized Christ is no less present in the sacred Host if I receive from such a person. There are many abuses in this area, Take the reason why the Holy Father allowed Extraordinay Eucharistic Ministers and the rules set down by the Holy See vs blatantly ignoring those rules. You point out about communicants preparing themselves to leave once having received our Lord, no sooner do they receive our Lord that they forgot him. A priest would speak of this, he would ask, “If a friend came to your home, would you glady greet him, then turn and ignore him for the rest of his stay?” and would add, “that is what you do with Christ the Divine Guest in your soul in holy communion, no sooner do you receive him than you forget and ignore him.”. As for the priest acting like entertainer at Mass, it has been harshly, very harshly condemned by Bl. John Paul ll and Benedict XVl. It is my opinion that this happened when the fad of turning the Altars around came about. As for turning back the Altars to their proper place, Pope Benedict XVl said, “It would be done gradualy. Ordering them to be done immediatly could cause the loss of many Catholics as the Church lost many Catholics when the Altars were first turned around.” All of these type of abuses were not called for by V2, they were the result of the resurgence of modernism with a blast.

Joe, As for the RCIA, I could only say its a disaster in my area. Non-Catholics are being allowed to convert to the Faith with some type of assurance that they could believe whatever they want, no need to adhere to the teachings of the Church. As for Baptism I agree that in the so called updating of the Ritual for the Sacrament of Baptism, we lost much. But what we did’nt lose was the essential, Baptism itself. Joe, We are in fact according to Scripture and Tradition a “Priestly People”. I would like to understand more about us as a priestly people, but I must find a pre-vatican ll book on this, only to be assured of the truth and not someones wild ideas.

Angelo, you live in a dream state.  It has been 50 plus years of abuses in the Mass and Paul VI was in favor of these changes before Bugnini and the protestants fabricated the lutheran mass/novus ordo missae that Paul VI promulgated.  Conciliarists are not Catholics.  They wil not tolerate the disciplines of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  Furthermore, there are no legitimate priests in the conciliar church.  Presbyters allow these Eucharistic ministers. Transubstantiation is a foreign word to all of them.  If they believed in it they would all run for the nearest exit.

Continually there are abuses.  One of the latest is a n o mass on a beach in Germany.  The assembly are seated on the sand, the presbyter is shown in t shirt and shorts.  You fall for the claimed disciplines, but the presbyters are trained to be creative in their own ways of saying the n. o. missae.
As for ‘priestly people’ read the lives of the Saints.  Daily we honor popes, bishops, martyrs, virgins, confessors……..  These are the people we are to emulate.  We are all called to Sainthood but that is not the call of the Vat 2 religion.
You blame the modernists post V-2.  Don’t you know who wrote the documents of that council, Angelo? Get a grip!  You can’t be that uninformed of these writers.

Are you following the changes to the “Latin Mass” by Benedict XVI to be more like the novus ordo missae?  Effective December 2nd it will become the motu mass of 2012.  More changes will be coming in the new mass.

@Angelo:  Re the RCIA and your experience from your area, I was a member of the RCIA team in my parish 10 years ago until a New Age liberal feminist nun was hired by the Pastor as “Pastoral Associate.”  The so-called “team” which had been in place for a few years were quickly moved into the role of being nothing more than potted plants and/or coffee & cookie servers.  The “team” was singular—this nun.  Only SHE would meet with, talk with, and instruct these candidates.  It was all about her.  And the Pastor then (and now) agreed.  The rest of us were her flunkies.  One of our former team ended up quitting after one month.  I quit (never to return) once this nun announced to the new catechumens they “do not have to believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis.”  I then asked “What else concerning the Bible do they not have to believe?”  Apparently, this nun’s feminism had a disdain for the word “Father” (as in male authority) and was more comfortable with not using this term is some female catechumens preferred “she” or a non-genderized God.  This nun is still in the same role and supervises the music and liturgical ministries.  Essentially, she runs the parish except for saying Mass and handling business activities although she does serve on the Parish Council and Finance Committee.  My disenchantment with RCIA is that the real name should be the Rite of “Catholic” Initiation of Adults since the term “Christian” is never applied.  The agenda is to funnel in new Catholics to the church rather than to introduce people to Jesus Christ. It’s run like each parish has a quota to fill for the diocese.  And once the RCIA program has ended a few weeks following Easter Vigil, all these people are left to go it alone.  There is no follow up nor initiative to introduce new Catholics into church life and the family of God.  In my view, parishes do a very poor job of follow up with these people.  And—if you are a Senior or single person it is no wonder they find more welcoming and Christian fellowing down the street at the Christian or Evangelical church.  Parishes are primarily geared toward married couples with children.  For widows/widowers, singles, etc—they treat these people like they barely exist.  Surely there may be some very good parishes out there, but most, (in my experience) have no idea of what “outreach” is except that “Oh, they do that at the Evangelical church down the street.”  Outreach for Catholics is for the poor, hungry and crisis pregnancy centers all run by Catholic agencies like St. Vincent de Paul or the Knights of Columbus or a local Catholic Soup Kitchen.  They won’t touch building any alliance with any group or Christian church soley on the basis of being *not* Catholic.  There is too much pride going on in the church by many leaders and laity both at the parish and diocesan level.  The local diocesan monthly is filled with with people received awards for this, that and muchado about nothing.  Bishops awarding plaques, certificates to people for almost nothing.  It’s like the Obama philosophy of “every child gets a trophy.”  You find nothing in the paper about Jesus, the Holy Spirit nor how the Lord makes application of the gospel into people’s lives.  Stories abound concerning the wealthy elititst Catholics, donations, capital campaigns and Bishops pressing the flesh like they are grateful politicians.  Jesus is nowhere to be found in any of this.  Second Collection on Sunday (one a rarity) are now occurring 3 out of every 4 Sunday’s.  $$$ has become the business of the church as in the Temple atrocities Jesus had contempt for.  Until there is a revival and these leaders are replaced with true men of God who can initiate reformed theology bringing Christ back to primacy in the lives of people by TEACHING the gospel, we will be weighted down by all these bureaucratic distractions.  When Jesus was found in the Temple by Joseph and Mary He said:  “Did you not know I must be about my Father’s business?”  His “business” was the gospel.  The business of the Catholic church today is just——“business.”

