Apparently, during the Irish potato famine, Protestants would set up soup kitchens.  Free food if you reject your Catholic faith!

This kinda reminded me of that, in a slightly less extreme way.

In case it’s not clear, I totally agree with where you’re coming from.  In difficult circumstances, I like it when someone gently offers to pray with me (like my OB did, after a miscarriage), but it should never, ever be mandatory.

Great post! I didn’t agree with you at first, but the more I read the more I understood and totally agree.  Feed first and be open to prayer second.

Amen! I can see how even people with faith would be turned off if prayer was just another hoop they had to jump through to get fed. I know our Protestant brothers and sisters mean well, but some of them could use a lesson on subtlety.

Protestant-style praying ALWAYS makes me feel uncomfortable, no matter WHAT the context.  I’m just not comfortable with the whole publicly shouting out everything you’re thankful for and everything you need.  It’s too exhibitionist for me—it’s not that I don’t thank God or ask Him for help, but I like to do it silently, and I don’t like the feeling of being on display while praying.

That’s why, whenever I’m at an interdenominational something and asked to pray, I just say an Our Father.  Sure, it’s “always the same” but it’s the words Jesus gave us! And any made-up-on-the-spot prayer ends up being nothing more than a meandering, painfully embarrassing, pale imitation of the Our Father anyway.  (Actually, if soup kitchens and food pantries just kicked it off with inviting everyone to join in the Lord’s Prayer, I bet there’d be a lot less resentment—because then everyone is praying together, it’s not some people praying at others, or for the entertainment of others.

You make a good point. I never thought about it that way either. Thanks.

Thanks Simcha. I always wondered how to connect sandwich lines and winter clothing give-aways with the even more important charity of feeding people’s souls. This post helped me realize that the fact that those things are done at a church staffed by faithful people is itself evangelization.

I recently heard of a couple in the neighboring town who began a ministry bringing furniture to people who need it. No hoops to jump through, not even a proof that you are poor. If you need something and ask for it , they bring it. I know if they deliver a refrigerator they fill it full of food. I think they bring food to people who don’t get fridges too. Anyway, they don’t make people pray or anything like that. But they always bring a crucifix and tell people: Don’t thank us. This this is who is giving you the furniture, food, etc. I think that strikes just the right note. It isn’t preachy, just a statement of fact. It leaves it up to the recipient what they do with the crucifix. They don’t have to pray or anything. But it also does extend a sort of invitation to consider why they are willing to give these gifts to complete strangers.

Recently money was so tight we had to decide between bills and food. So I signed up for a food box from a little Bible church in our city. I felt very sheepish going to pick it up. But the man handing out boxes was quiet and pleasant. He did ask where I went to church and I thought “Here it comes.” But when I named my Catholic parish he smiled and said “I hear that’s a fine church, lots of good people there.” I never would have been so nice in my Protestant days (and maybe not even now) so God bless that man!

This is something I think about a lot. I have found that Catholic charities typically are the least guilty of requiring ANYTHING from those they serve. A related thing I learned from my own wife was that of handing over stained up worn out clothes to the poor. Like, if your clothes are so worn out, stained up and holey to use yourself then why ‘give’ them to poor people? Like as if they’re not worthy of some dignity beyond your trash? I was raised dirt poor by a single mom with 8 children and I can say that I have been on the receiving end many times growing up. So I initially had a hard time throwing away old stained baby clothes but then I realized that one reason we were always treated like trash was because we often wore old discarded rags nobody else wanted. So if our stuff is not good for us we throw it in the garbage or use it for cleaning rags. Same goes for food. If we want to give to the food pantry, we buy it from the grocery store. And it is true, just because someone is poor doesn’t mean they have a spiritual problem or they are lazy. It was surely none of us kids fault that our father abandoned my mother and leave to a life of hardship.

Also: Matthew 6:5-6

@Kara H…so true, made me think of “Travelyans corn”. Never forget, *An Gorta Mor*.

bob cratchit, you make a good point about stained clothes.  I read somewhere that it actually costs some charities extra money when they have to sort through and dispose of stained and torn clothing.  I used to give stained (not torn) clothing on the assumption that someone else might be better at getting out stains than me, but now I just toss it in the garbage.

Great post, Simcha!!

Right on.  The message stops being evangelizing and becomes proselytizing when it’s forced on anyone.  And, to assume that only the poor need to hear the Good News, when our Lord said so much about the woeful state of the rich…it’s elitist and repulsive to force the poor to acknowledge their gratitude to God.  I don’t believe the message of Jesus contained a quid pro quo statement anywhere in the Gospels.
Thanks for another great post.

I hear ya, Simcha, but it’s better than the suggestion that anyone on public assistance submit to sterilization or implanted birth control.  That was a suggestion I read on a “Christian” blog.

Thank you.  Hits very close to home…

That’s a good point about the poor vs. rich and the need to hear the Good News.  When we’re struggling, it’s easy to acknowledge our dependance on the grace of God— we need it to get through the day, we see how little we really are.

When we’re succeeding easily and “by our own hard work and talent” it’s a lot easier to forget that we depend on God, not ourselves.  It’s easier to think we’re doing HIM a favor by choosing to “take time out for him.”  The poor do a lot better at the whole humility thing.

(I’ve noticed this in myself, not so much WRT money at this point, but WRT talent—-when I get to spend my day doing something I’m good at, I’m a lot less mindful of God then when I have to spend my time with tasks I’m horrible at.  Thankfully, he gave me a vocation where I’m pretty terrible at 75-80% of what I do! (SAHM.  Even keeping up with dishes and laundry is a huge struggle for me.  If I was a bestselling novelist and could afford a housekeeper, I’d have many fewer opportunities to see how small and helpless I really am!)

Anyway, the poor are probably praying constantly anyway, just in their heads.  “Please God, help me get the kids onto this bus.  Please Lord, give us a way to pay the electric bill. Sweet Jesus, send him a job, any job - he’s not proud, he just wants to support his family!”  It’s a lot harder to be thankful when you think you’ve EARNED what you have.

And THIS is why I still follow you. Despite your opinionated preference for boorish hairy men. Thank you.

Most people think if you are poor you are stupid or lazy. Most poor people I know work several jobs, as many as 3 part time jobs. This was an excellent article on what I call “conditional charity”. My Irish great-grandmother knew all about it when she had to chose between soup and her Catholicism.

Huh.  I have been told by the Vincent de Paul in our town to go ahead and give the stained, torn clothes, because they will sort it and sell it to a company that shreds it & uses it for filler or padding in things. They would rather have it than put it in the trash.  ??

At the Lord’s food pantry in Indianapolis, a Catholic outreach, the volunteers pray before they open the doors - they are invited to see Jesus in everyone who walks through the door.  Seems like this is the best time for public prayer!

I sometimes donate stained clothes to the crisis pregnancy center, but tell them “these are stained, but if a mom needs Mud-clothes for her kids, pass them on!”  I always had problems because people gave my kids jeans and t-shirts with the warning “and make sure they don’t get these dirty!” and so I’ve always found it helpful to have a selection of “Get dirty clothes” that are obviously pre-ruined.  Because even if I paid a quarter for something at a rummage sale, if it looked nice and relatives caught my kids playing in it, I got scolded.  And my kids spend more time in mud than they do in “nice clothes” situations! (And sometimes end up up a tree or in a pile of dirt even when we go somewhere ‘clean’ like the library.)

I agree with you.  To be honest, I never saw Catholic charity require prayer until my son’s Confirmation project and it absolutely left an impression.    Last year, he and I were volunteering at a soup kitchen run by Mother Teresa’s Sisters of Charity.    Before eating there was a Bible reading and a reflection.  I didn’t actually hear it, but my son came back to where I was and said to me, “All these people want to do is eat and that lady keeps yammering on about the Bible reading.”  </P></P>

We then had a discussion about how that’s not standard operating procedure among Catholic charities.    He does know because his Boy Scout Troop volunteers on a regular basis with the local Catholic food pantry, but it made him so uncomfortable that I felt it necessary to affirm his discomfort.

Great article.  I totally agree.  Your points also made me think about a related question:  your description of how it feels to be poor in certain ways reminds me how it felt to be a kid.  Obviously it’s different, and parents are obliged to teach their children the faith, but how do we avoid making children feel coerced in family prayer?  My husband and I are expecting our first, so we’ve been talking about this.  I said we should probably start a regular family rosary, at least weekly.  He asked how that worked when my family did it, and I had to admit I hated it.  I only started appreciating the rosary at all years later, saying it with friends at college, or in front of the abortion clinic.  In fact, neither of us could think of anybody we know who has a good memory of their family rosary. On the other hand, I never felt resentful at having to go to Mass and confession, or at saying a morning offering or grace before meals.  I apologize if this is derailing the discussion - if so, just say so.  But if you felt inspired to write a future post on this, I’d love to read it…

Whoa!!  Deirdre!  That’s crazy that people would give you kid clothes and tell you to make sure the kids don’t get them dirty.  Except for my teenage daughter, the rest of my kids (all boys) maybe own one thing each that I don’t want getting dirty.  And I’m pretty sure some of their suits/blazers are machine washable.    At a typical family wedding where kids are invited the boys are off playing Nerf football, which means they’re rolling around in the dirt in their absolute best clothes.

