I would be happy to have the sspx come back to the church and get regularized because the church needs strong traditional Catholics. There are too many liberals allowed to water down the faith and turn the church into nothing but a worker or social movement with very little on doctrine or morals. I don’t care for Bishop Williamson as he is too weird and overly scrupulous. I would not care it the too far right goes with Williamson somewhere and the rest of the sspx bishops come into the fold and start being given positions of power in the vatican to simmer down liberal thinking and to strengthen the church in the faith once again. Anything that makes the libs freak, I am in favor of.

This is an article which appears to be written by someone who is at enmity with the traditional Catholic faith.  Calling someone and idiot, let alone a Bishop is actually a mortal sin, as Our Lord has clearly stated in scriptures.  I really need not say anything else.  It’s clear to see….

I am an educated and faithful Catholic and know most of the history between the Catholic Church and SSPX, however, is there a timeline or a good objective historical outline on these matters that Catholics who are not familiar with this ordeal can read? I am wondering since I might write about this on my blog or at least tweet about it for my followers. Thanks!

Pat, you “affectionately” calling a bishop of the Church an “idiot” and “lunatic” is unacceptable,  especially one who is far more holy and brilliant than you know regardless certain matters you may not agree with or understand because you do not know him. Not only is this an unprofessional and reckless insult to a successor of the Apostles but Bishop Williamson as a person, his friends and all those who profess and live the Catholic Faith in continuity with Tradition. Of all the bishops, priests, religious and (un)Faithful who could merit such a description due their contribution to the post-conciliar crisis, why insult the very priestly society that was formed to put an end to the onslaught of heresy and scandal the Church has received since the Council, especially when the Pope and others in Rome are doing every they can to welcome the SSPX into regularization and fraternal communion? I’m not going to follow this thread, so don’t you (or anyone) waste any time responding to my comment. Just simply prayerfully reconsider some of the things you said and how you said it. Ask yourself how Christ-like you think it is while considering the outcome you were hoping for when you posted it. That’s all. God bless. Peace. T

while regularisation of the SSPX is something we should all hope for, I think it’s unfair to say that only ‘progressive forces’ will freak out, if they do at ll to any large scale. The ‘orthodox’ forces are equally capable of that. As you indicate, there are some in the SSPX who will not welcome any regularisation, and I wonder what dust they are capable of throwing up.

Bishop Williamson has never been “silenced” by the SSPX.  He distributes public messages every single week in the form of his “Eleison Comments.”  His superior has never corrected or disciplined him for any of his actions, and he has continued with his teaching, uninterrupted.  The SSPX hierarchy is on the same page.  An example of Bishop Williamson’s comments from a year ago is below: 

ELEISON COMMENTS CXCV (April 9, 2011) : NEWCHURCH,  NEWBLESSEDS.

On May 1, in a few weeks’  time, John-Paul II is due to be declared “Blessed” by Benedict XVI amidst great celebration in St. Peter’s Square in Rome. But Catholics clinging to Tradition know that John-Paul II, while being a great promoter of the Conciliar Church, was an effective destroyer of the Catholic Church. How then can he be called “Blessed”, the last step before being canonized, when Church canonizations are infallible ?  The swift answer is that John-Paul II will not be beatified as a Catholic Blessed by a Catholic beatification in the Catholic Church, but as a Newblessed by a Newbeatification in the Newchurch. And Newchurchmen are the first to claim novelty, the last to claim infallibility, for what they do.

Let us illustrate the nature of the Newchurch by a comparison drawn from modern life. Pure gasoline (petrol) smells, tastes and acts like gasoline. On it a car can run. Pure water smells, tastes and acts like water. On it a car cannot run. Gasoline mixed with surprisingly little water may still smell and taste like gasoline, but it no longer acts like gasoline——on it a car cannot run. The water has taken away its combustibility.

Pure gasoline is comparable to pure Catholicism - highly combustible !  Pure water in our comparison is like pure secular humanism, or the religion of globalism, with not a trace of Catholicism left in it. Now Catholicism and secular humanism were mixed together in the Second Vatican Council and in its 16 documents. So Conciliarism, or Newcatholicism, may still smell and taste like Catholicism, enough to make “good Catholics” expect Conciliar beatifications to be on their way to infallibility, as were beatifications in the pre-Conciliar Church, but in reality a small admixture of secular humanism has been enough to stop the Catholicism from functioning, just as it takes not too much water to stop gasoline from combusting.

Thus Newbeatifications may taste and smell to unwary Catholic nostrils like Catholic beatifications, but on closer examination it is clear that Newbeatifications are not at all the same reality. Famous example: a Catholic beatification used to require two distinct miracles, while a Newbeatification requires only one. And the rules for a Newbeatification are significantly relaxed in other ways as well. Therefore no Catholic should expect anything other than a Newblessed to emerge from a Newbeatification. John-Paul II was indeed a Conciliar “Blessed”.

What deceives Catholics is the elements of Catholicism that still remain in the Conciliar Church. But just as Vatican II was designed to replace Catholicism (pure gasoline) with Conciliarism (gasoline-water), so Conciliarism is designed to give way to - let us call it - the Global Religion (pure water). The procession is from God to Newgod to Nongod. Right now we still have Newrome pushing the Newgod of Vatican II with Newblesseds to match, but before long sheer criminals will be the “Blesseds” of the Nongod.
However, the true God will let no sheep be deceived that does not want to be deceived. Nor will he abandon any soul that has not first abandoned him, says St. Augustine. Marvellous quote ! 

                                                                        Kyrie eleison.

TBH, I think we have enough disobedient Catholics in the Church and we don’t need to invite more in.  We don’t counteract liberal dissent by adding conservative dissent to the mix.

But, I have faith that the Holy Father will deal with the response of the SSPX with wisdom, even if it is not the response I would personally like.

Hellhound for the grave sin of calling an idiot like Bishop Williamson an ‘idiot’? Seriously, guys? Williamson’s much worse than that. Pat’s filtering, out of charity no doubt.

Anyway, hope springs eternal of course, but regardless of the official response,  the Church doesn’t seem to be in danger of having a newly-regularized Bishop Williamson lurking in its aisles, lighting stink-bombs under the pews.

The comments about SSPX Bishop Williamson are very tame! His Holiness the Pope admitted in “Light of the World” that had Williamson’s views been known by him and the Vatican, the excommunication against him would not have been lifted.

La Profezia Degno Pastore (The Worthy Shepherd Prophecy)

By Blessed Tomasuccio de Foligno, 14th Century

“One from beyond the mountains shall become the Vicar Of God. Religious and clerics shall take part in this change.
Outside the true path, there will be only disreputable men; I shrug my shoulders when the Bark of Peter is in danger and there is no one to lend it help…The schismatic shall fall into the scorn of the Italian faithful…” By about twelve years shall the millennium have passed when the resplendent mantle of legitimate power shall emerge from the shadows where it was being kept by the schism. And beyond harm from the one who is blocking the door of salvation, for his deceitful schism shall have come to an end. And the mass of the faithful shall attach itself to the worthy Shepherd, who shall extricate each one from error and restore to the Church its beauty. He shall renew it.”

While I would like those the SSPX reunited, many of their teachings are borderline heretical and I do not know that coming back to the church would stop this. I am concerned that their underlying teaching will not change , even if reconciled with a premature status. They will never fully accept Rome, the Pope or the teachings of Vatican II.

Samantha: 

You write “While I would like those the SSPX reunited, many of their teachings are borderline heretical and I do not know that coming back to the church would stop this. I am concerned that their underlying teaching will not change , even if reconciled with a premature status. They will never fully accept Rome, the Pope or the teachings of Vatican II.”

What supposed teachings of the SSPX are “borderline heretical”?  As far as I know from my limited experience with the SSPX, what they believe and teach is the perennial Catholic doctrine and truths.  I’m curious, can you expand on your assertion?

Oops, one more comment!  Mr. Archbold, while I regularly enjoy your blog and writings, I have to agree with others that you’re really out of line in calling Bishop Williamson an “idiot”. 

As you say, “just saying”....

I really hope they sign also for the good of the Church. I think I will join them in redoubling my fervor in prayer that God’s will be done.

It was Pope Benedict XVI who acknowledged that Vatican II did not repudiate the Latin Mass. Vatican II added vernacular to the liturgy.

Your name-calling of Bishop Williamson is beyond the pale. Moreover, anyone who thinks that expressing disbelief in the mainstream account of the means or scope of Judaic suffering in WWII is a heresy against the Catholic Faith needs to be re-catechized in the basics of Catholicism. That is, unless you intentionally equate the “holocaust” with a new Golgotha (as many of our leading contemporary cardinals expressly do). In that case, you have embraced the exact modernist dispensationalism that the SSPX could help to counteract. No wonder your in a tizzy!

To those of you who are upset about Pat’s reference to Bishop Williamson, are you just upset because he says that about a bishop or do you not know the man?  Or do you know Bishop W and agree with his views and ways?  I attended SSPX churches for many years (but where I am now, I attend sometimes a diocesan Latin Mass and sometimes my local parish). I have observed the man for nearly 40 years.  Yes, I have met him in person. I have heard him speak from the pulpit, as well as read his newsletters years ago. I have observed him through the media in more recent times. He does not represent the Society at large, let alone the Church (of which he was ordained illicitly, as that’s why the Pope had to lift excommunication from these bishops).  I don’t know what happened but it seems to me he was more prudent in his thinking in his earliest years in the U.S.  About twenty years ago, he wrote obsessively against women wearing pants.  More recently he has basically denied the gas chambers and the numbers of the holocaust - while in Germany. (There is a YouTube video of the interview.)  Talk about making the Church look bad. As I said, he does not represent the Society. If the SSPX and the Vatican come to some agreement, I predict that Bishop W will probably not remain long a part of that. But God can work miracles and I pray for his soul, but most especially, as this great day draws hear, I pray for the Church as a whole and for all the souls of the people in the SSPX…many of whom are my dear friends. Thank you, Pat, for sharing this post.

Wow, that article was vile!  I say hold on to your hats people like the author, who is so un charitable in his assessing the possibilities open for our church I am surprised he was allowed this column on this subject.  I am one who seeks reconciling and healing.

What are you talking about?  I am 100% Supportive of the SSPX being regularized.  I think it would be a great thing for the Church!

The point of my article is that there are forces on both sides who are going to make that as difficult as possible.  They will.

As for my calling Bp. Williamson an idiot and a lunatic.  You people are right.  Those names are not appropriate.  Much worse names would be appropriate, though.  I thought I would be nice.

