Having taughts in Catholic schools for a number of years, this brings up a point that I have repeatedly witnessed.  There are a lot of teachers, aides, administrators and clergy who do not believe in what the Church teaches.  Those who attempt to teach the Faith, correct errors by those who slander or wink at the Truth and stand-up to intimidation are often swept away and replaced by those who will submit or also believe the Church is wrong in its teachings.

What can be done?  First, hire only Catholic teachers, aides and administrators for every school and university.  It strains credulity to believe that that there aren’t enough Catholics to fill these positions. (Having non-politician, Catholics on school boards might preempt future problems, a la Verbum Dei High School in LA, from occuring.)

Second, a mandatum for each and every person associated with education to sign.  Even those who do not teach a religious subject should be role models for the Faith.  A mandatum should also help bring to a halt non-Catholic and secular reasoning and rationale.

Third, throw out the wishy-washy religious curriculum that is present in so many schools.  The basics of Catholicism are still needed in high school, as well as college, where social justice reigns supreme and students remain Catholic-illiterate. 

Fourth, impose a religion graduation test requirement for middle school, high school and college.  Having tried to put such a requirement in place for middle school, one would have thought disaster, gloom and despair had befallen at the suggestion, though I had led my classes through the Quinque Viae and was confident of their success.  We require testing in other subjects, but we don’t in religion?  We don’t want to know how bad our Catholic Identity is, is the real answer.

March 7th: If only…we have Catholic Colleges and Universities who not only do not present the teachings of the Catholic Church but openly and arrogantly present teachings against the Catholic Church.  This is why those youngsters who attend these schools,even if they were faithful before, seem to lose their faith at these places.  Our Bishops need to stand together, to show a united front in dealing with these issues.  Cardinal Dolan has stated that he would never refuse someone the Eucharist because to do so would be to ‘politicize’ the Eucharist but it seems that not to do so is to ‘politicize’ the Eucharist, to attempt political correctness.  Andrew Cuomo is living with his girl friend, promotes gay marriage and recently and very publicly cried out to a crowd listening to him promote unlimited, unrestricted abortion, any time, any place for any reason and even that non-medical people be allowed to perform abortions…this is not only madness, it is diabolical ... and yet he is allowed to receive Holy Communion. Nancy Pelosi said clear and publicly that the Bishops are not in agreement about abortion and so she can continue to receive the Eucharist…this not only affirms them in their sin and gives scandal, but it denies them the catalyst for conversion…we must pray before it gets worse.

I think most parents, including Catholic parents, send their kids to Catholic school because the schools are generally better than the public schools (from a straightforward education and discipline standpoint), yet cheaper than most secular private schools.

Frankly, I’d be very surprised if a majority of the parents of the diocese of Santa Rosa’s Catholic school students wholly agree with the statement “that contraception, abortion, homosexual marriage and euthanasia are ‘matters that gravely offend human dignity.’ “

It’s perfectly within the church’s right, of course, to turn their schools into a bunch of Opus Dei academies. But it shouldn’t be surprised when those schools, a couple of years later, end up closing due to low enrollment. And Bishop Vasa shouldn;t be surprised if that’s what happens in Santa Rosa.

A Catholic school ought to first be about proclaiming the Gospel.  I had a leader at a local Catholic HS who, when I asked him -why the local news paper praised a former classmate of mine (who was listed in a special handout as one of the most powerful women in Massachusetts) on her work in “reproductive” health care, he answered “We’re proud of all our students.” I have had other similar experiences. I would like to see the local school sign, it’s teachers and administrators too, an oath of fidelity to all the teachings of the church including all teachings against modern errors, but I don’t see it, and therefore I take my chances sending my children to a secular school that in many ways directly challenges the Faith. It pains me to say this but I would rather take my chances there and teach my own children and pray. A watered down faith is no faith at all. The schools motto is to “set your heart on things above”, but it’s really about $.

@Jon - Having had some experience in this area, people are attracted to people and institutions that have integrity and that live their lives in a manner that is consistent with what they claim to believe. I have seen a number of Catholic parochial schools and Universities who after pursuing integrity in their Catholicity see an increase in enrollment. On the other hand, if the schools close down because they are rejected by those that only practice a surface Christianity and lack integrity themselves, that is fine too - Jesus admonished that it is foolish to “cast pearls before swine.” Bishop Vasa is expecting integrity. We should expect no less from all Catholic institutions.

“But it shouldn’t be surprised when those schools, a couple of years later, end up closing due to low enrollment. And Bishop Vasa shouldn’t be surprised if that’s what happens in Santa Rosa.” — Jon

“God does not require that we be successful—only that we be faithful.” — Bl. Teresa of Calcutta

If those schools close due to low enrollment, LET THEM CLOSE. They were doing much more damage when they were open anyway.

@Fed Up - Well said.

@Fed Up-That happened at one school I taught at, too.  The principal drove people away by belittling our Faith.  Imagine not having Stations of the Cross in the Church or not saying the Angelus at lunchtime or not allowing religious retreats, etc, etc… Parents, with their children, left and the school closed.  And the principal went on to another place….

Besides the many good points made by the other commentators another factor is money. The cost of Catholic school education has sky rocketed. It has significantly jumped in many areas in the last five years. The parents who can afford it are the parents who send their children to Catholic schools. Many of these parents are not Catholics. The percentage of nonCatholics attending Catholics schools is steadily rising. Some would say an opportunity for evangelization. Yes, it could be. However,in many cases they bring a very secular mindset with them and influence the overall culture of the Catholic school with secular values.

@Colleen,
I agree but the schools themselves have also bought into that “market”; becoming more a prep school. A watered down faith hasn’t helped, it’s accelerated that process. Middle class families that are open to life are out matched. The schools have become synonymous with wealthly families and small families. I’m sorry. It’s true.

Maybe this would correct a problem at the school where we belonged as parishioners (and did not send our children to the school)
Deacon takes confirmation class to church Chapel to explain the Real Presence.
The 8th grade teacher says the Deacon is wrong - it is a symbol.
The kids tell the Deacon this.  He tells the kids that the teacher is wrong.

Kids tell teacher.
Pastor calls Deacon and teacher into his office…...

And demands the Deacon apologize to the teacher for saying that the teacher was wrong.

Deacon did not… and eventually he was let go.

And the teacher remains…

And the school wonders why they have fewer and fewer kids.
Prayers and cheers for the Bishop!