I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t accept clothes for my boys with that kind of a condition put on them.

Oooh, ARM, great question.  Having two teenagers now, I know our kids do feel coerced but it’s probably the only area of their lives that’s not up for any debate whatsoever, so we figure that sends a message too.  We hope it’s a positive one.

Like a previous commenter, I’ve served a a woman’s shelter run by the Missionaries of Charity, and witnessed them do a bible study before dinner (while the volunteers were setting up the meal), then several prayers immediately before the meal, once everyone was seated at the table. 
The impression I came away with (and I am very aware that I wasn’t there as a recipient of the meal or services and so my experience is not the same as the other women’s experience) was that the bible reading, the praying, the coming around with the bottle of holy water and offering it to any of the women who wanted to bless themselves, all this was a normal part of the Sisters’ day.  They weren’t praying with the women because the women were poor and in need of help- they were praying with the women because that’s what the Sisters did.

I think point of view is at the absolute heart of this.  I think that if the organizers knew that to some they were coming off as spiritual predators, they would find a way to present prayer in a different light.  Maybe. 

On the other hand, if anyone had said to one of those Sisters, “Hey, I don’t want to pray before the meal,”  I don’t think they would have changed their practice.

This is an interesting piece, Simcha, thanks for sharing it.

Simcha, I agree.  Any act of love with a condition, no matter how good that condition is for me, is not an act of true love.  We only need to look as far as the Cross to see that the ultimate act of love was absolutely unconditional.  As Christians we should encourage all into a relationship with Christ by our actions and words, but not coerce or force them.

I really appreciated this post. Thank you.

Any practice of philanthropy that involves attaching strings designed to coerce the poor into accepting a practice to which they would normally object is not true philanthropy.  It is merely using your influence to try to get your way.

It is kind of you to forgive them their boorishness.  I think I know why they do it.  It’s the same reason that when I do nice things for people, I don’t tell them the truth.  I don’t say “I am actually a jerk.  And I am only being nice to you because I am a follower of Jesus Christ, who has infinite reserves of goodness to share with you through jerky people like me.  Here’s your soup.”  It makes any human feel vulnerable to say “I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and that is why I am helping you.”  If you just leave it at that, without asking what the other person thinks, you feel exposed.  You feel weird.  It’s easier, and much more comfortable, to insist that the other person agree with you.  If they won’t agree with you that Jesus is Lord (or at least pay respectful silence while others proclaim it so), then they get no soup.  Maybe the threat of “no soup” wouldn’t be enforced, but that’s certainly the message.  And that’s just not how Jesus would have us deal with one another.  So, in sum, I agree with you.  Thanks for writing this.

I find it really powerful when you talk about how poor you were earlier in your marriage, because of how you remained open to children and have worked toward more stability. It would be interesting if you did a post with greater detail to how those situations came up and how they shaped you.

As for this specific instance: absolutely! I think the primary difference between a Christian and a public food pantry should be the motivator keeping it open. The Christian should be their out of *love* for the poor, whereas the public food pantry, as funded by the government, is there because they feel the poor are stupid and unable to help themselves. It’s always good to remember that Jesus *loved* the poor. It’s hard to love somebody and judge them at the same time.

lettersto.us

I used to wash up at a soup kitchen run by the MCs. They had a short reading from the bible, sang a hymn and said grace before food was served. But as someone’s already said, they weren’t doing it *at* people. It was just normal that people should want to pray together.

There’s a short story by H. L. Mencken in which a “free-thinking” philanthropist holds a feast for hobos, tramps, bums, and idlers of every description. At the end, to the philanthropist’s great dismay, the guests start loudly confessing their sins, claim to see the light, and shout hallelujahs—-because they’ve been forced to do it so often by various religious missionary groups before being able to eat the “free” food.

@Cari and Bereniki - The thing is the MC’s who are there don’t really speak much English (native Hindi speakers, I think)and the majority of volunteers were still doing stuff in the back so there was no question that the Bible study and reflection were for the benefit of the guests, about a third of whom only spoke Spanish and indigenous Mayan languages anyway.  My then twelve y.o. son acutely felt the power wielding that was going on in those few moments - just one more indignity the poor must suffer.   

I don’t mean to give the impression that their mission isn’t wonderful, because it is.  The MC soup kitchen has since become my go to drop off place for leftovers that I know my family won’t finish.  My youngest starts pre-k in the Fall and I’ve been figuring on going back to help out.  Clearly, the MC’s are filling a void in the inner city.  But I wish prayer cards were handed out with meals or a separate invitation to a Bible study were issued at the meal.    And since I have NO intention of starting my own soup kitchen in the middle of Norristown, PA, I just keep my mouth shut and help out however I can.

When I serve with St. Vincent de Paul we invite people to attend our parish Masses and other functions.  One thing I’ve found having been desperately poor and with serving the poor is that many poor singles and families do not feel welcomed into the life of the Church or many communities.  I feel like part of our ministry with St. V d P is getting to know our regular clients and offering them a support system beyond feeding their bellies once a month.

But maybe you all would consider that too intrusive?

Jennifer,
I’m pretty sure the author, as well as the commenters, are making a clear distinction between an invitation to do something and an order to do something.

I totally agree with you. Anything that is enforced is resented—and that includes prayer. It makes the poor person grovel in gratitiude and that is not how it should be..
Prayer should be voluntary not enforced.

Amazing! I rarely read any blogger who states that they were dirt poor and humiliated. Sometimes it seems to me that the Catholic mom bloggers live in a rather special space. I know they might have many different and serious problems they write about but being terribly poor isn’t one of them. I am especially concerned when I see beautiful photographs of redone rooms, lovely gardens, festive table settings and pics from the latest vacation. It is a club many readers can not be a part of.  Thank You for your post. For those who are humbled by debt, poor rental apartments, public transportation rather than the family car, and unable to participate in the parish bus trip to the outlet stores before Christmas a blog with hope and faith and day to day stories would be so welcome. I am not bitter just realistic and would love to see a blog about a family who is experiencing Involuntary Lady Poverty .

This is also an argument against mandatory prayers in public schools, precisely because students, like the poor, have no choice.  There is a real risk that this could lead to resentment.  I don’t know that it’s a winning argument, but it certainly has to be considered.

Not unrelated are the “prayers of the faithful” at all too many parishes, in which we are asked to essentially endorse the cultural or political opinions of the person praying—micromanaging God at Mass, as someone said recently.

Or, for that matter, the (mostly Protestant) habit of a long prayer that is *supposedly* directed towards God, but which is clearly a sermon to a congregation “with every head bowed and every eye closed”.  I came to see those as genuinely blasphemous.

Wow…I’ve never heard of such a thing!  How absolutely horrible.  Good intentions or not, that is not the nature of GOD and aren’t we supposed to imitate HIM?  Every charitable apostolate in our Parish will pray with anyone if they want but will not if the person in need prefers it that way.  It’s abundantly clear that we are a Catholic charity and our belief is we live the life of Christ even when we don’t use words.  I cannot imagine it any other way.  We propose not impose.

I would be interested in the related discussion, brought up here, of “coercing” your children in prayer.

I think the point you are making in this post is quite profound. I was lucky enough to visit Rome this summer. In the Vatican Museum I saw a series of small paintings from the late Middle Ages depicting the seven corporal works of mercy, and I was struck by the fact that in each of them the person being fed, clothed, etc. was shown with a halo, as a reminder that it is really Christ we are serving in the poor and needy and we should treat them accordingly. Now, who would have the nerve to force Christ to say prayers?

Apple—that actually reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from the show Joan of Arcadia—-One of God’s frequent “disguises” in the show is “homeless guy.”  Well, Joan is volunteering for the day at the shelter, and homeless God is there (of course) and there’s this moment where he asks if there;s any coffee left and the ex-nun who runs the shelter (who has had a really bad day at that point) snaps at him and says something like, “what do you think I am, your servant?” or something to that effect.  And of course Joan, who can SEE what the woman just did, is flabbergasted that the woman dissed God…. but it makes a really important point about seeing Christ in the poor…....

