You are a full blown idiot.

Nobody “imposes” an abortion on you.  That’s YOUR decision,  I would never get an abortion, EVER!

But I am pro-choice because I believe people should be able to make up their own minds when it comes to personal things such as bringing a child into the world, I understand if you disagree with that logic but its how I feel.

Prohibiting someone from doing something because you don’t agree with their lifestyle is imposing.

You can’t help being homosexual, if that were the case nobody would choose to go through the ridicule and prejudice. 

You can choose whether not to have an abortion.

Your logic that allowing people to have an abortion is the same as disallowing a homosexual from counsel, is completely misguided and makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody ever has, or will, force you to have an abortion, so it’s not imposing.

Why don’t you learn something before spouting your ignorant beliefs.

To Froggblogg
You should never start a rebuttal or case for yourself by calling someone else a names. If you have to attack someone personally before making an argument you undermine yourself. Many women who commit abortions feel incredible “imposing: pressure from peers, boyfriends, and family. It is rarely ever an informed clear choice. With your logic I should think unwise to prohibit murder, theft, battery, rape, running red lights, because it is against the person’s personal choice. The case mentioned above is clearly a double standard as Matthew states.

DEAR MATTHEW:

By profession I am an HIV Prevention Specialist for the West Virginia Bureau for Public Health. Part of my job involves doing HIV testing and counseling; I also teach other social workers and health care professionals how to do the same. The definition of HIV prevention counseling is to assist clients in making behavior changes that can reduce their risk for acquiring or transmitting HIV. But counseling of ANY kind relies on certain skills and concepts, and one of the three important “Counseling Concepts” is this:

MANAGE YOUR OWN DISCOMFORT.

Anyone who does HIV prevention counseling is invariably going to be confronted with sexual behaviors and drug use behaviors that make us uncomfortable. But if we are unable to manage that discomfort, the counseling session will not be effective. If one of my clients feels that I’m being judgmental and sanctimonious, rather than caring and empathetic, that’s going to drive a big barrier between me and that person.

Julea Ward is entitled to her views about homosexuality. But COUNSELING is the wrong profession for her, as any professional counselor will have you know.

The FrogBlogg: Abortion is always imposed on the child.

You didn’t point out any legitimate flaws in Matt’s logic. In fact from your response I have strong doubts that you even read what he wrote. And you kind of jumped all over the spectrum from abortion to homosexuality and back, so I’ll try to respond with just one question of logic: you claim you are ‘pro-choice’ because you believe people should be able to make up their own minds when it comes to ‘personal things’. If this is so, can people make up their minds about stealing, murderding, raping, abusing, or driving as fast as they want in their car? No. That’s why we have laws. Laws exist so that people can’t ‘personally choose’ injustice.

Also, how do you define ‘personal things’? I assume you mean things that only affect one person, but in truth nothing does. Especially abortion. At the very least it affects two.

Finally in regards to homosexuality, neither Matt nor the Church teach that it is wrong to be homosexual or have homosexual tendencies. Neither would teach that in all cases people ‘choose’ to be homosexual. However, it is wrong to choose to engage in homosexual acts. The case in question here is not a rejection of someone’s homosexual inclinations, but of the acceptance of an active homosexual lifestyle.

Matt’s reasoning is clear, and until you disprove one of his premises or his logic, you cannot believe him to be illogical.

>> Prohibiting someone from doing something because you don’t agree with their lifestyle is imposing.

Is this like the judge/school prohibiting the student from finishing her degree because the judge/school doesn’t agree with the student’s values?

You have the option NOT to become a professional if your beliefs get in the way.

Refusing to counsel is directly in conflict with the chosen profession of this person.

Keep your religion at home. Not in school or at work. OR… just don’t go into a field where rational critical and KINDNESS for ALL PEOPLE matters.

Homosexuals are not the only people that practice unsafe types of sex.