Well, it’s a good thing thing God doesn’t require success because if there’s anything the modern western church is good at, it’s failure. Not even most Catholics want their kids turned into Super Catholics, and as someone else pointed out, most of those schools are being propped up by non-Catholics to begin with. It’s possible, as Dan suggests, that one or two such schools in a given area might see an enrollment bump—serving as a kind of magnet school for Super Catholics. The rest will close. I guess that’s OK with everyone? It’s perfectly fine with me.

It is amazing how far the American Church has gone in allowing error in Catholic teaching to permeate everywhere; in Schools, Catechism programs, and homilies.  How many of those “teachers” have not read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the documents of Vatican II?  Errors on basic things like when the consecration of the Mass takes place. Or errors about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  One idea that I find amazing is also what I believe to be an error in Word on Fire concerning Hell.  I was taught in the Catechism, “My Catholic Faith” that God rewards the good and and punishes the wicked.  Yet I hear so many times from priests and teachers, “We don’t know if anyone is in hell.”  I believe that we do not know who is in hell, but that is different from no one is in hell.  Our kids do not know the Trinity.  When you do teach according to the councils of the church you are labeled a conservative.  The American Church is a mess and its no wonder many people have stopped going to Mass.

Having had my children in several Catholic High Schools and two parish schools, and having served on the school council of a parish school, I can echo many of the concerns presented in these comments regarding reliance on non-Catholic students and hiring of teachers, Catholic and non-Catholic, with secular ideas and training. There often is a limited desire to truly participate in the faith formation of the students because there is so little demand for help in this area from the parents.  I applaud the Bishop’s efforts and support a closing of schools if demand drops because I too see the current status of most Catholic schools as perpetuating mediocre Catholic identity at best.  Pastors need to encourage and educate their congregations as to the benefits of true Catholic Education.  Only when parents and parishioners who financially support their local parish and diocesan school demand excellence in Catholic faith formation and education will these schools make significant changes. We need new models to reach out to parents and catechise them, especially during sacrament preparation years.

Kudos to the Bishops whom hold strong to standards. This time of evangelization brings to me a sigh of relief. I care little about the unkind criticism of Catholicism. The church has sustained worse, for a reason. Good and evil are not equal forces. During times when we are censored under the guise of political correctness and tolerance, it I pray the the Catholic Schools stay true to the Doctrine in a vibrant fashion..

Catholic children are the future of the Church. I believe that every parent who desires to send their children to a Catholic school should be able to do so.  Tuition is usually so high that few parents have the money to send their kids to Catholic schools. Catholic children should be an educational priority.
Far too often, Catholic schools struggle financially because so few contribute. The bishop should ensure that Catholic schools are a priority and fund them. The only way that can happen is if all the churches in the diocese contribute regardless of whether or not there is a school in their particular parish.

This is such an important article. We need to build our house on rock, not on sand, and if that means fewer numbers at first so be it. We need to also pray for more vocations and get the nuns in full habits back in the classrooms.  As usual, thank you NC Register, and to Mr. Burke for a great piece.

It’s much more important that our children not only understand and accept Church teachings, but they are able to DEFEND the Church during these times of secularization and assault by government forces.
As Ray pointed out, above, there is a noticeable lack of knowledge of the Faith among many - unfortunately this includes principals and some priests, as well.  If the Catholic schools where these people were educated didn’t have some form of a mandatum (for all), then it shouldn’t be surprising that there are so many who know so little.
In a different vein, each and every bishop needs to realize just how important Catholic schools and CCD programs are and devote more time and money to insure their continued existance - and this includes the USCCB from giving money away to this and that cause. When these schools were first started in this country, they were free to all - this should be the goal once again.
In return, Catholic middle schools, high schools and colleges should require their students to pass an exit exam in religion for graduation. This might be at least an indication of their Catholic Identity.
If the laity doesn’t understand the Church, there soon will not be one.

It is sad that the bishops and the RCC emphasize only the RCC’s oppostion to three issues: same-sex amarriage, abortion, contraception.  The RCC is global institution and there are other issues for which the RCC should be much much more vocal about. 

Instead of just pounding away at the same old issues, why are the bishops and the RCC not standing up for the elimination of poverty, hunger, war?  Why are the bishops and the RCC not standing up for the elimiation of polio, malaria, etc (which kill millions around the world annually), or standing up for access to healthcare for all people around the world? Those are the important issues, those are the issues that affect millions upon millions of people around the world.

The bishops need to get in touch with the realities: 82% of RCs support the use of contraception and use it (notice the small size of RC families?), more than half of RCs support same-sex marriage—which will be legalized by the US Supreme Court by June 2013 (and which will have NO affect on straight marriage or on society).

And is someone going to be monitoring/following teachers to make sure they are going to Mass on Sunday, making sure they have sex only with their spouses, making sure they are having sex only in RCC-supported positions, making certain they are not filling prescriptions for contraceptioves?  What if young married teachers (male or female) don’t have children, or done’t have “enough” children?  Will they be fired for not living up to RC teachings?  Who is going to ascertain that teachers are following all the 10 Commandments???

If the RCC and the bishops have to reseort to having teachers sign some sort of loyalty oath, its really an admission that the RCC and the bishops have already lost the the battle and have lost the war.

Ms. Kaiser, you must either be joking or living under an extremely large rock.  Who now or in the history of the world for that matter has done more to reduce poverty and hunger in the world than the Catholic Church? It is actually possible to be against poverty and follow Christ’s law - they are not mutually exclusive.

Your tired old arguement that a majority of Catholics sin and do not follow Christ’s teachings is hardly an arguement for promoting future sin.  I assume from your comments that you would have been for Slavery in 1860 simply because a majority of the people were?

Lastly, you preposterous suggestion that someone from the Diocese is monitoring people’s private lives suggests you have not actually read any of the letters the teachers were asked to sign or you are just blindly complaining that Christ’s Church does not conform to your personal beliefs and agenda.  Is it too much to ask that a parent paying to send their kids to a Catholic school might actually expect the school to be, dare I say, Catholic????