You have a good point.  I think if assistance and support is offered at a location with a church or chapel nearby, or even a room set aside for quiet prayer, that those whom the Church serves by outreach should simply make it known to people that chapel or church is available should they wish to stop in to pray, or that someone would be willing to pray with them, or for them, however it works best, and those who work with the poor who seek assistance should themselves pray and use the chapel themselves.  Everyone could use a chance to pray.  It certainly should not be offered as a carrot or a bribe or anything of the sort but the Church is able to offer both the spiritual and corporal works of mercy and so both ought to be extended.  To anyone really regardless of circumstances.  We all need possibilities and invitation for quiet prayer.  Especially in trying circumstances, we can remember our dignity in God’s eyes and have courage to take the next good step with a chance for quiet prayer in a sacred space.

Actually Anne I know a lot of Catholic moms who are struggling financially.  Some blog, some don’t.  And just for being a Catholic mom, poor or not, often enough you get humiliated.  So we are all in the same boat.  Are Catholic moms statistically wealthier than others?  What are the numbers.  And if you’re talking plus 4 kids, well, that would be a rare Catholic blogging mom that you seem to say you see everywhere.  And since we are educated women here can we not agree of course that one mom giving up income, part time or full time, is making a serious sacrifice one may call a vocation of service on par with any vocation in the Church.  And then it would not be only one woman making that sacrifice but spouse as well.  With respect to the Catholic moms I know, a wealthy one is very very rare indeed—it is jut not reality.  I find it strange that you would harsh on Catholic mothers in this way.  I’ll tell you one thing they sure don’t have it easy.  Put it this way, sacrificing income and accepting greater than usual numbers of children tends to steer us to goodwill.  Maybe it is not your experience but there are a great many who are living quite happily in faith, really enjoying it, even though it’s not a cakewalk and people dump on them just for being Catholic or whatever their choices, in this economy and without pulling in the big bucks to show for it to other women besides.  Maybe you will rethink your words.  And, the ones I know also are putting in time as volunteers and serving at parish and in all sorts of ways besides.  I think you would enjoy knowing them.

I had the opportunity to work at Crisis Pregnancy Center A where everything was handed out with no strings attached.  The women served liked it so much they came back with pregnancy 2,3 and 4 etc.  Many by different fathers.  Rarely was anyone married or holding down a job.

Later I learned about Crisis Pregnancy Center B that provides parenting classes, bible study, lessons in money management, classes about healthy relationships etc.  Money for the center’s store was earned by attending classes. 

Someone above commented: “Any practice of philanthropy that involves attaching strings designed to coerce the poor into accepting a practice to which they would normally object is not true philanthropy.  It is merely using your influence to try to get your way.”

I disagree.  I give to Center B because I believe poor people do have choices.  I believe in providing means for them to understand their choices.  I believe God wants people to learn how to fish for themselves.  I seek out ministries like this that do provide the whole picture and that is who I give my money too.

That said, I’m not a fan of forced prayer but I think a spiritual presence can be very uplifting.  It does not sounds to me like praying before opening the doors is some kind of arm twisting force of prayer.  Perhaps some who came to this food pantry never had anyone pray for them and appreciated it.

“But the part I didn’t like was in the beginning:  Before they opened the auditorium, they made us pray.”

Do you mean they made sure you each individually were mouthing the words?  Or they simply offered a prayer that you were present for?

I run a Catholic crisis pregnancy center. We don’t talk about religion unless the woman initiates the conversation. This is deliberate: I don’t want to try to sell a bill of goods (namely Jesus) to her. Another CPC in town leads people to Christ first and helps the woman second. To me, this is horribly wrong. No one actually enjoys sitting through a time share pitch, I promise you.

Years ago when I was young/married/poor I needed to get my 3 year old daughter to the doctor because she was having an allergic reaction (we had one car which my husband had at work).  A neigbor’s mother offered a ride, for which I was grateful, but being the bible-thumping type she felt obliged to let me know in no uncertain terms she was doing this “for God” and started making demands, “Go inside, ask them how long it will take, come back out here and let me know(sure, why not! Drag a sick child in and out of a vast medical building! Like a medical receptionist would even know exactly how long anything would take!)” and so on.  This incident prolonged my atheism at least 5 years.  I understand now where she was going, but at the time, in my secular brain, I heard, “Listen, I don’t give a flying fig about you or your kid, I’m doing this to get brownie points with God, and frankly, I’m pretty put out…are you listening Lord?.”  I pretty much felt used and abused.  On the flip side, during my Godless era, I DID notice the quiet, humble way Catholics helped.  I thought about it alot.  The strange and wonderful way a Catholic would alway “be there” (with love!) when needed led to my conversion, absolutely. Please don’t ever underestimate the power of silent witness, “Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words.”

Simcha: your wonderful article brings to mind a sobering quote from St. Vincent de Paul in reference to serving the poor:

“It is not enough to give soup and bread. This the rich can do.  You are to be the servant of the poor…It is only for your love alone that the poor will forgive you the bread you give to them.”

I volunteered for many years at a Catholic Worker, and we were reminded that we were to serve the poor because WE were Christian, not because they were…

I’m lost in some respects.  Did they impose prayer on you like: Pray or else!!!.  Or did they ask you to pray and then without time to answer started praying?  Faith (therefore prayer)can never be imposed just like love can never be imposed. This is bedrock Christianity.  You can’t make someone love you!  Not even God can make someone love Him.  It would not be love if He did.  Back to the point.  As Catholics we are taught to propose not impose, but we must propose because He deserves to be talked about.

Bingo. I agree completely for all the reasons mentioned.. I wonder if an addition to the “OK list” would be: the volunteer group gathers within sight but unobtrusively a few minutes before the doors open, and have a quiet prayer together?

Re: the article, I wonder if the “forced prayer” will have to become the norm at any Catholic anything, given the extremely narrow definition of “religious organization” under Obamacare.  If Catholic charities want to continue to uphold and practice the faith, including not paying for contraception/sterilization, the forced prayer could become typical so as to be able to say that the purpose of the charity is proselytizing, rather than actually being charitable… 
Re: various comments, how could insisting that your minor children pray with you be in this same category at all?  Unless, of course, you also want to argue that insisting that your minor children do *anything* (not punch siblings, pitch in with chores, go to bed) is violating their freedom.  You don’t have any authority over adult strangers to insist that they follow your rules, but you have a *responsibility* to your children to teach them.  It would be incredibly patronizing to interview all the food pantry recipients about whether they get enough sleep, use their “indoor voices,” wear seat belts, pray, etc. but with your kids, that’s just called… rearing kids.

@Augusta:

I believe you have misunderstood Anne. 

I think her point is that it is refreshing to see a blog(post) about “real” poverty. 

Certainly all Catholic moms, even the ones with beautiful, glossy blogs, aren’t wealthy and most have given certain things up so that they can follow God’s will; however I think she does have a point:  most Catholic women who have blogs do have *some* financial means (in contrast to the type of poverty Anne is referring to)—-they have internet access, cameras, and time to write about their lives and activities.  Of course this isn’t a hit against these blogging moms, but for readers who are struggling on a plane that many of us can’t relate to, I’m sure some of those enviously beautiful posts can be a bit discouraging.

Peace,
Laura

ae,

I’ve worked at a crisis pregnancy center like yours and found the approach so passive it did not even offer women everything they needed.  I still agree more with the other philosophy.  No one is turned away or forced to listen about Jesus.  Women are given everything they need including education in many non-religious topics: bible study is optional.
Most of the women coming to you do not have any idea what a healthy relationship is or that they do not need to keep having sex with men who do not support them.  What a gift it is to offer them a tangible means to learn and provide for their baby.

This is so incredibly right-on.  I have an aunt with money who always forced you to do religious things if you wanted to participate in anything she was offering.  It utterly turned me off.  In fact, I worry that much of my beef with Catholicism is rooted in my early experiences with this woman.

Anna, I’m not at all “insisting” that making minor children pray is like making poor people pray.  I’m sincerely asking about how best to do family prayer, without creating that same feeling of coercion Simcha’s describing.  It seems to me some sensitivity is called for.  Personally, I resented certain types of prying into my spiritual life by my parents, but not all types.  E.g., I didn’t object to being expected to go to confession every month or whatever, but I did feel invaded if my parents started telling me what to confess (not that they usually did that).  I think there was some justice to that resentment.  And I don’t think prayer and spirituality are just like all the things parents tell their kids to do.  E.g., I may not have liked eating my zucchini, but I didn’t have the same feeling of resentment and infringement about it that I’m talking about.