Casting Crowns, the issue of the “CONCILIAR CHURCH” is all about men dressed as priests some of the time running a business.  These men for the most part are puppets making a mockery of a mass and the seven sacraments.
  The Latest Numbers from the conciliar church (2010)Show a Continuing Decline. Membership Has Fallen by 18 per Cent in Europe Just Twenty Years.  Drastic steps will be taken to maintain the decline.  Yes, the DESIRE TO DESTROY is a reality.

@Joe, Yes, the numbers are in decline and attendance at Mass is far less than years ago.  Sheer attrition means the average Catholic today is only familiar with the Novos Ordo and thus, the laity has no recall to anything else.  The homilies are God-awful.  No preparation and no expository teaching.  No wonder so many former Catholics have left to join with the Evangelicals.

Joe, You remind me of those bearded cartoon men carrying signs, The world will end today”. Joe you have said that you were once a CONCILIARIST (pardon the foul language) Catholic. And now you know all! Tell me Joe, would you say that all your years in the conciliarist Church as you call it, were a total waste of time, all your prayers in vain, all your efforts to serve God useless ect.. And that now you only merit God’s condemnation and punishment for your crimes of conciliarism? Do tell Joe!

Casting Crowns, You described almost all of the parishes in my Diocese. Everything you said is true of my parish and many other parishes in my area. One thing I hope you have not had to bear with is, The Grand Ritual of the reading of the bulliten right after communion. The Mass in my parish cannot end, until they announce the bake sales, food sales, this week and next week, A big thank you to this person and that person, the applauding for birthdays, anniversery’s and so on. Joe says its all been called for by V2, it saddens me that he does not know the difference between the Vatican Council of Arabia, the vatican council of anywhere and the Second Vatican Council.

Celinedesilva, My wife is from Mexico, she came to the US with a Visa. When she first attended Mass in my City, she wondered whether our parish was Catholic or not. She found it horrifying. A few years later, having gotten accustomed to Mass in the US, she returned for a visit to her parents and family in Mexico. She tells me that upon attending Mass in Mexico, she held out her hands for communion, the priest was horrified. After Mass her parents and family demanded to know whether she was still Catholic or not. The thing about this is that Mexico was the first Country to have communion in the hand. But the people rejected it, they found it to be a sacrilege, an insult to God. Communion in the hand is still allowed in Mexico, but when I went there, not one single person received in the hand, they will not insult God in that manner!

I was in Mexico just last year and everybody took communion in the hand.

Andrew, Did you by chance go to one of those Masses that the priest wishes to make the greatest Show on Earth, there are such parishes, such as the ones people in Mexico laugh at and make jokes about. In my wifes hometown the Charismatics wanted to infiltrate the parish Church, but the faithful prevented it, So the modernists built their own Church. By the parish priest’s insistence La Presidencia (City Hall, Police department) ordered it be built outside City Limits. The Church is supposed to be new, but it looks like an abanded montrosity. The 400 year old parish Church looks 399 years younger.

Angelo, it saddens me that you like some of my friends are still stubbornly stuck in the conciliar church and refuse to grasp that the periti had an agenda prepared before Vatican 2 Council.  In order to change what the Catholic Church has always taught, John XXIII gave the modernists the green light along with Paul VI to use only selective versus of Sacred Scripture and selected portions of pre-V2 writings (Sacred Tradition) in order to invent new formulas, invent contradictory principles of the Roman Catholic Faith, appeal to false antiquity, implement the use of vernacular, promote a hatred for tradition, remove devotions to Saints and to Our Blessed Mother, replace the altar with a table, change the function of the office of Peter, change the music, promote ecumenism and religious liberty, in other words -  promote what had been condemned by Pontiffs———and if you cannot discover all these novel inventions written in the documents of the council, than the ‘spirit’ of the council paved the way to such extremes as the Assisi Meetings, clown masses, beach masses, dancers and nudity at mass, lay homilists, vulgar music, no more talk of original sin, the Sacrament of Penance abolished, no to pray for souls in purgatory and hell - well I guess that froze over ……..

