Hi Adrienne, Peace to you.
No prob about the repeated posts. I’ve done that myself several ways, thinking my original post has not been accepted for some reason, or worse, I hit the ‘back’ button and reposted reposted reposted, lol.
You brought up leprechauns and Thor, do you spend as much time debating leprechauns and Thor with others? I was not aware that there were enough of others who had faith in leprechauns and Thor as to worthy consideration that they may actually be existant as is obviously the case with the Judeo-Christian God.
What other beings which you do not believe in that you give as much attention to as you are doing to God on this thread? Has someone forced you to be here, to post your original post? Why should you be paying this much attention regarding something that is not evident to you? Why have you simply not dismissed and ignored the statements regarding this supposed ‘imaginary’ being?
You asked why should you pay attention unless you see evidence that would support His existence. Well, no one is forcing you to be here and continue this discussion of Him. I realize that my comment “you have no interest in paying Him any mind” is what prompted this question of yours.
Is not the fact that so many people over the centuries have claimed and claim they have a relationship with this particular ‘imaginary’ Being a form of evidence? You have no evidence of my husband, so if I told you of him, would you doubt his existance also? Now granted, we know of males on earth, so I understand that the concept that I would have a relationship with a male isn’t as much of a reach as my claim to a relationship with a God. However for you to say that God does not exist is claiming that all of us who claim a relationship with God are liars. Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of humans continue to be that deluded? Even if we were, the fact that there is so many of us is “evidence”.
Also, are you or are you not aware of a concept of God? Well obviously you are. Why then do you think this also is not evidence of His existance? (Keeping in mind that evidence and proof are two different things.) If there is an omnipotent Being, that which created us and is far superior…nay perfect, absolutely perfect, in intelligence and presence, is that something we can conceive on our own?
It is impossible for a lesser being to be able to conceive a greater being.
Yet man has had the concept of a greater being for ages. We had a concept of a greater being before we had a concept of beings of similar nature possibly living in the stars, for example, long before such an idea of the latter was even brought to our consciences, we have had a concept of God, a being that has no foundation in anything temporal. How can this be? Where did such a concept come from?
My point, Adrienne, is that the fact that we even have an idea of a diety, the fact that we have a concept of a Spiritual Being, is more evidence. Not proof, but evidence. So there is evidence, I just presented you with two, and there are more…but two should be enough. And where there is evidence, there cannot be complete denial until that evidence is found to be sourced elsewhere.
You asked why are humans so self-involved if god created us to look out for each other?
Because we are not Perfection like Him.
You suggested that tornados are evil…but they are not. Not all difficulties are evil. Evil is a willful action. Tornados, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, etc are not willful actions. Even certain things resulting from human failures (car accidents, electrical fires, bridge collapses, etc) are not necessarily due to evil…tho some are because of a result of greed on some people who willfully cut corners to put a little more $ in their pockets, and that is evil. Evil is willful acts.
Do we need a supervisory being to tell us right from wrong? Some people apparently do. It is why we have laws. Our jails are full of people who thought wrong was right, and they are in jail because we are forcing our moral values on them. Our disasterous housing market is a result of people who thought wrong was right. Some people don’t need to be told, but obviously others do. If people did not need to be told right from wrong, we would have no need for laws, for courts. You may not need God’s laws to tell you to not kill another person, neither do I. But God apparently believed that some people do. And is He wrong (assuming of course that He exists)? Have you heard of anyone killing another person?
Do you think that when a person is shooting another they are thinking “This is wrong” or are they thinking “I have a right to do this”? I know the answer to this. Of course every case is different, but I worked in a jail facility for many years. There was a man (man A)in custody who shot another man (man B)who was running away from him. Man A was being charged with murder and he was very upset. He claimed that he should be charged with manslaughter only because he yelled out to man B who was running away from him “Stop! Stop or I will shoot you!” and when man B (who was running away because he was afraid he was going to get killed) did not stop, man A shot him in the back. Man B of course fell down, then man A went up to him and shot man B dead, point blank. Man A, now in custody thought he had every right to kill man B because he (man A) yelled out “stop” and man B did not. He honestly could not understand why he was being charged with murder.
Adrienne, do you think this guy did not need to be told he should not kill by a ‘supervisory being’? I don’t know for sure, but I’m pretty sure that man A at some point was taught that killing another person was wrong…but somewhere along the line he decided for himself that it was o.k.
Now you may not need to be told this, but some others do.
Now as to why God gave us superior brains, I do not know.
“If a thought or action is truly good, or at least harmless, do we need a god
to tell us so?” That depends on the thought or action I suppose. I do know that I need to tell my children that some things are good and some things are not because I can see things they cannot depending on their age and comprehension. For example, when my Little Ones were 3 I needed to tell them not to run out in the middle of the street. They did not understand why because after all “I can run Mommy, really, see how fast I can run! I won’t fall down.” Telling them they might get hit by a car simply did not register. They could not comprehend.
If God does exist (and again, there is enough evidence that He might exist) then He has to have a better comprehension of things then we do. It would be as audacious for us to believe that we could possibly know all there is to know about things that could/would harm us (be from our own action, or from the natural), but would it be audacious for an omnipotent creator to think He knew all things? For example: We are told in the Old Testament that the Jews were not to eat pork. Can you think of why this might be knowing now things of pork that humans did not know then?
“...is it good in its own right, with positive consequences to our society as we know it?” Is a thing good because it brings about positive consequences or do we have positive consequences because we do something good? Is it a result, or a reward? I think there is a bit of both depending on how you look at it. However I do believe that the result is not the determination of whether or not something is good. An example, there is no doubt that there are those who hid Jews during the holocaust, and the Jews were caught. As a result both the hidden Jews and those that hid them were slaughtered. So was hiding them a good thing to do? Some would say yes, some would say no. I say yes, because I believe that good is not based on the result of the action. In a world without a God, would I believe the same? I don’t know. (I’m not sure if this answers your question.)
You stated “If we need a god to give us morals, then morals are not our choice and we have no free will.”
Please expound your concept a bit more. Thank you.
“If we can judge for our selves, based on the observed consequences of human actions, what is right or wrong, why do we need a god?”
Is that all you think an omnipotent creator would do, would be ‘good for’? To judge?
“Don’t any of you people read philosophy?” Yes ;-)