@augusta I sincerely admire the mothers of large families and the cutting back, sometimes in major ways, that must be done. What I am talking about is abject poverty rather than poverty. St. Francis DeSales makes the distinction well. Poverty of a religious who gives up worldly goods for their vocation is living in poverty. St. Francis says that this type of chosen poverty is admirable and can even possibly be admired by others. I imagine the amazing Catholic parents who are faithful to their calling and have a large family and made financial sacrifices can truly be said to live in this type of poverty. They are heroes and the saints of our times. St. Francis goes on to say there is another type of poverty or suffering called “abject poverty.” This is not chosen or forseen but comes without any rhyme or reason…husband is totally disabled, home is foreclosed,  catastrophic financial situation,you live in a country like Somalia or another third world country etc. He says this type of abject poverty is often considered shameful. In our country it is often hidden. It means traveling on a city bus with your dirty laundry in a hamper to get to the laundromat with your children because you don’t have a washer or dryer. It means walking the several blocks to a little not very nice playground because your landlord does not want your noisy kids playing on the grass in front of the two family duplex you are renting…he is on one side, you are on the other. And no you can’t move because a security deposit, first and last months rent in advance is beyond your means. And besides a credit check would make it very hard to find a new place !  It means just going to the local grocery where the produce isn’t very fresh or varied rather than Costco which is fifteen miles away. Without a car, it wouldn’t be worth going on the bus and managing your children and trying to carry the large boxes home. It means waiting at the library to use the computers.
All I wanted to say is I would like to see a Catholic blog for those who are in abject poverty right now.  It would be so very inspiring and encouraging. I simply have never seen a blog for those in abject poverty!
Sorry, again. I did not at all intend to hurt anyone. I truly admire you Augusta and all Catholic parents whether wealthy, middle income, those in poverty, and those in abject poverty. We are living counter to the prevailing culture…a very hard road indeed.

AMEN. :-)

Anne, what a good explanation of where you are coming from.  I work in a place that provides extensive social services and connects people to resources.  It is hard for me to understand how some families do not get connected and helped here in America.  In many countries there is no gov’t support.

ARM…I struggle with this very issue.  I am Lutheran, and my boys absolutely hate church.  I really don’t know if I am doing more harm than good.  Your descriptions of not minding going to confession but resisting further input from parents is very helpful.

Momofthree - Another thought, this time from my husband.  He thinks it would have made all the difference if he’d ever come across his parents praying without him.  Since they never did, praying came off as something they made him do because it was “good for him” rather than something they did because it was good simply.

ARM, sorry, I didn’t mean to brush off your question of how best to teach your kids to pray so that eventually it comes from them rather than from outside force.  There just seemed to be a number of comments asking how insisting that one’s kids pray with the family is different from insisting that the poor pray before getting help.  And having run into comboxers before of the “new atheist” type who insist that teaching kids a religion is tantamount to child abuse… anyway, I’ll try to remove previous experiences from this discussion.  :-)
In my own experience, praying was just something my family did.  It was expected, but didn’t feel more forced than anything else we “just did.”  I agree that my parents telling me what to confess would have felt hugely intrusive.  I think, again from my experience, that much of our lack of resistance as we got older was due to my parents not making us do prayers that were beyond our abilities as young kids.  We didn’t have to sit through lengthy prayers/holy hours/devotions/whatever that were way beyond a young child’s normal attention span.  We could change and expand things as we got older, but we hadn’t learned to hate prayer time as babies.  For example, with my own kids (who are 4 and 2), we don’t aim for a family rosary.  We say one decade and that seems to be about all they can do (and some nights we figure it’s prudent to skip even that and just do our brief, informal night prayers), and even then they aren’t exactly silent and perfectly still even for those few minutes.  My husband and I have our own things we do (dh says the rosary and goes to daily Mass, I get there on my own once a week, dh and I say evening prayer together, I fit in a short prayer time of my own at the kids’ nap time), but we don’t try to have our little ones fit into our adult spiritual practices.  This is just my own experience; different devotions work for different families, but maybe that could be a piece of teaching kids to really pray: recognizing that a child’s spirituality should grow over time, rather than trying to make them do it *all* early and often.

I worked with the Missionaries of Charity in Kolkata, and they always say grace before and after meals. It is just part of their day though…not something they force on anyone.

I LOVE this post. Thank you!

Were you forced to pray? That would be inappropriate. But if it was voluntary prayer, then make a choice. And if you didn’t want to get your food from that source, then choose a secular source. Gotta love choice.

Good thing you’ve got the Internet now to vent, and I’m assuming food to eat!

As for rich people? I think they’re asked to pray sometime, too. Can’t you imagine that they’d have a situation or two when they felt uncomfortable in a group praying when they didn’t really want to?

I did a Social Work internship at a Catholic homeless shelter. We had daily Mass there. On of the managers, when giving the orientation talk to new residents, would tell them they were welcome at Mass, but did not have to attend. He would say we are here to serve you, not save you. I think his statement was very appropriate.

I was briefly involved with the St. Vincent de Paul Society when I lived in the United Kingdom. It was very different from the US.

Members would go out before dawn and find homeless men and women. The members would give the poor breakfast, but they would also sit with them, talk with them, pray with them, and tell them about Gospel.

Maybe it was because the UK has a stronger social (i.e material) safety net, but the emphasis was on feeding the poor’s souls, not their bodies.

They never forced anyone to pray, but they understood that the worst part of being homeless is the loneliness. Hunger is bad, but having people ignore you, avoid you, and lie to you everyday is far worse.

Many of the poor were receptive to the Gospel. They understood more than most that real poverty is spiritual, not physical. When Harvard asked Mother Theresa to tell their students about poverty, she said:

“Homelessness is not a lack of a home made of bricks, but the feeling of being rejected, being unwanted, having no one to call your own.”

Being forced to pray for food is humiliating and it is dehumanizing. We pray for spiritual bread not earthly bread. Nevertheless, it is the spiritual bread we need the most.

How were you “made to pray”?  After reading your article I got the impression that there was one person or a group of volunteers leading a public prayer before the doors were opened.  Now, if they were not allowing you to enter because they didn’t see your lips moving or your eyes closed during the prayer, that would be demeaning.  Though, obviously, humiliation is a personal feeling and I can’t argue with your personal feeling.  In general, though, I don’t think something like you described should be avoided.  My parish prays befores every activity I’ve ever attended.  I’m pretty sure they even pray before the live auction/dinner they hold every year that the rich people attend. 

When I was a child I witnessed my father give a homeless man a 20 dollar bill outside of a Burger King.  He dangled the bill infront of his face and said, “I’ll give you this, but only if I see you go inside and buy something to eat with it.”  My father then gave the man the bill and watched while he shuffled inside to buy a burger or something.  It was demeaning, humiliating and disgusting.  If my father had handed the man the money while vocalizing a short prayer such as, “Bless this man, and all this money provides him”, it would have been beautiful, not humiliating.

Anna - Thanks a lot for your suggestions.  I’m sure you’re right that age-appropriateness would help a lot.  I never minded a decade, but I hated a whole family rosary.  Another thing that would have helped would have been less arbitrariness in timing.  My dad tended to just announce without warning that we were now doing family prayer X, right now, this minute.  If there had been set times, or at least some advance warning, I would have felt a lot less pushed around, I think.  I hated the feeling of “You drop what you’re doing this instant because I’ve decided we’re praying.”

Criticism is good….if followed by an alternative….if the outreach is true….then how would you do…the work of spreading the Good News????
Find a better way fund it yourself.. and give it a go… if you are satisfied with the results.. then keep doing it… I belive that is what others are doing…..By the way when was the last time you did an out reach of any kind…professing your love of Jesus in act and or deed????
Give it a go the Holy Spirit just might give you a plesant suprise.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink—-you can make a person pray, say the words, but you can’t make it heart and soul felt; that comes from within. I too, at one juncture in my life had to stnnd in line for ‘free food’. Yeah, right free. The dignity I lost was free; the tears I held back until I was out of sight were free; the looks bordering on contempt from the good souls who were handing out the food were free; and the love and praise I gave to God for leading me to that food for my children were given freely.
I passed that juncture, but hold it in a corner of my heart and keep a small candle in front of it, burning all the time, lest I forget what it can be like to be ‘the least of my brethern’. I give when I can and sometimes when I can’t; it’s not what I give that matters nearly as much as how I give, at least to me.
I generally give in a quiet, unassuming way (I hope). I tend to give one on one and not to a nameless entity. If someone needs a ride, I give it. If someone need some milk I will buy it for them.
If I see someone in the heat working and stopping frequently and wiping the sweat from their face, I will bring them an ice cold bottle of water of gator aide and a wet rag and not take no for an answer.
It hurts my soul when I hear the pride in peoples voice about what they did for ‘them’ without realizing that it was Him they were tending to.

The description Anne wrote above of the different types of poverty was thought provoking for me.  She described abject poverty as, “It means traveling on a city bus with your dirty laundry in a hamper to get to the laundromat…walking the several blocks to a little not very nice playground because your landlord does not want your noisy kids playing on the grass….And no you can’t move because a security deposit, first and last months rent in advance is beyond your means. And besides a credit check would make it very hard to find a new place !  It means just going to the local grocery where the produce isn’t very fresh or varied…. Without a car, it wouldn’t be worth going on the bus…. It means waiting at the library to use the computers.”