WOW! What an amazing quote by Blessed Tomasuccio!  Where did you find it, Jonathan?  Thank you for posting this incredible piece of information.  The Holy Spirit is guiding you, for sure.  Once reunited to the Vine, healing can begin, as the flow of Sanctifying Grace will be restored.  As the author of this article points out, it will not be overnight.  And yes, read Bishop Williamson’s column for starters, and this is only ONE of his weekly tirades, which are frequently FILLED with heresy.  When an organization teaches that the Roman Catholic Sacraments are invalid, when their bishops REPEAT Sacraments that have been performed by RC Bishops (Confirmation) because they consider them to be “invalid,” when they tell their people that they don’t need to go to Mass on Sunday if an SSPX Mass is not available and it won’t be sinful, when you preach that Rome has been taken over by Freemasons…  I could go on and on and on… The SSPX priests and clerics are strictly forbidden by the Pontiff from administering the Catholic Sacraments and from offering public Masses, under penalty of the gravest sin.  They openly and brazenly defy the Pontiff every single day and also submit to NO RC authority. None.

I have serious concerns about the Society.  Most seriously, the Society has been credibly linked to extreme-right causes and ideologies, from promotion of the Vichy to anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.  The last thing Mother Church needs to be more closely linked in the public mind to the extreme right.  I actually mentioned such concerns about the Society in one of the letters that I mailed to the Pope.  Nonetheless, I will pray that this situation be resolved according to God’s will, even if we can’t tell exactly what it is.

Editors of National Catholic Register,

Unless and until Pat Archbold is able to exercise a modicum of Christian charity in speaking about his ideological adversaries, I will continue to advise the many dozens of young Catholics in my own sphere of influence to avoid the National Catholic Register, its subscription appeals, and its advertisers. I am confident I am not alone.

Beyond your practical considerations as a news outlet to attract or deter readership, I ask you to admonish Mr. Archbold for your own spiritual sake and his. The following are comments by Mr. Archbold and Our Master:

“As for my calling Bp. Williamson an idiot and a lunatic.  You people are right.  Those names are not appropriate.  Much worse names would be appropriate, though.  I thought I would be nice.”

““But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”

We’ll be discussing this on LIVE radio Monday evening with Louie Verrecchio, John Vennari, and others. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/up-close/2012/04/17/the-sspx-and-rome

I got a good chuckle reading your article and some of the comments and I learned a few things about SSPX
too… thanks for writing this article!

I’m surprised that everyone is piling on Pat about the Bishop Williamson comment.  Bishop Fellay himself has recently compared Bishop Williamson to a live hand grenade that he’s caught with.  He doesn’t particularly want to hold on to it, but he certainly doesn’t want to throw it in the direction of others.

See Bishop Fellay’s interview with Salt and Light television:

Fr. Rosica: And how do you deal with the phenomenon of the loose canon of Bishop Williamson?

Bishop Fellay: Well, we do what we can. It’s like, if you have a grenade in your hand in the middle of a crowd. What do you do with it? Can you throw it?

http://saltandlighttv.org/blog/general/witness-interview-with-bishop-bernard-fellay-sspx-complete-transcript

Thanks Pat, another great job. Let us keep praying for those that are outside of the fold and that they will come Home once again. We have two choices: Heaven (with the Church) or hell (for those that are disobedient). As for me, I will stick with the ones that are leading us into Heaven, the True Traditionalist: Pope Benedict and I will avoid those that put themselves above the Pope and the Church. We should never attack those that have been ordained, but, of course, if the ordination was not proper, well, it is a horse of another color.  +JMJ+

Yes, how dare you call a Holocaust denier an idiot.  You are much, much too kind in your assessment.

One could say that Christ Himself was “a live hand grenade”. I don’t tak Bishop Fellay’s comparison of his Bro. Bishop to “a live hand grenade” to mean much more than “he’s a lighting rod figure”. On the contrary “lunatic” and “idiot” are abject detractions of character.

Holocoust-Denier!!!!

What’s with the theologically-laden terminology? Like the particulars of some groups wartime suffering is an article of Faith demanding our unquestioning devotion!

While we’re at it, Cardinal Pell of Australia just denied the historicity of the Garden of Eden on national television.
He chalked the whole thing up to mere allegory. A Cardinal of the Church propounding the figurative significance of Genesis to the exlusion of its historical factuality.

Where’s the righteously angry Catholic mob when you need it? Don’t hold you breath for Pat Archbold to verbally skewer His Excellency!

I commented above, but I have two things to add, one a clarification of something I said, and the other about a comment someone made. 

First, when I wrote, “I pray for all the souls of the people in the SSPX…” I did NOT mean that if the SSPX does not return to the Church that I would judge their souls. Many people who are not “officially” within the Church are saved through Her graces, if they are of good will and believe in their hearts that they are choosing the right path. Only God can judge what is in anyone’s heart.  I meant that I pray for their guidance in the decisions that are before them, and for their faith, peace and happiness.

On a different topic, a couple of people are saying that denying the Holocaust is not a heresy.  I don’t remember anyone saying it was. I thought heresy was about denying defined truths of Christian doctrine.  But what would you think of someone denying gravity or denying, in the 21st century, that the earth is round?  You would think they were crazy, wouldn’t you?  Unfortunately, it’s worse than that, because to deny the Holocaust is to deny that a whole group of people were persecuted unjustly and horrendously.  If your next door neighbor’s family were beaten and killed, how would he feel if you denied it ever happened? Probably either hurt or mad, right?  It would seem to him that you didn’t respect him. This is why acknowledging the truth of the Holocaust is more important than, say, a belief in gravity or a round world.  We are here to live with our neighbors in love, truth, and respect for one another.

Bishop Williamson is a loose cannon no matter how you look at it. IF the SSPX is brought to a canonical regularization, my thought is that he will not go along and will choose a permanent schism outside of the Roman Catholic Church, all the while claiming his is the ‘real’ church and everyone else in the world is wrong.

Schism is sin, by the way.  Splitting the Body of Christ just like the founders of the uncountable protestant sects did is no answer.

“While we’re at it, Cardinal Pell of Australia just denied the historicity of the Garden of Eden on national television.”

The Church does not now - nor has it ever held - that the creation story and the Garden of Eden are taken literally as historical events.  And while acknowledgement of the Holocaust is not some essential part of the faith, denial of a well-documented historical event certainly calls into question the judgment and even sanity of the person issuing the denial.

Hey, Dean, I hope you’re not a bishop, because you’re an idiot.

In any case, I hope they come back in. They are sorely needed in the fight to reclaim our Catholic heritage, and re-evangelize the US and the world.

Concerning Cardinal Pell, he gave away the store to an Atheist in a circus-like “debate”. Keep blaming the media and go on telling me that they distorted the Cardinal’s strong articulation of biblical inerrancy in the face of blasphemers. Who are you kidding? Read it and weep:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/adam-and-eve-thats-just-mythology-says-pell/story-e6frg6nf-1226322379822

While “idiot” may sound harsh, perhaps “utterly detached from reality” is a kinder term for a man who denies the Holocaust and refers to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church as “NewChurch.”  I’ve read quite a few of the good bishop’s weekly newsletters, and I’m not surprised that Bishop Fellay has silenced him.  He still puts out his weekly newsletter but it is not posted publicly; it is only distributed to a pre-screened group of people.

http://www.sanctepater.com/2010/04/bishop-williamson-silenced-by-sspx.html

Loved the article, and laughed all the way through most of the comments. Granted, as a (relatively) recent convert, the SSPX schism isn’t something I’m terribly familiar with, but I’ve always understood that if one doesn’t acknowledge the Papal authority of Rome then one might as well just stop calling oneself “Catholic”. And I’m pretty certain that calling a bishop an idiot is not a mortal sin. What a ridiculous idea! Anyone who denies the Holocaust (seriously, there is loads of verifiable proof that it happened, plus you’re insane if you refuse to believe factual history in order to further some delusional worldview) deserves to be called an “idiot” and worse. They’re not just an embarrassment to Catholicism; they’re an embarrassment to humanity.

That being said, I think reconciliation would be wonderful. Every schism is always a tragedy. Personally I hope that the next century sees a restoration of a good relationship with Protestants and perhaps even an attempt to bring them back to the fold. Protestants are converting in huge numbers lately (I know, I am one) and Rome should really take advantage of that.

“Anyone who denies the Holocaust (seriously, there is loads of verifiable proof that it happened, plus you’re insane if you refuse to believe factual history in order to further some delusional worldview) deserves to be called an “idiot” and worse. They’re not just an embarrassment to Catholicism; they’re an embarrassment to humanity.”

Ha!
Like I said, nothing fires up modernist Catholics except when someone dissents from the Doctrine of the Calvary-Surpassing Sacrifice of 20th-century Judaics!

Calah the “New Evangelization Crusader” defends this Supreme Article of Faith to point of expelling his fellows and ranking them as sub-human!

Samantha,  I, like others, would like to know about what “heretical” teachings or ideas to which SSPX adheres.  Please elaborate or recant.  I have been associated (attend mass, kids in their schools) with the group for years.  It is a gross error to paint the group or its ideas in this light.  The only things they reject, or are seeking clear statements in light of tradition, are the novelties that have crept into the church’s teaching since VII (religious liberty, collegiality, ecumenism, etc.)

Pat, nice article.  I, with a military background, adhere more to a “respect the office”, whether or not I respect the person, which leads me, oftentimes to bite my tongue when being critical of many bishops’ actions, today, rather than calling them idiots.  My preference, perhaps not yours.

There are pictures of the holocaust, people. PICTURES!

“There are pictures of the holocaust, people. PICTURES!”

Ehnnnnn! WRONG!

There a pictures of loads of corpses of unfortunate victims of ethnically-targeted wartime internment being disrespectfully dumped and cremated after they perished from a regional war-induced breakdown of food-transport and the rapid spread of lethal diseases that result from inhumane confinement.

“For there be many disobedient, vaine-speakers, and seducers, especially they that are of the Circumcision. who must be controlled. who subvert whole houses, teaching the things they ought not, for filthy lucre. One of them said, their own proper prophet, The Cretensians always liars, naughty beastes, slothful bellies. This testimony is true. For the which cause rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not attending to Jewish fables, and commandments of men averting themselves from the truth.”

The Epistle of Paul to Titus

“There are pictures of the holocaust, people. PICTURES!”

“There is propaganda of the holocaust, people. PROPAGANDA!”

Wow, I’d like to join up with the chorus, Pat, and let you know that it wasn’t a great move to call an idiot like Bishop Richard Williamson an idiot.  Idiots don’t like it.  After all, this mentally challenged individual who was excommunicated on purpose and then unexcomunicated by accident (at least by an acknowledged lack of examination on the part of the Vatican) might take um-bridge with your statement. 

He is a valid successor of the apostles who is at the moment in a state of quasi-union with Rome.  He deserves the same deference we would give to other idiot bishops such as Bishop Gabino Zavala.

All joking aside, there is a bizarre balance that needs to be struck.  An ordained man, no matter how wacko and damaging Christ’s body is still another Christ.  At the same time, the Church survived the 400’s because when and anti-pope (still another Christ) preached on Christmas morning that Jesus was not God, the faithful laity threw him out of the Church and beat him nearly to death.  I have no idea how to find the balance.

