Agreed. But I think there are a lot of moderns who don’t even understand the concept of “love the sinner, hate the sin” anymore. It sometimes seems to go beyond “it’s still not fair” to “that makes no sense, no one can hate the sin withOUT hating the sinner.”

That’s part of what it means to be in a post-Christian world. We can’t count on the same background understanding.

Excellent article.  As somebody once said the classical Christian response is “Love the sinner and hate your own sin.”

I couldn’t even watch half of that video.  The grown adults standing up to cheer what some horrible adult coaxed a young child to sing and repeat is just ugly.
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Let’s look at the catechism as you’ve laid it out up there 2358 “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
This is precisely why I disagreed with Pope Benedict’s act to disallow any homosexual from becoming a priest.
#1 it’s unjust discrimination and #2 it follows along with that Christian ignorance that somehow homosexuality = child molester and that is just not the case.  I really felt that that decision was bigoted in that regard.
Particularly for those who really want to live their lives chastely - the priesthood, in the past was good route to avoid all the uncomfortable questioning, uncomfortable circumstances that they would otherwise have to encounter all their lives.  Taking that away from some, made life much more difficult.

point of fact, Oscar Wilde suffered from SSA and was received into the church on his death bed….so the song is provably false.

Things’ll get better when we all learn to appreciate God’s wonderful gift of sex; what it is, for whom and why, why He blessed us with this gift in the first place, the pleasures of and not the wholesale profanation of this magnificent gift, etc., then, and only then, will we be able to express our valid concerns for current events, how we can lean more closely toward chastity thus avoiding sin, teach our children it’s part of the sanctity we strive for.
Wanna try again, Matt? :O)

I hate when people don’t understand that their desire to discriminate against gays and lesbians in denying them civil marriage licenses perpetuates the idea that discrimination in other forms, like this one, is acceptable. I hate that people don’t understand that when the public votes on whether gay people are allowed equal rights, that you are giving a pulpit to this hate. If you don’t like the fact that this kid is singing about homophobes not going to heaven, perhaps you s

It goes back to the fact fundamentalist Protestantism rejects the idea that philosophy has ANY role in religion. Consequently, they do not make the distinction between the sinner and his/her acts like Catholics/Orthodox do.

Paul: There is no discrimination going on—it has less to do with homosexual people or homosexuality as such, than with what marriage is.  I used to believe as you did, and that was actually the hardest part of returning to the Church: I didn’t see any way of loving homosexual people WITHOUT supporting same-sex “marriage”, as I thought opposition to the latter necessarily meant homophobia, and so for a long time I felt guilty, like I was betraying gay people, including friends of mine.  But it doesn’t—it’s everything to do with preserving the definition of a word that has meaning, a meaning for an important pillar of our society, since we all start out as children with some kind of adults taking care of us.  What does marriage mean if the definition is so broad that a same-sex couple counts?  That is, if same-sex couples can get “married”, then who counts as “married” and who does not?  And once that’s established, why is marriage then desirable or necessary at all?  Two people of the same sex can have a perfectly loving and chaste relationship, but it isn’t sexual, it isn’t romantic, and it isn’t a marriage.  That’s perhaps the worst part of this controversy because it’s so subtle you don’t hear about it as much: this culture’s obsession with sex, either at the “free love” end of the spectrum or the “prudish” end, is making us forget that we can have loving, chaste, celibate relationships, and those have nothing to do with being restricted to “one man and one woman”, and it WOULD be discriminatory to deny same-sex pairs that, and we don’t.

I really wish you wouldn’t have used “hate the sin, love the sinner” as a metaphor in this story. Why? Because Fundamentalists use it all TOO often to condemn anything and everyone who disagrees with them. That is not our Catholic catch-line. It’s not a “win-win” as you might have thought in your head when you wrote it. Especially to explain the “Catholic” view on homosexuality. As a Catholic, I only hate my OWN sins, and try to avoid them. I don’t go around hating anything—especially other people’s sins. It’s not MY place to judge; and neither is it yours. When a person commits a mortal sin, it’s between them and God, and sometimes between them and the law. I honestly don’t mind legislation that allows people to wed in civic ceremonies, as long as we aren’t sued, or an attempt on being forced to perform Sacraments we literally cannot do. Same goes for the Orthodox, or even the proper Protestants. Basically anyone that regards marriage as a Sacrament. But I don’t hate any sin other than my own, and I try to love all sinners. Ironically, one of the most inspirational Catholics I have met in my life, as far as spreading Christ’s message—of peace, charity, loving others as He has loved us. . . is a gay man.

The kind of person who would stereotype all Christians as being like that video shows, is probably hostile to Christianity anyway.

It is absolutely absurd to me that anyone believes that denying two consenting adults the right to marry and have a loving sexual relationship is less bigoted than this child. If someone told you that heterosexuality was wrong, and that in order for god to love you you had to remain chaste forever and never have a fulfilling sexual relationship, are you telling me you wouldn’t think they were insane? This is why I am no longer catholic. This whole line of belief is ridiculous, hateful, and as bigoted as that horrible child. You are all ignorant homophobes if you buy into this excrement.

Sadly, it’s not just Protestants who fail to love the sinner and treat them with compassion and respect.  Just this morning I read a Catholic blog that referenced Catholic Charities’ decision to close down rather than place children with same-sex couples as the Church “refusing to hand over an infant to a couple of men who like sticking various and sundry body parts in each other’s rectums.”  Come ON!  That was needlessly insulting, and furthermore besides the point.  Catholic Charities decided not to place children with same sex couples because that would deny the child either a mother or a father.  Homosexuality is more complex than body parts - after all, a heterosexual couple can engage in the same type of acts.  We do the Catholic position no favors by treating so flippantly.  Furthermore just because something is “ewww, yucky” doesn’t mean it is morally wrong.  Childbirth is pretty gross if you think about it.  Basing an argument on this, or being flippant or insulting towards homosexuals only serves to take away our credibility. Why do this when we actually have the riches of Catholic teaching to make the point with? 

And for the record I am a practicing Catholic and accept and live out in my own life the Church’s teaching on sexuality.  My point is that we have got to do a better job at explaining the Church’s teaching on these issues without the barbed comments.

@Carlotta Amen to that. And I’m also a practicing Catholic and accept and live out in my own life the Church’s teaching on sexuality.

Hi!
I recently wrote about the Catholic Church and homossexualism. It’s in brazilian portuguese, but google translator can handle it. I carefully analized another arcticle which dangerously mislead catholics pretending we can accept this behavior, and I absolutely disagree: http://oandarilho01.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/contra-a-apologia-homossexual-pseudo-catolica/

Emma, I think what’s happening here is that you grossly misunderstand Catholic sexual teaching. You are no longer Catholic because you never really understood what Catholicism meant to begin with. Sadly, this is likely not merely your fault, as good catechesis has been sorely missing for the past fifty years in many corners.