There is a distinct difference between what you describe as abject poverty in America and what it is in Third World Countries.  Millions in the world would consider public transportation, a roof over their heads, clothes to wash, a playground to walk to and access to a computer as heaven on earth.  Not to mention a place you can go to that provides food for very little—food that includes ice cream and produce and a box of crackers!!!  They say a prayer before you enter…is it really that devastating?

It appears to me that most of those living in abject poverty in America are different than the rest of the world’s poor.  There are different expectations.  Thinking about how the rest of the world lives makes me see things another way.  Is someone praying really that bad?  Simcha still has not clarified how it is the prayer was forced—so I’m not sure what she means by that.

As single person I lived for 4 years with out a TV or car and no health insurance with an income that would be considered the poverty level in America.  I never felt that I was poor for a second.  Granted it would have been harder having chilren during that time but I chose to wait to get married so that I could offer them stability.  We do have choices in America…

@Anne I do know such mothers as well, Catholics, in abject poverty.  These are usually very young, possibly have not completed high school, and boyfriends refused to support them in their wish to let their child be born.  I have known their lives and needs intimately.  Their struggle is such that they have not adequate skills to be able to write and publish a blog.  However that does not mean by any stretch that they have nothing to tell us, nothing to share, no photographs of great beauty or stories of spiritual anxiety, triumph or struggle.  Occasionally people appear who wish to tell their story for them, to report, or to persuade, however that is a fly by night sort of thing, doesn’t allow for friendship and relationship, can be easily misrepresented, is fickle, doesn’t follow up and cares not for their ultimate well being or the well being of their families. 
Many Catholic mothers with spouse but few to no extras in the world seem to be struggling not very far removed from the crisis situation.  Able to pay rent and food but little else, stretching as far as one can imagine.  But not discouraged, not without joy for lack of possessions though perhaps sometimes on the tired side, on the anxious side.
For all of these moms, if you wish to help them to blog (and it is a very good idea) then there could be ways to arrange that.  A blog would be an extra, an extra in terms of not just finances but time, and for some moms, beyond their means because of lack of educational opportunity.  Perhaps an internet cafe with some skills or assistance, childcare, a meal or cup of coffee, would be a possibility.  Some parishes open cafes, in many places in the world, open for people to gather and meet in friendship.  This could be a little apostolate consistent with those outreaches.

Beth, I agree - pretty hilarious definition of “abject poverty.”  By that standard, pretty much anybody who doesn’t own their own house is in abject poverty - including me, for my whole adult life.  Which is absurd. (And by the way, Anne, even we “abject poor” can make a nice dinner and set a pretty table for it!  What that takes is caring, not money.) Anyway, what’s with telling Simcha the church had every right to make her pray?  Let’s say they have the “right” to, if you insist.  Still, why would they want to?  She’s giving first-person testimony as someone who’s been there that such forced prayer creates resentment, not piety, even in somebody who believes in prayer already.  Why would you WANT to do that?

There are so many important conversations, here! Thanks again, Simcha, for your wonderful, insightful writing that began it.
I am not poor, but I feel poor currently. My husband is unemployed, has been severely “underemployed” for the past year. By third world standards we still live like royalty. We still have nice clothing, and I have a diamond wedding ring, and until we foreclose, we have a house. We might file bankruptcy, but we will carry on.

We have accepted governmental assistance - including food stamps. Should I be required to sell my wedding ring first? Should I wear torn clothing to “prove” that I need help right now? Conditional charity is just not right. It is extremely humbling to ask for help. A woman I know, with three young children, had her heat shut off last winter. She and her husband are active members of our parish, and many don’t know (you can’t tell by looking at them - or us) that they are in great need. Her husband asked for help from the church, and was told he wouldn’t get any help unless he quit smoking. He has struggled with this for years, and yes, he knows he should quit. So his family can’t be helped because of it?

Don’t judge the needy. And don’t judge neediness. If the woman ahead of you is well dressed, and wearing a diamond wedding ring, and using food stamps, she may also be without heat and about to lose her home. If she is buying better ice cream than you do, because you are frugal and buy the store brand, don’t be angry. If she is using food stamps her life definitely sucks in a some major way, and she deserves that small choice.

@ARM
Wow.  I cannot believe how rude you are. Yes, there is of course a distinction between being poor in American and being poor in a Third World Country, but it does not make the American not poor.  Just because somebody has it worse does not mean you don’t have it bad.

You said “pretty hilarious definition of ‘abject poverty’.  By that standard, pretty much anyone who doesn’t own a house is in abject poverty.”  That is not what Anne said.  Not owning the house you live in is different from feeling outcasted because of the different situations Anne described above.  And how dare you say they are hilarious? They are not.  It is shaming to have to walk across town to take a shower at someone else’s house because your parents couldn’t afford the bills that month.  It’s shaming to live in a basement and have to leave when the landlord comes over because your parents can’t afford rent anymore and the landlord doesn’t know you are there.  We were still safe. We were still together.  But if someone had known, it would have been awful.  And you called it hilarious.

@ARM: “Beth, I agree - pretty hilarious definition of ‘abject poverty.’”

Very compassionate of you. Perhaps my friend with Crohn’s Disease would also fit your definition of hilarious. Sure, she’s an adult and was able to complete her education, keep all of her limbs, and is able to work. However, she will be on meds that greatly increase her risk for developing cancer for the rest of her life, not to mention that she will probably have to have her colon removed at some point, as did another friend with Crohn’s. But hey, they’re not bedridden. Hilarious.

No, what I thought was hilarious was the assumption that not having your own laundry room and fenced yard for the kids to play in was “abject poverty” - sure, I’d like to have those things some day, but nothaving them is hardly grinding poverty.  Perhaps that’s rude, but I said it because I thought the original bitter comment about how offensive all those overprivileged Catholic mommy bloggers are, was rude.  If that’s what “poverty” means, I suspect most of these ladies she’s griping about have shared it (or do still).

The whole “How can you say you’re hungry when there are children starving in Africa?” line of commentary (whether you’re talking about poverty, or health, or whatever) never turns out well for anyone.  Reminded me of this:  http://swistle.blogspot.com/2011/07/giant-internet-hand-of-spanking.html

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ARM, I believe you misunderstood what Anne was getting at.  She was simply saying that it’s easy to get the impression that all Catholics lead lovely lives, and since poor (“abjectly” poor or otherwise) people don’t, it can make them feel even crummier about their lives than they already do—as if polished hardwood floors, elaborate devotional gardens, and expensive family pilgrimages are an essential part of Catholic life. 

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I can sympathize, and often have to remind myself that people take photos of, and publicize, the pretty and successful areas of their life, because that’s what they’re proud of.  There is nothing wrong with that, and I don’t believe the commenter said there was anything wrong with it, either.  It would be nice, however, to have a more balanced picture of the wide variety of what actually goes on in Catholic life. 

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I think you read something in Anne’s comment that I know I did not.  When I read it, I pictured trying to take a full laundry basket onto one of Pittsburgh’s buses, where often it is standing room only and miserable.  I pictured the playground as one where a mother or father cannot be sure that their child or children are safe playing there..is there broken glass on the ground? Do they need to worry about feces (human or animal) in the sandbox if there even is a sandbox?  Is it broken and vandalized? Etc.  I read desperation.  I heard a landlord that treats you like garbage, especially because he knows he can, that you’re not going anywhere because you can’t afford it, you can barely afford what he has to offer, which often includes water running down the walls or mold.  Also, if one to going into that circumstance after not ever experiencing it before, that would be terrible.  It would be grinding.  Show some compassion.

And please don’t forget that when Christ said “Man does not live by bread alone,” He was not saying it to a poor person.  He was saying it to the devil, who was trying to tempt him in the wilderness (Luke ch. 4)

When confronted with the hungry and poor, Jesus fed them.  And although He may have prayed over the bread before he broke it, I doubt he made the masses pray before he fed them.

@In defense of ARM.  ARM was directing that hilarious line to Beth, who seems to believe poverty isn’t that bad.  And kicking the impoverished while they’re down isn’t wrong because it’s not a physical kick.  And besides, as Beth points out, they’re only American poor, which isn’t really that poor.  Why, poverty in America is just an opportunity to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, like she and Abe Lincoln did!  Oh, see how she wisely put off having kids until she could afford them!  If only all the so called poor in America could make choices like the ones she and Abe Lincoln made we wouldn’t even have any poor people to scold.

The giant spanking hand of Abraham Lincoln!  That’s even worse!

But my apologies if I lost track of who said what.  My two-year-old woke up at 2:30 crying because she left her toy ladybug in the car, and that was the end of the night for me.