It is only by the grace of God go I, Angelo.  I did not deserve the truth I have discovered.

Joe, The main error unleashed from Vatican ll, was Religious Liberty. If not for this document, all ultra-tradionalists would have been declared Anathema! But this document holds the Holy Roman Catholic Church back. Maybe Vatican ll was wrong after all. Your starting to convince me. If the Church does not excommunicate all those who are against Vatican Council ll, then I’ll be forced to believe that paganism is completely in line with Catholicism. Perhaps a better religion than ultra-traditionalism, at least they have got their act together. Sorry Joe, you will never convince me to hate Christ’s Church, with a bunch of silliness.

Angelo.
1.  You are not in Christ’s Church.  Christ’s Church does not err.
2. If the hierarchy gave a hang about the welfare of souls and the fact they carry the weight of their sins to their judgment,  they would renounce the whole council. 

You have admitted to the error of religious liberty.  All it takes is one drop of poison and the total council must be invalid.  The Mass of Paul VI is impossible to correct.  The nature of it is ecumenism, modernism and the assembly of a meal.  Nothing can save it.  Since the new mass of 1969,  the declines in the U S:
1. 72% Ordinations
2. 90% seminary enrollment
3. 60% teaching sisters
4. 55% Catholic school enrollment
5. 60% Mass attendance

In Europe Catholic life is almost dead.  Christendom is becoming Moslemized.  Instead of a “new springtime” it has turned out to be an atomic bomb that has set off a nuclear winter.  Paul VI mass is the engine that set up the religious revolution to destroy the faith and V-2 spirit paved the way.  How much cleaner and more effective has been the Vat 2 takeover to destroy Catholicism than all the bloody persecuting cruelties of Nazi Germany and communism.  Freemasons likewise have hated the Catholic Church for years and knew that in order to advance their evils they must destroy from within.  Statistics proof their successes.  Get a grip on what youth are taught in bishops’ schools and you cannot deny the intention to destroy the Faith.

Posted by Joe on Thursday, Sep 27, 2012 10:48 AM (EST):
“Are you following the changes to the “Latin Mass” by Benedict XVI to be more like the novus ordo missae?  Effective December 2nd it will become the motu mass of 2012.  More changes will be coming in the new mass.”
****************************************

JOE- An older friend of mine has been asking me about this, saying “new Mass” is coming this winter.  I told him we got the new Mass liturgy LAST winter (Advent 2011).  I thought he was just old and confused.  From what you write above, there are more changes coming?  Please, what changes??? 

To comment on something written above about the Mass, and its purpose, and the veil in the Temple, when Jesus died, was torn from TOP to BOTTOM, meaning God the Father, Himself, gave us access to Him, as His children: please allow me to point out the veil tore, it is not still tearing.  Dead Jews are still not rising from their graves, the earthquake in Jerusalem is not still going on, the sun came out, and stayed out, it’s not still dark.  The Roman Centurian, that said, “Surely this was the Son of God”, is not still standing by the Cross.  Same with Jesus having said, “It is finished.”  We need to believe Him.

And a point about women taking over in leadership roles in churches, I believe (but I may be wrong) it began in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, that many years ago looked for new and improved methods to man churches, and lay roles were expanded.

It’s not bad, in & of itself, in my opinion, but lay MEN are not stepping to the plate, so these pastoral roles (basically as PASTORS) are going to aggressive & overbearing lay females (and nuns) that are, for lack of better words, Priest-Wannabees.

Priests I know allow themselves to be led by them, and bishops have been appointing them officially, as Pastors - but without that title, to appease more traditional Catholics.  I object to women running parishes.

@Terah James - “for lack of better words, Priest-Wannabees.”