The essay by John Lamont posted on Sandro Magister’s Chiesa site argues that SSPX accepts far more of Vatican II than do most theologians in the West and the dissent from Vatican II by ‘progressives’ covers a wide range of issues much more central to the Catholic faith.  He lists many points to which SSPX - but almost no Jesuit theologian - assents.  The post is at http://bit.ly/IDGCOJ

Take one of the most aggressive Jewish demands in Christian terrain. Riding Gentile sympathy for Jewish suffering in the Holocaust, Jews have successfully demanded a change in official Catholic (and other Christian) belief; the Church has accordingly excised from its formal teachings the notion that Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Christ. Yet, Jewish religious literature itself actually takes full credit for killing Christ. “According to the Talmud,” notes Israel Shahak, “Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it. In the Talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.” [SHAHAK, p. ] According to the millennia-old Jewish book about Jesus—Tol’doth Yeshu, Jewish professor Joseph Klausner notes that “the sages of Israel recognized [Jesus] and arrested him. They took and hanged him on the eve of Passover.” “The Catholic Church has certainly gone a long way in transforming its theology of Judaism,” liberal rabbi Byron Sherwin noted in 1992, “particularly in comparison to the way things were before the Second Vatican Council. Theological changes have led to changes in relations with Judaism. The Jewish community, I think, has so far not responded.” [SHERWIN, p. 154-155] “Since the late 1960’s,” says J.J. Goldberg, “the [formal] dialogue [between Christian and Jewish organizations] brought extensive changes in Church teachings about Judaism. Oddly, there has been no reciprocation: to the frustration of Catholic participants, Jewish participants have never agreed to an examination of Jewish teaching, because of an Orthodox ban on interreligious ‘disputation.’” [GOLDBERG, p. 62] The continuous exhortations by Jews to crucify Christianity itself (and particularly the Catholic Church) as innately malevolent is institutionalized in the Jewish community. The Christian faith is relentlessly forced into a defensive posture against an omnipresent Jewish ideological aggression that ceaselessly makes demands from its self-celebrated position of higher moral certitude (per its “unique” Holocaust perch). The Catholic Church is especially badgered and harassed as worldwide Jewry demands a humbling “apology” for not doing more to help the Jews in World War II; some Jews go so far as to insinuate that Catholic church members were somehow active murderers.

After reading their Holocaust-denier defending comments here, and their overscrupulous hyperventilating about someone being deservedly called an idiot, I’m pretty sure I’d prefer the SSPX stay outside the Church.  That and all the pain and torture they have caused my very dear friend after her husband got caught in their web.

@Jennifer

And I take it repeating Christ’s caution against defaming our fellows is purely scrupulous?

Yeah, Ben, turns out I’m a historian with a graduate degree, but I know how much conspiracy nuts like to think they’re the only ones that know anything. Unfortunately, you have a preponderance of evidence to explain, and a negative to prove, neither of which you or your compatriots have managed to do.

I’ve heard the “Jews killed Christ” argument before, and I’m not arguing it. However, Christ WAS a Jew, and so was the BVM - so we are supposed to hate all the Jews, except for the ones we don’t? What about Abraham, should we hate him - he was a Jew, and the Jews killed Christ? Tell me, what imaginary line of hatred shall we draw?

It is always necessary to define your terms. Writing on the Talmud in his book is L’Histoire et Les Histoires dans la Bible (1921), Bishop Landrieux of Dijon makes the following acute summary :

“It is a systematic deformation of the Bible ... The pride of race with the idea of universal domination is therein exalted to the height of folly ... For the Talmudist, the Jewish race alone constitutes humanity, the non-Jews are not human beings. They are of a purely animal nature. They have no rights. The moral laws which regulate the mutual relations of men, the Ten Commandments, are not of obligation in their regard. They oblige exclusively among Jews. With regard to the Goyim (non-Jews) everything is allowed : robbery, fraud, perjury, murder. When the Talmud became known, especially in the sixteenth century, thanks to the invention of printing, such indignation was aroused throughout the Catholic world that a General Jewish Assembly in 1631 gave orders that the most obnoxious passages should not be printed, but added that, ‘a little circle, O, should be put in place of the suppressed passages. This will warn the rabbis and the school-teachers that they are to teach these passages orally so that the learned among the Nazarenes (Christians) may no longer have any pretext for attacking us in this regard.’ In our day, the Talmud does not provoke either astonishment or anger among Catholics, because it is no longer known.”

Jennifer, thankfully I have not encountered this anti-Semitic thinking, that you see here, among the SSPX followers whom I have known.  As a matter of fact, I have never heard anyone rant like this before on this topic. Since it doesn’t sound like the ranting is winding down, I am “unclicking”  on “notify me of follow-up comments”, as I don’t want to read the comments anymore. They are beginning to be worse than comments on regular news stories.  Sheesh!

Not all Jews at the time of Christ called for His crucifixion.  No living Jew today has had any hand in crucifying Christ 2,000 years ago.  Jesus told us—- those who heard His words through their ears, and we who are living today and have heard His words through the Gospel—-  to forgive our enemies.  As I understand His words, He did not imply that the one we need to forgive has to say “sorry” first.  Pope John Paul II did what was right and just in apologizing for Catholic sins against others.

Thomas, the covenant, marked by circumcision on the 8th day, was made with Abraham and started with his children.  Judaism starts with him.  Kinda like life begins at conception, and there is no other point that can be logically defended as the beginning.

I hope they reconcile too, it’s time to bring all the sheep back together.  I was born during the “great revolution of the 60’s” and my family grew up “Catholic” outside the church (not even SSPX members)amidst the confusion.  Very damaging and heartbreaking to all of us.  Not good.  What is comforting for me to realize now (and can see in hindsight) is how VII was misinterpreted by conservatives and liberals alike and thrown all over the place.  We all need to walk down the middle and have hope, faith in God, work with the Pope his vicar on earth.  If we are Catholic, we do this, we believe this.  That’s tradition.  The church is healing and getting better.  Lets al be on board and stop bickering and nit picking - there will always be a fault to be found.

I can just imagine God looking at his little list of whose a Jew and isn’t to decide who to punish. However, you bring up an interesting point, as you seem to claim two things: 1) Abraham is not the father of the tribe of Judah; and 2) Your hatred of the tribe is linked specifically to the name of the tribe. So, if they just changed their name, you’d be ok with them - it isn’t about the genetic heritage at all?

Lord, do you even know what a neo-con is? It’s not like calling someone a moron, it actually has a meaning. It is, in the broad strokes, the name given to a foreign policy which promotes democracy as a means of maintaining peace, and is willing to use force to do so. It is a sort of forceful idealism. Unfortunately for you, I am not a proponent - I’m more of a realist, but I digress. 

And, yes, I guess saying the holocaust makes me a “lover” of Jews, just like being against slavery makes me an a “lover” of African-Americans, and being against communism makes me a “lover” of Russian peasants.

I do not believe Judaism started with Abraham as you understand it. Abraham was a proto-Christian or Catholic. As Bishop Bossuet writes :

“What greater authority can there be than that of the Catholic Church, which centres in itself all the authority of past ages, and the ancient traditions of mankind back to its origins…What continuity, what tradition, what a wonderful sequence of events!...Any sect which does not show its succession from the beginning of the world does not come from God.” For God, has never scorned to teach men the means of serving and pleasing Him. “The Catholic Church alone fills all preceding centuries with a continuity that cannot be disputed. The Law is the forerunner of the Gospel ; Moses and the patriarchs are intimately connected with Jesus Christ. To be awaited, to come, to be acknowledged by a posterity as lasting as the world : this is the character of the Messiah in whom we believe : Jesus Christ, yesterday and today.” {These facts,} “clearer than the light of the sun, show our religion to be as ancient as the world. They consequently demonstrate that it has no other author than Him who laid the foundations of the universe, Who, holding all things in the hollow of His hand, was alone able to begin and carry out a design which encompasses all centuries.”

Luckily, as you acknowledge, that’s your personal belief, un-moored from reality. Unfortunately, you can’t ex post facto biblical figures.

Dean, you really need to pay more attention to your grammar. “Calling someone and sic) idiot, let alone a bishop…” implies that “idiot” and “bishop” are epithets with close to the same meaning.
Secondly, Nikes? I thought the Pope wore those cute little red slippers.

Tom, honestly, charitably I believe it is you who are getting tripped up on definitions of the often misunderstood word “Jew” (I won’t call you deranged, and I wish that you’d return the favor).

Any of the above posts critical of the renegade rabbinical spin-off of what was, until the new covenant, true Hebrew religion will shed light on the matter for you. Furthermore, I would point you to the elucidating talks of contemporary Catholic historians such as E. Michael Jones (no extremist by any means).

I recommend his very user-friendly talk linked here:

http://youtu.be/lOVbTXhqtxs

Just a head up!!  If you deny the holocaust here or any other such similar folly, your comment will likely live a shorter life than a North Korean rocket.  So don’t bother.

Wow… this is interesting how the discussion has gone down this path.  Part of the reason His Excellency was silenced was exactly this.  The jewish discussion, holocaust discussion, or (insert your own controversial, yet not important to salvation discussion here) discussion leads to heated debates over things that have little to nothing to do with things like… oh, I don’t know… the Devine Indwelling, or personal sanctity, the importance of the mass and sacraments, getting ourselves and families to heaven, evangelization, etc. etc.  So it’s stated somewhere in this string… many SSPXers are focused on the important things.

Judiac Disfigurement of the Gospel can and does devastate the proper transmission of the Faith. Combatting it has EVERYTHING to do with Charity, Sanctity, Salvation, the Church’s Visibility, you name it.

For a timeline of events of the SSPX and the Holy See (as someone earlier requested), go to sspx.org:
-Get the Full Picture: http://sspx.org/get_the_full_picture.htm
-SSPX’s Roman Theological Commission: http://sspx.org/sspx_roman_theological_commission.htm

I would also suggest subscribing to their weekly website e-mail updates which are often interesting and informative: http://sspx.org/subscribe.htm.

Sorry James that’s not directed at you but at the anti-Semite whose post was deleted.

        If catholics truly understood the crisis in the church they would be filled with horror at what has happened.  The Vatican II Popes have done things that no Pope before them has done such as change the mass, the Rosary, enter synagogues, Assisi (syncretism and false ecumenism), etc.  The Bible and Catholic Prophecy warn us of apostasy before antichrist.  We pray the SSPX continues to fight for the traditions always taught and may God give them the courage to continue to do so.  Bishop Williamson is truly a hero of the faith and so was Fr. Coughlin, Fr. Fahey and others who spoke out against the enemies of the church.

I have been a SSPX parishioner for 27 years and believe me… The goal of the SSPX and the millions…yes millions of people supporting it is:
THE RETURN OF THE PRECONCILIAR CATHOLICISM AS SOLUTION TO THE WORST CRISIS IN THE CHURCH AND THE INTEGRAL DENOUNCEMENT OF THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL AS CAUSE OF THIS CRISIS.