A few years ago, a new priest arrived at the parish where our Catholic school is situated. The previous priest was a lovely man but did not want to offend the non-Catholics in the school.  The new priest made it plain that he expected the school’s Catholic identity would improve.  The board and the faculty took that to heart, and we have had a 19% increase in enrollment over the past two years.  In January four students who had moved in to the area and enrolled at the school made their First Communion - these students were in middle school.  Several families have returned to the Faith, attending Mass regularly and taking part in the Sacraments.  Being true to the real Catholic faith has not hurt our school, rather it has helped us.  I will be interested to see the enrollment trend over the next five years. 
And I have to wonder why we are so afraid to BE Catholic.  JPII said Be Not Afraid!  We should not be ashamed or afraid of being Catholic, but perhaps some of us are not as well founded in our faith as we should be, which creates the fear.  Pick up your Catechism and read it once in a while - I’m not very good at doing that but will try to read it more regularly through the rest of Lent.  Not too late to make a Lenten resolution, is it?

Lisa
the Catholic Church contributes more than anyone to the issues that you cite . They have done so for hundreds of years. I suspect you’re referring to champion government to provide the services. Such programs, govt run, are typical in a socialist country not in a   republic such as the US.  Lastly, through skillful interviews with potential teachers, and well run orientation programs for teachers newly hired , the Catholic Church will likely have success in recruiting and hiring new teachers which are faithful Catholics.  No one is suggesting, nor would it be appropriate to monitor the day to day activities of each teacher to ensure that they follow the faith ..  It is simply not adult behavior to do so. Your inferences are unfounded.

Scott,

I understand the RCC does much re eliminationg poverty, etc.  however, it is clear that the RCc and its bishops talk about only 3 three thing, tot he exclusion of almost everything else.  in addition teh RC bishops hree in the US spend millions of dlooars every yr to lobby state and federal lawmakers re those issues.  its a matter of emphasis.

As for support for contraception among American Catholics—it is clear that Catholics do not beleive that contraception is a sin. And of course it is not sin. The idea that is a sin is the product of a hierarchy that has immature and unhealthy attitudes toward sex, sexuality and women. And Paul VI did not speak ex cathedra on this issue. This disconnect between an out of touch hierarchy and RCs is one of many reasons that the largest “denomination” in the US is FORMER RCs.

As for the other conditions that Bishop Vasa want teachers to agree, my point, via use of some hyperbole, is why make rules that cannot be enforced? 

And what passes for “Catholic” these days is the expectation by the bishops that RCs just abdicate their minds and intelligence to whatever the hierarchy says.  The bishops just want sheep who follow blindly and never questions anything. That attitude is clear form their total surprise about 10 yrs ago when people actually began to object to the sexual abuse of children by priests and reported such acts to the civil aurthorities.  The bishops were happy to just cover that stuff up.  They were rudely shocked when RCs stopped deferring to their crimianl coverup of pedophile priests. The bishops want to live in the Middle Ages.
The kind of thing that bishop Vasta is doing in diocesan schools is archaic and not about being “Catholic”.  It has nothing to do with God.  Its about bishops who are only in interested in power, privilege and profit. 

Jen,

first of all, providing for the safety and welfare of the American people is the formeost obligation of our government—please read the founding documents of our nation.  And providing for the safety and welfare of people is NOT socilaism.  It is the the moral oblidgation of us all toward our fellow citizens—no matter if we are atheists, RCs, Jews, muslims, Buddhists, agnostics/  It is our obligations as Americans.  We ARE the government.  The idea that caring for vunerable people is “socialism” and that it is bad—is the propaganda of the extreme right-wing of the GOP and others.  Governments and faith-based organizations should both be concerned about the taking care of the vulnerable among us.

And taking care of the poor, the hungry,etc is NOT what the bishops do.  They talk about and spend millions to lobby US lawmakers only on the subjects of opposing abortion, same-sex marriage and contraception.

the idea that Vasta wants teachers to sign a loyalty oath on those subjects alone speaks volumes about how the priorities of the RC bishops have absolutely nothing to do with the the poor, the hungry, the sick, etc.

The
That is simply just not accurate. The 3 top issues are in the forefront because they are being dealt with by our government today in a heated debate. Quite frankly this is not the role of government in a country as ours, despite Supreme Court ruling. Regardless of what some Catholics or people who call themselves Catholics might feel on these ,, it is and always has been a sin to dismiss the Doctrine of the Church and the Word of .  Catholicism is not a designer religion. The notion that I government can provide better human and charitable services is simply ridiculous, which is why many states are seeking to nullify the laws asserting their Constitutional right. Interesting perspective you have, yet fraught with false assumptions.

Jen,

Yes, the idea that the foremost obligation of our governemtn (of us as Americans) is the safety and welfare of Americans.  Please read the constitution.  The top issues facing our nation are the economy, the economy, the economy.  The top 3 issues facing our nations are NOT abortion, birth contral and same-sex marriage.  Those topics are in the forefront of an RC hierarchy that has unhealthy and immature attitudes towars sex, sexuality and women.

Sorry you are anti-government and anti-American.  You apparently are buying into rigt-wing propaganda and false ideas.  Your statement about states looking to nullify “their constitutional right” is unclear.  What are you talking about???? 

Yes, RC bishops say it is a “sin” to “dismiss” the “doctrine ” of the church. And gullible RCs believe that. That the bishops psuch sucha message just proves that the bishops are only interested in power, privilege and profit.  they are interested only in the institutional church.  They are not interested in God.

If people want their childre to get a good education, the palce to go is private schools, but certainly not RC schools of 2013.  The bishops are not interested in education, they are interested in creating a generation fo gullible sheeep who abdicate their God-given minds and intelligence to a corrupt hierarchy.

Thankfully the USA is not an RC theocracy.

Lisa,
I have read not only the founding documents, but the federalist, anti-federalist, and original journals of the founder and the framers. The obligations you refer to are what I call charity, and in no document was to be defined as the role of govt. In fact, for fear of govt overextending its authority is why it took two years before all nine colonies signed the Constitution. I might challenge you to read reliable history.
As Catholic woman, your position on the Catholic view of sex and sexuality is offensive to me. It is not negative in my opinion to cherish fidelity, virginity, motherhood, family, and life.  The social engineering of the UN population fund and the eugenics movement now called reproductive rights has been outrageous.

It is only by looking seriously at our beliefs that we can fully accept them.  An unquestioned belief is not a true belief at all. Even young children should be taught to examine what they are being told. A questioning attitude does not exclude helping our children to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit within their own minds and hearts to help them discern TRUTH.  God is for real but he will not be found if we do not open our hearts and minds to TRUTH.  Telling our children what they MUST believe is self defeating. Telling them what we truly believe but allowing them to question it produces mature, honest and loving adults who can change the world.