Some might say of lay ministers that they are Priest-oughttobees

ThirstforTruth——this is in response to your admonishment of Casting Crowns on Friday, Sep 28, 2012 11:08 AM (EST):  I’m posting it here because the moderator might not allow it to be posted in the comments of “As Occult, New Age Practices Increase, so Does Need for Exorcists (12097)”
            It appears that you’ve misunderstood completely John Paul II’s personality and intentions in his book, “Crossing the Threshold” and also you have not explained why you are using terms that the conciliar church, post Vatican II new religion, never uses.  The Council of Vatican II only made references to its past selectively; therefore, it turned its back on Sacred Tradition and these two words are never used together in the 16 documents.  The conciliar church’s intention is to demystify God and the supernatural because it focuses entirely upon the divinity of man.  Paul VI Mass has stated redemption is for “ALL” and sin, original sin and sinners are never to be mentioned in the mass.    The Sacrament of Penance is no longer necessary since all who are in attendance at the assembly of Paul VI Mass are invited to the meal regardless if they have been accepted in the conciliar church.  Purgatory and Hell exist no longer according to the impulses of the new religion of post Vatican II.  It is not by grace but it is according to John Paul II who was a prominent Council Father that the ground work for a steady renewal of the church paved the way for a new theology and new guiding principles that embraced ecumenism and dialogue with non-Catholics, frankly heretics.  It maintains that all men are saved even without the Church Christ established.  Yes, the novel transition to solve conflicts in the world is the adaption of “universal salvation”.  This new ‘faith’ is not dogmatically laid down, but John Paul II demonstrated an abandoning of the past Faith at the Assisi Meeting 1986 in that “all men no matter what religion they profess, have access to God”.  All men in their respective beliefs with the wonderful transcendence of the ‘human’ spirit are united in the Church of the Living God without effort, without sacrifice, without conversion.  Cardinal Wojtla’s precise explanation is that: “Christ reveals man to man himself’.  The enlightened man whether he knows it or not, whether he accepts it or not has a formal union with Christ and in the trinitary life of God right from birth.  There are ‘no fallen creatures’.  If any of this sounds muddled and farfetched, I can understand.  You have mastered what Holy Mother the Church teaches.  What I fear you don’t grasp is that what has formed your Catholic conscience is not in the post Vatican II religion.  Read:  “Pope John Paul II’s Theological Journey to the Prayer Meeting of Religions in Assisi” by Fr. Johannes Dörmann; and read “Work of Human Hands….,” by Rev. Anthony Cekada for the substance to these comments.

Joe, I have known people to be in error on what the Church teaches. But you take grand prize for it. You have absolultly no understanding of the Church. You find fault everywhere and good nowhere. Never have I known anyone in such error about the Church as yourself. You need to do a reality check on your Faith. Catholic it is not!

Angelo,  the Vat 2 document, “Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christians”, Nostra Aetate October 28, 1965 para. 2 states:  “The Church, therefore, urges her sons to enter with prudence and charity into discussion and collaboration with members of other religions.  Let Christians,…acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among non-Christians…..”
So there you have it, Angelo.  I could be a voodist, an animist, witch craft practitioner, or atheist even, and you as a conciliarist are told to dialogue and collaborate with me.  Traditional and supernatural faith for my justification are no longer required for my salvation since ALL people from birth are redeemed.  This is the new theology of man, the universal salvation that unites us all, that encompasses all believers in all religions.  That’s the new age of conciliarism, Angelo.

see Griff Ruby’s masterful “Down the Yellow Brick Road to Apostasy: the Lumen Gentium Syndrome] Conciliariests claim that the Church of Christ extends beyond the Catholic Church and is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church.

Pope Pius XII, in his encyclical Mystici Corporis (1943), explicitly taught that the true Church of Jesus Christ is the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church.

@Joe, the reality to all of this is that the church of Pius XII is not coming back.  People who think every pope since him are all illegitimate—-then what are you going to do about this?  Better to place your faith in Christ first BEFORE any institutional church.  The Kingdom is——-within you, not in the institution.  When you die, I can assure you no pope will be standing with you.  Only you and the Lord.  That’s it.  There will be no questions regarding the Latin Mass or Novos Ordo.  Moreover, “Whom did you tell about my Son?”  “What did you do with this Jesus,—and the Good News?”  There will be no exam on the catechism.

Casting Crowns
1.  The pre-conciliar Roman Catholic Church exists and remains faithful to Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium without exception.
2. Popes are Christ’s personal representative with the gift of infallibility to not teach error in regards to faith and morals. 
3. Christ instituted His Church as Teacher and the defender of the Total Deposit of Faith/Revelation.
4. You have forgotten ‘obedience’ to the Commandments –“ let there be no strange Gods before Me”, says the Lord.
5. A socialized gospel living will not save one’s soul.

@Joe:  Re your numerical points:  1.  The current church does all this.  You are in a very small minority.  So, again, what are you going to do,—start a revival of the church prior to John XXIII?  2.  This point is invented and “claimed” theology.  Every follower of Christ is a “personal” representative.  Popes are not sent from Heaven to rule on Earth.  They are mere men.  Peter, the first pope actually took instructions from Paul.  Peter claimed no special delusion of infallibility.  In fact, his fellow apostles chastised Peter for His time spent in Antioch with Gentiles and hauled Peter’s rear end back to Jerusalem.  4.  I have no “strange” gods —I worship the Lord only,—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  He is not a “strange” god.  5.  I do not support, but reject the liberal socialism the church and the USCCB have been promoting.

Casting Crowns, 
1. The gates of hell have not and will not prevail against Christ’s Church as promised.  Holy Mother the Church exists.  It is the society of the faithful; Spouse of Christ; Mystical Body of Christ; continues the work of Christ; the sole depository of the merits and doctrine of Christ; nourishes life of its members with the sacraments; contributes to all that is good; is guided by the Holy Spirit; is the contact between the triumphant, militant and suffering Church……….
2. Christ built His church upon the Rock of Peter, His personal representative.  You worship the God of your design without submissionn or obedience; therefore,
3. You really are a heretic, aren’t you?

@Joe:  The “church” is all who are in the body of Christ.  Even people like yourself who are in disobedience to Vatican II.