Your presentation is based on the falsehood which implies that Catholic teaching against homosexuality exists based solely on the pretense of the same sex attraction in and of itself. In other words, as if we teach against homosexuality merely to persecute the condition itself like bigots. This philosophical falsehood is best illustrated by your assertion, “what if they told you because you were heterosexual and you had to stay chaste…” etc. Homosexuality is not wrong merely because it is homosexuality and we want to teach against it simply to marginalize all homosexual people. It is wrong because under all circumstances of its sexual acts is the gift of life deliberately closed. Homosexual sex is mutual masturbation, nothing more. There is no provision for the possibility of procreation. It is a perversion of God’s sexual economy, ordered to the beautiful gift of life, that He gifted His creatures with.

And here’s news, if you are heterosexual, yes you must stay chaste for life unless you are married God’s way. Remember that we live in a world that says sex is everything. This is neither the Catholic position, nor the position of any human being who acts worthy of his own dignity. Many heterosexuals in the Church remain chaste their whole lives, and not all of them are even clergy. God teaches that in order to enjoy the gift of sex, we must do so in such a way that makes us full gifts to each other. It must be a purely unselfish offering in its intent, purpose, and execution. To be married God’s way means to be open to the gift of life. This means that contraception, abortion, in-vitro fertilization, sterilization, etc are all intrinsic evils. Homosexuality falls into this camp (as an intrinsic evil) because it, like contraception and sterilization is deliberately hostile to the procreative element of the sexual embrace, and separates the act of conception from the self-giving gift of sex. The sexual act must be ordered to life, which means that any and all sexual acts that are not sinful must necessarily be ordered to what are normally the conditions present for the bringing forth of new life.

By the way, sterility has nothing to do with this. A married couple who is sterile may still enjoy the fullness of the sexual embrace because they are not deliberately closed to the gift of life, and the sexual act in and of itself remains ordered to life (whereas the homosexual act is always closed to life and never harbors the potential for it whatsoever). Sterility is the unintended exception to the norm, but does not compromise the fact that heterosexual sex in and of itself is still intrinsically ordered to life and homosexual sex is still never ordered to life, but rather, intrinsically ordered against life and toward hedonism. The happenstance of sterility does not compromise the normal good and divine architecture of the heterosexual act, which is by function and origin ordered to life. For the sterile couple, it is not a state of rejoicing that they cannot conceive by means totally independent of their will. Any Catholic couple rejoicing in their sterility and enjoying the sexual embrace under the deliberate intent of a contraceptive mentality is sinning. No sexual act may deliberately close itself to life under pain of sin.

If what you said about Catholicism is true (i.e. that we arbitrarily discriminate against homosexuality merely because it is homosexuality and thus we are simply bigoted), then the Church would not teach any of the aforementioned provisions in unison with that one. I think you need to learn to see the relationship between ALL Catholic sexual teachings and taxonomize Catholic moral law correctly rather than jump to conclusions to support a politically correct agenda without knowing all the facts. I wonder, have you read the Catechism cover to cover? If you did, you may figure out very quickly that you did not indeed ever understand the world view you claim to have left because of its alleged bigotry.

The homosexual union in and of itself is an abomination before God because it violates natural law, deliberately defies procreation under all circumstances, and undermines the natural family while destroying fundamental tenets of sexual morality. There is no comparison whatsoever between the traditional family (father and mother) and the homosexual “family.” They are fundamentally different and diametrically opposed philosophically. This fact is obvious on its face. It is intellectually backward and sad that we actually have to debate this in our society. That such an issue has actually even come up for debate speaks volumes for our inability to use reason. Anybody who says that the homosexual union is the same as the heterosexual union needs a serious reality check.

Just like it is no coincidence that the Church teaches against homosexuality IN UNISON with all the other aforementioned doctrines about the dignity of the sexual embrace, it is no coincidence that the homosexual agenda almost always hops in the abortion, contraception, sterilization, and in-vitro fertilization bandwagon. One of us is in defense of the dignity of life under all circumstances (which by definition can compromise nowhere on this), the other is in defense of arbitrary pleasures and selfish acts independent of the consequences of their execution and God’s profound sexual economy, cheapening the dignity of the human person to mere animalism and destroying the selfless nature of the natural sexual act. Homosexual acts, as well as all other perversions of human sexuality, are evil and destructive to society as they undermine the moral foundation of sexual responsibility and continence.

No, there is a huge difference between the homosexual act and the homosexual person. One is a sin and the other is a person. The Church teaches that ALL persons have dignity and deserve respect. This is official Catholic teaching. No matter how bigoted people may want to think we are, it doesn’t change the fact that we indeed aren’t and have very good reasons to teach against this evil picture of sexuality. By your strange logic (that to preach against this sin is to be bigoted against the person), the Church also hates alcoholics, fornicators, and the like. Neither Jesus nor His Church has ever hated these people, but yes, Jesus and His Church will preach the truth about their actions so that they may be saved. How criminal and bigoted we are, willing the eternal salvation of others. Shame on us, right?

There is NO comparison between the Catholic Church’s teachings and what is happening in this video. Read the Catechism someday to find out why. You may be surprised to find nothing but pure reason, natural law, and beauty in that book that nobody seems to bother reading.

Couldn’t agree more, Matthew. All the more reason we need to continue to spread the truth in charity of what the true Christian Church, the Catholic Church, teaches on these matters. Keep up the good work!

Emma -

Actually ... the Church does teach that we (all of us, even the married) are to be chaste. (To quote Inigo Montoya, “I do not think that word means what you think it means.”) The Church does not teach that homosexuality is wrong, although homosexual acts are wrong, as is any other form of fornication. Also, the Church teaches that God loves all of us all of the time, including when we sin and including homosexuals.

Check out what the Church actually teaches, and what faithful Catholics actually believe and profess. And come home.

Bill

Matthew, they are going to think that no matter what.  If there are five examples in five million, they are going to exaggerate those five examples.  If there are none, they’ll move right on to folks like you.
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Emma: Okay, what about incest, if it’s all about consenting adults?  And why must it be limited to two? 
To be honest, sometimes I actually slightly look forward to the day when people will visibly squirm at the nonsense they have backed themselves into having to justify to remain consistent.

In my opinion, those who put out this video and taught this child to sing this song, are not Christians. They are just another example of what you get when groups of people form their own “churches,” based on their own interpretations of the bible and get it all wrong and try to pretend they are followers of Christ. Yes, these people are capturing their own sin on video.
For Emma and Carlotta, Ryan is correct. You were either not taught the Catholic faih or you did not pay attention, because your views are no more Catholic or Christian than those in the video. I can’t imagine you have experienced the grace and love and power the Lord will pour out upon you when receiving the Eucharist because no one who has, would ever walk away from that, especially for the reason to support others in their sin.
KC: all sin affects more than just the sinner. Look at our world. We are to admonish the sinner and instruct the ignorant. That too is part of ou job as confirmed Catholics. People will continue in sin unless their eyes are opened to it.
I do not believe that anyon who actually had read the bible and understood the words of scripture could believe that marriage AND sex was for anything other than one man and one woman or that children do not deserve a mother and a father.  It is hardening ones hearts to God and his words that makes everything else seem normal and God’s natural and moral laws seem abnormal.  Satan has been doing a very good job but in the end, each person will be standing alone, with their opinion and actions, before the Lord. That is what everyone should be meditating on.