Am I not right in thinking that Bishop Williamson joined SSPX from Anglicanism, and has never actually been in communion with the Holy Father?

I will be reading and praying John 17 this weekend in hope that the body of Christ will one day be restored to unity.  The world needs this healing to continue and I pray the Holy Spirit will guide the decision of SSPX.  “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

SSPX-ers just joint the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter http://www.fssp.org/en/liturgie1962.htm they have the latin mass and we are 100% sure they are not in schism.

Interesting point, Jan.  Wonder what the impact on the FSSP and Institute of Christ the King will be when the SSPX is given a canonical structure within which to operate, considering they are in existence as an alternative to the SSPX.  Actually, now that I think about it, they would likely all strengthen each other for a common purpose.  That would sure be something, eh?

I am not an SSPXer, but that you would call Bishop Williamson a “complete idiot” is absolutely uncalled for.  What kind of a Catholic are you?

Dear Jan and Joe Spencer.
The Fraternity Saint Peter has been “within” the Church since its foundation in July 1988 and has done very little, I will say nothing, to end the unprecedented CRISIS in which the Church is IN since the Second Vatican council.
Thank you Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the SSPX for the FSSP !

I’m not an SSPX, but I sincerely hope that they are reunited. What a boon this would be to the Church, liturgically and spiritually. When I saw the picture on the most recent Sandro Magister article I couldn’t help but to think: “That’s the Church I want to belong to!” Oh wait, I DO belong to that Church—because that is our heritage too. I really am hoping that an incorporated SSPX will act as salt and leaven to the whole Church.

Pat….Is every person who question the size and specifics of the Holocaust a “Lunatic and Idiot”
The Holocaust has nothing to do with Catholic Doctrine and Teachings.

I do hope the SSPX will accept this.  We need more Tradition, less innovation.  That said, I want to state that VII isn’t the problem, the interpretation of it is.  I agree with the commentor who said SSPX had been
against the liturgical abuses that crept up after VII.  I prefer the Latin Mass because it’s more reverent and less distracting to me.  But I go to FSSP Mass.  As for denying the Holocaust, one should pray to St. Maximilian Kolbe and ask him.

Joe,

I have friends who attend a local SSPX Chapel who, understanding my frustrations with the liturgy at my local parish but apprehension regarding the status of SSPX, kindly directed me to the Institute of Christ the King. 

I hope that act of charity on their part is an indicator of how the broader relationship, assuming SSPX is back in the fold, will be.  A untied front from the SSPX, FSSP and ICKSP would be a powerful voice for tradition. 

KCHawk

“The Holocaust has nothing to do with Catholic Doctrine and Teachings.”

So our standard is that so long as a person spouts non-sensically about matters not pertaining to the faith, the individual cannot be called an idiot?  So if a Bishop announced that he thought 9-11 was an inside job, that the moon landing was faked, and last night he broke bread with Elvis, said Bishop could not be called an idiot because he was not speaking about faith and morals?

Why is Pope Benedict trying to please SSPX?  Let them go. Good riddance. A bunch of right wing kooks that we are better off without.  Williamson is buffoon who cannot be taken seriously.

In all reality, I cannot agree with the terms used to describe Williamson. Nor can I agree with a person so against him that they would receive his newsletter just to criticize it.  I too saw that same newsletter and was bothered by it.  I recall thinking that Bishop Williamsons position would be that no matter what the SSPX should not return into full communion with the Church.  However, I do believe that Bishop Fellay will make the right decision as he is a holy man who loves Christ and His Church above all else.  On that note, if the Vatican is demanding that the SSPX accept as valid some of the painfully obvious problems with Vatican II, it may pose problems.  Personally, I and many others have issues with the modernist ideas on ecumenism that Vatican II put forward.  Simple reality is that what would be best is for His Holiness to come out with a more direct description of the interpretation of many of the documents from the council that are vague or have been hijacked by the modernists in the Church.  Not to mention, it would help to correct the attitude that Vatican II is the only thing of note in Church History.  If the SSPX is pushed aside in this, I can see a massive amount of problems within the Church forthcoming in its wake, which is sad.  But, at the end of the day, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ will do what is right in the eyes of God, and we as Catholics must accept this whether our opinions concede with it or not.

I really don’t think it will be a disaster for the Church if they do not sign.  It would be nice if they would… but it would also be nice if all broken away Christians came back into the Church.  My experience with the members of this group is that many (not all… but most) are intensely angry people.  In terms of their religious practice they fulfill what Christ said to the pharisees, “You strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel”.  I prefer an orthodox clergy and lay faithful who follow the Church in humility, love and obedience as opposed to the SSPX who follow nothing more than their own personal concept of the truth based upon their rather hostile, anemic and distorted vision of Christ.
p.s. The SSPX arguments in these comments concerning the use of the term “idiot” is such a ridiculous smokescreen hiding the fact that they haven’t any coherent arguments against the article itself.

How can we expect mercy and forgiveness if we don’t offer mercy and forgiveness to others—Jesus was quite clear about this in Scripture.

Lord, I beg your mercy and forgiveness on ALL of us - sinners.

deny that the earth is round?

I deny it, as any rational person should.  Round is two-dimensional.  The Earth is spherical (three dimensional).

Wow, these comments sure confirm the point of Mr. Archbold’s column—“It’s gonna a be a bumpy ride.”

Tne comments this column has elicited offer a big-picture view of part of what Pat was suggesting: along with progressives who can kick up a mighty dust storm, there are a lot of extremely strong opinions in the trad camps. Even attendees of the EF can be very vocal about the validity of the Novus Ordo, or the efficacy of JPII. But for a good look into SSPX, try travelling deeply into its website: there you get a fuller, and quite disturbing, picture. May the Lord have His way in the matter of the SSPX. My prophecy: If the SSPX under Bp Schmidberger returns to the fold, expect a schism within the SSPX. And, if I were a betting gal, my money would support that the April 15 reply will be asking for extended negotiations.

For the good of the Church I hope they sign, and then I hope that they open a branch in our state where there is not one traditional parish of any sort, where the only EF Mass is nearly two hours away and not on Sunday (there’s actually a tiny SSPX chapel closer to us in our neighboring state).  Since the priests in our diocese are not particularly EF friendly it would make life a lot nicer for people who are sick of NO Masses that don’t even follow NO rubrics.  Please, away with applause at Mass, away with cute kids singing banal songs, away with chatter like you’d find after a movie in the theater.  Please, please, SSPX sign, and we’ll help you find places all over the country.  In this desperate hour we need you as fellow warriors.

It is a sign of the times…

A reporter for a paper which has aided the progressive nominalists who still claim Catholicism as their creed, so capriciously calls His Excellency Bishop Richard Williamson a complete ‘idiot’ and ‘lunatic’...how utterly predictable.
Some of us have actually read what the man has written and actually been fortunate enough to have seen him practice the faith. He would find this missive hilarious and pray for the one who penned it.  Charity Mr. Archbold is not an option in our religion, but rather it is a mandate. Throwing mud out of ignorance is something which our enemies, and they are many, do quite well.
You can call +Williamson any name you would like, I can vouch for him safely and say that it bothers him in the least. You ought to be more worried that the enemies both inside and out of the physical Church all chuckle with glee when you (and others like you) ramble incessantly and say nothing.
I too once read +Richard Williamson with utter horror, but then as I studied REALITY, I came to understand that it was I who was the idiot.

Thank you, Mr. Archbold, for the update. I will include the reconciliation of SSPX with the Church in my prayer intentions.

God is an “option” (Ratzinger-Bened16), Jesus perhaps is the Messiah -it depends on your reading the Bible ( the same Ratzinger) , God - if you choose this option - is the same as that of the Jews and muslims…, BUT the holocaust is the holocaust: the only dogma, in all its parts, and to deny it is to be ( o to remain) excommunicated…..Long life to the new Jewchristian Religion and its Great Poperabbi!!

I find it rather humorous that people who cling perilously close (if not fully jump over the line) of anti-Semitism, and who deride the “post-Vatican II” Church (as if the Church could be so divided) always are the first to whine about “lack of charity.”  Beam, eyes, and all that.

Without the SSPX, it would be *us* who would be looking like the reactionaries. For every modernist who trades tradition for popularity, there should be a conservative who retreats deeper into tradition. If these forces are not equally balanced, then the Body of Christ is shifted. This shift is not theological, it is political. The SSPX was a correct response to the abuses permitted by V2. That being said, each and every member of SSPX must remain obedient. It is their obedience to the Living Body of Christ that marks them as conservative Catholics. Without that obedience they become Protestants blindly re-interpreting dead writings.

Let us fervently pray for the Church, the Holy Father, and the SSPX that reconcilations can be made on this Divine Mercy Sunday as Our Risen Lord, Jesus Christ, pours out His infinite mercy on our Church as his bride and her children for Chrisitan Unity and complete submission of the SSPX to the Holy See. Lord Jesus, we ask this in Your Holy Name and according to Your holy will.

“... For with the Lord is kindness and with Him is plenteous redemption;
And He will redeem Israel from all their iniquities.”  I am a cradle Catholic, but have had teach myself most of my life about the Catholic faith. It is very difficult to sift out truth from political statements (usually they are not the same). VII came about as I was entering my teens and it was all so very confusing.  My prayer book says it is a sin to speak against the Church or priests.  So, for myself, I will continue to pray for a true reconciliation between SSPX and Rome.

M. A. Elizabeth, God bless you for your Catholic response!

Dear Dolorosa,
Oh no, not changing the Rosary!  The horror.  You do realize of course, that when the Rosary was given to St. Dominic that there were no set mysteries assigned to it?  You realize that there are four different rite of the Rosary in the Church (the Ambrosian, the Dominican, the Latin and I can never remember the fourth)  It was Pope St. Pius the V, a Dominican, that established the 15 mysteries of which your are familiar.  Before that, there were Rosary book with mysteries even for each bead.
As for the Mass, it has not been changed, but has grown organically over the centuries.  What you refer to as the Trinitine Mass is not the Mass of Pope St. Pius V, who gave us the first Missal for universal use, but is very different as was the Mass of St. Pius V from that of Justin Martyr.  It is easy to jump on a band wagon and complain about things, but it is much harder to learn the truth about things.  There is plenty of which to complain in todays Church, but these are not those things.  If your ire is to be effective, please at least direct it to those things that really do fall outside the bounds of orthodoxy.

I hope that the SSPX signs.  And I hope the Pope offers them something which is way beyond the dreams of any member of the SSPX or any traditionalist….something so broad and so all encompassing that no corner of the Church will be untouched.  Bells will be ringing and people cheering.  Faithful Catholics around the world will be applauding the Pope, and the SSPX….and the memory of the late, great, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

On the other hand, all the embittered, angry aged femminist layclothes nuns, the gays, the radical ecumenist priests across the world but especially in Western Europe and the USA, and all the remnant dark forces of the dying “Spirit of Vatican II” creeping around the world and the drafty halls of the Vatican will be having crying fits.  Cardinal Bertone might well resign (hurrah!)  Cardinal Sodano will slither away into his hole to cook up some devious plot to somehow humiliate and undermine the Pope.
But the rest of the Church will breath a sigh of relief, and get down on our knees in thanksgiving to God that thru the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, our prayers have been answered thru the actions of our courageous Pope.