Simcha- now I have a mental image of the fish-slapping dance from Monty Python, except the slapping is done with Abe Lincoln instead. Thank you for that.

I am sorry to see the way some of the comments are directed at my response.  Eileen-yours was particularly sacrastic and bitter.  First, I did not tell Simcha the church had a right to make her pray.  I asked how saying a prayer before opening a building is forcing someone to pray. Show up 5 minutes late if you are that offended by the prayer.  I don’t believe this is kicking anyone while they are down.  It was taken from Simcha’s perspective and we all know from “the internet hand of spanking” link posted that everyone on the internet has a different perspective. Simcha thinks I’m spanking her and I think she is spanking the praying Christians.  I’m not insisting that I am right. I am offering a different opinion.

I did not say it was hilarious to be poor.  Just that I don’t believe Anne’s definition of abject poverty is correct.  Still, it is hard to live at what is considered the poverty level in America.  The years I did I never once thought I was entitled to a TV, cable, internet, car, washing machine or that people who gave to me had to do it on my terms.  I was not bitter.  I felt I had choices.  I was grateful to go to the library and take advantage of free services.  I was glad I could ride my 10 yr old bike to where I needed to go.  It was not easy and it was not hilarious.  I just never considered myself to be lacking.  If you have a different experience I have compassion for you.  I don’t expect everyone to have the same experience and I am sorry life has been so hard.

I’m not Abe Lincoln and I am not scolding anyone.  I am only adding to this conversion that we all have choices to make.  Even when life throws us curve balls and we have unexpected events we have choices.  We have a gov’t that provides us assistance when we need it and we have communities that provide help.  We can gripe about how they are not doing it the right way or we can be grateful that someone cares enough to do it.

As for the dad who family’s heat got shut off but he continued smoking.  There are resources available for people to help them stop smoking.  I do struggle (internally) when the people I work with tell me that they can’t afford food or their medications but they are smoking 2 packs of cigarettes per day to the cost of at least $300 per month.  Yet, no one is ever denied anything or treated differently because someone in the facility disagrees with their choices.  The government does not ask that anyone change or make good choices.  Young adults on gov’t assistance come in with numerous tatoos, body piercings, high tech phones etc and they get what they need without anyone asking them to change or prioritze their medications over their next body piercing.  Do they deserve that choice because their life sucks? Do we scrutinize their choices but not the choices of Catholics because we agree with their choices?  I’m not sure if all the comments about the poor are directed towards the Catholic poor or all the poor in America.

Thanks Simcha, I agree. 

For a little while, we used to get discounted grocery boxes through an Angel Food distribution center nearby (a protestant church).  Thankfully, this group was always just cheerful and never required anything other than my payment and a signature!  (The food wasn’t free but it was deeply discounted.)  Although they included a religious pamphlet in with the food, no one was ever pushy or even asked us if we were Christian.  It was a relief because I knew that might be a possibility when I signed up.  (We’re Catholic, I just don’t like being backed into a corner in which I feel I have to justify our beliefs.)

PIMEEDITOR—I know what you’re saying. My husband has been unemployed & underemployed prior to our marriage and still is. In fact, he’s 3 months into lay off #2 right now. But people see our newer cars, nice house, my diamond ring, etc. and think “Oh, they must be doing OK! Why are they saying they have no money or can’t do things because of money??” While it’s no one’s business, everything is paid off. Beside our mortgage, we have no debt. This is good. The secret is…very few people know that my husband was almost killed in an accident and received money as a result of a settlement. Even so, that doesn’t cover everything in life! When you combine a bad economy, a career path that gets no funding/respect (nonprofit social services), certain fields being off-limits b/c of injuries, and holes in employment history due to layoffs and accidents, you’re left with…not much. He still needs to work and WANTS to work! We can pay our bills and put food on the table, but that’s about it. I don’t consider us poor, no way! Limited? Yes. Thankfully I have always worked, and will probably always have to work because of these unavoidable life circumstances. We don’t have children now, but I fear for what will happen when we do, only because I won’t be the mother I want to be. (Not to mention bedrest while working fears…) Hopefully I can be the mother I NEED to be. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that not everyone who is struggling looks it. Besides, there’s a millionaire in my hometown who wore old clothes and drove around in a beat-up station wagon. You’d never know it ;-)

If any food pantry or soup kitchen receives a penny from the government, the time for praying is before the door opens. I volunteered at a Baptist-run food pantry for several years and they held their prayers before the doors were open. No volunteer was expected to or even encouraged (quite the opposite!) to gather the food recipient by the arm and say, “Let’s pray about your situation “... and ending the prayer by handing out a church brochure and say, “Hey, it’d be great to see you this Sunday.”)
  Completely verboten! BUT, within today’s more loosey goosey Evangelical settings where aggressive soul-winning by ever stalwart “prayer warriors” is encouraged, there’ll be some moments where an errant knight in causual clothes helping somebody carry his/her groceries out to the parking lot will to borrow from a prominent Tea Party senatorial candidate, “resort to using the ‘First Amendment solution’” in combatting the devil in his or her zeal to win both souls AND fill pews.
  I guess we can call it “entreprenurial Christianity.”

Once in awhile, my family participates in a Community Meal program that is hosted by various churches. When it’s our parish’s turn, we prepare food, then arrive at the meal site to serve the food. This event always begins with a prayer. Now, from your post, I get the impression that maybe in your experience you were forced to participate in the prayer vocally. That isn’t the case here. Someone from the group bringing and serving the food offers a prayer, a blessing before the meal but including anything else they might want to add.

At all the meals I’ve served at, the tone of the prayer is always inclusive. Meaning, the prayer is not offered only on behalf of the poor people receiving the food, but for all of us, with our weaknesses, struggles, and failures, as well as giving thanks for what we are all grateful for. I’d venture to say that that prayer—no matter who offers it or what they say—has a lot to do with the atmosphere that ensues afterward: a kind of comraderie and even festive “we’re all in this together” feeling in which it is very clear that we just happen to be bringing food that night, but could ourselves at any time be standing in the food line. There is a feeling of friendship, of simply sharing a meal together, that doesn’t feel any different than if you happened to be at my house for dinner.

So, maybe my experience is different from yours. It would certainly be off-putting and humiliating to be forced to pray to receive a plate of food. But I just wanted to share that in my experience, it is the prayer before the meal that erases the line between the givers and the recipients.

Wow. Reading more back more carefully, I feel distressed at all the criticism leveled toward Beth. Beth, your posts have actually inspired me to realize how lucky I am in so many ways. I have been poor, very poor at times, and now we live hand-to-mouth. And yet you’re right. We do have help available, we do have choices, and we are way, way better off than many people. And unless I missed something,I don’t see where Simcha has clarified the kind of prayer she referred to. Simcha, were you forced to personally say prayers, or were prayers simply offered? Do you say a blessing before meals even if you have non-Catholic friends over? There is a big difference between forcing someone to pray, and praying in their presence. I don’t know which you meant. My pastor often makes the point, when he is telling us about the importance of prayer, that there are many social service agencies, many places where people can receive food or other help, and I know this is true; I’m familiar with them. But how many of them offer a prayer?

I had the impression that most Christian charities do not require someone to pray in order to receive assistance.  But maybe this is more common than I realized.  I absolutely agree that we should help people, regardless of whether they want to pray, or whether they are even Christian.  Evangelizing them is fine, but making them feel like they have to listen to a sales pitch as a requirement for getting help is not fine.

All right, people keep asking if I were truly forced to pray at this food sale, so here’s what happened:  it was advertised as an opportunity to get low-cost food.  We all crowded into a small anteroom, and the organizer said, “Okay, before we open up the doors, let’s all bow our heads and thank God for this wonderful opportunity!” and then launched into a long ad libbed prayer where he exhorted Jesus to just make us just thankful and just help us to just remember how blessed we are. 

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No one was going person-to-person to check if our lips were moving, and no one was whacking us in the back of the legs to make us kneel—so no, I guess you could say that we weren’t being “made” to pray.  Nevertheless, it was unexpected and unnatural, it would have been rude and obtrusive to opt out, and it was abundantly clear that the organizers considered this the bare minimum that we owed them, before they would fold back the doors and let us buy their food. 

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I’ve already described what effect this treatment had on me, and I’ve already explained that I’m sure the organizers would be dismayed if they knew how their well-intentioned program was received by many in the group. 

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Another example of this sort of thing (which I cut out of the original post to make it shorter) was when I went to a crisis pregnancy center (again, run by Protestants) because I needed a written proof of pregnancy so I could sign up for state prenatal insurance.  I explained to the woman that I was not truly in a crisis, but was in a stable marriage, and simply needed help getting insurance.  I also offered to reimburse her for whatever the test cost.