Sadly, the “no true scotsman” arguement doesn’t really hold here. If a person says they are christian, they are.  They might not fit your description but that doesn’t matter to the public looking at this christian service.  The disagreements of what “christian” is as being Westboro Baptist church, Catholic, Mormon are endless. 

Life would be easier if I could say who is and isn’t something, but it isn’t that way.  You are judged by the company you keep and this kid is in your company.

I am for SSM and don’t give a darn about the “definition” of the word marriage.  People abused so a word can keep its definition? Incredible.

Emma,

If someone told you that heterosexuality was wrong, and that in order for god to love you you had to remain chaste forever and never have a fulfilling sexual relationship, are you telling me you wouldn’t think they were insane?

If you mean heterosexual ACTS, then that is exactly what the Church DOES tell us.  If a person is not married then heterosexual sex IS wrong.

Of course you also committed the very faux pas that Matthew’s whole post is about.  Neither heterosexuality nor homosexuality is morally wrong.  The ACT can be wrong.  The orientation cannot.  It’s fitting that you would so perfectly exemplify what Matthew is trying to say.

Lastly, God’s love does NOT depend on our behavior.  We are not good SO THAT God will love us.  We choose good BECAUSE God loves us.  His love does not change.  Ever.  In CHOOSING to commit immoral ACTS, We, not God, choose not to love.  Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the word love any more than you can differentiate between and action and a person.

Rover,

I find this to be the secular world’s modus operandi.  When you disagree with something, simply change the definition of it so that it will appear as if you agree.

You cannot kill a baby, but you can kill a fetus.  Christian means whatever you want it to mean, so I can continue to act in profoundly UNChristian ways and still claim to be a Christian.  If the Hippocratic oath rains on your parade, simply change it.  Constitution getting you down?  Ignore it.  Don’t like the definition of marriage?  Declare it unimportant and claim it means whatever you want it to mean.  Tolerance means tolerating everything as long as it doesn’t disagree with your own viewpoint.

At this rate it won’t be long til dictionaries become obsolete.

Thank you, Matthew for another great job. I didn’t watch that video, so I am taking your word for it. Those in that ‘church’ that agree with what that child was ‘singing’ will have even a lesser chance to get into Heaven, as they are condemning someone into hell. Those that misuse the word ‘GAY’ for such a horrible type of sin, is attacking normal people that have Gay in their name, and it should be stopped. Even the homosexuals use other terms that describe them much better. The wages of sin is death, and as Jesus said: “Let the dead bury the dead and come and follow Me”.  To be a Christian, one must follow Jesus, without looking back and to hold on to our cross very tightly. Birth-control is almost as hideous as the homosexual acts as it is denying a child of God to be born, which is a direct attack on His command to Adam and Eve: Gen. 1:28 (NAB) “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it”. Nothing about when you ‘feel’ that it is the right time; a good job, home, wealth, type of partners, etc.. LOVE THE SINNER; BUT, HATE THE SIN as GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED and His day is coming very soon, and despite the ‘rapture’ nonsense, it won’t be a very happy time for anybody.  +JMJ+

“Why so many Christians can’t separate a person’s sexual attraction (sexuality) from their sexual acts is beyond me. Being a homosexual does not put somebody in grave sin any more than being a heterosexual makes you a fornicator or an adulterer.”

Because many Christians, especially conservative Protestants, do not believe that heterosexuals, especially heterosexual men, are capable of controlling their sexual urges either.

A common theme is that marriage is the only acceptable outlet for the uncontrollable male sexual urge and, therefore, a wife has a duty to satisfy her husband, lest he satisfy his urges somewhere else.

Ryan, very well put!  However I believe it to be way over Emma’s head.  She won’t understand it and therefore will not pay any attention to it.  Or, more likely, pick it apart for sentences she does understand or piques interest and refute those.

What I hope she does understand out of all that you have said is that she doesn’t fully comprehend Catholic teaching, and the best way to understand it is to read the Catechism.  It’s what helped me come back to the Church. I started by reading the parts I thought were wrong about the Church.  When I learned the true position of the Church on those points (and the best part of why they take those positions), then I started reading the rest.  It really WAS an eye opener, I can tell you that.

“you had to remain chaste forever and never have a fulfilling sexual relationship”
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I hate to tell you, Emma, but many heterosexuals ARE called to never marry:  priests, nuns, as well as the growing number of singles who never marry.  The same rule applies for unmarried chastity whether you are gay or straight.
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“And here’s news, if you are heterosexual, yes you must stay chaste for life unless you are married God’s way.”
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And even those married within the Church are required to practice chastity.  They don’t have a carte blanche to have a sex free for all once they say their vows.  Married chastity includes not using artificial birth control methods as well as not using foreplay acts in place of intercourse, and may also be require periods of absolute abstinence. 
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Plus a “fulfilling sexual relationship” truly comes from following God’s laws instead of the mores of this increasingly porn obsessed culture.

Just to add to this discussion: we who want to serve and follow the Catholic Church with all our heart and conciousness, shall try to read the official docs. There’s one, a bit old if you want, but still totally applicable to these days:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

And it deserve to be mentioned: this document was released when our Pope Benedictus XVI was prefect of the congregation.

Hymns like this are sung only in Protestant churches where the pastor allows it, since Protestantism allows its congregations to make their own rules. This demonstrates the need for centralized Papal authority as we have in the Catholic Church. Any Catholic priest who burned a Quaran or allowed anti-gay hymns to be sung at mass would be disciplined, and Holy Mother Church is wise for doing so. Catholics should not self-identify using the term “Christian”, because it assumes we are on parity with 40,000 Protestant denominations in theological matters. This video proves we are not.

My regret is that Catholic Liberation Theologists have swung the pendulum too far the wrong way with rainbow masses at some parishes. These man-centered services celebrate the LGBT lifestyle in defiance of Christ’s teachings and his sacrifice on the altar. It is blasphemy.

Catholics should not self-identify using the term “Christian”, because it assumes we are on parity with 40,000 Protestant denominations in theological matters. This video proves we are not.

I dunno, Hat Lady.  Instead of letting those fundamentalist Protestant denominations claim the word “Christian,” we should be claiming it back:  Christianity is contingent on who we understand Jesus Christ to be—indeed, “who do you say that I AM?”  As per Ross Douthat and countless others of late, can those who worship a Christ made in their own image (whereby the Word of God is reduced to Scripture Alone and/or “What Would Jesus Do?” often means whatever sentimental thing we want it to mean just so long as it’s “nice” and “doesn’t hurt people’s feelings”) really be called “Christian,” anyway?