Joe, So there I have it! According to you. Re-read what V2 said. The moral truth that we must respect in other religions is in fact the same moral truths of the Catholic Faith. Did you read the part of V2 that says other religions have elements of truth. That is when what they believe is in full accordance to the Catholic Faith. Those are the truths we must respect as they are in fact Catholic teaching. Joe, Come back to the true religion.

ANGELO,  In Mystici Corporis (1943) and again in Humani Generis (1950), His Holiness Pope Pius XII reiterated the consistent dogma held by the Church from Her very beginning, namely that the Mystical Body of Christ IS one and the same as that visible institution that he himself ruled as Christ’s Vicar.
Pope Pius XII also makes it clear that this Mystical Body of Christ and visible institutional Catholic Church that he rules is ITSELF ALONE the means or conduit of God’s salvation to humankind. No salvation can be obtained from anywhere outside it. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Thus is the eternal teaching of the Church. It is dogma and to teach otherwise would be heresy.
http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/05Sep/sep05str.htm

Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos (1929 demonstrated that there is but one religion revealed by God through Jesus Christ the Son of God and no other religion has the Divine proof of miracles and prophecies. The Son of God founded one Church which He commissioned to teach all nations, all things whatsoever He commanded and which He promised to be with to the consummation of the world (Matt. 28:19).
      Pope Pius XI condemned false ecumenism as it is based on the erroneous belief that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy and he further declared that the promotion of this false ecumenism is tantamount to abandoning the religion revealed by God, in other words, apostasy.

The October 10-14, 2012 Fatima Conference Schedule in Spokane, WA:
LECTURES;
* The Second Vatican Council:  The masterminds behind the Council;
*  “        “        What does it really teach?;
*  “        “        How is it applied?;
*Styles and Fashions which gravely offend God;
*Men Must Amend Their Lives:  Avoiding spiritual dangers in our modern world;
*Men must cease offending God; He is already too much offended;
*Prefigurements of Our lady in the Old Testament;
*Apologia for the Traditional Movement;
*My Journey from Vietnam to the priesthood and to the traditional Faith by Fr. Anton Trinh;
*The Miraculous Events of October 13, 1917.

@Joe:  [“No salvation can be obtained from anywhere outside it.”]  Yes, Joe I also got that message in Catholic grammar school from the nuns.  Unfortunately, there comes a time for when we must graduate from grammar school thinking and become adults.  Since (in your view) Pius XII is infallible, which popes are we to believe when they disagree with Pius XII?  Subsequent popes call Protestants (who btw are are also in the Body of Christ) “our separated brethren.”  Your thinking is very myopic.  I see you as the prideful man in the Temple thanking God you are “Catholic” and NOT like the rest of Christianity.  What makes you think that your love for Christ is any better or more than a Bible-believing conservative Baptist or Evangelical?

I just was at my first “LifeTeen” Mass this evening.  I don’t consider myself a traditionalist, but that was nutty!  Have any of you guys been to one of those?  What am I missing??

Casting Crowns,  You are amazing! Yes, you do get it that the conciliar church is teaching a new doctrine.  Catholics know that popes do not disagree on matters of faith and morals.  Think about that.  Yes, the Vatican II new theology is love, and more love to bring about world peace so they think.  Sin, the consequences of disobedience to God’s law, Christ Crucified for us, and why are souls lost to destruction are embarrassingly absent in the documents.  Christ instituted One Church to safe guard the revelations He personally taught to the first bishops.  Yes, all truth stopped when the last Apostle died.  The Church Christ established must safeguard it.  Changing its meaning maintaining truth evolves is stating no truth exists.  One does not love Christ unless one is obedient to His teachings and His Church.  Those outside His church have free will to return.  What stops them?  Undoubtedly it’s another marriage or another sin against a Commandment. It is only by God’s grace go I.

Andrew, sounds like your ‘Catholic conscience’ is stirring you.  Have you seen the ‘beach mass’ in Germany?  Can you or will you describe what the ‘teen mass’ was like?

@Joe:  Perhaps we are not that much in disagreement and only talking past each other.  For example, I have good friends who are Baptists and others who are Evangelicals.  These people were raised in their Christian churches since childhood and are totally devoted to Christ Jesus.  They do not reject Catholicism—they only know their church for their lifetime.  Frankly, their conduct, speech and devotion to Christ puts most of my Catholic friends to shame in comparison.

@Joe - Ha, I don’t have enough time to describe other than great big band playing unfamiliar “Christian Rock”-type as if they are legitimate parts of the Mass.  It was just strange

Casting Crowns, it is most understandable the confusion that exists today with those claimed Catholic who are proving themselves to not be models of the true faith, but are living the changes secured in Vatican II Council that broke from the past teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
SUMMI PONTIFICATUS
Encyclical of His Holiness Pope Pius XII On the Unity of Human Society October 20, 1939
“…6. Can there be, Venerable Brethren, a greater or more urgent duty than to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ (Ephesians iii. 8) to the men of our time? Can there be anything nobler than to unfurl the “Ensign of the King” before those who have followed and still follow a false standard, and to win back to the victorious banner of the Cross those who have abandoned it? What heart is not inflamed, is not swept forward to help at the sight of so many brothers and sisters who, misled by error, passion, temptation and prejudice, have strayed away from faith in the true God and have lost contact with the joyful and life-giving message of Christ? ..”
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM
“Pastor Aeternus” is another encyclical by Pope Pius XI that speaks of the teaching authority of the Church in the divine wisdom was constituted on earth in order that the revealed doctrines might remain forever intact and might be brought forward with ease and security to the knowledge of men.  No fresh invention is introduced. 