Let us pray that it indeed comes out this way!  And it might.

Ben,
Regarding historicity of garden of Eden, you need to check your catechism. Pell is accurately representing Catholic teaching.

Bp. Williamson may have usurped an episcopal consecration but he can’t usurp the respect due to lawful pastors.

Guido: Catholic teaching is *not* what Pell misrepresented it as, and if anyone were to attempt to force me, or my children, to refer to Adam as a myth, I would resist them to their face.

Heresy, Guido, is not made orthodox merely because somebody waves their hand in the general direction of a catechism.

The Faith concerning Adam is no myth.

*****Anyone****** who says Adam is a myth is teaching heresy, and they will have a fight on their hands from me.

from Bill Foley

Wow! You SSPXers are really something else. The following is an unmasking of what you really stand for.

Traditionalism by Father Angelo Geiger

By traditionalism, then, I mean that ideology by which Catholics, in the name of conserving Tradition, take it upon themselves to determine what magisterial act does and does not belong to Catholic Tradition.  By calling traditionalism an “ideology” I mean to indicate that it consists of integrated assertions—in the line of contingent opinions—that come together to form an airtight and complete theory for the reconstruction of Catholic life according to the Tradition of the Church.  I argue that this ideology pretends to solve contingent problems by submitting the living magisterium to a scientific analysis and then insists that the magisterium, including the Holy Father, either prove the analysis wrong or conform to it.

Bring back ALL traditional ways!!! We need to get back to the things that work!  I’m a FSSP guy but if the SSPX guys come in this will be a huuuuge boost to bringing traditional ways back as the Holy Father would like to see.  SSPX guys will need to have a Church to come in to & with them wanting to hear confessions many hrs a day, say Requiem Masses, more fasting, etc (like the FSSP) there will be more good then harm in this.  Sure the liberals in the church will be upset & to that we say tough.  We’ve put up with liberal stuff for way too long.  Pope Benedict XVI, pope of unity!!!

Guido,
The Holy Catholic faith has always held that Adam and Eve were the first parents of the human race.  They were real individual people and not a group of people.  Otherwise the doctrine on Original Sin holds no water.  The actual historicity of the Garden of Eden and the exact way they were tested and then failed the test falling into sin.  That being said, we do know that Eden was an actual place and they really were expelled from it.  In order to hold that it was not a historical account, in the way we understand that, you must make the case that the human author, Moses,was using another genre, since we Catholics hold that whatever the author intended as true is true.  Catholics hold that God is the primary author of Sacred Scripture and that therefore it contains no error, in faith, morals, history, etc. since God cannot lie.  But I have to wonder, why is it so important to some that it be a myth (in the truest sense) rather than a historical account.  Does it have to do with evolution?  If so, that is really rather odd since the theory of evolution cannot account for one single set of parents nor the discord in the natural world and the falling away from the original perfect harmony being introduced after the fall of man.  What is the point of bringing it up?

The Jew haters and cheerleaders for denial of mass murder continue to make clear that nobody, but nobody, is a greater enemy of the Benedictine reforms than Radical Traditionalists themselves.  No sane person would embrace the ugly parody of the Catholic faith that people like Ben represent.

What a can of worms has been opened (or at least,vermicelli)!That that idiot didn’t see the obvious sanctity of Blessed John Paul,proves his idiocy and makes any Catholic want to cry.
Being holier than the Pope has been the way to hell for the unfaithful throughout the two thousand year history of the Church.
I think that if things don’t work out on the 15th,the Church should deny all access and just let the disobedient fat heads wither off the vine.

“There a pictures of loads of corpses of unfortunate victims of ethnically-targeted wartime internment being disrespectfully dumped and cremated after they perished from a regional war-induced breakdown of food-transport and the rapid spread of lethal diseases that result from inhumane confinement.”

“Long life to the new Jewchristian Religion and its Great Poperabbi!!”

Seriously?  Holy crap. 

I have no idea what percentage of the SSPX clings to anti-semitism as an article of faith, but—you guys, please, stay right.where.you.are.

Now, the rest of you sane SSPX ones, please come on home to Rome.  We could sorely use you.

Please come on home to union with Peter, Benedict XVI, for the sake of the unity of the Church, Christ’s Body, and for the peace in our world that needs your witness.

Ben,
“Judiac Disfigurement of the Gospel can and does devastate the proper transmission of the Faith. Combatting it has EVERYTHING to do with Charity, Sanctity, Salvation, the Church’s Visibility, you name it.”

Your scapegoating of the Jews, blaming them for our own problems and failures reminds me of a certain European empire of the 1930’s-40’s…

First, I have met Bishop Williamson and had a couple of delightful meals with him. He is a delightful and erudite conversationalist. I do not agree with all of his views, but when one disagrees, the resulting repartee is congenial and marked by Christian charity.

FYI: he never denied the Holocaust. He questioned the numbers of deaths connected with this historical horror—numbers that have been used as a weapon by those with a particular political agenda. Remember: the interview that he gave which became so controversial was not supposed to be about the subject of the Holocaust. It was an “ambush” orchestrated by a Swedish leftist journalist and his leftist confreres in Germany and within the Vatican. The bishop was asked a question; he answered in a manner reflecting his own personal views (to which he is entitled). Pat Buchanan has articulated similar points of view.

stceolfrithtx: please read E. Michael Jones’ “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit” and you’ll rediscover the truism that history has been written by the victors.

We should all be hopeful that our GIFT of Faith be healed and welcoming to all.  As a Catholic, I believe that many have fallen into heresy and division because of pride, anger, and ignorance.  SSPX should examine their actions and their words and their history.  Liberals, traditionalist, etc…are in the same boat.  Both need true humility, true meekness, and true faith to journey in Christ Jesus.  Their decision is important for their Society, the Catholic Faith will survive regardless.  We all pray for the unity of Christ.

The author, although he is probably unaware of it, is paraphrasing Bishop Fellay who said to Cardinal Castrillon: When you (Vatican) take a step towards the SSPX there will be war in the Church.

I think both are correct and in support of this assertion we have:
a. the ‘discussions’ on this blog
b. the reaction of the hierarchy to Summorum Pontificum
c. the reaction of the hierarchy (and world) to the lifting of the excommunications.

If ever there was a time for calm heads and patience the time is now.

For a unbiased appraisal you may want to read an article by Sandro Magister and John Lamont.
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350219?eng=y

I miss the beauty and peace of the liturgy as expressed the in ad orientem posture of the Masses that SSPX offer, both Low and High Masses.  Far more focused on the reality of the “Jesus as Sacrifice of the Mass”, as differentiated from the “Community as Body of Christ” interpretation of the current Mass in the vernacular.  Far more reverential and spiritually fulfilling for me.  The spiritual difference between a banquet and a happy meal.
That being said, IMHO, there is an element of historical gnosticism in a number of comments that is ill-suited for a Catholic discussion.  We can all benefit from spending quiet time with the Blessed Sacrament.

I had to stop reading the comments yesterday because I couldn’t take it any more, but I just came back this morning and had to smile at this comment: 

‘deny that the earth is round?’  I deny it, as any rational person should.  Round is two-dimensional.  The Earth is spherical (three dimensional).

I stand corrected.  lol.

Margaret Mary said:
“The Earth is spherical (three dimensional).
I stand corrected.  lol.”

Umm, technically it isn’t spherical either :-(

It is a geoid- a surface everywhere perpendicular to the force of gravity.

I am one of the SSPX “hard liners” the article mentions, and the comments here have just confirmed to me the massiveness of the divide. I don’t want a “reconciliation,” because I think it will likely be a patched up affair which ultimately solves nothing: the SSPX will be given some kind of regularization framework which will be more-or-less acceptable, but there will undoubtedly be compromise asked for, and the SSPX cannot before God make such a compromise with the modernists who are still in control of the ship. I hope, of course, that they have not made such a compromise, and that if regularization occurs, it will not ask for unacceptable ‘tokens of loyalty’ from the Society, like acceptance of the Novus Ordo, acceptance of all Vatican II documents as containing no error, etc. If such a compromise has been made, I will think long and hard about continuing to assist at SSPX Masses, and in a year’s time, you might find me at a CMRI or other such independent Mass, if the atmosphere at the SSPX begins to reflect that of the typical “EF Mass.” (scads of vapid diocesan propaganda, watered-down sermons which focus more on making sure the congregation is acceptably militant in pro-life endeavors than on actually teaching the faith, pants-wearing and unveiled women, men in t-shirts and ragged jeans, toning down or hushing up of controversial subjects so as not to ‘offend’ the local ordinary or his lackeys, lots of laymen who think they should be running programs and commissions, and so forth.)

If the SSPX becomes another Campos, or another FSSP, I think you will see an exodus, or a split. I personally do not think this is a good idea, though circumstances may force it. Bishop Fellay has been persecuting the ‘hard liners’ for many years now, and this may bring things to a head. I hope the SSPX makes the best of circumstances (I mean, the Pope is the Pope, so if he says “here’s the deal I’m offering you, accept it!” the SSPX really has no choice but to sign on the dotted line, unless they can positively say that it’s contrary to divine positive law or the salvation of souls.) If an agreement is asked, and the SSPX accepts it, I hope they remain committed to their Catholic principles and do not become “soft” as others have done. There could always be another 1988 if the Vatican will not safeguard Tradition, but I don’t think the current SSPX leadership has the courage for that, alas.

I echo, of course, the comments that some have made about the article’s shameful treatment of Bp. Williamson. I don’t particularly care for Bp. Fellay, (in part because of the 2009 business involving Bp. Williamson) but I still refer to him respectfully, as he is a bishop and a servant of God. Bp. Williamson is a devout, holy, and zealous bishop, very intellectually gifted, very humble, and very committed to preaching the truth, whatever it might be. I think that if any churchman alive today is a ‘living saint,’ it is probably Bp. Williamson, and I am sure, someday when the crisis is over, we will probably be invoking St. Marcel of Econe and his disciple, St. Richard.

Joseph Athanasius- has it ever occurred to you that the poor do not typically wear business suits, and many do not possess them?

Do they have souls?

Would you bar them from your Mass?

Dear God what a perversion of the Faith.

There are really bad aspects to the SSPX, but the worst of them are not to be compared to the very best aspects of the modernist boll weevils trying to create a new religion based on homosexuality, evolution, and supine submission to the world.

My two cents:

The SSPX is coming back into full canonical status.

Buckle up.

Things are about to get interesting.

Fiat voluntas tua!