I have felt for too long that we (the believing catholics) have done a lousy job at distinquishing “sacremental” marriage from everything else.  The “word” battle was lost long ago when this word was highjacked by the civil unions of man & woman.  Now, fast forward to this same sex unification, a similar word battle exists. I would contend that an analogy is we can NOT create an “excemption” to the hetro couple who wishes to marry (2) people, just becase they love another and beleive that “consenting adultry” is okie dokie.  That violates the sacremental aspects of a marriage.  In the same vein, a gay couple forfeits the sacremenatl principals, even though their union may be out of love and they legally may claim civil unionship.  The time to clarify terms and meanings has never been more important.

This sort of singing is a deplorable over-reaction to the reality that the young boy will know doubt be taught in school about how to put a condom on and how to use a dental dam before he can even read his schools favorite book:  “Johnny Has Three Daddies and Janey has 5 Mommies.”  As to the lesbocracy and its condemnation of the Catholic Church, be aware that it is an act of homophobia if the faithful oppose spousal marriage benefits to feather the economic nests of gays and lesbians at the expense of the poor.

UGH!!!!  Thanks a lot fundies in the video.  Here is another that will be on the news in the morning.  No wonder there is this idea that Christians hate homosexuals.  There are sadly some who do and they make the rest of us look very, very bad because it is videos like this or the one in which the pastor is asking that the gays should be rounded up and shot or put into interment camps that will get the most publicity and will be used to shoot down any reasonable response to the moral evils of our day.

@Rover Serton:

The “no true Scotsman argument does not apply here” argument is trite and intellectually lazy. There are broad, objective criteria that constitute Christian teaching. If a certain sect or individual group of “Christians” does not meet those criteria, they are not Christians. One objective criterion is “Love thy neighbor.” Another is “judge not, let ye be judged.” If a purportedly Christian group does not believe either (and by belief I mean true belief, which requires at least an attempt to act), they are not Christians.

I have noticed a lot of people using an argument similar to this one (“if someone calls himself a Christian, he is a Christian and there is no need for further inquiry”). It is convenient because it allows people hostile to Christianity to learn absolutely nothing about Christianity and group together as Christians all types of nuts, bigots, etc. This allows for an easy propaganda target. But it is unreasonable to make a “guilt by association” argument where there are fundament differences in beliefs, since the only possible association we can have as Christians (or any members of any religion for that matter) is a common set of fundamental beliefs. Like I said, I understand the allure of the argument you made, but it is quite dull and lazy.

I agree with mk’s response to this -
“I am for SSM and don’t give a darn about the “definition” of the word marriage.  People abused so a word can keep its definition? Incredible.”
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First of all, define ‘abuse’!  Second, this only seems ‘incredible’ if you don’t think it is important that words mean anything intelligible, or that this has no greater implications for society.  We do not just mold language, language molds *us.*
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js85, thank you for articulating what I’ve been struggling to put my finger on.  A comparison between nationality, which we are all stuck with to some extent, and a system of beliefs and behavior falls utterly flat.

It is not up to the state to teach Catholic doctrine. To demand that civil law reflect one particular doctrine is to demand a theocracy.

@aktenny: bingo. And Catholics can shout “we’re not like those hateful Protestants” and “they’re wrong about Christianity, only we have it right” falls on deaf ears when you claim to love homosexuals but fail to support their quest for the same rights heterosexual couples enjoy under the law. Why do you care if gay couples are allowed to marry in civil ceremonies? It doesn’t affect your freedom to practice your religion in any way. The tide has turned on the gay rights issue, and the church is going to find itself on the wrong side of history.

Such good responses for Emma. Sad that it is very unlikely that Emma would read any of them. Most people who “used to be Catholic” don’t have the desire to learn the truth about the Church and they don’t want to put in the time to read these “hard” responses.  it’s too much work. Much easier to watch MTV, the latest garbage dvd that hollywood has churned out and watch the Daily Show tih Jon Stewart to find out what she should think about the Catholic Church.

I know I sound bitter, but I’m so weary of these types of remarks from people who know nothing about the Catholic Church.

To Renae:  Pope Benedict was just reminding Bishops what has always been the policy of the Church.  Bishops must never knowingly ordain homosexuals.  Are you not aware of the fact that while the John Jay study found that 98% of Catholic priests were not sexual deviants who molested others, of the 2% who were abusers, the majority of them were not pedophiles but were homosexuals who abused older boys.  So please, don’t be silly.  Homosexuality is not a healthy life for those who are so afflicted.  We must love them and help them cope with this abnormal sexual attraction.  When my husband and I studied for our health related professions 40 years ago, this was standard knowledge taught to all health professionals.  Since our days in academia, the American Psychological Association announced this wrong and declared homosexuality a normal life style.  We learned later that those in the leadership ranks of this organization at the time this was announced were mostly homosexuals.  So I still believe what I was taught many years ago.  Homosexuality is not normal and should not be granted that status.  But we must help homosexuals cope with this and grow holy by being taught the truth about their same sex attraction and the truth that they can lead holy, happy lives.  Just as priests and nuns and single people can be happy and holy in leading a celibate life, so can they.

This article attempts to portrait homosexuals as poor discriminated against individuals.  This is hardly the case today.  In fact it will be the church who will soon be the victim because current law in some states say that homosexuals can marry.  If the church refuses to grant homosexuals the Holy Sacrament of Marriage, the law will come down on the church for discrimination.  It has already happened in Massachusetts and Wash DC. Adoption Agencies were shut down because they refused to allow homosexuals to adopt children. There is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that gives homosexuality a pass. In fact God, Jesus Christ and St Paul condemn homosexuality and they state, “They will not enter heaven unless they repent and convert.” This is God saying this, not a Protestant Evangelical. You can justify homosexuality all day long but you can’t trump the word of God.

With a world population ratio of approximately 1:3 Christians to non- Christians many people do not even believe in sin. Many people, including Christians, likely go to eternity guilty of various sins, not just one particular sin, mortal and venial, for which they must answer to GOD. The key word regarding any sinner no matter the number of sins is REPENTANT.No UNREPENTANT sinner goes to Heaven. As JESUS said,“Repent or you will all perish”. Perish meaning “live in hell”.

added comment. JESUS said “Repent or you will all perish”. This is spoken as a matter of TRUTH and LOVE not vindicativeness from GOD. “GOD is long-suffering not wanting that any should perish but that all should turn to REPENTANCE”. “Seek first the kingdom of Heaven”. Seek the Light of GOD not the darkness and emptiness of sin. This is what the great saints learned. Some seeking JESUS at a very early age for all of their lives and others only after REPENTANCE from living a life of sinful worldly pleasures.Some sinners do not repent until their last moments on earth and some sinners do not repent at all; but only GOD can judge a soul with perfect JUSTICE.

would that the shepherds of the Catholic Church acted like John The Baptist and would call sinful lifestyles for what they are…today the Shepherds as they have for decades..scared of the feminists and now the homosexual..so frightened to call out sin for what it is….same sex attraction is nothing but a farce, inspired by Satan, to drag souls into eternal damnation with him…God did not create you to have same-sex attraction…that would be creating evil….you freely choose to live the live of sin you choose…as the Church has taught for centuries, YOU ARE NOT TO BE INVOLVED IN OCCASIONS OF SIN…if i watched porn all day and had naked pictures all over the walls..but didnt masturbate to them, i would still be culpable of MORTAL SIN…so likewise you samesex deviates are throwing yourselves into hell…but we love each other you say, i say, YOU LOVE SIN ...just like the birth control taking and abortion advocates…YOU ALL LOVE SIN, NOT JUST ANY SIN BUT SIN CAPABLE OF PUTTING YOU IN HELL FOREVER….SHOW REPENTANCE YOU PUSHES OF FILTH AND REMOVE YOURSELVES FROM OCCASIONS OF SIN…and if you dont please leave THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and start your own church inspired by satan and and the impure lifestyles he inspires you with

GREAT POST Ryan!!!!!!!