Wow, there’s a lot of this going around right now isn’t there? Seems to me that the counseling student did the best thing she could in the situation. She felt she couldn’t counsel the patient that a homosexual lifestyle was healthy so she removed herself from the situation. Isn’t that what anyone should do that has some sort of conflict of interest? That doesn’t seem to be grounds for removal from the program.

Unfortunately, she’ll likely run across this again and again in her practice if she does decide to become a counselor…unless she has some type of Christian practice where she could advise people to adopt a different lifestyle. I have a friend who’s a counselor and he tells me that people don’t want to hear they need to change their behavior, they only want to help to feel better about what they’re doing and the effects of it.

Michael: Keep your religion at home? The same could be ordered of irreligion.

“Homosexuals are not the only people that practice unsafe types of sex.” It’s not the “physical safety” of homosexual acts that is in question, but the morality, the “safety of soul”.

FrogBlogg - you are helping to make my point by giving a perfect example of the flawed logic I’m talking about.

An abortion imposes death upon an innocent human being by its very definition. That’s quite an imposition.

And nobody is saying homosexuals should be refused counseling - at all! That’s ridiculous. But a counselor should not be forced to counsel somebody according to somebody else’s personal values. And it is absurd that any respectable counseling university program would impose on its students a requirement that they counsel homosexuals in a way that affirms homosexual activity. The fact that this is seen as “healthy” for homosexuals is another matter all together. But at the very least a counselor should be able to choose not to counsel in a way that goes against their conscience.

And the scary part is the views out there like Michael’s (above) who believe they can impose their own personal values as to what personal values somebody must have to practice “professionally.” His answer is…well don’t become a counselor if you don’t believe homosexual activity is healthy. That’s absurd and the biggest imposition of personal values onto others of all.

Yes Matthew! That is the issue at hand. This young woman has had the biggest imposition of “personal values” placed upon her by saying she can’t study to become a counselor unless she affirms something antithetical to her belief system. So Christian values are an imposition even when the person chooses to take themselves out of the equation to avoid conflict. That makes perfect sense.

To Chuck.
Manage Your Discomfort? Or what.
An individual that has issues of conscience should not have to subordinate their beliefs. Having strong beliefs should not preclude them from a career or make them inferior or incompetent in any way.
There are ethical ways of dealing with this sort of thing and that is what she did.
It sounds like the school did a poor job of teaching a student how to handle a complex situation. It sounds like an ultimatium was presented to her, compromise your beliefs and conform to ours. What is the value in that?
What about a medical profesional that has issues with abortion or contraception. Should they be forced to change their beliefs. Are they any less qualified to practice becouse of their beliefs?

There are absolutes that a person has to believe in to be a Christian.  Homosexuality (or in the student’s case forced exposure to it) is not an absolute,it becomes a violation of her First Amendment rights, and in fact the University was as guilty as they claim she was, if not more so by forcing her to change or “modify her beliefs.”
Christianity is bearing witness to Christ’s words and deeds.  No where did I read that she was going to advocate her own.
Do we have principles, or should we abandon them as some of the writers have expressed?
Where is Freedom of Choice?

I am a therapist, and 1 of the questions/answer on the final comprehensive exam of my entire masters degree was something to the effect of: if you feel you cannot be objective due to possible conflict of interest, recuse yourself and refer to another therapist. So it doesnt make sense - the ruling, and obviously the judge doesnt know the stipulations of a therapist. What if you are becoming a Catholic therapist?  Unfortunately I have had to keep my points of view to myself during my college years until I have a license to advertise I am a catholic therapist.

To FrogBlogg-you don’t have to be a woman to have abortion “imposed” on you. The doctors and other medical professionals who are forced to perform abortions or dispense contraception or face malpractice suits or job loss have abortion imposed upon them. In the state of Ohio there is a bill that would allow the state to close down a hospital for not dispensing the “morning after” pill. I disagree with the idea that abortions are not imposed upon anyone-ask the women in China about that one, even in the good old USA women have had abortionist perform abortions on them even as they objected having their mouths covered to muffle their screams. There are several criminal cases going on throughout the US right now where that has happened. This student did not feel that the homosexual lifestyle is “healthy” and instead of lying to her patients she took the path which was it was better to not lie to the her patients or herself.