Every organization has its head and the Vicar of Christ, Christ’s personal representative for His Church has been targeted for extinction.  That position is a direct impediment to a one world order religion.  The Catholic Church does not blend in nor adapts to modern society.  Society is to adapt to Christ and His teachings.  Oh, how that concept of submission is considered hateful but in fact is the only true path to happiness on this earth until God wills us back to Him.  Will we be worthy to return Home to the Father?

Andrew, take a look at this:——
In his “reform” of the Mass, Archbishop Annibale Bugnini attempted against the Tridentine Mass as being the “only” legitimate form of Mass in the Latin Rite. He had the chance to knock out both “the Mass,” and “Tradition.” A great victory for those enemies whom St. Pius V wanted to avoid! Behold Bugnini’s words that the Novus Ordo is “a major conquest of the Catholic Church”

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a051ht_IdenityofMass_Arnold.htm

@ Joe…I foolishly took the bait and came to your comment here. I see you are not commenting on topic at either web-site but rather with a whole whole host of topics and with a plethora of other commenters. I do not wish to become involved in this brouhaha except to say:
  (1) I have NOT misunderstood Blessed John Paul II’s book, Crossing
      The Threshold of Faith…but clearly you have not read
      it nor have you understood the purpose of Vatican II and its
      teachings. You seem to be *off* our sainted Pope.

  (2) There is only once true, holy and apostolic Church. There is
      no *new* relgion be it pre or post Vatican II. You are
      preaching heresy if you believe what you say on this post.
God have mercy for they know not what they do!

ThirstforTruth - considering your name is that you do, you should be very interested in this:
Posted by Joe on Saturday, Sep 29, 2012 8:02 PM (EST):  Religious liberty was condemned by Pope Pius VII in Post Tam Diuturnas, by

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/religious-liberty-allows-voice-of-faith-to-function-as-the-conscience-of-so/#ixzz2852YBTer

@ Joe…Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!
Not going there, sorry! You have been shown to be a distorter
of the truth from your comments.

ThirstforTruth, if I have been a distorter of truth, than I give you permission to point it out.  If I have been slipshod in substantiating a truth of the Church, please indicate where and I will attempt to improve upon it.  I am a noisy gong if I spout needlessly. I know that I put myself at risk to be ridiculed but I’m willing to improve, aren’t you?

Joe, From yesterdays Gospel in the Novus Ordo Missae, Pope Benedict XVl quoted from the Doctor of the Church St. Augustine, “Just as one can find that which is not Catholic in the Catholic Church-that is, in the Church-one can also find something that may be Catholic outside of the Catholic Church.”
“This the Pope said, is what Jesus wishes to explain to his disciples, that “Good and even miraculous things” can happen outside their circle when others “cooperate with the Kingdom of God”.

Angelo,  Based on the facts that anything true is not new and all revelations ended with the death of the last Apostle,where else can you find this in the history of Holy Mother the Church or Magisterial Teachings/Pontifical pronouncements?

Joe, The Holy Father quoted from one of the Major Doctors of the Church! You quote past Popes, the past Popes you quote, quoted from the Doctors of the Church, especially from St. Augustine. EXPLAIN!!!

@Joe:  [“Religious liberty was condemned by Pope Pius VII”].  Wouldn’t you agree this is part of the problem?  An Italian Pope —native of Europe who understands nothing about the United States, the American ethos and that in our core being of patriotism, Americans have laid their lives down for liberty.  Liberty is in the fabric of American culture and American exceptionalism.  We are not independent nation states as in Europe who are solely introverted and socialist leaning who view “rights” as only those granted by their governments.  When America yields any liberty to government, we will cease to be America.  Catholics should yield *first* to Christ and not someone named “Pope X, Y or Z.”  This remark by Pius VII proves that conferring the title of “Pope” does not mean all wisdom is therefore imputed.

Angelo, The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the Apostolic succession — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church.  A Catholic must ask where in Tradition is a doctrine taught that binds all to believe; a Catholic must also search for the Councils certified by Popes and what are the Papal promulgations coming from the most infallible Holy Spirit that propose a doctrine.  Also, Catholics pray as they believe.  Catholics pray that they believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (and believe that there is no other) – the Catholic Church holds all truth without exception and not to be found outside of Her.

@Joe:  So it’s your view (and that of the Catholic church) that Christians who have placed their trust and affirmed their belief in Christ Jesus cannot enter Heaven.  Only Catholics are in Heaven?  Is this your position?