Ryan,
You indeed make a fine theoretical case that Catholics have a more tolerant and nuanced understanding of homosexuality than the truly embarassing fundamentalists you rail against. You cry foul that the secular west unfairly lumps Catholics in with these hateful and ignorant people. However, simply reading the comments here from your fellow Catholics shows why the secular west isn’t mistaken. There’s little need to claim “guilt by association” when we can plainly read the words of faithful Catholics right here, and they’re not pretty.

@Zeke: “You indeed make a fine theoretical case that Catholics have a more tolerant and nuanced understanding of homosexuality than the truly embarassing fundamentalists you rail against . . . . However, simply reading the comments . . . “

You miss the point of Ryan’s (and the topic blog’s) argument by equating “Catholic teaching” with “comments made by individual Catholics.” The two are not necessarily the same. Some Catholics have an unfortunate tendency to misunderstand or ignore Catholic teaching because of their own predispositions or prejudices. Your argument is simply another iteration of equating fundamentalist Christian ideas with Catholic ones, i.e. equating misunderstanding or ignorance of Catholic teaching by some Catholics with the true teachings of the Church.

@KC “I really wish you wouldn’t have used ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ as a metaphor in this story. Why? Because Fundamentalists use it all TOO often to condemn anything and everyone who disagrees with them.”  I agree with this statement.,,,,,,, Just recently a new friend, who belongs to a fundamentalist church, said to me and I quote “Oh, I like Catholic people, I just don’t like the Catholic Church”...immediately the thought came in my head: “oh I like gay people, I just don’t like their lifestyle”  I truly felt hurt by her remark, I did not like it at all. To me, if she hates my Church, she must hate me as my Church is a part of me.  I do believe marriage is between a man & woman as it supports the concept of family…..but I do believe if Gays are in a relationship [which is their business, not mine] that they should have the same civil rights as any married couple., in other words, civil unions.  As KC said God will be the judge, not I.
@Ryan: I understand everything you said but: I feel the Catholic Church should study “why” some people have a different sexual attraction. ‘Sexual attraction’ was given to us by God & I understand why, but again why are some born ‘differently attracted’ and why are some born with down syndrome and why are some born mentally disabled, or mentally sick [like schizophrenia or bi-polar] or with half a limb? etc.  I know one gay man who said “if I had a choice I would not be homosexual, because society does not approve of it, but I am and I know it” This from a well education person. I knew a gay priest, who was crucified by some charismatics, who ended up leaving the priesthood and committing suicide.  (I also have to mention that I feel that some of the bloggers on this site are very un-christian & un-Catholic in their writings.) Holier Than Thou. 

Sue,
I admire your willingness to state your support for the rights of people created by God inherently attracted to the same sex, who are no more able to change that than someone born with half a limb is able to grow it back.  You are an inspiration to me (non-Catholic) and should inspire fellow Catholics, yet we both know that you are about to receive numerous comments declaring that you are mistaken about what God wants, Church teachings, and thus are not worthy of calling yourself Catholic. Which is tragic, because I believe that Jesus felt the same as you.

It is not understood what Renae means when he pleads for homosexuals to become priests   Who is a heterosexual ? One who believes that marriage is between a man and a woman and their togetherness must bring forth new life.  What is a homosexual ? He wants that sex acts can be with another man Is it so ? If so his thinking is against the Church teachings. Taking for granted that homosexuals have attraction towards the same sex, it can be argued that heterosexuals have attraction towards the opposite sex. Attractions do not justify breach of commandment on sexual morality The attractions have to be controlled to have a chaste life. Is their any difference in this regard in the two categories ? Then why so much talk over homosexuals? and that too to priethood ?

@Sue (old) - do you really think that no one in 2,000 of Catholic Christian history has considered why birth defects and etc. happen? It’s because we live in a fallen world. That’s why same-sex attraction, alcoholism, cancer, etc. exist because of the Fall. Prior to that, everything was ORDERED toward good, but the afflictions above are DISordered. They were not in God’s original plan, but when original sin occured, those afflictions came into the world as a consequence. God permits them due to our free will, but does not directly will them.
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Zeke - by what authority do you declare that you know what Jesus felt? To my knowledge, the only entity to which he gave that authority was the Catholic Church.

Matt, You are promoting the distortion just by posting this. Didn’t bother to watch it. It’s bad enough seeing the mainstream news media put Christians in a bad light by finding some Christian and bait them to sin to pummel the faith. It’s worse when you do it. If you know the little boy or any of the people involved speak to them.  No need to spread this type of thing.  You aren’t working for God doing that.  And again, most people with same sex attraction are not born that way.  So many are groomed or stereotyped or have their failings used as tools of coercion or are suffering from traumas.  It(the seeking of converts to the lifestyle) is a very nasty sin and is nothing to take lightly.

Leviticus 20:13 ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.’
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Nuff said, these deviants need to be put to the sword. Especially now that we have it on Pam’s word that most of these freaks are not born this way, they choose it. Must be the discrimination, social stigmatization, intolerance, denial of civil rights, and the cool songs kids sing about you in some Christian churches that makes it an appealing lifestyle choice.

Zeke,

Perhaps we should emulate your own style of criticism?  That would be much more palatable?  Telling people how rude they are by being rude is sort of counterproductive, doncha think?

I see so many posts on here with the usual lack of understanding 1. Of sexuality as a precious gift which needs tender care, watering and planting like the most delicate plants and flowers. 2. Of love- it is the only one of the three theological gifts that makes it to heaven with us, AND the only one we need to get in there. I Cor 13 and Mt 25- what you did to or did not do to ME as in Other Divine Icons you do to me. MESSING with either one with no conversion brings its own hell here and hereafter.

Wsquared: The Catholic Church has the unique identity as the One True Holy and Apostalic Church. There is no need to re-claim itself under the now-diluted term “Christian” church.

I urge people, no matter how much you might object to the idea of civil-unions for homosexuals to consider the idea that the more you invoke the power of the State to enforce your belief, the easier you make it for the other side to use the power of the State to force THEIR beliefs on to you.  The most recent example of this is the idea that we should all have to pay for other people’s birth control.

I support the right of the Catholic Church and all the organizations AND INDIVIDUALS who oppose it to refuse to provide birth control.  It doesn’t matter if I agree 100% with church doctrine, but that I believe in liberty.  And embracing liberty, I automatically recognize the right to conscience. 