As a medical caregiver she has the right to recuse herself from performing tasks that she feels contradict her morals. Its the same for those doctors that refuse to perform abortions. Should we force people that feel it morally wrong to perform such tasks?

In America, the govt or the judge has already decided what is right and what is wrong. Even if you believe that you should live by your conscience, they will not admit that, they want you to form your conscience in accordance with their decisions.  Yet we call ourselves a free and democratic country.  The most important subject of dispute is the sex organ and its use The govt does not accept the use of the organ as per conscience.

As I wrote over at OSV, I’m reminded of a certain candidate for municipal office here in NYC last year.  The office for which he was running is second in the line of succession for the mayor’s office.  And this candidate said he wanted every responsibility of the office except that one.  If the mayor died, he didn’t want to replace him.  That, to me, was reason enough not vote for this particular candidate.

What we (as Catholics) need is a bunch of practicing Moslems, whose moral beliefs often parallel ours, to institute parallel cases. My bet is the Moslems would win their cases. We then protest our rulings to a superior court on the grounds that the lower courts have discriminated on the basis of religion.

The argument that no one imposes an abortion on you is the one that’s idiotic; it’s like arguing that no one imposes slavery on you because it’s your decision whether or not to own a slave.
My birth was induced—I was aborted—close to 60 years ago.  Luckily for me, my mother didn’t want to kill me.  With partial birth abortions, the birth is induced, yet the doctor blocks the exit of the baby’s head so that he can legally kill a struggling baby.

It is impossible to keep religion out of the home.  Religion is based on faith, and faith drives everything a person thinks does and says, in public and in private.  At least that is the way with me.

Too bad she got kicked out of counseling though I admit, she should’ve known there might have been moral barriers if not in school once she got in the workforce.

This would’ve been an excellent way to evangelize moral verses immoral behaviors and how such behaviors not only affects one’s life but society as a whole.

I believe it is possible to be a counselor and still be faithful to the Church’s teachings.  As there are “more fish in the sea” there are other counseling programs out there. 

Good luck!

Mary Elizabeth, you are brilliant.

Dear Frogblog, You say that it’s a person choice to have an abortion.  You said that you would never get an abortion. I take it that you think that abortion is wrong.  What you are doing is giving a person a right to do a wrong.  It is illogical.  Abe Lincoln, when taking about slavery said the same thing. 
There were those who said that people had the right to have slaves, even though, they thought it was wrong. Abe said you can’t give a person the right to do a wrong.  It is illogical.

Mary Elizabeth—your comment was so true—nobody is going to argue with a Moslem. The judge will side with them every time—almost to the point of condoning “honor”  killings. We Catholics had our chance until our liberal “catholic” politicians and bishops—sold out. Now we are scorned and dismissed as idiots if we uphold our morals.

Giving someone the right to do a wrong is illogical.  Do you know who said that?  Abe Lincoln when he was talking about slavery.  He was answering those who said that they were against slavery, but they gave the right to those who wanted it.

I have to agree with Barbara, I too am a therapist, Social Worker, and while there have been situations that I absolutely have to deal with my discomfort, there are situations that require I recouse myself. I had a major argument with someone in authority once because I absolutely refused to engage in a session with someone who was planning an abortion.
I was told I could not refuse, and said, fine fire me!  They didn’t, and I did was a professional would do, referred elsewhere!

It is unfortunate this woman had to endure this, there seems to be a great deal different than when I was in school. 

God help us, we sure are in quite the mess!

recusedpast participle, past tense of re·cuse (Verb)VerbChallenge (a judge, prosecutor, or juror) as unqualified to perform legal duties because of a possible conflict of interest or lack of…Eg: “a motion to recuse the prosecutor”. (of a judge) Excuse oneself from a case because of a possible conflict of interest or lack of impartiality.

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