Sean North, I have no interest—whatsoever—in defending the position of SSPX.  If the position of SSPX is your own, then assume the responsibility of defending it;otherwise, quit looking for the easy way out to have others defend the lack of your faith.  Address the matter.  Marcel Lefebvre disavowed a legitimate consecration given by others, to him, by pridefully going against Holy Orders.  Marcel Lefebvre most certainly is not Athanasius, but would Athanasius have even approved of being likened to Marcel Lefebvre’s behaviors to go against his own vow, freely given, (Unless he failed to understand its meaning at the time.), against The Vicar of Christ, Pope John Paul II?  It remains clear from The Vatican, both under Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI, that Marcel Lefebvre sought resolution to a problem through schism:  no better portraying the life of Christ, to others, than Martin Luther, and John Calvin.  Through schism, their errant behaviors have deceived, and destroyed, the lives of many.  Truly you neither turn toward Martin Luther, nor John Calvin, nor King Henry VIII; still, you would do well to look ahead of you, that your feet may be recognized to fall in their steps, as you plod through falsehoods for others to swallow.  Find a better defense for your lack of faith.  Perhaps it is in Athanasius, that you must seek an end to the schism of SSPX, or do you point me to yet another schismatic, and potential heretic, and such histories?  Perhaps it was Athanasius, as it was St. John of The Cross, as it was the female saint—his contemporary—whom brought under The Spanish Inquisition, and charged or investigated as heretics; remained free.  Some personal opinions are better left to themselves, and the wit of Pat Archbold, to label a bishop, an idiot, might be appropriate to the route Marcel Lefebvre had before him:  he could have recognized Pope John Paul II as an idiot, then his own vow to obedience to the same, and been obedient with his own personal opinion intact.  The history of SSPX, at present, is one of schism, with absolutely no authority to perform any ministries—whatsoever—may the course change on this 2012 April 15, that we might see a society wield a greater influence through obedience, and acceptance, of change, that might be a stronger force against all SSPX has justly opposed.  Take no rant.  Stand corrected.

Kristopher:

Read some history.

You mention Pope Benedict: please emulate him. Even he has denied that the SSPX is schismatic.

Pray, all of us, pray pray pray.

By the way, Pope Benedict XVI has clearly stated on more than one occasion that SSPX is not in full communion with Rome, and speaks of the hope that they will return to full communion. (You can verify this by going to the Holy See’s website, vatican.va, and reading the various official statements about SSPX.) “Not in full communion” is the same phrase the Magisterium has used since Vatican II when speaking of Orthodox or Lutherans or anyone else who are not in union with Rome. The Holy Father has thus clearly indicated that SSPX is not currently in union with Rome, and there is a division that must be healed.

Let’s all pray, especially through the intercession of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, to whom the SSPX also are so devoted, that these good and sincere but separated souls come quickly back to Rome!!

If Bishop Fellay brings the SSPX back into the Church, there is nothing more certain than that Bishop Williamson and a good part of the English-speaking SSPX world will go into full-blown schism.

More to the point, Bishop Williamson is at least a material heretic.  In fact, I have never read anything he’s written or heard anything he’s ever said where he didn’t espouse one error or another.  Sadly, he will take many souls with him.

Well, I would like to see SSPX come back into the fold of the Catholic Church because I know some very nice people in it.  They try very hard to live the Faith, to pray, to lead decent lives and uplift society with Godliness and refinement of culture.
I am also concerned that the longer they are separated from Rome, the more weird and off things have a chance of occurring.
As to the Holocaust, I am glad for the posts which clear Bishop Williamson of denying the Holocaust.  I have seen many people think that only Jews were murdered by Nazis, while as many or more Slavs, Catholics and Protestants were murdered.  This dishonors the memory of martyrs like the Evangelical Christian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.  The hysteria to make the Holocaust a “Jewish only” atrocity, is alive and well.  The play The Deputy, slandered Pope Pius XII, who used his own personal fortune to ransom Jews and run an underground railroad in the Vatican for refugees fleeing the Nazi terror.  Anti-Catholicism is perhaps more rampant than anti-Semitism.
There are still Germans alive today who claim that they do not believe that any German soldier would have committed these atrocities.  When we read the Jewish (and other) writers of the days of the Nazi terror, who claimed that the SS were homosexuals as was Hitler, the masculine side of which manifests a despotic or a fanatically obedient personality, then perhaps no heterosexual German soldier would do those things.  All the more reason for joining Rosary Rally’s to pray for the intentions that:  atheistic, despotic communism, Nazism and also homosexuality, leave every civilization in the world!
I am not sure if Lefebvre left the Church or if the Church left him!  At any rate, it started a trend of break-away groups, which is not good.  This is another reason why SSPX should come back to the Church.  Lefebvre had a lot of good and true observations.  Why should Catholics accept interpretation of doctrine which has “developed” so much that it cannot be identified as the Catholic doctrine which has been taught for 2,000 years?  He makes us think.
While most of us accept that pants are simply a style, that there were male and female robes in Jesus day, male and female tunics in the Middle Ages, and male and female styled pants in our modern times, it is good that SSPX raises the question of just how wonderful is the androgynous style of dress, anyways?  Recent articles are observing that the sexually liberated people in our society are not happy and they are showing it by over eating.  It is worth looking at the traditional roles and being-ness of men and women to see why they were so content and so happy.  A little research shows us that traditional peoples were and are healthier and happier than Sugar Blues fast food fanatics and sex-obsesssed peoples.  We should look at what SSPX and like groups have to offer us regarding human fulfillment.

I have prayed very much for the SSPX to be reconciled with the Church and eager to hear news that the SSPX and Holy See have reached an agreement so SSPX can be regularized. This is so much for the good of souls and for the whoel Church. I am under no illusion that this will be smooth sailing thereafter but these will be in a sense good problems to have, the difficulties that go with moving along in the right direction. Conversely, if this falls through I am going to be heartsick… Risen Lord, hear our prayer!

Mouse: “full communion” is a post-conciliar term without theological pedigree. It makes about as much sense as “fully pregnant.” It will be a term that will be a passing phenomenon—a footnote in the history of deficient theology.

Kathleen Wagner: your attitude (“What mystifies me is why anyone wants these people back.”)truly bespeaks the quality of the much-vaunted “civilization of love” of your post-conciliar world. Thank you for making that clear.

Thank you Elise and Elizabeth D.

Sean North, perhaps Pope Benedict XVI will be provided the unfortunate opportunity of declaring SSPX to be in schism, after April 15th.  After over twenty years, it will be good, that a decision is done.  There should no longer be any confusion about the matter, for all the ambiguity, that makes the catholic faith beautiful.  Emulation of Pope Benedict XVI is hardly necessary to be corrected on the technicality of schism, or not, but the warning is for an imminent danger, rather than a distant cloud on the horizon, as far as I can see.  Full communion is not an option for those in the church, but I am wrong:  confession, then full communion.  There is a separation between SSPX, and Rome, the two exist apart from each other.  That’s the main point.  Slicing and dicing what this is and what this is not is like arguing for an empty chair of St. Peter.  What do you wish:  an infallible declaration on the teaching of Athanasius?  What council is there to support it.

from Bill Foley

Magisterium

In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power over the universal Church, the Roman Pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia. These, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors. (Second Vatican Council—Decree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops in the Church, number 9)

And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the force and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible teaching authority, this sacred Synod again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.  (Second Vatican Council—Lumen Gentium,  number 18)

For in virtue of his office, that is, as vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme, and universal power over the Church. (Lumen Gentium—number 22)

This religious submission of will and of mind must be shown in a special way to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. That is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known chiefly either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. (Lumen Gentium—number 25)

This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church. (Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis in 1950, Number 21)

The very doctrine of Catholic doctors derives its authority from the Church. Hence we should abide by the authority of the Church rather than by that of an Augustine or a Jerome or any doctor whatever. (Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologiae II, IIQ. 10, A.12)

If we begin to doubt the authority of the Pope of Rome, it is not, just a single bishop who totters, it is the whole episcopate. (St. Avitus, Bishop of Vienne, France, c. 525 AD)

We must love the popes ... their counsels and even their wishes must be a command to us. My sons, regard as enemies of the faith those who belittle the pope’s authority or who try to minimize the obedience and respect due to his teachings and directives. (St. John Bosco)

If the author is somewhat unfavorable to the pope, don’t read the book. (St. John Bosco)

Do not ever forget these three things: devotion to the Blessed Sacrament, devotion to Mary Help of Christians, and devotion to the Holy Father. (St. John Bosco)

Even if the pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our father is condemned, for that which we do to him we do to Christ; we honor Christ if we honor the pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the pope. (St. Catherine of Siena)

If the Lord should grant me a long life and the opportunity of being a useful priest in His Church, I want it to be said of me, and I shall be prouder of this than of any other title, that I was a priest of lively simple faith, solidly behind the Pope and for the Pope, always, even in matters not yet officially defined, in every detail of seeing and feeling. (Blessed Pope John XXIII: Journal of a Soul, page 144.)

Thank you my God for that love for the Pope you have placed in my heart. (Saint Josemaria Escriva)

Love for the Roman Pontiff must be in us a beautiful passion, for in him we see Christ. (Saint Josemaria Escriva)

It is only in harmony with the magisterium of today that magisterial texts of yesterday may be rightly understood.

SSPX on-line #2
I might also add that liberals do not, that I have seen, attend Tridentine Masses.  Therefore, they should not be upset by a group of people which they do not even see.  It is very upsetting to me that such liberal groups who claim to be so loving, only extend that love to themselves!
Let us look at a Jew, a very famous one.  His name was Yahudi Menuhin, a great violinist.  He called the Tridentine Mass “a great cultural treasure” and wrote a letter to Pope Paul VI to please not suppress the Tridentine Mass in England, so that it would continue.  Now here is a “liberal” who knew that love did not just stay in one group!
I think that there is also some confusion between free-Masonry and Judaism.  The real Judaism which looks towards the day of a Savior who, as transcendent Lord, restores souls to God and brings souls to heaven, is not to be confused with those who would control the world through despotism and a repressive banking system which would control the world’s economics.  Free-Masonry is not Judaism, though unfortunately, many Jewish lawyers and bankers have fallen into the trap of serving the despotic monster which is the innermost circle of fee-Masonry.  This unfortunate confusion results in anti-Semitism.  It should be noted that most Masons do not believe there is any such inner circle and are upright citizens and humanitarians.  They should look further.  Traditionalists are often very aware of the dangers of free-Masonry, yet some do not research it adequately.

Hi.  The above comment about Free-Masonry was posted by Elise, and not Kris.  Sorry.  I am new to this site and did not fill in the identity information for this post.

Thanks a lot, Bill Foley.

You see, the problem is that we have heretics all over the world in “full communion” with Rome, denying the historicity of Adam and hence of original sin, denying the Resurrection, the perpetual virginity
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Real Presence of Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar, the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture, the profound immorality and perversion of abortion and homosexual pseudo-“marriage”................and then we have the SSPX challenging a very few certain doctrines, first advanced in ambiguous terms at the Council, never proclaimed as definitions with the solemn magisterial authority of these others.