Support people in freedom and you deny the State the opportunity to deny YOU freedom.  Recognize that every attempt you make to use your religious and philosophical beliefs as the source for public policy (having nothing to do with protecting life, liberty, and property)you are making it clear that you believe it IS the role of government to dictate to people how they must live.  This is how the Nanny State was born, and this is where the contraception mandate in Obamacare came about. 

@Lizzie:  “no matter how much you might object to the idea of civil-unions for homosexuals to consider the idea that the more you invoke the power of the State to enforce your belief, the easier you make it for the other side to use the power of the State to force THEIR beliefs on to you.”  [I wrote something before Lizzie said the above, but I hit the wrong button and it was erased.] I had said that if the Church does not accept civil unions then fine, gays don’t have to belong the the Catholic Church and most don’t and because they are so unacceptable to so many different Christian Churches, they fight back & this is why they now demand Marriage instead of Civil Union.  They are fighting for what they think is their right as citizens of this country. How awful it must be not to be accepted by the society you live in. It does not matter how I or anyone else feels about the gay/lesbian community, they have their rights too. It does not affect my beliefs in the Catholic Church. The woman I know who came from 90% Catholic Argentina does not like the C.C. and stated “I hate the Pope” with such vengeance, and it had something to do with the State running the CC at that time. I had 3 Protestant friends for lunch recently and the one girl said “Grace”. Lo and behold it was the Catholic Grace and I asked her if she was Catholic and she said once I was, but I have a good reason for leaving. Well, that was her prerogative and it is between her and God, not me. I still think it is rather pompous to say “I like gays, but I don’t like their lifestyle” ....the same as that woman saying to me “I like Catholics, I just don’t like their beliefs” [she did and said other things with hate in her heart] You all know that some Muslims are trying to make sharia law acceptable in this country…..wonder how that will fit in.

I find the secular response to this video disingenuous. Secularists love to find any reason or example to hate on Christianity. That’s what the responses to this video are about, more than anything else. As if it is some kind of surprise that there are bigoted Christians in the world. As with everything “trending” these days, a mountain from a mole hill. These same secularists are mute when videos surface of little Muslim kids singing about hating and killing Jews. There are plenty of these videos around but it’s no fun for them to beat up on Islam—infringes on their tolerance and multiculturalism badges.

I’m with commenter Vance.

Also, Matt, is this video worse than the SSA out in SF who posed for a *Last Supper* photo with leather things all over the table?  There are the “Rainbow sash” folks—imagine stealing God’s own bow of a sacred Covenant!  And the guys who dress *up* like nuns and go up to receive our Lord.  You know what?  People don’t forget these things.  We wonder why Prots can rip up so bad on SSA?  They do love Jesus.  As a lifelong Catholic, I know the video is a wrong thing to do, and I haven’t even seen it.  But it doesn’t compare to the filth from homosexuals infecting this nation, and it doesn’t make me pity the SSAs at all.  Everyone is encouraged to “come out.”  Well, sometimes, this is what greets that.

@Carol O: Just because some priests are pedophiles, does that mean that all priests are? Just because some gays act like ignorant jerks, does that mean that all of them act that way?  Lets face it, anything will happen in San Fran with a Catholic Politician like Pelosi, who basically does the same thing. She is pro-choice and still goes to Communion. My new friend who adamantly told me how much she loves Jesus and Jesus is truly in her heart, in the next sentence she is telling me how much she hates the Pope and Catholic religion. I just don’t get all this hate. Remember the greatest of all God’s Gifts is Love!

Pray for this child and the “adults” who staged him. Pointing out the sins of others is counterproductive to our own struggle against sin.  I accept the teaching of the Catholic Church although I don’t always understand it. I pray for discernment so I can be useful to Jesus.

Carol O—you obviously have no concept of the struggle those of us with SSA issues have had to deal with or you would spend less time being “disgusted” and more time praying for us.

Do I condemn the things you mentioned? Yes. But your attitude, summed up in your last sentence “well, sometimes, this is what greets that,” betrays a possible contempt towards those of us with that particular struggle.  I pray I am reading you wrong in that. Perhaps I am.

I lived as an LGBT activist for 15 years before returning to the Church, and live a celibate life now in obedience to the teachings of Christ through Rome—BUT—I seriously understand how much in-depth pain my LGBT brothers and sisters are in.  We do not need to excuse other’s behavior, nor should we, but we do need to understand and care.

Perhaps you do, but your comment hides that point well. The most unkind and hateful people I encountered, and still do, are “Christians.” It is no wonder so many of those actively in LGBT lifestyles reject the Church. We should not give them additional reasons to do so.

The question behind this story is, ” are homosexual acts really unnatural if you were born a Homosexual?  Contrary to the Church’s teachings on the matter, if you are born Homosexual, than those acts are “Natural” for YOU!
The Church ignores the obvious answer because if God made people GAY,that would not “fit” into the Church’s teachings, and we know the Church has NEVER been wrong about anything!

JennieP: Right on Jen…lets pray for this little boy who is being taught by a Christian church to ‘hate’. How sad…and yet on this blog there is ‘hate’ for homosexuals and from some so-called good Catholic Christians…how sad again. CAROL O; made a mean, untrue statement directed at the gay community and yet Richard G. Evans [who said he was gay] replied politely & honestly. I personally know a few gays, two being related to me. They are the most generous and loving people I know and so are their gay friends.[one nephew having gone through Catholic grade school, H.S. and Catholic college] So he knows all about Catholic teaching on the subject but still knows he is gay, even though not accepted by society.  I will not judge them [Christ said “don’t take the splinter out of someone’s eye until you take it out of yours first”] All these heterosexual’s seem to think they know all abt. the gay lifestyle, just because a few ‘act up in public’.
People in this world do a lot worse than living the gay lifestyle. This whole blog is about their sex act…and maybe it is a good thing to have it out in the open so that some of our so called practicing-good Catholics will learn something about the lives of other people than just their own. It is a troublesome and sometimes mean world we live in and yes JOANNA I know all about the FALL. I am an 85 yr. old grandmother and I have been through a lot more than most on this blog. My oldest sister was mentally challenged and I know how she and our family were discriminated against by some “good Catholics” in our Church and yes, there were a few who were nice to her. She was my love, my oldest sister who fed me while my Mom fed my twin. Dig deep enough in all of your families and you will find a gay person or someone with a physical or mental disability.  Read again RICHARD EVAN’S comment and try to understand what life is all about.  I COMMEND YOU RICHARD & ZEKE!

in scripture it says sodom and gomorrah were DESTROYED because of homosexuality…it says also in scripture that homosexual sex IS UNNATURAL, AGAINST NATURE….in ST. PAUL ROMANS….it says GOD left them to their pervision and death….NOW WHO AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE ...YOU KINDHEARTED PEOPLE LEAVING THESE PEOPLE IN THEIR SINFUL LIFESTYLE, OR BELIEVE THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE….....OUR LADY OF FATIMA SAID..“MORE SOULS GO TO HELL FOR SINS OF THE FLESH THAN ANY OTHER SIN”...homosexuality is clearly CONDEMNED in scripture, so GOD COULDNT HAVE CREATED YOU AS HOMOSEXUALS, THEREBY CONTRADICTING HIS OWN INSPIRED WORDS….