Jen,

From the Preamble of the US Constitution:  We the People of the United States in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare….”  Also Article I, section 8 goves Congress the power to provide for the ‘general welfare of the United States”.  The US Constitution was indeed ratified by all nine colonies—that is what matters.  Our Constitution is the law of the land—not the teachings of the corrupt RC hierarchy.  I am sorry you think it is RC teachings that governments, that we as citizens have no role in taking care of the vulnerable among us.  Your idea is clearly wrong, false, and inhumane in the extreme.  Bravo for Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, TANF, WIC, etc. 

There is NO “social engineering” by the UN or any “eugenics” movement.  You are swallowing the kool-aid of the right-wing and the paranoid.  Bravo to all stand for the freedom of women to control their bodies and to make reproductive choices.

Thankfully, the teachings of the RCC will never be imposed upon Americans or become law in the USA. 

Bravo, Patricia Ryan!

Lisa,
Aside from the fact that you have completely misinterpreted my comments, you have crossed the line when you called me un,-American. I enjoy a good debate, but this his no longer debate. Don’t quote the Constitution to me without referring to the limited an enumerated powers, as well as the Federalist Papers which denotes the proper interpretation. Also I did say that it took two years before ALL colonies signed. Read the Virginia-Kentucky resolution and Patrick Henry’s letters.  Have a good night. I have standards regarding discussion with human beings. You gave crossed the line.

Jen,

The US Constituion is not interpreted via the Federalist papers.  The US Suprme Court interprests the meaning of the Constitution.  Sorry you do notundertnd that.

And yes, I agreed with you re the length of time it took to ratify the Constitution.  But what is important is NOT the time it took, but that all the clonies did ratify the Constitution, making it the supreme law of the USA. 

And if you believe the role of government is not as set out in the Premable and in Article I, and if you believe we have no obligation to care for our fellow citizens, then yes, you are anti-American, and not a very good person.  If that offends you, so be it.  But too bad you cannot own up to the consquences of your misguided beliefs.

Ms. Kaiser.  You are more than welcome to spew your hate towards Catholics here but I would recommend that you at least consider the opposing view before the onslaught.  It is clear you do not have any fundamental understanding of Catholicism but part of our disagreement is that we believe our Church was founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit in truth.  It is quite handy to have a guideline of what God might expect from us!  Not a burden. 

Alternatively, you have the Church of Lisa Kaiser where anything you feel like believing is true for you including the slaughter of unborn children.  Got it.  You are welcome to that attitude and those beliefs.  Of course, instead of arguing a point rationally you stoop to the bigoted comments about select behavior of Catholics that may have failed to be perfect.  Just as background, we believe we are all imperfect and a Church made of sinners.  We make a distinction between the Holy Church that guides us in truth and the many individuals that are within the Church that are flawed human beings.  We will cede that point but it doesn’t change the points you conveniently ignored in the last posting - morality determined by the majority is no morality at all.  Contraception, abortion, rape, slavery…...they are all moral if Lisa Kaiser says they are.  Good luck with that Lisa.

It’s obvious that, not only has this discussion strayed from the topic, but some people must have mistaken this for the other publication with the same initials.
Further, we are Catholic Americans, not the other way around, which is why so many pseudo-Catholics should probably look to the Protestant churches (there are so many variants to choose from) to join.
There are so many whose Catholic education was severely neglected and, for some reason, think that everything can or should be voted on. Two thousand years of history and Apostolic Succession proves this to be a falacy.

Scott,

I have a very clear understanding of RCism.  It is to the advantage of a corrupt hieirachy for RCs to believe that the RCC guides them in “truth”.  The RCC sets out its beliefs—but whether they are true or not is anyone’s guess. That is why RCism is called a ‘faith”.  Which is very very different from “truth”.

And your hyperbole and clearly false statements about what I believe are just bizarre.

Lisa
You are absolutely wrong. The federalist was written expressly for that reason. See, Michael Stokes Paulsen and Akhil Amar as well as an article un the Yale law review in how not to interpret the Constitution.

Jen,

You should immediately call the nine justices of the Supreme Court to tell them that their job is not intepret the US Consitituion, that they go home since all we have to do is read the federalist papers (which by the way are not law).  I m sure they will relieved for you to enlighten them.

Lisa, you are your own God that determines what to believe and who to hate.  Not much I can do with that but I pray for your ability to find some truth and ultimately some peace.  Signing off…....

Lisa
It would serve you well to read the history of the Annapolis Convention, the Federalist, and Marbury vs McCullough-the first case where the SCOTUS , under Sandal Chase first ruled according to their own Doctrine under the guise odd adjudication. It Good night Lisa

Samuel Chase..have a good night

Bob,

The RCC is free to set out its beliefs. However it is free to have 117 people elect its monarch (but not allow anyone else to vote on anything else re RCism).  But the RCC is more than its pope, cardinals, etc.  Lay people are also the RCC. And lay people in the 21st century and certainly in the west, are no longer uneducated peasants in the pews.  When the vast majority of RCs reject a teaching, such as birth control, perhaps the hierarchy should listen.  They do not have direct line to God.  And perhaps the rejection of the prohibition against artifical birth control by the laity is God’s message to the hierarchy that Paul VI got it wrong.

To be fully human is to NOT abdicate one’s God-given mind and intelligence to any institution, particularly an institution that says it speaks for God. 

So to get back on topic, when bishops like Vasta demand people sign an oath of belief, he is asking for an abdication of the mind.  Such an action by the bishops will guarantee that the best and brightest teachers will NOT be found in RC schools.  and that is too bad for kids who will RC schools unprepared to to live a world of diverse believes.  And in world who needs people who can think analytically/crticially in order to solve problems and make our world a better palce for us all.  Sheep cannot do that.

Jen,

sorry but the federalist papers are not law.  and they do not govern the intepretation of the constitution.  You seem to be ignoring thereality of that.  Sorry you do not undertsand the role of the US Supreme Court.

Scott,

I am a human being, with God-given intelligence. So no, I do not abidcate my mind to the RCC.  I am not a sheep. Instead I value and honor the gift that God has bestowed upon human beings.

I never said they were law, but until you read them you cannot comprehend what i am trying to explain to you. i forgive you for you’re very offensive comments. please do not reply

Jen,

I have read the Federalist Papers.  But again, they do not govern the interpretation of the US Constitution.  I think what you are trying to say is what Justice Scalia say—the US Constittuion is a dead document, that interpretation of the Constitution is bound to the meanings of the 18th century. 