Casting Crowns, Yielding to Christ is yielding to His personal representative on earth:
Religious liberty was condemned by Pope Pius VII in Post Tam Diuturnas, by Pope Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos,
by Pope Pius IX in Quanta Cura,
and by Pope Leo XIII in Libertas Praestantissimum.

        Religious liberty also contradicts the royalty of Jesus Christ in society as expressed in Quas Primas of Pope Pius XI, and the constant attitude and practice of the Church with regard to civil society.

The countries that were forced to change from the Teachings of Holy Mother the Church to religious liberty (post vatican 2) soon had increased divorces, increased sexual promiscuities, legalized abortions, increased of birth controlling…......

Sorry, Joe.  We yield to no man.  We yield to Christ.  The pope is not HIS personal representative.  Popes do not come down from Heaven.  Popes come from the earth rather than the celestial.  They are not diety.  Popes are leaders, but not Altar Christi’s.  They are neither omnipresent nor omnipotent and die like all men.  Papal history has demonstrated the imperfections of these men.  Religious liberty has nothing to do in the context of disobedience to biblical principles.  We are talking about governments who would usurp the liberty of men to worship the Lord free of state imposed parameters.

Casting Crowns, Your stance is in opposition to the Fathers of the Church, to St. Peter and his successors.  It is by divine design that the Vicar of Christ be the teacher of all Christians.  The power of the pope teaching infallibly in matters of faith and morals is a sure guidance for all on what to believe in order to obtain correct action.  To live outside of these doctrines expounded by the Pontiffs is the cause of miseries and loss of natural rights.
Casting Crowns, I suggest you get “Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma” with the 1955 Imprimatur.  If you want to go on justifying situational ethics than of course you will not be interested in this book.

@Joe: Sorry.  Salvation has nothing to do with who the Pope is.  Seems it has something to do with a Jewish Rabbi who was executed 2,000 years ago.  Maybe you will have an interest in THAT book.

Casting Crowns, Christ established one church that has the power to absolve sin.  Outside of it there is no salvation.  Ask Mark P. Shea on staff at N C R who’s an authority on solar scriptura to show you the many verses containing this truth.

@Joe:  So it is your position that sin can only be forgiven by a Catholic priest?  Christ no longer forgives sin.  On this basis only Catholics are in Heaven and no one else.

Casting Crowns, If I thought your lone ranger spirit could be converted to a teachable spirit I would spoon feed you why creatures must be obedient to their Creator which is only possible as members of the Church the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity instituted.  Being sorry for one’s sin and receiving absolution by the legitimate priesthood is the only way to save one’s soul.  John 20:23

Casting Crowns, You need to learn the Catholic Faith. Mortal sin can only be absolved in the Confessional before one can receive Communion. Here is truth from scripture, Jesus, after his ressurection, breathed on the Apostles and said Peace be with you! He did this a second time and added, Receive the Holy Ghost, who’s sins you forgive are forgiven them, who’s sins you shall reatin, are retained. As for only Catholics being in heaven, that is a fact. Non-Catholics can receive salvation, and if they do, they in fact die Catholics. You say that the Pope is like an ordinary man, then you must also reject, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Soloman, David, St. John the Baptist ect.. If what you say is true then these men were never chosen by God. They in your reasoning were merely men and the people had no obligation to obey them. These are Catholic Dogmas of the Faith, that every Catholic must believe under pain of Mortal sin. If you in fact reject any Church Dogma, YOU CANNOT RECIEVE HOLY COMMUNION, if you do you commit a second mortal sin, that of sacrilege. In which the penalty is eternal loss of ones soul. This is Church Dogma. Do you reject Church Dogma?

Angelo, spoken according to the pre-conciliar Church and Church that “IS” and changed by the post conciliar church that subsists IN.  No wonder Casting Crowns and many others are confused.

@Joe:  Only Catholics are able to have eternal life.  [“Non-Catholics can receive salvation, and if they do, they in fact die Catholics.”]  How is this achieved for the Non-Catholic?

Casting Crowns, No salvation outside the Catholic Church is not an easy issue.  Only God knows the heart—- and through no fault of their own——and desire.  If you are truly seeking truth in regards to salvation, get a “Baltimore Catechism”, get a copy of “Denzinger, the Sources of Catholic Dogma with imprimatur 1955” and consult a legitimate bishop or priest for assistance.  Find out why once an error has been condemned it can no longer be discussed and find out once a truth is explained it is no longer for discussion for truth is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow which the Angelos of the world deny.  Find out what is the authority of the Priesthood and the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff.

@Joe, At your request I will obtain a copy of the Denzinger book for more reading.  At the same time you state:  [“Find out what is the authority of the Priesthood and the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff.”] —-  That being said, (and since you agree the Bible is inerrant), how does your comment square with Timothy (head of the early church at Corinth) in 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”  OT Jews needed Levitcal priests to offer sacrifices for the people.  Since Jesus offered the perfect and complete sacrifice on Calvary as the Great High Priest,—Timothy is saying we no longer need priests to offer anything as a go-between.  Man now has direct access to the Father.  Is Timothy correct?