@Matt Warner: Sadly, predictably, you can read for yourself what fellow Catholics feel about homosexuality. Wouldn’t calling some of these bigots out help to foster greater understanding of the true Church position? Why the silence?

People who have a sickness need healing. We don’t hate people who are sick but with love, help them get healed.  If a person has a flu, you don’t encourage the person to make the flu worse.  This what we are doing when we justify homosexuality as something to accept.  Some people have over come their homosexual sickness via lots of prayer and spiritual and mental exercise. It can happen if the desire and effort is there. It won’t happen if a person is surrounded by people telling him not to change, you are OK.

robert waligora: You sound like my baptist friend who hates the Pope,the CC & quoting scripture that proves we are idol worshipers ...“so GOD COULDNT HAVE CREATED YOU AS HOMOSEXUALS, THEREBY CONTRADICTING HIS OWN INSPIRED WORDS”….. you are contradicting JO-ANNA who said it is about the FALL OF ADAM & EVE. 
@Vance: Maybe if the people of our Church were more loving and not like some on this blog and most other Christians who hate homosexuals and are very verbal about it, they [homosexuals] would be more influenced in accepting a change in their lifestyle, as Zeke did. Psychologically, when people keep telling you that you are abnormal, ugly and committing sin, etc., they turn against these kinds of people and organizations and go in the opposite direction.

old sue ...i am a ROMAN CATHOLIC..not one who has been brainwashed by the liberal media and the liberals in the church….i dont condemn the homosexual, the HOLY BIBLE does…DO YOU SAY THE WORDS OF THE BLESSED MOTHER AT FATIMA ARE HARSH TOO?????????..AFTER ALL OUR LADY DIDNT HESITANT TO SHOW THE LITTLE CHILDREN THE VISION OF HELL…..

Thank you for proffering a gracious way out, Richard, but what I have said, I have said.  The battle has been brought to me and mine—as Catholic, as American, as woman; I can either speak to it all honestly, or I can lukewarm my way through life, easing man but risking God’s spit.

Zeke - there is no reason for the silence other than I don’t always have time to jump into every conversation I’d like to. But I appreciate all the comments here and the discussion.

I commend Richard Evans for his witness and charitable contribution here. I think his words are the most powerful on this entire page.

I’m saddened by the many angry comments who seemed to have missed the point of the post. And who seem to lack the humility to admit that sometimes we (including ourselves) have not always acted as charitably as we should have. We sometimes feel that since somebody is a sinner or does something wrong that that gives us the right to treat them poorly. It doesn’t. And it ends up making the problem worse.

I’d also say, however, that you can’t judge a community (or even the post) by a few angry blog comments. Unfortunately, most of the people you all are impacting are silently reading along (without saying anything). So you are making impressions on them, too - good and bad. But most people do not comment (about 99% of readers do not comment). And those who do comment are certainly not representative of the other 99%. So it’s unfair, just as it’s unfair any time, to generalize a whole group of people (Catholics or whoever) based upon the comments here.

One last comment - Zeke, I think you are wrong when you say “Why do you care if gay couples are allowed to marry in civil ceremonies? It doesn’t affect your freedom to practice your religion in any way. The tide has turned on the gay rights issue, and the church is going to find itself on the wrong side of history.”

It’s a very selfish thing to only oppose laws only because they affect your own rights. We should support and oppose laws because they are either Good or Bad in themselves and because they are either Good for people or Bad for people. Supporting same-sex unions that actively promote, legitimize and practice a homosexual *lifestyle* is not good for anyone. And the Church will certainly be on the right side of that one when it’s all said and done.

We just need to find loving ways to express what we believe to be good for people. And love them through the process.

@robert waligora:  I am also a ROMAN CATHOLIC and I have not been brainwashed by the media or Catholic liberals. I have full understanding of what the Church teaches. My problem is that most of the people on this blog are very hateful in their comments about homosexuals and as a Catholic, I disagree with that. As Catholics we have been instructed to treat homosexuals with dignity and respect and that being attracted to the same sex is not sinful in itself. As to what they do in “acting” on being a homosexual, that is not our sin but theirs and again we should be respectful and pray for them instead of making them feel like some horrible sinful person. Is it no wonder they hate the Christian churches. As my Mom used to say “forget the vinegar, a little honey goes a long way.” Remember that the greatest of all God’s gifts is LOVE.  Someone on this blog said, we should help them in their ‘actions’, how can we if we are forever being un-Christian.

As a gay Christian (non-Catholic) who often disagrees with your columns but appreciates your thoughtfulness, all I can say is “thank you!”

If a person with SSA decides to “come out”, instead of struggling alone, the LGBT community will welcome them with open arms, as long as they embrace the gay lifestyle. The Christian community, whether they live celibately or not, will tend to treat them like @robert waligora or @CarolO or like the people in the video above. It doesn’t matter to them how someone with SSA lives - they treat the disorder itself as a sin.

People with SSA who want to live according to the Catholic Church’s teachings should be welcomed with open arms. We learned to do that with mothers who had abortions, with people who worked in abortion clinics, with abortionists themselves. One of our big threats to PP and pro-abortion activists is that they know that every one who works in an abortion clinic, every woman who gets an abortion, knows that if they repent, they can come back at any time and find forgiveness and healing and help.

Why can’t we do that when people with SSA reach out to us? Shouldn’t they find a safe harbor with us when they “come out,” instead of ending up fighting both the gay lifestyle AND Christians who blame them for their crosses?

Mdhoerr,  The catholic Church does not condemn anyone. It believes that anyone who repents about his wrong life can come back and there will be joy. There is no fight against gays and lesbians. These styles are just for “plesures” which every human may get attracted at certain young age Those who believe in the Church teachings will try to control wrong urges and those who fall will later repent. The problem is only with those who projects that gay and lesbian life styles are normal and should be legalized. That is not admissible to thinking individuals and to those who have christian faith

@KC I agree with you. My point was just that we should have the same kind of outreach to people with SSA that we have to post-abortive women and abortion clinic workers. Right now, those people know that if they repent, they’ll be welcomed back.

Unfortunately, because of the way some Christians, including some Catholics, continue to confuse the disposition with the sin, that doesn’t happen for people with SSA who want to repent and come back, or those with SSA who don’t even have anything to repent because they’ve been chaste all along, and just don’t want to have to hide their battles.

@mdhoerr: I wish people would really listen to what you are saying. Regardless of what the Church teaches about being charitable and reaching out to “sinners”, Christians on the whole are still verbal in their contempt for SSA’s and calling forth their sin. When that woman told me to my face, in my home, that she hated the CC and the Pope, she was trying at the same time to get me to go to her bible classes at her home. She even had her church send me an invitation. If she thinks she could get me to join her bible study class or church by putting my beliefs down (like, we are idol worshipers, etc.) she is mistaken. Can’t the people on this blog realize that by continually running the homosexual person/lifestyle down, you are just driving them away. It really is that simple. Read Matthew Warner’s blog above.