Fortunately, the Scalia is wrong and the Court does not buy into his idea.

Lisa,
I do not believe you are a practicing Catholic. If you are, we have really failed you.

The Catholic Church has 1.2 billion members. According to you, we are all mindless sheep, brainwashed by our bishops and the hierarchy of the Church. Nothing could be further from the truth. As previously mentioned in this blog, there certainly is liberty of thought within the Church.  However, there is perfect agreement on essentials and division on accidentals or, as the saying goes, “we can agree to disagree.”

As I Catholic, I have spent the past 25 years studying the teachings of Christ as promulgated by His Church. There is absolutely no contradiction between what the Church teaches today and what Jesus and His Apostles taught so very long ago.

Your basic ignorance of Catholicism is appalling, as is your bigotry. The Catholic Church’s teaching on love and sex is extraordinarily beautiful. I recommend you read Pope John Paul II’ Theology of the Body.

I can only say, “Father forgive her, she does not know what she is doing.”

I obtained my bachelor’s degree at a Catholic University and I’m very happy with my education. That said, teaching children to hate homosexuals, contraception, etc., and to not question Catholic teaching in deciding what to do in their own lives will produce a new generation of ignorant bigots who cannot cope with the 21st century.
.
Marriage equality and free access to contraception and abortion when necessary is coming, and the majority of Catholics are either supportive or indifferent. The new Pope had better be open to some changes or more Catholics will leave the Church.

Wendy,
I say let them go. Anyone who is not in submission to the teachings of Christ has already divorced themselves from the Church and their salvation is at serious risk. The Catholic Church preaches love not hate. Perhaps you have heard the expression, “Hate the sin, love the sinner”?
All real Catholics are open to life in every respect.

There is a a school near us that requires teachers to sign this. It is not a diocesan run school, it’s independent, and there is only 1 class per grade K-12. This year there were 70 kids on the wait list for Kindergarten and there are kids who have been on wait lists for years in K-8. They’ve earned a reputation for having teachers and faculty that are actually Catholic. I think we’d be surprised at the reaction from parents. I never expected this small local school by my house!

Dear Wendy: Thank you for helping us understand what we are up against. The secular media has done a fine job misleading people into believing Catholics hate homosexuals, while dismissing very harsh truths of contraception including it’s link to breast cancer and infertility. This just underscores the need to prune the tree of Catholic education.

Jenny,
I agree. More important than the link between artificial contraception and cancer and infertility is the abortifacient nature of the pill.

The “abortifacient action” in hormonal contraceptives is documented by pharmaceutical manufacturers themselves in package inserts. These devices are believed to be responsible for an estimated minimum of five times more abortions than surgical procedures. Since the advent of “Roe v. Wade” in 1973, the current estimated total number of abortions from hormonal contraceptives and surgical procedures combined is over 300,000,000 … one for every American man, woman and child now alive. (Kumar et al.; “Infant Homicides through Contraceptives”; International Pharmacists for Life; 5th edition, 2003.)

A woman using OCs has a between .05 and 25.6% chance of chemically aborting at least one child per year. Although this might seem to be a small percentage risk, over time the likelihood is great. Moreover, there really is no such thing as a ‘negligible’ risk of aborting a baby. In this case, any risk is too great. It has been estimated that the use of OCs cause between 600,000 to 3 million chemical abortions per annum in the USA.

Many women who would never consider a surgical abortion now use low-dose birth control pills. In his book, The Facts of Life: An Authoritative Guide to Life and Family Issues, Dr. Brian Clowes explains how a large number of women who identify themselves as pro-life use these pills:

“This means that ‘pro-life’ women who are using an oral contraceptive, or some other means of abortifacient birth control, are committing abortions themselves on a frequent basis. These abortions are “silent” and unseen, but they are no less abortions in the eyes of God than are gruesome third-trimester D&X (partial birth) abortions. There are many ‘pro-lifers’ who are using these pills and who are involved in their promotion and distribution. These people must consider whether they can, in good conscience, criticize women whose action differs from their own only in that they have to drive to a ‘clinic’ (mill) to commit it.”

From: “Birth Control and Abortifacients.”

I am blessed to live in the Lincoln Diocese where the faculty at the Catholic school I send my children to is completely Catholic.  The tuition is very low compared to the rest of the country, and Mass is daily.
However, besides the religion books, the rest of the curriculum is the same as the public schools!  Catholic schools need Catholic books!

Katharine,
I agree. The public schools not only have lower standards, many other subjects are rooted in secular philosophies. I don’t know if you are familiar with the Common Core federal initiative. It it is frightening. Aside from the fact that education should be left to the states and communities, this new program was formulated by former radical and convicted felon Bill Ayers. I am very grateful to the Bishops and schools which proudly remain committed to the Catholic way of life. We must take a stand regarding right and wrong. Tolerance applies to individuals, not policy.

Victor C.
Thank you for the statistics and references you have cited.  Such information is not widely known. I will share these stats, thank you. I recently learned that the woman known as “Jane Roe”, never had an abortion.  In her own words, she was “used as a pawn for a political agenda” of which she disagreed. She went on to say that the UN Population Fund, in order to promote population control and eugenics, crafted the campaign language of women’s reproductive rights. Of you have not seen it already, you may be interested in the two part documentary, ” Demographic Winter”, and “The & Demographic Bomb”.. This had aired on EWTN, yet may be found on the internet.  This is something every family and teenager should see. guys with the statistics you have cited earlier, I found this program staggering. I think the Catholic television Network for airing the show

Victor,
Typos at the end of my reply…..auto correct can be problematic. How tot caught the drift.

Well, I tried to past a link here, but it was rejected. I’ll see if I can paste some of the text and you can look it up. This is an example of a Catholic school teacher being attacked for teaching her faith:
.
Brooke Mulligan, 18, has alleged a religion teacher at St. Thomas of Villanova mistreated her because of her sexual orientation.
.
She said the teacher’s bullying included “talking about homosexuals” in class, grading her differently, giving her disgusted looks and telling the class that homosexuals can’t get married.
.
Mulligan said it wasn’t until she came out that the teacher started picking on her. She said she filed a complaint to the school board.
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Friday’s protesters — some were education students placed in Catholic schools as they train to be teachers — stood along Huron Church Road outside the board office. They waved signs with messages that included “Love Not Bigotry” and “Gay Rights are Human Rights.”