This whole issue is much more difficult than you would like to have us believe, but then again, Pope Benedict Himself has labored to both remit the excommunications of the SSPX bishops, and also to restore the Traditional Latin Mass (oh how many bishops in “full communion” have labored with Pharisaical ingenuity to frustrate the mind of the Pope on *that* one!)

Yes.

I think the sourpusses on both sides of this are going to be howling in rage when Tradition returns to the Church’s bosom in the form of the 500 unshakably Roman Catholic priests of the Fraternal Society of St. Pius X (may it please God to make it so!).

A whole lot of heretics and apostates in “perfect” and “imperfect” union will weep and howl, and quite understandably so.

Bill Foley:

The SSPX has never doubted the authority of the Bishop of Rome. In fact, they’ve constantly urged him to use his authority to teach, govern and sanctify as the Bishops of Rome have always done. Unfortunately, the post-conciliar papacy has relegated itself to a “first among equals” status by ignoring the primatial powers of the Holy See and submitting to the post-conciliar concept of “collegiality.”

Although I would not call Bishop Williamson an idiot, his idiotic assertion that there was no holocaust is reason enough for all people to not follow his teaching.  Just because he is a bishop and a successor of the apostles does not make what he professes impeccable let alone infallible in any matter other than what he faithfully teaches regarding valid Church dogma.  Even then, what he teaches is only to be respectfully believed when it agrees with the Church’s Magisterium which he alone does not constitute.  He and a few other bishops became defiant renegade heretics and have taken many others along with themselves in arrogant disobedience.  I was 18 when Vatican II began and I felt the rug was pulled out from under me when so many changes occurred in the Church at that time.  I do not agree with everything the Church teaches and often have great sympathy for many things the SSPX holds but I have to humbly submit in obedience to the Church’s valid authority.  Otherwise, how can the Church be one?

THANK YOU BILL FOLEY!!!

Lives7: I like what you said.

To Hugh Embriaco, I thank you for your comments:
“If Bishop Fellay brings the SSPX back into the Church, there is nothing more certain than that Bishop Williamson and a good part of the English-speaking SSPX world will go into full-blown schism.
More to the point, Bishop Williamson is at least a material heretic.  In fact, I have never read anything he’s written or heard anything he’s ever said where he didn’t espouse one error or another.  Sadly, he will take many souls with him.”

I think there is a great deal of truth here. Fellay will bring with him the best, and what the Church needs most. But sadly Williamson will lead away those who need the Church most.

They won’t sign.

Someone asked about heresy by SSPX. I know some quite well. They HATE JPII, write horrible books about him, and WILL NOT attend norvus ordo Masses.  They find them illicit.  They will not say as much to your face, but converse with them long enough and it will slip out.

Best to them.  Not to worry, as they will sign nothing that isn’t exactly what they want. They feel the ARE the church, we are not, and we are the ones that need to conform to them, no the other way around.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14021

Bill Foley, your post is excellent and I also thank you.  God bless you - you are doing His work.  I would like to reiterate that although all the Sacraments administered by SSPX priests are illicit (sinful), the attempted Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony are not only illicit, they are also INVALID - that is, SSPX priests and bishops do not have the power to effect them.  This is an important fact that the SSPX hierarchy hides from its members.

The Novus Ordo may be terribly deficient as a prayer and even in some respects dangerous to the Faith, but once you start teaching that it is invalid as a Mass and that the Consecration of the Most Blessed Sacrament at a Novus Ordo Mass is also invalid, you have slipped into the realm of heresy, pure and simple.  This is exactly what the SSPX teaches, although they try to keep this out of print and to hide it from outsiders as best they can.  Their bishops teach this, and their membership, at all levels, believe this - and many other heresies, as well.  They remained in schism too long… and schism always inevitably leads to heresy.

Meanwhile, millions of well-meaning Catholics who are interested in their salvation and growing in holiness are concerned with just trying not to break the 10 Commandments, get to mass each week, and teaching our kids some semblance of the Catholic faith that will stay with them, etc.

The SSPX are kooks, interested in conspiracy theories and monitoring themselves, each other, and the entire Church in pharisaical fashion. Bishop Williamson even promotes to his followers that the movie “The Sound of Music” is evil, and I know of locals here in the good ole’ US of A that have repeated this belief, along with all other manner of crazy stuff.

Let them leave. They’re all just champing at the bit to claim that they are sedevacanists, anyway. Check out the Fisheaters Forum for proof - some of them have recently even said over there that they, quote, “can’t wait to be excommunicated” for being in the SSPX if no deal is reached. Another even said they were willing to go to - get this! - HELL if it meant that they wouldn’t have to be in heaven with a Church that followed the Novus Ordo.

Let them leave.

Thanks be to God it is being reported that Bishop Fellay has signed the Profession of Faith that was given to him by the Holy See!  The schism may be coming to an end, or at least it is the beginning of a long road back.  Once the SSPX returns to the Church, their errors will be brought into sharp focus, and they will be able to be corrected by the Holy Pontiff and the Magisterium.  Praise be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!

Thank you for this article… I am happy yet cringing at the same time.  Having had personal experience with SSPX people as well as ‘Trads’, I love the respect for tradition and keeping to truth… I don’t love, however, the lack of simple charity and mercy I have witnessed, which to me trumps all the scrupulosity.  I’m annoyed at liberalism in the wider church as well, however, the pendulum can indeed swing the other way, to Pharisaical behavior, which I find hideous.  If these groups can remember that there are TWO greatest commandments, which includes our neighbor (a sign that we really love God), I’m all for it… If they remain somewhat cult-like, it will not bear good fruit.  However, I trust our pole and hierarchy to sort all of it out ;) blessings, shalimamma at life victorious dot com.

Amen to Catherine of Siena in the comments as well as many others who are speaking truth and reality… If you have real life experience among these groups, you most likely see what we are talking about ;). Also, I meant ‘Pole’ and not ‘pole’ in my comment above… Autocorrect!  ;). Blessings, shalimamma at lifevictorious dot com.  (PS My website speaks of my personal experience of being ‘ousted’ from a Trad community while being an ‘innocent’ and faithful Catholic, but not ‘good enough’ for them ;)

P-o-p-e!!!!  It is still writing pole!  ;)

The very bottom line in all of this is, who is going to be the Magisterium?  The bishops and priests of the SSPX have said that certain documents within Vatican II are a break in doctrine.

The Holy Father, directly and through his dicasteries, have said that the documents are not a break, and that they have to be interpreted in light of and consistent with the doctrines of the Church prior to V2.

And that is the substance of what Cardinal Levada, on behalf of the Pope,  has given them to sign - the ground rules of interpreting doctrine.  The substance of that is a Magesterial teaching - how doctirine is to be interpreted.

So, back to the first point; the issue will be whether Rome has the Magisterial teaching office, or the SSPX has it.

I think it would be unwise to regularize the SSPX. They will again become a problem for the Church sometime down the road.

Responding to:  Posted by Catherine of Siena on Friday, Apr 13, 2012 12:02 AM
WOW!!  Thank you Catherine of Siena!  Too many posters believe the Catholic Church began in 1962.  They know not what has been “handed on” and that it cannot evolve into new truths.  I wish so much I could know more of your back ground in order to understand why you speak so eloquently of Holy Mother Church and her doctrines.  I’m grateful other posters also see the contradictions and I don’t mean to slight them by not mentioning their names.  The SSPX must not sign any agreements. 

I should have read further and I want to retract my last post.  I made a terrible mistake and if I could get it removed I would appreciate it.  I jumped to wrong conclusions on some postings.  I do not desire, however,  to change my position that the SSPX should not sign any agreements.

St. Athanasias was excommunicated by a Roman Cardinal and the excommunication was supported by the Pope and reafirmed by a subsequent Pope and Rome - for 20 years St. Athanasias was hunted down and his faithful Catholics protected him even with the sword. St. Athanasias is now not only a Saint, but a Father of the Church who is attributed to saving the faith against the Arian heresy wherein nearly every Catholic Bishop at the time fell into this heresy. The case of Archbishop Lefebvre is very similar. The SSPX professes to believe and keep all that the Church has taught since the time of Christ and refuses to accept any doctrine or teaching that contradicts what the Church has taught previously. Vatican Council I, taught Infallibly that the Holy Ghost was given to the Church to guard the deposit of the faith, not to reveal any new doctrines of beliefs. The Church has taught in the past that all the doctrines and dogmas of the Church are to be believed as they were declared and believed in the past. The Syllabus of Errors of Blessed Pius IX was believed to be an Infallible document by all Theologians: However, Pope Benedict has said that Vatican II was an “anti-syllabus”.
Marie-Julie Jahenny, Stigmatist-Mystic and victim soul, who has recieved the approval of the local Ordinary, said in 1902 in reference to one of her revelations from heaven that a “New Mass” would come that would be “Odious - hateful” by God; Blessed Anna Catherine Emmerich was told by Our Lord that a “New Mass” would come that would be “Impious”.
In 2000, Father Bollinger, German Theologian/Seminary Professor in Brazil, personal friend of then Cardinal Ratzinger and H.H.Pope JPII, frequent guest and well known in the Vatican, after concelebrating a Mass with Cardinal Ratzinger, ask him after Mass to tell him to his face if in fact the whole 3rd Secret of Fatima had been revealed, as what Card. Ratzinger had told Father Bollinger previously was at odds with the Vaticans declaration of the messages contents, to which Cardinal Ratzinger said to his friend in German: “That in the Third Secret, Our lady warns that there will be an evil council.  And She warned against the changes; She warned against making changes in the liturgy; changes in the Mass. This is explicitly set forth in the Third Secret” - ref: Fatima Crusader #80,pg 32 & #92, pg. 7. Cardinal Mario Luigi Caippi, personal Theologian to three popes, stated in his letter to Professor Baumgartner that in the Third Secret it is revealed, among other htings, that the great apostasy in the Churc will begin at the top.
Catholic Mystics and Saints have warned from the messages and visions given them by Our Lady and Our Lord that a great Apostacy will come to the Church that the faith will be extinquished in both the clergy and the hierarchy, that both will deny Our Lord and that a great “chastisement” is to come to both the hierarchy, clergy and the World.
In Sept, 2011, the Catholic Mystic and Stigmatist, Sister Elena Aiello,d.1961, was Beatified by H.H. Benedict XVI; in her revelations and visions she was shown that Russia would attack and overrun all of Europe and attack America with her “secret” armies, that cities, provinces and whole land areas would disappear in massive earthquakes, that in 1959 Our Lord told her that the world was worse than it was previous to the great flood and that Our Lady has been holding His Justice back but not much longer. At Akita, Japan in 1976, Our Lady warned of a comin chastisement that is beyond anyones imagination in its severity, never before seen or imagined, that there would be a revolution in the world and in the Church. Google “WW3 Prophecies and Visions from Central Europe” from Catholic Mystics. God is going to first let our enemies punish both the Church and the world for the loss of faith and the general apostacy now happening, and when all seems lost, when both the Church and the world seem defeated, God will intervene. Following this coming chastisement will be the greatest period of peace ever seen by man for a few generations from Our Lady’s promise, after Russia is consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
So, realize that the SSPX geatest sin, is that it believes all that the Church has taught and denies all that contradicts what the Church has taught in the past.