Jesus is the HOLY ONE who died for ALL the sins of humanity.  No one is perfect, we all sin.  The sin of disordered homosexual ACTS is the basis of this article. GOD forgives anyone who repents of their sins….repent means change of heart and change of life.  Jesus also is MERCY.  His greatest attribute, His call to us also is to be merciful.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church has the best answer….thank you for printing the CCC paragraphs in this article….otherwise many people would never read them because they don’t have their own copy of the Catechism.  Go out and get one and read it cover to cover.  Jesus I trust in You.  Pax,

A homosexual Catholic (or Jew or Muslim) is in a horrible dilemma because he/she must either hate and punish him/herself by either being celibate or having sex without love. OR-they must leave their faith (if they can without being killed) Homesexuality is not a choice—if you believe in God as the creator, we are all what we are supposed to be.
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You don’t make it harder to be homosexual, only harder to be a Catholic. No wonder more people are leaving the Church.

Christine - this is fallacious logic. Leading a chaste (including celibate) life is not punishment at all. All you have to do is meet somebody living such a life well. There are lots of them. Lots and lots of them. The ones I’ve met in my life are some of the most joyful inspirational and peaceful people I’ve ever met.

Christine: Yes, we are what we are supposed to be, but not what you think we are supposed to be. If a person have a same sex attraction you’d call him homosexual. But if he had attractions to little boys instead you would call him a monster. Was this person supposed to be a monster? How is this person’s cross different from the cross that a person with SSA bear. “I was born this way” is a sad argument. You need to get your head out of the pop culture conventional wisdom. As for “making it harder to be Catholic” people started leaving the Church when we lowered the bar.

@robert waligora: “in scripture it says sodom and gomorrah were DESTROYED because of homosexuality”

## Reference please ? (hint: not in Genesis 19, Romans 1, Isaiah 1, Ezekiel 16, Leviticus 18 or 20, Revelation, I Corinthians 6, Wisdom 13,...etc.)

Ryan, thanks for your thoughtful response (there have been others too, but I appreciate Ryan’s thoroughness). I was nodding along vigorously, and hoping that Emma was reading too, until this paragraph:

There is no comparison whatsoever between the traditional family (father and mother) and the homosexual “family.” They are fundamentally different and diametrically opposed philosophically. This fact is obvious on its face. It is intellectually backward and sad that we actually have to debate this in our society. That such an issue has actually even come up for debate speaks volumes for our inability to use reason. Anybody who says that the homosexual union is the same as the heterosexual union needs a serious reality check.

While most of your response relies on logic, I feel as though this paragraph and some of what follows it is unsupported assertion. Separating the procreative from the unitive, as gay marriage does, runs counter to our sacramental understanding of what marriage is. The completeness of the union between husband and wife, in both the procreative and unitive sense, is what makes it a marriage. Therefore, as gay marriages do not allow this dual expression of self-giving, they are qualitatively distinct from sacramental Catholic marriages.

However, I don’t think it follows—and I don’t think that it is appropriate—to then take aim at purely the unitive aspect of homosexual relationships. When a lesbian couple agrees to share the rest of their lives together (whether or not that promise is sealed by a ceremony, and whether or not that ceremony is called a marriage), it’s hard to see how their actions are “diametrically opposed” to traditional marriage. In most ways, their relationship is similar to traditional marriage. It is emulative of the married lifestyle, not dismissive of it.

The procreative and emotional consequences of the gift of sexuality indicate that sexual intimacy should only be shared with one’s spouse, but God calls all of us to nurture loving relationships with individuals of both sexes. [See non-existent sidebar on the different types of love.] In terms of its stewardship of the procreative power, a committed same-sex relationship is problematic and, to the best of our understanding, sinful. Still, taken in isolation (as in a traditional marriage it would not have to be), I believe that the unitive aspect of the relationship can be an authentic good. It’s still a relationship that God can work wonders with.

First of all I want to thank you Matt for your kind words about my earlier comment, which I did not even see until tonight for some reason, almost a month after the fact! But kindness is kindness and I truly thank you. It means much to me truly.

Second, as to the comments by Chris above, what keeps me Catholic instead of going out and finding another “Christian” group who affirms all of my SSA desires is the Sacraments of the Church—including marriage, even though I am no longer a married person. Why?

Because your sacramental explanation of marriage as such is clear to me—now. At one time in my life I was very blinded to that unfortunately. Perhaps if I had been in a fully sacramental marriage (mine was for 12 years but outside of the Church) or if I had realized that the struggle I had with SSA feelings was not a sin but a cross, I might have obtained the graces needed within that marriage and fought it through. I have been divorced over 20 years, back in the Church for 7, and still wish I had done so. But I cannot relive the past.  What I do know, though, is that the Eucharist and Reconciliation are vital to my life now. And they cause me to desire the gifts of Catholicism and basically remain content with being single.

Do I ever wish I had someone to snuggle with at night?  Yes, but not during this heat wave lol. Seriously, of course I do, but celibacy is a small price to pay for living within the guidelines of the Sacraments. And it is, in fact, a gift in so many ways I would not have guessed a few years ago.

If you notice, those who try to have it both ways (the Sacraments and an active LGBT lifestyle) are never content—and never will be. Why?  Because of supposed “rights?” I think not—I believe something speaks far deeper within each of us, telling us, if we listen, that there is something better—better than redefining marriage, better than being our own hierarchy, and better than a life of rebellion.

That is what keeps me within the Church—and believe me at moments while screaming and kicking a bit—but I need to live within the reality of all seven Sacraments. And the gift of a sacramental union is only between a man and a woman as you rightly pointed out. People say that Jesus was silent on homosexuality—if so, His silence was deafening.  When He was asked about divorce, and if it was ever allowed “for any reason” such as so many today believe as well, His answer was to point to the utter sacredness of the permanent union of Adam and Eve—body, mind, and soul—and no LGBT “union” can do more than vaguely imitate that. Or at least do so only partially. 

Chris I think you are very insightful to realize that there are many forms of love—but one danger I might mention of an exclusive and all-encompassing permanent relationship between same-gender attracted folks such as myself (even if non-sexual)is that it can prevent the “disinterested friendships” which we all need.

In that sense it can become a form of co-dependency instead of mutual giving. It is probably far healthier for any of us who are single, SSA or otherwise, to have 2-3 close friends and then a variety of other people who we love on various levels, which gives us the opportunity to fully accept our gift of singleness, whether temporary or permanent. Then there is no danger of one “friendship” beginning to emulate a marriage, which, as you rightly said, it is not. It is not easy but it can be done. And joyfully.  The Eucharist,received in grace, is worth it.

The video is no longer on youtube.  It says that it was taken down because of the content.  Which is a good thing.  now if they would clean up the rest it would be great.

  I apologise, but, in my opinion, you are mistaken. Let’s discuss. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

P.S. What do you think about Windows 2012?