Bravo to Bishop Vasa, who is also increasing the Catholicity of his curriculum.  “Catholicism must permeate…the entire curriculum” says Archboshop J. Michael Miller.  Does your school have CatholicTextbookProject books in their history and social studies classrooms?  If not - help them discover this new textbook that will help schools get Catholic Identity back into the classroom. Share with them the Official Catholic Directory article on our website and ask your school to join the over 4,000 students using these books in the LA Archdiocese this year, along with tens of thousands of other school children in homeschools and parochial schools nationwide.

As a long-time teacher in Catholic high schools, I appreciate Bishop Vasa’s new requirement for teachers. Every diocese should require it. HOWEVER, it is by no means a guarantee of Catholic identity.  Until Catholic schools drop state and secular accreditation, Catholic schools’ first order of business will always be to comply with state curriculum, hiring, and testing standards, not by the Church’s vision.  Among the many factors that determine Catholicity, the greatest is what teachers teach in the classroom. In most Catholic schools, all but Religion is governed by state curriculum standards because these schools are afraid to cut themselves loose of secular seals of approval and state purse strings.  Until Catholic schools get back to their classical roots,and return to true self-governance, measures like Bishop Vasa’s will have only a modest impact on Catholic identity.  A lot of teachers in Catholic schools would echo my sentiments, but in the public debate over education—and in particular, Catholic education—teachers voices are about the last to be heard.

@J.Adams. Having taught in various K-12 grades, you are entirely correct and it has become so much a part of the Catholic system that it would scare everyone if everyone had to revert back to what made Catholic education great. I’ve seen many administrators look at you like you’ve lost your mind when this suggestion is made because they know no other way. Though “Catholic Identity” is usually the first item most schools list in their public relations programs, it’s things like Common Core and national testing that comes to the fore.
Not all parents buy this, either.  One such school was closed recently because of the lack of “Catholic Identity” though it had gone through the “accreditation” program, which, frankly, leaves a lot to be desired.

It’s a shame that secular schools don’t teach students to hate homosexuals, atheists, and secular law.

It its wonderful that the Catholic school system teaches love and tolerance , while distinguishing between right and wrong. It is a shame that anyone who disagrees with the gay, atheist,, and secular lobbyist is accused of hate, and bigotry. One more resin while the Catholic schools must hold fast to their principles, despite he numerous assaults from the liberal left.  Wouldn’t it be nice if they too learned and practiced tolerance, as well as right from wrong.

Jen.

the primary message from the RCC these days IS hate.  Hate toward gay people, toward women, toward the equality of all Americans under the law.

The RCC is free of course to teach whatever it sees fit to teach.  But the message is one of hate and so the RCC should not be surprised when it is called out for its hatred and bigotry, for its anti-American teachings. The RCC is a flawed human institution.  It is not above criticism.  It is one faith tradition among many in the wrold.  It does not speak for God.

Lisa,
I have to question why you spend so much time with negative comments and display plain bigotry and prejudice. I simply can no longer dialogue with you, as you have twisted my in prior posts, and have not sustained civilized discussion.  God have mercy on you. I have to wonder why you are on this thread and how you spend your time. God Bless. Good bye.

Lisa,
Could you be a bit more specific in your accusations? Please provide a Church document(s) which proves your point. In other words, put up or shut up.

Victor,

It is the actions of the bishops that prove my point.  Specifically, just go the web siet of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, just look at time, money and efforts the US bishops have spent lobbying US lawmakers (federal and state) to oppose same-sex marriage (Prop 8 in California is a good example), review BXVI’s statements on same-sex marriage.  Look at the statments from the bishop in your dioces on the topics of same-sex amrriage, the oppostion tot he HHS mandate re birth control, etc.

Are you saying the US bishops and the Vatican have not stood in opposition to gay people, to same-sex marraige, to the rights of women to control their reproductive choices?

Jen,

The RCC and RCs in the US should not expect Americans to just accept the RCC’s clearly hateful and anti-American messages.  You think everyone in America should just blindly go along with what the hateful, irrational, illogical things RCC says about gay people, women, and reproductive choices (particurarly artificial birth control)?

This is the USA and it is not an RC theocracy.  Americans have the right to oppose what is not in the best interests of the nation.  And the currently hateful message of the RCC is something many Americans oppose, something even many RCs oppose. 

Lisa,
You are absolutely right. Individuals should be able to choose.  I choose to follow the teachings in the Bible, which clearly address these issues. I choose to have faith in 1 holy Apostolic Church. I choose to believe in 1 God and His Word.  I choose to make the leap of faith. This is what faithful loyal Catholics choose, out of love for God and the believe in The Bible and the Pentecost .  You make the assumption that Catholics are like sycophants, blind followers. It is not true. And the bishops statements merely follow the Bible, particularly the Pentateuch. If you find us so abhorrent, then do not, for your own stress level, come to this publication.

Lisa,
Being against same-sex marriage is not hate speech. Again, I ask, be specific. Simply because you disagree with a particuler moral stance of the Catholic Church does not prove hate speech. Again, put up or shut up.

Jen,

Yes, here in America and in the West as a whole, you are free to choose what interpretation of the Bible you feel is right for you to follow.  and I do not assume that all Rcs are blind followers.  Even said as much above—I stated above—many RCs oppose the messages of hate the RC bishops put out in the world.  Most RCs support same-sex marriage, most RCs practice contraception via artificial birth control, the majority of RCs voted for Obama (even though the RC bishops opposed his re-election). So the smart RCs oppose the hateful meeages of the RC bishops.

The bishops follow their particular interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures.  Theirs is not the only or best interpretation out there in the world. And their intepretation of Hebrew scripture is often off-base.  The RC bishops cherry pick from Hebrew scripture.  And they do not acknowledge the social, political, religious context in which the Hebrew scriptures were written.  The bishops ignore what they want to ignore from Hebrew scripture, misinterpret much of it, and try to push a fundamentalist interpretation on some of it.  The NAB tranlsation is excellent, but the interpretation the RC bishops want to foist on RCs is not.

Victor,

the RC bishops not only oppose smae-sex marriage, they indicate that same-sex marriage will be negatively affect the whole institution of marriage, etc.  the oppose equla protection under the law, purusant to the 14th amendment of the US Constitution, for gay Americans.  Sorry, but your bishops do engage in hate speech.  You just refuse to acknowledge that reality.  And that is fine.  The US Supreme Court will legalize same-sex marriage by June 2013.  And that will be reality that neither you nor the RCC will be able to ignore.  Of coures the RC bishops will continue to engage in hate speech agaisnt gay people and same-sex marriage after June. 