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So she had me pee in a cup, put the cup in another room, took me into a smaller room, shut the door, and asked, “Do you have a Bible?  Do you read it?  How often?  How would you describe your relationship with God?  Are you satisfied with that relationship?” and so on.  Once I had answered all these questions to her satisfaction and she wrote them down on my chart, then she went back to do the pregnancy test.

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In this situation and in the first one I described, I certainly could have said, “You know, I don’t really feel comfortable sharing this with you right now—could you just help me out with my immediate physical need?”  But you have to remember that someone who is already asking for help from a stranger is not at her best—maybe not completely prepared to make a stand for dignity, but just wants to get out of there as quickly as possible, back to the world where you get treated the same as everyone else because nobody knows what your income level is.

I would like to make two observations.

First, I think that when we feed the poor in a group setting, we are giving them so much more than just food. Many poor people live in neighborhoods where there are hardly any “successful” people, no matter how you define success. One of our functions is to model good behavior and show them that successful people give and successful people pray. It’s the whole “give a man a fish…” thing. Poor people who don’t want to listen to the prayers are basically saying: “Shut up about the nets and the poles and hand over the fish right now!”

My second point is in response to Beth’s remarks about what constitutes poverty in our society. Throughout time and everywhere on the globe poverty has simply meant not having the necessities of life. Poverty meant hunger, cold, lack of clothes, inadequate shelter and no medical care. But for the most part in our society now, only those afflicted with serious mental illness or addictions fall under the traditional definition of poverty.  Our current re-definition of poverty no longer makes reference to actual neediness but is based on “income inequality” or “relative deprivation.” Being at the bottom is hard, but the fact is that (with the exception of the insane and the addicted) most (not all but most) of the people that we count as poor would be counted as middle class at any other time in history and in many other parts of the world. “Poverty” doesn’t mean what it used to mean. This makes it hard for us to have a real discussion about it and we should be mindful of that.

We have been commanded to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and welcome the refugee. But what about those who are tired of eating beans and wearing old clothes and don’t like living in their country as much as they like living in ours? I certainly agree that we should feed them but I don’t think it’s a problem if we ask them to pray with us before we pass out the food.

Hi Simcha, I know what it is like to have to beg for what you need for your kids. I had to beg St. Vincent DePaul for a hot water heater in the middle of winter and for food and for utility payments. (It was the Lutherans who finally helped me out.)
My Dad always said that whoever paid the piper called the tune. That meant if someone else was paying your way, you were obliged to listen to them.
Remembering this saying made it easier for me to be humble. I felt that humility was the only appropriate attitude. I listened with humility to what people told me during those hard days and I am better for it.
Actually I think that it is exactly this that makes private charity superior to government welfare. The government doesn’t lecture so no one learns. People walk out of the government welfare office with an attitude of entitlement. I can testify that no one walks out of St Vinnie’s with an attitude of entitlement!
I am grateful for the gifts of the spirit I received while getting the material gifts.

@Tiffanie:  I understand what you’re saying, but let me explain:  I’m not protesting that poor people should get what they want for nothing.  If these folks had required us to clean bathrooms or wash windows in exchange for a chance to buy cheap food, I would have done it, and been glad of the chance, and that would have been that.  I have no problem with earning what you need.  What I protest is requesting a spiritual experience as “payment” for charity.

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I also agree with you that it’s possible to receive gifts of the Holy Spirit from an experience like the one I described.  From those days, I learned something truly valuable: that when I am in the position of helping someone else, it should be with fear and trembling, and gratitude before God that I’m in a position to help, rather than needing help.  When I have the chance to help someone these days, I remember what I learned and try to behave accordingly.  Maybe you and I just needed to hear different lessons from the Holy Spirit when we were going through those hard times.

I am also intrigued by the suggestion, made by a few commenters, that poor people can learn how to pray as the first step toward self-sufficience.  I wish we had known which was the right prayer to pray at the time, when my husband’s software company closed his branch, he was laid off, we lost our insurance, and ran out of savings.  Boy, is my face red!  I totally missed the part in the Gospel where Christ said you can tell how holy a person is by how much money he has.

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I also feel ridiculous having called our family “poor” when our only real problem was that we had nothing to eat but half a box of cereal in the house.  Geez, what a first world whiner.  Next time my stomach feels that empty, I’ll just think about Africa, and that will make me not-poor.  Thanks for the tips, guys!

Thanks for the further explanation Simcha regarding prayer and the experience at the pregnancy center.  I too have been in situations where I was in need and felt humiliated by the way the helpers responded. I have even been in situations where people were praying and I did not want to.  I doubt you can speak for everyone that was present or know exactly what was in the hearts of those christians but that does not invalidate your feelings.  It stinks to be in vulnerable places and need help.  I’ve been there too many times.  In my own family my siblings bring up instances where they felt hurt/neglected/humiliated and we all have a different perspective on it.  The same goes with my kids but I still validate feelings where they are at.  I’m assuming you write because you want your feelings validated and want to make people aware of what it feels like to be in need.  But also that you know there will be different opinions and experiences as well.

Your comments often come across as bitter.  Nathan describes poverty as a lack of clothes, food, no shelter, no medical care.  So yes food insecurity is poverty.  No one is denying that.  And yes we all have a right to recognize that which is difficult in our lives without feeling like we need to reference Africa.

Thank you Missy for your comment.  I thought the responses were unusual and definitely not ones that created dialogue. Simcha jumped right on that Abe Lincoln reference to my experience.  It was obnoxious but from what I read that is her style sometimes. 

I like the topics of how we should help the poor.  Especially from those in need themselves.  Someone angrily mentioned the man who was denied money from his church because he was asked to quit smoking.  If my family were going without heat I can’t imagine not giving something like that up.  I think there are times when people who need assistance do not help themselves and are capable of it.  But yet all the anger is on the church that did not give,  not on the man chosing to smoke instead of providing heat to his family.
It is discouraging when you see people who use the food pantry because it opens up money for them to continue smoking and drinking (excessively).  At some point it is ok to have expectations for people.  I know this needs to be carefully weighed.  As I said above I think a crisis pregnancy center should not only provide for the material goods but also the other needs.  Most women who go are not in a stable, loving marriage like Simcha and they need more than just baby clothes and a pregnancy test.

Nathan- If you think that hunger, lack of shelter, and lack of clothes and lack of medical care don’t exist in America except amongst those with mental health issues, then you haven’t really seen all of America.

Simcha, The part about your story that made me sad was that you had no family, friends or church community that knew you were going thru such hard times. You were pregnant and hungry and they didn’t knock your door down with food?  You mentioned you went to a Catholic college with a tight knit community and built friendships and grew up in a catholic family.  It just seems like pieces of the puzzle were missing there and perhaps made you feel more alone.

@Beth, I’m not sure what your question has to do with the rest of the discussion here.  Can you clarify?

Yes, I can clarify.  Your article was about the time in your life you were poor and did not have enough food. This topic was how we love and serve the poor and the best way to meet their needs.  Here you gave examples of 2 times where you felt the people that served you made you feel bad.  I wondered why you would be without food with the information you have shared in previous posts.  Specifically, going to a Catholic college with a close knit community and marrying soon after college, growing up in a Catholic family and being deeply involved in your faith which usually means being connected to a community of believers.  Family and our friends are the primary source of help and can be easier to turn to when we are in vulnerable places.  It is not that I think Catholics can’t go thru bad times or be poor.

I think of my parents, my in laws, my siblings, my friends and I believe if they knew I was pregnant and hungry they would provide me with adequate food and I am not even from a close knit family.  You said you only had 1/2 box of cereal in your home and you were hungry and had to obtain food from a place that you felt humiliated you.  It was sad.  I didn;t re-read I may have gotten those details wrong.

Do you think it helps people in difficult situations like this if they are deeply connected to their friends and family?  I know I make an assumption there but from what you write it seems like you were very alone and desperate.  How does our Catholic community an family fit into this picture?

Beth, I think you’re misunderstanding.  The post wasn’t about me and the time in my life that I was poor—it was about something I learned while I was in that situation. The point I’m trying to make—that the word of God isn’t something that should be endured for the sake of getting food—wouldn’t change no matter how many details of my personal life from ten years ago you learn.

I believe Beth is simply lamenting the fact that you were subjected to Evangelical Protestant proselytizing in the quest for food for your family because it means that your Catholic family and friends failed you.

It is not the case that they failed me—in fact, weeks after the even I described, my entire family went to live with my parents, who fed and sheltered us with great generosity as soon as we asked them to. 

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Sometimes people are poor and it’s not anyone’s fault.  That’s why I bristled at Beth’s comments:  they all seemed to point to the idea that someone is at fault when people are hungry.  I know that Beth stated that that’s not what she was saying, but her comments first implied that people should make better choices or be more prudent, and then that family and friends should have stepped in.  Life doesn’t always follow a flow chart:  if you’re in situation A, then do B.  It just doesn’t work that way. 