Just FYI: Bl. Tomasuccio’s prophecy was regarding the Western Schism that was resolved in 1411:

http://www.2012hoax.org/forum/t-259611/blessed-tomasuccio-prophecy

This is a talk presented October 2011.  It is long but worth listending to on this major topic.
http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/MiscArchives/FrLav_TheOrdinaryMagisteriumAndDevotionToThePope_FatimaConference_2011.mp3

Seems like this SSPX is pulling the sheeps clothing off of the catholic chuch.Of course the CC will disavow any of the SSPX actions. The CC has spent lots of effort erasing its past.

I am a college student who was invited by a friend to attend a Latin Mass. As a result I have spent the last year comparing the pre and post Vatican teaching of the Mass, sacraments, interpretation of scripture, role of the priest, meaning of the Kingdom of God and the Mystical Body of Christ just to name a few. This has led to a crisis in my faith.

If we are the one, holy, and apostolic church founded by Christ, through the apostles, how could the church before Vatican 2 be so wrong in her teachings? Yes the churches dogmas remain, but the definitions are rewritten and reinterpreted and in some cases are the opposite of what the early teachings were.  How can the church rewrite what it taught for 2000 years? How do I know which teachings I must follow to remain faithful to the church?

This semester I have a Marxist professor teaching at the Catholic University which I attend. My papers require me to defend the Marxist ideology and daily she espouses anti -American, anti -capitalism, and anti-faith remarks in class discussions. Is this part of the new Catholic culture, which allows a philosophy contrary to our faith to form the minds and conscience of those attending. I never would have guessed that Marxism would be welcomed at a Catholic University. Over the last month I have found many examples of Marxism and other distasteful subjects offered at Catholic Universities.

My question is who is the Catholic Church and what do we really believe? The old church was consistent in their teachings. The new teaching have removed the miracles of Jesus, original sin, angels are non-existent, Genesis 1-10 are just stories. If God gave His Church no consistent truth, then our faith means nothing. What are we to believe?

Andrew,  How astute you are.  Don’t give up your search, and most of all ask Our Blessed Mother to lead you and protect you.  Pray your Rosary daily.  Please don’t take these directions lightly.  “To Jesus through Mary”.
Keep in mind Christ’s Church does not teach error or it is not the True Faith.  Christ taught His Apostles what was to be handed on, safeguarded and promulgated to the world.  Truth and all that has been defined by the infallible teachings of the Pontiffs do not evolve into new definitions.  Also discussions and compromises with those outside Holy Mother Church are to be avoided according to the divine wisdom taught by the Pontiffs.  I will pray for your journey.

Andrew, the Catholic Church is both divine and human. Any institution, run by human beings, that exists within the Church is capable of error (such as a teacher as you mentioned).  But the true teaching authority of the Church has not changed in its essence or in its dogmatic teachings. I am so sorry for your crisis in Faith & I will pray for you, as one who has “been there”.  I am a convert, who came to the Church in 1971, attending only the Latin Mass.  Today, I attend both…or I should say a variety, as there are also Eastern rite Catholic churches from antiquity, whose Mass (or Divine Liturgy, as they call it) looks very different from either the Ordinary or Extraordinary forms of the Latin rite.  It’s all good, but I’ve lived to say: The Church is still the Church!

Andrew: Hang in there. Do what you need to do to get through your classes, but don’t buy the lies. Report error/un-Catholic teaching to your bishop, and pray for your teacher’s conversion.

As for the Church pre/post-Vatican II: don’t believe everything you read/hear. Some wanted certain changes, so they “found” those changes in “the spirit of Vatican II”. Remember: there have been heresies since the very beginning. Stay close to the Pope, and you’ll be in the right place.

I recommend Fr. Z for answers to specific questions: wdtprs.com - he does a fantastic job of explaining things, and has a keen understanding of what the Church has been through since Vatican II, and how it has hurt people like you. He is in lock-step with the Holy Father, and that’s where we all need to be.

Pax et bonum.

Margaret Mary Meyers you said, “But the true teaching authority of the Church has not changed in its essence or in its dogmatic teachings.”  That’s a statement that surely you must be able to back up or you would not have said it.  Can you?  Do you believe in the infallibility of the Vicar of Christ?

Minty, First of all, yes, I believe in the infallibility of the Pope AS it is taught by the Catholic Church, and I believe in all other doctrines AS they have been defined and explained by the Church. Secondly, the burden of proof is not on me to “back up what I have said”. I base what I say on many things but most importantly on what Jesus said, “Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

If anyone can explain Catholic Dogma listed under The Catholic Church # 20 ; Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation. It would be greatly appreciated.

CCC #804 states “One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. All men are called to the new People of God, so that in Christ, men may from one family and one People of God.

CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

CCC 842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:  All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.
It seems to me that the three CCC statements go against the dogma of the Catholic Church which states membership of the Church is necessary for salvation. If I have understood this incorrectly please explain how. Allah and the Blessed Trinity interchangeable, equal in power? I was taught they were not. Are we to assume in these statements other religions expected to convert to Catholicism before their death?

I received the New St. Joseph Peoples Prayer Book at Confirmation. The title caught my eye once I began studying my faith. There is a section called Prayers from Other Religions. The first sentence; The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council acknowledge the things we have in common with our separated brethren and urge all Catholics to esteem the Christian riches found in them. There are beautiful prayers from the Syrian Orthodox Church,Coptic Liturgy and many more. What is troubling and confusing are prayers from the Religions of the East. Prayers of Self-Offering a Buddhist prayer, Chaldean Incantation, Hindu Liturgy prayers, Moslem Prayers from prayers from Koran. On page 508 Prayer of the 99 Names of God, a Moslem Prayer from the Koran.

The Peoples Prayer Book has Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur on the front page, assuring authentic Catholic teaching. It sure doesn’t mean much. Does this fall in the category of those who.compromises with those outside Holy Mother Church? Is there good reading material that explains our connection with other religions? If this is the new church teaching I must reconcile with it.

Thank you to all who gave great suggestions to my first comment. My faith journey continues.
Andrew

Paul Zummo, Below is the Catholic Church teaching on creation in response to your April 13 comment. I thought it was interesting and I learned a lot. 
What Does the Catholic Church Teach about Origins?
·  God created everything “in its whole substance” from nothing (ex nihilo) in the beginning. (Lateran IV; Vatican Council I)
·  Genesis does not contain purified myths. (Pontifical Biblical Commission 19091)
·  Genesis contains real history—it gives an account of things that really happened. (Pius XII)
·  Adam and Eve were real human beings—the first parents of all mankind. (Pius XII)
·  Polygenism (many “first parents”) contradicts Scripture and Tradition and is condemned. (Pius XII; 1994
Catechism, 360, footnote 226: Tobit 8:6—the “one ancestor” referred to in this Catechism could only be Adam.)
·  The “beginning” of the world included the creation of all things, the creation of Adam and Eve and the Fall (Jesus Christ [Mark 10:6]; Pope Innocent III; Blessed Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus).
·  The body of Eve was specially created from a portion of Adam’s body (Leo XIII). She could not have originated via evolution.
·  Various senses are employed in the Bible, but the literal obvious sense must be believed unless reason dictates or necessity requires (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus).
·  Adam and Eve were created upon an earthly paradise and would not have known death if they had remained obedient (Pius XII).
·  After their disobedience of God, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden. But the Second Person of the Trinity would subsequently pay the ransom for fallen man (Nicene Creed).
·  Original Sin is a flawed condition inherited from Adam and Eve (Council of Trent).
·  The Universe suffers in travail ever since the sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve. (Romans 8, Vatican
Council I).
·  We must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously on a matter of faith or
morals (Council of Trent and Vatican Council I).
·  All the Fathers who wrote on the subject believed that the Creation days were no longer than 24-hour-days.
(Consensus of the Fathers of the Church)
·  The work of Creation was finished by the close of Day Six, and nothing completely new has since been
created—except for each human rational soul at conception (Vatican Council I)
·  St. Peter and Christ Himself in the New Testament confirmed the global Flood of Noah. It covered all the then high mountains and destroyed all land dwelling creatures except eight human beings and all kinds of non-human creatures aboard the Ark (Unam Sanctam, 1302)
·  The historical existence of Noah’s Ark is regarded as most important in typology, as central to Redemption. (1566 Catechism of the Council of Trent)
·  Evolution must not be taught as fact, but instead the pros and cons of evolution must be taught. (Pius XII, Humani Generis)
·  Investigation into human “evolution” was allowed in 1950, but Pope Pius XII feared that an acceptance of evolutionism might adversely affect doctrinal beliefs.
For more information contact:
The Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation
952 Kelly Rd., Mt. Jackson, VA 22842, (549) 856-8453

Andrew, you said, “I have spent the last year comparing the pre and post Vatican teaching of the Mass, sacraments, interpretation of scripture, role of the priest, meaning of the Kingdom of God and the Mystical Body of Christ just to name a few. This has led to a crisis in my faith”.  ‘Andrew, You have been awarded a very special grace and unlike most, you are accepting that grace.  Don’t let the vultures steal it.  You can and you will in time defend the True Faith with the assistance of Our Blessed Mother. Keep a Rosary with you wherever you go, wear a Brown Scapular, read “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis DeMontfort.  Select a Martyr or Saint from a century or two ago and study them closely.  Or another very, very good daily reading is “Divine Intimacy” by Fr. Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen, O.C.D.  The reading of the book is on line.  You are on to some major wonderful discoveries.  Don’t look to the left or the right; keep your eye on being all that God created you to be.  Thank Him for the bumps, the jeering, and the mocking as you decrease and God increases in your life.  Being a Catholic is not an easy road but it is the only road with a firm foundation.  Make no compromises.  The last few sentences of the Book of Numbers has a wonderful blessing and I pray that for you.

Andrew, you said, “If this is the new church teaching I must reconcile with it”.  This is not the True Faith.  Catholics do not compromise nor consort in worship services with others.  Catholics do not seek truth outside the Church.  It is only the teaching authority, the Magisterium of the Church that defines infallible doctrine on matters of faith and morals without contradiction.  No pope corrects or contradicts a previous pope in these matters because of the infallible spirit promised to the Vicar of Christ.  Protestants have tried and failed miserably to find a time when this was done.  Truth is connected to Sacred Tradition.  There is no interruption to Truth; there are no new definitions, no new meanings.  Catholics do not accept what contradicts the many ex cathedra pronouncements by the Pontiffs.  Beware of those who “claim to come” in the name of the Lord.  Ask Our Blessed Mother for discernment in these matters. She is the Mother of us all who will guide you.