They are free to engage in hate speech, but let’s call the spade, a spade. Let’s be honest about what the RC bishops are doing—they are promoting hate, bigotry, intolerance, discrimination.

Disagree all you want, it does not change the facts.  If you do not know what your bishops are saying and doing, please read up.  You seem to be unaware.

Lisa,
Your opinion is not proof.
Are you a lesbian? Is that why you are so vehement?
For someone who preaches tolerance, you are most intolerant.

Victor,

I am not tolerant of hate speech—whether from the KKK or the RC bishops.  It does not matter who engages in it, no matter the reason, it is deplorable.

So straight people cannot stand up against hate speech???  Only people of color should stand up agaisnt racism?? Only women should stand up against domestic violence????  Remember the poet John Donne? “No man is an island.”  We are all human beings, we all live on the same planet.  What affects one, affects all.  That is what community is about. Apparently the bishops have been too busy preaching hate to teach RCs about community.

You really do seem unaware of the actions , speeches, writings of the RC bishops.  Their actions and writings are proof of their message of hate. You are of course free to ignore the facts.

Lisa,
interpretation of the Bible? really? I can account for 5 books in the Bible where it explicitly says if a man lies with another man it is an abomination-from Hebrew to Greek to English. Unless you are like Bill Clinton who questions the meaning of the word “is”, there is little room for interpretation. Nice try.

Jen,

Sorry, but the political, social, relgious, historical context in which soemthing is written matters.  No author of any book of the scripture was writing about gay people, same-sex marriage, homosexuality in the way that these concepts are understood in the 21st century. The prohibition in Leviticus is about idolatry, temple sex, NOT same-sex marriage.  And of course paul was not talking about gay people, etc in the way that being gay is understood in the 21st century.

Yes, the bishops are cherry picking through scripture.  they decide some things apply and others don’t.  their interpretation is not logical or consistent.  Otherwise RCs would be keeping kosher, observing the purity laws of marriage, etc.

Sorry you do not know about understanding scripture (or any other writings) in the context of it time and place.

Lisa,
I’m not sure what Bible you read but it is certainly not the Roman Catholic Bible. such issues are explicit in the Pentateuch. Your remarks demonstrate bigotry and Prejudice, along with an unwillingness to accept the truth or any other position except for your own. it must be a lonely place for you.

Jen,

i use the New American Bible—which is the Bble approved by the American RC bishops and which they post on their web site.

The tranlsation is excellent.

And I think you are confusing translation with interpretation.  Again, the time and palce in which soemthing is written affects its meaning.  Every Biblical scholar (yes, RC Biblical scholars included) know this.  And in the world of biblical interpretation, there will be differences of opinion on what something means within the context of the time and place of its writing.

The interpretation the RC bishops give scripture is but one interpretation.  Biblical scholars (evern RC Biblical scholars), different faith traditions, interpret scripture very very differently. 

For example, Christians interpret the prophets of Hebrew scripture to be talking about Jesus.  Jews of course will very definitely disagree with that interpretation of the writings of their prophets.

Other Christian faith traditions do not accept that the NT passages of the last supper mean the same thing the RCC says it means.  Only the RCC interprets the text of the last suppoer literally re the body and blood of Jesus.  Its a difference of interpretation of the same text. 

In the same way, prohibitions against homosexuality found in the Bible are not about homosexuality as it is understood in the 21st century.  The authors of the prohibitions against same-sex activity were not talking about committed relationships, were not talking about same-sex marriage, were not talking about gay people.  They were talking about temple sex, idolatry, rape as weapon of war, they were talking about the irresponsible exercise of sex/sexual activity.

Time and place in which something is written affects its meaning. Its about context. Every passage of scripture was written within a specific historical, political, religious and social context.  That is not my opinion.  It is the opinion of every reputable Biblical scholar of every faith tradition and it is the opinion of every historian.  Even the RC bishops acknowledge this. 

Disagreement comes with how various scholars determine how the context of a text affects its meaning.  Scholars may agree something was written at a certain time and place, but disagree how that should affect the interpretation of a text.

So no, the RCC’s interpretation of scripture is certainly NOT universally accepted as “truth”.  And no, it is certainly not “lonely” for me.  I am in the company of lots and lots of reputable Biblical scholars.

Lisa,
Your relentless attempts are futile.

Lisa will be added to my list of intentions that I bring before the Blessed Sacrament.

Jen,

Yes, I know your mind is closed and the my “relentless efforts” are futile.  It attitudes like yours that will cripple the RCC from within and make it into an irrelevant sect.  And that is too bad.  Right-wing RCs and the hierarchy are squandering the potional of Vatican II to help make the world a better place.  Also, sorry the RCC is failing to teach RCs about Biblical scholarship and interpretation.  Such lack of knowledge among RCs make it impossible for them to effectvely communicate their faith to each other and/or to people of other faith traditions.

Jennifer,

Have it.  The “blessed sacrament” is a myth, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Hi Lisa. Would you mind maybe clarifying what you do believe in, even if that’s not necessarily theological?

Jennifer,

i believe in God—the God of the Bible.  I beleive that god created is dynamic (meant to change), that God is the God of diversity (God created all kinds of living and non-living things and systems and rarely created one of anything).  I beleive that the most important message of scripture is that we are all made in the image of God (we have intelligence, conscience, self-awareness).  I believe in the Decalogue and in the social teachings of the Torah—taking care of the poor and vulnerable, loving god and neighbor, welcoming the stranger, being a responsible member of my community, taking care of each other, etc. that God is the Eternal One, Ruler of the Universe.  I believe that Jesus was a wonderful rabbi/teacher who taught straight from the Torah and who made the already ancient Torah relevant and compelling for the people of his time and community.  But I do not beleive that Jesus was God and/or messiah. 

I think the message of love of God and neighbor is a compelling one and one that has done much good in the world.

I believe that there are 3 spearate and equal Abrahmic traditions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. That God hs separate, ongoing, unbroken, valid covenants of love with each of these traditions.  That each of these traditions is equal in the sight of God, and that none is better than or triumphant over the other two.

That’s pretty much in nutshell.  what do you believe in?

Hi Lisa - thank you for your reply. You sound like an intelligent and reasonable person despite our differences in theology and social teaching. You asked what I believe - you’re probably familiar with the Apostle’s Creed, which is a summary of Roman Catholic beliefs. Take Care.