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@Beth, if I ascribed motives to you which weren’t there, I apologize.  I reread your comments and thought they all had a common thread— one which distracted from the main point I was trying to make—so that’s what I’m responding to.  No hard feelings.  I understand that I’m the one who furnished details of my private life, so maybe it made sense to ask for more information; but my point was that my main idea is valid no matter what the surrounding details are.

I’m bothering to comment because I don’t want anyone to think that my family and friends turned their backs on us.  Beyond that, I’d just as soon drop the discussion of what happened to us ten years ago.

To get back on point, I agree with your criticism, but it’s a bit out of place on this blog because it’s almost universally Evangelical Protestant practice. The prayers with which you were so uncomfortable were probably actually a sermon directed at you, disguised with 20 to 30 addresses to “Father God” or “Lord Jesus”. It’s not in the Catholic spirituality to be so overt; if anything, sometimes we tend toward the extreme of the Georgetown Jesuits. But all the Catholic charities I’ve dealt with (like yourself, on both ends) have taken the examples of St. Francis and Mother Teresa to heart.

@Tony:  yup, that’s a good point.  Where it becomes relevant is when, for instance, a Catholic wants to volunteer at some charity which happens to be Evangelical Protestant,and follows in this mode.  (In some areas, the only organized charities are run by Protestants, and Catholics must decide if they want to participate in something which does good, but runs contrary to their conscience in other ways.  One crisis pregnancy center in my home town, for instance, required volunteers to sign a statement of faith which contained some heresies—and many Catholic women just shrugged and signed.)

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Also, when we are being charitable on a more personal basis, and not necessarily representing a particular faith, I think it’s useful for people to hear what it’s like from the recipient’s point of view.  Catholic institutions may be better at following Francis or Mother Theresa, but individual Catholics—not necessarily.

When I hand out water and oatmeal cream pies to the homeless I run across they get a small Divine Mercy holy card or some other holy card. That is how I connect the spiritual work of mercy to the Catholic Church.

Thanks Simcha for taking the time to respond.  My view of the subject being discussed was much wider than what you said so I felt it all fit together.  I understood your main point but there were also many statements you made that left room for discussion.  We have do have different beliefs about the poor and what it is like to be poor and whether or not poor people have choices or if they can influence their situation in some way.  I don’t believe poor people are victims who could have done nothing to prevent the situation.  But I understand that we disagree and that is ok.  Our hearts are both looking for the best way to serve the poor and it is good to learn from someone who has been in situations where you have been.

Hi Simcha, I really do understand the type of poverty you experienced.  As a child, I and my four siblings attended a small Catholic school free of charge after our father abandoned our family.  Our family was routinely without electricity, phone service, gas, water, clean clothes, personal hygiene items, and food, although my mother worked very hard at her job.  We moved from rental to rental and had zero stability in our lives.  I remember the parish priest coming over with boxes of donated food and a couple of years where we were given wonderful Christmas presents.  The nuns and priests treated us with such love and compassion.  The other students and even the lay teachers (resentful of our free tuition) made us feel like dirt under their fingernails almost every day.  We could never have been grateful enough to satisfy them.  For them the charity needed to have strings attached to it: infinite gratitude and humiliation, never contradicting any slight, and never daring to outperform any other paying students.  I am grateful for the charity I received, but the treatment that went with it left a bitter place in my heart.  Twenty five years later my stomach clenched when I read your post, because it reminded me how easily I could find myself in that position yet again.  There is a difference between choosing to live frugally (or even experiencing being poor when you don’t have children relying on you) and having no control as your life is falling apart and worrying about how to keep your children fed.  Anyone who thinks people on welfare have it easy and the government is taking care of everyone has never been in the system.  It is a humiliating experience.  The only positive thing I can say about my childhood (which was barely a childhood at all) is that it showed me how important it is to give freely without expecting anything in return.  I would never make someone wait for me to help them while I led them in prayer.  That’s just tacky.  And no, you can’t walk out for the prayer and come back later.  The food would be gone.

@Jude:  thank you.  I understand that many poor people are truly to blame for their situation, and really have no desire to become self-sufficient.  But to those who think that ALL poor people fit that mold, I always think, “May you never find out the hard way how wrong you are.”

@Jude: You are so right about the way people treat the recipients of charity. I never really thought about it, but so much aid is given with strings attached, with the belief that the family really owes the giver now!  Which is exactly the opposite of how Christ gave and treated his recipients….if I do recall correctly.

Simcha, thank you for making these important points. While I’ve never been really, really poor I was uncomfortably close to the edge some years ago. I had lost my job and had taken a new one that paid barely half as much, and although it offered health insurance the premium was so high I couldn’t possibly afford it. My daughter was on Medicaid for two years, and she was also eligible for free school lunches. We had lots of debt and it was a struggle to pay off though we have finally been able, after 5 years, to accomplish this.

I would have to agree with Jude that perhaps the worst part of being poor or close to it is simply the feeling that you are helpless and that you have no options or choices. It also doesn’t help to beat yourself up, or listen to others beat you up, about what you “should have” done differently.

I get very irritated at times with people (mostly blogosphere commenters) who chastise single parents on public assistance, food stamps, etc. for having more children than they can afford. Yes, I realize that there are people out there who seem to be careless about having children out of wedlock, but that’s not my point. Maybe the children were born when the parents COULD “afford” them and things have gotten worse in the meantime?

If some of these “never have kids you can’t afford” people had their way, no one would ever marry or have children until they were absolutely certain that they would never get sick, lose a job or get in an accident at any time in the next 20 years. Were that the case, I guess a lot of us would not be here.

I read Tiffanie’s comment with interest.  Of all the issues with government assistance, it never occurred to me that they don’t lecture *enough*...I’m not saying there couldn’t be any truth to that, but I don’t believe a person on food stamps has ever been able to purchase alcohol or tobacco with them (although that can be gotten around; it’s not unheard of to sell them for cash), and if you’ve been keeping up lately there’s been talk of banning white potatoes and soda from acceptable items.  I understand trying to be the nudge toward healthful habits, but there are some who seem determined to suck any pleasure little by little out of people’s lives because they’re poor and on assistance.  It really does seem like kicking them when they’re down.
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The biggest issue with federal assistance as it seems to me is that it’s so facile to be generous with extorted money.  The urge to split hairs and pick nits is a begrudging public’s last vestige of control over the inevitability of the extortion.  When I’m in control, I am less critical.  The truth about authentic charity is that there is no way to earn it, and that’s what I thought was so humbling…

Simcha,  I don’t see how you were wronged in anyway.  I don’t understand what offended you.  Someone asking all to give thanks hardly seems unjust.  Perhaps you were too easily offended.  Poverty does bring certain humiliations.  What if you were to embrace those humiliations and hold faultless those who were offering to you their imperfect charity.  We often say “it is better to give than to receive”, but receiving does most often require of us a humble heart.  Wouldn’t it be ironic to find that the lord sent you to the food pantry to model charity instead of to receive it.

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Wow, this is amazing timing.  I work for a crisis pregnancy shelter (www.marysshelterva.org) and was confronted recently by a well-meaning Protestant guy who insisted that we institute a mandatory Bible Study for our ladies.  I politely tried to explain why we do not have such a thing and now wish I had had this article to whip out and show him.  I think because we are a Catholic organization, we instinctively do not force spirituality on our residents but choose to lead by example. You wrote quite clearly and succinctly what we have always felt, but have not always had the words to express. I just forwarded this to my little group of co-workers.  Thanks!

1. We “make” rich people pray all the time.  Haven’t you ever been to a graduation or public dinner or event of any kind that began with a prayer?  We “make” them pray just as much as the church folks “made” you pray; that is, custom obliges them to bend their heads and be quiet while somebody else prays.  This is a common expectation of all well-behaved people, rich or poor.
2. This article is very one-sided: it’s all about you and how you felt and - inexcusably - the assumptions you made about the motives of the people who had gone to a good deal of trouble to help you.  When trying to put a point of view it’s better to drop the me me me me thing.  It doesn’t make converts.
3. I’m going to be the dead mouse in the punchbowl and say it: beggars CAN’T be choosers.  It’s in the worst possible taste to criticize those who help one in need.  If my car breaks down and a stranger helps me, I would put myself beyond the pale to observe publicly that I was grateful for the ride but her car smelled funny or she had a yappy dog or (even) that she asked me to pray with her.  Need is need.  Help is help.  It’s hardly in the spirit of Christian charity to write that the people who helped you might have done a better job of it if they had arranged the event in a way that more perfectly accorded with your sensitivities.

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