Joe and Casting Crowns, There are a few new threads on NCRegister. They are great. Hope to see you both post.

...or not

Casting Crowns, humanity does not have the capacity to put Genesis to Revelation together for its perfect message of salvation.  Only the Church Christ established with Pontiff as Teacher and Theologian as the infallible head is endowed with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to speak without error.  The One Church with Pontiff as the visible head speaks for the invisible Head, Jesus Christ.  All societal organizations have an authority and the One Church of Christ is the perfect societal organization.  This is poorly said and if I had time I would and still might give an improved explanation.  There are 30 thousand plus denominations in the world today because the claimants within protest the position of the Papacy and pull pages out of the bible to do so.  Catholics must ask what is the interpretation of Sacred Scripture according to the Magisterium.  I once thought it was all right to believe in reincarnation because of scripture references.  An example of a contradiction is: Henry the VIII used a Leviticus scripture to be able to put aside his wife to marry another, but in Deuteronomy the marrying of an in law maintained he had a legitimate marriage and could not.  It takes the mind of the Church to settle what appears to be contradictions.

Where Angelo?

@Joe:  So the Lord gives men the ability to reason and think *except* in matters Scriptural. So Paul’s statement in his letter to Timothy at Corinth is incorrect in your judgment.  What else in ACTS and in Paul’s letters should we view as untrue?

Casting Crowns,  I should get paid for being your tutor.  Not men! Popes endowed with the infallible Holy Spirit guiding them to truth.  Men are fallible, that is why we need Holy Mother the Church until Christ be formed in us.  He who does not have Church as Mother will not have God as Father, per St. Cyprian.

@Joe:  Begging your pardon, but just because a past saint said something that sounds “nice” doesn’t make it true.

Joseph, Thank you. Now relay the message that it has to do with Archbishop Muller. The True Nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by Pope Benedict XVl. And tell them to search for other threads here on RC Register. Thanks again.

Has Muller repented for denying the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

Casting Crowns, The Denzinger book - don’t buy the latest - purchase

ISBN: 1-930278-22-5 Loretto Printing

@Joe:  Thanks for the reference.  There’s a Catholic bookstore in town I can check with on Saturday.  I haven’t looked online yet.  btw, is something amiss with the latest edition?

Today, I am distraught.  Maybe this will bring Angelo back, as he and I would be in agreement, I know.

A male family member that was non-Catholic (& I thought, Christian) married a Catholic woman about 12 years ago.  He converted to Catholic, shortly after their marriage.  They are raising their two children (both under 10 years old) to be Catholic.  By the way, I know in his RCIA program, his priest told him it was fine to use contraception- Angelo: breathe!! 

In discussing the Presidential debate with this couple last night, I was shocked when the mom told me they were raising the children to believe:
“God loves everyone”
“We all must enjoy equality in our country”
“That includes being able to marry whomever we want, even two men or two women.”

I found out their eldest child is in a classroom where one little girl has two mothers.  She was placed for adoption, and they are giving the child a “good home.”

This couple is raising their kids to believe it is normal and acceptable. They appear to come from a parish where morals are either never discussed, or homosexual unions are actually embraced.  So it seems like there are 30,000 different Roman Catholic “denominations” out there too, as many as there are non-Catholic denominations.

What saddened me is my references to Scripture being THE REASON why we cannot go the way of Spain, Italy & all other countries that have accepted homosexual unions, were called “judgmental”.

The father told me I did not sound “Christ-like” to deny these people happiness.  He told me to “find a homosexual person you can show a kindness to during the week” and “Don’t fixate on this issue, look for Social Justice issues to work on.”

He did not accept the Bible as Holy Spirit inspired & said “Times have changed since it was written.”  Each and every time I tried to use Scripture as a reason to at least SPEAK UP against same sex marriage, he batted it down, pooh-poohing me.

When I converted to Roman Catholic, I did not sign away my right to: think, speak, READ the Bible, and LIVE in a manner that I know pleases God.  My memory is intact & I cannot help that I am Bible-literate.

I tried to make a point that we are losing FREE SPEECH in our country, if people stay quiet about what they find objectionable & it’s even worse when supposedly Catholic people embrace what God calls “sin”.

But I got nowhere with this man.  His born-Catholic wife is even worse - and she is around friends that think like her.  So I did not even broach the subject with her.  I also did not say a word about anything, in front of the two children, feeling the topic inappropriate.  But the couple were open about homosexual behavior being GOOD and normal.

Later, I tried to share the Gospel with the father, saying Jesus did not die so we can disobey Him or disregard a holy and eternal Triune Godhead.
I described what happened at Calvary to him: the sky going dark at 12 noon, the earthquake happening that ripped the veil from top to bottom in the Temple, the dead people rising from their graves, and the Roman Centurian saying, “Surely this WAS the Son of God!”

But his couldn’t-care-less attitude was like I was just telling him another Bible story from when he was in 3rd grade, one with which he was already way too familiar.  To what I was saying, he added, “I know - and the stone was rolled from the tomb…”