Jennifer,

Yes, the Apostle’s Creed and the Nicene creed are excellent summaries of RC belief.

Believe it or not, I do root for the RCC. It has vast potential to do good in the world.  It has a long and checkered history. A dark history mixed with in with a message of love. If the RCC went with a message of love instead of getting bogged down in dogma, doctrine, defintions of who is or is not a “real” Catholic” fighting against married priests, women as priests, gay people, artifical contraception; getting bogged down in running a bank, maintinaing vast amounts of real estate, its corrupt and ineffective Curia, its insistence that it is the only “true” faith, etc, etc, then it could truly be an unstoppable force for good in the world.

If it truly reached out to work hand in hand, as equal partners (and not as objects for conversion) with Jews and Muslims to end war, hunger, poverty, disease, then, then, the the world would be a much better place.

If the RCC truly saw and valued and acknowledged God’s covenants with Jews and Mulsims, then we could all work together to fulfull the commandment of Deuteronomy, “justice, justice shall you pursue.” 

If the RCC would embrace and not reject the reforms of Vatican II, then it would be an unstoppable force for good in the world.

When the RCC just continues to blithely squander its vast potential to do great things in the world, it is mucho frustrating to watch.

Lisa,
You say you “root for the Roman Catholic Church.”  After insulting all faithful in this thread! Don’t you really mean to say you root for your own terms and conditions?  I guess those pesky theologians and scholars are a nuisance, while the rest of us are ignorant in your OPINION. As you said, you are sorry that we just don’t understand.  wow, how did we all become so stupid. Really?

Jesus (almighty God) taught us that all sexual activity outside of a committed and exclusive relationship between one man and one woman is naturally disordered and mortally sinful.  if someone disagrees with that teaching, they should realize that they are disagreeing with almighty God, not just His Church.  if someone believes differently, they should have at least some facts to support their belief and not just emotions running rampant in their hearts and minds.

contrary to some who have posted on this thread, Catholics believe in the teachings of Jesus as handed down by His designated authorities.  Jesus created the Roman Catholic Magisterium.  to believe otherwise (whether such a person knows it or not), is to believe that this generation cannot authoratatively know what Jesus (the True God and True Man) really taught.  a further consequence of disbelieving in the Roman Catholic Magisterium is to believe that Jesus’ life, teachings,death and resurrection were an exercise in futility because it was incapable of maintaing fidelity to those teachings for subsequent generations.  that is why i am a Roman Catholic, because to be otherwise is to embrace a life of despair bereft of the Grace of Almighty God.  i, as a Roman Catholic, reject completely that the teachings of Jesus cannot be definitively known.

Eddie too
Well said…..i think the antagonist on this thread is merely just that. I notice that the posts begin just at the time the children in my neighborhood return from school. Perhaps this engagement of uncivilized debate has been merely a very sad pastime for a petulant individual whom I shall add to my prayers. I have seen no points of substance nor valid logic and substantiation. Truth be told.

Jen,

Sorry you have not been able to follow the points of the discussion.  My points have been vaild, with substance and logic.  You seemingly refuse to believe that the RCC engages in Biblcial scholarship and that scripture has historical, political, soicial and religious context, and that Biblical scholars use that contrext to interpret meaning of scripture.  you may want to to some reading by and about RC Bibilical scholars, Jewish biblical scholars (there is a wonderful Jewish scholar of the NT, Amy-Jill Levine who teaches at the divinity school at vanderbilt whose scholarship of the NT may open your eyes) and Protestant biblcial scholars.

Eddie,

There are many faith traditions aside from RCism—christian and non-christian.  Yes, you believe what you believe about Jesus, the RC magisterium, etc.  But the RCC does not contain the sole truth of God on earth.  God has separate, valid, ongoing and unbroken covenants of love with Jews, Christians (not just RCs) and Muslims.  Each of these Abrahamic traditions is equal in the sight of God, no one traditions is better than or triumphant over the other two.  God’s love and grace are always available to all.

You might to look up what Pope Francis has to say about a church that is entirely self-referential.

Lisa,
Once again you condescend. I frankly do understand your posts but I absolutely disagree with you. Its that simple. You display consummate gaul.

A reasoned discussion between people with differing theological views can be quite enlightening if there is an atmosphere of mutual respect. Unfortunately, Lisa was allowed rant on this forum about what she perceived as hate speech on the USCCB website, concerning the Catholic position on homosexuality.
She viciously attacked what most of us who contributed to this forum hold dear.

A few years ago, I was asked to moderate a debate between a well-known Catholic apologist and a notorious Baptist minister.  In my opinion, the minister lacked intellectual integrity, so I refused the request. I do not believe that anti-Catholics should be allowed a forum where they can spew their ignorance, bigotry, and hatred. 

Enough is enough.

Lisa, may I suggest the Unitarian/Universalist church for you?
You clearly are not even trying to understand Catholicism.
Don’t go away mad…

Some merely make a sport of antagonizing on these threads, just to spur a reaction. I feel sorry for them.

Jen,

You mean no should ever disagree with right-wing opinion of the Register and amany of its readers?  God gave us intelligence, and the ability to question everything.  In Muslims, Islam means “submission” or surrender”.  i am not Muslim. In the Book of Genesis, jacob wrestles the angel. God approves and changes Jacob’s name to Israel—God-wrestler. May we never just abdicate our intelligence to fallible human beings and may we alwasy wrestle with God.

vistor,

I am not “anti-Catholic”.  But I am no fan of the RCC’s corrupt hierarchy and its hate speech.  In the US, the largest “denomination” is former RCs.  Perhaps the RCC should pay attention to that.

hd enough,

Unfortunately I understand RCism all too well.  And I have already belong to a very vibrant, God-centered faith tradition.

Lisa,
Enough. You know all too well that is not what I am saying. I simply disagree with you and will no longer be subject to your bullying.  Conservation ends here. You have bullied, and twisted my words for the last time. You may have the last word. The faithful in this thread are open to civil discussion in an adult manner, yet you have taken advantage of such good nature. If one does not agree with you, your comments become Chile. Enough! No more! I refuse to allow your insults. Future comments will be ignored as a result of your incivility..

Vile not Chile….auto correct…..put light spin O’this horrific encounter

Jen,

I am certainly not “bullying” anyone.  I am expressing my opinions.  And I have not twsited any of your comments.  And my comments are not “vile”.  If you do not wish to comment on this thread,  you are certainly free to not do that.